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1991-12-18 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING/PLANNING BOARD MEETING DECEMBER 18, 1991 4:00 p.m. MTG. #65 TOWN BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT Supervisor Stephen Borgos Councilman Marilyn Potenza Councilman Betty Monahan Queensbury Planning Board Jim Martin Peter Cartier Carol Pulver Tim Brewer Lee York -Queensbury Planner-present Mr. Diehl and Attorney Mathias-present Supervisor Borgos Opened the Town Board Meeting Peter Cartier Opened the Planning Board Meeting Supervisor Borgos-Asked that Mr. Eli Rudnick speak to the Board Mr. Eli Rudnick-Noted that he was informed that Price Chopper intends to put another traffic light on Glen Street, apparently DOT has approved this... Mrs. York-Noted that she has been in contact with the Warren Co. Planning Office and the Warren County Safety Bureau and DOT, light has not been approved because there are right of way issues that they do not want to get involved in... Mr. Rudnick-Requested that the Town stay on top ofthis....please look at this... Mrs. York-What has been suggested is right turn only signs... Mr. Rudnick-Noted that they have access from Foster Avenue, noted there is a light there.... Mr. Peter Cartier- turned the meeting over to Supervisor Borgos Supervisor Borgos-We had a request two days ago, to discuss the issue of the Diehl Rezoning and Development Project which all of us have been deeply involved in for it seems like 12 or 14 years or more. As you recall we went through the rezoning and we went through a long discussion and back and forth with the Commissioner on who had the lead agency status we got through that, we got through SEQRA and it was brought to our attention then, (we will have a quorum in a minute) it was brought to our attention that the Planning Board I do not believe has denied maybe we will find out, denied the proposed development by this particular developer, but has requested an alternative plan. That came back and has lead to the discussion, the Town Board has approved a rezoning based on a plan we looked at on a clustering design on a minimal impact, to the environment on the SEQRA statement and review based on the minimal impact relatively few roads and most of the land left undisturbed. What does this mean and indeed does the Planning Board have the right to tell the developer they cannot develop according to the plan originally proposed. I think that is the basis of the issue, I think the developer probably feels pressure saying the Town Board has approved one thing the Planning Board wants something else, how can I please both groups and if I can please both groups or do we have to please both groups? I do not know if the developer should necessarily be in that position, it was recommended at the meeting and I forgot who suggested that maybe we sit down as the Planning Board, the Town Board with the Planning Board to talk about this and give the developer some guidance. Before we go any further let me call this meeting officially to order as far as the Town Board is concerned, I have got Mrs. Potenza here now, Mrs. Monahan and myself we are legal we have a joint meeting now. Ok, so that is where we are at. Maybe the developer can speak more or Betty might want to say something, but I think that is pretty much it... Mr. Wilson Mathias-Council for Mr. Diehl-I think that there are a couple of things that we were concerned about and after our meeting after the sketch plan, original sketch plan was offered, the, what we did was went to Morris Engineering and said ok the direction is, to submit an alternate plan with single family detached houses using a cluster concept and so we did that. (maps shown) The cross hatch area just means that this is totally undisturbed not even available for septic or anything else it is 100' buffer. The isle are again green space open area that type of thing. Councilman Monahan-But could conceivably have septic... Mr. Mathias-Could conceivably have septic, again we are at the preliminary stage, that's the sketch plan stage we are just seeing what is what. But, anyway that is, actually we started with a couple of other designs and I said that's not going to do it, but this, I think this, it utilizes, certainly utilizes, the cluster concept and would be a basis on which to start. But, when I had this plan done, I said gee before I go further I am going to sit down and talk with Lee York, because just to get her impression. I would, again she is here and can speak for herself, I think Lee's reaction was if this were, if we did not have any history on this project and this was zoned SR20 and somebody came in with single family residential cluster this would not be a bad starting point for it. It's a heck of a lot different though than what we presented to the Town Board in terms of getting the rezoning, again, and all of this is based on the premise that this is affordable housing. There is clearly covenants and restrictions that whatever they do they fix pretty concretely a mortgage level and an income level for people to be able to borrow that fits into the affordable guidelines. The, after I did that with Lee she spoke with Steve and Betty. Lee York-First they talked with Paul and then...and then we all talked and then we got the minutes and I guess the issue is, you know, Mr. Diehl has gone in with a concept and that is ok, and the Planning Board has the right to change that concept and that is correct too, Mr. Diehl does not want to get caught in developing a concept that is not going to be, is going to be a problem for one group or the other here. That is his concern. Mr. Mathias-Let me ...one other fact too that I think is very important. The morning after the Planning Board Meeting where you recommended single family detached houses, Mr. Diehl got a number of phone calls of people extremely interested in terms of developing this property along that concept. That is something that the Planning Board certainly has said and so now to complicate factors, it, you know, that is why my client said to me shut up when you said do it single family houses and I start to argue. So, that the difficulty seems to me at this point is how to resolve all of this. Mrs. York-My concern, with this whole thing is the SEQRA what we are doing with the SEQRA, that is why I talked with Paul about that to see where it stood, what we had to do. Was another SEQRA then required, if the board preferred this or where we stood legally on it, did we have to then look at that simply as a SEQRA on the differences the changes from the first to the second or was it significant enough to change for it to be back on the drawing board and someway, if this concept was used was the rezoning invalidated? So, that is where the discussion...would the rezoning be invalidated because you were looking at a different length of roadway you know with the SEQRA that was done then invalid? That is where we