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2006-03-13-SP MTG9 629 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-13-2006 MTG. #9 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING MTG.#9 MARCH 13, 2006 RES. 153 7:00 p.m. TOWN BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT SUPERVISOR DANIEL STEC COUNCILMAN ROGER BOOR COUNCILMAN RICHARD SANFORD COUNCILMAN JOHN STROUGH COUNCILMAN TIM BREWER EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT MARILYN RYBA SUPERINTENDENT OF WATER BRUCE OSTRANDER TOWN HISTORIAN MARILYN VANDYKE DIRECTOR OF WASTEWATER MIKE SHAW 1.0KARNER BLUE BUTTERFLY PLAN – CT MALE Jen Reardon and John Munsey Executive Director Marilyn Ryba-Noted this project started in 2003. The last consensus was that we have protocol set up so that developers know what they have to do when they come in front of the Planning Board. The second goal was to support the State and Federal recovery efforts for Karner Blue. We also want an overlay district that looks at protecting the land base and where we have Karner Blue right now. We have a Resource Management Plan that outlines, the steps that need to be taken when a developer comes in front of the Town. The Overlay Dist. will identify for zoning purposes some of the priority areas where you can find not only habitat butterfly and possible areas for recovery efforts as well. We are looking at a zoning overlay and some kind of land dedications. PRESENTATION BY– CT MALE John Munsey-CT Male Jennifer Reardon-Lead Scientist on this project Mr. Munsey-Project history – Commissioned in 2003 and we are still under our authorized fee that was established. The scope has changed significantly but we are still within our scope, depending on what direction the town wants to go in the future we may need to come back and ask you for more money if we do additional work scope. We have prepared a draft management plan, it went through public review we got comments from fish and wildlife services from DEC, made modifications to the plan and then right now we have a draft resource guide and the overlay district language are the two documents that we have right now in draft form. Seqra will not kick in until you finalize an action. The Town of Queensbury is in a unique position that they actually have home to an endangered species the Karner Blue Butterfly that is protected at the Federal and State level. It is basically the Queensbury sand plains formation is a unique resource that we are looking at. The Town has a unique opportunity for stepping forward and trying to protect an endangered species, perhaps further than the endangered species act which is very procedural. The Endangered Species Act was passed in 1973. They are coming out with studies now to evaluate the effectiveness of the Endangered Species Act because every five years or so Congress has to re-authorize these acts. The publications that we are starting to see right now on the Endangered Species Acts are promoting the successes of the Endangered Species Act. In terms of graphs that show population as a function of time and how those populations have increased as a function of time. So, despite the fact that the Town hasn’t taken action, you have under the context of the Endangered Species Act and the Karner Blue Butterfly habitat although it is still a threatened habitat has actually improved as a function of time. 630 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-13-2006 MTG. #9 Councilman Boor-So, in a strange way no action has been ok. Mr. Munsey-There is a lot of merit to the no action alternative, there is protection right now that is afforded under the endangered species act for the Karner Blue Butterfly. That is a tough debate, do you need extra protection or is that enough protection as it is. That is really up to the Town to do. Because of the uniqueness of this resource if let unattended the entire Queensbury Sand plains unit would basically revert to a non habitat formation. With tree growth and preventing fires from occurring within the Town of Queensbury there is no regeneration, fire is an important component of the regeneration of this eco system. Councilman Boor-A lot of the habitat is found where it is not necessarily fires but where they trim because of power lines and that in and of itself maintains the sand environment. What portion of the power in Queensbury is habitat is the more natural areas. Mr. Munsey-Most of it is power lines, the Paradise Beach Location is the one exception. Councilman Brewer-I think the awareness at the Planning Board level has enhanced the growth of the lupine and therefore the existence of the Karner Blue. Our Planning Board is aware of it and steer people away from it and whatever they do to try and enhance it. We haven’t done anything but we have done something. Councilman Sanford-The irony is man makes the environment for the plant as well as the butterfly and the absence of which the butterfly would be more endangered. Mr. Munsey-The butterfly is dependent upon man now to some extent to protect it. Executive Director Ryba-The whole idea of the recover effort and the recover efforts by the State is to try to get this off the endangered species list. Right now the Planning Board has gone under the operation of we want to see protection first, we want to see avoidance first. Ms. Jennifer Reardon-Information that is in the resource guide- provides guidance for the Endangered Species Act and it is intended to complement the overlay district and provide information on the butterfly and Queensbury’s sand plains unit it also talks about different protection and mitigation strategies. (gave a slide presentation) Showed the conceptual land preservation model the preferred model for restoring the Karner Blue Habitat, it is called beads on a string, most of the habitat is on the direct line corridor, as you would acquire more land you would get areas of habitat that would be able to connect to the electric line. Mr. Munsey-Not necessarily acquires land but cause it to become part of the over all mitigation plan through the Planning Boards effort. Executive Director Ryba-Some of the land that was provided as mitigation, where the power lines are, was cleared by DEC, fencing was put around it by Mr. Schermerhorn to keep out ATV’s there nectar plants that are to be provided by a neighboring development and DEC did put in some lupine plants in there, they have taken and DEC is really excited they believe that they will probably see some, when they do their counts this year that they are hoping to see something. Ms. Reardon-Most of the habitat is in the linear corridors, as you get more mitigation areas set up and more habitats in one central area that could use the corridor to connect to other habitats and over all help the Karner Blue population. Councilman Boor-Is the blue Lupine endangered itself? Ms. Reardon-No, I do not believe so. 631 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-13-2006 MTG. #9 Councilman Boor-We do not have a plan but I am wondering if at some point in time its important signage or educational aspects of making the public area that, that is not a flower to pick? Mr. Monsey-That is an excellent point, one of the things that the State is doing in the Albany Pine Bush and the Wilton Wildlife preserve is fostering the creation of the seed bank and making it available through local nurseries. Public education is kind of a critical aspect of moving forward. Executive Director Ryba-Bob Keenan our IT Director will tell you our Karner Blue Website gets the most hits than on anything on our entire web site. I worked with an Eagle Scout went all along Sherman Avenue went door to door with information for people, as much as the Planning Board and people like to see