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2003-05-06 SP SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING JOINT MEETING WITH QUEENSBURY PLANNING BOARD AND OPEN SPACE COMMITTEE MAY 6, 2002 MTG. #21 7:00 p.m. TOWN BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT SUPERVISOR DENNIS BROWER COUNCILMAN ROGER BOOR COUNCILMAN THEODORE TURNER COUNCILMAN DANIEL STEC COUNCILMAN TIM BREWER PLANNING BOARD MEMBERS CHAIRMAN CRAIG MACEWAN MEMBER ALAN ABBOTT MEMBER ANTHONY METIVIER MEMBER ROBERT PALING MEMBER CATHERINE LABOMBARD MEMBER LARRY RINGER MEMBER ROBERT VOLLARO OPEN SPACE COMMITTEE LINCOLN CATHERS CATHERINE LABOMBARD JOHN STROUGH JAMES UNDERWOOD BARBARA WOOD ALEX HALL Supervisor Brower-Thanked the Open Space Committee. To have an Open Space scenario, committee to meet and formulate their view of the Town and to try and get as much citizen input as possible through the process. That has been our goal and continues to be our goal we hope it is reflective of the views of the community and that the community will support the plan. This evening the joint public hearing is being conducted by the Queensbury Town Board, the Queensbury Planning Board and the Open Space Committee. If Linc Cathers would start off I would like to have everyone introduce themselves. Lincoln Cathers Open Space, Catherine LaBombard Open Space also Queensbury Town Planning Board Representative, John Strough Open Space, James Underwood Open Space, Barbara Sweet Open Space, Alex Hall Open Space Committee, Darleen Dougher Town Clerk, Tim Brewer Town Board Councilman Ward 4, Dan Stec Town Board Councilman Ward 3, Marilyn Ryba Planning Staff, Chris Round Director of Community Development, Ted Turner Tow Board Councilman Ward 2, Dennis Brower Town Supervisor, Roger Boor Town Board Ward 1, Larry Ringer Planning Board, Craig MacEwan Planning Board, Anthony Metivier Planning Board, Bob V ollaro Planning Board, Dick Sandford Planning Board, Chris Hunsinger Planning Board, Tom Segulijic Planning Board. I would like to mention that Craig MacEwan is the Chairman of the Planning Board and Barb Sweet is the Chairman of the Open Space Committee. I want to thank the Open Space Committee in particular for working on this program. I want to thank Marilyn Ryba and Chris Round for their efforts and their outreach and John Beehan of Planning Associates did I get that right, Beehan Planning Associates LLC. for their participation in helping as a consultant on this plan. Most importantly I want to thank members of the public who have been participating throughout this particular plan for more than a year. The outreach attempt started with a tour a trolley tour of the Town of Queensbury. We toured every part of Queensbuy and looked at the many resources and the community as a whole and it took a whole day for the planning committee and Chris and Marilyn and a number of Board Members to go around the community and see what resources we had and see what beauty we had in the Town of Queensbury. Then we had a large meeting at Adirondack Community College where we had over two hundred participants members of the public come to talk about a vision their vision of the Town of Queensbury what they would like to see ideally preserved. The plan is an ambitious plan, will all aspects of the plan be implemented? Possibly not. However, I do think it provides a framework a basis for where we can start. Part of the plan indicates that the Open Space Committee would be a permanent committee of the town board and that is part of one of the proposals in the Open Space Plan. With that I would like to, I think I failed to have everyone stand and say the Pledge of Allegiance so if you would join me and stand and say the Pledge of Allegiane I would appreciate it. (Pledge of Allegiance) Supervisor Brower-With that I would like to introduce Marilyn Ryba and Chris Round who are going to give you a short presentation which will detail some of the background and planning ideas that have gone into this draft plan. Executive Director of Community Development Chris Round-I am Chris Round and Marilyn Ryba has introduced herself. We are going to try to give you a really quick synopsis not of the process that we have been thorough we have done that at a number of occasions we apologize if you haven't seen one of those forums. It is well detailed in our documents that we have up here up front for you but we are going to just talk about a little bit of results and the vision that is contained in the document. Then we are going to close our portion of the presentation and then what we want to do we want to hear from the public tonight, that is what this is, a public hearing, you will be asked to provide your comments and if you are not able to make them tonight we invite you to make them throughout, we anticipate a thirty day comment period and then we will talk a little bit about how the process is going to move forward from that point. But, Marilyn has got some documents and if you want to raise your hand if you want somthing we will try to get around to you and give you some information. I will try not to read all these slides but we made this presentation as part of an afternoon public hearing that was conducted solely by the Open Space Committee but this slide just kind of depicts what I think what many of the residents that we talked to throughout the year and a half, two year process that they value about the Town. All planning processes start out with a vision and from a vision comes goals and objectives and specific action items. All, tonight we are presenting to you tonight are some vision items. Anything that comes out of our visioning process is some individual projects that we would like to explore further and any exploration of any additional project there is going to be a public participation component of any of those projects. But, this vision is just captured by the Open Space Committee after some thought and consultation with staff and we think it notes nicely what we are off to achieve. As Dennis mentioed there is a listing of all our Open Space Committee Members they are not all here tonight, some of them have other comments. It has been a long process and it has been tens if not hundreds of hours of their volunteer time these are all representatives from the community, landowners, business people a very good cross section that was appointed by the Town Board back in 2001 of this year. This slide just kind of quickly notes it is not an exhaustive listing we do have an exhausting list of all the outreach events that we have conducted throughout this session the credit goes to Marilyn to coordinate many of these items. Dennis mentioned the town tour. We have been on TV8 at least four or five times through various venues. We did do a design workshop that Dennis mentioned on a Saturday, a rainy Saturday afternoon or Saturday morning that many people attended. We chose to use focus group meetings. Focus groups are basically smaller collection of individuals that we think share a common concern or commoninterest and we met with six or eight different focus groups meetings trying to represent large land owners, trying to represent the builder developer community trying to develop environmental groups, citizen activist property presentation or property right activist those people were all invited to a series of meetings that we conducted at the Chamber of Commerce. We want to thank the Chamber, Barbara Sweet is a member of the Chamber or staff person for the Chamber of Commerce. We thought that was very effective thing to do because many things that are conducted within the confines of the Town a certain attitude comes to the table when you do business within the town and so what we are trying to remove ourselves from this forum so that people would have a freedom to express themselves in a different forurn. I think it was a very successful, it was a very interactive process. We reached out to the schools, we were lucky, John Strough is also a school teacher and we were able to meet with High School Studentsand get their opinions, we thought that was an excellent way to do that, there are some other venues that we pursued. The next couple of slides talk about approach the plan, the guide for future actions, as Dennis said not everything is going to be committed, exactly is the way it is articulated. Plans evolve, plans are a process, the document that you have that we have copies for you up front is something that is going to evolve over time. Things change with time opportunities present themselves, impediments are imposed and something that we are looking for flexibility as we go through this process. The next two slides is a volunteer program, no mandates, I think that is something that we have expressed it is something that the Open Space Committee and the Town Board especially has been very sensitive to do, sensitive to, were founded on willing participation of the owners and the community. I think there are some misconceptions that this plan is a mandate that is going to require the Town to go and contol a certain land mass or to acquire properties where there is not a willing seller. That is not the case that this is something that this Board and especially our Open Space Committee is very sensitive to. This is the heart of the recommendations and just a couple more minutes we will touch on some of these. Marilyn mentioned I think, or Dennis mentioned establishing the Open Space Committee as a permanent group. Throughout the process participants have been very frustrated that projects are initiated and not completed. We think one of the ways to alleviate ourselves from that problem is to establish a board that is specifically focused on the types of projects that we are going to talk about. The second thing and this is something that is very important I know to Marilyn and myself, is that we need to make sure the investments are made in our green infrastructure we have seen the town undergo tremendous growth over the last fifteen years and we, just recently, we made significant investments in sewer nd water infrastructure on the order often and twenty million of dollars. We need to make those same kind of investments in our other amenities other infrastructure and in this case, we are talking about open space we are talking about green infrastructure. We want to make sure that those kind of investments are made so that we do leave a legacy that we are all proud of when we leave our place of work here. One of the softer or one of the more quietly spoken recommendations here is we have several resources that are very open space friendly and some of you may chuckle but our golf course, our, I am out of power Marilyn if you would just talk about open space friendly resources. Senior Planner Marilyn Ryba-One of the things that we thought about is that what are some of the areas that people may take for granted and we see a lot of open space with our golf courses, when we travel up the Northway we see West Mountain and the ski area there and it really is, I think when you are coming home from somewhere you see West Mountain and you say ok, this is Queensbury. What would happen if any of those developments, one of any of those open space areas were developed so we wanted to think of ways to try to keep those areas open and keep those areas green. So, we are open to suggestions there as well. Chris is going to be, technical difficulties here rebooting. This gives me an opportunity to make a couple of comments, one of the things and I would like to step back just a little bit because I think what you will hear, you will hear a lot of different ideas about projects and what does that mean? What does open space mean? I would like to read a definition because what we heard from the pblic was a lot of different ideas about open space. This is taken actually from New York State Open Space Conservation Plan, because it really seemed to fit the bill. For purposes of this plan open space is defined as land which is not intensively developed for residential, commercial, industrial or institutional use. Open space can be publicly or privately owned. It includes agricultural and forest land undeveloped shore lines, undeveloped scenic lands, public parks and preserves. It also includes water bodies such as lakes and bays. Wetland is defined as open space, depends in part on its surroundings. A vacant lot or a small marsh can be open space in a big city a narrow corridor path way for walking or bicycling is open space even though it is surrounded by developed areas. And while not strictly open space this plan also discusses cultural and historical resources which along with open space are part of the heritage of New York State. So, we will be talking about ideas for pathways, we will be taking about ideas for a gateway center. I