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2003-01-13 SP SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING JANUARY 13TH, 2003 Mtg #3 Res. #63 7:00 P.M. BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT SUPERVISOR DENNIS BROWER COUNCILMAN ROGER BOOR COUNCILMAN THEODORE TURNER COUNCILMAN DANIEL STEC COUNCILMAN TIM BREWER TOWN OFFICIALS Mike Shaw, Deputy Superintendent of Wastewater Supervisor Brower called meeting to order.... 1.0 RESOLUTIONS None 2.0 DISCUSSIONS 2.1 WEST GLENS FALLS FORE COMPANY BUDGET CONCERNS MR. JOHN WELLS-Referred to letter received from Henry Hess referencing the Town Board's interest in adopting the budget the 27th and questioned the compensation of any members, the possibility of paying the treasurer? SUPERVISOR BROWER-We didn't agree to that, we kind offrowned on it. COUNCILMAN STEC-We frowned on it and said we would consider it after talking to the rest of the departments. SUPERVISOR BROWER-And we talked about possibly in the future establishing potentially a common type of accountant or someone that would work with all the fire companies. MR. WELLS-So, it's the board's decision that you're not compensating any fire company members in any department for services. COUNCILMAN BREWER-The one specific thing that they talked about was the treasurer. MR. WELLS-I know there's services that are being paid to other members of the department. COUNCILMAN BOOR-I don't believe they're supposed to be. COUNCILMAN BREWER-Well, we don't really know if there's supposed to be. COUNCILMAN STEC-We were talking about the treasurer, no treasurer should be paid. I mean, if there's a guy that snowplows or whatever, but I think what we were talking about was the treasurer position. MR. WELLS-And I'm not referring to snowplowing, I'm talking about others but I'm not going to go into it because I'm only addressing the treasurer's part and if that's your decision, that's fine. The second thing within the letter is the audit and I'm questioning, isn't that duplication? We submit an independent audit to the board every year and Henry's saying that we should expect a full audit by the town during the year 2003 and if that's the case, do we have to submit a budget to our CPA to do it twice? COUNCILMAN BOOR-I think what he's referring to is probably some of the things that you've eluded to but haven't gotten into. There's some things that have been brought to people's attention that possibly people are getting paid for services that they're not supposed to be. MR. WELLS-But shouldn't that be included in the regular audit? COUNCILMAN BOOR-It should be but apparently it's not in some cases and that's why I think we're going with an independent. MR. WELLS-We're just looking at it, we're going to have to compile this stuff cause it's more then just the financial records, it involves notes, minutes, meetings. I mean everything has got to be done twice and Steve Bethel is going to have our stuff, we're gathering now, for quite a few months. SUPERVISOR BROWER-But the whole idea of an audit John is so that we send another independent person, not your accountant but somebody else to review. MR. WELLS-Oh, I understand that, we're just looking at, we're required to do it every year and the town gets a copy of it, we're going to be doing it twice. COUNCILMAN BOOR-Ours might be different then yours. SUPERVISOR BROWER-It's going to be more in depth then a normal audit. MR. WELLS-The final thing is with the language of the contract. The last time we were here, no one had or knew what our contract said and I don't know if that's changed yet or not. SUPERVISOR BROWER-What's your specific problem with the contract, what page? MR. WELLS-The first one is page 4 and it references the spending of the funds.... The contention of several people is that we represent the Town of Queensbury when we march in the parades and they're asking that we can purchase them out of contract money. We've already bought a significant amount ourselves through fund raising so it's not like going out to buy fifty uniforms, it's for the one or two that get it now and they can only get them after being in the company for a year and they remain property of the company. COUNCILMAN BREWER-In other words, you've got guys that are in your company they don't have dress uniforms and you want to buy them for them? MR. WELLS-No, we're still purchasing, we've got the money for them, it's just the idea from some people is that we represent the town when we go to these parades and they're just asking if we can purchase some uniforms out of the town contract money. COUNCILMAN BREWER-Do you need uniforms now, for how many people? MR. WELLS-I don't know where we stand with uniforms, I don't know of anybody wanting for one right now. SUPERVISOR BROWER-But you're saying historically, you've paid for them out offundraising? MR. WELLS-Oh, yea. SUPERVISOR BROWER-Why wouldn't you continue with that? MR. WELLS-Well, we will, it's just, it was a question from some people that we represent the town, they're asking if we can spend it out of town money. The second one is the language referencing the purchase of telephones, does this include cell phones and if it does, can we exclude the word cell phones from that? We're not looking to purchase cell phones for every member of the company but with technology the