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1993-11-04 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING NOVEMBER 4, 1993 7:00 P.M. MTG #80 RES. 649-650 BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT MICHEL BRANDT -SUPERVISOR BETTY MONAHAN-COUNCILMAN NICK CAIMANO - COUNCILMAN SUSAN GOETZ-COUNCILMAN PLINEY TUCKER-COUNCILMAN TOWN ATTORNEY PAUL DUSEK TOWN OFFICIALS TOM FLAHERTY, RALPH VANDUSEN, MIKE SHAW, P AUL NAYLOR, RICK MISSIT A, JIM MARTIN PRESS: GF Post Star PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE LED BY SUPERVISOR BRANDT Supervisor Brandt called meeting to order ... the purpose of our meeting is a public hearing on the budget and I assumed that's been properly advertised. Town Clerk Dougher-Yes. PUBLIC HEARING - PROPOSED 1994 BUDGET NOTICE SHOWN 7;00 P.M. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Okay, the floor is yours. Come on up, one at a time and talk to us, tell us what you think. MR. DOUG AUER-Good evening everyone. My name is Doug Auer, I'm on the Recreation Commission. The reason I came this evening, I would like to support the concept of hiring a Town Engineer and I'll tell you why. I'm an engineer myself by education and not too long ago, we had received an unsolicited proposal from Jim Miller Associates and he's a landscape architect. And basically this has to do with some planning for Gurney Lane and he was proposing certain ball fields and this of that nature out there, activity type things and I never really looked at the area very closely before that. We, after this proposal, came in, did walk the land and look at it and I had a few questions in my mind about doing this. Now, the problem is this. Landscape architects draw very pretty pictures, they're in two dimensions, there on a flat piece of paper and of course this is an unsolicited proposal, so it didn't cost anything. There was some discussion within the Recreation Commission to go ahead and have this fellow do a more extensive analysis on this. Now, he was quoting us approximately twenty-five hundred dollars to do this. After we walked it, I had some questions about it and I knew that there was going to have to be some earth work done. I didn't know to the extent that the earth work would have to be done. So, I did, I spent about six hours and I made a series of calculations, overlays and so forth and came to the reality that we would have to be moving about twenty-one thousand yards of earth and this is to build one ball field now. And if you take a three dollar per yard cost to do that, to excavate, remove, compact and so forth, you'd be looking at a pretty substantial amount of money. Essentially, we be boiled in oil by the taxpayers if something like that were allowed to happen. So, I immediately contacted Harry and said, Harry, we can't do this and I explained to him why and Harry said, gee, you're right, this is a problem. You know, it's kind of senseless to spend this kind of money if we already know this is going to be a situation. The point is this, I shouldn't have to as a Recreation Commission member, spend the time to do this. I'd be happy to discuss with someone who can, you know, also has the educational background and so forth and make this kind of analysis but the point is that with the kind of problems and programs that I think are going to be undertaken by the Recreation Commission and the Town in other areas, there should be a Town Engineer, a PE, Civil Engineer person that could make these sort of evaluations. It took me six hours to do it. If I had a CAD system and a digitizing pallet, I could do it in a half hour and you know, you're not talking about a big expense there for equipment. So, certainly today's engineers and certainly working in the Town should provide him with all the equipment and so forth, you know, as that goes. But, I'djust like it to be known that and of course the other members of the Recreation Commission are aware of this, I haven't really discussed in any detail their views on whether they think an engineer is a necessary thing for the Town but you know, it's just something that I have a little more experience with then they do and like I say, we really haven't discussed it. So, whatever happens in your budgetary planning and I don't know if there's a line item in there or what but please give it some consideration. The new members of the administration that are coming in, I don't know, I see one familiar face, the new Supervisor. But I would hope that he would give that some consideration. So, thank you. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Doug, for your information and for the general public, I've talked to Mr. Champagne and I've told him that from my view point, welcome to look at this budget and re-adjust it anyway he wants to. It was built around the Department of Public Utilities and if that serves the purpose or doesn't, that's the decision of the new Board and I'll gladly work with them and I think they need some time to really look at it themselves and see how to adjust it. I'd rather, I don't really want to vote for higher taxes in any substantial amount then what the budget calls for. And I think he's willing to do that and I know he spent some time today with EJ Christensen to go through the budget. And we also are making or we have printouts of all of the budgets for all of the new Town Board members so they can work in detail and come back to us and I certainly welcome their input. So, that everybody knows that, with that said, I turn it right back over to you people. MR. P AUL NAYLOR, Highway Superintendent -Paul H. Naylor, Highway Superintendent. Officially, I don't like the budget the way it stands and you know why. So, it's good news to me and I thank you for inviting Mr. Champagne and the new Board on to straighten the budget out, I hope. Thank you. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Anyone else? MR. JOHN SALVADOR-My name is John Salvador, I'm a resident of North Queensbury. I picked up this budget at the Town Clerk's Office, I believe Tuesday morning, the proposed budget. Is it the one you handed out tonight? I'd like to get a few procedural things clear first. If this budget, this document is any way revised, is it then subject to public comment again? ATTORNEY DUSEK-I took the time to pick up an opinion of the State Comptroller because I read the law, it's not, to necessarily require it and I though it would be appropriate to get a further definitive, not that's definitive but it's certainly helpful opinion of the State Comptroller and they indicate that after the public hearing, the Town Board is authorized to further change, alter and revise the preliminary budget and it would include the power to raise and lower salaries as well as revise other items of expenditures contained in the preliminary budget. The only thing they could not do would be to increase the salaries that were set forth in the newspaper ad and in light of that opinion as well as my reading of that statute, it's my feeling that a public hearing would not be necessary. MR. SALVADOR-So, anything can happen after this, really, it's no SUPERVISOR BRANDT-That's basically correct. MR. SALVADOR-Okay. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Anything that this Board wants to vote in, that's MR. SALVADOR-It's not subject to public review and comment after this go-around? SUPERVISOR BRANDT-That's what I heard. MR. SALVADOR-Hard to believe but, in looking through this printout, I would think that more detail should be offered. Some of these line items, you got some line items in here that add up to five hundred dollars and other line items that add up to a hundred and thirty-five thousand dollars. Why can't we, we've got the space on the paper and I'm sure the computer program is available can be expanded to show more detail in some of these categories. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Darleen has lost her voice, I think. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Are you going to give him an answer, Betty? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Oh, we were waiting. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Because I haven't seen this one. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-The main budget has been reduced slightly and that's what the public has. You're welcome to look at mine, if you MR. SAL V ADOR- Well, why can't we print here? My God, it's a simple thing. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-But that's not your question, though. You're question is though, there's not enough detail for a hundred thirty-five thousand dollar line item. That's really what your question is, right? MR. SAL V ADOR-I don't think there's enough detail in some of these line items to tell people what's going on. I mean, you've got, you've got, you had to have had work sheets to build up to some of these items. COUNCILMAN GOETZ-Well, after the departments come in and meet with the Town Board, they bring a breakdown. MR. SALVADOR-Fine, why can't that break down be reflected COUNCILMAN GOETZ-Some of them do. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-We've had, we've met with most all departments and those have been open meetings and people were welcome to come in. I don't think anyone did, there were very few people did. It's a big pain, I can tell you that. It's, you know MR. SALVADOR-This is what we're offered SUPERVISOR BRANDT -I know. MR. SALVADOR-For this meeting, okay COUNCILMAN GOETZ-Well, for instance MR. SAL V ADOR-I should get enough information to tell me a story. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Well, I guess what Mrs. Goetz and Mr. Brandt are trying to say to you is that, it's voluminous and although all of the meetings that, wait a minute MR. SALVADOR-Blanks, blanks. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Hold it, all the meetings that we hold with department heads are open to the public also and if you come to those meetings you will get all that detail. You would find out what went into that line item of a hundred and thirty-five thousand dollars. I guess it's just, the reason it's not is because it would become a document that is so big and cumbersome you wouldn't MR. SALVADOR-Not at all, you see that blank page. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Yea, but it would, there's alot more than that. MR. SALVADOR-Fill it out. MR. AUER-Knowing a little something about the way that they're formatted like that, it doesn't work quite that way. If you have to go through, the software doesn't printed it out like that, is the simple answer. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I guess my point is, I would love to have you have as much detail and so would everybody else as possible, John. This Supervisor as well as every Supervisor tries to get you the information, there's a whole bunch of open hearings, open meetings held and that's where that information is available. Plus, you can get it from any department head at any time, it's open, right. COUNCILMAN GOETZ-As an example MR. SALVADOR-But why do we have it on some of them? COUNCILMAN GOETZ-As an example, the Recreation Department brought the worksheets, you know, so you could go. Which one are you on, what department? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-What page are you on? COUNCILMAN GOETZ-What department at the top does it say? I'd like to see one that's more detail, you just mentioned one. MR. SAL V ADOR- There's one line item, Community Services, fifteen thousand dollars? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yea, but which page of the budget are you talking about, John? MR. SAL V ADOR-Fifty-nine. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Give us a code number. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Page 59, though. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-It is a one liner, it's a MR. SALVADOR-Here's page twenty-two, is something called un-allocated insurance, a hundred and thirty-six thousand dollars. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That means it's not allocated to any particular department, it comes out of the general fund. MR. SALVADOR-What kind of insurance is it? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Every, liability, fire MR. SALVADOR-Fine, list them. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well, you can't, it's impossible. MR. SAL V ADOR- Why not? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Because it's MR. SAL V ADOR-I buy these insurance in my business, I know what they are. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-John, in the first place those insurance will be bought in January, there isn't a figure for those now, it's a guesstimate of what our insurance will be. MR. SALVADOR-Fine, you had to come up with COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But when you try and break that down, that's not even broken down in our budget, there's certain insurance, because is an overall overlay for the whole town, you don't break it down by department. Now, the Highway gets their trucks broken out. Other, Water Departments will get certain things broken out but some things just don't break out and become MR. SAL V ADOR- Those things that do breakout, can we see them? That's all I'm asking. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- Yes. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Yes. MR. SALVADOR-Okay. Well, why can't we COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-And you do, as much as possible. MR. SALVADOR-If you don't COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Well, if you don't, you can always find it. MR. SALVADOR-Okay. There's an item in here called police protection. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-That's composed of two items. It's primarily the contractual payment agreed to with the County which is phasing out at the rate of fifty thousand dollars a year and the balance for the security person at the courts. MR. SALVADOR-Again, can we break that out? Those are things that can be broken, they're against the cost code. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-What page, John have you got? MR. SAL V ADOR-I don't know what COUNCILMAN GOETZ-It's not the same Mike, it's this little one. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-It's not as ours. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I know but I can look at the little one. I can look at the little one and transfer it. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Department thirty-one twenty? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Three one two zero. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Yea, school crossing guards. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- That's what he's talking about? SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Yes. COUNCILMAN TUCKER-What you got on your sheet on that? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-He's trying to find it. MR. SALVADOR-I'm looking for it. I just noted that it was one line item. The Cemetery has got a page and a half of detail. The Cemetery. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Okay, John COUNCILMAN TUCKER-The one to do with the police, we've only got two lines. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-You've got the school traffic officers, twenty thousand. You got Warren County contract is a hundred thousand dollars. MR. SALVADOR-Okay, the point on the police protection with the County. Do we have a, do we enter into a contract with the County? Do we know what we're buying from the County for what we're paying? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Yes, yes. COUNCILMAN TUCKER-Yes. MR. SALVADOR-There is a contract? COUNCILMAN TUCKER-YES. MR. SALVADOR-It spells it out? COUNCILMAN TUCKER-YES. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-A long time ago. MR. SALVADOR-How about this year, this money? COUNCILMAN TUCKER-It was a five year contract. MR. SALVADOR -You entered into a five year contract COUNCILMAN TUCKER-No, I didn't. MR. SALVADOR-On behalf of the taxpayers? COUNCILMAN TUCKER-No, John we didn't. MR. SALVADOR-What? COUNCILMAN TUCKER-We didn't. MR. SALVADOR-The town entered into a five year contract on behalf of the taxpayers? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-No, that's not right. MR. SALVADOR-You're not kidding, it's not right. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- There was a five year buy-out. The contract goes on forever. ATTORNEY DUSEK-My recollection is there was a multiple year contract entered into but the terms of the contract were for a decreasing payment to the County, each one of the years with an ultimate goal with reaching zero for the services. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- That's correct. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -It will be fifty thousand next year and zero the following year. ATTORNEY DUSEK-I forget the exact numbers but it's constantly decreasing and it is a written contract. MR. SALVADOR - We have contract, specifies what we're supposed to get? ATTORNEY DUSEK-That's correct. MR. SALVADOR-Alright, my concern is that the Sheriffs Department supplies services to alot of these events like a Balloon Festival, a Motorcade, a Motorcycle rally, a race up the Bolton Road and it cost alot of money and I want to be sure that the taxpayers of this town aren't paying for those services. That's all I'm concerned with. Okay? Now, I've been told that because Mr. Lamy expends twelve thousand dollars on police protection for a Balloon Festival then he can also do something like that for the Town of Bolton for a road race. Now, he's getting the money from some place. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-The bulk of it's coming from the County budget, it's got to be. MR. SALVADOR-That's us. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Yea, but that's not this Board. MR. SALVADOR-But we don't have an obligation to pay for police protection to the County other than what we contract for. The Sheriffs services on behalf of us County residents, that's something else. COUNCILMAN TUCKER-What is it, about thirty-eight percent of the total Sheriffs budget is paid by taxpayers in the Town of Queensbury, thirty -eight percent. Thirty -eight percent of the budget. This contract that we've got with them, came about when we done away with our Police Department. MR. SAL V ADOR-I understand. COUNCILMAN TUCKER-Okay, and I guess fought for it long before I sat on this Board to eliminate it because I maintained if we paid thirty-eight percent of the total budget to the Sheriffs Department we should get thirty-eight percent of the service from the Sheriffs Department. And I always got told, well, up County towns couldn't afford to pay for the service that they deserve so, some of ours went up there. MR. SAL V ADOR- That's right. COUNCILMAN TUCKER-But when we came on board here and Mr. Brandt negotiated this contract and I was told before that we would lose service if they eliminated the contract. When Mr. Brandt negotiated it, the Sheriff said we wouldn't lose any service. MR. SALVADOR - Well, I can understand if your losing a service if you don't enter into a contract. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Well, I don't know what to tell you. It's a, we had long negotiation, we discussed it at great length. The County Board of Supervisors basically said that if we didn't phase out the contract essentially as we did, that they were going to cut some people off the payroll. And police services were sparse at best and we felt that was, wouldn't serve us well so we, after long negotiation, it found a way out this way that gave the County time to readjust their priorities to cover what they had to pick up here and they agreed not to cut services in the process. I think it was a reasonable settlement on everybody's part and I think it serves us fairly well. I see alot of Sheriffs patrol in our town and as I understand it, probably we get more than thirty-eight percent of the patrolling because this is where the activities of the County are. This is where the bulk of the stores are and the population centers and it ends up that the police has to spend more time here then they do in other places. That's been the dialogue on the County Board and from my personal observations, it looks like it's probably pretty true. MR. SALVADOR-Okay. Fire protection, this year's budget is a little over two million dollars proposed. How does it compare with last years? SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Last year COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I think there's a million nine. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -A million nine six five. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That's on your budget page, John, I think. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-One million nine, nine hundred and sixty-five thousand is last year and this is two million zero zero seven but there are, this Board still has to meet with some of the fire departments, Queensbury Central and Bay Ridge have requested a meeting and they feel that they don't have money and they are asking for more money. I haven't heard that from the other departments but those two I have and we've scheduled a meeting on the tenth with them. MR. SALVADOR-Shouldn't those meetings have taken place before this meeting? SUPERVISOR BRANDT-I've had some discussions but the Board would like to meet as a total Board with all the fire departments at once and try and settle this. MR. SAL V ADOR- That should have been done before this meeting, I think. It's your privilege to do this as you please. COUNCILMAN GOETZ-Well, when we met with them last year, we told them that we wanted the budgets lower this year. That was one thing that they were aware of. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-On the face sheet, it's a million nine nine five and yet under page 44 it's two million zero zero seven. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -I don't know why that is. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I don't know either. The two million zero zero seven, just to answer your question by the way, it's two percent more then the current budget. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-That included the service award system for both the firemen and the rescue squads and I think the rescue squads is what pushed it up probably. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Yea, that's probably what it is. MR. SALVADOR-Are the rescue squads included in that fire protection? SUPERVISOR BRANDT-In the two million, yes, the rescue contracts are. The fire budget includes both fire and rescue, EMS. MR. SALVADOR-Shouldn't we separate those? SUPERVISOR BRANDT-They are separated, line by line. The fire contracts themselves are a million four hundred and eighty-seven thousand in this budget as it stands today. MR. SAL V ADOR-I asked early in this year, you recall for a study to determine if we're doing the right thing with regard to fire protection, nothing has happened on that. The next thing I pursued was trying to find out what you use as a perimeter to determine what we should be paying for fire protection in a town like ours. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Right and I did that. I went to the State and I called a whole bunch of people, there are no standards, none. There's no financial standards of any kind. MR. SALVADOR -You have nothing to guide you to tell you? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-No. MR. SALVADOR-Isn't that incredible? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It is but that's the truth. I mean I went to everybody I could think of. You and I talked at a meeting and you chided me about not having it done, about a week later, I went and did it and there are no standards. MR. SAL V ADOR- Think of all the other standards we have, we don't have that. It's the largest single item on our tax bill, fire protection and there are no standards to tell you whether or not you're getting value for the dollar. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Yea, it's a fact. MR. SALVADOR-Landfill, we're faced with closing the landfill as of January first? SUPERVISOR BRANDT-This budget is set up so that it's assuming the landfill will not open. There's an alternative budget worked up that if the landfill were to stay open, that, we have to, the Board would have to amend this budget next year. This is set up for operating two transfer stations three days a week, alternate days both open on Saturdays and that's it. It's a very minor, you know, it's a minimal service but it would, it looks like it would fill the needs and get us through. If you ran the landfill, it would have to be a total modification, that's set up, there isn't much difference in the, the bottom line comes out about the same because you have quite a bit more income if you run the landfill then if you don't and you get rid of some big expenses if you're running the landfill. But either, you know in the end, whether the landfill runs or not, is not this Town Board's decision. It's going to be a decision made by DEC. It's totally up to them to make that decision, we have no say in it. MR. SALVADOR-Where do you get the closure costs? SUPERVISOR BRANDT-The closure costs are a separate budget and it's estimated to cost four million dollars to close the landfill. Of that, we have about two million dollars in cash reserves in a closure reserve fund, we're a little short of that but by year end we should be about there. And we have a million two hundred fifty thousand dollar approved grant from the State and we're eligible for another seven hundred and fifty thousand which would make it if we can COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Pretty close. MR. SAL V ADOR- Whose estimate is the four million? Who did that? SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Our Engineering firm, Morse Engineering did that for the Town. MR. SALVADOR-And that's current, that's SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Yes. COUNCILMAN TUCKER-On going. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- Yea, based on some real, real data of other people who have done it. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-But I saw a correspondence in the last two days from DEC on our closure plan that we submitted and they're getting down to pretty fine points of what they're asking for. It looks like basically they're accepting the closure plan except for, you know, they're asking for refinements on certain things. I didn't see anything in it that was drastically different, asking for any great change from what our plan asked for. MR. SALVADOR-Okay, there's an item in this budget of twenty-five thousand dollars for the Warren Washington Economic Development Corporation. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-That's correct. MR. SAL V ADOR-I was a bit surprised and, to hear that you expended those funds this year, that were allocated. I was trying to make the point that I didn't think corporate welfare was the rule of the Town and I've requested the resolution and the contract in this regard, we're going to take a look at that. You must feel that this twenty-five thousand is still a legitimate cost? You have it in your budget. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Yea, I put it in my budget and this Town Board has been kicking around. I think it's really a contract to keep the services that have been developed that works in trying to help industries move here and go through the economic development grants and funding through the State to try and get them to succeed in landing here. MR. SALVADOR-Well, if you feel that it's the roll of the Town to expend taxpayer's money in support of private endeavors, why don't you do the work yourself? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It would probably cost a whole more then twenty-five thousand dollars to do that. MR. SAL V ADOR-Oh yea, as you pay their overheads insurance and everything else. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Sure. MR. SAL V ADOR-I know and why haven't you gone to competitive bidding? SUPERVISOR BRANDT -For that service? MR. SALVADOR-Yea, fine, there are many organizations that can supply services for the Town of Queensbury. If you think economic development is a proper role for the government and a thing the Town of Queensbury has to do, then we should do it on behalf of the Town of Queensbury. Now, you're contracting with a Glens Falls outfit here. Are you getting benefit for your money? What are you getting for your twenty-five thousand dollars? If you're not getting benefit, it's a gift and gifts are not allowed. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Well, you have to look at the contract and I think we came to the conclusion that we are getting a benefit, this Board did and we've discussed it a length and it's our conclusion that there is a benefit and a benefit for the communities. So, we kept it in. MR. SAL V ADOR- The Town of Queensbury. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Yes. MR. SAL V ADOR- The Town of Queensbury, not the communities, the Town of Queensbury. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- Well, I don't know John. I think this Board and I'll speak for myself and you can say whatever you want to say. We can't live in splendid isolationism. We live in an area. If a plant were to come into Hudson Falls for that matter, we would get benefit for that. So, when you have a Regional Economic Development Corporation that we belong to, I think it's a good thing, as opposed to going out and, if you're going to do it, as opposed to going out and have somebody go out and search up business just for Queensbury alone. I just, if you're going to go for it, you can't go for isolationism. That's, I don't think that would work, we live in a community here. Yea, we live in the Town of Queensbury and it's our responsibility to watch the money. So, the legitimate question is, is it legitimate for us to be a part of that? That's a legitimate question and that's an argumentative question and that's when it's arguable. But if you're going to be in it, I don't, I don't see it as you should be in it alone, otherwise we would be in a battle, constantly. MR. SALVADOR -You're obligated to get value for the dollar. Okay? Value for the dollar. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- That's right. MR. SALVADOR-Okay, you're spending our dollars. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- That's right. There's two items of argument. MR. SALVADOR-Thank you. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Who else would like to speak? MR. DAVID KENNY-David Kenny, the Town of Queensbury. I just want to know about the revenues, the income. The three hundred and forty-six thousand, is that just a transfer? It says applied fund balance, the first page here. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Applied fund balance refers to taking money that's surplus at the end of the year and using it instead of taxes for the next year. MR. KENNY -Can I ask what kind of surplus there is in that surplus fund now? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-About a million, million and a half. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Yea, something it's, about that, I don't know exactly. MR. KENNY-And this time last year, what was the, that fund balance? Is that depleting each year, so eventually, we're going to say SUPERVISOR BRANDT -It's not depleting at this level and it didn't deplete last year but it didn't grow alot either. It was depleting when we came into office at a fairly good rate, it's not anymore. MR. KENNY-I guess that's my question. I mean, you know people don't realize, they say we're holding the taxes but if we're taking money out of a fund that's sitting there and offsetting our taxes, eventually, somebody is going to get hit pretty hard. And I just see this three hundred and forty-six thousand and that's money that's being raised, that was raised in the past. It's not being raised by this year's, it's money that's sitting in an account. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-That's right but to be fair about it, I think if you look at the total finance of the Town, we estimate revenues and because we're on sales tax, you don't really know. And the other big ones are like mortgage taxes which are pretty good size payments and you don't know until the year is over, what the economic activity yielded. I mean, like this year, you would expect growth but we didn't have growth so far. In fact, we had a tiny bit of cut back, like a half of percent but a half of percent on five million dollars is appreciable money. At any rate, we do estimate revenues conservatively and my guesstimate is that the applied fund balance probably, if you run the budget the way it's being run and you know, in the last few years, it should sustain. That you actually should see a surplus of about three hundred and fifty thousand dollars and so it should come out just about a balanced budget. If you see growth, economic growth that brings in alot of sales tax, you may start to see a surplus build and that's kind of the way we laid it out. So, that if a surplus did come in and build, then the Town could look at it in the future and look at special projects or whatever it wanted to do with that kind of a surplus. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Dave, to the best of my knowledge, for every year that I've been on this Board, there's always been money, surplus money that's been applied towards taxes for the following year. So MR. KENNY-That's not always the case. At one point, that surplus fund was growing. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It was still applied, it was still applied though. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It's still growing and you decide the amount that you're going to apply and also leave a cushion in there. You know, you never take that, that surplus right down to the bottom or anything. You always have a cushion in there and even after you take the part to apply towards taxes. MR. KENNY-Well, one of the things I would like to see in the future, I don't see why that surplus isn't part of this budget. I mean, I would like to know each year, what was the surplus last year, what is it this year and what is going to be next year. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-We have a monthly statement of all the accounts and showing surplus and we do a estimate of surplus several times during the year but it isn't meaningful until the last quarter of the year, you start to get a guesstimate of how all your expenses are running versus your income and you project what the surplus should be in every fund. MR. KENNY-Well, I mean, it's not meaningful to me until once a year, really. I know it's meaning to you every month, you keep good track of it but I would like to see it once a year. That's all I'm asking. So I can go back and look next year what the surplus is versus what is it was this year, just like I run my business. In my business, I have a surplus also but I watch it and I use it when I have to. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-You spend it. MR. KENNY -You spend it, right. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-In the general fund at the beginning of 1993 it was one million, three hundred and seventy-two thousand, eight hundred and twenty-six dollars. MR. KENNY -One million, three hundred, right. And today? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Next year, I'm told, it's going to be a million five plus or minus five percent. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yea, we think at the end of this year it will have increased. MR. KENNY-To a million five? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yes. MR. KENNY-Okay, and then that's all, you know, I would like to see as part of the budget, I think I asked this question last year, just to see COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- That's not a bad idea. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-No, I think that's a reasonable COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Or even maybe MR. KENNY -You know, I think the public should be able to track where the money is coming from. I have no idea where the money is coming from. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Well, we could put out that sheet once a year. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Or maybe even a better idea for the general public is a graph that shows how that climbs or goes down or whatever. MR. KENNY-Right, I mean, I don't even know this but I'm under the impression in some years past, alot of that surplus money, that fund was going down quite, at certain times. Now, I don't, I haven't seen COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Not that badly any time I've, that I can recall without going back and looking through my records. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Although, doesn't the surplus at one time, closer to four million dollars? SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Yea. MR. KENNY-That's what I thought. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But if you remember the State MR. KENNY -So, it did come down. I mean, somewhere, it did come down. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yea but Dave that was because one thing, the State criticize the Town very steeply because we acquired that kind of a surplus. And you know, it's always amused me the State who can't balance their budget, it's always running in the red, criticizes the towns and at one time, were thinking of ways to take that money away from all of the towns if they had any money that they had managed to accumulate. MR. KENNY-Well, one of the things, I think alot of the citizens that don't have money, would prefer the town not accumulate that much either. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But on the other hand Dave, here's what happens MR. KENNY-I don't want to pay taxes for something I don't have to pay taxes for. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Alright, here what happened. When Gurney Lane was built, the pool and the poolhouse, there was money in reserve already pay that, that never had to go out on a bond. So, you didn't have to pay the interest on a bond. When these buildings when up here and the other building got altered, most of that, there was a small bond, but most of it was paid out of accumulated funds that's where part of your four million went to. So, you know, it's not accumulated just to put a sock under the mattress, it's usually accumulated for a purpose, like we've accumulated the landfill closure fund. MR. KENNY-Well, the landfill closure fund is money raised by the landfill, it's not raised by taxpayers, I don't believe. I'm not paying taxes towards that. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well, you're paying taxes one way or another. I mean MR. KENNY-It was not part of the general fund at all. I'm talking about the general fund. Let's stick to the general fund. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-But if you had a shortfall on the closure, it would come out of general fund. MR. KENNY-Right and that's one of my concerns. My other concern is, you know, even me in business, you know, if I see my surplus growing to, I know I manage my business for myself, for my own economic liability and I'll be there for the next twenty years. A Town Board can change every two or three years and if somebody comes in or whatever may happen, you know, there's three million dollars there, let's spend it. You may fiscally say, no, we won't do it but somebody else in the future, who knows what and I, and with a business, I don't think I as a taxpayer and especially not knowing it, should be paying into a surplus fund. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-You're not putting into a surplus fund. MR. KENNY-If the surplus fund is growing, yet you're not paying taxes, my money is going to a surplus fund. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-But you don't COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-The way a budget is set up, you've got to estimate your revenues and you've got to estimate your expenses. Alright, sales tax can be a very iffy thing as you know here, now and if you estimate it too high and you don't get that, you can go in a real mess as far as you're financial picture of this Town. So, you've got to estimate that fairly conservatively. Now, on the other hand you have a good year and the sales tax comes in, that's going to make a surplus at the end of the year. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Plus the accountant if he were here, would say that because of and you have been, you guys have been here longer, because of the vagaries of our financial system, he likes to have a cushion of one million dollars just in case SUPERVISOR BRANDT-You've got to have at least that. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That's to pay your bills as they come in and out. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- That's to pay the bills. MR. KENNY-I guess that will raise my next point. I would like to see, I have a problem, I think the Town of Queensbury probably runs pretty accurate books and does give accurate accounting and it is pretty manageable. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-We're audited every year by a professional firm. MR. KENNY-But I'll tell you what, we pay approximately I believe around five hundred thousand dollars in property tax in the Town of Queensbury. We raise about four million dollars in sales tax. The Town of Queensbury residents pay over four million dollars in Warren County property taxes. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I can't answer you for Warren County, I'm just looking at MR. KENNY-Well, if you look at your tax bill, there's over, COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Town of Queensbury right now. MR. KENNY-Well, I would, myself, the town wouldn't have to worry about how much sales tax ... I can not control the State of New York, the mandates they put on Warren County. Welfare, Medicare, Medicaid, they're all uncontrollable expenses. Eighty percent of Warren County's budget, is uncontrollable. My tax bill now, I'm paying whether it be three dollars or four dollars on assessed thousand, to go to Warren County, to pay these bills that have to get paid, the County has no choice. You know, years ago, it may have been different. I brought this up before and people say, well, the town couldn't run. I don't understand it. If there's four million dollars being spent or four and a half million dollars being spent of Queensbury taxpayer's money to Warren County, I would prefer to see the sales tax take care of that and let Queensbury charge me four dollars and fifty cents per thousand on property taxes so then I would know where my money is going and you would have a budget, you wouldn't be estimating sales tax. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well, it's a wash one way or another and I'll tell you MR. KENNY-It's a wash, it's a wash, yes but COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I will tell you one thing MR. KENNY-I can go to a Board that I have some, I think Queensbury will honor the citizen's comments if they see the budget. It's controllable. You tell me now, why is it? Well, because we don't know what the sales tax is going to be next year. You know COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, I'm telling you within a range. You don't try and get it right down to the last penny because you could be wrong. But I will tell you Dave, there was a conscience decision made by this Board many years ago of how to handle this, whether return part of it to Warren County or to use it here. It was decided to use it here because we figured we're a little tighter with the dollar and we figured if we gave Warren County alot of money to spend, it was going to spend. MR. KENNY-They're spending it anyway. I'm being charged on my tax bill. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That's right but MR. KENNY-They have no control over what they spend. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That's a bunch of bologna. MR. KENNY-They got, alot of it State mandates, a good part of their budget. This is the way I look at it. Sales tax is an unknown dollar coming in, it's not a controllable. It's a windfall tax as far as I'm concerned. The County operates with alot of uncontrollable expenses that are uncontrollable because their welfare and their medicare and they're mandated by the State of New York. It just so happens at this point in time and it's probably going to go worse, it's not going to get better, I don't see it getting better. Years ago, they're probably, the tax to Warren County wasn't that high. Right now the tax to Warren County that Queensbury citizens pay, is more than the sales tax that Queensbury generates. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well, I will tell you, if you MR. KENNY-And I don't see that trend getting any better. There's one other benefit to the Town by switching. I'mjust asking to look into it. One, you wouldn't have to say, it can't be controlled because now you know exactly what your rais..., you know what your property taxes are. Two, come January first, you'd have four million dollars in your budget that would be collecting interest rather then waiting until the third quarter, getting the money in October to pay for bills you've had all year because a good percent of your sales tax comes in later in the year. Am I correct? Property taxes all get paid January first. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No. COUNCILMAN TUCKER-You get it four times a year. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-You get it four MR. KENNY -Right, you get it four but COUNCILMAN TUCKER-The biggest one is in October. MR. KENNY-Well, wouldn't it be nice to have all your money January first when property taxes are paid? The County gets that benefit now. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Dave, I've lived under both systems as a financial officer and I don't agree with you. I mean, you're certainly going to have your opinion, but I know the days that where this town ran on property taxes and what happen, you couldn't give fair services. Our roads were in terrible shape because nobody had the goal, the guts to stand up and charge the taxes that it took to maintain roads. MR. KENNY-Well, that's a problem I have. I, so let's let the County do that? SUPERVISOR BRANDT-What happens is MR. KENNY-I'm still paying it Mike. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Services really MR. KENNY-I'm paying four dollars and something cents to the county, I'd rather give it to the town. That's my point. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Well MR. KENNY-If there was a switch, years ago possibly, the sales tax was greater revenue then the county spent. So, it was, behoove us to take into the town rather let the county keep it. Today the county is charging us more money, Queensbury residents are paying over four million dollars in property taxes to Warren County. Whether you like it or not, I'm spending that money. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-I understand. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But you're still going to spend MR. KENNY-I'd rather give it to the town, that's all I'm saying. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No matter how you cut it, which way you're divided, your still going to be costing you the same kind of money. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-The other thing Dave MR. KENNY-That's right, it's still going to cost you the same kind of money, right. So, why not have a budget here we can all look at it and not be worried about, estimates are coming in and maybe this sales tax coming in. If we have, let's say, I'd rather have the county, if a disastrous sales tax next year, I don't want this budget to fall apart, I'd rather have the county have to worry about it. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well, I think we're better financial managers then the county to be honest with you. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Mike, you were going to say? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-You asked which quarter is the highest quarter, Dave. In the last four years, your third quarter has been the highest quarter. MR. KENNY-Right. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Which is, let's see, I've got to think of this because you maybe, you're thinking from a business way and the town way is a little different. MR. KENNY-Well, it would be nice to have all of that money January first, would be my impression. If! was running a business, I'd like to have all the money up front and get interest on it all year long. Have it in a fund account, you would really know where your money is. You're not costing the Queensbury taxpayers any more money, that's all I'm saying. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Yea, I understand it. MR. KENNY-It's a switch. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -I think MR. KENNY-I pay my county tax January first and it's over four dollars in assessed thousand. I pay Queensbury taxes January first, it's like twenty-seven cents, I think it was last year, something like that. I'd rather pay the four fifty to Queensbury and nothing to the county. That would be mine SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Alright, okay, let me tell you one other thing. Your point was that we need surplus accounting so that you can watch what's happening year by year as far as the surplus and how, whether it's going down or going up. And I think also the town needs a surplus, long term town plan MR. KENNY-I agree. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Because we can't control whether surpluses will come or not, totally, it's somewhat a fickle with the sales tax. But when it does come in, there should be some priorities set and part of the Department of Public Utilities was to control certain capital projects under the Town Board and to enable to make it a long term capital projects plan that the Board would commit to and do some of itself or contract other, whatever it wanted to do. But, start to make long term plans so that when you get a big windfall, you don't suddenly say, well, we need something that we really didn't need. In other words, there should be a commitment, a long term commitment by the town, thought through of what it's priorities are on projects. MR. KENNY-I mean that's my, my main point is, I really think the town is going to run fiscally responsible, the sales tax are going to come in but the problem is, my county tax is going to go up to six, seven, eight dollars per thousand in the next four or five years because of the State mandates and I have no control over that. The Town of Queensbury I think possibly could help offset that with the sales tax staying there and I would know where my dollars are being spent. I don't know where my dollars are being spent totally in this budget like you say because you don't know exactly how much is coming in, it's a guesstimate on the sales tax. I'd rather have this, now that the taxes in the county are so high, I'd rather have this budget a close to fixed as possible document. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Dave, it's the same thing on your expenses. Your expenses are a guesstimate too. You do the best you could MR. KENNY-I realize that but they're adjustable at times. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-This budget has to be put together so early under the State regulation that you don't have your good projections for the year that your in right now even. And so it has to be a guesstimate, we don't know what kind of Winter we're going to have. We don't know what snow plowing is going to cost. MR. KENNY-It's just a point, okay, of reference. I just think, I know years ago, I think it should be re- examined but even if it stays the way it is, I would like to see the surplus fund, how it is changing and I'd like the public to know part of that ... like you had mentioned. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-You know, I will you another time I remember it was a, that it was a dam good thing we had a surplus. When Willy Nilly the Federal Government took revenue sharing away and the State has done the same thing and there's been lots of times if we hadn't had that surplus, we would have been in bad straight. Not from anything we could control because the Federal and State decided they weren't going to share the money any longer and with no notice. MR. KENNY-Yea, but one thing, okay. You know, what I like in Queensbury and I think it's true, the Queensbury Town Board and the Town of Queensbury has protected the citizens of Queensbury and they don't protect the citizens of Queensbury just against what the town does. You also represent me in Warren County and I do pay an awful lot of taxes to Warren County and they're uncontrollable. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-There's one thing I wanted to ask you about that because there's some discussion that I'm picking up in the newspaper about going to an eight percent sales tax and I think that could be very difficult for Queensbury retail where I don't think it makes much difference in Lake George but I guess it makes one big difference in Queensbury. MR. KENNY -You picked this up in the, I haven't heard this yet so this is news to me. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yea, it was in the paper and I agree with Mike, I think it would be a dumb foolish thing to do. MR. KENNY-Today? Today's paper? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-You've got to start reading the paper Dave ... MR. SAL V ADOR- Why doesn't it make much difference in Lake George? SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Well, I'm talking about the village and the transient and the, it was Tessier that was saying it and he was saying, well, you know, get the transient coming in to pay some of the local taxes. But Holy God, look what that would do in Queensbury retail, it would move to Wilton possibly and we could lose alot of taxes in the process. MR. SALVADOR-My guests are going to move some place else because we charge eight percent. They're not going to do that are they? SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Well, I, you know, certainly they will, certainly they can. I think it's something that really better be discussed and I think the community better be thinking about it because MR. KENNY-I would agree with you. I mean it's been discussed about it in the past about a bed tax, about doing this tax or that tax. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-One thing that Dave said that was interesting. You have the experience from fourteen years ago but in that fourteen years the mandated services are what might have thrown thing off. I mean, it's worth taking a look at it. MR. KENNY-That's all I'm saying. I mean the mandated services by the county, I mean it would be different if! didn't, if the Town of Queensbury didn't give. What we do is take four million dollars in sales tax from the county and tell our tax payers to give Warren County back four and a half million dollars in taxes. That's what we're doing today. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-You know, in the end the real answer COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But in the end you would be giving it to us. So, I mean the same MR. KENNY-I'd rather give it to the Town of Queensbury, you would have a solid budget. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-The same tax dollars are going to come out of your pocket. MR. KENNY-That's what I'm saying. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -I'll tell you, the real answers is discussing health care on a national level and coming to a consensus because that's what the MR. KENNY-That's another whole picture. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-That's the problem. MR. KENNY-But all I'm saying with the dollar figures, what we're doing is taking money from the county and telling our taxpayers to give it back. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Right. MR. KENNY -And I realize it takes alot by a Board to say, well, we're charging you five dollars in assessed thousand instead of twenty-seven cents. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, I think MR. KENNY-But the people would also, you would have better government, I think if the people of Queensbury knew they were paying four fifty a thousand or five dollars a thousand rather then twenty- seven cents a thousand or forty cents a thousand, I think you would have more people involved with budget and more people involved in the tune of what's going on in the Town of Queensbury which would make better government. I'm a believer in having as many people here at this Town Board meetings and open frank discussions, so everybody knows what the people want rather than wait. You know, I've been to alot of Town Board meetings. I was happy Monday night when I saw a full meeting hall here. If we had a full meeting here every Monday on all the Town Board meetings, we would see alot better government. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I agree with you Dave. MR. KENNY-I come to Town Board meetings and there's two people out here all year long and all of sudden, something's important and there's a couple hundred. Well, why don't we have a couple hundred every week? You people up there that are elected by us would know what we want. COUNCILMAN TUCKER-Dave, I got just one question for you. The county gets the sales tax and then they spend all the sales tax on anything they want to. MR. KENNY-They still have to have a budget. COUNCILMAN TUCKER-Wait a minute. Then what happens? MR. KENNY-They still have a, no, the budget wouldn't change. Their budget, you're budget doesn't change, where their revenue would change. Revenue has nothing to do with, like your budget here is your budget of what you're going to spend. Then you have a revenue budget. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Dave, what would, what would MR. KENNY-Instead of the revenue coming from us as taxpayers, it would come from sales tax. Instead of your revenue coming from the sales tax it would come from us as taxpayers. That would be the only change. COUNCILMAN TUCKER-You know, it used to be done this way, right? MR. KENNY-Right but at that point in time, I believe COUNCILMAN TUCKER-No. MR. KENNY-The difference was the county didn't have the budgets they have today. COUNCILMAN TUCKER-And at that point MR. KENNY-They didn't have the State mandates they have today. COUNCILMAN TUCKER-And at that point in time we had the situation where it wasn't him worth a dam a county, they just spent the money and still raised taxes, the amount of taxes you had to pay and that's why the Board decided to take the sales tax here. MR. KENNY - I find that hard to believe but COUNCILMAN TUCKER-Well, it ain't hard to believe, look at it. MR. KENNY-I wasn't here so, I find that hard to believe. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I think Pliney makes the point and I think he's right. You give the county four million, they're still going to put another tax on MR. KENNY-I'm giving them four million now. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But what he's saying is they would also put a property tax on you because the more you give them, the more they're going to spend and that's why we decided they're going to have to go the hard route. Believe me, that's what was happening. MR. KENNY-Then they have to change the whole budget for the whole county. Alot of other COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But that's how they would arrive at their budget in the first place. They would say, okay, we got all this money in sales tax to spend, on top of that we're going to tax every municipality so much. That gets more, it builds up their pot and that's when they're going to spend. Believe me, it's what it's going to spend. MR. KENNY-Well, I hope the people I voted that we're saying is there, they're not ethical at all now, I don't believe that's the case. Okay, so let's not even, you know, put COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well, I will tell you. Assessors in this town for years have gotten mad because the schools call up and find out what's the tax base trying to figure out how much money they could spend in their budget. COUNCILMAN TUCKER-Look at the re-val. Where did your school taxes goes this year? And they shouldn't have but they did. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That's the reality. That's the reality Dave. MR. KENNY-That's a State issue again. That's a State issue with putting a value on one because we have different school districts within the Town of Queensbury and that's a problem but that's not COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, it's the way they do their budgets and they figure MR. KENNY-But I don't, Betty, okay COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-They figure they can spend as much as they can get a hold of. MR. KENNY-If the county operates that way, we should vote them all out of office. If they're saying, if they get money, they're just going to spend it. I don't, I do think they have to do an income and expense budget and when they do their expense budget, that's how they get their income, to match it. They don't say, well, we have this much money so let's spend this much money. We're not giving them any more money. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Do you want to bet? MR. KENNY-Betty, they would have less money still. What I'm paying now is more then the sales tax brings into them. I know, I know people are aware of that. Warren County, the total money generated by Warren County taxes are more then the sales tax that comes in. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I realize that, I realize that. That was a conscience decision made years ago figuring that was the way to get the, you get the tightest return for you dollar. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-I don't want to stay on this all night, let's MR. KENNY-Right, I don't either, right. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-We're here for the public and MR. KENNY-But I would like to see the budget include the surplus fund, that's my main, that was my mam SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Yea and I think that's a good addition and we'll ask that it does. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I think it's a good idea, thank you. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Okay, anyone else? MR. JOHN CORDES-My name is John Cordes. I'd like to urge the Board to keep the concept of the Public Utilities Department in the budget. I hope the new Board does the same. I think that it was touched on we'd like, mentioned that we need an engineering services in this town. It was touched on earlier but that was the tip of the iceberg. This facility here when it was built, soon after it was built, we were in conflict with construction people and architects because we had amateurs dealing with these people. Architects and construction firms are experts and we need our own expert to keep track of these people with the capital funds that we're going to be spending in the future. And I'd like to urge that we continue this public works department with a real competent engineer. Thank you. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- Thank you. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Thank you. Anyone else? Well, I certainly, I think that we ought to schedule some workshops now with the Town Board and invite the new Board members in and get a formal discussion going and really beat up on this thing and see what you guys think. I'm going away for a few days to Texas and I'll be back on the 9th or the 10th and right after that, I'd be very willing to meet and it may take several meetings. I certainly am willing to put the time in on it and try to make a smooth transition and structure things so it goes well. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- The first meeting MR. SALVADOR-Are those considered public meetings? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Sure. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Oh yea, oh yea. MR. SALVADOR-Will they be announced? SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Yes, absolutely. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- The fire department is scheduled for the 10th. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Yea, I think we are talking with the fire departments on the 10th and beyond that, let's get together COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Are you back by the 10th? MR. FRED CHAMPAGNE-I'm going to be gone all of next week, I'll be back a week from Saturday. So, that Monday, I don't recall the date, that Monday, it's our plan that the new Board would get together during that first part of that week and begin to put our game plan together. And if possible, I'd think we would like to wait until such time that we can be a part of the fire negotiation, if that's at all possible. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-That's going to be very tight because the 20th we've got to MR. CHAMP AGNE- That's true too. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-We've got to have it all finished. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I think, I think there's just about enough time to do that though, Mike, if we met maybe on that Tuesday after the Monday COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Well, what are we talking about here, the 16th? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Meeting with the fire companies and having the members of the new Board there too. Before the 16th, Nick COUNCILMAN TUCKER-That's alot to hash out in that short time. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Boy that's a COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It's before the 16th. Next Monday is the 8th. Let's see, I don't have my calendar here. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-I would think we would be smart to go ahead with the fire service and anybody that wants to be there, be there. But I think that's just going to get down to a tough negotiation of whether the town wants to raise more taxes on fire or they don't and whether the fire services should be building surpluses towards new equipment at a certain rate. I think that's what that discussion is going to be about. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Mike, I would ask that all the fire companies bring their financial statements for two years. I'm not just talking their budget, their true financial statements on their budgets for 93 and 94. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-I know that many of them have new buildings and they have mortgages and those mortgage payments will be declining as they go and I think that, my feeling is that they may have to do without quite as much accumulation right now and then it will pick up, a little more next year and alot more the year after as I understand it. But we took a conscience decision to help North Queensbury get a new fire building because they were not in compliance with OSHA standards and frankly, there some hazards there. And I think it was the right answer, we did the right thing I believe and at the time we talked to all the fire companies, it was generally agreed that they would cut back and maybe that's what's got to happen. But that's going to be a consensus decision, that's COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-You're back on the 15th so the first meeting is the 16th. MR. CHAMP AGNE- That's right. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-I don't mind having a whole bunch of meetings that week, you know, to beat up this thing and try and get it in order. COUNCILMAN GOETZ-Are you suggesting instead of the 10th? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-No, no. I think Mike is right, I think we should go ahead with that because that's a SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Get that behind us and COUNCILMAN TUCKER-That isn't all going to happen on the 10th, anyway, I don't believe, it's going to be ... COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-No, that's why is important to have that meeting. MR. GEORGE WISWALL-You're going to meet with the fire departments on the 10th? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Right. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Yes. MR. WISW ALL-Okay, I can make the 10th. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Okay, loved to have you there. Okay, any other comments or questions or input? Paul. ATTORNEY DUSEK-Just one comment. On the 20th is, I know you're already aware the 20th is a critical date but I'd also like just to indicate that there is a real problem if the 20th date is not met and that is that the preliminary budget goes in as it was. So, if you SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Okay, I think we can make it. I think it's, we'll make it. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It happens that the 20th is a Saturday morning so we could ATTORNEY DUSEK-All Friday night. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Bunk in. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Right. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-The 20th is what, a Saturday morning? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- Yes. COUNCILMAN TUCKER-Yea. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Does that mean we have until Monday? ATTORNEY DUSEK-No, well COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Now, wait a minute, income tax, you know how that works and all that kind of stuff. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Well, it doesn't matter. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It doesn't matter, we'll be done that week. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-I don't want to work on it Sunday night, if I can avoid it. COUNCILMAN TUCKER-I don't want to work on a Saturday. ATTORNEY DUSEK-I can check that but I'll tell you, I'd encourage you not to try to use that. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But I'mjust saying, if we do get in a real tight thing. ATTORNEY DUSEK-I'll check it out. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-If we can't settle it Saturday, it's tough. Then I'll close the public hearing ... do you want to speak, come on up. MR. MIKE LOPEZ-Do we still have that meeting set, right? SUPERVISOR BRANDT-I'm sorry, I'm not understanding. MR. LOPEZ-We still have that meeting set for the 15th, right? COUNCILMAN GOETZ-What meeting is this? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-What meeting is that? MR. LOPEZ-No, I just, I just wonder, how many are, is this still, how many employees are going to be involved with this? Is there any or not at all? COUNCILMAN GOETZ-What meeting are you talking about? SUPERVISOR BRANDT-To have a meeting with the Board and the employees, the Union? MR. LOPEZ-Yea. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -I think it would make alot of sense to have one and you know, we've talked about it and we need to show you what we're doing so you know exactly where we are. MR. LOPEZ-Okay. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -But we certainly need some dialogue with the new administration because they've got, you know, there's some discussions that have to be made and they're not fun, I know that and I'll gladly work with you in making them. That's all I can say. Okay. MR. CHAMPAGNE-We can't do anything until a week from Saturday, that's the bottom line. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Right, right. MR. CHAMPAGNE-At that point on, we'll do the best we can until the 20th. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Right and then maybe as that's going, we'll pull the meeting with the Union leaders or the, you know, the representatives from all the departments and sit down and explain where we are. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Okay. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Okay? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- Yes. MR. CHAMPAGNE-Can I ask you what his concern is, I understand SUPERVISOR BRANDT-His concern is layoffs, any layoffs whatsoever. MR. CHAMPAGNE-Okay, it's not dollar amounts, it's layoffs? SUPERVISOR BRANDT -It's layoffs, period and you know, it's a question of attrition versus laying off and I think we need to address that and I think we can. Okay? MR. GENE LASHWAY -Mr. Brandt? SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Yes. MR. LASHWAY-Don't you think that all the employees ought to be included in that discussion, instead of just the Union leaders? SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Well, that's up to you guys to decide and maybe we can have a broader MR. LASHWAY -You've had meetings with them down in the backyard and we were never informed about it. There's eleven us that were never told about it. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-You're saying I had meetings with Union leaders, no I MR. LASHWAY-Last week you were down in the backyard with all the men from the Highway Department. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-I tried to MR. LASHWAY -Eleven Highway employees were never told about it. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Well, that could be. What I did is I waited at the door to tell them that essentially what I knew and give them whatever facts I had. They weren't selected. MR. LASHWAY-The Union knew about it the day before. SUPERVISOR BRANDT -Pardon me? MR. LASHWAY-The Union knew about it the day before. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Well, I don't know that. MR. LASHWAY - I do because I was one that wasn't included. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-Well, it certainly wasn't exclusive, there were many people that walked away that didn't want to take part in it. I have no problem with talking with all of the employees. MR. LASHWAY - I think all the town employees should be at the meeting. SUPERVISOR BRANDT-That's fine. Okay, any other input? Then I'm going to close the public hearing. Thank you. PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED 8:05 P.M. Attorney Dusek - I have just a couple of things that I need the Board for. We talked about the rabies vaccine. Dr. Evans called and said that he wanted us to know, the county said they could do the full shot series for one hundred and five dollars per person. He has to charge us twelve hundred dollars per person. His question was, do we really want to get out of that indemnification clause that bad. And when I had spoken to you I thought it was going to be the same at both places. Town Board held discussion and the following resolution was proposed: RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING RABIES VACCINATION RESOLUTION NO. 649, 93 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. Michel Brandt WHO MOVED FOR IT'S ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mr. Nick Caimano WHEREAS, the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury is desirous of arranging for rabies vaccinations through the County for certain Town employees who are desirous of receiving the same, NOW, THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED, the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby authorizes the Town Supervisor to execute a contract with the County which it is understood said contract contains certain indenmification clauses and other provisions previously discussed, and BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that upon execution of the contract that the same will be paid for from the appropriate account, and BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that the rabies vaccination shall be made available to employees that have been trained and are handling wild animals in the course of Town business, and BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that the amount shall not exceed $2,000.00, and BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, if the shots per person are more than a $100.00 with Dr. Evans as opposed to the County, then go to the County. Duly adopted this 4th day of November, 1993, by the following vote: AYES: Mrs. Monahan, Mrs. Goetz, Mr. Caimano, Mr. Tucker, Mr. Brandt NOES: None ABSENT: None RESOLUTION CALLING FOR EXECUTIVE SESSION RESOLUTION NO. 650, 93 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. Nick Caimano WHO MOVED FOR IT'S ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mr. Michel Brandt RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby adjourns from Regular Session to enter Executive Session to discuss Assessment Litigation. Duly adopted this 4th day of November, 1993, by the following vote: AYES: Mrs. Goetz, Mr. Caimano, Mr. Tucker, Mrs. Monahan, Mr. Brandt NOES: None ABSENT: None No further action was taken. On motion, the meeting was adjourned. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED, DARLEEN M. DOUGHER TOWN CLERK TOWN OF QUEENSBURY