1998-11-09
REGULAR TOWN BOARD MEETING
NOVEMBER 9, 1998
7:10 P.M.
MTG#59
BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT
SUPERVISOR FRED CHAMPAGNE
COUNCILMAN RICHARD MERRILL
COUNCILMAN THEODORE TURNER
COUNCILMAN DOUGLAS IRISH
COUNCILMAN PLINEY TUCKER
TOWN OFFICIALS
HIGHWAY SUPERINTENDENT, P AUL NAYLOR
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT, CHRIS ROUND
PLANNER, LAURA MOORE
COUNTY SUPERVISORS
NICK CAIMANO
RONALD MONTESI
DENNIS BROWER
PRESS
POST STAR
PUBLIC HEARING
COMPREHENSIVE LAND USE PLAN
SUPERVISOR CHAMP AGNE- This is really an extension of a meeting that was called to order at six
o'clock this evening. What I'd like to do is move right into the public hearing the Comprehensive Land Use
Plan. Again, I appreciate all of you being here this evening it is my opinion it is certainly a good
representation of our community. This will be one of the first of those that are extended from about five
years ago now when we first got into this. With this said I'm going to introduce my good friend Chris
Round who has been the navigator of this plan throughout the past year and a half, Chris since you've been
with us with that said it's in your court.
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, CHRIS ROUND-Thank you very much. As Fred said, I'm Chris Round, I'm
Director of Community Development here at the Town of Queensbury. The Town of Queensbury
Comprehensive Land Use Plan presents
a vision for development for the Town of Queensbury, identifies issues that have been voiced by public
committees. The Town appointed a Citizens Committee in 1994 to undertake the development of this plan.
The Committee complied information, met with neighborhood groups, identified and addressed issues
along the way and they developed a plan that's in front of you tonight. If you haven't seen it we have
several copies that are over on the table next to the entrance. The draft document was originally presented
to the public in August this year to generally favorable reviews. We had two informational sessions an
afternoon and evening session which were well attended. Tonight's public hearing on the plan is conducted
to illicit additional comment and satisfy procedural requirements of Town Law. Briefly, the plan is divided
into three major sections. Section one, is Town wide plan. Section two, is Town wide inventory. Section
three, is a neighborhood section. Section one identifies town wide land use goals and objectives and
suggested regulatory recommendations this sections brings together issues that were common across the
town. They were issues that were identified during neighborhood meetings. They were issues that were
identified as part of the Land Use Plan Committee meetings. They are issues that many of you are familiar
with and this was a means to solidify those issues and document them. Section two presents a physical
profile of the Town demographics, geography, environmental background, geology, an inventory of
municipal services, water, sewer, highways, recreational facilities, etc., it is not unique to comprehensive
plans it is simply a main component of a plan. Section three presents the geographic subdivisions of the
town as we identify as neighborhoods. There are fourteen in total and each neighborhood presents a
general characteristics of the neighborhood. It's historic development, its current conditions, current land
use issues, and continues recommendations to address particular issues. The town was divided into
neighborhoods on the basis of. . .. districts and geography to allow examination of more local issues and to
allow for better community involvement. The Comprehensive Land Use Plan Committee conducted
meetings at the neighborhood level to identify those local issues and those more specific issues that affect
individuals verses the town in total. Just to let you know there are several handouts tonight I know many of
you have picked them up already. There is a handout titled, The Comprehensive Planning Process it
identifies what is required of plans. It identifies some suggested formats and it is a very good tool
produced by Pace University. There is an eleven by seventeen map of the town identifying select
recommendations it identifies the neighborhoods that's the plan that presented on the easel in front us. Not
all of the recommendations are summarized on here, but some key ones and some ones that are particular
interest to most of the members that are here tonight. A sununary of the Comprehensive Plan is presented
as a stand alone document that's this document right here was presented at the informational meetings it
presents both a summary of the town wide recommendations and regulatory recommendations. It is
identical to what the town wide section component of the Comprehensive Plan. What's new tonight is the
version of this figure that I have before you and an Implementation Plan that's this document here that
many of you have already picked up. It's a Draft Implementation Plan for the Town of Queensbury 1998
Comprehensive Plan. The Implementation Plan presents a summary of all the goals and recommendations
identified in the plan. Every single recommendation is identified in this document right here. It is not
identified or expanded upon this isn't a draft state we intend to revise this Implementation Plan to distinctly
identify all recommendations so that you would be able to walk away knowing what all the issues and what
all the goals of the Comprehensive Plan are by picking up this single document. Town wide there were
nine town wide goals general or broad in nature. From these nine goals approximately forty strategies or
methods or mechanisms to affect the goals are identified. Some strategies are clearly defined are tangible
for example, let's develop a Stormwater Management Ordinance, some are very general or intangible, let's
promote communication between communities to examine consolidation of municipal services those are
the town wide goals. The town wide goals we actually generated forty strategies or forty action plans, or
forty different methods to follow up on some recommendations. There were approximately seventy
recommendations identified at the neighborhood level ranging from recommended changes and allowed
use, zoning intensity, to infrastructure improvements or extensions or other issues that are affected at the
local level. There is an overlap between neighborhood and town wide level recommendations the
Implementation Plan will solidify the recommendations of the plan allow us to assign responsibility of
specific recommendations and allow us to track the efforts in effecting these recommendations. The
Implementation Plan and the Comprehensive Land Use Plan are working documents that is they are subject
to revision, to improvement, and to additions as the community seems necessary. By law we are obligated
to find a time period when the plan will be reviewed and updated and within the plan it has been
recommended that we utilize a five year time window for that purpose. I would like to just touch on the
nine town wide goals that were identified in the plan. Goall. To protect and maintain rural character and
visual quality of the town. Goal 2. Protect natural resources of the town. Often you could group goal one
and goal two together. A lot of the things that are going to protect both the character and quality are also
going to protect natural resources. Goal 3. Provide opportunities for economic growth. Goal 4. Plan for
impacts of growth on traffic network. Goal 5. Provide residential opportunities which consider the income
levels of area residents and the capability of land and infrastructure to support development. That's a pretty
broad goal within the strategies it does define what does that goal mean? That means let's examine
providing housing opportunities for lower or disadvantage economic individuals and also look at the
density development on existing properties and make sure those developments are occurring at specific
intensity that the land will allow us to do. Goal 6. Continue to provide a range of recreational
opportunities. The town has done a considerable amount of recreation planning and the Comprehensive
Land Use Plan Committee supported those efforts and sought to spur on those recommendations in that
plan. Goal 7. Provide a range of cultural and historical opportunities. That again is another broad goal and
there are strategies that were identified as part of that recommendation. Goal 8. Coordinate development
of potential growth areas of town. That again is a broad goal, but is a goal that I can identify with. The
Comprehensive Plan Committee identified let's examine our current entrances to Town. The Quaker Road
corridor, Route 9 corridor, million dollar half mile, Bay Road corridor select corridors that really are key
identifiers of our community. How can we improve those, how can we expand on those, how can we utilize
those corridors to identify Queensbury bring identity to the Town of Queensbury and how can we protect
those corridors as transportation routes. How can we expand on economic development opportunities in
the Quaker Road corridor, Dix Avenue corridor. There is a tremendous amount of work to be done in order
to affect that goal that is going to be some of the major tasks that lies ahead of the Town in the years to
come. Goal 9. Very broad goal when that was to pursue regional cooperation that was one of those
intangibles that I mentioned previously. But, it is voiced by the citizenry of the Town of Queensbury that
regional cooperation is necessary for our continued enjoyment of the quality of life that we enjoy to
continue with regional economic development efforts. To expand upon consolidation of services with
local municipalities in order to reduce our tax burden. Basically that's some of the broad based goals that
are again those are reiterated in the Implementation Plan. The Implementation Plan is draft in nature it
does identify if you look at the plan briefly, if you have it in your hand, it identifies each goal with a
specific identifier goal one through nine. It identifies each neighborhood recommendation with a specific
identifier so that within the plan you will be able to refer to a recommendation identify it on a map or
identify it as a stand alone strategy that you will then be able to track. The Implementation Plan does
provide for start and finish dates for each of the goals or action items. It identifies involved parties and
responsible parties that are designated to carry out specific recommendations. It also quickly identifies the
resources or partners or cross-references who may facilitate effecting these goals. It is an important
document and I would invite everybody to examine it more closely, provide feedback on the
Implementation Plan because that is something that in the months ahead we will be refining and we will
seek assignment of responsibility and there will be additional involvement of citizenry to participate in
those projects. With that hand out it was in short supply we went back to make copies we have revised the
drawings that were in the Draft Comprehensive Plan. The first drawing is the neighborhood sections that
you can take home with you. Then each of the recommendations that were contained in the plan if there
was zoning corrections or specific issues that had a map reference that goal is identified in the drawing. If
you live in a particular neighborhood and you realize that you may be impacted by a specific
recommendation that you can look at that on a map that you can take home with you then give us additional
feed back. With that I'd like to turn it back over to the Supervisor to open up the public hearing and get
some feed back.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thanks Chris. Before we get into that I just saw one of our staff leave she
just went over. . . . .
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MR. ROUND-Laura left to make some additional drawings because we didn't
know how much by participation we have here tonight we have a pretty good turnout.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Yes. I'd like also if you would introduce members of your Land Use
Committee.
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MR. ROUND-I'll introduce Roger Ruel is here. Roger maybe you can make a
brief statement and introduce some of the members that are in attendance tonight.
MR. RUEL-It's a tough act to follow. I think Chris must of read the whole document page for page he
certainly spelled it out. I'd like to go back to 1994 that's when the Land Use Plan was first started Jim
Martin was then the Director of Community Development. As Chris had indicated earlier the Town was
divided into fourteen neighborhoods and at that time firehouses were selected throughout the town to have
these neighborhood meetings. They were advertised and the citizens were invited to come into these
meetings and to express their views, their likes, dislikes about the neighborhood in which they lived or the
town if they wanted to make a comment. These comments were then documented and we have them I
think at the end of the plan and the back of the plan. These comments then were given to the Advisory
Board. This Advisory Board is that we reviewed the material and advised the Town Board with the
recommendations. The issues were translated into recommendations each issue is reviewed constantly over
and over again after all we had meetings since 1994 so we spent a lot of time at a lot of meetings reviewing
issues and translating these issues into recommendations. Recommendations that could then be again
translated into either changes in zone or whatever had to be done. The Advisory Board members and
others who gave of their time over a period of several issues, three and a half years actually were and I have
to name them because these are your neighbors. Larry Clute, Deborah Roberts, John Salvador, Michael
Vasiliou, Laverne Fagel, Elizabeth Valenti, John Walker, and Richard Merrill. Richard Merrill was the
original Chairman of the group, I think he was Chairman for several years until he got this position and I
inherited the job. Others who served on part of this process were John Boor, Fred Carvin, Joe Roulier, Tim
Watkins, Karen Summer, additional support was received from Helen Otte, Marilyn Van Dyke and Leon
Steves. Of course, we also had input beyond what the citizens had given us. We had input from the Town
Supervisor, the Town Board members, and from various groups in the town. The Highway Department,
Parks and Recreation etc., all these people had input and we again took these as issues which we then
translated into recommendations. The first plan was called a Master Plan they used to call them Master
Plans and then they got fancy with the Comprehensive Land Use Plan was completed in 1966 but was
never adopted the Master Plan in 1989 was then adopted. This latest plan that we have a draft this is a draft
takes into consideration some of the same problems encountered back in 1989 plus additional problems due
to the diminishing buildable land in town. The areas in which we can do things have really shrunk and it
creates some additional problems that did not exist back in 1989. Other major factors considered by the
Advisory Board were not necessarily in this order, but they were to protect the rural character of the town
as Chris had indicated, provide opportunities for economic growth and plan for increase traffic conditions.
Specific recommendations included buffer zones, architectural review at the commercial level, landscape
standards, sign regulations, and noise ordinance, plus a. . .. . and reduction of the present number of
residential zones. This is what we did on the Advisory Board then we documented all of this into draft.
