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2003-10-10 SP SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 11-10-2003 MTG. #54 795 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING NOVEMBER 10, 2003 7:00 p.m. MTG. #54 RES. 473A TOWN BOARD MEMBERS SUPERVISOR DENNIS BROWER COUNCILMAN ROGER BOOR COUNCILMAN THEODORE TURNER COUNCILMAN DANIEL STEC COUNCILMAN TIM BREWER SUPERVISOR BROWER-Opened the Meeting 1.0 RESOLUTIONS 1.1 NONE 2.0 DISCUSSIONS 2.1 Engine Pumper Truck Purchase-John Kassebaum- Queensbury Central Fire Company Mr. Kassebaum- introduced Chief Joe DuPrey, Captain and Truck Committee Chairperson Doug Hall Looking to replace one of two vehicles - looking at purchasing a custom enforcer pumper from Pierce - plus on spot chains, stripping to be done locally and radios and equipment Councilman Brewer-Questioned what is the equipment? Mr. Kassebaum-air packs, pry bars, chimney kit, gas detector, rapid entry tool, set elevator keys, new fan, gas detector, expander wrenches, electric cord reels, gate valves ete. Councilman Brewer-Questioned if they will use some of the older equipment. Mr. Kassebaum-We are going to be able to utilize most of it... updating equipment that is twenty years or more. List price was twenty four thousand, the bid in the ball park of sixteen. Supervisor Brower-Questioned why Pierce was selected? Representative of Qsby. Central-Noted five bids received reviewed all bids noting a strong point with Pierce was the side roll protection and cabs are certified for safety, air bags in all cabs, from a safety standpoint it is superior over the others and independent front suspension. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 11-10-2003 MTG. #54 796 Supervisor Brower-How many gallons will this carry. Representative of Qsby. Central-Seven hundred and fifty gallons. Councilman Boor-Questioned how the air bags are triggered? Representative of Qsby. Central-If it goes so many degrees within a certain time then it triggers the air bags. Councilman Boor-Questioned minor collusions? Representative of Qsby. Central-No, it is not a frontal impact it is a side roll over. Councilman Boor-What to you anticipate to recoup from the sale of the older vehicle? Representative of Qsby. Central-Not sure which one to turn in...will look into putting it on a web site...or Pierce may take it. Councilman Brewer-If Pierce buys that from you would they deducted off the price? Representative of Qsby. Central-We would have to ask them...our plan is once we get the ok, and order the truck we would actively sell the truck. Noted price could go from ten thousand to thirty thousand... SUPERVISOR BROWER-Is this on the replacement schedule? Representative of Qsby. Central-Yes for 2003. When the new truck arrives the Max will be eighteen years of age. Councilman Stec-Questioned when the other twin will be replaced? Representative of Qsby. Centeral-The next big expense will be the tower. Supervisor Brower-How many miles on each vehicle? Representative of Qsby. Central-Somewhere is the 30's or 40 thousands, the problem is the engine hours. Representative of Qsby. Central-To answer Dan's question on the second engine we are toying around decreasing our fleet to see if there is a need for that number of pumpers. Representative of Qsby. Central-How to replace the tower truck in 2006. Spoke on the repair of the tower truck, needed to be certified. Noted the truck fund is at one hundred and thirty five thousand eight hundred and twelve dollars, another ninety thousand in 2004. We SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 11-10-2003 MTG. #54 797 have not made any decision regarding where the financing will come from. The next replacement would be a 1990 rescue pumper in 2010 approximately that would run four, four fifty. Councilman Brewer-Noted he would like to see a master list of the fleet for all companies. Representative of Qsby. Central-Reviewed how trucks are dispatched and which one is placed on the calls. Supervisor Brower-Asked for further comments...Thanked the Representatives of Qsby. Central for attending the meeting. Questioned if the figures had been given to the Comptrollers Office. Mr. Kassebaum-Noted he did turn the figures over to the Comptroller...Would like to get ok from the Board by the 1ih. Supervisor Brower-Questioned how the Board felt about this... Councilman Boor-Noted it was a good idea, they are on schedule for replacement. Councilman Turner-I do not want to pay fifteen thousand more. Councilman Brewer-I do not have a problem with it. Supervisor Brower-We will have this on the 1 ih . 2.2 Daytime EMS Options - Empire Ambulance Service Presentation by Michael Aquino/Philip Gause Supervisor Brower-Introduced Mike Aquino, Chief Operating Officer and Philip Gause President of Empire Ambulance Service This evening I have asked Philip Gause, President of Empire Ambulance and Mike Aquino to discuss options that I have discussed with them with Henry Hess and Jennifer Switzer in our Comptrollers Department. The Town Board was concerned about day time EMS coverage, six am to six pm coverage. Empire has the Warren County contract with level four service provider for backup service within the Town of Queensbury and Warren County and they service Glens Falls currently on a paid for service basis. I have asked them to discuss various options that they could consider providing to the Town of Queensbury. The purpose of it is to give us a more complete idea of what options are out there and what other services might be available. Mr. Michael