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1996-03-27 " , o R 1 G 1 ~~.\ L QUEENSBURY ZOf1ol1NC·, BOARDQIf' AP?EALS SECOND REGULAR MEETING MARÇJi !a~,. 19961) ¡, INDEX . ':,' !Tf" " Area Variance No. 8-1996 AMENDMENT David Kenny The Meeting Plac~~~st~ 1 . Sign Variance No. 9-1996 Tax Map No. 61-1-37.20 Westwood Hom~oWQer~s AS$Qciation 4. Area Variance No. 11-1996 Larry W. Clute Tax Map No. 117-3-18, 19, 20 1',/ 13. Area Variance No. 16-1996 Michael, Manager Tax Map No. 71-1-9 Pizza Hut 1" 17. Area Variance No. 18-1996 Kevin Kane Tax Map No. 45-3-24 32. ,,; .) THESE ARE NOT OFFICIALLY ADOPTED MINUTES AND ARE SUBJECT TO BOARD AND STAFF REVISIONS. REVISIONS WIL,L,APPEAR ON THE RPl;.LO~lNCMONTHS MINUTES (IF ANY) AND WILL STATE SUCH'APPROVAL OF SAID MiNUTES. ~ Ii '; J :- 1 , : --~ ~l , , 1 1 L-> ~ j , ;. , ~ '1 ." . " '¡j1 i , ; I ! , : ¡¡ :,: J: '1:1 :,1 I' <, i" t;¡ . () , . ) i J';: ,f r~ ,f! ,f-~ () ~ '¡ ',' {'~ i \ ~ '1 , I, f ¡ ; ~,/' 1 " ,1 ¡ , (;, " ¡ ¡, .' r " ,I \. , . (Queensbury ZBA Meeting '3/27/96) ¡ QUEENSBURY ZON I NG BOARD OF APPEALS SECOND REGULAR MEETING MARCH 27, 1996 7:00 P.M. MEMBERS PRESENT FRED CARVIN, CHAIRMAN CHRIS THOMAS, SECRETARY WILLIAM GREEN BONN I E LAPHAM ROBERT KARPELES DAVID MENTER MEMBERS ABSENT THOMAS FORD PLANNER-GEORGE HILTON PLANNER-SUSAN CIPPERLY StENOGRAPHER-MARIA GAGLIARDI AREA VARIANCE NO. 8-1996 DAVID KENNY THE MEETING PLACE REST. MR. CARVIN-Before we begin, I guess business, regarding Area Variance No. corrections in the square footage. that? we've got one matter of old 8-1996. I guess we have some Would Staff care to address MR. HILTON-Sure. STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff, Area Variance No. 8-1996, David Kenny-The Meeting Place Restaurant, Meeting Date: March 27, 1996 "Based on revised information submitted by the applicant, the density and square footage requirements listed in the motion to approve Variance 8- 1996 have been found to be incorrect. The previous motion listed the new addition at 720 square feet for a new total of 61,732 square feet. The revised information submitted by the applicant lists the new addition at 800 square feet for an overall total of 58,890. These figures have been reviewed by the staff and have been found to be correct. A new motion for approval is necessary in order to accurately reflect the amount of relief the applicant is seeking and the amount of overall footage on site. ON SITE SQUARE FOOTAGE MOTEL = 49,478 RESTAURANT (1 ST FLOOR) = 4,500 RESTAURANT (2ND FLOOR) = 2,000 SWIMMING POOL = 2,112 TOTAL SQ. FT. = 58,090 PROPOSED SQ. FT. = 58,890" MR. CARVIN-My only question is that on the application, I believe that the numbers that were cited there were in that 61,000 area. MR. HILTON-Right. MR. CARVIN-How's that going to affect anybody checking the record? MR. HILTON-Well, we have this note, which I have presented to you this evening. It's going to be in both files, and it states that - 1 - '.."" (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) the, proposed ~quare footage, with ~he new addition, be 58,890, and if you amend your motion to represent that figure, we'll have it in the minutes and in the file for the record. MR. KENNY-I'm David Kenny, owner of the Meeting Place Restaurant, aond, I ,wasn't hter1e¡.at; ¡t¡ ¡l,e ~last 'me~ting., I was oiuito,f ;town. What I did wastook'th~i ~it,e, plan. ;that was, given to ,us wheJ\we built the motel back in 1988, that floor plan of 22,700 square feet. George " wasf\.,' t awar;e ,that tha¡t¡ ,includes a pool., So if he thought; was just ,mptel and totale~, that figur~; then!a.çIµed the, pool, into that figure, it would essentially skew it off by aþout ~ or 5,000 square feet. When I got wind of this, I said, you know, lets try to bring the rec,ord ,t,Q be moreaccurat~ .Whqt I did; was, color (fOdEr and chronicle the events of when each section of the building was built I and ,how,it was'app.roved. ,The Sqme pl~n that you h~ve/'ibEdore :you, but I color coded it and I put the new numbers in place, and what I come up with, fairly accurate, is when the structure is totally finished, after this expansion, will be 57,444. Now ,thef'E~ is another 1,000 square feet, or 1,400 squar e feet addi t i on that I G~orge and I spoke today, he didn't consider it part~f the site, the restaurant o,asClost words). I f "you add it ,in to the, square footage, it's approximately 58,800, but the actual building without that is 57,400. So I couldpass,thi,s out to you, ,each building, the square footage, and the exact numbers. . ,.....\ '1 \ ;' MR. CARVIN-Okay. Well, does anybody want to look at that, but I definitely think that should be part of the record. ,'í' r ',I ¡ MR. KENNY...I;took,it out ,and ,measured it. "I made ¡ten, p~pies of it. MR. CARVIN-Okay. ."î ,-'\( \' .:t l' r MR~ H1J..,TON7jQkaYl. Mr. Carvin,;;I:d;jµst like to say that I haven't been, prov ided wi.th th¡is ,1 Ls;t, and I hqve, on the appl icant' s :handwritÜ')grand, YO\j,J~f}OW, this is h,is ~h,eet that we went over, ßt.ates58.¡890. , " MR. KENNY-Right. , ,i MR. HILTON-So that's what I was going by. ! ~. MR., KEI)./NY-That has the second story of the r,es,taurant, this doesn't. . ;.1) '~_I.tv~ ',i i !', f',,_!, MR.HILTON",Where's the restau¡rant mez~anine? MR. KENNY-I didn't put it in there. It's not in there. . j ~ t ~ < .. ! t f: {', "¡ ¡MR. HiJ;TON-Okay. Well, that's going, to be up to th,eBoard. J..:, , 'J 'J' Î MR. CARV IN-d ith in.k Mr.. Thomas has a; ques1: i on. 'i). ,MR.THOMAS-On,thia map you pFQv.ided us with, it shows an addition ,qn the~ sQuths1de Qf the bui¡ld,ing, an enclosed ,deck: of~bout 800 square feet that was put on at some point in time. Is that added into all those figures? f I I' f ,I MR. KENNY-Yes. As of 1995, see the orange sheet I gave you, as 1995, fol," 1995. the deck onthasouth side. that would be the orange, the 800 (lost word) 56,644. Now I have two measurements there, one is site plan and one is my actual measuremen'ts. I.f you look at the building back, when I bought the building back in 1978, the old Motel was 4500 square feet, by site plan. When I actually went out and measured it, it came to 4468, to round things off, 4500. MR. THOMAS-Okay. That addition on the south,iside, Íin the 1995 deck - 2 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) enclosed, did you get site plan approv~l on that from the Planning Board? MR. KENNY-Yes, I did. MR. THOMAS-Would a var iance have: bèen requi red for that" 'because of th'e highway setback, because it's less than the 75 feet? MR. HILTON-Having not been here at the time', I don't know what the events were, but I think that if it were below the 75 lineal feet, that it may have needed a variance. MR. KENNY-There was a variance required in 1994 for it. MR. THOMAS-For the ramps, in the front, becausë I was here for that one. MR. KENNY-Right. MR. THOMAS-But this deck on the south, the enclosed deck on the south is the one that l had questions about last week. MR. KENNY-The scale is one to twenty. MR. THOMAS-One to twenty. Yes, it's 87, I think it is, comes out. MR. KENNY-At that point in time, the Town, I came to the Town, they said it needed site plan. f didn't need a variance for that. MR. THOMAS-Yes. Okay. r¡! MR. KENNY-And again, the structure was right at the limit, 56,644, or 56,418, depending on what numbers you go by, and what Gèòrge figu'red out, allowed 56,643. So I also, at that point, (lost words) so the Planning Board or the Planning Department at that time stated all I needed was site plan review, which '1 (lost words) back in 1985. MR. THOMAS-Okay. That's the only question I had last week. MR. CARVIN-Are there any other questions of the applicant? Okay. I woUld ask Mr. Creen if he would care to amend his motion. MOTION TO AMEND AREA VARIANCE NO. 8-1996 DAVID KENNY-THE MEETING PLACE REST., Introduced by William Green who moved for its adoption, seconded by Bonnie Lapham: To correct the figures of actual square footage. The new addition will be 800 square feet, not 720. I would amend that 720 to 800, wherever it is in the motion, bringing the corrected total square footage to 58,890. This is actually a réduction in thefijures stated in the original motion, due to incorrect current square footage measurements of the building. At, this point, we believe 58,890 to be 'the correct total squaré footage after the 800 square foot addition. Duly adopted this 27th day of March, 1996, by the following vote: AYES: Mrs. Lapham, Mr. Green, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Carvin NOES: NONE ABSTAINED: Mr. Menter ABSENT: Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Ford 'MR. KENNY-Thank you. - 3 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) NEW BUSINESS: SIGN VARIANCE NO. 9-1996 TYPE: UNLISTED MR-5 WESTWOOD HOMEOWNER'S ASSOC. QW,NBR; SAME AS ABO~E, BAY ROAD TO CLENWOOD AVENUE, ENTRANCE TO WESTWOOD IS ABOUT 665 FEET FROM BAY ROAD ON THE RItCHT APPLICANTPRQPOSES ONE ADDITIONAL SIGN IDENTIFYING THE "WESTWOOD" RESIDENTIAL COMMUNITY. THIS SIGN REQUIRES RELIEF FROM SECTION 140-6(B)(3)(g) (WHICH PERMITS ONE SIGN AT THE ENTRANCE OF AN,APARTMENT COMI?I,EX).LAND ,&EÇTIONIJ40-6(B)(I)(a) WHIÇH;REQUIRES A " 15 FOOT SETBACK, FROM A PROPERTY LINE FOR A FREESTANDING SIGN. WARREN COUNTY PLANNING 3/13/96 TAX MAP NO. 61-1-37.20 LOT SIZE: N/A SECTION: 140-6(B)(3)(g) SECTION 140-6(B)(I)(a) , . TED YOUNG, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT STAFF, INPJ.¡JT Notes f.rom Staff, Sign Varia.nc,e No. :9-199·6, ,Westwood Homeowner's Associati(>n. Meet:i,og, Date: Ma.r¡çh 27, 1996 "PROPOSEDP:1WJECT AND CONFORMANCE WITH THE ORDINANCE: The appl icant proposes one ,additional sign i,dentifying the 'Westwoo4" ves,identialcommunity. This sign requires r e 11 e f from Section 1 40 - 6 (B) ( 3 ) (g) " which permits one sign at the entrance of an apartment complex; and Section 140-6 (B) (1) (al) which requir.esa, 15 foo:t setback from a property ,line fora f(eestanding sign,.; 1. How would you benefit from the granting ~f thi~ Sign Vari.nce? The appli~ant states that a. variance would permit i reasonable visibility of the signs and entrance to ~estwoo~~ 2. .What effect would this sign have on the character, of ¡the neighbo£,hoodí ,and the heal th, safety and welfare of the community? It appears that there would be limited impact to the ove¡;all neighborhood.: Ottþer conments may be provided at the public, hearing", 3. A..e.there feas,ible a,l:ternatives to this variance? The applicant has the ability to use a double sided sign instead of the single sided sign currently being used. In addition, the applicant is allowed a sign of up to 50 square feet. The applicant has indicated that ~hey feel a sign;of 50 square feet would be an eyesore to the community. However, they could use a sign which is smal,ler than 50 square feet but bigger than the'7.5 square feet per sign which is being proposed. 4. Is the amount of reI ief sub.s.tant 1,al relati ve ¡,to th,e, Of(dinance? Th~ appl icant is proposing two signs which are to be located three and one half feet from. tite 'property line. The r.equired s,etback is 15 feet. Two signs of 7.5 sq. ft. each are being proposed. The sign ordinance allows for only one sign for apartment complexes. 5. Will the v,s-riance have an adverrse effect, or impact on the phys ical or envJronmental condi tions in the neigbþor.hood? ,The p,ropos¡ed signs would not effect the physical or environmental cenditions in the neighborhood. SEQR: Unlisted, short form EAF review needed." .'MR. THQMAS,i'¡'At a meeting of the Warren County Planning Board, -held on the 13th day of March 1996, the above application for a Sign Variance to place one additional sign identifying the 'Westwood' resident,ial oØ11lß1llnity. was reviewed and the following action was taken. ,R.ecormnenda.t-ipn to: NO COUNTY IMPACT CQmments: SI nee thi s is very small and low to the ground." Signed by C. Powel South, Chairperson. MR. CARVIN-I don't see a Short EAF. MR., THOMASrd don't have an original Short EAP in here, either. , MR. H IL TON-:; I don't hav¡ea :fl~rJIl. eJ :ther . I don't know if we have anotþer one, we eO\lld halve the appl.icant fill: it out, possibly. MR. CARVIN-Is the applicant here? Did you fill out a Short Environmen;tal Assessment Form by any chance? , , MR. YOUNG-I don't beiiel\f~ so. My, name is Ted Young, the President of the Homeowner's ASSOQíl,,ation. I'm not quite sure if this form - 4 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) was given to me at the time I filled out the papers. packet and made 10 copies. I got one MR. CARVIN-Do you have an extra one, 'George?" T,:' '). ' MR. HILiÖN-I' 11 check and' see if there's one in ~mother applic~tioh. Do you have one? ~ ~ MR. CARVIN-¡ guess that's it. Okay. All rigíht. 'Dòe$ ever'yone undersÜmdwhat the' a'ppHclmt is proposing and requesti'ng? Are there any questions'of the applicant?!;;¡ , " MR. GREEN-Just the overall height from the ground to the top? MR. YOUNG-It will be approximately two to two and a half feet from the ground. The sign is, itself, I think, at its highest point from the top to the bottom of the sign is 18 inches, and it'll be elevated up off the ground on a couple of posts, probably no higher than this desk, which I would assume is about 30 inches. MR. CARVIN-And how far back from Glenwood Ave. are these sign, currently? MR. YOUNG-Well, at the moment, they are, the one sign, there were two there oriainatly. One was advertising homes for sale. They've been there for about eight or nine year's.f The one was ftaken down about two years ago, I guess, and we only have this one sign, which faces west. Now if you're traveling east~ you can see the sign. I have a couple of pictures, if that would be' of help. MR. CARVIN- I'm cur ious t all right, I 'm assuming the three and a 'half feet is from' the side here, but how far back from the road is this? MR. YOUNG-It is, well, it's quite a distance back from the road. I would say about, I don't know, 12 or 15 feet. MR. CARVIN-Okay. I think, is there a minimumiof 15 feet? MR. YOUNG-But that's f'l'om the property line, I belíéve. MR. CARVIN-Is that from the property line, or is that from the road? MR. YOUNG-It's 'three and a half f€!et behind the prQipert'y !in'€! at the moment, and it's been there for eight years. I only have two pictures, unfortunately. MR. CARVIN-Therè" s got to be one for the front setback, too, but I'm not positive. MR. THOMAS-Yes. I t says in the Ordinance, the setback for a freestanding sign will be ~ minimum distance of 15 feet from any property line. MR. MENTER-So it's got to be from both. MR. CARVIN-All right. Well, I guess I want to know that it's going to bel 5 fee t f I' om the fro n t pro pert y 1 i n e , i not her wo r d s, 0 f f your road here. How wide is this road onto Glenwood? I realize that you're probably three and a half off the side, what 1 call the side hete,' butwiill this be 15 feet back'·!from the front property line? MR. YOUNG-I guess I don't quite understand. The property line is, as you are probably aware, setback a considerable distance from the road, because there is probably I think the road is like 50 feet from the center I ine of the road is where the property lines are, - 5 - (Queens bury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) and it's three· and a half feet,b~yond that! point, because it's just been surveyed, because Mr. Ricciardelli has a stake sitting right there. So I know exactly where the corner is. MR. CARVIN-Okay. So what you're saying is, it's going to be three and a half feet from what I'm calling the front, and three and a half feet from the side, in this little diagram here. MR. YOUNG-No. From the property line it's probably 10, 15 feet, from Mr. Ri cc iarde Ui' s proper ty line, or from the proper ty on the other side, which I believe is Accardi. MR. MENTER-Okay. ,So ,you're saying ,the frQnt will be aboQt three and a half, but the side should be about, will be 15 feet? MR. YOUNG-Yes, because we have, I guess, a 15 foot strip on either side of our entrance road, and this would be up toward the road itself. If I could show you some of the pictures here, you could probably get a better idea, Find why it would not ,beeff,ective to go back 15 feet from the property line, because we know that the sign would be obscured. Signs that you can't see from the road are not much use for identification. ì ( MR. CARVIN-Well, lets take a look at the pictures, but we need to know what the numbers are when we I~,rant tl1£1 relief. That's the problem. MR. YOUNG-This is facing west. Here is the existing sign, which has the face on this side, and you can see it's not going to affect it. MR. CARVIN-So this is coming out and there's going to be'two new ones? MR. YOUNG-Yes. We"re going t.o replace this one, with one of the lower signs and hopefully a little better identification. I don't know if you can see it in this. The stake is in here somewhere. MR. CARVIN-All right~ Well, where, approximate1y,is the property line? See, this is what I'm asking. This is from the center, here, I would' asS'ume this ,is the 50 feet, or what have you? MR. THOMAS-A normal road is 25 feet from the center line. MR. YOUNG-Twenty- f;ive f ee,t f rom the center line. So you come in here. The property line is, from the road, is three and a half feet inside, the corner 0.