This draft I know that Chris will be looking at this draft and he has some good ideas on making updates,
making some changes which will make it a lot easier to implement the plan. Now, I say it is up to
Queensbury citizens and the Town Board to put this plan into effect. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Now I would like to open it up unless you have something more to add
Chris are we ready to open it up to the public.
BERNARD RAHILL-Wincrest Drive, Queensbury. I live in a nice neighborhood made up of doctors,
lawyers, engineers, college professors, school administrators, business people, teachers. Most of them are
college graduates all of them are aware of the communal inequities created by our town government. All of
these people are also highly capable of answering a questionnaire about what they consider to be their
personal interest. They are well aware of how they would like Queensbury to look in the year two
thousand and beyond. They want to end urban sprawl and to keep as much open space as possible. They
want companies or corporations who invest in Queensbury to obey the same kinds of zoning rules and
taxation regulations with which they have to comply. They want to see more trees and vegetation in our
community and not less. They fear the onslaught of uncontrolled traffic in their residential areas. They
want to protect clean air, clean water, and the scenic vistas that are basic to a livable community. They do
not want more construction of new homes when and point of fact some of their own homes have been on
the real estate market for four or five years. They would love to have a Town Board whose members plan
with protection of family culture uppermost in their minds. The Queensbury Schools are already crowded
and the tax rate is high. When Fred Champagne and the Queensbury Town Board passed the Indian Ridge
Plan Unit Development on Fox Farm Road off Aviation Road near Queensbury Public Schools and
construction began in earnest on classrooms to be jammed higher taxes were inevitably to be the result of
more space for children in schools and it made it harder for people living in Queensbury. There are also a
multiplicity of older homes and buildings for sale in our region that have been on the market for years as
I've said before. The residents owners of these apartments and buildings should have precedent over
Johnny come lately developers. They should be given ample opportunity to rent and to sell their properties
before the county and the town approve a glut of new and unnecessary development such as an expansion
of Indian Ridge. We must share the wealth by reining in Queensbury's hyper development and by helping
other towns to move towards the construction of all kinds of housing and commercial and industrial
properties on an equal par with Queensbury. Visionary and measured regional planning is the only way to
conserve open space. To preserve the beauty of our region to provide adequate parks and recreational
facilities in each town and to save the quality of life that every family in Queensbury deserves. If we
continue on the present irrational path of hyper development in Queensbury all of our roads will have been
paved the Water Treatment Plant will have been enlarged again the sewerage will have been installed all of
the housing developments will have been filled in and all of the malls with flaunt their wares along
Aviation, Quaker Road, and Route 9. What will the people who live in Queensbury have between Glens
Falls and Lake George a blacktop jungle. I publicly spoke to Supervisor Champagne and to Planning
Director Round and admonished them to prepare a rational survey, questionnaire on planning and zoning to
send to each of the homeowners in Queensbury. My objective was to see our town government guided by
the honest wishes of our residents and not by the selfish whims of developers. Fred Champagne response
to me was, we're not interested in politics Mr. Rahill. Well Abraham Lincoln said, "Government of the
people by the people and for the people shall not perish from this earth". In the case of Queensbury it has
already been destroyed because a group of avaricious, irrational and... ..Town Boards have not allowed the
people to directly participate in the planning process at the most important stages of the towns
development.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Anybody else?
TOM DORR, CROWNWOOD LANE-Neighborhood six. I have just gone through the Implementation
Plan here and I notice on here Item 6.2. Re-evaluate the Rural Residential Zone examine higher density. I
am very concerned about this I thought we put this issue to rest at the Indian Ridge situation. I feel that my
neighborhood is already overcrowded the traffic congestion at Dixon and Aviation is terrible. I am very
concerned about the environmental impact of this item I urge the board to remove it from my
neighborhood. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you.
ATTORNEY MIKE O'CONNOR-Mr. Supervisor, Gentlemen, I have a couple questions and they may be
answered and I apologize if they are. What I have had to look at was the Comprehensive Land Use Plan I
did not look at your Implementation Plan they are out of copies over there right now. Basically, I had
problems finding what you were going to do based upon this document which appears to be a set of
recommendations. I can't really analyze what the impact will be or not be until I actually see what you are
going to do. I say that in general sense I think there are a lot of things in there that a lot of people would be
concerned about. You are talking about a noise ordinance I haven't seen a draft or know if there is a draft.
How does it affect existing operations as well as brand new operations? I think before I would feel
comfortable saying I'm in favor of a Comprehensive Land Use Plan which has as one of his premises a
premise that you would adopt a noise ordinance I would like to see that noise ordinance to know how it is
going to affect it. I think one of the good tenants of a Comprehensive Land Use Plan is to make things
clear to people that are presently in the town. People that are coming into town what they will face as far as
their obligations are to qualify and to satisfy the requirements that are put upon them in this particular
interest I think you fail to do that. There is also an indication in here that you are going to develop a marine
overlay plan. I think there are a lot of people that have express concern about some of the commercial
marine operations that are in existence and how that will affect them and how many potentials would affect
them as far as expansion, right of expansion that you would set forth. Again, it's kind of like a lofty
standard here but there is no detail and the devils and the detail are whatever. I think that's a fair statement
to know where you are going to go. The other thing and I refer to a page, page 1-10 you are talking about
developing a office service zone and you are talking about apparently Bay Road. There seems to be a carry
over between neighborhood four and neighborhood eight. There is an odd shape triangular piece which I
have a personal interest in which is right across the street here that is district four and presently is zoned
for office or multi-family use. I'm not sure that if in your recommendations here we are talking about the
Bay Road corridor and changing the apparent intent of that is to have office space as opposed to further
multiple family operations or apartments whether or not you include that triangular piece because you don't
change it from the neighborhood four to neighborhood eight. I would be opposed personally to that it's an
option that's there now it is an option that's been there. They have proven by testing directly across the
street from here that the soil will support that type development. I have no intention of developing that
land in that manner at this time, but I hate to give up an option if there is no sound environmental reason for
me to give up that option. I think the change in soil occurs about a half mile down Bay Road from the
corner of Blind Rock Road and Bay Road about where the entrance to the farm operation is there. Soils in
that apartment complex back there change to a heavy clay, but up here they are all a good sand, gravel, the
same as what's across the street. If this is based upon environmental standards then I think you need to be a
little more specific then what you've been in the broad brush approach. Again, I think it is a matter of
knowing how you are going to implement some of the recommendations. I think the recommendations are
good, but until we actually see how you are going to implement them and how it is going to have an impact
it's hard to make a real firm statement on it. The statement here is that the area has developed as offices
and has septic limitations that are not favorable for multi-family development. There are no septic
limitations across the street that I'm aware of and that's about a hundred acre parcel of land.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Chris you want to explain a little more in detail in terms of where we are
generally kind of generically verses the specifics and the detail. We're looking at a skeleton kind of thing
here so we want to clear that up Mike I think early on that's a good question.
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MR. ROUND-Two points I'd like to make. One is that some of the formatting
changes that I have made that is not available to you tonight and I apologize is clarification what
recommendations affect which parcels. Two, and more importantly, is I think what Mr. Champagne was
getting at is this is a Comprehensive Plan there is a public hearing tonight the Town Board chooses to adopt
or act on this plan that any of the recommendations are again discretionary actions by a Town Board
whether the Town Board chooses to adopt a noise ordinance or not that is something that I would assume
establish a committee or give direction to the Planning Department to draft and ordinance identify the
issues at that you would be able to see what are the details associated with a noise ordinance. If it is a
proposal for the development of Bay Road as an office professional area that would involve further
consideration of specifics. What are the design constraints, what are the environmental conditions, what
does the town want this area to look like. It is not clearly spelled out in this plan, but that is something that
has been voiced for years by citizenry that's something that the Comprehensive Land Use Plan Committee
put to paper and would like to see the town act on. Again, there may be details, there may be changes that
are going to be made throughout that process but that is still going to take some work. I think hopefully
through those two changes number one through some formatting changes we will be able to clarify some
personal properties impacts. Through knowledge of what the process is from here we will be able to soften
some concerns from people that don't know what is actually going to happen once we adopt the document.
ATTORNEY O'CONNOR-Is there a document other than this that is before the board for consideration?
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MR. ROUND-I've developed a Draft Implementation Plan and then Laura
Nowicki of my offices is making some more copies we didn't anticipate the attendance tonight.
ATTORNEY O'CONNOR-Which would be the actual Land Use Plan?
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MR. ROUND-No. Any rezonings are going to separate action will happen at a
different time. There is no rezoning in front of the board tonight it is simply a public hearing on the plan
itself.
ATTORNEY O'CONNOR-I understand that, but is there a Comprehensive Land Use Plan that's before the
board or will be before the board tonight?
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MR. ROUND-When you say Comprehensive Land Use Plan as a revision of
the proposed uses there is not.
ATTORNEY O'CONNOR-I go back to the 1988 Land Use Plan.
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MR. ROUND-What they identify as a Land Use Plan was a computation of
design criteria or environmental conditions, slopes, etc., a valuation of suitability of development that's not
part of this document. What you saw was an... ..suitability analysis which is these areas are suitable for
high density development, these areas are suitable, that is not a component of this plan.
ATTORNEY O'CONNOR-Sounds like a lawyer the way he answered me. The other thing we've all been
waiting for and I think everybody has been kind of waiting for this to come through so that we can make
some specific changes that we know that are out there I don't see any attempt to go to that laundry list. You
have a requirement that you can't have a single family garage in excess of nine hundred square feet it has
just become a problem with the bigger houses we need to take that square footage limitation off. That
came about when you threw the baby out with the water because of somebody that used a large garage for a
commercial purpose that's an enforcement issue it is not a zoning issue. The other thing in neighborhood
four you recognize and acknowledge that most of the lots on Glen Lake are fifty foot lots. We've got some
new lake shore, lake side, shoreline setback requirements and distance requirements which I honestly think
aren't working. If most of your lots are fifty foot lots and you have people with the fifty foot lot you are
required to have twelve foot on each side which is a twenty four foot set aside. You figure that most people
build with a six inch wall so you got two walls you are talking about twenty five feet of setback or twenty
five feet of set aside on a fifty foot lot even if you try to configure a cigar type shape home there you got
twenty five feet of living space that's not working for most, most people are coming in with a reasonable
application talking about eight, nine, foot setbacks on fifty foot lots. I think the board is thankfully granting
those requirements because in most cases they are improvements to existing conditions, but it is much more
realistic than what we've got. I don't know if we should continue zoning it so that every lot that is going to
be developed needs to come forth for a variance as opposed to taking a look at what the standard or what
the medium happens to be. Again, that's getting into specifics which is not into this thing and I understand
that's not into this thing at all. You also got some fallacies I think in your statement there. You are saying
some residents use lake water particularly the Glen Lake area for drinking though the percentage appears
small. I'm not sure the basis of your understanding, but I think the percentage is high. It is probably a
small percentage that use lake water for drinking without some type of filtration and the filtration system
vary from very sophisticated ones to very unsophisticated ones. I think most of those people that are there
a good deal of number of people there use that for portable water which is also going to become a problem
if they continue to have the zebra mussel input that they have there. If you are taking water from the lake it
is predicted that you are going to not have a working system within a couple years because of zebra
mussels unless you take some specific filtration or system or some type of program for that. There may be
a need if this is your Comprehensive Land Use Plan to really seriously take a look at getting town water
there sooner than later. The other thing out of curiosity when you talk about Round Pond you talk about a
Karner Blue Butterfly habitat I never heard of that before is there a location of that some place on Round
Pond? I'mjust curious it is mentioned throughout that neighborhood, but I am curious to know where it is
or where it isn't.
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MR. ROUND-I can't speak specifically about Round Pond, but a separate
consultant did recently completed a Karner Blue Butterfly habitat assessment for the town as part of
another project that occurred in town and that information is available for that I'm not sure that it included
the Round Pond area.
ATTORNEY O'CONNOR-All that I have seen is old studies that raise questions of possible habitats.
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MR. ROUND-A physical assessment has been performed it was completed
within the last three or four months.
COUNCILMAN MERRILL-There is a report I believe at the town office it should in the Planning Office
somewhere. There was a formal report prepared and that work was done within the past year and the
habitat identified.
