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1995-02-15 - S SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING FEBRUARY 15, 1995 1:05 P.M. MTG#1O BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT SUPERVISOR FRED CHAMPAGNE COUNCILMAN BETTY MONAHAN (entered meeting at 1: 10 p.m.) COUNCILMAN THEODORE TURNER COUNCILMAN NICK CAIMANO BOARD MEMBERS ABSENT COUNCILMAN CAROL PULVER GLENS FALLS COMMON COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT MAYOR VINCENT DESANTIS DICK DUDLEY JIM SHEEHAN TOWN ATTORNEY PAUL DUSEK TOWN OFFICIALS TOM FLAHERTY, RALPH VANDUSEN, P AUL NAYLOR GLENS FALLS OFFICIALS DON COALTS, NICK ORSINI, WILLIAM SIMCOE - c.T. MALE ASSOCIATES - CITY OF GLENS FALLS CONSULTING ENGINEERING FIRM PRESS POST STAR, CHRONICLE SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Opened meeting. DON COALTS, GLENS FALLS WATER SUPERINTENDENT-I thought I would just start out with a brief history of how we got to where we are with our system. I think most of the people involved know that EP A issued a requirement in the mid eighties to either filter or cover surface sources. The City began its alternatives for water supply back, I think in eighty-five going through eighty-seven. Started discussion with the Town of Queensbury in ninety-one after a couple of reviews between Wayne Bunn and c.T. Male had been researched and even looked in participation in a joint effort with the Town at that point for expanding their plant. In ninety-two the city piloted a water treatment plant, package plant at our Halfway Brook Reservoir and ultimately the Pilot Study was approved by the Department of Health. In ninety-three the city decided to apply for the State Department of Health Avoidance of Filtration and we spent all of ninety-four collecting documentation. In support of this application and at the request of the Health Department it involved several meetings during the year with the Health Department. It should be pointed out at that point in ninety-three we received a Notice of Decision from the Health Department Administrative Tribunal following or citing us in July of ninety-three for being in non-compliance with the Safe Drinking Waters Act for filtration. At the end of ninety-three we received that notice of decision that we must comply with the schedule of abatement. In ninety-four after our discussions with the Health Department in collecting documentation they changed that notice of decision to revise schedule for a Schedule of Abatement and that was dated 12/19/94. If all levels of the Schedule of Abatement are met then we will achieve filtration avoidance. The new Abatement Schedule allows us to implement these improvements a timely fashion and we have until November of ninety-six to demonstrate complete compliance with the avoidance criteria. The details of decision include deadlines for design and construction of various facilities. If all of the other criteria is met there are several points in there that contain items about filtration if criteria for avoidance are met those items on filtration will be dropped. Also included in the Abatement Schedule is a requirement that the city continue to negotiate with the Town of Queensbury for the purchase of water. The Department of Health gives Queensbury as a fifth source to the Glens Falls System and the Health Department also sees each system being the backup or emergency for the other should there be a disaster. That's kind of a quick summary or history of how it got to where we are. I just like to, again touch on the fact that we had an Administrative Tribunal Decision issued in ninety-three almost the last day of the year it was accepted by the Common Council following the citation in July of ninety-three because that's when we were to have filtration on line. That initial finding by the Health Department told us that we had to have everything done, I think by ninety-six if I remember correctly, Bill? MR. WILLIAM SIMCOE-....filtration plan. MR. COAL TS-In the initial citation. So, that's bring us up to our point. I think to make it a little bit clear as to how we got to exactly where we are today it might be better to have the engineer give a brief discussion on how we got here. MR. WILLIAM SIMCOE-C.T. MALE-Let me just try, it's kind of a funny room here but, let's try briefly to illustrate where some of the key locations are. This is a USGS Map, it kind of covers the general area. The City of Glens Falls, in blue is the Halfway Brook. Now, the city has several reservoirs on West Mountain, Keenan, Wilkie, and Butler those are referred to as the upper supplies and also pump water out of Halfway Brook. One site we refer to is upper junction. Upper junction is a spot which is located on Aviation Road near Mountain View, with major transmission mains come from Butler, Keenan, and Wilkie reservoirs. At that location the city has a building it's very adjacent to the road and they chlorine at that location. That's the upper junction it's kind of a key location in regard to the city supply. Then there is a spot that is referred to as the lower junction. The city has major transmission lines coming from that upper junction along Aviation Road through the Aviation Mall parking lot and to the spot called the lower junction. The lower junction is a location where the transmission mains from the upper supply split, there are two transmission lanes. One runs down through the Crandall Park to Glen Street. The other runs down through the park to Dixon Road so that's a split off point, a major central point referred to as a lower junction. It's the very northern part of Crandall Park near Aviation Mall the back of Aviation mall parking lot. Halfway Brook pumping station is a small building at the base of the Halfway Brook reservoir over by Dixon Road, Old Forge Road. Those are the major locations that we're talking about. The project that the city is proposing to undertake has also looked at each of those locations. Those facilities at the lower junction which the city has already started on a new building with chlorination equipment and equipment to add chemicals for corrosion control.... The lower junction would be a central location to add those chemicals for chlorination and corrosion control. At the upper junction the proposal is to add new chemical feed equipment so that the city can use chlorine dioxide as a disinfecting agent. It has also been proposed that chemicals are added there for PH adjustment. It's proposed that similar facilities for adding the chlorine dioxide and PH adjustment be located at Halfway Brook pumping station at the base of the Halfway Brook reservoir. The distribution storage is proposed at the city's lower junction which is right at the very northern part of the Crandall Park and Aviation Mall. It's just a two point....gallon tanks and these tanks would serve two purposes. One, they would provide the contact time that's required for disinfection under the surface water treatment regulations for filtration avoidance. Secondly, it would provide distribution storage of a day's supply for the City of Glens Falls. Additionally a new transmission main is proposed from the Halfway Brook reservoir over to this tank site so that water can be pumped from the Halfway Brook reservoir treated with chlorine dioxide with the proper disinfection contact time go through the lower junction for corrosion control....and into the distribution system. Also associated with the project the city is installing some automated valves at the upper and lower junction, also putting in some auxiliary power some instrumentation