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1999-06-30 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING JUNE 30, 1999 7:00 p.m. MTG. #20 TOWN BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT SUPERVISOR FRED CHAMPAGNE COUNCILMAN RICHARD MERRILL COUNCILMAN THEODORE TURNER COUNCILMAN PLINEY TUCKER ABSENT: COUNCILMAN DOUGLAS IRISH QUEENSBURY TOWN PLANNING BOARD CHAIRMAN CRAIG MacEWAN MEMBER ROBERT PALING MEMBER CATHERINE LABOMBARD MEMBER ROBERT VOLLARO MEMBER LARRY RINGER ABSENT: MEMBER TIMOTHY BREWER GUESTS: ATTORNEY JOHN LEMERY-Representing Great Escape MR. JOHN COLLINS-Vice President -General Manager of Great Escape MR. JAMES MARTIN-LA Group MR. JOE SPORKO-LA Group SUPERVISOR FRED CHAMPAGNE-Led the Pledge of Allegiance Introduced the Town Board that is here this evening and then I will turn the meeting over to Craig MacEwan who serves as the Chairman of the Town Planning Committee. To my immediate right is Dick Merrill, next to Dick to the right is Ted Turner, Mr. Tucker, Pliney Tucker, and town Counsel Mark Schachner and our Town Clerk Darleen Dougher. With that said Craig I would like to turn it over to you for introductions and whatever comments you have. Thank you very much. MR. CRAIG MacEW AN-Thank you Fred, I am Craig MacEwan Chairman of the Town Planning Board and to my right is Cathy Labombard, Bob Vollaro, Bob Paling and Larry Ringer. A couple of ground rilles we are going to set tonight, tonight's workshop session is something that the Planning Board set up approximately a month and a half ago with the people from the Great Escape. There is no public comment, there is no public hearing scheduled for tonight. This is just a discussion that we are going to try to understand with what representatives of the Great Escape are going to show us and some of the plans that they have and bring us up to speed in some of the land acquisitions that they have recently acquired and so we can get a better handle on where we think we think they are going and where they want to go and how we can work together to help them achieve some of their goals and try to do things the right way. With that I will turn it over to you, John. ATTORNEY JOHN LEMERY-Good evening, my name is John Lemery, Counsel to the Great Escape. We have with us tonight Joe Sporko and Jim Martin of the LA Group the Land Planning Consultants for the Great Escape Theme Park, John Collins the Vice President and General Manager of the Park and Jack Leobowitz my partner of the Law Firm of Lemery and McCrell. A few months ago when the Great Escape filed an application to the Planning Board as it does whenever it has an attraction which is going to involve the requirement for site plan review under the town zoning ordinance. An application is prepared and filed with the Town as was the case when the park applied for an application to construct the new indoor roller coaster at the park the so called Nightmare Ride and the Go Cart Track inside the park. At that time there was discussion among the members of the Planning Board concerning parking. During the course of the last several applications before the Planning Board other than issues that are unique to the Planning Board approval regarding such things as storm water management the lighting within the area of the new attraction, how cueing is going to be resolved for the new attraction how people will cue up to it. Safety issues, Department of Health Issues such as septic and those kinds of things. There was always a concern on the part of the Planning Board regarding the ability of the park to deal with traffic and pedestrian crossing Route 9 to get into the site. Jim Martin and Joe Sporko are going to talk about the way this particular site is zoned what it is zoned for and the issues relating to the zoning, but before we get to that, the Great Escape had a promotion in I think it was January or February regarding putting together season passes and they had a reduction in price over it last year. It is typical of most of us, nobody really took advantage of it until very late in early May when it became clear that there was a tremendous outpouring of response, tremendous response to the request for season passes. Great Escape actually had to stay open well beyond what they thought they would have to stay and provide services for people in order to access the passes and those kinds of things. It became clear to John and the park management that there had to be a need to address parking. That the existing parking which was really acquired at the time the park was acquired from Charles Wood might not be able to handle it. At that time we were directed and asked by the management of the park to see if we could acquire some additional land on the west side of Route 9 for the purposes of providing parking and in effect own the site so that the Great Escape would have within its confines the ability to deal with parking on a future basis. With that in mind the acquisitions took place very quickly because it wasn't until very late in the spring that it was determined that there was going to be a need for some additional parking because of the not only the season passes but marketing efforts made by Premier Parks and the Great Escape which John Collins is going to discuss in some detail with the two boards here tonight. So, with that in mind a some acquisitions started to take place immediately. The property owned by Dave and Cheryl Kenny behind the Coachman was acquired. The Coachman Restaurant was acquired by the Great Escape it was acquired to operate as a restaurant but it also provided some additional access west of the restaurant, but it had always been in the plan of the park to at the time when it became available to talk to Mr. Wood about acquiring it and operating it as a restaurant and continuing to operate it as a restaurant. It was so happen that the Samoset Motel was for sale it had been listed by an Albany Broker it was on the market and a offer was made and accepted to acquire the motel. The motel is being operated by the Great Escape and at about that time it because clear in order to round out what parking probably was going to be needed they needed to approach Kay's Motel that was done and Kay's Motel was acquired. We approached the owners of Martha's Restaurant the LaFountains and the purpose there was not to acquire Martha's Restaurant but to see if we could acquire a piece of land in the back of Martha's so that we could tie in on the site and you will see when the fellows go through the site the concept plan. We could acquire land in the back so as to access the Animal Land parcel from the back which is already owned and was acquired a couple of years ago by the Great Escape. Mr. Lafountain said that he was not interested in doing that transaction but he would be interested in selling the entire operation and so they came to terms and Martha's was acquired. We were very concerned about all of the rumors that were flying all around the Town and so John Collins and Roger Lafountain made it a point to talk to both the Post Star and the Chronicle about the plans for Martha's which are and continue to be and will be operated just as it is operated to operate the ice cream facility, operate the motel there and the insulatory profit centers and business that are run. There is no plan to bull doze it down or anything else none of us up there would want to bear that responsibility. The whole purpose of the meeting with the Planning Board was to just sort of have a workshop session to talk about well, here is where we are and that took place before these acquisitions were made these acquisitions were made because of the response and that is why it was done. There is no plan to expand the amusement park to the other side of Route 9, none whatsoever. In fact it is not zoned for it, it is zoned RC, it is not zoned RC15 it is zoned commercial. There is no plan for that, it is not in anybody's mind to do that. It would not work, we do not think. So, one of the thing we wanted to try to get clear tonight, was that there is no plan on the part of the park to go west of Route 9 and operate anything other than parking and the existing businesses that are operated there now. That is not to say that in the future the Great Escape might have some plans to develop some of those areas back there