ATTORNEY O'CONNOR-So we will see something more specific before you go forward?
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Absolutely.
COUNCILMAN MERRILL-We're here to listen Fred.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-We're here to listen tonight absolutely. I'm saying in the future before at
least in my opinion we need some more meetings just of this type before we get into ordinances and
developing the future plan that's how I see it. I don't know maybe I've got some other board members here
who see it differently.
COUNCILMAN MERRILL-My concern is we're looking at the plan as presented and this identifies a lot of
issues. The point was not to resolve the issues, but to raise them.
ATTORNEY O'CONNOR-I don't think that's the purpose of the Comprehensive Land Use Plan from a
planning point of view with due respect. The Comprehensive Land Use Plan as my understanding of it is
to set forth a long term set of goals for the town. It is not to simply say you got these issues without
potential uses and it is for us to give you input after you tell us what you think those goals are whether we
agree with you or disagree with you.
COUNCILMAN MERRILL-Mike, I think you might want to pick up a copy of this which has the goals
over on the table.
MR. RUEL-Mr. Champagne perhaps you could give some explanation here. We we're the Advisory Board
we came up with a draft this is a draft from this I expected we will have a final version. What will this final
version contain that the draft doesn't have? Then once you have the final version what will the Town Board
do with this?
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Chris I'm going to turn it back over to you. It is my opinion, it is my
opinion that we will at that point, I see this as a skeleton. I see this draft coming to me today as a skeletal
version of a Comprehensive Land Use Plan. We need to take what I consider to be the generalities that are
coming from this along with the specifics and we need to add the flesh to it. I think when we get into the
ordinances, zoning regulations that comes later on down the line that's going to take us a year or so to put
that in place. Is that what we understand Chris as being the next step?
MR. RUEL-Would we then modify the plan to contain what you just mentioned over a period ofa year will
you keep modifying a plan until you come up with a document that is more than just a recommendation?
SUPERVISOR CHAMP AGNE-I hear him say that the recommendation to remove multi-family let's take
that as an example, remove multi-family dwellings from Bay Road is that one of the recommendations that
I read in here?
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MR. ROUND-One recommendation was to restrict additional multi-family
residential development until sewers were in place for Bay Road.
SUPERVISOR CHAMP AGNE- To me I need to hear more information on the justification and the rational
for doing that, that's something I need to have before I can move in that direction is that basically Dick
where you are at?
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MR. ROUND-The plan that was developed in eighty nine was a reaction to
intensity of development that was occurring at the time so that the main focus of that plan was how do we
address the impacts of the developments that are our concern. That was basically a tool to justify a revision
in the Zoning Ordinance if you recall the Zoning Ordinance came before the plan occurred. To confuse a
Comprehensive Plan with a tool for rezoning it is common they can be inclusive of one another they can
exclusive of one another. A revision of our zoning ordinance has been recommended as a part of this plan
that will hopefully occur. As a part of that there may be a noise ordinance, there may be a buffering
ordinance, other components of that revised zoning ordinance. That revised zoning ordinance will have to
be justified, will have to be validated against the Comprehensive Plan itself and maybe additional analysis.
What we're hearing tonight is, well we cannot change properties from one zone to another without an
examination of the validity of those changes whether it is a concern about environmental issues or whether
it is an issue about wastewater disposal or whether it is a consumption of a visual open space. Those are
two separate documents and that's what I envision going forward from this point right now and I hope that
clarifies some of those concerns.
COUNCILMAN MERRILL-I guess from my experience I don't see the committee's responsibility to write
the ordinances, but to identify the need or the reason for one. It is not up to the committee to write the
zoning, it is not up to the committee to write a noise ordinance, it is the next step beyond that. We have the
Implementation Plan here that Chris has put together this will require the professional staff to put this
together it is beyond the committee.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I agree with that.
COUNCILMAN MERRILL-I think he has outlined probably five years of work here. So to put all of that
completed into the plan the plan will never be finished and that's what concerns me. If we fill in all the
details we'll never get there.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I see it as a working plan as we go forward one issue at a time.
JIM MARTIN, resident QUEENSBURY-To clarify on what a Comprehensive Plan is. A Comprehensive
Plan is most importantly a community's opportunity to speak to the needs of the town. The residents to
come forward and tell you what they think the needs are that is first and foremost what is the most
important aspect of a Comprehensive Plan. Once that's completed then you can develop goals and
objectives as to how you fulfill those needs and that's as far as the plan should go. A well written plan will
end up with recommendations for implementation measures like update your zoning ordinance, consider a
buffering ordinance, landscaping plan those types of things. I think what we need to do in a community
such as Queensbury is we've got to start thinking outside of the box this is not just a precursor to a zoning
ordinance and what could be done with our zoning code it shouldn't be just a means of beating the residents
over the head with further regulatory requirements. What can we do to make this a positive document and
a document that provides cohesion to the community and bring us together and highlight the good things
about the community and build upon that. For example if we're going to talk about landscaping let's not
just develop another set of regulations how can we get the community involved in that. Can we get
business to maybe donate money to establish an endowment fund for community wide beautification get
private investment in that get the businesses behind it, beautify our highways with taking the Adopt-a-
Highway Program to the next level. Those are the types of things that also can come in this not just a
precursor to further regulations so we can just shut the gate even more. Planning is about development if
you don't have development then you don't need the plan. Let's be positive about this and use it as a
document to bring the committee together and be a cohesive instrument and not just further regulation let's
balance this document. I've been involved in planning virtually for every aspect. I've been an applicant,
staff member, you know I've been on the private side, I've been a resident. We have seen the pendulum
swing a bunch of different ways when we get radical plans come forth. You had the Queensbury Business
Association come out in reaction to the last Comprehensive Plan and now we have a Citizen Group for
Queensbury that has come out because a decision was made to far the other way. Let's try to stay in this
approach and keep it on track that way let's come out with a balance document that's going to move the
community forward.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you.
WARREN COUNTY SUPERVISOR, RONALD MONTESI-6 Cobblestone Drive. Chris, I think in 1989 I
was involved with the Master Plan. There was a strong sediment in town, I think elections were won and
lost on the fact that things were going wild. We needed to slow things down we needed to take a look we
were hurting the environment. That Comprehensive Plan took a look at what could the land support. I
know it might be. . . to your comments, but what did the land support and how would we zone it accordingly
and we did zone it accordingly. That made some enemies but basically what we were trying to do was to
slow development down somewhat not to put it into areas that were environmentally sensitive. Hopefully
this plan will grow from that I would hope that it isn't going the other way. I do have some specific things
that I would like to ask you not to justify, but just explain to me. One of them is we just spent and built a
fourteen or fifteen million gallon a day Water Treatment Plant and part of this plan I think as a former
Town Board member and as a taxpayer should include where are we going for water, where are we going
to grow? A third of our town is on water that leaves two thirds that aren't on water. Mike O'Connor just
mentioned a critical area in Glen Lake. When I served on the Town Board I thought that was a critical area
and we did a study there, it was eight hundred bucks a house to put water from Route 9 to Bay Road and
include all twelve miles of the roads in Glen Lake an incredible expensive proposition, but maybe it is
something we have to consider and look for the funds for that. How can we put together a plan and say we
have a class A Water Treatment Plant and not include potentially the input from the Water Department,
where should we be growing next, and where are we going to get those dollars to grow? I have some
thoughts here that I just need to have you share with us year Map 3-3, in the Comprehensive Plan you are
talking about rezoning Exit 20. It says recommended to allow office and service in addition to more
residential services. Way back when I was on the Planning Board a group of businessmen came in and
wanted to put a truck stop there at Exit 20, we didn't pass that. My only concern is that is says
recommended to allow offices and services would services include something like a truck stop?
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MR. ROUND-Let me just touch on a couple of things before you get too far
ahead. Number one that the eighty nine or the eighty eight plan characterized wasn't a negative comment.
I'm just saying the focus of that plan was just exactly what you had indicated was to control growth. This is
not a plan that was devised specifically just to control growth. The issues that are in front of the town
today are not the issues that were in front of the town ten years ago that was all that my comment was to
address.
COUNTY SUPERVISOR, MONTESI-They maybe those same issues if we change too many of those
environmentally sensitive areas.
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MR. ROUND-I realize that. Again, this plan is not chuck full of changes in
intensity of zoning. There are a couple of key areas that are going to raise a lot of concern for people and
that's part of the public involvement process. Number two the plan does recommend examination of
extension of water districts in the Glen Lake area, into the Jenkinsville area, into Lake Sunnyside area.
There is not a infrastructure improvement plan as a component of this Comprehensive Plan that is a
recommendation and that is something that should be examined. This gives further wait to that that this is
indeed a concern of the citizens of the Town and that is something that the citizens do want to see money
spent on is examination of infrastructure your point is well taken.
COUNCILMAN MERRILL-Ron if I could just comment on neighborhood three because I was involved in
that at the time. The intent there and is stated in the plan duplex, professional office, residence, church,
daycare center, etc., with site plan review. This recommendation and this is in bold print this
recommendation does not include commercial use which would not be compatible with existing land uses
in the area so I think this addresses your concern there.
COUNTY SUPERVISOR, MONTESI, Page 5-2, Ridge Road, Route 149. There is a vacant lot there I
think it was at one time I think it might still be owned by Torrington. What would that zone be R5-2?
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MR. ROUND-Again, it is real difficult to deal with those specific issues what
uses would be allowed in a zone. That's why one of my revision to this draft document is not to make a
recommended zone change, but to identify what uses you think are compatible for a particular area......
COUNTY SUPERVISOR MONTESI-Because of that area I would assume R5-2 might be.......
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MR. ROUND-That is a recommendation number. R5-2, is a reference within
the document to the Implementation Plan is it not a zone designation. R5-2 is to allow those existing uses
to be conforming uses and to examine limited commercial development to provide services to that remote
area of town.
COUNCILMAN MERRILL-That is something they are recommending the Planning Board address.
COUNTY SUPERVISOR MONTESI-What is the thought on the Comprehensive Planning Committee for
the property that is owned now by the hole in the wall on Aviation Road, what's your recommendation?
Also, I looked at the Indian Ridge again, a sort of controversial area and that appears to be increased in
density just your thoughts on that? Thank you.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Anyone else?
JOHN SALVADOR-resident of North Queensbury, bear in mind that I did serve on the Comprehensive
Land Use Planning Committee. Although, I do agree with many of the things that are there, I would like to
take the opportunity to comment with regard to neighborhood number one. On Page 318 of the proposed
Comprehensive Land Use Plan the issue of commercial zoning in neighborhood one is raised. As stated
there not only must all of the commercial activities of marinas be addressed, but also other recreation
activities. The commercial marina activities at our resort that my wife and I have operated for the past
twenty six years are only a part of the total recreation commercial service we are allowed to offer. The
recommendation of this plan are first and foremost for a change that is progress. Simply change in the
zoning may not fly now is the time to recognize the need for recreation zoning in all of North Queensbury.