tree buffers around their property what really needs to happen is we need to make sure there is some open space and then one of the biggest things that happens is people think they are doing something good for the environment they take all their grass clippings and dump in the back of the property and that is what is covering up the lupine, the Eagle Scout was trying to educate people on don’t put your grass clippings here because you could be destroying something that is an Endangered Species. Ms. Reardon-There are three ways to go, 1. Do a survey of the property that could be done any time of the year, either not finding any potentially suitable habitat but it could be restored. You could use it as a set aside area for a conservation easement or it could be used as mitigation for another project. The third way this could go you could find a suitable habitat area that might have Lupine. The next step would be to conduct a survey for Lupine this would have to be done during when it is flowering. If you did fined Lupine, at this point you would probably want to contact DEC and Fish and Wildlife to get them involved and you would have to conduct a butterfly survey which has to be done while the butterflies are out. It is short time period to do this. Depending on that you would either have an unoccupied site with Lupine and no butterflies or you could find an occupied site which do have butterflies. If you went thorough this and you did not find Lupine you could still possibly store the site back. Right now the Endangered Species Act really just protects the area where you find Lupine and the butterflies. Mr. Munsey-The survey protocol could be used if you wanted to survey areas of the Town just to characterize them as how important might they be for future protection of the species as well. The context of this survey is from the applicant’s perspective. An applicant comes in wanting subdivision, wanting site plan approval from the Planning Board and these survey protocols are intended to be for the applicant to follow. Ms. Reardon-Protection measurers, we have spoken on the Endangered Species Act which protects occupied sites, there are other things that can be done, eliminating pesticide use, in areas near occupied and unoccupied sites. Councilman Boor-Questioned if Niagara Mohawk or National Grid use pesticides? Mr. Munsey-They used them but in very, very, small quantities in a seasonal basis pursuant to protocols that are in place that are approved by DEC Fish and Wildlife. Ms. Reardon-Restricting yard waste near the habitat areas, ATV use a problem especially along the electric lines, limiting road crossing of existing power lines, public education is really important. Mr. Munsey-The people that live around these resources are perhaps the best resources that the Town is going to have in terms of enforcement or at least be knowledgeable of activities that are going on. It would be much better to educate the people that live around this resource and I think they are interested in it anyhow because they live there as opposed to hiring somebody to enforce it. Ms. Reardon-Mitigation measurers - preservation of land – financial donation – donation of land, selective clearing-opening up an area for lupine – protection of existing lupine patches 632 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-13-2006 MTG. #9 Mr. Munsey- Spoke on impact fees as a mitigation measure. That would be a town wide assessment on that. Ms Reardon-Reviewed the overlay district, to be in compliance with the ESA, outlines what survey protocols have to be done, outlines restrictions, also appropriate mitigations to be used. Mr. Munsey-The overlay district is a zoning change, public review would have to be part of the overlay district language. Ms Reardon-Reviewed two Town Subdivisions Schermerhorn’s which had a occupied lupine patch near it, they avoided it in their site design, they also set aside a two acre area and planted lupines. Executive Director Ryba-Noted that the plantings have to be the wild blue lupine that is what the nurseries are facilitating right now. Mr. Munsey-National Grid has plans to do within their natural gas and electrical infrastructure for Lake Albany, Sand Plains unit they intend on doing future surveys of the Karner Blue on their properties in the future. That is a requirement under the endangered species act. They plan on doing surveys during the spring and summer. The Critical Environmental Area is something that is part of the Environmental Conservation Law of New York State it really doesn’t in my opinion afford much protection at all by itself, in combination with an overlay district it could be perhaps more effective but it would prevent Sub-title C and D hazardous waste facilities from coming in a site but I do not think you need that. It does elevate actions that do take place in Critical Environmental Areas a Type I action under SEQRA, which would mean that you would have to do more of an expanded part one and expanded EAF in order to properly put that issue to rest or do an EIS on the applicant stage. The overlay district in combination with a resource guide is what we believe in working with the Town for this effort, if the Town Board wishes to further protect this habitat we think that is the best mechanism to move forward is by the overlay district language. The habitat conservation plan that is a Herculean effort, it is very expensive it is a decades long type study. There is no need for the Town to get in that business. The DEC and the Fish and Wildlife and National Grid together with the Wilton Wildlife Preserve the Albany Pine Bush Preserve are going to be taking active leads in the habitat conservation plan for the overall glacial lake Albany, Sand Plains unit which you are a part of. They are trying to establish viable Karner Blue Butterfly and Frosted Elfin populations within these units. They have not identified Queensbury as being the target for one of those viable populations, but I think it is probable that it could be at least one of those viable populations could be in the Queensbury Sand Plains unit. Councilman Boor-Does an overlay zone have different layers of densities? When you establish a district how do you determine the boundaries? Mr. Munsey-That goes back to the map of zone 1,2,3 that is the overlay district that we are proposing. Councilman Boor-It is expansive. Councilman Brewer-It would essentially be the whole Town? Mr. Munsey-That is the way we have it right now it could be shrunk down in trying to identify areas. The draft language needs public input and scrutiny. Executive Director Ryba-The way that is established is because that is actually the Queensbury Sand Plains Unit which the DEC did their study of soil and open lands.. Mr. Munsey-soils and ecology and the vegetative characteristics of the site. 633 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-13-2006 MTG. #9 Executive Director Ryba-The Wilson Court area, is twelve acres of land that can be utilized and go out from there. There is an opportunity to change the boundaries a little bit. Councilman Boor-The species itself how far will it travel to find a small patch of lupine? Mr. Munsey-Two to three hundred meters is the general range. Councilman Boor-If you have an isolated patch even though it is blue lupine, native blue lupine it is not necessarily conducive to the butterfly if it is no where near any corridor of lupine. Executive Director Ryba-Because of the endangered species act if there was habitat there that is where you mitigation could come in and where the land bank comes in that is already available. There is also the threatened Frosted Elfin species that is still under SEQRA. Mr. Munsey-That is a State listed species. Councilman Boor-In