wanted to stress, that all we have tried to do is consolidate and bring some consensus from twenty five thousand four hundred and eleven people who live in the Town of Queensbury and that is a really difficult job to do. So, we wanted to stress too, that these are not staff ideas these were generated from what we heard from the public. Certainly not everyone is going to agree with that and we understand that and with that said, here is Chris. Executive Director Round-Here is some of the more notable planned concepts or recommendations and we will talk a little bit about each of these in subsequent slides. What came out is the Town is very fortunate to have several large areas that are already protected in some form and we need to formulize that protection and provide improved access to what we are calling nature preserves and multiuse areas. Marilyn mentioned and I think the Parks and Rec Department understands that there is a need for additional land and water trails and we have several. We are lucky to have the Hudson River right here in our backyard and we should take advantage of that as a recreational resource. Historic and Cultural resources and Marilyn mentioned this gateway education center that has gotten alot of press already. This is a copy of the map. It is very difficult to render. Some people have noted I need some more streets. I want to know what parcels are affected and it was specifically designed to display concepts and not This is a very difficult process, a concept for the general public to understand, at times is that these are ideas and with ideas they are very conceptual in nature and so it is very difficult to render them in any kind of exact detail that we are used to getting our hands around. We are always overloaded with information and this is meant to display concepts and not specific project itself. We mentioned nature preserves and multiuse areas we think there is a tremendous opportunity and there is already some activity going on to look at the Rush Pond, Glen Lake fen area. If you are not familiar with that, that is the pond that you see that is opposite Great Escape on the 187 corridor. It is a tremendous resource it is also connected hydraulically to the Glen Lake fen which is the headwaters for Glen Lake itself. It is important from an environmental perspective, it is important from a water resource perspective, and it is basically the way those areas go so goes the water quality of Glen Lake. So, it s a very important thing that we need to focus on. Great Escape had during its environmental review process offered conservation easements on a portion of land that it controls along Rush Pond and we need to take a formal advantage of that opportunity and play that forward and look toward a very grand large low intensity use area along Rush Pond and the Glen Lake fen. Halfway Brook and the City of Glens Falls water shed lands this particular concept came up in a, it has come up in public dialog for the last twenty years. It has gotten alot of attention over the last ten years with the City's examination of its water alternatives. Most recently it was identified probably as the most frequently advocated project in a survey that was conducted by either the Queensbury Land Conservancy. The Queensbury Land Conservancy is unaffiliated with the Town, it is a not-for-profit organization whose focus is looking at ways to and I am not going to butcher their mission statement not going to quote it to you. They areinterested in preserving the towns heritage when it comes to open spaces and so they are looking at probably taking an advocacy role in that issue. Big Cedar Swamp, Big Cedar Swamp is six hundred acres area along the Warren County Airport is a very unique landform and ecological environment. It is worthy of preserving as well as enhancing access to. We talk about, a little about, these things here some of the concepts that we have noted about the Rush Pond preserve, trails and outdoor classroom for Queensbury School. We mentioned we need to partner with Glens Falls to determine long term use of that, I think informal usage of the watershed has been ongoing for as long as the land has been there, it has been restricted and policed more actively and it is a trespass issue it is private property in that it is held by the City of Glens Falls and use of that land is prohibited. What we need to do is engage the City and look at how do we legalize and how do we formalize access and use of that land that is consstent with the City's need to preserve its watershed. Mentioned Big Cedar swamp it is the only land that is listed on the New York State Open Space Plan. Hopefully we will be able to obtain funding for that because it is listed on that plan. The other thing, this is not an exhausted inventory of all the areas some people that have participated in the process said, well I mentioned such and such a resource it is not on the plan. Well, we need to do additional inventory work and that is an on going thing and that is what this last item that we mentioned. Mentioned land and water trails, I think most importantly we have a terrific system between the Warren County Bike Trail and the Feeder Canal Trail. What we need to do is provide safe connections to those trials, enhance the access to those and improve signage and overall make our roadways safe for alternative means of transportation, whether it is for walking, cycling or other means. Generally our roadways are not constructed for that purpose, they ar constructed to carry vehicles. We need to consider alternative transportation and that is what this recommendation was there. We need to look for off road opportunities. Something that has come up during the most recent public presentations is that no where mentioned in our plan is RV's or off-road vehicles, that really wasn't one of initial concept that we wanted to look at, but I think we recognize there is a need to address the use of that and provide facilities for that. We have not been able to address that within our plan but we think we need to carry that message back to the Town Board and other responsible parties that we need to provide facilities for those recreational vehicles. If we don't, we are not doing our, do diligence. We mentioned expanding trail opportunities. We think the Town owns a significant portion of land, I see Harry Hansen, I see Doug Irish from the Rec Department, Parks and Recreation Commission and Parks and Rec Department and the Recreation Commission. They recently acqired land along Halfway Brook that we are working with the Parks and Rec to enhance the trail system along that area, we think that is a real prime resource that is going to rival any that we have in town. We mentioned that we are looking to include trails on any of our preserves that we mentioned previously. Water trials, there was a lot of discussion about water trails in the plan and through some initial public outreach, we are looking to provide some additional recreational access and trail opportunities along Halfway Brook, Hudson River and Dunhams Bay marsh. We have heard loud and clear along Halfway Brook that there are landowners who would be negatively effected by a formal canoe trail along private property. So, what we need to do is carry that message back to the Committee, back to the Town Board and re-evaluate that whether that is the best alternative maybe we want to look at limiting canoe access to lands that are publicly controlled and not negatively influenced or affect private property owers. Hudson River, Marilyn partnered with a couple of communities, Moreau and Corinth among those to develop a recreational trail program a water-front revitalization program along the Hudson River. I know Harry Hansen and the Parks and Recreation Department is working actively on piecing together properties that they own and how do they provide recreational access or enhanced access to the Hudson River on lands where suitable, along those areas. Dunhams Bay marsh significant land area that is already protected by New York State that we are looking to improve canoe access and provide opportunities for access. Queensbury is rich in its historic heritage and our Historian Marilyn VanDyke, I see Marilyn here tonight, Marilyn has done some things to improve our awareness of our historic resources we need to build on those. There are some concepts in the Open Space Plan that these are open spaces and that it is important to link to our history and provide incentives for preserving those facilities those locatins those areas that mean something in our history and one of the things we can do is improve our signage program and there are some other discussions in the plan on those items. Scenic Roads, this is something that are articulated in two previous comprehensive plans and it is echoed again here in our Open Space Plan. There is all kinds of surveys out there at a State and National level that talk about the value of, individuals value their rural lifestyle. One of the things that people envision, when they envision a rural quality of life its dirt roads, it is tree lined roads it is areas that are very scenic being able to take a drive and not look, have to look at residential or commercial development all the time. It is important that we recognize that we do have some scenic roads and preserve the quality that make them scenic. There is a significant tourism dollar that is spent here in our region and in addition to our formal recreational facilities it is those other things that really add value to our ommunity, amongst them is something as simple as a scenic roadway. Agricultural heritage, this is something that is almost lost here in the town, the Town had a rich agricultural heritage and there are several properties that they are still being used for agricultural purposes, basically lands that are being leased to the dairy farmers in Washington County. So, we need to know, how do we preserve that, because if that farm field is gone you know we would miss it tomorrow. So, how do we continue to allow and promote those lands being used as agricultural lands? Some of the things that are available already are State and Federal Grants and particular tax incentives from a property tax standpoint. We need to publicize those existing programs and look at enhancing those other opportunities. Here is probably the largest area of our land is held in active forestry if not active forestry practices. It is something that when we look out this window today you look at West Mountain or you look at French Mountan or you look to our east along Pilot Knob and those areas if they are not protected by the State they are actively used by landowners for forestry practices so we need to know how do we continue to promote the usage of those lands for forestry purposes because those are something that we do value from an economic standpoint and we value from a ecstatic standpoint. So, we need to provide the incentives, we need to provide the programs that are going to keep those folks actively using those forestry resources and that is a whole other level of issues that we need to explore. There is a whole global issue when it comes to forestry and the paper industry. We are not capable we do not have the capacity at the local level to deal with that but we need to make sure that our elected officials at the State and Federal level are actively involved in preserving that economy that we talk about. I am ready to jump onto the finish. The Gateway to the Adirondacks, this was a novel concept that was brought out during te plan and we have mentioned our heritage here in the town, we are here because the town and the city are located in this particular region because of the Hudson River because of the paper industry because of the cement industry because of the insurance industry because of our natural resources, because of water power. We have probably one of the, the largest collection of hydroelectric facilities in a very close proximity. How do we take that and play that as an environmental education center as a tourism draw just as an educational piece an active living class room. This concept was thrown out there, there is already a debate being conducted in the newspaper about what community is going to host this facility and we think that is great. We think we should enjoy additional examination and we are ready, willing and able to participate in that process. We do not know that we will take that lead as a town but we need to make sure there is an entity identified and that we examine that particular project. Tha concludes kind of the recommendations that we talked about that are in here and you see that what we want to do is we want to open it up shortly to public comment but we expect I think the Supervisor and the slide as shown here we invite