The recreation residential and recreation commercial can then exist side by side. I submit that the
residential zoning plan we have particularly for the near shore areas of Queensbury is flawed. The
infrastructure the natural physical characteristics of the land cannot support residential zoning. Lot sizes
are small, soils are poor, there is no infrastructure, no sewage collection, water is taken from the lake, we
don't know how much longer that will be allowed to continue with regard to EP A's requirements for safe
drinking water. Fundamentally my position here tonight is that although a zoning change is recommended
we have to be careful we're not going to get ourselves into the predicament of spot zoning a zoning change
is required because the primary use is not residential. Further the infrastructure and present physical
characteristics do not lend themselves to residential zoning. We find in here on Page 3 -7, that fully twenty
nine percent of the existing tax parcels list, only twenty nine percent list a local mailing address as their
domicile. This means that seventy one percent of the property owners are not residents how can we term
this area residential? You would think that residential means that the people are occupying the land and
their dwelling as their primary residence. Many of these twenty nine percent are also away during the
better part of the winter season. None of these figures include the many cabin cruiser's on the lake,
cruiser's include sleeping and toilet facilities they are what you might call a seasonal dwelling or a
substitute for a vacation home. In order for this plan to have meaning it is that the zoning change is needed
let us examine how our neighborhood got to this need. Roger mentioned that the town developed a
Comprehensive Land Use Plan in 1966, but did not adopt it the town did, however, adopt a Zoning
Ordinance about 1968 the best I can determine. In 1968 that zoning plan called for all of North
Queensbury and the near shore areas to be zoned in one form, shape, or another as residential. However, as
permitted uses in those residential zones we had golf clubs, lodges, campsites, essential services and I'd like
to come back to that, riding academies, marinas, yacht clubs, boat storage, private boat launching ramp,
boat storage for private boat and guess what seasonal dwellings. Seasonal dwellings were an allowable use
in North Queensbury in these residential zones. The point I'm getting to is with the small lot size, the poor
soils we can't justify year round residency we just cannot justify particularly on those peninsulas all they
are good for is summer seasonal use. I'll tell you something the only thing that saves us in Dunham's Bay
from serious sewage discharge pollution is the fact that my neighbors go home in October, some of them as
early as September and they don't come back again until May. Those poorly functioning septic systems
get a nice chance to rest and that's the idea, but it only works with seasonal use. That plan with marinas as
an allowable use continued until about 1982, but prior to that our town participated in a DEC program of
registering docks, wharfs, and boathouses and permitting marinas on Lake George. Dick Roberts who was
our Planning Board Chairman at the time testified at the public hearing and even submitted it in comments
for that program that was the first part six forty six. He said, that boats and boaters must assume an
undetermined amount of responsibility for water quality deterioration. That the number of boats was
causing serious safety problems. That certain boats were violating reasonable noise levels was there a law
saying they were violating this? That the spirit and perhaps the letter of the Queensbury Zoning Ordinance
is being increasingly violated by renting docks and mooring space on private lots, commercial
establishments in a residential zone those are his words. All power boats and boaters coming onto the lake
come under inspection and control only the power boats, but not Mr. Roberts sailboat. The Queensbury
Planning Board recommended a second public hearing be held prior to the enactment and enforcement of
this ordinance, of course, the second public hearing wasn't held and the DEC and the Lake George Park
Commission went ahead and got into that program. The next thing that happened in 1982 we changed our
Zoning Ordinance and the dramatic change here was that marinas were no longer considered an allowable
use. All ten marinas in North Queensbury were not considered according to the town's zoning ordinance in
1982 the changes as an allowable use as we were previously considered. Between 1968 and 1982 we were
an allowable use Mr. Turner remembers many times us coming before the board seeking special use
permits The town deferred now to the DEC and to the Park Commission regulating marinas that went on
that way and then we have Zoning Ordinance in 1988 that defines marinas pretty much in accordance with,
this is a change by the way, pretty much in accordance with what the DEC said. Then the town came out
with a Comprehensive Land Use Plan which others have spoke about in 1989. In this plan they refer to the
DEC Task Force that prepared a final plan for the Lake George Park Commission they say now this is in
our Comprehensive Land Use Plan what I'm reading. The major findings of the DEC Task Force presented
the final plan to the Lake George Park Commission in March of 1987. One, inadequately controlled land
development on sites with environmental and other limitations. World renown scenic qualities of the
shoreline and mountainsides are being diminished by the. . . . . . of structures on the natural landscape nothing
to do with marinas yet. The quality of the lakes renown pure waters is deteriorating at a alarming rate.
Infrastructure capacities especially wastewater treatment facilities are not adequately considered in the
development process. We're still struggling today with the wastewater management program for North
Queensbury. Although Lake George is a public resource opportunities for public use through the
development of water front parks, beaches, and public open space along shorelines has not been actualized
as a result of inadequate planning. What have we done since this plan to do anything about that we're
developing Hudson Park. The quality of the recreational experience for boating and other water activities
is greatly threatened by overcrowding and increasingly unsafe conditions on the surface of the lake. Local
use planning regulations are exercised unevenly by state agencies and local governments and are
inadequate with respect to meeting present need. For neighborhood number one this is where I think this
plan did not serve our community. This plan after saying all of that about the problems in neighborhood
number one this plan recommends the following. Land use north of 9L represents an entirely different
picture etc., etc. The major issue in this area is the conversion of seasonal residences to year round and the
additions of rental properties to lots already overdeveloped. These two changes in property use are further
overtaxing the carry capacity of the land increasing septic failures and subsequent lake and land pollution.
Marina development on Lake George in this neighborhood is located in residential neighborhoods and is a
preexisting non-conforming use. Popularity of Lake George is supporting the expansion of these marinas.
As these facilities expand they are changes the residential resort character of the area emphasizing
residential always pushing residential on land that can't support it on lots that are too small to support it. In
addition to marina development boat storage on residential lots is also becoming aesthetically degrading to
year round residential living in the area. Have you driven through the countryside up there lately? Have
you've driven around and seen what it looks like? You see those people leave they don't have to look at the
aesthetics in the winter time the blue tarp over their boat in the front yard they don't have to see it they go.
Boat storage in residential areas should be limited, and further, and we go on, increase commercial activity
in general is changing the character of the neighborhood. The growth of non -conforming preexisting uses
that's us, that's the marinas, that's the resorts, we are the only non-conforming uses, you know any others up
there they are all residential they all conform. The growth of non-conforming preexisting uses in
residential neighborhoods in spite of zoning controls resulting in increase tourism and population growth
should be controlled and focused into specific areas to service the neighborhood while encouraging sound
environmentally responsive residential development. You know the problems we've got up there today
over use of the land building, wastewater, everything continued vigilance to the growth of non-conforming
uses is essential to maintaining the integrity of the residential zoning in this neighborhood. All of the
problems we've had in North Queensbury in recent years are tied to the fact that were trying to push a
square peg into a round hole pushing that residential zoning the conditions the infrastructure everything
isn't there. Just one last word that first plan that the town had its first Zoning Ordinance allowed essential
services in North Queensbury that allowance doesn't exist anymore. If there is one limitation we have on
the management the sound management of wastewater in that area it's the AP A's telling us that you can't
have a sewage treatment facility of any kind in North Queensbury without a change in zoning and they
have to approve it. Enough said, I maintain that we've got to come to grips with the fundamental of zoning
of North Queensbury and we should move in a direction of recreational zoning. That's what we have at
West Mountain we have recreation commercial the ski slope and we have recreation residential the people
who live in the area. They both exist side by side they are not at logger heads they don't go through the
throws we go through in North Queensbury when a marina wants to handle two more boats than what the
neighbors think they are allowed to do. If we had recreation zoning, okay and we had our rights as a
commercial recreation entity and the neighbors had their rights as residential recreation entity everything
could work out much better.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you John.
DR. MARK HOFFMAN, FOX HOLLOW LANE, QUEENSBURY-I did prepare a letter which I hope
you've all had the opportunity to read which is fairly detailed and covers most of my points. I find myself
for a change in some agreement with Mr. O'Connor. I am concerned about the lack of specifics in terms of
implementation. I have not had a chance, I just took a look at the implementation document tonight so
there may be more detail in that. In skimming through it I'm not sure that's going to have a lot of the detail
that would make me feel more comfortable. I guess the jux of my concern is that there seems to be a
inequality between very general sorts of recommendations about things which are aimed at improving
quality of life in the town as opposed to very specific recommendations. I heard it said tonight you are
trying to stay away from specific zoning recommendations and so forth and yet with regard to at least
several areas of concern there are very specific zoning recommendations. The one that I like to touch on is
the one that relates to the former Indian Ridge proposal. Just a few comments in the specific
recommendation for neighborhood six. Reference was made to the purpose of the rural residential zone in
179-15 the implication was that this property doesn't meet the suggestion that were made that would make
an area appropriate for the RR-3 zoning. Specifically with regard to steep slopes, wetlands, limiting soils,
marginal access to populated areas, the comment was made that those things don't apply and I would
disagree with that. There are steep slopes in that area perhaps ten or more percent of the area is steeply
sloped it is immediately adjacent to a very important wetland. We heard tonight concern that a high
percentage of dwellers adjacent to Glen Lake drink water from Glen Lake and this wetland is a major
source of water supply for Glen Lake. Limiting soils the last Comprehensive Land Use Plan felt that this
property was not.. ...suitable for development and that was a reason for RR3-A zoning. It was based on
extremely high soil permeability's somehow the montra has gotten in that it was a mistake and that, you
know somehow the new data indicates that's not true. There isn't a single finding from the 1988
Comprehensive Land Use Plan in terms of actual data relating to permeability or slope or depth to ground
water there is nothing in that Comprehensive Land Use Plan relating to the Indian Ridge properties which
has been found to be incorrect. There are differences in terms of value judgments and analysis and
interpretations, but the data is correct nobody has proposed any data differently than that. Finally in terms
of that statement about rural residential zoning and what's appropriate and what's not appropriate. Basically
the main justification that is provided is taken from that Zoning Ordinance and the terminology in that
Zoning Ordinance which elsewhere in the document has been described as what was the term ambiguous or
poorly worded. Basically you've made the recommendation that the Zoning Ordinance should be
completely rewritten and yet you use the same terminology from that outdated Zoning Ordinance as a
justification why the zoning needs to be changed. In terms of some of the comments that I made in my
letter just to briefly summarize. I do feel that public input is very important this public hearing is very
important. I would just try to encourage you as much as possible to maybe push the envelope somewhat on
trying to get public input. We all know that sometimes turn out at these public hearings is not the greatest
certainly the turn out at the neighborhood meetings which we used to garner input was not very good in
1994 that was four years ago people may feel a little differently now. You maybe take a little bit more
aggressive approach to obtaining public input you may find that's worthwhile. I noticed that the town has
been sending out quarterly newsletters to every family in the town with that kind of investment it would
seem to me it would be quite possible to get a return in terms of public input and opinion from the general
population if that devise was used in that fashion. Again, there is the concern that many of the
recommendations as far as improving quality of life that relate to example the greenway plan, promotion of
nonmotorized transportation, creation of parks accessible by foot or bike, rewriting the zoning ordinance,
architectural review, landscape standards, sign regulation, noise ordinance, those are the types of things
which would make this town more livable. Very few specifics my concern is and I think it's a very justified
one is that this plan is going to be put on the shelve and when it comes to actually implementing any of
these things it is going to be buried. I would feel a lot more comfortable about perhaps allowing some
areas where increase density might be useful if it was done in tandem with a concrete plan to achieve some
of the goals that we would like to see for improved livability particularly as far as preserving open space
and promotion of access to parks and recreation. There is this reference to soil permeability in the geology
section I read that about five hundred times I can't make any sense out of it. It seems to say that it's taking
a very permeable rate and saying, they will only allow soils that are more permeable than that.
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MR. ROUND-There is a typo in that to be identified at the committee.
DR. HOFFMAN-In terms of neighborhood six. I eluded to the Indian Ridge areas there are adjacent
neighborhoods which are zone one acre. I feel that this is basically irrelevant these are areas which are
predominately already developed. Those people are not going to tear down their homes what we need to
address is what are we going to do in 1998, 1999, the next millennium. We can't go back to 1970 and say,
well somebody built the house on an half an acre at that time therefore we should zone the result of our
developable land at half an acre. We have to ask ourselves whether preservation of open space is
something that we value as a town and whether we're willing to develop specific polices to address that
particularly in an area which has experienced very heavy development in which open spaces are at short
supply right now. Again, I have no argument with many of the recommendations it sounds almost like it is
taken directly out of the Indian Ridge PUD and put into the Comprehensive Land Use Plan, but some of
those features are positive. The clustering is certainly something that would help preserve open space, I
personally have no objection to multi-family dwellings particularly if it was done in the context oflower
density overall zoning such that the clustering would allow preservation of open space. I do feel that the
traffic impacts of one acre zoning were totally ignored in the Comprehensive Land Use Plan. It needs to be
kept in mind that the prior development which found failing levels at the Dixon, Farr, Aviation, intersection
included a sixty acre senior housing development which would have had very little traffic input. Where as
this zoning potentially with no limitations placed on it this zoning recommendation could be entirely single
family housing. People have previously touched on the impacts of increased residential development on
the demands that are placed on the schools the fiscal impact of that, tax impact, I would, and reference was
made to the fact that maybe conditions that existed in 1988 are no longer present. I would simply assert
that the census figures which have been quoted easily a half a dozen times in the last two or three years in
the Post Star and elsewhere indicate Queensbury continues to grow at a steady clip. The population growth
is higher here than other town in the region including Wilton this despite supposedly restrictive zoning. I
guess, as a final point, I don't want you to come away with the impression that I'm saying I'm drawing the
line in the sand at three acre zoning and I don't want to see anything else ever built in that area or anywhere
else. What I would say is I'm very concerned about unconditional change of the zoning which would triple
the current allowed density virtually no requirements placed on any potential developer. In terms of some
of the positive types of things we'd like to see in terms of a greenway plan and so forth. I think any
increase in density has to be closely coupled with specific concrete plans to preserve open space. There
was a reference in the document preventing development in the critical environmental area, again I'm not
an Attorney, but I've had some experience with this recently and these kind of general recommendations in
the Comprehensive Land Use Plan carry little or nor legal weight. If we really want to preserve the critical
environmental area it has to be coupled too some sort of restrictive zoning or it has to be part of a
negotiated agreement between the land owner and the town. That type of negotiated agreement is not
likely if you hand the developer what he wants with absolutely no strings attached. Thank you.
