Loading...
1993-03-08 TOWN BOARD MEETING MARCH 8, 1993 7:00 P.M. MTG#20 RES 170-180 BH 8-10 BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT MICHEL BRANDT -SUPERVISOR BETTY MONAHAN-COUNCILMAN SUSAN GOETZ-COUNCILMAN NICK CAIMANO-COUNCILMAN PLINEY TUCKER-COUNCILMAN TOWN ATTORNEY PAUL DUSEK TOWN OFFICIALS Dave Hatin, Mike Shaw, Jim Martin, Jim Coughlin, Ralph VanDusen PRESS: G.F. Post Star PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE LED BY COUNCILMAN TUCKER Supervisor Brandt called meeting to order ... the first item on our agenda is a discussion about landfill closure. Dick Morse is here from Morse Engineering to fill us in and bring us up to date. DISCUSSION - LANDFILL CLOSURE - DICK MORSE (Mr. Morse submitted to the Town Board a hand-out on the proposed detail that is currently being considered, to submit to DEC) Mr. Dick Morse-Referred to first page, showing the typical section on a four to ten percent slope on top and then the transition out of that into the side edge. This is the new EP A cap design that would be imposed after the October 9th deadline, for not taking any more ash and that was eluded to in the conference that was held today, that Sue and Betty attended. At a conference that Paul Dusek and I attended about a month ago, ENCON suggested the use of paper mill sludge on the 40 mil membrane in this area as a potential for people that we're still going to take material after October 9th. In looking at that paper mill sludge as a benefit to us up here, it currently has BUD's which are a Beneficial Use Determinations, and we can generally make revenues on that. So that would defray some of the costs associated with this. We are not imposing it on the side slopes because of the constructability issues associated with paper mill sludge. If you go to the next page, it briefly discuss the actual cap design, which is cap on top of the landfill on the flatter slope. We'll have our twelve inches of gravel, which is our gas venting layer. In here we're talking about either granular material or ROLITE, and that is the process we have been talking about for a number of months, the incinerator ash. Weare going to, at this point be petitioning DEC to allow us to continue to investigate the use of ROLITE and if it proves out useful, to employ ROLITE in the top of the landfill. Councilman Monahan-Which layer? Mr. Morse-That's the actual bottom layer. If we can use the ROLITE in the gas vent and all the literature that has been produced independently from DEC, has suggested that it is an appropriate usage and re-usage of this material. IfDEC will allow us, then this is where we would employ it. The reason we're only talking about in this area is because now we're going to a more or less, double cap design. Because in this area we'll be putting a minimum of eighteen inches of paper mill sludge which has the high clay content which also acts in concert with the next piece which is the 40 mil geomembrane. One seals on top of the other and that makes what's known as a composite. When we're talking about double composite liners, this is what they're referring to, a synthetic material on top of a natural material and one welds to the other. So, if there's a breach or a leak in one, the chances of that breach or leak being right under the failure in one, is not likely to be under the failure in the other. From there we go up to the twenty-four inches of barrier protection and then we have top soil and seeding on top of that. If you go back to page one, you'll notice on the side slopes that we have tapered, right at the transition where we go from the flatter area to the steeper side, we make a transition and basically eliminate the paper mill sludge waste underneath the 40 milliner, but the 40 mil membrane continues on down the side of the slope and is deadened down at the bottom. Councilman Caimano-It can't sustain down the embankment? Mr. Morse-Number one, it's not called for in the EP A spec's. You can eliminate one or the other. The problem I think we'll face with the sludge that we finally end up getting or the mixture of blends that we finally get, is that the constructability on those slopes will be too difficult to really retain it. Councilman Monahan-This typical that we're looking at here, this is typical for all the slopes that are going to be on the landfill, just not that very bad slope that's toward Mud Pond way? Mr. Morse-That is correct. Any slope over ten percent will get this Granular gravel gas vent, sandwiched between two geotechnic fabrics and then a membrane, twenty-four inches of barrier protection which is just any generic fill. Then will go to the six inches of top soil which will be seeded and turf will be established on that. I direct you to the next two pages which summarize. The first one that I believe you would have in your packet is a summation of the various volumes, areas in volumes that are going to be going into the landfill. The first goes through the total area and we come down to total cap area, forty point five acres. The next number is, the upper cap and that's referring to the basically flat area, the ten percent or less area, which would be the required area for the ROLITE product. We're looking and we've backed into a number of about forty tons, which is approximately one year's production of ROLITE. One years production of ash equals one year's production of ROLITE. And we've got a top soil number, barrier protection, ROLITE layer where that's not in tons but in cubic yards and then eighteen inches of sludge. The last paper that you have is some generic costs on these and I think this is important for you to take a look at. The 40 mil cap has a number associated with just a little over one million dollars. Six inches of topsoil equates to about a half a million, seeding, seventy thousand, drainage, a hundred thousand. Geotechnic fabrics, are a hundred and forty-five and a hundred and fifty-eight respectfully. We're going to have to put a heavier one underneath the sludge. Councilman Monahan-Is that installed or just material? Mr. Morse-No, these are all budget installed prices. The gas vent layer, and this is granular material, this is, if we do not get ROLITE approved, is seven hundred and eighty-four thousand gas vents. Those are the physical pipes that penetrate the liner and alleviate any gas pressure that builds up and we've got forty of those, you need one per acre, that's a hundred and twenty thousand. And then barrier protection which is that twenty-four inches of material over the whole membrane, that is seven hundred and eighty thousand. That gives you a total capital budget of three million, seven hundred thousand. If we use the clay, we can look at an eighteen inch lift at around two hundred thousand dollars, a lift in revenue. I think we would petition for perhaps thirty-six inches of that, which would give us approximately four hundred thousand dollars. Then the remaining cost that we could, so that netted out of the previous total would be three million, three hundred thousand or three million four hundred thousand. We would look at any revenues from ROLITE, any revenues from ROLITE would go up and if we put the full one year's production of ROLITE, you would subtract out from the seven hundred and eighty thousand in the gas vent material. We would take about a third of that out of there, about two hundred and fifty to three hundred thousand out of that because we would be replacing that with ROLITE. But the ROLITE would be a net savings and I'm not sure, that's a negotiated price what we can get for the ROLITE. Supervisor Brandt -You came down to three million, three hundred and seventy thousand dollars total cost and if we distribute Town water over to the area that's potentially effected by the landfill, it's another, about eight hundred thousand dollars cost which would be four million, about two hundred thousand. Off the top of my head, I think ROUTE, one year's production netted about a million five for the community and I'm going by memory plus it's another two hundred and fifty thousand from replacement of the purchase of the gas venting material. So it's a million seven, that's very, very significant. We've got a reserve, a million three, that means we still are short two million nine. For the Board's information, the Town of Islip and the Town of Huntington are meeting and they've asked us to join them on Wednesday. So we are going to go down and join them so that we can coordinate a BUD Application by the three Towns to DEC in hopes that they take it seriously and we're going to be working with the State University of New York people that have been working on this project so that all this information can come before DEC and hopefully get evaluated. Councilman Caimano-Questioned who will be going down? Supervisor Brandt-Paul Dusek and I. Mr. Morse-I called DEC, I thought you might want to know where we stood with them, we're about ready to submit formal plans and the accompanying documents to them probably by the end of this, first part of next week. I asked Dave Mt. Pleasant, that we would put a cell line across this and still break out cell one which is the slope that runs down to Mud Pond and while we were maybe negotiating on other issues, if the process would not be stymied by us petitioning for the use of ROUTE, because I think we've got a basic green light on C&D and the sludge, the paper mill waste. Councilman Caimano- That's what this letter indicates. Mr. Morse-Yes, Dave Mt. Pleasant said that, he would independently evaluate cell one and get that approval out if we did want to bid that this Spring and he felt that there would be no problems with him turning it around in that sort of period. So we could bid it that Spring, if that is the desire of the Board to proceed in that sort of thing. So if we are still maybe hung up on the ROUTE, the ROUTE is not in cell one. We're not asking for it to be because it's on the slope. So we can still continue with our closure plans, get approval for construction and move right in to cell one. Supervisor Brandt-Another part of the income stream is that we have five, six months, depending on when we get all our approvals to bring in more material where we may get some more income from paper mill sludge and C&D waste while we're still operating up until the end of September. So that adds to the income stream, potentially adds to it, that's not known at this point but we're moving on another front to get changes in our contracts and changes in our permits. Attorney Dusek-Basically the plan at this point would be to try to bring everything together before the end of March so that you have at least a good solid six months of paper mill and C&D sludge coming into the landfill for use, as Dick will best indicate in terms of fills or whatever else that is needed there. The real catch of all the plan is, as of October or September, whenever it is when the landfill finally closes down, the question becomes, can the landfill continue to take the paper sludge and if it ultimately becomes acceptable to ROUTE, as part of the closure process? Now, I've spoken with an attorney for DEC, DEC is currently reviewing that internally. Part of the problem is, the reason why they don't know the answer is because they're preparing right now to become approved under the federal program so that they can in turn, their regulations are essentially the same as the federal regulations which in turn will let them run the show so to speak. Although initially they feel that there isn't a real problem with paper sludge, they don't know the answer as far as the use. So, that's an if out there that unfortunately we won't have an answer initially, it's going to take some time. And that's the only question I guess I would have for Dick is, what if something goes wrong and they don't allow us to use the paper sludge under the federal regs, are you going to be able to provide for a contingency plan here to close up the landfill? Mr. Morse-Yes, if we did not get permission to use, number one, ROUTE we would continue that with just the gravels and that's a budget number that you'll see on there, that's the seven hundred and eighty thousand, it's already there. Or if we were not able to get the paper mill sludge in the cap, which is of course what we're looking at doing with the eighteen inch lift, two of them, we would just delete it from that lift. I mean the design stands on it's own from that, that's a current approvable design under three sixty. So we've lost no ground but until we make that petition and asked them specifically for that, and I tried it out to several members ofDEC that were at this conference today and they seemed, at first glance they thought it was an excellent idea to go with. Attorney Dusek-I think we'll probably be able to do this but just so you know it's isn't in black and white yet, as far as that one point is concern. Mr. Morse-But I think what it keeps it going is, that we can proceed with cell one, because there's nothing unusual with cell one and it blends right into the design. Councilman Tucker-The Town has hauled alot of topsoil up there, are we going to be able to use any of that? I know that it grows grass like crazy, it's growing it down there at pond. Mr. Morse-Well, if it grows grass like crazy, where we're at today, we can ask for a variance. If it doesn't meet the topsoil spec, we can petition DEC for a variance for relief under the new mandated relief incentives that are out there, to use that. Councilman Monahan-Plus we have all that compost pile up there that you might mix into it to get it up to the grade too. Councilman Caimano-Ifthey told you the same thing today, they told us at the Association of Towns, they are down grading what they consider, as long as it grows anything. Mr. Morse-That's correct. Councilman Caimano-In fact, some Towns have used sludge from the sewage treatment plants. Mr. Morse-That's correct. Yes, we can blend anything and at sixteen dollars a cubic yard installed, it's alot of money, it's a big ticket item here. If we have something that we can use and it will sustain vegetative growth and that's the requirement, that's the only requirement, then we can do that. Councilman Monahan-If we have that material, there will still be labor, what do you think that would cut that by? Could you give us a guess or wouldn't you want to at this time? Mr. Morse-I really want to go look at it, the last time I saw it, it seemed like there was alot of debris in it too. Councilman Monahan-There is alot of debris in that from Hovey Pond. The leaf pile is fairly clean, the compost pile. This twelve inch ROUTE layer that you've got in yards down below, I'm assuming that's part of the forty thousand ton? Mr. Morse-Yes. Councilman Monahan-The geomembrane which is a big item, did you cost account that versus the clay and decide that this was most cost effective to use this or were there other reasons that you went with the geomembrane? Mr. Morse-Well, when we're looking at this design, where we need to composite, the one on top of the paper mill sludge, the geomembrane is the only one that works. So, that was one of the reasons we went in there because we need this, they call it a composite, it's one on top of another. You can't put a clay on top of a clay, they don't allow that, they need an artificial over a natural. This is the new EP A design. Councilman Monahan-With what we've got in front of us, does any of this require any of these variances that we heard about? Mr. Morse-What you see in front of you for the side slope, for cell one, does not require any variances. The composite liner in my opinion, would not require any variance because we're actually giving them more then they want. We're taking it because it's to our advantage because we're going to get revenue out of the paper mill sludge in the cap after we can't take waste any longer in our landfill. The ROUTE requires relief, I'm not sure that's a variance but maybe that's how they will treat it or a modification. Supervisor Brandt -Or a BUD I think is what they're really saying. Mr. Morse-Okay if we get a BUD on it, but that requires relief. But the system, if you excluded the ROUTE, this would be an approvable system right now, in my opinion. Councilman Monahan-Now, did you hear anything there today about the variances that would make you look at this and think of some way we could cut costs by applying for any variances, of what came up today? Mr. Morse-I haven't given it, because we got out of that meeting at four o'clock and I really haven't, I've got a couple of these burning. I do think, we want to look at the material that's supporting growth out there, render an opinion. If that is topsoil, see how much we've got, see what needs to be done to it. I don't know what needs to be done to it. Then render an opinion to you that, yes we can do this for five dollars a yard instead of sixteen and it's beneficial. That would require a variance if it doesn't already meet topsoil specs, and I don't know that. Councilman Monahan-But the method of procedure would be to submit this as is and then if you see any reason to apply for variance that saves us money, then you apply for those after you submit this, correct? Mr. Morse-That would be my understanding at this point, that we can obtain relief no matter where we are in the process or at what phase we are in it. That's what I got out of that meeting today. I would, it's up to the Board but I would like to get this up to DEC as soon as possible. Councilman Monahan-Do we qualify for any of that funding? Mr. Morse-They had the five hierarchies of funding, we're around three or four and I don't see any reason why not to apply for funding. Supervisor Brandt-Right, question is, will there be funds there? Councilman Caimano-I don't know what they indicated today but they seemed to indicated down in New York that even if it wasn't available now, to apply because they were ninety-nine percent certain that more funding was coming. Mr. Morse-Yes. Two things were happening, there was a big over shoot on what people have estimated funds or what projects were going to cost and everyone was conservative up front, projects coming in cheaper, therefore in the initial hundred million, there's a roll over in that and then they're refunding it back into this through the Environmental Bond Fund or something like that. Councilman Monahan-The other thing, in these figures that you gave us here, is there anything in there for engineering supervisory fees because I know it has to be stamped all the way along? Mr. Morse-No, but we've already gone under contract for that. Councilman Monahan-Did that take that right through the process? Mr. Morse-That gave us, what thirty-two weeks or something. Councilman Caimano- What do you need from us now? Supervisor Brandt-Yes, we need to make application and this whole thing is not cast in stone. Truthfully, if it comes down to the bottom line and we don't get ROLITE and we have problems with some of these other things, I mean you can be looking at bankruptcy here for the Town. So we may get part way down the road and as some of these answers come in, we may have to change direction again. You know, maybe we have to stay open. I don't know but we're certainly not going to bankrupt the Town, we've got to do something other than that. So there's alot of negotiation to be done with DEC at every level and we've got to find an answer to it. The only thing we can do is process the paper work according to the rules and regulations and keep going. Do we need a resolution to continue and make application? Attorney Dusek-I don't think you need one because you've already authorized the retaining of the services of Morse Engineering. Dick has come here tonight, he's presented a plan, if any of the Board members have an objection and don't want him to continue, then I think there should be a proposed resolution. Otherwise, if there is no objection, he should just continue ahead. Town Board agreed, no objection and to continue. RESOLUTION CALLING FOR QUEENSBURY BOARD OF HEALTH RESOLUTION NO. 170, 93 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. Pliney Tucker WHO MOVED IT'S ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mr. Nick Caimano RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby adjourns from Regular Session to enter as the Queensbury Board of Health. Duly adopted this 8th day of March, 1993, by the following vote: ALL THOSE IN FAVOR: Ayes ALL THOSE OPPOSED: None ABSENT: None QUEENSBURY BOARD OF HEALTH PUBLIC HEARING - SEWER VARIANCE - HOWARD DENISON NOTICE SHOWN 7:35 P.M. DAVE HATIN, Director of Building and Codes-Basically, I don't know what more information the Board wants. This was before you, I believe, two or three weeks ago. Mr. Denison has requested are-hearing because he wasn't here and you granted him that and we're back here tonight. I also don't know if you have a copy of the motion you made before either, so I have a copy of that here tonight also. COUNCILMAN GOETZ-Are you Mr. Denison? MR. HOWARD DENISON-Yes I am. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-A copy of what, Dave? MR. HATIN-The resolution that you adopted on February 8th. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -If I remember that resolution, we said that you've got to fix this thing but you've got a certain amount of time to do it. MR. HATIN-By May 15th, that's right. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Okay, the public hearing is open. Talk to us, anything, tell us what you got in mind. MR. DENISON-Well, I don't know what transpired here the last meeting, so I don't know what was said before hand. I'll just state the case, I guess as I see it and maybe you'll enlighten me as to what was said before hand as we go along here. This house is at 379 Ridge Road. It has a septic system, two dry wells, a thousand gallon holding tank. It was bought back in 1985, if I'm wrong on that date by a year or so, it's possible. It was a new construction at that time and I bought the house to find out that it did not have a CO. It has some structural problems, shortly after I bought it and I went to the Town Building Department and find out that all the inspections were done right along the line except for the last final CO inspection, which needed some handrails and some automatic door closures on the garage door. After my structural problems, the Town informed me that I needed to do some other things to secure the foundation because the backfill wasn't brought in properly and there was undue water pressure against the foundation which caused it to crack and the garage floor fell four inches. When all was said and done, it cost me a little over ten thousand dollars to bring the house up to grade in order to get a CO for it. Which I did and I cooperated with the Building Department at that time. Took my bumps and bruises and went on with life. Seven years later, I had a septic system not working up to grade, it wasn't doing any damage to the environment but it just wasn't flushing out well enough as far as toilets in the house go. So I had a contractor come in to evaluate the situation and when he was trying to find the location of the septic system and the dry well, which he did, he recommended that we put in a larger dry well because the original one didn't have enough stone around it and he thought that since we were digging it all up anyway, we might as well put in a newer one that brought the system up to grade with the new specs. In digging up the dry well that was there, he hit the water line which was right next to the dry well. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-This is the water line going to the house? MR. DENISON-The water line going to the house. It was running in the same hole that the septic system was in. So, naturally we called the Water Department and had the water shut off and when it came time to install the water line back in, it was too close the septic system for the ten feet that was required by the Town. To put it at the ten foot level, would have meant at the time and means today, ripping up the driveway which is blacktopped and it's, you know would have to be ripped up and the water line put down where the driveway is and then blacktopped over. That's part of my dilemma, that this water line which is now further away then it was when I bought the house, is still not far enough away according to the Building Department to satisfy their requirements. The requirements that the Town has, I don't know exactly why it was written the way it was, in the light that the State says it should be and the Town says it must be and I don't know whether that was just a transcription, when one was doing the other. So I've tried to do my investigations to find out what the problem is with it being ten feet or six feet away and what the significance of ten feet is from the leach field. As I understand was stated here at the last meeting, that your aware of now, is that the reason for any separation is if there was a main break in the water line down on Quaker Road, there might be the possibility of negative pressure in the water line going to my house or anyone else's house. And in order for any contamination to flow backwards into that main water system, there would have to be a break in that water line also going into the house. So, that's why... SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Let me ask you a question on that. When that line was broken, while you were putting in, doing the excavation work you were doing, how was it prepared? Is that a copper line to start with? MR. DENISON-Yes, it's a copper line, I believe the rating is M on it or L. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Right, it's a heavy copper, I think it's required. MR. DENISON-CopperK. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Okay and what kind of repair was done. Was there a joint made where the break was? MR. DENISON-No, a new line was put in and I got from the Water Department the type of, the Water Department was there, he gave me the piece that, it couldn't be soldered together on their regulations, it has to have a special fitting with some compression fittings so that it doesn't have the possibility of a leak. And that fitting, that connection is much further away then the ten feet required in any way, but the line does run has I've stated ... SUPERVISOR BRANDT-It's a continuous line then. MR. DENISON-A continuous line to almost the house, it doesn't go all the way up to the house because there was no need to replace the whole line. I mean you would have to dig up the walkway and everything else. But it goes ... SUPERVISOR BRANDT-So the second, then it goes through another compression fitting? MR. DENISON-No, then it goes into the house. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Oh, okay. MR. DENISON-There's only one compression fitting where the break was. It goes from the shut off valve where it was replaced from all the way up to this compression fitting, which this compression fitting repair is further than the ten feet away that we're talking about anyway. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Okay, that was one ... MR. DENISON-So that particular repair right there is further away then the ten feet but the line itself does run within that ten feet, should be and again I put that should be, because I'm trying to figure out ... SUPERVISOR BRANDT-What kind of soils have you got there? MR. DENISON-They're heavy soils, you know, right there where it's closer than the ten feet, it's more of a sandy soil because alot of that was filled in. But the area is basically a heavy soil area. The line is probably six feet down in the ground, so it certainly has it's adequate depth for frost or any problem like that. And again, putting it under the driveway probably has more of an impact as far as frost goes because when you don't have your snow cover, you're driving your frost down. You know, being asphalt, I don't know whether that's, would be a problem because you usually get the rain from that and it will drive the frost down. All and all, I don't know where the variance procedure goes as far as the Health Board is concerned, a health risk to the public is certainly something that we all want to listen to. If I was just, as I tried to do some investigation here to find out what the health risks were, so I could feel comfortable coming before the Board and asking for a variance, the water line that is allowed by the Health Department can be right above the sewer line, if you have municipal city sewage. It can be twelve inches above that, because they're not looking at the sewage rising that much I guess, if there was a break in it and the other chances and you put all the odds together, you're talking about probably some, I don't want to throw numbers out because I tried to get numbers from the State and I tried to get numbers from engineers and if we're talking about a major break that would, these are numbers that have been thrown out to me, a major break on the Ridge Road line, that would cause a negative back pressure by my house, might be two in the last ten or fifteen years. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Right, they're rare but one of the things we did not know was what kind ofa repair was done and that concerned us. It concerned me at least, I can only speak for myself. MR. DENISON-Okay, sure. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-But you say it's a proper fitting and it's properly done, adequately far ... MR. DENISON-I did it personally. Okay, I got in the hole and did put it together personally. The Water Department was by, they gave me the fitting, they showed me where it had to be and I personally installed it myself. So I can, I don't need anybody else to, say a contractor or anybody else did it, I did it personally myself. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Okay. MR. BILL BRITTON-Mike, I just have a question to the Board. The State says that it should be ten feet and the Town states that it must be ten feet and existing away from where it is, is six feet so there's a four foot grey area there. I didn't know if the Board was clear on that. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Okay. Any questions from anyone on the Board? COUNCILMAN GOETZ-David, do you have a recommendation? MR. HATIN-My recommendation would be that you move it to ten feet. MR. BRITTON-What's the reason for that? MR. HATIN-Number one Bill, our ordinance requires it. Number two, I believe the State ordinance requires it also. I don't think is says should, it says shall because ours is a direct interpretation. MR. BRITTON-Howard, will you show him that piece of paper? MR. DENISON-Well, it says minimal horizontal separation often feet should exist between the house sewer and any water line, where lines must cross. And we're certainly not talking about crossing, we're talking about ten feet. The water service line should be above house sewer and be separated by a least twelve inches. MR. BRITTON-That's from the State. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-From what? MR. DENISON-This is from the State Code which the Building Department gave me. MR. HATIN-That's not the way... condition of the State Code, that I can tell you and I did receive a call from the State Health Department the other day from Dan Matchell, I believe who said that Mr. Denison had been in to see them and there was nothing they could do for him. But I did not talk to that person. MR. BRITTON-It's a matter of wording. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-But that really means, it's really our responsibility. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Right. MR. DENISON-Yea, I called Dan Matchell for information on numbers to try, I called the Water Department and they hadn't gotten back to me. I was trying to get some numbers to bring to the Board so that and try to verify it in my own head as to the kind of odds we're talking about for two breaks to occur at the same time... SUPERVISOR BRANDT-It's important to me that you use heavy copper which is required and we didn't know that before. MR. DENISON-Yea, I have the bill here for the heavy copper and I can only testify as to what I did. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Alright and that you used the proper compression fitting and I don't have a problem with it, myself, but it's up to the Board. COUNCILMAN GOETZ-In this resolution that we have, there's a portion about the, it says that the Local Board of Health imposes a condition upon the applicant that he must also secure the approval of the New York State Department of Health. So they get into it at some point, right? MR. HA TIN-There, yes, any variance before this Board is required to be approved also by the State Board of Health, or State Health Department. They must receive approval from them. MR. BRITTON-Do they have to do that first, to the State? MR. HATIN-Generally, it's recommended in this particular case ... COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It's part of the ... MR. HATIN-It's part of the approval. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It's part of the resolution. Which comes first Paul, chicken or the egg? ATTORNEY DUSEK-In the past, it's been done either way. As far as I know, Dave you know better than I but I believe ... MR. HATIN-It's been done either way, I usually recommend that people do it before hand. MR. BRITTON-Well seeing as we're here, can't we settle with the Town and then if you feel if there's a problem, go to the State? SUPERVISOR BRANDT-The answer is we can, it's up to the Board. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Sure. MR. BRITTON-Seeing as they do put the same water and sewer lines for city sewer hookups in the same trench and there is only a twelve inch separation between those with the water line above the sewer line. This is six feet away. MR. HATIN-I'll also remind the Board that we're not talking apples to apples here if your comparing sewer lines to seepage pits. Number one, seepage pits leach out towards the area of the water line. A solid pipe does not leach. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Right, I understand that. Anybody else that's here to speak on this, it's a public hearing? Alright, we'll close the public hearing. PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED 7:46 P.M. RESOLUTION APPROVING A SANITARY SEW AGE DISPOSAL VARIANCE FOR MR. HOWARD DENISON RESOLUTION NO.8, 93 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. Michel Brandt WHO MOVED ITS ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mrs. Betty Monahan WHEREAS, Mr. Howard Denison previously filed a request for a variance from a certain provision of the Town of Queensbury On-Site Sewage Disposal Ordinance, such provision being more specifically that requiring that there be a 10 foot separation between the seepage pit and the water line, and WHEREAS, a notice of public hearing was given in the official newspaper of the Town of Queensbury and a public hearing was held in connection with the variance request on February 8, 1993, and WHEREAS, the Town Clerk advises that property owners within 500 feet of the subject property have been duly notified, NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, a) that due to the nature of the variance, it is felt that the variation will not be materially detrimental to the purposes and objectives of this Ordinance or to other adjoining properties or otherwise conflict with the purpose and objectives of any plan or policy of the Town of Queensbury; b) that the Local Board of Health finds that the granting of the variance is necessary for the reasonable use of the land and that the variance is granted as the minimum variance which would alleviate the specific unnecessary hardship found by the Local Board of Health to affect the applicant; and c) that the Local Board of Health imposes a condition upon the applicant that he must also secure the approval of the New York State Department of Health, and BE IT FURTHER, RESOLVED, that the Town of Queensbury Local Board of Health grants the variance to Mr. Howard Denison, allowing the placement of the seepage pit 6' from the water line, rather than placing it at the mandated 10' distance, on property situated at 379 Ridge Road, Queensbury, New York, and bearing Tax Map #: Section 57, Block 1, Lot 2.2. Duly adopted this 8th day of March, 1993, by the following vote: AYES Mrs. Monahan, Mrs. Goetz, Mr. Brandt NOES Mr. Caimano, Mr. Tucker ABSENT: None RESOLUTION TO SET PUBLIC HEARING ON APPLICATION FOR VARIANCE OF SANITARY SEW AGE DISPOSAL ORDINANCE FOR MR. JOHN MC CALL RESOLUTION NO.9, 93 INTRODUCED BY: Mrs. Betty Monahan WHO MOVED ITS ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mr. Michel Brandt WHEREAS, the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury is, by operation of Law, the Local Board of Health for the Town of Queensbury and, as such, is authorized under Chapter 136 of the Town of Queensbury On-Site Sewage Disposal Ordinance to issue variances to such Ordinance, and to issue variances to the Lake George Wastewater Manual issued by the New York State Dept. of Environmental Conservation, and WHEREAS, Mr. John McCall has applied to the Local Board of Health of the Town of Queensbury for a variance from certain standards of the Lake George Wastewater Manual as set forth in Table B-2, such standard providing as follows: TABLE B-2 MINIMUM SEPARATION DISTANCES (ft.) SEPTIC TANK ABSORPTION SEEP AGE SEWER FIELDS PITS LINE Lake George 200' and WHEREAS, Mr. John McCall has indicated a desire to place the absorption field 100' from the Lake George Shoreline rather than placing it at the mandated 200' distance, NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that the Local Board of Health for the Town of Queensbury will hold a public hearing on March 29th, 1993, at 7:00 p.m., at the Queensbury Activities Center, (reasonably accessible to persons with mobility impairment) 531 Bay Road, Town of Queensbury, Warren County, New York, to consider the application for a variance of Mr. John McCall to place the absorption field 100' from the Lake George Shoreline, rather than placing it at the mandated 200' distance, on property situated on Assembly Point Road, Town of Queensbury, New York, and bearing Tax Map No.: Section 7, Block 1, Lot 16.7, and, at that time, all persons interested in the subject thereof will be heard, and BE IT FURTHER, RESOLVED, that the Town Clerk of the Town of Queensbury be and is hereby directed and authorized, when in receipt of a list of neighbors within 500 feet of the subject property, to publish and provide Notice of said Public Hearing as may be required by law, and authorized to mail copies of said Public Hearing Notice to the adjoining neighbors. Duly adopted this 8th day of March, 1993, by the following vote: ALL THOSE IN FAVOR: Ayes (4) ALL THOSE OPPOSED: No (1, Mr. Tucker) ABSENT: None RESOLUTION TO ADJOURN BOARD OF HEALTH RESOLUTION NO. 10, 93 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. Nick Caimano WHO MOVED IT'S ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mr. Michel Brandt RESOLVED, that the Queensbury Board of Health hereby adjourns and enter Regular Session of the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury. Duly adopted this 8th day of March, 1993, by the following vote: ALL THOSE IN FAVOR: Ayes ALL THOSE OPPOSED: None ABSENT: None QUEENSBURY TOWN BOARD PUBLIC HEARING - SEWER VARIANCE CONNECTION MR. JAMES LAWRENCE c/o MS. MARY DUTY NOTICE SHOWN 7:50 P.M MIKE SHAW, Wastewater Superintendent-The first public hearing is for a sewage variance from connection by Mary Doty on behalf of James Lawrence. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Is the name Doty or Duty? MR. SHAW -Duty, d u t y excuse me. Mary Duty on behalf James Lawrence, owner of 25 Windsor Drive. Mr. Lawrence is currently in a nursing home down in Washington DC. The parcel that he's asking for a variance from connection at this time has been abandoned for four years as the variance request states and in process of being sold. They're apparently looking for a variance from connection until the building is sold, at that time they would be connected. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Okay, there's a public hearing and it's open to the public, anybody want's to comment on this, now is the time. Come right up. BARBARA P ALLOZZI -My name is Barbara Pallozzi and I live on Ridge Road and I am in the sewer district. And I don't know these people, this is off of Glenwood Avenue, right? MR. SHAW-That's correct. MS. P ALLOZZI -I've just been here recently attending alot of meetings where we've had alot of sewer variances and I really don't understand it. We received a memo from Mr. Shaw dated November 1st, 1988 that was mailed to us as property owners within the sewer district in October of 1988 that gave us twelve months to hook up our properties. That's four and a half years ago. So actually the time to hook expired three and a half years ago and I know alot of people that have had alot problems with these connections. I know people that had to take out home equity loans in order to do it. I know people that we're buying property within the sewer district where the lender found out that it was within the sewer district and made them hook up the properties prior to the time that they took title. Some of them had to borrow from relatives, etcetera. It's been a tremendous hardship but I think the time for all of this to have been worked out, was during the Borgos Administration. November 1989 was when our time expired and now it's 1993, I don't understand why we're listening to all of these variances. Every single meeting that I've attended recently, has all of these requests. I guess my first question is, how many properties are there out there that haven't hooked up? I know it was expensive, we were told five hundred to fifteen hundred dollars to hook up and I don't know anybody that got that kind of an estimate. Most of us got estimates of twenty-five to four thousand dollars but we had to do it. And I think, you know the only way that it works, any way the government works, is if it's fair and if it's uniform and it applies to everybody and it applies to everybody equally. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-How many are still left unhooked? MR. SHAW-Nine. COUNCILMAN TUCKER-Mam, I think one of the things that's bringing this about at this present time was that Mr. Shaw was instructed to write letters to these people and tell them if they didn't hook up, that we were going to start court actions and that's what's happened. Now, we've got into the cold weather and they're coming in and asking for variances until, most of them until Spring. This is the second time we've looked at this one right here, this particular one. But that's one of the reasons you've been seeing alot of them, is we had some people that just ignored everything and when was October or November, we decided that we were going to take them to court if they didn't hook up and he set them all letters stating so. MS. PALLOZZI-Is there a reason why it took so long? MR. SHAW-Took so long for what? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- To send letters? MS. PALLOZZI-We had a memo from you dated November 1, 88 it said twelve months, that's what the attachment said pursuant to local law number 3 of 1988. MR. SHAW-That's part of the original letter that was sent out, okay, as the contracts came available, as the Department so directed. COUNCILMAN GOETZ-Barbara, I'm sympathetic to what you've just stated and we can't answer for the past people but it's a mess. MS. PALLOZZI-I mean, I know and I understand, it's just that I know so many people with so many hardships. I mean like I appeared, like back when you were the only one Betty, you are the only one from the other Board and I specifically told them and this was a complaint about sewer rents and I was not here when you passed it and I was not even here when it was scheduled for public hearing. Thank you very much all of you for doing something to alleviate that. But I specifically gave an example of an individual that I said I believed because of the sewer rents, would probably lose his home. With the sewer rents and the cost of the hookup, it did happen and it, there's got to be some equity here, you know. COUNCILMAN GOETZ-Well, we're trying to clean up the mess and put the pressure on. MS. PALLOZZI-I know, I understand that, I'm not here really to criticize you, I'm just frustrated. COUNCILMAN GOETZ-I know, I don't blame you. MS. PALLOZZI-You know, I could have taken that money and spent it elsewhere on anything. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Well, and you said we've given quite a few variances, I think in fact, we've given time. MS. PALLOZZI-I think all of these variances are coming up now and if they were going to come up that, I feel that they should have come up between 1988 and 1989. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Well, we've directed that we push this thing and handle all these, that's why they're all coming up. First thing they can do is apply for a variance. I think there was a variance given where there was empty property and only for the period of time until it sells and then they have to hook up. But otherwise for the most part I believe I'm accurate in stating that we've asked for connections. I'm going by memory, we have to do a statistical analysis. There was one that other day it was for, was it forty thousand dollar estimate or? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- Yes. MS. PALLOZZI-I mean things like that I can understand and appreciate. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-And we told them they had a year to do it, to schedule it in because of cash flow but we told them they had to hook up. MS. PALLOZZI-I'mjust saying, you know, you've got to be fair to everybody and treat all the properties almost equally. And I mean, when you run into something, I mean I know of some properties where the estimates, like a single family residence, twenty-five thousand dollars, that's need consideration. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Right. Okay, thank you. MS. PALLOZZI-Thank you. COUNCILMAN GOETZ-Mike, if we were to grant a variance conditioned upon sale of the property, how do you follow it up? How do you know when it's sold? MR. SHA W-I really don't know when it's sold. There is a letter stating that, I think you have that, Jane Potter is currently interested in buying the property. She has so called me at one time and stated that if she does buy the property, renovate the complete property and connect it to the sewer ... COUNCILMAN TUCKER-How many times can these people come for variances? MR. SHAW-This is the first time this one's been to us. COUNCILMAN TUCKER-No it is not. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I never remember seeing this one. MR. SHAW-This is the first time this one been before us. COUNCILMAN TUCKER-Previously applied to the Town Board or the Town of Queensbury for a variance in relief, from that part of law requiring sewer connection upon the grounds, the ground is frozen. MR. SHAW-No, you don't have ... COUNCILMAN TUCKER-Whereas the applicant previously indicated he will hookup as soon as the weather permits. COUNCILMAN GOETZ-Is that the same one? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I think that's the same one, they're talking about the reasons it came with this variance on the other application that we get Pliney before we get this. I believe, I don't know, I didn't write this so I'm not sure. COUNCILMAN GOETZ-Okay, but I'm concerned about the follow up, if the variance was granted. I mean they could... COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-How can we follow it up? COUNCILMAN GOETZ-That's my question. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-But certainly we give occupancy permits. MR. SHAW-Well, certainly this building is abandoned now, Dave is gone, okay. I think Dave Hatin is familiar with the building and I think he probably would have to give ... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Jim, can you help us with this at all? JIM MARTIN, Executive Director-If it's new construction, we can help. The only thing I might recommend is if it's a sale of an existing house, through the assessor's office, they would be, I think they're notified of all transactions. COUNCILMAN TUCKER-It will get lost. MR. SHAW-Well, currently there's only a few of these that are ... that haven't connected ... COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Well, one sure way to not get it lost, is to deny the variance. COUNCILMAN GOETZ-Yes. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- Then there's a hook hanging on it. It may not get done. MR. SHAW-This, you this building is currently vacant and has been abandoned for four years, I'm just letting you know, stating that fact. COUNCILMAN TUCKER-There's got to be other pieces of property in the sewer district and it's vacant that are hooked up to the sewer, there's got to be others. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Is there any way Paul, and maybe this is expensive and impractical but you know, you're kind of stuck once the sale has been completed trying to find a mechanism to force them to hook up even though we say that's a condition of the sale. Is there any way we can do on the tax map at Warren County, put these, this condition that's there, so that one might, if somebody's going to buy a piece of property knowing that condition is there? And if so, is it expensive for us to do? ATTORNEY DUSEK-No, I think, well yes, that seems kind of impractical. The only thing that I could think of that you could do is require them to make it, you know the person you give it to, a condition of sale in terms of writing it into their contract and perhaps putting it in the deed so it shows up. But that would be the only mechanism. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But we wouldn't know if they ever did it, that's what I'm saying. I'm trying to find out some way we can really be sure. COUNCILMAN TUCKER-How many parcels are on the sewer district, total of the top of your head? MR. SHAW-Total parcels, vacant ... COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-No, total. MR. SHAW-Seven hundred and eighty... five hundred and eighty, there's probably two hundred parcels vacant. ATTORNEY DUSEK-You may want to just think in terms ofa limited amount of time and that way you can have, then Mike can follow up at the end of that time period and find out. COUNCILMAN TUCKER-Yea, right. MR. MARTIN-There maybe, the easiest solution, just a shorter variance. You know, sixty days, ninety days. COUNCILMAN GOETZ-Well, we've been consistently granting them until June 30th at this point because of the weather. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Okay, that's sounds like it makes sense to me. Anyone else that wants to speak on this? Close the public hearing on it. PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED 7:55 P.M. RESOLUTION APPROVING VARIANCE FROM REQUIRED SEWER CONNECTIONS FOR MR. JAMES LAWRENCE C/O MS. MARY DUTY RESOLUTION NO. 171, 93 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. Nick Caimano WHO MOVED ITS ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mr. Michel Brandt WHEREAS, the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury is authorized, pursuant to ~ 136-44.1 of the Code of the Town of Queensbury, to, upon request, waive the sewer connection requirement of ~ 136- 44 thereof or vary the time in which such connection must be made, provided that certain standards and criteria or conditions are met or demonstrated and provided that a certain procedure is followed, and WHEREAS, in granting a variance or waiver, the Town Board may consider one or all of the following circumstances: (a) The distance from the building to the town sewer pipeline to which connection is required. (b) The cost of the connection. (c) The existence or nonexistence of any physical obstructions. (d) The financial loss to be sustained by the property owner in the event of nonuse of the current system. (e) Whether the current sewage disposal system is properly functioning. (f) Whether any rights-of-way or easements are needed in order for the applicant to make the connection to the town sewer system. (g) Whether strict application of the connection requirement of ~ 136-44 would result in a specified difficulty to the applicant, for which the applicant has not been given a reasonable time to respond to or address, and whether the variance or waiver would be materially detrimental to the purposes of the sewer connection requirement or that the property and the district in which the property is located or otherwise conflict with the description or objections of the plan or policy of the town and that the interests of justice are served; and WHEREAS, if the Town Board finds any or all of the above circumstances or conditions, the Town Board may grant the following relief: (a) In the event that circumstances giving rise to the request are due to physical obstructions, costs significantly greater than the usual sewer connection costs, a distance greater than two hundred fifty (250) feet from the sewer pipeline to the building or structure to be connected or a documented inability to obtain an easement or right-of-way over which the sewer line must pass in order to connect to the town sewer system, the Town Board may grant a permanent waiver from the requirement that the applicant connect the subject property, provided that the sewage disposal system currently serving the property is operational, in accordance with the Town of Queensbury laws and regulations and appropriate New York State agency rules and regulations, and (b) In the event that the circumstances giving rise to the request are due to excessive costs of connection, the financial loss to be sustained by the property owner in the event of nonuse of the current system or any other specified difficulty which makes it difficult or impractical for the applicant to connect to the town sewer system and the applicant is willing to pay the full and usual sewer rents or taxes accruing against the property, the Town Board may grant an extension of time, not exceeding two (2) years, in which to connect to the town sewer system, provided that the sewage disposal system currently serving the property is operational, in accordance with the Town of Queensbury laws and regulations and appropriate New York State agency rules and regulations, and WHEREAS, Mr. James Lawrence c/o Ms. Mary Duty previously applied to the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury for a variance and relief from that part of the law requiring sewer connections upon the grounds that: the ground is frozen; and WHEREAS, the applicant previously indicated that: he will hook up as soon as the weather permits; , and WHEREAS, a notice of public hearing was given in the official newspaper of the Town of Queensbury and a public hearing was held in connection with the variance request on March 8, 1993, and WHEREAS, the Town Board has received a report from Michael Shaw, Waste Water Superintendent, NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that the Town Board hereby grants a temporary variance until June 30th, 1993 so long as: sewer is hooked up either by June 30th, 1993 or whenever it is sold, whichever comes first. Duly adopted this 8th day of March, 1993, by the following vote: AYES Mrs. Goetz, Mr. Caimano, Mr. Tucker, Mrs. Monahan, Mr. Brandt NOES : None ABSENT: None PUBLIC HEARING - SEWER VARIANCE CONNECTION - ROBERT D.S. CONDIT NOTICE SHOWN 7:56 P.M. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-We have another variance hearing for Mr. Condit. Is there anyone here concerning that one? COUNCILMAN TUCKER-It isn't a legal application. We don't have three estimates on the cost with this thing. MR. SHAW-Mr. Condit? COUNCILMAN TUCKER-Yea. MR. SHAW-That's correct. COUNCILMAN TUCKER-The estimated cost of connection is four thousand four hundred and fifty and it's just typed in here. We're supposed to have three estimates from authorized people to put these things in. MR. SHA W -That's correct, he has one, one of the estimates are connected and as he stated here, he has tried to get other estimates and for whatever reasons, he hasn't had response from the contractors. But the reasons these are processed now, is because I have given them a deadline of, actually February 28th and after that date we would proceed legal action against them. So we're at the point now ... SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Is there anyone here to speak on this application? COUNCILMAN GOETZ-Where is it on Quaker Road? MR. SHAW-Just on the corner of Everts and Quaker, currently Bob Baker's Pool, across from Queensbury Motors. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-What's it used for now? MR. SHAW - I think Bob Baker Pools was in there, I'm not sure that they are in there any longer. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Well, he's on his way out though. MR. SHAW - I went by there today and it looked like they're moving out. COUNCILMAN TUCKER-Yea, he's no longer there. Bob Baker is down on Sassone Road in South Glens Falls or something. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Do you want to go to June 30th? SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Right, it gives them time to, the high water table ... COUNCILMAN GOETZ-If we're going to be consistent. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Right. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Okay, I'll move a temporary approval. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Wait a minute, let me close the public hearing. Anyone else that want's to speak on this? Okay, I'll close the public hearing. PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED 7:59 P.M. RESOLUTION APPROVING VARIANCE FROM REQUIRED SEWER CONNECTIONS FOR MR. ROBERT D. S. CONDIT RESOLUTION NO. 172, 93 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. Nick Caimano WHO MOVED ITS ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mrs. Susan Goetz WHEREAS, the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury is authorized, pursuant to ~ 136-44.1 of the Code of the Town of Queensbury, to, upon request, waive the sewer connection requirement of ~ 136- 44 thereof or vary the time in which such connection must be made, provided that certain standards and criteria or conditions are met or demonstrated and provided that a certain procedure is followed, and WHEREAS, in granting a variance or waiver, the Town Board may consider one or all of the following circumstances: (a) The distance from the building to the town sewer pipeline to which connection is required. (b) The cost of the connection. (c) The existence or nonexistence of any physical obstructions. (d) The financial loss to be sustained by the property owner in the event of nonuse of the current system. (e) Whether the current sewage disposal system is properly functioning. (f) Whether any rights-of-way or easements are needed in order for the applicant to make the connection to the town sewer system. (g) Whether strict application of the connection requirement of ~ 136-44 would result in a specified difficulty to the applicant, for which the applicant has not been given a reasonable time to respond to or address, and whether the variance or waiver would be materially detrimental to the purposes of the sewer connection requirement or that the property and the district in which the property is located or otherwise conflict with the description or objections of the plan or policy of the town and that the interests of justice are served; and WHEREAS, if the Town Board finds any or all of the above circumstances or conditions, the Town Board may grant the following relief: (a) In the event that circumstances giving rise to the request are due to physical obstructions, costs significantly greater than the usual sewer connection costs, a distance greater than two hundred fifty (250) feet from the sewer pipeline to the building or structure to be connected or a documented inability to obtain an easement or right-of-way over which the sewer line must pass in order to connect to the town sewer system, the Town Board may grant a permanent waiver from the requirement that the applicant connect the subject property, provided that the sewage disposal system currently serving the property is operational, in accordance with the Town of Queensbury laws and regulations and appropriate New York State agency rules and regulations, and (b) In the event that the circumstances giving rise to the request are due to excessive costs of connection, the financial loss to be sustained by the property owner in the event of nonuse of the current system or any other specified difficulty which makes it difficult or impractical for the applicant to connect to the town sewer system and the applicant is willing to pay the full and usual sewer rents or taxes accruing against the property, the Town Board may grant an extension of time, not exceeding two (2) years, in which to connect to the town sewer system, provided that the sewage disposal system currently serving the property is operational, in accordance with the Town of Queensbury laws and regulations and appropriate New York State agency rules and regulations, and WHEREAS, Mr. Robert D. S. Condit previously applied to the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury for a variance and relief from that part of the law requiring sewer connections upon the grounds that: The estimated cost of connection is $4,450.00 and the applicant states that he cannot afford to have the work done; and WHEREAS, the applicant previously indicated that: The septic tank and leach system both located under the lawn on the west side of the building are currently functioning properly and have never created a problem. Also, the building has only a 1/2 bath, with no bathing or cooking facilities. , and WHEREAS, a notice of public hearing was given in the official newspaper of the Town of Queensbury and a public hearing was held in connection with the variance request on March 8, 1993, and WHEREAS, the Town Board has received a report from Michael Shaw, Waste Water Superintendent, NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that the Town Board hereby grants a temporary variance until June 30th, 1993 so long as: sewer is hooked up either by June 30th, 1993 or whenever it is sold, whichever comes first. Duly adopted this 8th day of March, 1993, by the following vote: AYES Mr. Caimano, Mr. Tucker, Mrs. Monahan, Mrs. Goetz, Mr. Brandt NOES : None ABSENT: None Town Board held further discussion with Mr. Shaw regarding the four remaining parcels needing variances. Town Board agreed that all variances should be consistent with temporary extensions until June 30th and Attorney Dusek agreed to prepare necessary paperwork for next Board meeting. PUBLIC HEARING - TRANSIENT MERCHANT/SOLICITORS MARKET PAUL 1. WELLS d/b/a GO SLO ENGINEERING NOTICE SHOWN 8: 13 P.M. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-I declare the public hearing open, speak to us and tell us what and we've all seen the application. MR. PAUL WELLS-You've all seen the application. What I want to do is a flea market during the week of Americade behind my business. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Do me a favor and just turn the microphone, that's right because there's a formal record and for the record give your name. MR. WELLS-My name is Paul Wells. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-And your business is currently on the Miller Hill Mall now and you want to do something behind it? MR. WELLS-Yes. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Let me ask, it's a public hearing, is there anyone here that would like to speak on this application? UNKNOWN-Can you give us a little more information? SUPERVISOR BRANDT-For the audience, fill them in what you're doing. MR. WELLS-Well, I'mjust going to have people come in and sell goods and motorcycle related stuff during the week of Americade. I don't know, I really don't ... UNKNOWN-Where is this going to be located? MR. WELLS-This is going to be located behind Miller Hill Mall on the property out back. COUNCILMAN GOETZ-Is one of the reasons for it because you have a parking problem? I mean isn't it hard to get in and out of there? MR. WELLS-No, the reason for it, well there's no way I could have transient merchant, well I couldn't have people come in and set up on my property because there just isn't enough ... COUNCILMAN GOETZ-That's what I mean. MR. WELLS-Room in the front of the property and out back is all wasted space that never gets used anyway, so I asked my landlord if it would be okay with him, I figured I would take advantage of the space and take advantage of the event and try to bring some of the money from Lake George into Queensbury rather than ... COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-In the past, hasn't there been a van set up there, a display van set up there? MR. WELLS-There was last year and if I can, if this works out for me, I'm going to try to get them out back to get them out of the front. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Okay. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Do you want to speak for the public hearing? Go ahead. MR. PHILO-I think I can add a little to this, on was on the Board, the Zoning Board when this man appeared before the Zoning Board. We asked the man for some setbacks, we said there was no line on the side, Queensbury Avenue is it? What's the name of the street? MR. WELLS-Montray. MR. PHILO-Montray, there was no, the County line was within twenty some feet of their house and they wanted to use iffor parking. They wanted to put a porch out front, am I right? MR. WELLS-No, this has nothing to do with a house. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-No, this is the wrong, this has nothing to do with it. County Line has got nothing to do with where he is. MR. WELLS-That house isn't even on our property. MR. PHILO-Where you want to put the motorcycle shop, is not anywhere near Dix Avenue? MR. WELLS-No. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-No, it's on Miller Hill Mall, Tom. MR. WELLS-No, you're talking about somebody down on Dix Avenue. MR. PHILO-I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Thank you Mike. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Okay, anyone else have anything to say? Any other questions from the Board members? COUNCILMAN TUCKER-He's going to abide by the ... MR. WELLS-There is a few things that aren't in the application, that aren't in front of you that I wanted to make the Board aware of. One of the things is, if I get approved, I would like permission to be able to put no parking signs along Montray Road so people don't try to park. One of the other things is ... COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I don't think we can do that. COUNCILMAN TUCKER-What does the Attorney say? ATTORNEY DUSEK-I'm sorry, what was the proposal? COUNCILMAN TUCKER-To put parking signs, no parking signs. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-He wants to put no parking on Montray Road, do we have to run that through Paul Naylor? ATTORNEY DUSEK-No, you can't put that, any no parking signs up without passing a local law. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Right. MR. WELLS-I can't put a temporary sign up to avoid people from trying to park on the side of the road? ATTORNEY DUSEK-No, that's within the jurisdiction of the government and you can't regulate road or prohibit people from using the roads. MR. WELLS- I just thought that would be like a convenience for my neighbors, that people don't try to park along in front of their houses. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-We can't do it. COUNCILMAN TUCKER-We can't allow you to do it sir. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- What's the other thing you were going to do? MR. WELLS-Well, the other thing is, I contacted South Queensbury Fire Department about coming in and selling beer. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-I like beer, maybe I'll come over. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I used to like beer too but that's not our, I don't think that's our jurisdiction either, that's liquor authority. MR. WELLS-I want, I don't want to try to hide anything on anybody and the other thing that I'd like to do is that I'd like to either have some kind of entertainment. Either band or DJ or something like that. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-How long? MR. WELLS-From, the hours of the flea market would be from ten a.m. to eight p.m. and I would like to have the entertainment from four to eight. COUNCILMAN TUCKER-May I ask, does our law cover what he's talking about now? ATTORNEY DUSEK-Well, I think it, it certainly isn't design to address entertainment and beer but I think it does indirectly in as much as that under the criteria that you must consider for a transient merchant market, that is you must be sure that there is sufficient traffic circulation available, safety etcetera. So I think if you look at it from the perspective of whether or not that band or any of the other activities will interfere with anything that you, that's outlined here under this. There's a list of factors in your resolution here that says you can consider. You could restrict the use of the property accordingly. So it's really up to the Board. For instance and I'm not trying to make a position either way, if you felt the band for instance didn't have any effect, then you could just disregard it. If you felt however that a band might have an impact on bringing more people and adding to the congestion, then you might want to consider that. You know, but you can consider it in that light in terms of traffic, the area etcetera. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It was awful simple until you put the beer and the band in. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Mr. Wells, this flea market that you're doing, is this going to be like people having vans and putting up an awning and selling out of a van, that type of a thing? MR. WELLS-No, they're not going to be allowed to do that. We're going to have, we have, if you see the way we have it marked off. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yea, I just wanted to ask you that. MR. WELLS-The spots, the vendors aren't going to be able to stay on the property, they are going to have to leave. The market is going to close at eight p.m., they have an hour to get out and then I'm paying security, a security company to come in and watch their goods and the property during the hours that we're not open. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Are you going to have, alright, so they're going to have to park their vehicle on your property some place. MR. WELLS-Yes. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Are you going to have enough for a hundred and twenty merchants to park plus the people that come in? MR. WELLS-Well, as far as the people coming in, the way I'm going to advertise it is, this is a motorcycle event and there will be motorcycle parking only. We're not going to provide parking for cars. The week of Americade is a motorcycle event and that is the people that we're going after. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Okay. ATTORNEY DUSEK-I just thought of one thing I should just mention. My recollection is there was something under a mass gathering public health law that we probably should take a look at if there's going to be a band operation. I'm not trying to throw a clink in the plan here but ... COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-He already did. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Well, there seems to be a discussion here on the Board, that we don't have any problem until he gets to the band and there's some problem with what that does. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well, I think I have a little problem maybe with the beer on the site too because ... COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Well we have no, as far as I'm concerned, that's the State. COUNCILMAN TUCKER-That has no jurisdiction as far as we're concerned, the State of New York. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- That's the State. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-You know, I just think maybe that's going for trouble. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I don't think we have anything that, I don't think we can, correct me if I'm wrong Paul, I don't think we can touch that. I think that's State Liquor authority isn't it? Whether the beer is allowed or not? ATTORNEY DUSEK-Well, we don't have any regulations, certainly as to that. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Right, fine. COUNCILMAN TUCKER-Yea, he's going to have to apply for a license to, or somebody is. MR. WELLS-If the fire company comes in and sells beer, they're going to have to provide a license and insurance, some kind of liability insurance. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I'd like to do one thing, I'd like to wait one week, I'd like to go into a site plan review and see how close this is to the residents. I think I know, but I'm not sure. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-How close are we to the residents? MR. WELLS-There's two residents on Montray Road and I went to them personally and spoke to them Sunday and they said they had no problems whatsoever with what I was going to do. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- There's nobody here to talk about it. COUNCILMAN TUCKER-No complaints about your band or anything? MR. WELLS-They said they had no problem, they said as far as they were concerned, their property was their property to do what they wanted to and my property was my property to do what I wanted to do with it. TOWN CLERK DOUGHER-Excuse me Nick but all residents within five hundred feet were sent notification of this. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Oh, they were? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-So, they're not here. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Okay, is there anyone else that wants to speak on this application? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Fourteen days, it says fourteen days, do we have what fourteen days these are? MR. WELLS-It says fourteen days but all I'm interested in, is June 8th through the 12th or I think it's 9th through 12th. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, I don't like that fourteen days in there because that's alot longer than Americade. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-No. Can we date that Paul, please? ATTORNEY DUSEK-Sure, that's just what the statue provides, you can ... MR. WELLS-The vendors will be there from the 8th to the 12th, so I want to give them a day to setup, so we're probably looking at the 7th through the 12th. But the 12th it will be over with. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Americade ends the 12th, don't you want to give them a day to take down and get their stuff out of there too. MR. WELLS-Yea, I guess so. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Paul, if you have problems because of the band and it causes a problem, you'll discontinue it, right? I mean, you'll take whatever actions are appropriate in what you see, right? MR. WELLS-I don't want to make any enemies because I would like to be able to do this every year. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Sure, right, I think that's the smart thing. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Alright, common sense rules. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I think it would depend upon you know how noise, how much amplifiers because if you put a band on there and you get enough amplification, I'll hear it over at my house, I guarantee it. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Well, I don't know with your hearing, I'm not sure. MR. WELLS-I'm sure with thirty thousand motorcycles in Town, you hear them also. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I like motorcycles. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-We need to change this a little bit though, number 4 needs to, shall be valid for a total offourteen days from 6/7 to 6/12,93 or shall be valid from ... MR. WELLS-6/13th. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-The 7th through the 13th. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- What? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-What's the date of Americade. MR. WELLS-Americade is 8th through the 12th. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-So you want to have a day before? COUNCILMAN TUCKER-So we give you 7th through the 13th? MR. WELLS-Can we have 6th through 13th, that way they've got a day or two to set up and a day to get out? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Sure, okay so 6th through 13th. COUNCILMAN TUCKER-Darleen, you do that don't you? TOWN CLERK DOUGHER-I beg your pardon, say it again Pliney. COUNCILMAN TUCKER-I said, you issue the permit anyway don't you? TOWN CLERK DOUGHER-Yes. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-6/6th through 6/13th, number 4. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Darleen, you usually walk us through these alot, do you see anything that we should be doing here that we haven't done? TOWN CLERK DOUGHER-Well, personally, it's the best application I've ever seen come in. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Do we require insurance by them? TOWN CLERK DOUGHER-He has a letter of intent. MR. WELLS-You don't require it but I put a letter in saying that I would... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I see that your bonding is, I didn't notice that there was other insurance or not. Is there liability insurance? MR. WELLS-Yes, I've got ... COUNCILMAN GOETZ-This one Betty, right here. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I thought I was reading a duplicate, so I didn't read it very good. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-You know, Paul the number 4, the license shall be valid, I think that should read from 6/6/93 to 6/13/93 inclusive period because the rest of it, is, it shouldn't be there. ATTORNEY DUSEK-Well, I think you want to say provided that the market remains in the same location. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-What do you mean? ATTORNEY DUSEK-That's the next line. I think you want to keep that in still, right? COUNCILMAN TUCKER-See, this is all part of the law, that you're reading right here. This is part of the law. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I know. COUNCILMAN TUCKER-And all your, all you want to do here is just cut down the number of days this gentleman can operate. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I also don't want, excuse me, I also don't want that sentence after and. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well, that's okay because what you do where is says 6 ... COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-No, it's not. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Wait a minute, you put a specific date in there that, instead of saying for a total offourteen days, just say shall be valid ... COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I already said what I'm going to say, the problem is if I use the word 6/6th to 6/13th, and continue on, it also says that if he doesn't use one of those days, he can use it some time in February. That's what the rest of that sentence says. ATTORNEY DUSEK-You can change that by just simply taking out the one year and put in shall expire midnight June 13th, 1993. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- Thank you. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Okay. Anybody else who wants to speak on this? Close the public hearing then. PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED 8:30 P.M. Town Board held further discussion regarding hours of operation and the following resolution was proposed: RESOLUTION APPROVING TRANSIENT MERCHANT/SOLICITOR'S MARKET LICENSE FOR PAUL 1. WELLS D/B/A GO SLO ENGINEERING RESOLUTION NO. 173, 93 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. Nick Caimano WHO MOVED ITS ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mrs. Susan Goetz WHEREAS, Mr. Paul 1. Wells, d/b/a Go Slo Engineering, has made application to the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury for a license to operate a Transient Merchant and/or Solicitor's Market, in accordance with the provisions of Chapter 160 of the Code of the Town of Queensbury, and WHEREAS, a Notice of Public Hearing was given in the official newspaper of the Town of Queensbury and a public hearing was held in connection with the license application on March 8, 1993, NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury has considered the following factors as required by the Local Law: 1. Adequacy and arrangement of vehicular traffic access and circulation, including intersections, dividers and traffic controls; 2. Location, arrangements, appearance, and sufficiency of off-street parking and loading; 3. Adequacy and arrangement of pedestrian traffic access and circulation, walkway structures, control of intersections with vehicular traffic and overall pedestrian convenience; 4. Adequacy of water supply and sewage disposal facilities; 5. Adequacy, type, and arrangement of trees, shrubs, and other landscaping constituting a visual and/or noise, buffer between the applicant and adjoining lands including the maximum retention of existing vegetation; and BE IT FURTHER, RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury grants the application for a Transient Merchant and/or Solicitor's Market license to Mr. Paul 1. Wells d/b/a Go Slo Engineering, allowing him to operate a Transient Merchant and/or Solicitor Market at Miller Hill Mall, Route 9, Queensbury, subject to the following: 1. 2. of Queensbury; 3. Proof of authorization to do business in New York and authorization of agent to receive service of summons or other legal process in New York; 4. The License shall be valid from June 6th, 1993 through June 13th, 1993 and shall expire Midnight, June 13th, 1993, and provided the market remains in the same location, regardless of whether all days are used; 5. The License shall not be assignable; and 6. Compliance with all regulations concerning Transient Merchants under ~ 160-11 of the Code of the Town of Queensbury. 7. Hours of Operation shall be from 10 a.m.- 8 p.m. from 9 a.m.- 9 p.m. for the Vendors. Payment offees as required by Chapter 160 of the Code of the Town of Queensbury; A bond in the amount of $10,000.00 as required by Chapter 160 of the Code of the Town for the General Public and Duly adopted this 8th day of March, 1993, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Tucker, Mrs. Monahan, Mrs. Goetz, Mr. Caimano, Mr. Brandt NOES: None ABSENT: None BEFORE VOTE: Councilman Monahan-Mr. Wells, I would assume your liability policy which is only going through the 8th to 12th, but also match these dates of 6th to 13th, even though you don't intend the public to be here, that you make it consistent. Mr. Wells-Yes. RESOLUTIONS RESOLUTION APPROVING MINUTES RESOLUTION NO. 174, 93 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. Pliney Tucker WHO MOVED IT'S ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mr. Nick Caimano RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby approve the Town Board Minutes of February 2nd, 1993. Duly adopted this 8th day of March, 1993, by the following vote: ALL THOSE IN FAVOR: Ayes ALL THOSE OPPOSED: None ABSENT: None RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING INTERFUND ADVANCES RESOLUTION NO. 175, 93 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. Michel Brandt WHO MOVED ITS ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mr. Nick Caimano WHEREAS, pursuant to Section 9-A of the General Municipal Law of the State of New York, the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury is authorized to temporarily advance moneys held in any fund to any other fund, NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby authorizes the temporary advance of funds to the accounts or funds indicated, and in the amounts indicated, as set forth below: FROM: TO: $ AMOUNT 40 - Queensbury Water 34 - Hiland Park Sewer 4,000.00 01 - General Fund 910 - Landfill Fund 25,000.00 and BE IT FURTHER, RESOLVED, that the Town Supervisor, as Chief Fiscal Officer, is hereby authorized and directed to arrange for and accomplish the above-authorized transfers, and temporary advances, and BE IT FURTHER, RESOLVED, that the Town Supervisor, as Chief Fiscal Officer, shall keep suitable records and arrange for the repayment of the temporary advances as soon as possible, and the Town Supervisor shall also determine the amount of interest, if any, to be paid, upon repayment. Duly adopted this 8th day of March, 1993, by the following vote: AYES: Mrs. Monahan, Mrs. Goetz, Mr. Caimano, Mr. Brandt NOES: Mr. Tucker ABSENT: None RESOLUTION CONCERNING HUDSON POINTE PUD RESOLUTION NO. 176, 93 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. Michel Brandt WHO MOVED ITS ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mrs. Susan Goetz WHEREAS, the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury has determined that the proposed Hudson Pointe PUD may have a significant effect on the environment and has required the preparation of an Environmental Impact Statement, and WHEREAS, the preparation of an Environmental Impact Statement is a lengthy, time-consuming, and expensive proposition, and WHEREAS, the developer of Hudson Pointe has asked that certain legislative decisions be settled before the preparation of an Environmental Impact Statement, NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury determines the following: 1. The project, if possible environmental impacts can be satisfied, does qualify for a PUD designation in that it meets the purposes and objectives and general requirements of a PUD set forth in ~179-51 and ~179-52 of the Code of the Town of Queensbury; 2. The maximum density of the project per the PUD regulations is 170 housing units; the actual number of housing units will be limited and determined by the developers application for 163 units and the ground carrying capacity determined by engineering studies and the Environmental Impact Study. Duly adopted this 8th day of March, 1993, by the following vote: AYES: Mrs. Goetz, Mr. Caimano, Mr. Tucker, Mr. Brandt NOES: Mrs. Monahan ABSENT: None DISCUSSION REGARDING ENGINEERING FIRMS FOR SCOPING SESSION: Supervisor Brandt-What we're doing is picking engineers for a scoping session. Councilman Caimano-Well, we're asking the Executive Director to contact four engineers for the scoping seSSIOn. Executive Director, Mr. Martin-Right, I have a preliminary list offour but it's a matter of discussion. Rist- Frost, Morse Engineering, Haanan Engineering and another individual who was discussed, Eugene Christian who I believe the Board is aware of that name. It was told to me that you are. Councilman Caimano-Aware of the name? Mr. Martin-Right. Councilman Caimano- Yes. Councilman Monahan-Jim, it seems to me that those firms are more on the engineering and very little planning in them. I would suggest one that we've used before which is Environmental Design Partnership that has the round, a little more roundness of expertise and I'd also suggest LA Consultants. I think when you go to a straight plain engineering in this you're in trouble. That you need somebody with some planning background too. Mr. Martin-Well, the LA Group was a name that was mentioned in our initial session where the Developer was present and that was one that they weren't comfortable. I don't know what the justification for that was. Councilman Goetz-Who wasn't? Mr. Martin-The Development Team, the applicant. Supervisor Brandt-Who is Environmental Design? Councilman Monahan-That's Dennis MacElroy, he's done I think all... Supervisor Brandt-Well, let me tell you, I'm uncomfortable with that one. Councilman Caimano- Why? Supervisor Brandt-Because I went through the screwing that he gave my company when we went through an application, it was one of the worst screwings I've ever seen and this Town allowed it and I would absolutely oppose him. I don't care about looking at other people but I will oppose him to the end. Councilman Goetz-Now, Gene Christian has quite a background, doesn't he work for Bolton? Mr. Martin-Right. Councilman Goetz-Can you tell us a little bit. Mr. Martin-I've never met, you probably have more information on the man, then I personally do. Ijust heard his name for the first time during our initial meeting with the applicant. Councilman Tucker-Is the gentleman that we dealt with? Councilman Goetz-Yes. Supervisor Brandt-Yea, I thought ... Councilman Goetz-He's got more of what, does he have more or no? Councilman Caimano-I don't know. Councilman Tucker-He was involved in planning and what have you in the Town of Bolton, was he not? Councilman Goetz-Yes, I thought he was the Zoning Inspector. Councilman Monahan-I don't think he's a licensed planner though. Mr. Martin-I think he was involved in the writing of their Master Plan or the Town Plan. Councilman Caimano-Say again. Mr. Martin-I heard in was involved in the Town Master Plan. Councilman Monahan-That's not planning. Councilman Caimano-Okay but I honestly, I know the man very well and I don't really think he has the depth and breath of knowledge to do this. That's my feeling. Supervisor Brandt-I think the problem we're going to have, just like the four or five of us or at least some of us didn't feel that we had the depth to look at all of this data and understand it all. You know anyone person, you're going to the same thing but I think that if you go to any consultant and they feel they don't have the information, they're going to subcontract and hire people that do have that kind of information. Councilman Caimano-But I don't know that Christian, I don't think he's in the business of doing it, that's all I'm saying. Supervisor Brandt-He's a got a, professional engineer which is what these other people are. Councilman Caimano-He's what? Supervisor Brandt-He's a professional engineer. He has a degree in professional engineering, he has a stamp and he does this kind of work so I think that's a criteria, that's a... Councilman Tucker-So, let me ask you a question. What happens, we ask these people for a proposal? Mr. Martin-Right, exactly. Councilman Tucker-Then what happens then? Mr. Martin-You go through the proposals and you choose on that basis. Councilman Tucker-They give their, the information ... Mr. Martin-Right, well I would draft a scope of services for the Board to consider and send that off and according to that scope, maybe you may want an interview session. Councilman Goetz-I don't see any problem with adding LA Consultants to the list because we're in the driver seat, don't we get to say who we can ask? Mr. Martin-Well, they're paying for it though. Councilman Monahan-Well, I just noticed that clause wasn't in here too and I think that clause should be in here that the developer's paying for the cost of this service. Supervisor Brandt-Having gone through this process, I think it's very important that the Developer has some say in it because he can be whole sale rape because I certainly have gone through it. Councilman Goetz-Well, how would you feel about LA Associates? Supervisor Brandt -Come on right up and talk to us, I think it's very important. Alan Oppenheim- Well, let me just comment on LA because the LA happens to be a group that we've worked alot with, the Michaels Group, have very good luck with. I think given the planning consultant that we're using for this project, Saratoga Associates, those guys are in the same Town, they're going head to head on a number of different things. Mr. Martin-They are well known direct competitors with one another. Mr. Oppenheim-So that you couldn't, I mean I think there's an issue with having two firms involved that are as competitive as those two firms. So, I just think there are enough other good firms out there that it doesn't make sense. I think LA is a very good firm, but I just think given the situation here, there are other firms out there to have on board. Supervisor Brandt-I'm right, aren't I in that the people that have submitted information to us, all have credentials, they're professionals and what we're doing here is we're hiring a professional to review their work. That's what I understand. Attorney O'Connor-it depends upon where you going. I think you need somebody that has alot of strength in SEQRA because that's the purpose of your review is to comply with the SEQRA law and the SEQRA procedure and I think of the four that have been mentioned, there are the strengths there that can comply with it. They may have to seek some outside consultants on some special issues if they identify issues during the process and maybe get their advice, the same as Saratoga Associates brought in a traffic engineer, they brought in an archeologist. They also brought in a person to look at the ecologies of the site. They are considered a well rounded planning and consulting firm but in house the did not have all those people on staff with the credentials that are generally accepted in the industry or in the profession, that they would try and put their endorsement and their stamp on the trades or the areas that they were concentrated on. So, I think basically you're looking for somebody here at this point to come on as, your review, chief if you will, they may have to retain other firms within the scope of their work if there is a need to do that. Supervisor Brandt -You expect that and you don't have any problem with that. Attorney O'Connor-No. Councilman Caimano-Do you have any trouble with the four names that were mentioned? Attorney O'Connor-No, we do not. And the issue which Mrs. Monahan raised as to payment, I think what we would like to do is do this step by step. At this point, your simply asking these firms to make a proposal to the Town which will not obligate the Town in any manner financially. Before the Town makes a commitment to them, the Developer is required to step forward and indicate either in writing or however Paul request it, that we will be responsible for reimbursing the Town for it's reasonable expenses. Mr. Martin-It's my understanding this is also only through scoping, right, at this point? Attorney O'Connor-That was my understanding of the resolution. Councilman Caimano-Correct. Attorney O'Connor-Because you may even end up with one firm that's going to develop the scoping session for SEQRA and then put it out if you think you need more advice or whatever to another request for services. The idea is try and keep some control so it is not a blank check that we simply are besieged with bills as we go along. Councilman Goetz-In your experience when you have the consultant, do they come up with the idea that they need outside experience or is the burden on us? Attorney O'Connor-1 think that's what they will do and I think that's part of their presentation to you. Attorney Dusek-Part of your professional people's job Sue, would be to let you know when something is outside the area of expertise. They're the expert and they'll know whether or not they can handle a given area. There's basically two ways to approach this type of situation. You can either hire one person or one small firm with not too much diversification, they in turn can bring people from the outside or you can attempt to hire a large firm that has everything in house. Those are obviously the two ways of doing it. The agreement part of it, I'll just mention real quick, that is something that I would see coming later because this resolution doesn't commit you to anything. It just simply asks for requests for proposals from the various firms that you have an interest in securing proposals from. Once that firm has been selected, at that point we would have an agreement with the firm, we would also have a reciprocal agreement with the Developer to pay the fees. At least that's the way we've done it in the past and if it get's broken apart, the scoping is one phase and then we go into a second phase, will have another agreement covering that. Mr. Martin-The other thing I would say is that, were just not simply going to say, you know write a short letter, hey guys, you want to come help the Town with a scoping session. I mean we're going to have a scope of services that frames in what their experiences are in certain areas of study and certain disciplines and you'll have a chance to review their qualifications or if they don't have anybody on staff, what is their answer to that question. Who are they going to consult with as a like a subcontractor or something of that nature to fill that void. Attorney O'Connor-I'm not trying to prejudge either the area or the focus of the scoping session but from what I understand, many of the comments that have been put in by Board members to the Planning Department at this time and even the comments that we heard when we went through the Part II, many of those questions from my perspective, appeared to be engineering in nature. Soil capacity, soil bearing and what not and of the firms that are mentioned, those firms have been well recognized and used by this Town Board and this Town for exactly those purposes. Supervisor Brandt-Okay. Councilman Monahan-And I have no problem with your timing as you say, when you get that commitment from the Developer and I agree with you