Aquino-Met with the Supervisor three weeks ago, company leases employees and provide service in the Capital District Area, noted day time staffing is a problem everywhere. Noted in some areas they have staffed the volunteer squads ambulances SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 11-10-2003 MTG. #54 798 during the day. Noted in one area the put their own ambulance in the volunteer squad building and serviced Monday through Friday six to six. We do not want to give the impression that we are coming in and pushing the volunteers out. They went to leasing our employees to the squad, get our ambulance out of there, our people came in and all you would do was to pay an hourly rate to have the people in the squad building, they are our employees and we pay the benefits, all the squad was responsible for was one payment for the hourly rate. Noted they wear the volunteer companies uniforms and respond in your vehicles and do the daily chores. Empire also does soft billing for the emergency squad. There is also available an ALS intercept which can be billed. We hold meetings with the Volunteers to discuss issues that may come up. Noted for West Glens Falls proposal for one ALS and one emergency medical technician. Our people are union people represented by teamsters. Councilman Boor-Your price does not include what you would recoup in billing their insurance companies in the event that they were insured correct? Mr. Aquino-This bill is under the premise that West Glens Falls Emergency Squad responds we would never bill this call, if our people were in this ambulance this is all you pay we would not bill it, we are talking about proposal A. Councilman Stec-under proposal B and maybe A-it specifically limits you to the coverage area of West Glens Falls, is that true? Mr. Aquino-No this would be wherever West Glens Falls would respond to. Councilman Stec-The total one year investment for the town estimated at thirty thousand two forty based on a call volume can you recall what that was? Mr. Aquino-Approximately twelve, fourteen, fifteen hundred calls. Councilman Stec-I am assuming the thirty thousand two forty that means that is what experience tells you based on after what insurance pays? Mr. Aquino-Correct. Supervisor Brower-You will not pay more than thirty four five for the year. Councilman Brewer-I do not have problem with what you are discussing here but my problem is we have town tax we are charging our residents a town tax if we were to hire another company to go our and pick someone up and bill them again to me that is double dipping, I do not want any part of that. We are either going to do SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 11-10-2003 MTG. #54 799 this in my mind with one price and have the same service because if we don't we are not comparing apples to apples. Councilman Stec-My concern is assume that we are talking about soft billing for the town, where the town collects that, I got to think if we got into that in West Glens Falls that the Town's revenue recover, at least fifty five thousand dollar difference between thirty four thousand and eighty five thousand. If we go with the soft billing then I would think we wouldn't be interested in proposal B at that point we would looking back at proposal A. If the Town was not interested in soft billing then follow B, but if we are going to pursue soft billing my position is we will collect the revenue ... Mr. Aquino-We are more than ambulance service we are also med stat revenue recovery service, noted we have a state of the art billing office set up for Empires group...we want the opportunity to compete apples to apples against another company. Councilman Stec-Does Empire have experience doing business with municipalities to have more than one rescue squad within the town Ii m it? Mr. Aquino-It is based on who ever holds the certificate and whoever does the billing. The laws are driven by Medicare. Councilman Stec-The revenue is the Squads or the Towns? Mr. Aquino-That is a decision you would have to make. Reviewed the Medicare costs and how they must be handled. Medicare has said that Town residents that pay taxes we will consider the balance after the twenty percent that we haven't paid, we will consider the taxes paid for the municipalities as the co-insurance. So, therefore you are not required to collect that from the patient. Any out of town person would get billed. Councilman Brewer-In proposal B is it our ambulance or yours? Mr. Aquino-B would be our ambulance. Supervisor Brower-Introduced Director of Public Health for Warren County. Director for Health of Warren County-Didn't it used to be if a patient went to the Hospital and did not get admitted that Medicare didn't cover? Mr. Aquino-It may not be covered by Medicare...must inform patient that this may happen they may get a bill, as long as the patient has been informed the bill will come back to the Town and the Town can decide to write that off because we have informed the patient that this may not be covered. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 11-10-2003 MTG. #54 800 Mr. Philip Gause-I would say sixty to sixty five percent of them are not admitted to the hospital you are talking a significant portion of the population. Mr. Aquino-Many of them do meet the requirements even though they are not admitted as long as it is documented properly. Noted that if people say they can not pay we will listen, do we write every one off no, do we write some off, yes, do we make payment arrangements certainly. You have to look at each case individually. Councilman Boor-Noted he had calls from EMS personnel concerned with what we are doing, they are afraid we are going the wrong direction. Concern with an EMS squad that is not West Glens Falls, an unfairness the way we are going about this and even a liability issue. If people are paying taxes for EMS and they live in Cleverdale and they are not going to get the service that West Glens Falls is going to be able to provide with the Pilot Program. They pay the same taxes as somebody in West Glens Falls and they are going to be receiving less benefits from that tax. Councilman Brewer-The people would be staffed at West Glens Falls and those people brought the Pilot Program to them and I would not support just doing this in West Glens Falls, if there is a day call in North Queensbury absolutely we are going to answer that call. Councilman Stec-As I recall the proposal the paid pilot program although housed and out of and via West Glens Falls was for the entire town. You can get the same issue saying I live in North Queensbury and North Queensbury Fire Department does not have a ladder truck we are not getting the same fire protection as somebody in Central. The heart of the matter was the proposal we got was for the entire town. Councilman Boor-Two individuals would not be opposed to and encourage the Town to look at consolidation, they did not care if West Glens Falls ran the whole thing. They would be comfortable if all the EMS were consolidated and then look at paid day time staff. Unknown-All for what West Glens Falls wants to do I can tell you if West goes out once they will get a second and third call and Bay Ridge will get a first and second call and who is going to cover those calls if you only have one set of day time people in the Town of Queensbury. Councilman Brewer-Right now you do not have any. Some are better than none. Supervisor Brower-Empire is a backup for everybody in the County. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 11-10-2003 MTG. #54 801 Unknown-I do not think that one day time crew is enough for the size of Queensbury you need at least two. Supervisor Brower-That needs to point out the serious consideration about the concept of exploring pay for service. Unknown-The average home pays a hundred dollars a year for EMS services they are paying a 1.28 cents per thousand for fire services, EMS goes out ten to fifteen times more per month than fire service does. Our Ambulances are utilized more and we replace our ambulances every ten years not every five. I think the residents of the Town of Queensbury if they had to pay a $1. per thousand dollars of assessed value they would pay it to know that they had EMS coverage 24/7. I cannot imagine that there is a resident in this town that would say I do not want to pay a $1. per assessed value, because I do not need an ambulance to come to my house. Councilman Brewer-No one is making the argument that is shouldn't be a bigger program but I think we have to start some place some where, start small with two people at one point and who knows three months from now we do put someone in North Q or Bay Ridge. Supervisor Brower-One squad of two people is going to cost approximately eighty five thousand without soft billing. Unknown-Questioned how much are the EMT's or AEMT per hour. Mr. Aquino-An EMT would get $8.50 per hour, Level three or paramedic $10.50 per hour. Unknown-Version B six to six to cover all calls in West Glens Falls District? Mr. Aquino-We could not guarantee every single call. Spoke about mutual aid plan. Councilman Boor-Concerned with the geography issue, it is a good program that will eventually work but I have concerns with the placement. Noted that Colonie is rated number two in the nation, it was recommend that we speak to Colonie regarding this proposal. Supervisor Brower-If you are going to pay for day time EMS coverage M-F, six to six, you ought to have an off setting revenue. Councilman Brewer-We need to know how many people we are going to need, where they need to be placed this is just the first step. Unknown-We hope to get together with the three squads, membership, line, board people talk about how to break it down if there was a bill for service, based on call, size whatever, then come to the Town. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 11-10-2003 MTG. #54 802 Councilman Stec-Would like to see the three rescue squads get together separate from the Town and let them come up with a game plan on how to share the revenue and then come to the Town and put out an RFP to three or four places to do the third party billing. Empire Ambulance-Noted response time in City is 2.3 mins. Top half of one percentile nationwide. Billing dollars goes to the Ambulance Service. Supervisor Brower-Thank all those attending the meeting. 2.3 Emergency Generator Rewiring Building and Grounds Supt. Chuck Rice-Noted large difference between thirty one thousand vs. sixteen four estimated bids...concerned that the scope of work was different, they assured me it was the same. Solicited four companies and two responded. Will contact Counsel to see if this needs to be bid out. Hoping to get this done as soon as possible. 