1998-07-07
SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING
JULY 7,1998
7:00 P.M.
MTG.#34
TOWN BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT
SUPERVISOR FRED CHAMPAGNE
COUNCILMAN RICHARD MERRILL
COUNCILMAN THEODORE TURNER
COUNCILMAN DOUGLAS IRISH-Absent
COUNCILMAN PLINEY TUCKER
TOWN OFFICIALS
CHRIS ROUND-DIRECTOR OF COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT
LAKE GEORGE PARK COMMISSION
MIKE WHITE
JOAN ROBERTSON
CARL DESANTIS, CHAIRMAN
MAGGIE STEWART
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Welcome to the North Queensbury Fire House, certainly we have a very
interesting evening for us planned and we hope that you will leave here with the kind of information that
you came here to seek. Before I start, I would like to introduce our Board that joined us this evening to my
immediate right here is Dick Merrill, and certainly Dick does a great job representing Ward I and basically
that is what we will be dealing with here tonight. Next is Ted Turner Ward II and our far right is Pliney
Tucker Ward IV, Mr. Irish is on vacation this week and unable to be with us. Chris Round over here on
the right hand side Chris, want to raise your hand, Chris serves as our Director of Community Development
and has a great deal of responsibility in terms of doing the kinds of things that cause some people some
concern mainly codes and things of that sort. Also, with us is Chairman Carl DeSantis from the Lake
George Park Commission along with Mike White, Joan Robertson and Maggie Stewart and if there is
anyone else that I missed please call it to my attention and we will get you on the roister. One of the things
that we would like to try and do tonight and I realize that this may be a bit of an inconvenience, we are
taping the meeting but unfortunately it is going to mean that when we ask you to come forward we would
like to have you come up here speak into the mic for us so that we can get it on tape and we can record so
that we can have some minutes of the meeting. It is my opinion that the Town Board is very anxious in
using this input in terms of the kinds of decisions that we will be making in the future relative to the Lake
George Park Commission and its role and function. So, it is my belief that our real reason for meeting
with you this evening is to hear from you, so it is my hope that if we can keep the board here quiet while
we sit and listen while you come forth and make your presentation it is going to be an opportunity for some
exchange certainly the Commission is here to answer questions and possibly even have some type of
response to your concerns. So, we are going to limit it to a five minute go around if we can ask you to keep
your comments to approximately five minutes and then after everyone has had the first chance to go
through the first round we will open it up again for the second round and we will be here for as long as you
choose to be here but I think we want to have the opportunity for everybody to speak their piece. So, with
that in mind what have I left out, does anyone have anything more to add before we start?
UNKNOWN-What is your focus?
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I think our focus is to hear from you relative to you know your thoughts
and ideas on the Lake George Park Commission its role, its function, its duties, how it serves us or doesn't
serve us. I think the important issue here tonight is there have been some Town Boards that have passed
some resolutions to abandon the Park Commission lets be realistic before this Queensbury Town Board
choose to take any type of action, pro, con or inbetween we want to hear from the general public and get
some opinions to kind of guide us through this. We believe that there are some things the Park
Commission is doing that is great, we believe that there are some things that may need some improvement.
So, that is where I will speak from, Dick you may want to add to that.
COUNCILMAN MERRILL-I think that pretty well sums it up, it is a chance to hear from you tonight and
the Park Commission is here and I think they will be taking part in the discussion too.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Ok. Any further more from the gentlemen to my right? Ok. It is open.
Who wants to start off here? ..ifthe Park Commission wishes to make a statement they are more than
welcome to do that.
MR. MIKE WHITE-My name is Mike White I am the Executive Director of the Park Commission staff
and I did take the time to prepare just a few comments I guess. Maybe I am the strong man to get things
moving and kick it off a little bit. I thought I would start a little bit of history about the Commission and
some basic details I guess. Hopefully that will help remind us what the Commission is about and what we
are supposed to be doing. I know the members asked me to express appreciation to the Board for holding
this forum, I thank you for the opportunity to speak about this issue. I start out with just a little bit of
background. The Commission was established in 1961 by act of the New York State Legislature. Even at
that time I guess, the legislature understood the relationship between activities and land drainage basin, and
their impact upon the water quality of the lake. They made the Lake George Park consist of the Lake and
the surrounding country side. The park is now defined as the drainage basin and comprises about three
hundred square miles of land and water surface area. The Commission members are citizens volunteers
and serve without any compensation what so ever. They are appointed by the Governor by and with the
advise and consent of the Senate. They are appointed on a County basis two from Warren, two from
Washington and two from Essex and three are at large citizens and the New York State Environmental
Conservation Commission is an ex-official member of the Commission. The Commission meets monthly
at various locations around the lake. When I first got.. . Fresh Water Institute involved with the Board back
in the early 80's I attended along with about a thousand other people a series of meetings around the lake
and public comment at those meetings are focused on what was a lack of government action to address
what people were complaining about and perceiving of problems with the Lake. They were up to three
hundred boats anchored at any given time in Sandy Bay there was complaints about excessive speeding on
the lake there were boats and a number of boats with strayed exhaust pipes. And there had not been a noise
enforcement case taken on the Lake in years. RPI through your contribution to the LGA and the funds for
lake George would sample water but no body would follow up on land to find out where a dirty ... was
coming from or coordinate any action to find the source and fix it. There was new information about non
point source pollution. A recognized decline in water quality and I am understanding that non point source
problems is very complex but there wasn't any program to really try and do anything about that. Even the
Commission had a lake patrol due to a demotion in their legal status and due to many years of limited lack
of good funding had become in effective. And that was pretty well recognized and there was a lack of
effective dock enforcement, a system that candidly seemed to reward the non compliant and punish the
innocent with an endless burrocacy of permits. And above all there was a concern about water quality a
feeling among people of helplessness to reverse the trends that were so evident to them. Well, when you
get a thousand people turning out for such a meeting people take notice and the New York State Legislature
took notice and they also took notice of the report of a task force called the Task Force for the Future of the
Lake George Park. It worked for over three years and involved over sixty representatives of State
Agencies, oflocal governments of the public and whatnot and the Task Force findings were significant. It
could be summarized down and boiled down to a single conclusion that despite a long list of involved
agencies many of the lakes problems were falling through the cracks because of a lack of directed effort
and coordination and management foresight. So, in 1987 the State legislature re-affirmed through
legislation the importance of Lake George as a State resource, too important to allow it to be diminished.
Through special legislation they re-vitalized the role of Lake George Park Commission and gave it specific
authority and instructions and created the Lake George Park Trust Fund and dock registration as a means
to finance these new efforts and new responsibilities. So, what has been done since then? Well, the Lake
George Park marine patrol their peace officer status restored has been revitalized, there has been an
renewed commitment to equipment to training to staffing and supervision. The patrol is lake wide we
serve all the way to the outlet, assist thousands of boaters, campers and hikers annually. We work closely
with the Warren County Sheriffs Office in fact we are dispatched through the Warren County Sheriffs
dispatch. Frankly, we go much further up the lake and we cover the entire area, six patrol zones. There are
overall Lake speed limits day and night, special PWC regulations, five hundred feet, Sandy Bay
regulations, anchoring prohibitions along private property. There is fair enforcement of dock and mooring
standards lake wide. Enforce limits on marina expansions, prohibitions against new quick launching
facilities. The LGPC took really an abandoned milfoil control program, took it over in 1995, we have
worked to expand it, we think the program is containing the spread of mil foil around the lake and
controlling its expansion at specific locations. We have progressive storm water program including nation
wide standards for development and grants for local governments for storm water planning. We have
instituted a follow up program for high bacterial count and we have a pollution hot line if called we go and
inspect and hunt down sources of pollution. These services have been added at really what I would think is
modest additional expenses for homeowners. Forty five dollars per year as an example if you own a dock
and boat about the same if you are a marina boater. Sixty five dollars lets say if you have a dock and two
boats. We have a system of registration and boat and dock registrations that we run at the office and we
conduct about twenty five thousand transactions per year and a average about forty five dollars a
transaction. I think there has been improvement in each of the areas where we have dedicated our
programs I would note that these are complex social problems we are dealing with. You will note that I did
not call them environmental problems because often they are not environmental problems. They are really
relate to crowding, and congestion and they are derived from very powerful economic forces, at work
stemming from what seems to be an almost unlimited demand for access to the beautiful lake that we have.