started I guess Paul can explain what he explained to me? Mr. James Martin-When Paul and I last talked was right after that meeting and there was a discussion that, maybe, there maybe the necessity to do the SEQRA even if the project didn't change, because the rezoning and maybe I am sure Mr. Mathias would have a view on this, the SEQRA review on the rezoning is one thing, then SEQRA review at any project whether it was one that originally presented would still require a SEQRA review in and of itself from the Planning Board as a subdivision or site plan review, or subdivision because now you are saying the rezoning is a conceptual type of thing, but we are going to allow a certain number of units under the zoning. But, now we have the actual configuration determined and that in itself requires a SEQRA review. So, no matter whether it is a change in the concept or not, we were having the discussion that in any event that it would require a separate SEQRA review. Mrs.York- I, well he is not here to speak. Supervisor Borgos-I think you gave us an answer the other day. Probably better let him come back ...take a break for a minute... Mr. Mathias-Even again, from our stand point here you know there is clearly, there is clearly a financial impetus to make some changes. One of the things that actually Lee said is that, the other concept really is a good one and it makes sense and you are just in a situation where people don't have the vision to see it. The problem is that unfortunately you go to the bank to borrow a half a million bucks to put in an infrastructure or what ever there are not visionaries there, and we know that, and here is the thing we are beginning to move from the concept stage into hey, maybe this spring we actually will start putting it into the ground, to do that obviously some infusion of cash is going to be required that is nothing magical you have seen that with any kind of project that comes in front of you at least if its over 50 units. So, that, I think that we are certainly contemplating that a change of some kind inbetween what was initially presented and this persia would be something that we hope, I mean, clearly I think we would like to go this this and refine it and do whatever you want. I think there is certainly feeling by this.. Mr. Martin-In your subsequent view of this and what contacts you have had this seems to be now a preferred alternative? Mr. Diehl-As I stated at that meeting when you brought that point up, I have no objections because the, we are trying to stay with the affordable housing all the way that's really what we are trying to accomplish here and I have no objection when you brought that up. There was the other problem of whether or not the approval on that is in violation of something, I am just sitting here and lets resolve it and lets go. Councilman Potenza-What was it about the old concept, the four plex? Mr. Mathias- Well the four plexes, here, I got..I did not bring the color one because that was too dramatic, I said what am I trying to prove here? Even this Betty shows clearly... Councilman Potenza-When this was initially presented to the Board it was my opinion that filled the needs of what was required in the present Master Plan that offered the cluster effect it offered an open area, green space effect that the citizens of this Town literally screaming for when we originally wrote the Master Plan. It offered 100 affordable units a different idea from what has been initially introduced into this Town and that is why I supported that. I think you are really comparing apples and oranges when I'm looking at this concept over the other one and I am having a difficult time understanding why there is such a variance in both of these presentations? Why is it possible that the Planning Board has that option to go to such extremes on the presentation?..You are going from a 25,20 building four plex to a 100 single family residences. Mr. Mathias-90 Councilman Potenza-All right 90 single, whatever. I am looking at the green space, is gone the clustering concept a full clustering concept is gone, I just think, it is very hard for me to understand why the Planning Board has the option to ask for such an extreme variation in a presentation. Peter Cartier-Maybe I can answer part of that, I am looking through your resolution here and all it says, when this thing first came up one of the questions I had what is the Planning Board locked into in terms of this rezoning because of the because of the way it was rezoned? The only thing that I am seeing in here is that no more than 100 residential units are going to be built and that they will be clustered. Councilman Potenza-But the decision that we voted on was from the presentation of this presentation, it wasn't presented to us a pie in the sky concept we did a very thorough study as to what this developer wanted to do on this land. This was what we looked at and this is what we ruled on and this is what we voted on. We did not vote on an overall concept, there was some very distinct requirements that the Town Board put on this developer for this concept. Mr. Cartier-But that doesn't show in the resolution. Councilman Monahan-I have read a little law and a little is a bad thing to read. But often when Planning and Zoning questions come up they go back to the intent of the Town Board and had you people read our discussion and have you read our SEQRA because had you done either one of those you would find this does not follow the intent. Mr. Cartier-The answer to your question is no, we do not have the minutes of that meeting. Councilman Monahan-I have a hard problem. Mr. Cartier-How do we arrange getting those? Councilman Monahan-I would like to finish what I am saying. We are talking about clustering, the Town of Queensbury Code, the purpose of such authorization shall be to enable and encourage collectability of design and development of land in such a manner as to promote the most appropriate use of land to facilitate the adequate and economical provision of streets and utilities and to preserve the natural and scenic quality of open land. We took this very much to heart when we looked at this plan and rezoned. You have what I have a quasi attempt at clustering that is actually a farce? This does not accomplish what this says. This plan and any variation that you make to it takes about one third of the space for roads, used for many hundreds of years down the road. One third less streets and infrastructure the Town of Queensbury has to maintain. Even if this qualifies for affordable housing this certainly can be much more economical with common walls. I remember making the comment at the time when we did this, it was entirely different from the Adams Rich Affordable Housing, it could reach a new group, you are reaching here practically the same type of people that Adams and Rich are reaching. You are reaching here maybe retired people who cannot maintain the outside of a structure, you