a kind of do nothing atmosphere, although we have done some things but not actively, the population is sustained and actually growing a little bit, so is there going to be a measure or a threshold where you say hey how much more of this do we need, when is enough Karner Blue enough? Mr. Munsey-When the viable populations have been made in New York State they are targeting four viable populations, the Wilton Wildlife Preserve is going to get one the Albany Pine Bush Preserve and the Saratoga Airport are the three that are really put out there. But there isn’t a fourth? Councilman Boor-It begs the question do we want to be the fourth? Councilman Strough-The general statement may not be holding true for Queensbury, because Queensbury is developing and I have seen a lot of Blue Lupine go. Executive Director Ryba-At lot of land belonging to the City of Glens Falls in the zone one area noted that there are habitat and butterfly on the logging roads. Councilman Strough-Off Dixon Road in the watershed property there was a field over near the old firing range this field was huge one or two acres of Blue Lupine last year I checked it out again, it is dying out tremendously the white pines are growing up there is no mitigation plan, no habitat conservation plan. I was big on the conservation plan. Mr. Munsey-To summarize, under the current situation the endangered species act, under the oversight of DEC and US Fire and Wildlife provides for strict protection for a small percentage of the resource, you have got to have Lupine and you have to have either Frosted Elfin or Karner Blue either on or very close to your site. If you do not have that the Endangered Species Act really does not provide any additional protection beyond that. Councilman Sanford-It becomes discretionary at that point in terms if the Town wants to go beyond the letter of the law is what I think I am hearing. We do not necessarily do the whole process of what if’s, what we are obligated to do is to recognize where there is habitat. Mr. Munsey-It is a legal requirement in the Endangered Species Act. The converse of that is with the overlay district or with the Habitat Conservation Plan mechanisms it would give the Town discretion above and beyond the Endangered Species Act and more flexibility in the future. Councilman Brewer-Do we really want to have that? Councilman Sanford-That is what we have to decide. 634 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-13-2006 MTG. #9 Mr. Munsey-It is up to the Town and the Town Planning Board. We will give you our best perspective of the pros and cons of each approach, but it boils down to a town issue. When you do decide to do something you have to make sure you comply with SEQRA. Councilman Strough-Lets not make this black and white, that you have either an overlay plan or habitat conservation plan, and if you go in this direction it is going to be expensive. Now, you can have an overlay plan with some elements of a conservation plan in it that is not going to be expensive. It is not an either or situation. Mr. Munsey-There is a lot of similarities between the Habitat Conservation Plan Mechanism as well as an overlay district in terms of what actually would you do in the field to protect things. I think that completes our presentation. Councilman Strough-Before we started all this Chris Round and I were talking about the Karner Blue, and put down some of my thoughts on what I think we ought to move so, I put together a kind of draft of ideas, this was back in 2003. (Passed out draft to Town Board Members) Third paragraph on first page-Then these kinds of environments should be assessed as to their viability. Low potential, these might be small areas not linked no current butterflies and then we might have high potential areas which might be larger areas, they could be linked and the existence of the butterfly had been verified by survey and the location says to focus on the projects geographic scope and specific target areas. This effort is to develop and implement a program that would prevent intentional takes and further degradation of the Karner Blue and Frosted Elfin Habitat. Also, an important component of this program would be the implementation of an outreach program to educate the public at large that the about the importance of these eco systems and what they can or should do to deserve and enhance these habitats. That is kind of the introduction. I go on to describe on page 2 a little bit of the towns history and I go on to describe the Karner Blue Butterfly and Nature Conservancy, Global Rank ok, and I do go on to talk about the Frosted Elfin and its Nature Conservancy, Global Rank. I show you pictures of the various stages of the Frosted Elfin and location of that around the United States. Then I go and talk about the habitat itself. Councilman Sanford-When it metamorphosis into a Butterfly from a caterpillar how long does it live? Ms. Reardon-As a butterfly a couple of weeks, as a caterpillar about three to four weeks. Councilman Strough-Noted on page two, last paragraph, there are at least two hatchings of Karner Blue Butterfly eggs each year the first group of caterpillars hatch from April to early May from eggs that were laid the previous year. About mid May the caterpillar pupa and the adult butterfly emerge in their cocoon like by the end of May or early June. These adults mate and laid their eggs in June on or near wild Lupine Plants. The eggs hatch in about one week and the caterpillars feed for about three weeks and these caterpillars pupa in the summer second generation of adult butterflies appear some time late July or the beginning of August. These adults lay eggs that will not hatch until the following spring. What should be the habitat conservation philosophy as I look at it, and I look at it similar to what John presented as there are going to be two types of zones. Those with low potential and those of high potential. On page 5 I elaborate, Now in zones where survey have identified the Karner Blue Butterfly in a viable habitat I said you should have an aggressive management to protect and enhance the butterfly and maintain long term habitat viability that are in the target and focus areas. Designate the area, identify with signage, you could do more formal things. There are other things I listed that you could do to be a little bit more proactive in protecting the species a little bit more comprehensive. Because it is a bead and string, if the beads go away it is not going to make any difference. The beads do go away, everything grows up the white pines grow up the sign doesn’t come in the Lupine goes away so does the butterfly. Also showed examples of signage that could be used. Councilman Sanford-But, if Queensbury remained undeveloped from the French and Indian War era, there would likely not be a habitat for the Blue Lupine or the butterfly correct? 