To the degree that public education, reasonable regulations and concerted efforts by volunteer commission
members and a small staff can be effective I think we have done the best possible job, we can in our area.
We often hear complaints about the Commission, complaints that well, one agency should be in charge of
everything. People do not seem to like it when they call the office and they get referred on to another
group. But that is clearly is not our mission, our mission is rather to fill gaps between existing government
functions, as a self sufficient agency we note that our responsibilities are very large and our budget is
limited. We have addressed each of those areas of our responsibilities in the best possible way we can. We
hear complaints about over regulation and we hear complaints that there is not enough regulations or
enforcement of the current rules. And we hear frankly in about equal measure. So, what in the final
analysis is the strength and benefits of the Commission, well it has unique authority in New York State to
establish educational and regulatory programs to address lake recreation problems and to feel a lake wide
public safety and enforcement effort which is supported not by local property taxes but by fees from the
boats and dock owners who directly benefit from this service. To place docks and moorings on a State
owned lake you need a State permit. The LGPC has eliminated duplication of other State agencies such as
DEC and it runs a fair program of dock limits with good enforcement. I might note that in a recent survey
over all basin wide those responding about a thousand people reported, seventy three percent were familiar
with our dock and mooring regulations and eighty nine percent felt that they were appropriate. Dock limits
are the same in Putnam and Dresdon as they are in Queensbury. And frankly we do more dock business in
that area then we do down here. We are supported in our efforts on mil foil by the fund and we are partners
with Fresh Water Institute but as a State Agency we provide for the permits and anchor the program in
ways that neither one of those groups can or wants to be involved. We can equalize efforts in such areas as
storm water management, among towns such as Queensbury, and ones that are not so capable of carrying
out these program areas. That ensures that efforts in one area of the lake are not diminished by a lack of
progress in other areas. LGPC can follow up on community investment and water sampling and track
down sources and see to the correction of pollution sources. We can over see lake levels, plan
environmental initiatives, provide grants to community groups, educate boaters and lake users, not at the
expense of local taxes but shared among thousand of lake users. Over all the Commission has been
effective with limited resources in creating a most effective and efficient program possible. Members are
active members active managers of the Commission and decision makers who welcome your suggestions,
we are ready, willing and able to work with any local government or groups toward improving
coordination, communications and provide the best possible programs for the lake and its users.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you Mike.
Now we will open it up to the floor, please, yes, Sir, John.
MR. JOHN SALVADOR - I would just like to pick up on a couple of things that Mike mentioned. He
referred to the 1961 legislation that put the Park Commission in place. He mentioned the three at large
Commissioners, more specifically that legislation states that these, and it does not use the term three at
large it uses the term three from local lake protective associations. I know of only one local lake protective
association that existed in 1961 and I do not know of any other in addition to that today. He did mention
that all are appointed by the Governor. Of grave concern to me of course is how these Commissioners
names are put into nomination before the Governor? And these concerns arise because these
Commissioners are unelected officials and if you study the legislation carefully they have been given
powers of taxation and zoning. And these are powers that are reserved for our local government and of
course these are elected officials. The Commissioners are not accountable to anyone, are not accountable.
Our elected officials are. These are the reasons the other three towns have passed resolutions of non-
support of the Commission because the Commission is treading on their terf, taxation and zoning. That is
all I have to say right now but I ..comments for later.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you, John. Anyone else? Yes, Sir. Ted..
MR. TED ARNSTEIN-My name is Ted Arnstein, I am hear representing the East Side Property Owners,
three hundred property owners along the shores of this Lake who are vitally involved. Gentleman, you are
facing again I think what happened at least twice before when questions were raised about the Park
Commission and it is very difficult for you it is difficult for us because the concept of the Park Commission
is a good one. Many of the Towns in the other Counties particularly you are well aware of this, are not as
strongly regulated and do not have the people who are as efficient as Queensbury but the same problems
exist. Unfortunately, John, touched on several of the very important problems. The people are not
responsible to the voters, you know only too well in recent memory people who were shoo-ins for re-
election did not get in because they did not do what the electorate wanted. These people are here they just
appointed one from our Town a very fine lady to nine more years. I do not think anybody my age or even
her age she is a young person comparatively should have nine more years on a board like that. Despite this
business of the Governor appointing them we all are aware the Governor gets the names from a few people.
Probably most orderly, Bartlett, Pontiff and Company. Now, lets talk particularly about what Mike said.
He is correct, Sandy Bay they did a very good job, they solved that problem by putting forty I believe there
was or fifty buoys there it seems to be working fine. He talked about speed and noise enforcement, not too,
good Mike, don't brag about it. Docks, not good, I really begin to think you believe you keep putting out
this stuff about milfoillike you people invented it. The LGA fought for that for years, years and suddenly
it becomes your idea. Stop dreaming with this stuff. You have the police authority they do not do a good
job. The five hundred foot limits never enforced. You talk about the docks within walking distance here I
can take you to twenty, walking distance, Class B Marinas that you people are well aware of and you do
not enforce your own laws. Change the laws to something that you can enforce. Don't brag about what
you haven't done, I think you believed it. You talk about eighty-nine percent of the people approved the
dock regulations, I do not know where you got these answers but this is not what happened. You talked
about ninety seven percent approved the noise regulations at the LGA meeting, you were there, Carl,
almost one hundred percent including yourself, raised your hand and said they are not working, you want
need more noise regulations. Come on get with it, you are needed, we need you we need your help. But,
don't dream this stuff up. I can take you to places here and sometimes Queensbury involved in this too,
who get a permit to change a dock, enlarge a dock, nothing is done about it. You are not enforcing your
own laws. Either enforce them or change thern. I do not think you listen to the public. I really do not think
you do. I have more to say but I will wait until the end.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I have a letter here from Jennifer Cline, I would like to read it into the
minutes. They have asked me to do this, this was sent to me back on May 15, 1998. Dear Supervisor
Champagne, The Bolton Town Board deserves a commendation for their recent resolution, copy attached,
that condenm the LGPC and asks for their disbainment. The key point Bolton makes as their resolution, in
their resolution is the elitist LGPC a Commission that is in no way accountable to our area residents.
Threatens the freedoms we should enjoy as Americans. The State Legislature has empowered the LGPC
with the ability to adopt laws, enforce policy and tax our local citizens without any accountability to the
citizens nor any action from local or State Elected Officials. This is taxation with out representation
something aour fore fathers fought and died for and the foundation of our constitution. In the summer of
1997 at the invitation of the LGPC I attend a public forum after listening to the LGPC presentation for
about one hour they reluctinently allowed the public to comment. They had advertised they would. I spoke
out about the over regulations of residents and visitors of Lake George are subject to and some of the
burdensome regulations and enforcement policies being implemented by the LGPC. Specifically, boarding
of boats for sanitary inspection and harassing visitors slash boats at Glen Island and other popular family
recreation areas without cause or reason. Not allowing children to learn to swim or other families activities
at Sandy Bay. Requiring a marina permit to have a visitors boat at your private dock. I also made some
suggestions regarding pollution sources that I felt they should focus on such as outboard motor oil in the
lake which is a source of drinking water for my family as well as many others. Evidently the LGPC took
offense to my comments. One week later a plain cloths officer with no identification in an unmarked car
turned up at our home and insisted on an investigation an anonymous report of a failing septic system that
was polluting the lake. The office knew that we did not even have a septic system since he had a copy of
the plans that were submitted to the LGPC when the holding tank was installed on the property years
before. At the time my wife was expecting twenty one, sixteen year old children in forty five minutes for a
private party. Vividly remembering the 1992 incident with the LGPC she was alone and intimidated by
the LPGC officer, she asked the officer to re-schedule his investigation to a time when I could be present
and then ask to leave. The officer offered all kinds of excuses why he could not re-scheduled and insisted
on investigation immediately. At that time my wife ordered him off the property. After the officer left she
went to the house and called me and our attorney while on the phone she observed the officer sneaking
back through the woods across the private driveway leading to our property. At that point our Attorney
raised the director of the LGPC, Michael who called the officer and directed him back to the office. We
have been denied, we identified, we have been denied the identify of the so called anonymous accuser at
every request we have made seems to be delayed as much as possible and then denied. It is our opinion
that there is no anonymous accuser and the LGPC is using their powers to inteminadate us. The last time I
checked I was not living in Nazi Germany, we have a constitutional right to quietly and freely enjoy our
property without being harassed by a rouge agencies like the LGPC. Lack of accountability combined with
unlimited and unchecked authority makes me believe the only course for the LGPC is to be dissolved. I
hereby request your support in eliminating this agency and returning local control to our area. I urge the
Town Board to pass a similar resolution endorsing the Town of Bolton's initiative. Please feel free to
contact me if you have any questions or if you chose to discuss this matter further. I can be reached during
business hours at 518 798-0125. Sincerely, David and Klein PE. Well, we will put that in the record. Ok.