written comment up through and including June 6th. So, if you do not have the opportunity to speak tonight, please jot your comments down, please e-mail them to us you can e-mail them directly to the Supervisor, you can e-mail them to our office at planning@queensbury.net if you go to our web site there is a number of e-mail addresses on there and we will make sure if they get to the town they get to the proper party and that we include them in our responsiveness document. What we expect to do, we are not going to be responding to you tonight, we want to hear what you have to say we are going to assemble all of those comments. We are going to draft responses for review by the Boards here tonight and if there is some terrific concepts that are thrown out, we want to incororate them, if there are some suggestions about how we might revise it, we want to examine those and look at revising the document so that it is responsive to the public. Then at the conclusion of that we want to present a plan that we think is the consensus of all the participants and present that to the Town Board. The Town Board is going to adopt that as an amendment to our comprehensive plan. What that means it basically, it is goals that the town wants to work on over the next ten and twenty years. As I mentioned at the beginning, any particular project that we have talked about it is going to require additional input we are going to look to seek public comment, we are going to look to make sure that everybody and every issue is addressed. I think we want a commitment to action here, these are all ideas and concepts that need to be taken to the next level and as I mentioned we need funding and commitment to these things. We have heard more often then not we just recently participated at the ARCC Qulity of Life Expo people come up to us and say what is Queensbury doing about growth how are you preserving the way we look. What we need to do we need to invest in our future and that means investing in some of green infrastructure projects that we have talked about. With that we will turn it over to the Supervisor and we will give the public the mic. Marilyn is there anything else that you, I apologize? Senior Planner Marilyn Ryba-No I think you have cover.. Supervisor Brower-Thank you Chris, Thank you Marilyn. At this time we are about to open the public hearing which is really what this meeting is all about, we are here to listen to members of the public. We invite you comments, pro, con, concerns, please feel free to express them all. I ask that when you come forward simply state you name and address for the record and please let these boards know your opinions on various aspects of the plan that you support, you don't support, concerns you have. We are here to listen to you tonight, we are really not here to debate, we are not here to argue we are here to listen to you as members and citizens of the Town of Queensbury. So, at this time I would like to invite anyone who would like to start it out to come forward. Paul? Mr. Paul Abess-My name is Paul Abess of Queensbury I attended the last hearing we had on the Open Space Plan and so I am just going to mention some of these things briefly because I said them before I am not sure is this the same function of this meeting as the previous one? Ok. Before I do that I just had an idea when I was sitting down listening and what I was wondering was you know that Warren County leases a trail system up in the watershed area that goes between Luzerne and Lake George and Queensbury obviously. That snowmobiles and the trails are there all year round and it seems like the trails are there it would be worthwhile to look into purchasing a recreational easement on those trails that are already there so they can be used for walkers, trail runners, mountain bike bicyclists of various uses. We have got the system there already and it would really put the Queensbury area on the map especially for tourist looking for another adventure type of recreation. It would be for non-motorized us only so I do not think there would be as much of an issue as actually with snowmobiles. The things that I brought up last time that I am bring up again, first is I do not know, it bothers me that I do not see Butler Pond on the map. I know you had mentioned that it was not a really detailed map but there is like Butler storage and other smaller bodies of water it is just is a frame of reference. I would like to see Butler Pond on the map. Before I forget I just want to thank everybody and all the work that you have all done on this because I think it is a great idea and please keep up the good work. I would also like to see IP, International Paper mentioned when we discuss the Glen Falls Water Shed property because they have a prominent roll to play also. Again I want to stress use of existing trails that are already through the water- shed if we can arrange some kind of agreement with Glens Falls. I also want to note that presently International Paper is allowing trails that have been used by the publc for at least a hundred years, they are being posted now by some of the hunting clubs and I know a couple of hunting clubs are even patrolling the trails which are the snowmobile trails in the winter but the other trails during the rest of the year. They are part of, I know of at least club that's armed patrolling them with rifles and ATV's. I do not know if it would be appropriate but it seems like it would be for somebody from the Town to approach IP and ask if they understand that, that is going on, because it is. I have had members, I have seen one and also I know of the Adirondack Runners Club I know that they were frightened off by a rifle being fired off in the air to scare thern. Unknown-Weren't they trespassing? Mr. Abess- They would be yes, they would have been but it had been a trail that they had used you know for years and years and that was the first time they were up there and they did not know it was posted. Supervisor Brower-This really isn't the place to debate we are asking for public comment so I would appreciate it if members of the audience if you would like to talk please come forward at the appropriate time and then state your peace. Mr. Abess-I would also remind the group working together that we would like to, we should bring Lake Luzerne and Lake George into it for trail continuity because a lot of the trails go back and forth between Lake Luzerne and Queensbury and also Lake George. The last thing I wanted to mention was I did not see any discussion of overlooks on the various places that there are overlooks do exist and I think a lot of people enjoy having destinations where they can go up and get a view. You know we have got the back side of West Mountain is a really nice area, over Butler storage is a, there is a nice view and also Darling Mountain has a very nice view from it. So I would like to see some mention of that becoming an objective in establishing the open space. Thank you. Supervisor Brower-Thank you for your comments. Would anyone else care to address the Board at this time? Yes. Mr. Ralph Macchio-My name is Ralph Macchio from Long Island, New York I could see your vision of open space as being you know an admiral thing to do. The thing I have a problem with is seeing my property marked off on a map as a nature preserve without anyone so much as giving me the slightest clue of what is going on here. It is not a very comfortable feeling. A question I would like to ask is how many members of this board represent property owners in this area or in the affected areas or potentially affected areas on the board that is drawing this up? Councilman Boor-I am affected. Mr. Macchio-Are you on this board or Councilman Boor-I am on the Town Board, I did not know what Board you were referring to. Mr. Macchio-This Board here, they are primarily the Board that does the bull work I would imagine regarding the plan, is that correct? Councilman Boor-I believe the Town Board would have to adopt it and that is the Board that I have to sit on. Mr. Macchio-The Town Board would ultimately adopt it but in preparation of the Town Board adopting it this Board would actually do the research and development of the program, is that correct? Councilman Boor-I believe that everybody in this room has an equal opportunity including the audience to participate. Mr. Macchio-All right that wasn't exactly what I meant, what I am saying is that if you are going to have a board then it should include all the people that are concerned about whatever you are trying to do, and the property owners should have one or two people on that board so that they can bring back the information to the owners in the area so you can have a movement which at least is fair and equitable to all those involved. I am not too happy about the thought about people marching over the property that I own and I own the property including Bear Pond on French Mountain. The thought of that being open to everyone coming at me cold is not a very pleasant thought, it is a frustrating thing to look at and mind you I understand the need for open vista's and space and green areas, I am not objecting to that what I am saying is that it should not be done in a way where it seems to be a sort of moved on although when you document you reiterate over and over again it will be something that will be worked 0 by both the landowner and the committee or Town Board. Often in government agencies that does not always happen to the efficiency that it should and that is why someone should be on this Board helping the landowners to understand and to deal with whatever comes forward. Thank you for your time. Supervisor Brower-Thank you very much for your comments. Who else would like to comment this evening? Yes, Sir. Mr. Steve Bishop-I am Steve Bishop I live at 37 West Mountain Road I guess I have a question you say you are not going to mandate the whole object is not to mandate what do you do zoning wise, what do you do when you get to a point where you cannot, the worst possible scenario without mandates you cannot move on the plan at all, where do you go from there? We have got land that has been in my wife's family for a hundred and thirty years, the land is doing fine all by itself. Councilman Stec-I will take a crack at answering that, I mean, absent of, lets say we never adopt this or we adopt it and we do not have any willing participants then I would assume and Chris Round can correct me if I am wrong it would revert back to whatever the zoning is and changing zoning and changing the rules of zoning is something that the Planning Board and the Planning Staff and the Town Board would do. So, there is a frame work in place and that is the Zoning Code. Mr. Bishop-Well, isn't that just mandating a different form of mandating? If you take that piece of property and say you cannot use this for anything other than town recreation or open space for people it is a mandate. Councilman Boor-We would never do that. Mr. Bishop-I am just reacting to what the statement was. Councilman Stec- Y ou are correct that could happen but that would never happen. Councilman Brewer-Never say never. Mr. Bishop-You said it and it is on the record Tim and that is all I wanted to hear, thank you very much. Supervisor Brower-Well, at least with this board. Dennis? Mr. Dennis Tarrantino-Dennis Tarrantino from Butler Pond Road and I certainly would welcome some more traffic on Butler Pond Road going to Butler Pond. When I first saw this plan it sounded like another layer of government it looked like big brother was coming back to watch us, but I really think it is all about big brother telling us to stop and smell the roses in Queensbury. I think it is a good thing, I think these people have dedicated a lot of hard work and hours to it and I support what you are doing and I trust the Town Board to do the right thing. Supervisor Brower-Thank you. Yes. Dr. Robert Hughes-Robert Hughes life long member and resident of Queensbury I am a native here which I am not sure how many people are. In response to that the Town of Queensbury has repeatedly squandered many opportunities in the past so I appreciate what you say but I have not seen that in the Town of Queensbury in the past. They have particularly squandered opportunities such as the Landing which is now a large multi resident building, which was at one time offered to the Town of Queensbury it is right next to the bike path, the Town of Queensbury didn't want it because they wanted the tax revenues. I think we have a problem here. They have also had opportunities to compete with the purchase of the land around Round Pond back in the 1980's and they squandered that opportunity, so I think the Town of Queensbury has a lot of history to answer for too. Thank you. Supervisor Brower-Thank you. Would