635 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-13-2006 MTG. #9 Mr. Munsey-I would say there would be very little. Councilman Sanford-Man through development has created the habitat that is now being called endangered. Mr. Munsey-It is because of the land management approaches of electrical transmission lines that the Karner Blue Butterfly population is as high as it is in the Town of Queensbury. Councilman Sanford-If some of the Board Members had their way, from prior discussions in the last month or so, when we had all our power lines underground then we would not have a habitat either. Mr. Munsey-No, you get a lot of trees to grow over pipes in the ground. Councilman Strough-The next handout is some of the thoughts that I had that I did not see in the first plan that I would like to see and again I will leave that for you to read. Executive Director Ryba-A couple of things in terms of where to go next. As Mr. Munsey mentioned public input then the questions was do you want go in from of the PORC committee? Two thoughts, one is that we have a season coming up in May where developers will be coming forward, we may have impact we may not, and the survey protocol will have to be moved forward. That is how this started was to put together a protocol for developers. We still do not have that protocol in place. Here are the options, try to move forward so we can have a protocol in place for this spring. The plan is in place I can provide you with an overlay plan and the resource, they are both draft, they include some of these items that Mr. Strough has outlined as well and see about getting the public hearing where you want to go next. Whether or not you want a generic environmental impact statement is another thing. The study could act as your environmental review, you could fill a long form EAF and you could go from there. This is where we got stuck is how you manage it, how you keep it going. Even a management entity like the Nature Conservancy or anyone who wants to manage it they need the money to be able to manage it. So, the impact fee, if you do an impact fee you definitely need to go in the generic environmental impact statement as your rational for your impact fee so you do not get challenges from a legal perspective. So, the option trying to move forward with it separately from the Planning Ordinance Review Committee work with the Comprehensive Plan and the Zoning Ordinance or if you want to move to have it go with the Planning Ordinance Review Committee and the Zoning Ordinance, understand that there will be a whole cycle of time once again it won’t be a protocol in place. Supervisor Stec-Which has been the case for many, many years. Executive Director Ryba-And it may happen again even with the best intentions of trying to move forward now as this discussion here shows there are differences of opinion and then when you get the public opinion involved too, you get even more. Supervisor Stec-I do not think it is feasible that you will have this completed by May and I think I would prefer option B to move it coincides with everything else we have going on if we miss a year we miss a year. From what we have heard so far it has not been the end of the world that we have taken no action, some good has come from taking no action. Councilman Sanford-I think going back to the Planning Board I am only speaking for myself because I cannot read into the minds of what the other Planning Board members were thinking. We wanted to make sure that we were compliant with DEC and other laws regarding the Endangered Species. At that time, I think really what our thinking was we were not interested in speculating on whether or not there could be a reclaiming of potential habitat but we were concerned about if in fact the habitat existed and there was species involved that we wanted to certainly protect and preserve. We weren’t interested in saying this is a sandy part of property and potentially it could, we did not want to go to that extreme which I think you mentioned as a option. Again you better 636 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-13-2006 MTG. #9 check with the current Planning Board on this because I am only going back in my memory. We were not interested in going the extra distance but we certainly did not want to say ok to a developer go ahead and build and do what you need to do knowing that you may be destroying the plant and the potential for the breeding and what have you with the butterfly. So, we did not want to protect that aspect of it but we weren’t as interested in reclaiming if you will the habitat. I think that, that made sense at that time and it still makes sense. Executive Director Ryba-When you think about it a little bit further and I think that my recollection with some planning board members at least was make the developer go thorough the effort of preserving this or protecting it, and then lies fallow and then it is gone where is it there is some work done that connects all of the pieces of requiring a developer not only to protect it but to make sure that everything they have gone through to protect it can continue. Councilman Strough-I talked to Kathy O’Brien today and I said I am going to make the effort to try and make more comprehensive and more of a management plan rather than a little bit here and a little bit there and we have run into this in other aspects of our Town development we haven’t done things in a comprehensive nature and what happens is little by little it gets destroyed so you end up with not much. We do not necessarily have to go in my direction which is on the other end we might be someplace in between a plan and an overlay. Executive Director Ryba-In terms of where you want to go right now am I hearing that you want to have this information forwarded to the Planning Ordinance Review Committee and to our Consultants who are working on the Comprehensive Plan to incorporate into whatever plan or Councilman Sanford-What I would like to see this Board have is two or three whatever it is scenarios with physical impacts in terms of what it is going to cost the town to go in A,B,C, or whatever it is and then I think this board needs to wrestle with those decisions and then go to the full committee and say hey we have decided that this is the level of fiscal commitment that we think is prudent to expend now we would like your opinion as to what the best bang for the buck would be. Councilman Boor-I agree with that because even taking no action costs money. We do have to see periodically if the population is still there or not so somebody is going to have to go out and do surveys whether or not you are doing anything. I just do not know how much money you want to spend on a butterfly, entomologists would take exception to that. I would like to preserve the Karner Blue but I am not sure how many thousands or hundreds of thousand of dollars we want to put toward it. Councilman Sanford-I was concerned with the original study and the money that we were talking about the a few years ago with CT Male and I am still concerned about it so I would like the financial things laid out and then leave it to people more of the planning type of people to decide the best course of action given practical budgetary constraints. Mr. Munsey-I do not see any costs involved in continuing what you are doing now. Councilman Boor-Somebody has to pay to go out and see if the population is still there. Mr. Munsey-That is the applicant is doing that. Councilman Boor-How did we come up the assertion that the population is doing well and maintaining and actually growing, somebody had to go out and measure. Councilman Brewer-DEC monitors that every year. Supervisor Stec-I think it is very safe to say that we don’t expect or want you to get, try to get anything done by this growing season in May. The number one question you need answered tonight and then perhaps in front of saying let PORC look at this as they moving forward with the Comprehensive Land Use in front of that we need to lay out 637 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-13-2006 MTG. #9 some of the dollars and cents because I am not sure that tax payers money is going to be well spent spinning our wheels in the mud on a butterfly. I want bang for the buck I do not want to throw a ton of money at something that five years from now we are going to say you know what that was a waste of money because it did not work. Councilman Sanford-We want to be legally compliant, that is where the Planning Board ran up against the wall. But on the other hand we want to know what to then know what the options are beyond that and right now