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1993-04-02 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING APRIL 2,1993 1: 11 p.m. MTG. #26 RES.218-219 TOWN BOARD MEMBERS Supervisor Michel Brandt Councilman Betty Monahan Councilman Susan Goetz Councilman Nick Caimano Councilman Pliney Tucker Attorney Paul Dusek LANDFILL DISCUSSION Mr. Dick Morse-(used map for landfill closure plan) This is the closure plan that we have been working on for the last two and a half months. It is based upon at this point a cross section that we had discussed at a Town Board Meeting in February. We talked about a barrier protection layer 24" of that top soil on top of that a 40 mill geo membrane and 18" of paper mill sludge underneath that, the gas vent layer possibly being made out of Rolite. We talked about on the side slopes the paper mill sludge would be eliminated, this was rapped around the new cap design that would come into place after the Fed. regs took effect on October 9th of this year. Since that time we have been discussing several issues particularly the potential of using paper mill sludge in various pieces of this cap. 1. Mandated relief a situation that DEC is proposing for various landfills is a action that a Town or the operator of the landfill can request ofDEC relief on various issues. Some of those issues are vegetative cover where we could use any material that could support vegetative growth. The next layer is the barrier protection layer this has been a general class material layer it has not been a too tight of a specification. They have inferred that could be eliminated in certain application. That application would indicate that a 40 mill membrane be put in place. The next layer on slopes greater than 25% the clay quote material, it does not necessarily have to be clay, but they refer to as 10 to the minus 7 could be reduced to 10 to the minus 6. We have been looking at using paper mill sludge in various ways, we have talked to several mills and several mills have benefit use determinations for usage of this material in various places. First, vegetative cover, barrier protection layer in a blended condition to satisfy as generic fill, next indications that it will pass the 10 to the minus 7 for existing cap will meet 10 to the minus 6 for the reduced cap requirement. There is a potential for using paper mill sludge in those three areas of the cap. It also can be used as general fill, accept it as a waste steam, we need 100,000 yards for shaping. The cap is a flexible design, the plans are generated on a sloping shape and we looked at the waste stream at the time and came up with about 80-100,000 yards of material that we can anticipate bring in until October. We need that and are working toward that, we have places for more, right now we have a flat top we could lift it up and give a 25% slope. We are trying to have a revenue stream that will bring the cost of the whole closure down and is why we are in flux on this and looking at various options, if possible we would like to have zero expenditure on this capping and closure, DEC is attempting to give us some assistance thorough mandates. Councilman Monahan-Spoke on the extension given the Moreau landfill, how will that affect our ability to attract paper sludge at a decent price? Mr. Morse-lam not sure of all the ramifications of Moreau staying open.. . reviewed the status of blending the Federal and State regs., so we will only have to deal with one set of rules, the State is awaiting authorization from EP A if they are acceptable... Attorney Dusek-In the end it seems that some of this stuff comes out as a wash, some seems to be in our favor in terms of mandate relief packages I think in the end what you will come out with is a wash on the regs with the only problem being certain elements of these new things that we have to take into consideration, there may be more testing and monitoring, more cleanup situations, financial assurance package...The issue as I see it in terms of the October date is something we have to face down, part of the answers we do not know yet is whether or not sludge, taking paper sludge say we only do that after October 1st. whether that will grant us the relieffrom the regs that we are looking for that we want to comply with them because we are taking it as part of the closure process. Even after October the Federal regs then have a six month interval to finish your closure process, that is another dead line date. There is a provision in the regs which allow for an extension of time, primarily for seasonal variations... Councilman Caimano-Questioned how and why Moreau was given an extension? Attorney Dusek-Noted we are under a consent order where we must close we cannot presume that even if we can get by the Fed regs that we are going to have clear sailing with DEC. Noted a lot ofDEC moves are site specific. Councilman Tucker-Another bearing they had over there, their extension coincides when their landfill in North Umberland opens...theirs will close when the other one opens. Attorney Dusek-My recollection from the article is they are only open to accept sludge they are not open for general landfill purposes. We are asking for something quite similar to what Saratoga is doing. Mr. Morse-EP A regs are cap oriented, and DEC is floor related.. . noted the cap is more restricted after October 9th... Councilman Monahan-Questioned if Moreau is staying open how do we stand in obtaining paper sludge, and at what price... Mr. Morse-There seems to be a large stream of sludge... Attorney Dusek-We seem to be finding