that might not be needed for parking. Weare coming into the Planning Board in the next in fact I think the application was filed today for the Phyllis Holtz property the property adjacent to the Coachman Restaurant, the Coachhouse restaurant I should say and the Kay's Motel which would provide for an additional sixteen hundred cars. That basically takes care of six thousand people, within that area. There is no plan to bring at this point in time any application before the Planning Board to deal with Samoset Motel there is no present plan to tear it down or to use it for a parking lot. However it is there and the land is controlled now by the Great Escape if the need at some point arises. The idea of putting a pedestrian bridge over Route 9 was the subject of a great deal of concern, not only by the Town Planning Board but the County Planning Board. In the last couple of times when applications were sent into the Town and County Planning Board there was concern about how to address bring people over Route 9. The first thing that was addressed was putting signaling in there obviously and putting crossing areas in there and trying to get people to cue up and cross at those areas. The Great Escape is now putting out Requests for Proposals from Engineering firms to design a pedestrian bridge which would come from the parking lot on the west side go over Route 9 and connect to the main gate for people to come in to the park and basically get over Route 9. Obviously, it would be designed in accordance with the Americans for Disability Act so it will take up some room, the design is not in any kind of final form we do not even have it here, by way of any concept. There was some discussion about whether or not a tunnel might work just north of the restaurant and come under Route 9 and bring people over that way but it may be easier to get people over on some sort of pedestrian walkway and get them over to the park. The area right near the park or where the gate entrance is located is not suitable for any kind of underground access. We should point out that every time the Great Escape has come before the Planning Board for a approval of an attraction within the park, when I speak of within the park I speak of the amusement park as it is zoned as an amusement park on the east side of Route 9. The park that is available there is a one hundred foot buffer, buffering the Glen Lake Fen area and that is not utilized obviously, no wetlands are utilized. But, only that area within the park which is zoned and which would be acceptable to the Planning Board is within the zoning with out having to get a variance. We did have to get one variance for height but John will explain to you how when all is said and done the Great Escape lowered the building even beyond what the Zoning Board required so that it really was not visible from Route 9. But in any event every time that the Great Escape has come before the Planning Board to locate a new attraction within the park and we should say that the net new attractions within the park since it was acquired by Premier was, what, two? One, so that net change has been one attraction. Rides have been taken out attractions have been taken out what has gone on is one new attraction. Every time that the Great Escape has come before the Planning Board is with a complete application there is a topo map that is prepared with elevation sketches. The ride is very detailed there is a complete landscape plan that is put before the Planning Board there is a storm water management plan all done by engineers hired by the Great Escape to do it, lighting plans are put into effect, ingress and egress to the area are provided for so that each one of these attractions which have come in within the park have been the subject of compliance with the zoning statue and consultations with the Planning Board. I think we can say that every single recommendation that the Planning Board has requested and asked for has been done by the Great Escape. For example, one of the members of the Planning Board wanted a fence built between the Adirondack, the Coachman and the parking lot and that was done this year. It was not a requirement it was a request. Other requests that they have asked for have been put into effect. There as an issue with the, that surfaced with the toboggan ride which made some noise, engineers have been retained to deal with that issue and John will speak to the commitment of Premier Parks to deal with these situations on a one on one basis as they occur. There was a situation last year where apparently there was a band or something that played loud and they were asked to turn it down and these kinds of thinks are addressed on a one on one basis by the Park as they have shown up and people have reacted to them. The purpose of tonights meeting is to have a dialog with the Planning Board to try to answer some of the issues that they have addressed principally parking and adequate parking for the park and the pedestrian crossing but also to try and answer any other issues that they might have. The concept plan that you are going to be shown by Jim Martin, Joe Sporko and will be discussed by John Collins is a concept plan only, it is not meant to be a master plan it is not meant to be written in stone, it is not meant to be final it is simply a concept which has been developed to suggest how they might get the traffic off Route 9 and into the park sooner and how those parcels which were recently acquired can be accessed without imposing any further burden onto Route 9. We have said to the Planning Board I might add on a number of occasions that the traffic issues with Route 9 are caused to the extent that they are caused by a lot of factors not the Great Escape alone. the entire area north of the Great Escape is a large shopping area that has a big traffic impact to it, the restaurants, the restaurants south of here the attraction south of here we live in an area where we have summer recreation, summer recreation is going to impose burdens that for a period of ninety days we live with, the Great Escape is no different. With that, unless one of my colleagues has a comment I would like to ask Jim Martin and Joe to the extent however you want to do it to put the concept plan that we have put together on the board and talk to the Planning Board and Town Board about that. MR. JAMES MARTIN-Thanks John. What I thought I would do is just start by orienting everybody in terms of the location of the park and the general over all area of the town I apologize for the scale of this and the size of the room but, it will get better as we get into the larger site plan here. Running up through the center here obviously is the Northway paralleling that is Route 9 and what I have shown here in blue is the amusement park area here itself, that area of the holdings of the Great Escape that comprise the active amusement center. Showing in a larger bolder black line I again apologize to the people in the back, is all the holdings of Great Escape including new parcels that have been purchased on the west side of Route 9. What is probably not known by a lot of people is that. . . PLANNING BOARD MEMBER ROBERT VOLLARO-Jim could you stand on the other side... MR. JAMES MARTIN-I make a better door don't I, short mic cord though. I will stand back here how will that be can you see better that way? So, shown in blue here is the amusement center itself now what it probably not known by a lot people is that also west of the Northway even the Great Escape does own some property there predominately what is referred to by a lot of people in the community as Rush Pond, that is also part of the holdings and there will be some more discussions about that parcel later on tonight. So, that orients you in the over all area of the town you can see the parcels in the area are also shown on here and you can get to see a little accounting of how development has occurred in this area of the town. You can see for example Court House Estates the Twicwood Subdivision down here to the south and areas west of the Northway. This is just to show how it falls in relationship to the rest of the community, Glen Lake is shown here in that area. What I wanted to emphasize in reading some of the comments in the paper and so on it seems like there is a perception that