1990-02-22 SP 136 s g
SPECIAL ,TOWN BOARD MEETING
FEBRUARY 22 , 1990
7 : 00 p.m.
TOWN BOARD MEMBERS
Stephen Borgos-Supervisor .
Marilyn Potenza-Councilman
Ronald Montesi-Councilman
Betty Monahan-Councilman
Paul Dusek-Town Attorney
GUESTS : Representatives of West Mt . PUD, Officials from
the Town of Lake Luzerne Supervisor Victor Grant,
Councilmen, Thomas Diehl , Bob Livingston
Supervisor Borgos-Opened the Meeting . . . Called for the
purpose of trying to complete the West Mt . Agreement . I
am not aware of any other issues to be brought before the
group, I will say this about the pressing issue of the
landfill situation. Mr . Dusek and I have been in
communication and Mr . Dusek has done quite a bit of work on
this today, I hope to have more discussions tomorrow and
over the weekend and probably Monday night with some luck
we will be able to bring some information to the attention
of the Town Board. We are very well aware of the problem
as you all are and we are trying to have a proposal for
you, right now we are short on facts and information.
Attorney Krogmann-The only thing that I can add to that is
that Tom Lawson ' s Office is organizing a meeting as we
had in the past, of all the Attornies and Supervisors .
Supervisor Borgos-The Supervisor' s will be invited?
Attorney Krogmann=That is what I understand .
Supervisor Borgos-I was not invited the last time . I would
be happy to attend such as meeting as soon as possible .
Thank you.
It has been only eight days since we have been together.
Councilman Potenza-Councilwomen Monahan and myself just
came back from the Association of Towns and our Governor
Cuomo has proposed 1 . 9 billion dollar bond issue and out
of that 1 . 9 billion dollar bond issue he is proposing a
billion dollars for land acquisition of which the largest
percentage of that would go for acquisition of Adirondack
Park Lands, it was a very vocal verbal debate out of this
1 . 9 , 2 hundred million was to go for landfill . . .
Supervisor Borgos-The rest to buy more land that we cannot
use , and trees we cannot cut for the wood we need .
Councilman Potenza-For' the knowledge of the Press if you
want to hop on the band wagon really stir the public up
this is a very, very hot issue .
Supervisor Borgos-I hate to delay the West Mt . meeting
here but it has come to everyone ' s attention up here that
the lower part of the State is anxious to see that done ,
is that the feeling you got —to see the bond act go
though and buy the land?
Councilman Potenza-No, unfortunately the resolution stated
that at least half of this 1 . 9 billion dollars would go
for landfill closure and that resolution passed. The
majority of the representatives were afraid to leave that
session without some sort of landfill proposal . So
basically it is half of 1 . 9 or it is nothing, we have no
other option. One of the proposals is that he is going to
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put a $2 . 00 tax on tires , and the guestimate on the tax
would be somewheres around. 8 million dollars that would be
the income into the State . If I remember correctly we had
a guestimate of closing the , just the Queensbury landfill
for somewheres around 9 million, so I wanted to go on
record of wanting all of that tax money for the Town of
Queensbury but they would not recognize it . In any event
its garbage, it is all they talked about . . .
Supervisor Borgos-I am pleased that there is some support
around the state . Asked the Town Attorney where he would
like to start .
Attorney Dusek-I think that at the last session I had
mentioned to the Board the two major issues that I had
-- seen in the agreement . There has been a number of other
changes that have been placed into the agreement I think
that the Board could probably start at this point wherever
they feel most comfortable , going directly through the
agreement , each underlined part or whoever you wish to
proceed, Mr. Supervisor .
Attorney Krogmann-Could I just ask to go back to those two
issues for a second. I think that the language that we
conferred about regarding phasing, everyone found
satisfactory was circulated via fax or some other fancy
mechanism. I am not sure in reviewing my notes for the
meeting where we left the fire station issue . My notes
seem to tell me that I think there was a consensus that
where ever the development began first that is where the
station would be located , but I just wanted to make sure
that is what . . .
Supervisor Borgos-I think you are probably right, my
personal feeling and I will jump in at this point I have
been kind of deeply involved in this , personal feeling is
that obviously the reason that we believe that the fire
station should be in Queensbury was that the developer
proposed the development that would begin in Queensbury
with hotels and funicular transport system with a down
town development and some housing and it seemed
appropriate and absolutely essential that fire station be
provided. At sometime in the future the agreement that we
approved said that if in the future Luzerne build out
comes about and they need a station by all means the
developer would provide that. So, that is in the
agreement . What we heard the last time was the developer
saying that they would like the option to be able to start
in a different phasing sequence . At that point it was my
position that if that were to happen certainly there is
no development in Queensbury a fire station could go in
Luzerne . I think, that that language is already built
into this agreement . It would seem probably, again
without trying to play the consultant here, probably
appropriate that you would be thinking in terms of a
satellite station than a full blown station if you were
looking at subdivision of a couple of hundred houses , it
would not seem essential to have a tower or a whole bunch
of other kind of things . Again, I believe that is already
in the agreement, that says if the need arises in the Town
of Lake Luzerne the developer will provide the station and
equipment in accordance with the recommendations of a
group of the Town the Developer and the consultant . I am
not sure what page that is on but that is there .
Supervisor Victor Grant-I should know Steve , you and I
disagreed on that , that you feel that the main fire
project should be in the Town of Lake Luzerne on that
mountain side and the reason that I gave was primarily the
safety factor of a winter storm at the time of an accident
that may occur on top of the mountain that we would have
direct access to the accident site and it could be a
delayment for the Queensbury side because of the Hartman
Hill situation. Even though that may only happen once in
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a lifetime that may be a very, very important time .
Second of all it would strenghten the ties for fire
protection in the Town of Lake Luzerne by having a so
called main facility on the mountain side where it could
also possibly be involved in the Hartman Hill area and the
Call Street area where we are now approximately ten or
twelve miles from. So , I feel that, first of all I really
feel that one, one major fire house could man that
complete mountain site and that if the proper equipment
was put on the mountain that it should be on the Luzerne
side . I feel very, very strong on that proposal .
Supervisor Borgos-I feel badly that we ' ve gotten this far
without having heard earlier about this subject it has
obviously been mentioned right from day one we did speak
with the developers about it and we talked .
Supervisor Grant-At the very very early phase of the
development the fire house was in the Lake Luzerne side
and not in the Queensbury side .
Supervisor Borgos-The only time it was ever in Lake
Luzerne side to my knowledge was on one slide that was
shown at a meeting and I brought it to the attention of
the developer that they had inadvertantly put it on the
wrong side and I believe that they redid the slide and put
it back on the right side .
Mr. Krzys-I think the original plan we did have it in Lake
Luzerne, and I think through all the meetings that we
had. . .
Supervisor Borgos-From day number one before this Board or
any part of us we have always talked about that fire
station being in the Town of Queensbury and to solve the
issue of response we very carefully worked out language
and you even agreed to it right up front, you went further
than we did about your employees being trained and being
available in the form of a fire burgage because neither
Lake Luzerne nor West Glens Falls can arrive there in any
type of reasonable time to be able to put the fire out .
So, that protection is essential with your employees as
responders .
Mr. Krzys-I remember that Steve , the only thing that I do
remember of Luzerne, the timing and everything, is that
when we finally got to the Planning Board in Queensbury
and, correct me if I am wrong Dan, but we put a sheet that
showed how our original application proposal had changed
vs what we were going to do when we got to the Planning
Board for their approval on the project . . .referred to the
Town Board. One of the things that I remember, I think
that I remember, that we showed as a change is moving the
fire station from Lake Luzerne into Queensbury from the
original application, that is what I remember. I think
that the reason. . .
Supervisor Borgos-I remember this very clearly because
obviously I have a deep interest in this particular
subject and I do remember from the beginning it was going
to be in Queensbury it did appear on a slide in Luzerne
and I called it to your attention immediately and said
that is a mistake and so it did get corrected and all , in
all of the FEIS information that is before us its stated
as being in Queensbury .
Supervisor Grant-Steve , I understand what you are saying
but for the safety factor element it should be in the Town
of Lake Luzerne .
Supervisor Borgos-Disagree . We have a major area of
disagreement because at buildout the tremendous demand,
the greatest fire load the greatest incidences and concern
will be in the Town of Queensbury no question that the
I
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Hotel and the downtown development where concentration of
people and burnable materials will be in Queensbury. But ,
again the wrinkle that has been thrown in to this is the
concept of the possibility of altering the phasing that is
the hold here . There would not be even a thought in my
mind of any station needed in Luzerne for years if it was
not for this new phasing. If the phasing starts in
Luzerne I can concede right away that probably is a need
for a satellite station in Luzerne . Under the proposed
phasing the roads coming into the heart of the development
would not even be available . You could not build a fire
station early on at the top of the mountain because the
roads if the phasing goes as discussed the other day would
not be in place, the water will not be in place, the
electric would not be in place the only thing reasonable
would be a satellite station out near the proposed
subdivision, because there is nothing else out there .
Attorney Krogmann-I thought at the last meeting and I
think it was Ron who brought it up and that was the idea
what are we talking about two firestations for a project
this size , one should be sufficient . You brought just a
term I have not heard and that is satellite fire station
if we agree that one station could serve the project then
why don' t we go back to Marilyn ' s idea that where ever the
development begins that is where the principal station
shall be .
Supervisor Borgos-I cannot buy that because again my
background in fire tells me you put the station as close
as possible to the heart of the proposed need that means
the heart of the proposed need would be right at the top
of the mountain in Queensbury .
Attorney Krogmann-Well , I am just offering what Marilyn
says the reasonable compromise . . .
Supervisor Borgos-I am not willing to concede that , that
development needs only one station, we have already got
two in Queensbury Central , we got two in Bay Ridge we got
two in West Glens Falls , for areas that are no larger, no
larger than this project is going to be . So , I am not
willing to concede that you need only one station there .
Councilman Monahan-I would go even further Steve and say
the greatest need for your EMT' s is probably going to be
with the exposures that you are going to have in
Queensbury .
Councilman Potenza-On top of my suggestion of putting a
satellite station in where the beginning development will
go and of course this is all predicated on where it is
going to go we are talking maybe Luzerne , maybe
Queensbury, it was also part of my suggestion that we
listen to the recommendation of the fire consultant and
take his recommendations rather than sit here I bow to
your expertise on the fire , but truly I do not know
anything and I think that is why the suggestion of the
fire expert was brought in .
Supervisor Borgos-I do not want to claim expertise but in
addition to thirty years of active duty I have written a
good chunk of a book on the subject I taught the course ,
disaster and fire defense planning many times to people
all over the northeast United States I have a little idea
of what I am talking about I would be very surprised if
any consultant offers anything different but I am not
going to play the role of consultant here .
Councilman Montesi-We have some strong feelings on both
sides of the fence here and we ought to try and, we have
to resolve it . You do raise one issue Steve that I had
not thought about and I felt that somewhere along the
lines I hear and see what Victor Grant is saying that ,
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that part of Luzerne has not fully developed it starting
to come and a fire station in that part of town would do
two to , three things for me , develop enthusiasm develop
membership and it would develop that first line necessary
for that part of town. I hear what he is saying I
understand what you are saying and I do feel that when
phase I goes in with the Hotel and everything there is
going to be water and there is going to be hydrants there
we are going to have some fire protection. If phase IV
goes in I think it is IV or V for West Mt . and they have
400 individual homes those homes are not going to be on
community water so there is not going to be hydrants on
the streets so whatever equipment goes in for Luzerne if
that is the first phase we better be looking at a
consultant with a juntos eye any say you are going to have
some pumpers in there . —
Supervisor Borgos-You are looking at different equipment ,
you are looking at tankers you are looking at pumper
tanker combinations you are looking at portable hydrants
you are looking at portable ponds you are looking at all
kinds of things totally different from what we were
looking at, at the top of the mountain.
Councilman Montesi-You have to hear Victor Grant out to
the next step is , he has made a strong statement and also
says even if phase I goes in Queensbury first he feels
strongly about it the satellite station being in Luzerne
so we have got to resolve that issue to the best ability
so this development either raises and falls not on its
merits not on where a fire station is .
Supervisor Borgos-Again, I had not heard anything about
this for probably a year or more so as I have mentioned a
week ago, a couple of weeks ago at our own meeting I was
Councilman Montesi-I thought everybody was thinking there
ought to be two stations there but nobody really thought
about the numbers . If I was West Mt . I be thinking about
the numbers .
Supervisor Borgos-I would recommend, you get a consultant
on board fast to make that decision. I do not think we
are going to agree no matter how long we sit here .
Councilman Monahan-I was going to say, another thing
Steve , I am going to listen to a consultant but a
consultant is not going to vote for me, he is going to be
one expert I am going to listen to . I am not going to say
I am to agree with him, I will consider what he says .
Supervisor Borgos-I am willing to listen.
Attorney Krogmann-Everybody has been willing to take the
issue of traffic and put it into that arena and let an
agency and that case make the decision for you why is fire
any different? Why shouldn ' t we handle that in the same
way?
Supervisor Borgos-I think it is worth considering, I am
certainly willing to listen I have opened my mind to the
proposed development starting on the other side .
Councilman Monahan-I am not making a committment but I
will accept what the consultant says .
Supervisor Borgos--I agree .
Attorney Krogmann-But you did on traffic .
Supervisor Borgos-Very reluctantly .
Councilman Monahan-Traffic is a little different type of
a , i41
thing, and you are going to have marry minds working on
that traffic . You are not just going to have one mind you
are probably one consultant .
Attorney Krogmann-Who suggested one consultant for fire?
We certainly have not .
Supervisor Borgos-They are hard to find .
Councilman Monahan-I just want to _get back to something
Joe Krzys and I have a problem with this , Joe , when you
came in front of the Town Board to get approval for this
PUD we talked about a fire station in the Town of
Queensbury. Now, as you well know, there is no
relationship between the Planning Board and the Town Board
by State Law so if you went and presented a plan different
to them than what you had talked about to the Town Board
they can give you site plan approval they can do this type
of thing but they cannot give you PUD approval that is a
Town Board job. So if you are going to them with a
different plan then what you presented to the Town Board
we have got an awful funny ball game going here .
Mr . Krzys-That is not what happen that is riot what I said
either Betty.
Councilman Monahan-Well , it sounded like you said, because
it sounded like, said when you went to the Planning Board
you put the fire station in Luzerne .
Mr . Krzys-No, what I said when we originally put in our
application this is my recollection is that my sense was
that we had the fire station starting in Lake Luzerne , if
that is not right then. . .
Councilman Monahan-I do not know what you did to the
Planning Board but when you talked to this Town Board
there was never a time, the first time I ever heard of the
fire station being in the Town of Luzerne was when I
picked up a piece in the Post Star a few weeks ago after
_.- you had a meeting with Luzerne . That was the first I had
any inclination of how the thoughts were going on that .
