Loading...
1994-06-22 F I L E COpy QUEENSBURY ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS SECOND REGULAR MEETING JUNE 22ND, 1994 INDEX ~- Notice of Appeal No. 1-94 Woodmen of the World 1 . Area Variance No. 33-1994 Curtis L. Jessee 27. Area Variance No. 27-1994 Harold A. & Eleanore Smith 33. Notice of Appeal No. 2-94 Staples, The Office Superstore 35. Area Variance No. 32-1994 Upper Glens Falls Dev. Corp. 57. Use and Sign Variances REQUEST TO RE-HEAR Sonny Spahn 58. THESE ARE NOT OFFICIALLY ADOPTED MINUTES AND ARE SUBJECT TO BOARD AND STAFF REVISIONS. REVISIONS WILL APPEAR ON THE FOLLOWING MONTHS MINUTES (IF ANY) AND WILL STATE SUCH APPROVAL OF SAID MINUTES. '.~ ~ ,.# -..../ .--- QUEENSBURY ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS SECOND REGULAR MEETING JUNE 22ND, 1994 7:30 P.M. MEMBERS PRESENT THEODORE TURNER, CHAIRMAN LINDA HAUSER, SECRETARY FRED CARVIN CHRIS THOMAS ROBERT KARPELES ANTHONY MARESCO MEMBERS ABSENT DAVID MENTER PLANNER-SUSAN CIPPERLY TOWN ATTORNEY-PAUL DUSEK STENOGRAPHER-MARIA GAGLIARDI OLD BUSINESS: NOTICE OF APPEAL NO. 1-94 LC-42A WOODMEN OF THE WORLD OWNER: FLORENCE MURPHY WEST SIDE OF ROUTE 9L, RIDGE ROAD APPLICANT SEEKS AN APPEAL FROM THE DECISION BY THE ZONING ADMINISTRATOR THAT, BASED ON HIS INTERPRETATION OF SECTION 13D(3)(b)[5] AND RELATED DEFINITIONS IN SECTION 179-7, A USE VARIANCE WOULD BE REQUIRED TO UNDERTAKE A PROPOSED USE ON LAND CURRENTLY OWNED BY FLORENCE MURPHY. ACCORDINGLY, AN INTERPRETATION IS REQUESTED FROM THE ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS. TAX MAP NO. 22-1-14.1 LOT SIZE: 14.67 ACRES SECTION 13D(3)(b)[5] MICHAEL MULLER, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT MR. TURNER-And that was tabled for information, to be supplied by our Attorney. So, we have a letter from our Attorney, Mr. Dusek, and I would ask the Secretary to read the response. MISS HAUSER-Okay. It's to the attention of Theodore Turner, Chairman, "Dear Ladies & Gentlemen: I acknowledge receipt of your request for a legal opinion in connection with the application of Woodmen of the World for a zoning interpretation. I have reviewed the minutes of your meeting of April 20, 1994, the staff determination and the correspondence and memorandum submitted by Muller & Muller. As a result of that review, it is my understanding that the applicant, Florence Murphy, made application for a permit and/or necessary approval for the establishment of a fraternal club lodge upon certain property lying and existing within the LC-42A Zone of the Town of Queensbury. It is my further understanding that the Zoning Administrator indicated that a Use Variance would be needed as the particular use planned for the property was not an allowed use in the LC-42A Zone. I note that, from a review of the minutes, the Zoning Administrator felt that the proposed use was similar to that' of the Knights of Columbus with their picnic pavilion on Route 9 or the Elks Lodge on Cronin Road. He indicated that he felt that the applicant's proposal, as well as the previously mentioned uses, are more of a lodge function and not allowed in the zone, while uses, such as a Boy Scout Camp, were the type of uses that were anticipated for the zone. It is my understanding that the applicant and their attorneys have argued that Mr. Martin's interpretation is an error and that the use is allowed in the zone. The Attorney for the applicant indicates that the planned activity fits within the definition of group camp and that, if the ordinance is not clear between the definitions of fraternal organizations, or group camps, the matter should be decided in favor of the appl icant. Further, the appl icant' s - 1- At tor n e y i n d i cat est hat it's the use 0 f the p r em i s est hat 1 s controlling and not the nature or status of the owner. In the first instance, with regard to the issue of whether the Board would look at the use of the property or the owner of the property, it is my opinion that the cases are clear that the use of the property is the controlling factor to be used in interpretations and determining whether a variance is needed (FGL & L Prop. v. City of Rye, 66 NY2d 111). Secondly, with regard to the proper interpretation of the Zoning Ordinance, although it is my opinion that Attorney Muller is correct that Zoning Ordinances are to be strictly construed, I do not believe that this rule of construction means that the Board is required to merely look at words in a particular clause in the Ordinance and decide an issue on just these words. Rather, my research would indicate that the phrase is actually intended to refer to an enlargement or an extension of the statutory language beyond what is reasonably expected (97 NY JUl'. 2d, Statutes § 193) from a review of a number of factors. In determining whether the Zoning Administrator was correct in his interpretation, I feel it is entirely proper for the Board to take a look at the entire Zoning Ordinance and particularly the legislative intent (97 NY Jur. 2d, Statutes § 101 at seq.), which I believe can be obtained, for instance, from meeting minutes, state of affairs that existed at the time of adoption, other parts of the Ordinance, etc. In addition to the foregoing, from my review of court decisions which have evaluated Zoning Board decisions of issues similar to which your Board is faced, I find that the courts look for a reasonable and rational approach by the Board. The courts also gave deference to the Board's expertise in this area. In conclusion, it is my opinion that, although there is a requirement of strict construction of Zoning Ordinances (as defined above), the same is one consideration that must be considered in addition to other matters such as legislative intent, the intention of the legislation, and the meaning of overall paragraphs and the Ordinance and not just a particular word in a particular phase in the Ordinance. (Although, this is not to say that the words themselves should not also be examined.) I trust that you will find the foregoing opinion helpful as you deliberate upon this application. If you should have any further questions or wish to discuss this matter, I do plan to be at the Board meeting on June 22. Very truly yours, Paul B. Dusek Town Attorney" MR. TURNER-Okay. Does anyone have any questions, in reference to the letter, to Paul? Okay. All right. Mr. Muller. MR. MULLER-For the record, I'm Michael Muller, representing the owner of the property, Mrs. Murphy, and I don't disagree, one iota, with what has been represented by Mr. Dusek. I think we're in fundamental agreement. So I rest this matter entirely upon that written opinion, the written presentation that I gave you at the first meeting, probably two months ago, and I just wish to bring to your attention and remind you that this is in an LC-42A Zone. The LC-42A Zone specifically provides for Group Camps by Site Plan Review Use Type II, and a Group Camp is specifically defined as, "any land or faci I i ty for housing and recreational, educational, or business related uses by private groups or semi-public groups, such as boy or girl scout camps, fraternal lodges, or university or college conference centers". I don't know what special words I need to emphas i ze her e to imp r es s upon you t ha t Woodmen 0 f the World is a fraternal lodge. It truly is. All the literature that I have been provided by Woodmen of the World tells me it's a f rat ern a I I 0 d g e . 1ft h e con c ern 0 f tho sew h 0 ma y s tan din opposition to the project is, how are they going to use it, and where are they going to park, and what are the hours of operation, that is all left to site plan review, and I would hope that this Board has the will, if you will, to leave it to that Board, at the Planning Board level. I think that this applicant has squarely demonstrated that they're a fraternal lodge, and that they intend to operate a Group Camp. MR. TURNER-Have you got any questions of Mike? - 2 - J ~ MR. DUSEK-Mr. Chairman, perhaps, if I may, I'd just like to make a comment at this point, that may be of assistance to the Board. I think the Board is at a point where, 1 see two issues here. One is, I think the Board needs to get a grip on exactly what is meant by the Ordinance, in the terms of Group Camp, Lodge, and understanding whether or not there's any distinctions made in the Ordinance, relative to different types of activities, which all appear relatively close, in terms of their nature. I think there's different Sections of the Ordinance. Some talk about Lodges. Some talk about Clubs. Some talk about this Group Camp, and I think the first recommendation I would make to the Board is that you get a grip on what it is that the Ordinance is doing in those various Sections and in those definitions. Once you have that understood, then I think the second phase becomes, what is it that the applicant seeks to have on the property? What is the use that they seek to have? And I think once you understand what's allowed under the Ordinance in that particular zone, and once you identify what the particular use is, of the applicant, then I think it becomes a ma t t e r 0 f, i t e i the r fit s 0 r i t doe s n 't fit, and I t h ink t hat's what I'm, in so many words, I think that's also what I'm indicating to you, and when you evaluate the Ordinance, you're not just stuck to those exact words that are right there in the definition, or you don't just look at just those sections where it talks about, what's the allowed uses. You've got to look at the entire Ordinance, and you have a right to look back at the legislative intent and say, yes, this is what they mean when they said, Group Camp. See, that's what I'm trying to explain in my letter. You have that flexibility. You just don't look at one item. You look at the entire picture, and you make a determination as to what is a reasonable interpretation and a rational interpretation of the Ordinance, and like I say, once you've done that, and then I think you should also decide exactly what it is that the applicant is proposing, and when you do that, once again, you're not stuck just by the applicant's definition, and there was a memorandum of law type of thing that was submitted. You're not just compelled by what counsel has put into the memorandum of law as to the definition of what the use is. You're entitled to look at the full record before you, and all the information that you have as to what you feel that use will be, in trying to identify it. So, you've got a lit tIe bit 0 f w 0 r k, I g u e s s, cut 0 u t for you, in t e r ms 0 f analyzing, but like I say, I think once you analyze those two pieces, then they're either going to come together or they're not. I don't know if that helps. I hope it does. MR. MULLER-I'd just like to see how Paul reacts to this one. Where the Ordinance, when construed, if there's an ambiguity, that the ambiguity's ruled in favor of the applicant. MR. DUSEK-That, in and of itself, is not an entirely correct statement, 1 feel. MR. MULLER-I've cited my case, and the Court of Appeals cases. MR. DUSEK-I think that the issue is, the strict construction issue is more of a situation where, when you look at the Ordinance, if there is a, this is a tricky little part, in terms of strict construction. If you look at the Ordinance and you feel that, based on the total evaluation of everything, that you understand what it is, and the applicant doesn't fall within it, even if there is some ambiguities, but you can clear it up by virtue of looking at the whole Ordinance, looking at the intent, and everything, then there's no issue, in mY mind, in terms of being able to decide one way or another. If, however, when you get done with your whole analysis, you end up with a situation that you're saying, gee, we can't really tell whether this was meant to include or not, then I agree with Mike, that it would go to the applicant, in terms of, you know, if it's a toss, then you're going to have to throw it to the applicant, because that is what strict construction's all about, but if it's not a toss, even though there may be some ambiguities, then you're going to go exactly whatever way you think - 3 - ~ those terms mean, and you can decide it on that basis. You just have to be able to demonstrate in your decision, or your motion that you make, why it is you're doing it, and be comfortable that it's clear enough to you, in your minds, as to what the answer is. MR. CARVIN-Well, I guess, Paul, I've got a couple of things that are kind of rumbling around in my mind. Number One, I don't know if there's, to the best of your knowledge, if there's ever been a precedent like this, where we can look back and see if there's a definition of what Lodge, because I have, certainly, no idea. I have my own opinion on what they were trying to do, but that may not be anywhere near what their intent was, and then the other issue that I think I'm looking at is that, to the best of illY knowledge, the Woodmen of the World covers a lot of ground, and I guess the best analogy that I could give, and I don't want to make this a reflection on the organization, but lets say that we have an a r my t hat's p rima r y fun c t ion i s de a t h and des t r u c t ion. The y go through a town and just absolutely, tanks, guns, and the whole thing, and you have a soldier there who gives somebody a piece of bread. Does that make the army a charitable organization, and as best as I can determine, that this is an insurance company, its functions, the vast bulk of its monies, as far as I can tell, its thrust, its intent, its drive, whatever you, is an insurance company, but they do have that piece of bread that they do put back into the community. So, I mean, that's what I'm confronted with. I mean, it looks like one thing, but it does do something else. MR. DUSEK-Well, I think there you have to be very careful, because as was also indicated in my opinion, the identity of the party is not what counts, okay, in this. It's the use of the property. Now, to the extent that you look at the party to help you understand what their use is, I think that's proper, okay. Do you follow what I'm saying? That you don't look at the party and say, we 11, be c a use you' r e an ins u ran c e company , we don' tie t you i n there. That doesn't matter. What you have to look at is what is their use of the property going to be, and in order to understand their use, you can look at who they are, and what type of activities they're engaged in, and in point of fact, I would submit that's exactly what Mr. Muller did, when he tried to get an understanding. He went to their meetings. He went to their organizations, to try to get a grip on what he felt they were trying to do, and what their activities were. Well you have the same r i gh t , and I under stand that you have documen ta t ion tha t you've gathered, in attempting to understand what it is they are, so you can hopefully understand more about what it is they would do on that property. That, I think, is proper. MR. MULLER-Let me ask you a question about your army. I can only speak from personal experience. I'm also trying to grapple with this. I just want to make a fair representation here, on behalf of the owner. She's interested in selling the property, but it's contingent upon Woodmen of the World getting in. I am active, personally, in the Mohican Counsel of Boy Scouts, as a volunteer. The professionals of that organization, people who make that their living, have an office at 15 Pearl Street. You go in there and they sell things. They conduct a business office, if you will. I'm not sure that 1 would feel comfortable in representing to the Town that what happens at 15 Pearl Street, the Mohican Counsel of Boy Scouts owns, fits in an LC-42 Acre Zone, and yet, I bet you if I came before this very Board, I probably wouldn't even be before this Board if I just sat down with Jim Martin and said, Mohican Counsel Boy Scouts of America wants to put a Group Camp up there on t hat s am e sit e, M r s. M u r ph y 's sit e . I two u 1 d pas s w 0 u 1 d fly i n g colors, because I think we all understand, the Boy Scouts, what they, principally, are doing. Yet, there is some mixed aspects of use there, and the business office is down in the business location in the City, and the fraternal aspects of Scouting are off in other places. It happens to be in Fort Ann, but if they wanted to do it on upper Ridge Road in the LC-42 Acre Zone, I bet everybody here would feel real comfortable with it. I believe that's exactly what - 4 - ~ "- this organization is intending to do. That is that if there is some hidden agenda here about, they're going to sell insurance out of there, I didn't see that happening at the Lodge meeting. I mean, I've never been exposed to Woodmen of the World until I was first asked to come to the meeting and explain zoning, of all things, at the meeting, and all they did was talk about, that they're going to give a history award to some students who have achieved certain levels in the local schools, that they were going to award flags and stuff like that, and then they talked about the next meeting, and I thought, well, maybe this is just a set up on this particular meeting. So what do other Lodges do, and a person whipped out the agenda from the Glens Falls Lodge, an entirely different Lodge, for the year, and there wasn't any activities in there, other than fraternal activities, meetings, dinners, get togethers. MR. DUSEK-I've got to say one thing, because Mike just got into an area that I think really shows, may help the Board see the issue here. Mike refers to the Boy Scouts, and I think, for instance, the Board could take a look at the thing and say, well, would the Boy Scouts be allowed up there? Would the Knights of Columbus Hall that you have over on Route 9 be allowed up there? Is one, is this more like one or more like the other? Do you know what I'm saying? Can you draw comparisons and take a look, at the different types of operations that would be allowed on this property. If, for instance, if you feel, and I don't want to put ideas into the Board's mind, in terms of telling you how to decide your case, but if you felt, for instance, that the Scouts were a Group Camp that would be allowed there, but that this is not like the Scouts, then the question becomes, well, is there another basis for allowing them, then, if they're not like the Scouts. If there isn't then obviously you don't allow them. On the other hand, if you feel that what Mike is saying makes them sound like the Boy Scouts, well then, if you said the Boy Scouts belong there, then I guess you'd have to say that these people belong there. MR. CARVIN-Well, again, I don't know, and I think Bob brought up a question before. I'm assuming that the Boy Scouts have a Charter, in other words, a stated purpose or intent. MR. MULLER-It's Chartered by Congress. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. CARVIN-Okay. MR. MULLER-So is this. That is that it's recognized and Chartered by Congress of the United States. I'd just ask, you know, maybe what you think is that, what we have here is like, I don't want to put my foot in it, V.F.W., but the V.F.W., they kind of hang around on the weekend, and they run a bar, and all that. Woodmen of the World prohibits the sale and consumption of alcohol. It's not that type of a facility. MR. CARVIN-Do you know how big the Woodmen of the World is, as far as asset wise, as far as assets are concerned? MR. MULLER-I thought I gave you a brochure on it that told you that there are 800,000 members, and up in the millions. Didn't I give you that brochure? MR. MARESCO-I haven't seen that. MR. MULLER-I gave Mr. Turner that brochure. He's holding it. MR. TURNER-No, I'm not holding it. The problem I have with what you're trying to accomplish there is the stigma of the insurance company associated with the Woodmen of the World. That's a fine line, and the stigma certainly attaches itself to this organization, and just their financial statement that we had, that - 5 .