With that said now who is next? Yes. David.
MR. DAVID KLEIN My name is Dave Klein the author of that letter. I appreciate you reading it into the
minutes, Fred. Graduate Civil Engineer, I am a licensed Professional Engineer. . . a firm designed the waste
water treatment plant that got the White House attention when Carroll Browner the head of EP A visited the
site for a ground breaking. I sit on the State Board of Building Codes Review, so I know a little bit about
storm water, I know a little bit about waste water. . . be dangerous. My problem is the Lake George Park
Commission is not accountable to the area residents and threatens the freedom that we should enjoy as
Americans. We are being taxes without representation, I am being denied to face by accuser, I have been
refused to address of the Board of the Lake George Park Commission with regards to the incident that
occurred at our house last summer. If the Lake George Park Commission wanted to work with area
residents they would accommodate our request to address them. Our constitutional and civil rights are
being eroded, the Lake George Park Commission is accountable to no one. Carl DeSantis will not do
anything, the Court will not do anything the legislature will not do anything. Recently we sued a John and
Jane Doe in the ..Lake George Park Commission for the identity of the person who supposedly accused us
of having a failing septic system, and we were denied. Now, I have got to spend money to appeal it,
otherwise the Lake George Park Commission has another notch in their belt and a court case proven that
they have the ability to take anonymous complaints and come into your homes with no cause and harass
your family. Lets examine the rules and policies adopted by the Lake George Park Commission. Storm
water regulations that are impractical at best can do nothing to address the major sources of lake pollution,
pollution of the lake. Wastewater regulations that needlessly make a good portion of property on Lake
George un-usable and we are finally thrown out in court after causing many hardships. Dock regulations
that require marina permit to have a visitors boat temporarily ties up to your private dock which you have
already paid a dock permit for. And a boat boarding policy that has not resulted in detecting an improper
toilet or sink in years yet offended users of the lake and infringes on our civil liberties. Even the Coast
Guard cannot board a boat without cause. Personal water craft regulations that are out right dangerous, if
you want to get rid of personal water craft get them off the lake don't make them go five hundred feet off
shore and get run over. Mooring regulations, in an enforcement policy in Sandy Bay that inhibits young
children from safetly utilizing the national resources that they have historically been entitled to. Now we
are facing noise regulations that will force all the wooden boats with through hull exhaust off the lake.
These boats have been on the lake for eons. I own one. The lake George Park Commission causes, cruses
around on sunny afternoons in, with their outboard engines dumping oil into my drinking water, that is how
they are protecting the lake by running around with an outboard motor on. Ask Mr. DeSantis you know
can't you use outboard, or inboards that don't dump oil into the lake. Well, we have to buy them under state
contract or you buy environmentally bio-degradable oil? No, we buy it on State contract the cheapest stuff
we can get. In response to a recent article in the Post Star entitled Park Commission Officials respond to
recent criticism the article starts out by stating, watch dogs can be ugly, in conclusion I contend that this
watch dog, the Lake George Park Commission has distemper and should be put to sleep. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR CHAMP AGNE- Thank you, Mike, Dave, sorry. Folks I am going to ask you to hold your
applause, I think it has no purpose in this evenings meeting so I would ask you to do that. Ok, who is next.
Yes, Mame
MS. SHERRY KEARNS -I am a resident of Sandy Bay and from my limited perspective, life would be
intolerable without the Lake George Park Commission and the good work that they have done enforcing
the regulations that they have established in our bay. I know that life would be intolerable because before
the regulations and before the enforcement it was intolerable. There are no restrictions upon children
swimming in Sandy Bay, they do that all the time. There are no restrictions upon families enjoying Sandy
Bay they do that all the time. There are laws that are enforced there are fifty five available bouys and that
is not a small number. On any given afternoon you will find that they are occupied and they are occupied
by families and they are occupied by people enjoying themselves. Previous to the Park Commission they
were occupied by drunks, and people who carried on twenty four hours a day in a shameless fashion with
no regard what so ever to the residents in that area. No good thing ever comes without some balancing loss
of something. You know with government comes the reduction of private privilege it has always been that
way. I thank the Lake George Park Commission for making life in our area so much better.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Could I get your name please?
-I beg your pardon?
DEPUTY TOWN CLERK BARBER-Your name please?
MS. SHERRY KEARNS-Sherry Kearns
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Ok. Anyone else. Yes. Sir.
MR. NORM SYMES-From the Lake George Association. Just to put a little different spin on this maybe
and a little different perspective. Many years ago when I was President of the Lake George Association,
we had a general concept that in fact there should be one organization on the lake to make rules and
regulations throughout the lake, this was before Carl DeSantis this was before Mike White this was before
all the commissioners that are here tonight. It was our idea supported by our membership and I see many
members here tonight that with the different towns and the different counties that surround the lake that if
each one were to go out and develop the road speed limit their own septic tank rules their own ground
water problems their own wall problems and you can imagine they have been talked about so much here
tonight that we almost would have ... here tonight. People would not know especially the boaters as you
go from one town in the lake to the other town in the lake what are the rules of this town? So, in general I
certainly support the idea that there is one organization on the lake, obviously we have heard from some
people who think there are problems within that organization. I do not think any organization who gets to
be that big that controls a lake of thirty two miles and literally hundreds and hundreds of homes along that
lake can do the job to everybody's satisfaction. I certainly sympathize with certain families that have
particular problems with the Commission. From what I know the Commission these people are bright
enough to step forward and listen to the type of problems that you have and find a remedy to those, I would
recommend that. I have attended a lot of their meetings they have attended a lot of our meetings we
support that all the way. But, the idea that there should not be a Commission I think takes us back into the
stone age almost on this lake because we really do break it back up again and we lose that single concept of
one power that governs the lake. Now, again a lake this big it is very difficult to keep everybody happy in
all the bays and in all the shore sides homes and the homes on the other side of the lake and whatever, it is
very difficult to do. I think it behooves all of us that live on the lake to take a more active part in what the
Park Commission is doing. Go to more meetings, make yourself heard, go to the LGA use our power on
the lake to do it, we probably have more members on this lake than any other organization that is here, We
are more than willing to work with the Commission. On the good side of the Commission they have
partnered with us over the last couple of years to bring literally, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of
dollars in the lake projects that the Lake George Association is overseeing right today. We have been very
successful with a lot of storm water run off problems with education programs with our floating
classrooms on the lake a lot of these are funded by the LGA and by outside sources but a lot of them with
the support of the Park Commission. So, in general my recommendation is that we certainly not do away
with this concept that has been around since the early 80's of one governing body but in fact if we have
problems that we make those known. Certainly, Mr. Supervisor we are here tonight to say that and people
have said that. Go to the meetings, participate be a part of what it is all about we will all come together on
the lake somehow. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you.
