1987-01-26 SP
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QUEENSBURY ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
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Special Meeting Held: Monday, January 26, 1987 @ 7:30 p.m.
Present:
Theodore Turner, Chairman
Charles O. Sicard
Jeffrey L. Kelley
Susan Goetz, Secretary
Daniel S. Griffin
Gustave Behr
Stuart F. Mesinger, Senior Town Planner
R. Case Prime, Counsel
Absent:
Michael Muller
NEW BUSINESS
SIGN VARIANCE NO. 1174
Johnny Antonelli Tire Co., Inc.
Mrs. Goetz read the application to keep 1 freestanding sign and 5 wall signs at their
present locations.
Board members questioned the 46 foot setback given for the freestanding sign.
Gary Brumey, marketing manager, said the setback was from the property line, not the
curb. Board members were skeptical. No survey had been made.
Mr. Behr explained the purpose of the Sign Ordinance and said there were far too
many signs here. The 10 year grand fathering provision allowed for amortization of older
signs.
Mr. Eddy said a valid permit was given for a large wall sign which included several
smaller signs. Mr. Turner disagreed with this method of handling the permit. Directional
signs over garage doors (e.g. "lubrication", "wheel balancing") should be limited to 4 square
feet and not included as part of one large sign.
Mr. Turner MOVED to TABLE the application for a survey to determine the
freestanding sign property line setback.
Mr. Sicard seconded.
Passed Unanimously.
SIGN VARIANCE NO. 1191
Radio Shack
Mrs. Goetz read the application to keep a second wall sign on the Radio Shack building
in the Northgate Shopping Center.
Charles Kreider, manager, said he was located at a prime commercial intersection.
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The location of his store at the corner of the shopping center required 2 signs for visibility
to both north and south bound travelers. He had removed other nonconforming signs.
He would suffer substantial loss if forced to remove one of his two remaining signs.
Mr. Behr said that since the store was in a plaza it was entitled to only 1 sign. Other
stores in the plaza faced a similar problem and were less visible.
Mr. Kreider said that his business was more dependent on highway traffic than others
in the center. Also, there was no sign advertising the plaza. Even if there was, individual
business names were not allowed to be displayed.
The Board discussed the visibility question at length. Board members did not agree
that Mr. Kreiders practical difficulty was substantially greater than other stores in the
plaza.
Public Hearing Opened: no comment
Public Hearing Closed.
The Warren County Planning Board disapproved.
Mr. Kelley MOVED DENIAL of Sign Variance 1191. All variance criteria must be
met. Strict application of the ordinance would not deny the applicant reasonable
opportunity to advertise his business. Other businesses in the same plaza have similar
or worse problems.
Second by Turner.
Passed 5 yes, 1 abstain (Sicard).
SIGN VARIANCE NO. 1194
Alice Amoia, Greycourt Motel
Mrs. Goetz read the application to keep an extra wall sign at the Greycourt Motel
on Rte. 9. There are 2 wall signs and a freestanding sign which conforms to size and setback
requirements.
Tom McDonough represented the applicant. His desire was to consolidate the two
wall signs on either side of the drive-thru canopy and place them on the canopy roof, as
per the Warren County Planning Board recommendation.
The Board would not agree to this as it would constitute an illegal roof sign.
Mr. McDonough argued that since each wall sign only had one face and were separated
by the canopy, they in fact constituted a single double faced sign. Mr. Eddy pointed out
that double faced signs could not exceed 24 inches in width; these signs were separated
by many feet.
Board members said there were numerous alternatives. Ample space existed for
a second conforming freestanding sign or a single wall sign. There was no practical
difficul ty shown.
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Public Hearing Opened: no comment
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Public Hearing Closed.
The Warren County Planning Board disapproved, but said that a 2 faced wall sign
on the roof would be preferable to the existing situation. The County Board was unsure
if this was allowed.
Mrs. Goetz MOVED DENIAL of Sign Variance 1194. There is adequate room within
the requirements of the Sign Ordinance to advertise the motel more than is presently
being done. There are feasible alternatives.
