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2010-05-10 SP MTG. #18 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 05-10-2010 MTG #18 855 MTG. #18 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING May 10, 2010 RES. 195 7:00 pm TOWN BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT SUPERVISOR DANIEL STEC COUNCILMAN ANTHONY METIVIER COUNCILMAN RONALD MONTESI COUNCILMAN JOHN STROUGH COUNCILMAN TIM BREWER-ABSENT Sr. Planner Stu Baker Zoning Administrator Craig Brown Supervisor Stec-Call the Meeting to order. Councilman Brewer will be joining us later. DISCUSSION: SIGN REGULATION UPDATE Supervisor Stec-This document has been worked on we were basically of the opinion that we wanted smaller and shorter and show concern toward archecturial type of appearance of signs. If the Board gets through the document tonight, then Stu Baker and Mike Hill will give it a once over and pass it onto the APA for their informal review, and tweak it based on their review. Then set the public hearing and sending it again for their formal participation, the process from tonight may take two and a half months … Sr. Planner Stu Baker-Discussed Policy Issues-Administration and Enforcement will have Craig take the lead on this. Zoning Administrator Craig Brown-Why are we changing the sign code, to make it easier, tougher, shorter, faster, smoother, just so we have a tone going forward. Councilman Strough-Noted that most of the changes came from the PORC Committee. Nicer looking signs, small signs, signs that advertise and don’t scream at you. Supervisor Stec-Process wise we are in favor of smoother, cleaner, faster and result wise shorter smaller, nicer looking. Administrator Brown-Administration of the sign code-now the Director of the Building and Code Enforcement enforces the code, I have been here for twelve years and that has never happened it has always been in the zoning side of the hall where the Zoning Administrator and the Code Enforcement people do that. There are several components; 1. As signs are constructed for wind loads and electrical things they do fall to the building inspector not done under present practice…at present the plans come in and basically does it meet the set backs is it the right size, is there anything offensive as far as advertising on it, if it meets those requirements the sign permit gets issued, I do not believe the structure is reviewed. Suggested that the Building and Codes Dept. take over the signs from setbacks to construction and administer and enforce the sign code. Spoke on a highbred approach where any enforcement person could say here are the rules if they do not agree with the rules or seek a variance then it would go to the Zoning Administrator to get an official determination, use the Building and Codes personnel as enforcement people. Planner Stu Baker-Town Counsel Mike Hill, wants to see a clear path to an appeal of the administrator decision at present it is to the Zoning Board, Counsel Hill is suggesting we take the criteria in the Zoning Code as used by the Zoning Board with Area Variances and copy and paste that to the signs and let the Zoning Board use the same criteria. Want to talk to Dave there are references in the current code that refer to structure and electrical elements, that typically covered under Building and Codes, I suspect a lot of that is covered elsewhere in State Law or in local codes and we don’t need that in this Chapter and keep this as a zoning document. The key is try and make this clear and simple for the public. So they know who is in charge, they know SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 05-10-2010 MTG #18 856 the process, and they know what the appeal process is and it is all laid out clearly. Who will that be, the Building and Codes Dept., Zoning or both. Supervisor Stec-Our current code and draft says it is Building and Codes in practice it has been Zoning Administrator. Zoning Administrator Brown-This is a question for Town Counsel, but could probably give specific authority to the Director of Building and Codes to do the sign code. I know that is not one of his favorite things to do, with no enforcement you will get what you have now. Supervisor Stec-Will try to resolve who will be in charge of this outside of this. Will meet with Dave Hatin and Craig Brown on this issue. Sr. Planner Baker-Changes to the code 104.-1 Purpose and Intent ?Change word in second sentence from maximum to practical ?Change wording on last sentence to: , to preserve the scenic beauty, natural beauty and aesthetic appeal of designated areas 104-2 Definitions ?Eliminate Minor Street … not used in code. ?Property Line B. under Corner Lot use Architectural front as the front ?New Definitions Sign, Digital Or Electronic-Signs whose alphabetic, pictographic, or symbolic informational content can be changed or altered on a fixed display surface composed of electrically illuminated or mechanically driven changeable segments. Includes the following two types. a.Fixed Message Electronic Signs: Signs whose basic informational content has been pre-programmed to include only certain types of information projections, such as time, temperature, predictable traffic conditions or other events subject to prior programming. b.Computer controlled variable message electronic signs: Signs whose information content can be changed or altered by means of computer- driven electronic impulses. Councilman Strough-If we are going to allow electronic signs I think they have to be smaller and why can’t they use blue or another color other than red. We do not want something that distracts the driver. Administrator Brown-The goal was to keep out the huge electronic billboards, John wants to allow electronic signs that don’t change … suggested that the sign cannot be changed more than once a day. The current zoning codes says you cannot have any sign that have movement at all. Councilman Strough-If we allow illuminated signs there should be a level of illumination. Supervisor Stec-Eliminate Electronic signs, those that were placed legally will be allowed to stay for five years. No new electronic signs. SIGN MONUMENT – Free standing, self-supporting