are reaching maybe, single family parents who do not have the time to do that or the ability you are reaching newly formed families who may be holding down two or three jobs and do not have a lot of spare time. On top of that I walked a great deal of this fifty acres, there are a great many species on this land that should be maintained, prime area, the next morning after that rezoning Mr. Mathias called me and asked we what plants, because of my conversation I had seen in there because they were going out, send a botanist out to save as many of those that they could by the sitting of this building. As far as I am concerned this plan violates the spirit and intention of that rezoning, and I am appalled. Mr. Cartier-Ok, your point isn't very valid though, this is the first time we have seen this, so don't shoot us down for something... Councilman Potenza-But, didn't you originally come back and ask for single family units? Mr. Cartier-Sure Councilman Potenza-Ok Mr. Cartier-In a cluster design. Councilman Monahan-I don't even know why, and I said to Mr. Wilson and Mr. Diehl, and Mr. Diehl I apologize to Mr. Diehl for being caught in the middle of this, I could maybe, I do not want to say this, it shouldn't be I at all? The Town could maybe live with the concept of a mixed community in here where you had many four plexes and some single family homes not using much more space than what you have here so you could achieve the objective of the ...infrastructure, maximum green area and keep this as a community not like another Levit Town or smaller lots like a checker board. Mr. Cartier-You and I are agreeing on this plan here, I would not go along with that either, that was not my general conception of what we were going to see as a single family cluster at all. Councilman Monahan-What did you people really think you could ...in here with that many lots for single families? ... Mrs. Carol Pulver-Let me say one thing, I think in my mind, and Wilson knows I did not vote on this project at all, but as I sat there and listened to the conversation, a single family detached clustered design I see basically the design you have before you with single family houses clustered in those areas and maybe it only comes out to be fifty homes, I do not think the board was thinking that it would be a hundred single family and again as I say, that looks to be, that, that could be my development down there... Councilman Monahan-That is what I am saying, we don't, I don't mean we don't need another Adams Rich but the reason for this rezoning was to reach one more group that was having a hard time having, several groups having a hard time having housing that they could afford, not the same people who would be going into Inspiration Park. Mr. Cartier-Was this ever presented anywhere as senior housing potential, of senior housing, this is the first time I have heard of that? Councilman Potenza-No, I do not think it was presented as senior housing, I think Mrs. Monahanjust said that it's possible that seniors and retired people may live in something like this. Councilman Monahan-A whole variety of people not just seniors a whole different variety of people that this could reach. . .. . and because of no grounds to be maintained etc. Mr. Martin-I think there is a couple of things to be pointed out here, I think we are seeing the limitation of a rezoning and that is why the Planning Board recommended against the rezoning if you remember is because these are, you are trying to place mechanism within it that really have no power. We did this, with this understanding, but he is not bound by that understanding, you can try and word that and button it down and tie it down... Councilman Potenza-But we have a client that is willing to go with this it is the Planning Board that is asking for a change, the client was the one that came before us with this concept. Mr. Martin-At least in my mind was like you have across the street here, you have this concept across the street here it has been sitting here for how long? Councilman Potenza-I do not know, I don't know Jim.... Mr. Martin-The gentleman received how many calls on as soon as the single family article was put in the paper. Councilman Monahan- Economics is not your prerogative Mr. Martin-That's right it's not. Councilman Monahan-neither is the Town Boards or a member of the Planning Board that is one thing... Mr. Martin-I agree with that. Councilman Monahan-You just said you were doing it because of that, I am sorry but that is not something that you can get into. Mr. Martin-I agree with that but the fact..what's good for the community. Councilman Monahan-...it doesn't matter, if there are twenty gas stations out there and a guy comes and legally applies for a twenty first one we have to give it to him whether it is good for him... Mr. Martin-Have you heard from the neighbors across the street, the neighbors across the street have seen this and they are not very happy. Councilman Monahan-They did not appear with that at the public hearing? To get back to the units and you said you envisioned like fifty, if! remember in that rezoning... Mrs. Pulver-No, I didn't I was just saying that in my mind when the board was discussing the clustering single family detached I could see little shapes like this with single family homes and that there would not be probably a one hundred there just would not be space for a hundred after having a lot of green space and other areas around I do not know how many they were going to come up with. It would be somewhat less than one hundred probably, sitting in these areas. Mr. Cartier-I think that is sort of what I had envisioned... Mr. Martin-That is what I had too. Mr. Cartier-Mini neighbors... Mr. Mathias-Right, but envision having fifty, that is what it is zoned for. It is SRI acre.... Mr. Martin-We had envisioned a happy medium so to speak between the fifty and the actually zoning allowability of a hundred units. ...and you only know what your figures were... Mr. Wilson-Maybe that's... Mr. Cartier-Wilson just mentioned a number of75 Mr. Diehl-Actually it called...according to the zoning and then we backed off that... Mr. Wilson-I am not, I did not come in front of the Town Board and said we have..Jots... Mr. Martin-There comes a point at which you have infrastructure to pay for and so on. Councilman Potenza-What was it about this particular presentation that you wanted changed on it, does the fact that it was a four plex that you did not want four plexes on that land is that what you wanted? Did you see... Mr. Martin-I just don't see where zero lot line, is appropriate in this part of the community where you just buy the floor plan for the character of the area you are going to be at odds and you are going to ... Councilman Potenza-But it is such a blended area over there Jim, you have every concept of home ownership in that area. Councilman Monahan-See that is what is happening to Queensbury you have such pure areas