Mike, I don't want to give anybody a blank check, believe me. Councilman Caimano-I'll go ahead and move it. Councilman Goetz-I'll second it. RESOLUTION REGARDING SCOPING SESSION CONCERNING HUDSON POINTE PUD RESOLUTION NO. 177,93 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. Nick Caimano WHO MOVED ITS ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mrs. Susan Goetz WHEREAS, the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury has required the preparation of an Environmental Impact Statement for the proposed Hudson Pointe PUD, and WHEREAS, the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury wishes to commence the process of preparation by conducting a scoping session, and WHEREAS, the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury believes that it should have the advice of an Engineer and/or Planning Consultant at this stage of the process, NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury authorizes the Executive Director of Planning and Zoning to: A. Contact the following Engineers/Planning Consultants: 1. Rist-Frost Associates, PC 2. Morse Engineering, PC 3. Haanen Engineering 4. Eugene Christian B. Supply each with a copy of this resolution and a required scope of services extending through the scoping session. C. Request, that each, if they are interested in participating in this scoping session, submit by March, 1993, a written proposal with a quotation of their fees for participating in this scoping session, or sessions if necessary, and preparation and submittal of a scoping document. D. The Town Executive Director should make clear to the Engineer/Planning Consultant that qualifications of the lands of Applicant for a PUD designation and the maximum density of the site are not issues to be examined in the scoping session and that completion of the scoping documents by that Engineer and or Consultant does not mean that the project shall go forward from that stage and, if the project does go forward, does not mean that the Engineer/Planning Consultant will be further retained by the Town. Duly adopted this 8th day of March, 1993, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Caimano, Mr. Tucker, Mrs. Monahan, Mrs. Goetz Mr. Brandt NOES: None ABSENT: None DISCUSSION AFTER VOTE: Attorney O'Connor-Mr. Brandt, did I understand the first motion to include two issues or one issue? Councilman Caimano-What are the two issues you thought were included? Attorney Dusek -One issues was... Supervisor Brandt-It's a PUD and it has a density. Attorney O'Connor-And density? Supervisor Brandt-That was, that's both in the resolution. Attorney O'Connor-They were both included, okay. Thank you very much. RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING MODIFICATIONS TO ELECTRICAL CONTRACT CONCERNING WATER TREATMENT PLANT RESOLUTION NO. 178, 93 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. Nick Caimano WHO MOVED ITS ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mr. Pliney Tucker WHEREAS, the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury previously authorized and approved the award of an electrical contract for the expansion of the Queensbury Water Treatment Plant, and WHEREAS, Rist-Frost Associates, P.c., has advised that a certain modification is necessary on the project which requires review and approval of the Town, NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby approves of the modification described in a letter dated December 15, 1992 from Rist-Frost Associates, P.c., and finds that the previously authorized amount for the project will not be exceeded by the changes, and BE IT FURTHER, RESOLVED, that the Town Supervisor is hereby authorized to execute, on behalf of the Town of Queensbury, any change orders or other documents that are necessary to accomplish the intent and purposes of this resolution. Duly adopted this 8th day of March, 1993, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Tucker, Mrs. Monahan, Mrs. Goetz, Mr. Caimano, Mr. Brandt NOES: None ABSENT: None DISCUSSION - SUBDIVISION APPLICATIONS - MR. MARTIN Mr. Martin-I gave you each a copy of some new applications I drafted for applications for subdivision of land taking a perspective applicant through each of the three phases. I would just like the Board's reaction before we press these into service, if there were any comments or anything. I made an effort to substantially shorten the paper that would be submitted, the length of the application and to ask for more information shown on the plat. I'm not removing any required items for submission, just generally I found that these things were typically shown on the plat anyhow and the longer that actual application itself is just, often times a waste of paper and effort on part of the applicant. Councilman Tucker-You're not monkeying around with our two lot subdivision as of yet, are you? Mr. Martin-No, I am not. Not at all and I've also added to this a brief introduction which attempts to help the applicant understand why they are doing this and associated them with the process and also a description of what each question is asking. Again, as much as we can, hold their hands through this process and make it for them as easiest possible. Supervisor Brandt-This is the material I gave to a Developer and he looked at and said it was great, except add something about dedication of roads. Mr. Martin-Right and I have those comments from last week and I will work into these. Councilman Goetz-They're very nice. The sketch plan question, description of any previous Town planning or zoning determinations, does the staff look into that or is the burden totally on the applicant? Mr. Martin-Often times, an applicant will have more knowledge then we would have or have access to knowledge that we wouldn't have if there has been any other action on the site. That's good background information in case there is a variance that may effect somehow a subdivision or vice-versa. Councilman Goetz-When we get computerized, is this going to be something that will come automatically? Mr. Martin-Right, the other thing that we're doing this week, is I'm sending everybody off to the Q & A Training Course which is our program for data base management, so we can get a data base written where we can track all information regarding a certain property by tax parcel number. When I say all information, I mean anything relating to a building permit, zoning, in terms of variance or planning, in terms of subdivision or site plan, so when we call up a certain tax parcel by it's number, we can get a history of everything that has happened on that property right on the screen. Councilman Goetz-Also under sketch plan, the part where a location map showing all the properties within five hundred feet. It sounds like the applicant has to do that or does the staff help? Mr. Martin-We help them and we'll supply them with all the information needed. We'll take them right through it, he has full use of our tax maps if he likes or she likes. But it's on the responsibility of the applicant ultimately at the preliminary stage to notify the people within five hundred feet of his or her property boundary to fulfill the notification requirement. Councilman Monahan-Do you verify those? Mr. Martin-Yes, they're done through certify mail and we take the return receipts. Councilman Monahan-Any place there, are they required to tell you what zone this property is in? Mr. Martin-Yes. Councilman Monahan-Also the fact that it's a critical environmental area because alot of people seem to miss that. Mr. Martin-Yea, they probably in all likelihood, wouldn't catch that one and we try to catch that in the office and often times we do. Councilman Monahan-I would like to see that as a question. The other thing, was a question on the old application and maybe it's on the plat and you don't need it, but the question if they're adjacent to any County roads, that kicks it up to Warren County Planning Board. Does that show on the plat that those are County roads? Otherwise, I think you need to make these people aware of the fact that if they are adjacent, and you may not catch that so they really almost have to tell you. Mr. Martin-Well again, that's something that's done as a matter of standard procedure because there's so many County roads and so much County property in the Town, that I would say in eight often cases, we refer things onto the County because it trips that requirement. So as a matter of our review, we do that as standard procedure. I'll be coming back to you with variance applications and site plan review applications. DISCUSSION - WATER TREATMENT PLANT EXPANSION Supervisor Brandt-We spent Saturday discussing the Water Treatment Plant, looking at two plans for Water Treatment Plant expansion and I would like to start moving towards choosing an engineer and accepting a plan and directing the work to commence so that we can go to public hearings on the necessary expansion. RESOLUTION HIRING KESTNER ENGINEER RESOLUTION NO. 179,93 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. Michel Brandt I'd like to move that we hire Kestner Engineering as our engineer to build the plan that he submitted which was in the amount of six million dollars to take the plant capacity to ten million gallons per day and commence the work. So I'm going to offer it as a motion. I don't know if we have to find any legalese to, do I need legalese to make that motion? Attorney Dusek-Well, I think the next step is to decide which engineering firm you want to go to and then the motion would be to instruct the engineer to prepare a map, plan and report or final map, plan and report to go to public hearing with the help of the Town Attorney. That would be, so your motion would be to pick one engineer and then say, okay engineer work with the Town Attorney to get the final map, plan and report together for the public hearing. Councilman Caimano-Before we even get to there, I understood, sitting here next to you on Saturday that we would, we meaning all of us, would get together this week and have a discussion as to what we were settling on for what we were going to bid on first of all. We seemed to have gotten to that point Saturday but we haven't sat down as a Board and talked about and I, it was my understanding we were going to do just that. I don't have any trouble with doing that, I think that as I've said and somebody asked them, I think it's perfectly legitimate to go on and rebid this thing based upon what we set as the criterion to be bid upon. I have no brief for O'Brien and Gere but on the other hand, I think we should open it up to anybody who is qualified to look at the Water Treatment Plant. But my understanding when we left here Saturday after that lengthy meeting, was that this Board would get back together again and discuss that. Supervisor Brandt-We're back together and that's the purpose of my discussion and I put a motion on the table so that we have something to discuss. So, I'm making that as a motion. Councilman Tucker-I'll second it so we can talk about it. SECONDED BY: Mr. Pliney Tucker Supervisor Brandt-Okay, we're talking. Councilman Monahan-Well obviously, you know, just, as far as O'Brien and Gere is concerned and you know, not even considering any other engineering firms that might be interested in, I'm a little uncomfortable doing this in Kestner's direction as a Town Board because we don't even have comparable figures from one other firm. The figures from O'Brien and Gere are not comparable because they were talking about different water customers, different areas to be serviced and etcetera. So, I think we have to decide what we want and let whatever engineering firms we pick, put in a price on that before we go any further or else it looks to me like we're just handing this to Kestner as a bennie. Supervisor Brandt-That's interesting you would say that because I remember you asking about a month ago in a meeting that we go ahead and move and accept O'Brien and Gere's report which was for a plant of eleven point five million gallons at a cost of twelve point five million dollars. And then I suggested we get Kestner to give us an update on those reports and ask for a resolution to hire him for that and put up three thousand dollars for that and you voted against that but we did pass it and now he comes in with a figure of six million dollars, a saving of six point five million dollars and I want to move it. I want... Councilman Caimano-Well, we don't, we only know that that's his opinion. What I think what Betty is saying, is that at the very least, let's take Kestner's numbers if that's what we all decide on, and let's get at least two bids if not three bids and find out if everybody feels the same way. This is only his opinion. We have ... Supervisor Brandt-This is a proposal with fixed, with costs that he's ... Councilman Caimano-Well, but anybody can put a proposal on, it's his opinion ... Supervisor Brandt-It's not an opinion. Councilman Caimano-Well, it's his opinion. Supervisor Brandt-Well, now wait a minute, it's a proposal with hard figures that he says, for this money he will do this job. Councilman Caimano- That's correct but it's his opinion, but it's his opinion that that's all that needs to be done. Maybe he's doing too much too. How do we know that? I'm not suggesting, don't get me wrong here, I'm not suggesting we take O'Brien and Gere, I'm suggesting we settle, if we're going to settle on a ten million gallon a day plant, that we go out and bid this thing as a ten million gallon a day plant. If Kestner is going to be one of the bidders, all fine and dandy. All I'm suggesting is, the criterion is set and that we all go out to get equal bids. Taking Kestner's report is just as bad as taking O'Brien and Gere's report, we have no idea if it's right. Councilman Monahan-And we talk about the same distribution system, you know and the whole thing so to make sure, as I also said Mike Saturday, that we're comparing apples and apples. And I'm not, you know, I want to make sure that we're comparing apples and apples. Supervisor Brandt-But what do we mean, comparing apples and apples? What on earth are you talking about? Councilman Monahan-Obviously ... Supervisor Brandt-Put that in english. Councilman Monahan-Obviously ... Supervisor Brandt-I think we're comparing water plant and water plant. Councilman Monahan-Obviously the report from O'Brien and Gere, to use that specific report, was not based on the same premises or probably the premise that they would base it today because that's when we talked about serving alot greater number of customers. And so their figures may not even be applicable to what is today. I think we have to give these people finite directions as to the customers, the areas that are going to be served in this Town, any changes we want. They both had different ideas on design. I just think that we need to get an apples and apples comparison, not only from them but from some other engineers, we're talking about a whole different project then we were talking about before. Councilman Tucker-You're talking, it appears to me about a million and a half difference in gallons produced. Councilman Monahan-Because ... Councilman Tucker-Kestner was going to produce, or not Kestner but O'Brien and Gere was going to produce eleven five, a eleven and half million gallons of water and it was going to cost us twelve million, five hundred thousand dollars to have them to produce that. This gentleman is going to produce ten million gallons of water and it's going to cost us six million. Councilman Monahan-Pliney, I hate to bring this up but he also on the sewer gave us a price and we had a thirty percent cost overrun. Mr. Dick Palmer-Can I, is this open? Supervisor Brandt-We can ... Councilman Caimano- Well, he had his hand up first but go ahead. Mr. Palmer-Well, is it open? Supervisor Brandt -Yea, I can open it and I'd be glad to I think, sure. Mr. Palmer-I just would like to comment. Councilman Caimano-Put your name on the record, Dick, please. Mr. Palmer-Oh, sure. Mr. Tom Philo-Mike, we have .... Councilman Caimano- Wait, one at a time though. Mr. Philo-Excuse me, we're part of this group, the Supervisor's Advisory Committee that you picked, there's six men on it and we have a couple engineers here that would like to make a statement along with Dick. Is it alright if we all come up ... ? Supervisor Brandt -Sure, I've asked a group of people to advise me on this and they've been working on it for a period of time. Sure, come on up. Mr. Palmer-Well, right now Mike, my name is Dick Palmer. I live in Queensbury, I'm in the sewer district that was in discussion. I did alot of work on that. I was not happy. I was told by the previous Board, I'm not talking as a member of this Board, I'm talking as an individual, to address one specific thing that Betty mentioned. And that was that Kestner come up with a thirty percent overrun. My first question to this Town Board, the previous Town Board was, why do we have this overrun? And I was told basically it was none of my business, that if I had been here to all of the Board meetings, I would know. I did some research and it was not because Kestner had a thirty percent overrun. There was so much involved in that and Betty I made a full report and I believe you read the report, so how you can come out and say that, that statement, that this man had a thirty percent overrun, is very difficult for me to swallow or listen to. And I really wish that this type of thing would not be thrown out. I would like to see that our community and our Town is run on the basis of what is good for the community and not for any individual. And I think that every one of you has been put onto this Board to do that. We're working as a Board right now. I will, I'll leave that at that point but I would be very happy to discuss it and give my figures on it. But that's not a fair statement. I am part of this Board ... Councilman Monahan-Well Dick, I just want to ... Mr. Palmer-I'm talking please. I'm part of this Board and at this point ... Councilman Monahan-No, I just wanted to ask you one question. Mr. Palmer-At this point, I will finish with my statement as far as sticking Kestner into a position, we're saying he did something wrong or implying it. Let me put it that way. I don't care for that and I don't think it's right. It should not be done. You have some facts, I presented to you with facts Betty, you voted, you voted and you were on the Board that said we will get four hundred and eighty thousand dollars from the Hiland Park Association, you were on the Board that agreed to settle for a hundred and nineteen thousand dollars that cost everyone in this community alot of dollars. I was not happy with that. You agreed next and you changed your opinion on it or something, but that is wrong. That is wrong. Supervisor Brandt-Well, let's talk about the water ... Councilman Caimano-Yea, let's talk about the water ... Supervisor Brandt-And not the sewer. Councilman Caimano-And let's talk about something you just said. Mr. Palmer-Well, she brought up the sewer ... Supervisor Brandt-I know and I don't think it has any bearing on this. Mr. Palmer-And it's thirty percent over ... Councilman Caimano-Fine, fine, fine ... Mr. Palmer-I answered it ... Councilman Caimano-Let's stop going over the past. Mr. Palmer-I am not, I am not ... Councilman Caimano-Let's stop going over the past and let's go to the future. Mr. Palmer-Excuse me. Councilman Caimano- Y ou made a statement, you made a statement... Mr. Palmer-She brought up the past, pardon me and I answered ... Councilman Caimano-It's all over Dick, it's all over. You had your answer, it's allover. Mr. Palmer-Okay, now this ... Councilman Caimano-Now let's talk about the future. Mr. Palmer-This is the committee that would like to discuss what we have been studying and reading about as far as a water and the water supply for the Town of Queensbury and what is necessary. Tom Philo is the chairman of our committee and I'm sure he'll be very happy to address you. Councilman Caimano- Y ea but just let me ask you... Mr. Palmer-And I will answer any questions that you might have. Councilman Caimano-Let me just say one thing, you said something that hit my heart and it's true, we should be looking for what's best for the community. So when I say to you that I don't want to take a single thing, a single bid, that's what I'm doing. I want to say, we need a ten million a gallon day plant and I want to get three bids on it. That's all I'm saying. Mr. Palmer-Allow me to answer that, you just made another statement. I was at a meeting not too long ago, that you said, that you believe that we ought to move on this right away, that if we start on the Spring of this year, there is no way that we will have a drop of water before 1995. Councilman Caimano-Right. Mr. Palmer-Ms. Monahan said, I move, I suggest that we jump in and go for it. Councilman Caimano- Yes, but if your suggesting that... Mr. Palmer-And this was on a... Councilman Caimano- That I move for O'Brien, no I'll talk, if your suggesting that I moved to go to O'Brien and Gere, your wrong. What I said, if you go back to the minutes and the minutes are certainly on the record is, I want to move as you are doing and as the Supervisor is doing, move this process along. That was all I said. I didn't ask and by the way, your right, I did make those statements, because that's what was told me at the time. So, I'm wrong. So, let's go on from there. Mr. Palmer-Okay and that's what we would like to do here ... what we would like to do ... Councilman Caimano-Ifwe can get water within that, inside the time frame, I'll be happy. Mr. Palmer-What, pardon me? Councilman Caimano-Ifwe can get water inside, additional water inside that time frame, I'll be happy. Mr. Palmer-Well, I think that's what we should look at ... Councilman Caimano-And I don't care if you do it with a divining rod. Mr. Palmer-That's what we should look at. Supervisor Brandt-This proposal says that we will have increase capacity before the end of next year. Councilman Caimano-Fine. Supervisor Brandt-And we'll have total capacity by December of 95 or 94. Councilman Caimano-Fine, fine and that's wonderful. All I'm suggesting is ... Supervisor Brandt -So that's way ahead of schedule and enormously cheaper. Councilman Caimano-Fine, all I'm suggesting, one more time is that if we have decided that ten million gallons a day or whatever this number is, is the right answer, then we can not in good conscience for the Town, accept simply one bid. We have to go out and find out if anybody else can do the job as fast, as cheap or better. That's all I'm saying and I'm not even suggesting it's O'Brien and Gere, it could be Joe Schmoe or anybody with a divining rod. I'm suggesting, you can't take one bid and spend eight, six, ten, twelve, whatever million dollars there is, if we're going to do the job right for the Town. That's my only comment. Supervisor Brandt-Right and I want to point out that under the law so that it's not, there's no implication that we can't do that, we can do that. Councilman Caimano- We can. Supervisor Brandt-Yes, okay so that's Councilman Caimano-Ifthere was an emergency, we could. Supervisor Brandt-So it's clearly represented, you're going for professional services. Clearly, this firm designed and built that plant. Clearly, none of us knew until I brought it forth that, at least none of us on the new Board here knew that they had recommended in the past to do only a five million gallon expansion, to a five million gallon plant. And there was resistance to hiring them to find that out and we did, we pushed that resolution through, we did find that out. Up until that point out, we weren't even told by our own Water Department that those kind of options were available. Now the Board members have found that out, we brought it forth and the option can save us six and a half million dollars, say nothing of transmission costs if we went the other way. I'd like to get on with it. Mr. Philo-Is it okay if we talk now? Supervisor Brandt -Yes. Mr. Philo-This committee was composed to try to save and look at everything, public utilities within our Town and give Mike the honest answers of what our expertise has. This man to my left, Hans, how do you pronounce that correctly, Hans? Mr. Hans Hoenck-You did. Mr. Philo-Okay, Dick Palmer. Dick is in the Business. This man is in the, is a businessman. I worked on that plant at the Water Treatment Plant for MLB. That concrete slab that we said, that's a two foot slab down there