sign, supported by columns and a base, which is placed on or at ground level, and not attached to any building wall, fence or other structure. Administrator Brown-We want the Zoning Code in the design guidelines and performance standard to be consistent with the sign code. TEMPORARY SIGN- SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 05-10-2010 MTG #18 857 ?Change from 30 to 60 days ZONE ?Take out ?ZONING DISTRICT-The particular area of the Town as established and depicted on the official Town Zoning Map for which particular regulations governing the area, height, use of buildings or use of land, and other regulations relating to development or maintenance of existing uses or structures, are uniformly applied in that area. Same as Chapter 179 140-3 Signs allowed without permit ?G. change word order to permission ?I. change milk to snack or beverage machines ?K. Signs advertising the sale (1)Take out R Zones add LC, PR,RR,WR,MDR,NR and PUD zoning districts (2)Take out C or M Zones add MS, O,RC,NC, take out HC add CI, CM, ESC, CLI and HI zoning districts A.General provisions ? (1) Change wording to Temporary signs shall be Administrator Brown-I am of the opinion that we probably shouldn’t give everybody the ability to put one up whenever they want it. E. Number of temporary sign permits allowed: ?(1) remove maximum total and insert 60 days F. Remove Councilman Strough-Requested only one active temporary sign and permit per applicant. Board agreed to the change 140-5 General Standards and Regulations ?A. Add or signs permitted under §140-4(B)(3) or §140-6(C)(d)(5) B. Illumination ? Take out over 40 watts…add All exterior sign lighting shall be downcast with cut off fixtures and Signs known as digital billboards electronic display panels and similar LED digital advertising displays shall be prohibited.. ?C. add required setback or Councilman Strough-Questioned attached and perpendicular to building wall signs… Administrator Brown-That would be addressed in the zoning changes for a specific zone. Planner Baker-Noted he will come up with language for the Main Street Corridor. ?I. add advertising message ?J. add -All signs and parts thereof shall be stationary and shall not be allowed to move or simulate movement. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 05-10-2010 MTG #18 858 Administrator Brown-should include costumed persons Board agreed to add language to include costumed persons… ?K. change from 25 to 20% ?L. change from six to two square feet ?N. add other than permitted projecting signs. ?Q. Advertising panels shall meet the following requirements: ?(1) Add or erected. ?(2 Eliminate all but add Expansion of existing advertising panels is prohibited Discussion held regarding billboards that are not used for a length of time… Supervisor Stec-Insert in paragraph 2 any existing advertising panels that have gone unused for a year will be taken down…. Councilman Metivier-How is the date of abandonment established? Administrator Brown-If there is no advertising on there for more than a year you would have to take it down… ?(3) Eliminate C Or M add commercial or industrial, eliminate zone and add zoning district eliminate 25 and replace with 20 feet §140-6 Signs for which permits are required; number; regulations. ?B. add Awnings. Awnings in the MS zoning district shall be subject to the standards noted in §179-7-070(E)(4) of the Code of the Town of Queensbury ?C. Setback (3)Size ?(a) replace 50 with 45 ?(b) replace 25 with 20% add A sign of up to 30 square feet shall be allowed in any case. Buildings which are located (take out the work within or) at a distance of at least 100 linear feet (remove or) change 300 to 200 (4)Placement and number ?(a) remove C or M and add commercial or industrial zoning districts ?(b) add or painted on buildings and remove C or M add in commercial or industrial zoning districts (d) Business complex ?[2] Signs ?[a] remove 50 replace with 45 remove 64 replace with 60 remove be 25 20 feet add not exceed the requirements outlined in 140-6, B,4. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 05-10-2010 MTG #18 859 ?[b] remove 100 add 80 linear feet twice in paragraph add at end square…add at the end up to a maximum, limit of 200 square feet. Councilman Strough-Should the sign size be in some relationship to the size of the store front? Supervisor Stec-in [b] leave in, In any case wall signs shall not exceed 25% of the area of the wall or roof to which they are attached or the lesser of the two. Board agreed to this change [3] Placement of signs within a business complex shall be regulated as follows: ?[a] take out wording, the front add any property line. Take out the rest of the paragraph ?[i] remove ?[ii] remove ?[c] add Directional signs shall only be placed ?(e) Hotels, motels …remove zones and add zoning districts ?(f ) Roadside stands in all, take out zones add zoning districts take out zones ?(g) Apartment complexes in all zoning districts shall be permitted one sign for each entrance on a different street or highway, each sign shall not to exceed 32 square feet. (4) Height (a) [1] remove R Zones add LC, PR,RR,WR,MDR, NR and PUD zoning districts [2] remove C and M Zones add MS, O, RC,NC, remove HC and add CI, CM, ESC, CLI, and HI zoning districts remove 25 and add 20 feet (b) remove the wording or entry level of the building or structure, whichever is lower (5) Off-premises directional sign (a) remove word zone and replace with zoning district and remove the word zone (c) Permits for such signs shall be subject to the approval of the Town Planning Board (d) remove word major and add arterial Planner Baker-Can we move this away from the Planning Board authority and make this administrative much like we do with a two lot subdivision. It seems un-necessary for just an off premise directional sign to send someone back to the Planning Board just to add that. Administrator Brown-If there is a good list of criteria that they have to follow, if they meet the criteria we can do it administratively. Supervisor Stec-Draw something up to make is administrative. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 05-10-2010 MTG #18 860 Councilman Strough-Reword (a) to ready such signs shall not exceed 10 square feet of area per location not to exceed a total of 100 square feet. Board agreed to change §140-7 Previous sign permit approvals and fees and §140-8 Non conforming signs Planner Baker-Cross referencing 140-7 with 140-8 and making the amortization period for compliance five years. Right now it says all signs whether it has a variance or not. If you are going to have a sign code and a set of standards you might as well apply them across the board. People can request a variance from the five years from the Zoning Board. Councilman Strough-Requested a seven year compliance. Supervisor Stec-Spoke about ten years for compliance to phase it in slower and you still can apply for a variance, we need to denote this is signs previous to this adoption. Administrator Brown-Will contact Town Council on how to figure out variances given by the Zoning Board and the ten year compliance issue. Councilman Strough-What is the life of a sign, all signs that get replaced have to meet current code. Supervisor Stec-We could treat the sign code the same as the zoning code. Do we want to sunset everything or something that is offensive to us? We could sunset height or size. Councilman Strough-We are not comfortable with the sunset provision and making everybody change their signage to meet the town code with even ten year period of time, too much of a hardship. We want as we move forward we want to make sure the new people coming in comply with the sign ordinance and when there is a change in uses abide by the new ordinance. Pre- existing people would be allowed to keep what they have. Planner Baker-We have to keep in mind big box retailers generally speaking will recoup the full cost of their development within the first couple years of opening up. Two years out it is already paid for. Supervisor Stec-You can always get a variance, there are going to be instances where the newer ones will have less signage then the older ones. Administrator Brown-If this section stays in anyone new that comes in has to follow these rules, it is just how much of this stuff that is out there right now do you want to change without waiting or a new tenant. Will discuss the variance issue with Town Counsel, can you sunset variances. Supervisor Stec-We don’t necessarily want to say everybody’s sign has to get smaller but if there is a change in the tenant then we do want them compliant we would prefer to do that variance or no variance. Councilman Montesi-Then we are not going to go with the ten years then. No sunset law. Supervisor Stec-If Town Counsel says no if you have a variance then it travels, then even so there is no sunset, if there is a turnover you have to comply. §140-9 Permit procedure; fees B. Fees. Eliminate section add the following Fees provided for by this chapter shall be paid upon the submission of petitions, applications and appeals, in such amount or amounts as shall be established by the Town Board from time to time by resolution and which are incorporated into this chapter by reference. Said fees will be posted in the Building Department on the office Schedule of Fees for the Town of Queensbury Discussion held on returnable fee for temporary signs-increase to $200.00 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 05-10-2010 MTG #18 861 (2) Discussion: Administrator Brown-This is in there as an enforcement tool, usually we just go out and tell them they need a sign permit you have your sign up too soon, we are not going to double fee just because they did not come in and get a sign permit. Board agreed to eliminate this section. C. Change ending to say in accordance with the fee schedule established by the Town Board. §140-10 Construction and maintenance Planner Baker-Will confer with Dave Hatin, questioning if this is already covered under State Building Code…if so will delete. Supervisor Stec-We can leave it in if we want to require it. § 140-11 Penalties for offenses. Planner Baker-Recommended that we use similar language in the revised zoning code Article 17, copy and paste that and apply that here. Agreed to by the Board E. Unsafe and unlawful signs Planner Baker-Recommended that the wording and unlawful be taken out…also remove the wording summarily and without notice and add upon notice to the property owner Agreed to by the Board § 140-13 Appeals st C. Change 1. sentence The Board of Appeals shall hear each appeal within 60 days of filling thereof. Take out after hearing the appeal. Next sentence take out the word immediately. D. change from five to ten days §140-14 Variances The Board of Appeals may vary or alter or adapt the strict application of any of the requirements of this chapter in the case of exceptional physical conditions (eliminate the rest of the sentence) No variance in the strict application of the provisions of this chapter shall be granted by the Board of Appeals unless it finds that there are special circumstances or conditions applying to the land or a sign and not applying generally to land or signs in the neighborhood – remove the rest of the paragraph. Add criteria from area variances will be inserted from the zoning code. Supervisor Stec-This is the first time in thirty four years that we are making significant changes for the signing ordinance. Councilman Montesi-Suggested that Mr. Barker or Mr. Brown go to a Zoning Board meeting and review the goals of this sign ordinance. Supervisor Stec-Two large issues left; 1. Sunset language 2. We have to figure out code administration. RESOLUTION ADJOURNING TOWN BOARD MEETING RESOLUTION NO. 195, 2010 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 05-10-2010 MTG #18 862 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. John Strough WHO MOVED FOR ITS ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mr. Ronald Montesi RESOLVED , that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby adjourns its Town Board Meeting. th Duly adopted this 10 day of May, 2010 by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Metivier, Mr. Montesi, Mr. Strough, Mr. Stec NOES: None ABSENT: Mr. Brewer Respectfully, Miss Darleen M. Dougher Town Clerk-Queensbury