coming into this town now that I am sorry but you have got ghetto against ghetto and neighbor against neighbor, it is not in my back yard because I am keeping my back yard pure. It is not helping this Town any and we are finding that with the Wilton homes. It is a perfect example of what's developing in this town and your concept is going to increase the feeling and further divide this community against itself. Mr. Martin-When I think of it in the concept of affordable housing what comes into my mind the complete package, it was only mentioned maybe three or, or three out of the four, you are talking about the elderly, young families who are three or four jobs. Councilman Potenza-Hey, I am talking about anybody. Mr. Martin-Those are the people who are being mentioned... Councilman Monahan-Well, because they come to the top of my head first... Mr. Martin-But there is another aspect to that and it is what the State does to their affordable housing program as Carol knows, people buy homes are bound to live in them for fifteen years, so therefore the design has to be ... Councilman Potenza-You are looking for government subsidies... Mr. Martin-I am not talking about subsidies I am talking about the concept of affordable housing and what you try to do with your resolution, you tried to promote that. Councilman Monahan-No, you are wrong, New York State and I part on many, many things, what I am saying is, what do you want Queensbury to be. Do you want it to be the Westchester of Northern New York or do you want Queensbury to be the kind of a place where every person has got the right to have a home. Mr. Martin-All I am saying is an affordable housing community to be a community people can take pride in and they will stay, they will buy that home and stay there over the years, because studies and surveys have shown zero lot lines, four plexes are transitional housing in and out. Councilman Monahan-What is wrong with that? That happens all over town, I know people that have bought in Cottage Hill to start with moved up into the next development as their income increases and moved up and some finally ended up in Bedford Close, Jim, what is wrong with that, it is the American way. Mr. Mathias-I do not want to get in here, is the debate between the two boards because that militates the whole affordable housing thing. Mr. Martin-I do not want to do that. Mr. Mathias-I know that, ... Councilman Monahan-...I am looking for an objective to accomplish an affordable and not using it as New York State, I am saying what this. . can put into a mortgage payment what that retired person what this person just got injured in an industrial accident got to move out of a higher priced development because he cannot afford his mortgages and he wants to find someplace to live. We have got to meet these needs by many ways, some of them by mobile homes. Mr. Martin-Then why would the gentleman who had single family detached out there, the phone started to ring? Councilman Monahan-Why is it that Victoria Grant sold out just about as fast as they could build? Mr. Martin-That's duplexes it is not quadroplexes. Councilman Monahan-You do not know who has tried this, who has tried this in this community? Mr. Martin-I have seen it other places. Councilman Monahan-I do not care what you have seen in other places that means that you are looking at this with a closed mind. Councilman Potenza-It is conceptual give it to me that perhaps a family of parents and two sisters and a brother may buy a four plex so that each of the families would have their own home but would come back to the nest after the children are grown and educated. They could have a family come back living in their own homes within the same building and come back. I can see that happening, it is happening in my family now, it is, it would be to my benefit, well you are talking four units in one building. Councilman Monahan-It might be Amish three stage homes. Mr. Mathias-What I am suggesting is this and here is why I felt it was essential to get the Board's together, because no matter what we do we are in effect dealing with the two of you, ultimately. That is my impression, maybe I am wrong. Again the whole idea of getting involved in litigation and anything else over this stuff as to who is right or wrong just destroys the whole object of making it affordable. You might as well toss that out the window, so what I was hoping to accomplish again, by doing this with the two boards is to hopefully effect some type perhaps compromise and one that I would suggest in terms of laying out a combination of these two things where you would have some, a percentage of attached units and a percentage of detached units again in a pod type thing and to try that. That is different than what they saw and I do not want to, and I do not think that they can be designed exactly so that a pod of single family detached units would fit in to something like that. But, I think that it could be done somewhat more like that than here. Mr. Cartier-That sounds interesting to me to pick up on what Lynn said, I do not mind the kids living near by but not that close. Councilman Potenza-Not with me, I want at least a wall between us. Mr. Cartier-You can accomplish that, now, you have two options, the plex system where you have a really close family, fine, and single family cluster. Mrs. York-Are the issues basically, affordability and maintenance of green space? Councilman Monahan- And roads and infrastructure. Councilman Potenza-And I know you hate this word affordable but that basically is what it boils down to. It boils down to it when you can limit the infrastructure situation and comply with wishes of this community and that is to keep as much green space as possible and it doesn't mean green space between single family houses Councilman Monahan-On smaller checkerboard lots. When we say affordable I want to take this one step further and I am not just talking about affordable housing, but also Planning Seminars that I have gone to talk about affordability for the community and that is that we do not get a lot of infrastructure un-necessary in roads and infrastructure to maintain we have to think of our budgets in years to come. Mr. Cartier-Suppose we try this, suppose in effect we are going to throw both of these out and to go with what Wilson is talking about. They are going to come up with another design and incorporates the best of both. One of the things it does is bring back some of that green space and reduce some of that infrastructure. Attorney Dusek-The one thing that, that does do though that Lee was just getting into the issues that were raised and I just want to make sure we do not miss something here, you mentioned affordability and those other criteria and I think you are correct that was the options that the Board was looking at. Jim has also mentioned some things that are worthy of consideration and that is compatibility with that area of the community and