- ~ we got, on their position, from. MR. CARVIN-I'd like to submit that as part of the record right now, because under the Freedom of Information Act, the Woodmen of the World, I think, is, what, $3.2 or $3.8 billion dollars. MR. MULLER-Yes, okay. Somebody was kind enough to give me a card, here. It says the assets are three billion three hundred and eighty million. MR. CARVIN-Do you know how much, approximately, is allocated for the fraternal side, in other words, the non insurance? MR. MULLER-No, I can't tell you from this card, but what submitted was a silver prospectus. Probably part of your answer is i n w hat eve r I s u bm i t t e d tot h e Tow n . The r e was a fin a n cia 1 prospectus provided to me. It showed where their main offices were, their assets, and what portions of contributions they made on an annual basis. MR. CARVIN-I have 126 pages. We have a 126 page annual report here on the Woodmen of the World, their financial statement, and believe that out of a $3.38 billion dollars worth of assets, I think it was $42 million total. I know it's $12 million in the State of New York, that is allocated, $12.889 million is in the State of New York, and I think the total, I believe the total out of the whole Company is around $42 million, which seems to be an inordinantly small percentage, if you compare that to the total assets. MR. MULLER-Well, of course, 100 percent of what this Chapter wishes to do at that location is not business. MR. CARVIN-Well, how do they get $3.2 billion, I guess, or $3.3 billl on? MR. MULLER-You join, you have to have their life insurance policy. You have to pay premiums. You don't think that the Boy Scouts are free, do you? MR. CARVIN-No. MR. MULLER-Okay. I just want to make sure. I wish the Boy Scouts were up there at that number. They're not, but they're a business. MS. CIPPERLY--I'd like to point out, also, that in keeping with Paul's idea of looking at the entire Zoning Ordinance, there are zones where fraternal organizations and social clubs are specifically allowed, and they're not specifically mentioned in the LC-42. So it would seem that, depending on what purpose they want top u t t his pro per t y to, i t ma y bel 0 n g 0 n R 0 ute 9 i n H i g h way Commercial, or it may belong on Ridge Road in LC-42, but there are specific provisions for social clubs and fraternal organizations, in, for instance, Highway Commercial. So even if they want to call themselves a fraternal organization, a space has been provided for, perhaps their meeting hall for a fraternal organizations, would be proper in Highway Commercial. MR. TURNER-Right. MR. KARPELES-Well, Scouts and this? aren't they? isn't there a big difference between the Boy The Boy Scouts are a non profit organization, MR. MULLER-I think they are. I'm being told that so is this fraternal organization. Mr. Karpeles, I'd like to, not that I'm an expert on the Boy Scouts, but I can tell you, they're in business to ma k e a pro fit . I wen tin tot h e t h i n gas a v 0 I un tee r, and I found out that they make money. They sell uniforms. They sell books. - 6 -- J '- MR. KARPELES-Yes, but I don't think they make, I still think they're a non profit organization. Their intention isn't to make a profit. They're not in business to make a profit. MR. MULLER-I would hope not, but they make a profit. MR. MARESCO-So they won't be selling insurance up there, right? MR. MULLER-Correct. MR. MARESCO-But if I wanted to join, where it would be, I would have to buy an insurance policy, right? MR. MULLER-True. MR. MARESCO-So, wouldn't I have to be buying something in order to get in? MR. TURNER-It's an indirect association. MR. MULLER-This same Ordinance that talks about what you can do at a Group Camp says, a college or university. You can't be a member of a college or university unless you pay tuition. I don't often join too many fraternities. Those few that I'm in, they require dues. MR. TURNER-Yes, but this Lodge, just by mere association with it, maybe being a guest, is going to promote the idea that you buy an insurance policy and you become a member of that Lodge. So that, inevitably. MR. MULLER-Well, why don't we have our representative introduce himself on the record, answer your questions. I can't respond to you. DOUG SHAW MR. SHAW-I'm Doug Shaw. We had a Lodge meeting, and we did invite Mike, and I don't believe anyone approached him to purchase insurance. We don't do that. We have guest speakers there. They approach us, if they're interested. MR. TURNER-Yes, but the association is there. Is it not? MR. SHAW-Only if you want it to be there. MR. TURNER--But it's there. I mean, some guy could stand on the corner and put it in another guy's ear, look it, you know, you can join and become a member and you have all the. MR. SHAW-Yes. can't say that someone won't whisper in your ear. MR. TURNER --Okay. MR. MARESCO-How much is an insurance policy, depending on, say I wanted a $10,000 insurance policy? MR. SHAW-I'm not here to sell insurance. MR. MARESCO- I know you' r e not, bu t s uppos i ng I wanted to buy a policy. MR . S HAW - 0 u r rat e s are lower t h a not her (l 0 s two r d) . I can' t answer your question, because I don't know your age. I don't know if you smoke. I don't know what policy you'd want. MR. KARPELES-Yes, but how would you go about buying insurance from your organization? Supposing I expressed an interest in buying it. What would be my next step? - 7- MR. SHAW-Normally procedure would be to have a field rep come to your home and show you the program, and you either accept it or you don't. You send an application in, and then the fraternity has to accept you, and then you become a member. MR. KARPELES-And where is the field rep based? MR. SHAW-I am a field rep, and I am in South Glens Falls. MR. KARPELES-So you work out of your home? MR. SHAW-I have, yes, in my home, and we have an office in Ballston, and we have an office in Guilderland. MR. KARPELES-And when you say, an office, that's different than what you're looking for up here? MR. SHAW-Yes. We have an office in Ballston. It's on the main street in Ballston, right next to three or four other insurance companies. MR. KARPELES-But would the same thing be done from this? MR. CARVIN-Okay. In other words, you have offices and you have Lodges. How many Lodges do you have in the State of New York? MR. SHAW-Yes. Forty-three. MR. CARVIN-How many offices? MR. SHAW-Counting home offices and all, there's about 80. MR. CARVIN-Okay. So that there's 43 other camps like this, in the State? MR. SHAW-Some are inactive. MR. CARVIN-Some are inactive. MR. SHAW-They do not have Lodges. wo r d) . They have meetings in (lost MR. MULLER--What saw at the meeting was, basically, a typical meeting, where somebody called it to order. They didn't discuss anything about insurance. They basically discussed this project, in terms of having a place for the Chapter to meet. They discussed awards to kids that were doing exceptionally well in school, scholarship awards, and part of the literature that they gave me, and one of the parents talked to me about it. They said it would be important to emphasize that we have a youth chapter, or youth lodge, and what he explained to me, showed me exactly what the Boy Scouts do, that is that these kids in this youth lodge work to achieve merit badges. I am not familiar with this one iota, but I can tell you that that's a part of the activities that are planned at this location. It is not a principal activity, because this is not a year round operation. That is, it's not intended to be their surruner camp, but it's intended to be the place where their youth lodge will meet and do their activities. MR. DUSEK-Mr. Chairman, as I heard what the Assistant Planner said earlier, there is, in your Ordinance, for instance, under Highway Corrunercial, something called a social club or fraternal organization, and then, under this LC zone, we have something called a Group Camp, and perhaps if the Board were to, and there may be some other terms. Perhaps if the Board would look at those terms, and decide what each type of, what each one means, in terms of its activity, and is there a distinction, because it seems to me that they must fall under one of these, or maybe they don't. That's up to you to determine, but if you see what it is that they are, in terms of your Ordinance, if you can, that may help you - 8 - .. - ........... determine whether or not they belong in that zone or not. MR. TURNER-Let me read you what I asked Mr. Bovair. I don't know if you read that part of the minutes last time. I asked Mr. Bovair, where does Woodmen of the World divide their priority, between being a member of the club and being a conm1ercial operation, an insurance company? Mr. Bovair's response, when you purchase a Certificate through Woodmen, you actually own part of Woodmen. Part of that Lodge, the building, will be yours. You have to be a member, or you have to have an insurance policy, to be a member of Woodmen. I can't differentiate. MR. DUSEK-What is it that they're doing? MR. TURNER-They have to buy a Certificate. MR. DUSEK-No, besides the insurance. What is it that they do? What kind of activities go on at this place, do you think, from everything you've heard in the record? Do they camp out overnight, like the Boy Scouts? MR. TURNER-They indicated they might. MR. MULLER-Even if they did, they represented to me they were not doing that here. MR. TURNER-I know, but they indicated that that. MR. MARESCO-It's a possibility. a possibility that they would. I think they had indicated it was MR. MULLER-It.i..§.. a possibility. I think that's okay in the zone, but I don't think that's what they've principally done. MR. DUSEK-That's not their principal occupation. MR. MULLER-Right. MR. DUSEK-Okay. Then what is it that you do in a Group Camp? What does the Ordinance say that you do in a Group Camp? You go to the definition, it says it's, "any land or facility for housing and recreation, education, business related, such as Boy or Girl Scout Camps. Well, if you say that a Boy Scout Camp is something where people stay overnight and do those types of activities, and they're saying they don't do those types of activities, what does that tell you? MR . CAR V IN-We 11, I t h ink its till fa 11 s down i n the f r at ern a 1 lodge. MR. DUSEK-All right. MR. CARVIN-And there's no definition of fraternal lodge. says, see Club. It just MR. DUSEK-All right, there isn't. You're right, under that, but if you look under the Highway Commercial, you see something called a social club, hall, or fraternal organization. So then the question becomes, what does that mean? MR. TURNER-That means, that's where the Town wanted them to go. Exactly. MR. DUSEK-Well, what do you think is done under that topic in the Ordinance? Do you know? MR. TURNER-As part of what, this fraternal organization? MR. DUSEK-This thing called social club, hall, or fraternal organization. What type of activities do you think would go on in - 9 - a classification of that nature, based on your understanding of the Town, the Ordinance. MR. TURNER-As far as a social club, a social club already has identified itself as a social club. A fraternal organization is an organization that has a criteria of their own, that responds to their own rules, their own regulations, and their own Chapters, and they don't sell insurance. That's for sure. They're not In business, in other words. MISS HAUSER-As far as whether this was going to be used as camp facilities, in the minutes, on Page 29 and 30, there is a discussion between Ms. Cipperly and Mrs. Rawlins, in which she says, no, absolutely not. They do not intend that for camping facilities. MR. MULLER--That is our representation. That's correct. We represent to be a fraternal lodge, and that's what we want to do. So, I think Paul's trying to push you into that question with, what is a fraternal lodge doing? I think you have a problem with the fact that to get into this fraternal lodge, you've got to have insurance. Aren't you having a problem with that? MR. TURNER-I have a problem, the stigma of being attached to an insurance company. You're kind of like trying to cut the line In half. MR. MULLER-To get into this fraternal lodge, you have to be a member of Woodmen of the World. MR. TURNER-That's right. That's what bothers me. MR. MULLER-You do not become a member of Woodmen of the World until you are insured. MR. TURNER-So that's it's a business. It's not a Group Camp. a business. It's MR. CARVIN-But I guess the cost of getting invol ved wi th Woodmen of the World is different than if we go into the Boy Scouts. The Boy Scouts has a set fee. Is that correct? MR. MULLER-Fifteen bucks. You're in. MR. CARVIN-I'm assuming that the Elks has a set fee to join, or the Eagles, or the Knights of Columbus. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. CARVIN-However, fee might be $100. if l join the Woodmen of the World, illY entry If Bob, here, joined them, it might be $1,000. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. CARVIN-So that there is no distinction. They're there to sell insurance, as far as I'm concerned, and the entry is based upon your health. MR. TURNER-You're ability to buy. MR. MULLER-Well, see, you're in that dangerous area where you're hung up with the character of the, I don't want to say the applicant. The applicant is Mrs. Murphy. You're hung up with the character of Woodmen of the World, and Woodmen of the World is representing to you that they are not selling insurance there. I want to offer to you, I didn't hear an answer about what do you think the fraternal organization is, or a social club. I kind of think it's a place where people go and they drink and they party and they, I guess have wedding receptions there. I don't know. I'm thinking of the Knights of Columbus on Route 9. That's illY idea - 10 - ". "_,,i "-- as to what goes on in that building. That's not what is intended to go on in that building. That is this meeting, on a monthly basis, we built a new building behind the Harrisena Church. This meeting, the very meeting of this Chapter, could be there once a month, no problem, and it's probably not zoned for it, but I would hope the Town of Queensbury is not going to mess with that one, and say that the Church can't have a, the Woodmen of the World, which sells insurance to get in, can't have the Chapter meetings there. MR. CARVIN-Do you feel that Metropol i tan could put a camp out there? MR. MULLER-Yes, if they fit within the definition of, maybe a camp, if that's what they wish to do. I think that Union College could put a conference center out there, I do, if they called it a Group Camp, and it fit within that definition. I can't give you a better fraternal lodge than one that is called a fraternal lodge, Woodmen of the World. I didn't dream that up, and all of that financial report, did they refer to it as a fraternal lodge? MR . CAR V IN -- No. MISS HAUSER-You know, you're just saying, well, they could put that up there, because they're calling themselves a Group Camp, and then you're representing yourself as not being a Group Camp, that you are a fraternal organization. Am I misunderstanding you? MR. MULLER-No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that we wish to put a Group Camp there. A Group Camp is a fraternal lodge. It says so. MR. DUSEK-But is a fraternal lodge a social club or a fraternal organization, and what is it that they're really doing? Are they a fraternal lodge, or are they a fraternal organization, or are they a social club? MR. CARV IN-My organization, personal feel ing in the traditional is that sense. they're not a fraternal MR. DUSEK-Well, be careful, now. We've got fraternal organization. We've got fraternal lodge. The statute, in Group Camp, uses the word, fraternal lodge, I believe. MISS HAUSER-Fraternal lodge. MR . DUSEK-Okay, and then under Highway Corrnner c i al they us e the term, fraternal organization. MR. MULLER-I'm not a fraternal order of the lodge. Is it something within this Group Camp? member or familiar with the benevolent Elks, but I bet you that's a fraternal you feel comfortable with having them fit MR. CARVIN-To the best of my knowledge, the Elks don't sell insurance. MR. MULLER-I don't know, okay, but. MR. CARVIN-And that's not the main thrust of the Elks. MR. MULLER-They're a lodge. MR. TURNER-Mike, I can't separate the business from the lodge, from the fraternal organization. They just don't fly, to me. That's where I'm hung up. MR. CARVIN-You see, I realize that the Woodmen of the World does have a fraternal side, that they do good deeds, I guess, that they have other aspects, other than the insurance, but to the best of !I!Y knowledge, based upon their financial report here, that that 1 1 represents, really, a small portion, a very small portion. MR. MULLER-On the financial prospectus, you're absolutely correct, and t hat sma 11 po r t ion w 0 u 1 d be r e pre s en t e d by t his C hap t e r ' s activities at that location. MR. CARVIN-Hence, my argument of the army. I mean, you know, an army is designed for one thing, and just because a section of that army happens to be benevolent, doesn't change the nature of what the army is designed for, is mY point. MR. TURNER-That's right. MR. MULLER-Well, we'll go on a long time, because we're first, and we should (lost word). MR. CARVIN-I mean, it's fine. If we could separate the benevolent part of the army, that could go out there, but suppose we get the tanks and the planes, I guess, is !!!y question. MR. MULLER-Yes. The dollar sign part is what's causing you difficulty, and I guess just so the record is clear, should it have to go, to the appeal, it's not the nature of the organization, Woodmen of the W 0 rid , that sell sin sur an c e , that i s t he c r i t e ria for deciding here. It's what do they do, do they propose to do, at this location. The only representation I can make to you is that they wish to hold their Chapter meetings, their Chapter is a fraternal lodge. This definition of Group Camp within the zone clearly says, fraternal lodges are allowed. I thought that the other concern was that while this fraternal lodge is going to be like the Knights of Columbus, I don't know if it is a fraternal lodge, but it's a social club, and I would think that you, it would be nice to be Roman Catholic to be in it, but I don't think you even have to be Roman Cathol ic anymore to be in the Knights of Columbus, but they drink and they party through the night, and I think they even have a pool table in there, and this Chapter's going to have a pool table there, and it's permitted. That is that it's recreational. This Chapter could have a barbecue there. It's recreational, but they're not going to have liquor there. They're not going to run a tavern out of there. They're not going to run an insurance office out of there. Having said on the record, I think it's squarely presented as a very narrowly defined issue. That is that if when Paul and I find each other standing before the court, and he makes the same arguments that he's made here tonight, could I substantially agree with him, and 1 make the arguments that, a judge, it's a fraternal lodge. The Congress of the United States has said so, and they're not selling insurance from this location, and they're not going to have a liquor license at this location, and why can't they then have a Group Camp? MS. CIPPERLY-Excuse me, but the definition of Group Camp also says, see Camp, and it says, under Camp, "any land, including any b u i 1 din g the reo n , use d for any ass emb I y 0 f per son s, 0 r w hat i s commonly known as Camp purposes, whether or not conducted for a profit, and whether or not occupied by adults or children, either as individuals, families, or groups", and I really think this is coming down to, are they intending to use this as camp purposes, or is this going to be a meeting hall? MISS HAUSER-And according to the minutes, they said they were not using it for camp purposes. MS. CIPPERLY-Exactly. MR. MULLER-I have to emphasize, they're going to use it for a meeting hall. All right, that is that if you need to, just put this language to the test. It is not a Boy or Girl Scout Camp. It is not a university or college conference center. It is squarely a fraternal lodge for meetings of the Chapter, not to sell Insurance. 12 - '-~ --... "-'" MR. KARPELES-What i..§. the purpose of a fraternal lodge? Why was it set up, in the first place? MR. SHAW-It was set up in 1890. So I really can't tell you why they set it up, to begin wi th. The purpose of it today is to distribute scholarship awards, to improve the life of our youth, through youth activities. We do things in the conm1unity. We give away American flags, and also American Patriot Handbooks. We need a place to organize the fraternal activities. MR. KARPELES-And the funds to do these good deeds come from the insurance company. Is this a separate organization that they've set off to the side? MR. SHAW-Yes. MR. KARPELES-But organization, is they give so much money, that the way it's worked? every year, to this MR . S HAW -- T hat get s a lit t lei n de p t h . Due s are colle c t e d t h r 0 ugh the ins ur ance. The dues go back to the 1 odg e , and we have a matching fund. The lodge is going to go out and do fund-raising to earn more money than just what they had to begin with. Basically, the more they spend, the more that the home office will give, they match the funds. If you spend $100, they return you $50 dollars. So you have $150. MR. DUSEK-Perhaps I could ask a question, if I may, of Mike. If everything's been said, I want to see if l understand something. Mike, are you saying that this organization i..§. or is not like either the Knights of Columbus or the Boy Scouts? I couldn't understand from your argument before. Are you saying that it's not like the Knights of Columbus or it i..§. like the Knights of Columbus? And the same question applies with the Boy Scouts. MR. MULLER-Yes, okay, well, let me see if I can answer it, and just to help you, in terms of my meaning, and by the way, I'm neither an expert on the Knights of Columbus, nor the Boy Scouts. The Knights of Columbus, as I see it, the activities that seem to be going on in our local Knights of Columbus, I've been there a few times, they've had, in the building, activities that were community oriented. Trouts Unlimited was there. I went to a show. I also attended a wedding there. They seemed to have a bar there. It seemed to me to be a place where you, if you're a member, can go into like a private bar or restaurant. That's not what Woodmen of the World has in mind, and so I wish, and offer that as a distinction. As for the Boy Scouts, my purpose of making that representation was I think we all believe, truly, that that is a not for profit organization, clearly motivated to create leadership among male youth in America. It has all of the virtues of mom, apple pie, and the American flag. Yet, I offered that to you in to instruct you that it, too, has a business purpose, and its business purpose locally, the one that I'm familiar with, is not, while it's in a zone that permits business uses, it has its office space. You go in there and you can, basically, buy things, and we have our meetings there, but that Mohican Counsel, that business office, if it were their choice to ask permission to use Mrs. Murphy's property for something, I believe that they would be a Croup Camp. That was my whole purpose of suggesting that the Boy Scouts have a business aspect. That, I think, would have gotten a clear approval. I don't think we'd be arguing this before the Zoning Board of Appeals. Everybody in the Planning Office would have said, well, Boy Scouts, certainly they're going to have a camp. MR. DUSEK-But what is it that the Boy Scouts do, in addition to, you know, you've indicated what their principals are, or what the mission is, but what type of activities do the Boy Scouts generally engage in? MR. MULLER-Entirely not for profit. That is that you don't have to -- 1 3 -- do. MR. DUSEK-No, I mean physical types of activity. You indicated that the Knights of Columbus has weddings. They have numbers of people showing up for meetings and stuff. MR. MULLER-The Boy Scouts, basically, they camp. They hike. canoe. They achieve rank. They're very similar to Fred's but they're a good army. They army, MISS HAUSER-But they have camping activities that you say they're not going to engage in, with this organization. MR. MULLER-That's correct. That is that I, don't get hung up on it. I wanted to have you folks narrow in on a very precise item that's set forth clearly in the Zoning Ordinance, unequivocally. It says, fraternal lodges. MISS HAUSER-But then it says, see Camp, and then it says, relatéd camping activities. MR. MULLER-Well, conference center time? see at Camp. this If Union College wished to have a I 0 cat ion, w 0 u I d you g i vet h em a h a I' d MISS HAUSER-If they didn't want to use them for camping facilities, probably we would. MR. MULLER-Yes, and they didn't want to use it for a camping facility. Well then you're hung up on the word "or", okay, that is that it doesn't say, "and" they must camp there, "and" they must have a fraternal lodge, "and" they must have a university or college center. It's written in the "or", okay. You don't have to do it all. I don't think that if a, does a private university dare to educate? Of course, and do they make money? Of