there is going to be requiring a change with what is going to be shown here as concepts in the town land use plan or its zoning plan, that is not true. What you will see will be totally consistent with the land use plan and the zoning plan as it is in place in the town today. What is shown here, this is Route 9 running left to right this spine here ok, RC15 is here which is the active park area amusement center area that John referred to earlier to the left we have RR3 acre zoning which is on the other side of Round Pond Road which is shown here the Used Car Dealership is in the HClA and the Wakita Motel is here on the corner of Round Pond and Route 9 and across here these are the holdings that have been recently purchased Samoset the Kenny parcel the Holtz parcel the Coachhouse these two parcels here were previously owned where people have traditionally seen parking, Kay's Motel, Martha's and what was formally Animal Land Zoological Park is here all the way to the left. Now, what is shown here is the current zoning in the town and that is Highway Commercial One Acre Zoning throughout this whole stretch and actually it proceeds south and also extends north of here also. So, that is the most intense commercial zoning allowed in the Town is anybody who has been before the Board or come to any of the meetings in the town knows that is where virtually any type commercial uses we know it is allowed in this zone. That also extends on the east side of Route 9 though this area and also a little bit up here by the Trading Post. The SFRl Acre Zoning here is shown is the Towns are residential zoning district single family dwelling that comprises the Warren County Municipal Center property here and Court House Estates more down in this direction. Now, coming up through the middle as you might suspect in light of the natural constraints of the area and its environmental importance is Land Conservation 42 Acre, and that extends over what is commonly referred to as the Glen Lake Fen. So, that is the zoning plan through the area and I just, we just thought it was important to emphasize that what you will be hearing about tonight is completely consistent with the land use plan for the town and the zoning plan for the town there will be no variance required, zone changes required or anything of that nature it is completely compliant. With that said I thought I would turn it over to Joe we will flip down now to the concept plan and he can get into some of the details behind the design there. The one thing I wanted to mention is that we will also be around after the meeting for a period of time if people have questions directly of us after they hear about this we will be available to answer any questions that you might have. MR. JOE SPORKO- Thanks, Jirn. We were asked as land planners by John and management of Great Escape to take a look at the land we are talking about which is the land on the west side of Route 9 and with the idea of making improvements for the park patron for parking and traffic how to best utilize this land. So, this diagram that you see here and as Jim mentioned if you can't see it where you are sitting, you probably can't, we are going to hang around for a while afterwords after we are done, please feel free to come up and take a closer look. What this is, is a plan with a bunch of colored bubbles which we as planners like and the reason we start off with a plan with colored bubbles is because it is a very conceptual plan, it is diagram, we do this first because it enables us to look at the overall situation first before you start fine tuning a particular area. So, to make sure that you can best utilize what you have. So, what I am going to do is run through this starting on the northern end, this is the Samoset property, it contains the cabins, a lot of wooded areas, there is some nice flat areas there. As mentioned, we have no current plans for that, Samoset, will stay for now, however in the future parking can fit there, it may be a good place to put parking at some point. Next parcel down is the Kenny property which was used as a single family home, again that next to the Samoset same type of thing, could be reserved for future development of parking. If in the future it is determined that based on marketing and how well the park is doing if more parking is even needed. Further down, we have the Holtz property which is the office building and some land, most of the land is wooded, it is a hillside so we could, we will develop that for some parking and the parking will be developed, you see some green lines around this, this would be some pretty substantial buffering because there is topo to contend with and there is wooded areas that we would like to leave in place as some buffering. Behind property, there is a natural low area which we feel would make a nice storm water retention basin, because we feel that with the addition of parking we would be addressing storm water and that is a good place to put such a basin. Next property down is the Coachman Restaurant, we are showing here labeled a little lighter and labeled EP, existing parking, there is parking there now, there is room in the back of that parcel to put additional parking. Now, further down the two existing lots which were shown in light and labeled EP, with the existing pass over the stream right now. Next to that Kay's Motel that is an area we want to utilize for additional parking that is part of the planned expansion for next month we are submitting application to the Town for Site Plan Review for this area here. This area would include everything we have labeled PP and in brown. Behind that is, or next to it is Martha's Ice Cream which would be staying as is, Martha's Ice Cream would be continuing operation Motel and the Ice Cream and Restaurant would stay as it is. The land in the back however could be utilized for parking and we are showing additional parking there. Next door to that the former Animal land property again we are showing parking there toward the front in two lots and parking on a piece located in the back. I think more importantly then parking perhaps is how we handle traffic, offfrom Route 9 and the cueing of traffic to relieve some of the extra pressure that is put on Route 9. Now, with the idea that we have in this plan is conceptually the ideal situation would be to have an extra lane off Route 9, south bound this would be a dedicated lane for a person coming off the exit 20 interchange signed, Great Escape a person drives into the Great Escape Lane and can proceed south down Route 9 thereby relieving some of that backup and bottleneck that occurs on the one lane that you have going south. So, we feel that idea wise would be the best way to approach that. We are showing this line through this parcel to the north which is owned by the County, ideally the best solution would be to get traffic off Route 9 as soon as possible it would allow for additional cueing time within the park property and get it off Route 9. So, that would be another improvement that would be an ideal situation to relieve some of that tension on Route 9. We are showing in red along the rear of all of these parcels a connection and that would be basically amount to another loop road paralleling Route 9 which can connect all these parcels and allow traffic to both cue up and to enter the parking lots. So, again, getting traffic off Route 9 get the traffic onto the interior loop road and then into the parking lots which could happen very quickly and very nicely. The other thing I wanted to point out is that this again would be phased over a period of time, all this parking would not be needed at once, what we are showing here in brown are the areas that we are proposing to add this year. So, in the future the wise planning thing to do is to have a plan and have something in the future that you could plan for should it be needed and that is really what this plan is really trying to do. The other thing is safety, safety for the pedestrians particularly crossing Route 9. What we are showing the pedestrian bridge that we discussed we are looking at a possible location near the center of the two parking areas between the two traffic signals, location really kind of have to be determined once the engineering firm gets hired to start looking at that, but ideally we