Mr. Griffin seconded.
Passed Unanimously.
SIGN VARIANCE NO. 1200
Nicki's Restaurant
Mrs. Goetz read the application to keep a 48 square foot roof sign at the property
located on Boulevard Avenue.
Owner Jim Bowen said he had simply replaced copy on an existing roof sign when
they took over the business in 1985. The sign is 16 feet from the property line. The
structure is 10 feet tall with a flat roof, making a conforming wall sign difficult to place
and creating safety problems for a projecting sign. Nicki's is obscured by the R & M building
to the east which is only 2 feet from the front property line.
Board members agreed there was a unique circumstance here due to the size and
shape of the building and the size of the adjacent structure.
Public Hearing Opened: no comment
Public Hearing Closed.
The Warren County Planning Board approved as the adjacent building creates a
visibility problem.
Mr. Griffin MOVED APPROVAL of Sign Variance 1200 as the applicant has
demonstrated practical difficulty due to a low building obscured by a larger building to
the east. There isn't enough room for a reasonable freestanding sign. There are no other
potential sign locations. The request meets all 5 criteria for a variance.
Mr. Turner seconded.
Passed Unanimously.
SIGN VARIANCE NO. 1201
Quaker Ford
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Mrs. Goetz read the application to keep 2 freestanding signs at the Quaker Ford
building on Quaker Road. There is also a third conforming wall sign. Freestanding sign
1 is 126 square feet and 125 feet from the property line. Sign 2 is 76.5 square feet and
2 feet from the property line. A previous variance for these signs expired in August 1986.
Attorney Jamie Towne represented the applicant. He said the Ford franchise
agreement required that rent be paid on the signs whether or not they were used. Special
circumstances existed in that the property was separated from Quaker by a 100 foot Niagara
Mohawk right of way. Sign 1 was therefore 225 feet from the road.
Board members noted there were other wall signs on the building. Mr. Towne said
the applicant was only cited for the freestanding signs; the others therefore weren't at
issue. Mr. Prime agreed.
Public Hearing Opened: no comment
Public Hearing Closed.
The Warren County Planning Board disapproved.
The Board discussed the unique nature of the property which is set back quite some
distance from Quaker Road. It was agreed that a sign that conforms as to size would
be difficult or impossible to see from the road. However, there is no practical difficulty
for the second freestanding sign.
Mr. Towne asked that the second sign be left until Quaker was widened, as had been
done for D'Ella Pontiac.
Board members noted that widening Quaker wouldn't affect this sign as it is over
100 feet from the road. Allowing it to remain would also provide an advantage over other
car dealers by allowing an extra sign.
Mr. Kelley MOVED DENIAL of Variance 1201 with stipulations. The conforming
wall sign may stay. A variance is granted for freestanding sign 1, a 126.75 square foot
freestanding sign. Freestanding sign 2 which is 2 feet from the property line must be
removed as all other competition on the road must comply with the ordinance. Practical
difficulty for freestanding sign 1 is because of unique circumstances such that the closest
this sign will ever be to the road is approximately 200 feet. If this sign was made to
conform as to size, it would not be readable.
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Second by Mr. Goetz.
Passed Unanimously.
SIGN VARIANCE NO. 1204
Turnpike Enterprises
Mrs. Goetz read the application to keep a sign advertising a drive in theater on Route
9 which is oversized at 200 square feet and is at a 6.3 foot setback.
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Attorney Rick Meath said the problem was the theater had 2 screens, each of which
showed 2 movies. It would be difficult to advertise adequately with a smaller sign and
* should be Mrs. Goetz not Mr. Goetz
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could create a traffic hazard. Mr. Meath agreed that the sign could be moved to a
'-- conforming setback.
Mr. Behr suggested that in addition to moving the sign back, it could be raised to
a 25 foot height to make it more visible. The sign could then be reduced in size.
The Board discussed at length the problem of reducing the size of the sign. It was
generally agreed that a 50 square foot sign could not adequately advertise 4 movies.