Supervisor Borgos-Let me call your attention to save some
time maybe, page 19 of the agreement very clearly, we
pushed for this for Luze.rne ' s protection, the second
paragraph from the top says , at such time as the need
therefore maybe identified by the Town of Lake Luzerne or
the Hadley Luzerne consolidated fire district the
developer shall be responsible for the provision of land
the fire station and the emergency squad structure and
equipment in the Town of Lake Luzerne on the same basis
and conditions provided for herein in the Town of
Queensbury . It is in the agreement, if they start the
project in Luzerne and you feel you need a fire station it
is right here they have got to do it .
Mr. Krzys-I do not disagree , all I am talking about this
is for Betty' s sake , is that we went through a process and
we started with an application that looked like this and
we ended up over here and now it looks like that . In that
process we had to go over several different stages several
public hearings and this whole thing got changed from day
one to what it is today. Do you remember our main road up
the mountain was going up the Luzerne Mt . Road. .
Supervisor Borgos-That was only for a week or so .
Councilman Monahan-And we told you right off the bat we
would never accept that, there has been changes in your
plan, yes , but what I am saying about after the Town Board
approved things when we were talking about the PUD if you
changed that when you went to the Planning Board . . .well I
do not know, because you just mentioned the fire station
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when you went to them in the Town of Luzerne .
Mr . Krzys-All I said was my recollection was that it
started in Lake Luzerne , probably this whole conversation
is probably mute it does not mean anything I was just
trying to tell you what my recollection was . . . .
Councilman Monahan-Not ever sense we seriously started
talking as a PUD in front .of this Town Board .
Councilman Montesi-The response , the fire company that
would respond to West Mt . presently or anything on the
mountain if you will on Hartman Hill would be down at the
four corners , right?
Mr. Krzys-That is correct . —
Councilman Montesi-If we were to respond to West Mt .
today, they would have to go all the way to Corinth Road
rather than Luzerne .
Supervisor Grant-That is correct , it is very serious . . .
Councilman Montesi-That is a long haul just as long a haul
as West Mt . going from Sherman Ave . or VanDusen Road up
the mountain.
Supervisor Borgos-But you are on top of the hill to start
off with.
Councilman Montesi-I was trying to get a feel where . . .
Councilman Diehl-Lake Luzerne-These are . . . response times
we have a fairly level terrain from our fire station to
the entrance to West Mt . we are looking at a three mile
road from that point into the project into Queensbury
there is no way you are ever going to get a fire appartus
up your crooked road in any sense of the word you want to
look at in this kind of weather with a bad storm. . . now, if
you look at the map of the development and I think the
thing I am getting out of this conversation is Lake _
Luzerne, I am getting Luzerne its really Lake Luzerne . I
am getting this more than I am fire protection, because if
you put that fire station in Lake Luzerne it could very
well be close enough to the top of the mountain to satisfy
your needs and also in Lake Luzerne to satisfy the
protection and the point we are making.
Councilman Livingston-Lake Luzerne-You are talking maybe a
couple hundred yards away from Queensbury .
Councilman Diehl-You are looking at a few hundred yards
from where it really could be located, get their map out
look at it and we would be the first to respond regardless
of mutual aid or anything else because we would get there
and you people won' t get there . Because if you have to go
the Corinth Road, Call Street to the big dip before you
ever get to that entrance you might just as well forget
it .
Supervisor Borgos-You haven' t obviously . . .
Councilman Diehl-I understand they will have people on
board but our company will respond too .
Supervisor Borgos-You have riot been to all of our meetings
and we have gone through the details of this not only
including their immediate response because they are right
up there but also the people mover which will immediately
take our guys up in seconds and it will , that was done in
such great detail that we even had them agree in the
agreement here to provide parking space is right there at
the entrance to that so all this has been thought through
the only wrinkle that has come in is this possible new
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phasing. But, you have to agree that the language you are
looking for really is here .
Attorney Krogmann-I disagree with that, I do not read it
the way you do .
Supervisor Borgos-The intent is the way I read it .
Attorney Krogmann-The language clearly invisions a primary
station initially in Queensbury, it says it shall be
constructed by the developer in the Town of Queensbury and
at such time as development necessary a second station in
the Town of Lake Luzerne .
Supervisor Borgos-That is not what that says .
Attorney Krogmann-Yes it does .
Supervisor Borgos-You look at that paragraph. . .the
paragraph says at such time as the need therefore . . .
Attorney Krogmann-Turn to (e) in the beginning it says it
shall be constructed by the developer in the Town of
Queensbury, now if you want to say, shall be constructed
by the developer in the Town of Queensbury or the Town of
Lake Luzerne as the project phasing occurs then that is a
compromise we are willing to meet you at least half way
but I do not hear, Queensbury saying that . . .
Supervisor Borgos-You do not hear- that, because this
entire agreement was predicated on the phasing plan
proposed by the developer, that exactly why it is the way
it is . Had the developer initially. . .
Attorney Krogmann-But that has changed .
Supervisor Borgos-It has not changed, the developer has
said it has not changed they are just asking for the
opportunity if the economy is different and if financing
is different they may come and seek a re-phasing. All
right, if they come back for a re-phasing then they say we
got a whole seperate paragraph that stands alone here that
says if Lake Luzerne identifies that they need a fire
station then it is to be provided and it is all ready in
the agreement .
Attorney Krogmann-I disagree , if you are going to change
the phasing or the possibility of that then I am saying
change the possibility of the location of the fire
station. Maybe we should not get excited maybe Queensbury
is satisfied we are going to get a station and we are not
going to approve our side of the project until we get a
station and tough luck to the developers they are going to
have to build two . But that seems to me . . .
Supervisor Borgos-That was never the intent , but .
Attorney Krogmann-That maybe a waste of time , effort and
money I do not know. That is why I am saying it seems to
me a reasonable solution is to leave it in the alternative
if the phasing changes if then perhaps the fire station
will change and leave it to the consultants to tell us .
Supervisor Borgos-You have to have the consultant to tell
you. But , think again, for a minute , if this thing is at
build out if Queensbury is built if Luzerne is built the
immediate responders respond the first people who can get
there from the outside world will be the West Glens Falls
crew because of the access by the funicular and because of
their ability to come in the back access road, even on bad
days people can get up appartus cannot get there
comfortably. I did live through although my neighbor did
not the December 1972 fire I am exactly familiar with what
happens to fire trucks and cars on that road but I do know
144
that the funicular tlus four wheel drive vehicles can get
people there faster _hen they can come from Lake Luzerne .
I have driven Ralph Road and all those , you got a great
road sy-stem.
Councilman Montesi-That was a good example that fire was
responded to by Luzerne first .
Supervisor Borgos-I do not believe so .
Supervisor Grant-Yes , it was .
Supervisor Borgos-I will get you the name of the first
person on the scene who was from West Glens Falls .
Councilman Montesi-Equipment .
Supervisor Grant-The equipment was there first .
Supervisor Borgos-I am not sure .
Councilman Monahan-That is Steve ' s point , Ron, the
equipment is going to be there at the top the primary
equipment is going to be there now we are trying to get
the trained personnel but they are not going to be as
trained as much as these guys that have been doing it ten,
fifteen, twenty, thirty years . You also got to have a
Chief, also up there as quick as you can get it . That is
what Steve is talking about .
Councilman Montesi-We are looking at a neighbor that says
I see some tremendous growth coming in my town and I
would like to start developing my fire protection in that
part of town which has not had much growth and I think
that is what Vic is looking at .
Supervisor Borgos-Great , and I think that is wonderful and
he is smart to do it and he is doi.na_ his iob and there is
language right here that lets him do it . He says , West
Mt. you want a subdivision of 200 houses you got to build
a fire station and here is what you have to put in it .
The language is already there .
Attorney Persico-Why can't we use the language that is
there .
Supervisor Borgos-That is what I am saying .
Attorney Krogmann-Not acceptable .
Attorney Persico-The way the contract is constructed now,
if the project proceeds as originally phased where it
would commence in Queensbury the fire house would be in
Queensbury the way it is now, I do not know if that is
acceptable to Luzerne , but that is the way it is now.
Attorney Krogmann-I do not think it is .
Supervisor Borgos-I hear that is not acceptable . But here
again we should not be fighting this out the developer
should have already argued this out and resolved it with
Lake Luzerne months or a year ago if you knew that, that
was a problem we should not be here to night , this far in
dealing with such a basic issue . I am quite anoid that we
are doing this, at this late date . I think this should
have been all resolved outside and much, much earlier, a
year ago, two years ago .
Mr . Mike Brandt-Steve , I think there is a problem that
we 've seen in this process , in all candor and with respect
to both communities the , we came in here asking for a
rezoning in two towns and that rezoning was for a certain
type of plan a PUD with a certain density. Immediately we
got into a situation where the planning board said in
Ir
145
F.E. I . S . that they are doing now and it will still
protect , you if they have to come in and redo it .
Attorney Krogmann-Legally that is not correct .
Councilman Montesi- . . . not to change this because you feel
that we are in, the Town of Queensbury is in a position
where we are going to get something, if you change it , you
think you may not get something .
Supervisor Borgos-No , I am concerned about the life and
safety of individuals who are on top of that mountain. I
believe very, very sincerely that if the development in
whatever phasing occurs goes as planned if the hotel goes
in Queensbury the downtown development goes in Queensbury
the most quick access the funicular is in Queensbury,
-then it must be Queensbury in this case W.G .F . Fire Co .
that must be assigned the task of first response . There
will be people on top of the mountain trained to W.G .F.
standards and State Standards to respond, but the W.G . F.
officers will be there to take charge much faster than the
Luzerne Officers could be , at any typical moment .
Councilman Montesi-That is for the Town of Queensbury and
that, we have covered ourselves on that . For the Town of
Luzerne to have the same equal footing and feel as
comfortable that if phase V begins their first all , I
gather all you are saying is you want the same language ,
what is wrong with the same language for them too?
That is all I am asking, I am not being argumentative .
Supervisor Borgos-No problem, we can say in the event of a
rephasing then the first station can go into Luzerne , but
then we will have to go through to every paragraph here
and say in the event of rephasing this , and then we will
have to back through the whole blasted document .
Mr. Krzys-But , we did , the last time we were here we did
language for rephasing . . . .under the rephasing plan we
got to come in . . .
Supervisor Borgos-I think that is adequate for now and
will protect everybody . But, if everybody wants to we can
go through and change every dog gone provision all the way
through here .
Councilman Montesi-All they are looking to change is fire
protection.
Supervisor Borgos-Right now, but there are a lot of other
provisions in here that talked about .
Councilman Monahan-Once you start, Ron, once you start to
monkey with a document you got to make sure that it does
not appear any other place .
Councilman Montesi- . . . to work this thing out , this is not
cast in concrete .
Councilman Monahan-What I was saying was , Steve is trying
to say
Councilman Monahan-We are talking about one word , shall ,
or and, maybe , gee . . .
Councilman Diehl-All we are asking to be is be reasonable
that is all .
Councilman Monahan-How many State certified people have
you got in your emergency squad over there?
Supervisor Grant-I really do not know, I do not belong to
the fire district .
146
Mr. Krogmann-You have to give us some direction.
r
Mr. Brandt-You guys are talking, well lets build in this
town, or once we build in that town first: what if you
build in both towns first? What if your first phase is
part of it in both towns . Then, lets lust_ say it is a 100
or 200 homes will we need two fire stations? If both
boards wanted to be unreasonable they could say you have
to do that and then you know what that does , the land
totally unusable because you have put so many costs
against it that you cannot get it off the ground. That is
not fair either.
Councilman Diehl-Right were it says here , shall be
constructed in Queensbury, that is the difference between
that, and our at such time as need may designate , and that
is why Steve is not willing to compromise .
Councilman Monahan-If Mike does this , we have wrecked the
whole F.E. I . S . and we got to do an addendum and go back
through the whole process anyway . I do not see why we are
even discussing that . That would be the time to discuss it
if that happens you do an new e . f . i . s . and that is when we
fight it out .
Attorney Persico-I think that is what is going to happen
here .
Councilman Diehl-That is the difference there , your are
stating it shall be constructed there regardless whether
it was needed or not the minute you start construction in
Queensbury, and I agree . . .
Councilman Monahan-See , what we are saying if they change
the phasing they got to come back with an F. E. I . S . and
then their plans will be definite, what they are going to
do .
Councilman Diehl-Same sentence under e ,
Councilman Monahan-Well , see it does not matter, because
if they change the phasing they got to come back for an
F.E . I .S . and then you are going to know what your phasing
is going to be and we are going to fight it out then.
So , we do not fight it out now.
Supervisor Borgos-It goes back to the heart of all these
months and months of discussion that there was never any
consideration that I am aware of anything other than the
first phase in Queensbury with the hotel .
Councilman Monahan-And that is what we did the F .E . I . S .
on.
Supervisor Borgos-That is how we built the plan it is only
in the past week or ten days that anybody has said
anything at all , that is the history of this language . We
put the other into protect you so when it did expand you
would have the option to get the same thing.
Attorney Krogmann-But, the language was drafted without
that recent history, you just said that , and that is my
concern.
Councilman Monahan-Dave , the point of it is if they change
their phasing they got to come in with another F. E. I . S .
and that is where this fight belongs is there not now.
Attorney Krogmann-But not within the context of this
language, Betty .
Councilman Monahan-It does because this is to go with the
all this kind of stuff so they got all the bells and
whistles and we agreed to pay for. . .and now we are down to
five tar six years later and now more is built and all of
that what is the detriment as to when another fire
Station goes in what size it is and all of that? How is
that determined?
Supervisor Borgos-The town, either town, goes to and says
we want another fire station according to my
interpretation of this language , but a maximum of one
station in each town provided for in the agreement as I
interpret it and you just go to the consultant to make a
proposal of how big and what equipment , but the fact that
there will be one is already determined in this agreement .
- Mr. Krzys-Back off a second, I am not saying regardless of
this agreement , this agreement is in place . But, now it
is six years out there is a fire station I will say in
Lake Luzerne that is the first one that is built , it was
started there for whatever reason, you know economic
reasons , and it is built . Now a consultant comes in and
says , you know, you are never going to need another fire
station, is there a need to put another fire station
there? The consultants say that everybody is in
accordance the two fire marshal ' s are in accord and all of
that?
Supervisor Borgos-I think then you come to both
communities under the provisions of amending this and you
say, you would like an amendment . I cannot for the life
of me expect somebody six years , ten years , fifteen years
from now saying you do not need anymore stations or you
never will .
Mr. Krzys- I do not know, it is a . . .
Supervisor Borgos-The language sits there , when you need
it, you use it , if you do not need you do not use it .
Councilman Potenza-What if you put in the word and , or
Queensbury and or Lake Luzerne .
Councilman Monahan-It will not work because . . .
Supervisor Borgos-I am being miserable
Councilman Potenza-Yes , you are .
Supervisor Borgos-I know it , I am only one vote . I could
be outvoted .
Councilman Monahan-I Just have a problem, I worked with
Attornies and I have worked with legal documents and I
have a problem with advice that I have had from Attornies
band-aiding an agreement , now if this needs to be
re-written I do not want to see this band-aided to night,
I want two attornies to sit down and write the article
correctly . I am not in sure a hurry to put the Town of
Queensbury' s name on something that this has to be done
with a band-aid type of approach .
Mr. Krzys-I don' t hear telling a bandaid, everything . . .