course they do, they're in business, and they're often well endowed by contributions and investments, which Fred's the expert on. I'm not, but that private university or college, that makes the same investments and is dealing in the same markets as this Woodmen of the World, they're going to be allowed to have a university or college conference center there, I think, because that's what the plain language of the Ordinance reads. Now, if they want to run a business out of that location, to hold classes, that's a close question. If they want to hold conferences, think they're clear I y allowed. MR. DUSEK- I as ked Mi ke thos e ques t ions for you becaus e I th i nk tha t gives, he's given you, first of all, he's giving answers to those questions, but he's also added his own opinion, that he feels, if I understood him earlier, that it's not like the Knights of Columbus, but it's more like, well, he's actually saying it's not even like the Boy Scouts, but it's like the fraternal lodge that it says is allowed in this particular Section. Now I think what the Board has to do is, that's Mike's opinion, but you have a right to look at the facts of what it is that this organization is doing, and the activities, as you see them, from the record, and decide what are these activities most closely associated with, in ~ mind, and you have a right to take a look at the definition that is before you, and I think what my memorandum tried to tell you is I think you've got to look at, if a word is not defined, you have to look at the Ordinance. You have to look at other provisions, and try to get a feel for, what is it that they mean in that definition? Can you get a clear understanding, in your own minds, of what it means? And if you do, and then if you understand what it is that this organization is doing, then you should be able to determine whether or not you feel it falls or doesn't fall within that definition. MS. CIPPERLY-I guess another point I would add to Paul's is since this variance does go with the land, and if you say, that okay, 14 - '-' --... -" '--- - this is a fraternal lodge, and I don't know how that differs from a fraternal organization, but what if Woodmen did go in there, eventually sold it, and the Elks Club wanted to go and use that for a meeting hall? Is that what you think the intent of the LC-42 zone is? MR. MULLER-Okay. That issue, think, is clearly a red herring, that is that it's not a variance, and all you're asked to do is interpret this Zoning Ordinance, and when the Kowanis Club wants to buy this from Woodmen of the World, I don't have the answer to that. MS. CIPPERLY'-I'm saying you'll be setting a precedent, I guess. MR. MULLER-Of course. think the precedent was set when the draftsmanship in the Ordinance was set out on the printed page. If somebody hadn't put the word "fraternal lodge" in there, we wouldn't be here. I think the fair question is, also ask yourself, why did they put fraternal lodge in there? MATT COFFIN MR. COFFIN-That wasn't in LC-42, though, was it, Mike? Wasn't that in Commercial, fraternal lodge? MR. MULLER-It's in the definition, Matt. It's not in the schedule of uses. It says Group Camps are allowed. MR. TURNER-But going back to that, I think the other thing that I would raise, that the LC-42 Acre Zone says recreation center and lodge. It doesn't say fraternal lodge. What is a lodge? PETE BOVAIR MR. BOVAIR-All right. So we'll call ourselves a lodge. MR. TURNER-You're not, though. You're calling yourself a fraternal lodge. MR. DUSEK-One thing I think I should caution the Board on, I just picked up on, looking at this definition of Group Camp, they first of all give you a definition, any land or facility for housing, recreation, education or business related uses, that's the definition. Then they go on and say, such as, and they're giving you examples of what they think prove out the definition. So I think you have to take a look at those. I don't think you can just focus in on the one word of fraternal lodge and make a decision here. I think you have to look at what is the definition here that's intended, and once you decide what that, and they're giving you examples of what they're referring to. Now fraternal lodge is not defined anywhere else in the Ordinance. You have to make a determination as to what it was meant by putting the word "fraternal lodge" in there. Was it meant to include these type of activities he's saying? You can't get hung up, I think, on the words. You have to look at the overall definition and you have to look at the function, or the activity that's being engaged in, in fairness to the applicant, and when you look at the activity, then, I think you can make a determination as to whether or not this is a Group Camp or not, or is it more like the Knights of Columbus? MR. TURNER-What I'm saying to you, Paul, is what Land Conservation Zone says is recreation center and lodge is allowed by site plan review. Now, what is a lodge? MR. DUSEK-That's what you've got to tell us. MR. TURNER-That's what I'm saying. MR. DUSEK-See, that's recreation and lodge. the problem in the What does that mean? Ordinance. There's a What's allowed there? - 15 .- - There's there? social club and fraternal organization. What's There's Group Camp. What's allowed there? allowed MR. TURNER-I'll tell you what, being one of the members that drew this thing up, the lodge was not indicated to be a fraternal lodge in a 42 acre zone. I'll tell you that right now. MR. MULLER-Tell me, what was a lodge? MR. TURNER-Maybe a hunting lodge of some sort. MR. MULLER-Okay. MR. TURNER-But not a fraternal lodge, Mike. fraternal. Tha t 's why we pu t MR. MULLER-Clost word) just a little bit more. The Boy Scouts have an organization within Scouting, and it's called the Order of the Arrow. It is a fraternal lodge. They do the same things, by the way, that Woodmen of the World would do at this location. However, they do not sell insurance. MR. TURNER-Okay. That's the other part. MR. MULLER-Okay, but that's, try not to get hung up on the fact, the character of the applicant's. MR. TURNER-It's the use of the land that I'm concerned with. You're saying that they're not going to sell insurance there, and I say that they are going to sell insurance there. Let me just say to you, that when you're a member, you're going to promote that lodge. So in order to promote that lodge, you've got to sell insurance and get membership up, and you've got to pay dues once you become a member. Correct? MR. BOVAIR-But we're not going to sell it there, Ted. MR. TURNER-You are. You're going to sell it by promotion. MR. BOVAIR-I may talk to this person and ask him, you know. MR. TURNER-It's indirect sales. You can call it any way you want to. MR. BOVAIR-That's no different than the Prudential across street. How do you think ~ sell insurance? They go and call on the phone and knock on doors. They do the same thing we do. the they that MR. TURNER-The intent of the Ordinance lodge on a 42 acre zone. The intent of fraternal lodge in the zone that's Ordinance. Exactly. Nothing else. was not to put a fraternal the Ordinance was to put a indicated in the Zoning MR. MULLER-Okay. Respectfully stated in retort, the intent of the Ordinance was to put a Group Camp in a 42 acre zone. MR. TURNER-It's not a Group Camp. it a Group Camp. don't see how you could call MR. MULLER-Well, it says Group Camp, right in the list of uses. MR. DUSEK-No. I think Ted's comment was, he doesn't think what your activities are, are a Group Camp. MR. TURNER-Your activities. MR. MULLER-Okay. Well, I rest entirely, 100 percent, on the definition of a Group Camp, which is a fraternal lodge. - 16 -- --- -./ MR. TURNER-Okay. Anyone else? MR. THOMAS-I've got a few things. To quote Mr. Dusek, "the use of the property is the controlling factor to be used in interpretations and determining whether a variance is needed", okay. So far they have stated that they will not be selling insurance there. They may talk about selling insurance there, but they will not be selling insurance there, according to what we've heard tonight, and that they are going to be doing exactly what it says in a Group Camp, fraternal lodge. It's written, verbatim, fraternal lodge. If that's not what they intended to put in the Ordinance, they shouldn't have put the word "fraternal" in front of lodge. So, as far as I'm concerned, they don't need a variance, a Use Variance. MR. MULLER-We're not here for a variance. MR. THOMAS-I know you're not, for a determination. MR. MULLER--I don't want to put Mrs. Murphy in a variance situation. I really don't. MR. THOMAS-You know, they've fulfilled, and it's going to be up to the Planning Board to figure out exactly what they're going to do there, under Site Plan Review, under Group Camps. I think they've met all the criteria, under the Ordinance, to fit into the LC-l¡.2 Acre Zone, for a fraternal lodge. MR. MULLER-My concern here is that I feel like a bit of a pawn in a misrepresentation, because no matter what I say, you don't, you think that they're going to sell insurance there. I don't want to be the advocate for putting an insurance office up there on the upper Ridge Road, and I felt confident that, if they were doing their lodge activities, based on what I had seen and what I had discerned from the Glens Falls Chapter, which I don't even know anybody in that Chapter. I just pulled their agenda for a year. There was no business being conducted by the Glens Falls Chapter. None. Zero, and that's what they honestly represent to you. Now, obv i ous I y, they know t he cons equences of mak i ng a mi s- representation. That is that if they're selling insurance out of there, they're going to be shut down, that is that they're certainly in violation of the Ordinance. I think we're getting off in a real tender area if, at the lodge meeting, Ted talks to Fred and says, have you considered a disability policy. They've got a great program. I don't think the purpose of the Zoning Ordinance is to limit free speech. I think the purpose of the Zoning Ordinance is to keep business out of an LC-l¡.2 Acre zone, and I'm all for it. MR. TURNER-It might be an indirect association, but it's still associated. MR. BOVAIR-Well, if they're not selling it there. The word "free speech" is the main objective for that right there, Ted. I mean, I can talk to anybody about anything. I can sell horse shit if I want to. MR. MULLER-At least we have it on the record that Mr. Bovair can sell horse shit, because I agree with that. MR. TURNER-Okay. Any further questions of Mr. Muller? Okay. Let me continue the public hearing. PUBLIC HEARING OPEN ROSE CORNELL MRS. CORNELL-Rose Cornell. I live on Assembly Point in the Town of Queensbury. I don't understand, if I wanted to have this lodge to my home once a month for a meeting, I could do that. I wouldn't - 17 - _/ have to ask you people to do this. This is not to sell insurance. This is just to have a meeting, to help kids stay off the street, stay off of drugs, and stay out of other people's homes, from stealing and yet it seems to as though this lodge is being almost criticized for doing this. MR. TURNER-No, we're talking about the use of the land, ma'am. MRS. CORNELL-The use of the land, whether it was going to be used for camping, whether it was going to be used for a lodge meeting. It's for the good, for the good of the kids, for the good of the underprivileged, and I really find it hard to believe that I could do this in my private home, and not have to ask you people, but yet to get permission to buy this land to do this, is ridiculous. All i tis i s t 0 he 1 p the kid s . I don' tun de r s tan d t his . Ag a i n IIi v e in the Town of Queensbury in Lake George, and I pay a lot of taxes, so that things like this can be taken care of, and yet this has gone on now forever, six months, and it doesn't seem as though anybody can even decide on what the definition of a lodge is. MR. TURNER-Okay. MR. BOVAIR-My name's Pete Bovair, and for the record, I live on Lockhart Mountain, in the Town of Queensbury. I've lived 1n Queens bury a 11 my 1 i fe, and p aid taxes , but that' s be s i de the point, living here and paying taxes. Some people live in Glens Falls, and they don't pay taxes in Queensbury, but they belong to the lodge, but the thing is, we're no different than anybody, any other lodge. I belong to the American Legion, and I'm always getting literature in the mail wanting to sell me insurance of some sort, because the American Legion backs it. I mean, all organizations try to sell you something, whether it be a hat or a shirt or whatever, but that's not what we're going to do up there. We're going to have a fraternal lodge. We're going to have a fraternal. We're going to have meetings there. We're probably going to have some dinners there, and maybe the kids will camp out in the summer time a couple of times. That's part of their organization, the youth lodge, so they can enjoy themselves and get together and have things. My son's president of the youth lodge, and they earn merit badges like the Boy Scouts. They go on bicycle trips. They go on camping trips. They hike. They do all kinds of different things. I mean, like Rose said, they're, you help the kids out. You keep them off the street. I mean, do you want them throwing rocks at your cars and windows when you go by? I don't. I just as soon have my son belong, and both belong to the Mohican Counsel of Boy Scouts, too. So, I mean, we're a lot of different things, and fraternal organization seems to be one of them. I've been a member for almost 25 years, and I haven't had anybody bother me about (lost word). I've got Metropolitan Insurance. I've got John Hancock, and I don't get a th ing for my money wi th John Hancock and Metropolitan. With Woodmen lodge, you get a better insurance rate. You get a better interest rate on your money, and you get fraternal benefits, like cancer protection. If you have certain kinds of cancer, they'll send your family so much money to help them out, the main office does, to help your family out during a crises. Myself, I had kidney failure a year and a half ago. I'm on dialysis three times a week. They didn't tell me I couldn't use my insurance. As a matter of fact, I just renewed it with. MR. TURNER-Pete, let me ask you a question. When you invited Mr. Muller, is he the only one that you've invited to a meeting? MR. BOVAIR-No, we've had, well, as a matter of fact, we just had a shooting sports program at Boyhaven, a Boy Scout Camp in Ballston Spa. Doug attended it. I couldn't attend it because I had dialysis that night, but we had a gentleman from, Kenyon Simpson from Bolton Landing. He came down and gave us a talk on fire arms and when a sports program would be available for anybody that wanted to take it, so that the kids could learn how to shoot rifles· and bow and arrows and black powder and everything else, and Doug - 18 - ~ "- went and took the course so that he could teach other kids to do that, and we invite different people to talk at our meetings. MR. TURNER-Do you tell them the insurance is available if they want to become a member? MR. BOVAIR-l never have. ~ never told anybody at a meeting they could buy insurance. I'm just saying, with my kidney condition and stuff, they didn't tell me I couldn't have insurance, but I'd almost bet you a dollar right now that if I had Metropolitan, they'd have refused to renew me because of kidney failure. MR. TURNER-Probably. MR. BOVAIR-And I can thank the Lord that Woodmen didn't turn me down, because that's the only life insurance I have, and my whole family has Woodmen. As far as the money divvied out, they have di f ferent things. They have, so much money goes for crutches, wheelchairs, walkers, canes, and things to people in the community who can't afford it. If you fell and broke a hip and you needed a wheelchair, we'd probably be the first ones there to give you a wheelchair to use while you're disabled, and it wouldn't cost you a thing. You wouldn't have to be a member to get it either. Like the flags. It costs us $39,000 for flags last year we handed out. American Patriot Handbooks for new citizens and people like the Boy Scouts. Mike had a thing with the Boy Scouts, a merit badge that he used our Patriot Handbook for. We hand out $95,000 worth of them. High school American History awards, $3300. Safe drivers, the school buses, we give out awards for safe driving for school buses. I mean, you know, it's just a fraternal organization. It does things for the community. MR. TURNER-All right. Okay. MR. BOVAIR-Thank you. MR. TURNER-Does somebody on this side want to speak? MR. COFFIN-My name's Matt Coffin. I live right next door. think, there's two points that I wanted to, before I got to illY. notes. One, I know and like a lot of these people that are in this organization, but the woman from Assembly Point said that if she had it in her house, that you wouldn't care. I wouldn't care either, if somebody lived there and it was their house. It's their business, but llive there now, and they're coming to illY. house, in my opinion, when they're next door. I just wanted to make that point real clear. As far as civic minded goes, every neighbor around there, except for the Dunham's Bay Fish and Game Club, has come out against this. Civic minded, to me, if the neighbors don't like something, you don't do it. If my neighbor doesn't want me to do something, and I talk it over with him, I don't want to do it. These people are trying to force their way in. I think Fred had a good point, the army, David and Goliath situation. This property isn't a burden on Mrs. Murphy. It's been sold four times in ten years. The property will sell again. Maybe now it's just in a state where it's starting to equalize. That property, if any of you ar e fami 1 i ar with it, i sn 't sui tabl e for a camp 0 f any kind. I actually kind of have doubts of whether it's suitable for a large family. It's all rocks. There's a patch with a wet land. The soil condition is very poor, it's ledge. The only dirt that was brought in was there, that's there, was brought in. I know, I have the same problem. If I want to dig a hole, I have to bring the dirt in first. The second point, what scares me about it, along with what Fred was saying with this army. When we first started these conversations on this, they were talking 20 to 25 people. Then as it got along, we find out that there's 850,000 members, and a po s sib i 1 i t Y 0 fall 0 f them be i n gab 1 e to at t end, po s sib i lit y , probably not likely to happen, but possibility. I'd like to kind of bring up the Americade and the fall car show, as an example of what can happen in Lake George Village, with the number of people -- 19 - ---'/ that wi 11 actually show, wi t h the number of p eo pIe that wi 11 actually show up in Lake George because of our area. I think zoning decided that a fraternal order is Highway Commercial. I think that was done for a reason. I don't think they wanted fraternal orders in LC-42. MR. TURNER-No, they didn't. MR. COFFIN-And I don't think that these people want to go before you for a variance, because I don't think they want to really state what their actual purposes are on paper. They can give you the rhetoric, but they can't state, on paper, that this is what they're going to do. If they just have to go for a site plan review, you know this won't happen. I've heard certain members of your Board mention that Queensbury can't enforce things once they've let them go through, and I agree with those people. They don't seem to be able to enforce them. I think what we're asking is, if you can't help us at your level, to perhaps look into these laws so that we can be helped at this level, because I think the Zoning Board is where the rules and regulations are set forth, and this is all I have to say. MR. TURNER-Okay, Matt. Anyone else wish to be heard? MR. BOVAIR-As far as putting things in writing on what we will do there, I have no problem with that. MR. COFFIN-Why don't you go for a variance, then? MR. BOVAIR-We will, if we get through this. We've got to jump over this, first, and we seem to be having a problem with, the first meeting I came to, two months ago, you guys sat here and you said that you had to look up the determination of what a fraternal lodge, and all that baloney. We sat here for two hours, an hour and a half, here, and nobody seems to have the definition yet. It's been two months. MR. TURNER-I know where 1 stand on it. now. I've already stated that. I'll tell you that right MR. BOVAIR-And as far as 840,000 members, there's probably, belong to the American Legion. There's probably six or seven n1illion of them, and I don't think any of them, all of them would want to come to Lake George at once, or the Elks Club never had four or five hundred thousand people show up at their doorstep all at once. MR. COFFIN-There's a possibility. MR. BOVAIR-No, there's no possibility, Matt, at all. MR. TURNER-Okay. MR. BOVAIR-Thanks. MR. TURNER-Anyone from this side? KAREN SOMMER MS . SOMMER-Hi. I 'm Karen Sommer. Iii ve acros s the road f rom the bar n . I' m so r r y Jim Mar tin i s n ' t he r e , because t on i g h t I' m tot a 11 y confused. I thought, at the very, very first meeting we had before this Board, that the idea of the Group Camp was promoted, and it was in the interim period that Jim Martin made the determination that they would actually be designated a fraternal lodge. So somewhere in there, either purpose, intent, something has been changed, and Jim's not here to verify that tonight, but it seems to me that the original thought was they were going to put baseball camps, baseball fields, across the road. Now it appears that they really want this building for a meeting hall. Is that what ·1 - 20 - -.....I '-,.