think that this would possibly be a good location. I am going to turn it over to John. MR. JOHN COLLINS-I don't really have any additional comments on the map you pretty much see what they were speaking about. One of the things Martha's purchase did enable us to do or will enable us to do is now we can even address that ingress and egress, because we own the zoo property so there may be something we can do there to help that situation. The biggest thing I want to stress is my corporation reacts what you guys asked for. An issue came up on the visual impact of the Nightmare it wasn't cheap but we buried it eight feet in the ground, it set us back a month but we did it and visually there is less of an impact, there was a concern there. Parking was an issue and when we sold that many season passes people asked do you always move this quickly, yes, when we have to. We went out and got all this land so we can take care of our guests and hopefully create, you know, minimal inconvenience to everybody here in this room. So, that is pretty much all I have on this right now. MR. JOHN LEMERY-I just want to point out that obviously this land here is not owned by the Great Escape it is just a concept of getting the, as Joe pointed out, getting the traffic off both Exits off 87 and that basically gets that traffic that is currently from time to time backing up on 87 gets it off 87 and gets it on an access road that would be at some point in time put in by the park. This area in blue showing on the map as amusement development we want to make it clear please, to everyone that this is not necessarily where some other attraction would show up in the park. There is a lot of land within this area that is zoned that is not utilized by the Great Escape as a amusements and from time to time things get obsolete and taken out and new things get put in. All we wanted to try to show the Planning Board here was that there are lots of areas within the park that would be available for additional attractions within the park without having to look for any additional land for purposes of the amusement park itself so there is no plan to do that it is all available within the park. So, for example some of the services that are now done within the park there is warehousing that is done in here for example that might get moved off site to a zone that permits warehousing which then frees up and area in the park to attract an additional attraction. This area shown in green here is the one hundred foot buffer that was imposed by the Planning Board a few years ago when the park was owned by Charles Wood and I forget what the attraction was at the time that was planned, but those in agreement at that time to provide a one hundred foot buffer around the area of the wetland and that is shown here in the green. This is where the park would be operating, this is the wetland, these are wetlands and other and the buffers required by DEC here so there is no building here, there would a stream crossing permit probably back here to link up this road along the back to feed the park in the back there. This is conceptual in nature it is not meant to be and you will see that it doesn't reflect any master plan because that is not what it is. We do want to talk to the Planning Board and the Town Board at some point this evening about some of the concerns we have had about this and whether it might be possible at some point in time to talk to the Town and the County, this is County land here, about getting an access and we, John wants to talk a little bit also about some of the things that the park might be able to do for the town regarding the area on the other side of 87 the Rush Pond area in order to make it more attractive to the residents of the Town. So, with that does anyone else have anything else to add of our side before we try to answer some questions? John, Jack, Thank you. CHAIRMAN CRAIG MacEWAN-I just wanted to make one comment and ask John if he would not mind commenting to it when in discussion last week how the park is addressing the noise concerns regarding the Bobsled ride, could you just maybe fill in the audience a little bit about some of the measurers you have taken with that? MR. JOHN COLLINS-Yes. I believe it was the first week in June which is June 3rd and 4th if I am not mistaken we brought in an engineering firm, an acoustic engineering firm out of Dallas, Texas to do a sound study on the Bobsled. They went around to points in Twicwood, Glen Lake, Courthouse Estates and I believe on the other side of the hill which is near the Whalen property and took sound measurements. My corporate chairman loves this park and he is going to do whatever it takes to make sure he is a good corporate citizen and his exact words were I would rather spend two hundred thousand to fix the problem then spend forty thousand and say gee, we tried. So, as opposed to what we thought would help spraying foam on the bottom side of the ride, we are having it double checked by engineering to get a recommendation from thern. That is not to say anything can be done, I am not going to sit here and tell you it may change, because it may not. But, if they come back with some recommendations we will certainly look at implementing those but the studies have been completed as far as the noise level now the engineering starts to see if there is anything we can do about it. Is that pretty much what you needed, and they are out of Dallas, Texas, Pendleton Marsh is their name. CHAIRMAN CRAIG MacEWAN-Well I guess the big issue to start with right off the back is lets start dealing with the traffic issue and I know in conversations that you have had with Supervisor Champagne regarding lines to create an access road... UNKNOWN-We cannot hear you. CHAIRMAN CRAIG MacEWAN-In regards with the traffic problems on Route 9 and conversations that have been taken place informally with members of the Town Board this would probably be a good opportunity to start discussion and maybe what we can do as a community to help alleviate some of the traffic pressure by seeing what is available to do something with the County. MR. JOHN COLLINS-I do not mean to make a comment here but take the bus. Ok. If you are a season pass holder get on the bus. This is one of the things that I, we did prior to purchasing land and I do not mean to interrupt Craig, but I just want to make this point. When we heard traffic, traffic, traffic, parking, parking, parking we made two big decisions. First of all, we are going to support mass transit through sponsorship of an express bus when we are not the only one there are other people doing it as well that deserves credit, but we want to get people to start taking the bus. We stress our employees take the bus, we have a good public transportation system and they have laid out a line where by it runs up and down an express route let alone the trolley system. We are now big time packaging with hotel and motel owners, pre-selling our tickets so that people do not stand in front of our main gate which happens to be a drop off area as well to get people into the park. And we are stressing to them, please promote Glens Falls transit, public transportation in getting people to the park. We need as a community, people especially, with the season pass holders, that we have if you have got a lot of people in this room with season pass holders, I know that a lot of you are local people and maybe able to walk, take the bus help the situation. It is very inexpensive, drops you right off at the front gate, but we are trying to promote that we are running ads to help promote it through no support of Glens Falls Transit. We are doing that on our own, we are taking these types of steps to help traffic even before we purchased the properties. Sorry about that Craig. SUPERVISOR FRED CHAMPAGNE-John, I guess I would like to jump in here. Today, while at a meeting at the Court house or at the Municipal Center I was asked by a number of folks, come on Fred I would like you to have a look out the window, I do not know whether this is going to be the worst day of the summer or maybe your best day but to be very honest and very frank that traffic was backed up on cueing on the Northway going north back down to Rush Pond. The folks that were waiting to get into the Great Escape at Rush Pond could look