Councilman Monahan-Well , I heard somebody said why don' t
we stick in this , why don' t we stick in this , if the two
attornies are going to do this , why don' t we leave it and
forget about it tonight until they come back with the
language that we can look at .
Mr. Brandt-I think we are talking concept . I think, you
can have attornies write language until be are blue in the
face if we do not agree on concept . . .
Supervisor Borgos-We got to agree on the concept .
148 �.
Supervisor 'Borgos-On the same basis and conditions
provided for herein in the Town of Qu.een.sbury . Let me
talk to our Attorney . Counselor , the language that says
on the same basis and conditions provided for herein in
the Town of Queensbury does that mean to you what it means
to me? That is shall be equal. too? Same terms and
conditions . . . . I thought that we protected you.
Councilman Monahan-That sounds like when the Town of
Luzerne says we want our fire station we want our rescue
squad we are going to get it .
Supervisor Borgos-What is your interpretation, does that —
say they get it when they want it?
Attorney Dusek-Perhaps a suggestion that I would have is
that if we are ha.virig this much trouble with the paragraph
maybe that is the thing to rewrite the paragraph entirely .
Councilman Livingston-Evidently it is riot acceptable to
everybody here so lets put it to the side we will have a
workshop on it we will discuss it , re-write it
Supervisor Borgos-Why don' t we let the Attornies have a
workshop. . .
Councilman Livingston-Let the Attornies go at it , that is
fine, that way if they are both happy with legal writing .
Councilman Montesi-What would happen Steve , if you
followed Attorney Krogmann' s plan and inserted Queensbury
every place what would that mean.
Attorney Krogmann-Lake Luzerne with Queensbury. . .
Supervisor Borgos-What I hear Lake Luzerne ' s Attorney Mr.
Krogmann saying is that every time you see Town of
Queensbury he wants to say Queensbury or the Town of Lake
Luzerne .
Attorney Krogmann-As the phasing dictates or language . . .
Supervisor Borgos-I do not want to say that . Because
there is a paragraph here totally separate part of the
same general section of fire protection that says if Lake
Luzerne wants it they are going to get it . The same
sections says if the Town of Queensbury wants it they are
going to get it . Everybody is equal the language clearly
says on the same basis and conditions provided for herein
in Queensbury. Right now, each one without having to
consult the other will get it , we do not have to go to
Lake Luzerne and say we want one , Lake Luzerne does not
have to come to us , they go to the developer and say you
are bound by this agreement give us our station. It is
all done .
Mr. Krzys-Lets say for all practical purposes we start our
first phase in Queensbury and the only buildings that are
going to go up first all would be in Queensbury we have
that supposition, we will reverse . . .a different set of
circumstances . . .
Supervisor Borgos-That is what you have been talking about
for almost three years so you are not really reversing it .
Mr. Krzys-Suppose that regardless of whether it starts in
Queensbury or Lake Luzerne, I am just going to use that as
an example first , now Lake Luzerne can replace Queensbury
with Lake Luzerne so whatever gets developed first the
fire station goes in. Now lets say it is done with a
consultant who says the fire station ought to be 50, 000
sq. ft . and 47 engines and hooks and ladders and tanks and
long time ago, we should be here now just talking about 1149
little odds and ends and tid bites to tidy up this
agreement. We should not be fighting on basic issues
because we are never going to get through this .
Councilman Monahan-Steve , while we are on the fire and
rescue squad facilities I had a thought here too . . .
Mr. Krzys-Is it accurate. to say that nothing really
happens if there is only one fire station as to where it
goes? Because right now everybody has a fire station,
everybody ' s got everything and we are paying. If it goes
up, we have a phasing plan here that says if we go in Lake
Luzerne first that we got, to go back through the FEIS
process to satisfy all the environmental issues one of the
-- environmental issues is fire and safety we have to bring
that back on the table and, discuss the fire station going
in Lake Luzerne first I would think.
Supervisor Borgos-It is already in the agreement .
Mr . Krzys-It is already in there .
Supervisor Borgos-At such time as they think you need too .
Mr. Krzys-Everybodies got one —because otherwise I am
afraid we are going to be bogged down in this thing, the
sense here is one fire station is not going to go . . .that
is not the case . . .
Attorney Krogmann-Joe , Lake Luzerne is requesting is the
same language for Lake Luzerne that applies to Queensbury,
that is all we are asking for .
Supervisor Borgos-You have got it .
Attorney Krogmann-I think that is fair, no we do not . Put
Lake Luzerne in where ever you see Queensbury through out
paragraph e and then we have it .
- Supervisor Borgos-You want to say or , I do not want to say
or.
Attorney Krogmann-I know you don't .
Supervisor Borgos-Right now you have a totally separate
paragraph.
Attorney Krogmann-Why don' t we just give you a separate
paragraph and we will take the first paragraph would that
be acceptable?
Supervisor Borgos-Because, those are the guys you really
should be negotiating with we agreed to sign an agreement
that would be no less restrictive than what you wanted,
you right now can ask for the world based on this
agreement . You can ask for the biggest best fire house
that has ever been created and you do riot need permission
from the Town of Queensbury, this says so long as the Town
of Lake Luzerne or the fire district over there wants it
you get it . . . .
Attorney Krogmann-The problem with the paragraph is you
want to forget about the first part of subparagraph e
Steve and I cannot forget that and that envisions primary
station in Queensbury that will service not just
Queensbury but will service those portions of the project
in the Town of Lake Luzerne . All I am asking for is the
same language and protection that Queensbury has for Lake
Luzerne , what is so unfair about that?
Supervisor Borgos-I think you. got it .
Attorney Krogmann-We have gone through this twice .
150
one in Lake Luzerne and one in Queensbury in all honesty I
do not give a crap as long as it takes care of the safety
and fire, if one got to go in each town so be it . My
sense i's , is that practicality speaking is that as time
noes on and as this development starts we are all going to
learn more and we are going to make decisions that make
more sense latter on, based on real life data, real life
facts and at that point in time whoever the consultant is
at that time may say , hey, Lake Luzerne , you do not need
one , Queensbury you do . Queensbury , you do not need one ,
Lake Luzerne you do whenever it seems practical and
reasonable at that time will probably happen regardless of
what we have in this acreement .
Supervisor Borgos-In Lake Luzerne , very clearly again you
can change the language if you want , very clearly in my
mind, already Just simply has to say to you that they want
one and it is already in there and you have to provide it
and you got to lease it for five years at a dollar a year
and all those other good things it is already built: in for
them.
Councilman Montesi-I think over-riding the whole issue is
whether even if Luzerne phasing starts first the fire
house goes in there first , phase II or phase I then begins
and the developers comes to us and says look, we got a
real fine fire house in Luzerne we would like to put an
addition on it and put whatever appartus Queensbury ' s
_going to need in it, it creates a little bit of a problem
mechanically I think financially, that is a taxing
district up on top of the mountain there is a fire
district for Queensbury and how you get those dollars in
and out is cumbersome .
Supervisor Borgos-Well , there is no separate taxing
district , we are one big fire protection district and
anything built in Queensbury will pay fire tax to
Queensbury. Therefore Queensbury residences under the
original proposal will actually be paying to provide the
protection for Lake Luzerne at no cost to Lake Luzerne .
If on the other hand the station does in Luzerne and
depending on where it is then the Luzerne residence are
going to have to pay all the costs to provide the
protection in Queensbury with the aerial tower and all
those other things which are extremely expensive .
Mr . Krzys--I hear both sides saying, the only difference I
hear, if there is one fire station up there , where does it
go, in Queensbury or Lake Luzerne and right now we have
this thing set up so there are two fire stations on in
Lake Luzerne and one in Queensbury. Ten years from now we
may be here and part of its built and we start in
Queensbury so there is a fire station and things are going
to be different in Lake Luzerne, start in Lake Luzerne
first there is going to be a fire station there it maybe
different in Queensbury I do not know.
Supervisor Borgos-It all depends on the phasing where they
are going to go, but both are provided for , if ones up
first and the consultant said you really do not need it in
Queensbury I cannot for the life of me expect that but if
they say that we can come back and chit-chat . Discuss
with the consultant, the way it is now everybody is
protected particularly the people who live up there and
visit up there, and your liability is reasonably low
coverage .
Mr. Krzys-Right now. . .
Supervisor Borgos-I find it hard to believe that we are
arguing because we went out on a limb and we tried to get
that protection for Lake Luzerne and we got it in the
agreement, it is lust as clear and equal as Queensbury.
But, again I believe this should have been brought up a
1151
all of us , we , all want safety . . .
Supervisor Borgos-You could have potentially several
thousand people in your downtown, and I hope you will , in
you downtown shopping development at one time , those
people will be in the Town of Queensbury at that point, it
could be 3 , 000 5 , 000 at a time . They have to have
immediate response of your people until somebody from a
fire company gets there . We are saying the Town of
Queensbury Fire Companies should be there first .
Mr. Krzys-I am person who knows zero about fire equipment.
and all of that, you understand what safety is about what
fire is about I think, I want to make sure that it there ,
we do not want anybodies house to burn down because we
cannot get equipment there , we do not want anybody to die
from a heart attack because we cannot get emergency
equipment there and so the response time becomes very
important . That I understand, but I looked at this thing
and I hear now that maybe the kind of equipment we need in
Lake Luzerne is different then the kind of equipment then
we need in Queensbury because of the kinds of buildings we
have . I do not know whether that is true or not because I
never got into that kind of detail , I do not understand
that . I do not know and I do not know whether we need one
fire station or two .fire stations for 2800 houses I do not
have the faintest idea about that either .
Councilman Monahan-Joe , that is why you should go around
Queensbury and see that every fire company around here
does not have the same kind of fire equipment they have
different types of trucks depending upon where they are
station is located and the exposure , they are going to be
the first responder to the fires in their area and the
exposure that, that company is going to have to meet being
the first ones there .
Mr. Krzys-My understanding is that . . . every time a fire
station was necessary if somebody came in and said based
upon the number of houses that are here now based upon the
kinds of houses based upon the kind of equipment we need
based upon the cost that the stations are which are
elaborate very technical very sophisticated process to
determine what gets built . What kind of equipment is
there and how many people and where it is located and all
of that . What I hear us talking about here is we got a
project which in concept is 2800 houses with a big retail
place over here and a lot of houses over there and trying
to figure out where stations go today and I honestly do
not know whether they ought to go into Luzerne , Queensbury
or both, because I do not know enough about it my
suspicion is that we all have ideas like we did with the
traffic thing for example . I remember this argument , so
well , exit 18 , traffic consultant says one thing Steve
says something else , Victor Grant says something else,
where the traffic is going to go, nobody knows . We create
a process by which we . . . so that we are better guessing at
it when the time is real . What I hear us talkinv about
is , both places want a fire station, I can understand both
towns wanting a fire station and that if fine . All of us
want fire protection and that is fine , where they go,
what kind of equipments there and all of that, I honestly
do not know today, because I do not know anything about
it , it is very technical and in some ways we got a frame
work set up know in this agreement that says that there
are two fire stations today one in Lake Luzerne and one in
Queensbury the order as to which one gets put in first is
based upon the phasing thing, I hear that . I hear that we
have to have our employees trained no matter where it is ,
I hear that . I hear the fact that we need a consultant to
help us figure out what we need and where we need it and
when we need it and what size it is and all that, that is
also in the agreement . I think everything is covered in
the agreement except the details , right now where there is
152
going to be a principal fire station in the Town of
Queensbury, Lake Luzerne is involved in an Article 8
proceeding no thanks .
Councilman Monahan-You make that a condition of the SEQRA
review and the PUU.
Attorney Krogmann-I think everybody around here except
Steve has said they are not fire experts , what I am saying
leave it to the experts like we did traffic . Apparently
that is not acceptable .
Supervisor Borgos-I think you can reword that paragraph to
more clearly guarantee you what you would term a main fire
station in addition to the one in Queensbury , but I am
certainly not willing to re-do the other language because
in my mind it would not be appropriate to have that other
station in Luzerne . I am not saying for political reasons
either .
Attorney Krogmann-And you say that for the same reasons
that are valid that Lake Luzerne is saying them for.
Supervisor Borgos-I am saying it for the reasons just the
experience in the ball game .
Attorney Krogmann-And Lake Luzerne is giving the same
reasons we just happen to disagree .
Robert Livingston-How far apart would the proposed fire
houses be?
Supervisor Borgos-You could be three miles apart .
Councilman Potenza-You could be right on the border the
fire house could be on the border of Lake Luzerne and
Queensbury but on the Luzerne side of the border you do
not know geographically where it is going to be so I think
it is mute argument, I think we have to turn to the
expert and say listen this is the development this is what _
we are looking for where do we put it , are we going to
split the child in half?
Councilman Monahan-You know, I have just been working
something out here that is kind of interesting I think,
right now we have eight fire stations in the Town of
Queensbury, our population as we know is at least 30, 000 so
we have one fire station for every 3 , 800 people, we are
going to put how many people
Supervisor Borgos-7, 000
Councilman Monahan- Up there on top of the mountain and
you think one fire station can cover it, I think you are
wrong.
Unknown-Who said 7, 000
Supervisor Borgos-I said 7 , 000 , twenty eight hundred
houses by an average of a little bit less than 3 people
per house is 7, 000
Mr. Krzys-What I hear going on is we are starting now to
get into how many fire stations should there be for so
many houses what kind of equipment there ought to be in
the different fire stations . This is really technical
stuff . . .
Councilman Monahan-But , Joe we are not going to give up
the safety and welfare of the inhabitants that are going
be within the boundaries of the Town of Queensbury that is
our job to protect that .
Mr. Krzys-I understand that , that is the bottom line for
153
Queensbur� we do not want to act on that without a lot of
detailed design. We are asking for a conceptual approval
. . .with the planning board not a detailed plan approval .
It forced us into an enormous amount of design work to try
and satisfy that which we did and we tried to respond to
the two communities but here again we are right into the
same thing . We are trying to design the project in detail
without even having approvals and the design of this
project cost millions of dollars . To ask us to design all
the details before there is even an approval of the zoning
does not make sense . I do not think that any of us know
or really know exactly how this thing should be designed
we still got once we have approvals work with the
financial markets to see what can be done the financial
partners certainly going to have input they always do it
on massive input then the detail designs will come down,
whether that fire station belongs in Luzerne or Queensbury
I do not want to judge it , I do not think I know, I do not
think any of us know (tape turned) until the detailed
designs are done . I think we got to find some , something
that works for each community and for ourselves so we can
get on with the project and come back with designs that
are meaningful that will then help us sight and resolve
the issues . I hate to see us bogged down into so much
detail we are all trying to look too far ahead and we
can' t .
Supervisor Borgos-That is why I think Mike, in all good
faith and going on your plans we did not get into any
great level of detail we got into the conceptual part that
fire protection is one thing you had to address for the
SEQRA review the impact you have addressed it
conceptually, we haven' t said it has to go a foot from the
hotel or on this block or that block we said somewhere up
here . We also said there may come a time you need one in
Luzerne , now the time may come in Luzerne first its
already in the agreement . I do not see any need to go any
further with it , I do not know why it is so clear to me
and it does not seem to be so clear to everybody else the
concept was all there and it was put into the agreement
for exactly that reason. So, both communities were
protected we could have left it out but I did not think it
was smart to leave it out .