£, this existing sign, in front of this tree, which is heading west, and this is east. I mean, we're not going to do aA¡ything other, ,than replace this sign with a lower sign, which is basically the same position as that. MR. CARVIN-Okay, butlg,u,esswe're still going to need some sort of relief from both the sides here. MR~ YOUNG~No, I don't think you do. MR. CARVIN-You're going to have 15 leet? MR. YOUNG-Yes. ,This is a, I believe, I'm pretty certain is 15 feet. This is not to scale. MRS. LAPHAM-Why not do aldoub:le faced? MR. CARVIN,That' s what Staff is sl:1ggesting. MRS. LAPHAM-I have to agree with that. MR. YOUNG-I'm not an engineer, but here is the thing. We have this - 6 - '- (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) buffer along here between the road and the prdperty on either side. MR. THOMAS-What's the scale on that? MR. GREEN-One to fifty. MR. MENTER-One inch, fifty foot. MR. YOUNG-The road is 24 feet wide, or 20 feet wide. I'm not sure. MR. THOMAS-There's the property line right there. MR. YOUNG-Yes. MR. THOMAS-Okay. That's,the sign right there. MR. CARVIN-That's the existing sign? MR. YOUNG-Right. MR. THOMAS-It's about nine feet back that way. MR. CARVIN-It's almost down to the property line. MR. GREEN-You said it's three and a half feet off of Ricciardelli's 1i ne . MR. THOMAS-Off of Ricciardelli's line. MR. YOUNG-Not off his line, from the road, from the line of'the road. MR. MENTER-He's saying it's three and a half ~p here. MR. YOUNG-Right. MR. THOMAS-Well, I measure that as about nine. MR. MENTER-You can't go by those squares, I don't think. MR. CARVIN-It's closer to Ricciardelli's. MR. THOMAS-Fifteen feet is to the curb of Ricciardelli's. MR. MENTER-We're just trying to figure out where we're at. MR. CARVIN-Well, if this is the property line, this One looks to be probably, that one's probably 20 feet. MR. MENTER-Yes, but I'm sure those squares were not put in there with any care. MR. THOMAS-That measures 15 to the closest point, but over here. MR. CARVIN-That's only four or five feet. MR. THOMAS-lif that, and it shows nine to the front. MR. YOUNG-We have, there's a strip on either side of the road. mean, we've got three trees growing there. MR. KARPELES-Well, it's going to go where the existing one is, right? MR. YOUNG-Well, that's what I'm trying to do, right. - 7 - (Queens bury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) MR. KARPELES-Theother one's going; to be in the same relative position. MR. YOUNG-It's going :to be directly across the'road. If you're coming west on Glenwöod, ,there is ,nQideotification. You're looking at the back of, the e,xisting sign.! From the angle here, the sign would. go in approximately where the shrub is; which would make it stU:1, visible from the road. If you séì it back here, .it just loses the purpose, which is to identify the entrance~ '! MR~ CARVIN-So what do. you ·th1,ok, six feet o·f relief from this, Chris, six feet from the front? MR. THOMAS,...Yes,about six feet. MR. CARVIN-The other one's got to be about 12 feet. MR. THOMAS-You can see the sign going east. What if you put a double sided sign over on this side? You'd be able to see it coming that way. MR. YOUNG-Well, you have trees behind it" here, if you're coming that way. I ¡don't know where you'd place it, here? Whichever way, it'll be somewhat obstructed. There are large trees ,here behind " the s ¡.gn on the east side. ,-ì ,MR., THOMAS...{)n the east sign, but if the sign went on the west side, ,you'd be able to see it. MR. YOUNG,Well, the reason is part of this is, one, for identif1:catl"oI:t, and at the same time, we're trying to somewhat beautify the-entrance, if that's a consideration, I mean, kind of balance it wi:th a sign on ei ther side. I mean, thi s is not a conmercial. establishment" and it~s not a conmer,cial sign, it's a, for lack of a better term, it's just identification to let people know where the entrance to the homes. ,¡'MR.. CARVIN-Any, other questions, anybody? Okay., Thank you. No other questions? Okay. I'm goiog to open up the publi.c hearing. " ! , PUBLIC' HEARING OPENED CAROLYN ACCARDI r' MRS. ACCARD1~My name is Carolyn Accardi~ My brothers and I own the property on the¡,west ,sideo;f Westwood, Ion the corner of Glenwood ,a.nd Westw~od. It's a s lng I e famil y f,es i deoce., pt' s been my famil y home for, 100 year's. We are now renting the property as a single family home. We intend to continue to do that. I '01 concerned about the need for a second sign. My understanding is you're allowed up to 50 square feet, and if they're allowed a second sign, they could have two signs up to 50 square feet. I don't think that the present Westwood Homeowner's Association have plans to do that, but who knows what's going to happen in three or four or ten years down the road. There is a street sign on the west side of Westwood. So if people want to kno_ where WestwQod is,it's easy to find. It's a private residence. It's a private road. They doo't want people driving ,in there unless they're going to visit ,somebody. So I really don't think ¡that they, in my estimation, I don't think they've met a need. ,MR. CARVIN.,.Okay,. Anyonß el.se wishing to be heard in opposi tion? BOB ACCARDI MR. ACCARDI-My name's Bob Accardi. I'm Carolyn's husband. I think that the footage that they're talking about is, there might be some question to it, becauSè to get off their road far enough so that - 8 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) their sign would be safe, it would be awful close to the resident's line, property line, of my wife's house there, and once it's there, anything we want to do, we've got to worry about a sign being close to our property line, their property line, and again, they're nowhere near the regulations. So I don't see any rea~on why they should be allowed to do that. Again, what they're saying now, for example, eight years ago, they were going to put a n'ice buffer of bushes and nice ahrubs and so on between the two properties in the back, and they never' did that. Of course these people probably weren't living there then. It's a perfect example of what Carolyn was saying, as towhy~ you don't want to let them do it now, because things can change. Thank you very much. MR. CARVIN-Anyone else wishing to be heard? Any correspondence? MR. THOMAS-No correspondence. MR. CARVIN-Any public comment at all? DOROTHY GEORGE MRS. GEORGE-I'm Dorothy George and I live in Westwood. One of the reasons people come into our area that are trying to find usban't see the road sign because of,the Accardi 'strees that are hlocking it. They have huge evergreens out there, that nobody can see the signs until they're past them practically, and as far as the buffer zone is concerned, we were just told about that recentlY, and that was not our responsibility. That was the Woodbury's respbhsibility when they developed this area, but the signs that they're considering putting up are very, very tasteful, verr 't~ractlve, waul d on 1 y add to the qual i ty of the ne i ghborhood. Rei ieve me, we've gone to great ex~remes to have them designed'nicely:, and we want to have them lit f~om underneath so that they will be very attractive to the neighborhood, really add to it. Thank you. MR. ACCARDI-Bob Accardi again. She just spoke of the large trees in the Accardi lot blocking the signs, but what they're talking about is p~tting a sign there so that they can see it from the other way. You've got it reversed, because the trees on our property, right now, don't block their sign because it's coming from the other way. They just said that th~ir sigh is'(lost *ord) plus it certainly doesn't block the street sign. They were there 100 years before Westwood was there. When they came, they were there. There' s one more thing. The 1 ighting of the signs is another reason why we wouldn't want them. Now they~re closer to our house. We can look out our livingroom window, 25 feet away, and see ni ce '1 its igns on our f'ront proper ty I don't thi nk people want that in a single residence. I don't think you would either. MR. CARVIN-Any other public comment? the public hearing is closed. Seeing none, hearing none, PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED MR. CARVIN-Any questions of the applicant? MR. GREEN-I have a question for Staff. If we were not ~o approve a second sign, if they wanted to replace the existing sign with a different one, they'd still need a variance for the setbacks. MR. HILTON-The sign that exists out there today, in its present location, I think because of the fact that it's up, the setbacks aren't an issue. MR. GREEN-If they were to replace that with a different s'ign? MR. HILTON-They would,1 think, either have to meet the setbacks or - 9 - ( , ~ "'-- ~. (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) receive a variance for a different sign. MR. CAR V I N -Okay. variance, then? You don't know if that sign was granted by MR. HJLTON,I ,don't ,have any files OF any, you know, past infortl1ation that says that it was granted by' variance. MR. CJ\RVIN~Okay. MR. MENTER-I'm not sure. I think that might be grandfathered, that sign replacement at the same location. MR. HILTON-Well, if you substantially, change the structure of the sign itself, I think. MR. GREEN-,t,f they wer e to go f rom a stand up' to someth i ng 1 i ke this. MR., HILTON-If you'te just, you know, keeping th~ same sign, height and wid.th, I think the message on;the, face of it can change, but if you.':re changing,the phy,sical sign ,itself, I think they'd either have to receive a variance or meet the setbacks. . ,I MR. CARVIN-Okay. Any other questions? Any corrments? How about you, Chris? MR. THOMAS-Yes. i1 was, j,ust looking througn the Sign Ordinance ,here, and· I've come across 140-7, it ,says "Nonconforming signs", and. it 'says "a nonc'Onforll1ing s'ign is a sign which is in conflict with provisions of this Chapter. Such 'sign or signs in existence at the effecti ve date of this Chapter shall be brought into confornlity in all respects with the provisions of this Chapter or shall be removed within 10 years of said effective' date." The existing sign is a nonconforming sign because it doesn't meet the setbacks. So, within 10 years of the effectiveness of this Sign Ordinance, that has to be removed. MR. MENTER-Well, it may have a variance. MR. THOMAS-It may have, but we don't know. MR. MENTER-Right. MR~ GREEN7When 1s the Ordinance? MR. THOMAS-The date on the'bot,tom is: 3/25/94. The Sign Ordinance is dated 1994. MR. CARVI,N-Yes, but I think that,'s; just· a revision date. MR. MENTER-Yes, that's a revision. MR.' THOMAS-nAdopted by the Town Board of the Town of QueenSbury 7/27/1976 at Ordinance Number 46. MR. MENTER-So '86 would have been that 10 year. MR. THOMAS-Yes, but we don't know how long that's been there. MR. GREEN-It's probably, not supposed to be there anyway. MR. MENTER-Well, I don't know. I mean, there may be a variance. MR. THOMAS-So,you know,: if you talk about changing the sign, I mean,. that's. MR.OARVIN-Well, how long ago did Westwood go in? I don't know. - 10 - -- .- (Queens bury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) MRS. GEORGE-The first resident's been there about nine years. I've probably been there 10 or 11. MR. CARVIN-Probably '86, '87 time Something like that wouldn't be put mean, they would be allowed a sign, conformance, right? So they'd have frame, somewhere in there. in under site plan, right? I but they'd have to make it in to come for a varian~e. MR. HILTON-Either a variance or just submit a sign permit application that complied with our Ordinance. MR. CARVIN-At the time. MR. MENTER-But nine or ten years ago, I don't believe it did. MR . CAR V I N -No, I d on 't t h ink so e i the r . Well, n ow t h at you' ve managed to muddy the situation, do you have any comments? What is your feeling on this? MR. THOMAS-Well, to me, there's a lot of neighborhood opposition on this, and I think the neighbors are right ih their concern of this, especially the lighted signs. : It was not· sta:ted on the app1ication that it would be a lighted sign. That makes it even more, makes it even worse for the neighbors. As far as I'm concerned, if they want to put up a 50 square foot sign 15 feet from either property line, that's fine with me, but that's going to end up right in the middle of their road. There is a sign there now that says Westwood Drive, or Westwood Road. I can't remember which it says, that you can see going from east to west. Granted, the tree is in the way, but by the time you can see· i ti, 'I think there's enough time to stop and make that turn, and when you're coming from west to east, the sign is already there. MR. CARVIN-'The current sign, is that a lit sign? MR.' YOUNG-Yes. MR. CARVIN-It is a lit sign. MR. THOMAS-That's where 1 stand. MR. CARVIN-Bob? MR. KARPELES-Well, I originally kind of agreed that it was a good looking a sign and would be an asset, but with the neighbors objecting to it, I can see their objection to it, but I just wonder what the alternative is. The Staff has pointed out an alternative, but where would they mount that sign? MR. HI L TON- I thi nk if they meet the setbacks, they can, ,you know, 15 feet from each property line, then they have the ability to put up a sign that's 50 square feet. MR. KARPELES-Is there any way that they can meet the setbacks? MR. CARVIN-It appears that on the west side, according to that map, it looked like what they had indicated for a sign did meet, o~ was real close to. MR. THOMAS-Yes. It looked like about a 20 foot strip on that west side of that road going in there, from the property line to the curb line. MR. CARVIN-Looking at the pictures, it would appear that if they were to put one in that area, a double sided sign, that I think the visibility is not a real problem. If you take a look, or looked at those pictures, there was amailbox, or is a mailbox, and the angle of those would indicate that I think that that's an open area, and - 11 - ) (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) my personal view is that a sign might fit the side setbacks there, of a double sided nature, a single sign might accomplish what they're looking to do. } ¡ ;IT MR.KARBELES-Now, are they ~llo~ed to have alight¡ed sign there? I guess mY. feeling is that maybe more ,work ought to be, done to see if something could be put in there that would comply wi th the Ordi nanceand liSt i 11 satisfy you people. '" MR. CARVIN-How about you, Dave? MR. MENTER-I don't have, you know, the setbacks I think personally would be willing to work.i~h the &etbacks, because I'd like to see good visibility, but I have a problem with the second sign., I ,think one sign is sufficient, if it~s done, 'right, one,! two sided sign, and if we need totalkrnaybe about a little setback relief in order to make that Ivery effective" then I'd, .be more comfortable doing that, certainly, than giving the second sign, also, but I don't know what, the<,~etback numbers a;re. I'm uncomfortable because I don't know where things really start and stop. " J MR. HI LTON-;-If the Board féels t,h~y, need more information, u I t i ma tel y the de cis i on's up to you, but I w 0 u I d w 0 r k with t he applicant. I'd contact them tomorrow and try to get a plan to you and to us that indicated the exact setbacks currently and what's proposed, if you think that'll help you make your decision. MR . CAR V I N - I t h ink the r e ma y be a f e a sib 1 e a I t ern at i v e , and unfortunately the map that we've got here is not to scale. MR. H:I L TON-Right. MR. CARVIN-And I'd have to agree with Dave, who's agreeing with me to agTee with hi~that we ~on't know, where the numbers are, and we don't know exactly, what we're:;granting relief from or {,rom where, as much. ~s I hate the thougM o,f,:tabling this, because of our back 1 0.8,. 'MR.HILTON-,Well, this is something I ,think that if you feel that you want' to table it, once we get th:e accurate measurements. MR., CARVIN-Actually, the otheTissue is; and if 'I'm hearing the CDnsensus -so far ,1;s that nobody really seems; to be hot for the second sign anyway,. So, I'm rao't, sure that the measurement issue is goingt,o,·be real relevant, if the ß,oard doesn't feel that they want to ha·ve two signs out there. Now again, I don't know what your fe:Jeling is, Mr., Creen. MR. CREEN-No. You hit it right on the head. I don't see any need fora second!! $ i go ¡ and I'm ,afraid; of ' opening a can of WOrms. There's a lot ·of the&e developments, around~ and they're coming more and more all the time, and you get One that's got two signs, then the next guy's going to want two sign,and all. the way down the road. So I think one double sided sign's going to fit the bill, and I don't have a problem with the setba,cks, if we can figure out where to put it, but I don't want to see a second sign. MRS. LAPHAM-I don't need to re-invent the wheel, here. Everybody has'said I e,xactl y what my tböughts were,. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Well, then, I'm going to leave it to you td your discretion. Do you want to move this? Do you want to table this? I'm just opening itriup for general'comment. I MRS. LAPHAM-I would like to see the Westwood Association go back to '·,'ttle drawing t board and ·maybe working with Staff come up. wi th .!' );Jl>dfnØ'tlh ¡ing't ha t': "o\l1'C1 be mot e·:fë'as i b 1è. asfð.r. a:.s the noe i gh bors are - 12 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) concerned, as far as our Board is concerned. MR. CARVIN-Okay, but they're asking for a second sign, I guess. mean, can we move this? I mean, should we turn the second sign down? Is that what I'm hearing? Ii they want to put knother sign out there, really to loòk at thecomplianèe issue. MR. MENTER-Yes. I think at the very least they should go away with that knowledge, and if we take that step, it's not going to. MR. THOMAS-Yes. MR. CARVIN-Then I would ask for a motion. MR. MENTER-Well, if we do ,a motion, we're doing a motion to turn down the request for a second sign, but we're going to table it for request for setbacks, or jus~ turn it? MR. CARVIN71 think they go hand in hand. MR. MENTER-Should we just table it? The public hearing's been opened and closed, instead of, then you'd have to re-apply and re- open the whole thing, right? They'd have to c'ome ba¿k and' re- apply. MR. THOMAS-Yes. MR. CARVIN-If we turned down the second sign. MR. THOMAS-Yes. If we table it, they can amend it. MR. MENTER-If we table it, as long as they have ~he understgriding of what our concerns are, and what we're saying. , MR. YOUNG-Can I just say something? Can we just withdraw the whole appli ca t ion, for get the whol e th i ng, to saver your time and our time? I mean, if I understand ~his èorrectl1i and I've looked at this, there is nothing in the Sign Ordinance to cover this type of sign. This 50 square foot sign for an apartment house, which I assume is something you would stick up and offer apartments, and we really) when we started this, we didn't antidipate getting involved in a whole big thing. We're trying to put some identification up, and also kind of beautify the entrance. We don't have to have lit signs, but sticking one 50 foot sign up, it seem to me, would be absolutely obscene, and we wouldn't want that in front of our entranoe, which is, according to what we're saying would be, so we'll just tell everybody, when you see the Ricciardelli's sign, you'll take a left if you're heading east, because he's putting a sign up in front of his house. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Well, I guess, to make it simple then, you re going to withdraw this application, but I would want yoU to understand that there may be, from looking at your map, you may be able to still put a two faced, a double sided sign. MRS. GEORGE-It's impTact i cal . MR. CARVIN-It's impractical. MR. YOUNG-Well, at this point, I think we'll just withdraw it, with your permission, and save your time and thank you for your time and effor t . MR. CARVIN-Okay. Then let the record be applicant has requested to withdraw. Okay. so noted, Thank you. that the AREA VARIANCE NO. 11-1996' TYPE II UR-IO LARRY W. CLUTE OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE WESTERN AVENUE, THEN RIGHT ON TO NATHAN ACROSS FROM - 13 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) HOLDEN APPLICANT PROPOSED TO DECREASE ÇQNFORMITY OF A LOT AND GIVE MORE AREA TO TWO NON-CONFORMING LOTS. THE RESULT WILL BE THREE NON-CONFORMING LOTS. THIS ACTION REQUIRES RELIEF FROM THE LOT AREA REQUIREMENTS OF SECTION 179-17C. WARREN COUNTY PLANNING: 3/13/96 TAX MAP NO. J 17-3-18, 19, 20 LOT SIZES: 0.15, 0.13, 0.23 ACRES SECTION 179d 7C LARRY CLUTE, PRESENT STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff, Area Variance No. 11-1996, Larry W. Clute, Meeting Dat.e: March 27, 1996 '''PROPOSED PROJECT AND'iCONFORMANCE WITH THE ORDINANCE: The applicant is proposing to decrease conformity :of a lot andgi v:e more area to two nonconfoirmi ng lots. The 'results will be! three nonc'óhforming lots. Currently,' there are three existing lots, one conJorming and two nonconforming. This action requires reI iei from the lot· area requirements of Section 179-17C. CRITERIA FOR CONSIDERING AN AREA VARIANCE, ACCORDlNC TO CHAPTER 267, TOWN LAW. 1. BENEFIT TO THE APPLICANT: This action will allow the applicant the ability tobuil:d tIYree homes on three lots of similar lot area. 2. FEASIBiLE ALTERNATIVES: There do not seem to be anyalternativeswhìch couJd provide a lesser amount of relief from the Ordinance. 3. IS THIS RELIEF SUBSTANTIAL RELATIVE TO THE ORDINANCE?: The app:licant is proposing to create three lots of approximately 7345 sq. ft. The one existing conforming lot contains 10,170 sq. ft. TheUR-}¡Q zonJngdlÎistrict requires 10,000 sq. ft. of area per lot. 4. EFFECTS ON THE NEIGHBORHOOD OR COMMUNITY?: This vairiance would allow the applican:tto build three new homes at this site. The site is ;currently vacant except for an old trailer on the lot to the north. New homes in this area would have the pos.itive impact of ,helping to establish thi·s area as a residential neighborhood. 5. IS THIS DJ,FFICULTY SELF-CREATED?: Only one of the existing lots conforms to the area requirements of . .the UR-tO district. The other twoi,lòts ,have areas of approximately 5600 and 6000 square feet. PARCEL HISTORY: These three parcels are currently undeveloped. The northelrnmost' piece o;f land contains a mobile home on site. STAFF COMMENTS AND CONCERNS: The applicant has indicated to staff that if the variance l&app~bVed, any development of homes would meet the existing setbacks that are r equ i red. I f the var i ance i s granted, deve.LoþrneTltöf, these three lots would be of similar size and scale. The densities and lot sizes that'are proposed already exist in this area of Queensbury. SEQR: Type II, no further action required." MR. THOMAS..,."A.ta meeting o:f the Warren County Planning Board, held on the 13th day ·of March" 1996, the above ,appli,cation for an Area Variance to decrease conf.ormity. of lot 20' and increase conformity of lots 1.8 &19. was reviewed and the following action was taken. Reconnnendation :to: No County Irtlpact" Signed by C. Powel South, Chairpef'son. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Does everybody on the Board understand what the applicant is requesting? Are there any questions of the applicant? MR. MENTER-Yes. Right now, we're talking about lots 18, 19, and 20. Why does it appear to be four lots there? MR. CARVIN-My question exactly. There appears to be a dotted line of some sor t. MR. MENTER-Right thröugh the middle of 20. MR. HILTON-That dotted line, right, it's still, there's lot 18, the solid lines are the lot lines. There's 18, 19, and 20. The dotted line, 1'm not sure exactly what it means, but on both sides of that, it's still lot 20.: '- 14 - -" (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) MR. MENTER-It may'hàve, at önè time, bé~h subdivided. \:; MR. HILTON-It may 'havebéen split, right. " ¡ " ii ;MR. CARV IN- I not ice there's a number of those dot ted 1i ríès,; and I didn't know, because if you take a look at 37 and 30 ~nd sri forth, they look like they're double lots, maybe. MR. HILTON-If you look at the numbering, it goes from 30 to 32. There probably was a 31 there at one time and it was incorporated into 30. MR. THOMAS-Yes, because 28 and 29 are 45 foot lots. " , J , ' MR. CLUTE-At one point, that neighbor'hood was all 45 foot lots. MR. THOMAS-Yes, see 30 is a 90 foot, width, so probably, they -combined one lot or two lots to make it, one on that one, and it looks like they did the same thing for 20. Took two 45 footers and madè It a 90. ! ~ MR. CARVIN-That's the only reason I could figure the dotted line. I mean, 25 looks 1 ike a 50 and a 90 and a 90:, maybe. Okay. So we're all in agreement that it is three lots and not four? MR. CLUTE- I tis three lots, not four, yes. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Any other quest-ions? f \: MR. MENTER-On the east' side there, where it says, "to be constructed, and it~s an entrance drive. MR. CLUTE-Yes. By the way, my name i$ Larry Clute. Yes, 1 spoke with Paul Naylor, and Queensbury does have (lòst words). MR. CARVIN-Any other questions? I'll open up the public hearing. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED NO COMMENT PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED MR. CARVIN-Okay. I'm going, to start with you, Bonnie. A'- ., MRS. LAPHAM-I don't have a problem with this, because I think it would enable Larry to build three similar houses, which would add to ne ighborhood conformi ty. It will cer tai n 1 y improve the ,neighborhood to see three nice looking,homes there, rather than the trailer and weeds and trash 'everything that's there now. I've seen other houses that he's built. They usually improve the neighborhood, and the house that he does build is very much needed itself. They're usually very lovely. MR. CARVIN-These ho~ses, would they be stick built, or are they going to be modular? MR. CLUTE-Stick built. MR. CARVIN-Stick built. MR. CARVIN-Bill? MR. GREEN-You've already answered both 'of my questions, the road and the dotted line. I don't have any other questions or problems. MR. CARVIN-Dave? MR. MENTER-Yes. I don't have any problems. I mean, it's certainly - 15 - (Queens bury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) an improvement over what's there ,fiow,. Œh'e alte'rnatives, 1 mean, what are the alternatives, make two lots? MR. CARVIN-They wou!dbethe two biggest lots in there, that's for sure. MR . MENTER-Yes. I'm not real comfortab 1 e about the size of. it, but then the neighborhood is not, I have ver~,minor reservations about it, ,I guess.',rd really have 1\0 problems with it. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Bob? MR. KARPBLES,...Well, I agree ,with ,Dave. 1 kind oft'hought that maybe he could make two lots aut of Lt, hut' it ,doesn't seem that it would be in· keeping with the rest of the lots in that area. 1 just wonder how come the zoning is such that, there are so many smaller lots 1(Ì} there? MR. CARVIN-I have a feeling this was probably developed about twelve million years ago, and that's baok when. .' MR. KARPELES-So it would seem to be cons:istent, and I guess I don't have ~ny problem with it. MR. CARVIN-Chris? MR. THOMAS-No, I ag,ree wi tl1 the other Board members. I was kicking around the idea of why nQt make i ttwo J lot s instead of three. Could you tell me what the lot frontages would be, approximately? ~ ¡ MR. CLUTE-Yes. I t would conform wi th, actually, the rest of the ne i ghborhood, the hoúses would be' right" in line with them, approximately 25 foot road frontage or setback, front setback~ MR. THOMAS-No, I mean the road frontage? MR. CLUTE-The road, 60 foot. MR. 'THOMAS-SiKty! ,foot fOil! eaéh ¡l;at? . 1 ~ ).1-: }" ¡ I: ~ J 'j MR. €LUTE".SLxty foot eaoh ¡tot, ,a.nd Wie' re discuss i ng' the :thrèè' lots Jvers'u's two.' I ø:ts~: In act ua Ii ty ,'j I lêoú,}t! leave it; '!thr ee 10:t;s and a 2.B and still pat a sti:ckbuilt 'home ,in there'a.ntl'mMc:e it conform tCi>,Jthe ¡;,ètbackrs~(J"fhe orìi,y. reas,oti {"'m"t'rying tó'-tJe:t '60 is it 'just givesyöu a. li'ttle bit more space. It's better\N'o'haLve a 60 foot lot than a 45, but if necessary, I could put a stick built home on a 45 foot lot, and stilL meet the pte--existing 'setbacks. It just offers a prospecti ve buyer, say a 24 foot house, if he wants a garage, on a 45 foot lot, you can't do that. On a 160 'foot 'lot, I can. So it just gives a little bit more flexibility is all, but I could still cOrif.'Orm·1;.o setbacks ;with the 45 foot lot rather than 60 foot 1 ot8 ~ , : 1'''''} <. < '. :; ~ J v .1 .i MR. MENTER-But you'd still have to come for the lE>tsti:z:e. MR. CLUTE-No. They're .already in place.' The lots exist. They're alreadyideeded. <f' MR. HILT0N"'iThe 10ts'laJrè'iaiready tber'e~;, Th~y' ~e legal noncon:f<>rming lots. If they met thesetbaoks, no variances would be' requi~ed. . ; <' MR. THOMAS-It's a'gQod idea.; It would be bigger lots than what's th'er'e now , with 'the threéf+ , , . MR:.¡CARVIN-Yes. ,;!,1 real,ly don'tt;have a prob,lem with this. Okay. I'd ask for a motion. ;;11/, MOTION TO APPROVE AREA VARIANCE, NO. 11-:1996 ,- 16 - LARRY W. CLUTE, (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) Introduced by David Menter who moved for its adoption, seconded by Fred Carvin: The applicant proposes to decrease conformity of a lot and give additional area to two adjacent nonconforming lots. The result would be three nonconforming lots. The existing lots would require relief from lot area requirements of Section 179-17C. The applicant is proposing to creaJte lots of approximately 7345 square feet. Each lot would require Irel ief of approximately 2655 feet. The benefit to the applicant would be creating three more uniform lots. As current nonconforming lots, they could be built on in their current configuration while meeting setbacks. The proposed change would make the. two lots more acceptable for bui lding'.There do not appear to be any feasible alternatives, or! at least this appears to be the best alternative, and I would consider it a better alternatdve than utilizing the. ~xisting lot sizes. It does not appear to be substantial relative to the Ordinance, particularly due to the fact that these lots could be built on as they exist. In granting this variance, although we would be creating a nonconforming lot from a conforming lot, the increase in lot size of the two adjacent lots, the benefit would outweigh the loss of conformance of that one lot, crea t i ng three des i rabl e building lots where now there is just one. There would ·appear to be no effects on the neighborhood or conmuni ty. In fact, the resulting lot sizes will be somewhat greater than most of the neighborhood's existing lots. The hardship does not appear to be self-created, as the lot~ in the area were apparently cieated prior to the most recent zoning, requiring the cu'rrent lot size. Duly adopted this 27th day of March, 1996, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Green, Mr. Menter, Mr . Karpe 1 es, Mr. Thomas, Mrs. Lapham, Mr. Carvin NOES: NONE ABSENT: Mr. Ford AREA VARIANCE NO. 16-1996 TYPE II HC-IA MICHAEL PARK, MANAGER FOR PIZZA HUT OWNER: HERBERT SHEINBERG ROUTE 9, NEXT TO LONG JOHN SILVER'S APPLICANT PROPOSES TO CONSTRUCT A DECK TN'FRONT OF A PIZZA HUT ¡RESTAURANT "HIGH REQUIRES RELIEF FROM THE FRONT YARD SETBACKS REQUlREDIN SECTION !179-23C AND THE SETBACKS OF SECTION 179-28C (TRAVEL CORRIDOR OVERLAY ZONE). WARREN COUNTY PLANNING 3/13/96 TAX MAP NO. 71-1'-9 LOT SIZE: 1.26 ACRES SECTION 179-28C MICHAEL PARK, PRESENT; TERRY REEF, PRESENT STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff, Area Variance No. 16-1996, Michael Park, Pizza Hut, Meeting Date: March 27, 1996 "PROJECT LOCATION: Route 9 next to Long John Silvers PROPOSED PROJECT AND CONFORMANCE WITH THE ORDINANCE,: The applicant proposes to construct a deck in front of a Pizza Hut Restaurant which will be located 8 feet from the front property line~ This action requires'relief from thè setbacks required in Section 179-23C and the setbacks of Section 179-28C (Travel Corridor Overlay Zone). CRITERIA FOR CONSIDERING AN AREA VARIANCE, ACCORDING TO CHAPTER 267, TOWN LAW. 1. BENEFIT TO· THE APPLICANT: This would allow the applicant to build an outdoor seating area for customers. 2. FEASIBLE ALTERNATIVES: There do not seem to be any other alternatives which could provide less relief. 