over and watch the people being parked. The same is true going north for the south bound folks to get off, something at least in my opinion for the safety of the people coming into the park some way some how sooner than later we really need to take a look at how we are going to get these folks off that Northway. As I said to John Lemery today I do not know if it is the parking attendants that can move the traffic faster or is there some way that we can even get a side road to get you in there sooner or quicker or better than what we are doing right now. That needs immediate attention I have some strong feelings about that. I do not know if there is anything possible but I sure would want to go to every length in order to make that happen. MR. JOHN COLLINS-I agree with you Fred. We are in a situation where and this is the future but we have multiple lots ok and that is what we deal with is mu1tiple lots and I believe, Chris Round I was talking with Chris and if we can promote people getting off alternate exits, exit 19, our season basis helped people because they are local they are getting a lot more people coming from the South vs from the North. Today if I were, it was a fluke, yes, is it going to be busy, yes, it was a fluke because we had two days of rain and we had a season pass offer that expired today. Ok. It was their last day they could bring a friend for free. Everybody brought a friend for free. SUPERVISOR FRED CHAMPAGNE-With two cars. MR. JOHN COLLINS-Yes, exactly. But we had two days of rain, this park with the tourism business that this region does, does extremely well the day after a rainy day. If you want me to tell you when to expect busy days, if I have a day of rain you can expect that it can be busy the next day that is the one thing I leamed when I came here immediately was that we just knock the doors off, regardless of the season pass sales, knock the doors off after a day ofrain. We had two of them and we are coming toward the 4th of July a lot of people starting to come into town I do not need to tell you I think if there are any business owners out here they can tell you, the economy is doing well and people are spending money. Ok. So it is going to be a busy summer. What we can do today or what we can do down the road to help that situation is get this parking plan approved that we are submitting for next month or I guess it is this coming month as of tomorrow. CHAIRMAN CRAIG MacEWAN-Well, at this point I will open it up for either board if anyone wants to ask questions to start the proceedings. MEMBER BOB VOLLARO- Yes, I would like to ask a question. I understand the traffic flow, what about if people get off at exit 19 and want to get to the park? Now, they are traveling north, they do not get off at 20, don't make that loop turn don't come down the one new lane that you are proposing what is the story with that, how do we get around that? Is it signage or? MR. JAMES MARTIN-I think it is going to be a combination of things and at the conceptual level that we are at right now, I should mention a traffic engineer has been retained to study this situation throughout the summer, so we have an analysis to base actual bricks and mortar on rather than just concepts and that is starting this tuesday. But anyhow in response to your question for those who are, who may have deviated from coming up exit 20 and what to get off at 19 and are coming northward on Route 9 and they are looking to get into the park we are proposing that this loop road have such a design that it transcends this whole property and come back out here and intersects with Round Pond here. So, you have a four way intersection there so that person coming up with their family or whatever would be caught in there at that first opportunity turning left in there, so if that happens there and there would be I would imagine you would have to have some cueing distance here on Route 9 to accommodate that, but that will be studied. Now, but first and foremost which would be a better situation than that, is to have signage on the Northway once, if this system was fully installed to capture them, direct them to exit 20 and have them utilize this much more free flowing direct route into the parking system and by-pass any impact on the public right of way. That would be the preferred situation. MEMBER ROBERT VOLLARO-I am not sure about this statement but I do not know whether or not the interstate allow signage for private operations, and I do not know, I intend to find out, but I do not know whether they do or not. MR. JAMES MARTIN-Well, I think from the standpoint like I will site the example of a Gore Mountain, or West Mountain, they have signs that direct you to an exit to access West Mountain is a private area, Whiteface and Gore are public, but that is what I think of in the back of my mind when I say a sign directing them to a particular exit to access this facility. MEMBER LARRY RINGER-Jim, I am having trouble understanding, exit 19 already is probably one of the worst problem, why are we directing traffic why would we want traffic to go on Aviation Road when that left hand turn is already poor. . . MR. JAMES MARTIN-That is correct that would be my point for directing to exit 20 once this system is in place if it were built as designed here this would be a preferred situation to come to 20 and avoid 19. MEMBER LARRY RINGER-I agree with that but I thought Johnny said that one of the intent is to try to put traffic on exit 19 right now. MR. JAMES MARTIN-In the interim until this is done, I think a dispersal is probably the only thing you have... MEMBER LARRY RINGER-...it is a poor intersection already there, it does not make sense to me. MR. JAMES MARTIN-Right, I agree. MEMBER ROBERT VOLLARO-One of the things that I would like to see is an end to end study the cumulative effects from exit 19 to exit 20 because I think that there is going to be The Great Escape, being probably the biggest contributor now that you have Martha's, at one time Martha's was the destination and it still will be I am sure. But, I think taking a look you have got a new eighty four unit motel going up between just the other side of the Ponderosa just been approved The Sleep Inn, by name, which in itself is not a traffic generator. UNKNOWN-It is not approved yet. MEMBER ROBERT VOLLARO-No, it isn't but I suspect that it is pretty close, I am just trying to take a look at what the cumulative impacts along that route will be from exit to exit. You know we have asked for a generic environmental impact statement, what I have heard here tonight is all the ingredient that you would have to use to determine a generic environmental impact statement has almost already been stated. I took the time today to read what is involved in preparing a generic environmental impact statement and it is a great planning tool. It seems to me that the Great Escape ought to jump on something like that as a planning tool for the future. I think that this Board has asked for us to look at an environmental impact statement and particularly a generic one which has very little binding qualities other than planning by the way it is very clear in the law that that is what it is for. So that is where I am coming from I would like to see an end to end study of 19 to 20. CHAIRMAN CRAIG MacEWAN-Anybody else? ATTORNEY JOHN LEMERY-Would it be your intent that all the businesses on Route 9 all the way up to the Great Escape would contribute to that, Walmart and everybody else would pay their share of such statement? MEMBER ROBERT VOLLARO- They would probably have to because obviously you are not the only contributor, but, I see it now, I look at this as the beginning of a new phase in the Great Escape development. In answer to your question I could not, I could not sit here and say that the other people do not have a contribution to make but certainly the biggest contribution in the planning end of it would be the Great Escape. ATTORNEY JACK LEOBOWITZ-Jim Martin and I have been looking at the SEQRA aspects of both the individual incremental site plan application that have to come in this summer and in terms of the over all generic impact of this program, I think that kind of where we are coming out on this is that we sort of got to respectfully disagree with you that this plan presents some kind of cumulative