way it is and advancing, there's many, many uses for cell phones in certain areas of the company that we feel more then justify some officers or offices having a cell phone paid for by the company... The next item I have is on page 5, it reflects the audit itself and what you're required to report to the town, halfway through paragraph A it says, and shall include statements of all revenues regardless of source and all expenditures regardless of purpose. The question I have, why if we go and spend or do fundraising, why do we have to report to the town that we're raising this money and we're spendig it because we're still a private corporation? SUPERVISOR BROWER-We want to know all revenues and all expenditures. MR. WELLS-But why? SUPERVISOR BROWER-So we know. COUNCILMAN BOOR-Cause we're giving you money. SUPERVISOR BROWER-We're funding the fire services and we'd like to know. MR. WELLS-So, what you're saying though is if a company goes out and busts their butt to raise money and you know what they're raising and we're spending it, and then you're going to then deduct from our operations budget cause we take the time to go out and fundraise. SUPERVISOR BROWER-We didn't say that. MR. WELLS-But what other purpose would there be for it? SUPERVISOR BROWER-So we have an accounting of MR. WELLS-Well, then what business of the Town Board to know that we're doing it cause we're still a private company? SUPERVISOR BROWER-We fund your general operations. MR WELLS-I understand that, but you're saying you're not going to use it to go against it, then why would there be a reason you'd have to know for? COUNCILMAN BOOR-Well, why would you not want us to know? MR. WELLS-Because we feel as an intrusion by the Town Board to try and run our company. COUNCILMAN BOOR-I don't think we're trying to run it, I think we're trying to find out what's appropriate. MR. WELLS-If we went out this year and raised a hundred thousand dollars in fund raising which isn't going to happen but if we did and we came in to you the next contract with the same three percent increase, you're going to look at that and say, well you made a hundred thousand dollars in fund raising, why do you need all this money? COUNCILMAN BOOR-I don't think that's true. MR. WELLS-I know it's true because it's happened in the past with our bingo which is one of the reasons we got rid of it.... COUNCILMAN BREWER-This was something added this year? MR. WELLS-Not this year but it's been within the last, I would say more then three or four years ago. SUPERVISOR BROWER-At least four years. COUNCILMAN STEC-Is this language in our current contract, or the one that just expired? So, that was the one we did three years ago, right Dennis? SUPERVISOR BROWER-Yea. COUNCILMAN STEC-I understand what you're saying and there's no guarantee that the next five Town Board Members might not feel this way but I don't think we've exercised this part of the contract ourselves, this board. MR. WELLS-No, but it's there. COUNCILMAN STEC-It's there and we could but we haven't. I understand what you're saying, it's a disincentive to raise money.... Just to clarify what Mr. Wells is referring to, it's page 5 in the contract where it states the following: such report shall verify the fire companies qualification under 501 C3 of the US Internal Revenue Codes and shall include, (and then skip the next line), specific schedules of expenditures of town funds, and you're recommending to delete "statements of all revenues regardless of source and all equipment regardless of purpose"? MR. WELLS-Yes. TOWN BOARD held further discussion, Councilman Stec recommended possibility of a matching incentive to fund raising funds for the fire companies... MR. WELLS-Page 7, we're going to ask again that the full amount of the contract is provided up front and not dispersed over time in three installments. The reasoning is, the interest can only go into a restricted tax raised fund, the fire fund, the town can't spend it anywhere except for fire services because that's the tax it was raised fOf.... We feel like we're being micromanaged by the town... COUNCILMAN BREWER-We need to talk about the roof, we've got to fix it... Are we going to make a decision on this language or not? COUNCILMAN STEC-Ifwe keep the language that we were just talking about, I think that we have to add something to put some sort of, we have to counteract the disincentive that language provides, somehow. COUNCILMAN BOOR-I'd be happy with that. SUPERVISOR BROWER-Maybe not know what the revenue is but know what all the expenditures were, that might be a compromise. TOWN BOARD continued discussions regarding language, no decision made... MR. WELLS-Page 8, the bottom paragraph, we had a problem with this before and it still reads gray to me and I'm just looking for an interpretation so we can change the language and it's not gray anymore. To me, it reads two different things. COUNCILMAN STEC-No debt or any of those other things with a value of fifty thousand or more. I read it as no debt but I don't know why it needs to be that way but that's how I read that but I can see what you're saying. I think that says that if you want to borrow money you have to get a resolution from the town. MR. WELLS-Regardless of the amount? COUNCILMAN STEC-Right, regardless of the amount. Or if you want to spend out of