MR. DAVE WILCOX-My name is Dave Wilcox, I summer on Assembly Point live in Albany, work in
Albany so I am not up here year round as sum of you are. Because of that I have had somewhat limited
contact with the Lake George Park Commission. My first experience was when the Lake George Park
Commission took over the regulations of the water level. I worked with one of the staff members as an
interested person in understanding the lake level and I thought was a very positive experience working with
them. Other experiences that have happened to neighbors of mine, not to me personally have been what
appears to be an uneven enforcement of regulations. In this particular instance a repair of a dock that had
been damaged during a winter storm compare and contrasting that to another landowner who with slightly
larger holdings seemed to be able to do what that landholder chose to do on his property perhaps using the
it is easier to be forgiven then it is to ask permission approach to construction. If the Lake George Park
Commission is truly uniformly enforcing its rules I think it needs to do a little bit better job of helping the
public understand how it really is doing so. If it is not then as others have indicated I would request that
they perhaps start being uniform in their enforcement of the rules. As to disillusion of the Lake George
Park Commission I believe an organization is needed to help to be an umbrella over the lake that I too
would not want to see an organization multi, management of the lake done by multiple organizations that
were not working together in conjunction with each other. I do have a strong concern however about the
issue of representation and accountability. I have not studied well enough nor do I understand well enough
the what it would take to change the organization so that there were representation, that it were a
representative organization where that would take a legislative action or not. My request and advice to the
Town Board would be rather than disbanding the Lake George Park Commission but would be to move
toward establishing it in a more representative fashion. If that takes getting our State wide legislators to
modify whatever laws there are in effect then so do it. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR CHAMP AGNE- Thank you. Anyone else for the first round? Yes, Sir.
MR. JOHN BROCK- My name is John Brock, I have a home and business in Queensbury and some of the
things being said here tonight are I agree with. There were used to be fifty five moorings in Sandy Bay,
there are now forty. The Park Commission has made no effort to put the fifteen back, ok. In otherwords if
we keep those boats out of the Bay lets keep them out. I have three hundred feet of frontage on a Town
Road, the Town told me I have permission to go on and off my property from that road. However the Park
Commission tells me I do not have that privilege. I can pay taxes but I cannot go on and off my property.
So, I ask the Town and it is ok and I asked the Park Commission and it says it is not ok. Now I do not
know who controls the roads is it the Town or is it the Park Commission.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-You would have to ask Mr. Naylor.
MR. BROCK-Mr. Naylor says there is no problem at all.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-So, that is your answer.
MR. BROCK-However... ok. However the Park Commission says there is.
Now the Town of Queensbury gave me a letter saying I can stack boats on my property, the Park
Commission says you cannot do that. Ok. Another thing I have a business to sell boats. When I sell a
boat, lets say a sixty thousand dollar boat the sales tax goes to a good portion of it to the Town of
Queensbury. The Park Commission comes along and says wait we are going to limit the boats he can have
for sale so we are going to put a limit on the number of boats I have on my property for sale. I may have all
kinds of space available but we are going to limit how many boats I can sell. Then lets say you want to buy
a new tractor to put your boat in and out of the water. Everybody else's goes and and buys a tractor, no you
cannot do that you have got to get permission from the Park Commission to buy a new tractor. To buy a
tractor? How would you like to get permission to buy a tractor to mow your lawn? Ok. What to mow
your lawn, you have got to go and get permission, well I think the regulations are getting too far it is time
for the Town to come along and take control of the land and I agree the Park Commission has a function
they should be from the water line out and the town should be from the water line in. Ok. Yes. Patrol the
lake, take care of the boaters, take care of the problems with the lake ok, lets take care of the patrol and the
milfoil if that is what they want to do that is great, but when they come in and start taking control of the
land I think that is the towns job. I believe if we go to the town and get permission to do something with
our land we should be able to do it. We are paying the town taxes. And the septic system, if the Town has
septic system regulations we should have to conform to that, let Bolton have theirs, if they have theirs
everybody has their own, if you live in that town you pay taxes in that town the town should regulate your
land not the Park Commission. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR CHAMP AGNE- Thank you. First round, we are still on the first round, anyone else?
MR. JOHN SALVADOR-Back to my first round comments.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-John Salvador, right, for the record.
MR. JOHN SALVADOR -Yes. I have a couple of comments, I overlooked in my first round. Mike White
referred to the 1961 legislation, that legislation created the body, called the Lake George Park Commission
it did not create a park. A park has never been created by the legislature. A park has simply been defined
and it wasn't in 1961 it was in 1962. In 1961 they could just as easily called the body they created the Lake
George Commission, but they dumped park in there. But at that time we had some very careful and
conscientious bill drafters I guess, they took the trouble to spell the work park with a lower case p they
knew what they were talking about, there was no park. I maintain to this day there has never been a
legislative enactment creating the Lake George park, it is phantom park. Again, the subject of zoning and I
think this is where the Town of Queensbury has to comes to grips with this problem. People have so far
talked about some of the encounters they have had with the Commission, by biggest complaint with the
Commission is they are not uniform in their enforcement with their own regulations. Mike said something
about if you have a dock on State land you should pay a fee, I do not disagree with that at all but why do I
have to pay fees on my docks that are not on State land? My wife and I returned from vacation once in
1977 to find a summons attached to our front door. I guess most of you know that we operate Dunhams
Bay Lodge. This is a uniform appearance ticket written by the Department of Environmental Conservation
and our charge, we had to answer the charge the maintaining within the boundaries of the Lake George
Park an advertising sign without a permit from the lake George Park Commission. No exceptions apply,
seven counts. Now, I do not know how many of you were around here in 1977 but I just do not think you
could ever tag us with a property that had, that could possibly have seven counts of violation of the sign
ordinance. But, anyway it was written and we answered this and we had to go to court, Queensbury Town
Court, Mr. Champagne, John Carusone presiding. We went to this courtroom the second or third of
January, you could imagine what that court room was filled with after the New Years weekend. We sat
and waited our turn, when we got to the bench, John Carusone, the charge was read, John Carusone leaned
over the bench and he said to me Mr. Salvador, do you understand the seriousness of these charges? I
thought he was kidding? I really thought he was kidding, but we had to clean up such things as a Coke
Machine out doors, because you know the lake George Park Commission sign ordinance says you are only
allowed two signs if you have a certain frontage. Two advertising signs, and an advertising sign is
something that is defined as a sign that advertises a product or a service, a product or a service. As a result
of this summons we had to remove three decals from the front door of our business, that said American
Express, Visa, Master Card, we had to take the Coke machine and put it inside because signs are signs if
you can see them from the road or the lake. That is their sign ordinance. Ok. Now, we cleaned all of this
up you do not see any of this around our place but our neighbors you will see ice machines outdoors you
will see Coke machines out doors, you see banner signs allover we do not have any of that. We had to
remove four on premises directional signs something that just on the door said cocktail lounge but you
could see it from the road and that was an advertising sign. Then we had a little sign that said reception,
just out in front of our, it said reception, we had to get a permit for that, two square feet, white on brown,
two feet, three feet off the ground we paid five dollars for it. Ok. I do not know if others do this, I do not
know how uniformly these regulations are enforced, but we had to do this, this was in 1977. Mr. Turner, in
1981 you were on the Zoning Board of Appeals when the Dunhams Bay Boat Company applied for their
variance for their show room addition. The Town of Queensbury at that time did not have a sign ordinance.
(tape turned) ..says signs are not allowed higher than twenty feet off grade, where is grade, I know. But,
take a look at the Dunhams Bay Boat Company today there must be twenty violations. I go to the Town
and I ask what about this, it says here the Lake George Park, we do not enforce the lake George Park
Commission sign ordinance, go to the lake George park Commission we did not make that requirement in
the variance, so that is what you see down there today. The rules and regulations what ever they are they
are not uniformly enforced and that is the problem we all have. Now Mr. ... said that it is not realistic that
all towns have their own regulations, that is exactly right and they are not supposed to. We have State
agencies that have preempted local government in their, in writing rules and regulations and that is what we
are supposed to follow. The DEC has all the regulations in the world we need for Lake George we are just
not paying attention to thern. The Office of General Services has all the regulations we need. We do not
pay any attention to them. Because we like our private pond controlled by our insider group. We like that.