Mr. Krzys-My sense is that, what we have in the document
today sort of covers everything.
Supervisor Borgos-Well , would you agree that if you
developed in Luzerne , here is the best way to answer you,
you are the developer, if you put up a subdivision in
Luzerne or two subdivisions and Luzerne said to you under
the terms of this agreement we want a fire station over
there you give us land and pay for it do you believe that
you are bound for that?
Mr. Krzys-It would be their decision whether we would be
bound or not because that would probably be a condition of
us going forward.
Supervisor Borgos-If they asked you, if they decided that
they need a station there under the terms of this
agreement on page 19 do you feel you would be required to
put up a station.
Mr . Krzys-Yes . I would think so .
Supervisor Borgos-That ' s I believe the understanding.
Attorney Krogmann-And then if we make the decision and Joe
does not remember his words or situations have changed
then the decision we 've made condition to the approval is
arbitrary it is capricious and unreasonable because it is
154
Councilman Monahan-That is very important whether or not
they are State certified.
Councilman Montesi-I ' m getting the feeling of what we 're
saying and my Town is ' saying is , we 're really not
comfortable with Luzerne ' s fire protection we want to make
sure we ' re there . I don' t want to be part of that .
Supervisor Borgos-Your ' re saying that Ron, that ' s not
what ' s in here .
Councilman Montesi-Betty ' s just asking a technical
question, how many people do you have .
Councilman Monahan-That ' s right because that is very
important .
Councilman Montesi-Hell , I don' t care they have to service
those people .
Councilman Monahan-Yes you do .
Councilman Montesi-Betty , your not an expert to ask that
question. How many do you have in West Glens Falls do
you know, I don ' t think you know.
Councilman Monahan-Queensbury has some of the first State
certified people in EMT ' s .
Councilman Montesi-Do you know how many you have , you
asked Mr. Brandt that .
Councilman Monahan-Do you know when Bob was moved by Bay
Ridge he could not have been moved if that wasn' t a State
Certified Squad .
Councilman Montesi-Well , what would have happened if they
couldn' t have moved him?
Councilman Monahan-I want to know what we have up there
for protection of these people . Do we have people that
are State Certified? I know what ' s in our rescue squads .
I know what the people , the kind of equipment people know.
Councilman Montesi-Are you talking for Lake Luzerne or for
the Town of Queensbury, Queensbury is going to have their
own.
Councilman Monahan-That is what. Steve and I are i_ust
saying we want to make sure of .
Councilman Montesi-In our Town we are sure of it . It says
we are going to have our own. What they are saying is
they want to make sure that they have their own too . If it
means two words to be changed. I do not know what the
problem is .
Councilman Monahan-And we have no problem with them
putting that in. But , we are not going to give up the
rights of the Town of Queensbury .
Councilman Livingston-Nobody is giving up anybodys rights
when you say the Town of Queensbury and or Lake Luzerne
shall be constructed by the developer.
Supervisor Borgos-Are you changing your mind then? A few
minutes , . . .a few minutes ago I heard Vic say that he
thinks the main station should be in Luzerne , just on the
Luzerne side of the line, does that mean you do not want a
satellite station in your 200 or 300 house subdivision?
Councilman Livingston.-I did not see any satellite
provisions in there .
155
Supervisor Borgos-Its purposely left vague so that you all
by yourself without comitlg to us can go to the developer
and say we want this size station or this station this
kind of equipment , you get what you want . We provided for
you essentially a blank check at the expense of the
developer_ .
Councilman Livingston-I keep hearing that you provided for
the Town of Luzerne , I thought that we , why don' t we
provide for Lake Luzerne .
Supervisor Borgos-When, we are lead agent , as lead agency
in this we have negotiated to this point and it was at
this point we then go to you and say, we have already
signed off we agree that this is a good contract you have
to agree also . You, I do not believe have been involved
in the daily meetings that we have to get to this stage
and in so doing we could have left it out , which obviously
would not have been a good idea but we said lets get it in
here . We have got a. whole bunch of protections in here
and we think they are good.
Mr. Krzys-When I look at what is in each Town this is
becoming more interesting, I have never thought about it
this way, in Lake Luzerne we have 2200 houses we have a
400 , 000 sq . ft . industrial park we have 125 unit hotel we
have 68 , 000 sq . ft . of retail they all will be serviced by
fire protection in Lake Luzerne , in Queensbury you have
200 houses , 250 hotel rooms , 125 more than in Lake
Luzerne , 75 , 000 sq . ft . of retail space and that is it .
They have 68 , 000 over there, they have 125 unit hotel and
2200 houses does that mean that when there is a fire over
there that and the only fire station we got is in
Queensbury that nobody can go answer the fire in Lake
Luzerne until Queensbury ' s people show up to cross the
border to go service them?
- Supervisor Borgos-Joe , we have explained that to you at
least , let me just talk for a minute now. I , hate to get
irritated, I have explained it to you so many times , I
gave you and your representatives a copy of the Warren Co .
Mutual Aid plan which is in compliance with the N . Y . State
Mutual Aid Plan, you do not have to wait for anything.
Automatically, the instance that W.G . F. ge ts the tone,
the Luzerne , Hadley Dist . gets the tone , instantly
whoever gets there first Is in charge with their officers
until the other party gets there , there will be absolutely
no delay in response , you will be taken care of .
Mr. Krzys-I am under the assumption that , that is the
case, Dick has a suggestion +hat maybe will solve it all
this stuff atleast temporarily . We last week put together
a document that talks about what happens if the phasing is
different , and there is one paragraph in that , that I
think was acceptable to everyone last week was that if in
the event that such modified phasing of the project it
would be financially impracticable to implement .any of the
improvements of infrastructures described herein
particularly with respect to water supply and wastewater
disposal system, so why don' t we putt in there fire , and
emergency medical protection.
_. Supervisor Borgos-I think it is already covered . Because
they gave two examples there .
Councilman Potenza-What would happen if we doubled the
coverage .
Supervisor Borgos-Read the rest of the paragraph .
Mr . Krzys-and then it says which impracticality shall be
demonstrated to the satisfaction of the Town Board the
156
developer shall propose alternative methods with regard to
such improvements subject to compliance with all local
laws and regulations and ordinances to serve the proposed
phase and the project sponsor shall be required to comply
to all SEQRA requirements and all other State and Local
requirements . I do not know how we built anything
anyplace without having to satisfy fire , sewer, water,
emergency medical, all the time every time no matter when
we do it .
Supervisor Borgos-My intrepretation of this , if you start
with your phase in Luzerne , Lake Luzerne then you can use
Lake Luzerne water, or some other source rather than
Queensbury you can use Lake Luzerne ' s sewer or septic
rather than the City of Glens Falls .
Mr. Krzys-But it also says we have to go back through
SEQRA for all environmental issues , fire and safety being
an environmental issue . That Qets thrown back onto the
table too like everything else nets thrown back onto the
table . At that point in time the only thing we are
building is 200 houses in Lake Luzerne and we got to go
through the F.E. I . S . because of the change in the
phasing (tape turned) phasing change why doesn' t that end
up back on the table like everything else , because i.t will .
Supervisor Borgos-Bear with me for a second, I have only
used this board once before . I hate to propose I think I
remember all the details of your plan but, (drew out plan)
it is something like this , the Town line is something like
this . This little piece in Queensbury, this is Luzerne .
the main entrance is back in here somewhere I think,
winding roads that loop around and do whatever they do .
If you are talking about being financially strapped and
want the option to begin a development you said near the
end in Lake Luzerne you. probably would be talking about
subdivision somewhere in that area a short piece of road
easy to get to . Where do you want to build a fire
station, you want to build it up here , you cannot get to
it so you got to build it over here somewhere where you
need it or maybe just across the street so to conserve the
whole end of Lake Luzerne, it does not make any sense to
build one here and then do another one up in here , it just
does not make sense . The reasonable location is up in
there otherwise you are going to have two in the Town of
Lake Luzerne . Do you need two in the Town of Lake
Luzerne, this station cannot adequately serve . . .
Mr. Krzys-If you are starting that way, the question of
whether there is one in Lake Luzerne in the beginning is
mute because there will not be .
Supervisor Borgos-If you build a station here that station
cannot serve here anybetter than one down below can. You
got to have immediate response , you cannot by the
structure of your roads , you cannot be there in three
minutes .
Mr . Krzys-I do not know the technicality of it .
Attorney Krogmann-Steve , let me ask a question, lets
assume there is aoing to be two stations someday .
Supervisor. Borgos-It has never been envisioned as
absolute , but. .
Attorney Krogmann-Do you have a problem if the phasing
started in Lake Luzerne and the first station is built in
Lake Luzerne then until the development begins in
Queensbury that the Lake Luzerne station would serve not
only Lake Luzerne but some portions of the project in
Queensbury until Queensbury gets its station , do you have
any problem with that?
157
Supervisor Borgos-I have no problem, I would insist on it .
West Glens Falls Chief would contact fire control and
insist that a dual tone go out ,
Attorney Krogmann-And that is what the agreement provides
in reverse right now, I£ the station starts in Queensbury
first and until such time as Lake Luzerne gets its
facility the Queensbury station will serve not only
Queensbury and Lake Luzerne . Why can' t we rework
subparagraph e to say exactly those two things and then
the town that gets sta.t:ion second reserves its right at is
absolute discression fellows to require a second station.
That they do not havea_ny say about it , if we say it has
to happen it has to happen .
Supervisor Borgos-That is the language that we believe we
incorporated here already.
Attorney Krogmann-It is not there , in my opinion.
Supervisor Borgos-As far as the absolute discression I
believe is here .
Attorney Krogmann-It does not have absolute discression
but in the event the concept of a station in Lake Luzerne
initially serving not only Lake Luzerne and Queensbury is
not in this agreement but the reverse is . Queensbury
first serving Lake Luzerne , all I am saying is plug it in
both ways .
Supervisor Borgos-We were asked by the developer to put
that language in.
Attorney Krogmann-They caused the problem.
Supervisor Borgos-That language is not necessary because
it is automatic under the provisions that everybody is a
signatory to the Warren Co . Mutual Aid Plan it is already
there .
Attorney Krogmann-Is there any problem with anyone doing
it that way?
Supervisor Borgos-I do not have a problem with that?
Will that solve everybodies problem?
(Agreed to by the Boards)
Attorney Krogmann-Paul , the idea is , in subparagraph e
that subparagraph in the beginning envisions the
construction of the fire station in Queensbury first to
serve Queensbury ' s portion of the project and Lake
Luzerne ' s portion and at sometime Lake Luzerne will build,
will get its own station. What I proposed and I think in
concept it is acceptable is to reverse the language also
in that paragraph to envision a primary initial
construction of a station in Lake Luzerne to serve the
Lake Luzerne project and portions of the Queensbury
project until Queensbury avails itself of the right to
require a second station.
Supervisor Borgos-If the phasing changes and if a whole
bunch of . . .
Attorney Krogmann-Rework the language and then in the last
paragraph we talk about the Town will get the second
station reserving to that Town and its absolute
discression whenever it is necessary to require that
second station so we do not get involved in any
reasonableness argument by the project developers .
Supervisor Borgos-I think that is what we thought we had
done .
158
Supervisor Grant-It is , in. one sense it is and one sense
it is not . One sense as he is putting it now it does
make us equal partners and not in addition too .
Supervisor Borgos-That has always been the idea.
Supervisor Grant-I understand that , I agree and I
disagree .
Councilman Diehl-The wording was a little mixed up, that
is all , but I think we all agree of the concept .
Lets got to the next project .
Councilman Monahan-I want to do some more on the fire ,
sorry . There is one thing I think that has not been
addressed. The developers is going to construct they are
going to lease to whatever fire company it is for $1 . 00
per year
Supervisor Borgos-I am going to pay the $1 . 00
Councilman Monahan--A+_ the end of five years it goes to the
fire company, nobody has discussed who is going to
maintain that structure during those five years .
Supervisor Borgos-It would be , we did discuss . . .
Councilman Monahan-We have not got it in here .
Supervisor Borgos-It ' s not in there , it would be my
understanding and I do not know if we need language , maybe
we do, that while this is , as soon as it is turned over
and you wanted it leased rather than turned over
immediately for tax purposes it would be my understanding
that the tax base would be there and the fire company
would do the maintaining .
Councilman Monahan-Well , wait a minute, what are we
talking about, at the end of five years or are we talking
about when they first start leasing?
Supervisor Borgos-From day one .
Councilman Monahan-Because , I am thinking about something
major. Like somebody going into the side of the building
and knocking half of it down the roof going off or
something like that.
Mr. Krzys-There is insurance for all that stuff .
Councilman Monahan-Not for all of it there isn' t
Supervisor Borgos-My thought specifically was that the
fire company at that point would take over those costs
but,
Councilman Monahan-But it ought to be in there I think.
Supervisor Borgos-The tax base would be there , that ' s what
the need for the fire station . You might miss a taxable
status date by half a year of something but there should
not be a major problem, a brand new building should not
require a lot of maintenance . I think you have agreed to
plow the snow for the station and sand it do those kinds
of things which are important because you got private
roads .
Councilman Monahan-I think you should put that in then. I
would question one other thing and that is just the makeup
and maybe there is some reason the attornies did this .
The minute I read this about the fire companies and the
rescue squads I was looking for the funicular . It is in
here on page 27 up at the top but I am wondering if it
159
should not be moved to where we are talking about the fire
stations .
N
Supervisor Borgos-There are a lot of other reasons for it ,
lets see .
Councilman Monahan-There maybe a reason for where it is .
Supervisor Borgos-I think tk ended ,.tp where i.t is cause ii:
did .
Councilman Monahan-But this talks about the fire fighters
right there .
Mr. Kryzs-As long as it is in there , . . .
Councilman Monahan-Well , maybe it is good to draw things
together where it was , because I had put a note right down
immediately where, you know.
Supervisor Borgos-Item J on page 27 .
Attorney Dusek-I think that it could certainly go under
the fire protection clause my recollection is that there
were a variety of mist . agreements that were reached
subsequent to the main body of the agreement and I think
it just happened in there, but certainly if you wanted it
to be moved. . .
Councilman Monahan-To my feeling that is where it belongs
and should stay together.
Supervisor Borgos-I would have no problem in moving_ it if
everyone could agree . It would be very clearly
understood that is another provision related to fire
protection, fire and ambulance and. police for that matter.
Mr. Krzys-Lets get back and finish this fire thing_ , do we
have an agreement on this fire station?
- Supervisor Borgos-We have an agreement in concept I would
have to see the final language but, as everyone said I
think we all have been agreeing all night .
Supervisor Grant-I think we pretty much agree .
Mr . Krzys- . . . if we want to finish this tonight my sense
is that maybe this is the biggest. issue .
Attorney Krogmann-I got the thought together but I do not
have the language together.
Supervisor Borgos-I do not know that we will have , you
would have to go out and. spend an hour and I would have to
spend twenty minutes or so reading it , lets see what else
we got . If we get real close maybe, but I , the way we are
going I think we will be here a while .