the operating funds that we give you, if you want to spend more then fifty thousand dollars, that's how I read that. MR. WELLS-To me this is gray, can we change that to reflect what the current Town Board wishes. SUPERVISOR BROWER-I think it is gray. MR. WELLS-I would say borrow or buy up to fifty thousand because fifty thousand, it's fire services isn't a lot of money. SUPERVISOR BROWER-I think the intent was that any time you borrow money you need a Town Board resolution. COUNCILMAN STEC-I think that they intended it to be, any debt. COUNCILMAN BOOR-Yes. MR. WELLS-Originally, this was a lower amount. COUNCILMAN BOOR-But being the devil's advocate here again, if you put a lower amount in there, I think the reason it says any is because you could go out and get about ten forty-nine thousand dollar loans and never have to get approval from the Town Board and I think that would be a problem. MR. WELLS-But it's also encumbrance upon us because if we go out to replace gear or buy air packs or air bottles or hose, we're going to have to get a note for that or a lease agreement with it, we're going to have to go into debt for it and it's going to require us to come up here and have a workshop and then a Town Board Meeting for a resolution and public hearing. It's very cumbersome upon the fire company to plan it's purchases around the meetings of the Town Board. BOB GILMAN-If it's in our budget line items to purchase, we don't have to come up and do a resolution. COUNCILMAN BOOR-Not to my understanding of it because it's already appropriated. MR. GILMAN-Oh, so you're saying any new purchases. COUNCILMAN BOOR-Yea, right. .... See, the way I understood it, anything at fifty thousand whether it's in the budget or not, we've got to come back up here. SUPERVISOR BROWER-I thought that was the case. I think that is the case, that was the intention of it. COUNCILMAN BREWER-If it's in their budget and it's under fifty thousand dollars, why would we? COUNCILMAN BOOR-First of all, you're not, if it's in the budget, you're not taking any debt. SUPERVISOR BROWER-But if you're taking on any debt. COUNCILMAN BOOR-Then we need to know about it. MR. WELLS-Well, that's not true, because we can lease it and go in debt for it, then fit within the budget schedule that we have. We did air packs or computers or gear whatever, we lease it. You can lease them out, payment of six, seven thousand or whatever a year, you go into debt for that. It's within the budget, it's a budgeted item, it's a line item, you're going into debt, it exceeds that amount or there is no amount cause this says any debt. SUPERVISOR BROWER-Okay, that's a good question. COUNCILMAN STEC-Speaking of hoses and air packs and what not, consolidating that purchase? MR. WELLS-That was brought up like seven or eight years ago, the proposal for it and it never went through. COUNCILMAN STEC-And do you think it's a good idea? MR. WELLS-I think it's a great idea for common items. COUNCILMAN STEC-So, speaking for West Glens Falls, you'd be in favor of it? MR. WELLS-Absolutely... So, do I expect an answer on any of this stuff prior to wanting me to sign it? SUPERVISOR BROWER-Yea, we'll give you an answer on the various points you brought up. MR. WELLS-Is there money there for a roof, can we expect to be there? COUNCILMAN BREWER-I think we've all agreed that we're willing to do it. MR. WELLS-Well, then can we have that language included in the contract? SUPERVISOR BROWER-But the idea of the contract though is to have the language fairly standardized with the five companies. MR. WELLS-I'm just asking for a one page addendum. COUNCILMAN BREWER-I think that's fair. SUPERVISOR BROWER-So, an addendum indicating Town Board recognizes the need, something of that nature. MR. WELLS-Recognizes that it needs funding... So, reference the other points, should I just expect a phone call and it will be the final decision or do we come back and negotiate? COUNCILMAN STEC-When we do decide, we'll let him know, I don't think we'll need to talk to him again...! don't think there's anything new to be said, we've just got to mull it over and decide. MR. GILMAN-Is it a two, three or four year contract? SUPERVISOR BROWER-Two year contract. Thank you for coming in tonight guys. 2.2 EASEMENT RELEASE - WALKER LANE - DAN VALENTE, JR. MR. DAN VALENTE, JR.-(Referred to map) This is the proposed subdivision for the front of Bay Road. The existing dirt road that runs out right now actually comes down in here. We had given easements along that dirt road to the town and to Baybridge, this parcel here, to the town and to Baybridge and also there's an easement up Bay Road which we are not requesting back, only this parcel and the easements along the existing dirt road which will in turn be moved... MR. MIKE SHAW, Deputy Superintendent of Wastewater-We're returning everything to him that we don't have any use for... COUNCILMAN BOOR-Are you going to hook up the sewer? MR. VALENTE, JR. -Yes. COUNCILMAN STEC- Then we're good to go there, Mike, you don't see any hitches with his ability to tie in peacefully with the sewer system? MR. SHAW, Deputy Superintendent of Wastewater-No. MR. VALENTE, JR.