It suits our purpose. Mike White mentioned the plan for the future of the Lake George Park Mr.
Champagne, our Planning Board chairman at the time participated in this blue ribbon panel. In any case in
this plan and this was not a legislative produced plan this was a plan that was put together by the Lake
George Association they had some help from the DEC because they ran out of money. But in this plan it
stated this plan is a strategic document for a strategy plan for accomplishing specific objectives it is not a
comprehensive land use plan. Nor, is it a detailed lake management or watershed management plan. But,
this plan led to the Park Commission getting into waste water regulation, storm water regulations, stream
corridor management, a sign ordinance, what else have we, all land uses that infringe upon the rights of our
town to develop ordinances in that regard. A hot topic in the Town of Queensbury now is waste water
management, and I would like to know from the Commission what their plans are for the future. You have
an obligation a legislative mandate if you will to develop wastewater regulations. The first go around they
were nullified don't know where we are going with the waste water management plan for the Town of
Queensbury or any place else in the lake George basin but, it is a very, very important thing no one will
ever convince me that you do not need a plan to collect and treatment wastewater in North Queensbury.
You cannot go on this way. Our Town has been illegally granting holding tank permits, they are not
allowed for year around residences. Simply not allowed by the public health code and we are granting
them. And we are granting them as a result of your waste water regulations that allow this. Total disregard
for the Public Health Code when you promulgated your waste water regulations. Total disregard for the
DEC developed waste water treatment specifications for waste water treatment works in the Lake George
Basin, total disregard for what they said. And that was part of the legislative mandate that put you in this
business was that manual. You could have simply adopted it and ran, you did not have to waste all that
time and money developing waste water regs. You did not have to do it. Our Town had a sanitary
ordinance in place was better than the one you came up with and you allowed them to go ahead and grant
these holding tank permits contrary to the Public Health Policy. This issue of land use that the Commission
has gotten into is counterproductive and its, there is going to be no peace in this valley until this issue is
settled and it deals with storm water and it deals with waste water, it deals with all of these things.
Someone previously said you want to regulate the use of the water from the shore out if you will, fine,
everyone should also know that the Lake George Park Commission as it hands out these permits, marinas,
docks whatever it is, everything is coded to the tax parcel. Everything is coded to the tax parcel. We own
and operate a recreation resort south of 9L the Park Commission calls that a marina we are being regulated
as a marina there. The Town calls us a resort different rules apply. So, it is upsetting to us, it really is
upsetting to us there was a lot of talk about needing one agency that was going to settle everything and do
this we do not have that at all, we have another layer of government and it is not doing the job, it is not
doing the job simply because it is a square peg in a round hole. Get off the land and you will have more
success in this endeavor. That is all I have now.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thanks John.
MR. TED -I never thought when I came here tonight that I would be in the position of having to
defend the Park Commission. But, there has been some things said here that are stretching the truth. Mr.
Brock particularly you talked about not having access to the road, you are referring to the back road the
Nason road where you infringe on your neighbors and the Park Commission with a great deal of pressure I
might add and a lot of thought and planning made you put up some foliage there which is growing up and
will eventually make that livable. You have all the access in the world on the Cleverdale road and as a
matter of fact many, many times when I go to my mail I have to wait for your man to pull the boats across,
which is all right you have got to make a living. Then you talked the limit, the number of boats you have,
they are talking about the number of boats that you can have on the property at anyone time. If you could
sell enough of them you could sell a thousand, don't make this muddier than it is. Please. What they did
there is the bear limit to what you should have, when you talk John Salvador about strictly the water I wish
it was that simple. The land makes the water bad they have to be involved in that. I wish the hell, they
were involved more. You say you do not have a marina I think there are sixty, seventy slips there I call that
a manna.
MR. SALVADOR-South of 9L
MR. TED -South of 9L
MR. SALVADOR-..Any slips...
MR. TED
-Well they are all tied up on the
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Folks I do not want to get into a debate here really I think, we gave you the
right to speak, Ted you do ahead and do your thing.
MR. TED -The point is we all got by there everyone should make their own decision on that. So, what
is right is right here lets not ... these people. I would like to submit, perhaps you have all seen this, a copy
of the lake George Mirror there is an article in here about the Bolton feeling, a letter, very, very good letter
it might be of interest to those of you who have not read it.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I appreciate that, I have heard about that but have not read it. Ok. Yes.
MRS. KATHLEEN SALVADOR-Just a couple of things, one thing my husband forgot to mention when
the Forest Ranger came with the seven violations, actually there were more than seven there were thirteen.
We ask him why did you come to us, you are the biggest business on the east side and I drive by you every
day. Ok.
MR. SALVADOR-In Court he said that.
MRS. SALVADOR-In court he said that, John mentioned the Visa, Master Card sign we had, we had three
little decals on our front door, three little decals on the side, where it said cocktail lounge a directional sign
we have a water sports building that we close in the fall, we .. a little Pepsi sign in that says sorry we are
closed, yes we are open that was a sign. This man took the time to draw a picture of each of these signs,
now you paid for him to do this, this is ridiculous. We were complimented again this evening by Mrs.
Robertson just how lovely our sign is, how beautiful our property is, yes, and we are very proud of it, we
have worked very hard over five or six years to make it a beautiful property. To abide by the rules, but we
would like to be treated equally. If any of you took the time to look over all the marina permits this
commission has written, uniformity? Each one is designed for each individual marina there is no
uniformity to any of them. We have copies of all of them. This Commission is doing nothing for the lake
except, extracting eight hundred thousand dollars from this Community every year. Mr. White says they
are self sufficient, sure self sufficient they get the money from us, from the boaters, they are not self
sufficient they do not generate one penny it all comes from the boating industry. And I think you all should
be aware of that. We all love this lake it is a beautiful lake we all want to enjoy it. ... we are doing fine
before this. The lake is going down everyone said, if you anything about lakes they are born to die. This
lake will die, maybe a little bit after lake Luzeme will die or Saratoga Lake but it will die and nothing you
are going to do will help it. It may just prolong its death but it is not going to stop it.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you. Anyone else? Yes, sir?
Gil?
MR. GILBERT BOEHM-I have questions? In order for the Lake George Park Commission to do a good
job it seems to me that they need good data, the question I have what data are they personally collecting,
codifying, analyzing etc. either for the future of the sewage system or whatever? Can you answer that?
Are you collecting data and what data are you collecting?
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Mike it is entirely up to you to try to answer that fine, if not, you just don't
answer it, it is up to you.
MR. MIKE WHITE-We as was mentioned earlier, are charged under our legislation to have a waste water
management program and I would also mention that those regulations were in existence for a few years.
One thing that they called for is the regular inspection of system and we feel the crews that went around
and knocked on doors and mapped systems trying to locate them in relationship to the lake and streams and
whatever.. The Town of Queensbury, lake George, Bolton, very soon after the regulations were effective
we entered into agreements with those communities to reduce the duplication that would create. This was a
balancing again as I mentioned so that the standards of waster water in Dreden and Putnam and Essex
county those areas would be equlivant to those or nearly equlivant to the other areas in the Towns such as
Queensbury and Bolton, who over the years increased their. . .
MR. BOEHM-...
MR. WHITE-I can be long winded I know but I want to lay a little foundation for this and explain that one
thing that we have done is to retain a company that regularly designs these on site systems, the LA Group.
Kind of take a look at that information and to evaluate well what can be done if anything to improve these
systems. They are going to prepare more or less and economic analysis what is out there in terms of
technology, what can people due what will it cost. We do not really know where necessarily where that is
going to lead at this point but they are going to do some kind of written report that we are then going to
release to the public for comments. At the same time we received a grant from fund for lake George Inc.
and we did kind of a Nationwide search of firms and retained a company called Stearns and Wheeler to
conduct some specific studies on site systems and soil conditions around the lake over a two year period at
least to evaluate what contribution of key nutrients especially phosphrous and nitrogen come from the soil.