COUNTY SUPERVISOR, NICK CAIMANO- Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Nick Caimano, 11 Heinrick
Circle. I would like to drag you back to Jim Martin. The people who worked on this Dick and Roger, the
several others over the several years really are preparing a pallet they are preparing a canvass, I mean a
background we ought not to be arguing specifics you folks will argue those specifics as they come up. If
we don't remember that this is a living document in which it is a dream for our community from here
forward into the next millennium as Doc Hoffman said then we're going to keep stumbling, we're going to
keep falling over each other and we're not going to get anywhere. Jim tried to drag you back to the fact this
is a living document it is a preparation for the future it is not specific. We shouldn't be arguing whether the
lake is better off with residential that's not what this is. It is a dream of a bunch of people who sat together
as members of the community and decided this is how we want Queensbury to go. Our argument now
ought to be is that dream right as a dream not as a specific in a particular zone not whether the area on
Aviation Road should be rezoned so that the hole in the woods can sell it that's another matter, another
fight. I urge you to not stumble where others of us have stumbled and to use that eighty eight, eighty nine
document the preparation work that these people have done and prepare for the future prepare that canvas
so that we can live in the future. As the problems come up as to whether or not to sell that land or to
whether or not to allow one or three acre zoning in Doc Hoffman's area those are different arguments for
different boards. We need the plan we need the dream that's what we need now, I urge you to keep that up.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Anyone else?
BETTY MONAHAN, QUEENSBURY-Unless the purpose of a Master Plan has changed it is also the basis
of how you justify any future ordinances etc., and so on I think that's one of the importance of your Master
Plan. You all have in front of you a prepared document that I did. I'm not going to bore you by going over
every little point on it, I'm just going to say that overall I think this document was a good base document I
think it has to be built on. I think the vision statement is excellent. I would just like to see some definition
of the work rural because it does not have the same meaning for everyone. There are some goals of which
we're trying to achieve as rural under 1-2 and 1-3, it is a start, but I think it has to have some more. They
talked about Muermann Associates in the recreation plan. I think that we really have to look at that
recreation plan again and think of the changes in people and the things that people want to do today. The
things the kids want to do, the things the teenagers want to do, the things the adults want to do. I think a lot
of the needs that people want in recreation today is not being meant. Overall, I think the segment
"Townwide Land Use Goals and Objectives" is excellent. When we get to landscape standards I think we
have to justify them. How many trees do you need to counteract the pollution of the cars in the parking lot.
To counteract the BTU's generated by blacktop and road area we should be finding reasons for what we're
doing. Talked about a Noise Ordinance. You should not as far as I'm am concerned put an ordinance in
place unless it is enforceable nor should it be discriminatory. Clustering needs to be better defined and
standards developed that benefit the town, not the developer. Planning Boards should use the technique of
requiring the developer, when asking for clustering to submit a plan for a conventional subdivision, so they
have a means of comparing what is in the town's best interest. Any land put aside for green space to meet
density requirements must be deed restricted, so that someone at a later date can not come back and ask for
development rights. I would suggest that many of the regulations concerning commercial and industrial
could be performance, incentive driven. Also, collector roads, where indicated, be established before the
fact, not after. I think we have to analyze areas where intense development has been allowed such as Glen
Acres and Cottage Hill. What are the soils like in those areas today and what has happened on the lots with
garages, plantings, etc. If you need to get in there to redo a septic system, change the soils can it be done in
what is left? Recreational Services. No mention is made of the approximately 88 acres the Town received
as part of the Hiland PUD agreement. We also have areas of access and parking both on Haviland and
Meadowbrook Roads. What about the green area along some of the stream corridors that have been deeded
to the town? Neighborhood One, talks about residential dock regulations. I would ask that you not give up
your right to regulate any structure that is on the dock namely the boathouses, roof, decks. These really
relate to land use standards not to a dock. Commercial overlay zone in neighborhood two. Size of lots
need to be very carefully worked out so that there is room on the lot to do all the things required to
maintain the rural characteristics setback, green area, landscaping, unobtrusive parking areas, good traffic
flow, etc. a good area to look at performance and incentive zoning. Types of uses allowed, particularly
within the view shed of the roads, need to be carefully considered. Again, thinking of the rural character
and the fact that this is one of the major entrances-exits to the Town of Queensbury. We don't need to
muck up another one of these entrances and exits and then try to correct it after the fact. Where land
space permits, more intense use could go to the back of the areas and be carefully screened to keep the
good view shed. Traffic internalized. Consider whether... of the sand pit abutting Ridge and Route 149
should, also, be in the Low-Impact Commercial with Rural Development Overlay. Then, I'm wondering
can we make use of the closed landfill and I think maybe we're already looking at that for some form of
recreation like cross country skiing, sliding, kite-model airplane flying etc. Gurney Lane we've got
approximately an hundred acres there, how much of that is developed for the benefit of the town to use as
recreation right now? The Route 9 Outlet Center. Recommendations are well taken, but further studies
need to be done with input from all the competing not necessarily compatible interests. Some points to be
considered, the overall commercial health of the area and of the town. It is a high producing sales revenue
areas which reduces the burden of the town and county real estate taxes. Benefits all Warren County
residents as well as Queensbury's. Is there enough land involved, is there room for expansion, to keep this
area a viable, competitive market? How do we provide this? How much area is presently available for
infill? Conversely, how do we protect the residential areas abutting it from noise, fumes, light pollution,
etc. This is why there needs to be input from all parties involved, rather than "big brotherism" operating.
Glen Lake residential area. Recommendations I would add any expansion or alteration of commercial use
must have criteria for noise and light pollution because of their effects on surrounding areas. Chestnut
Ridge Road. A recommendation, "Historic preservation protection district be provided for stone walls. "
This is also true on Ridge Road from Chestnut Ridge Road intersection south to the city limits.
Neighborhood six. I did not see that zoning map that was in the document the zone that is for Solomon
Heights. I would suggest that we create a senior affordable housing overlay zone of seven to ten acres
adjacent to Solomon Heights with the same density that is allowed for Solomon Heights. This would be an
extension of that zone and would serve a socio/economic need. Talk about commercial use area of
Aviation \ Farr Road. Certainly, would want to know what kind of commercial uses we're talking about. I
certainly don't think that a lot of the highway commercial uses are appropriate. We also have to remember
when we talk about more commercial uses in neighborhood six that there is an area that is part of the
Hudson Pointe if it is built, it may serve some of those uses. Neighborhood twelve. Particular attention
needs to be given to the uses allowed in Light Industrial One Acre and to buffering and landscaping
requirements of this zoning would not be incompatible to and intrusive on the present residential areas.
Again, what we used to call a "paper doll" analysis and later on I've explained that, should be done to prove
that the one acre zone is large enough to provide the proper set back, building size, parking lot,
landscaping, and greenspace requirements. Otherwise, the town will have more of what is already has too
much being crammed into an undersize lot, variances being given usually at the expense of setback, buffers
and greenspace requirements. After this analysis is done, it may be shown that either one and a half acre or
two acre is more appropriate. Neighborhood thirteen and fourteen. I'm a little concerned about when we
talk about giving up some more light industrial areas. Creation of a job base that pays a living wage is a
major concern in this area; retail jobs are not going to accomplish this goal. Can we designate some light
industrial areas someplace else in town to compensate, otherwise we may be zoning out the very jobs we
want. There needs to be a checklist of methodologies to achieve planned development with a concern for
protection of natural resources, rural character and visual quality of town. That came out of the Vision for
Queensbury so that this statement is more than a "motherhood and apple pie" statement. The definition
buffer zone needs to be clarified and strengthened. Cemeteries, many of which are rural and historic, need
better buffering protection than is offered now. Perhaps, they may even require a separate buffer
requirement section. Before the recommendations of the Comprehensive Land Use Plan are adopted they
should be put to several tests. Do they fit the vision statement? Are they practical? Has the amount of
land left that has not been developed in this town been determined? How much of this land is suited to
development? What is its capacity for development? How much of this land do we want to remain as
green or open space? What methods are available to accomplish this without penalizing landowners or
without using condenmation? What will be the effects of the proposed recommendations on the
neighborhood and on Queensbury as a whole? At complete build out, what effect will these
recommendations have on population, houses, schools, roads, traffic, services, police, fire, emergency
protection, watershed drainage patterns? Can we afford the answers? I must say this was not done with the
Master Plan in 1989. Bill Morton came up with the number of people that plan would allow in this town
which was around forty thousand people, but we had never done it. Can our economy provide the kind and
number of jobs to support the above answers? What will Queensbury look like? Will we be able to
maintain the aesthetics and quality of life that our citizens want, or will we become just another suburban
sprawl, a wasteland of asphalt and big box stores with no identify left like too many area of the country that
are losing population? When we are done, can we say, ''''Home of Natural Beauty A Good Place to Live.?"
I just want to say, in parking lots which we have a marvelous example right down the road in Hiland which
was done before we had these kind of regulations in place. Then, I turn you to Queensbury School which is
probably one of the worst examples of what a parking lot ought to be. I've also brought some pictures they
do not become a part of the official record, but these are examples of some parking lots in England where
they are very unobtrusive. This is what people can do in Cape Town, South Africa there is an area known
as Table Mountain it is considered a national resource. Somebody came along and started to put up some
skyscrapers, three went up, the people said no more. That is a view that is everybody's right nobody is
going to diminish it. This document was in the Planning Office because I put it there in fact this consultant
frankly is right down in Saratoga Springs or he was at the time. The title of it is, Striking a Balance
Resource Protection and Economic Development. Resource plan is particularly interesting because it
provided crisp answers to three key questions. How much land should be protected? Is it affordable?
What sites are more important? The town engage the center for governmental research to develop a fiscal
model that analysis fiscal impacts of future land use patterns on a town wide basis. Both town and school
districts cost of development could be analyzed. The planning team used the model to analyze the amount
and type of future development and preservation to test and refine the desire blend of commercial,
residential, protected land uses. Ultimately, a target was selected upon which a Comprehensive Plan was
based a very interesting result was found. Protection of open space including purchase of development
rights could be more cost effective then full buildout of the town. It does not mean that there should not be
further development. It does mean that a fiscal balance can be achieved through a strategy that promotes a
variety of housing styles recognizes the deed for the development of economic land uses and preserves
open space.
Using the fiscal model as a planning tool the targets for land preservation and development were tested,
modified, and refined. Create a strategy that recognizes a unique character and assets of your community.
I think everyone including visitors recognizes that we live in one of the most beautiful areas of the country,
but are we going to hide it behind all kinds of development. Be ready for economic development, and
identify sites for economic development, and provide for servicing those sites with proper zoning and
infrastructure. Establish design guidelines that paint the picture of the communities desire future. Thank
you.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you, Betty.
DOUG AUER, 16 Oakwood Drive, Queensbury-I also sit on the Queensbury Recreation Commission. I
have a question for you this is possibly maybe the time to consider this. How has the input from the school
district been considered as developing this?