-We're designing this right now on worst case scenario. So, we don't know exactly what their heights are going to be and elevations when they bring their manhole up Walker Lane so we're proposing on this whole site to drain back to a pump station here and then we're going to pump back up into. COUNCILMAN BOOR-Alright, so nothing down here. MR. VALENTE, JR.-No, nothing. MR. SHAW, Deputy Superintendent of W astewater- It might be possible if you have the elevations... MR. VALENTE, JR. -Yes, I may be, I think it's feasible to actually gravity potentially all of these lots and depending on your elevation but we won't know that until they are down. COUNCILMAN BOOR-And this line is obviously big enough to handle that right? MR. SHAW, Deputy Superintendent of Wastewater-It is, yes. COUNCILMAN BOOR-Great. MR. SHAW, Deputy Superintendent of Wastewater-All you'll have to do, when that time comes is do a district extension which basically there's a format, it shouldn't be a really big deal because you're the only owner and the only person in that extension. MR. VALENTE, JR.-Right. COUNCILMAN BOOR-How big are these? MR. VALENTE, JR. -The lots, some are over an acre, some are just under an acre, there's fifteen lots. COUNCILMAN BOOR-So, you're just asking to get the easements back then. MR. VALENTE, JR.-Yes, that's it. TOWN BOARD held brief discussion, agreed to have Town Counsel prepare resolution for next Regular Town Board Meeting... 2.2 NORTH QUEENSBURY FIRE CO. - BUDGET REVIEW MR. DAN DAVIES-Our biggest concern from our fire department, it seemed to us, the more you asked for, and then you guys made a concession to cut on some of them. I mean, if we had gone in for me, we probably would have gotten more and we didn't want to do that. I mean, we have a concern of keeping taxes down in the town and I think the biggest concern is when you compare the numbers, our numbers, our operation budget versus the other department's operation budgets that there's a pretty big difference and our biggest concern is that, and maybe this is something that needs to come under control here down the road, maybe not in this contract but it's something that we all have to be aware of so that we stop this spiraling budget increase. Our budget, our operation budget is a hundred and ten thousand dollars, the proposed one that you guys have granted us and our debt service is nearly the highest in the town, or one of the highest because it's a short term debt service... Most of the other departments with he exception of Central, their debt services are lower and their budgets are substantially higher then ours. We're not here asking for more money because that's not what we want. We have nice equipment, the best, I mean really good stuff and we just think that you guys may want to take a closer look at some of this stuff and see why some of the other department's operating budgets are a hundred thousand dollars more. Same size building, same amount of members, we have more trucks then they do, they do a few more runs then us but that doesn't matter, that's fuel costs. Fixed cost all the same, what's going on? And a hundred thousand dollars is a lot of money. MR. FRED MCKINNEY-Most of our residents, their fire tax bills alone run between fifty and a hundred dollars a month or six to a thousand dollars, twelve hundred dollars a year, just for fire taxes and most of them are not year round residents... They're concerned about reassessments coming in and the big concern is, and when you tell them that their money is coming into a central pot and then they say, we're funding that thing that we just drove past coming down to Hanneford? Our money is going there? And they are totally aghast about this. They can't believe that such things are going on. COUNCILMAN BREWER-But on the same hand, let's remember that people from West Glens Falls when they took a ride up to the lake four or five years ago were thinking to themselves, Jesus, we're buying this building? MR. DAVIES-They aren't though. MR. FRED MCKINNEY-They aren't. COUNCILMAN BREWER-They didn't pay for that building? MR. MCKINNEY-No. MR. DAVIES-The tax dollars, we did the numbers. MR. MCKINNEY-And that's why we're coming here. COUNCILMAN BOOR-They're subsidizing everybody else. SUPERVISOR BROWER-Yea, they're the highest assessed properties in the town. COUNCILMAN BOOR-Their assessments are right to the roof and then they're the most fiscally responsible so it's a double whammy. MR. DAVIES-Well, that's it, we didn't want to even come in, I mean when we came back here this last time, we've had pretty nice stuff. I mean, we have a beautiful station, beautiful equipment, we had a long term plan and we were almost forced to come in with an increased budget because the other departments, I mean, the monies are just flowing south and we're doing our taxpayer up there an injustice if we're not giving them that extra piece that we maybe not necessarily need but... MR. MCKINNEY-One of the things we've talked about, I've urged it, you really should consider fire districts because with fire districts, each department would be responsible for their own indebtedness, but they would live fiscally within their means. And we're not here to say this department or that department but there's five departments in the town, all five should live within their means. Central is getting totally blasted with what they're generating in taxes and so much of that, their money is going to subsidize three other departments. But you take North