2.4 WATER DEPT. ISSUES Water/Wastewater Supt. Ralph VanDusen-Re: Gurney Lane Tank The President of the Company that built the tank requested a meeting, that should occur next week. Re: Sale of Water to the Warren Washington Industrial Park A portion of the park is in the town the other portion is in Washington County. We have never had a contract to sell water to them, the reality is no one is responsible for maintenance. The water lines in the park in the Washington County portion belong to Washington County water district, which is purely on paper. The park is expanding north of Casey Road and I told them I would not allow them to hook in to our pipes or open any valves to fill those until we had a contract to sell water to the Washington County Water District. Noted that in the Park every account has its own meter there is no master meter. We sell water to the Town of Kingsbury they have a master meter, Hudson Falls and Moreau both have master meters. The people in the Industrial Park each have individual meters but that is it. Councilman Boor-How long is the water line before the first meter? Water/Wastewater Supt. VanDusen-The main lines in the streets never have a meter ... noted there is a six or eight inch pipe that goes into where Jim Girard is you could have a leak in that line, if it didn't surface it could leak forever. We would not be reimbursed for that at all, it is a concern that we need to address. Need conceptual approval from the Board for me to begin negotiations with the Washington County Water District with the goal of creating a contract. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 11-10-2003 MTG. #54 803 Supervisor Brower-Are you proposing that you service the water lines or they do it? Water/Wastewater Supt. VanDusen-They have no interest, they do not have any people it is a paper entity the last thing they want to do is be in the water business. They would rather have us do it or the Town of Kingsbury. I am in favor of negotiating a contract that we would be responsible for normal routine maintenance, like checking the fire hydrants once a year, plowing them out, cutting the grass in the summer time, flushing the lines and normal routine maintenance but short of actual making repairs to the water line itself or if there is a capital improvement necessary. They are looking at doing in some shape or form, taxing the people that live within the boundary of the water district to create a reserve fund so that in the event a capital improvement or major repair is necessary that they can hire someone to come in and do that. Councilman Brewer-Howald is the system? Water/wastewater Supt. VanDusen-The Industrial Park was put in thirty years ago. Councilman Boor-the lines haven't been flushed? Water/Wastewater Supt. VanDusen-We have had a couple of situations where we have received a call that the water was cruddy and we would go flush it, but if it is thirty years ago maybe we have flushed it three or four times. The hydrants could be a bigger issue. Councilman Turner-Questioned if there is a need for a master meter where the line goes to Kingsbury? Water/Wastewater Supt. VanDusen-The problem is you have a lot of places that tapped off our twelve inch line on Queensbury Avenue and then there is a feed that goes down, Casey Road is a feed, and then parallel to that. Noted there areas that are not practical for master meters. Noted in our price we would calculate enough so that we can hire a company to do leak protection on a regular basis in the absence of having a master meter. Board agreed to have Mr. VanDusen negotiate on behalf of the water district. Supervisor Brower-Questioned if Fort Edward who is building their own water plant will end up supplying Hudson Falls. Water/Wastewater Supt. VanDusen-Fort Edward building its own plant does not have water to supply the Village of Fort Edward. Hudson Falls supplies the Town of Fort Edward and the Town of Fort Edward does have a tank as well. Need guidance from the Board as SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 11-10-2003 MTG. #54 804 to what philosophy to follow. Negotiate a contract to equalize the west side that pays an ad velorum tax and the east side that doesn't. Easier to negotiate a price per thousand gallons for the water, rather than combination of an ad velorum. We will supply water and perform the following services for x amount per thousand gallons. I will begin this process, noted hope to have it completed by the end of the year. Supervisor Brower-Noted changes in the Empire Zone-we have to approve the map with the changes that reflect the three foot strips gone. They are reducing the number of contiguous sites they are allowing. What we have in the Empire zone will still be into the Empire zone. Councilman Boor-You are saying that there are percentages that do not have to be contiguous? Supervisor Brower-That is my understanding. Councilman Boor-I will vote no on this one until I get the criteria. Supervisor Brower-You have got the map. Councilman Boor-Call them, how many time do you think I have called them? Supervisor Brower-She asked you to call them. Councilman Boor-You think I haven't? How many times do you think I have gone down there, how many times do you think I have been on the phone? I am glad this is being recorded. Supervisor Brower-I do not know because I wasn't with you. Councilman Boor-How many times have I asked you? Supervisor Brower-I know I have gone done separately. Councilman Boor-I am going to vote no until I get the criteria, I am not voting on this nebulous package that changes every year we vote on it, it cha nges. Supervisor Brower-The legislature is changing the criteria of the zone because they do not want as many new zones is my understanding. Councilman Boor-I think they do not like the way we did it. Supervisor Brower-I think they were too generous when they proposed the legislation. No doubt about it, that is what they decided to do. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 11-10-2003 MTG. #54 805 Councilman Boor-You do not care how this is done? Supervisor Brower-In this particular case no, I don't. Because the zones that are there are staying there. The zones that we approved are still there, but these lines are being deleted. Why I do not know. Councilman Brewer-Will Maureen and Len have the answer to that question? Supervisor Brower-I am sure they will. Councilman Boor-Are we going to get it before we vote on it? Supervisor Brower-Sure. Councilman Stec-When are we going to vote on this? Supervisor Brower-I would like to have it the 1ih. Councilman Boor-I want the rules to this stuff, we have yet to get a copy of the rules, how can I say yes I agree with this when I do not even know what I am agreeing to? How in good conscious do you do that? Councilman Turner-Does that just apply to the Town of Queensbury? Supervisor Brower-It is this whole map. Councilman Turner-Are we in the soup all alone or everybody else in with us? Supervisor Brower-As far as I know it is Glens Falls and everybody else, but that is a good question. Councilman Turner-The way they are doing things I would not trust anybody. I want to hear it from the horses mouth. Councilman Boor-I want to read the copy they got from the State that says here is how you are going to do this. What percentage of retail versus service allows one business to come in and not another. These connectors what are they talking about is it contiguous is it not contiguous, what percentage has to be contiguous? Councilman Brewer-I would say apparently they do not have to be contiguous anymore if they have eliminated those. Councilman Boor-You are allowed fifteen percent that are not contig uous. I have no idea. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 11-10-2003 MTG. #54 806 Councilman Stec-This may grandfather what is there and then that means future expansion has to be directly contiguous to something that is existing. It may limit future expansions, but we do not know. Supervisor Brower-They were concerned about keeping a lot of land in the bank for the future, they were sorry that they had such a large land bank and if they had known how the rules would change to today they would have designated more properties in the County earlier and then they could not have the same situation. Councilman Boor-That tells me that their eliminations were not based on criteria and they were subjective. Supervisor Brower-They could have allowed more undeveloped land without projects on them. They wanted to wait and have projects come forward. Councilman Stec-Little League-Concerned about we have a contract with them a non profit, they want to raise their registration rate five dollars from whatever it is now to be able to pay staff in the concession stand because in the past they used to get parents to volunteer their time. Supervisor Brower-I think I would tell them no, we are giving them fifteen thousand dollars now, we probably should have dropped that two years ago because the original deal was fifteen thousand for two years, that will help you with the safety improvements. Councilman Brewer-They reduced the rate for the children in the Town of Queensbury. Councilman Boor-We cannot be giving them money if they are making a profit. Councilman Brewer-Right. Councilman Stec-I am sure they qualify as a non profit. Supervisor Brower-I think our contract with them indicated they couldn't raise the rates ... Councilman Brewer-The only thing in their contract that I recall, was that the reduction, whether their rate was fifteen dollars and now it is ten dollars because we gave them that money, was what it was. Councilman Stec-Apparently they have not been able to get parents to volunteer their time in the concession stand so in order to just say fine forget it we are not going to worry about that anymore we are going to pay some kids to work it for us. That is an added expense that they did not have before because they were getting parents to volunteer. Need to address this in next years contract. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 11-10-2003 MTG. #54 807 Councilman Boor-Met with Bob Hafner and Dave Hatin, Mike Palmer and Steve Smith re: outdoor furnaces...would like to have a six month moratorium on new installations. It may turn out that we do nothing, and it is not a problem. We want to see what Moreau is doing and get some more information on it. Noted that they may be regulated by zoning set backs or some other mechanism you can even look at the ones that are already in existence and their grand fathering can go in three, five or ten years whatever you choose. Three years isn't even that short of time for something like this. The issue is environmental quality standards in other words health issues. Councilman Brewer-Noted Town Counsel was going to look into the garbage pickup law. RESOLUTION ADJOURING MEETING RESOLUTION NO. 473A. 2003 INTROUDCED BY: Mr. Theodore Turner WHO MOVED FOR ITS ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mr. Tim Brewer RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby adjourns its Special Session. Duly adopted this 10th day of November, 2003 by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Boor, Mr. Turner, Mr. Stec, Mr. Brewer, Mr. Brower NOES: None ABSENT: None Respectfully submitted, Miss Darleen M. Dougher Town Clerk-Queensbury SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 11-10-2003 MTG. #54 808