- understand? mean, we need to get this clarified. MR. TURNER-Let me read what he said, all right? MS. SOMMER-Okay. MR. TURNER-Page 28 on the minutes, down at the bottom of the page, Mr. Martin, "The other thing, it was presented, I think, in the short time that this was before the Planning Board that this was going to be a relatively small gathering of 25 people, but yet I've heard numbers of hundreds of memberships in the Lake George lodge and the Glens Falls lodge. What is an expected or projected membership? Is this the start of a new lodge chapter, or is this something that you do? Do you have Chapters? Do you have local lodges? What is you average membership? What do you expect it to be? So what kind of usage are you looking at at this facility?" MS. SOMMER-In illY mind, as a neighbor across the road, it is still very unclear to me, and because it's unclear, it means we haven't gotten to the bottom of it, and even when we've gotten to the bottom of it, we can't enforce any of it. So if they're going to be a camp, which, apparently, they're no longer interested in being a camp. If I had $3.2 billion dollars, I wouldn't want to park myself or my camp or any recreational facility on those 14 acres, about seven of which are usable. Seven of them might be able to be made into baseball fields. Then, therefore, there's going to be a meeting hall in these barns. The barns have substandard footings. The bar n s nee d tot air en 0 vat ion to be ma de i n tom e e tin g hall s . There is no heat. There is underground wiring. There is questionable water. What kind of money are they willing to spend for w hat? W hat? I fit's jus t a sma 11 me e tin g hall for 0 n e La k e George lodge, is it? Are they willing to spend that kind of money, and how do we make sure that that's what it is, if that's what it is? If it's for one lodge, and they're going to be there on a once a month basis, then maybe we could take another look at it. That isn't what we've heard in the past. This came up tonight. A lodge was said twice. A once a month meeting. We don't know what they're doing over there, and I don't know if they want to tell us what they're doing over there. MR. TURNER-Well, that's really not, you know, that might be part of the issue, but the issue is in respect to their appeal, and that is the total issue. MS. SOMMER-The issue is the terminology, and if we look to intent, we probably need to look at the grandfather, which is the APA. If intent was to be designated down through the Town of Queensbury, the APA's initial LC, which was not LC, would somehow lead us into that intent. Whether or not the Queensbury Ordinances are ambiguous or not, there should be some clarification that comes from how the APA Ordinances are written. Is that correct? MR. TURNER-I've got to say to Zoning Ordinance was not to Conservation zones, period. pertain to that type of lodge. you that the intent of the Queensbury put fraternal organizations in Land It says, lodges, but it doesn't MS. SOMMER-And I agree with you one hundred percent. I just feel that this group does fall between the cracks, in my own mind, and we will all become the victims if they do. I certainly do feel that they conduct business at all times. I was in the Queensbury Town Hall, and I when I was quoted, maybe I can sell you a policy, and we don't know what they'll become, and until we know what they ar e and what they'll become, I don't know how we can mak e a decision on this. It appears that they sell wherever they go, and that's my feeling, and they're going to be selling in masses across the road from where I live, and I don't think I'd like that. MR. TURNER-Okay. Thank you. Anyone else? 21 -- '- PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED MR. TURNER-Okay. Any further discussion? MR. CARVIN-I don't have any further discussion. I don't have a motion. Lets put it that way. I have an opinion, but I'm not quite sure I've got it quite formatted yet. I think that, according to Mr. Muller's, I'm going to use the term "preambl(~" here, your letter, the applicant proposes to improve the buildings by providing interior accommodations and facilities that would allow the Woodmen of the World Lodge to conduct its Lodge business activities as well as a location that would facilitate the Lodge recreational and educational programs. Typical Lodge business includes monthly meetings of its members, scheduled social and educational gatherings of membership, and as weather permits, outdoor activities, including picnicking, amateur organized sports and the like. The use would be identical to a scout camp. So, in other words, basically he says it's going to be a scout camp, then going down, I'm going through and trying to develop a train here. It says that the Ordinance does not define fraternal organization, but I believe we do have a definition, under Club, which, for the most part, I don't think is appropriate. It does not, we do not have an interpretation of fraternal lodge. We do have a definition of Croup Camp, which this would be a permitted use. So you have now, the applicant relies upon Queensbury Code Section 179- 13(3)(b)[5] Schedule of Uses, where it is provided that a Croup Camp is permitted within the LC-42A zone. Furthermore, the Code states that, under Croup Camp definition, any lands or facilities for housing, recreational, educational, business related uses by private groups or semi-public groups such as Boy or Girl Scout camps, fraternal lodges, or universities or college conference centers. What is not noted here is that it says, see Camps. So now we've gone that they are looking to put a Group Camp out there, and I think our definition of Group Camp is fairly specific, in that Camp activities have to be conducted there, and I guess my feeling is that that is not really being substantiated here except when weather permits, that you're going to have picnicking or amateur organized sports and the like, when weather permits, and our definition of Camp basically says, any land including any buildings there upon used for any assembly of persons for what is commonly known as Camp purposes, whether or not conducted for profit and whether or not occupied by adults or children, either as individuals, families or groups. So I guess, instead of trying to define Lodge, we have to really define what is Camp, and my feeling is that the arguments presented so far by the Woodmen of the World really have not given me conclusive proof that this is going to be a Camp use out there, that this is going to be more of a meeting place, which under our Ordinances, and other uses really, I don't think, are appropriate. MR. MULLER-May I address that? MR. CARVIN-Yes, please. MR. MULLER-I'm trying to represent to you that it's not a camp, and I think you and I are in agreement, okay. I gave you a similarity to a Boy Scout Camp, in that my experience with Boy Scout camps, they do all of these activities, that is that they meet inside buildings. They have activities that go in and around the building, and as weather permits, that is that it would be hard to have a snowball fight in June, okay, weather permi tting, we do outdoor activities, winter activities, in the winter. I'm not indicating to you that, if it's raining out, that there's no operation going on there, but, obviously, they're not outside playing baseball. If weather permits, they are having a picnic. If weather permits, they are having barbecues. I think that if you imposed upon this applicant that they have to prove to you, as a Board, that they're going to be a camp, then you've misconstrued the Ordinance. -- 22 - -"-' --/ MR. CARVIN-Well, I think that that's to your summary, the Woodmen of the intends to situate its fraternal squarely set within the Ordinance's your argument, here, according World is a fraternal society, lodge and those activities definition of Group Camp. MR. MULLER-That's correct, absolutely correct. MR. CARVIN--And now you're saying that they're not a Group Camp. MR. MULLER-No, I'm saying they are not a Boy Scout/Girl Scout Camp, where, principally, my experience with the Boy Scout/Girl Scout Camp is that it runs six weeks, and you stay there 24 hours a day, and basically have adult leadership, professional and volunteer scouters, and then you're gone for the rest of the year. MR. CARVIN-Limited in nature. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. CARVIN-It's not a year round thing. MR. TURNER-Absolutely. MR. MULLER-It is year round, but the camping season is. MR. CARVIN-The intensity is low. MR. MULLER-That's right. Every weekend the Boy Scout camp is filled up, but we're not doing that here. MR . CAR V I N - 0 k a y . a g r e e wit h you, i n rei at ion too u r, I t h ink that that's what the intent of this particular Ordinance is, as far as Group Camps, is that it's a low intensity situation. MR. MULLER-Well, then there's our fundamental disagreement. MR. CARVIN-What you're saying is, that this is not going to be a low intensity situation. MR. MULLER-It's not going to be a low intensity situation, in terms of six weeks operation and then the rest of the year they're not there, absolutely not. MR. CARVIN--Well, that's my argument, that that's where you run afoul of our Ordinance, is that this is going to be an intensive use, in a non intensive situation. MR. MULLER-Okay, and I want to make the record complete, that is that there is no intensity aspect in this definition, that is that it says. MR. CARVIN-But the definition of the whole thing is low intensity. MR. MULLER-I understand that. zone. That has to do with an LC-42 Acre MR. CARVIN-That's correct, in other words, that warrants restricted development to very low densities. MR. MULLER-Okay. I think it's ingenuine to suggest that, if you are, that 800,000 nationwide members are coming to this location. MR. CARVIN-Not even part of the consideration. MR. MULLER-Okay. Well, the low intensity that we see here is that we have just under 15 acres of land. They're not talking about add i n g b u i 1 din g s . I don' t h a v e any ide a how ma n y p eo p lea r e coming, but if that goes into your definition, then nowhere in the Ordinance is it built in. -- 23 MR. CARVIN-Well, no. I just really want to zero in, and I think we really have to zero in on the camping aspect, that this IS not going to be a camping situation. MR. MULLER-Okay. the Group Camp is disagree. That is, I disagree because it says a fraternal Lodge, okay. MR. CARVIN-Yes, and as further clarification of what the use IS, it says, see Camp. MR. MULLER-Okay, but I don't believe that to be a fraternal lodge everybody has to own a sleeping bag. It also says, in Group Camp, that it can be a college or university conference center. I don't believe anybody has to sleep over, or cook their meals outdoors, to have a college or university conference center, and yet that IS your definition of Group Camp. That's the one that I'm asking you to allow Woodmen of the World to fit into that Ordinance. Now, I don't remember the young lady's name, and she had all these concerns about how many people are coming in, and when are they coming, and it sounds like you did, too, but do you realize that, if there is a mis--representation here tonight, in terms of, that they're not going to conduct business, I think, all and all, that the Town can't do a good job of finding out who's saying what to who, you know, after the chickens are already in the roost, but this is a process that goes through site plan review, which is, and I t h ink you do un del's tan d, ma y bet her ear e pel'S 0 n sin the au die nee that don't, that site plan process is approval, or approval with conditions, or denial, that is that I have no idea what the final process is here, in terms of, will there be baseball diamonds. I don't know the answer to tha t. Will there be 400 cars. I certainly would hope not, but I don't know the answer to that. I find it hard to believe the Planning Board would ever approve that sort of thing. I can't even get to the Planning Board, because you folks have trouble with the fact that a fraternal lodge is a Group Camp. I wish I had dreamed up that Woodmen of the World is a fraternal lodge, but I didn't. That is that that's what they have called themselves since 1890, okay. I didn't yank it out and say, it's a camp. I didn't say that it's a lodge. I think a lodge is a private place. A fraternal lodge is that it's not private. It's semi-public. MR. CARVIN-I think we still have to come back to what Paul's point was, is that we have to look at the use, and the use is not going to be a, at least under illY definition of what Group Camp is, a Group Camp usage, and I think that that's what we're all here for is to try to determine. MR. TURNER-That's right. MR. MULLER-Okay. MR. DUSEK-The use is what you want to look at. MR. TURNER-The use. MR. MULLER-Absolutely, and my greatest fear is that you want to deny this thing because you think they want to talk about insurance, and I just don't think that the Zoning Ordinance has any legitimate purpose in regulating speech. It has a great deal of purpose in regulating commerce. You don't want commerce out in an LC-42 Acre zone, and I'm not representing to you that it is. MR. DUSEK-Well, I don't think, though, that Fred said that. MR. CARVIN-No, that's not my intent. MR. MULLER-Ted has said it. MR. DUSEK-No, but Fred didn't. .... 24 -- '--- "---' ..- MR. CARVIN-I think it's a secondary consideration. MR. MULLER-Right, well, Fred wants us to camp out there, okay. MR. CARVIN-I want you to be part of the army. MR. MULLER-I really do want to narrow this question so that it's just an easy question to answer, need it be answered on appeal, and that is that I wish to squarely represent to you that it's a fraternal lodge. I wish to squarely represent to you that it will have a supplementary, or ancillary, minor aspect of kids camping sometimes, as the kids could camp out at your house, or the kids could camp out in any zone, but that it's principal activity, the principal use in this zone, as a Group Camp, will be fraternal lodge, and nothing else, not Boy Scout or Girl Scout overnight camping, and not conference or college or university conference center, not those things, which are also allowed, not those. MR. DUSEK-Taking that one step further, Mike, just so the record is also clear, when you say, fraternal lodge, what type of activities do you envision that will be conducted by this organization? MR. MULLER-At the risk of being wrong, because I'm not a member of the lodge, and I've only been to one meeting, I envision them meeting there at least once a month, on a regular basis. I assume they have officers. When I say they conduct business, they conduct lodge, that is that what activities are we doing next month, and where are we going, and where is the picnic, and who's getting the history award, and are you distributing flags. That's my idea as to what this lodge is doing. In addition, I don't believe that they have invited thirty people there for the lodge meeting who are not members of Woodmen of the World, for the purpose of postulasizing, and trying to sell them insurance on that night. I can assure you that that's not my idea of what a fraternal lodge is. MR. DUSEK-Could the lodge also be used for social gatherings as well? MR. MULLER-Could a, I guess, that is that, are we talking about a Woodmen of the World member's daughter wishes to be married, and they're going to rent the hall? I guess that's possible, just as you can do that at the school, which is not exactly zoned, and you can do that at the church, which is not exactly zoned for that. You can rent this hall for that, because I've done it, but that's not the principal use either. The principal use is going to be that Chapter 1015 is going to meet there on a monthly basis, instead of meeting at Howard Johnson's, and they are going to conduct the same business that l saw, and I did submit to you the agenda from the Glens Falls Chapter, and it's going to be the same type of business, and it was a pretty boring package of business. They were talking about a bean supper or something. MR . CAR V I N - But i t doe s n 't pre c 1 u d e a wid erg r 0 up act i v i t you t there. Is that correct? In other words, it's just not going to be narrowed to once a month. MR. MULLER-I want to give you the principal use. The ancillary uses are that when they're there, I would assume that they can have recreation, because that's what the zone permits. MR. CARVIN-Okay, and again, just for informational purposes, if I was a member of the Woodmen of the World, and I came to town, would I have a right to go there at any time? MR. MULLER-Yes. Absolutely. MR. CARVIN-I would? year. So that it could be used every day of the - 25 - ,- ---.....-------- ~ '-- ../' MR. MULLER I think so, that IS that if within that lodge facility there is, because I think the Zoning Ordinance allows it, a pool table, and if, as a member of that Chapter, you had a key, and your friend, who was a Woodmen from another Chapter, came along, yes, I'm pretty certain that you could socialize in there. Absolutely. I think that's what a fraternal lodge does, but I just don't believe that they're going to be. MR. CARVIN-But is that what a Group Camp does? You're saying a Group Camp and a fraternal lodge are one in the same. MR. MULLER-I'm saying that I don't know what a Group Camp is, so I have to tell you that a fraternal lodge is a Group Camp. MR. CARVIN-Okay. So we are zeroing in on what we're looking to define, and I guess our definition, now, is a Group Camp. Is that correct? MR. MULLER-I thought that there were at least, I think Paul was absolutely correct, which is that those were examples. Those were illustrative. Boy, if I was sitting here making an argument that some other organization, like an athletic club belongs in a Group Camp, I'd be hard-pressed, although Paul's argument about, that's just illustrative, and that you're free to also construe that, yes, I suppose that's true, but I'm not asking you to add anything to the list. I'm telling you that Woodmen of the World's a fraternal lodge. I'm telling you that they're not principally going to involve themselves as a Boy Scout or Girl Scout Camp, although they have that program, and that program will be part of this lodge at that location, but that's not the principal use you want to hear about. You want to hear about, what are they doing on a monthly basis, and what are they doing outside of the monthly meetings, and I'm insisting that they're not selling insurance there, that they're not running a business out of there. I'm going to be fair about it and say to you that they're probably going to talk about ins u ran c e toe a c hot her, but t hat t hat's not the for ma tor the purpose of the meeting. MR. TURNER-Okay. Any questions for Mr. Muller? Okay. All right. A motion's in order then. Again, going back to what I said before, I think that when the, the people that drew up the Zoning Ordinance never had the intention of putting a fraternal organization in a Land Conservation 42 Acre Zone, calling it a Group Camp or whatever you want to call it. That was not the intent, al though the definition does state fraternal organization, but that was never, because we provided a zone for fraternal organizations. MR. CARVIN-I don't have a problem moving it. It's just that I'd like to take some time to format the motion. I don't think it's something I want to do in the next five minutes. MR. TURNER-No. We have time. right? We don't have to give them a decision right now. The public hearing's closed. We've got 45 days, MR. DUSEK-I thought it was 60 days. MR. TURNER-Or 60. That's even better. MR. MULLER-If you need 60 days, I'll stipulate it. You don't have to look it up. All I'd like you to do is comply with the Open Meetings Law and not discuss it among yourselves. MR. TURNER-No problem. MR. MULLER-Don't talk about insurance. MR. TURNER-Don't sell me any, Pete, because I'm not buying it. MR. MULLER-So, we stand adjourned on this until you give us notice? -- 26 -- - ~c....._~~~"--- -_.~ ~ '-, -.-/ MR. TURNER-We stand adjourned until we hear the notice on the decision. MR. CARVIN-Should we table this? MR. TURNER-No. We just stand adjourned, as far as, the public hearing's closed, and now the Board will make a decision. They will be notified when the decision is made, so they carr be present to hear the reading of it. NEW BUSINESS: AREA VARIANCE NO. 33-1994 TYPE II SFR-IA CURTIS L. JESSEE OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE 1 7 BERESFORD LANE APPL I CANT PROPOSES TO PLACE A TWO HUNDRED EIGHTY--EIGHT (288) SQUARE FOOT SHED ON THE SOUTHEAST CORNER OF HIS REAR YARD. SECTION 179-20C REQUIRES SIDE AND REAR SETBACKS OF TWENTY ( 20 ) FEET. APPL I CANT PROPOSES A SETBACK OF FIVE (5) FEET, SO SEEKS RELIEF OF FIFTEEN (15) FEET. TAX MAP NO. 119-6-26 LOT SIZE: 20, 699.4 SQ. FT. SECTION 179-20C CURTIS JESSEE, PRESENT STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff, Area Variance No. 33-1994, Curtis L. Jessee, Meeting Date: June 22, 1994 "Notes Prepared by: Matt Bisignano, Student Intern Reviewed by: Susan Cipperly, Assistant Planner APPLICANT: Curtis L. Jessee PROJECT LOCATION: 17 Heresford Lane PROPOSED ACTION: Applicant wants to build a storage shed on the southwest corner of his property. CONFORMANCE WITH USE/AREA REGULATIONS: Proposed action meets rear setback requirements in regulations Section 179-20 but does not meet side setback requirements. Is seeking fifteen (15) feet relief. REASON FOR VARIANCE REQUEST AND BENEFIT TO APPL I CANT : App 1 i cant bel i eves that the proposed location is beneficial because it minimizes the impact on his view angle from his house and is best because of topographical constraints of his yard. FEASIBLE ALTERNATIVES: The attached map shows possible alternative locations near the house or one which would require less relief. IS THE RELIEF SUBSTANTIAL?: The relief is seventy-five (75) percent of the setback requirement. EFFECTS ON NEIGHBORHOOD OR COMMUNITY: Will be located within a few feet from a platform being constructed by neighbors bordering to the south. IS THIS DIFFICULTY SELF-CREATED?: The applicant has set criteria in which he would not like the proposed shed located centrally in his yard. PARCEL HISTORY: Applicant purchased lot from Anchor Builders on March 29, 1991. The lot was created June 5, 1989. STAFF COMMENTS AND CONCERNS: The proposed shed has many alternative sites on this parcel in which it could be located; they could not require as large a relief as requested, or in some cases not at all. The alternative would lessen the visual impact of the shed on all parties potentially concerned." MR. TURNER-Any response to Staff comments, Mr. Jessee, in respect to the alternative issues? MR . J E SSE E -- Well, the a I t ern at i v e , the 0 the r sid e 0 f the y a r d 1 S close now. MR. TURNER-Not very much. I looked at it. Everybody's been there. We've all looked at it. A 12 by 24 storage shed, that's a good sized storage shed, and it's almost a single car garage. MR . JESSEE-We 11, the i n t en t the rei s, I have a one car gar age , and my wife's car and my car, we've (lost word), with all the stuff, we don't have any room. MR. TURNER-What have you got to store in there? MR. JESSEE-Well, I'm going to store lawn equipment, and what I want to do is take what's in the basement, and store that in there, so - 27 - ~ ~--~~ '-- ----- I could turn that into a (lost word). MR. TURNER--Is it your intention that some place along the road, you're going to put a pool in the back yard? MR. JESSEE-No, not now, but I don't want to put the shed in the center, either, and I don't want to put it on the other side, because that's the wooded, beautiful side. MR. TURNER-Yes, know, bu t . MR. JESSEE-What I want to do is put it on the other side and line it with tall evergreens. MR. TURNER-If you had less then 100 square feet, you could be five foot from the rear line, but you don't. You've got a 12 by 24. That's why you're hear, and you have other alternatives. You can meet the setback. MR. JESSEE-What size, how far would I have to go down on the size of the shed? MR. TURNER-Ten by ten. MR. JESSEE-That's awful small. MR. TURNER-No, that's not too small. that. I put a motorcycle in it. I've got one, smaller than MR. JESSEE-What else can I put close to the property line? MR. TURNER-Anything under 100 square feet. MR. JESSEE-Can I put a dog pen there? MR. TURNER-Dog pens are not, what, in conjunction with the shed? MR. JESSEE-Correct. MR. TURNER-There's nothing on dog pens. It has to do with sheds. MS. CIPPERLY-What was the question? MR. TURNER-Could he put a dog pen close to his rear property line. MS. CIPPERLY-I believe that would probably be considered more like a fence. MR. TURNER-Yes, there's no regulation on that that 1 know of, nothing at all, but if you down sized the shed, made it 100 by 100, you wouldn't even have to be here. You could put it five foot from your rear property line. MR. JESSEE-Well, if you don't allow me to do it, I have no choice, but I would like to have the biggest shed that you would let me have. MR. TURNER--Well, you have other alternatives, that's what I'm telling you. You can locate the shed within the boundary lines, as dictated by the Ordinance, with no problem. So, if you want to build a 12 by 24 shed, you've got to bring it in 20 feet. MR. JESSEE-Okay, and there's no variance? MR. TURNER-No variance required. MR. JESSEE-Okay. put. So I have to go with a 10 by la, then I could MR. TURNER-You could put it five foot from the back property line. - 28 -~ --r,61If!'I"""'" '-.' .