having that issue address in terms of fitting in with that area. I think that the solution is being discussed here it may not be the ideal solution in terms of everybody has envisioned but it certainly goes a long ways if you put a blend of the two in it addresses that issues the Town Board in terms of getting these types of structures in there so that you do develop affordable housing on the other hand it also goes to address one of the concerns that Jim has raised in terms of compatibility because I think if you blend the two it seems to me that you are certainly making sure that they are compatible. Councilman Potenza-There certainly isn't a more compatible area in this town than the area that this is proposed in, absolutely not. Whatever you wanted to put there I think would be compatible because... Supervisor Borgos-You have got mobile homes in the back, you got every kind... Attorney Dusek-I think if you mix the houses though, it seems to me that you would only go to increase that compatibility. Councilman Monahan-I think it might improve the whole thing. Councilman Potenza-I agree. Councilman Monahan-And also maybe what you might be building, which I hope...you may be building a small community, which would be very good... Councilman Potenza-My only concern with this. Mr. Martin-..Glens Falls Queensbury, Thornberry Drive and...have you seen it down there, single family homes that have just been built in the last couple of years, can't be more than 1200 sq. feet, 1100 square feet... Councilman Potenza-They are terrific Jim and we have those in our community too, we do not have four plexes and I think this community needs a blend of everything. Councilman Monahan-We have got to be more imaginative and more visionary and try new things, we do not need to be like Northern New Jersey which has been chopped up so people were selling off their side lawns for another house, we need to start using some vision here and some imagination and try some new things. Mrs. Carol Pulver-A thought that I had from the last Planning Board Meeting one of the concerns that we raised about the four plexes was that they do tend to become rental units if they cannot sell them, the question is on Planning Board approval if it was four plexes or six plexes or whatever it is could the Planning Board stipulate that they must be owner occupied? Could that be a condition of the approval? Councilman Potenza-I would not want that. Councilman Monahan-..you are cutting out people's options, what do you care? Mrs. Pulver-I am just asking Betty, I don't care, in fact I like your idea of mixed housing in that area, and I tell you why, because it does set a precedent and it does say to everybody else ok, guess what you can have a quadroplex in your back yard and your property value is not going to go down and you can have very nice neighbors and everybody can get along just fine, so I like mixed neighborhoods. Councilman Potenza-I would be opposed to putting a limitation as to whether they could be rental, I own a piece of property over on Dixon Heights, I bought it for my parents they are not ready to move into this area yet, I waited until the market was right and the price was right and the interest rate was right and interest rate was right and I purchased it and I am now renting it until my parents are ready to move in. I don't see a problem with that, I think that is the American way and I do not consider myself any worse a home owner because I don't live in that unit. I think that is wrong to put that kind of restriction on both on the developer and on the person who wishes to purchase it. Councilman Monahan-Not only that on the people who need to live there. We have needs in this community that are not being met. Supervisor Borgos-Let me go back to what we were talking about before when Paul was out of the room, the fact that the SEQRA has been done on this project in your opinion how much amendment if any could be made with this project without creating a request a requirement for a new SEQRA or Environmental Impact Statement. Attorney Dusek-We have a rezoning resolution that gives us the parameters, we know what that is, if this project is revised it would be the Planning Boards discretion to determine the extent to which it would have to be readdressed. I guess the answer is how substantial is the change? If you went from this to this that is a pretty big change in my estimation and it opens the door probably to really getting right back into almost everything on the SEQRA Review. Mr. Martin-When we were talking the night of the meeting that this was presented, that even if this was presented verbatim as was the concept there still might be a change for a SEQRA in that event. Attorney Dusek-If you find something that was not addressed in any fashion but I think that this was pretty well gone over at the time, you reviewed it you raised a lot of issues the Board considered alot of issues even the septic systems I recall in the resolution was addressed in terms of how that would be proceeded. From reviewing it, it is my opinion and this is just a guess, we are trying to say nothing will ever come up it is conceivable that something could come up that wasn't addressed but I would, my guess is that it would probably be unlikely. Unless you did come up with something that has not been addressed or discussed then you could not go back through the SEQRA process on that particular, but if you changed it then obviously you are opening the door. Mr. Mathias-Here is my other concern on what we hoped to accomplish by this and I do not expect anybody to give me guarantees, because I do not even know if! have got a ... is a sense that if there, that if we do some modification of this plan and provide from, provide some detached units assuming that the Town Board is happy with that, again, lets just go along with those assumptions, I need to have a sense, we have to work with you as a Planning Board and if there are people there that say ho-ho boy now you are going to get it, you want to look at an EIS and do all of that, again it militates against the affordability aspect and not that you should not do an environmental review just because someone says affordable housing but it makes us make a decision that says forget about being creative we will give you what... Mr. Cartier-It is a catch twenty two situation, because we cannot decide if we have got to go back through the SEQRA process until we have something in front of us to look at to make a decision on. Councilman Monahan-Have you seen our SEQRA report and the things... Mr. Cartier-I haven't done that... Mr. Mathias- Well, as part of my submission I gave you 14 copies of the whole thing which included the EAF Long Form that we did that they did the Town Board plus the... Attorney Dusek-I do not know if the Planning Board Members here would disagree with this but, my feeling from the Planning Board is that they are not going to in some fashion, if you