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-How did the input from the school district been considered in the planned
development? We spent some time I'd have to go back, I guess to the committee. I have not talked to
anyone up at the school at the time when Indian Ridge was being planned. At that point, I certainly spent
some time with Dr. Gee and tried to get a readout in terms of what the growth potential was there and the
cost per student along with student aid from State Aid, that I do have but, other than that I really don't have
anything that went with this.
MR. AUER-Perhaps the timing may be good anyway at this point. As you say, you are looking to put
some flesh to this. I would suggest that not only the Queensbury School District, but also Lake George I
think there are some considerations here. As this develops and some of these vision considerations begin
to solidify for the future. Just something that pops to mind perhaps there may be even some questions
where there are some undeveloped land there may be some interest in redistricting perhaps something to
think about. I think if they had some input as to at least see where this was going it might be valuable
where as they may be able to take that into consideration perhaps the school district could hanuner that sort
of thing out you've got also to some extent Glens Falls impacted. I think perhaps the timing is good at this
point as a suggestion to perhaps try to integrate some of their interest in this. I know that they are looking
in Queensbury to do some long range planning as to how they want to utilize their school district with the
recent acquisition of some land that just came into their holding. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Yes, sir.
COLIN HART, FOX HOLLOW LANE-It looks like a lot of hard work in the plan and I commend you for
your job. Could you make some cross reference between your goals and strategies and then your item
number for the towns so we can easily see how they interact, make sure everything is covered. Could you
also define a lot of your terms. I don't have a lot of experience in this and I see RR-3A, CEA boundaries,
LC-42A. I just like to be able to pick up the document and understand everything that's in it with
references, definitions, etc. I'm surprised that I didn't see any comments on the Northway and a buffer
zone. It just seems when you have an expressway going through a town you would like to make sure that
there is green space or something to control the visual appeal as you drive through. Obviously being from
neighborhood six, I also have a concern on this higher density. I think many people who are expressing
their opinions there is a fair amount of fear of uncontrolled development it is very difficult to go back. A
lot of us if we could expand the size of our property we would love too, but we have what we have. There
is just a lot of fears when you are talking about increasing the density what's going to happen next so please
take a close look at that. Again, it's back to this cross reference between your goals and your item numbers
of your neighborhoods. I'd like to see more of a balance and we talked about the quality oflife issues,
green space and such. Just looking at neighborhoods three, six, eleven, I didn't really see where some of
these goals of the rural character the green space applying in those neighborhoods. It was just nice to see a
balance of make sure every neighborhood is covered with the green space recreational opportunities etc. I
think if you balanced out, you have a great bunch of goals and strategies it's really excellent. If you bring
those more into each neighborhood I think people are going to accept it much more readily. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR CHAMP AGNE- Thank you. Anyone else for the first go around?
BERNARD RAHILL-I have still a great number of concerns with regard to what we're doing right now. I
just came back from two days studying data base warehouses and the Internet and how warehouses work
and how complex communication takes place between State, Local, and Federal government agencies for a
number of political tasks. I think that your political task is first of all to inform the public that you are open
to their suggestions. Your second political task is instead of sending out your trimester newsletter make it a
questionnaire. Soundly, rationally, professional developed with all of the necessary questions for the
people of Queensbury to deposit their suggestions. As I've said before we have a very well educated
population. I am very impressed by the people who have spoken already and I think that it is incumbent
upon you to make it easy for yourselves to formulate that questionnaire and let all of the information come
in even if you have to get computer program and. . .. the information so that you get the right answers for the
benefit of the Queensbury rather than the whim of some politician or some developer, or some real estate
interest for the benefit of the people, let the people speak please this is very important. This is a democracy
and I ask you to behalf democratically as our representatives in the Town of Queensbury. I already made
the suggestion that a question be sent out to residents before so I would like to go to one other point which
was brought up by, what is a streetscape?
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MR. ROUND-Streetscape is the urban landscape the same you would
anticipate the landscape or skyline streetscape is how the street and urban corridor is viewed from
individual perspectives.
MR. RAHILL-My view of Route 9 is that we have a great number stores and companies that don't have
trees in front of them. You look down and you go to Glens Falls and all of a sudden Glens Falls is covered
with a line of trees. It almost looks like I've been to South America many times it looks like a hacienda in
Chili or Argentina when you go down to Route 9 to Glens Falls, I'd love to see that in Queensbury. Why
can't we plant trees going all the way up to Route 9 so that we do have, what is it, streetscape, I would call
it a natural vista. Why don't you try it see if you can make that part of the zoning regulations for the benefit
of our community to make our community attractive, I would appreciate it. My next question is would you
explain increase density to me what is increased density?
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Chris do you want to give us a definition of increase density.
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MR. ROUND-In what context? Increased density if you allow two units to
take place inside of one acre an increase in density might be three units in one acre.
MR. RAHILL-And at the present time with the present Comprehensive Land Use Plan what is the objective
of the Town Board?
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MR. ROUND-It is a pretty broad subject if you could refine that and narrow
the question down a little bit.
MR. RAHILL-That means that you need individuals who live in communities allover this town to answer
that question by writing, we want one acre in our community or we want three quarters of an acre in our
community so that they have the say rather than you because right now everything is nebulous isn't it?
COUNCILMAN IRISH-That's really what you are doing here tonight.
MR. RAHILL-Actually what I was saying to you it should be in a questionnaire form because the people
have to respond to you not just a small group the whole town.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I'll think we'll take that under consideration.
MR. RAHILL-Fine. Thank you very much.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you.
ATTORNEY O'CONNOR-I speak reluctantly at this point because I'm not here representing any individual
other than myself as to some lands that I own and have an interest in. I hate to have the record cluttered
with obviously misstatements of fact. I'll just say to the board that you should be aware as far as I
understand the land up on Aviation Road that the committee has recommended going from three acre to
one acre does not include any slope land. The slope land lies entirely within the LC-42 acre zone and not
within the land that is presently three acre. This board or this Town has all kinds of studies downstairs as
to the soils of the lands in question which staff has reviewed as opposed to what has been said. I'm sure the
board is probably as much aware of some of the facts I'm speaking of as I am. But, for a long time a lot of
facts just keep repeatedly being restated became credible. I think it's time the question of the credibility of
those facts be raised. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I really had not planned this to be a debate as to what's credible and what's
not credible. I think every member on the board here tonight knows the property up there and certainly we
will take your input and make sure that we validate those issues as we go down the road. Thank you very
much.
CHERYL ROBINSON HOFFMAN, 32 FOX HOLLOW LANE, QUEENSBURY-My concern is even
though we have sidewalks on one side of the road in front of the school children who walk tend to cross at
Cottage Hill at two other streets that are there. I approached Father Joe, he approached the Catholic Church
to have the sidewalk put in front of the church so that the children could cross there safely for religious
education and also walk to John Burke Apartments. These children walk in the snow and all year long and
we have had some accidents in the past concerning children getting to and from school or sports events or
social events. When you talk about the increase density in this part of Queensbury I don't want to hit
another persons child and I don't want my children hit my children do walk home from school when they
have activities. I would like to see something done in the planning to put sidewalks on both sides of the
roads within a mile of the school cause that's about the range we're talking about these children walking as
you get into the Pines I'm sure there is even more children walking because that's within a mile. This also
includes a school zone that would be on Dixon, is it Dixon?
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Dixon Road.
MRS. HOFFMAN-Dixon Road, cross walks so the drivers know where we're going to expect these
children to cross. Now they've put cross walks at the Mobile Gas Station and John Burke Road and in front
of the Church, but they have not put them in front of these other road. Then you have children who are
walking on the side of the road where there is no stable ground and they are also riding their bicycles. The
children because of Sokol's Plaza have a tendency to ride on the wrong side of the road. I have almost hit a
child because there was a van in front of me and I could not see around the van and I went to look around it
as you are suppose to, to go around traffic and here was a child coming at me. Before this was marked for
bike lanes it looks like a portion of the road is marked for bike lanes, but there are no signs that say we
have a bike lane here for the children. This is suppose to be a designated bike lane so that the drivers are
aware that they are going to have. . . .. I would ask that the police we're encouraging at one point that the
children observe safe bicycling rules helmets, right side of the road. Perhaps Sokol's Plaza could be
somewhat designed so that cars are not coming out in a wide area, but a narrower area to access the plaza
there. Senior housing. I would like to see more senior housing, but I would like to see it in neighborhoods
where when they can no longer drive they have some place to walk, some place to access, a social place,
coffee shop, a small market to access because the larger markets are too difficult for them to walk through.
I like to see this to be able to be throughout our community and not grouped in one area. People tend to
like to live where they have lived most of their life and it's very difficult to go into group housing. It is
very difficult some of our older residents along Aviation Roads have been walking in these woods for fifty,
sixty, seventy, years. I like to see recreational areas all through the community that are accessible to our
children that are going to be walking or riding bicycles. Thank you very much.
DR. HOFFMAN-With regard to the slope acres being in the LC-42. If that in fact is the case, I stand
corrected. I would question why during the Indian Ridge debate the developers made such a big to do
about the fact that they weren't developing there and how wonderful that they were giving that to Westland
in fact, they couldn't develop there based on zoning, separate issue, but if that in fact is the case, I stand
corrected. I would point out that the need for open space leaving everything aside. The need for open
space in and of itself is adequate justification for a low density zoning that's been shown again and again
through court decision and so forth so you don't need any of the other stuff. But, it's there and I stand
behind what I said with regard to the permeability, soil conditions... . data. If anything when the studies
were done on permeability they found that there was even more permeability than what was described in
the Comprehensive Land Use Plan. I would make one other point which is that zoning does, one of the
many purposes of zoning is one of them is to provide some degree of predictability. If you are going to
come in and rezone a property every ten years based on whatever the latest thing is then you better have a
danm good reason. I haven't seen a danm good reason why those properties should be rezoned, I think are
a lot of reasons why they shouldn't.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Next.
COUNTY SUPERVISOR DENNIS BROWER, QUEENSBURY-Roger I wanted to compliment you and
the entire committee for the work you've done. When you look at Queensbury and its many neighborhoods
and the vast size of the Town you start to understand how complex it can be to establish a plan for its
future. One of the interesting things the document pointed out in Map 11-1 the West Mountain Ski area.
There was a PUD approved several years ago Mike Brandt had approval to go ahead with a large
development on the Queensbury side which also incorporated a Lake Luzerne portion of a huge
development. One of your recommendations is to rezone that to previous zoning standards what we're
those previous standards?
COUNCILMAN TURNER-LC-IO.
COUNTY SUPERVISOR, MR. BROWER-Light commercial ten acre?
COUNCILMAN TURNER-No, no land conservation.
COUNTY SUPERVISOR, MR. BROWER-That is in the Adirondack Park area isn't it?
TOWN BOARD-South of it.
COUNTY SUPERVISOR, MR. BROWER-Anything in conjunction with rezoning a previously approved
PUD would that require a public hearing?
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MR. ROUND-Any rezoning would require a public hearing. The PUD is not
currently valid because the site plan approvals were never issued. It's something that should have been
addressed prior to this document being drafted.
COUNTY SUPERVISOR, MR. BROWER-One of the other interesting things that the plan really
highlights. We talk about economic development, we talk about industrial jobs, good paying jobs with
benefits, it really does highlight the fact that Queensbury really relies on tourism and is a regional shopping
destination with retail being its main strength. It also highlights the fact that there are limited opportunities
for light and commercial activities to occur in the town, but there are opportunities in the town. One last
comment and I think Betty hit on it earlier and I just want to emphasize the point. In future PUD
applications where there are forever green territories set aside I think its essential that deed restrictions be
placed on those properties. A similar occurrence has happened in Bedford Close where a developer had
forever green areas and, of course, deed restrictions were not place on the properties and the owners of
Bedford Close are currently addressing that currently. It would be much easier to preserve and protect the
areas that were intended to be forever green spaces if the Town Board, Planning Board, Zoning Board,
whoever is involved would indeed insist on those deed restrictions. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you Dennis.