and controls. These are going to allow the city to isolate each of their sources so that if a case that there is a water quality problem at any particular source that source could be isolated to help the city meet the filtration avoidance criteria. All of this proposed project these components are to meet the filtration avoidance criteria, but also...that are needed. Distribution storage is needed if the city were to filter in the future, distribution storage is needed. If the city were to buy water from Queensbury distribution storage is needed. It's simply a matter of the city has to have a place to store treated water that meets the State Sanitary Code. The New York State Department of Health has agreed to allow the city to proceed with these improvements. It was after some discussion not all of these improvements are necessary in the event that the city were required to filter or in the event that the city connected to Queensbury for a portion of it or all of its water. The city and the town had discussed plans for a meter pit at Aviation Mall or interconnection of some major transmission mains and there have been some fittings and valves located in the Aviation Mall parking lot to facilitate this being done at a later date. It is part of the stipulation request that the city pursue purchase of water from Queensbury. It is proposed that this should be a two-way interconnection for potential benefit for both municipalities. Although compliance with this filtration avoidance isn't really assured the city and the health department believe given the added flexibility of being able to isolate sources and so forth that there is a good chance for success. The city was able to demonstrate good water quality, demonstrate that they have protection of their watershed lands. These facilities are needed to meet redundancy requirements, instrumentation requirements, documenting requirements, for other parts of the filter avoidance criteria. The city had reviewed alternatives for water supply in the past including building a water treatment facilities and participating in a joint project with Queensbury. Back in 1991 the estimated cost for the city to build a water treatment plant on Halfway Brook reservoir was estimated to be about three million dollars. Also at that time the study had included looking at a connection with Queensbury the cost of that was estimated at sixteen million nine hundred thousand dollars. The city piloted a water treatment plant in 1992 and had updated costs based on the pilot study which was a Neptune Trident Package Plant and the estimated cost of the facilities at that point was eleven million nine hundred and ninety thousand dollars. After that point the city had pursued avoidance in 1993. The City and Department of Health just recently entered into this new abatement schedule. This program is estimated to cost four million eight hundred five thousand dollars, I believe there are copies here of that compliance schedule if anybody wanted to take a look at that. It does require the city to continue negotiations with the Town of Queensbury for the purchase of water. I have also brought with me in case anyone wants to take a look at them some of the drawings proposed for the facilities. The tank site at the lower junction and some of the work proposed at the other junction involves the valves pit, hydrants, and so forth and the propose transmission main location along Dixon Road. MR. COALTS-There are seventeen points in detail of the decision from the Administrative Tribunal. To date we've done nine of those we're up to number ten. Everyone has a deadline every step has to be met at a deadline. It should also be pointed out that everything that is done is approved by the Health Department before we do it and it has to be thoroughly reviewed after an engineer puts it together before it even gets put out for instruction of bid or implementation on our part some of the things we're talking about watershed protection, leak protection those kind of things. Once again this is a quick overall view of what we're doing to our system and it is a system wide update not just bits and pieces. We're going to add corrosion control to the system to eliminate the possibility of lead and cooper being released from in-house plumbing. We're going to add the chlorine dioxide disinfectant a reduction of the possible of trihalomethane formation. Storage tanks accomplished several different goals. Contact time for the disinfectant. Pressure consistency on the system which we have some fluctuations now because of the way we use the systems sometimes with the pump on or off it does have an impact on the system. Treatment area for PH control to give a better base to build for corrosion control and a blending ability that will make the water basically taste all the same. Every now and then we turn on halfway there is a different taste to the system. Also the tanks will act as an area where if in the future the water is needed from the Town of Queensbury for leveling off peaks or as one of the examples that the State used with us is if we had to shut of a reservoir for a period of time and turn on a valve from the Town of Queensbury it would be a receiving point, so in any case the tanks are necessary. The rechlorination at the lower junction level would give us the traceable evidence of disinfection that we need to show under Part V. The twenty four inch transmission main is the strengthing in connection between what we call our gravity source and pump sources. The bottom line is the project is required by EP A, by the Health Department administering it. It's been reviewed at every level and we have to do it. We're at the point where we're following what's been told to us in writing a decision from the Administrative Tribunal that we must do this. That in a nutshell is where we're at, a big nutshell a half hour. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I guess we'll start with our history of this thing it kind of digresses just a little bit. I guess our history of this thing, ours being the current Town Board as it sets now and your council as you sit now started in your chambers Mayor, I don't know February, March. At the time what we said was here's the olive branch, here's the hand if you need it come and ask and we are willing to sit down and discuss it. I'll just say on the side and off hand nothing as far as detailed discussions have been held as far as I know between the two town's. My concern is this, well let me just make a statement. As far as I know from my fellow board members we are still ready to proceed. The numbers being about what you talked about Bill I have no idea what the sixteen nine numbers come from. I do know that this, your faced with a five million dollar expenditure. It is not even if you say, well probably that's going to be the end it may not be the end. If you come with us five million may be the net effect of buying in with us for the water treatment plant because you have other things to net off of what ever the gross expense is. If the gross expense is eight or nine million dollars you have sewers that we covet and wish to buy from you. You have land which could be sold you have a number of things which could help to mitigate that gross expense. The reason that I would like to continue that, I personally would like to continue to go along those line is two-fold. I said it then, Dick I hope you believe me, I believe it today. I think the federal government is right regionalization is the answer to some of our problems and this is a way to get started. We