~......^"."" ~._" c ,,-. ~ MR. JESSEE-Okay. MR. TURNER -Wha t 's your pleas ur e? Do you want to wi thdr aw the application as submitted and build a 100 square foot shed, or do you want to go with the variance? MR. JESSEE-I want to go with the variance. MR. TURNER-Okay. MR. JESSEE-I was just looking at my options. MR. TURNER-Okay. All right. Anyone else have anything to say? Okay. I'll open the public hearing. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED MS. CIPPERLY-Excuse me. Just to clarify the kennel business, in the definition of structure, it says, any object constructed, installed, or permanently placed on the land, and goes on, and then it says, excluding animal shelters less than 100 square feet. So I think if the animal kennel were less than 100 square feet, it could go as close as. MR. TURNER-One hundred square feet, yes. DON MORSE MR. MORSE-My name is Don Morse, and this is my wife Kimberly Morse, and we're the house that would be directly next to this shed. MR. TURNER-The one that's building the platform? MR. MORSE-Correct. We've invested, now, a lot of money. We had no idea that he was going to put this thing there, this shed, and we're not opposed to even having such a large structure. The only thing is that, with this platform that we have now, we sit on it, and spend a great deal of time there. We have already started to landscape it with small shrubbery, and we continue to that, and if the shed went where it was, five feet from the line, even when we watch the sunset, it would come right over the shed, and we spend a great deal of time in this area, and we had no idea that he was going to build this. MR. TURNER-Until you got notified, right? MR. MORSE-Right. Well, he actually told me after he already applied for the variance. MR. TURNER-Well, that's why the Ordinance is bui 1 t that way, because, you know, anything over 100 square feet has to comply with the setbacks in the zone, and that's why it's got to b~ in 20 feet. MR. MORSE-Right, and this area is the only area in our yard that has shade, that's the only strip, and the yard is, as you said, it's level as any piece of property on that road. MR. TURNER-Yes, absolutely. There's no slope there at all. Okay. So you're opposed to granting the relief for the setback? MR. MORSE-Yes. MR. TURNER-Yes. He can have the shed, as long as he stays 20 feet away from the line. MR. MORSE-Correct. have no problem with that. MR. TURNER-All right. - 29 - '-- MR. MORSE it. mean, I'd even help him put it up. just don't want MR. TURNER-Yes, you don't want it five feet from your line. MR. MORSE-Absolutely. MR. TURNER-Okay. Thank you. MR. CARVIN-What's the problem with putting a shed on the other side, I'm sorry? MR. JESSEE-Well, it's a very beautiful side, and what I want to do IS, the other side is a wooded side, and it has a three foot drop off and it slopes down, and it's a very beautiful side. It's a side I like. Now, even if you oppose it, I still want to line it with a tall set of evergreens. MR. TURNER-You can put the evergreens In. That's fine. MR. JESSEE-Yes, I'm going to do that. MR. KARPELES-Where are the evergreens going to go? MR. JESSEE-About two feet in from the line. was okay. So, I '01 going to create a wall. I called here, and it MR. TURNER-That's fine, but I have a problem with you moving that big shed five feet from that line. MR. CARVIN-Yes. For your own benefit, I mean, if you want a bigger shed, I think you'd be wise to explore it on the other side, put it three feet off the other property line, because that's a vacant lot on the other side, and I don't think you'd be infringing upon the trees. MR. JESSEE-It's because I own that wooded area. MS. CIPPERLY-I think part of his septic system was also a problem on the other side. MR. CARVIN--Well, I don't know. According to the thing here, it looks like he should have room to put the shed in there without interfering with the septic. MR. TURNER-Yes, you've got pit tanks, right? field. He's just got two pit tanks. He has no 1 each MR. CARVIN-That way, you know, you could build your 12 by 24. You wouldn't be interfering with your neighbor, and I don't think it would be. MR. TURNER-You could turn it this way, too. MR. CARVIN-Yes, you could put it the long way. MR. TURNER-You could put it the long way. MR. JESSEE-Well, I want to keep it on the most suitable place to put it, the logical place to put it. MR. TURNER-Where it is now? Where you propose it now? Yes. MR. CARVIN-I'm just making a suggestion, because I have a feeling that you're going to have difficulty flying with this one, where it is now. MR. JESSEE-Okay. Well, you said I could put a 10 by 10 there, and I wanted to put the dog pen on the inside. -- 30 - --' ~ MR. TURNER-It has to be five feet from the rear line, though. MR. JESSEE-Okay, and the dog pen? MS. CIPPERLY-It has to be five feet from a side, also. MR. TURNER-And the side. MR. JESSEE-Five feet from the side? MR. TURNER-Yes, and the rear. MR. JESSEE-And the rear? MR. TURNER-Yes. MS. CIPPERLY-I 'd hate to have him put something in those woods, to tell you the truth, because there's lady slippers in there, and I went back, in looking for the property line. It's kind of a nice natural area in there. MR. TURNER-But what you're saying to us is, if you're going to put a 10 by 10, you're going to put it in that corner, is that what you're saying? Would that block your neighbor's view? MR. JESSEE-No, no. I'm going to block it anyhow with the evergreens. We're not too happy about where he put his platform to begin with. So we're going to create a wall of evergreens. MR. TURNER--Well, that's between you guys. You guys will have to settle that one, but I'm not happy where this one's going. You have a big lot. You can use a shed as zoned. You can put it where it belongs, within the setback. Okay. MR. MARESCO-I tend to agree with you, Ted. There are other options that you have. MR. JESSEE-Okay. I would like to hear more about what I can do with what? Where would the 10 by 10 have to go? MR. TURNER-She'll tell you. MS. CIPPERLY-If you make a shed that's 100 square feet or less, you can put it within five feet of your side or rear. You can't put a shed in your front yard. MR. JESSEE-Okay. Right. So, I can put a 10 by 10 there, and a dog pen in that corner, as long as it's five feet from the side? MR. TURNER--Yes. MR. JESSEE Okay. That's fine with me. MR. CARVIN-As long as the dog pen isn't more than 100 square feet. MR. TURNER--Yes. MR. JESSEE-I can put two of them? MR. TURNER-Two what? MS. CIPPERLY-Two sheds. MR. TURNER-Two sheds? No. MR. JESSEE-Okay, but I could do the 10 by 10, with a dog pen? All right. MR. THOMAS-I don't know. Could he do the 10 by 10 and the dog pen, is what you're saying? -- 31 - MR. JESSEE-Yes, exactly. MR. THOMAS-Because you said something, you said the animal, if it's less than 100 feet, can go five feet, five feet, but he can't have both five feet from the property line. MR. TURNER-I wouldn't think so. MS. CIPPERLY-I'd have to agree with you. That would be more than 100 square feet. It would be one or the other. MR. TURNER-One or the other. MR. JESSEE-Okay, unless they're separated. MR. TURNER-No, one or the other. MR. JESSEE-One or the other. MR. TURNER--You asked the same question, can I put up two sheds. You put one on one corner and one on the other, that's 200 square feet. That's still 200 square feet of shed. Either or. MR. JESSEE-Okay. So if you have a dog pen, you can't have a shed? All right. Okay. MR. TURNER-You can have it, but you've got to move it in. MR. JESSEE-Okay. MR. TURNER-You can't violate the setback. Do you still want us to entertain this application, or what's your pleasure? MR. JESSEE-Well, I would like to go for, I want to put the 12 by 24 shed, but if you're not going to let me, I'm still looking at my options. MR. TURNER-Well, you can do what you want to do after this point, but do you want us to rule on this application, or are you telling us that you're going to build a 100 square foot shed? MR. JESSEE-If you say no to the 12 by 24, I'm going to go with the 10 by 10. MR. TURNER--All right. Okay. No further comment? PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED MR. TURNER-Motion's in order. MOTION TO DENY AREA VARIANCE NO. 33-1994 CURTIS L. Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved for its adoption, by Fred Carvin: JESSEE, seconded Proposed action is to build a 12 ft. by 24 ft. shed within the 20 foot required side yard setback and rear yard setback. The applicant has other feasible alternatives on the site to locate the shed within the required setback. This difficulty is self-created. Let the record show that the applicant purchased the property from Anchor Builders on March 29th, 1991. The alternative would lessen the vis u a 1 impact of the shed on all the par tie s potent i all y concerned. Duly adopted this 22nd day of June, 1994, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Thomas, Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Carvin, Miss Hauser, Mr. Maresco, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE - 32- .,,- --- ABSENT: Mr. Menter AREA VARIANCE NO. 27-1994 TYPE I I WR-1A CEA HAROLD A. &. ELEANORE SMITH OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE HANNEFORD ROAD (11TH HOUSE ON THE LEFT) APPLICANT WISHES TO CONSTRUCT A TWO HUNDRED SEVENTY (270) SQUARE FOOT ADDITION TO A PRE-EXISTING, NONCONFORMING ONE THOUSAND SEVENTY-SIX (1,076) SQUARE FOOT HOUSE. SECTION 179-16C REQUIRES A TOTAL OF FIFTY (50) FEET FOR SIDE SETBACKS, WITH A MINIMUM OF TWENTY (20) ON ONE SIDE. APPLICANT PROPOSES A SIDE SETBACK OF FIVE (5) FEET TO MATCH EXISTING HOUSE, SO SEEKS RELIEF OF FIFTEEN (15) FEET. (ADIRONDACK PARK AGENCY) CROSS REF. SP 21- 94 (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) 6/8/94 TAX MAP NO. 19-1-11 LOT SIZE: 0.4 ACRES SECTION 179-16C STEVE LYNN, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff, Area Variance No. 27-1994, Harold A. & Eleanore Smith, Meeting Date: June 22, 1994 "Prepared by: Matt Bisignano (Student Intern) Reviewed by: Sue Cipperly, Assistant Planner APPLICANT: Harold A. and Eleanore Smith PROJECT LOCATION: Hanneford Road PROPOSED ACTION: For a 12 it. by 23 it. (276 sq. ft. total) addition to existing home. CONFORMANCE WITH USE/AREA REGULATIONS: Conforms to front, back and one side yard setback of Section 179-16(C), but does not meet the requirement of one side yard setback of twenty foot minimum. REASON FOR VARIANCE REQUEST, AND BENEFIT TO APPLICANT: Proposed addition will be five (5) feet from the property line, minimum setback required is twenty (20) feet. The benefit to the applicant is placing the addition in the proposed location will preserve the vista of the lake that is a natural amenity and will give the applicant more suitable living space. FEASIBLE ALTERNATIVES: There seems to be possible alternatives to this proposed addition by turning the addition ninety (90) degrees counterclockwise on its northwest corner. IS THIS RELIEF SUBSTANTIAL?: The relief being sought is seventy-five (75) percent of the required setback. The relief sought is fifteen (15) feet. EFFECTS ON THE NEIGHBORHOOD OR COMMUNITY: There is no apparent adverse effect on the neighborhood or community. IS THIS DIFFICULTY SELF-CREATED?: The proposed addition is going to contain a new kitchen, bathtub, and closet. These items in the proposed addition must be in accordance with the existing complementary rooms in the existing house. PARCEL HISTORY: Sold to Harold A. and Eleanore M. Smith on July 21, 1991 from Lansing M. and Stephanie L. Pattee. STAFF COMMENTS AND CONCERNS: The proposed addition seems to have some alternative locations, but the proposed location for this addition seems to be the best fun c t ion all y for it. S EQR : T y pel I , no fur the r act i on r e qui red. " MISS HAUSER-On June 8th, 1994, the Warren County Planning Board recommended to approve this request. MR. TURNER-All right. Mr. Lynn. MR. LYNN-I'm Steve Lynn, and with me is Mrs. Smith. I think probably, as far as the alternatives go, we have an area on the north side, in the event that we have a failure and had to replace our system, this is the most beneficial area on the whole the site. Also, from a practical standpoint, this new dining area right now is where the kitchen is. All we're doing is taking the existing kitchen, moving out, so they can have a dining area, because there is no dining area. The closet space in the bedroom is a very bad situation as it is, the way it stands now. What we want to do is get the bedroom area a larger closet area. At the same time, all they have in that bathroom is a shower. They desire to put in a tub with a shower, instead of just having a shower. So I just don't believe there is really a practical alternative. You can't get another closet by moving that building to the north. MR. TURNER-Steve, how much earth cover is there there, at the point - 33 - ----- of the septic system? MR. LYNN-The point of the septic system is where you ve got most of your cover. You've probably got three, four feet. MR. TURNER-Before you hit that ledge? MR. LYNN-Before you hit the ledge, right. If you go south, you'll see the cropping. If you go south, you'll see that the cropping, you can see the cropping right in back of the house, and if you go east, you will see the rock. MR. TURNER-Anyone else have a question or a concern? MR. LYNN-Do you have a set of floor plans there, Ted? MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. LYNN-Okay. Then you understand what I'm saYIng. MR. TURNER-Yes. I know what you're saying. Yes, that was!DY concern. I thought at first that you might be able to turn it to the north, and that's what lead me to my question was, how much cover is there there. How long has that home been there, Steve? ELEANORE SMITH MRS. SMITH-Since 1921. MR. TURNER-Okay. It was probably a camp at first? MR. LYNN-Yes. MR. TURNER-Yes. Okay. No further questions? I'll open the public hearing. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED NO COMMENT PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED MR. TURNER-Any comment, anybody? Okay. Motion's in order. MOTION TO APPROVE AREA VARIANCE NO. 27-1994 HAROLD A. & ELEANORE SMITH, Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved for its adoption, seconded by Robert Karpeles: Proposed action is a 12 ft. by 23 ft. addition to the existing home. The variance request is for relief of 15 feet from the side yard setback of 20 feet. This is a preexisting structure located on the most extreme south part of the property, and has been there since 1921. The question of feasible alternatives is kind of ludicrous in the sense that to the north there is an existing ledge under the total area up there and leaves very 1 imi ted area to further support a septic system if the septic system that exists there now fails. The difficulty is not self created, because if you look at the floor plan of the house, it is the most sensibl e place to put the proposed addition, because it becomes complimentary to the rooms that are in the existing home. The proposed addition seems to be the best, functionally, for all. There is no neighborhood opposition, and this is the minimum relief to alleviate the specific practical difficulty. Duly adopted this 22nd day of June, 1994, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Carvin, Miss Hauser, Mr. Maresco, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE 34- ',,--, --.-/ ABSENT: Mr. Menter NOTICE OF APPEAL NO. 2-94 STAPLES, THE OFFICE SUPERSTORE APPLICANT I S APPEALING A DECI SION BY THE ZONING ADMINI STRATOR REGARDING THEIR PROPOSED SIGN TO BE LOCATED IN THE QUEENSBURY PLAZA. THE ADMINI STRATOR HAS DETERMINED THAT THE BRIGHT RED BACKGROUND, MEASURING ONE THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED NINETY-SIX (1,296) SQUARE FEET I S A PART OF THE SIGN, RATHER THAN A PART OF THE BUILDING, SO THIS SIGN WOULD REQUIRE A VARIANCE. APPLICANT MAINTAINS THAT THEIR SIGN SHOULD BE MEASURED AS THE WORDS ONLY, WHICH WOULD CONSTITUTE A CONFORMING SIGN, AT TWO HUNDRED FORTY- EIGHT (248) SQUARE FEET, AND THAT THE RED PORTION SHOULD BE CONSIDERED PART OF THE BUILDING FACADE. SECTION 140-2 "SIGN AND SURFACE AREA" TAX MAP NO. 103-1-1 ZONING: PC-IA SOUTHEAST CORNER OF QUAKER ROAD AND ROUTE 9, QUEENSBURY PLAZA JON LAPPER, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff, Notice of Appeal No. 2-94, Staples, The Office Superstore, Meeting Date: June 22, 1994 "Staples, The Office Superstore - Appeal of Determination regarding proposed sign. Upon receipt of a Building Permit application to install this sign, the Zoning Administrator determined that the entire red area should be considered a component of the sign. This was based on the fact that: - Nationwide, the Staples sign is a red background with white lettering. This was reflected in a second sign originally proposed to be placed on the rear of the building. - The red panel does not blend at all with the rest of the shopping center facade. A facade plan under review by the Planning Board shows the majority of the plaza with a beige, white, and blue/gray facade. This nonconformity would indicate that the red is a part of the sign, rather than the building." MR. TURNER-Mr. Lapper. MR. LAPPER-Good evening. With me tonight is Christopher Day, from Staples, and also the Sign Consultant, Jim McCoola, from East Coast Signs, to answer any questions. I guess, I think this is pretty straightforward. I'd like to just start out by saying that, as you know, I've been working with Jim Martin on John Nigro Plaza across the street, and Taco Bell and the Bank, and I'm working with him on Red Lobster. Jim and I get along terrifically, and I respect him. I just happen to disagree with his interpretation in this case. I'd like to also point to the definition, in addition to what I pointed out in my letter, of Wall Sign, in the Sign Ordinance. A Wall Sign is defined as a sign which is attached to the wall of a building, with a base and plain parallel to such wall and not extending more than 15 inches from the base of such wall. Very simply, the wall of this building, regardless of the color that it's painted, is the same wall that's on all the other buildings, where, as Sue has given you, we have the design, the new design of the Plaza, which was going to match the architecture for what's there now. We're hoping that Bruegger's is going to go in the corner, and then REX, and that that facade is going to be con tin u e d . We' ve pro v ide d t hat fa cad e p I a n a san ace ommo d at ion, i n order to help Jim and Sue, and also to show the Town what we're planning to do there. We'll continue to fix up the Plaza, however we're not making any promises as to what color it might be in the future, because color is not something that's regulated by the Town. There's not architectural review. We're expecting that most of them will stay a right color. However, if you notice, the Olive Garden is a different color from the rest of the facade. I think what this really comes down to is that Jim's not crazy about the color red, and I think that that's just a matter of personal taste, but the building itself, the panel that's up there now is white. It's not finished. It's just going to be painted red, with the same drivet facia that's been sort of a stucco, that's a smooth stucco, which is the same facia that's on the front of this - 35 - building, front of the building that's been finished at the Mall, and we're working on the rest of the Plaz.a. I have some photographs that I'd like you to take a look at. If the issue is that we have what's called a Business Complex, under the Sign Ordinance, which is three or more separate stores. If the issue is that, in a Business Complex, if you have one style of architecture, or one color, and you change that, that becomes part of the sign, that's not something that's ever been interpreted that way in the Town, and I've got a series of photographs, the Cumberland Farms, down at Exit 18, the Aubuchon Hardware,' which is orange, and the Aubuchon sign is lighted, the whole orange, is lighted at night, and that, obviously, wasn't counted, or they would be way over the square footage, Monroe Muffler Brake, which is right across the street. Everybody knows that's the green and white Plaza. Everything is green and white, and Monroe Muffler Brake has a yellow background, and that couldn't been counted as part of the sign. I understand that red is a bright color, and Jim doesn't like that, and that's a matter of personal taste. When I was here a month ago, I wasn't representing REX, but I was sitting in the audience listening, and I remember that one of the issues that Jim mentioned that was in the Staff Notes was that yellow strip that he wasn't crazy about, and I remember that this Board went on record and said, color