over all impact that would require or either a SEQRA environmental impact statement or that the community would benefit from an environmental impact statement from this. I think if you look at what this plan is this is basically to provide for mitigation of existing traffic congestion conditions out on Route 9. The park has been here for something like 45 years, we were looking at what the extent to which the developed area of the park has changed, and it appears since 1984 you do not have any more than the fifty acres that is currently being used for the amusement area part of the park. When we looked at this either in terms of the possible segmentation in terms of do we put in individual application in for parking or the kind of applications that John has been talking about every year you come in with an amendment to your site plan which is required, and you start asking yourself do these things have either a cumulative impact or an additional environmental impact. It is really hard to see how, what we would write an impact statement about and you know I think that in term of the marching orders that we had from our client from Premier Parks to, to solve your problems, you know, John is accurate, that they want to do things that are community minded and solve real problems but we also hear loud and clear that they are not really enthusiastic about the ... they are not really enthusiastic about idea of burning up tens of thousands of dollars to do a study for study sake to just generate a lot of papers to you know to deal with concerns that are basically illusory or perception. I think what the plan is right now is in terms of the two things in this over all long range plan that need to be done, an additional parking lot proposal that came in today. We would like the boards to look at that as any other, in a normal SEQRA review and to decide whether any of the things that are disclosed in that long environmental assessment form add up to something that may have significant adverse environmental impact and quite frankly we cannot see it. We are solving the parking problem there is some garden variety storm water issues the bumpers are being left on the parking area but you know what do you need an environmental impact statement for, for a parking lot when you are mitigating existing conditions. MR. JOHN COLLINS-I have been at our meetings, obviously I have been at our meetings, but we have been in front of you for the past three years and the County has said do something about the pedestrians ok, so we did that., ok we are going to do a pedestrian bridge now whether it happens for the year 2000 I have never built one we do have some experience with them not only does is handle pedestrian traffic but I believe everyone in here will agree it also helps you alleviate a lot of your car traffic problems because you do not have people walking against the lights and things of that nature so that is going to speed up the traffic flow through the area. So we are doing that and every time we are in front of the Town it was parking, parking, parking, well we did that, we went out and got parking, ok. It so happened that we got it fast because we had a great season pass program that really went over real well and we had to address it this year. So, we have done that, so Jack is right to come out and say we need a generic statement on what we are doing, we are doing everything you have asked. We do more than that, ok. We have and I still kick myself for doing this we had a Christian Festival two weekends ago we are talking about the number one Christian group in the country and six thousand youths and with the problem with society that happens in other places we had six thousand good kids that I am screaming at telling them to turn the music down because I have got people calling me. I am thinking, what in the world am I doing, here is a Christian group, granted I would not listen to that Christian music, but Christian music group that did turn it down ten decimals and if you know anything about music you understand what a huge change that is I am screaming at that because I am responding to people calling me. So, to sit here and say gee, you need a planning tool because we do not think you look at issues is ridiculous. I am sorry to say that, but we do and we respond to questions and concerns when they are addressed in the forum we are under. MEMBER ROBERT PALING-I would like to comment on that if! could, we have an eighty one unit motel probably will be going in and that doesn't effect traffic. UNKNOWN-Please use the mic. MEMBER ROBERT PALING-I am sorry, we have an eighty one unit motel that is probably going to go in and as the applicant says that doesn't effect traffic very much and your expanding in you have got to be bring more and more people in and that is great, you have great summer employment for College Students for the retired you pay a lot of taxes and you are an opportunity not a problem. However, we cannot keep loading down Route 9 with a motel and then something at Great Escape and then something else, some day we are going to put the straw on their that will break the camels back. When you come off from interstate 87 on Aviation Road and come to the intersection of 254 and Route 9 that is rated a D, E is failure from an A to F scale and that is where that intersection the worst one we have got. These little straws we add are going to make it worst, what I think should be done is that the Town should step into this situation and somehow cause an EIS for the entire area as Bob says from 19 to 20 to be done not necessarily paid for by Great Escape but somehow we have got to have guidance and when people come in and say well I am only going to put in eighty units motel in I am only going to do, I am going to expand my go cart track but when do we stop and say we cannot take any more traffic. We have got to do this not against you but in conjunction with what you do. You said you have hired a traffic engineer, why don't we make that part of the whole study, let the Town get involved and benefit from what you are doing and you benefit from what we could do. MR. JAMES MARTIN-Well, in response to that an intersection study was done of the Route 9, 254 intersection back in 1994 and there is yet to be one element of that plan realized. There are tough decisions to be made with that interchange and not one thing has been done. That study is there, it is done, it was done by a qualified transportation consultant sponsored by the Town and the local transportation council. So, it just flounders, it just remains there. That has been done, now from the standpoint of our traffic analysis as part of that there will be projections made of how many cars are coming in from where and how many cars are coming to the site from the south that will be counted and also projections will be made of that number. So we can accommodate a project of flow of traffic from point south whether it be exit 19 or even beyond that so that will be part of the traffic analysis that is going to start Tuesday. But, I will respectfully submit that there are plans in place to deal with the bottleneck at exit 19, it requires some hard decisions to be sure but I think the cumulative effect of that of all the improvements in that plan is approximately a twenty percent reduction in volume for that intersection, one alone will produce a ten percent reduction. MEMBERS ROBERT PALING-But you did say that we have not done anything yet. SUPERVISOR FRED CHAMPAGNE-You know, excuse me, let me jump in here if! may and I understand what you are saying Jim, those are hard decisions you know it is property taking it is putting business out of business and I do not think I am really here tonight to listen an awful lot to the 9 and 254 intersection. I am here tonight to listen as to how to hell we are going to improve the situation given the situation that exists there today. I guess my question would be, John if everything fell in place, if the world kissed this whole concept project and we said to you and I do not mean to interfere here with the procedures and the processes of the Planning Board, but if we made a greased goal to get that concept that you have there and the County says yes take the property that you need to do a two laner parallel to Route 9 and you were