and this engineering, I mean I've heard engineers talk but is there a maybe leak, a leak maybe or what. I never interpreted what really, what the man was. It's either leaking or it's not. He said in that two foot slab there was a crack. He gave us some variables and if that was cracked, with number 78 rebar in that bottom. Hans, agree with me or disagree? Number 7, at a grid of 6, that 7th bar means 7/8ths bar. Four thousand pound concrete and they were, the, just the whole concept, the way they were putting it to us. They act as if they were winging it. Now if I talk to a professional man, as this Attorney and he gives me an answer, I respect him because he gave me an answer. But if I knew something about law and he gave me an answer I didn't feel I was comfortable with, I start questioning things. And this committee has been looking at this for a long time. Not only his matter when he stood up there and told us that he was, twelve million. What was the exact figure Dick? Mr. Palmer-Well, the recommended gallonage? Mr. Philo-Yes and price. Mr. Palmer-Well, eleven point two five and then move up to fifteen gallon with a price of twelve million five hundred thousand dollars and then for an extra five million gallons, that we could do an extra five million gallons for two hundred and fifty thousand dollars. Now, I think that any of us will agree that a five million increase in capacity, it's real difficult to do for two hundred and fifty thousand dollars. The things that I looked at and we looked at, was eleven point two five million gallons, was the recommendation and I think that this is what the Board perhaps hired or was looking for these people to do, to take all the knowledge that they had and come up with information as to what this Town needed and should do. And they came up with eleven point two five million gallons. None of the figures that they've had really justified that and they did have all the information. The eleven point two five gallons could not be distributed throughout our system because we have a nine million dollar, nine million gallon capacity of distribution. So, when we get a figure of twelve million, five hundred thousand dollars, let's add their figure that was in the back of seven million, eight hundred thousand dollars. So, now we're looking at about a twenty-three million dollar plant and this is what it would cost us because if we make eleven two five or fifteen million and we can't distribute it, what have we got? So, we're looking at twenty-three million dollars. Now, my question is and some of the things, as Tom mentioned, when a man stands up in front of me and says that you have a crack in your clear well, my mind went bizurke, my goodness, how could we have this. I don't, from what I've learned since then, I don't believe that it could be. I just don't believe that it could be and either do they and I believe it was described as a non-leak leak and that, that amazes me because I can't understand it. I can't understand it. But they were giving me information and I'm listening to now, that perhaps we're talking apples and oranges. Well, let's take the apples of Glens Falls. Is this something that all of sudden came back, came about in fifteen or twenty minutes of a discussion in front of a group. O'Brien and Gere knew this, as Kestner did. Glens Falls can't afford to buy water from us. That was something that came out of the sky. But I would question so much when I'm looking at an hour or a half an hour, an organization that can agree that our eleven point two five million gallons is perhaps not right and that the ten million gallons in the year 2020 perhaps is right and come down, six and seven to me is between, somewhere around thirteen million dollars. And we're the people that are going to pay it. I don't want to pay it. I'm paying for a sewer right now that I think, if it was properly looked at and spend some time, perhaps had a committee like us to get in there and look at it and maybe see things you folks don't have time to do that. Now, I can do it because it's one thing, I'm not running the Town. But I am looking at some of these things individually and have a little bit of knowledge about it. I'm trying to pass that on to you, as we all are. I don't think I'm, anybody is disagreeing with me at all. But, I'm sorry Tom. Mr. Philo-No, that's fine, I asked you the question, you answered it. Supervisor Brandt-I want, go ahead. Mr. Philo-Within a matter, this was the biggest show-boat I've ever saw in my life, as far as a bid. When you put something up for bid and they come in and make their proposal, you don't get somebody to change it afterwards and say, oh, I'm sorry. I didn't bid it right. That man dropped his bid within six minutes, six million dollars. If I was in the construction business and I dropped a bid six million dollars, brother there's, everybody look at me and call me a danm fool. Councilman Caimano-Well, I didn't hear him drop any dollars, all he dropped was amount. I didn't hear him drop any dollars. All I heard him drop, all I heard him say was that he agreed to the ten million. Mr. Philo-Excuse me, am I right or wrong? Councilman Caimano-I didn't hear him drop any dollars. Mr. Palmer-No, no I didn't. I agree with you I can't remember any dollars. Councilman Caimano-He never said any, he never did say any... Mr. Palmer-I can't remember him mentioning dollars. Supervisor Brandt-I don't think he said dollars. Mr. Palmer-But if you still got that nickel you flipped, I would be very happy to bet you, that if we were to go back, that O'Brien and Gere would come in at less than six million dollars. Councilman Caimano-I would be willing to make that bid because I think what they would do, I think, my opinion is and that's all this is, is an opinion because I don't talk to the man ... Mr. Palmer-So is ours, so is ours. Councilman Caimano-My opinion is, that they will still be adamant about changes that they think they should make and their bid will be higher than Kestners. That's what I think. Mr. Palmer-Again, the changes ... Councilman Caimano- That's only a thought. Mr. Palmer-The changes, I think no matter who engineers it, will have to be made. These were proposals and these were gallonagers and I believe O'Brien and Gere without any doubt, in fact I have one of the newspaper clippings that claims, that shows that they recommended that the Town go ahead with an expansion that would increase the plant's capacity from three point seven five million gallons per day to fifteen million gallons a day. Supervisor Brandt-That's right. Mr. Palmer-That was their recommendation. Councilman Caimano-But. Supervisor Brandt -Yea it was. Mr. Palmer-Now, the other organization with the same information has recommended and has been recommending since 1986, they have been recommending a five million gallon increase and the capacity the plant was designed as to expand in five million gallon ... Supervisor Brandt-Increments. Mr. Palmer-Increments or ... Councilman Caimano-But it isn't there and we know that now. Mr. Palmer-Pardon me. Councilman Caimano-It isn't there, the State has rated it three point seven five, not five. Mr. Palmer-I beg to differ with that. The thing that's not there, the intakes are based on fifteen million gallons. Mr. Philo-That's right. Mr. Palmer-Because this is where they were going to. The design... Supervisor Brandt-But the plant actually has produced Councilman Caimano-Seven million. Supervisor Brandt-Seven million gallons ... Councilman Caimano-Right. Supervisor Brandt-It's rated at three but maybe it's under rated. Mr. Palmer-But that is not ... Supervisor Brandt-If it's produces seven, it produces six all the time ... Mr. Palmer-Again, it's not pumping capacity. Again, in 19, I believe it was, it was somewhere between 86 and 89, the proposal was made to the Town Board to put in, I believe more filters or sludge bed, I believe it was a sludge bed and I think you have all those figures Betty. That it was recommended that a sludge bed be put in and it was requested and that's where I feel that, when the Town Board doesn't have full information and they put in, they'll spend eight hundred thousand dollars on a building prior to getting the equipment that was needed, it's been said, we need this, we need this, we've got to have it right away. So, we, why spend the money at some place else, when you know this. And this is what the recommendation was by the other engineers. The Kestner people came in and they were asked the same question. To give you a recommendation and they recommended a ten million gallon a day and all the reasons. And O'Brien and Gere came out with these figures and at the end of their figures they said at the year of 20 15, that the Town of Queensbury will be using four point fourteen million gallons a day. Councilman Caimano-Okay. Well, you are sitting there looking at me and you're talking to me, and let me make very clear two things and Mike knows this. First of all, as far as the infamous eight hundred thousand dollars figure for the building, I am on record, I stood side by side and I asked also that it not be spent. It was too my way of thinking at this stage of the game, short of a lawsuit, there's nothing we're going to do, that's not going to help us in deciding whether we're going to increase our... we still have to increase the gallonage, that's number one. Mr. Palmer-It should help you ... Councilman Caimano-Number two, is the fact that I'm not arguing here and I'm holding no brief for O'Brien and Gere and I'll say it again, or anybody with a divining rod, I'm suggesting to you that we have, we have a report that says we ought to do x and the prudent thing to do is to have at least one other known expert in the field, also put his or her opinion in there. That's what I'm saying. Mr. Palmer-Nick, I guess I question this ... Supervisor Brandt-How come we didn't do that to start with? Councilman Caimano- W e did. Mr. Palmer-Nick, I guess I ... Supervisor Brandt-Now wait a minute, when I asked that we do one other, you opposed it. Councilman Caimano-Oh, no, no, no, no ... Supervisor Brandt-Oh wait a minute ... Councilman Caimano- I didn't oppose... Mr. Palmer-You said no. Councilman Caimano-Just a second. Supervisor Brandt-That's a vote of record. Councilman Caimano-Just a second. Supervisor Brandt-That's a vote of record. Councilman Caimano-Just a second, it is not a vote of record. I objected to the paying of the money, I didn't object to the report. Supervisor Brandt -You going, you are going to have people come... Councilman Caimano-And I still object to the ... Supervisor Brandt-And give us something for nothing? Councilman Caimano-Mike, come on now. Supervisor Brandt-Now, come on Nick Caimano ... Councilman Caimano-No, dammit. Supervisor Brandt-You just said ... Councilman Caimano- Y ou said you were going to upgrade Kestner's report and I said, I don't want to spend three thousand dollars to do it, that's all. Supervisor Brandt-But we paid a hundred and sixty-four thousand to O'Brien and Gere. That's alright ... Councilman Caimano-And you paid a million ... Supervisor Brandt-And when we asked ... Councilman Caimano- Y ou paid a million three hundred thousand to Kestner on the sewer district too, so what. Supervisor Brandt-And when, now wait a minute, that has nothing to do with the sewer district. Mr. Palmer-You are bringing up, you just asked me not to do that, Nick, why do you do that? Councilman Caimano-Do what? Supervisor Brandt-Now wait a minute ... Mr. Palmer-Not to bring up ... Councilman Caimano-First of all ... Supervisor Brandt-Hang on ... Councilman Caimano-I'm not going to argue with both of you. Supervisor Brandt-By Jesus, I've got the floor and I've got the meeting. Councilman Caimano- Typical. Supervisor Brandt-That's right, it's typical, I'm taking the meeting over and we're going to talk one at a time. Councilman Caimano-Okay, let's go back to square one, I did not object to Kestner upgrading the report. I objected to the three thousand dollars. It's a matter of record. Supervisor Brandt-That's correct. Councilman Caimano- That's all I objected to. Supervisor Brandt -Okay and now you want to hire other engineers. Councilman Caimano-I don't want to hire anybody. I want to have this, you have decided and the three of you have decided apparently that ... Supervisor Brandt-Wait a minute, the three of who? Councilman Goetz-What do you ... Councilman Caimano-Apparently ... Councilman Goetz-You're making assumptions that you don't know about. Councilman Caimano-Oh, I just thought the three of you have decided. The three of you... Councilman Goetz-Oh, have, do you? Councilman Caimano- Yes, I did. Mr. Philo-That's not right Mike. Supervisor Brandt-Well, we can decide if you want to try and decide that's ... Councilman Caimano-Fine, then go ahead and decide. My point is that you have decided apparently... Mr. Philo-That's a legal case. Councilman Caimano- That we're going to go with ten million gallons a day. Fine, let's have at least one other bid. Supervisor Brandt-No, this Board must make that decision and I put a resolution on the floor to go with a proposal that's in front of us ... Councilman Caimano-Regardless of whether that proposal is correct or not? Supervisor Brandt-What do you mean whether it's correct or not? Councilman Caimano-How do you know... Supervisor Brandt-What are you ... Councilman Caimano-And the engineers out there understand what I'm, how do you know that that is the answer? Supervisor Brandt-What do you mean, what is the answer? Councilman Caimano-Are you sure Hans? Mr. Hoenck-Let me pre-phrase my statement saying that I am the most recent addition to the group here, okay. Councilman Caimano- Yes. Mr. Hoenck-I don't have all the facts in my mind that I would like to have. Councilman Caimano- Alright. Mr. Hoenck-And actually the engineering study that was presented here Saturday was the first time that I really got an overall view of the situation. And I have to say my instinctive reaction to the two presentations that were made was one that was favorable to Kestner. Councilman Caimano-Okay. Mr. Hoenck -The other presentation that was made in the long winded fashion, was a very confusing one. Whether that was the intent or not, I'm not going to be the judge of it. And I got the feeling when everything was done, that I needed to do a little bit more homework and I started to do it and I asked, let's go to the Treatment Plant and see it. Councilman Caimano-Right. Mr. Hoenck-And I was impressed. I don't want to dwell on any issue but the operation of the plant and the capacity, and I am very proud that the Town has a very good treatment and delivery system as it is but we also need more than what we have and I got the feeling from Saturday's presentation, the ball park figure would be around ten million gallons a day. Councilman Caimano- That's what I thought too, right. Mr. Hoenck-There's minimum investment in additional equipment needed and the Kestner proposal indicated to me it would come in around six million dollars. I am correct? Supervisor Brandt -Correct. Councilman Caimano-About six million dollars for what they propose, right. Mr. Hoenck-Right, now when I go through the proposal of the other firm, I can't find any proposal that comes close to this ten million gallons per day that would zero in on six million dollars. Councilman Caimano- That's correct. Mr. Hoenck-The closest one I see is twelve and a half million dollars. Supervisor Brandt-Right. Mr. Hoenck-Now let me tell you, I'm not a Mechanical Engineer but I'm a Chemical Engineer by background, an accountant and I have undertaken many capital projects for Scott Paper's Company, large capital projects that were basically up to my judgement with support from engineering and technique groups and accountants. And I have to say that I was impressed that we had such a wide discrepancy between the two proposals, one of them coming close to six million dollars, the other twelve and a half. Since this obviously was the only one that officially was on the table, this leaves me with a little concern as to the integrity of that proposal. Councilman Caimano-And what would, but since you have this wide variance and knowing the background that you have and I do know the background that you have, what would that suggest to you that we should do next? Mr. Hoenck-Well, I haven't quite come to that conclusion, yet, okay. But let me go a little bit beyond this. I want to make sure as part of the group here that is advising the Board, Michel as the Supervisor and you as members of the Board, that we're doing the best job for the Township. Councilman Caimano-Sure. Mr. Hoenck-We're all taxpayers, we're all in the same boat and I want to make sure that whatever we do in the addition to this plant, will be for the obvious benefit of the Town and the taxpayer. Councilman Caimano-Okay. Mr. Hoenck-And you in particular, since you are elected, you are the trustees of these taxes that are being paid by at least five thousand four hundred households that are listed as consumers from our water system. This is a very serious responsibility and we should make sure that we have all the ... Councilman Caimano-Facts. Mr. Hoenck-Questions and facts necessary to make a judgement how we should go. Councilman Caimano- That's correct. Mr. Hoenck-Now, I was very much concerned about all the publicity that was given that Town's adjacent to ours' were looking for water, etcetera, etcetera and I was very much relieved that we don't have to give any serious consideration to any of these requests because either they can't see their way financially to follow up on it or they feel they have another way out. I just hope that this Township will not entertain any proposal that we have to pay for as taxpayers here and then, let's say whether it be Glens Falls or Hudson Falls or Lake George, if they feel they want to participate, let's make sure they pay their share of the need expansion and let it not be the cost of the taxpayer here in Queensbury. Councilman Caimano-Okay. Supervisor Brandt-And that includes the transmission costs. Mr. Hoenck-Absolutely. Mr. Philo-And that's what we all decided on. Supervisor Brandt -And when you looked at the cost of transmission lines to the City of Glens Falls, the transmission line was so expensive that it was more cost effective for the City to build their own plant. Mr. Hoenck-Absolutely. Supervisor Brandt-And when you go to the Town of Moreau probably, if there's any amount of consumption, the same thing happens and the further you go the worst it gets. The other thing that impressed me is that in 1987, this Town hired Kestner, Kestner told them a five million gallon plant expansion for five million, two hundred thousand. In 1988, same thing, the plant was restudied and the cost was five million, eight hundred thousand. Later in 88, another report was made by this Town by Kestner. Same figure, five million eight hundred thousand for the same thing. In 89, again, the same thing. Now we go back in 93 and we ask them to update and they come in at six million dollars. I think that's very reasonable looking at the history with these studies. And from my view point, I want to start looking as a Town Board, not on infinitely bidding this plant but looking at cost savings on the operation of that department. Because at six million dollars, we've got to float a bond, that service probably our share even if we work with other Towns is going to be in the neighborhood of a half million dollars a year debt service, even while our other bonds are being paid down, this would come on line. So, we've got to find some savings if we don't want to increase taxes and I don't want to increase taxes. That means we've got to find ways of cutting our costs of operation close to a half a million if it's possible. I don't know that it's possible, but that's why I want to concentrate my efforts and the efforts of this Board looking at to see what we can do. And I don't want to spend forever working on this thing. I am shocked that our own Water Department didn't tell us as a Board that these other proposals had been made and didn't make them, put them under our nose, but they didn't. And so, we were asked to make a decision with one proposal and we as a Board asked for another proposal, now we got it. Mr. Al Oudekerk-I'lljust say a few things. Number one, I've been away for the last three weeks, I arrived home this afternoon, so I've got alot of, more homework to catch up on. I did visit some of the other plants and I've been very impressed with our plant but there's alot of homework to be done. And really to make any snap decision on any of these things, there's alot more research that has to be done into it. Now, with the group that we've been working with, they've all shown alot of interest and I'm sure that there's going to be some good answers but to come up with a firm answer tonight, I don't think it's possible. Councilman Caimano-Okay, some had a question back there. Mr. Tim Brewer-The only thing I would like to know is, why is there opposition about, I don't know how long it would take for another bid but, hypothetically if we put out for another bid and it saves the taxpayers another half a million dollars, be best to our benefit? Councilman Caimano-And we have the group to do it. Councilman Monahan-Well, it seems to me that these gentleman ... Mr. Brewer-I mean after such a discrepancy, twelve million and five million, I've bid things in business and usually, there's not that big of a difference and I don't know what exactly the other firm is doing that you're talking about Mike but if ... Supervisor Brandt-We spent the whole day talking that out. Mr. Brewer-I understand that but I'm a taxpayer and if they're saving us seven million, if we put it out to bid and somebody saves us another half a million or a million, why not do it? I don't know how long it takes for another bid. That's all I'm asking. Councilman Tucker-The savings is thirteen million. Mr. Philo-That's what we've said. Councilman Tucker-I mean the original plant, if we built the original plant at what they said to build it, we had to do alot of transmission work on the lines and what have you to get the water from the plant to wherever it was supposed to go. I got a legal question for Paul. Mr. Brewer-I didn't get an answer, wait a minute, I'd like to get an answer if I could. Supervisor Brandt-Well, the answer of course is that we can and we can do that infinitely. Mr. Brewer-I understand that but if we put it up for three bids or open bid for a certain period of time, for a month, a week, two weeks, whatever it takes, a reasonable amount of time ... Supervisor Brandt-There's also a question that, once you go and you ask for bids, now you've got one on the table so everybody can read theirs' until all you got to do is trim it down so you beat that bid. That's not Mr. Brewer-It doesn't necessarily mean you have to take it though. Supervisor Brandt-That's not totally ethical either. Councilman Caimano-No, but I'm not, I wouldn't suggest that you do that. Supervisor Brandt-So what we did ... Mr. John Salvador-If you can get a half million dollar savings, you would be foolish not to take it. Mr. Brewer-Right. Mr. Salvador-Well, Mike is saying, all he's going to do is ... Mr. Brewer-Why wasn't it put out to three people? I guess is what my question is. Mr. Hoenck-Well, that's a very serious question. Why wasn't it given to ... ? Councilman Caimano-I don't know the answer to that and you know and you know as well as I do that we could, especially you acting as our committee if you chose to do so, could put a series of specs based upon what you see here, if you accept those as gospel, without giving away, at all, what that price is. Supervisor Brandt-I'm not sure that they're spec writers. Mr. Hoenck-No, we're not spec writers. Councilman Caimano-No, I understand that. Mr. Philo-Did you have a legal question you said you wanted to ask? Councilman Tucker-Yea, I wanted to ask the Attorney. Do we as a Board have any right to obligate the taxpayer to build more than they actually need for the services required? Attorney Dusek-There is a section under the Town law which allows the Board to buy into or build excess facilities. It's a special procedure, you would have to follow that but that is available. How much excess would depend in large part upon circumstances as to what your going to do with it, what your future plans are. You have to have a justification in place but there is, although a limited