anyone else care to comment this evening? Dr. Mark Hoffman-Mark Hoffman, Fox Hollow Lane, Queensbury Just first of all I do want to emphasis that on behalf of Citizens for Queensbury we did submit a detailed letter expressing our views on this matter and I hope that you all have had a chance to read it. I have also spoke at previous hearings so I am not going to be a broken record and say the same things over and over. Just a few comments, to whatever extent it is necessary to reassure people who feel that their land is threatened I think it is pretty clear it is not and this is a voluntary program and that if anything it is an advantage to landowners because it presents a potential additional buyer. A potential additional person that they could sell their land to or sell conservation or sell development rights to so I really see very little down size for any landowners in this proposal. As far as specific comments about the plan I do have concerns that this is I would characterize it as somewhat of a minimalist program. There are all kinds of caveats saying that this is not meant, that the map up there is not meant to be inclusive, however, I really would much prefer to see a more expansive and perhaps a more courageous program recognizing that it is very likely that goals that are set will be trimmed down by the realities of lack of willing sellers, lack of finances and so forth. But if we set our goals high its easier for them to be trimmed back than to set very minimalist goals and then somehow expect them magically to be expanded over time. Along those lines I do, also, would strongly encourage that the Town Board be actively involved. There is a proposal that the committee the Open Space Committee become a permanent committee of the Town. I think it is great and it is great way to get citizens involved in the community especially people that know alot about the issues. I think the staff has done a great job with it, but I am really concerned that without leadership from the Town Board people who actually have been an electoral mandate andwho are willing to stick their necks out, concern that this may not really get very far. A few other specifics, again in terms of minimalist approach I am concerned that the areas identified on the map as nature preserves are as potential nature preserves are too small, frequently they involve wetlands which is nice but I think if you are looking at creating more recreational opportunities that you need to expand that to include the woodlands that surround these wetlands especially many of these woodlands already have trails already going through them and for people that might be interested in hiking or cross country skiing or other recreational opportunities those or the types of lands that are going to be of most value, it is difficult to hike through a swamp, although I suppose it is possible with galoshes. Also, I would strongly encourage the development of trails through the town both for the recreational purposes as well as to provide alternate means of transportation for pedestrian and bicyclists andI would encourage that these trails, that there be an effort to create open space around these trails, so that to the extent that there can be a buffer between trails and people residences that, that would be beneficial both to the people that use the trails as well as to surrounding property owners. Because, people do, especially in a town like Queensbury people do want to have some separation from the public, they want to maintain their privacy. So, to the extent that you can create more space between the recreators and the surrounding community that is a plus. Then I also, I really did not see in the plan much mention specifically of neighborhood parks, there really, there is this emphasis on two or three large nature preserves but I do feel that there should be smaller parks anywhere from ten to a hundred acres in size which would be within walking distance of most residents of the community. I think it is important to keep in mind that not every area worth preserving is necessarily an ecological wondr, what is important is that even just something like an open field in an area that's otherwise heavily populated where kids can go and play or they can bike and bring their baseball and set up their own bases and play pickup games. That has value to, especially if it is close to where people live. I have said before you can, you know there is a tremendous amount of recreational resources if you want to drive someplace we have got a multi million acre Adirondack Park not far from here, but if the thing that would be of most value to Queensbury residents I think would be to have places they can go that they can walk to. I guess that is it, thanks. Supervisor Brower-Thank you. Would anyone else care to address the board? Thank you Sir. Mr. Paul Preuss-I am Paul Preuss I live at Waverly Place I am a symbol of one of your problems and that I just moved here in August 2nd. I say problems because I was told that Meadowbrook Road was a dirt road ten years ago and the place where my house sits used to be a field and there are fifty six units going in there. Across the street there are fifty six apartments that have just been completed. There is a retirement community across our road neighbors as I say I am just a symbol of what is happening and I am very proud to be in Queensbury and to see what the Town is attempting to do in keeping its land open. I was born in Brooklyn raised in Queens and I know what happened to Long Island and I still go down there for work. It is proof of places that did not have a plan in place or act on them, and if they did have a plan they obviously did not follow through. So, I hope that what was presented and the recommendations of the committee become permanent and that the actions that are taken ensure that ths continues into the future. Part of my work is in the area of strategic planning and systems and I would also encourage the Town Board to integrate these ideas with other aspects. You have mentioned recreation which is excellent I am also thinking of things like when roads are re-built, I just recently bought a bike and you know when I drive on Haviland it is nice that there is a shoulder on both sides. You do not necessarily need a special bike trail but an extra width on the road allows that opportunity to take place for people to enjoy the countryside and so on. I just wanted to say I am new, I am part of the problem. I am glad to see that there is solution in the works and I would like to thank all those that are working on behalf of continuing the open spaces in Queensbury. Thank you. Supervisor Brower-Thank you. Would anyone else? Yes, Sir. Mr. John Caffry-My name is John Caffry I live in Glens Falls but grew up in Queensbury and my family has a home in Queensbury also. I was fortunate enough to be invited to participate in two of the focus groups that the Planning Department had and I thought it was a very good process that the Town has been running on this very open and inclusive process, with having the public hearings and everything that you are getting as broad a range of opinion as possible. I think that is a good thing. I think the plan is a good start as some people have said it is just the beginning of a longer process but it is a good start to preserving what is left of Queensbury's open space. As a, some people have said there, has been some missed opportunities, but there is also still alot of opportunities out there and hopefully this town board will be the one to seize those opportunities and not miss them as had happened in the past. One of those that is still available is protecting the Big Cedar Swamp which is about nine hudred acres. Most of it is now past into the ownership of the County at tax sale and as was mentioned it is on the New York State Open Space Plan so that means there is the potential for state money to buy it and work with the adjoining property owners to help preserve the wetlands and the surrounding woodlands there. I think one thing that has to be kept in mind is you cannot just have dots on the map if you have nine hundred acres here and two hundred acres there on an ecological basis it does not really work, the wildlife population is whatever gets isolated. You need to have corridors essentially connecting your open spaces both for human recreation purposes and also for wildlife purposes. Regard to Halfway Brook, Chris mentioned earlier the possibility that the use may have to be limited to publicly owned sections of the brook but I do not think that is legally necessary, since it is a navigable waterway the public has the legal right to navigate the entire length of it regardless of who owns the bed nd banks of the brook. As long as there is public access, which their obviously is, at any road crossing. So, it would be nice to see the town improve some access to Halfway Brook. For the bike trail, I was on the bike trail the other day and I was noticing again that development is starting to encroach along the sides of the bike trail. I think that for the existing bike trail and any future bike trails or hiking trails, water trails whatever the town creates you need to think about buffers along the side. Ideally you could buy the land make the corridor wider, buy conservation easement along the side of the trails and also I think the Planning Board needs to keep in mind the bike trail and anything else when it is reviewing projects and look at visual screening, look at buffers, bigger set backs whatever in order to preserve that experience and I think it needs to be remember, too, that while tourists that are going to Lake George use the bike trail and you want to make it a nice experience too. It isironic but there are some parts of the bike trail in the City of Glens Falls that are more screened where you see less development then in part of Queensbury or Lake George where the vegetation is not there to provide the buffer. I think that is something that needs to be made part of this plan, as you implement these projects down the road. With regard to historic preservation it would be nice if the next step would be for the Town to have a project to go through the entire town and list all the structures in the town that are eligible for a listing on the national or state register of historic places, and then you could work with property owners to see if they want to list them or not. But, until somebody does that inventory you are not going to know what your resources are. I think that would also be a valuable tool for the Planning Board to know what those resources are. With regard to the watershed living in Glens Falls it has been frustrating to me to see the City Council so focused on keeping everbody out, I think a lot of people in the City would agree too that the City and the Town should work together to open it up for recreation. Now that the City is building its filtration plant and that battle was pretty much resolved maybe the Town and the City could work cooperatively on that issue. The last question really is how do you implement all of this? I think that while things like environmental education centers and things like that are nice you really need to focus first on preserving the open space to the extent that you have money to put into this that buying land buying conservation easements from willing seller when you have the opportunities should take priority over building, buildings because you can always build a building you can always build an education center but if a piece of land comes on the market and it is available and the Town could buy it you don't buy it now and it is built on you are never going to get it back. So, I think that really should be the focus. I think Queensburyhas got a real opportunity to do that kind of thing because you have this big surplus of money and you are trying to decide what to do with it, I read it in the paper all the time. In the City we do not have that problem our Common Council argues over other things. I was just reading an article where four towns down state are looking at getting the legislature to authorize them to enact a tax on real property transfers so they can fund open space preservation. Queensbury does not have to do that you have got the money to do it you do not even have a town tax right now. So, I think you have the chance to really do something unique here if you are willing to do it. Thank you for hearing someone from Glens Falls. Supervisor Brower-Thank you. Would anyone else care to address the board, yes, good evening. Ms. Virginia Etu-I am Virginia Etu Nacy Road which is on Glen Lake and I guess basically I have a tie in comment. I know the Town has recently purchased the Hayes property and wants to use that property for access to Glen Lake for canoeing and other