3. IS THIS RELIEF SUBSTANTIAL RELATIVE TO THE ORDINANCE?: The street setback for Route 9 is 75 feet, the applicant proposes to locate this str'u~ture 8 feèt from their front property line. 4. EFFE.CTS ON THE. NEIGHBORHOOD OR COMMUNITY?: This 40 foot by 30 foot deck would be located 8 feet from the Route 9 property line on a lot with two existing restaurants. The si te currently does' not - 17 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) have enough parking for the buildings on site. This addition would only add to the parking problem that exists on site. 5. IS THIS DIFFICULTY SELF-CREATED? The current setback f.rom Route: 9 at this location is 56.5 feet. This site does not have the parking to a,oconmodate this expansion. PARCEL HISTORY: This parcel contains 2 restaurants and has been owned 'by Herbert Sheinberg since 1977. STAFF COMMENTS AND CONCERNS: Staff has concerns about allowing this expansion with the existing parking conflict on site. Staff is also concerned wi,th allowing expans'ion to be,located Sio close to a heavily used road such as Route 9. Although this expansion would be, within the, densi-vy ,requirements of the HC-IA district, staff feels this expansion would r-esult in over development of this site. SEQR: Type II, no further action required." J MR. THOMAS..,."At a meeting of the Warren County Planning, Board, held on the 13th day of March 1996, the above application for an Area Variance for the construction of a ground level, unattached wood deck with railings. was reviewed and the following action was taken. Recommenda t i on to: Oi sapprove Comments: The s e.tback from the main road is not adequate and it would have significant County impact with the deck." Signed by C.Powel South, Chairperson. MR. CARVIN-Okay . Before we begin; be,cause ,Warren County has disapproved this, in order for us to grant a variance, you would need what is called a super majority,which is five positive votes, as opposed to a normal four positive votes to approve. Okay. I have a question of Staff. When you are addressing the density, is that the permeability? \ MR.; H'lLTON-The dens i ty, we're addr ess i ng the overall amount of gross bui'lding area on site. You know how we had the 12,000 square feet that's allowed per acre, and then you get into that formula that we've dealt with in the past. MR. CARVIN-Okay. MR. HILTON'""That's what I mean, iand they're okay, as, far as that's concerned, and in fact, their permeability is above what's required. MR. CARVIN-Okay. If they were to put this deck on, it would have no effect, or they still would be in compliance? MR. HILTON-They'd still be in compliance, within compliance, yes. MR. KARPELES-Is a deck oonsidered to affect permeability? MR. HILTON-It reduces,it. However, ,in this case it's not going to reduce' it below what's required in the zoning district. MR. CARVdN-That makes it, what, 30 percent? 'MR. HILTON-Thirty percent. MR. KARPELES-I've got a question, too. existing seating is now, right, where everything in there and picnic ~ables~ This is going where the you've go t grave 1 and MR. PARK-Rílight, yes, that's correct. MR. KARPELES-So, my question to Staff i~, how does this reduce the parking any more? MR. HILTON-Parking, this lot has,' t,wo restaurants ,and becausei t' s one lot, we have to take the square footages of both restaurants in computing the parking. If you add a seating area, the parking, whichLs determined ,based on, partially based on seating, you'd need more parking required for the site, based on the additional - 18 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) seating. MR. KARPELES-The seating's already theret!Tsn't it? MR. CARVIN-Yes. I was going to say, 'is that interior seating, or does that take irito consider~tion the two dozen picnic tables they have? MR. HILTON-You mean existing problem or proposed? MR. CARVIN-Well, I mean, I don't know how many picnic tables. would guess there's probably half a dozen. MR. HILTON-Well, that's based on everything. That's based on, right now, with the gross leasable area that's oh the site. MR. CARVIN-But that's ,interior. MR. WILTON-Interior, yes. MR. CARVIN-Okay, but what I'm saying is that they could seat 100 people inside, but they have approximately another dozen picnic tables outside which I believe is not being considered part of the parking at this point, is it? I mean, how can you tell. how" many picnic ~ables? They could haul those picnic tables away tomorrow. MR. HILTON-Existing picnic tables? MR. CARVIN-Yes. They're sitting there now, both there and in front of the Long John Silver. There was probably. another three or; four there. MR. HILTON-Okay. Well, I guess my point is that, right now, just with the gross leasable area of the sites, based on that, there i sn 't enough park i ng for the site. I thi nk you al so take into consideration the outside seating when computing what paTking is required. MS. CIPPERLY-That would be similar tó the Docksider, which added a deck. MR. CARVIN-Okay, but there's no deck there now, but they have picnic tables. They're sitting on the ~roUnd. MR. REEF-I don't know if this would help, if I could jump in. My name is Terry Reef. I'm the Vice President and General Manager of the franchise, here. We have eight stores, and currentlY we·have okay from Ray Supply, in fact, to park cars on that side, and we also have a stairway, pathway that leads to Ray Supply, which is right next door, and we have added them to our insurance pøficy. He required that we do that in order for us to allow Pizza Hut customers or employees to park there. So I don't know ffthisiwill address the question. We do have additional parking that he allows us to use. MR. KARPELES-How would the customers ever know that? MR. REEF-Well, at this, we've never pr,or'noted this at this porot. MR. KARPELES-But you would put signs? MR. PARK-Well, what we were going to do was, exactly. Currently, the employees park up there,now, but we were going to advertise to the locals that, during tou,rist season" and that's one of the issues we have is when the Great Escape closes we ge~, you know, all our business comes at once, and so whatwe·'re going to do is advertise to the locals to let them know that they, you know, are - 19 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) able to park up there, and have easy access to the sit~~ and not have to deal with having to drive around looking for a parking spot. MR. MENTER-George, excuse me. What are" the figures, as far as allowable à-nd numbè>r of spots? How many do they need based on that square footage, and seating in restaurants, both t-nose restaurants? MR. HILTON-The Itotal parking sþaces that they have right now, they have 54. MS.CIPPERLY-One for each hundred square feet of gross leasable. MR. HILTON-Right, and based on our figures with the building square footages alone, ,!they're required to have 71 parking spaces. I didn't take into' consideration the picnic table\S OT anything, but with that seating, the lack of parking would only be that much gr eat:eT:. MR. MENTER-I believe the restaurant has, what, one per hundred, you said? MS. CIPPERLY-It says one per each hundred square feet of gross leasable floor space, or one for each four seats, whichever is greah'!r. The seatsr:would take care! of, the picnic table question. So it would be even worse if you.; I! MR. MENTER-That's based cOn 100. Your f i.gur e of 71 is based on one per 100. MR. HIL TON-Ohe space needed per every 100 squCi're feet. MR. MENTER-Not the four seats? MR. HILTON~Right. MR. MENTER-So that would be where that would tie in. If there's a dozen :addi tiOnal tables, right? Pigured conservatively, four people per table, that might increase the-,number of parking spaces required. MR. CARVIN-Well, I put that question under Peasible Alternatives. L think they've already found the feasible alternative. MR. MENTER-Well, no, I agree. I don't know if I agree, but that doesn't dispute what I'm saying. MR. CARVIN-Yes. I think i.t open:s up an interes t i ng concept, agai n, because it's an approved use. I mean,! but it's kind of an unusual situation in that we have, what, two restaurants on a single lot. Is that correct? MR. HILTON-Thàt's the existi:mg condi-tion. Yes. MR. CARVIN-All right, but you say the area is in compliance, but they could probably ,put a lot more picnic tables around there, and howcloes ,that affect the den~j ty?: I mean, we have no way of 'moni to_rin-gthat, as farias I know. I' ve:'never been confronted with , 'it. MR. MENTER-Well, it dÐesn't effrect the, deinsity, but it certainly maye f'fect the requ ired, parki ng . MR. CARVIN-Well, yes, the parking, but how do you monitor something like that? Thereisinothing that.l know of that prevents anybody, any business owner, from putting picnic tables' ou'Ì. MR. MENTER-I guess it's just a question of how intensely you want - 20 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) to police. MS. CIPPERLY-Now this is a structure. MR. CARVIN-Well, they want to put a structure there, but what I'm saying is that they've already got gravel down, and they already have approximately eight to ten picnic, tables there, and I think all they want to do is get them up off the ground and make it a nice little platform, which makes it a permanent struc.ture, I suppose. MR. MENTER-I think it's probably that, coupled with increasing your capacity out there, too, during those peak periods. MR. REEF-We'r~ actually looking to just increase the professionalism. A lot of people don't want to go sit and eat at picnic tables and paper plates. They'd rather sit at nie~ lawn furniture, in a more professional, you know, a better atmosphere, I guess, as opposed to the way it is now. MR. MENTER-But you don't really need 1200 feet to do however many picnic tables you have out there. So it is an increase, in that sense. MR. PARK'-Yes, but they wrap around. I don't know if you've ever been by there on any night during the summer time. The people are, it's unbelievable to me that the people would wait outside the door in a line, I mean, j\1st to the end of the building, and we're trying to alleviate that, just basically trying to generate some more area for them to be able to sit down. They're already in there, and sometimes '1, question where they' find places to park to get in there, that they're already in there. They'll wait. We'll have 25, 35 people waiting for a place to sit down, and wS're just trying to alleviate some of that waiting, and increase the turnover and eliminate some of the congestion that occurs now with them just coming here. MR. CARVIN-Let me aisk you this. How long have the picnic tables been a part of the overall operation? MR. REEF-About 10 years now. MR. CARVIN"'"'So they've always been some sort of outside eating facility. MR. PARK-Right. Yes. MR. CARVIN-And' how many more tables or pe:op'le would youianticipate being o~ this deck, as opposed to what you have currehtly? MR. PARK-I'd say about 20 more people. MR. CARV IN-So you'd be almost doubl ing it. You've got 10 p,tcnlC tables now. MR. REEF-No. I'm looking, I guess, in terms of numbers, because, like we were looking at putting white', plastic resin furniture, versus ~icnic tables there, on the deck itself. So what I didn't compare is the number of picnic, obviously these tables are sma,ller than picnic tables. So I was looking at, right now we can serve like about 60 out there. We were looking to serve possibly 80, with the deck. So, yes, it would be an increase of about 20, able to serve about 20 more customers, at any given time. MR. CARVIN-All right. Now, are you related in any way wi th the Long John Silver? Because they've got'picnic tables out in front of their building. ,..- 21 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) MR. REEF-Well, they don't have the need. In other words~ if you're at capacity in the restaurant, then there's no need 'to. MR. CARVIN-My question is, are you connected in any way other than occupying? MR. PARK-No. Ii MR. MENTER-Ate you, both leas i ng f rom the same owner? what's going on? 1st ha t MR. REEF-¥és. That's; I guesS,our only tie. I ! MR. CARVIN.¡..Okay', because I see that they have put what appears to be boulders 'and obstacles in thefœont there, and it, looks, again, like it's kind of a gravel situation, and I t¡hLnk they've only, got maybe three or four picnic tables. It didn't appear to be as many. t ¡ MR. PARK-They don't have the table service out there, so they don't seem to be as in demand. MR. CARVIN-But you do have table service? MR. PARK-Yes. MR. CARVIN-Okay. So you have waiters and,waitresses? MR. PARK-Exactly. We have full service out there, and that's what we're ,trying to do is ,I guessjúst change the appearan,ce, picnic tables":and: paper plates to dining, moré of a positive expe'rience. MR. CARVIN-Let me kind of ask a loaded, leading question. Is it the location or is it the Pizza tlut, that draws the people? MR. PARK-I think it's a little of both. MR. CARVIN-A little bit of both? MR. PARK-Yes. The location's definitely advantage, being down from The Creat Escape, because people tend to funnel either off Exit 20 or down Route 9 afterwards, after it's let out, and we do a lot of advertising, too. So people tend to go to Pizza Hut and those types of places.. MR. CARVU'¡-See,because my, concern is, you know, part of the concern we have to look at is any impact on the safety and welfare of the ,conmunÌity, and if! we have 'a highly intensive use in a very small area on a major thoroughfare, I mean, I'm not quite sure we're addressing the safety issue, and I think that's what Warren County was looking at is that, you know, it's great; to have a successful business, but at some point, I think it has to reach a point of diminishing returns ,and that s what l"m weighing in illY. :mind, is. how much of an expansion, o..-er and above, you know, is this going to really constitute? MR. PÄRK~Aga.in, ¡t"s ,hard to 'qúantify, to clarify it, but the people' seem to come there and wai t ' anyway. It' turns out to be a matter of them standin,g in ,the lot, or out on: the sidewalk wi th their cars somewhere there anyway,' waiting fora s,pot, or having a spot for them to s.it down quicker.' So, I'm not so sure that it's going to generate more traffic in there, as it's going to allow us to serve more people all at one time, versus having to spread it out. I'm not go ingto kid you, ei thel" . Pèop Ie dowal k away if the line is too long. So it has some impact on us. I mean, that in itself can create some congestion because you have people coming in, going out. They come in, see the line there. They turn around and try to back out, and go out. We've tried to allevia.te some of - 22 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) that already with Ray Supply, and they',ve been very helpful in understanding the si tuation, and we compensate their employees. We give them a 50 percent discount for allowing us to have cars park there. MR. CARVIN-Well, lets see. Any other questions of the applicant? MR. GREEN-Yes. How do you service this deck, or how do you service the pichic tables now? Do you have a proposed doorway in the front, or where do the waiters come and go from? MR. PARK-There's a door, actually, ,on the north side.' It's open all the time for fire reasons and so on, and it's a sidewalk going around to that,. so what we do is utilize that for the wait staff, coming in and out of there, and ~hat way they're not trying to deal wi1h the line ~t the door. MR. GREEN-There's some shrubbery in there between the picnic tables and the building. Is that going to stay? MR. PARK-Yes. We're going to actually re-do that, but, yes, just because the shrubbery that's there is like five, six feet tall, and it kind of takes away, you can't see out the windowl ~ery~ell. So we're going to re-do that, but, yes, that is going to stay. MR. GREEN-There's also two big sewer covers right in the middle of that. Do you have any problems covering those up? MR. PARK-No. The deck was going to go ovet the top of that, but with removabl.e panels that wou'ld be screwed in place, so that"they would'obviously have to have access in there, should a pumping have to take place, or any kind of cleaning. MR. CARVIN-Do you anticipate having any amenities out there? I'm assuming you serve alcohol, do you, inside? MR. PARK-Yes. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Are you going to have any set up tables, in other words, silverware 0'1" soda fountains' or anything like that that might be out on that deck area? MR. PARK-No. Right on the side öf the building there, 'we have like a portable table which we've had there for years, just set up there, just, for the waitresses to set their trays on and so on, but that's not, like, on the deck or out into, you know. MR. CARVIN-Okay. You're not going to have a port'able, for, lack of a better term, a portable bar? MR. PARK-No. MR. CARV IN- I don't ¡know if. you guys,' I think you .were on, when we did the O'Toole's deck there. I mean, they have a re'gular outdoor service area. MR. PARK-No. I mean, that might be something that could evolve, seeing that it would help us to have like a portable pepsi dispenser out there, and if we needed a variance for that, we would come back fo¡r that; but right now, we plan on se'rvicing from the ins ide of the restaurant, wh i ch we've pretty, much dòneaJll' along. We've just put extra people on for the fron~. MR. CARVIN-Okay. I ' .1 1 open up the publi cheal" i ng. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED NO COMMENT - 23 - (Queens bury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED MR. CARVIN-Hów about it, Dave, what do you think? I'll start with you. MR. MENTER~Wel1, J kind of agree with George, in the sense that there £s~ian increa,se'in, there certainly, with this size deck, is a ¡retd pr;obably,JÏl1:creas'eiim traffic there, and,'I've been stuck in thatpark>ing;!ot,pùlling my hair out, a couple of times. It is tight. I think it's a real, for me, it's kind of a real stretch. Eight feet from the 1 ine is pretty substantial, in terms of the relie'f, that would 'be, required. I don't have any problem, in general, with professionalizing the front and doing something there to clean it up and make it nicer. I do have, I think, a problem with the size of. it. I sort of, I have a general question here, someone'may know Ii little better than me. What's involved w,ith the use of the adjacent parking, the parking on the other side there, at Ray's. Is that something that nobody wants to touch with a ten foot pole? MS. CIPPERl.:'Ù·Th.ere've been a couple'of cases wherépatking, there have beenagreem:ents,; for instance the Log Jam restaurant ;and the Log Jam shops used to all be on one parcel, and when that was spl it off, they had a parking arrangement, but they don't conflict, in terms of when tilere' s a need for'parki ng, because' the Log Jam mainly does a dinner business. Ray Supply and Pizza Hut are kind of open at the same time, and¡as far as Pizza Hut.' MR. CARVIN-:-They're really not contiguous either. MR. MENTER-fIt's not really corrmon parking. MR. CARVIN-Corrmon parking like that. The only other one I can think of is that Cool Bean there, that Daggett's. I think they were looking, but that, ag'ain, was a conmon ownership issue. MR. MENTER-Yes. MS. CIPPERLY-And I know that does happen on this strip, here, like between Nobles hardware and the McDonald's restaurant, there!s a little walkway that somebody's at one or the other, you know, they go back and forth, but it's not a formal agreement, and I think there's more of a problem getting ,inrand out of Pizza Hut than any of ; U\Osè other, places that I've mentioned. There's a real bottlenebk right there, at the entrance, and then when you get back there, there's no parking spaces ahyway. MR. MENTER-I think that in order to consider that parking, I think it wOUlld bea pretty', invol ved1 thing, 'eight? MS.. CIPPERLY-You mean the next door? MR. MENT,BR-Yes. In order to cons:ider that, technically, and say, okay,well, you've got this parking",and you've ,go't, this additional parking here. iSO, yes, you know, addirti'onal traffic is not going to be a proD'lem. In order to really consider that parking as add'i'tioual parking for you, I think there's an awful lot ,of things you have to go through. MS. CIPPERLY-Like,Ray's Supp'ly, there's parking requirements for Ray's Supply, also~ MR. MENTER-Yes. Is it parking for both? Does he have the parking? How formally does he agree with it? I guess my point is, that's something that we probably can't consider, at least the way, from what 1- know. MR., CAR\7.IN-I think we can only consider the lot ¡that we're dealing - 24 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) with. MS. CIPPERLY-I mean, that's how the parking requirements are set up, as if it's all on one site. MR. MENTER~But fortunately' it's,tight parking" and agaihi1' I don't have a problem wi th cl eaning it up and 'doing some. deck work out there, 'to accomm'odate what you have 'p ight now 'for tab1e~" ¡but, you know, I thirlk the 1200 square, feet i.sawfuibig, in adtUHo'n to it being awful close to the road. ' MR. CARVIN-Do you have any rough idea of what that grave,l area is right now, what kihd of area are the ten or so? MR. PARK-You mean the actual size of that gravel area? I,t'd; about 35 ,f-eet by about 50 fee1.:'So the deck is smaller than the existing area. MR. REEF-The building itself is 35 feet wide. MR. MENTER-The tables out there are quite spread'~ut,aren't they? I think they're very, it's not like a dining area type of a configuration. MR. PARK-There's a path that goes around a circle. MR. CARVIN-Bob,what do YOU think? MR. KARPELES-Well, I think if it's going to be srnaller than: the existing area, I don't think I've got any strenuous objection to it. I'm just wondering, on the parking, is there any waYJrthat you can connect in back, or is the layout of the land such that it doesn't? MR. PARK-You mean with Ray's Supply? MR. KARPELES-Yes. MR. PARK-No. There's a retaining wall there, a cement retaining wall, and it's got to be at least 20 feet high. They'r,ecbu:ilt on two different levels. MR. KARPELES-It's a difficult location. I just wonder. I hate to see people trying to turn, in hère, and dis:covering it's full" and then have to come back out and go around and go into Ray' ,s Supply and discover it's there. I'm wondering how you would cope with telling people that they can park there? MR. PARK-Again, these peak periods that we're speaking of" like in the tourist season, that's one of the things we were going to start educating our locals, because I, myself, do not like to go td the Mall or wherever and drive around looking for a parking place. I'd rather walk a Ii ttlefarther, and park for convenience, and so that's what we were' going. to stress to our locals, through some in store fliers, to let them know, and to educate them, that, look, if you ever have a problem with the parking lot" we have adequate parking up h'ere. It's just as easy, really waLking no farther from Ray's Supply than it is in our parking lot. MR. KARPELES-Yes, but what percent,age of the people are local in your peak hours? Aren't most of them tourists? MR. PARK-No. - You mean, as far as like, in the summer' time? MR. KARPELES~Yes. MR. PARK- I mean, I can't quote you on how many, but I mean the regulars that I see every Friday night or Saturday night and still - 25 - ~ ~~ ~ (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) come faithfully. ! ¡ MR. REEF-I'm not sure that it's not happening now. People pull in there expecting to wait for a table, and they pull in, if they don't have a p,arking spot, they're turning around and þull ing back out now. Again, we"pe jusrt: trying to serve mOTe people all at once, versus trying to make people wait for the tables to turn over. So there's a quantity of people already there. I'm not even su're how muohgrowth. we will get out of this. I guess one of the things ,we're probably going to do is accomplish not having people wa,lk away after they'veg.ot there, so we're just going t{),take all ,those people, that are there and try to' serve themial1 at once, versus have the{Il w~Üt fora half.ran' hour, forrty minute turn over, and like ,I said. They~o in there now. If they don't ,find a spot, they rturnatound and thercome'out. I, MS. C,lrpPERLY,..Have ybuconsidèred'building another Pizza Hut? MR. PARK-We did. That's what the Exit418 store was supposed to do. MS. CIPPERLY-j m~ani thiere~sithree'McDonalds within afair,ly small. MR. REEF-;We put one in Lakie George. We put one in Exit 18, and for some 'reason, people 'still come, and the only thing ,we could ,probablY do is move thà t 1 Dca tii dn, 'which it's a 20 year lease. It's an old lease. It's hard to walk away from a lease that's 20 years old and start allover again. At some point, that's going to happen. It's 30 years, actuaHy, two five year. options. We're going into our 20th y.ear now.So,i'y.es), we could do that. That's the best of both worlds right now, but we're just trying, I mean, we're not part of the co'rporate Pizza Hut group. We're just a cou:plei'of, guys trying to ,figure out to seat more people on a deck right ITOJW,. They're cur,rentlysitìting out there right now, and we' re'trytng' to just clean it \:lp and make it look nice, and it affords a gr·eat vi'ewover there, ,and I know when the Balloon Festival comes into Town people go out there and sit on the picnic tables j us·t "to watch the Ball oon Fest i val, and I ,th ink' :¡ f we had something that was more appeal ing, it would not only dr.aw people into the community, but look nice also. That's really our purpose for doing ~t. We understand that we're looking for a variance, and probably a seven foot, eight foot setback ,tis not, but I think we measured from the road, itwas,dik:e 45 feet." MR. PARK-41 and a half out there. MR. REEF-41and à half feet from the road, ,and' i: f the Board, you probably don't like to do contingencies or isti,pulations, but ,I mean if YOU' 'f-e;ft ,at some point that it was, a"hind·èrartce, we would be willing to do an agre.'ementthat we, would take 'it down. 1 mean, it's an'in,vestment, but if you found it to be ,something that would detrimental, we.would.agree up front to take it down. We're trying to be'as up front as we can with everything. MR. PARK-There's one thing that I think, possibly, the deck does, as far asìfriaìybe relieving traffic, is the point Terry has made, people c,ome into the'restaurant, and there's a,line, you know, say eigh't :t'olten p,eoplè ,i.n line. People w,ill, a lot; of times, turn around and just not want to deal with a line. Wher~as,if we have the deck out there, we could operate it more. Even if just four partieis go' outside, there',s no line. They come ¡'no The''y'remore apt to wait or be seated quicker, and not have to turn around. So, !I mean, H; could maybeJhhve"a positive effect, in terms of traffic. MR.' CARVIN-What happens if it rains? MR. REEF,..lt always does, 'and we still get people pouring in, and we're busy. inside, but we can't doanything,with t,he'outside. Our intention) was', and this may open up a bigger can of worms,', but - 26 - -- (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) initial our intent was to put a canopy on it, but .we first wanted to put the deck on and see if it get would get use, and then if it did, find out what we needed to do to put a canopy on itt because that is, that's another best of both worlds. When it rains,' all the people want,to come and eat. If you don'~ have a spot ~or' them to sit down, you lose business. ~hat happens now. MR. CARVIN-Bill, what do you think? MR. GREEN-Well, to address the parking, I, personally,f,.don't, have a concern with the p;arking. If I go there and Ic'an'tfind a place to park, I'm going 'to drive away, and, sure, you don't want to overload the site. You want to make sure there's adequate parking. At least you've made an attempt at ,Ray's Supply, but I don't have a concern with the parking. I think that's just more of a, it would be nice to have more par,king and get more busi!nessout of it, and you've only got so many spaces and so many people can park there, and t ha t 's goi ng to put a limi t on the amount' of 'þ'eop 1 e you can serve anyway. My only concern (lost words). I'd like to see it back another five, ten feet. MR. REEF~Well, we have the In foot of landscaping. We'wanted to leave that. I mean, if that was, you know, put the landscaping between the deck and the road, and eHminate, you know, 17, 18 feet of f the proper ty line, and go out 50 or 60 f,ee t, off the < road., and that's an option, too, we'd be willing to do, if that made a difference. MR. GREEN-¥es. I'm just 'not' really comfortable with the eight feet. I know it's sti 1.1 some :40 feet off the road. MR. CARVIN-What's Staff's feeling abou.t acovéred deck?.I mean, if we grant & deck variance, and they'decide to put a canopy or put a hard roof over that" and leave these sides open, what' is that considered? I mean,is there anything to prevent. them? They don't have to comebaok for a variance, I don'tbeliev~~ MR. THOMAS-Well, what about th:ecanopie,s over the gas islands that were g i'ven? , , MS. CIPPERLY-Well, the setbacks, as long as it didn't exceed the setback for the deok, I mean, you're, considering a structure right now, with the knowledge that' some day it may end up with a canopy over it. MR. MENTER-I think what happens is I think decks tend to evolve. So, at this stage,of the game, I think we need to consider' it as a structure, and I would do ,exactly what you're doing, if it were my business, but 1 'm looking at 179,-66. It says, "Whenever an owner or opera tor of a restaurant, club, tavern or bar adds 01' has exis,ting adj:ac<ent ,thereto a non-enclosed,deck for patron seating purposes', additional parking shaU be required, and the number of spaces required shall be equal to that ~sually required if said club, restaurant, tavern or bar had been enlarged to the dimensions of the deck". So essentially what they're saying is, what you're doing is you're putting an addition on to the bu±lding. Now the sticky part of the issue comes in, in the faot that you've already got tables ou~ there, and you're already u~ilizing thatr.ithout any kind of a struo~ure at all. MR. CARVIN-Ha've you thought about putting a pe,rmanent structure? MR. PARK-We would like 'to do that, but I;didn't think we would have the abi I i ty to do that. I didn't think the Town would go for something I ike that. I know the Town probably sees it as a permanent structure. We kind of see a deck as something that's not as expensive to do asa permanent structure,and can come down if there's a pf·(!>blem or if i tdoesn' t work for us . I· mean, I guess we would p ròbabl y love to pu t an add i ti on on to the f rant of that - 27 - r , (Queens bury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) buildintg,butw€ never even, I guess, conceived of it because we didn't think ,that it would fly. MR. MENTER-Probably wouldn't utilize the resource that you have out there as well, anyway. I mean, there's a great visual impact to having some ni,ce outside ,seating with a nice view like'that. MR. GREEN-I would be more concerned with the parking if it was a permanent structure, a building that could be used all year round, winter, rain. ' MR. MENTER-Well, what this is saying is that that's not your prerogative to. MR. G~EEN~Exactly. okay. It's, not my prerogative to consider that, but MR. MENTER-I mean, that's all. .! . .' MS. CIPPERLY-We just had Mr. Kenny on the ager\da, just as an example. The addition on his south side started as sort of a concrete deck,and it was open air seating, and it didn't need any variances or any site plan or' anything, and then he wanted to enclose it. So then you get 800 square feet of addi tional business, and then you wànt to do the same thihg on, the òther side to make it match, and I'm not saying that Pizza Hut would want to do that, but that's the sort of thing that theopèn airìseating, I think yo.u 'ire f'¡ gh t in say i og tha!ti t can evot ve. So I th ink what you're considering now is not quite the same as if he were planning a'permanen1:indoor s:tl"\I'ctur:e, but it's, at least in the,parking regulations it's con~idered an extension of the building. MR. REEF-We wouldagr.ee tò any stipulations. ¡Really right now our only cohcern :is to put a deck on it to boost some of the capacity. I.f you' f el 1: that a canopy was iropor tant ,and there was a 'stipulation put' on that we could not put one on until we came before! .:the Board. again, we'd be happy to agr ee to tl1a t, or any other stipulations that might be required. We're not trying, and I know, they do evolve. That's not in our plans right now, and probably if we were able to do it and we didn't need, änd it was an idea that came up in the future and we didn't need to have any apþrovalto doit, that might make it an easier decifs'ion, but if we knew that we had, to come back har.e in order to do it, we I d probabl y think twice about it, or at least you would háve the ability to turn us down for that. MR. CARVIN-Is there no way you can expand toward the back? I know there wa's on'lya cou~le of parking places, and it seèmed to me there was likè ~'waste area. MR. REER,..Yes. We haVle a waste receptacle back there, and there's a shed ~ttaohed to the b~ilding'and then there's parking also back therie. MR. CARVIN-Yes, but I know there's parking that looks like it's fairly new. I 'don't ever remember seeing that parkin'g along that back 'hi 11 . Has that alwaysbeèn thetè? MR. PARK-Yes. That's always been there. All that parking in back has always been there. MR. THOMAS-How about putting the deck up on the roof? MR. REEF-We considered that. That definitely would be more expèns i v,e¡ to do something 1 i ke that,. , , jJ MR. CARVIN-Or even a seoond story. I: meali, they' could put a whole permanent second story, probably. 