we have a range here but we cannot make an intelligent decision unless we know of the fiscal impacts so that is what we need. 2.0RECREATION COMMISSION PROJECTS Recreation Director Steve Lovering- ? Hovey Pond Park Introduced Jim Miller the Landscape architect showed the master plan for the park. Phase I approved in 2004 which was not done as of yet, deal with the entryway, improved entrance for both park and pedestrian. Phase II – deals with the issues of fixing the run off in the pathways, the walkways into the wetlands as well as the park benches Councilman Boor-What is on there that is not physically there now? Architect Miller-The extension of the parking lot, we are going to widen the driveway entrance and relocate the sign, construct a new base, new fencing, improving the entrance area where the monument is. Phase II is resurfacing the entire trail, it was be graded and compacted and then two to three inches of crushed stone. Develop additional seating areas and viewing areas over the pond, improve storm drainage. Councilman Boor-Questioned if there was going to be a new gazebo? Architect Miller-It is still here but there are things on the master plan that are more long range and that included a larger gazebo and additional wall, constructed new entrances into the garden area. We look at pricing out lighting, redoing the benches and creating new seating areas, new trash receptacles also included clearing and improving access to the pond. There was an idea of an aeration fountain. That is in a future phase. Director Lovering-Re: Gazebo The Commission felt the price tag we got on it, it was an expensive gazebo and we felt that since we had just put this little gazebo in by the walkways that would suffice for now. Councilman Sanford-How much are you planning on spending and to do what? Architect Miller-These are the plans that are close to going out to bid for construction, we th are hoping to go to bid this spring and try to get this work done by the 4 of July. The drawing identifies the entry area and we talked about the seating area and resurfacing all the trails. There will be a new fence gated, so this will be closed so no vehicle can get down in then it will be fenced all the way around. Councilman Boor-Questioned the number of cars that can be parked with the addition? Architect Miller-27 Total Councilman Strough-What will the fencing be? Architect Miller-We have got to look at that, right now it is post and rail Director Lovering-We are looking for something a little more maintenance free. 638 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-13-2006 MTG. #9 Councilman Sanford-You are talking seventy six thousand dollars for this, right? Director Lovering-Yes. Councilman Sanford-I just want to make sure that you are looking at this in terms for the best bang for the buck, it is taxpayers money, hopefully all these things are being priced out and competitively priced with other various vendors and contractors and what have you and it is not just well we want to have this done and so we go ahead and move forward in doing it there could be pretty significant price differentials. Architect Miller-We will have to go to public bid, so it is going to be advertised as a public bid because we will have the construction drawing and complete spec like we have done on other projects. Director Lovering-This is the ground work that we need in order to go out to bid and get the lowest bid. Councilman Boor-Essentially it is nice as a Board Member to have an idea of exactly what we are talking about so that when the public queries you on something oh yea, we are adding additional parking, we are redoing all the pathways, we got a potential for a gazebo at a later day, we have got the seawall that goes a long way. In any project it is helpful to come to a workshop. Councilman Sanford-In terms of professional services, Jim, you seem to be very much part of this project and yet you are not a town employee and in fact one of the concerns that I had at the Town Board Meeting we had this one and then we had the Gurney Lane one that followed it and you were also involved with that and you are also involved with the River Side Park and Nature Preserve Project. In terms, you are a landscape architect I believe and again I would also feel that we have to in order to do our proper due diligence make sure we are getting the value there as well, has that been done to this point? Director Lovering-Did we go our for RFP’s for Jims work we did not, just following the protocol for that the threshold for being required is twenty thousand dollars and since we do not reach that there was no requirement to go out for an RFP. It has been our experience that when we have gone out for RFP’s for bigger projects, Jim is thousand and thousands of dollars less than some of the competitors that put in for RFP’s. Councilman Strough-That was brought up at the Commission, they said Jim is right there and any time they want Jim he will show up he is very accommodating. Working with other engineers and design architects, nobody has been as accommodating as Jim has, he is not necessarily charging for it, his bills are the lowest bids. Director Lovering-Jim it typically involved and has intiment knowledge of a lot of our projects and has over the years has done a lot of pro bono work for us sort he knows the history of some of the pieces of property that we have developed over the years which is nice. That is the commissions comfort level with Jim’s work. Councilman Sanford-Then Jim must have presented you with a proposal. Director Lovering-Absolutely. Councilman Sanford-Asked for a copy. Director Lovering-yes. Mr. Miller-Sometimes what happens on these projects like on the Ridge Jenkinsville Project then we had a master plan that went out for an RFP, and I was low and after you do the master plan they wanted to do the first phase which was softball fields out fields and fence. Since I had done the master plan work it was a time savings and continuity. Councilman Sanford-Again, I think we have to treat government a lot different than we would if we were a private business which means that we have to provide other 639 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-13-2006 MTG. #9 competent people an opportunity to compete for the business, it is just a personal feeling of mine, it is probably not law. If we get into the habit of just relying on the same people doing it after awhile I think the public can question it in terms of whether or not we are doing the best job for the taxpayers. I want to make sure that the parameters are all in proper alignment in terms of what you are charging per hour and what the scope of the project is. I for one will be happy to review all of that. Director Lovering-Gurney Lane - The funding on Gurney Lane was approved a couple of weeks ago. The Commission got together at a planning committee meeting and at a regular Board Meeting to talk about some of the things they would like to see Gurney Lane develop into over the course of twenty years. We gave Mr. Miller a wish list, some of the things have been mentioned by the public and others general ideas. Mr. Miller will sort though those ideas. This is a long term project through the summer meeting and looking at different plans and designs. Will keep the Town Board informed as this moves on. Riverside – This site is accessible by Division Road … There are a lot of existing ATC trails that we are going to utilized for the public for walking and mountain biking and skiing. The goal is to open up a park entrance signage a roadway approximately sixty eight acres. Councilman Brewer-When you talk about Hudson Pointe, Faith Bible and Native Textiles parcels are somewhere near two hundred and fifty acres. Councilman Boor-Where are we with the City? Supervisor Stec-The Mayor has not committed to anything but he knows that there is an interest here. He has indicated a willingness to work with us on that property. Councilman Sanford-Questioned the time line on these projects? Director Lovering-The Commission would like to get started on it this year and concentrate on the Faith Bible Property, we have a plan to bridge Clendon Brook… Councilman Boor-Are we going to encourage or discourage motorized vehicles? Director Lovering-Discourage. 