MR. MARTIN-First of all, I want to also compliment the committee and the staff that worked on this. I
think overall it's a very good effort a lot of time and energy was put into this by a lot of people and that
should not be diminished or down played I applaud them for getting involved in their community. I think
one of the basic problems we have in this community is evidence here tonight is apathy. We have
something as important as this document and I'm not impressed with turnout. This is a very important step
for a community to take and that was evidence also in 1994. Literally the one central Queensbury location
we we're at we have six people there at the meeting at Queensbury High School we had more staff people
than we had people from the community but, I applaud the people who did get involved decided to step
forward and become part of the process and make some decisions. My first basic comment as a why to
improve upon something that's already very good is I would say to quote a questionably popular President,
"it's the economy stupid." I think the document could use some help in terms of economic development.
What are we specifically going to do? What decisions are going to be made to improve the economy of
this area? Are we going to start sewering our industrial sites? Are we going to start getting our industrial
site to a development ready state? Do we have enough industrial sites? Are we meeting the need in the
market place? Those types of things need to be made there are hard decisions there. How much is it going
to cost to run a sewer line out to the industrial park by the Northern Distributing building those are things
that need to be done. One of the fundamental problems is development of industrial sites in this area land
is going at fifty, sixty thousand dollars an acre for on sewer, on improve property that is not competitive.
We will continue to want for industrial development and good quality jobs that people speak about. I came
back to this community I was raised here I've been here since the mid sixties I want the same opportunity
for my children. I'm not going to be to happy if my children have to go to North Carolina or Texas to find a
good high quality paying job because the gates are closed in Queensbury that's a fundamental concern of
mine. I would like to see something done to address the economy getting the sites and the development
ready state and let's get competitive. We have a quality oflife that we all talk about that's all fine, well, and
good, but how can we meet the bottom line of the bean counter for the guy whose making the decision of
where he locates his facility. Traffic. I think there needs to be a lot done in transportation planning it's
expensive, it's takes a long time to get that ball rolling as can be seen by the bridge, Fred can attest. The
first two weeks he was in office he sat in a meeting to start the bridge widening process how many years
later now Fred did they cut the ribbon on the bridge opening? That stuff is expensive it takes a long time
let's get that in the works and let's get transportation planning out ahead of the ball. In that regard as a
specific step I think things should be done to the Transportation Council. Chris is sitting on the Technical
Advisory Committee, Fred sits on the Policy Committee, let's get out there and lobby for more funds to this
area. Region One on an annual basis gets approximately a hundred and twenty million dollars a year in
capital funding and planning money let's get more of that for our area we need it.
Residential just to speak to some regulatory suggestion. I think we should bring back the minor
subdivision regulations it's a good idea. The reason why it was tossed out that problem can be fixed. That
problem was that people were skirting the major subdivision regulation by coming in with continuous
minor subdivisions. That could be easily fixed we could bring back the minor subdivision regulation for
lots of four or less and help out the people who are trying to subdivide property that's been in the family for
a long time that are trying to give it to their grandchildren and children. Other things in terms of land
conservation. We all talk about preservation of open space it's a nice buzz terms, sounds great, how are we
going to do that? I would suggest that we form a town base Land Conservation Trust. There is certainly a
lot of property out there I can easily think of five hundred acres in this town that could be put into such a
trust. Let's get some private funding behind that as an implementation measure let's get that funded again.
Private investment there is certainly a lot of well meaning people in this community who would give their
five or ten dollars maybe to form such a company. Let's get a board started of local people to sit on a board
a land conservation trust let's do something positive rather than looking at open spaces just something,
another way to shut the gate, let's do something real those are just some of my comments. Again, I would
just say this is a positive document let's use this as a means to bring the community together. One more
thing, I think there should be more emphasis on cultural resources. We talk about Queensbury not have a
sense of identity something that contributes greatly to a community having identity is what do you do with
your cultural, what do people do with their leisure time. Let's not all just go home and slam the door on
each other let's get a sense of community and let's get some cultural activities here and allow for that. It
would be nice to have a Performing Art Center or something of that nature in the Bay Road corridor or
somewhere in that area. I think we should begin to speak to cultural activities and how we can foster that
and bring some identity to the community in that manner. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Anyone else.
TOWN HISTORIAN MARIL YN VAN DYKE-I hadn't originally planned to say anything about history
tonight, but you've kind of got me started thinking as you've been talking. It's really been two hundred and
thirty six years since the first Town plan was evolved. In that first plan the Town was laid out in a series of
lots that were a hundred and twenty acres each and they cost a hundred dollars. There was also a plan for a
set of home lots which did not evolve and Abraham Wing turned his business venture to the south, but
that's a long story. However, I think the fact that because that decision was made that Queensbury did
evolved into a series of small hamlets. These hamlets had their hay day they rose and they became
economically strong and then they fell back again leaving another entity for us to deal with which was our
agricultural entity and that in turn preserved a lot of these open spaces that we now, an talk about, an feel so
strongly about trying to keep in some format. I think the history of the Town has its ebb and its flow and it
will continue have that over long periods of time. At this time we look at what we have right now and what
we can do to make it work for us and to make us be able to look ahead to the future. I hope that we will
look at some of the cultural and historical advantages that we have here. We do have a rich history and we
can preserve that we can make it a lot more evident as we go along. We can turn that also into an economic
asset in terms of looking at what part of our Town can we turn into having historical tourism as an
advantage for us. I think we should examine those possibilities along with the rest of the communities in
this corridor that are doing the same thing today. I worked a good deal with Sue Cipperly to put some
aspect of history into this Comprehensive Plan so that as people read it they could see that there was a past,
present, future that we need to address. I hope that those ideas will be useful and that we can turn that into
some positive things like how do we develop our historic districts in the Town. I think Betty mentioned
looking at our stone walls as a possibility. There are other areas in the Town that could be developed, there
are our residences that could come under a community a certified local government program and be
recognized and dated and noted and could become places where we can take pride in what we have here a
sense of our past that can carry on into our future. I hope we will use our history to our advantage as we go
ahead with our new ideas in this plan. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you Marilyn, well said.
BERNARD RAHILL-Thank you very much for letting me speak again I forgot to remember something.
With regard to what Jim had to say, I mentioned in my piece here commercial industrial properties on an
equal par with Queensbury. What I meant by that was that these properties I'm not going to be specific
about them should pay taxes to the School District, to the Town, to the County. If any of you saw Time
Magazine this week there is two hundred and fifty billion dollars worth of corporate welfare going to a
small numbers of corporations in the United States and an unquantifiable amount of corporate welfare
going to States, Counties, Town's, and Villages that unquantifiable amount is probably, well its three
quarters of a trillion dollars which means that there is one trillion dollars worth of corporate welfare out
there. I don't think that your tax collection or the school's tax collection should put up with that nonsense.
I don't think you should give money to corporate beggars I think that is an important part of government.
The next point that I'd like to make I think Marilyn made a very beautiful statement and the prior
statements were good too. I've always been a lover of Shakespeare and I would encourage you to think
about if we can have somebody in the community start a leadership group. If we could get some
Shakespeare plays done at West Mountain or someplace else I think it would just bring back my youth.
Sitting in Central Park watching King Lire or some other play, I think you really would benefit from it
culturally and financially so think about Shakespeare its a fantastic cultural piece. With regard to one other
thing that I like to mention and this is to me very important. Everybody knows that I am in favor of having
a park at Round Pond in Ward 2 beside the golf course. I think that it would a fantastic opportunity for the
children and families of Queensbury and I've been at this for almost ten years. I see in this draft of the
recreation opportunities a wolf in sheep's clothing. It says; except passive recreation areas such as along
stream corridors and in wetlands as satisfying the development impact fee requirement when it can be part
of an overall greenway plan. Therefore you are just throwing unusable land at the people and that unusable
land will not provide active behavior on the part of young people and we need active parks not passive
parks. This has been on the agenda of the Town Boards since I've been here passive parks rather than
active parks. I want you to look at active parks for the benefit of children and families. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-John, I guess I saw your hand up.
MR. SALVADOR-Again, with regard to North Queensbury. You notice that the better part of the land
mass in North Queensbury are wetlands.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-That's green space John that's not a wetland.
MR. SALVADOR-There is a portion of Dunham Bay that has been classified by the AP A as a deep water
marsh. The New York State Legislature enacted the so called Wetlands Act in 1976 and they identified
wetlands as those lands commonly known as swamps, marshes, flats, bogs, a couple of other terms
commonly known as all of us would understand a marsh or a swamp when we see it. They also added in
there that these areas may be inundated with water periodically up to a depth of six feet. Well as the AP A
has stretched out and they reach they are beginning to identify the near shore areas of all lakes as deep
water marshes the six feet of inundation is becoming a deep water marsh.
Gentlemen here questioned the importance of definitions, definitions very important. What is a wetland? Is
a wetland a deep water marsh the AP A says it is. Now the importance for Queensbury is that we have
setback ordinance that is fifty feet from a water body or a wetland. The AP A, however, requires a hundred
feet setback and the DEC as well from a wetland. So now we have all of these near shore areas in North
Queensbury that are faced with one hundred foot setbacks, I don't know how you resolve this. I received in
the mail an invitation to a Wetlands and Water Resources Management Workshop hosted by the APA and
the New York State Wetlands Form, Inc., I don't know who that is. but, in any case one of the purposes of
the conference was to discuss the list of definitions and interpretations at that meeting. There were forty
four different terms that they wanted to discuss I'll read just a few of them to you mind you they are
questioning the definition and the interpretation of these. A boathouse, a deck, a dock. A dynamic
wetland, ever hear of that before? Any emerging wetland what that?
COUNCILMAN IRISH-That's a puddle.
MR. SALVADOR-An evolving wetland where do we draw the line? Navigability. Open space recreation
use. Can we use that one, I don't know maybe we can use it to advantage. Then a woods road. Definitions
are very important I don't know what role we play in this nor do I know how we're obligated to recognize
these definition in our ordinance. In all fairness to those of us who are regulated by these ordinances you
have to have consistency especially when you say my permit is contingent upon getting all other agency
permits. In affect that could preclude us from getting the permit and denying us reasonable use of our land
which you wouldn't want to do.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Don't want to do that.
DR. HOFFMAN-I promise this is my last comment. In regard to Jim Martin he raised the issue of
economic growth which is certainly another buzz word just my quick comment. Economic growth and
population growth are two completely different things. To the extent there is correlation its more one in
which economic growth results in population growth not visa versa. You don't create economic growth by
bringing in more people so let's not get the two confused. Economic growth is great, but you've got to
think about what you are really talking about.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you. I don't think anyone would argue that one.
BERNARD RAHILL-I believe that Nick Caimano said that you have a dream. Well Martin Luther King
had a dream and he got a bullet in the head. The fact is that, yes I hope that you do have a dream, but he
extended that dream over a period of five years. Over a period of five years this whole community could
be developed with the right cooperation from an appropriate Town Board. We don't want that kind of
development during the next five years as a matter of fact we want the reverse. We want to see open space.
We want to see our community held down in terms of development. Therefore let this five years be a pause
a looking back, a reflection on what we want in the Town of Queensbury. Thank you very much.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-One last comment how's that. I need to give the board members a little
opportunity here they are just anxiously waiting to speak out I'm sure.
CHERYL ROBINSON HOFFMAN-One of the things I forgot to mention is that we have hunting season
and a lot of people used to hunt in Queensbury when it had more open space. We have little peninsulas of
housing units that extend in these former hunting areas. We are in I'm not sure exactly I... ..to talk to a
conservation officer we are in an area where we are using rifles, rifles shot in a clear area will travel a mile.
In the southern zone they use shot guns which is two hundred and fifty yards maybe at the top less than
that. I would question rather we should have our hunting change for Queensbury so that we're in an area
where the projectiles don't travel so far this is something I could see in your planning.
COUNCILMAN IRISH-That's set by the State.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I think we could have a local ordinance.
MRS. HOFFMAN-This is what we get into. We would like a stop sign here to protect our children from
certain things.
COUNCILMAN IRISH-I've been trying to get a stop sign on Pershing for ten months now, I can't do that.
I don't know about restricting firearms.
