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1995-03-13-S2 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING MARCH 13, 1995 DISCUSSION HUDSON RIVER PROTECTION GROUP ROBIN BREWER-Just to acquaint yourself we're part of a group called Hudson River Protection Group. We are just beginning to form we have approximately twenty-five, twenty-six, twenty-seven members presently right now. Currently we're concerned with Hudson River from downstream of the Corinth Bridge to the falls next to Feeder Dam. Out basic goal is to take an active goal to preserve and improve the Hudson River its shorelines and the river resources and that's basically why we're here. What's coming before you is the issue of the propose park. There was a public hearing last fall.... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Excuse me Robin, but your not talking about the ninety-six acres your talking about the last part the one that Warren County really owns the land? MRS. BREWER-Right, that's it off of Big Boom. There was a public hearing last fall with input that seemed to be going either way different mix kind of feelings. There was a promise that there would be more opportunity for public input before decisions were made. We kind offeel that things are starting to roll. I've been trying to watch for times for public input and we really haven't felt that there was any. COUNCILMAN PUL VER- There is going to be the recreation minutes that we just got. The Recreation Commission the Town Board has asked to put there input are going to have a couple of public information meeting nights. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-We do have a date? COUNCILMAN PULVER-Okay, it is the twelfth. BRENDON LYONS, POST STAR-It is the twelfth. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Where about's? MR. L YONS- They want it in the Activity Center that's what they said per your approval is what Harry said. He was open that night and he said he was going to wait to hear from the Town Board. COUNCILMAN PULVER-So it's April 12th. MR. BREWER-It looks as if kind of what we're thinking is moving a little bit on this without public input. .....Recreation Committee and feels as though there has been decisions already beginning to be made and that's why we really wanted to kind of step forward a little bit and knock on your door, but thanks that will work out on the twelfth. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- There are no decisions that I know of any kind that have been made. Nothing is going to be done until at least those hearings. MR. BREWER-So there is a possibility there may not be even a park at all? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- There a possibility there may not even be a park at all. MR. AKINS-That isn't what we're being told by the Recreation Commission. We've been to two meetings and they told us we have a tentative agreement and that's there is a go on it. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I think that is the key word the tentative agreement. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- Tentative is the key word. Anybody can say tentative. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-We have signed an agreement with the State that says probably, okay if everything falls in place that right now we are accessing the eighty-one or eighty-three thousand dollars the State has. We've agreed to match that given the plans that are finally approved the Town Board to proceed. There are some concessions in there that we've asked for. One is that we don't want an active park type we want a more passive type. We want more walking trails, cross country, that kind of stuff. We got rid of the basketball, got rid of the soft ball. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-We didn't really, no. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-We didn't get rid of that? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No. MR. AKINS-No, it's still on their budget. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-What we said was we're going in here with two options and Harold Haggleman said we had that chance before we took one check. We get the eighty-one if we went with the more active type of stuff, it's all on a point system. Then if we decided not to go with the active we're going to lose points and then the matching grant would be down to forty thousand dollars. COUNCILMAN PULVER-Or somewhat less. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Or we could substitute to bring it back up to the eighty-one. That's what's really on the table right now. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-The Rec Commission was supposed to do studies. COUNCILMAN PULVER-The Rec Commission was suppose to do studies to see whether or not it should be all active, all passive, some active, some passive, not a park, only a boat launch, whatever. They should be looking at all options and then come back with a report to the Town Board. At that point a decision will have to be made, yes we're going to do some of these things, none of these things.... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Before we accept a check. MR. AKINS-They haven't turned the budget over to you that they passed last Wednesday night? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-No. You asked about a date I don't know of any deadline date. Is there a deadline date on this? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I think there is a target date. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-It's the end of ninety-six to be honest with you. UNKNOWN-As far as the park being finished, but when is the date for the money actually having to be.... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Without the minutes here that Kim did I couldn't tell you off of the top of my head. What we did with that meeting with Harold Haggleman and his assistant whose name.... SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Escapes me. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-And the members of the rec commission were there we preserved the Town's options is what we did. But, other than that we didn't make any further commitments. We asked a lot of questions....and things like that we found out what our options were is really what we did. MRS. BREWER-Right, I remember you were at the meeting that was one of the things that you would bring back to the public. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-And where we we're was when we met with the rec commission they were going to do I believe it was the sub-committee wasn't it Carol within itself that would be their chance to start setting up neighborhood meetings and exploring the options of which options we should go with and which we shouldn't. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Mike go ahead. MR. BRANDT-This group was formed we had a series of meeting trying to find a consensus of the people that are living along the river or have interest in the river. Several things have come up and been discussed at some length. Some people that live on the river have found that the average elevation of the river has come up a little bit probably because of the way Nimo is generating hydro it's more interested in hydro today it's probably holding the river a little higher. That seems to be affecting erosions patterns along the river and so it appears that large boats which generate waves are causing pretty aggressive erosion along the shore and that's a lot of concern to some of the people that live there. We think that the Town should look at limiting the size of boats on that river. We realize that boats can be launched from the Moreau side of the river as well as the Queensbury side, but we think it would be wise to start talking with Moreau and look at as a general practice of restricting the boat size. There are people that live on the river that have boats that are large, however, most of those people understand the problems of the river and they treat it with respect. Maybe if there is going to be a limit those people should have a right to hold their boats for a long long time and phase them out gradually that is something that we would like to see some discussion and thought given too. But, there is a very large wetland area on the leeward side of Hudson Pointe and it's a delicate environment certainly this group has brought that forth to our board and I think it's a very valid point. The wildlife there can be disrupted with boat traffic that's certainly one of the issues. Another issue that's been discussed is if you have an active park you have to handle the sewage treatment somehow and that's a very low area and it could be a problem. It's not that you can't solve it there are solutions to it mound systems and the like they are not inexpensive but that should be considered when your looking at intensive use, considering if your going into intensive use. But we like to make the sure that the resources of the river is maintain and upgraded and especially in light of the Open Space Institute work with Niagara Mohawk on the several thousand acres along that stretch of the river which could be a tremendous asset to the region. I think that's some of the concerns I've heard. There is another concern and that is Big Boom Road the intersection with that and Corinth Road is already a problem that should be going to the Traffic Advisory Group to look at when they are looking at whatever they are going to do with Exit 18 and Broad Street that should be given careful consideration to see if that could be straighten out if your going to an intensive use park that's again a problem. These are factors that I've heard the group discuss and I think you should consider them and have them in your minds as you set policy here. MRS. BREWER-I sent to each of the Board members a letter that I sent to the Recreation Committee. What Mike is saying is really so important. I think before anything starts really moving with the park that you really need to step and look at the whole impact of that whole area that three and a half mile stretch. It's such a sensitive area particularly with the wetlands. In this letter we go over several of the issues, if I could highlight just a couple of them that are in the letter that we haven't' given to every single person here. The park cannot be thought of in terms of immediate acreage it's impact will be over the three and a half miles of the river between Sherman Island and Feeder Dam. This stretch of river remains one of natural beauty a haven for many wildlife species and provides much historical significance. In acceptance of a park and a boat launch relies upon the Town's ability and resources to provide adequate protection to restrict, control the size, the number of boats and the enforcement of regulations. Number one, again is the river safety the erosion right now there is river bank erosion in that whole area. Opening up a boat launch not just for a few individuals is going to be visible from the Northway how are you going to prevent further erosion? Congestion, there are peak times it's very congested. It is a very narrow place that is navigable how are you going to make that safe that is an issue that should be discussed. Residents along the shoreline say there are many natural hazards. Many of the piers and sandbars for a person who is unsuspecting of the river not knowing it how are they going to be protected from these? The areas surrounding Big Boom is rich with historical significance dating back to the old logging industry we feel that should be really preserved there are large piers that remain and these should be protected. The big one is the protection of the classified wetlands they are a big concern. Any congestion and overuse of the river would be damaging to their ego systems. The board before the people on the board here forced the Michaels Group not to put forty foot docks on their land on the river in order to protect the wetlands in order to protect the river now we're opening up a dock, I mean it seems a little ironical. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But, it hasn't been determined. MRS. BREWER-Right, it hasn't been determined. MR. BRANDT-It may be an opportunity to regulate and have boats that are of a size for fishing. There are adequate motors for that, you know I'm not a boater so I don't know whether that's five, ten, fifteen horse power or whatever but it's certainly not sixty. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Mike I have said right off the bat when we talked about the Hudson River and protecting it and it does have to be protected there is no doubt about it but, I think one of the first jobs that's either going to be our job or the County's job this is at least a bi-county project here that we have to start looking at. We can't tunnel vision just in on Queensbury because if we don't do something here they are going to do something over there to affect it so we got to do that bi-county approach that's the first thing that has to happen. COUNCILMAN PUL VER-I have a question for you Robin. Is the Hudson River Protection Group in favor of a boat launch with restrictions or are they not in favor of a boat launch? MRS. BREWER-If there is a boat launch it needs to be carefully restricted. I say the size of motors, boats, as well as the limit of how many boats. You need to work with the other municipalities it is not just this issue. We need to go to Moreau, we need to go to the other....there should be a group commission working with this. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- That's why it surprised me when I read your letter at home you want as I do a passive park and then you said will have a boat launch. The fact of the matter is what you just said is almost impossible. We don't have enough people, cops, or guns to be able to make that kind of regulation. It is better to have no boat launch and take that flack. MR. AKINS-It's our understanding that this is the only way you will have a park from Haggleman. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I don't know that. MR. AKINS-He said without a boat launch the state...... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But I don't think they specified the size. I think we could go probably a canoe launch. MRS. AKINS-There you go Betty that's what we would like if there is anything if there has got to be anything it's the only thing that would go along to protect the river. MR. AKINS-From what we hear you can restrict that boat launch as small as you want and still get the grant. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-What I want to say is that area of the river safe for canoeing? GROUP-Yeah. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But, again your running right into the same problem. We restrict to canoeing and if we can't get an agreement with Moreau and those launchers there it's no good. MR. BRANDT-Under State law you have a unique law which gives the Town of Queensbury and the Town of Moreau there aren't many Town's in the State that are named in the law but it gives them the right to restrict the size of boats on bodies of water. Moreau and Queensbury are both named so the State law gives the mechanism to do it but you certainly would have to work with Moreau. We have members in Moreau and we intend to work with Moreau also and we'd like your help with that also. MRS. BREWER-We made contact with them at this point. COUNCILMAN TURNER-What's their feedback? MRS. BREWER-I haven't gotten any feedback so far. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-You made contact with the residents or the political body? MRS. BREWER-We sent a letter to the political body. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I that what your saying is so on our inland waters Lake George, Champlain, and other lakes. I wonder and I think we have to find that out the Hudson River is a navigable body, I just want to make sure of that. MR. BRANDT -I saw that in the law I don't pretend to really know. I think our job as a group is also one of education of ourselves, neighbors, of other people and it's a long term commitment. I think we've got to all look at it carefully and feel our way. Certainly the river needs to be used the worst thing you could do is not use it. It's a tremendous asset so it needs to be used but it needs to be used in such a manner that we don't destroy it. EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MR. MARTIN-It strict me if your going to be effective in turning the political leaders heads in terms of these types of regulations and restrictions the secret is your group is not bounded by polticial boundaries. There is no reason why the Hudson River Protection Group can't have membership out of the Town of Moreau and have those town residents turn the heads of their local board and say this is what we want at our boat launch. It strict me as being that would be the most effective. MR. AKINS-We do Jim now. We have got three or four and Luzerne as well. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Is the boat launch site that's in the Town of Moreau is that run by the Town or is it a State owned launched? MR. BRANDT-Neither. It's an informal launch. MR. AKINS-It's owned by Niagara Mohawk. I guess it's just more or less a courtesy. There is some talk that they are going to close it up. It's not a good launch because it's so shallow you have to put a car in the water almost to get a boat out. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-This isn't the launch that I see when I go up Spier Falls Road is it on the other side? MR. AKINS-That's a State one isn't it Mike? MR. BRANDT-It was set up between Niagara Mohawk and the State. The State it's part of their recreation plan. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-The launch I'm talking about does that still affect the same stretch of the river or does it go into a different section of the river? MR. BRANDT -From the water treatment plant that section of the river. There again we also would like to see some restriction there. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-What you really need is to get that corridor a protective corridor is what you need. MR. BRANDT-The section above Spier has large boats and it can handle large boats it's a very wide section of the river and it handles very large boats quite well. The section below Spier dam, I think are far more delicate. MRS. BREWER-Each of the sections have their own kind of character. MR. BRANDT -We're trying to get a consensus within our group and we want you to carefully consider it before you move and to help us find a policy that helps to protect the river. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-We have considered it so carefully as you know that we have come under rocks, spiers, and arrows because of our consideration. MR. BRANDT-I think there are other issues. There are neighborhood issues really our focus is the river. The neighborhood issues are something that you have to address and balance and we understand that, but our focus is the river itself. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Have you had the opportunity to talk to the Open Space folks? I understand that they are planning some boat launches also off Corinth Road into the river. Didn't you see that design Jim? EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MR. MARTIN-Yeah, I've seen that. MR. AKINS-Will they all be above Sherman Island? EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MR. MARTIN-One I've seen above Sherman Island but I'm not sure about... The only one I've seen is the old one there that I know of that is in that very narrow strip of land there before you go up the hill to Corinth. MR. AKINS-They are also planning canoe carries around the dam aren't they? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Yes they are. ATTORNEY DUSEK-In terms of your communities that your involved in, I can't recall now if this is their's or not but I thought there was a boat launch off of Nolan Road which is a City of South Glens Falls launch which will take you up into that section of river your talking about. MR. AKINS-That's the one that belongs to Niagara Mohawk. ATTORNEY DUSEK-That is the Niagara Mohawk one. MR. AKINS-It's on their property. I'm not sure that anybody really controls that. They've done some things about cleaning up trash and stuff they had around there last year they had a lot of problems. ATTORNEY DUSEK-The reason I raise the question is just to make sure you have all of the municipalities that you want to get involved in this thing. Maybe the City of South Glens Falls has something to say about it. MR. AKINS-I think that's Town of Moreau. MR. BRANDT-Lake Luzerne, Moreau, and Queensbury are the name players in this section of the river. MR. AKINS-The time your taking on that you have to work with Saratoga County and Warren County because they are the ones that are going to be handling the law enforcement. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Yeah, because we don't have any. While they are talking over there let me ask you a question. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Excuse me just a minute. Sterling could you take this map and kind of pin point where that one is in the Town of Moreau. (MAP SHOWN) MR. BRANDT -We've taken a lot of your time. I thank you very much for hearing us out. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Absence this project where does this group stand on the DEC inovated method clam shelling out the PCB's in the river? MR. BRANDT -We haven't as a group talked about it, but I think we ought too. I know that there is some science that shows that PCB's slowing break down biologically. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I don't know if any of your members were at the meeting. I don't remember the last meeting whether you guys were there or not. Just let me say that the evidence that night at the meeting was that PCB's it appears to everyone who studied it the PCB's are leaching into the river ever so slowly from the fact of the land droppings of the PCB's. Most of the people including the Nimo people feel that if you take out the dry take out that contaminant that in time that spot which has not migrated at all will simply disappear. It seemed to me to several of us that what they are trying to do with their new inovated clam shell is an awlful risk to take for no reason. MR. BRANDT-I know I've studied the PCB issue down the Fort Edward area. I have to agree with you I think your analysis is correct. That left for a long period of time get rid of the PCB's that are still on the land get those out of there and not dreg the river is probably a safer approach. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It's just that I asked him a question that night they said that they had tried this up in Canada we won't try in the US....this new case on and then put the shell on and they want to try it here. I asked the question, actually I said is this the test case so that you can prove your point then go up to Fort Edward. They pretty well agreed that it is and that's what brought me to the conclusion I don't want to be a test site not above my water intake. MR. AKINS-I talk to a couple people in the last couple of days that were very familiar with some of the other with people working on the other PCB's contaminents around here. They kind of say the same thing they would like to try a very small area of this first before they even go ahead and try that full area up there so they are quite skeptical of it. They also say even if they disrupted the PCB's that the water department has facilities or can have facilities to filter it out. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Why should we do that so they can play around. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Why should we take that risk. TAPE TURNED NOTED THE MEETING TO BE HELD REGARDING THE NIGARA MOHAWK AND THE PCB'S CONCERNING HUDSON RIVER