3.0Sewer Usage Fees – Mike Shaw Supervisor Stec-Mike would like us to be on one common boiler plate user rate. Director Shaw-Ultimate goal to consolidate sewer districts, we have seven right now. The first step is to get the O&M rates somewhere near similar or exact in each district. What direction should we go, one flat rate pre thousand gallons for each district or would you rather see a commercial and residential rate? Councilman Brewer-I would rather have a commercial and residential rate. Director Shaw-The sewer district started out as the Quaker Road Sewer Dist. the Board felt it was built as a commercial use, there would be two rates, the commercial would pay a higher rate…the same with Hiland Park, the other districts have one flat rate for everybody. Noted that the tax rate pays for the bonding, interest and fiscal agent fees. Reviewed history of how rates were formed. Supervisor Stec-Requested that Director Shaw bring back to the Board the figures for one O&M rate vs. split Residential/Commercial rates… Director Shaw-It will be close to $4.00 per thousand gallons. Councilman Sanford-Requested a report on fees in other municipalities. 640 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-13-2006 MTG. #9 Director Shaw-Noted that Central Queensbury has been losing money over the last few years on O&M, fund balance has been used. Supervisor Stec-Requested figures on one O&M Rate, figure on Residential and Commercial and third a report on the fees in other municipalities. Councilman Boor-Questioned when this would implemented? Director Shaw-Once I know which direction to go in, any time a rate is changed it is done by Board Resolution. Councilman Strough-Glens Falls monitors what goes into their system from us, a meter system, we use the water usage to determine sewer usage what is the difference? Director Shaw-We discharge much more sewer to the City of Glens Falls than we bill through the meters. Councilman Strough-Noted in the Hiland Park area when there is a rainfall event there is a spike in the sewer, suggesting something is happening at that end. Director Shaw-Something is happening at Hiland but Hiland piece of the pie is not that drastic, the larger spikes are in the Quaker Road Sewer spoke to the Board on the last major storm and the jump in usage…spoke on infiltration of the system. Supervisor Stec-Requested that Director Shaw get back to the board with their requested information. 4.0Water Department Energy Audit - Bruce Ostrander Water Supt. Bruce Ostrander- This is not in the current budget item, spoke on replacing vs. refurbishing low and high lift drives…due to the expense of the current drivers would like to start moving away from that particular driver and purchase a more generic driver…would like to start with the low lift pumps… Councilman Sanford-Requested a report on new vs. repair drivers with a time line including maintenance. Water Supt. Ostrander-Noted that would be difficult because of the unknown cost of replacement…need a consultant to do this. We need an energy audit to help us in this matter and also to save us money. Supervisor Stec-Questioned the cost on the audit? Water Supt. Ostrander-We have not gotten that far yet. Councilman Sanford-We would encourage you to get the price for us and then if it seems reasonable we would probably go in that direction, based on your recommendation. Water Supt. Ostrander-What this process does, there is a list of engineers, this is like hiring off the State Contract, basically no one does FPR’s for this, the Budget Officer has checked on this through the State Comptroller, hiring one of these firms is just like going on State Contract. There are two firms on the list that we have done business with Barton and Loguidice, and O’Brien and Gere. Supervisor Stec-We would be hiring a firm to do the energy audit and that will have a cost and associated with that is going to be an energy savings. Councilman Boor-Would they be looking at the potential motors or drives that we are considering replacing? Water Supt. Ostrander-Some of our questions I am not sure they will be able to answer. 641 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-13-2006 MTG. #9 Unknown-Spoke on alternatives such as hooking into the dam for electricity, noted the large exit fees which are in effect until 2011. 5.0Meadowbrook Road Water Line Replacement Options – Bruce Ostrander Water Supt. Bruce Ostrander-CT Male has done the engineering – 1. replace Meadowbrook Road, Cline, Sergeant, Wilson just the way it is there is no pipe past Cline going down Meadowbrook Road there are approximately five houses that the services were put in later, that is one reason why we want to extend the line 2. Another reason, either now or in the future by the triangle there is a sewer easement we are thinking to do a water line across to do away with the dead end on Ridge Road and Meadowbrook Road. There are two scenarios 1. Extend Meadowbrook Road with a hydrant on the end 250’ and put a T in so that we could put that line across at another time when DOT is doing work on Ridge Road, either hire it done or do it in house other than the boring. 2. Cut over to Ridge Engineering costs for Cut over to Ridge would be an extra $10,700, the option of extending 250’ cost would be half that. Supervisor Stec-Questioned added construction costs to install? Water Supt. Ostrander-approximately $115.00 per foot that is with rock…about $35,000 engineering and construction for 250’ double that for the connection over to Ridge Road. Noted these are old pipe with a history of breaks…. Supervisor Stec-I propose that we say lets pursue completing the loop tying the ends off and that way we are done with that chunk of town. Water Supt. Ostrander-This will be part of the Capital Reserve Fund. I recommend doing the entire project. Supervisor Stec-Lets complete the loop. (Changed order of Agenda) 8.0Oneida Corners - Marilyn VanDyke Town Historian Marilyn VanDykeintroduced Dr. Norman Enhorning, the new President of the Warren County Historical Society and Thomas Johansen a Member of the Board and also our property search team. We have been looking at the property, the old fire house we have had some members of the staff over there looking at the facility. What we are now thinking about is several things that I will talk about, an initial get in and occupy followed by what we would do if we were to expand further and how that would equate to the neighborhood known as the Oneida. There is a portion of the building occupied with voting machines and furniture, that would stay as it is. If we took the rest of it the right hand side of the building we would need three things in order to be able to get into the building. We brought in Dave Hatin and Chuck Rice to look these things over, we would need a handicapped accessibility at the front of the building we would need to take the two bathrooms and make them into one single handicapped bathroom and we would like to have an entrance that would go into the back room and the wall in the large room in the middle if that came out would give us a nice area for a secretary’s office and a place to store supplies. Councilman Brewer-Who would pay for all this? Dr. VanDyke-These changes would be part of a permanent changes to the building so you would have to tell us what would be entailed what you could and couldn’t do and what the cost would be. Councilman Sanford-Typically when I used to be involved in some of this stuff in another career path, what would happen is, it is not unusual for the owner of the property that would be the Town of Queensbury to do the renovations and build them into a lease arrangement. 