boating non-motorized boats recreational activities. My comment is, this is, that since this is sort of a first project in recreation in opening up a portion of one of our land waters to the residents in the Town of Queensbury I would just ask that you take a look at how this goes and be aware of any comments and concerns that evolve from opening up this portion of the land. I think it is great starting point, I have a lot of comments and concerns about that project in itself that I probably will not mention here but I would just ask that you look at that again as being an open opportunity to see how using a space like that would help in the future in making other decisions. Supervisor Brower-Thank you. Would anyone else care to comment this evening? Mrs. Karen Angelson-Karen Angelson 1 Greenwood Lane As long as it has been mentioned, I had thought of mentioning the same thing, some of the monies that are in excess that I know Dan was talking about returning to the property owners etc., etc. to me this would be the perfect opportunity for some of those monies to be spent in securing some open space for the Town and for all the residents to use. Supervisor Brower-Thank you. Would anyone else care to address the Board this evening? I am sure there are many of you that want to do that. Betty come on forward. Mrs. Betty Monahan-Betty Monahan, Sunnyside I am not going to review what I put in the letter. But, I have a comment that you said the private property owners have a misconception about what is going to happen to their land. I do not think they have a misconception what they have is a concern. The minute they see their land put on that map with a hiking trail up there they are concerned about the people that see that map and say here is a hiking trail. I as a matter of curiosity looked up the amount of land that the people on the Open Space Committee own most of them are very small landowners except one that was a developer and Mike Brandt who is an x member. I think unless you own property that is subject to this type of abuse you do not realize what happens. I will give you an example of a man near us. He has a lot of fields that are in corn in the sununer time, across the road is a development where the lots are maybe a half an acre. He finally had to post his land, cut off the lane with a chain, till came home one day and found a man going down his land with a snowmobile. He said excuse me this land is posted. Well, why do you think I bought that lot across the road, it was so I could use all this land. Any property owner out my way can tell you the stories of the garbage we pick up. We never used to post our land, it is all posted now, and all my neighbors are posted. My daughter in law still almost got shot. We have had to ask people to kindly remove themselves from our beach. The answer of one of them was, that is the trouble with you rich people you never want to share any thing. Now, I did not see any of them offer to come up and pick up the garbage, to pay the taxes to clean the beach to bring the clean gravel in and this is what these private property owners are concerned about. The minute they saw their land go on the map they do not have a misconception, they know the results, ask them about the amount of garbage they are out there picking on their land right now. All you can say yo will never know what this is unless you people on the Town Board put a little notice in the paper that everybody in town can come picnic on your front lawn for a week or two and then you will have an idea what we go through. So, you know, just think about that when you start publicizing this type of thing. This is not going to be in logical order because I have been making notes, sorry about that. Every important piece of property in this town as a preserve or for ecological reasons or for visual reasons should not necessarily be available to people physically because of the impact that people can have on land. They can destroy too much impact on certain lands can destroy that which we are trying to protect the visual yes, I agree with you but then I look at this Town Board to see what you did visually I have a problem because you do not follow what you are saying. When you allowed buildings to start going close to Bay Road, Bay and Ridge are the only two roads out of this town that really look like yo are coming out into the county and have that beautiful visual impact. Bay Road had been set up so that they had to be sixty feet back from the edge of the road. The reason was of course both for the visual and if they ever wanted to widen the road. You have done a great deal with some of those new buildings going up there to lessen that visual impact. I think you have to look at who is the best steward of some of the land. These property owners that have owned it for years and some of them have owned it for generations are the town. I look at Hiland, Hiland gave the town eighty acres probably over ten years ago with the stipulation that the Town do nothing for two years when they needed that water to start the golf course. The Town has done nothing with this land in all this time, I know it is out in the hands of the consultant right now. I look at Hudson Point Preserve, the trail over there the last time I walked it was in dangerous condition. I do not see the town upkeeping. I walked Gurney Lane th trail there put in by an Eagle Scout that has had no upkeep at all, some of it is impassable some of it is dangerous. We went out and walked it to see if it was proper for a group of seniors to walk, some of us who are older than anybody on these boards moved some of the hazardous things that were in the trail and as I said some of it was impassable. So, I think you have to ask yourself how good a steward are of the land out there that is in your possession. I think you also have to look at when a good idea comes to you and it looks like a good idea I think you need to evaluate the pros and the cons. Something that may have a very good short term effect may have a very bad long term effect, the impact on it. You also have to look at the cumulative impacts and I am not saying this happened in this document that I have looked at. I would like to point out to you that the Hiland Golf Course, that land is protected by the PUD agreement they got their density because they left that land open. You need to ook at the documents already on file in this town and see what land is protected. I was also neglecting to bring to peoples attention one of the best resources for boats around here and it isn't in the Town, but some place that is very underutilized and would be a great place for some of these power boats is the Barge the Champlain Canal even though it is in the Town I think we could push that a little bit more and take some of the pressure off the lakes that are in the town. We talk about are agricultural heritage but I have known horse owners to come in from, of these boards and be given a hard time, putting up their barns etc. and so on. No place in our zoning now do we have anything zoned for mini farms which maybe we should look at. I think that is the majority of my comments that I put down here tonight. Thank you. Supervisor Brower-Thank you very much. Yes, Mr. Stone. Mr. Lewis Stone-Hi, my name is Lewis Stone I live in North Queensbury and for purposes of full disclosure I am the Chairman of the Zoning Board of Appeals I am also the Chairman of the Board of Assessment Review. Now, as I listened to some of the comments tonight I feel very frustrated. I hear negative after negative and while Betty made some very good points and that is not the reason I got up because I too was making notes as we went along. But, she was divisive there is no sense attacking all of the work that has been done here. I wish people who get up here could first say what they would like, particularly when you consider the amount of effort that has been put in by alot of very good people. People who have the future of Queensbury in their mind. This idea do they own property, don't they own property, I have no idea what that means and I am very hurt personally that people talk that way. We must keep in mind that there is, there is perfectly valid to have concerns but say what you like. This i a plan for the future, this is a plan that hopefully will carry us long beyond most of our lifetimes, because this is a nice place to live. I certainly, my wife and I certainly came up here deliberately to live in this area for the rest of our lives. We must keep in mind that there is no such thing as a bad idea any idea can be made better and we do not have to be negative about it we can merely work to make it better and that is the purpose of idea generation. I am hearing an awful lot ofnimby I really think we should think on a larger scale. We must think of the greater good and I hope that the boards, the Town Board, the Planning Board and the Committee itself don't get bogged down in minutia. I suppose I can understand that somebody says oh, they are going to take my land when they see this map, that is not the idea. You have got to put things down you cannot have ideas out here in limbo, you have got to put them down. Hopefully then you begin the work when you decide that we would like more openspace. I also resent the fact at least one speaker talked about it, everyone of us is a resident of Queensbury, those who have been here for seventy years and those who have been here for one year. We have all made a conscious choice to live in Queensbury in fact the people who have come in from other places probably made a more conscious decision then those that were born and brought up here. I really encourage all the citizens in this room and everybody when they consider this plan to listen with an open mind. We have heard some very good suggestions tonight. John Caffry did a very good job at making some statements as did Mark Hoffman and I know Mark has been doing a great deal of work on both zoning and open space for a long time, he is an excellent citizen of Queensbury. We must listen to ideas, we must consider all sides ofthern. I think Betty made a very good point, that every idea, every decision or every potential decision has plusses and minuses. We have to consider everything, we have to ak the tough questions. We have to say, what if we do that, what will happen. Certainly as the Chairman of the Zoning Board we are always charged with the balancing test of the benefit of the applicant vs the detriment of the community. I think all of this plan must be looked at in that vein. Thank you. Supervisor Brower-Thank you. Yes. Dr. Mark Hoffman-I will go for seconds, Mark Hoffman 32 Fox Hollow Just a quick response, Betty's comments about trails that are in disrepair and so forth that obviously that is a concern we need to do a better job with that, that I would just point out that if the Town doesn't move forward with an Open Space Plan you will not have to worry about clearing trails because it will all be condo's. So, I really do not think, that, that's a key issue here. One other comment in reference to the question of how many landowners there are I would say there are probably about twenty five thousand landowners in the Town of Queensbury and all of us no matter how big or small our properties are the value of our property is going to depend on the quality of life in this town. So, as a property owner I would like to see this plan moved forward. Supervisor Brower-As a matter of fact I think there are thirteen thousand some odd taxable parcels in the Town. Who else would like to comment this evening? This is your opportunity folks don't be bashful if you would like to comment in any regard we would like to hear from you. Mr. Doug Irish- Doug Irish, Chairman of the Recreation Commission I came tonight because I know you guys put in a lot of work in this plan, but I hear a lot of people talking about the recreation aspect of it. I welcome anybody who wants to come and sit in on the Recreation Commission meetings if they want to take part we are certainly willing to sit down and talk to everybody or schedule special meetings in their neighborhoods, they would like to address recreation issues. But, I do not think the focus of the open space vision is solely for recreational use. I mean, there is a difference between an open space plan and a recreation master plan. Weare attempting to update our inventory of parks in the town, addressing each park individually with a master plan with a full build out plan. It will take us some time to accomplish that, but we are moving toward that goal this year. We have had five new members for the recreation commission in the past year and a half with another one, probably be appointedin the next couple of months. But, I think I do not think people have a grasp of what