We are particularly interested I guess in trying to see if we can finally come to some public consensus as to
what the relative contribution of waster water systems are to the over all nutrient budget of the lake. We
are not really talking about systems that are full fail they are broken they are leaky then need to be found
and fixed. What we are talking about is an otherwise functioning system and they are going to conduct a
kind of all out review of all the information we have of look at some of these systems, measure them
specifically and produce a report. It is going to take some time they are going to measure these systems
over as we said a couple of years, but that is going on. We are also involved, that is in the area of
wastewater, we track and count milfoil in colonies, we do an annual count of plants that are removed
through our contract with ... water institute. We also have just completed an environmental impact
statement for our storm water management program so those are a few areas I guess I will mention in terms
of data collection. Trying to stay abreast of scientific information and promote examination of these issues.
They are basically again trying to get the public involved in understanding and build some kind of
consensus of what direction we should be heading.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you.
MR. GILBERT BOEHM-Are you doing any subsurface analysis TO?
MR. WHITE-Yes.
MR. BOEHM-As part of this?
MR. WHITE-Yes, that is right.
MR. BOEHM-Thank you.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Ok. Thanks, Gil. Wait, John...
MR. SAL V ADOR-I am just getting warmed up.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I know you are that is why I want to cool you off. Go ahead, Carl.
MR. CARL DESANTIS-I am Carl DeSantis, presently the Chairman of the lake George Park Commission,
resident of Lake George. I am not going to debate anyone here of what has been said. A number of things
have been said that if you examine them a little further probably would not hold up. But, let me just say,
that I moved here in 1940 I am looking at Paul Hillman, I think he was here a little bit before me, and
maybe a few others, but I can tell you that when we swam off the Lake George dock, if there was a soda
bottle thirty feet down you could tell, you could read the brand. This lake is going down hill, there is no
question about it. Maybe it is not going down as fast as some of the people think it is or maybe it is going
faster but it is going down. Our mission is to protect and preserve the lake and you have heard tonight a
number of ways that we do it. I know that waste water is a problem, we had waster water regs. certain
citizen groups went to court and threw them out on a technicality. I do not believe there was anything
about the designs and so forth is was a technicality. The very people who have property on the lake who
assets we are trying to protect, took us to court, that doesn't make sense to me. But, it happened. This time
when we put them in effect they are going to be right. They will withstand the court case and I am sure
there will be a court case. For what reason I do not know, it is neither here nor there. Representation I
know since I have been Chairman I have had the privilege of appointing two members and I went to the
Town Supervisors and asked their advice on who they would like to have on the Board and we were
successful in getting thern. Now, we have had some re-appointments, one Mrs. Robertson, I did not
appoint her, she represents Queensbury very well and I was instrumental in getting her reappointed. But,
our role, no let me just back up a little bit. We get accused of not having enough patrol in this bay or that
bay or that bay. Now, we only have six to seven boats on the lake at one time and that is a thirty two mile
lake. You cannot be everywhere, not with that number, the Sheriff department has three. It still is not
enough. We could probably have three or four times as many, we will be critized for stopping people for
enforcing our rules. I do not know anyone who has been arrested for speeding who sent a Christmas card to
the arresting officer it does not happen you get criticized. But I can assure you that with our limited
resources that eight hundred thousand dollars is not a lot of money to run an organization and control try to
help a lake this size. But we have dedicated people they are courteous they are well trained and we are
doing a myriad of things with limited resources. We do not have taxing powers, we can not raise fees, it is
impossible. We did get, there is a royalty if you will on electricity that is generated north on the lake.
DEC turned that over to us a couple of years ago it sounded like a pretty good deal because we collect
anywhere between seventy to one hundred and ten thousand dollars depending on the .. and so forth. After
they gave us this job and said here is the money then they started to bill us for services maintenance to the
boats, Lieutenant Snyder and so forth. So, it was not exactly a net for us. So, if you want to change the
Park Commission the only way you are going to be able to do it is by the same body that put us in there,
that is the legislature in Albany. If you would like to have elected representatives they are the ones that
have to do it. We do not control that, but as long as I am on the Commission and if they keep electing me
Chairman and replacements come due we will consult with local government as I have done. That is all I
wanted to say.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thanks, Carl. Ok. Now anyone else, first go around, second go around,
third go around. Go ahead John.
MR. JOHN SALVADOR - Wasn't it Mr. Arnstein that mentioned this Lake George Mirror, I have copies of
that article for you, I do not know how many folks have read this, it was written by Mr. DeSantis's
predecessor Bill Hennessy in a letter to the Editor talking about the Lake George Park Commission and his
role in the initial re-constitution of the Commission. This letter to the editor I recognize as nothing more
than Republican bashing this Mr. Hennessy is a Democrat. It is significant that in this letter he does not
mention the role that Bob Placke played in all of this, because Bob Placke's name isn't mentioned. But, I
am glad to see that he did not mention Fran Walter name. Fran Walter our Town Supervisor at the time the
Commission was re-constituted was not supportive of the concept that Mr. ..talked about. She was dead
against it for the same reasons that you are hearing here tonight. She knew it was just another level of
bureaucracy it was going to cost the people money. I think the thing that we all tend to over look is that
Lake George is a public body of water it is a nagavitable water way of the State. It is a mode of
transportation a method of transportation it is just as important to us and the public as Route 9 or the
Northway. The traveling public has a right to use the waters of Lake George, obey the rules and use it.
Now, what we tend to do is we have a toil gate across the road and you cannot come in and play unless you
can lift the gate, you got to have the money to come in and play. This has become a private pond and its
just reserved for the people that can afford it and that cannot last, that cannot last the people of this State
have a right to use their assets and the DEC has been put in place by the State Legislature to protect those
assets and make them available, that is who should be doing this and we have this, we have this conflict.
But, anyway here are copies of that letter to the editor, I have a couple of extras, you have a copy ...
But Fran Walter is not mentioned here and you should know that she. I have a copy of a letter here I would
like to read that Fred Walter wrote to ... there is a connection here of this Park Commission with waste
water management that was going on in the middle nineteen eighties. If you folks remember there was a
first sewer project, came to town around 1978 and it was being further by the interests of the Lake George
Association. Everyone was scrambling around getting the lake George law changed to accommodate this
project. Bob Placke was a big player in this, he was Commissioner of the DEC at the time, Jack Mannix
was writing the legislation and it took just a matter of days to get things changed, just the way it went. But
anyway, they put the legislation in place that would prohibit, prohibit the construction of any new
municipal waste water treatment facilities in the Lake George Basin. And just allow the two existing
plants, Bolton and Lake George Village to continue to operate or be expanded. Now, what this was going
to do was force the big pipe, it was going to force the big pipe to Glens Falls with twenty two pumping
stations. That is the project that went down because they (tape turned.) Seqra was a new then seqra was
a relatively new law people didn't really understand it I guess and they decided that well, gee, what could
be the negative impact of the sewer project and so they neg. dec'd it and that went to court and so the
project was struck down. Immediately after that Court of Appeals decision the EP A Commission
consultant to do an environmental impact statement on this project and the results of that came out in 1984.
And that environmental impact statement said in so many words that it is probably not right to sewer the
whole basin because it is going to exacerbate development but there is no reason why you cannot go ahead
with small individual cluster community kinds of treatment system and discharge in the basin, and they
even gave us maps as to where we could do this and where some soil pockets were available. Upon the
issuance of that EIS Fran Walter went to work to try to get a waste water management plan in place in this
North Queensbury. I was instrumental in helping her do this, accomplish this as I was a Member of the
Lake George Association. And what she did she was she was trying to get changes to the lake George law
that would allow another municipal treatment plant in the basin because they were prohibited by the 1979
legislation that was passed to prohibit thern. When we wrote this, drafted this legislation our Town Board
passed the resolution supporting the changes to the Lake George law and went to Warren County Board of
Supervisors to be passed on to the State Legislature where it had to be enacted. Well, it ran into a little bit
of trouble because Mr. Placke and Mr. Hennssey thought maybe it was not the right thing to do. You see it
would let Queensbury off the hook, if we were be able to do that then we were off the hook. And how
would they justify the big pipe to Glens Falls it was their life long dream the big pipe the big...
commission, another commission more patronage jobs you know how it works.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-John you have got to move this along for us.