amount of access, there is a provision specifically designed for that under Town law. Councilman Monahan-Mr. Hoenck, after listening to that presentation Saturday, I noticed two things where the engineers particularly didn't seem to agree. One was whether or not we should have an extra clear well and the other one was the placement of the filter beds. Have you drawn any conclusions? Mr. Hoenck-No, I can't say that I have Betty. Councilman Monahan-But isn't that something we should study very carefully before we get too far down the pike? Mr. Philo-Well we, the rest of the committee has looked at it. Mr. Hoenck-Well, they know, I haven't been that close as I indicated in my pre-statement. You know, I can't really specifically make a judgement on that. I don't, in my mind have the background for it. Somebody else in this group might have... Mr. Palmer-What was the question about the clear well? Councilman Monahan-One of the two big differences I picked up in the recommendation was whether or not we should have another clear well and the placement of the filter beds. And I have no expertise to that field and I just wondered if any of you gentleman had reached a conclusion. Mr. Palmer-Some of the questions that came up about that, kind of indicated that the clear well sounds like, what we got one big hole in the ground that holds eight hundred, a million gallons supposedly but eight hundred and sixty thousand gallons are usable. I guess it's actually into compartments and what have you, but part of the thing that I read into that, was that if you were to put in a different level, then you change the pumping situation. And it didn't indicate that you could continue perhaps using the same pumps and put another one in at the same place. Now, I guess that actually you can do that without a problem because of the piping and the way you pipe to these pumps anyway. And that, there was some question about, there was a number of questions that are really... Councilman Monahan-Yea, one of the questions I think was whether or not that clear well could get contaminated some way and what would we use as back up? Mr. Palmer-Well, see even with the, the new proposals that's indicating another clear well of course, it's not putting one complete clear well. There was some questions about, what if we should go down and all this and there was alot of things that I think, I don't know, when I hear something about a guy falling in a clear well or a bucket of paint going into it, that's such a highly ... Councilman Monahan-No, that part didn't concern me but I think there is a chance of some kind of contamination happening. Mr. Palmer-Sure but all of these things and these engineers, they just, they really know what they're doing. O'Brien and Gere has been around for a long time. They've been doing many, many, many water treatment plants. Kestner has been doing many, many, many water treatment plants, that's there expertise, that's what they do. We do have a water plant that's been excellent for seventeen years. Councilman Monahan-Absolutely. Mr. Palmer-Fantastic water. The questions that were brought up like this, I think kind of tend to misdirect us into, wait a second, do we have a safe operation or not and I think that they... Councilman Monahan-Oh no, I don't think there's a question of that. Mr. Palmer-Will the safety as far as dropping and not having water for the community. I don't think there's really a question on that. The second of it, if you look into it, I believe they were talking about the level, lower the level. And when you look at that and get into it, completely, which must be looked at, of course. And I don't feel for one minute that the six million, six point six million, six point three, whatever was proposed is going to be the final figure but I do feel that what they are proposing in the numbers of gallons and the availability for all the water that the fire department is ever going to need, these types of things have been addressed and they are answered. Councilman Monahan-I don't think anybody is too concerned that ten million gallons, given the amount of growth around, given the fact that communities now have definitely told us which they had not told us at the time O'Brien and Gere prepared that report, but now we've got definite answers from communities they want to fly with us or they don't want to fly with us, or they're still thinking of it, you know. Mr. Hoenck -The only conclusion that I drew from the two presentations, I have a feeling that the second presentation, O'Brien and Gere does not display the integrity towards an institution such as our community. Councilman Caimano-Does not what? Mr. Hoenck-I would expect in that presentation because of the difference between what Kestner proposed and what they would have gotten away if they had become the designated engineering firm, could have been six to seven, maybe more, million dollars for the same ultimate gallon per day output and that disturbs me. Do you know what I'm saying? Councilman Caimano- Well, just as something that we, something that maybe you know that I don't know here, Councilman Monahan-I know what you're saying, yes. Councilman Caimano-You made a statement Dick about Kestner's background and that's what they do is water treatment plants. They submitted a list of qualifications and in their qualifications since 1958 they've done a total, a total of twenty-four jobs in water and only one of any major consequence and that was ours. All the rest are five and six thousand dollar jobs, so I don't know that that's their major ... Supervisor Brandt-They did a job in Ticonderoga. Councilman Tucker-I'd like to point out to you, that plant has been there for seventeen years. Councilman Caimano- That's a good point. Councilman Tucker-With the minimum amount of maintenance and there hasn't been any major problems. Mr. Palmer-I think that's a real good point to take up because at the same point, this plant was designed seventeen years ago to meet a minimum specification on turbidity of one. They have been running consistently as the chart showed last year, point one, which is approximately, what nine hundred percent better than what the State demands for quality of water. And I think that, that is a pretty good recommendation. I really do. Supervisor Brandt-And that even occurred while they were running at six million gallons per day. Even though the plant was designed for five million, it's rated at three point seven five, it ran at six million and had a fabulous records of water quality and that's a credit to the Water Department as well as the designers of the plant, no question about it. Councilman Tucker-Another comment that ought to be made is this plant was built and it was designed for fifteen million gallons but it was built that you could put in two million gallons if you wanted to, five million or whatever. It was built to be built in increments. Supervisor Brandt -Okay and there was another point that I think, the real question is, O'Brien and Gere was saying that the plant really has to be shifted and the process shifted with a new high lift station and changing the way the plant is laid out and I think that's what is causing a huge increase in the cost. And the reason that it was, the justification was, that we were building a plant that someday could be increased to thirty million gallons and Queensbury is never going to ever, I mean that's building another burn plant for trash there. Too big and the people don't need it, too much bonding, too much engineering and the cost of transmission of water is too high. You're better off to have smaller plants in other places than you are to put all your eggs in one basket. And I think that's a fallacy, we've got a plant that's, is modules now, was designed and built to be expanded to fifteen million gallons. We're going the second module and what we're doing is we're hiring the people who built it to do it. Mr. Hoenck-I have to agree with you, you know, my analysis of the plant condition, for seventeen years, looks excellent, I'm sure. Mr. Philo-They've done a good job over there. Mr. Hoenck-Most of it, also in terms of maintenance, is due to the present department. They did a nice job and I appreciate Ralph taking us through and explaining this ... Councilman Caimano-Right, John has a question. Mr. Hoenck-So we are in a basically good position. Mr. Salvador-I've got a couple of questions. In the scheme of things, who bears the responsibility for the process guarantees of this water treatment plant? Councilman Caimano- The Board. Supervisor Brandt -Say that again, what? Mr. Salvador-In what you're doing, who bears the responsibility for the process guarantied? Supervisor Brandt-I don't know what you mean by process guarantee. Mr. Salvador-That the plant produces the quantity and the quality with the energy consumption that the engineer develops this thing, who bears that responsibility? Councilman Caimano-We do. Supervisor Brandt-We would form a contract and get into a contractual relationship with this where you would have to define those things and that's the next move. Councilman Caimano-But the ultimate responsibility of course is managements and in this case, the Town Board. Supervisor Brandt-Right. Mr. Salvador-You can't guarantee that, your not competent enough. Councilman Caimano- That's right, that's exactly ... Mr. Salvador-That's why you hire an engineer. Councilman Caimano- That's correct. Supervisor Brandt -So you hire an engineer and you specify these things in a contract. Councilman Caimano-But isn't that so in any corporation? That is so in any corporation. Mr. Salvador-Wait a minute, it depends on the scheme of things. If you are competent to carry the burden of the guarantees, you can do it. But a Town Board is not usually competent to do that. Councilman Caimano-Fine, who, what would you suggest we do? Give it up? Mr. Salvador-Well, I think you use one of these firms, that's bidding. Councilman Caimano- Yea. Supervisor Brandt-And that's what I'm trying to do. Mr. Salvador-Okay, if that's the case than Mrs. Monahan, you don't have, your not entitled to question this. How they put this plant together, how they size ... Councilman Caimano-But ... Mr. Salvador-Excuse me. Councilman Caimano-Well, of course you are. Mr. Salvador-How they size their equipment, where they put their equipment, the size of the pumps, is all in their guarantee. Hans? Mr. Palmer-I think it ... Councilman Caimano- I can't buy that at all. Mr. Hoenck-Well, you know, you're speaking for a public institution, okay. But and when it comes to a corporate project, it's a little different. Mr. Salvador-I understand that but this is a public ... Mr. Hoenck-Yes, but the ultimate judgement in this way the community wants to go, it's still ajudgement that the Board has to make. Mr. Salvador-That is a duty type specification, I understand that but if ... Mr. Hoenck-But in terms of judging one proposal against the other, that's also a judgement ... Councilman Tucker-All he's saying is, that were not qualified to do the engineering. Councilman Caimano-Absolutely, absolutely. Councilman Tucker-That's all he's saying. Councilman Caimano-But we have a right to ask questions. Councilman Tucker-Yea, but you're not qualified to ... Supervisor Brandt-Well, I think also the question comes up, for instance the clear well, in the Kestner proposal, we sat through a long discussion Saturday, the proposal is to add additional clear well capacity under the new filters, so there is more clear well and that can be separated from the other clear well. But there's a question of contamination clear well, you know, you can get down to building duplicate plants, so that if one gets contaminated, you run the other one and that doesn't work. I mean, it gets down, it's not cost effective. Councilman Tucker-And let me point something out to you, that plant could be running full bore and this building catch on fire here and a water main breaks here on Bay Road, it doesn't matter how much water your pumping up there, you ain't got the water here to put it out. So, I mean you can find problems in everything. We run three or four lines to make sure you got water. It just don't work. Mr. Gilbert Boehm-You indicated before that through the years, you've had successive updates for expansIOns. Supervisor Brandt-The Town Boards did, here. Mr. Boehm-We're there other proposals made at that time in parallel so it's not just a single ... Councilman Caimano-I think there were, weren't there Ralph? Mr. Philo-Yes, 1986. Mr. Ralph VanDusen, Deputy Water Superintendent-There were proposals made by four firms for engineering services to deal with a plant expansion, Kestner was one of those four. Mr. Boehm-And each one of those updates? Mr. VanDusen-No, alright what happened, those four engineering firms, they basically, they listed their qualifications, their job experience and to put it in english, reasons why they thought the Town should select them to go ahead and develop a cost evaluation. The Town Board interviewed all four of those firms, they reduced it to two, they asked them to provide further information and based on that information, they selected the firm of O'Brien and Gere to come up with a cost evaluation of the plant expansion. Mr. Boehm-Oh, okay so there's essentially a single contracting outfit ... successive increments. Supervisor Brandt -Really, what you had, when your doing this kind of a project you pick an engineer. You look for your engineer, once you pick your engineer, that engineer develops your costs, your plan and submits it and that's really what we're doing here. We're really talking about picking that engineer and when you pick that engineer, you're looking at their background, what their history is, what their proposal is and it's a judgement call whether you want to work with them or you think you ought to go looking for other ones. Mr. Salvador-And is he also a supplier Mike, this engineer? Supervisor Brandt-No. Councilman Caimano-Could be though. Supervisor Brandt-Well, now wait a minute, they go for bid, they prepare the bid specs so somebody builds this thing, the builder is the supplier. They're going to specify the equipment. Mr. Salvador-Who supplies the equipment? Are there any of these companies involved in equipment ... ? Councilman Caimano- No. Supervisor Brandt-No, no, neither company. Mr. Philo-Like the last plant that was built, McManus, Longie and Brockwehl was the prime contractor. They supplied everything with Kestner's thing. Can we get back to, I'd like to ask one question, then I'd like to give you what the recommendation of this Board is. Supervisor Brandt -Yea, go ahead. Mr. Philo-One legal question, or if I was bidding this job, to the Attorney, and I was invited to a meeting and I was to propose my bid, my facts of the engineering, then all of sudden, this has been in the paper, it's been notified to them everything since 19 uh, they've had information on this before this and they can't say, I think they're throwing us alot of smoke. Do we have any liability if we pick another contractor? Supervisor Brandt-Another engineer, you're talking about. Mr. Philo-Another engineer. Supervisor Brandt-I don't think we have any liability. Mr. Philo-This is ... Councilman Caimano-What do you mean? I'm not sure I understand the question? Attorney Dusek-Are you taking about under any pre-existing contracts we may have with the engineer Tom, is that your question? Mr. Philo-Yes. Attorney Dusek-We can go back and double check the contracts but I don't recall that. But we, you know we could certainly do that, make sure. Councilman Monahan-Tom, are you talking about the contractor we had with O'Brien and Gere? Mr. Philo-Yes. Supervisor Brandt-No, I think we can, we can ... Attorney Dusek-I think you paid him for his services and that's it but ... Councilman Caimano- That's right. Councilman Monahan-Yea. Mr. Philo-Okay. Councilman Caimano-He made his report and that's it. Mr. Philo-Now can I, do you want to hear what the Board, our Board? Supervisor Brandt -Yea. Mr. Philo-Okay, this is from Dr. Hauser, Robert Martin, Contractor, Albert Oudekerk, who just came in, Albert was out of Town on vacation, okay. Supervisor Brandt-Right, but he took part earlier in alot of the work. Mr. Philo-He's been with it but when this meeting went on he was out of Town to get updated. Dick Palmer, Hans and myself. Supervisor Brandt-Hans Hoenck. Mr. Philo-Hans Hoenck. Supervisor Brandt -One of those tough german names like Brandt. Mr. Philo-I always pronounce it Hoink. We spent alot of time on this with Garner Tripp, he's the engineer for the City of Glens Falls. He put some input with us. As far as selling water, we shouldn't be in that business with what we see here. We should be looking at a capacity enough to take care of the Town of Queensbury. There is an over capacity, enough capacity to take care of Kingsbury, Hudson Falls and etcetera when we get this up. Supervisor Brandt-And it might be to our advantage to do that because that end of our system is very low flow and it may be beneficial to sell water out of that end of the system. Mr. Philo-Very good. This is the opinion that our Board made. Not to try to get into the water business. We talked to people from Glens Falls, South Glens Falls, Hudson Falls, Fort Edward, Kingsbury and they're, everything that the water board or whoever tried to sell this program in the previous, did not come up with some valid figures. It was about twenty percent, our figures of what was projected to us originally. So, we did look at that and we come up with some honest answers and we're saying a ten million gallon capacity is more than enough. This Kestner, has already designed that plant for fifteen million. We looked at the concrete structure, Hans, myself, all of us, the concrete work is in excellent shape. I wish that new building was as in good shape as this building is at the present time. There is ways, they talked about putting a building over there for x number of dollars and they came out with scrubber system that's going to save us a quarter, a new scrubber system of what we planned on putting in that building. There was a place for a pump already that they've got ready to drop a pump in. They've already, smart enough to, the engineering, I thought they did a good job looking into the future. Everyone of us, after you got through with that meeting Saturday, we went over to the plant and we stayed there pretty near all day. It was after four o'clock, right Hans, when we got done. Mr. Hoenck-Well, we stayed about two hours, two hours plus. Mr. Philo-And we went through one end of that plant to the other, Mike, we looked at the building over there, the new building as well, when we went through and this is for the benefit of the whole Board. There, before you pay another nickel on that building, I would hold the money back until somebody goes through that punch list and does it correctly. There's effervescence on the building, there's leaks in the floor, there's quite a few things that we see that was not functioning right. There's some coping, pre-cast, so you ought to have somebody go through and check that out as far as represent the Water Department there. Everything we see, as far as what the Water Department has done, is excellent. We've seen a nice looking building, maintenance. There was a few things that we see on that maintenance of that building, we would like to discuss with the Water Commissioner and he said that he would sit down at any time and talk with us. And all of our agreements of the vote, other than Mr. Oudekerk, we voted that Kestner was experienced with the plan, the things that he gave to us was valid. Am I right Hans? And he was saving us alot of money and he wasn't dancing. He answered our questions. So, before you go ahead, I hate to bring this up and we said we wouldn't, of things in the past. But this ... Supervisor Brandt-Don't bring up the past. Mr. Philo-What I'm saying, the previous Board ... Supervisor Brandt-We said that you wouldn't, don't. Mr. Philo-We're asking, don't you people do what the previous Board does, did on that building. Just give it some thought and go ahead and do it right and we feel as though Kestner is the engineer for the job. Not only did we talk with engineers of this area, we went to other water plants. We've been to five water plants and everyone of them said they had good relationship with him and I don't see where they done us any harm before. Supervisor Brandt-Well, okay, I personally think the real question for the Board to wrestle with after we get started in choosing an engineer and start towards the design and the building specifications and going to work, is how we can save money so that we can minimize tax increases and we've been looking at that as a department of public utilities. Looking at consolidating services, that's another part of the study that's on going and we'll come back and look at that. That's a plate full to digest for this Board and so what I'm trying to do is move on and start the process of the construction, chose the engineer and start expanding the plant while we as a Board, focus on cost savings and operation and operating philosophy. Mr. Philo-I think that's a very good idea Mr. Brandt, that public utilities, Nick shook his head kind of in maze but if I have two hundred pieces of equipment, I have bulldozers, I have backhoes and they're duplicated within this Town, they ought to be one motor pool that this outfits can draw at them. We can't even get the Town to plow this area here, we have what we call a maintenance outfit to keep the road plowed and parking lot, road shovel, sidewalk shoveled and the lawn taking care of, of this building alone. Then we move next door and we got another situation. We got the Highway Department, they've have backhoes, they have front-end loaders ... Councilman Caimano-We're way off, way off the tangent here. Supervisor Brandt-Yea but let's, we're going off on a tangent. I don't want to get off into that, that's ... Mr. Philo-Well, I'm saying if we put all this equipment together into one motor pool. Mr. Boehm-They agree that they need to do that, is what they're saying. Mr. Philo-Yes. Supervisor Brandt -Yea, yea, well we, I, we certainly, you know, I'm an advocate of the idea. I think we got to look at it very hard, I don't think we have an answer in total yet but I think we're starting there and I think we've got alot of work to do to get it and we can affect that and I'd like to address that and spend some time at it and I'd like to move this process along because this gives us water rapidly, it's a good answer, it's cost effective and it's somebody that's got a good history. So, motion is made and it's been seconded, let's keep going. Is there other discussion? Mr. Palmer-Any questions from us? Mr. Boehm-I think what I've heard, is that you had two bidders in here with two proposals. One of about twelve million, the other about six million. These gentlemen seem to think that the six million bid is a valid bid, also that this outfit as a result of previous experience in building this plant, has an inside track in terms of creditability. Now, as a result, they also seem to feel, they support you in the selection of that particular bidder. Is that what I ... Supervisor Brandt-That's what I'm hearing. Mr. Philo-A hundred percent. Councilman Monahan-I'm not holding any brieffor O'Brien and Gere but I do want to say that these two proposals were not done on the same basis and that may account for some of the difference, it may not account for all of them. But O'Brien and Gere was told to come in and look at this a little different then what had been looked at previously and that accounts for some of the difference. I won't say that it accounts for six million but it is not identical scope of work that they were getting. Mr. Boehm-But what do you suggest, they start allover, with a common requirement? Councilman Monahan-I think that we need to decide what we're going to require and that's the first thing that we need and then get a price from more than one firm. Supervisor Brandt-I have a problem with that. My problem is that we went first to Kestner as a Board, years ago and said make us a proposal. Kestner said, expand your plant five million gallons and they said it over and over again. They also said, start looking at water conservation, instead of, there's like twenty days out of the year, maybe fifteen when everybody is watering their lawns and your using enormous quantities