the Town of Queensbury has available for recreational opportunities. The Town of Queensbury owns almost about eleven hundred acres of park land, active and passive recreation. We have developed extensive facilities down at the Hudson River Park, Gurney Lane, Ridge Jenkinsville they will all be worked on with this master plan for additional facilities as well as the old camp Jadamada down on Corinth Road. We just had a meeting this morning with Dan Luciano from the Open Space Institute. The Town and the Open Space Institute worked on a management plan for that piece of property for the last four or five years probably six years now, so we are moving forward in that aspect. I do not think that from my particular point of view I want to see the Open Space Committee and the Recreation Commission kind of being merkied up and we each have our own individual responsibilities. To that end I am a little leery of having the Townsit down and establish a new committee and then come up with a funding stream for that committee. I think the Planning Board the Zoning Board of Appeals and the Town Board have the responsibility for administering any vision that the Town adopts as far a master plan and an open space plan, watershed management plan, storm water management all of those are the towns responsibilities. I think that you would just be advocating those responsibilities too, an un-elected body of individuals if you indeed make it a permanent board within the Town certainly an advisory board would be recommendable but to adopt another board in the Town and then fund them is only shifting the responsibility from the town, the elected town officials the appointed town officials to un- elected body which is exactly what happened with the AP A, the LGA and a lot of other bodies that people well at the point of they were thought about at first they all were an accepted entity and everybody thought they would do a good job but has sens become just one large bureaucracy on top of another one. I think that is what a lot of people see when they see the Open Space plan it looks like a great plan and yes everybody has put in a lot of time on it but then they are leery of what affect they are going to have in the long run on their property and rightly so. They bought their property knowing that they could use it in a certain fashion and then to have somebody come in and say by the way you know, in long term we would like to see this used for this use or that use or the other use. I think that responsibility lies within the Planning Board and the Town Board and it should not be advocated to an un-elected body of officials. Thank you. Supervisor Brower-Thank you, Doug. Mr. Lewis Stone-I would like to make a correction, Doug for the record. Supervisor Brower-Mr. Stone. Mr. Lewis Stone-Lew Stone again. I think Mr. Irish had some good points and all I want to do is correct one thing he said, he said the LGA sets policy, the LGA is a volunteer organization I happen to be the secretary of the LGA, we are not the Lake George Park Commission to whom I think he was referring, the LGA is a group of citizens trying to preserve the lake for all of us. Supervisor Brower-Dr. Hughes Dr. Hughes-There is one thing that seems to be a glaring absence of discussion here and that is what is the density that we are looking at in developments around here. You know I have been personally harassed and humiliated at the hands of the Town Board here members many times when I have come up for certain projects. At the same time there are these huge massive complex being done by favored builders in this community which is incredibly dense and probably not realistic. I would like to know what is the future goals of the board members here are you going to continue. If you are going to go continuing in this massive intense development concept then yes, you are going to need massive open spaces and yes, maybe you may need to commandeer certain peoples lands but being a native here and do think that is important, I think the concept of Queensbury has always been not intense residence one acre, five acre, ten acres I would like to comment a fatal flaw too, there is not one farm in Warren County let aloe Queensbury. I really think that the Town needs to start to come to terms and I think this is the perfect forum, now intense if you are going to continue to allow Michaels Group and Schmerhorn developments that are these intensive as you have done in areas that are wetlands and let them get away with these things, yet go against private landowners who have been personal stewards of lands for generations and I think you need to open your minds up to that. Thank you. Supervisor Brower-Thank you. Don? Mr. Donald Sipp-Don Sipp, Courthouse Drive To follow in Lew's footsteps I would like to thank this committee for the hours of free labor that they have put in I know having been on committees before that it gets very frustrating and very tiresome and you carry it through and I am glad that it will become a permanent part of the town itself. The main force of what will happen goes to the Town Board and I think that I commented on their purchase of the land on Aviation and last fall as a first step. Hopefully this will generate into a walk and maybe a run to keep ahead of the developers and in the future we will have some green space. Living in a subdivision which recently had a parcel of land next to it diluted of trees or at least ninety percent of the land, you see what you miss once it is gone. That was a government agency that did that it had to happen but you see what will happen from it. Just north of that is forty more acres which is of the same quality which is in the hands of a developer who maydevelop this, in this case I think that the Town should and the Planning Boards looking at things cluster these houses and maybe put on there or the business park that may result from this so that the, a good share of what is there will be left and not become macadam parking lot or roads. I think this is one of the better things that has happened as will happen in the Town of Queensbury. But, I think the Town Board is the one that has to take the leadership where the money will come from to purchase some of this land is up to you people. But, in some cases I think you can look at working with government agencies such as Warren County or the State of New York where this will become a financial burden for the Town. Surplus or no surplus. There are other agencies which are available in the case of maintaining trails and so forth one of which I retired from, the BOCES system down on Dix Avenue provides a service that can be done to the community at very low cost. We worked for years for the City of Glens Fals in their watershed property creating trails along with thinning operations. It costs the City nothing. Councilman Brewer-They are doing some work in the Town right now up by the school. Mr. Sipp-It is available, it is very low cost, and although they are learners and it takes time, it is something that does develop the Town. So, I again thank the Open Space Committee because I think they have done a wonderful job, but I hope that the Town Board and the Planning Board will pick up the baton now and do what they need to do in order to make this thing work. Supervisor Brower-Thank you Mr. Sipp. Mr. Dave Stranahan-Hi, my name is Dave Stranahan I am a land owner on French Mountain and I just want to say that I think probably in general that alot of the ideas that you have are very good ideas but at this point I want to go on record that I am definitely against it because of the way you have gone about it so far. I heard one word that came up several times tonight in your presentation when you were talking and the word was voluntary. Voluntary participation by landowners. I guess I want to test your sincerity because at this point I would like to see my property taken off the map and I know that there are other landowners here from French Mountain that probably would like to see the same thing. So, we will see at the next meeting whether or not you will cooperate with us or whether you are just going to do what you want to do. Thanks. Supervisor Brower-Thank you, Sir. Would anyone else care to comment this evening as part of this public hearing. This is our second public hearing by the way that we have held. Town Historian Marilyn VanDyke-I am Marilyn VanDyke and I am the Historian for the Town of Queensbury. I have to say that I would like to comment or say that I appreciate very much the work that has been done by the Open Space Group because I think many times studies have been done and the history, cultural element of our whole life is left out of what we are doing, so here is a time when you have really addressed many of these issues and say well you ought to do this and you ought to do that and you ought to do something else when it comes to history. I am glad to hear that because often times I think that people to not think very much about the history of the town and that is an important part of getting a handle on what the quality of life is here along with looking at the land that we have the stewardship that we want to have toward that. So, we certainly do want to do more with placing homes on the national historic register when they are available and when people want to have that happen. I do thik we need to improve our signage program and we do have a signage program already in the Town which some people did not even know that we had until they started to ask questions about it. But, we certainly have validated many and we are putting up signs on, historic markers on a regular basis as well hamlet markers. I think that one of the major preservation activities that occurred in the Town existed when there was a close work with the Brookshire Acquisition Corporation at the corner of Bay and Quaker to save the old Quaker Burial Grounds which contains the burial sites of the pioneer settlers to Queensbury. That is a very significant adventure that we entered that we entertained and we also, we did save the cemetery and also of course a piece of open space that we can be very proud of because of how special it is today. I know that Queensbury is an interesting place in many ways and people say well, where is Queensbury or when did it come after Glens Falls? And questions of that sort, so we are very appy to have the one page history that anybody can have to read so you can get a broad overview of the history of the Town. You can look at the hamlets that we have all over and some of the hamlets are on the map, not all of them but some of them and it is important that we know where they were and what kind of development there was there. If you go over to the million dollar mile today you can see the French Mountain Hamlet Historic marker which explains that, that was a very significant hamlet at an earlier period of time. Now we have also studied alot about our schools and our school system here and we have been actively involved in the collection of many, many photographs of the history, and places in the town so we are doing alot of active work with our history and I think it is important that we continue to do that. I know that Marilyn Ryba has probably got more lists from me about historic sites and historic markers and one thing than, she would, probably would like to see. At any rate, I think i is important to get those down on paper as somebody else mentioned tonight that it is important to get it out and not what it is so that we can preserve these matters along with the active involvement that we have now in looking at our land and our land heritage. So, to do both the history and the cultural aspect of the community is very important so I thank this group for working on that part of it in their study. Supervisor Brower-Yes, Mrs. Monahan Mrs. Betty Monahan-I too would like to commend the Board for the purchase of the property on the Aviation Road. I think that is a very important step that you took not only for the neighborhood and that area but also for everybody coming into Town it gives a message and it gives a statement. I think that one of your first priorities should be looking at greenways between and through subdivisions and some neighborhood parks because I think those actually are going to have the most impact on the most people. Supervisor Brower-Thank you. Anyone else care to speak at this public hearing? Yes, Sir. Mr. Scott Spellburg-My name is Scott Spellburg and I am a member of French Mountain or a landowner of French Mountain. I guess my real question to you is if this is a landowners participation or a landowners cooperation if this section on French Mountain if the landowners don't agree and don't cooperate does it still go forward? Councilman Brewer-The plan could potentially go forward but