MRS. HOFFMAN-We're living in the area we are when we moved there, there was a speed that was thirty
five miles an hour they up it to fifty and we kept going around in a circle between the Town, State, I don't
want to do this again with this issue. Black powered is shorter projectile I have no problem with that. I
don't have enough experience with bows and arrows to know. I would like to see something that as the
density moves further north that these other things go along with it to project our children who many of
them go and play in these, what is it, Hudson Pointe area, Rush Pond area. The ducks are no longer there,
but the hunters are still there and other areas along the mountain, West Mountain where you have the
hunters going in. Thank you very much.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-With that I like to close the public hearing and give the board an
opportunity to say a few words.
PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED 9:35 P.M.
COUNCILMAN MERRILL-I think there has been some excellent input tonight. We started this process
four years ago and we recognized at that time that the 1988 plan there are some major changes that
occurred in the Town since that plan was completed. The plan provided a good foundation, but it was
simply not up to date. There are a lot of hours that went into this thanks to a lot of good volunteers we
spent many many hours on this and the current committee is spending hours on this we also had heavy
support from the professional staff in doing this. The first thing we came to recognize is the complexity of
the Town the diversified interest in the Town and the complexity of putting together a land use plan that
would serve all of the community. We tried to get a balanced view point, I think tonight you could hear a
number of different opinions here. Preserve the green space, but we need economic development the Town
is growing you can't shut the doors. These are the things we had to face when we were deliberating on
these issue. I think the plan represents a good first step and it is just that a first step. It was mentioned that
it did not contain specifics and that's by intent because it was not the role of an Advisory Committee to
write code that's for the professionals. There is a process to go through for rezoning which involves public
hearing and more public input so it was simply not our role to get into the very specifics of Noise
Ordinances and things like that. We did recognize that this is something that should be raised, it should be
addressed, it should considered. I can tell you there are just as many view points on this side as that side
when it comes to some of these like Noise Ordinance. I think it was pointed out how do you have an
ordinance unless you can enforce it. Again, this goes well beyond what the committee could address, but
we did raise the issue. I think the plan does that Chris counted up the number of issues how many?
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MR. ROUND-There were seventy neighborhood recommendations forty town
wide.
COUNCILMAN MERRILL-It represents a first step I think in identifying these issues. What's the next
step? I think the next step is to address some of the specifics that were brought up tonight. I think the
committee would like to have heard of those two, three, four years ago and some of those the committee
did hear. We do need to address those issues the committee I believe will address them and the
professional staff will help with that. We need to clean up the document there are some suggestions about
cross reference, suggestions about definitions and that will all strengthen it. The real critical part here is to
make sure it doesn't die on the vine. I think the Implementation Plan and this is hot off the press Chris has
been working the past couple of days to put this together this is the heart of the matter here to take these
issues and move ahead to move forward to do something with this plan don't put it on the shelve. So I
think its a major step forward and I think we as a Town Board need to support the professional staff and the
committee and all of the committees in the Town in moving the plan forward to flush it out to make it a
living document.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you Dick.
COUNCILMAN TURNER-I just want to briefly say that in 1988 I did serve on that committee and we did
rewrite everything that was due to the character of the development that was coming into the Town. The
Town was loosing touch with it couldn't handle it, was going to fast, going into sensitive areas so that was a
result of that document, but with that document there was a moratorium. I believe if my memory serves me
right I think it took us about twenty five hundred hours to rewrite the whole thing and we lived with that. It
is always prudent to access that document within a five years span and bring it up to date. The Town has
dramatically change there is new people in the town. There are many new subdivisions. There is much
more traffic. I think this committee that has proposed these changes has done a great job. It is easy for the
people and sit back there and maybe criticize and they can criticize rightfully so, but there is a lot of hard
work that goes into this and I can attest to that. Certainly changes will have to be made and we will have to
address the issue that are in front of us and hopefully there will be a good resolution of everything.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thanks Ted. Anyone else over here?
COUNCILMAN IRISH-I like to remark on it. First, I like to give Chris a well done on putting this
together and the Planning Department, and the Land Use Committee I think they've done a good job with
what they've got. I think it's up to the Town Board and the residents of the Town to come together on what
they actually want to see this plan become. The other thing I like to say and it's more as a resident of the
third ward or neighborhood six than it is as a Town Board member although it's no secret that one of the
reasons if not the reason that I'm here is because of an action in Ward 3 in neighborhood six. I like to
premise my remarks on the idea that the Comprehensive Land Use Plan does not recommend sewering in
neighborhood six except for the areas around the Northway, Exit 19, west. It's well known that most of the
developable lands in this neighborhood are encompassed by what is known as Indian Ridge and the Glens
Falls Watershed property which is not developable. It appears from reading the draft Comprehensive Land
Use Plan that most of the recommendations for neighborhood six are aimed at reducing lot sizes for a
specific project whether that's by design or coincidence doesn't really matter to me. I would disagree with
the land use committee opinion that this area does not fit the description of rural residential as defined by
Chapter 179-15 of the Town Code. It does not state in the Code that only uninhabitable lands fit this
designation and most anyone that has walked the property would agree with the rural residential
description. The committee goes on to state although the property sits thirty feet above a wetland area, "the
need for three acre zoning is not apparent." I would be more comfortable with the rezoning if the property
were located thirty feet below the wetland area. The argument that three acre zoning is cost prohibited does
not ring true. According to the Capital District Business Review, Queensbury is one of the fastest growing
municipalities in the area. I believe that with clustering and a well thought out site plan the area known as
Indian Ridge could be a beautiful upscale development much like Hiland Park or Bedford Close. I would
urge the Town Board not to change the zoning in this area until or unless the area is sewered and a traffic
mitigation plan is adopted other than that you guys did a good job Chris.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you.
COUNCILMAN TUCKER-Along with Betty Monahan and dirt I've been around here awhile. I guess I've
sat through a lot of these I think people in the past, present, and people in the future will do a good job with
Queensbury. It seems strange that most of our problems is from growing and development and it isn't
stopping, boy there got to be some things here that are really good that are bringing people here. I think
one thing we've got to keep in mind is if people have land that they want to develop and they go through
this system that they should be allowed to develop it. I also believe we should work continually on a plan
for the town that it doesn't lay dormant that we work on it from day to day, it will change from day to day.
I'm sure that all of us here tonight after we are gone there will be people here to do that job. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you. I, again just want to echo what has been said. Certainly to
extend not only my congratulations, but to you Roger even my sympathy's and empathy's that go with the
kind of role that you had to play and certainly previous to that Dick Merrill's role that you played it hasn't
been easy. I remember early on with Jim Martin and Betty and other members of the board taking on this
initial task recognizing that it was going to be rather monumental and certainly that was the expectation. If
I go back to the eighty eight plan, although I did not serve on the committee I kind of followed that rather
closely. We did have an outside consultant that came in and certainly led us through that process. I have to
tell you what you see here tonight is all home spun. It's a big major, major difference in bringing in
someone from Austin, Texas that have these plans already preprinted and they just put a title of Town of
Queensbury on the cover and here's your plan. Betty's shaking her head no, that's not quite the way it
happened. I said that injest Betty, but I knew I get a reaction from you. But anyway, back then as I went
through my files back then there was approximately three hundred and ten to three hundred and twenty five
houses, single family houses being built in the Town of Queensbury on an average year. If you remember
the days the eighty seven's, eighty eight's, eighty nine's, then ninety came and things kind of took a
downhill trend. Going back, I guess in our minds today as I sit here remembering those days at three
hundred and twenty five plus houses a year and today we're cranking out about a hundred and twenty to a
hundred and thirty houses on the high side today. So we are not in the fast pace development which I mean
for some of the developers back then who were hungry things went bad, sour, thank god that the board had
the guts to pull a moratorium curtain and say enough is enough. I'm not so sure that were the today in
terms of our planning I really believe that we're well in control not to say that certainly we need the
modifications that we're looking at here today and a new vision, I believe there needs to be a new vision
here for Queensbury over the next, three, five, ten, fifteen, years down the road. I'm excited this is
probably one of the most eventful events of my term here in office. It's something that, again as Nick
Caimano identifies it as a dream, I see it a little more realistic if you will. I see this as my document its a
working document as Dick said. It is something that's not going to go on the shelve it's going to be applied
on a regular basis and I know that the professionals will step forward and will be able to take some of the
very very difficult, I have to tell you my phone rings occasionally asking me to define, explain, give me
more detail. I have a difficult time with the Code Book the way it's written today I really think we could do
with less. I really admire Chris and some of the actions that he has already taken in terms of cross
referencing some of the ordinances even with local law trying to put in place a simplified version of what
you and I have to understand in order to do business in Queensbury or to even live in Queensbury. That's
where I'm coming from you are going to be hearing more and more about this certainly in the future. I'm
the kind of person I believe that I am who feels that we need more and more input. We need to be inclusive
we don't want to go forward with this until we have rung out everybody's opinion that has an opinion out
there. Whether we do it by virtue of Bernie's survey through the printed word through or quarterly
newsletter I'm not sure that's our best approach. I'm here to tell you that I'll do my very best to make sure
as much information has been garner from you folks and the other residents of Queensbury as we possibly
can. That's not to complicate the issue, I see your hand go up over there.
MR. RUEL-Ijust have a question. There are thousand of citizens here in Queensbury we have a handful
here tonight am I to assume because they are not here they don't have any adverse comments about this?
SUPERVISOR CHAMP AGNE-I don't think we can assume that.
MR. RUEL-Or are they more interested in Monday Night Football?
SUPERVISOR CHAMP AGNE-I think Dr. Hoffman said it very clearly. I think we did a good job with our
display ad and our articles in the newspaper. John Giroux certainly at the Post Star got it out there. I think
we have to be aggressive we have to force people to become more involved in government. Believe me
there is no better way to become involved in government that's through the planning document.
MR. RUEL-One gentlemen here insisted that we should have some sort of a survey. I've been in other
communities that have had surveys you are lucky to get two percent response.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I don't think we want to rush out with idea.
MR. RUEL-I think you can try it, but I don't think it will be too successful and this can go on forever.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I understand that.
COUNCILMAN MERRILL-That's the point Fred it could go on forever. We did have an open house here
and we had an outstanding turn out that day.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Yes, we did.
COUNCILMAN MERRILL-We've had countless neighborhood meetings the turnout been very minimal.
The plan has been distributed as far as we can distribute it, it's available at the Crandall Library and so forth
at some point we have to stop somewhere.
MR. RUEL-It's been my experience as a writer after the manual is written and after everyone had an
opportunity to say something about it then all the comments come in after I've printed two thousand copies
it's the same thing here.
COUNCILMAN MERRILL-This is not perfect it.
MR. RUEL-Of course not it was done my human beings.
COUNCILMAN MERRILL-But, we have to solidify it at some point and go on and upgrade it.
MR. RUEL-My time on the committee I never sensed that much emphasize on open space as I did here this
evening. There was some, but here it seems to be quite heavy. I think open space is a matter of opinion as
far as where people have lived prior, too. I'm from a New York City area I moved here eight years ago this
is the north country I have never seen so much open space in my life. There is no traffic in this area it all
depends where you came from. I think a lot of the people that constantly insist on open space I think they
were born here and there was nobody here. Listen on the Planning Board we had somebody say, hey I built
this house here thirty years ago. You know some guy down the street now wants to build a house. I said
the area was zoned for that didn't you know that when you brought this property, he only has half an acre.
He said, yeah I knew that, but I don't want anybody near me, you know that's the feeling I get. As Pliney
indicated the developers come in they own the land and even if they are not developers they own the land
and they want to put a house on it how can the Town Board, Planning Board deny them the fact that they
can't build, I don't understand that.
COUNCILMAN MERRILL-It's a complex balancing act here obviously. I think it's time to move on with
it not beat it to death. That's what we're trying to do is beat it to death let's take another two years to revise
it.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I think the hard part is now is to take a look at the ordinances that are
going to fit the plan that to me is the... job.
MR. RUEL-Ifyou want something done to it here it is.
SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Okay, we've closed the public hearing. Thank you very much it's been an
enjoyable meeting.
PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED 10:00 P.M.
On motion the meeting was adjourned.
Respectfully Submitted,
Darleen M. Dougher
Town Clerk
Town of Queensbury