sources for paper mill sludge, the issue will be in the numbers they need and the demands on the community in terms of the number of truck loads and the routes they will take... Supervisor Brandt -You estimated the closing costs at two million three hundred and sixty five thousand dollars direct costs... Mr. Morse-On 3-6-93 I gave you a projected cost of three point three, three point four, based on this design no reduction for Rolite. Supervisor Brandt-That did not include bring water to the area. Mr. Morse-No..A forty mill cap, six inches of top soil seeding, drainage structure, geo-textile, gas vents, gas vent material, barrier protection and then deducted out of that the clay.. .income from paper mill sludge was deducted... Councilman Tucker-In that figure you have buying all the top soil? Questioned the top soil at that landfill... Mr. Morse-The figure includes buying the top soiL.. will look at using top soil at landfill it would require a variance relief... suggest that we blend it with paper mill sludge and expand that production because we need 33,000 cubic yards of top soil. Supervisor Brandt-The high side of the cost including water...4.5 million... Mr. Morse-A budget using paper mill sludge...numbers 6" top soil, at 50% blend, barrier protection, full barrier protection out of nothing but sludge.. .245,000 cubic yards of material for that of sludge.. . fixed cost top soil blending which included the 50% sand material blended in blending and installation costs $231,000 barrier protection placement at $262,000 barrier placement at $490,000 seeding, drainage and geo-textiles and gas venting ...total estimate with paper mill cap at 2.3 million... Supervisor Brandt-With water at 800,000 3.165 million...that is the lowest figure so far..subtract the fund balance 1.3 million we are looking for a million eight hundred sixty five thousand of income so we can get out of this without charging the taxpayers. Councilman Tucker-Questioned the time frame... Attorney Dusek- six months stay open, one year the close out period...one year and a half... Councilman Tucker-What is your feel if we did ask for more time what is your feel, Dick? Mr. Morse-More time to stay open to take material? I do not know what DEC is going to do... Supervisor Brandt-It is a possibility.. Mr. Morse-Spoke to the Board regarding usage of more paper mill sludge to shape the slopes of the landfill... Supervisor Brandt-Revenue stream-paper mill sludge, $5.50 yrd. for small mills to dump the sludge..ifwe could get 300,000 at $5.00 per yrd. that's a million and a half...defray the cost of handling the sludge...net a little under a million and a half...another potential is Rolite in a year you could produce a million and a half dollars...difference is the number oftrucks...those are negative impacts on our community...we will have to apply for some fill volume to cover us and from my view point apply for a beneficial use determination for Rolite...as well as continue to negotiate for paper mill sludge...we need to start the processing of the paper work, asking for 450,000 yards of material for fill ...Another question will their be State funding for the closure of the landfill, right now there isn't any, will the legislature bring us some we do not know... Councilman Caimano-noted that he was told that we should put in an application for funding, there will be some... Councilman Tucker-In Moreau if they take the extension and use more paper sludge they give up their right for State funding.... Mr. Morse-All of our estimates are made without funding from the State. Attorney Dusek-You have been pursuing two tracks, paper sludge and Rolite, ...critical area, the amount of paper sludge...negotiations with the paper mills and responses that DEC is requiring us to get back to them on... Councilman Monahan-Is paper mill sludge in cell one? Mr. Morse-No...it can be adapted to accept it, and I would apply for it. Councilman Goetz-Do you have to do a lot of engineering work to do the two track into DEC? Mr. Morse-Not really. Need 250,000 yrds sludge for cap, and an additional 250,000 for fill that will require additional engineering because I will have to modify the drawings... Councilman Caimano-What are we doing in terms of bonding 20 yr at 7%... Supervisor Brandt - 20 year at 6 1/2 Councilman Caimano-Ifthat is the worst case scenario, on a billion one hundred and sixty one million evaluation you are talking about a penny and a half....there is nothing to be lost on going on the two tracks.. . Councilman Monahan-Noted that the water to that area would be subject to a permissive referendum... Attorney Dusek-The amount offill would be 450,000 yrds. for paper sludge, and what is the justification for that number... Mr. Morse-We would use it to reshape the sides slopes steeper and longer...would require a better impervious cap underneath it.. Attorney Dusek-In terms of the 450,000 you are saying you are going to do that and add on another 249,000 for the capping process so we are looking at a total paper sludge of 700,000 cubic yards. Councilman Tucker-Noted if at some point DEC says we can use Rolite how will this affect the sludge contracts? Mr. Morse-From an economic standpoint...it depends on the contracts...you might need a bailout clause which may cost you... DEC should approve this thorough an environmental oriented view point... Councilman Monahan-Questioned the size of the trucks used to transport the paper sludge... Mr. Morse- 30-35 Councilman Monahan-There are certain roads that have to be closed off, Jenkinsville Road ... E. Sunnyside