are concerned that they are going in some fashion use a process for a means other than what it is intended...the Planning Board from my experience will take a look at the project and they, first of all legally they have to come up with a basis or a reasoning and they, the one thing that they have done consistently is that they will check with the Attorney and the Planner and they will make their own determinations but they will be reasoned determinations but they know this they are not going to abuse the process I think all of you guys would agree with that, they have been doing these things enough and I do not know of an instances where they have done that. Councilman Potenza-I would just like to understand how the discussion came that this client felt he had to go back and get one hundred single units on a piece of property that was zoned four plexes with 90 units, how did that happen. Mr. Martin-We didn't say no this is no good we want 100 units on here that is it, the reason why part of the code that we sited when we did it is that you see, these are both ends of spectrum here and hopefully you come in the middle and that is what it is supposed to do and.. Councilman Potenza-What is the job of this Planning Board, what is the job of it, my feeling is that the Planning Board reviews and recommends a project they do not change it to a degree that this project has been changed, I do not understand that. The function of the Planning Board is what? Mr. Cartier-Is to look at a project see how it fits into the Master Plan and if it doesn't make recommendations as to how it can be revised,... we do not just rubber stamp projects. Councilman Potenza-How well I know that. Attorney Dusek-Just so that we are clear on this, they do have under the cluster provisions the authority to ask for what they asked for there is no question about that. There is a reason for that and the reason is to allow them to explore other ways of ... the structure. Now, I think what you are hearing from them is that this was not ... Councilman Potenza-I am sorry, but evidently this man got the idea that this Planning Board wanted a hundred single units affordable units. Mr. Cartier-Correct me if I am wrong if I were in their shoes and heard that I would come in with as many units as I can ... Mr. Mathias-I guess we got a hundred and that is what we are doing. Mr. Diehl-That was the first question that was asked when brought back... Councilman Potenza-That is what I am saying, except this is not. Mr. Cartier-That is not a decision that the Planning Board made you have got to come in with 100... Mr. Mathias-We could have come in with 50 and you would have been real happy. Councilman Monahan-They were originally were zoned for 46 units so they certainly are not going to come back in with a plan for 50 or so....what did you think was going to show up here? Mr. Cartier- A clustered single family... Councilman Monahan-But you knew it was going to be close to a 100.. Mr. Cartier-You have got to understand something we are talking the conceptual level here, this Planning Board... Councilman Monahan-I realize that. Mr. Cartier-for this plan, this is not our design this is the applicants design we have only seen this for the last thirty minutes... Councilman Monahan-When you asked this gentleman to come in with a design for single family homes... Councilman Potenza-Zoned in that area, what did you expect from them? Councilman Monahan-Zoned with their new zoning what did you think you were going to see... Mr. Cartier-A cluster design with single family homes. Councilman Monahan-How did you think he was going to get a cluster design... Mr. Cartier-I do not know until we see it. Councilman Monahan-Mr. Diehl, how much of this, they did not know until they, see it cost you? Mr. Cartier-Come on now that is not fair. Councilman Monahan-I you need to know the results of ...to a degree, what did it cost you? I know what you said the other day what it cost you. I will leave that to you to divulge. Mr. Cartier-You are rapping us for a plan that yes we asked for but this is the first time we have seen it. Mr. Martin-Sometimes I feel very frustrated, there is no appreciation for Councilman Monahan-All right, but Jim when you ask for something you have to also think of the logical conclusion of what you are asking for. Mr. Cartier-Please do not forget that we never do that. Councilman Monahan-My asking my husband well we couldn't afford milk but could I have a fur coat and a diamond ring? Mrs. York-Maybe, Wilson the way to go here is to look at the limits of clearing and try and develop within the limits of clearing that are already available to you, do you think that is possible? Councilman Monahan-Lee I am not sure I understand what you mean are you talking about looking at this plan where they have cleared and see what you can do in there? Mrs. Y ork-A certain percentage of green space being maintained which seems to be everybodies concern if you want to develop a mixed community within the parameters.. Councilman Monahan-And the infrastructure is very important too. Mrs. York-And then see if you want. Mr. Diehl-Can we get some unity in the fact we would go half and half Mrs. York-I don't think you can go, saying we will give you 50 detached and 50 ...because... Councilman Monahan-green space and the infrastructure, that would be your big question... Mrs. Pulver-I think you go to the applicant, if he can stay within the zoning he can come up with as many units he wants he can come up to a hundred units and that is it. Councilman Potenza-And he did. Mr. Mathias-That is a lot of lots. Mr. Diehl-lam just trying to get this job moving and get it zoned because the longer it lasts the more money, how can it be affordable it just costs money, money, money. Councilman Monahan-When our own thing says about clustering, which this kind of thing does not... Mrs. York-But you know Betty what may be you should have talked about was amounts of green space you wanted left in any development and then that would have given everybody the criteria in which to work. Councilman Monahan-If everybody looked at our discussion, these were the kinds of things we discussed and our discussion should go along with the Planning Board so they know what our objective was when we rezoned. We were not just rezoning for density we were rezoning for less infrastructure more green space etc. it may not show up....that comes from that Dept. there. Mr. Cartier-One of the things that I have learned in working in government... Mr. Martin-...in the context of the rezoning how much you can govern. Councilman Monahan-But, also as I said legal cases I have read when they get in a fight over rezoning they go right back to the intent...interviewing the people who worked on it... Mr. Martin-There are limits on the context of the rezoning mechanism what you can govern and what you cannot govern, I would assume. Attorney Dusek-The real irony of this thing that if I