that piece of the puzzle is out of the puzzle. Councilman Stec-Private property is still private property. Absolutely. Mr. Spellburg- The majority of your potential natural preserve the land that you got circled all of a sudden, there goes my land up on site and the gentlemen that are with me all own this land, probably almost all the land that you have here, these gentlemen are sitting in, you think and if it is a participation only they can just say no and it is over with, right? Unknown-That is right and that was the feeling of the committee all the way through. Mr. Spellburg-Not that what you are doing isn't right but you've got to understand this is their property, they own it they would like to do with what they like, we all have a need for spaces to be used, there is no doubt about it and the spots that we do have are great but you know as far as the survey is concerned they say there was a survey and there very well probably was a survey but this area that you have in green is your potential preserve did not ask any of those. I never received notice and I know I own a good chunk of this. So, if you are going to put out a surveyor you are going to put up posts an area on your maps as potential natural resources or whatever you would like to do with it I think those people should be the first ones to be asked, not somebody else. Granted if I lived down in the City of Glens Falls I would love to go play on your mountain you know I would love to see you open it up make a pond slide, swings what ever it is but the people that have the most at risk are the peoplethat are sitting right here and they really do not want this. So, I guess that is my only question if we say no it is over. You can take French Mountain down off the map and that is the end of it and the trail does not go across and you know the hard part is I have never posted my property. I own over a hundred acres there the neighbors all own several hundred so I have never stopped anybody from going there. My biggest concern is when I go up there now there are people saying I do not belong there with my own four wheeler. What are you doing here with your four wheeler? This is built for hikers. No, where you are standing is my property I find it a little hard to believe that you can come here with a horse or a bike and a hike and tell me now all of a sudden I am destroying my own property. So, you got to take into consideration that these people are going to be upset. You know you just turned around without notification and told them hey we are making a preserve. That is like a bad word when you stat saying preserve because now all of a sudden their way of their property is just history. If it is that simple that we say no it is over that is fine. Because that is pretty much what we are saying that is what the people on French Mountain and I cannot speak for anyone else but me, the three gentlemen I am with are landowners and probably all the green area is here tonight on French Mountain. Thanks. Councilman Boor -Your last name I did not get it. Mr. Spellburg. Spellburg. Supervisor Brower-Would anyone else like to address the Boards this evening? This is a good opportunity for you. Goodevening. Ms. Kathy Hillman-I am Kathy Hillman from Glens Falls I addressed the last meeting that you had but you did not have quite as many people here. I am kind of concerned about a couple of issues, thank you, I did the last time thank the committee and I will do it again thank you, I know what it means to give up evenings and free time and put up with some abuse while you are at it, so it is very much appreciated and I think it is long over due and a wonderful effort that Queensbury is making as a whole. A couple of things, I waited for awhile to see what people would say because I never hear anybody address the issue of open space simply as a mechanism of controlling development, how about managing the environment and directing development. Some of these landowners seem to be concerned that people will be using their space for hiking but maybe in some cases if that is an alternate that they are interested in if they do not plan on developing this anyway then what would be the harm in entertaining some offers nd some ideas from the community looking at various types of easements and what have you. If your plan is not to develop your land anyway, why not get something out of it instead of just letting it sit there. I am very interested in farm land development, and I heard a little antidote from someone who was talking about farm land preservation and basically people try to get out of committing to, oh no we are not going to do anything with our land, oh don't worry about it, it will be just the same in ten years and you say come on into my office tomorrow and we will put it down on paper and we will sign something up then they will not come in. So, you know, that is what planning is all about is knowing that certain spaces will still be there and still be open to relieve some of the pressures some of the development brings to the region. The most apparent one is traffic. I am a life long resident of this community, of this region I should say, what used to take me five minutes to get up to well wasn't the mal at that time but somewhere in the region where it might have taken my five minutes on a good a day I am lucky if! can get there in twenty. All the side effects of this type of development that we have seen in Queensbury for the past twenty five years, maybe I am being modest can be alleviated by a good open space plan that isn't just about recreation and just about environmental preservation, but about actually steering and helping growth be more manageable. As far as, I think one of the men Mr. Hughes might have mentioned one and five acre lots etc. like that, that is individual property owners but when you are talking about massive development, clustering is a very good idea as long as it is not one cluster development on top of another cluster development. The whole point behind clustering that some of these developers seem to be missing around here is that there is a quid pro quo you are supposed to get something for something. You are supposed to get a density bonus in exchange for some open spac and not just the open space which is not developable anyway. But, additional open space in addition to whatever you know steel slope or wetland happens to be on your property. So, that is about, oh the other thing was the education center. I think education is definitely an important component, if you want to bring the public into this process and get them understanding the importance the open space but I certainly wouldn't want to see any funds that were going to purchasing of land or keeping space, open going to the building of any kind of a new facility or the loss of any green space to a new facility. So, perhaps something like a combination of historic preservation you will find a nice old barn and set it up in there and something like that and try to be creative with your funding of that. Again, thank you committee members for the work you have done, thank you for the opportunity to speak. Supervisor Brower-Thank you. Would any other citizens care to participate in tonight's public hearing? Seeing none I guess I will ask of the Boards if any members of the boards would care to have anything to say on the record. Craig MacEwan-My only comment I think Chris had mentioned in his presentation that written comments are going to be accepted until June the 6th . Supervisor Brower-We are going to keep the written comment period open until June 6th which is thirty days. Come on in Kevin. Good evening. Mr. Kevin Monahan-I am Kevin Monahan I live in Salem, New York I am a French Mountain landowner. I sent a letter to the Town Board a few weeks ago did you all receive it? (Board acknowledge receipt of letter) Mr. Monahan-I have not gotten a response so I kind oflike to go over some of my issues here. In May of 2002 I went to the ...Surette...at Adirondack Community College went into the building I was stunned to see photographs of my property and my neighbors posted property in a presentation forrn. This land has been posted for many years and we have never really given anybody permission to be on it. I was told James Underwood did this and Mr. Underwood told me in fact he did. In reviewing the public draft and speaking to other landowners it is apparent that he, and there are others have spent a significant time amount of time on our property, documenting what we do with it and what possible use I guess the town could use it. I would like to know, was this done in the towns capacity. Did you tell him to go up there? Councilman Boor-I did not know he was there for any length of time? I saw the pictures that you referred to. Supervisor Brower-I assume that over time he was a hiker, he is a very active gentlemen and he is here this evening. But I just assumed that he has taken pictures during his hikes and travels over the years and that he put those up on a board. Mr. Monahan-Has any of the other open space committee members or town board members been on our property recently? Councilman Boor-I do not even know where it is. Supervisor Brower-Not that I am aware of. Mr. Monahan-You do not know where French Mountain is? Councilman Boor-I do not know where your property is. Mr. Monahan-I think I can speak for all the landowners and wanting to know this. Councilman Boor-I do not know where it is I have never been on French Mountain, I do not know what to tell you. Mr. Monahan-Anybody. Unknown-No one from the Planning Board has been on your property. Mr. Monahan-polled the board... John Unknown-I have been on French Mountain, I have been on the face. Mr. Monahan-What is the face? Unknown... Unknown-I was always under the impression that there was some kind of a State trail there. Mr. Monahan-No. Unknown-There is not, so the trail that is at the top of French Mountain would be have to be trespassing on somebody elses property is that correct? Mr. Monahan-It is all privately owned. Unknown-So, there really is, say right now there is no public access to the top of French Mountain, is that true? Mr. Monahan-The only trail that I know of is I guess Kings have allowed people to go up from the bike trail to the look out that looks over Lake George. I cannot speak for them. Unknown-Ok, but that is private. Mr. Monahan-The state owns no property on French Mountain. Unknown-Thank you for answering that question for me. Mr. Monahan-I then went into the open space vision to the meeting and after the meeting I told Marilyn Ryba that I was very upset that our property was on this map and she told me that she would have it taken off, and she has not. This is from the ...2002 and I see it still on there. Is this coming off? Councilman Boor-I do not know where your property is, I repeat. Mr. Monahan-Can I speak for all the French Mountain landowners? Will you take it off tonight? The landowners here all Councilman Boor-I would be more than happy too, but when you say take it off you mean just.. Mr. Monahan-We do not want it as a nature preserve. Councilman Boor-The map is of Queensbury do you want us to just leave a hole where French Mountain is, is that what you are saying? Mr. Monahan-We do not want to be considered for a nature preserve. Councilman Boor-So you want it in white you don't want it to have any color then. Mr. Monahan-Yea. We don't want it as a nature preserve or Councilman Boor-So you want no print on your property. Mr. Monahan-Right, or hike trail or Councilman Boor-I do not have a problem with that. Mr. Monahan- or a biking trail Councilman Boor-That is fine by me. Mr. Monahan-It has increased our trespass tremendously. Supervisor Brower-I think the goal of this evenings meeting was not to make any decisions per se but to take all the input including yours and other property owners that have spoken and evaluate that and make, and then make changes that we feel are appropriate. Mr. Monahan-Well I think we have been waiting since May of 2002 to get this off this map, we would like it off tonight. Supervisor Brower-I am not prepared to take that action this evening officially but certainly we are listening to your dialog and your input and it is going to be valued. Mr. Monahan-I also sent a letter to Barbara Sweet and in it I requested that open space committee members let us know what environmental organizations they belong to. As she has never returned my calls or Ms. Sweet-I do not believe that you have ever called me Kevin. Mr. Monahan-I called yesterday. Ms. Sweet-Yesterday, I was out due to a death in the family and I apologize for the death in the family. Mr. Monahan-Well they told me you were in a meeting actually. Ms. Sweet-Well, I wasn't there, that is why. Mr. Monahan-I would like to know of the members on