28 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) MR. REEF-And we could run into some franchise req.uirements,. because we are a franchise requirements for the 'structur,e" the change, although they have made amendments. I'm not going to say that they haven':t. MR. CARV IN,...We 1 1 , it appears prof i table as YOill seem to indicate. I mean, I don't think they're going to have a real problem if you wanted to put a'second story on it. MR. GREEN-It all focuses back around the parking. MR. CARVIN-The parking,yes. MR. GREEN-They haven't got enough parking, now, for the seats they've got. So; if you want to, you know, through the patki ng into the mix, then we shouldn't have any addition, no matter where you park. MRS. LAPHAM-A second story would actually double it, rather than just the small percentage. MR. THOMAS-We 11, what I was say i ng, ins tead of put t'ing the deck out front, put the deck on the roof. MR. CARV IN~But then they'll end up wi th two. MR. REEF-I don 't know if we could do it. If we had: a good engineer, we coul<!i, ,but I don'tlicnow if that would enhance the look of it, either.' That's one of the things we're trying to do is clean that spot 'up. For a long time, we had our septic up there, and now that the, Town has run a sewer I ine up there" tha:t whol e problem has gone away, and we've always been hesitant to even try to ,do anything with a deck because of the problems *e'vehad, out there. Now that problem has gone away, so we figured if there was asew,er, problem, at least the septic problem at the time, and we had to tear the deck down every other yê~r, it probably wouldn't have been very smart to do, but the !chances of that happening! are very minimal now. MR. CARVIN-Bonnie, any tho~ghts? MRS. LAPHAMi-Well, I just wanted to ask. You had mentioned revers'ing the deck and the shrubbery, ·like th1e shrubbery now is against the building. MR. REEF-Exactly. Yes. MRS. LAPHAM-And so it does, i tpushes the deck, because I! m very uncomfortable with it so close, you know, setbacks. MR. REEF-We could take the landscaping out, move the detk ag*inst the, well, not against the building, but up to'the sidewalk, and then put the landscaping in front of the deck, which would create another 10 feet buffer, if you will. MRS. LAPHAM-I'd feel better if i,t were done that way. The parking issue's definitely a problem. My main concern is the fact that it is so close to the road. I'd feel better if you reversed it, as we just discussed. MR. PARK-We definitely would be amenable to that. MR. CARVIN-Chris? MR. THOMAS-Well, you know,this reminds me of the O'Toole's variance, about that and the traffic and especially since this is bn a downhill where they're starting to pick lip speed coming down that hill, the problems that we ran into with that one. I like the - 29 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) idea' of pushing the deck back to the building, to get it back farther ,from the, road, but I stUl don't know if that would be back 'far enough. As everybody else is concerned about, the parking. I . mean, if somebody sees a deck therre, they're going to figure, well, it's a Pizza Hut, plus another 48 seats. So I'm SUire ,we can get in there real' quick. Still with'the parking, tbey're hot going to be able' to, and, George" 'When you ,took into consideration the 71 parking spaces., Was that including Pizza Hut and Long John Silvers' square footage? MR. HILTON-Yes. MR. THOMAS-And another thing, too., is if Pizza Hut gets a deck out front, is 'Long,jol:1nSilvers going to want a deck out front, and then we're reall y going to get into a ballgame. :MS.CIPPERLY~On thè I other; hand, McDonalds already has outside, I agree wi th you as _ far as a precedent, and McDonalds al ready has that with the umbrella tables. MR. THOMAS-Yes, but I think they have the parking, don't they? MS. CIPPERLY.,.They have the parking~ yes, but I get a little bit concerned about the distraction factor, too, and you're driving down the road, with all tbes~, ~f it becomes. MR.MENTER-Tha:t you could probably mitigate somewhat, with plantingsand ·that kind of thing. MR. CARVIN-Is there lightihg out there now? MR. PARK-Yes. MR. CARVIN-There is? Where, is it, up in the trees or on poles? MR. PARK-Actually, on the corners of the building., MR~ CARVIN.,.Shifting just out?, I MR. PARK-Yes. MR. CARVIN-;Alil rr-ight. '·How are yougQing to i ight your deck? I mean, I'm assuming you're going to have poles of some sort, out toward the road? " MR.PARK-We!l1, thededk." if it's only 30 feet away. We basically don't serve at night right now. We only serve until about seven o'clock. MR. RrEEF.,.Usuall y at 8: 30 it gets dark, it gets dark in the sumner time around 8:30,9. The Great Escape lets out at six. That's our heaviestimp·a'ct, belIw.e"en six and eight. I mean, we haven't really considered the'additional lighting, at this point, but if' it was needed, we 'would' have -to, because cus tomers wouldn't be abl e to see the menus, if that'wa,$. the case, but ri'ght now we' r'e just depending on the light, it :'being 'light until 8:30. MR. CARVIN-I have a\ problem with this. I 'really do. 1'm looking at the benefit to theapþlicant, and, I mean, you haven't told me that by not gett ing the deck 'you're go ing to have an economi c de'trdh1ent ,because you've .al r eady got' the seating. So there is 'reall yno added benefit, other than it j'us t makes it more p:leasan t for, ¡your cus tamers and i t creates a huge prohl em, I think, for us, as fjar as, the parking is concerned. So, r mean, not that economic ,benef,itiIs'something that we l"Ook a1, like a Use Variance, but if we' don ~ t grant the: deck, you al ready: ,have the seating. It's jus t in a different form, and it's in a form right now that I think it fits in the grey area. I mean, there is really no ordinance or - 30 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) anything prohibiting you to put out another 28 different tables, as far as I know. I mean, nobody has told me that, gee whiz,Jwe have an Ordinance governing 'picnic tables, and I undetstandc,ømple'tely where you're coming from,and if I was a business p'erson ,in a similar business, I'm sure that your request is not a bad request. I just think it opens up a can of worms io a very difficult spot, because if we need to put lighting out there, 1 don't know how much distraction that lighting is going to be, eight Of ten fe,et from a major highway. I mean, the people coming down around that corner right now, it could cause some problems. I just don't know, and I'm not quite sure I want to really step up to the plate; and find out, at this point. A smaller deck, a lot further back, maybe, but then it comes back to this parking issue,and I think this Board has looked at that pretty close, and I think¡ ,Chris has got a very valid point, that we've got a similar situation right next door on the same lot, and if we give you a deck, and you go out and you put o'ut 35 di fferent tables, maybe Long John Si 1 vers'come in and says, hey guys, I mean,' we wan t to expand our ar ea. MR. REEF-They have lighting on the deck, and it seems to be about 10, 12 feet off the road. MR. CARVIN-The O'Tooles situation was a very, very touchy one. In fact, the O'Tooles situation was built w'¡thout comp'liance'. That's number one. Number Two, we mandated and we made them put in an awful lot of safety barriers. Number Three, that deck comes off whenever that current owner sells. So I mean, thete's al1'i8wful lot of strings on that deck, and having sat on that porch !for the O'Tooles, I want to tell you, it was not a pleasant situation, and I think, I know Chris was on it., I don't know,Bob¡ if you were on the O'Tooles Board. MR. KARPELES-Yes. 1 got it after the fact. MR. CARVIN-And that one was a real sticky wicket, and I just don't want to start' to perpetuate those types of situations. As I said, I mean, if you were to say to me, gee whiz, our business is dying and the deck would improve it, but that's not thé case~ That is just not the case. You've got your cake, at this point, and the only benefit to you is just to make it a little bit neater, which, you know, certainly might be more enticing, which will bring in more business, but you haven't pleaded a hardship, that you're loosing business. MR. REEF-We try to stay ahead of the game, and try to stay out of the Dairy Queen scenarios. You fall behind the cùrb, ànd bêfore you know it you find yourself in that, situa1;ion. MR . CAR V I N - Yes . Un for tun ate I y , t hat's not the fa u I t 0 f the Ordinance. I think it's the fault of' the site. :1 mean~ iif you had unlimi:ted parking, I'd have, no prohlem plitting a deckíon ther,e, but you're saying, well, gee whiz, we've expanded, we actually have right now roughly 60 ,people that there is no parking for. I mean, that's not even in the figure. This area 1's not partiof the parki,ng calculation, and now you're saying'well,gee whiz, if we put this deck on, we'll probably b'e',abile togo' to 80, which again is not wrong, but again, that would just compound a bad parking situation, and that's not the fault of the Ordinance. That's'just the fault of the fact that you're si'tting on a very confi.ded lot, and as much as I'd 1 i ke to take into cons idera t i o'n the e1lectr i c store there, but we just can't. Lmeanthere's nothing .that,lsays tha.t George Goetz 'i s goi ng to s tr ike a dèal wi th you g1ì1YS ¡forever and ever. He cou ld , next week, say, guess wha ti I'don ¡,t\ need, the 50% discount. Then we're confronted with.a real situa;tiofl. So I mean, my,basic feeling isl just have a real,hardtime supporting this application. Anybody else have any thoughts? If not, I'd like to move it. - 31 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) MR. KARP'ELES-We'11 you ve probably prett,y well conviAced me. I was for it. I I , ;¡ MOTION TO DENY AREA '''1ARII.ANCE NO. '16',-,11996 ,'MICMEL PARK'. MANAGER PIZZA ,HUT, Introduced by Fred Càrvin who moved for its adoption, seconded by David Menter: The apþiicant proposes to construct a deck J'which wi'll be located approx:¡rnatelyeightf~ét from the front,property, line,' and in order for him; to.construct this deck h'e needs setback ·reLief from Section 1'79-23C·and Sêctidn '179-28Ü,lwtHch is Ithe:Tr'avel'Cotridor Overlay Zone. I don't bel i eve the appli cant has demonstrated that a significant benefit would be accrued to him by the building of this dec~, when weighed against the possible detriment to the community, as farra,s sa,fetYt health and welfare is concerned. The applicant has indicated that because he already has'picnic tables out there andis'utilizing the proposecft deck area, that the only real benefit woU'ld be'to make the' area that much neater. I believe that this relief would be substantial relative to th!e Ordinance~ Where the setback from Route 9 is 75 feet, and the applicant is proposing only, ei:ght .feet, which, means that reI ief of 67 feet would have to be granted, which is pretty substantial. ¡'Not on'ly is the relief being sought substantial, by :agreeing to this variance, the appl i call1twould have: to increase his patking to accommodate the expans i on, .and at this point, there does' not appear to be any additional parking that can be created on this lot because of a joint sharing with the Long John Silver'. In other words, there's two restaurahts on one lot, and I think if we were to grant this variance that certainly we would be adding to the situation, especially regardirig parking access in and out onto Route 9, which agai n cou 1 d 'be det r imental to the' safety and we 1 far e 0 f the community. Duly adopted this '2:7th day of March, 1996, by the following vote: f' AYES: Mr. Thoma.s, Mrs. Lapham, Mr. Green, Mr. Menter, Mr.' Karpeles, Mr,~Carvin NOES: NONE ABSENT: Mr. Ford Mfit. CARVIN-It's denied. Thank you. MR. REEF-I appreciate .you treating it with the sens'i'tivity that you did. Thanks verytnuch. AREA VARIANCE NO. 18-1996 TYPE II WR-1A CEAKEVIN KANE OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE BAY ROAD TO TEE HI LL ROAD, LEFT ONTO HALL ROAD, RIGHT ONTO GLEN HALL ,DRIVE APPLICANT SEEKS TO 'CONSTRUCT AN ADDITION TO A SINGLE FAMILY! HOME WHICH RE!QUIRESRELIEF FROM THE EXPANSION OF A NON-CONFORMING STRUCTURE REQUIREMENTS OF SECTION 179-79A2. WARREN COUNTY PLANNING 3/13/96 TAX MAP NO. 45-3-24 LOT SIZE: 0.24 ACRE SECTION 179-79A2 KEVIN KANE, PRESENT STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff, Area Variance No. 18-1996, Kevin Kane, Meeting Date: Màrch 27, 1996 '.'PROJECT'L0CA1'ION: Glen. Hall Drive PROPOSED PROJECT AND CONFORMANCE WITH THE ORDINANCE: The appl icant is proposing to construct a second floor addition to a single family/home. This expansion is greater than 50% of the area of the original structure and requires relief from the expansion of a nonCOnhHm¡ing str\.Icture requiremen1:s,of Section 179~79A2. CRITERIA FOR CONSIDERING AN AREA VARIANCE, ACCORDINC TO CHAPTER 267, TOWN LAW. 1. BENEFIT TO THE APPLICANT: This will provide the - 32 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) applicant with additional living space for his home'. 2. 'PEAS,IBLE ALTERNATIVES: There does not seem to be any alternative which could provide a lesser amount of relief from the Ordinance. 3. IS THIS .RHLIEF S\JBSTANTIAI..RELATIVE TO"1T1Œ0RDliNANCE?': The original square footag'e of the'bui lding is listed as, ,420 sqUë:ire feet. (Assessor) The proposed second floor addirtion would icoil11tain 636 square feet. 4. EFFECTS ON THE NEIGHBORHOOD OR COMMUNITY?: It appears that anaddi t ion to this home in the propos èd 1 oC~it ion would not have an impact on the'nE!i,g,hborhood att!his time. However, there may be some fur ther comments at the pub! i,c hearing. 5. IS THIS DIFFICULTY SELF-CREATED?: This 10,750 square foot lot has a wid~h of 50 feet~ The original square footage of the home was 410, sq. ft. (Assessor). Any outward or upward expahsibn of this structure would require relief from the Zoning Ordinance. PARCEL HISTORY:, The square footage of the, original building was 420 square feet~ currently there is 636 sq~ ft. ~f living'spaoe on this site (Asses'sor).' The total amount of new floor:area,prroposed is 636 sq. ft. The property was purchased by the current owner in 1993. SEQR: Type II, no further a,ction required." i ¡ MR. THOMAS-"At a meeting of the Warren County Planning, Board,,¡ held on the 13th day of March 1996, the above applicátion f,(Dr an"Area Variance for a vertical expansion of a single family dwellinrg. 1 was reviewed and the following action was taken. Recommendati,en to: No County Impact" Signed by C. Powel South, Chairpersol1è." MR. CARVIN-All right. is proposing? Okay. Does everyone understand what the applicant Are there any ques~ions of the applicant? MR. MENTER-I, haveone"how did we get f'r:om,if you know, yow've had it since 1993, from a 420 original to,the curren1:? MR. KANE-I'm not quite sure. When I went back to ask, to look about what the plans were', design, septic,'maps it was nothing like this. The only thing was (lost words). My impression was that the previous owners had taken camp, enlarged it, winte,rized it,without really doing, saying anything to anybody. That's my impression. When I went in, it was a new, relatively new construction, with the previous five years. MS. CIPPERLY-Just to get the figures straight, right now according to just doing the map, on this first floor, you and then you have about 300 square feet in the basement. a total of 936, right now, plus you want to put another s'o we have the numbers in agreement, okay., MR. MENTER-That's about 67.9% increase,isthat right? you have, have 636, So that's 636, jus t .,¡ MS. CI PPERLY- I t comes to a' total of 1572. . ~ .,~ ',' 'I, z}j MR. . CARVIN-Any iother; qUèstiöns, anybody? ex.Í'~rt i ng fir s t ¡:frl ò~r ,p 1 an basement? Yøu're calliag' the MR. KANE..,Right. , t" , r,,;t ~ MR. CARVIN-Okay. I'm looking at your side schematic here, and I guess my question is, this is what's existing now, right? ~he deck is there? MR. KANE-Right. That will be where the living room is. MR. CARVIN-Right. We'll, this is what I call the first floor. This is not there. MR. KANE-They're measuring the height elevation from, lily basement opens out, becàuse of the ground ,wha t i's shaded, open deck, right now it's enclosed because I have my lawn furni ture Ol:1t, there, that shaded area, Und'er t>hat:'deck. - 33 - (Queens bury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) MR. CARV IN-Okay. Here? There's another' deck here? MR. KANE-Right. MR.r CARVIN-It's a walkou,t? MR. KANE-A walk out. MR. CARVIN-Well, that's what I was wondering. living area here? This is basement MR. KANE-Yes. , :,' I MR. CARVIN-All right. What's the front? Is there still going to be a walk out here? MR. KANE-Yes. MR. CARV1N-In other words, I.'ve got your side. I don't know what the front looks like. Do you have a' front schematic? MR. KANE-Yes. winterizing. Tha1:'s enclosed now, with temporary .things for MR. CARVIN-Okay. MR. KARPELES~This is a deck on here? MR. CARVIN-Yes. This will be open. Apparently, there's, is there a'door o~ is there sliding glass? In ~ther words, you've got this as shaded as a po~ch area.. or a deck area. MR. KANE-Can I walk out there from the basement? Yes. MR. GREEN-What's your overall height going to be? MR. ,KANE..,Thirty-five feet. The original plan called for a higher roof, but I think that the Town standard is 35 feet. That deck that's there already is enclosed, or winterized. I put my lawn furniture, and my 'dog 'c,an, go out there when it's too cold,.' but otherwise. MR. MENTER-Bas.ically it's anòpen deck. MR. KANE-It's an open': deck . MR. MENTER-And that would be the door right ,there. MR. GREEN-That's going to stay the same? MR. KANE-Basically, I'm just taking the roof 'off and going straight up. MRS. LAPHAM-So this is the walk out basement, and this is what he's calling the first floor? MS~ CIPPERLY-The first floor, and then he wants to add another. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Does anybody ,have any questions of the applicant? MR. MENTER-Have you spoken to any of your neighbors? MR. KANE-I h,avea signed petiti:on. I spoke to people who are' year round residents. I also :spo1kewi th ;the inmediate house to the right, as you' regoingto down the stairs, facing the lake, it's on the right, and I spoke wi th the house fur ther to the right, who has '~local caretaker. He said that was fine, too. - 34 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) MR. CARVIN-So you will not·be caring this camp all the way dòwn, just that top roof and then just going off? MR. KANE-I'm going to even the, what I call the first floor, because I walk in that way, just taking the trusses off and gOing straight up. MR. CARVIN-If there's no questions, I'll open up the public hearing. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED NO COMMENT PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED MR. CARVIN-Okay, folks, what do you think? (, ;~ MR. GREEN-Well, my first question, .I guess is really mare of an engineering question, judging from some of the other structures around it, just kind of looking at that one, I don't know if the structure would nolda second or third floor or whatever., 'but that's something you've got to work out with your contractor and engineer. My other thought is that this building now seems to sit up higher than the other couple right around it. You p~~ another floor on, and it's going to be up even higher. I'm not sure how it's going to look from the lake. I didn't get in abóat and go out there. MR. KANE-The picture' that is up there, if you look" th'e one where I'm standing on the dock, okay, there are fairly tall- trees. You can't see the house from the lake. MR. GREEN-There are a lot of trees around it already. MR. KANE-For the most part, other than that particular angle, you can't see 'my hous'e from thè lake. I've left the trees there on purpose. MR. GREEN-You can see those trees are going to pretty much knock it out anyway. MR. KANE-I've left those trees there on purpose,., take those trees down, but in the summer time riding around in boats, having their cocktails. your face. So I've left the trees there on shields the individuals. Everybody says, you have peopl e They'tèrigbt in purpose, so that MR. GREEN-So far, I don't have any oth'€f corrments, than t,hat. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Bonnie? MRS. LAPHAM-The house was quite small before. That's the first thing I noticed when I wast.lp there was the trees wouldshield;:most visual impact from the lake. From the rear, there isn't an~ Misual impact that's going to bother anybody because it's just his iImnediate neighbors, and if they haven't come forward ·to object, then I guess they're not bothered, and so that would be my only other concern. I don't have a problem with it. MR. CARVIN-Chris? MR. THOMAS-I like the way it looks, but here we go with another three 'story bui,lding on Glen Lake. It's only going to.be 35,feet high, but it's full of glass on the' front. 'Only two of the stories will have glass, but we've gone through this before, walk out basements, with two stories on top of it, but then again, too, we take into consideration theterra'in of the land because it slopes - 35 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) up, from the;back, it'll only look like tw'o stories, but with the glass: from the, front ,according to the: architect' ssketch , there's a lot of glass. We ran into this not only onClen Lake, but on Lake Ceor~e, with the reflection of t(;),e sun, people going by. They 1 ikè the 'trees.' ¡'understand, I know t,here' s trees out front. I'm very familiarwith:Clen Lake, but still ànd all, there's a lot of glass. It's a thrée story building, but it's a. goo.d looking three story building. MR. KARPELES-Well, I kind of agree with Chris. I think it is a good looking bui Iding, but I think we're just getting up there too h,igh. MR. MENTBR-The: height is 35 feet. I f that's too high, I don't see a hug h i mpac t from t hat, bee a u!;¡ e it' sun d e r the 35 fee t . It' s not too high. ¡, think the sizeof1;he house itself warrants some additional space. I don't know, it doesn't bring ,it out of character with the rest of the area because it's typical of what's going on there, and I think it's a nice building. I dort't think it would have a real negative impact there. MS. CIPPERLY-This, is sort of a twi$t on what ,you usually have. You usually have somebody who, I mean, this house is 27 feet from the shorel ine already and wants to go up. Us\¡)ally what you're dealing with is somebody who doesn't have a house or is tearing one down, wants reI ief from the setback, and you usually say to make the house short,er. I f you want to be closer to the lake, you're going to have to come down in height, and here the house is already there and wanting to go upwards, and I think, you know, in ,this particular case. 'you've got a,very sensitive treatment of the site, and I think, you know, this land owner has been good about that. There have just been, as you said, Chris, so much controversy over these tall buildings going in on the shoreline. If it were 75 feet back, 'whichLs, the setback requirelnent, maybe the height wouldn't be such a problem, but as it is, it's 27 feet from the shoreline. Another question 1. had was, what's the condi tion of the septic 'system'? ,1Js;thaf r:elatively newT 'n q i MR. KANE-I was told it was new. It's a 1,000 gallon tank~ For those of you who went there, it's where you park your car. It's up in the back. There's a pump outs ide of the back of the house, which pumps everything up to thJe top, and then it's a 1,000 gallon tank and a leach¡dieldback there. MR. CARVIN-Well, mycorrm'ents were that, apparently, you" re pretty close to your neighbors, and that ,you're going to have the highest or tallest house ther.e. I think it's going to'be visibly higher than the two neighbors which are fairly close to you and are those, well, I have to be careful. ,Are those one story camps or two story camps or one story" ,wi th a basement or are they simi lar in construct,ion and make up, as yours is? MR. KANE-To the left, the white one is for sale, it's a one story. Tha;t I know of, you can't go ,from an,inside basement (lost words). The one on the'rigþt" the òhethat's' occupièd, has four bedrooms ups tai rs ,'and thenl< downs tai rs it,' S ia; 1, i v ingroom/d in i ngroom. It's a two story, if that's the qUèstion. MR. CARVIN-Okay, and I'm sensitive to some of the issues that Chris and Bob have raised, and I know I'm sensitive to what Staff has raised, but then I look at this, and I guess I would be more sensi:tive' to: ,the height issue .if there were people behind him. There doesn't appear to be. TheI1e's nobody behind him. This is in ,an isolated cove, as I remember it. 'I' don't know what other feasibte al ternatives, I mean, :h,e dan't exp'and backwards because of the way ,the land is siituatetl. He doesn't have very much lot, so he can't, ,expand to t hes i ze, and the 600 or so square feèt, or 900 square feet is probably, I mean, you know, we grant garages at 900 square feet, for crying out loud. So I think that he does have, or - 36 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) there is a benefit hereto the applicant, and I don't see a real detriment to the community by allowing him to go up. I mean that's just my feeling in this particular ca"se. There is no other alternatives. A second/third story,dependimg on where yOu want to start counting. We've been confronted" I 'mean, that whole Glen Lake and parts of Lake George are all built on the side of the hill. I mean, that's just the way it is. ,We can't move it back. It doesn't make any sense to move it back. I mean, he's not tearing it down. I guess I don't have a real problem with it. MR. MENTER..,.l ,think the other thing, too, istha!t you don' thave a lot of, you know, you don't have a lot of width to the structure, which makes it much less imposing then some that we've seen going into the three story. If it was three or four times as w i'de as it is, and you were going three or four stories, now that's imposing, but this is fairly we:ll protected and actually it's a small building. MS. CIPPERLY-Fifteen hundred square feet isnøt a;big structure. MR. CARVIN-That's spread over three stories, if you stop and look at it from that aspec:t. He'll be goi ng up and down stai rs a ilot . MR. KANE- I aIr eady am. MS. CIPPERLY-It' appears you're currently using the bottom floor bedroom. Is that going to continue to be just a guest· room? MR. KANE-The bedrooms will be upstairs. Right now people sleep in my livingroom. lots of guests, that's where they'll go. anymore. That wQn't be a bedroom. So, hope.fully, if I have It won't ,bè a bedroom MR. CARVIN-Okay. Does anybody feel strongly enough one way or the other, if so, please make a motion. MOTION TO APPROVE AREA VARIANCE NO. 18..,.1996 KEVINiKANE, Introduced by David Menter who moved for its adoption, seconded by Bonnie Lapham: Who's proposing to constrUct a se;cond floor addition to h'Ís home. A variance is required because the expansion would beg.reaterthan 50 percent of the area of the or iginal strructure and requires relief from Section 179-79A2. The benefit to the applicant clearly , would be to increase the size of the Hving SPace of his building which is currently at 936 square feet. The feasible alterna~ives appear to be quite limited. The configuration !of the lot being narrow and sloped limit any outward expansionof,the building. In addition, the vertical expansion appears to be well prOtected by trees from the lakeside. At the same Hme, from the ,back of the building where the nonlake side, it does not appear to be potentially obstructing any view. There's been no negative comment from members of the neighborhood or communi ty¡ In fa'ct,' the applicant states that he has spoken to neighbors who have supported the project, including his immediate neighbor. Actual relief required, the proposed building would be comprised of 1572 square feet, which would require a 67.9% increase in the curr'ent size of the s'tructure. So relief would be 17.9%. While the relief may seem substantial relative to the Ordinance, the particularly small size of the original structure would require this type of relief, in order tOr expand the building to what would be ~ypically considered normally usable. In so much as the trees in the front, or the shoreline side of this property and home, are an important part of protecting the visual impact or limiting the visual impact from this building, we would just make norte that there is a 35 foot area within the shoreline where trees cannot be cut. I would make the applicant aware of that. - 37 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) Duly adopted this 27th day of March, 1996, by the follDwing vote: AYES: Mr. Menter, Mr. Thomas ,Mrs. Lapham, Mr.' Green, Mr. Carvin NOES: Mr. KèrpeJes ABSENT: Mr. Ford MR. CARVIN-Okay. Before we all scoot. MR. HI L TON-We have in the box next to Mr. Thomas, I bel ieve, a couple of letters that are to be read into the r~cörd~ conceThing an Area Variance for the Heineman property that we heard, I believe, a couple of months back here. The letters were presented to the Planning Board and asked to be read into the Zoning Board. So, if you would like to. ' MR. CARVIN-Okay. What is the status of that? Are they proceeding with it? Have they come up with an a!telmative? Because I think we granted that for a 60 day, and I think the public hearing is still open. MR. HILTON-Right. MR. CARVIN-And I guess what I'm saying is that we can read it in when they come back. Is that a problem? MR. HILTON-Okay. That's not a problem. I know that we mentioned it at the last meeting, that it was. on the agenda. . So I prepared the ,letters for <!you, if ydu want to read them in now, but if the public hearing, is still open, we can. MR. CARV 1,N...,We 1 I , 1 ,guess my only question is, I don't know if they're ~oing: to bring it back. I didn',t know if you'd had any lead information on that? MR. HILTON-I haven't had any contact with them. I haven't seen any new information either. ' MR. KARPELES-Can you refresh my memory of what the Heineman is? MR. CARVIN-All right. The Heineman is up on Pilot Knob. MR. HILTON-Yes. MR. CARVIN-They wanted to expand the house up there. They've got. , " MS. CIPPERLY-As, far as you can go" north, in"Queensbury. MR. THOMAS-There' 5 piJcturesattached '1:0 it. I f you want to pass it down through, it might jog your memory. MR. CARVIN-I think it's just th:e,two,'of them there, and I think that we had referred it back, so that they could look at, I think there was an alternative that they could 'add on the front of the building and still be in compliance. So that, the engineer was here, and he was going to go back to the Heinemans, and then I think they were going to work with Staff and see if they could come 'up wi·.tt\ S;oìiLêr1!hllilg that Wàs Ïn'éòJl1plTal1<;:é. ~'SoIwe gave themq~60 day tabling,and my feeling is 'thaJt they may re-de.šign this thing without the need of a variance, but if they don't come back within the 60 days, then they're out of luck. They'll just have to go through the whol e procedure allover again, and I think, they weren't on for March, so they've got to be on for April. MR. HILTON-Today was the deadline, and I think that we have the opportunity of one of the meetings in, April. If I get in tòuch with the applicant, we can ask for a possible extension of that - 38 - (Queens bury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) tabl ing, if they need it. MR. CARVIN-Well, I guess ,I would put the shoe on the ;other foot. I mean, if the applicant has legitimate reason, because we've notified, and when we table, we try to tell everybody that it's a 60 day tabling. So, I mean, if they require more time, I think they shoul d have had it in by now. I mean, we' 1¡e had other appl i cants go through the format, and if today is the deadl ine, well then today is the deadl ine, and everything el se becomes moot. I mean, what does everybody else feel? MR. KARPELES-I agree. MR. MENTER-Yes. MR. CARVIN-Okay. I have a consensus of the Board, so, I mean, if today's the deadl ine of the 60 days, I guess. MR. HILTON-Today/s the deadl ine fOIT the submi ttal date for, the April meetings. 'The 60 days runs out at the end of Ap'riL' MR. MENTER-Okay. MR. THOMAS-Yes. MR. CARVIN-So, it's still in their court. MR. HILTON-Okay. Additionally, Morgan VittengJ:, there was a var i ance propos!ed. Hi s proper ty is on Gl en Lake. They came i'n and there were some concerns about building on the steep slopei and there was some public comment made rega1fdingthe possible wetland between their property and the pond to the south, Mud Pond. I've been in contact with them, and they are trying to prepare something through their engineer. I. MR. CARVIN-When were they on? They were just on. MR. HILTON-They were on the same month, if not the same meeting, as the Heinemans. :d MR. THOMAS-Heineman, Long, and Kristensen were on for February the 21st. MR. MENTER-Who's coming back, the neighbor? MR. HIL.TON-The applicant, Vittengl, Morgan Vittengl. Itiwastabled for 60 days. They're working with us to try to present something. They've informed me today ,that they don't thi nkthey can meet the April deadline. In fact, we haven't seen anything, and they are requesting extension of their tabling for possibly another 60 days. MR. CARVIN-The!Boa~d's feeling? MR. MENTER-We may ;have less to do in 60 days. Who knows. 1 ' MR. CARVIN-Okay.' I'd ask for a motion, then. MOTION TO GRANT REQUESTED EXTENSION FOR AREA VARIANCE NO~ 5-1996 MORGAN VITTENGL, Intr.oduced by David Menter who moved for its adoptiDn,seconded by Fred Carvin: For 60 days. Duly adopted this 27th day of March, 1996, by the following vote: MR. CARViN-No later than June. - 39 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) MR. HILTON-Yes. That would be the June agenda. AYES: Mrs., Lapham, Mr. Green, Mr. Menter, Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Carvin NOES: NONE ABSENT: Mr. Ford MR. HILTON-That's all l have. MR. CARVIN-Okay. I have just one item, the SPCA, the Washington County. I would ask Mr. KarpeLes to,:br ing himself up to speed on that as soon as poss.ible. This was a case where they were looking to locate in a residential area. We have a spl~it .Boattd. It's thr ee ,three. We could not come to a determination, and we are under a 62 day time ,constraint. 