MR. SALVADOR-Yes, I am trying to. It is a hell ofa story Mr. Champagne
SUPERVISOR CHAMP AGNE-I spent half a day up on John's living room listening to that story back five
years ago. It is a good story, but
MR. SALVADOR-It is a danm good story because we are still involved in it today, we are still involved.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-We are here to discuss the Lake George Park Commission however.
MR. SALVADOR -Yes, I am getting to that.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Tonight. Lets get at it tonight.
MR. SALVADOR -. . . you will see. She tried to get this legislation passed and it went to Albany and it was
stopped, Mr. Hensche, had his foot on the hose Mr. Hensche and Mr. Placke are political allies. Foot on
the hose it did not go any place. But, Joe Rhoda, grabed this legislation and he got it passed up in the Town
of Dresdon to get the ... built, system in, he garbed it and used it up there. Joe Rhode did ok. In any case
that legislation hung around and the Park Commission bill was moving along and the Warren County
Board of Supervisors became the instrument that was going to get the whole thing rolling. In January of
1986 the Warren County Board of Supervisors formed a new committee and what they did was they
elevated a subcommittee to full committee status. They had a subcommittee called the Lake George Water
Levels Committee, was a three member committee and they met once in a while and talked about water
levels, I guess. What they did was promoted that committee to full committee status and called it the Lake
George Affairs Committee. That was organized as of January 1, 1986. The purpose of that committee was
to get this Park Commission bill moving. They stacked that Committee with Frank Leonbruno from Bolton
and Dick Bolton from Hague and Fran Walter from Queensbury, Lou Tessier, and Lloyd Demboski. Ok.
And Ham Robertson was our Chairman at that time, and this was all mentioned in that editorial there. Ok.
Well they worked a year and it, they did not make much progress so in 1987 the
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-John you have two minutes to finish.
MR. SALVADOR-Thank you. In 1987 they started to move and they were able to by late June they were
able to get things in a condition where they would move it to Albany. Now, what they did in the very last
week of this whole affair they joined the Park Commission bill with the changes to the Lake George law.
In Chapter 617 we have the changes to the lake George law that allows for in basin discharge. They joined
them in one bill. And that was the only way to get it through. And that is in there in section 10 I think it is
you will see it. So, anyway in all of this Fran Walter was not in favor of the Park Commission she was
very much in favor of a waste water management plan for North Queensbury. Do you remember the
meetings we had in the Old Fire House on the Second Floor.
MRS. LILLIAN ADAMSON-No. She and Dick Roberts wrote a letter I saw it we had a copy of it, against
it.
MR. SALVADOR-No, She took town,
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Folks we are not here to debate we are have him. One more minute, John.
We have to move forward.
MR. SALVADOR-Tom Nace, yes.ok.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-We are going to lose these people.
MR. SALVADOR-Lillian, Tom Nace was working for Rist Frost at the time he was the engineer. We met
on the second floor of the fire house next door and initiated the whole project. I do not have any more to
say.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thanks Anything else? Yes, Dave.
MR. DAVID KLEIN-To debate a few things that were said this evening also. I moved here because of the
quality of life. I enjoy the environment here good healthy environment, great school system, we should
have some more freedoms. I define the quality of life with freedom. Free from prosecution, and good
economic conditions and I think the last two points the Lake George Park Commission have spoiled my
quality of life. In the at least back in the early 70's New York State Health Dept. had waste water
regulations that the rest of the State has to comply with. They have a hundred foot set back from a body of
water. They have depending on what type of system you put in, as little as a foot ground cover. Lake
George Park Commission comes in with their own regulations that require two hundred foot set back a
hundred foot from a well, six, five, six feet of soil for.. . all property along the lake George Basin is rock
very shallow lots. Take a look at Sandy Bay, in this picture here, here is Rockhurst in Cleverdale there is
not six hundred feet across Cleverdale, there is not that much distance across Rockhurst. I doubt there is
any property in those two peninsula's that would meet the Lake George Park Commission regulations they
push you into a holding tank. I have..before I bought my property I had holding tanks installed on our
property because we could not meet the Lake George Park Commission regulations. They are unsanitary,
they are unhealthy, when the lake George Park Commission regulations got booted out of court all of a
sudden my property could conform to the new, the health department regulations. So, I went one step
further I bought a waste water treatment plant. I treat my waste water before it goes into the leach field.
They also brag about their survey. How they get this ninety eight percent approval rating, well I responded
to the survey I do not think my response has got .. the results but reading through it you could see the
questions and answers were developed to get a specific response. The one thing that they do not mention,
twenty eight percent of the respondents were local residents. Fifty five buoys in Sandy Bay last year there
was like the low thirties? This year they put a few more in. All those buoys are way out in the middle of
the lake how is a six year old that does not swim get into the shallow water? There is like four buoys that
are reasonably close for kids to go swimming. That is all, thank you.
SUPERVISOR CHAMP AGNE- Thanks, Dave. Anyone else? Anything from the Board I guess we have
saturated the audience. Unless Mr. Salvador has something more to say. Yes, Sir, Paul.
MR. PAUL HILLMAN-I am Paul Hillman from Cleverdale, New York Just up a little piece here. I have
been around Lake George for quite a few years, so I think what I first ..was around 1918. Well, 1918 the
water was cold as the devil then and it is still cold. I am not missing. . . I can tell you that. You have got a
big problem here, before these gentlemen. It has been a problem for a long while, I happen to know a little
bit about it I know certain things John has been talking about and I agree with a lot of them because we
threw seventy nine million dollars into it but that is over the bank now that is only money. But what I think
what we will have to do is to support Mr. DeSantis here and his group and I think some of the things that
they could do, to set meetings like we are doing here with all the towns surrounding the lake and then get
together with one program if you have duplicate programs just do away with them. Have one program for
each town whether it is the State or County or the Park Commission so everybody knows what John is
complaining about eliminate some of that. I think if you do that because you have got to have the
Commission because when I came up here back even in twenty three there wasn't very many people here.
You had a horse and buggy out through here then, some of you fellows know that. But, I think you are
going to have to take and get your group together all over and have one body to do it and have the
regulations for all the towns be the same because you have thousands of people come here. Back in twenty
three and eighteen there was not that many people here you know. A lot of people do not know all the
places in moving that we had here. I think if you can get together, I am not repeating myself and have a
committee maybe from each one of the towns where you got duplicate regulations get rid of the whole
danm thing, and then I think you could notify the people the property owners anyway with the regulations
they have to live by around the lake. We have had them piece meal but I think we should have a book
written up so we all know what they are. We have got, I have seen a lot of new comers since I lived here
since 1950, well there are a lot of new comers, coming in all the while. On my road I was alone for years
now I cannnot even back out of my garage there are so many people. A guy almost hit met the other day he
was looking at the lake and I was looking at one of the girls going down to the bathing beaches, we had a
problem that's all. It was a good thing my wife was not watching me that is a sure thing. She would
probably said why didn't move quicker you know. But that is it, but I think that is what you ought to do
you have got a big problem, people is your big problem you do not have the people you do not have the
problem. I think you have got a big job. . doing it . . get out, I think everybody in here taxpayers, non
taxpayers if you pay rent you pay your taxes. People say if they pay rent you do not pay taxes well they do
not know what they are talking about. I think you have to get at it and get this work done so it will
eliminate some of the problems you have heard here already tonight, or you are going to hear the same
thing allover. Try to get it down and get it cleared up and keep at it. Myoid friend General George
Patton used to say ... givem the hell boys and keep them going. So, that is what we have got to do, we have
to give the hell and keep them going and get the problem solved and then I think you will never going to
have everybody happy but to get the majority happy why then you will be doing a darn good job. That is
all I have got to say.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thanks Paul.