Councilman Montesi-Where are we at-ing to put. the State
Police or Deputy Substation?
Supervisor Borgos-The Deputies are going on top of the ski
jump so they have the best view . The State Police are
going to be in a revolving restaurant on top of that . We
_- cannot get too serious about this because we will all go
crazy .
Councilman Potenza-Can we move on, are we done with fire?
We have not completed it but lets move on.
Supervisor Borgos-Our Attorney identified two areas , Paul
are you happy so far with this?
Attorney Dusek-I guess the safest thing to say is yes .
160
Supervisor Borgos-Are there any other major items of
dispute , that anybody thinks we are going to hit , lets
knock off those . . .
Councilman Monahan-Paul said we had a second one .
Supervisor Bongos-I thought so before . . .
Councilman Monahan-What is the other one we are talking
about .
Attorney Dusek-I think those were the two , the fire was
second, the first one was phasing . . .my only other
suggestion to the Board was is that , there were changes
made in other places throughout the agreement , changes you
certainly would want to review I had no particular
comments on them I think really they are lust a matter of
whether the board finds them acceptable or not .
Supervisor Borgos-Where would you propose that you start .
From page one and go on through it? I have it in this
f ormat .
Attorney Dusek-There is an agreement dated Feb. 8 , 1990
where they have underlined all the proposed. changes .
Councilman Monahan-But it is also in this new document
underlined right?
Councilman Potenza-From Feb. 12 . . .
Councilman Monahan-I do want to comment that we do not
have legal description of this PUD boundary anyplace in
this document? I do riot know where it belongs but we
sure do not have it here .
Supervisor Borgos-Lets let our Attorney tell us some
background .
Attorney Dusek-What has transpired here is that, the
original agreement went to Lake Luzerne as everyone knows
after the Town of Queensbury had approved the original
agreement . Chancres from that agreement were made by Lake
Luzerne and Dave Krogmann, myself and Steve Borgos , Dave
Krogmann and the developers met went over the changes with
the Developers briefly with the understanding that
obviously the Town Board were not committed to anything
that we were doing but rather to help expedite the process
we reviewed them . Some further modifications were made
from things that either Steve picked up on or that I
picked up on and some changes were agreed to in the
language now, this is what you see in .front of you. The
agreement in addition to having that additional language
in there also has been condensed what we used to have an
agreement with an addendum, the addendum has been merged
into the agreement . From everything that I can see, and I
cannot say that I have reviewed this so carefully that I
want to certify that this is an identical to the original
agreement with the addendum . I will say it looks similar,
and that it seems to be consistent with what we had
before . I do not know who did the merging of the two
maybe they will indicate whether or not they are willing
to certify to that on the record.
Supervisor Borgos-Someone said that they would . I recall
that discussion, we did not want to go back through. Is
anyone willing to certify that?
Mr. Bradway-I am fall.able but it was to the best of my
knowledge its everything that is in the addendum is , has
been incorporated through here .
Attorney Persico-I checked it over from my point of view
it is ok too . I did go through it .
Supervisor Borgos-You two are both on the same side
though .
Attorney Persico-I was just about to say for what it is
worth .
Supervisor Grant-We are satisfied with it .
Supervisor Borgos-You are happy with it?
Supervisor Grant-Yes we are , we have been through it .
Supervisor Borgos-Good. Lets see if the rest of the
Board, the rest of the Board has not discussed this yet .
Councilman Monahan-Paul , I just wondered on page 5 down
near the bottom of the changes there where it says shall
if you want the word may instead of shall they are talking
about , it starts out systems if the first word in the
sentence its Just above 6, one , two , three , four lines up
the developer shall propose alternative methods . I
wondered if may is perhaps not the better word there .
Attorney Dusek-Is this that number 5 . . .
Councilman Monahan-This is the rephasing thing .
Attorney Dusek-This has been all rewritten in that
paragraph 5 A that I just handed out, I Just got this
tonight so I Was not able to shoot this thing sooner .
Councilman Monahan-So when are we going to start taking_ it
out and putting this one in.
Attorney Dusek-My understanding is that everything that is
underlined at the end of paragraph 5 comer out and this
hand out that you. have in front of you 5A goes in its
place . This should be language that is similar that what
was agreed upon at the last session.
Councilman Monahan-So we cross off every single thing
that . . .
Councilman Diehl-Everything that is underlined . That is
what we did last time , this is the result of it .
Councilman Montesi-Steve , as part of this agreement we are
talking some generalities some concepts , one of the
concepts that is involved in this agreement is the
recreational land in lieu of the fee that Lake Luzerne and
the Town of Queensbury are receiving from the Developer .
Some new information has come to the attention of a few of
the Board members , Queensbury Board Members and probably
Lake Luzerne Members about where the Adirondack Part,
jurisdiction would be and would like to be with regards to
some specifics that we are asking the developer to do . I
asked Paul to give us a map so we could all refresh
ourselves . We have 120 acres of land that literally sit
in the Adirondack Park, 20 of the acres have been
suggested to be deeded to the Town of Queensbury, 100 to
the Town of Lake Luzerne . There is roadway through the
middle of it, I think that our agreement here says that we
are going to widden that roadway to two lanes , pave it and
provide an emergency access and that access if it happens
to be in Luzerne they would have discression over who goes
in or out or how it is opened of closed or whatever. I am
not sure what the language there reads . Mike Brandt has
some information that may be of interest to both towns as
to , if we make that road two lanes wide what might happen,
2 ,� I
16
Mr . Brandt-Well , I don' t , it is all hear say, but the hear
say is that there are people in the Adirondack Park Agency
who have asked if they can take jurisdiction of the entire
project i� that road is built on the Park Land . Therefore
treat the whole project as if it were in the Park.. That
scares the living Hell out. of me .
Councilman Monahan-Wa.it a. minute , run that by me again.
You are saying if this road goes forth as has been talked
about then the APA says we are goin.0 to have ju.rsid.iction
over the whole project whether we are in the APA or not?
Mr . Brandt-My understanding is that they may even asked
their lawyers if they can construe the law to say that and
of course you know what their lawyers are going to say and
then that means we will be litic_ratina_ the thing with the --
Attorney General . That seems very foreign to me and
illegal I do not know if it is , I do not know that they
might have a right_ to do that and I know that would just
wipe us out .
Councilman Montesi-One of the considerations that we can
at least think -about is if the roadway is in there and it
can be paved presently one lane wide without involving
anymore . . . from APA.
Mr. . Brandt-I think the sticking point as I understand it
with the APA is the wet land. I do not think they have
any jurisdiction otherwise . Where it crosses the wetland
it is one lane wide but the rest of it really was built
two lanes wide before the APA law was enacted. I know, I
built it . I built it because I know the APA law was
coming and I knew that it was not enacted yet so I built a
road. I only made it one lane wide were it crosses the
wetlands , I did not know it was a wetland at the time , it
looked like a stream to me .
Councilman Montesi-My only question is without getting
another state agency involved in it , can that road be
accepted and paved one lane at the bridge or how long a
distance we are ta.lkina over the wetland?
Mr . Brandt-It is a very narrow thing . It is probably 100 ,
200 feet .
Councilman Montesi-How does that sit with us , is there a
problem.
Supervisor Borgos-You mean take it two lane down to one
lane and back out for a short distance?
Supervisor Grant-I have no problem with it .
Supervisor Borgos-As long the bulk of it is two lanes .
Councilman Montesi-I mean it is an important consideration
that should be dotting all the i ' s .
Councilman Diehl-No problem with that , the problem would
be with APA letting us do it , make a road out of that in
the first place .
Councilman Montesi-Hut it is there .
Councilman Diehl-I mean to pave it .
Supervisor Grant-It is there , you cannot stop it .
Councilman Monahan- Yea , but it is not paved, they cannot
stop you paving it .
Supervisor Grant-No , two lane yes , but not one lane . No
they can't Betty, it is there , it is grandfathered. .
163
Councilman Monahan-Yes , but I did not know if you could
improve it .
Supervisor Grant-Absolutely .
Councilman Montesi-That maybe something that you may want
to just in touch because I think ours says two lane wide
the whole length.
Supervisor Borgos-You can put in a little thing except
where that goes through a wetland for approximately 200
feet or whatever .
Councilman Monahan-Or do we want to say except where said
change would require approval from APA or do you want to
flag it?
Supervisor Borgos--No .
Councilman Monahan-Well , I was just wondering in case we
do not describe it right .
Supervisor Borgos-I have no problem with a little bit ,
again that was free advice we got from a consultant, you
got to have vehicles go both ways .
Mr. Brandt-That road bed is two lanes wide the whole thing
except that little stretch .
Supervisor Borgos-At some point in the future maybe , you
can fill it in.
Councilman Monahan-Give the the rescue squads a pontoon
bridge they can carry with them.
Supervisor Grant-What else do we have?
Councilman Monahan-I have not read this revision yet .
Councilman Montesi-Do you want to identify the twenty
acres Mike, that you want to give to the Town of
Queensbury?
Councilman Monahan-We were going to go up and take it, we
are going to go up and identify it .
Councilman Montesi-The problem with that Betty is , there
is a serious problem with that , if we take where the
roadway is then they cannot pave it .
Councilman Monahan-That is why we did not want to get near
a roadway.
Councilman Potenza-The area that you. walked was the
roadway .
Councilman Monahan-I know I realize that so we are going
to have to back off from that .
Supervisor Borgos-That was the easiest to walk.
Councilman Potenza-That is right , but the commission does
not want that roadway, and logically that roadway if you
look at where that land lies , that 1.20 acres , if you
wanted to take the 20 acres closest to the Town of
Queensbury .
Supervisor Grant-We do not care where it is . OK. We do
not care , we want you happy.
Councilman Potenza-The only thing we care — is that . . .
Councilman Montesi- . . .we have a little access on Luzerne
Road .
164
Councilman Monahan-We want to be able to park.
I
Councilman Potenza-But , not near tha.t . . .
Councilman Montesi-We ought to have something there .
Councilman Potenza-All right , we got ours , we want deeded
right of way over the land .to get to the perfect 20 acres
out of this 100 . . .
Attorney Dusek-Is the 20 acres selected at this point?
Councilman Potenza--No .
Mr . Krzys-It just says in here that you have your choice
of . . .
Attorney Dusek-Is that still what you want , later on?
Councilman Montesi-Obviously we want to be on Luzerne Mt .
Road so that we can have a parking space , my concern was I
was trying to convey to Betty was that when our
Recreation Commission walked it they walked the roadway
that is existing there and their comments were they do not
want to see it paved . Well , we are asking to pave it as
an emergency access . So , what I am saying we have got to
back off from wanting the 20 acres where the paved road
is going to be and take another corner someplace, as long
as it is on Luzerne Mt . Road so we can have our own
unpaved parking lot so we can. . .
Supervisor Grant-We will give you 100 feet on the road and
the rest out in back, we will give you 100 ' strip the
whole length of it .
Supervisor Borgos-Totally unusable .
Attorney Krogmann-How are we going to agree upon what the
20 acres Queensbury is getting and 100 acres that Luzerne
is getting?
Councilman Potenza-Well it is going to be the 120 in Lake
Luzerne and out of that 120 , 20 of it goes to the Town and
Attorney Krogmann-Which 20
Councilman Monahan-Somebodies got to go up and walk that
and flaq it .
Attorney Krogmann-So you are willing to give Queensbury
the first option to choose 20 acres .
Supervisor Grant-Because they do not want any road there
in their 20 acres , paved. road .
Attorney Dusek-I think we ought to put that in the
agreement .
Unknown-It is not in the agreement , somebody said they
were going to get the prime land, I said wait a minute .
Supervisor Borgos-I thought it was .
Attorney Dusek-No it is riot in there . . .
Attorney Krogmann-Put it in paragraph 1 on page 24 .
Councilmam Diehl-If your recreation people are looking for
access to the existing ski trails and things that are in
the development, they should want a. block that is adjacent.
to . . .
Supervisor Grant-Our area of 100 acres is going to be
165
wild.
Councilman Potenza-Forever wild . . .
Supervisor Grant-And yours is going to be usable for
something. . .
Councilman Potenza=Passive Recreation.
Supervisor Borgos-It is probably going to be wild too .
Councilman Monahan-We just wanted to be able to qo in
and look at birds and walk around and stuff_ like that .
Councilman Potenza-We will have passive recreation, we
will have trails in there , cross country skiing and also
so they can get over to the cross country ski trails at.
t.he . . .
Supervisor Grant-We want to work with you.
Councilman Potenza-..Great , then you. . . .
Mr. Krzys-There are a couple of concepts fie has been
talking about for -the last few minutes that I think are
important in terms of some lanquage , . . . I think I heard
two things , one is that you talked to Dave about giving
Queensbury . . .you just changed the language there .
Councilman Monahan-Excuse me just a minute, but don 't
forget that Queensbury wants to be able to go from their
parks to the walk ways and roads that Mike is going to
have through there so he can get over to the overlook over
the river.
Mr. Krzys-That is already in the agreement .
Councilman Monahan-I am talking about when they are doing
all these changes because of the road I do not want them
to get away from where we can qet onto that part .
Attorney Dusek-I think you are protected for this reason
Betty, is that the, you are taking from the 120 acres in
the language that we just proposed just. now, which was not
their earlier, covers all of your concerns , it says , it is
the intent of the parties hereto that from said 120 acre
parcel the Town of Queensbury shall have the right of
first and preferred selection of 20 acres , so .
Supervisor Borgos-They said, I could not believe it .
Councilman Montesi-I look at that as a . . . .
Supervisor Grant-It is all _going to be forever wild
anyway, what difference is it going to make , and it is a
joint . . .
Unknown-It goes on and says that , it is the intent of the
parties . . . that there will be a joint . . .
Supervisor Grant-We still do not have a problem with that .
Unknown-Let Betty make sure she gets what she wants , so
that she is happy, to have the connecting trails and we
-- will be all set .
Mr. Krzys-The second concept was one of the road that is
being paved going through the Adirondack Park there is,
this language although it seems like there an agreement
it seems to me ought to be in this document . . .
Mr. Bradway-Lets firm up the language , it is on page 12
and we can put it in right at the end of the second
sentence , it says that said roads will be paved to a width
166 �.
adquat:e to allow the slmultaneou.s passage of emergency
vehicles proceeding in the opposite directions and then
they can say except
Mr . Krzys-Except over the wetlands an area of one way
access road, one lane width . . .
Mr . Bradway-Page 12 Paragraph 10 the second sentence in
paragraph 10 tack something on to the end. . .
Supervisor Borgos-Except in the areas of designated
wetland . . .
Councilman Potenza-And the required buffer zones .
Mr . Bradway-Which shall remain what two lanes?
Councilman Potenza-One lane .
Supervisor Borgos-May I add another word , perhaps , in that
same paragraph which is paragraph 10 , I think the second
sentence should read , this will satisfy a_. little concern
that has just come up , where it says the said road, you
should add the word this said existing road . Mrs . Monahan
has called to my attention it would be wise to let
everybody know that we know that. it is there already . The
said existing road.