able to get your traffic in the rear of Samoset and down through there what kind of timing would it take for Premier to get done what needs to get done? Is that a three year a five year or a five month project? MR. JOHN COLLINS-No, It is certainly not a five month project, I think what you have to look at is we are the second largest theme park operator in the World but everybody has got capital constraints, I mean, we do not live in as much as it may have seen otherwise the last couple of weeks, we do not have unlimited funds. But, what we have done is we have acquired the property necessary to address it and that is the key. We do not have to take property if we can put an exit ramp here and we can get the Federal Highway Administration to dedicate us and redo exit 18 or 20 south bound into a Great Escape Exit only or something like that coming from the north and bring them right through in a ride around and take them right off into our property. We now have the ability to do that. We have invested a lot of money and John Giroux and guy from the Adirondack Chronicle added it all up for you, we spent a lot of money to do that so that we now don't have to wait on anybody to address this. ATTORNEY JOHN LEMERY-Part of the study this summer the impact study of the traffic impact that the engineers are going to do is look at that question Fred and decide what is the quickest way to get people off in addition to that. Now, one of the things you mentioned today is a better management of getting people into the lot as quickly as you can. They need some time to do that, this did not surface until just recently so they need to deal with that and get them off. Immediately what is going on is an application that is being filed today to get on the July agenda for the Planning Board to get those three lots approved. There may be a day from time to time where it is a problem where they are into those lots but I do not know if there is any procedure under which the Planning Board gives us some sort of temporary right to park there until we get the application approved that's something we have not discussed with them. But, you know it, Kay's Motel is already commercial the buildings are coming down people parked cars there today for example they have parked cars on the Animal Land site presumably when Martha's transaction closes we will, if we can get cars back in there we will do that on a temporary basis until we can get this thing to the board, but we cannot get faster than you know the regulations allow us to move and the engineers have been hired and we will deal with it as fast as we can. We have just acquired the land and you have got to go out and get bids and all the rest of it to see what kind of costs are involved there. I do not think there is any question but that we are more than happy to share the results of that traffic study with the Town the Planning Board the Town Board whoever would like to see it. In fact John just pointed out it is being coordinated with the Transportation, Scott Sopczyk, it is being coordinated with them now in fact we had our Planning people we are going to sit down with them next week, our traffic consultants. CHAIRMAN CRAIG MacEWAN-John does Premier have a five or seven year master plan for the park? MR. JOHN COLLINS-This park is experienced huge growth the last three years through really two things, a great economy and very good marketing. I have a new director of marketing he came in after that very good marketing, but no, really there is a plan for the park to grow, what it is they do not know where this economy is going to be this is a market of one point two million people, ok, and its got limited capacity as far as local attendance and so it really depends. We have thirty two parks now, thirty two, thirty five parks that we are all at the table saying I want my piece of the pie. And they are going to go and say you know, you are going to get this or you are not going to get this year you cannot justify it. So, there is a plan to the extent that they would like to see it grow but what it is every year we have told you that before, I do not know. I can tell you now that there is probably going to be an attraction that we are going to come in at is it going to be a huge one probably not, we spent a lot of money on this and we do a pedestrian bridge that is two million dollars so the capital investment is kind of thin after that but, that is not to say that will not change. So, yea, there is a plan they want this park to prosper ok, do they have what they are going to do every year, no. CHAIRMAN CRAIG MacEWAN-Do you see selling more than fifty thousand season passes next year? Have you put internally a cap on how many you could possibly sell? MR. JOHN COLLINS-No. I mean that we will look at that I will see the results this year, we have, it was a great program but, can we do a million people on season passes alone? I mean that is a question, then you could put all your money in the bank before you even open up. So, that is kind of, right now it is a, we are very happy with what we have sold but we are living, we are going through this year to try to find out what effect that has on our attendance spread, and when the people come and right now those people are visiting very heavily but they also have had gorgeous weather on weekends. We will definitely, next year, look at it I mean we may adjust the price we may not, it is a tough call it is a marketing call and our director of marketing will have to look at that as an issue when he looks at his attendance spread. You have got a main gate how much does it impact? Was it acceptable, yes or no? Did it hurt your group sales? People come to company picnics did not have to buy a picnic or did not have to buy a ticket because they had a season pass. Did that hurt your over all attendance, yes or no? So, that is the thing you would look at in the fall and say in my marketing mix I want to cut it back, I want to grow it, it really depends on what your into, what you are trying to do for the next year which happens to be 2000. CHAIRMAN CRAIG MacEWAN-Can we address for just a couple of minutes some of the rumor mills that have been working over time here and maybe just touch on them? MR. JOHN COLLINS-Go ahead. CHAIRMAN CRAIG MacEWAN-Lets start with the rumor mill we hear of the parks future plan to possibly develop the other side of Route 9 with a Hotel, Motel complex? MR. JOHN COLLINS-We have two hotels now we are trying to get our handle on those. Weare resorts, I think that is something you have to look at for the future there has been no discussion of that at the present time that is a rumor. CHAIRMAN CRAIG MacEWAN-Are there any more land acquisitions in the planning? MR. JOHN COLLINS-No. We have spent enough money. Yes, and we are not buying the Country Club either. CHAIRMAN CRAIG MacEWAN-No, that was the last weeks rumor. MR. JOHN COLLINS-I do not mean to make light of this folks, I really don't, I have lived here for three years now and I have heard every rumor, we did not burn the Coachman, we didn't let the town burn the Coachman, ok, we reopened it we will run Martha's we are not going to tear down Martha's it is a fantastic establishment with a great tradition that is a huge opportunity to run that and Roger wanted to sell so we jumped on it. There is no change there the only problem that may happen there is staffing and I think any of you out here that run a business know what I am talking about. So, that is the only issue I had with Martha's, can I keep the people, can I keep them happy, can I keep them to stay. The same with the Coach house, how long it took to open was we had to go in and hire staff, so yea, that's just a couple of rumors I did not mean to jump ahead on you on rumor control but those are a few that I heard. John, said will the Coach house be opened year round, it will definitely be opened every day through the holiday season then we will look at that. You know it is a business decision it definitely will be open on weekends in the wintertime Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Monday and Tuesday it maybe closed on Monday we will have to see how it operates. We are new at that, that was another rumor, any other good rumors out there that I can answer? No we did not buy the Trading Post it is a good