recall during the rezoning that the Board made comments to the effect that they wanted to leave a lot of things to the discretion of the Plannning Board. Councilman Monahan-But within the context of our ...and less infrastructure. Attorney Dusek-I think what happened here Councilman Monahan-We tried not to tie your hands but.. Mr. Cartier-I am hearing that you want to tie us to this? Councilman Monahan-I would not tie you to that precisely but we want to tie you not making any more infrastructure in this town as necessary and like if I could go up and down in commercial areas and if I had my way, in lets and out lets we would be coming together and have one coming out at a light, you know. The same way with this I think when we look at development, do we want Queensbury to turn into Long Island or do we want people to think of a rural area when they drive through. Mr. Martin-When I think of Long Island, I think more of this than I do of that... Councilman Monahan-Oh, Jim, my god Mr. Martin-The...is filled with quadroplexes and ... Councilman Monahan-But they do not leave that kind of green around them. Mr. Mathias-Here is the catch for us, we have got a time table that we have to meet and it happens to be December 26th we have got to give you a bunch of stuff if we want to get on for January. What I am trying to get a sense of is that if we submit a plan that has a mixture of units of the four plexes or single family residences and again I think I got a good sense in terms of aspect of clearing Mrs. Y ork- What percentage ofland is left natural at this point do you know? Mr. Mathias-A high percentage... Councilman Monahan-85% or something Mr. Mathias-No, wasn't 85 it was 60... Mrs. Y ork-60 ok. Mr. Cartier-I hear where you are going..J hear where you are going and I want you to understand when I suggested that I was speaking for me alone I wasn't speaking for the Planning Board in terms ofthis...that is an idea I would like to look at. Mr. Mathias-What I want to make sure is that if we submit a design that shows that, that I am not back with the Town Board saying, and I understand what happens on January 1, with the Town Board saying, but anyway someone saying hey they violated what we did lets go out and stop them. I do not want that to happen..J got to please you. Councilman Potenza-I think the question is directed as to whether he can come and put the package together with a blend of both four plexes and single units and present it by the 26th to get on the calendar by January is that the question. Mr. Mathias-The question is if! do that and we make all the engineers do overtime does the Town Board ... Mr. Martin-..J will say right now to me personally in spite of the pressure or philosophical disagreements or what have you I would like to see a more, more of a bent toward a single family detached. That is just the way it is. Mr. Cartier-Does that mean a mix Jim? Mr. Martin-I will accept a mix, me personally, do not take that as the whole board that is just the way I was looking at it. Mr. Cartier-The higher number of single families the less unhappy you will be. Mr. Martin-Right. Councilman Monahan-May I remind everybody as Board members of both Boards to look at this objectively what was good for the community not what we necessarily prefer. That should be the objective what is good for the Town of Queensbury that is good for the occupants, what the Town of Queensbury can afford in the Town and what meets the needs of the people within the Town, income levels, all physical conditions etc. Mr. Cartier-That is a mixed fixed what you just described. Councilman Monahan-I don't know, but I am not on the Planning Board... Mr. Diehl-Do you want us to go to the engineer and start drawing up something now? Mrs. Pulver-May I make a suggestion, how many are here...fouf...to go back to the engineer and have another drawing done and submit it and not have anyone like it, as much as the Board does not let you do planning there are times when I think they should be very specific as to what they want to see to help the applicant out. Mr. Diehl-I think after what we heard there at the meeting the last time we did not have the same thoughts as what was offered and that was what we felt that it was going to be I do not know how we could have drawn it but, lets be more specific at this time with what we come back with because I... Mr. Martin-It's nothing...specific number of units, you have limitations at your end as to what is feasible. Councilman Monahan-And I think also, what fits into the objective of leaving as much green space as little infrastructure and also perhaps as much of a range of housing costs within this community as possible. Can these units be in differential range of 15 or 20 thousand dollars and still come in the affordable housing criteria. Mr. Martin-I would give a hard look too, if I were you with a phase concept, I am sure you are doing that anyhow...then take that down to a more detailed level and say in that first phase do I want to include a mix do I want to go just a couple of quodroplexes at first just offer single family at first and get my feet off the ground, whatever will get your feet off the ground would be what your interests would be. Mr. Cartier-It opens up another possibility, let me just toss this out on the table, I haven't thought about it, ...do this mix in the first phase the way Jim is talking about and find out for example that the single family units are going like that and the quads are sitting there unoccupied then they want to give you some direction as to what you want to do in subsequent phases. Mr. Mathias-We know Peter that there are 25 qualified buyers in terms of income levels that aren't going to be able to get the Adams and Rich houses in terms...they got too many people that qualify so we say boy, there is going to be 25 right there, pretty close there is the potential...subsidy and that type of thing it is going to have to be a little different thing. Mr. Brewer-There is a difference between what Adams and Rich is doing and this though. Councilman Monahan-You have to admit this is almost like Adams and Rich. I mean I think the question Tim and Carol would you be in favor of the developer coming in with a mix, I am trying to save the developer a little, how much detail do you need to see the first time you look at a mixed proposition so he is not spending ungodly engineer fees and maybe not be near what you want to look at. Mr. Mathias-You would have to change the whole regs for that. Mr. Martin-If you look at some of the goals for the next year, it is relaxing some of the sketch plans review requirements, so you do not have to come in with all the engineering for something you would have to toss out the whole thing here. Mrs. Y ork- What was done last night, when I said to the developer since you are looking at different concepts...come up with a different scenarios and come in and talk about it and we call it a work shop. I know the engineers do not like to hear this but keep it as simple as possible...