of water and instead of building a plant that can produce that enormous quantity, restrict water consumption it's cost effective. And over and over they said that and the choice of the previous Boards' was to ignore that and to say, let's build a bigger plant and let's sell water to other people. Now, O'Brien and Gere was even hired to go talk to the other Towns and the result is, that the other Towns didn't want to buy. But as of a month ago, O'Brien and Gere sat here and told this Town Board, build a fifteen million gallon a day plant. And they recommended that to us and they did not tell us what they recommended that we produced, fifteen million gallons a day, they failed to tell us that it would cost another seven million to distribute that water. So once we built that plant, then we would discover that. They didn't tell us that the other Towns don't want to buy that extra capacity and in my estimation, they were trying to sell engineering services, a hell of alot of concrete, a hell of alot of steel and a hell of a lot of their work, and it wasn't looking out for our best interest. We went after it and we found the other answer, we brought it forth and I think this is a very cost effective, it's the kind of philosophy I want to see and when they made their presentation, it was honest, it was straight, it was simple and I want to move it, that's why I put the motion out. Mr. Boehm-I agree that the other engineering firm was derelict in not looking at all different options too, and with that point of view, I'd say... Councilman Caimano- Yea, and I don't disagree with that or anything else. I guess I'll ask, Mike, I'll use this. At the end of 1991, you and I walked into a meeting in December and we asked people to wait and they didn't wait. They didn't wait until we got in office and it's potentially a mistake. I'm asking you the same thing. Again, I hold no, I hold no brief for O'Brien and Gere or anybody else, I'm suggesting that we have zeroed in for the first time, this Board on what we want and that's a ten million gallon a day plant and that there maybe an alternative method and I'm not, I don't want to go on infinite either, I would put a deadline on it. I would put a deadline on it of the middle of the month or the end of the month. All I'm suggesting is, it is folly to not look at someone else who has experience and let me just say again, Kestner did build it, one of the best things they said Saturday was the fact that it lasted seventeen years trouble free. And of course as you gentlemen said, part of that belongs to the dedicated people who run the danm plant. Mr. Philo-Very much so. Councilman Caimano-But let me make sure you understand, I said fifty-eight, it's fifty-five. Since 1955, the plant that we're going to unilaterally or the company that we're going to unilaterally build our plant, the largest plant they've ever plant is a four million gallon a day plant, one, two, three, four, five, five plants is all they've ever built and most of those are point five, point three and fifty thousand gallons and the rest of their experience, the rest of the twenty-three is, I'm not saying they're not experience, but I'm suggesting that if we're going to spend six million dollars, we ought to take one more breath and look. Mr. Palmer-I guess Nick, listening to what you just said, was absolutely not the way you came across when you suggested that we go with it, that we move it, that we look at this and we go for it and was agreed with Betty at that meeting and then you did not want to have Kestner come in. Councilman Caimano- That's not, that's not so. Mr. Palmer-I'm telling you, the way you came across, it most certainly was. It was entirely different then what you're doing now. Councilman Caimano-Well, go back and read, I said I don't want to spend the money. Mr. Palmer-I would like to read them, very much. Councilman Caimano-Go ahead, that's fine, it's done. Supervisor Brandt-But are we going to find another engineering firm without spending money? We spent money on O'Brien and Gere, we spent money on Kestner. Now, you want to spend money on another one, hire another one to come in and make a map, plan and report in effect. Councilman Caimano-No, no I don't. Mr. Philo-I don't want another trash plant where you've got sixteen engineers and sixteen ... Councilman Caimano-I don't, but I'll bet you that we can get an engineering firm to come in here at their expense and bid this plant. Unknown-What was that? Supervisor Brandt-Where have they been? Councilman Caimano-I bet you that we can get an engineering firm, schooled in this business, to come in and give us a bid on this plant, at their expense. Councilman Monahan-A proposal, you mean. Councilman Caimano-A proposal, I'm sorry. Supervisor Brandt-Well, we've had a year and some, you got somebody in mind? Mr. Palmer-Why did you not do that or suggest it at the time when Kestner was proposed? I don't understand that. Councilman Caimano-Go back and read the minutes Dick. Supervisor Brandt-Now, wait a minute. Mr. Palmer-You suggested that? Supervisor Brandt-He asked a fair question. Councilman Caimano- The answer is the same. I can't give an answer any better. You know as well as I do, that I wanted to move this thing along. I had, I was not trying to push O'Brien and Gere. I asked for the meeting on a Saturday. I don't, all I was against, was the three thousand dollars. That's all I was against. Supervisor Brandt-Well, three thousand saves six million, so it isn't too bad so far. Councilman Caimano-Well, we'll see. Mr. Hoenck-Let's put it this way, you know you can have a preliminary engineering study by a firm indicating to you without any commitment on the ... Councilman Caimano-On our part. Mr. Hoenck-To take that firm as the ultimate contractor, okay. Councilman Caimano-Right. Mr. Hoenck-And that proposal apparently was given to the Board to do this at the expense of three thousand dollars and believe me, on hindsight, that's the way I have to see it now, I would have voted for that three thousand dollars. Councilman Caimano-Okay, fine. Supervisor Brandt-Okay, anyhow there's, thank you very much, a motion on the floor. Mr. VanDusen-My name is Ralph VanDusen, I'm the Deputy Water Superintendent for the Town of Queensbury. I want to clear just a couple of things. In reference to the possible leak in the slab in the clear well, our department had a concern from a preventive maintenance standpoint in 1989. We had not been in the clear well, because it couldn't be drained, because we couldn't go down in there. We hired an engineering firm called Conrady out of Florida to come up and do an inspection of the tank of the clear well. They did that inspection, it was their report that referenced, it was not O'Brien and Gere, it was not Kestner, it was a separate engineer. Okay, so the comments about a potential leak are Conrady's, they don't belong to anyone else other than Conrady. Supervisor Brandt-And in that report, when you guys were talking Saturday about that, that firm said that it was a non-leak leak. In other words, it was a very small leak, if it was a leak. Mr. VanDusen-Exactly. Supervisor Brandt-It might not be a leak, but it might be a leak but at any rate, it's a very small leak if it exists. Mr. VanDusen-Yea, using Ralph's words, I'll sayan area of concern. Not any huge amount of water, possibly no water, an area that there was, that just appeared odd from his expertise. Supervisor Brandt-Okay. Councilman Tucker-Ralph, this was looked at, they were under water looking at all this stuff and taking pictures with ... Mr. VanDusen-Yea, there was a PE that went in with a scuba tank and took pictures of it and we have pictures in the office of that. Supervisor Brandt-And that, we discussed all this Saturday, also. Mr. VanDusen-That's right but I just wanted to, tonight earlier it kind of was indicated that O'Brien and Gere had done that study and that's not the case. Supervisor Brandt-Okay, we understand. Mr. Palmer-Can I just ask a question about that? I believe O'Brien and Gere in their presentation stated that there was a crack in the clear well, and it just drove me crazy. Mr. VanDusen-Okay. Mr. Palmer-Because those are the people that claimed that I'm tying to find out where would they get that information. Mr. VanDusen-Sure, all I'm telling you ... Mr. Palmer-Why would they state that, something like that. Mr. VanDusen-I'm telling you, the information came from Conrady. Mr. Philo-We understood it came from them. Mr. VanDusen-Okay, I haven't had the luxury of seeing the new report but I have a couple of questions or concerns I guess to make sure that it gets addressed. Obviously, I'll say our entire department is interested and has a concern for the plant expansion. We've all done our best to try and operate what we feel the best facility that we could. We have alot of experience there and we are very happy to offer whatever input that we can that can make your job easier to make that decision. Please feel free to ask whatever questions that come up at any time. No matter what engineering firm does a plant expansion, a design for a plant expansion, at some point in time, distribution improvements are going to become necessary. Kestner says that, O'Brien and Gere says that, certainly any engineer is going to say that. Our current network and distribution system has a limit of certain number of gallons. If you expand the plant tomorrow, if you could magically make that plant expand tomorrow, you don't need to improve all of the distribution system tomorrow. That's a gradual thing, as you start using that quantity of water, then you address the weak points. Currently we have a couple of weak points that should be being addressed and in the not too distant future. Supervisor Brandt-And they're not real expensive either. Mr. VanDusen-Relatively minor in the overall scheme of things. But as you approach fifteen million or whether it's ten million or twelve million or fifteen, when you start approaching that on a regular basis, then you will need to prepare the weak links in your distribution network and that's true no matter who the engineer is going to be. Supervisor Brandt-And what we're looking at here is a ten million gallon plant, that may surge and produce thirteen or fourteen million, as the current one produces, six, you know but it won't be rated for that. And if we start going up to a plant that's producing on a regular basis, close to fifteen million, then you really need some big improvements in the distribution system. Mr. VanDusen-Well, actually, as I understood the Kestner proposal and I asked several questions Saturday to get it clear in my mind, from a filter standpoint, we'll be rated at eleven and a quarter. From a clarifier standpoint, we'll be rated at eleven and a quarter. From a high and low lift pumping, it sounds like ten million would be the limiting capability. Supervisor Brandt-But it wouldn't be real expensive to upgrade that too. Mr. VanDusen-it would be a relatively, assuming that the chemical feeds system is capable of handling that next step up, it would be a very minor thing to upgrade that. Okay, and certainly we would recommend no matter what size addition you put, that it does fit in an overall growth package, that you're not going to have to put something in five or ten years, just tear it out and throw it away. Supervisor Brandt-Right and he's talking one large variable speed high lift pump and one large low lift pump. The other two pumps in each of those stations could be upgraded and go to variable speed and to go to larger equipment at any time. So it would be easy to do that. Mr. VanDusen-Do you know on the process plant design, who is Kestner going to use for that? Supervisor Brandt-When you say the process, I'm ... Mr. VanDusen-Okay, he's designing, when he designs our plant, there's HV AC, there's electrical, there's ... Supervisor Brandt-No, he did not tell us. Mr. VanDusen-Okay, are you aware he did not design the one we have now, he contracted that out. Supervisor Brandt - I know he contracted different parts of it. Mr. VanDusen-The overall plant design for us was a firm out of Massachusetts that he hired and I have a little bit of a concern that I would kind of like to know whose going to be doing that design work. Whether he's going to be doing it himself and if he's going to do it himself, I'd be interested to know what other plants that Quinten Kestner has designed. If he's going to use the same firm, then you know, take a look at what he's done in the last seventeen years. Supervisor Brandt-Well, that's fine but he's stamping it and he's responsible for it. Mr. VanDusen-1 understand that but I'm telling you that he did not design the plant that's there now. Supervisor Brandt - I understand that and in the current building that you just put up, O'Brien and Gere didn't do everything either, some of it was done by Rist-Frost. They commonly job out jobs where their expertise isn't strong to other people. I have no problem with that. Mr. VanDusen-That's fine but I just think that's ... Councilman Monahan-But we knew that Rist-Frost was going to on that project, right off the bat. Mr. Philo-Excuse me, but can I say one thing on that. It came out a Federal law and State law that when we were bidding jobs, with the municipality, they had, mechanicals had a right to bid on their own so you can't say anything like that Mr. VanDusen. What I'm saying is, they made them come out and put some of the bids out ... Mr. VanDusen-No, no, your misunderstanding me. What I'm saying is, not who does the work, the person that design, who did the engineering and I'm saying that Quinten Kestner did not do the engineering on the plant design. He hired someone else to do that. Nothing to do with who the plumbing contractor or the HV AC or the general or electrical was. Mr. Philo-That was the same thing, they had to shop that out by law. Supervisor Brandt-Well, I understand it, keep going. Mr. VanDusen-Okay, that was it. Okay, you understand my concern on that. Supervisor Brandt -Yea. Mr. VanDusen-Okay, thank you very much. Supervisor Brandt-Okay. Mr. VanDusen-Do you have any questions for me? Councilman Monahan-Ralph, I just have a question for, to help my knowledge, it has nothing to do frankly with what we're doing. But that sludge that you all talk about in the bottom of the clear well, how do you get that out of there? Does it just keep staying there and building up? Mr. VanDusen-Yea, it will gradually add until you remove it. Ideally, you optimize your operation to minimize how much you, you want to create as little of that sludge as you can. Councilman Monahan-But that, how, I mean have you ever taken the sludge out of that clear well? Mr. VanDusen-We have never been able to and the engineer, for the most part, the engineers, it's certainly possible but the problem we have removing it, is it's very light and fluffy and the least little bit of disturbance puts into solution and are concern is, if we put it in solution, we're going to pump it out into the distribution system. I have a sample on my desk right now and it's not something that you would want to come out of your faucet. Supervisor Brandt-Right but there isn't ... Councilman Monahan-So how much do we have there? Mr. VanDusen-In some areas absolutely none and in other areas, my guess is probably a foot and a half. Councilman Tucker-You're talking about the clear well? Mr. VanDusen-Yes. Supervisor Brandt-Right and we're talking about building a new clear well and there's a possibility we discussed with Kestner that and real low usage time, we can use totally out of the new clear well, stop using out of the current clear well and so we can go in there and clean that out. Mr. VanDusen-As long as it's possible to ... to section off or, either by a separate pump, high lift pumps or section it off, yes. Supervisor Brandt-Right, section if off or something like that. Councilman Tucker-We had conversation about that. Supervisor Brandt-It's been discussed and I think it, that has a solution and it may have several solutions. Mr. VanDusen-Okay, just in the original plan or his proposal I saw before, didn't include that so that's why Councilman Tucker-We had conversations about that and he, and the only, he said, you know I said to him, if we go with the two clear wells, it will be important that we can shut one down and operate out of the other and he said this could be done. And he said, like cleaning the one that is there now, you would do it in the Winter time when demand is down and go from that point. Mr. VanDusen-Sure, and that's fine. Councilman Monahan-Mike, I noticed ... Mr. Palmer-I think that the question about sludge in the bottom of the clear well is kind of misleading. It's not sludge. This is the water we're drinking, but it's the best ... Councilman Monahan- I realize that but whatever settles out of it. Mr. Palmer-It's the best in the Country, believe me. So when we talk about sludge in the clear well, there's a little bit of, what is it? Supervisor Brandt-Flocculent or something. Mr. Palmer-Flocculent, what have you but whatever it is, it's so light it's nothing dangerous. But it doesn't, it's not sludge per say. Councilman Monahan-Well, they called it that so I called it that. Mr. Boehm-It's like sediment in the bottom of a wine bottle. Councilman Caimano-It's exactly like that. Mr. Boehm-He raised an issue that gives me some concern. Presumably, we're talking about this outfit having significant creditability as a result of your experience of seventeen years. Are they the ones that did the design or was it subcontracted out, to some other outfit? Supervisor Brandt-They brought the designs in, they subcontracted certain parts out. They subcontracted electrical work out. They subcontracted various sections out, they put the whole design together of the plant as is. Councilman Caimano- That's not what he said. Is that what you said? Supervisor Brandt-No, I'm saying that Kestner in the original design didn't do all of the design. Mr. Boehm-But what I'm saying is, if you have a whole new design team, that if it's subcontracting together for this particular bid, then the creditability again is a big question mark. Supervisor Brandt-Well, it's seventeen years later, probably some people are dead that worked on this seventeen years ago. Councilman Monahan-In fact though Mr. Kestner that was intimately involved with this plant was the father of the two boys that are in the company now. Mr. Philo-The two boys that were here Saturday worked on the plant. Councilman Monahan-Oh, they worked on it but the father was the guiding light back then. Mr. Philo-They did alot of the ... Supervisor Brandt-Right and he's still in the family business. Mr. Salvador-In the original design, the original plans, who had the responsibility for the processed design? Supervisor Brandt-Kestner. Mr. VanDusen-Cochrane engineering in Massachusetts was hired by the Kestner firm. Supervisor Brandt-But Kestner ... Mr. Salvador-Who was responsible to the Town of Queensbury for the process design? Mr. VanDusen-Joseph A. Kestner Engineers. Mr. Salvador-Okay. Councilman Monahan-Mike, I do notice too in this total project cost, there's not a figure in there for legal or engineering and that to me is a big lack. Supervisor Brandt-Legal engineering? Councilman Monahan-Legal and engineering, there's nothing in there for that. Councilman Tucker-He said Saturday that it was all in each one of the units. Supervisor Brandt-As he said, all inclusive and there was a... Councilman Monahan-Oh wait a minute, the way he put that, the contingencies, he said he put the contingencies in the base fee. Supervisor Brandt-If you look on this sheet, it says, I'm going through the items. Councilman Monahan-I'm looking on this one that ends, 6046, I'm just looking at this one page because I've just seen ... Supervisor Brandt-Yea, okay, read the very bottom of that page. This project cost includes a thirty-five percent mark up for construction contingencies, legal, administration, finance and engineering. Councilman Monahan-Mike, you're on a different page then I am. You've seen this and had a chance to read it but we've just gotten it so I'm not following it. Supervisor Brandt-Right here. Mr. Philo-What about this other outfit that O'Brien and Gere, Mike, when they said forty-two percent they wanted on top... Supervisor Brandt-We've got a motion on the floor, I want to get out of here some time tonight. Any other discussion on the motion? Please vote. Duly adopted this 8th day of March, 1993, by the following vote: AYES: Mrs. Goetz, Mr. Caimano, Mr. Tucker, Mr. Brandt NOES: Mrs. Monahan ABSENT: None DISCUSSION WHILE VOTE WAS TAKEN: Councilman Caimano- There's not alot of choice. If you're going, I believe as I have said and if you go back, you'll see that and I have said, we need to expand this water plant. I'm not going to cast a negative vote against this because I think we need it. My concern is still valid, I think we're making a grave error in going with one bid on this thing. I'll vote yes. Councilman Monahan-I'll vote no because I do think we should get a bid from another firm or a request for proposal from another firm. OPEN FORUM 10: 15 P.M. Mr. Gilbert Boehm-Relative to the Water Plant, is the Board considering forcing water saving fixtures into your system as a whole? Supervisor Brandt-That's part of the recommendation but the big savings is in lawn sprinkling. The other one is part of building code, in fact New York Code is forcing you to put that into new homes. Mr. Boehm-How about old homes? As you have certain distribution lines that are becoming ... points, it seems before you enlarge those particular distribution points, that you force water saving fixtures on those people that are on those lines. Councilman Tucker-Eventually, this is all your going to be able to buy. I don't think you can go in to all the homes and force them to change things. Mr. Boehm-However, if your in the position where you have to install new lines to accommodate that, it seems to me before you do that, you ought to try to force water saving fixture because they in turn have to bear the transmission line costs too. Councilman Tucker-But legally it would be hard for a sitting Board to go into somebody's home and do this. Mr. Boehm-It's being done in certain cities. Town Board held discussion regarding placement of satellite dish antennas. Attorney Dusek reviewed FCC regulations of 1986, receive only antennas and agreed to prepare proposal for Monday night's meeting to set hearing. Mr. John Salvador-Did the Town participate in the County sponsored seminar on Stormwater Runoff, the end of February? Mr. Martin-Yes, the meeting of the Zoning Administrators of the Lake George Basin. Mr. Salvador-Did we learn anything. Mr. Martin-Not really, it's was just a round table exchange. That meeting, they were beating up on the AP A. The Park Commission was beat up on the previous meeting, the AP A got it this meeting. Mr. Salvador-What are we doing with regard to the Stormwater and the Park Commission? Any progress? Supervisor Brandt-Very, very little so far. Mr. Salvador-Referred to article on front page of the Post Star, yesterday, 'Lake George Feeling the Effects of Urbanization'. It notes, these are all problems that the State is backing away from and saying, if something is going to be done, it has to be done by local government. But local governments have not stepped up to meet the challenge. Supervisor Brandt-Tell him to hold his breath and see if we do. Councilman Goetz-Are you on the Lake George Affairs Committee at the County level? Supervisor Brandt-Yes, but ... Mr. Salvador-Yes you are. Councilman Goetz-Because I think you brought this up the last time and he was going to try to say something. Mr. Salvador-Well, they haven't scheduled the meeting. You see, they duck by not scheduling meetings. RESOLUTION CALLING FOR EXECUTIVE SESSION RESOLUTION NO. 180, 93 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. Nick Caiman WHO MOVED IT'S ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mr. Michel Brandt RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby adjourns from Regular Session and enter Executive Session to discuss a Personnel Matter. Duly adopted this 8th day of March, 1993, by the following vote: ALL THOSE IN FAVOR: Ayes ALL THOSE OPPOSED: None ABSENT: None No further action was taken. On motion, the meeting was adjourned. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED, DARLEEN M. DOUGHER TOWN CLERK TOWN OF QUEENSBURY