Mr. Krzys-Dick has some language that. he also wrote in
about the APA. . .where the .
Supervisor Borgos-We want to keep that narrow spot as
short as possible . . . .where are we now, a.t some point. I
want to go back to page one and just flip through real
fast to be sure we have got everybodi.es questions . . .
Unknown-Page 12 , we need a little bit of background from
you about the underline there about the gate , the town
board we could come up with some type of a system to
seclzre it upon the approval. of the Queensbury Town Board?
Supervisor Borgos-Reserves the right to determine the
manner of securing subject to approval . The whole idea of
behind securing this at all is to prevent people from
using that as a. main road, it alway has been that concern
that is why we talked about using Luzerne Mt . Road as a
main road because it Just won ' t handle the traffic . We
want to be sure that , that is secured, preferably with
something like a credit card, locking system or something
that not just everybody can open it also should be
operable such that if the system fails with the credit
card and an emergency vehicle can use a bolt cutter and
get through it .
Supervisor Grant-The only thing is Steve there , I really
think that if it was reversed the Town of Lake Luzerne
would not want to tell you that this is going to be
subject to our approval . I think that is a little
strong , I think that we understand what this is and
possibly it should be left to the discretion of the Town
of Lake Luzerne because it is in the Town of Lake
Luzerne .
Supervisor Borgos-Again, we ' ve got to go back_ to the time
when the language was drafted with the phasing that was
then proposed and it was thought that for the first five --.
or eight years all the development would be in Queensbury .
We were considering all of Queensbury emergency forces
going there and whatever .
Supervisor Grant-Instead of using subject why don' t you
put with the approval , so that this way it does not say
Supervisor Bar os-F' e he same thing as far as I am 167
concerned . That wou.�� fie 111 w _ me .
Attorney Krogmann-That was discussed at another meeting .
Councilman Livingston-Yoll. have got to understand our point
here we are sitting over there and we will be dead and
gone , voted out , and in the future down the road. somebody
is going to be sitting here and say gee , here is an
entrance on Luzerne property and everthing else but we
have to run over the mountain for approval of the
Queensbury Town Board on stuff and its not written up
really good . We understand that you have concepts of what
you want and basically we have the same thing, how we can.
Supervisor Borgos-We have to agree that we do that we all
-- agree that is for emergency use only, Police, Fire ,
Ambulance that is it .
Unknown--How do you feel about th.a_t David?
Attorney Krogmann-Why don ' t we say you reserve the right
to secure the , determine the manner of securing
entrance maybe upon consultation with the Town of
Queensbury, but then say what the entent of the parties
is . It is the intent of the parties that this shall not
be a primary access road for emergency vehicles only .
Supervisor Borgos-I think that is already in there but we
can add it .
Councilman Monahan-I had written that in there after
entrance .
Attorney Dusek-This is being changed a little bit , right
now, its subject to the approval of the Town of Queensbury
the language that Dave has proposed essentially takes that
subject to approval away from you and says that you will
only be consulted , but then they can do what they want .
Councilman Monahan-No , they said with the approval they
just want to take subject to out and put the word with in
place of subject too .
Attorney Krogmann-No , that was two suggestions . In
otherwords , . . .
Councilman Diehl-It would be a Luzerne , (tape turned)
Councilman Monahan.-The very first concept that we said
when we discussed this no matter where this development
goes the impact on the roads is going to be in the Town of
Queensbury. That road will not take the kind of burden of
traffic that that development is going to demand.
. . .Luzerne Mt . Road on the Queensbury side cannot take the
amount of traffic that would naturally would want to go up
that road because it is the prettest , fastest , easiest way
when you come off the Northway . It is the worst to drive
but for anyone coming, we do not want all those nutty
drivers from New York, New Jersey, that don' t know how to
drive our mountain roads using that road either . I had
put in when I read this after entrance so long as it does
not lead to the entrance being used for anything but
emergency vehicles .
Supervisor Borgos-I believe that language is there
somewhere .
Councilman Monahan-It is in another place but I think it
ought to be re-iterated.
Attorney Krogmann-All I am saying is that if we are going
to reserve the ultimate right to make the decision. to Lake
Luzerne which they are requesting we could put in what the
168
standard is that they have to be qui.d.ed by and making that
determination which is that it will not be primary access
road butyonly for emergency vehicles .
Supervisor Borgos-And secured in a manner such that only
emergency vehicles may have access to it .
Councilman Monahan-Yes , it has got to be very definate .
Supervisor Borgos-Then I do not, have a problem with it .
Supervisor Grant-We do not have a problem with that at
all .
Councilman Livingston- . . .you throughly understand that
there is no way you can relinquish the Town rights like
that . . .you know what I am saying .
Supervisor Borgos-Lets come back here a minute , it has
-lust been raised that the concern is because it is a town
of Luzerne Road paved by Luzerne , it is my understanding
that all the roads in this development are private roads ,
now is this something, is whole different? It was my
understanding that all the roads in the project are
private roads , I think we got to get this clear .
Councilman Monahan-It is also mentioned on page 24, 25 . . .
Supervisor Borgos--If it deeded Town Road you cannot block
it off .
Councilman Monahan-That is right you cannot block it .
Councilman Montesi-I do not think it is deeded , it is in
the Town of Luzerne . . .
Supervisor Borgos-That is not what they are saying now.
Councilman Monahan-Yes , it has got to say a private road..
Mr. Krzys-Dana, is there one of the changes in what
happened in Lake Luzerne that talks about that?
Councilman Potenza-Look at page 5 section 6 number
d. . . section 5 of the modifications , page 20/12 it says d
the Town of Lake Luzerne shall construct such a road and
developer shall reimburse the road for all costs
associated thereafter.
Councilman Monahan-That is on page 25 in this copy and
that is a question I have got to ask Victor if under State
Town Law you can construct this road with town forces and
get re-imbursed by the developer because that is what_ it
says here and is that legal tinder State Town Law?
Unknown-Sure .
Councilman Monahan-Is it?
Unknown-As long its being reimbursed .
Mr. Broadway-Can it be restricted?
Councilman Monahan-Yea, we 've got to make sure that than
you can become a private road . . .
Councilman Montesi-Don ' t forget , we ' ve got a bigger
concept, 120 acres which this road is part of , is being
deeded to . . .
Unknown-Right, Town of Lake Luzerne .
169
Councilman Montesi.- Town. of Lake Luzeri)e , so they ' re going
to own the land and the road .
I
Councilman Potenza.-The land and the road. .
Councilman Monahan-But if they ' ve got a town road they
can' t close it off 12 months a year .
Councilman Montesi-I 'm riot arguing the point , I 'm -just
saying, all 120 acres are going to Luzerne and Queensbury .
Theoretically the road which theoretically is going to be
paved. which Ou.eensbury says they don' t, want to be, have
their park on, is going to be deeded to the Town of Lake
Luzerne . Now, whether they . . .
- Councilman Monahan-Not necessarily .
Councilman Montesi-Have limited access deeded road or a
. . . road , I don' t know.
Councilman Monahan-It can ' t be deeded to them or they 've
got to open it up .
Supervisor Borgos-It ' s got to be . . .
Councilman Potenza-There ' s a hand in the back that may
know somethinq .
Unknown-Can't you have , don' t municipalities in rural
areas have fire roads that. are for the use of the general
public that aren't public roads in .rights of ways in the
normal sense of a public road . . .
Supervisor Borgos-Not that I 'm aware of .
Councilman Monahan-What ' s that fire road over by, it used
to be , I don 't even know if its there now , Charlie Wood ' s
hotel , Howard Johnsons there? Remember the fire road in
there at one time?
Supervisor Borqos-Well there ' s an old road bed that still
belongs to -the Town of Uueensbury . But that . . .
Councilman Monahan-Than it wasn ' t back with fire . . . system
through there at one time . . .
Supervisor Borgos-No , that was Quaker Hill Road. . .
Unknown- . . . owned by the Town of Lake Luzerne , to be used
as an emergency road only.
Councilman Potenza-It sounds good to me , it ' s your town,
why can' t you do it?
Councilman Monahan-You've got to make sure what you're
doing is . . . law.
Supervisor Borgos-Let ' s ask the attorneys if it ' s legal .
Councilman Potenza-Betty , I ' m sorry but he ' s the
supervisor of the Town of Lake Luzerne .
Councilman Monahan-It doesn ' t matter , he can ' t break a
State Town law. We 've got to find out what the State Town
law lets them do .
Councilman Potenza-I do not know what the State Town Law
is , but if the gentlemen says he wants to do t.liat. do riot
worry about it .
Supervisor Borgos-Paul , the question is , is it legal for a
municipality to pave a. road, own the road and make it
available for emergency purposes only , to barracade it .
170
Unknown-I do riot think so .
I
Supervisor Borgos-I do not think so either .
Supervisor Grant--But the barracad.e would not necessarily
have to be on the entrance of that it could be on the
entrance of the private development which could be a
private road.
Supervisor Borgos-But , then you open up. . .
Councilman Monahan-Then you open up the 120 acres to all
the beer parties .
Supervisor Borgos-Then you have the party problem.
Supervisor Grant.-We do riot want that either , because that
is in our Town we have to police it .
Attorney Du.sek--I have a suggestion perhaps if the language
is bothersome what if a clause is put in that in the
event that Lake Luzer. ne does riot so construct the
emergency road it shall be the developers obligation to do
So .
Supervisor Borgos-Why don ' t we do better than that , that
the developer retains the title to that road .
Supervisor Grant-That is the easy way out .
Supervisor Borgos-That the developer retains the title .
Attorney Dusek-They have agreed to retain title .
Supervisor Borgos-I think that is the solution, and that
road will be secured otherwise you will have your parties
galore and you will never know that they are going on.
Supervisor Grant-We do not want that .
Councilman Monahan-And certainly Mike does not want that
either.
Mr . Krzys-If we are going to reimburse the town why don' t
we just build it and own it .
Supervisor Borgos-I think that is a wonderful idea .
Mr. Bradway-Steve , does that give the APA a way. . .
Mr . Krzys-No , it does not make any difference . . . .
Councilman Montesi-We should make the appropriate
adjustment in the deeded property from the 100 acres . . .
Councilman Potenza-98 or whatever . . .
Supervisor Borgos-You can take a little chunck out of the
rest of their land.
Councilman Potenza-Yes , that is all .
Supervisor Borgos-Item 9, it should say that the developer
will retain the title to the road, will pave and maintain
it . On page 25 Item number 9 . They pave it they maintain
it , everyone agrees that it should be secured for
emergency use only and then you do not have to come to
talk to us , as long we trot it agreed .
Attorney Krogmann-What we did on that , back to page 12 ,
it says in the event the entrance is in the Town of Lake
x '71
I,uzerne notwi i-listanding 1_1).e foregoinq , the Town of Lake
Lttzerne reserves the right to determine the manner of
securing the entrance , which entrance shall allow for, the
passage of emergency vehicles only .
Supervisor Borgos-Wonderful .
Attorney Krogmann-Now we have to go to 25 , 9 the
developer shall retain ownership of the emergency access
road and shall be responsible for the construction of the
same .
Supervisor Borgos-And maintenance . We are on page 25 , we
trot another change in a minute when we get a second .
. . .What time do you want to work to 10 or 10 : 30? . . . I
would be thrilled if we could all agree to start on page
one and flip quickly through .
Councilman Monahan-Why don' t we finish the one on page 25
that I would change . . .
Mr . Krzys-We did .
Councilman Monahan-No we got another one .
Supervisor Borgos-Betty has another proposal .
Councilman Monahan-If you remember we said we wanted to
lay out truck routes that these construction trucks are
_going to use because we have had so much problem with
those in the Town so I would suggest down at the end of 25
we add one more sentence , Such trucks would use a truck
route agreed to by said Town. We have a problem with
trucks filled full of gravel roaring through our
residential sections because it is a short cut for them
you know. We are having a real problem with it .
Councilman Diehl--Anything in your town you should have the
right to do .
Councilman Monahan-I said by said towns in case you have
that problem over in your town.
Councilman Diehl-We should have that same right , we agree .
No problem.
Attorney Dusek-Is this it Betty , said trucks . . .
Councilman Monahan-I thought it could be added as a last
sentence .
Unknown-Why can' t you say construction vehicles .
Councilman Monahan-Such trucks , yes , ok, will use a route
agreed to by said town.
Mr. Bradway-On page 12 we say that we will participate in
a program of construction traffic management which can
include , I would think include that . . .
Supervisor Borgos-It will. not do any harm to add that . . . to
reinforcing it a little brit .
. . .Lets , with everyones concurance begin on page one and
see if anybody has problems . I think we are just going to
call attention to those underlined sections , right .
Councilman Monanhan-I had a couple of other ones that are
not underlined .
Supervisor Borgos-Lets start on page one , no problems with
page one? Lets look at page two .
Councilman Monahan-We are using the big document .
Supervisor Borgos-February 8th.
172
Councilman Potenza-I am using the modifications because we
have already gone through the big document. .
Councilman Monahan-No , we have not . We never did go
though the big document , not this one, this is February
8th got those modifications right in it .
Supervisor Borgos-You know we would probably save a lot of
time if we lust worked on those modifications .
Councilman Monahan-But they do not make sense when you are
reading them just by themselves , you got to put them into
the context . You need to put them into the context .
Supervisor Borgos-I will just look around for concurrence
as we go through, page one, acceptable . Page 2 , no
problem, page 3 , if anybody has a problem just kind of
raise your hand we will do that . Page 4, page 5 , 5 we had
inserted that new language . . .Page 6, Page 7 .
Councilman Monahan-I had a problem Steve , not with what
it says but the way it is written, it has been so long
since I read this I am not quite sure .
Supervisor Borgos-Where .
Councilman Monahan-Down in 10 a, internal roads , I thought
we had a couple of unclear sentences in there , and it
starts with private roads within the development shall be
constructed to allow emergency vehicles proceeding in the
opposite direction to pass one another simultaneously . In
the event this occurs the Developer agrees not to contest
or cause to be contested the refusal to accept dedication
of private roads . That does not make sense at all .
Supervisor Borgos-It does not fit , something is missing .
Attorney Dusek-I think what it should have done is maybe
that sentence should go up before it starts with private
roads .
Councilman Monahan-I think so , yes , but it obviously is
not at the time I had it all figured out in my mind .
Supervisor Borgos-I think that is just a misplacement the
word processor can just kick it . The background of that
is that we did not want every road to be 50 ' or 100 ' wide
but you have to have two vehicles go by . That is page 7 ,
page 8
Councilman Monahan-Page 8 I thought we maybe ought to for
the Town' s liability add a sentence up there . Maybe you
will not agree, the fact that the property is located on a
private road it says that you are going to tell the
purchaser that and then I think also in that what your
written agreement thing to the purchaser should also state
and that the Town has no responsbility for said road. You
are saying it is a private road and that the Town has no
responsbility . People still think that we have
responsibilities and I am sure Luzerne has the same
problem.
Supervisor Borgos-I think that is a good idea .
Attorney Dusek-Does is say the fact that the road, that
the property is located on private road and that the town
has no responsbility . . .
Councilman Monahan-for said .road .