Road RESOLUTION TO MAKE APPLICATION FOR USE OF PAPER MILL SLUDGE AT LANDFILL CLOSURE RESOLUTION NO. 218, 93 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. Michel Brandt WHO MOVED FOR ITS ADOPTION, SECONDED BY: Mr. Nick Caimano I will put a motion on the floor to apply, make application for closure using paper mill sludge plus a fill of 450,000 cubic yards. Duly adopted this 2nd day of April, 1993 by the following vote: AYES: Mrs. Monahan, Mrs. Goetz, Mr. Caimano, Mr. Tucker, Mr. Brandt NOES: None ABSENT: None Rolite Discussion Supervisor Brandt-We are not saying that we want Rolite here no matter what, what we are asking for is for DEC to review this on a BUD, we are asking their approval thorough the review process. Councilman Caimano-Reviewed letter with Supervisor regarding Rolite...after the second paragraph it says 'Rolite is produced by' and then goes on, well we do not know that they tell us that, we put down Rolite represents the following, and then identify what Rolite is representing, because we do not know that as a fact....the only other question that Betty had is the next to the last paragraph 'Mike Brandt, Supervisor of the Town of Queensbury said "DEC should expeditiously answer any remaining technical questions concerning the regular use of Rolite in closing landfills, besides the savings to Queensbury Taxpayers would be recycling what otherwise would be again another waste product" nothing wrong with that, the last sentence 'Rolite is approved' this approval in this sentence refers to the State not to us 'Rolite is approved could also be used in building bases in road construction in our community' that is an opinion of his and I cannot share that because I do not know that. Councilman Monahan-We are trying to get the landfill closed we are not doing anything about roads at this time, I think that should come out of there. Supervisor Brandt-I have no problem with that...as modified we will send that back ...agreed to by the Board RESOLUTION RATIFYING ACTION OF TOWN ATTORNEY RESOLUTION NO. 219, 93 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. Pliney Tucker WHO MOVED FOR ITS ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mr. Nick Caimano RESOLVED, the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby acknowledges and ratifies the action of the Town Attorney in requesting an extension to May 1st in which to submit a closure plan and hereby indicates its agreement with that move. Duly adopted this 2nd day of April, 1993 by the following vote: AYES: Mrs. Goetz, Mr. Tucker, Mr. Caimano, Mrs. Monahan, Mr. Brandt NOES: None ABSENT: None DISCUSSION- WATERDEPT. AND DISTRICT Supervisor Brandt-I would like to discuss the future of where we are going with the Water Dept. and the size of the staffing etc. We had basically decided to build a plant and subject to the voters permissive referendum with a capacity of ten million gallons and basically decided not to become a major producer of water for adjoining towns but rather a lower lever providing water for Hudson Falls and Fort Edward on a fairly low level. We have also said that we do not see major expansions of the Water Dist. within the Town at least that seems to be what has been said. The next question is should we be examining whether we should continue with the construction efforts that we have within the water dept. Councilman Goetz-Is the discussion going to focus on other departments also, because it's it one issue? Supervisor Brandt-It can be an issue of consolidating into a department of public utilities that is a possibility that has been discussed. The concern I have is when we go with the water treatment plant if that is approved it is going to result in an increase in taxes it could be $100. per year per house, in that neighborhood I think that is the original guestimates are. Are there ways of cutting our expenses to reduce that tax increase and try and get it closer to maintaining a constant tax rate. Councilman Goetz-I do not see how we can talk about the water dept. individually without looking at the over all picture and are we starting with the Water Dept. because of the expansion of the water treatment plant? Supervisor Brandt-We have said we are not going to expand a great deal with district so the question is if you are not going to expand the district a great deal we have some immediate needs, we have to relocate pipes on Peggy Ann Road and we have a piece of pipe on Pasco Avenue those are projects we know we have. At some point that is going to come to an end, can we consolidate that function with other functions within the Town. Is it our intent to expand the district into other areas? Glen Lake Area, but I think the cost is prohibitive, so should we continue with the construction crew? Councilman Monahan-Spoke on how the expense of the Glen Lake Dist. could be cut by not going into all the side streets, as the first district was laid out...if Glen Lake made a loop in the system part of the cost could be paid by the main water dist. Supervisor Brandt-That is something that could be looked at and a determination made. Councilman Goetz-If that happened (Glen Lake loop) would that help the water pressure in Twicwood? Mr. Ralph VanDusen-Deputy Water Supt.-noted the pressure problem in the summer time comes from the 8" line going under the Northway, that project of upgrading that has been talked about...and also storage in that part oftown...I would expect a minor effect in Twicwood... Mr. Thomas Flaherty-Water Supt.