can't force you we had to wait for you to come ask us after all you are the ones that are in trouble. If we don't get together it's simple enough what you have to do, but it affects us. The upper junction which you want to expand as a chemical farm is within a few hundred feet of the Prospect School. It's within a half a mile of our Queensbury Schools. The lower junction that you want to make into a chlorine farm sits hard by the mall. Both of those are dangerous situations which need not necessarily be that way if we as a group of reasonable politicians, town father's and mother's, Betty will work together for the common good. But, we can't go off in opposite directions and hope to accomplish anything. Someone has to come to the table and say, look god danm it we're in trouble we need to talk to you and let's start talking today. No one has done that absence Jim Sheehan who has called me a couple of times to say how can we get this thing going. We're ready to go, I as a former worker with the Nelco Chemical Company in the water treatment business am scared to death of your expansion of what your going to do on Aviation Road and the Mall, frankly because it doesn't have to be done. You talked about tanks, yes we're going to need tanks but if you come in with us the tank could be at grade level on the top of West Mountain supply the same pressure and be out of harms way just like our tanks are now. But we need to sit down with Dick, and the Mayor, and Jim, we need to sit down and start some hard negotiating on what's it's really going to cost. Not sixteen nine, not eleven million what is the real number today. We have real numbers we're proceeding along we're starting to build a plan. It turns out by the way the surplus of our plant is almost what you need. So if you dreamt a little bit you could see that if we could work the numbers out you could almost come in from day one. Now we would have to immediately start talking about an expansion down the road, but we wouldn't have to necessarily stop our construction. I'm not saying it's going to happen over night. I'm not saying it's going to be an easy thing to do. I'm saying it is the thing to do and all we have to do is sit down and talk about it. Before we talk about building more chlorine farms and chlorine dioxide farms on Aviation Road. We are going in our new plant away from chlorine because it is an out moded dangerous way of doing things we're going to hypo-chloride. Your expanding in our town by the way and that's fine if that's what needs to be than we'll stand right along side you. All we're saying is maybe that's not what needs to be, maybe that's not what needs to be. Maybe we ought to be sitting down and talking about how we can do it together so we don't have that danger so that you don't have the expense. So that down the road the two of us can have water that's equal. Yes, we're going to get something out of this too. We're going to get recreation lands that are now reservoirs so that we have backup. We're going to get access to sewers which we don't have know. We don't have sewers we're archaic in some of our places in town with the fact that we don't have sewers you have them you have the capacity. It wasn't an easy thing to do to go and talk to Paul Dusek and say, let's go sue the bastards because they're not talking that's not an easy thing to do. I don't want to do that because it goes against everything that I told Jim Sheehan, Dick Dudley, and Mayor DeSantis. I want to work together and make a regional area. I have a dream of having this North Country Regional Warren Sewer Board of which we are both a part and we both work together. Only all of a sudden I found I'm surrounded by increase tank farms and, yeah we made a stink about the high tanks I know you need the high tanks. But, I'm saying is I don't think you need them there if we sit down and talk about this problem I don't think you need them there. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I think the cost as I went back through the materials here and tried to identify the kinds of cost associated with those early numbers where they came from obviously they had to be accurate at that point in time. I would have to say we're not paying at $2.13 a gallon and Tom you might be able to help me with that. TOM FLAHERTY, QUEENSBURY WATER SUPERINTENDENT-I'd like to make a comment on the cost of the report the cost that Bill referred to in the report that was done in 1991. In 1991 we looked at a regional source for supply. We looked at supplying a lot of communities we have not sat down to the best of my knowledge with the engineers to look at what it's going to cost just to supply the City of Glens Falls and I think that should be addressed. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- That's never been done. SUPERVISOR CHAMP AGNE- That's never been done. MR. FLAHERTY-To the best of my knowledge we looked at a supply in Glens Falls along with other communities as a total package. I don't believe to the best of my knowledge we have ever sat down and broke out if we just supplied the City of Glens Falls what is the cost going to be to the City of Glens Falls. I really think a look should be taken at that. I have figures here today just out of rough figures some a lot less than the sixteen nine and that was just stuff that we threw together in a hurry without sitting down and taking a look at it. I think you'll find it's a lesser cost than what we've been looking at. MR. SIMCOE-In all fairness too, if the city is successful in showing compliance with avoidance the cost is so much lower now in regard to the city's.... MR. FLAHERTy-It could be. But if your asking me what it's going to cost to supply the City of Glens Falls right now I cannot go with these figures in this report right now. MR. SIMCOE-But in terms of the city's project going from an estimated thirteen million dollars to less than five million dollars the city now has an opportunity to have a considerable capital savings here if this works. This project does not in any preclude future cooperation for purchase of water or regionalization. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-No, but it's adding to your expense. MR. COALTS-We have an opportunity to build a system that could work for less than what it costs for the transmission main from your plant to our system. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Could, and if it doesn't? MR. COAL TS- Then we would have to add a package plant to the system or buy water from Queensbury. We're not throwing the baby out with the bath water we're progressing down a path. First of all that we have to progress down because we have a decision to do it. But, secondly at every step of the way not only we and our engineers but the Health Department have made provisions so that if something has to change we could either plug in filtration on our own or buy from the Town of Queensbury that's why they want us to keep the door open. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Part of the DOH letter here number twelve says, you continually negotiate in good faith with the Town of Queensbury. Which leads me to believe and that's all it is, is a belief that if you were to get into some serious discussions of how much it would cost to buy into this water treatment plant now, that they would allow you time to do that. It seems to me that's what they are forcing, not forcing I shouldn't use that word they are encouraging you in that direction to begin with. One of the things that always comes up from 1981 to now is continue to negotiate with Queensbury. MR. COALTS-Because there are a number of people like yourself that want the regionalization to work in Albany. But there are also those who know that you need to be practical in a way that things are approached and you have to have an avenue to approach it from and that's what they've given us. If you look at and look at where they position that on the list it's number twelve, number ten we have to have the tanks constructed and underway and out of the way by May of 1996, with a number of other things along the way to get us to that point. They know it's going to take some more time to get a meaningful relationship open and going between. There is no way you guys could be built and provide water to us prior to construction of these tanks. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-When is our plant going to be built the current expansion? MR. FLAHERTY -We start in May of ninety-five, eighteen months later. MR. COALTS-I want to correct something too, Nick. The lands where the reservoirs are now cannot be used for recreation they have to be kept as reservoirs that's clear from the Health Department to us. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- To you, but not necessarily to a revised regional water board. MR. COAL TS- They view them if there was a backup they would be a backup. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Of course, they would. MR. COAL TS- They could not be used for recreation they would have to be kept the way they are now as a watershed and there could be no recreation. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- The reservoirs themselves not the land around them right? You have watershed land on Potter Road that has no water on it it's just watershed land. MR. COAL TS-But, you have to protect the watershed related to the reservoirs. You can't allow activity on the watershed that could influence the reservoirs. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I can't argue that point because there is no one here to dispute either one of us. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-From where I'm sitting there is a human eliminate here that to me is the most important element that we're talking about. That's why I'm adamant that a SEQRA review has to be done because I don't believe this project can pass the SEQRA review. Every since we put a campus system in place in Queensbury School System we have got the majority of our young people sitting over there with a captive audience for disaster to happen. You have a gas here that's a volatile gas. Nick brought out remember we have Prospect School we have one of the most heavily populated areas of town. We've have two fire stations within that area that probably could not be reached in case of an emergency which have to come from all the areas around. We have the mall, we have the northway, the aesthetics are one thing, you know but there are secondary considerations, it's the safety. What kind of evacuation plan do you have right now? Have you filed one with the town for the storage location that's up there now? MR. COALTS-Yes. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- That's evacuation plan is for the dam not for chlorine. MR. COAL TS- The same one applies. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It does not apply. Somebody has to protect the people who are going to go in and take care of the chlorine leak. There is nothing in the plan all it is a plan for the dam. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-How are you going to evacuate an area of that size? How are you going to bring in the mitigating factors? What are you going to do for rescue personal? We shouldn't even be talking until those questions get answered. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Well, let me put the pressure down a little bit. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I will say we do have some children in the Glens Falls School System. We have some in Lake George School System, but the majority of our young people in this town that could be deeply deeply affected if anything happens there are right there on that Queensbury School Campus and that's only a portion of the people that would be affected there. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Let me lower the pressure just a little bit. I'm still very interested....anything we can to continue to work together that's the goal. My, this individual's council person's point of view that's goal number one. I still think, dream in your case guys that it can happen. But it can't happen as long as you sit over there on the other side of the table and talk your talk and we never sit down together and you say to me, you can't do that or I say to you, you can't do that and then we find out we're not right, we're not right. I mean what if we find out we're not right? What if you find out this isn't the last of your expenses? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Nick I agree with you because again, I'm going to mentioned these human factors. That mitigates a danger to all that population and that is the most important thing that has to be realized. When the populace out there and when the school board realizes the risks that they are being placed under I just wonder how the people in this community will feel. MR. SIMCOE-I don't want to say that there are not risks associated with the chemicals that we're talking about. But, I would say as part of this design process these areas such as the upper junction are being designed to present standards and are really being upgraded with detection equipment. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Not neutralization rooms. MR. SIMCOE-But in terms of leak detection, spill prevention, and other standards that are not current. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-We had a meeting and Don was there at that meeting and I asked this question and I'll ask you when your here. I'm up at the upper junction somebody knocks off that three inch valve on top and chlorine spurts. The alarm goes off, the alarm goes off down in your plant downtown. My understanding is from Don that whoever is the person on duty at that time then calls the maintenance person who comes out and takes care of the leak. That's what I understand the leak would be mitigated or arrested. That's a minimum of fifteen to twenty minutes. In the meantime your several hundred feet in the Prospect School.... MR. COALTS-No more than one hundred fifty pounds. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It's your storage area besides. A hundred an fifty pounds, well I'm not even going to get into that. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-These are the questions we need answered. What would escape? How fast would it escape? Where would the effects of it go? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It depends on the leak. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-We need to look at the worse case scenario. We need to look at it in the concept of a SEQRA review that has not been done. MR. COALTS-We're not changing the use of the upper junction the upper junction is being used for chlorination at this point. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-My understanding is that your adding your going to CLL-2 aren't you? MR. SIMCOE-Right. But in terms of the hazard for chlorine there is not a change in use of that. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-No, it's two high. MR. SIMCOE-It's the exact same hazard in terms of..... COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Just so you know I'm not picking on you guys. Before I ever took office we had a meeting with our own water company what was the first question I asked where's the flag outside so we know how to get the hell out of here? I've spent too many years wearing that gas mask in pulp mills it's just not good, it's just not good. To expand that when there is a possible that it need not be expanded to not look strikes me as being, I don't know what I want to say. MR. SIMCOE-Certainly the Town and City do need to cooperate on the emergency plan which is a requirement by the New York State Department of Health. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Ask Queensbury Central Fire Company and you will find as I asked them as this Town Board has asked them there is no plan, there is no evacuation. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Maybe we need to cooperate before there is a need to have it. We're trying to get the horse before the cart not the visa versa. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-It sounds to me like any future plan for total purchase of water from Queensbury is out can we put that to bed? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It seems to be that way. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Let's just look at it from that perspective. We're far enough down the road it sounds to me as if any future communications, negotiations between water supply from the Queensbury plant to the Glens Falls is a done deal. MAYOR DESANTIS-I wouldn't say that was accurate Fred because we're here. The very reason we're here is to keep the lines of communication open. I think what Bill was trying to say here is that the tanks which we understood were the focal point of this controversy were being located where they are. I think our position is that they need to be located there and should they be whether we went in with your system or continued on the road for avoidance they would have to be there. I think that's really what we were here today to try to address and never to close the door to negotiations. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-By the way I disagree with that point. I want to ask Bill if you come in with us and we have drawings, I'm not going to pull them out now, but if you come into our plant my understanding from my investigation is those tanks do not have to go there that we could put them at grade level five hundred or six hundred feet on the side of West Mountain and run piping. MR. SIMCOE-I guess, I would be, tend to be spectacle about that at the moment. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Why? MR. SIMCOE-We have done a lot of detailed hydraulic analysis of the city system. To say that it would be easy to locate a tank that would serve Glens Falls properly without additional major transmission mains from the side of West Mountain, I think I would not be comfortable..... COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Easy never entered into my discussion. I never said the word easy. MR. SIMCOE-I think economics does enter into the picture. This is a major important location this lower junction. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-But, we haven't done the economics Bill. We're talking like people through a cocked hat. We've haven't done the economics so for you to sit there and say it's going to be harder economically I think unless I'm not seeing the numbers, I think it is not right. We need to find out what that does cost if your in our system. What does it cost in our system to put the tanks in grade as opposed to what your doing now? I don't know those numbers, I don't know if anybody here knows those numbers. That's my problem here we're making decision from two different directions. We're not sitting down and talking down the same road and then saying, well okay Bill, okay Don, and okay Dick, and okay Mayor your absolutely right. I had this dream, but it cannot work you guys are going to go bankrupt if you do. But we can't make that decision we don't have the facts to make the decision. MR. SIMCOE-My opinion as an engineer and I am familiar with both systems is that this is the ideal location for construction of tanks to serve the City of Glens Falls under any scenario. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-All things considered? MR. SIMCOE-All things considered. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Safety, anything? MR. SIMCOE-All things considered this is the best location. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-So you are going on record to the populace out there that this is an absolutely safe system? MR. SIMCOE-Safety and concern about handling chemicals is a concern. The chemicals that we're talking about adding for corrosion and ...and so forth are mandated by.... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That isn't what I asked you. What I asked you given the location and the chemicals that your using you are going to assure the populace out there you are going on record as an engineer you will back this up in court that this is a very safe situation for the populace? You have no reservations about it whatsoever. MR. SIMCOE-The facilities that we have designed we have designed to be safe. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-You didn't answer my question. I can see why you did not answer my question because your not going to be hung on those words later on. COUNCILMAN DUDLEY-We're not really trying to....that's not fair. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-What is fair that we protect the health, welfare, and safety of those people in that area that are going to be exposed to this gas if something goes wrong. COUNCILMAN DUDLEY -Could you repeat your statement again. You have to realize they are our consultants. MR. SIMCOE-The facilities that we have designed are designed with safety in mind. The regulations, requirements for ventilation, safety, secondary containment of chemicals and so forth completely adhere to. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Anyone else? I guess we're at a point here where anyone else has anything more to add? COUNCILMAN DUDLEY-The Mayor mentioned correctly about continued dialogue here. You are our fifth source so, of course, we would continue with you as you would continue with us. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Fifth source? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-After all the reservoirs. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Not in pecking order. I said that the other night and somebody said what do you mean your fifth on the list. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-We might be number one someday. MR. COALTS-We have four sources. We have three gravity feed and one pump so the State views Queensbury as a fifth source. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I also looked at them as one source and us as the backup. MR. FLAHERTY-Actually for us to be your fifth source you are going to have to complete that connection at the mall. MR. COAL TS- That's what the Mayor was saying. If we continue to talk about it we can figure out where that needs to be done and how that is going to figure into the overall consumption of water by the city from the town visa versa. I don't think whatever we're doing now precludes stopping discussion on it. But, we have a decision that we have to follow we didn't make the decision it was imposed upon us. MR. FLAHERTY - I just wanted to make the point in order for it to be the fifth source it has got to be connected up. MR. COAL TS-At a sizeable main, too. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-So as I understand it your having another meeting tomorrow? MAYOR DESANTIS-Yes. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I don't know what else to say. We certainly have opened ourselves up here again, it is your decision. I hate to say the ball is in your court, but the ball is in your court. MR. WILLIAM LOBE-FORMER COUNCILMAN CITY OF GLENS F ALLS-I like to say one thing. In 1989, 1991, we did studies which evaluated the costs of our alternatives. We spent a lot of money in a detail engineering study by a company out of Albany, Bunn and C.T. Male. Based on those numbers if we were not able to get the avoidance we made the decision that our best option would be to build our own water treatment plant. You've said that you don't have any numbers other than what you've thrown together then really as far as evaluating costs for coming to Queensbury the ball is in your court. We've already done it twice and you disagree with the number it's incumbent upon Queensbury to say look this is what it is going to cost. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-We don't disagree with your numbers Bill. What was said before is that the numbers were changed. The cost of what you came up with in 1989 to build a water treatment plant may not be the proper number to evaluate against the buy-in today that's the only thing I'm saying. We need 1994 numbers we need somebody like C.T. Male or O'Brien and Gere or the two of them together to sit down and say, 1994 given that the plant is on its way up what is this going to cost us. MR. LOBE-Right, in that regard the ball is in your court. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Ifyou meaning Glens Falls doesn't want to come in with our water treatment plant we got a four million gallon surplus plant that's going to built it's going to be built anyway's. COUNCILMAN SHEEHAN-One of the things I understand that the reason, I'm trying to catch on to all of the information that's been flying at us that we need to put up storage tanks is the requirement to have a backup system. If your aren't required to have a backup system would it be possible to eliminate the need for the tanks? MR. COALTS-I thought that was for contact time, ph control, storage, fire protection. The tanks are necessary no matter what. COUNCILMAN SHEEHAN-It does seem to me that Glens Falls as you stated earlier has the need and is in the trouble and you have to come to us. That, I'm sure doesn't sit well with Glens Falls thinking about it. We are planning for a backup system is Queensbury, where is your backup system? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Who is our backup system? MR. RALPH VANDUSEN, DEPUTY WATER SUPERINTENDENT TOWN OF QUEENSBURY- Currently the city's hydraulics canceled out Queensbury. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-So we have none? MR. V ANDUSEN- That's correct. COUNCILMAN SHEEHAN-The negotiated business here should be done from the honest position that it's not one side in need or a victim in having to come to the other side begging we can help each other. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I agree with you. I don't mean to imply that you should come begging at all. What I'm saying to you and I said to you before Jim I don't want to come to you and say, hey Jim god danm it you need water come and talk to us about it. We have said at several meetings in several news releases look if you want to we're still amenable to sitting down and talking about how we can do this together. If you took that from what I said then I apologize because that's not what I meant. We have two different systems I'd like to see us work together. SUPERVISOR CHAMP AGNE-I think going back to the meeting in March when we first got together with the city, I think there was some dialogue there that at least left me with the impression that there would be some further study. That the Mayor was going to appoint a liaison committee cause we didn't feel as if we could go out with engineers due to the cost. That this committee would continue to further study and analyze some of the situation you evidentially have done that now through the engineer. The problem to me personally is that we kind of put this to bed since last March and then the next thing I understand through correspondences now we're going to see two tanks parked down in Crandall Park. That does raise a reg flag for the guy that's hearing back from the residents of that particular area. I don't think in all fairness as I look back now it's unfortunate that we didn't stay on track since last March and kind of stay with this whole process. Again, from a practitioner not an engineering type it would just appear to me again, nothing about hydraulics hardly the word but by putting a tank somewhere on ground level somewhere on the mountain up there and getting the same kind of pressure as I do with a hundred and thirteen footer, I realize it's not that simple. Personally what I would hope for is that O'Brien and Gere and we'd pay the ticket, I think sit down with c.T. Male and the two of those folks begin to put together what they consider to be maybe another alternative. I realize your under mandate your under order don't quote me on this, but the Department of Health has listened to a number of things along with DEC and some of kinds of things we're trying to correct here we may even have a new administration in Albany that may even be a little more flexible than what we've had at this point. Given that I'd like to leave this meeting at least with some sense that you folks are meeting tomorrow it may not progress anywhere beyond tomorrow's meeting, but if there is any chance in the future of having O'Brien and Gere sit with C.T. Male I think this board would more than be willing to pay for the ticket and we probably come back and cost it out for you. Can I say that Tom? MR. FLAHERTY-Your the one that makes the decision. COUNCILMAN DUDLEY -You make a point. I think there will be mandate changes at the State. One of the problems we face here and Don and I urge you to point this out too, how they have limited amount of lee-way as to how they interpret and carry out EP A regulations so we seem to be faced with these kind of mandates and so on that's really part of the problem. They are coming down DOH has mandated carry out EP A guidelines. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-The question remains there is always a little flexibility in what's real. We just saw what happened in the Village of Lake George. We're familiar in and around the capital district area whether it's Colonie but open reservoirs are beginning to have a little more leniency put on them at least from what I'm understanding through the whole avoidance process to me that's a big coo. The deal is clean water the very best quality water for Glens Falls that we can provide. You provide it we provide it together we provide it. I think that if we can work through the process one more notch maybe we can come up with something that's equally to or better than. If the tanks have to go there then the tanks have to go there. If there is another way out well...handle the chlorination process and all that goes on down there that's in our favor. We're not here to inhibit, stop, curtail whatever you got to do. But we're just asking is there another alternative, avenue that we can take that's going to make it happen in your best interest and certainly in our best interest. Let me say I'm grateful for you to be here at the table. I think it's a hell of a great step in the right direction. MAYOR DESANTIS-It's a pleasure Fred I want to thank you, too for this opportunity. I think one of the problems I see that we're handicap by is the fact I started the work with some very old numbers. Your suggestion here that we look at further study to produce more accurate numbers, 1995 numbers might be a step in the right direction here. I think given what we know about our numbers and what we've already discussed here not to go with that again would not practical for us. Today's meeting was productive if you allow us to go back and talk about it hopefully move it one more notch, I think that's the purpose of to day's get together. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Obviously big is not always better. But there could be some economies and size in this operation and I don't know that. But, folks like yourself and O'Brien and Gere could sit down and study this thing it may have some value for us and to you. MR. FLAHERTY-My concern is don't make an important decision on numbers that may not be valid at this time. TAPE TURNED MR. COAL TS-And to go back to what you said earlier Fred it's important...at this point because the numbers may have change. However, and I want to go back to the tanks because that's what we thought we were here to talk about today. We all have to agree the tanks are necessary for our system to survive no matter what we do. The tanks on this schedule are the next point that we have to comply with. I think you'll see we have to proceed to stay on schedule. But to keep the channel open as to what the cost would be in terms of expanding Queensbury's plant or buying from Queensbury it's certainly something that can be discussed to see where the numbers fall as we go along down through this with O'Brien and Gere and C.T. Male. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- That can't happen. SUPERVISOR CHAMP AGNE- Y ou can speak to that Mr. Attorney. Your saying your ready to proceed and accept the bids award the bids and go forth. I see some heads shaking here under those pretenses. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-We cannot in good conscious and I see Betty over there and I'll speak for yourself, I won't speak for Ted. We cannot in good conscious continue down this path without asking redress and that redress is in the hands of the Attorney. We have held it in our hands because we felt it was the right thing to do and we asked to do that to have this meeting. But, we feel very strongly that there should have been a SEQRA on this thing. If your saying to me Don when you leave here your hell bent ready to build those tanks which is your right to do. Then, I feel that our right on behalf of our citizens is to continue on down the path to ask for a SEQRA review. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I'll just throw out what for what it may be worth when we're talking about numbers. When we did cost account in detail Hudson Falls saw how reasonable it was for them to come into our system. When you look at the population of the two communities you try to....that money it seems like some the figures that we're hearing today don't match up with what's actually happened out there. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-No question about that. COUNCILMAN DUDLEY-Over the past year or so I've had people say to me you should sue Queensbury over this or over that. The answer has always been this is not really the way we should proceed in inter- municipal cooperation simply as that. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I agree with you. If we do this it would dramatic to say with a heavy heart it would not be wrong because we don't have any other choice. We have a situation in which one municipality will be working in another municipality in a situation that calls for environmental review without the taxpayer or the legislative body of the other municipality having so much as a buy your leave. We think that's it's wrong and we want to find out if we're right. It has nothing to do with giving you a black eye. It has nothing to do with fighting with you, I just soon not just as you do we have to protect our citizens. When you feel strongly on your project it's a major project that your working very hard on right now your going to follow down that project and we feel the same way. I'm sorry that we'll get in a fight, but I don't know that we have any choice. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Dick I agree with Nick. I deeply regret this, but if we are going to uphold our oath of office that we took, you leave us no recourse but to do this. COUNCILMAN DUDLEY-I think that we certainly talked with our engineer and so forth, but we seemed to have been satisfied ourselves that what we were doing is safe. I don't think any of us would want to proceed again if we didn't think what we we're doing is safe we simply wouldn't want to do this. We certainly can discuss the safety issue once again ourselves. As I said, we certainly felt it was safe. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I'm sure you did. COUNCILMAN DUDLEy-It appeared prior to this meeting that the only concern was this visual environmental concern. UNKNOWN-That's really third on the list I think. COUNCILMAN DUDLEY-I was more than prepared to address that one. The other one about safety is something... . COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I appreciate your comments and I hope that you'll appreciate ours. The fact that because of these issues as Betty says we are obligated to follow through because of A; it is on the lands of our legislative body and taxpayer and B; it directly affects us. COUNCILMAN DUDLEY-We're actually paying the taxes. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- The citizens will be affected. COUNCILMAN DUDLEY-When we build the water tanks presumably we will then be assessed for improvements. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I think the aesthetics are important I haven't even addressed that to me they are still down here compared to safety. Safety is the first thing I want to address and then I'll get into the aesthetics after that, but the safety has to come first. MR. FLAHERTY-Bill was hypo-chloride every looked at? MR. SIMCOE-We did not consider hypo-chloride. COUNCILMAN DUDLEY-I would like to point out in terms of aesthetics that the giant stands of trees that were removed back of Burger King so just a parking lot could be expanded was....1arger trees and larger area then the tanks will affect to the back. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Caimano didn't have his name Councilman behind that when that was done. COUNCILMAN DUDLEY-I understand now that there are rumors...that there are plans to run another major access road through Grand Union up through that way. I have no idea whether that's in the works or not none the less though..... COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-A major access road? COUNCILMAN DUDLEY-Yeah. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-No. COUNCILMAN DUDLEY-Well not at the moment anyway. But the thing allowed a pretty major environmental impact. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Yes there was, I agree with you. COUNCILMAN DUDLEY-...They were good enough to go out and do the balloon studies. We have photographs from all these various angles which we would be happy to pass on. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Dick I appreciate your balloons, but speaking of another problem in the Town dealing with volume you really need to put balloons the whole length of where you are not one balloon flying in the air isn't going to do the trick. COUNCILMAN DUDLEy-It's interesting is the number of places where it cannot be seen. The top of dam, Halfway Brook Reservoir has no view of the balloons. The YMCA no view. From Queensbury High School no view. Ames Department Store parking lot which is a concern above Miller Hill there is no view. From Dixon Road, Dixon Heights there is no view. From Route 9, Queensbury Plaza there is no view whatsoever. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It's hard to believe from Miller Hill there is no view. COUNCILMAN DUDLEY-Here are the photographs. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Again, it's one balloon. It's not that wide width. I mean one view what is it a hundred and twenty feet wide? (PHOTOGRAPHS SHOWN TO THE BOARD) COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Paul are you going to have a comment. Fred asked you to have a comment if you chose not to that's fine. ATTORNEY DUSEK-I'm not sure what he's asking for to be honest. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I think what we're saying and I think what I hear from Nick and Betty is that the lawsuit has got to proceed. ATTORNEY DUSEK-If the Town Board would like to proceed the papers are ready we can file them. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-This afternoon? ATTORNEY DUSEK-If you want. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Does that mean an injunction, stop work? ATTORNEY DUSEK-That's what we're declaring. MAYOR DESANTIS-Would that not be premature since we haven't had a chance to sit down? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-We'll wait till tomorrow. We'll hear back tomorrow. The bids have not been let yet is that correct? MAYOR DESANTIS-That's right. MR. COAL TS- The bids have been received. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Do you have a date for letting the bids? MR. COALTS-We have to do it by February 28th to stay on schedule. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But, they could be let before hand? MR. COALTS-Yes. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-They were do in when? MAYOR DESANTIS-Last Friday. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-You have not extended that date to the bidders or anything like that? Those bids are sitting in somebody's office sealed waiting to be opened. MR. COAL TS- They've been opened. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-And you haven't extended the date to the bidders or anything like that? MR. COALTS-Yeah. There are forty-five days before they have to be awarded under contract, but under the stipulation from the Health Department we have to have them let by the twenty-eighth of February. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- The Mayor is going to let us know what you guys think. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you again. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-We'll give you a copy of these minutes as quickly as we can. MAYOR DESANTIS-Thank you we appreciate it. RESOLUTION CALLING FOR EXECUTIVE SESSION RESOLUTION NO. 130.95 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. Nick Caimano WHO MOVED FOR ITS ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mrs. Betty Monahan RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby moves into Executive Session to discuss a matter of potential litigation, concerning the City of Glens Falls. Duly adopted this 15th day of February, 1995 by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Turner, Mr. Caimano, Mrs. Monahan, Mr. Champagne NOES: None ABSENT: Mrs. Pulver RESOLUTION ADJOURNING EXECUTIVE SESSION RESOLUTION NO. 131.95 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. Nick Caimano WHO MOVED FOR ITS ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mrs. Betty Monahan RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby adjourns its executive session and moves back into regular session. Duly adopted this 15th day of February, 1995 by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Caimano, Mrs. Monahan, Mr. Turner, Mr. Champagne NOES: None ABSENT: Mrs. Pulver RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING COMMENCEMENT OF LAWSUIT RESOLUTION NO. 132.95 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. Nick Caimano WHO MOVED FOR ITS ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mrs. Betty Monahan WHEREAS, the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury after careful review with the Town Attorney concerning the lawsuit papers that were previously prepared in the matter of the Town of Queensbury vs City of Glens Falls and also after careful review of all of the facts and circumstances surrounding the Town of Queensbury and the City of Glens Falls including the fact of where the status of the bids currently are and the fact that negotiations can still continue between the parties and that however the Town is properly at this point really should commence its lawsuit, NOW, THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED, the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby authorizes and directs the Town Attorney to commence a lawsuit by way of an order to show cause notice of summons and petition concerning the water storage tanks that are planned by the City of Glens Falls in the Town of Queensbury upon the grounds that the same has not had a SEQRA Review and also upon the grounds that the same are not consistent with Town of Queensbury Zoning Ordinance provisions and be it further RESOLVED, that the Town Attorney shall take such other and further steps as maybe necessary to continue and process this action until such time as further word is received from the Town Board. Duly adopted this 15th day of February, 1995 by the following vote: AYES: Mrs. Monahan, Mr. Turner, Mr. Caimano, Mr. Champagne NOES: None ABSENT: Mrs. Pulver Discussion held before vote: Councilman Caimano-I would like just on the record saying that certainly this does not preclude any continuation of negotiations, that, certainly I felt that we needed to continue on with our oath of office for our people. Councilman Monahan-I would echo what Mr. Caimano said and say that we can move forward in a cooperative manner with the City of Glens Falls to work for a solution that we be the best for both of our populations. Supervisor Champagne-I would like to add to that, that, I feel too that the spirit of cooperation still needs to exist, this action is being taken certainly on the grounds of protecting the Town residents, especially in that particular location, in that area and that I firmly believe that there are some alternatives that the Town and the City can act on that would be more appropriate if you will, more appropriate to resolve their problems, with the City, Town co-existence. Councilman Turner-I would echo Mr. Champagne's same remarks, we have to continue talking to resolve this situation. RESOLUTION ADJOURNING MEETING RESOLUTION NO. 133.95 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. Nick Caimano WHO MOVED FOR ITS ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mr. Theodore Turner RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby adjourns its meeting. Duly adopted this 15th day of February, 1995 by the following vote: AYES: Mrs. Monahan, Mr. Turner, Mr. Caimano, Mr. Champagne NOES: None ABSENT: Mrs. Pulver Respectfully submitted, Miss Darleen M. Dougher Town Clerk-Queensbury