Councilman Montesi-But, one of the municipalities may have
responsbilities the water and or sewer lines . . .
Councilman Monahan-That does not mean that we do not have
173
any of the responsibilities faz the road itself ,
inotherwords we are saying to them if you have an accident
on the road don't sue us because we have no responsbility
on that road.
Attorney Krogmann-You are talking about somebody who is
not part of this agreement and we cannot preclude them
from sueing us , you are putting some language in there ,
maybe you want to put a hold harmless in that the
developer shall the hold the town something.
Councilman Monahan-All right whatever you think.
But it has got to be in there that we do not have any
responsbility.
Mr. Krzys-Where are we .
Supervisor Borgos-The top of page 8 .
Councilman Potenza-The end of the sentence , private road
first line .
Mr. Krzys-And we are going to put in the developer will
hold the town harmless is that it?
Supervisor Borgos-That would be wonderful .
Councilman Montesi-Hold harmless from what?
Supervisor Borgos-And indemnify .
Unknown-From any action.
Councilman Montesi-With regards to road accidents?
Unknown-In recard to the roads . .
Attorney Dusek-Any claims araising out of the use of said
roads something like that?
Supervisor Borgos-Ok, we got that language in. The
attornies are being satisfied. For the record I hope that
we do not have any other Planned Unit Developments this
year.
Councilman Montesi-We do , I would presume Earltown is
coming back.
Supervisor Borgos-All I know is what I read in the paper .
Mr. Krzys-We are on page 8?
Unknown- 9
Councilman Monahan-I just had a note on the side of 9, has
Corinth seen this , because they miulit want to approve a
traffic engineer that is working in their area.
Mr. Krzys-We have been through that with Corinth and
everyone else, that was taken care of a long time aqo .
Attorney Persi.co-We are supposed to be reviewing the
changes brought about by Luzerne . We are reviewing the
-.- whole contract . J
Councilman Monahan-As lead agency we have to be
responsible for everything . . . and Corinth . . . I am just
saying we put some stuff in -there I Just want to make sure
Luzerne had seen it .
Supervisor Grant-We are aware of it .
174
Councilman Moriahan-I do riot mean Lu.zerne , I mean Corinth I
am talking about , Corinth .
I
Supervisor Borgos-We are going to 9 now, we often go for
weeks on these . Corinth should get a copy of this prior
to the time we do whatever else has to be done to it, I
would think. . . . all the charities and everything. . .
Attorney Per. sico--I do not. think we are changing anything
now that would relate to them .
Supervisor Borgos-Let me ask you a further question, if, I
do not know if this is going to happen but if we get that
far tonight are both boards duly consit.uted this evening
to vote on this?
Attorney Krogmann-No .
Supervisor Borgos-I do not think so .
Attorney Kroqmann-We are duly constituted , we have told
the project developer and I think we discussed this at the
meeting that we want to take that action in Luzerne .
Supervisor Borgos-Ok, finished page 9 , page 10 do we have
anything?
Councilman Monahan-Just a typographical error , that is at
5 down near the bottom. Three sentences up, the t for the
Town of Queensbury should have been capatalized . I
thought 6 was an awfully run on sentence and it ought to
be rephased. Any sentence that is one , two , three , four,
five , six, seven, eight, nine , ten lines long in english I
was taught was not a very well constructed sentence .
Councilman Deihl-I thought you had made all your changes
previous to ours?
Councilman Monahan-I am just saying that I got .
Attorney Krogmann-You already approved this paragraph.
Supervisor Borgos-Lets look at number 11 .
Councilman Livingston-There is nothing underlined under
11 .
Councilman Deihl-Yes , there is .
Supervisor Borgos-Any problem with that? Going on to page
12 we have already made several changes , everyone is
satisfied that, that ' s set . Page 13 let me just read
that real quick. As we go through Mrs . Monahan has just a
couple language changes that would be wise to come back to
once we get all through here and polish it up a bit . Page
13 is OK .
Councilman Montesi-On page 13 you said that was a concern?
Attorney Krogmann-- It was a concern regarding a tap into
the wastewater treatment system which would not then allow
because using of the . . . . 100% of the project build out and
all this says is that we will concept to a tap in but
that it would still have to be a combination from 100%
build out .
Supervisor Borgos-This permits our water treatment plant
to go in if we want to up front early make the pipe bigger
and pay for it . Page 14 . . .
Councilman Potenza.-There was nothing corrected in 4 .
Supervisor Borgos-Yes there was . . .
`17 5
Councilman Potenza.-oh , in the discression of the
municipality .
Supervisor Borgos-It crave us a little bit more clout .
Supervisor. Grant-Just more clout, that is all .
Supervisor Borgos-So , you will not obect to that .
Supervisor Grant-Absolutely not .
Supervisor Borgos-Page 15 Calling everybod.ies attention
this is one agreement but this all of this is part of the
whole big picture , am I correct , all the documents kind of
go together .
Attorney Dusek-Some of these documents , right , the changes
that you are maki.nq in this document will have to be
incorporated also in the SEQRA finding statement .
Supervisor Borgos-But , beyond that if something is not, in
here doesn' t mean that it is .forgotten if it is in the
SEQRA document it is still automatically included in here
by reference , is that correct?
Attorney Dusek-The findings are , I think, this agreement
Steve was the basis from which we worked . You trot all
your SEQRA documents with the final E . I . S . and your
findings but this is the primary document then everything
that is in this document was swung over into the SEQRA
findings and also into the PUD legislation but if it is
not here , it probably is not in the other documents is
what I am trying to say.
Supervisor Borgos-The question that I will ask our
attorney the question from Mrs . Monahan on page 13 is
that, going back to 13 for a second, the underlined
portion, if for some reason there is a violation of the
Glens Falls standards she wants to be sure that the
agreement with Glens Falls specifically gives them the
right to do or not to do as far as significant industrial
users concept and other concerns will the agreement
between the City and West Mt . project the City and
Councilman Monahan-And protect us as far as because we are
saying you got to go to the sewage plant because it says
however no event shall such consent be unreasonably with
held and consent shall not be withheld if there is
sufficient waste water capacity, they may have sufficient
waste water capacity but they are not going to let them
put certain things into that sewer.
Councilman Montesi-We had that concern, we have a central
sewer district one of the significant users is CR Bard and
in order for CR Bard to put its effluent , waste water into
the Queensbury Sewer Dist. . and ultimately the sewer
treatment plant they had to do a mini seqra and it is not
something that is required by the Town or the City it is
required by DEC to, if you are going to run a sewer
treatment plant . They ran through the numbers and they, I
guess there was one chemical , I think it was acetone that
they were using in the cleaning process and they reviewed
it with SEQRA and ultimately they are in the sewer system,
there was a permitting process called a significant
industrial user it may or may not have any bearing on your
development until you get some industrial use up there but
there is a permitting process that you go through via the
City of Glens Falls Sewer Treatment Plant for significant
industrial users . . . .
Supervisor Borgos-Do we need to put in any other
language . . .
Attorney Dusek-. . . I am lost, I do not know where exactly
176
where we are or what the gltest.i.on .really is at this point .
Councilman {Monahan-Page 13
Councilman Montesi-Knowing that , what I just said . . .
Attorney Dusek-Where abouts on page 13 Betty .
Councilman Monahan-In that part the new language that has
been underlined.
Councilman Potenza-She is concerned about the capacity . . if
they have the capacity but they do not accept what they
want to . . .
Councilman Monahan-They have to meet certain standards
within their sewer system there is some types of sewage
that they cannot take .
Attorney Dusek-This clause does not really have anything
to do with that .
Councilman Monahan-I lust want to make sure that we are
not saying that Glens Falls won' t take what they are
trying to put in there because of the chemical make up of
it, then we are giving them a free a blank check to do
whatever they want to do .
Councilman Montesi-This clause represents down Corinth
Road and Northern Dist . saying we would like to come in,
Northern Dist . wants to come in. . .
Councilman Monahan-I iust want to make sure it cannot be
used in another way .
Attorney Dusek-I understand your question if I can Just
take a moment now to read this . . .
Councilman Montesi-What happens is that that industry has
to do a pre-treatment before they put it in and remove
whatever heavy metals or whatever . . .
Mr . Brandt- . . .regulated by State law.
Supervisor Borgos-Can' t we put a little something in there
that says the developers agrees to comply with the SIU
provisions set forth in the agreement with the City of
Glens Falls .
Unknown-This is not the developer , we are talking about a
third party discharging into this system.
Supervisor Grant-We are not talking about the project we
are talking about people tapping in. . .
Attorney Dusek-I take Betty ' s question to mean this , that
she has read the first part of the agreement on page 12
into 13 and it says that the waste water has to go to
Glens Falls and that is all it just generally says . What
if the reason is that the Glens Falls will not take the
waste water is that it is a hazard.eous nature or it is
unacceptable . Does that now , give them the right to build
an alternative system?
Councilman Monahan-That is exactly what I am getting at . . .
Councilman Potenza-What it gives them a right to do is
reject that business on Corinth Road from tapping in to
the line .
Councilman Montesi-What it forces that industry to do in
order to comply is to primarily treat that effluent is .
X77
Councilman Potenza-Before it does into the pipe .
Councilman" Montesi-We had some concerns for a major
industry in our town and for some reason the city said no
we are not going to accept that, what would be the
alternative , the alternative was they would put a primary
treatment in, just_ like Ciba Geigy had a primary treatment
system.
Councilman Monahan-I Just do not want them to intrepret
it some other way .
Attorney Dusek- . . . at its sole expense , it is understood
and agreed that the developer will treat the water as may
be necessary for it to comply . . .
Councilman Potenza-It. is not the developer , this addresses
anybody that is going to pug into the line aoinc_r from the
Mt . to the Glens Falls waste water.
Attorney Dusek-There are two concerns here . The developer
being able to go the secondary system because Glens Falls
will not accept it hazardous waste then there is the other
concern about the third party that may dump into the
system. In the first instance if we address the developer
and just simply say at the end of the first sentence on
page 12 , right after sole expense , we are going to say. . .
Attorney Krogmann-It. is the intent that the waste water
from the project site shall be
Attorney Dusek-treated as necessary
Attorney Krogmann-treated as required by the City of Glens
Falls . . .
(tape turned)
Supervisor Borgos-Do the attornies want to read what you
- got?
Attorney Dusek-You may have to just slightly revise that
language , I think that works , the intent here is that they
understand that they are going to have to treat their
waste or do whatever is necessary for Glens Falls to take
it . Just because they do not want to treat it does not
mean they now get a chance to put in a . . . system . .
Supervisor Borgos-I am glad that issue was raised. 14 we
had no problem, 15 , no problem 1.6 there were a. number of
changes .
Councilman Monahan-No this one did not have a chanq_ e I
just thought it ought to be in there .
Supervisor Borgos-Any problem with that, I see no hands ,
17
Councilman Monahan-I just suggested to Steve that there
ought to be another sentence in there that the water
connection, when the Town of Luzerne ' s water district
connects to the water coming from the Town of Queensbury
that our water dept . has the approval of that connection.
To make sure it is compat.able with our system.
Supervisor Borgos-I do not think anyone would argue , where
would we put it?
Councilman Monahan-I would say right in there where we are
talking about I it , construction costs are guaranteed.
Attorney Dusek-That ' s better .
173
Councilman Montesi-How c~a.n It rant be compa.table?
Councilman Monahan-I talked to Ralph about that , and there
is a possi.'bility we were ta.lk..i_ng about some systems around
here that connect and he said , there is sometimes that you
could have a problem.
Mr. Krzys-This line is going in, it seems to me it ' s going
to go in all at. 'one time it ' s going to connect between
the two Towns .
Councilman Monahan-They are going to have a meter box
there or whatever_ they call it , I don' t know enough about
that stuff .
Supervisor Borgos-From that point on it would be taken --
care of by the Lake Luzerne Water Department. .
Mr. Krzys-Right . Where do we put the languacre in?
Supervisor Borgos-I f_ou.nd a. spot where it might go in..
Page 17 , Item #4 , the Developer shall be responsible for
any and all capital cost of construction of said water
system which shall be installed under the supervision and
approval of the Town of Queensbury Water Department , but
let the Attorney ' s ficrure it out , but riqht there
probably .
Attorney Krocrmann-Why don' t we go all the way down to the
end of the sentence request and Just say, it shall. be the
responsibility of the Developer .
Supervisor Borgos-Whole separate sentence?
Attorney Krogmann-Yeah. That all cost associated shall be
born by the Developer?
Councilman Monahan-You have to get the Town of Queensbury
Water Department approval of that connection from. . .
Supervisor Borgos-It probably should be the Superintendent
of the Water Department until they have (a) person making
a decision whom ever that person may be .
Attorney Dusek-What if you said right after where it says
water system, which system shall be compatable with the
Town of Queensbury Water System as determined by the Water
Superintendent?
Supervisor Borgos-Wonderful .
Attorney Dusek-Is that all right?
Councilman Monahan-Of the Town of Queensbury?
Supervisor Grant-Yes .
Supervisor Borgos-Ready to go to the next page? We ' re
looking at Page 18 , and T think we 've taken care of that .
Page 19 .
Supervisor Grant-Page 19 .
Supervisor Borgos-Stormwater management . I have no
problem with that .
Supervisor Grant-Okay , good. We appreciate that .
Supervisor Borgos-We appreciate you doing it . You didn' t-
take out to much of our language , I know you added some .
Councilman Deihl-We added mostly .
Supervisor Grant-We tightened it up.
179
Supervisor Borgos--Good, appr-eciate the help .
Councilman Deihl-We used your expertises and then improved
it .
Supervisor Borgos-That sounds terrific .
Councilman Monahan.-That ' s how things get done though .
Supervisor Borgos-That would make you the expert , but.
that ' s all right . Paqe 20 , any problem?
Supervisor Grant-No .
Attorney Kroqmann-Page 19 , we ' re adding paragraph ( j )
right? Betty, wanted to bring ( j ) from the other page up
there on Paqe 27?
Councilman Monahan-Yeah .
Supervisor Borgos-We are just so confident that you guys
are picking those up . Page 21 was okay?
Councilman Monahan-Page 21 , you have a ty+raphical error
again . On (B) three sentences from the bottom of (B) you
have the Town for Town of Queensbury with a small (t)
again. I 've got some things circled and I know it ' s old
stuff, but when you read it the second time . Approvals
not to held . I don' t know why I 've wri_tt.en this that ' s why
I 'm reading it to myself . I 'm not sure the word
"performace bond" is the right word there .
Mr. Broadway-Take out the word performance?
Councilman Monahan-Yeah . Because you have your labor and
meterials and all these other kind of bonds too .
Attorney Dusek-Where does it appear?
Councilman Monahan-(C ) Approvals not to be Withheld .
Supervisor Borgos-The second. line under that .
Attorney Dusek-Yes , I think you need to take out the word
performace then.
Supervisor Borgos-Everyone agrees to strike that?
Everyone-Yes .
Supervisor Borgos-Mrs . Monahan is going to send a bill .
I 'm glad you read this final copy throughly . Mrs .