is not something that we regulate. We're not here to talk about the yellow strip. MR. TURNER-We don't anymore. We used to. MR. LAPPER-We're only asking to be treated the same as everybody else. MR. TURNER-Okay, but I have a real problem with the whole thing anyway, right to start with. That is part of the sign, the red. You've got red atlas metal panels. MR. LAPPER-No. MR. TURNER-I'm sorry, but that's part of the sign. MR. LAPPER-There are no red atlas metal panels. MR. TURNER-How do you answer the question, nationwide, the Staples sign is a red background with white lettering? CHRISTOPHER DAY MR. DAY-I'll speak to that. I negotiated a deal with Howard Carr, regarding the signs. When we originally talked about signage, the initial plan was to put a red apex metal band up, and that was, we realized that that was not going to be acceptable to the Town. We agreed not to put up any metal band, that we would actually just paint the existing facia of the building. Therefore, the only new thing going to be put up on the facade of that building would be just the letters only. We would be painting the existing facade. No metal panel would be hung. MR. LAPPER-The issue there, Ted, IS that the red is not going to be lighted at night. MR. TURNER-That's fine, but it's still going to be part of the sign, as if you had two posts standing at each end of it, and that was in between it. MR. LAPPER-You may not like the color red, but. MR. TURNER-I have no problem with the color red. what it is. I'm just stating MR. LAPPER-What it is is painting familiar with the Auto Palace store, the building. Is everyone in the Town of Queensbury? - 36- '--/ -../ MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. LAPPER-It's a very attractive store, brick in front. They spent a lot of money fixing the old bus garage, but on the side of that building, is gray, black and red stripes. That's the color of their building. They've painted the building, gray, black and red. We're painting the building red. It's painting the color of the building. MR. TURNER--By argument, because it's stated right here in the letter, nationwide the Staples sign is red background with white lettering, period. MR. LAPPER-Those are their colors. MR. TURNER-That's fine. So that's part of their sign. Their sign is faced off that red background. That is part of the sign. MR. LAPPER-That's the color of their building. MR. TURNER-No, it's not the color of the building. of the sign. It's the color MR. LAPPER-It's discriminatory to treat this as different than. MR. TURNER-It's not being discriminatory. MR. LAPPER-Look at what I've submi tted, in terms of all the pictures. MR. TURNER-I have. I have. MR. DAY-I've driven around the Town of Queensbury. I've seen other stores in the market, and the one that sticks out, in my mind, is the Blockbuster, which is right up here on 254, Blockbuster Video on 254, right near the Shop N' Save. In a situation where they've got the blue awnings, and they're bright gold lettering, that is a situation, in my mind, where the awnings is a treatment to the building, which is obviously suspended from the facade of the building, and the lettering is in addition to that. Was it not considered that that blue is part of the sign? MR. TURNER-I don't recall, they got a variance for that. MS. CIPPERLY-That blue was utilized throughout that Plaza. That's part of the Plaza. MR. TURNER-That's their Plaza color. MR. DAY-Well, I reviewed the pictures that regarding the Price Chopper, the Muffler shop, and the hardware store. The fact that we facade of the building red or white or blue. Jon put together, and the gas station, choose to paint the MR. TURNER-You're not doing that. You're outlining the sign with a red background. It's part of the sign. MR. LAPPER-But if you look at the structure, in terms of a building permit, part of a building, that is a drivet facade, which is exactly the same as what's on Bruegger's. MR. TURNER-Red atlas metal panels. MR. LAPPER-They're not metal panels. There's no metal. MR. TURNER-It says right there on the drawing. MR. DAY-That's incorrect. MR. LAPPER-That's incorrect. 37 ~- -="'" -- MR. TURNER-That's the evidence you submitted. me I'm wrong? Now you're telling MR. LAPPER-No, we are correcting that. What is there right now is white. MR. TURNER-Is that not a metal panel? MR. LAPPER-It's not a metal panel. MR. DAY-If it says metal panel on the drawing, it shouldn't. apologize. MR. LAPPER-That's incorrect, and we want to correct that for the record. What it is is a drivet facia. MR. TURNER-The metal panel is the red background, is it not? MR. LAPPER-No. It's a stucco. What's there now is a stucco. It's existing, and it's a stucco, and it's going to be painted. It's already in place. It's the exact same material that's there. MR. TURNER-You submitted this drawing to the Building Department, didn't you? MR. LAPPER-That was prepared by the sign consultants. MR. TURNER--Okay. MR. LAPPER-And it's incorrect. MR. TURNER-That's the drawing we go by. MR. DAY-We'd like to amend that and go on the record by saying that if it does, in fact, say metal panel, it is inaccurate. It is not our intention, whatsoever, to hang those panels. I apologize if the plan says that, and I can have them correct that, and have them different. MR. TURNER-Do you want me to read it? MR. DAY-And I'm not arguing with you what it says. I'm not trying to be adversarial with you. I'm just saying that I apologize for the inaccuracy of that drawing, and it is not going to be a panel. It's going to be paint. No panels are going to be on there, whatsoever. If it does say that, again, my apologies. I'll cross it of f. MR. TURNER--That's fine, but with red, that's part of the if you sign. re going to outline the sign MR. DAY-We have a number of stores across the Country, and I'm not saying that this one, we paint all the stores in this manner. We do not consider it as part of the sign treatment to the building, as we consider it a treatment to the facade of the building. In a situation where we're painting it red, because that is the color of our store, and then we put our signs on the facade within the parameters of the Town Ordinance, which 1 know that the actual lettering of the Siglì cOlìforms with the square footage we're provided. The color of the sign is the letters that are being white. The red is a treatment to the building which we choose to do, to give us the identity that we have throughout all our other stores. MR. TURNER-To give the sign visibility. the sign. So that becomes part of MR. LAPPER-Architecture also gives visibility, color and architecture. It's part of the building. It's part of what's in the building permit for constructing the substance of the building, - 38- " ~ ",-- the structure of the building. It's a stucco, drivet facade. MR. TURNER-You put white letters on a red. MR. LAPPER-On a red building. MR. TURNER-On a red background that illuminates the sign. the sign off by itself. It sets MR. LAPPER·-OI i ve Garden has a instead of a white background. that taupe is less noticeable. taupe, cr earn co I or ed It's the same thing. background It's just MS. CIPPERLY-Excuse me. I'd like to correct something Mr. Lapper said in his introductory remarks, that goes along with this. He said that the Town really doesn't have any architectural review, and it doesn't, per se, but in Section 179-58 of Site Plan Approval Process, it specifically says, "factors for consideration are the location, arrangement, size and design of buildings, light and sign". So you are not just providing this facade plan to the Planning Board as a courtesy. It's a requirement, and if you get a site plan approved, you are not going to be able to come in and tell any store that comes in there that they can have a different color on that facade. That's going to be your approved site plan. MR. LAPPER-It depends on what the definition of a sign is. If you say the letters. MS. CIPPERLY-I 'm talking about buildings, lighting, sign, size and design. It's your complete Plaza and how it looks. MR. LAPPER-But colors are not something that the Town regulates. MS. CIPPERLY-What I'm saying is, if you submit that to the Planning Board and it gets approved, you're not going to be able to just go and have anything you want, as you first said earlier. MR. LAPPER-We met with the Planning Board last night to discuss that preliminarily, with Red Lobster, and we said, on the record, and they have a problem, that we're not committing to what color that that would be. MS. CIPPERLY-Did they approve your plan with this red sign on it? MR. LAPPER-No. We didn't, they didn't approve anything. We didn't ask for approval. It was just a preliminary discussion, but, Mr. Turner, members of the Board, you can't ignore the photographs that I've supplied. If you look at the Cumberland Farms, that's what you're talking about, in terms of metal attached, and there is it. Was that counted as part of the square footage of the sign? MR. TURNER-You're asking for, you're appealing his decision, aren't you? And I'm telling you I agree with him. MR. LAPPER-But that's treating us differently than other businesses in the Town. MR. TURNER-No, not at all. MR. DAY-When we applied for the building permit, months ago, the plans included on them the facade with the red facia. Those plans were approved and stamped and sent back to us. We, at that time, felt that the facade was understood that the building was going to be painted red, and therefore that's why the plans were stamped. MR. TURNER-The sign is a separate issue. building plans. They just approved the MR. DAY-This IS Jim McCoola. Jim, did you have anything you wanted to say? - 39 - JIM MCCOOL\ MR. MCCOOLA-Jim McCoola. The building permits, Mr. Turner, were issued, Staples, when they took this site, they opted to get their building permits prior to the signing of the lease, to see if the red band would be approved, okay. Once the building plans were approved, with the red band, Staples then executed the lease where they felt the red band was part of the building, and was approved. Now you're taking away from them, they just put all this money into the store. They want to do good business. They're going to be an anchor store in that Center, and you're pulling it right away from them. You already gave it to them. Now you're taking it back. MR. TURNER-l didn't give him anything. MR. MCCOOLA-The Building Department did. MR. TURNER-I'm not the Building Department. MR. LAPPER-Is Mr. Turner's position the position of the other members of the Board? MR. TURNER-That's illY position. I just stated my own. I don't know what the others are. MISS HAUSER-My position is that, if he is amending this and saying he is not using those aluminum panels, 1 do believe he is painting the facade of the building, and we're regulating colors, and if that was beige, probably this wouldn't have been brought up, if it was beige, and going along with the other color scheme in the shopping center there, and I don't think we're in a position where we should be regulating colors on the building. MR. TURNER-We're not, but, you know, they've got a plan there for the whole, see it right there, the lower part. MR. LAPPER-The plan says red for this building. MR. TURNER-I know what it says. MR. MARESCO-You're not painting the whole building red? just painting the top, which is going to? You're MR. LAPPER-Right here, this is the other half of the supermarket, which they're now talking to, intend to lease that. Actually, if you look at what's here, I think you're all familiar with, here's the Olive Garden, and this is the corner, where the Bagel store is going to go. This is where it starts with the new treatment, which is a red band all the way across the top, and then the white, and when you get to Staples, this is what they've already done. They've painted the top of the facade. The rest of the Plaza, the bottom of it is mostly brick and metal, but we're here, when this was a supermar,ket, this used to be stone, and they, because the stone, although it was nice to have stone, it didn't go with the decor of the Plaza (lost word). They did that and the drivet facia also, which has just been done. That will not be red. The red is just going to be in back. They've also re painted the whole rest oft he b u i I din g , the S tap 1 e s b u i 1 din g, w hit e . Sot h eSt a pIe s building is white and red, and the sign is white letters. MS. CIPPERLY-Did I just hear you say the stone facade didn't go with the decor of the Plaza, but the red does? MR. TURNER-That's what he said. MS. CIPPERLY-Is that what you said? MR. DAY-For our purposes, yes. MR. LAPPER-The red is just the facia. Architecturally, the red is -- 40 - '-- -../ now the same as what the whole Plaza is going to be, because they have the same architectural material, component material. MR. MARESCO-But the red is only going to be in back of the Staples, right? MR. LAPPER-Correct, just like Olive Garden has a different color than the white. It's an off white, because that's their color. MS. CIPPERLY-I'd also like to point out, on the other side of that drawing that he put up there is another Staples sign that was supposed to go on the back of the building, and I'd like to know whether you think that's a sign or not. MR. LAPPER-That's been withdrawn. Staples asked me to. MR. TURNER-Do you think that's a sign? MS. CIPPERLY-We were told that this is Staples' sign, red with white lettering, and whether it's painted on the building. MR. LAPPER-I guess there's just a difference, the fundamental difference, by definition, if you have a metal casing with a plastic front, just like Monroe Muffler Brake, I think that the whole thing is part of the sign. There's different kinds of signs that the Ordinance provides for. A wall sign is when you have a flat wall and you just attach the letters. That's a different type of sign than a box sign, a back lit box sign. If that Staples sign wen tin b a c k , it' s not a ma t t e r 0 f w hat co lor i tis . T hat whole thing would have been a sign if it was a box sign, but that's been withdrawn. When Staples came to me and asked me if I thought it was viable to get a variance for the back, I explained that in this Town is that that would be unlikely to be granted, and they did not apply for a variance for a second sign on the back. So that's not part of this application, just an interpretation of whether the red facia is a sign or is part of the building. MR. TURNER-It's part of the sign. MS. CIPPERLY-I guess the other thing that brought this all up is they came in with their building permit, and Jim said, because that sign is so big, you'll need a variance, and they said, no, the Staples lettering is in compliance. So that's really where the difference of opinion came, is, is that sign in compliance. Is that background part of it, and that's where this whole. MISS HAUSER-But was he using these plans, where they were using the aluminum panels? MS. CIPPERLY-Yes. MISS HAUSER -Yes. that's changed. So now Right? he's saying he's not doing tha t. So MS. CIPPERLY-I don't know what you do with that information. MR. TURNER- I don't ei ther. I don't 1 ike it second handed. If you re going to amend this drawing, think you should amend it in the Building Department, not here. MR. DAY--Well, I apologize for that. It's an oversight on our part. Ag a in, I a polo g i z e . MR. KARPELES-Well, I don't think it makes any difference. think it's just one big sign. 1st ill MR. TURNER-It is, exactly. MR. DAY-It was mY understanding, when I was discussing with Howard Carr, regarding the signs and the location of the Queensbury Plaza, -- 41 - was that the red, part of the reason for this location was the red band, and it was our understanding, whether we misunderstood or not, but when we got the bui lding permi ts approved on the plans that were submitted, which included this signage, at that point, we had made the determination that we were going to proceed with this site, and we finalized the transaction because we were going to get the store that we anticipated getting. What I'm hearing this evening is somewhat distressful because it calls into question our identity in the Center, and in how this store will be operated. It's a situated where we felt we were painting the facade of the building. Again, not to re-hash what Jon has already spelled out, but, again, it was our understanding, taking this site, because of the way the building permit, and the plan that was stamped by the Building Department, it was our interpretation that we were going to get our signage this way, and therefore we proceeded with the transaction. MR. TURNER-How do you respond to her remarks she just made, that when you came in, he told you you had to have a variance for the sign? MR. DAY--Well, the variance for the sign was for the rear signage. MR. TURNER~That one right there. MR. DAY-That was not my understanding. My understanding was it was a variance for rear signage, and to be perfectly honest with you, when I started my negotiations with Howard Carr, who represents the Flaum family, I had discussed rear signage and a pylon sign, and Howard said, there's no way you're going to get either of those. You can try for a variance, and give it your best shot, but my advice to you is you're not going to be successful, but the issue of the sign in front was never brought up as an issue of the variance. MR. TURNER-Well, I talked to Jim Martin myself and it was brought up, but you missed it, because it was brought up. MR. DAY-Well, whether it was brought up, it wasn't brought to my attention. MR. TURNER-Were you there? MR. DAY-I was involved in the entire transaction. MR. TURNER-Were you there when he indicated to you that you needed a variance for that sign? MR. DAY-He never, I had one phone conver sa t i on with Jim Mar tin, and that was, it was not, at that point, it had not been indicated to me that we needed a variance for the front sign, regarding the rear signage. MR. TURNER-That's not the way 1 understand it. MR. LAPPER-Well, regardless, we have an issue, here. MR. TURNER-That's fine, but I mean, you know, lets get to the grass roots of it. Lets not play games with it. MR. DAY-I'm not trying to play games. MS. CIPPERLY-I also spoke to the architect for this building, back in December or January, and at that time, I said, a sign that big, you will need a variance for, and he said, well, couldn't we have a bigger sign because we have a bigger building? And I said, that's not how it works. So, I don't know how many di fferent people I need to tell that it either needs a variance, or, you know. - 42 '-- -../' MR. LAPPER-But respectfully, that interpretation is wrong, because we're talking about what color the building is. The building's there. It's existing right now. MS. CIPPERLY-Jim also never said you couldn't have a red and white sign. He just said that one is too big and it needs a variance. MR. LAPPER-Because you're counting the whole facia of the building as part of the sign. MS. CIPPERLY-Correct, and you have misrepresented Jim in saying, and he's not here to defend himself, but it's not that he doesn't like red. It's just that that's a large portion of that corner there, and it's a Staples nationwide, if McDonalds did that same thing, you'd say it was a sign. MR. TURNER-How do you respond to that? Tell me how you respond to that? MR. LAPPER-How can you ignore the pictures that I brought in of other signs that. MR. TURNER-You're not asking that. You're asking for an interpretation for this. They got a variance. Monroe Muffler got a variance in 1978 for their sign. MR. LAPPER-And everybody else that cited? MR. TURNER-They didn't, at Sokol's, up in Sokol's Plaza. didn't come before us. That MR. LAPPER-Okay. They've only been here about two years. MR. TURNER-No, longer than that. MR. LAPPER-Aubuchon? MR. TURNER-Two or three years, maybe, but they didn't come here. I can tell you that, Jon. MR. DAY-To answer your question, how do I respond to that question is, it is not, in our opinion a sign. It is a treatment to an existing building facade. We are not, again, putting any foreign materials up on the building. We are taking the facia that is there. We're painting it red. MR. TURNER-All you're doing is you're taking the panels that were proposed to go there, and you're painting the facade red, doing the same thing. You're substituting one for the other. MR. DAY-Well, I'm painting it, however you want to interpret it. MR. TURNER-Well, that's what you told me you were going to do. MR. DAY-Well, that's what I'd like to do, yes. MR. LAPPER-But it's the same stucco treatment that's on, that's going to be on the whole rest of the building. MR. TURNER-It's not a stucco. It's the outline of the sign. It's part of the sign, encompasses the sign. MR. LAPPER-But the material it's made out of is a drivet facade, the same as on the building. MS. CIPPERLY-Excuse me. Could read the definition of Sign Surface or Area? It says, "the entire area within a single, continuous perimeter enclosing all elements of the sign which forn1 an integral part of the display. The structure supporting a sign shall not be included unless the structure is designed in a way to - 43- form an consider integral background for the display". If that this is an integral part of your display, you don't then. MR. MARESCO-Are all Staples stores the same way? MR. TURNER-All the same, nationwide. MR. MARESCO-Nationwide with the red. MR. DAY Nationwide they're red. MR. LAPPER-But the definition of a Wall Sign distinguishes wall from sign, and this type of sign is when you take the letters and attach them to the wall. It's what's done everywhere else in Town. If you look at Price Chopper, they put the letters on the wall, and the wall is this mirrored wall, which is different than the white stucco. They have the same stucco that we do. MR. CARVIN-Well, the only, how much area would they be allowed? MS. CIPPERLY-I believe it was 364 feet, or something, square feet. MR. CARVIN-Now, let me ask you this. How are we going to determine what 364 square feet is if we go by individual letters? MR. TURNER-Well, they've got 200 and some odd square feet. MR. LAPPER-That's done frequently. You draw a box right around the letters. MR. CARVIN-Just a box? MR. TURNER-Yes. You've got 280 some square feet, right? MR. LAPPER-We're in compliance, in terms of the letters. MR. TURNER-Yes, you're in compliance there. that right there. The only issue IS, MR. CARVIN-Well, I think it's an interpretation. We're certainly not denying you the ability to apply for a variance here. So, this is not a variance hearing. This is an interpretation. MR. LAPPER-Correct. MR. CARVIN-And I think that, at least!I!.Y opinion is that it's fairly straightforward, that the color of the background, according to our definition, could be construed that this is in excess. MR. LAPPER-If we painted the background the same color as the Olive Garden, off white, rather than the white, would you have the same response? MR. CARVIN-Probably, yes. MR. TURNER-The problem that I have is the nationwide logo is this. MR. CARVIN-Because the rest of the Center would all be white. is not. This is something that" s done deliberately to attention, which is, essentially, what a sign does. This bring MR. LAPPER-That's the same as architecture, or painting anything, just like the Auto Palace. MR. CARVIN-Okay, but what you're saying is that this is a logo? MR. LAPPER-It's the same as Auto Palace. They're red. MR. CARVIN-1'm not going to speak to, because I don't know what the nuts and bolts are on Auto Palace. You're asking for an - 44 - '\-~ -...