642 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-13-2006 MTG. #9 Dr. VanDyke-That might happen in a commercial arrangement but in a government building and what the government does with the building that might be another issue. Supervisor Stec-Government typically does not lease space. Dr. VanDyke-Our basic needs are a place for the Board to meet and an exhibit room and storage for our collections in the back area which was the kitchen. Once the other part became available we would like the front part of the building. Councilman Brewer-How many square feet? Unknown-2900 square feet. (showed map of the area) Councilman Brewer-How much of a collection do you have? Unknown-Right now we have a collection in an 18x10 foot room. Councilman Brewer-What reason do you want to move? Unknown-Half the space is rented by an additional person and he is moving out we have to come up with the rent, also the facility is not handicapped accessible the back parking lot is not lit at night. Councilman Brewer-How much rent do you pay? Dr. VanDyke-Currently we rent 812 square feet for five hundred and fifteen dollars a month, however we have an additional space double that has been funded by someone else for the past two years and dries up come the end of April. We either stay in the five hundred and fifteen square feet or we pay a rent increase that is going to triple up to $1330. That is not affordable for us. Unknown-The major portion of our collection is the Quaker Burial Ground artifacts which is five thousand items. Councilman Brewer-Who owns the articles? Dr. VanDyke-The Warren County Historical Society. Councilman Brewer-That is funded by the County? Dr. VanDyke-No it is not. We have some support from the County but we are a non profit 501C3 organization and our funding comes from memberships, grants and a subsidy from the County part of that is funding for a history book that we are writing. It is not an aspect of County government. Unknown-It is educational and in a sense it is sort of a blanket historical organization that help coordinate as well. Unknown-Described how other communities have a place for their Historical Society, funding their heat, lights and maintenance. Dr. VanDyke-In looking at the Oneida Corners, have been speaking to members of the Grange to consider the possibility of taking over the care and maintenance of that building on a long term basis because the Grange is very small in number and may cease to exist, they want the building to remain a part of the historical Oneida. We started to look at the idea of the fact we are now all the part of the Lakes to Locks Tourism Trail which comes down Ridge Road and right by this area and we could therefore be eligible for to become a Heritage Center. A Heritage Center is a place where tourists stop in and look at exhibits and gather materials about other sites and places that they could visit within the area. We could do a great deal of promotion of Queensbury …we could also tell the story of the hamlet itself and why that was historically important. We could also 643 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-13-2006 MTG. #9 do a piece on Warren County as a whole. That idea of a center there has a lot of merit. Noted there are a number of different grants available for development and repair of buildings. The Society would like to have a permanent home and we would like to have a presence in Warren County and we would be happy to be in the Town of Queensbury. Councilman Brewer-Have you considered asking the County? Dr. VanDyke-We talked to the County in the past about some ideas that they have had up there one of which was to put a visitors center on the County property and have a facility for the historical society but that has not developed. Councilman Brewer-My issue with it, this was discussed several years ago and at that time Chuck Rice stated the same things that he stated now and no was the answer at that time from the Board. I guess I do not understand why is the interest rekindled again when we already said no once. Unknown-Because of the Oneida Grange, it would be an asset to the Town to have a museum. Councilman Boor-I would like to see it preserved. Unknown-Queensbury does not have a museum per se you have a museum which is in Glens Falls but you do not have a museum that is going to have different artifacts of Queensbury. In the Grange you would have museum up stairs, you would have the French and Indian War Material. Councilman Brewer-Why would you need the firehouse as well? Unknown-As an office because the Grange does not have a good facility to house the rest of the collection. Councilman Sanford-The problem the Grange is faced with is if they stop being a Grange and if they were to sell their building, the proceeds from that building would go to the National Grange and leave the area, they want to hold onto that building. Unknown-The property from the Grange goes right up to the firehouse if it is sold off, you are not going to have access to those big truck bays in the back. Supervisor Stec-Is the Grange on board with this? Councilman Boor-They are in trouble financially and they do not want to lose their designation. Dr. VanDyke-The Grange has approached us to consider the possibility of taking over the care and management of that building and we have been talking with them and we have met with some of their officials, we are now at a point to sit down and talk in more details with them. Councilman Sanford-What I would like for consideration, we may not be united on this as a Board, I would like to have from your Society a more specific proposal in terms of what you feel your budget would allow for rent and things of that nature, practical issues for us to then review it, discuss it and make a decision as to whether or not we wish to go forward. I appreciate the spirit of the arrangement that you are looking into with the Town which is that we would view this as an enhancement and we would be willing to work and contribute to it, we should with any viable not for profit organization but we would still need to have those types of specifics addressed. Councilman Boor-I spoke with Marilyn briefly today and it is my understanding that you guys would probably be picking up the heating the building, right? 