(tape turned) Mr. Mathias-You have a nothing and then you have everything, and there is really no transition, preliminary, the difference between preliminary and final we show you the fire district and the school district lines. We probably could have done that in preliminary. Attorney Dusek-The only comment I would make on that though part ofwhats happened is case law and the law suits that have built up around this whole thing, preliminary has become, you got to really make sure you have done everything in preliminary because if you try to pull it in final then the developer takes the Town to Court and says well you did not raise it in preliminary...maybe there is a way to lighten the sketch plan...... Mr. Cartier-This Board has said it is willing to make workshops this Board has never turned down ... Councilman Monahan-But I think the developers maybe the word is not out to them.. Mr. Martin-Some of the property boundaries are somewhat to scale... Mrs. Pulver-When they have been coming into the Planning Dept. we ... Mrs. York-Once we have the topography Mr. Mathias-We to have the Topo's... Mrs. York-Once they got that...they can sit down with our ...system and whip them offlike banana peals... Mr. Cartier-Can I offer a housekeeping detail go back to the kind of thing, some of the things you were talking about when you do a resolution involving rezoning don't just send us the resolution send us copies of the minutes, that is what the Planning Board does with the Town Board when we make a recommendation we are always sure that we will include the minutes. Councilman Monahan-Lee I will throw that right on your shoulders. Mrs. Y ork-Darleen I will throw that on your shoulders Mr. Cartier-The 26th meeting I assume refers to a Town Board Meeting is that correct. Mr. Mathias-No, I just meant that the 26th would be the filing dead line to get something... Councilman Monahan-Can you guys, you are in a legal meeting of your own right now, can you extend, Lee listen to what I am saying in case you object, can that dead line for them to file be extended to get on January's so in the mean time you have time to do a workshop with them to find out which one of these workshop plans you would like. Mrs. Y ork- There is not really time to do that Betty... Councilman Monahan-No, I meant after December 26th before the time of the January meeting. Mrs. York-You will not be in town. Mr. Cartier-That is right. Mrs. Y ork- There is just... Councilman Potenza-For their benefit perhaps, knowing now what they have known at the 11th hour. Mrs. York-Well come in and submit and... Councilman Monahan-But they want to sit down and do a workshop with these overlays... Mr. Mathias-I think we have gotten a much better idea in terms of, we have had the advantage of having a kind of a real Mr. Cartier-workshop Mr. Mathias- Yea, right now, I think can, we have a, I got a sense of what to make the engineers do in terms of working something that uses a mix and within the parameters of what you want. I do not know if we are going to well make you all happy that is the catch. Mrs. Pulver-How big are those lots? Do you know the dimensions? Mr. Mathias-I think, well they are bigger than 10,000 sq. ft. ....They are about a quarter acre. Mr. Mathias-Probably 15 I think. Supervisor Borgos-I thought they were 20,000 sq. ft. lots? Mr. Mathias-No Councilman Monahan-Some of them were undersized, I know you mentioned that the other day. Mr. Martin- 100x150 so you are looking at a third of an acre. Mrs. Pulver-...ifyou are doing a mix, single family detached ...the property that they own does not have to be 100x200 whatever... Mr. Mathias-We are going to tell them that they are going to have real small and probably have to go to get a varIance... Mrs. Pulver-But not if you are in a cluster concept. Mr. Mathias-As I understand how they do things here they make you do that. Mr. Cartier-Wait a minute, if you are clustering? Mr. Mathias-The cluster thing it does not matter how much frontage you have, ...somebody made Adams Rich go that route. Councilman Potenza-That is right they had to go for a variance. Mrs. Pulver-But that is because the Town Board stipulated that they all have 80' width...but the Town Board stipulation was 80' width ....so that is why they had to go for a variance. But if the Town Board had not said that then they would have been ok... the Town Board had said that all those lots would be 80' wide for Adams Rich and when the final drawing was done because of the curb there was a couple of pie shape lots that were less than 80' and that is why they went for the variance on those lots. Mr. Mathias-Because we do not have that constraint. Mrs. Pulver-You do not have that stipulation. Supervisor Borgos-We got the zoning regulation minimum footage what is that... Mrs. Pulver-Side and front that is all. Supervisor Borgos- What is the minimum width. I would guess that is probably a hundred. Mrs. Pulver-I think it would be 20' from each side line and ... Supervisor Borgos-Betty has it right there, probably 100' Councilman Monahan-What zone is this now, I forgot. Supervisor Borgos-SR20 Shouldn't the lots then be 20,000 sq.ft. Mr. Mathias-When you cluster you can bring it down to 10,000. Supervisor Borgos- Y ou are right. Councilman Monahan-Front and Rear, the front is 30 the rear is 20 Mrs. Pulver-How about clustering? Supervisor Borgos-And width? Councilman Monahan-Does clustering come in that same part or have I got to go to another... Mr. Cartier-A different section of the book. Councilman Monahan-The side doesn't have anything, lets see what is this, some of the side yards shall equal 30' or more with a 10' minimum. Mr. Cartier-There is another whole set of regs in there on clustering. Mr. Martin-I think clustering exempts it. Supervisor Borgos-It would great if it does. Mr. Martin-I am pretty sure that it does. Mr. Mathias-Well, it doesn't make sense if it doesn't. Mr. Martin-That is one of the basic concepts. Supervisor Borgos-After we are done with the topic I would like to hold the Town Board here for just on minute. Mr. Cartier-Are you done with us? Wilson do you need any more from the Planning Board side of this? I guess we are adjourned. 5: 16 P.M. Supervisor Borgos- Thank you all very much for agreeing to this. Mr. Diehl-I appreciate the...concerns here and I thank you. Supervisor Borgos- Thank you folks and enjoy your Holidays. Discussion: Town Board we have a little unusual circumstance to discuss with you...noted that the DCO tore his boots in the performance of his duties, requested reimbursement...Councilman Monahan-My concern is the precedent it establishes...Attorney Dusek-Noted it was a policy call...Board agreed to replace boots...$35.00 Attorney Dusek recommended a letter of explanation be filed with the voucher... On motion the meeting was adjourned. Respectfully, Miss Darleen M. Dougher Town Clerk-Queensbury