-/ interpretation. I mean, that comes up on variance. I think that argument is better served at a variance hearing. MR. LAPPER-I don't want to be back here talking about a variance. I think this is appropriate as an interpretation, because you can't interpret differently in this Plaza than you do elsewhere in Town. That's just not fair. MR. KARPELES-Well, I don't think that that's unfair. It was a different Zoning Board at the time that that went in, and if this Zoning Board feels that the previous Zoning Board made a mistake, then we'd be crazy to perpetuate that mistake, wouldn't we? MCCOOLA-Excuse me. The building permits were approved for Staples and they executed the lease. Jim Martin and I presented my, Staples, before they executed the lease, they issued prints to how this store was going to look. They submitted them to the Building Department. The Building Department reviewed them, and they approved them. At that particular time, Staples said, okay, we have our building permits. We're going to sign the lease. Three weeks later, after the lease is executed, Staples went for sign permits. At that time, the red background comes up. So now, the fish is hooked, and it's in the boat, okay. Now you're taking something away from them that they thought they already had, that you'd given them already. You did give it to them. Jim Martin s aid, no. The guy t hat did t hat ma de ami s t a k e . The y s i g n e d a lease for ten years. They wouldn't have done it. They walk away from deals like that. Granted, maybe a mistake was made, but they have to suffer. MR. TURNER-In fairness to Jim, he's not here, but, in fairness to him, I can't speak for him, but I don't think that's the case, because I knew this was coming for a long time. MR. MCCOOLA--No, that i..§. the case. That's what was said. That's what was said, that he, it was overlooked, okay, and that's the first time that he's seen the red background, after he (lost word). Staples, they're committing to a ten year lease in your Town, becaus e you approved it, you' r e Bu i 1 ding Ins pector who you pay money to, Building Department. MR. TURNER-The Zoning Administrator. MR. MCCOOLA-Who you pay money to, to make decisions for the Town, approved it. Once he approved that, they executed the lease. They wouldn't have signed the lease. MR. TURNER-Okay. Let me just say this. The Olive Garden, when they came, they started construction, then they came for the sign variance, afterwards. Now they must have been well aware of what the constraints were before they even started, and I'm sure you guys must have been well aware. MR. DAY-We didn't, because as Jim said, and I thank him for pointing this out, and in my opinion, he has stated my position correctly. We signed the lease, and not to bore you with the de t ail son how wed 0 t his, but I b r in g up my Ex e cut i ve Vie e President from Staples, the guy who signs the leases, and he says to me, are we getting the (lost word) here, and I said, yes, we have the building permits, and they were approved. He goes back to his office and he signs his lease, which is almost close to two million dollars without the option periods, and the metaphor Jim uses, we're hooked and we're on the boat, and we're spending money to bring a store up and running that we think is going to look a certain way. Now, Jim is accurate. I've seen deals cave because we don't get the signs that we think we're going to get, and in my opinion, respectfully, Jim is correct. We thought we were going to get this sign this way, and that this meeting tonight to get the appeal on the signage is something that we didn't think we had to got h r 0 ugh, be c a use 0 f the i nit i a Ire s po n s e from the b u i I din g - 45 - permits. So, again, it would have brought into question signing this lease and proceeding with this deal. MR. TURNER-When did you start construction there? When did you get your building permits? MR. DAY-Five, six weeks ago. MR. MCCOOLA-The permits were apprehended, approximately, I would say, three mortths ago. After the building permits were approved, they signed their lease, then I went in for electrical and sign. MR . DAY - The way the 1 e a s e i s s t r u c t u red, the r e 's c a v eat sin the lease that trigger time frames and the building permit is a very big one. It's one that, when we get a building permit, the clock starts ticking on how long we have to build out the space, to when we start paying rent. So that's why we trigger it that way, and now that we've got the building permit, that's when the guy said, okay, we now have a lock-in time frame. The landlord's not going to expose himself to penalties because he can't get a building permit. So that's why a lot of deals, because people aren't sure how long it's going to take to get a building permit, are put in some sort of limbo state until a building permit is issued, which this was one of. Once the building permit was issued, the wheels were greased, and everyone was off and running to get the store up and open. I was in the store today. We're probably four, five weeks away from opening, and the process of going through, I'd have to check my dates, but probably a late July, early August opening for that store, and the process of getting a variance to get this red band, I mean, that's a very big issue for Staples, and for any retailer, because stores are budgeted, and store weeks are sent on, and it's all factored into the financial statements of the Company and all that. So it's a major, major issue. MR. MCCOOLA-I'd just like to say just one other thing. On a different note, not going back to the red issue, but also keep In the back of your mind, we're going to come in here, we're going to employ approximately 50 to 60 people at this store. We're a very clean image store. We're bringing life back into this Center, and all we're asking for is to give us what was given to us, and all we want to do is good business in your Town, really. That's all we want to do. We're investing a lot of money here, and I think it would be great for the Center. MR. TURNER-Again, I've got to tell you something, even though, when you guys come to Town, you know what it is you're up against when you start. You know the criteria for the building. You know what you have to have for signs, and everything else. If you don't know that, I don't know how you can sign a lease. MR. MCCOOLA-Building permits were approved. That why we signed. MR. DAY-That was where I was going with that. Yes, we know what we're up against every time we go into a town to get signage, and that's why when we had the building permit approved with that plan for the facia, we thought we were done, with the red facia. That's why, we know what we're up against, and when we got that favorable response for a building permit, we felt we were over the hump, and we were off and running. MS. CIPPERLY-Excuse me. answer to? Did you show permit? Was the sign on that were approved? Could I ask a question, I don't know the the sign when you submitted your building your building permit? Was it on the plans MR. DAY-Yes. The sign, that is the building elevation. That is on the p I an, w hen we s u bm i t t e d p I an s for b u i I din g per m it, architectural drawings. So, again, yes, to answer your question, we know what we're up against, and when"we got that favorable response, we had to evaluate what we were up against, and the - 46- "- ~ response we were getting from the Town, and we felt that we had successfully gotten what we required, and we went to the expense of putting a lease to bed, and hired everybody to (lost word) the store construction, and hired the subs, went to work shortly thereafter. MR. CARVIN-Is the REX a different color backing? I don't remember. MR. LAPPER-The REX is two colors. There's a white and an off- white, and a yellow stripe, and, Fred, I believe it was you who sa i d, ma y b e I' m w r 0 n g, ma y b e i t was n 't you, but I tho ugh t jus t a month ago Jim and Sue had suggested that one way to compromise on the REX might be to eliminate the yellow stripe, and I thought it was you saying, we're not here to talk about color. MS. CIPPERLY-Excuse me. I never said that. I said that the yellow was not jurisdictional because it wasn't part of the sign, and Jim didn't say that either. MR. LAPPER-Okay. Excuse me, what's the difference, then, to say that yellow is not jurisdictional, is not part of the sign. MS. CIPPERLY-Because it doesn't have any advertising on it. MR. LAPPER-Well, it has a neon stripe. I mean, I'm not arguing that it does. I think it doesn't, but it's just the color of the facia. MS. CIPPERLY-And I was also told that REX, by you, I was told that that REX was going to be the theme for the Plaza, that that was going to be the facade for the Plaza, and then we come up with a different store that wants something else, and then they're the theme for the Plaza. MR. LAPPER-The theme, the architectural design, is not necessarily the exact color of every store. I mean, there's a whole other theory, which doesn't exactly get into this issue, but just in terms of what a Plaza should look like, in a market place, everyone's familiar with Northway Plaza, which is green and white, and everyone thinks it's tasteful and attractive, but it's half empty, in terms of not just the office, but the retail space. I mean, there's a whole other way to market something, which is more of a market place for different colors to attract people. It's not gaudy or ostentatious. It's not a flashing sign, but just to have some colors. There's no rule in Queensbury that every Plaza has to be one color. MS. CIPPERLY-Northway Plaza has also started putting their signs up on the upper panels, instead of those little oblong signs, but they're still, they're an individual sign on a uniform color green background. MR. CARVIN-I guess I would feel better if the Ordinance addressed that, that a sign has to be identifiable, either by border, I mean, I can agree that this looks like a whole border, but on the other hand, I think that he does have a couple of good arguments that there are precedents. There seem to be others in Town where this is just selective enforced. MS. CIPPERLY-Okay. If McDonalds goes into that Plaza and wants to put a red sign with a yellow stripe and an "M" on it, across the front of it. MR. CARVIN-Yes. That's what I'm saying. I mean, I think that the Ordinance should be addressed, that the signs have to have a definite border. In other words, just arbitrarily putting a box around this, I think is kind of ludicrous, because it opens up this whole gamut here of colors. MR. TURNER-I don't have so much a problem with it, with the color, - 47 - but this is their national logo. They , saying, this is the sign. re MR. LAPPER-It's the color of the building. MR. DA Y -- It' s the color we choose to paint all our buildings, and. MR. TURNER-Yes, but your sign is right on the face of it, is it not? On all buildings, is that correct? MR. DAY--Yes. Without question, the majority of the building signage, but it's a color we choose to paint the building. That's where we disagree that it's not a sign. We choose to paint our building red and hang our sign on that. It our identity. MR. MCCOOLA-Regardless if there's a sign on this building or not, they'll paint the back of the building red also. They would also like to do that, with no sign on it at all. Would you call that a sign? MR. CARVIN-I mean, we've got an argument, at Exit 19, there, the guy painted the house three different colors. Now tell me that isn't a sign. The whole house is a sign, with the three different blues. MS. CIPPERLY-He doesn't have a national logo. That's just his own eccentricity. MR. CAR V I N - We 1 1, it' s s t ill a s i g n . as a sign. I mean, it could be construed MR. TURNER -When you come and You're telling me this is your say, this slgn. 1S your national logo. MR. MCCOOLA--Take this photograph right here, okay, this Gulf photograph. Has everybody on the Board seen this? Okay. See the portion of the stand that does not have any copy on it, that's facing the road way? Is that a sign? The facia that has no copy on it, is that a sign? MR. CARV IN--No, would say it's not a sign. MR. MARESCO-It's not a sign. MISS HAUSER-So then theirs isn't. MR. MCCOOLA-So then why would that make our red a sign? MR. TURNER-Because it's your national logo. MR. MCCOOLA-That's their national logo. MR. TURNER-Not necessarily. MR. MCCOOLA-That's contradictory. It1.§., sir. MR. KARPELES-Yes, but their entire perimeter is that color. MR. CARVIN-That's what they're saying they're going to do there. MR. MCCOOLA-If my building was longer, would do the red. MR. CARVIN-In other words, all they have is just the front. MR. KARPELES-Yes, but I mean the perimeter of the whole, this is an individual building. MR. CARVIN-No, it isn't. MR. MCCOOLA-It's a Plaza. - 48- \...-. / ---/ MR. CARVIN-It's a Plaza. There used to be a liquor store, and this is the Subway. So, it's the same thing. MR. KARPELES-Yes, but it's not the same height or anything, is it? MR. CARVIN-Well, no. This is just the. MR. KARPELES-They're all the same height. MR. CARVIN-This is, too. This building runs the whole length here, Bob. They're just outlined there, but this is one contiguous building, and then this is just an island out here. Actually, I think that this Gulf on that is probably not legal, unless it might have been approved prior to '87. MR. MCCOOLA-So you agree it wasn't the sign, right? That's what you said. MISS HAUSER·-I think that Fred brought up a good point, that in the Ordinance it should define, like he said, a boundary around the words and the sign, and if it does not do that, then we're saying that they can't paint a facade a particular color. MR. TURNER-What I'm saying is, this is their national logo, red background, white lettering. Whether they paint it on their building or put metal panels up there, it's still the same thing, to me. MR. CARVIN-Well, I don't think they have an exclusive to a red and white logo. MR. TURNER-That's their national logo, nationwide. MR. CARVIN-Well, no. A logo, I think, is more along the lines of a Gulf sign, or, I mean, a logo is (lost word). MR . TU RN E R - N a t ion wid e , the S tap 1 e s s i g n i s red b a c k g r 0 u n d wit h white lettering. MS. CIPPERLY-Linda, in answer to your question, all I have to offer is that that Sign Surface or Area definition, which says "the entire area within a single continuous perimeter, enclosing all elements of the sign which form a integral part of the display". To Staples, it seems very important that that. MR. CARVIN-Then illY argument would be that we should be looking at that Exit 19 place because of the three different colors. I mean, because I think that that incorporates, fits into the perimeters. MR. DAY-As was just pointed out, that Gulf is their national logo. You drive around to any Gulf station in the Country, and you're going to see that same color scheme, with the blue and the two color border. That is their national logo as well, and the fact that we choose to paint buildings red and put our sign on the building, it's not a registered trademark. There's no copyright to that color scheme. That's what we choose to do. The fact that you are citing this national logo, again, I believe it's unfair of you, what the Gulf has and other retailers in the area, and you agreed that it wasn't a sign, as far as the Gulf was concerned. I don't see how I'm different than that. MR. LAPPER-Also, I have to point you back to the definition of Wall Sign. That's the type of sign that says, a wall sign, and the Ordinance is clear, the definition of a wall sign is what's attached to the wall, and what's attached ar e thes e s epar at e letters that are no more than 15 inches away from the wall. That's what the sign is. So the border of the sign and the sign surface area, the border of the sign is each letter. Each plastic letter has a metal border around it, if it's a back lit box. - Lf'l- MR. TURNER-I still don't want to beat right there tells me that's what it is. is red. a dead horse, but what's It's nationwide. The sign MR. DAY-I understand that you, again, choose to look to this piece of paper. I'm asking you to at least review the evidence from the pictures that we've put in front of you, and be somewhat open minded to the fact that there are precedents. MR. TURNER-I am open minded. I'm telling you that's part of the sign. That's the way.l look at it. That's mY interpretation. They can look at it anyway they want to. MS. CIPPERLY-We also didn't just make up what's on that paper. You've had conversations with Jim Martin, which are reflected there, that you've said that's your national logo, and that's what you want. Your architect had conversations with me, saying that's your national identity. MR. LAPPER-That's the color the buildings were painted, not the sign. MS. CIPPERLY-Are you going to paint the whole building red? MR. MCCOOLA-Yes, they do. MR. DAY-You drive anywhere. If you want to go to Saratoga. We've got a store that's going to be opening up in Saratoga, New York. We're going to paint that building red and hang our sign on it. I could list a number of stores in New Jersey, Connecticut, Long Island, and Manhattan, where we choose to paint the buildings red and hang our sign on it. We hang the sign on a red building. That's what we choose to do, but the red is not the sign. What we choose to hang on the red l.§.. the sign. MS. CIPPERLY-I would suggest, then, that if you're allowed to paint your entire building in that Plaza red, then you've got a different case. MR. DAY-And if we choose to hang a sign on that red? MS. CIPPERLY-Then you've got a red building with a white sign on it, but I don't think that Howard Carr is going to let you paint his entire building red, even your entire portion of it. MR. DAY-Howard's already agreed to do it. MS. CIPPERLY-The front and the back? MR. DAY-Yes. MS. CIPPERLY-Red, all the way down to the curb? MR. MCCOOLA-We choose to paint it red. We've attached drawings to the lease that it would indicate painting the whole building red (lost word). What we have selected to paint red. MS. CIPPERLY-Well, why isn't that on the facade plan that you submitted to the Planning Board, then? If you've talked about this with Howard Carr, why isn't that, the brick, everything, your whole building. MR. DAY-I don't want to paint it all red. MS. CIPPERLY-You just said you did. permission from Howard Carr to do that. You just said you had MR. DAY-No, about what plan. If I did not say that. I said that I spoke with Howard I wanted to paint red, and that is depicted on that I talked to Howard about painting this whole building - 50- ',---, --./ red, we would have depicted that, but I didn't choose to do that. MS. CIPPERLY-I was hoping to get input from the Planning Board on this before we had to consider this as a Zoning Board, because this could very well go back to the Planning Board, and they won't approve that as a facade plan. MR. DAY-Yes. The biggest difficulty here is that we're going to end up being the victim of not being able to get our signs, from what we understood was approval from the Building Department on the plans we original sent in a long time ago. Now, to go through this process is something, again, we didn't think we had any reason to do that, because we were already approved. MR. TURNER-I don't really know how it even transpired, how Jim would not tell you that you were in violation. MR. DAY-The first conversation had with Jim Martin with this. MR. TURNER-Did you talk to him on the phone, or personally? MR. DAY-It was subsequent to Jim McCoola's conversation with him, which was, after the building permit was approved. MR. TURNER-You submitted the sign application. Is that what you're saying? MR. MCCOOLA-Right. Building permits were approved. MR. TURNER-Okay, but the sign wasn't. MR. MCCOOLA-With the architectural drawing. MR. TURNER-The sign was not approved? MR. MCCOOLA-Yes. approved. The facia was approved. The elevations were MS. CIPPERLY-The sign permit application wasn't even submitted when the building plans were. MR. MCCOOLA-No, you're right. MR. TURNER-So that's why it didn't get approved. MR. MCCOOLA-The red was approved. The red was part of the building. What if the architecturals didn't have the sign on there? Regardless if they did or didn't have the sign on there. It's a building. It's not a sign. MR. CARVIN-Was the color red signified in the plan? MR. MCCOOLA-I believe so. I mean, how would, they agreed that that Gulf was not a sign, later, say that that ~ a sign. everyone said that but thirty seconds MR. TURNER-No, but something's radically wrong, because we're getting two different stories. We're getting one from them that says that you weren't told that, and you're telling us that you were told that. How can we interpret anything with that misunderstanding? They're saying that that's not the case, and you're saying you've got an approved plan. I know they don't approve the sign permits without a sign application. MR. MCCOOLA-They approved the building permits, with the red band. MR. TURNER-I don't know. I can't tell you yes or no. All I'm saying to you is, you're saying that, like again, red and white, that's part of the sign, whether you paint it on the building or you put a metal panel up. -- 51 - MR. DAY-But if we choose to paint the building red, and that's what we elect to do, that is not our sign. Our buildings are red. Our signs are white, and that is the distinction that I'm trying to make here, that nationwide, you choose to call it a logo. I choose to call it a red building with a white sign on it. It's not a copyright. It's not a trademark. MR. TURNER-What's the building in Saratoga going to be, all red? MR . DAY -- It' s go i n g to building's going to be white letters on it. be a red band with white