the open space committee what their environmental affiliations are? Mr. Monahan-Because this is supposedly a wide cross section of the town and to me it certainly does not seem like it. I just see professional people basically, and school teachers and I do not see any blue collar people. Ms. Sweet-I did not appoint the members of this committee. Mr. Monahan-So, what you are saying you are not going to divulge that? Ms. Sweet-I do not feel that is it, I think that is personal information what organizations I belong to. I can tell you personally I do not belong to any environmental organizations but I am not going to ask the other members of this committee to divulge that, unless they care to. Supervisor Brower-You know Kevin, I am not asking you this evening to divulge any associations that you are a member of, we did not ask any members that appointed to the Board if they were affiliated with any particular organizations. We were not seeking any particular, we wanted basically a group of citizens that had an interest in looking at a vision for the Town of Queensbury for the future. Certainly I think our Board has been pro growth board for the most part in Queensbury and yet, I think any good government has a balance. If you have growth and you are accepting growth and you are accepting development and commercial development you have got to have some kind of balance on the other side looking at things you want to preserve for the future. Can we do it immediately, no. One thing we do not have any money. But, secondly or at least that is my position. Secondly, by having a plan by adopting a plan we put ourselves in a position where we can get grants from organizations for the preservation of lnd for the future, and work cooperatively with those property owners that would be willing, potentially sellers or willing to sell an easement over property. Now, you and other landowners on French Mountain this evening have disclosed the fact that you are not willing to sell even an easement for a walking trail, hiking trail on your property, you do not have any interest in entertaining that. You do not want to be part of this open space vision plan, that is going to be taken seriously by the open space committee plan and the Town Board which eventually has to adopt a plan that they can live with. So, we are going to take your input very seriously. Mr. Monahan-My point being that the only kind of recreation I see here is passive recreation so I am wondering if the nature conservancy is going to be funding all of these programs that is all they allow on their property is hiking. That was my point and that is why I was trying to see where they came from. Just because my family has owned our property for fifty years doesn't necessarily mean we are going to develop it. I mean that is kind of a promise that seems like you people think that just because everybody else is selling off their property that you will too. Supervisor Brower-Well, thankfully there are many citizens like yourself that value land, open land, the Hulls come to mind, Mr. Hull just died recently he owns hundreds of acres on West Mountain Road. I talked to his son Art and Art said as long as I am alive that property will never be developed. I appreciate that. But, now everyone obviously has that feeling and yet many, many landowners do. Many landowners would like to be able to preserve the property and if the tax burden is too high they would like to know if they could get a tax break to preserve the property as open space. That may be a possible outcome of, we may be able to do something in that respect, a part of this plan. Mr. Monahan-I think that the advertisement for these meetings, the only thing that I have ever seen is the legal notices and I happened to see the one for this meeting probably a week ago. There was a story in the Chronicle and the previous meeting you had in March I guess was in the paper the day of the meeting. I did not see it until I got home, I leave before the paper lady comes. Supervisor Brower-It was posted and on our web site as well but a lot of people Mr. Monahan-I do not have the internet. Supervisor Brower-don't always check that. We tried to be as pro active as we could to get people here. I mean, the purpose of the meeting is not to hear ourselves talk, is to listen to you. Mr. Monahan-I am thinking that you will get a better turn out if you advertise it a little farther ahead via a press release or an article or other than a legal notice because I do not know many people that read them to be honest with you. Councilman Brewer-One thing you have got to remember Kevin, we don't print the Post Star, if we did it would be alot different. Mr. Monahan-Well, maybe it would be worth spending some money to buy an ad. Councilman Brewer-I won't disagree. Mr. Monahan-For the March 25th meeting? Unknown-For this meeting there was an ad in the Post Star Mr. Monahan-A legal notice. Councilman Boor-No. an ad. Mr. Monahan-today? Councilman Boor-Yesterday Mr. Monahan-I did not see it. I guess that is my only concerns. Thank you. Supervisor Brower-Thank you very much. Yes... Ms. Lorraine Stein-Lorraine Stein I live on Ash Drive, Queensbury I just wanted to make a comment, is it possible since some of the landowners have problems with the way your maps are is it possible to maybe identify them as privately owned areas that you may, you know you could put them in a different shaded color that you know, and put something like future if they come up for sale you may be interested in purchasing some of those privately owned lands? Supervisor Brower-That is another idea. Ms. Stein-I just want to make a comment also that it would be nice for people to respect other people's property I mean they do own the property and if they do not want people on it, it is posted then they should not be on it. Thank you. Supervisor Brower-Certainly we are very cognoscente of property rights and the rights of property owners. Yes. Mr. Hughes. Dr. Hughes-I am a little bit bothered by the whole concept of conflict of interest that it was brushed off with such disregard. It is usual standard and customary for members of any board or of any community group to have recognized the issues of conflict of interest. I really think that deserves much more respect than it was just given tonight. Thank you. Supervisor Brower-Yes, Good evening. Ms. Joan Jenkins-Joan Jenkins, I live on Chestnut Ridge. I have one comment I think that this planning is absolutely essential. This open space if you go anywhere south of here you understand how wonderful it is to live in this area and within five minutes to get out to places where you can run and hike and bike and take your dogs and do what you can. And planning for this is, if we do not plan it, it is not going to happen. I appreciate what every one has done on the committee. I have two requests, and one I have thought about for years and years and someone else had mentioned it and I am not sure the committee will have anything to do with it but I enjoy biking and if anything can be done about widening the shoulders of the roads, West Mountain Road, I enjoy going along 9L because there is a good shoulder there but West Mountain Road really needs something done to it if possible please. The other thing I have a request about because I live on Chestnut Ridge and I own a very, very small portion ofth land by Halfway Brook. That area east of Ridge Road it would be wonderful if it was designated a nature preserve and I would be more than happy about that. The thing that I read in the paper it was going to be open for canoes from, in there right until East Sunnyside and the thing is if you have been down in that area the first thing to open it to canoes would be a major, major job because of all the trees that have fallen over and the other thing it would really open it up to really ruining a little section of Queensbury that is a wonderful wildlife area. There are multi deer down there, foxes, but there is also beaver and there are beaver dams and if you open up that part you have to destroys part of the wildlife and that would be a real shame. We have cut some trails down there and we enjoy them but there is no motorized vehicles down there and we do our best not to destroy any of the wildlife that is there. So, I hope you take that into consideration. Thank you. Supervisor Brower-Thank you very much. The Town is interested in expanding the width of roadways for bicycling and West Mountain Road in particular is a County Road and we talked to the County as well about the importance of biking and walking on the sides of roads and certainly the wider the shoulder the less dangerous it is. Some roads I would not like see my son riding on because I think they are fast and potentially unsafe. But, one of the neat features of this open space plan is the idea of connecting bike paths within and walking trails within the town as much as possible. I know in trying to create some off street trails like hopefully, eventually from Hudson Point all the way to the park on Big Boom Road, hopefully that can all eventually be accessed by a bike trail. Obviously we need cooperation with private property owners in order to achieve that, that mayor may not be possible but it is kind of the hope of the open space committee and the boards that, that may be achievable someday. In an case forgive me for the input, I would like to hear from you. Who else would like to participate in this evenings meeting? Mr. Mark Hoffman-In regard, Mark Hoffman again. Just in regards to this issue of trespassing. I think, some of the speakers have indicated that trespassing is already taking place it is not as if this map magically is creating the trespassing and I doubt, I think a relatively tiny number of people have actually seen this map. I think the issue here is whether the Town is going to on a voluntary basis create opportunities for people to legally hike in areas that are legal publicly accessible places that people can go and have been identified as places they can go legally and you can have a clear unequivocal distinction between places you can go legally and places that are off limits. I really do not think that the trespassing issue is an issue if it is illegal to trespass it will always be illegal to trespass the only question is whether we are going to give opportunities for people on a voluntary basis to have places that they can hike legally in the Town of Queensbury. Supervisor Brower-Mr. Stone first and then Mr. Hughes. Mr. Lewis Stone-Just a very quick thing, I am a firm believer in definitions anybody who knows me, vision, this is called the Town of Queensbury Open Space Vision. It is not a plan it is a vision. It is what, if everything were equal we would like the Town of Queensbury to have but obviously not all visions are realized and if it cannot be done it cannot be done but at least it says we are thinking about the future. Vision, not plan. Supervisor Brower-Thank you Mr. Stone, Mr. Hughes. Dr. Hughes-Until the New York State Assembly makes a decision on liability reform the issue of trespass is a huge issue. Thank you. Supervisor Brower-Thank you. Mr. Gay Wilson-Gary Wilson, Queensbury owner of Wilson Yamaha In the opening statements I heard recreational vehicles, we need to address them yet I do not see anything in the plan. I think we need to open it up so these people are not encroaching on other people's property, they have a designated area where it is legal. They can ride, they can enjoy their sport, and they do not bother anybody else. Supervisor Brower-Any other takers? Well, I want to thank everybody for taking the time and providing us with your thoughtful comments. At this stage we are going to leave the public comment period open for thirty days and encourage people that would like to comment on the plan to do so. The plan is also on the internet, it is on our website, queensbury.net for any who would like to print it out. You can print it out on your home printers or you can simply scroll through it and review it again at your convenience. This is an important part of the process the public comment and input that you have provided us tonight and in the previous public hearing and I am sure the Open Space Committee and the Town Board will take your comments and thoughtfully consider them. So, with that I will close the public hearing this evening leaving the written comment period open for thirty days until June 6th. I want to thank members of the Planning Board, I want to thank the Open Space Committee, and members of the Town Bard and our Clerk for being here this evening and for listening attentively and I know you will consider the input that you have received this evening carefully. Thank you very much and good evening. Respectfully, Miss Darleen M. Dougher Town Clerk-Queensbury