property they do a great job please patronize it. ATTORNEY JOHN LEMERY-The challenge for the company, is not, to once dealing with the traffic problem the challenges within the park, to vary the attractions within the park so that people are not waiting too long. So, that is where they see the challenge, within the park their own property the mix of the rides the mix of the attractions enough water attractions enough other rides to keep people dispersed in the park so that they do not have long lines. They do not see the next issue being moving the people into the parking lot and dealing with it they believe they have spent time and money now to deal with that and as Fred suggested over the next several months that will be addressed but the problem now is over the next period of time will be dispersing the patrons within the park so that they do not have lines. John mentioned to us earlier today one of their other parks where there were complaints by customers that there were long lines and let me tell you how he addressed it. MR. JOHN COLLINS-This also goes kind of back to the, do you have a five year plan. Our company is so expansive now and each of the parks present their own individual needs and each is run based on its own area. We do not have this cookie cutter approach and even though there are some Six Flags Parks that will have branded products each area presents its own problems and opportunities. But, Great Adventure if anyone has been here, down to New Jersey which I never have been to the park had a problem with lines and the company decided that they were going to address that by spending forty million dollars to put in more rides, not to draw more people but to cut down the lines. Was that in the five year plan, no, I guarantee it wasn't. Was that an immediate response to a problem, yes. They spent it, if you have gone down there I hope you will see the difference but they bought a lot of high capacity rides you take out low capacity rides and put in high capacity rides that are newer and you turn over people quicker. You cut your lines down. So, that is what John is referring to but that also goes back to this quote five year plan, I guarantee you that they did not plan to add forty million dollars worth of rides immediately this year, but that was a biggest concern of that market was I go to Great Adventure and I stand in line. And that is what they did to address it. I think I may have told you that story before. MEMBER CATHERINE LABOMBARD-John, I have a concern about the wastewater treatment we have not addressed that tonight, I know that the septic systems are really taking a. CHAIRMAN CRAIG MacEWAN-Nice and loud Cathy. MEMBER CATHERINE LABOMBARD-Ok, I have a problem with the wastewater treatment I know the septic system are taking a real beating and the rumor I have heard is that you are going to hook up to the sewer system? MR. JOHN COLLINS-No, but that's when we have talked with some of the people on the Planning Board and also with Chris Round that was one of the things that we talked about was ok, what's the future hold, what would we like to see, we would like to see the sewer line brought down so we can hook onto it. That is something that we would like to see happen. Is it going to happen there is more to that, than just us. But, what we have done we have spent annually a quarter million dollars upgrading our septic systems, a quarter million dollars. When we put in the Nightmare that was not one of the things that you guys asked us to do but we doubled the size of our septic system in Ghost Town because we knew there would be more people up there so we did that so we upgraded them and we put in a new restroom when we put in our catering area that was as Jim says definitely over sized but we are doing those things now. What we would like to see is eventually tie on and that is not a cheap proposition and getting that sewer line down here and then I think we can handle you know future growth from that. But our septic system is rated for well above the attendance that we have. CHAIRMAN CRAIG MacEWAN-Is there anything else that you gentlemen would like to ask? MR. JOHN COLLINS- I just have a personal comment for everybody in the room I appreciate you coming out and one of the things that I hoped, I have talked to a lot of you on the phone is that we listen sometimes there is not much there is nothing we can do about it but we will certainly empathize with your situation if there is any thing we can do about it we are going to do our danmedest to address it but we are a business and I think I told a gentlemen on the phone last two weeks ago, we have one hundred and twenty days that we operate and it is busy during those one hundred and twenty days we are a theme park we rely on traffic. We rely on being busy that is the nature of our beast we rely on people coming we invite them to come to our area. I passed around an invitation that I sent out to four hundred thousand households to come to Lake George, four hundred thousand households that I am promoting this region did not cost the County anything. I asked them to come to Lake George and in the immediate interim also said come to the Great Escape when you are here, but that is the type of things that we are doing. When I did not, actually I asked for the County to have their phone number on here but they chose for some reason not too, but the point is we are promoting the region and we understand we live in the region. I had a gentlemen say, but you do not live in Courthouse Estates you live over in off Corinth Road in Hudson Point, which I was surprised he knew that but he said he found out. So, anyway my point is we are part of the community we know you have concerns, we think we listen to them. We have meetings with the Planning Board every time we have a ride come in where you are entitled to come up and talk to us about it. You are entitled to get on the record and say, I think you need to address this or I think they need to look at this and we do. Last meeting we had a gentlemen who said we had a concert and he called and low and behold they turned it down. We, I just want to get across, we are a corporation granted, but we also are in the community we want to be a good corporate citizen we understand we have neighbors I have been invited to stand in your yards many a times and I will, but I understand you have concerns I just wanted to get that out. SUPERVISOR FRED CHAMPAGNE-John just to add on to that and I think the public should probably have a better understanding not only do you spend your promo dollars to attract people to come certainly to the area. The County spends upwards to nine hundred thousand dollars a year in promoting what you and I see every day as traffic that interferes with your movements and certainly does my movements. I have to say that this particular area I have been around here since 1955 this particular area is a tourist destination and until you have been on Route 1 going up the coast of Maine you really can then understand what traffic is truly all about. That is not to say that we speak lightly of some of the congestion and some of seriousness of the problem because today there was in my opinion a very definite safety problem coming off that Northway. So, it isn't something that we are going to turn our backs to, we are going to stay on top of it we are going to work with the Great Escape, certainly through the Planning Board and what other obligations we have as a Town Board to try to rectify the problem. I personally believe that, that concept that they have there will work. The timing is important to me I am sure as it is to you. There are some other issues that I am sure the Town Board will be looking at but, I just want to say thank you very much for coming and I certainly appreciate the exchange that we had and I think it was a good airing of the problems and hopefully we can find some solutions. So, with that it is back to you Craig. CHAIRMAN CRAIG MacEW AN-I guess I will thank everyone for coming as Fred said and on behalf of the Planning Board and the Town Board, thank you gentlemen for coming to shed some light on where we think the Great Escape going how we can work together to try to solve a lot of major problems we have. Thank you. Respectfully, Miss Darleen M. Dougher Town Clerk-Queensbury