letters. painted red and we're going to hang The our MR. TURNER-So it's the same as here? MR. DAY-Correct. MR. TURNER-I still say it's part of the sign, because it's, right here in the Sign Ordinance. Sign Surface, the entire area within a single contiguous perimeter enclosing all elements of the sign. MR. DAY- I'd 1 ike to ask the other Board members, what are Y.QJ!L feelings on this? MR. MARESCO-I have mixed feelings on it. I can understand what you're saying. It's your prerogative to have the color red, the color green, blue, any color you want. We don't have any (lost word) for colors. At the same time, your red is the color of all your stores, and the white is, you know, it's definitely going to be the center of attraction there. MR. LAPPER-How about the fact that the red isn't lighted at night, though? Isn't that significant? That the only thing you see at night are the white letters? MR. TURNER-No. So what? It's all lighted. You can still see red from the road. MR. LAPPER-There's no lights shining on the building. MR. TURNER-It doesn't make any difference. The Plaza's all lighted up. MR. DAY-If the Town, as I understand it, and please correct me if I'm wrong, does not regulate the colors of the buildings that they're painted? Is that accurate? MR. TURNER-We don't. The signs used to be regulated, as to size, color, and everything. Everything had to be coordinated with every sign in the Plaza. If you'd have come, five, ten years ago with that sign, you wouldn't have gotten it unless it was coordinated with the colors in the Plaza. MR. DAY-Well, fortunately, I'm here today, and, again, if you do not regulate the colors of the building, that I choose to paint illY building red and hang a red sign on it, I don't see how I'm in violation of the Ordinance as it's written, and therefore I feel that I'm just in feeling that I should be able to get my red building with my white letters on it. I'm not asking for something outside the parameters of the Code. MR. MCCOOLA-Let me just throw a scenario at you. (Lost word) you came to the Town, here, to get a permit for a shed that you're going to put on your property, and you get a building permit, you get it approved, okay, and you go out and you buy the shed, and you find out you want to do some electrical work. You want to (lost word). So you get an electrical permit for it. Then someone picks it up and says he gave you that by mistake, but here you already have your shed. It's in there. You're ready to go. Now you're going to take it away and say, you can't do that. I mean, it's a - 52- '-' '-"" much larger scale. I'm trying to give you a hypothetical situation and see how you would feel. MR. DAY-And again, we go into towns and we understand what we're up against, and we have attorneys review the Sign Ordinances to see where we stand, in getting our signs, and when we read this Sign Ordinance and we realize that you do not regulate the colors of the bui ldings, and we feel we're in the parameters of the Code as written. I'm no attorney. MR. TURNER-I'm not either, but just let me say this. believe you were blindly lead down the road. I can't MR. DAY-I talked to Howard Carr. discussed this with him thoroughly. I made it crystal clear, from Day One, before we even started talking rental dollars, the importance of signage. I wanted to get the Queensbury Plaza pylon. I tried to negotiate for that, and it was not financially prudent to proceed under that basis. MR. TURNER-Can I hold you right there a minute? When you first started talking with Mr. Carr, did Mr. Carr indicate to you that there was a Sign Ordinance in the Town of Queensbury? MR. DAY-Sure. MR. TURNER-And that didn't ring a bell? MR. DAY-They sent me the Sign Ordinance, and I'm going to have my people review it. MR. TURNER-When did you get it? MR. DAY--A week later, two weeks later. We're talking a long time. This is last, we were up here, there were huge snow banks. It was December or January we were up here first, and that's when I got the Sign Ordinance. I look like a real idiot, with my job and with my people, if I don't have a full understanding of Sign Ordinances before I start negotiating a deal, because there's a lot of time and money of people working on these transactions to get them done, that to get down the road to a certain point, and we've expended dollars on attorneys to prepare leases and documents and travel expenses to get people up here to preview these locations so that they approve them, that if I don't have a thorough understanding of the Sign Ordinances, then I'm not doing my job, and I like to think I'm very good at my job, and that's why I, one of the first questions I ask anybody, whether it's in Glens Falls, New York or Flemington, New Jersey, is to send me the Sign Codes, and Jim's done a lot of work for us, and is continuing to do so, because together with him and my attorneys who review these Sign Codes and understand what we're up against each and every town that we go to to get Sign Permits, and again, Queensbury, after reading this Sign Code, we feel we're in the parameters of the Sign Code, and therefore shouldn't have a problem getting these building done. The examples that Jon has brought in, the Gulf, and the Price Chopper, and the hardware store, etc., to me, reinforce our position on this matter, and that we are not asking for something that isn't already existing, nor are we asking for something that goes against the letter of the Code. MS. CIPPERLY-Did you ask anybody, back in December, sign would be allowed or not? Did you ask anybody? whether your You assumed. MR. DAY-I did not assume. Sign Code, and. got the Sign Code. reviewed the MR. TURNER-All right. Can I ask you a question? Area, you never questioned that? Sign Surface MR. DAY-The sign, because the wall sign is the sign. The sign is - 53- not the red band. MR. TURNER-You never questioned that Section of the Ordinance? MR. DAY-No, I didn't. I saw no reason to question it. MR. TURNER-I think it's pretty clear. It says it right there. MR. DAY-Respectfully, when I see that language, I look it over, the Wall Sign, a sign which is attached to the wall of a building with a base and a pl~ne parallel to such wall and not extending more than fifteen inches from the space of such wall. That is what my sign is. MR. TURNER-Sign Surface or Area, you didn't read, though. Did you not? MR. DAY-I've read it all, the entire within a single contiguous parameter enclosing all elements of the sign which form an integral part of the display. The structure supporting a sign shall not be included unless a structure is designed in such a way to form an integral background for the display. Only one face of a double faced sign shall be include on the surface area or area of such sign. My opinion of a building is not a sign. The sign has a structure to it, that it's going to be illuminated letters that are hung on a building which we choose to paint red. MR. TURNER-I totally disagree with you. We're not dictating the color you paint the building. The problem I have with this is just as I stated initially. This is your color of your store and the background for your sign, right there. MR. DAY-Well, perhaps to avoid this confusion in the future, and, again, I'm not trying to get in anyone's business here. Am I In agreement with you that the way the Code reads, I'm not in violation of the Code? If you choose to interpret it that it's part of the sign, obviously, you have your interpretation, and you're entitled to it. I'm saying that the way the Ordinance reads, I am not in violation of that, because it is not my sign. I choose to paint the building red, and I feel we're chasing our tails here a bit, but that's, again, my position, that I'm not, the fact that we choose to paint our buildings red is our election to do so for our colors. McDonalds uses gold and brown, and everyone else chooses their own background. Blockbuster uses blue and gold. That's their prerogative. We happen to choose red, and it's not part of our signage. MR. TURNER-You're not aware that Blockbuster wanted to go in there one time and the reason they didn't go in there was because they couldn't have their colors, because at that time, the colors had to be coordinated. MR. DAY-Well, I'm just getting frustrated because, again, the way the Ordinance is written, perhaps the Ordinance doesn't specify clearly, I guess, what your feelings are. The way I had interpreted it, and the way that mY people have interpreted it, and again, in getting the approval for the building permit with that fa cad e d raw i n g, wee 1 e c t e d to s pen d a g rea t de a 1 0 f mo n e y and proceed under the understanding that we were going to get what we had been approved under a building permit. Now, to be honest with you, calls the whole deal into question, as to what we're doing here, because we've got pictures that are up. I would say very shortly we're going to have trucks going in with inventory stocking shelves. That's the last step. If you look at the windows in that store, everything's there. The aisles are numbered, the register counters are in. I mean, we're really close to kick off here. MR. TURNER-When you got your building permit, you did not get a permit for your sign, did you? - 54 - ,--,. "-"" MR. DAY-We did not get a permit for our signs, but the signs were on the plans for the Building Department. The elevations were, and when that was approved, it was our understanding, as well as by going by the letter of the Code, that we wouldn't have this problem, because you don't regulate the colors of buildings, and we choose to paint a building red and hang a sign on it. MR. TURNER-I don't think we are. the building. The bottom half right? We're not regulating the color of is a different color altogether, MR. DAY-So if I choose to paint the entire building red and hang a white sign it, you're saying I wouldn't have a problem there? MR. TURNER-You're saying you paint your buildings red. MR . DAY - Rig h t . MISS HAUSER-I wonder if they had red somewhere else on the building, then are you going to still say it's part of the sign, if they put a second stripe on it? MR. DAY-If I painted every front square inch of my building red, from ceiling to columns, down to the sidewalk, loading doors, everything, and I hung a white sign on the building, would you allow me to do that? MR. TURNER-It's part of that sign. It's the outline for that sign. That's illY argument. MR. DAY-So the fact that I choose to paint the majority of my bui Iding red and hang a whi te sign on it, you're not going to accept that? MS. CIPPERLY-That's really a Planning Board, Site Plan Review matter, not this one. MR. MCCOOLA-One thing. We're all in, as we all know, we re under an economic strain as well. All we want to do is come in here and do good business. We want to all get along here. MR. KARPELES-Why can't you do good business with the same size sign that everybody else has got up there? You haven't painted that red yet. MR. MCCOOLA-But we wouldn't maybe have taken this site, we wouldn't have taken this particular location, if we weren't given the red, okay. Now we re coming in here, we want to do good business. We're going to employ 60 people in Town. MR. KARPELES-We want you to do good business, too, and we think you'll do good business with a sign like everybody else has got. MR. LAPPER-How about the building right next door to this, the Quick Lube. It's a drivet facade. It's the same stucco. It's painted gray, because that's their national color. Nobody counted the whole building as their sign, because it's gray. MR. TURNER-They've only got eight stores. color. That's not a national MR. LAPPER-Well, that's not a pertinent point, whether it's national or regional. MR. TURNER-That's not even pertinent to the question. The question is, is this a sign? Yes, it's a sign. It's part of the sign. MR. LAPPER-But the same issue, other people paint their buildings a certain color. - 55 - -- MR. TURNER-Jon, you're not painting the building. You're painting the outline of the sign and the sign is part of that outline. That highlights the sign. You admit it right here tonight. You said that is your national color, and the sign on it. MR. DAY-I guess what I'm saying, again, if I could reiterate, if I choose to paint the entire building red, the whole front of the store, the back of the store, the loading doors, everything, and I choose to put my sign on the building, is that acceptable? MR. TURNER-We , not dealing with that tonight. re MR. DAY-We very well may be, soon. MR. TURNER-No. We , re talking about this. Lets stick to this. MR. DAY-Well, fine, lets stick to it, and we'll go through all this again. This is, we are within the way the Code reads. There is precedent in the Town that these signs exist. We choose to paint our building red. It was approved in a building permit earlier, and we then assessed. MR. TURNER-Building permit, not a sign permit. MR. DAY-A building permit, with the elevation stamp on it. MR. TURNER-Not a sign permit. MR. DAY-Well, then somewhere down the 1 ine corrununications were screwed up, because we signed a two million dollar lease. We've got I don't know how many hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in this store already, and now I'm looking at not getting signs that I thought I was going to have, and it causes a great deal of problems. MR. TURNER-You still have to get a sign pern1it. MR. MCCOOLA-Lets use our imaginations a little bit and the words, "Staples, the Office Superstore" off your blue prints. Is that a sign? What you're saying, take the copy right off of that facia. Is that a sign that building? Is it a sign? Use your imagination, take off the word, "Staples, the Office Superstore". Is that a sign now? Is it a sign? MR. MARESCO-No, it's not a sign. MR. MCCOOLA-No, it's not a sIgn. That's my po i n t. MR. MARESCO-But, when you put the white lettering on there, then the whole thing becomes a sign. MR. MCCOOLA-Lets keep on this point. After I take the letters off and the letters aren't on there, wha<t is it then? What would you call it? A facia? MR. TURNER-There wouldn't be a sign there. wouldn't it? It would be the facia, MR. MCCOOLA-A red facia, okay, and just because I put letters on there, it becomes a red sign. MR. TURNER-No. MR. CARVIN-I think what you have to do, to make your point, is put a border around the Staples, and then that becomes the sign. It doesn't matter what the red becomes after that, is mY feeling, because according to a strict interpretation of our Ordinance, without a border around this, then the whole thing becomes a sign, because the whole color brings attention to this area. My feeling is that if you put a border around that, then that becomes the sign - 56 - '--, --/ area. MR. MCCOOLA-If we put a white border around it. MR. CARVIN-I don't care if you put a purple border around it. We can't tell you what color to put. MR. MCCOOLA-We'll put a white border around the sign. MR. KARPELES-·Yes, but then the area of the sign is everything within that border. MR. CARVIN-That's correct, and that's within compliance with the Ordinance. MR. MCCOOLA-Yes, no problem. MR. CARVIN-Do you know what I'm saying? If they put a white border, and even if it's red in the back, then that becomes their sign. MR. TURNER-If they break it right here, and put a white strip, or anything. MS. CIPPERLY-And everything inside that border has to be within the square footage requirements. MR . DAY - Do n e . I'm v e r y hap p y wit h t hat . I can 1 i ve wit h t hat . MR. TURNER-But I've got to tell you, you can't argue the point that that's not a sign. MR. DAY-Well, I mean, I'd be lying to you if I said this is the first time I've had that argument, but, again, I maintain that if you paint the building red. MR. CARVIN·-All right. Do we have to make a motion for an interpretation here? I mean, have we supported Jim? MR. TURNER-Do you want to withdraw your interpretation? It would make it a lot easier on us. MR. DAY-That's fine. withdraw my interpretation. MR. TURNER-All right. When you put a border around, the sign has to conform to the Sign Ordinance as to square footage, all right. MR. DAY-Absolutely. AREA VARIANCE NO. 32-1994 TYPE II UPPER GLENS FALLS DEV. CORP. HC-IA OWNER: ROGER &. BARBARA BRASSEL BAY ROAD APPLICANT PROPOSES TO SUBD I V I DE A NINE AND SIXTY - EIGHT HUNDREDTHS (9.68) ACRE LOT, AND USE A RESULTING TWO AND SIXTY-EIGHT HUNDREDTHS (2.68) ACRE PARCEL TO CONSTRUCT AN OFFICE BUILDING. SECTION 179-23C REQUIRES A FIFTY (50) FOOT BUFFER BETWEEN COMMERCIAL AND RESIDENTIAL ZONES, WHICH APPLICANT PROPOSES TO ELIMINATE. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) 6/8/94 TAX MAP NO. 60-2-11 LOT SIZE: 9.682 ACRES SECTION 179- 23C JON LAPPER, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT MR . LAP PER - Mr. T urn e r, a s a fin a 1 wi thdrawing the last i tern from the parcels. So we no longer need the 50 the other side of the site. way to say thank you, I'm agenda tonight. We changed foot setback. We've moved to MR. TURNER-Thank you. MR. CARVIN-Now, what's the story on Sonny Spahn here? Do we have a request? -- 57 - .-> MR. TURNER-Yes. REOUEST TO RE-HEAR USE VARIANCE AND SIGN VARIANCE APPLICATIONS FOR SONNY SPAHN, OWNER: SAME. TAX MAP NO. 73-1-17, 51 AVIATION ROAD, IN A RR-3A ZONE. APPLICANT PROPOSES FREESTANDING SIGN IN A ZONE THAT DOES NOT PERMIT SIGNS. MOTION TO APPROVE DID NOT RECEIVE ANY MAJORITY PLUS ONE VOTE REQUIRED AFTER WARREN COUNTY PLANNING BOARD DENIAL. MR. TURNER-We have a request to re-hear Sonny Spahn's Sign Variance. MR. THOMAS-Did he get a re-hearing at the County? MR. TURNER-No. He withdrew it. Okay. We have some notes from Mike Muller in reference to the Sonny Spahn application. MISS HAUSER-"Mr. Spahn's request for Re-hearing Susan Please inform the Board that although I would have preferred to stay to the end of the meeting in order to personally present Mr. Spahn's request for a re-hearing, I am under limited instructions from my client not to hang around and run up a large legal fee. More specifically, I would appreciate it if the Board voted in favor of re-hearing the application and at least for the following reasons: 1. The ZBA did by a majority vote approve Mr. Spahn's application, however, because the County Board voted to "deny" the application "failed". In fact, it appears that the County Board votes to DENY AL L s i g n val' i an c e a p p 1 i c a ti 0 n s a sa" ma t tel' 0 f po li c y" . The applicant would like to have a "fair hearing" before the County Board, as the policy is misguided in that Mr. Spahn's location requires a "sign variance" for any sign as the zone does not permit any signs. 2. The applicant has changed his application and if heard by the ZBA on the renewed application the proposed sign would be "smaller", and further back from the road. We believe this to be an application that is different. Please allow Mr. Spahn an opportunity to present his application. Thank you - MR. TURNER-What's your pleasure, ladies and gentlemen? MR. THOMAS-The applicant has changed his application. like he needs a new one. It sounds MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. THOMAS-Not to re-hear the old one. He needs a new one. MR. TURNER-Yes. Well, no. to request are-hearing. The old one was turned down. He can't submit it again. So he has MR. THOMAS-Even if there's a significant change to it? MR. TURNER-I don't know how much, how much change is there to this? MS. CIPPERLY-He changed the (lost word) to request the three by five. MR. THOMAS-If it goes back to the County, will they do the same thing? Do they deny all Sign Variances? MR. TURNER-Yes, I think they will. MR. THOMAS-So, he's right in the same boat. If they're going to deny it, they need a majority plus one, here. MS. CIPPERLY-By the sound of it, he's preparing to do battle with their sort of routine denial of. The picture's on the map here, three by five. MR. TURNER-Three by five, and his other one was? - 58 - ~ -../ MS. CIPPERLY-His other one was, I believe, four by eight, four by six. MR. TURNER-Four by eight. MS. CIPPERLY-Here's a sign, a picture of the new one, three by five, two feet off the ground, which is what your resolution to approve, I think. MR. CARVIN-Yes, four by six. It was reduced. My feeling is that Mr. Spahn, I took a ride out there tonight. He has signage in every window. think he's in violation of the Sign Ordinance already. MR. MARESCO-He has another sign anything? There's a big sign. I in was the back. Does there today. tha t mean MR. CARVIN-Yes, thanking everybody. MR. MARESCO-It says thank you, God bless you, and have a safe trip. MR. CARVIN-Yes, and they've changed the traffic pattern. MS. CIPPERLY-This is part of the freedom of speech thing, based on the court case that was in the paper. MR. MARESCO-Yes, but that says on personal residences. say about commercial. It didn't MS. CIPPERLY-Yes. I told Mike Muller that I thought that did not apply to commercial speech, but I'm not an attorney. MR. CARVIN-They've also changed the traffic lights out there. That whole site has become a very dangerous area. They have a light there, but it's offset. Now, he came out of the lot tonight and made a left hand turn, right in front of me, and then when I came out trying to make a riRht hand turn, there was a guy coming off the Northway that didn't see me. So the two of us came to a screeching halt right in the middle of the intersection, but my feeling on the sign is that I don't think it's significant, and I think, with all the signs that he's got hung in every window, every window. MR. THOMAS-Yes, I noticed that. MR. CARVIN-I mean, plus the three colors, plus the fact that he didn't want to make this look like a honky tonk area, and that's exactly what it looks like. MR. TURNER-All right. What's the Board's pleasure? Do you want to make a motion to re-hear it or not re-hear it? MR. THOMAS-I'd say give the guy an even break. I'd say re-hear it. I'll make a motion to re-hear it. MR. CARVIN-It has to be a unanimous vote, right? MR. TURNER-Yes. It has to be unanimous of everybody here. Okay. The motion fails for lack of a second. Do we have another motion to deny the re-hearing? MR. CARVIN-I'll second Chris' motion. MR. TURNER-All right. MOTION TO RE-HEAR USE VARIANCE AND SIGN VARIANCE APPLICATIONS FOR SONNY SPAHN, Introduced by Chris Thomas who moved for its adoption, seconded by Fred Carvin: Duly adopted this 22nd day of June, 1994, by the following vote: - 59 u -~..-----' AYES: Mr. Thomas, Mr. Karpeles NOES: Mr. Carvin, Miss Hauser, Mr. Maresco, Mr. Turner ABSENT: Mr. Menter MR. TURNER-It doesn't go. No re hearing. On motion meeting was adjourned. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED, Theodore Turner, Chairman - 60 -