644 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-13-2006 MTG. #9 Dr. VanDyke-We did talk about heat and light, briefly at the last meeting and had some figures that Chuck Rice had provided at that time, with the view that we would add one third more to that cost figure to see if that would be workable. Supervisor Stec-What is the square footage that you are looking for? What is an adequate space? Dr. VanDyke-At least fifteen hundred square feet. Noted that they have looked at a lot of property. Councilman Sanford-Speaking for myself I would be willing to work with the Society, but I would want to have specifics and I would want to know what you can contribute in terms of rent and utilities and practical things like that. We have the building and we are utilizing it now there would be some renovations associated with it we just need to have all these things nailed down before we can make a decision. Supervisor Stec-I agree. I would like to hear more about the renovations from Chuck Rice. Councilman Strough-One thing about the renovations it has to have a handicapped access, to make the machines accessible to the public so that is one thing the town has to do. (Continuing Agenda items) 6.0Landfill Supervisor Position Supervisor Stec-Historically we have had three union people and then Jim Coughlin, Mr. Coughlin fell and has not been at the transfer stations, so they have been operating with the three men. Mr. Sheerer has been doing Mr. Coughlins duties plus his own, he has indicated a willingness to leave the union if required in order to take on this larger roll with a larger paycheck. What we have talked to the Union about, they would prefer to see this member stay a union member but they also recognize that they would like to see him get more money. There is position a title currently in existence unused, that matches landfill equipment operator we could promote him into this and set whatever salary we wanted and it is non competitive. There are advantages and disadvantages whether it is competitive or non competitive for Civil Services. If our intents were to promote Keith we could still keep him Union. The question we have here I think we are all on the same page with what we would like to do for Keith, my own personal observations is I think we can operate this with three people. If we are ever going to make a change we have got the clean slate to do it now. I think we have a three month track record where we have done it. We have not come into vacation season or busy season, now maybe there is an exotic thing we can do where we say in the summer time, like we do with Missita’s crews in the summer time we bring in part time to cover or try to work with the union on designated utility infielder where he moves around from Department to Department as needed. Councilman Sanford-To keep Keith union and give him an increase and the responsibilities he has been given now but through a new title change, and then down the road, they really need an extra body, what is the down side from doing that through the union vs taking him out of the union and treating him as management? Supervisor Stec-The down side you will be hard pressed to have a union guy say I am supervising and disciplining other union people. Councilman Boor-My concern is if a personnel issue comes up now you have a union boss and a union employee I do not know how that plays. Councilman Brewer-Questioned if there is another way to do this. Supervisor Stec-Noted this may not be the only answer, will look into it. 645 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-13-2006 MTG. #9 Councilman Sanford-Spoke on the down side of Mr. Shearer not passing the civil service test. Supervisor Stec-Noted this man has been doing this job for thirty years. Councilman Boor-I sort of don’t want to lose his experience. Supervisor Stec-If there was going to be a discipline issue of personnel issue between him and the guys we would have had an inkling of that. Councilman Sanford-Probably low risk. Councilman Boor-I would be willing to take the chance. Councilman Sanford-If down the road there became an issue, we might be able to offer Keith the opportunity to go back to union and then go back to where we are right now and hire a manager if he did not pass the test. Councilman Brewer-You have to have the position to take the test, in other words you have to create that position for anybody to take the test. Councilman Sanford-Right now there is Keith and two others, all union, we give Keith the promotion then down the road there is too much work here and you bring in half FTE and that person would be union? Supervisor Stec-No Councilman Sanford-We can bring in a half non union FTE which would save the town money, then we are ok, the only time we are not ok is if there is discinplinary action and then I think we say to Keith at that time, we are going to create this position sit for the exam and see if you pass it, if you don’t get rid of the half FTE and Supervisor Stec-back as foreman again. Councilman Sanford-I want to protect Keith on one hand on the other hand I also want to do what is right for the town. Councilman Boor-We are probably all comfortable with him, I think when it comes to the point where he moves on then it has to be re-examined. Budget Officer Switzer-All the indications from Jim Coughlin before he left was Keith two to three years at a maximum. Councilman Strough-Are we setting a precedent by allowing somebody in management position to be part of the union? Will there be other people saying I am in management position I would like to belong to the union. Councilman Sanford-I think what Dan is suggesting and I like the creativity there. Councilman Brewer-What if there is a discipline problem with Keith how do we discipline him? Get him out of the union. Councilman Sanford-What is the difference in terms of employment conditions, union vs. non union what does it mean from a practical point of view? Budget Officer Switzer-You have representation, whereas your non union you have no representation. Noted all benefits are exactly the same. Councilman Sanford-For a three year period of time I am willing to take a chance. Councilman Boor-Same here. 646 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-13-2006 MTG. #9 Supervisor Stec-Noted he will speak to Rich Kelly at the County and tell him what we are thinking about and ask the question is there any down side that we have not thought about. Budget Officer Switzer-Noted he would be eligible for over time. Supervisor Stec-Discussed possible salary, will do a resolution after all questions have been answered through the County. 7.0Newspaper Supervisor Stec-Ms. Stiller and Mr. Lashway for no extra money as part of their duties they think they can generate the editorial end in house for the newsletter. So, if we did not want to pay anyone else to prepare a newsletter we can produce a newsletter in house, then we would have printing and mailing costs. I do see a value in a newsletter. Councilman Boor-The water report we have to do. Supervisor Stec-We will generate it in house the Board will review it. Councilman Strough-It still costs to mail it, we have a fantastic web site do we really need a newsletter? Supervisor Stec-We do for water. Councilman Sanford-What does it cost us for the newsletter? Budget Officer Switzer-Eleven hundred and twenty five dollars to have it published. Councilman Sanford-Requested that the matter be discussed in July. Discussion held on Oneida Corners Budget Officer Switzer-If you are split on doing something with that building then subsidize them just like you do any other 501C3’s and that way you are not leasing. Councilman Sanford-I toured the building and I think they could fit in there nicely and we could also have the use for the town but again I am not the expert on that. I think they need to come and say here is what we can offer is it acceptable to the town. I did not hear that tonight. Budget Officer Switzer-Do we know legally if we have to charge them a certain amount? Councilman Boor-We do not charge Warren County. Councilman Brewer-What if another 501C3 comes and wants a couple thousand square feet to rent? RESOLUTION TO ADJOURN SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING RESOLUTION NO. 153, 2006 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. Tim Brewer WHO MOVED FOR ITS ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mr. Richard Sanford RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby adjourns its Special Town Board Meeting. th Duly adopted this 13 day of March, 2006 by the following vote: 647 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-13-2006 MTG. #9 AYES; Mr. Boor, Mr. Sanford, Mr. Strough, Mr. Brewer, Mr. Stec NOES: None ABSENT: None Respectfully submitted, Miss Darleen M. Dougher Town Clerk-Queensbury