1; MR. KARPELES-Have we got the minutes from that meeting? MR. CARVIN~Yes. I would ask you, to check with Marta, because I would like to get that on the agenda first thing for April, and again,l' would ask the Board to develop your arguments either for or against. So that we can ~et this thing resolved. MR. MENTER-Explain to him what we did, because that was unique, I think. MR . CAR V I N - Well, I' m no t qui t e sur e I can ex p 1 a i nit 0 I' S h 0 u 1 d explain it without him reading the mirrutes, because of the prejudicial aspect. Essentially, they w,ereasking:,for a variance. MR. KARPELES-Did you say we have the minutes already? MS. GAGLIARDI-No. I'm working on that right now. MR~~ KARPELESrOkay. MR. MENTER-Just technically speaking what we did was we voted on it. We couldn't come to a determination. We clos,ed the public hear.ing and said, we'll get back. to you with our answer, period. There's no more hearing involved. No more anything. We just need to sit at a meeting and vote. MR. eARVIN-Correct, b~cause I'm not quite sure we're ever going to get, with Mr. Ford being in and out, and I think, who's not going to be here next month? MR. GREEN-I won't be here for any meetings between the 15th and the 21st or 22t\d. .' MR. CARVIN-And I won't be here for any meetings between the 19th and th.eend òf the month, but I would like to try to get this one off the agenda as soon as possibl,e.' So, again, I think, Bob, we may s till have a three, three, Board. MR. GREEN-With six different people here, does my original vote count? MR. CARVIN-I don't think so. MR. GREEN-If I'm not here and I still want to stand by my original vote. MR. CARVIN-No, because we have no motion, and I think what'weneed to do is really, and I would just as soon do it in a public forum that's advertis:ed. In' other words; ryo,u're either for it or against it. Lets try to cometo,¡a cons~nsus here, because we do have to - 40 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) come up with fourvO'tes within the 62 days. I mean, again, if we find that we're going nowhere, we only have six people, and it's pretty adamant', weil, fine, then we' 11 just have to. MS. CIPPERLY-Am I correct, it sounds like you're not going to be here in part of April? MR. CARVIN-That's correct. MS. CIPPERLY-And Bill, because we have until May 22nd to do this vote. MR. .CARVIN-Well, again, what I'm just saying is that I want to try to get this on the agenda so that, I don't know if we just throw an advertisement in the newspaper or how that works, because I just don't want to do this vote in the dark, where we just kind of, you know, like the Supreme Court, send down a decision, and I don't think it's fair for us to discuss this in front of nobody, because it's not a special. closed hearing. MS. CIPPERLY-But you've already closed, the public hearing'. MR. CARVIN-I've closed the public heari'ng. That just means that I don't have to take any public comment. That doesn't mean that I can exclude the public from the process. That's mY interpretation. MR. MENTER-The only way to actually include them is to notice. MS. CIPPBRLY-AIl I'm saying is if the number of members present is a problem,and April doesn't look good, we probably ought to plan on May. MR. CARVIN-There's no guarantee that between now and the middle or end of May that we'l! have a seven member Board, but I just don't want to, you know, have a discussion and we do a vote and there's nobody here. I don't think that that's what the intehtÔ'f thð:t 62 day thing is. I think the 62 days is to allow us to get all the facts and figures or whatever straight in our mind, Sö ~hat, you all have the criteria. You ~ ¡reall exper lenced, Board member s. You know what we have to look at and you just have to come up with the reasons why you're, voting for or against it, and hopefully we'll get four votes one way or the other, and if we don't, we don't. We just keep struggling. I don't know what happens after 62 days, whether ·it's an automati,c process, orit just goes to ,the next court up. MS. CIPPERLY-I'll ask Mark Schachner. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Having said that, are there any other questions, or any other business before the Board? MR.' KARPELES-I made a suggestion~ quite a while ago, that we consider having alternate members. Has that ever gone anywh~re, or has that been investigated? Is'it illegal? MR. CARVIN-I ¡don't know how that would work. I really don't, but it's an interesting concept, but I'm not quite sure it could ever be practical. MR. KARPELES-It seems as though it was designed with the thought that there should be a seven member Board, and we very seldom have a seven member Board. MS. CIPPERLY-I can run that, by Mark, too; see if there's. MR. GREEN-Se~, they'd ha¥e to ge~ ~aid. They'd have to ,get all the ap's, ,they'd have to do ;ail the visitations. - 41 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96)" , MR. 'CARV IN-And then .they may not have any vote. have to go throug.h the same appointment. I mean, they'd MR. GREEN-Everything that we do, I mean, they'd obviously want to be paid for it. MR. KARPELES-Well, I don't see why, I think that whoever was going to be absent would have to give some kind of notice, advanced n.ot,ice if they're going to be absent, and then t,hat person would know that he was going to be' a member that particular night. MRS. LAPHAM-You'd give them your written material, and they'd go out and look at, like we do, and compare~ MR. KARPELES-Yes, just like wei~o,but they would only do it when they knew they were going to be a member. MR. CARVIN-I guess 1 would be more inclined to say that if you can't make the meeting, that you get all the information. You know what the criteria is,at1d without the' p'ublic hearing, I mean, you know, you could put, your input could be put into the record, but maybe not have a vote. MR. KARPELES-Yes, but I think the vote is the important thing. MR. CARVIN-Well, we have to have a quorum. I mean, that's the only thing. MR. MENTER-You!certainly can't voN~j if ,you re not here. MR. CARVIN-And honestly, I enjoy the input. I think that each one of you has some tremendous insight into every application, and I think where we come up short is when we have'four members. We only have those four viewpoints, but as long as we have a quorum, we can legitimately do business, except for when we'have something that's from Warren County that requires a five person vote. MR. MENTER-Yes. I feel real guilty when I don't show up, anyway. ~ r :¡MR. CARVIN-Yes. I guess I'm more concerned 'with the number of applications that we seem td be getting, which is maybe good or bad, but) ,: iif; the Board, ,I mean,' I don't have any'al terna t i ves , folks. It',s either, we had 14 ë:lpplications this month, which means that we could have done two meetings at seven sessions going until, y6u'kflow,certainlya very late hour, or we have'to sp~ead it over three meetings. ~. ¡ MR. GREEN-Do you have to see everybody that applies by that date? I mean ,can you set a limit to ten a'p's a month or somethiing. MR. CARVIN-Well, here's something, that I've been trying to get straight from Staff. ,As I understand it,: the first thing is, we have to determine if it's a complete application, and Staff has been doing that, and making that determination. Once they have deemed a complete ðpplication,then I guess we have 60 days to get it 01'\ an' agenda. ,Is that correct? There: is a time frame that it ha~ to be put on an agenda? MR. HILTON-There is a time frame. in some cases. I'm not sure if it's 45, even, MR. CARVIN-There is a time frame. In other words, once a person pùts an app'li'cation in, that doesn't neces'sa,rily meari that it has to be on April, but there ;ï,s a clock that'Tuns., The question that I've always had,and again,; I 've never really pushed it, is I don't know who detèrmines, ultimately, if we,have a comp'lete application. {is that ,a function of this Board, when 'we look 8<t an a.pplication, lhatfwe' find that ,we don't have all the informa.'tion, do we return - 42 - (Queens bury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) it to Staff and say, we don't have a complete application, which means that we can put this thing off, as it were, or if .it,'s,<you know, a case that Staff makes that decision. Also, as Chairman, I understand that it's!!!y' pr,erogative on how to set the agenda~, and again, that has never been really challenged, and Staff does a,good job putting together the agendas. So, again, I don't know where the grey area and the black and white areas are there. That ~till does, not resolve the fact that we're going to ha:ve, next month, coming up, r>robably a couple o:fl real zingers. From -what I undets tand, we've got probably John Sal vador, I guess, ¡'s coming. So I guess that's, my understanding is that he has submitted. MR. HILTON-We have a Use Variance. MS. CIPPERLY~There's at least one appeal. MR. CARVIN-Yes. one? Is that Salvador, the appeal, or is that another MS. CIPPERLY-No. think. Somebody's still thinking about that one, I MR. KARPELES-When's the Mooring Post coming in? MR. CARVIN-Well, the Mooring Post is under review. ~ i MR. MENTER-Was that the one that was last night? MR. HILTON-At the Planning Board, the appeal? That's the one 1. was thinking of. i1''J MS. CIPPERLY-There was another one. It invoLved a str.ucturethat was replaced on a dock ,; and whether that was, 'J im said.he needed a var iance ,i n order to r ep 1 ace it, and ,I don't know whether that appeal came in today OF not. MR. CARVIN-Because the Mooring Post, I think Staff is looking at that to'see if we have a ,complete application, and, again; I would like to see, I think, a workshop on that, like we did before, and get all the information to all the interested partieS' and conduct at least the SEQRA application to make sure that w,e do have a complete application before we open it up to the public hearing, and I,guessif we don't have all the information, and'if you feel that we don't have a complete application~ then that may be delayed even further , but you have got all the information, and 11 would ask you to review it, and if you find, in either going,through the minu tes or goi ng through the new i nforma t i on, that ther e is informatiön that you st'i 11 are lacking or feel that you are lacking, then I would contact Staff and notify them of that. MS. CIPPERLY-In tha,tcase, I think, they'll be getting that information with their packets., right, for next month, the Mooring Post? MR. HILTON-Again, that',$ up to Jim. I think that we're still trying, to s.ee if it is a complete application. If it isn't complete, what I've heard is that it would probably go in May, in which case, I'm not sure if you would see anything in your packets until May. 'I" MS. CIPPERLY-There was quite a laundry list in your motion. MR. CARVIN-Y,es, I know. .1 've had somè'conversation with,you know, a cursory glance onmy,'part does not indicate that we've got all the questions,answeted' that we had asked, but I have not gone through, myseJf, yet, arid broken down all those items, but again, that's one that's out there, and we will start coming in, I guess, the busy season, as it were, tends ,to be ,you know, right along - 43 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) now. I mean, this i swhen all the decks and the porches and all that sort of stuff start getting applied for, as we get into the consrtruction time frame. MS. CIPPERLY-The only other thing that does bappen in oth~r towns, they dop'Utialimit on the number of a!pplications that the' Board w'ill ha'ndle in a month. MR. CARVIN-Again, I guess' it still boils down to the complete application. I think we've, if there is a clock there that starts ticking once we say, yes, you have a complete application, I think we can limit that, but I don't know what kind of back log we might be creating. I mean, essentially, that's what I'm trying to do, is by the hour. In other words, if we've got five'applications, and we never' know,you know, you never know which one's 'going to bog you down. I mean, I' vecome inhere and thought that, gee whiz, here's a pieceo;f cake,' I mean, we're going to be in and out on this one and all of a sudden, three hours later, we still haven't come to a solution, and mY feeling is1thåt I want to get us out of here no later than 11 o'clock. So if¡,iat 10:301 find that we're 'just n~where, then, fine, we'll opencup.the public hearing, and at 11 0' .c,l,ock" I! m go i ng to ad j OiUfn the meeti ng, and if that works, then fine ,b\¡¡it that $ till doesn't mean that we can do it in two meetings. I mean, it just ba~¡icallymeans that it's putting an awful lot of things on you folks' shoulders. I mean, it used to be we could get everything done in two meetings. It now seems like, like January we had no meetings. MS. CI PPERL Y-AI though those two meet i ngs used to go unt il one o'clock in' the morning~ MR. CARVIN-Yes. Those two meetings used to go quite late. MS. CIPPERI.:.Y-LY'ou're spreading it latetally, now. MR. CARVIN-And it looks like we'll probably be averaging certainly two, if not three meetbngs a month,and again, you know,' it's how you folks want to run this. I mean, ¡if you want to do it in two meetings, let me know and we'll try to do it that way, but as I said, and then when we do three meetings, it becomes a long month, every Wednesday. MR. GREEN-Personally, I would rather have two meetings go until whenever, because I don't care if I go to bed at 11 o'clock or 1 0' clock, but to s'tay out, you know , I've got a'·wi.f e and three kids, one of. them, :1iketwo months old, and' ,to leave them two nights is bad enough, I heal" enough about it now. You go 3' th i rd night, that's just one more night that she's got to find something or deal with it or whatever. So whether ¡it' s11 o'clock or 'two o'clock doesn't t" eall y make any d if'fer ence to me" MR. KARPELES-I'd prefer to limit Vt until 11 o'clock. MR. GREEN-Sure, I would prefer to limit it to eleven, but if it's limit itto eleven and have a third meeting, I'd rather get done with it. MR. KARPELES-I'd rather have the third meeting, myself. MRS~ LAPHAM-I think I would· like the, third meeting, because I have physically active days, and I start literally ,falling. asleep about this point. MR. KARPBLBS- I don 'tth i nk it's fai r to the peopl e to drag it on so late. MR. CARVIN-Chris, what,'·s your feeling? MR. THOMAS-I'd rather be out of here at 11 o'clock, because I have - 44 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) to be in Saratoga at 7:30 in ,the morning. MR. CARVIN-Yes. See, my problem is that I tend to have ~hursday morning meetings, and I'm blown away the next day. I mean, when I get into the office, I mean, after be1:ng here until two o',clock, and I normally get up at five ot five thi,rty,somethin.g like that, I mean, there's nights I've gone out of here and just watched t.v., not even bothered going to bed, because I've felt worse, and so I'm . a strong proponent of the "out of here by elev¡en". MR. GREEN-I have no ~røblem with that, but. MR. CARVIN-I guess the consensus is just to try to do it, if you can make the three meetings, fine, but I know.where are coming from. I mean" three meetings a month is hard. guess Staff has got a' feel for where we want ,to goon guess. I don't know if we've resolved anything. I mean, you all WeU, I th is, I MS. CIPPERLY-II' 11 ask~ Mark ,Schachner some' of those deadl ine questions, and' campleteness. There's a couple of different complet,eness interpretat:ions. One is, we can figure it complete 'enough for YQ.Y. to look at, but thi ngs are obv ious 1 y mi ss ing, but if you find that you can't make a decision because there isni't enough information, that may be the official (lost words). MR. GREEN-In that case, that just bogs !l§, down. MR. CARVIN-Yes. It just delays. MR. GREEN-See, I'd rather not see it, in the first place, and use that time on one we could possibly move on. MS. CIPPERLY-I mean, if all the parts are there, if you call that complete for purposes of reVIew, but, if you find that you don't have enough information, like on the EAF for the Mooring Post. MR. GREEN-But why aren't those figure::¡required? Why aren't those setback figures there on that plan that he submitted? MR. KARPELES-Yes. MR. MENTER-Well, the location's, actually they are required, I mean, technically speaking. MR. GREEN-I'm mean, there was a plan there of where the sign was and where they wer~ going to go, but there were ho figures on it. I would consider that, in my opinion, not complete. MS. CIPPERLY-YoU brought up more meeting, and you made a laundry Board, thought that you needed. things in t,he !:istof things course of ·tha t that you, as a MR. MENTER-Well, that was a different issue, because there was a lot of other things hinging on that. I tt was a lot more intense, but on a day to day basis, the original question, we look at in the light of an application like tonight's with Westwood. It was a very simple thing. MR. GREEN-And ,we took probably a half an hour, trying ;to, figure it out, and we still didn't dome to a, you know. MR. CARVIN-Yes, and if they hadn't pulled the application, it probably would have be,en tabled. I don ' t know, maybe .it mi gh ti,have been voted down. MR. MENTER-The way they were responding,; it would have been voted down. - 45 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 3/27/96) MR. KARPELES-I thought those signs looked pretty, when I came into the meeting. MR. MENTER-It was a nice looking sign, but the two sign thing was a problem. MR . CAR V I N - A 11 rig h t . Well, i f the r e 's no 0 the r bus i n e s s , the n I'll move for adjournment. On motion meeting was adjourned. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED, Fred A. Carvin, Chairman - 46 -