Queensbury and Central, they are probably raising, what, fifty percent of the total taxes or more, and it's not fair. It's not the fire department it's not fair to, but it's the individual taxpayer and the only way that you can resolve this, is go to a fire district and then each department will set it's, there's several different ways you can do it but you can set your own tax base for what you need and in our case, would be refunding money to our axpayers. SUPERVISOR BROWER-Then you'd have fire commissioners, right? MR. DAVIES-It would take it out of your hands, you wouldn't have to do it, you'd have elected officials and but, even that may not be the answer.... We just think you guys need to take a closer look at things... SUPERVISOR BROWER-Let me ask you gentlemen something, you are historically known to be able to raise a lot in fund raising through deaths, gifts to the companies, more then other companies and you report that to us, did you ever have a problem with reporting to the town your fund raising efforts? MR. DAVIES-No. COUNCILMAN STEC- The language in the contract, are you comfortable with it? SUPERVISOR BROWER-Tell us what you received in donations and what you're spending. MR. DA VIES-I think you need it. MR. MCKINNEY-But the thing is with that, is somebody endows money from our department through, you know, they figure here's some extra funding that maybe that fire department could use for something special that they wouldn't normally get through taxes but that shouldn't be used against us. That shouldn't be deleted from our taxable fund anymore then if a department has the energy and the time and the drive to run bingo. That is surplus and personally, myself I think if that department works that hard that money should be able to be used up and beyond. MR. DAVIES-Yea but it should be accountable still. MR. MCKINNEy-It should be accounted for. MR. DAVIES-It's sad that west doesn't do bingo anymore because it was a huge fund raiser, it brought a lot of dollars and saved the taxpayers of Queensbury thousands and thousands of dollars but they've lost that incentive to do it. MR. MCKINNEY-But you're ultimately our leaders, all five of you and we have to be accountable to you and we wouldn't think of not trying to be, I mean, there's no need for being devious. MR. DAVIES-And that's the only way that you're going to get control of some of this. I mean, and I don't know how you're going to do it but you're going to have to get audits and put them in categories and say let's put line by item and why is there such discrepancies from one department to another. That's the only way you're going to be able to determine where the money is going. MR. MCKINNEY-But a place to start would be to ask Helen to break down the fire dollars coming from each district and she should be able to do it with the computerization programs now and then take a look. And if this one's got a hundred and thirty-six thousand coming from and that one's got five hundred, well then, you better take a look. Why should the one with only a hundred and thirty-six thousand coming from it, end up with three hundred and fifty? They should live within their means. MR. DAVIES-Well, I don't think we mind giving some money but when the floodgates open, that's the problem that we have. MR. PETER FREDERICK-Thirty thousand dollar difference is one thing, when you get hundred thousand, that's another. MR. DAVIES-Or two hundred thousand leaving your district, and you say why? Because the other departments aren't being fiscally responsible, you're taxpayers are paying that price, they come to you and say, what are you guys doing to us, when you're not the one causing the problem. That's really the biggest thing I think and times are going to get tough... The fire tax is a fairly good chunk of your tax bill right now. You hold the departments accountable, I think we could keep these numbers in control a little bit more and if you compare the numbers, upstate New York, including Colonie, this is one of the wealthiest departments.. . MR. MCKINNEY-We just wanted to share with you our concerns. SUPERVISOR BROWER-Thank you for coming. TOWN BOARD held further discussion regarding the fire companies, fire districts and assessed values throughout town... no decision made, agreed to discuss further and scheduled a workshop session for Tuesday, the 21st at seven o'clock. SUPERVISOR BROWER referred to the town report and reviewed with the board the bids received for the printing and the bids received for the analysis for writing the town report... I'll make copies of these for you, have them in your mailboxes tomorrow and have Bill Lavery come to the next meeting so he can clarify any questions or concerns... RESOLUTION TO ADJOURN MEETING RESOLUTION NO.: 63, 2003 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. Roger Boor WHO MOVED FOR IT'S ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mr. Daniel Stec RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby adjourns from their Special Town Board Meeting. Duly adopted this 13th day of January, 2003, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Brower, Mr. Boor, Mr. Turner, Mr. Stec, Mr. Brewer NOES: None ABSENT: None No further action taken. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED, DARLEEN M. DOUGHER TOWN CLERK TOWN OF QUEENSBURY