COUNCILMAN MERRILL-Paul I do not think anybody could summarize better than you do summarize.
It is clearly a complex issue that we are dealing with here I think open discussion and open debate is
healthy and thats what we have had a lot of tonight. I really appreciate all the inputs that we received and
have made notes here and I will certainly take it to heart. I am sure Fred and the rest of the board will. We
want to drive ahead, thank you Paul we will give them hell.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-One of the items I think that is critical certainly in reference to some of the
comments that Paul made is this whole storm water issue. I want to compliment my good friend Dick here
for doing all that he has done working diligently with the Lake George Park Commission and maybe Mike
you might want to add a couple of comments relative to where we are to that and where we see ourselves
going and how we can fit this all together. I got to tell you in all honesty when the Park Commission first
put together the Storm Water Regs. I was not very pleased and I made that very well known that I felt again
that it was coming from the elitist group, you know if you got the pocket book you can join the storm water
crowd. I felt very strongly that we need to take a second look at that and we did and through Dick's efforts
I really believe that we are on course of action now that is going to do precisely what Mr. Hillman related
to, and that is get all of the communities together, lets buy into this program that we believe, and it is
mostly an educational program based plan. I do not know Mike whether you want to just give us an update
on that so that we can all understand where we are?
MR. MIKE WHITE-We have been working, I guess to promote the best side of a program that encourages
public education and provides for standards and is consistent across the water. These are a local progrative,
we will see these programs we think in place in the towns such as Queensbury and Bolton ahead. We think
lake George and Hague that had landuse programs and are active in this and we will try to balance that with
similar standards throughout the water shed for communities who do not have a land use program, that
because of they are remote, major or other choices do not want to get involved in that. We think these are
workable, they are achievable, affordable ways to prevent some of the problems that we see now manifest
in the lake from development that happened years ago. Then we need to now go back and find ways to
correct as well. So, it is an important area for water fowl they have real impacts on people that live along
the lake. It is very important as the basin increasing has settle the areas around there are settled that we not
repeat the mistakes of the past, especially because it seems unnecessary, when through education, solid
standards and coordination and cooperation we can achieve much better results. Thank you.
COUNCILMAN MERRILL-Just to follow up on that there has been a very active ad hoc storm water
committee made up of representatives from all the communities around the lake. Chris Round from the
Town of Queensbury and I have been active on that. Our intent from the Town of Queensbury is to
establish a set of best practices and to incorporate them in to our town code so it could be administrator
through our Code Enforcement Officer, so that would be Chris Round. So, we are trying to retain control
of that within the Town.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Ok. Unless someone else has some finishing remarks, Yes. Dave.
MR. DAVID KLEIN -Yes, the current storm water regulations if I am not mistaken had a five hundred
square foot garage you would have to put catch basins and dry wells in to collect all the water coming off
the roof. . five hundred feet. A small garage is going to do very little to pocket a lot of run off into the lake.
Your major sources of pollution caused by runoff are from roads, the sand that goes onto the roads. State
and Towns are the major source of your run off. ..why are we addressing garages? That is not a problem a
significant problem.
SUPERVISOR CHAMP AGNE-I think that was my point in the original regs or best practices whatever
you want to call them I think that is what we are trying to modify and to better establish in terms of you
know where are the major contributors for the seriousness of the problem. Is it the guy
MR. KLEIN- Why... to begin with Fred?
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Well you got to get to the towns we have got to get to the villages we have
got to get to the State it all trickles down and maybe, and I guess my argument back then and I do not mean
to repeat myself here but you know I live just south of 149 and when I first read those storm water regs
back then and this goes back a good couple of years ago I guess it was it was hard for me to believe that the
guy, Fred Champagne or Dave or whom ever owns a piece of property on the north side of 149 had to
follow the same regs the same standards as the same guy, another guy who is building a house right up on
the shore of the lake. By the time my water got to the lake I would have to believe it would be a little more
pure than what just came out of your septic tank, so if that was a problem I had with it you know they
listened they heard what I had to say. We put the brakes on it the Board of Supervisors said whoa wait a
minute, time out, yea we need more time to really analyze this and I think through Dick's efforts and others
that have sat down put our heads together we are working that through. I think we are going to find
something out there we can all live with. Yes.
MR. CHARLES ADAMSON-What is the status of the storm water study you did two years ago, the last I
heard I asked somebody about it, it was pretty much dead.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Is this the one at Clev
MR. ADAMSON-At Cleverdale, Assembly Point and this area,
COUNCILMAN MERRILL-It is very active as a resource document and if you recall we identified ten
key areas that needed remediation and
MR. ADAMSON -Yea, I don't know all ten but I know the number one, one.
COUNCILMAN MERRILL-Cleverdale road.
MR. ADAMSON-No, I think Assembly Point Road, as I recall it.
UNKNOWN-Cleverdale Road you have the money way, you are trying to get away with the fear of some
of these people here, your Attorney is holding up we have the money for you the LGA, please, when can
we get that work done?
UNKNOWN-We will take about it Thursday, we have a grant request in.
UNKNOWN-An environmental grant for the Cleverdale road...
UNKNOWN-We have requested two hundred thousand ...
COUNCILMAN MERRILL-It is targeted for next year.
SUPERVISOR CHAMP AGNE- That is going to happen.
COUNCILMAN MERRILL-It is going to happen.
UNKNOWN-As Charlie said probably the worst pollutant
MR. ADAMSON-Assembly Point Road.
UNKNOWN-Assembly Point Road here again the .. . foundation with the LGA' s direction will make
money available the State will make money this can be done if we all get together. But, please ..their
Attorney don't dot the I's. The LGA has gotten from the ... around six hundred thousand dollars and we
hope to get considerably more this year. I say over half of that maybe ... better over half of that has been
gone to the Town of Lake George they say cooperate since ..bring this up and vote they are getting the
money why isn't our Town getting the money? I will kill myself trying to get it written in. But why should
Mary Arthur and the rest of the people there fight to put it before the . . and say approve it and the money is
still sitting there year, after year. It does not make sense.
SUPERVISOR CHAMP AGNE- There is a fifty
MR. SALVADOR-Those towns have real problems with run off, going in the lake.
UNKNOWN-We do too.
SUPERVISOR CHAMP AGNE- Time out, this gentlemen here in the back...
UNKNOWN-A couple of things ..Park Commission was thought about back in 87' and ...it is amazing to
me that you know, people talk about the guy on Ridge Road the guy on Dunhams Bay about you know
where you eliminated the sewer system which ninety percent federal funding for... (new tape )..five days a
year and there is piles of salt on the Pilot Knob road going right in the lake. I have paid my dues. We have
LGA members dumping tons of fertilizer on our lawns and right into the Lake every day and it is ok and
we have tons of people that have five year old septic systems but I am a member I am one of the old guys
and my system doesn't leak. My system doesn't run to lake George unfortunately four hundred feet from
the lake phosphate still run to Lake George and my ..will say that. If you live in a ..lawn you eliminate soil
erosion you get these people to get off their ass and build, the millionaires ..build a decent septic system.
My system is four hundred feet from the lake it is a sealed system it cost me ten thousand dollars to put it in
when I could barely even eat. Lets get our act together quit this character here he bores people to death the
guy Ridge Road he ties up the whole court system and we are not acting on the issues.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-We are still in court unfortunately, you are right, you are absolutely right.
MRS. CHARLES ADAMSON-The salt issue, the salt issue really can be resolved in the winter time
because there is another salt that is less damaging it cost more..
UNKNOWN-You do not need any salt in Colorado, Wyoming, I lived in Colorado for several years, they
do not salt their roads, it is nuts to salt the roads, they sand them, you slow down a little bit, you know what
if you don't slow down you crash it is as simple as that.
SUPERVISOR CHAMP AGNE- I guess we can say, good evening, good job, and thank you so much for
being with us and I am sure we will take this under consideration.
Respectfully submitted,
Miss Darleen M. Dougher
Town Clerk