-One of the problems in Twicwood is it is one of the highest points in the system...Wincrest and Oakwood are not on the booster system...that could be engineered. Supervisor Brandt-If you made the loop what is the benefit to the district? Mr. VanDusen-Currently the only avenue to get water from the high pressure side Route 9 from there to the central part of the Town is through the Quaker Road corridor, this would give a secondary path...that would help as more building occurs in this part of town, Bay Road, Ridge Road to Quaker Road. Upgrading Gurney Lane with additional storage there would have a real significant impact on the hydraulics... Councilman Tucker-What kind of figures have you got Mike, what you think we can save. Supervisor Brandt-I don't know that I have figures I have looked at other water depts. that run much smaller crews, transmission crews and they have very substantial savings, I am not sure they are totally equatable to our town, you really have to look at that closely. The Town of Glenville is able to run at a much lower distribution cost. They only read their meters once a year instead of four, a lot of meter reading done by the owners themselves with only a checking function done by the Water dept., Commercial meters are read by the Dept. That is a potential place to save on money. They do a certain amount of contracting they work with their Highway dept. but their Highway dept. works as a public utilities, when they have plowing, repairing roads that comes first if the water break during those time periods then they contract out the work. They take their construction crews and basically melt them into their Highway Dept. That scenario could save a half a million dollars a year if it is workable. Councilman Tucker-They allow subdivisions to put in their own taps as they put the water lines in. Supervisor Brandt-They require them to make their own taps and all they do is inspect the work. If you could find those kinds of savings you are basically you could cover your debt service just about a half million dollars a year...I have asked a commission of people to start looking at this and looking at consolidation of potentially toward a dept. of public utilities... that group will be talking to dept. heads... they are looking at staffing departments, job descriptions and equipment levels in all the various depts. that might fit in. Mrs. Pulver-Asked for a list of the people on the committee... Supervisor Brandt-I will provide you with that. Mr. Kruger-Builder-To do capital improvements by adding taxes to each house why are we looking at it from that standpoint rather than raising the water rate? As a builder developer the reaction I have gotten from people moving to the area from outside the area are, they are disbelief the water rate is low...they are shocked to see the water dept. has a piece of the taxes.... their biggest shock is the cost of the school system ... I would much rather see a higher rate for water than add more onto taxes... Supervisor Brandt-That is a possibility. Mrs. Pulver-I support what he said about having the water rates go up as a home owner I would feel that I had some control than I do over my taxes... Councilman Caimano-How big is Glenville? Supervisor Brandt-The Water System is about 75% the size of ours, the treatment plant they pump from wells their treatment costs are lower than ours... Mr. Ostrander-What is the size of their crew? Supervisor Brandt-Their crew is smaller but they do contract out, they also work closely with the Highway Dept. Mr. Palmer-Regarding the loss of water if we were to find that isn't that a place where we might look at some revenue coming in, to cut down taxes. Mr. VanDusen-Reviewed the leak survey...finding the leaks will have an effect on our percent loss for the system but it will not put a penny in the revenue to reduce the expenses. CP South-Spoke to the Board regarding the water used by the fire companies for drills... Mr. Daniel Olson-You mentioned a $100. per house hold if the expansion goes through is that on what assessed base? Supervisor Brandt-Assuming the house is $100,000. Mr. Flaherty-You talk about eliminating constructing crews, the construction crew is also the maintenance crew, if you cut crews you cut services, we also do share right now, we do work at the landfill, at Hovey Pond and other dept., so there is no misunderstanding we do share our crews and equipment., Supervisor Brandt-I am well aware of it. Mr. Palmer-How does using that reflect on the taxpayers dollars that they are paying for water are they paying for water or construction? Mr. Flaherty-If we do work on Hovey Pond we have to charge, we are a special benefit district, we cannot use our services out side a special benefit district because they were not paid for by taxpayers outside the special district. If we do work outside the district then we bill the general town fund or the recreation or whoever we do that work for, we bill it and it comes in as a revenue for the water dept. Mr. Palmer-Is that what has been done then? Mr. Flaherty-Yes it has. C.P. South-Reviewed the report that was sponsored by the Town Board regarding the efficiency of the water dept. according to the report it seems to me our water dept. is run pretty effectively ... I also understand there was another report done also show pretty close to the same thing...is the Town Board and the utility committee going to use these reports? Supervisor Brandt-That report is available. Mr. Fred Champaign-Mike were there other town looked at other than Glenville? Supervisor Brandt -Glenville was a primary look because it was at the low end and it was a