Monahan, is raising an issue here related specifically to
building permits . In here it says , neither Town shall
withold it ' s approval or permit for any phase . I think
what this is intended to mean is that , the Planning Board
will not withhold it ' s approvals . It is not necessarily,
I don ' t think intended to mean that our Building
Department will be less than strict with all the
construction.
Councilman Monahan-But , could it be construde that way
Paul , in a court of law?
Attorney Krogmann-It says , subject to receive no other
require governmental approvals and permits .
Supervisor Borgos-So that should clearly take care of all
the building permits .
Attorney Krogmann-That way out in one of the locations and
we put it back in.
180
Councilman Monahan-As .long as there is no way that it can
be construde the building permits and +-.1)at was my problem
with that . ,
Supervisor. Borgos-Page 22 .
Councilman Monahan-Attain, as I reread this . . . . over the
Town shall have xio more than two years to undertake
improvements . I want to know from when and for what.
scope? I think two years , what are we measuring the two
years from.
Supervisor Borgos-I think that ' s in here .
Mr. Krzys-From the time the improvements initiate it or has
been approved.
Supervisor Borqos-From the time the guarantee the payments
are submitted if two years after we get the money or
guarantees . The worse that could happen is that we refund
the money.
Mr. Brandt--You have two years to start them within a
reasonable time frame .
Attorney Dusek- . . . me if want this language here saying
two years from the posting of guarantees .
Councilman Monahan-It seems to me that it ' s a little fuzzy
that ' s why I said that .
Supervisor Borgos-You probably want to add an (s) to the
word year to make it plural as long as we 're looking at
everything.
Councilman Monahan-Who ' s going to determine a reasonable
period of time?
Attorney Dusek-Where is that at now?
Councilman Monahan-And shall complete such improvement
within a reasonable period of time . I know all Attorney ' s
told me they love those words like reasonable and a few
others .
Attorney Dusek-I like it because I think it ' s to our
benefit .
Councilman Monahan-Okay . As long as your comfortable with
it .
Attorney Dusek-We ' re holding the money .
Supervisor Borgos-Going ahead on Page 23 . Page 23 is
okay? Just look at the underline is really the crux of
this whole review.
Attorney Krogmann-There is language on the bottom of it on
that joint recreational facility between the two
muncipalities .
Supervisor Borgos-To explore and study the possibility of a
joint it ' s not tying in. anybody at the moment and it may
not come about . Page 24 .
Councilman Potenza-We already did that .
Councilman Montesi-Do you want to take a look at (6) and
reduce that from 100 to maybe 85 ( + ) or (-) .
Councilman Potenza-We have 100 (+) or ( -) so that ' s all
right .
Supervisor Borgos-Page 25 , we 've already taken care of
that , I think. Page 26 .
Councilman , Potenza-No problem. Page 27 , no problem.
Supervisor Borgos-You probably say that about Page 40 . Paae
27 , any concerns?
Supervisor Grant-Hey, we ' re amost at the end .
Councilman Monahan-Don' t forget Page 25 , we made some
changes on. Page 26, I think you have some bad. engli.sh .
Attorney Krogmann-Which you' ve already approved .
Councilman Monahan-I know it , but I still think it ' s bad .
-- Down at the very bottom of the page . I think you should
say, the lighting except ±hat used on the ski trails will
be that which is commonly known as hooded lights . I think
your english there is very bad .
Supervisor Borgos-Anyone feel a compelling need to change
that language?
Councilman Potenza-No .
Councilman Monahan-I don' t think it makes sense the way it
is if you want the god ' s honest truth .
Supervisor Borgos-You can almost get rid of the that . The
Developer agrees any outdoor lighting used upon the sight ,
and just keep out the , "that. is"?
Councilman Potenza-Whatever. makes you. happy .
Councilman Monahan-Take out what?
Supervisor Borgos-Take out- the words , " that is" . The
Developer agrees that any outdoor lighting used upon the
sight of the PUD/PDD would be of a. nature that . We would
lust get rid of the words , "that is" .
Supervisor Borgos-You can take the " it" out too . In the
nature that will not allow light to directly shine .
Councilman Potenza-You better tell the Attorney .
Supervisor Borgos-Mr. . Attorney, we 're going to strike
three words in that paragraph on Page 26 .
Attorney Dusek-Page 26 , which paragraph?
Councilman Potenza-Paragraph I .
Supervisor Borgos-It should now read, the Developer agrees
that any outdoor lighting used upon the sight of the
PUD/PDD will be of a nature that will , take out the word
"it" , that will not allow light to directly shine in any
other area than the ground . That ' s acceptable get rid of
three little words . Page 27 , any major concerns?
Councilman Potenza-We ' ve crone through this .
Supervisor Borgos-Page 28?
Councilman Monahan-Wait a minute , I ' ve got a question down
here . I have to ask Paul .
Supervisor Borgos-We have to wait for the Attorney ' s to
finish their conference . I dust want to call it to
everyone ' s attention when we get a minute . Betty, you
had some problems .
Councilman Monahan-Maybe you. can answer this . Will you
explain what that graph means , I don ' t know how to ready
this in otherwor_ds .
Supervisor, Borgos-This is assuming different splits . I
think the first number- is the Exit 18 number_ and the
second number is the Exit 16 number , is that correct?
Councilman Monahan-This is Exit 18 .
Supervisor Borgos-If that. is- the way it goes then you will
be at Level B.
Councilman Monahan-What does split 85/15 mean?
Supervisor Borgos-85 per cent of the traffic get off at
Exit 18 , 15 per cent get off at Exit 16 .
Councilman Monahan-That ' s what. I wanted to know . I didn' t
know how to read it .
Supervisor Borgos-I think. we ' re nearing the conclusion we
have a couple of more quick items . Pai-0 , Betty has a
concern on Page 28 , I don' t, know what it is yet .
Councilman Monahan-I .just have a question to ask you. If
we sign all of these agreements and West Mountain doesn' t
go forward with this and we given all these rights and all
this kind of stuff, is this still binding on the Towns
fifty years from now regardless of what happens in the
meantime if they haven ' t done anything to implement this
Development?
Attorney Dusek-No . Your PUD Legislation that ' s on the
books has a time provision in it. and this agreement has
extended that I think one year .
Attorney Persico-From one to two years .
Attorney Dusek-Your law automatically terminates this .
Supervisor Borgos-The next item to come to our attention
on Schedule B, Item 4 , the last paragraph of the bottom
discusses the fire issues that we 've talked about before
and Dana has just brought this to my attention. I think
the way it is okay because it refers to paragraph 10E,
which is being redone . This sets forth all the
improvements they 've agreed to make . I think this will
take care of itself .
Supervisor Grant-Okay.
Supervisor Borgos-Before we go we want to thank you for
coming over.
Supervisor Grant-We thank you for having us .
Supervisor Borgos-We appreciate the heat that you've
brought with you.
Councilman Montesi-When do we approve individually what
we 've done tonight?
Supervisor Borgos-Sometime before Christmas .
Councilman Deihl-We all now all in agreement of all of the
changes? -
Councilman Potenza.-Exactly .
Attorney Krogmann-Work on the language of Fire Protection,
Paul , and I , and Dick will do that . When that is in
agreement I guess will be able to act .
Supervisor Borgos-Our next regi_i.lar Board meeting is Feb .
26th, we may not be able to get. it done by then if you can.
183
great .
Councilmah Potenza-There is no need to through this page
by page , am I correct Boal:d. members?
Councilman Deihl-That ' s right we 've been through it.
Supervisor Borgos=We ' ll be looking at the two paragraphs
that they have to draft and then we have to vote we
haven' t yet voted.
Supervisor Grant-We can do it at a special meeting prior
or the sametime .
Attorney Persico-Before we leave tonight after we have
gone through all of this Steve , it seems
that the two Town
Boards ought to at least for the record assert that chance
lease agreement on a. contract .
Supervisor Borgos-I think that the Town of Lake Luzerne
doesn ' t want to do that .
Attorney Persico-I 'm not asking for a vote . I think just
for the record. Conceptually they ' ve agreed subject to
both counts taken formal action to adopt it at the
appropriate time . But, I think for the record so we don' t
have to go and open it all up again.
Supervisor. Borgos--Let me just ask our Attorney if he would
agree to that . We spend too much time in court now.
Attorney Dusek-I think_ is still works though, you are
right it probably could be written better but I think it
still works .
Councilman Monahan-I just thought you might want to go
over this and see if you wanted to do better english .
Supervisor Borgos-We need your opinion . Mr. Persico has
recommended that we leave here tonight with the
understanding that both boards by consensus would agree
that we conceptually accepted the changes and the
compromises involved in the great compromise that
Queensbury made so far and that we are not going to be
bound by anything until the vote takes place but as of
this moment everybody conceptually agrees with the
document the way it is .
Attorney Dusek-I think to take it one step further, as I
understood it Dick and I lust had a brief conversation a
few minutes ago , he thought it might be , I will blame you
for this I guess , but , if you recall. the last time that
the Board met when we had gone through all the changes
that were made in the documents I read all the changes
back and the Board said yes that is it . Dick thought that
might be a good idea and I think that is what he is
thinking in terms of making sure everybody is in agreement
with that language with the understanding that the only
other language that is not done , I guess is the fire
protection.
Mr. Brandt-We are aoing to finish that yet tonight the
attornies have agreed to stay a little longer.
Supervisor Borgos-Mrs . Monahan would like and I would
agree I would like to see those changes in writing. It
probably could be done for Monday , I do not know.
Mr. Krzys-What happens is you read the language on Monday,
and you say one thing and then it goes to Lake Luzerne and
they change one or two words does that mean you have to
both of us together again just to change two or three or
four words?
184 1
Supervisor Borgos-I do riot know, I think we have got to
see the language .
r
Councilman Monahan-We have got to see the hard copy .
Supervisor Grant-We have to go with our Attorney because
he knows our desires , if he approve it we will approve it .
Mr . Krzys-What I am concerned about it not that, their
Board meets seperately , they see the language .
Supervisor Grant-But the two att.ornies are writings the
language and . . .
Unknown-I do not think they are going to go against what
their own attornies recommend.
Unknown-There is that possibility .
Attorney Krogmann-I think we are different from the first
time , when that happen because now we are all together and
we have gone through these together .
Mr . Krzys-All I am saying is Dave , you and Paul . . .we both
agree now, Paul is going to go back to the Board Meeting
in Queensbury and read the language and Betty is going to
make some changes and she said I do not like the wording
this way or that way, in the meantime you are going back
to Lake Luzerne, you got language and you keep it the way
it is and now you do not have a contract that conforms
because in one place you have a different word. . . .
Supervisor Borgos-What day is their meeting?
Supervisor Grant-Tuesday.
Supervisor Borgos-Our meeting is Monday. .
Councilman Montesi-Why don' t we have a joint special
meeting with Luzerne up there . —
Attorney Dusek-Can I ask the Board members this , maybe
this would help address the developers concern. My
understanding is that we have tonight agreed upon all of
the changes that will be made to the contract first of
all , second of all there has been specific language that
Dave and I have worked at from time to time based upon
what we heard here and we also from time to time read it
back to everybody, it is my assumption that all the
language is acceptable and really the only thing that,
may cause any kind of problems at all would be the fire
language because we have not written that yet .
Councilman Monahan-So , how can be approve of it until we
see it . That is what. I am saying I am not going to
approve of something I do not see .
Supervisor Grant-You are going to meet before we do and if
you approve it , we are going to have a pretty good idea
what it is anyway.
Mr . Krzys-Steve , because -the only language that seems not
to be squared away is if we adjourn for five to ten
minutes . . .
Supervisor Borgos-Five to Ten minutes last time took an
hour and a quarter.
Mr . Krzys-Fifteen minutes , by quarter of or something like
that if they can agree on that read it to everybody if it
is all agreeable then all the language is agreeable in
this thing .
Supervisor Borgos-Normally I would go along with that but
ir
I am concerned that since this was such a very hot topic $5
that we probably see it in writing and it will take at
least an hour that is a. very long section. It will take
an hour Ito prepare that .
Attorney Persico-Then it is guaranteed that we will go
through half another round .
Supervisor Bongos-Should not .
Attorney Persico-I cannot believe that whatever language
Paul puts in front of you Monday , won ' t be changed .
Councilman Potenza-That is right .
Councilman Monahan-He and David is going to get together
on it and they can certainly be in direct communication. . .
Unknown--They will get t0 gether , they will read a. language
I could be in on it and I will agree to that language and
then when it comes to you Monday night for a. vote .
Councilman Monahan-Paul , will get this to us before Monday
night , we do not see that for tl)e first time Monday
night . . .
Supervisor Borgos-Probably not until Monday afternoon.
Councilman Monahan-I refuse to approve something in
concept that I have to see in writings . I have been
trained by too many Attor_ nies .
Councilman Montesi-How many words are you going to change
in that, it looked like . . .
Attorney Krogmann-I am _just reflip the language , the idea
is to flip the language and make it in the alternative .
Mr. Brandt-Can we do that this evening_ while we are all
together.
Unknown-As Steve says , if everybody wants to spend another
hour it will probably take an hour to do that .
Mr. Brandt-So what is an hour, you know it is three
years .
Supervisor Borgos--What is the pleasure of the Boards?
(Boards agreed to spend extra. hour)
Temporary recess . . .
(Boards reviewed the written comments from the
Attornies . . . )
Supervisor Borgos-Page 2 the second paragraph just to make
it perfectly clear the last line of the second paragraph,
such needs shall be in the discretion of the Town Board
of the Town effected, I think you have to give it to
somebody . Other than that I am very pleased . We all
agree . . .Does everyone agree to that change, is that
acceptable? (All agreed)
It has been requested that this group, these two bodies
acknowledge conceptual agreement with what is here and it
would be our understanding that obviously we want to the
right to look it over again over the weekend but I think I
will vote in favor of this .
RESOLUTION REGARDING, CONCEPTUAL, APPROVAL OF CHANGES TO
WEST MT. PUD
186 ;
RESOLUTION NO. 125b Introduced by Mr. Ronald Montesi who
moved for its adoption., seconded by Mrs . Marilyn Potenza:
RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbu.ry
acknowledges conceptual agreement with the documents as
presented and changed at this meeting of February 22 , 1990
and be it further
RESOLVED, that the Board .reserves the right to review
these documents before the final voi:e at the next Town
Board Meeting.
Duly adopted this 22nd day of February , 1990 by the
following vote :
Ayes : Mrs . Potenza, Mr . Montesi , Mrs . Monahan, Mr. Borgos —
Noes : None
Absent : None
Supervisor Borgos-The next meeting of this Board will be
held on Monday, February 26th, to do our regular Town
Board business which will probably take five or six hours
and will have additional. meetings nest week as may be.
necessary .
Supervisor Grant-Introduced a motion to his Board
regarding the same , motion passed .
Supervisor Borgos-Noted that a Special Town Board
meeting will be held on February 26 , 1990 at 7 : 00 p .m. in
the Supervisor ' s Conference Room for the West Mt . PUD
only, Regular Session will be held at the Queensbury
Center 7 : 30 p .m.
On motion, the meeting was adlourned .
RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED,
MISS DARLEEN M. DOUGHER
TOWN CLERK
TOWN OF QUEENSBURY