different philosophy of design, there has been some look at other ones, I have not had a chance to look at them. Mr. Fred Champaign-We are searching for ways to decrease staff is that the underlying sense? Supervisor Brandt-We are looking at ways to decrease costs, whatever that is. Mr. Fred Champaign-Do we have an organizational chart with job descriptions and task analysis of those jobs that can be evaluated in terms of accountability for individual time? Supervisor Brandt-Part of that is done and part is being done, this group is looking at that. C.P. South-Is this committee looking at the Cemetery Commission? Supervisor Brandt-No, I do not think we have, my analysis of the Cemetery Commission that I have seen so far is we may not have any legal jurisdiction over them in which case we are not looking there. That may come when the Cemetery Commission looks for their funding in which case then the Town Board does have some say when they would have their discussions if any. C.P. South-The Town of Queensbury is fortunate in having their cemeteries look very nice, you only have to walk into the Town of Fort Edward and go into the Cemetery across from the Town ofFt. Edward and realize what a detrimental thing that is to the Town. The Town of Queensbury has a slogan a Good Place to Live one of the good things about our town is our cemeteries, no matter how old they are they are kept up they are a monument to those who have passed before us and each and everyone of them I am proud of. I know the work that has gone on by a very few people in that dept. that works extra hard to make all the cemeteries a thing of beauty and a memorial for this Town. Councilman Monahan-I agree with you. Supervisor Brandt-As far as the loop system there is no point in discussing it, until the pipe across the northway is enlarged and see what that does. Mrs. Pulver-Questioned the qualifications of the people on the committee? Supervisor Brandt-Just people. Mrs. Pulver-What are you looking for as the end result then? Supervisor Brandt-Input. Their impressions. Mrs. Pulver-What are they doing besides the Water Dept.? Supervisor Brandt-They will look at all the departments that might be merged or work forces could be consolidated. Probably Parks and Recreation, Building and Grounds, Water, Wastewater, Landfill, basically it. Mr. VanDusen-The time frame when do you expect the committee would have the report back? Supervisor Brandt-It is a volunteer committee I do not think it is something that is going to be immediate. Mr. VanDusen-You have instructed us not to hire a replacement mechanic, we have no mechanic now... Supervisor Brandt-When Hansen gets back I would like to entertain a discussion with you guys and him to see if his mechanic could be moved over there, I do not know if that is possible but lets look at that. Mr. VanDusen-The Committee will review the tasks that our distribution crew does now and determine if it IS necessary.... Supervisor Brandt-No they are going to be gathering data and talking with you and get a sense of it. Mr. Fred Champaign-Questioned the expansion of the Water Dist. past the Office Building...has that been studies. Councilman Tucker-People have got to request it.... Mr. Champaign-You are saying if we went from neighbor to neighbor further up the way and then you would do an analysis? Maybe that should be put as an article in the paper? Mr. Ronald Montesi-When you take a consolidated water dist. and the taxpayers have paid for all the equipment and all that goes with it and merge that how do you pool the resources ... Supervisor Brandt-Bookkeeping situation you would transfer assets to adept. of public utilities and then charge out where they work....I do not think that is very difficult. Mrs. Pulver-Isn't that what they do now? Supervisor Brandt-That is correct. Mr. Montesi-Will the taxpayers get a rebate then that have been in that water dist. all these years? Supervisor Brandt-If you transfer equipment out you have to transfer the value... Mr. Montesi-Then all the taxpayers in the Town would bear the burden of that plant and not have water...if all the assets of the water plant, are its plant and its equipment and personnel and you consolidate it into the Town... Supervisor Brandt-No. Mr. Flaherty-You are just talking about the construction crew. Mr. Montesi-The payroll and equipment. Supervisor Brandt-Right, there are certainly ways to doing it. Mr. Pulver-Is there a problem with the Water Dept. meeting its expenses? Supervisor Brandt-I do not think there is ever a problem about government meeting its expenses, it passes them off to the taxpayer, if you can cut the costs you can cut the taxes that is the incentive to look at cost cutting. Mr. Pulver-You can cut costs on everything but you also cut services, I am not willing to have my services cut. Supervisor Brandt-Some people are. Mr. Ken Parker-What was the official Town Board opinion of the prior audit that the engineering firm did? Supervisor Brandt-There is no official Town Board evaluation. Mr. Ken Parker-The review of the Water Dept. activities that you hired an outside consultant to do I presume they completed it satisfactorily and supplied you with the information that they complied. Supervisor Brandt-I do not agree with your presumption that is my opinion, they finished the work and they billed us. Mr. Parker-They completed the task and billed you. Supervisor Brandt -Yes. The report is public information and you are welcome to it... On motion the meeting was adjourned. Respectfully submitted, Miss Darleen M. Dougher Town Clerk-Queensbury