However, the Board was unsure what size lettering and si~n would be adequate to advertise
movies without causing traffic to slow and cause a hazard.
Public Hearing Opened: no comment
Public Hearing Closed.
The Warren County Planning Board approved with the stipulation that more
information on setbacks be provided.
Attorney Bill Nealon said he found it difficult to distinguish a movie theater from
his client who owned a go-cart track and skating rink and was required to conform to
the 50 square foot requirement. The Board was obligated to act consistently. Multiple
movie theaters were no different than multiple enterprises on the same property.
Mr. Sicard MOVED that Variance 1204 be TABLED with the applicants permission
to get more information as to the square footage necessary to adequately advertise 4
movies.
Mr. Griffin seconded.
Passed Unanimously.
SIGN VARIANCE NO. 1205
Cinema Centers Corporation
As this variance was nearly identical to number 1204, Mr. Sicard MOVED that Variance
1205 be TABLED with the applicants permission to get more information as to the square
footage necessary to adequately advertise the movies.
Mrs. Goetz seconded.
Passed. Unanimously.
SIGN VARIANCE NO. 1214
Blacksmith Shop Restaurant
Mr. Turner abstained due to a conflict of interest.
Mrs. Goetz read the application to keep a freestanding sign of 90 square feet with
a 1 foot setback and a 160 square foot off-premises sign with a 10 foot setback.
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Attorney Malcolm O'Hara said the first sign was the "carriage" sign. It was allowed
'''-.- 64 square feet due to its conforming front setback. The sign itself was 30 square feet;
the carriage 60. Leaving this sign would be more aesthetically pleasing than a 50 square
foot panel sign. The sign couldn't be moved further from the side line due to traffic
circulation problems.
Bonnie Thomas, manager, said the sign is needed at its present location. There is
no other practical place to put it.
Mr. O'Hara said the off premises sign
change of copy permit in 1981. It does not
so isn't grandfathered.
serves the traveling public and received a
meet the town's definition of billboard and
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Board members noted there were several directional signs on the property.
Mr. Kelley said there was no practical difficulty as to size for the freestanding sign,
only as to location.
Mr. O'Hara said the practical implication of denying the variance would be a larger
sign. The present situation is preferable.
Public Hearing Opened: no comment
Public Hearing Closed.
The Warren County Planning Board approved the freestanding sign and disapproved
of the off premises sign.
Mrs. Goetz MOVED APPROVAL of the freestanding sign. Practical difficulty is
due to the traffic situation which requires the 1 foot side setback. The sign is set well
back from the road which is the reason for allowing it to be oversized.
Mr. Griffin seconded.
Passed 3 yes (Goetz, Griffin, Behr), 2 no (Sicard, Kelley).
Mr. Prime said this constituted no action by the Board as a majority of the total
membership (4 of 7) was required to sustain a vote.
Mrs. Goetz MOVED DENIAL of the off premises sign. Alternatives exist, including
the state advertising panels or a conforming off premises sign. The sign is too large.
Mr. Griffin seconded.
Passed. 5 yes, 1 abstain (Turner).
The Board agreed to reconsider the freestanding sign at its next meeting when all
7 members were present.
SIGN VARIANCE NO. 1212
Agway
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Mrs. Goetz read the application to keep a sign with a 4 foot front setback at property
on Route 9.
Lew Cotteral, regional manager, explained the proposal to create a 50 square foot
sign. The problem was with setback. Warren County had suggested reversing the signs
orientation to give a 13 foot setback. This was acceptable to the applicant.
Public Hearing Opened: no comment
Public Hearing Closed.
The Warren County Planning Board approved with the modification that the sign
be placed on the other side of the pole and raised up to 25 feet.
Mr. Behr MOVED that variance 1212 be approved with the provIsIOn that the sign
be turned to the other side of the post. The Board would provide minimal relief - 13 foot
setback in lieu of the required 15 feet.
Mr. Turner seconded.
Passed Unanimously.
SIGN VARIANCE NO. 1213
Noble True Value
Mrs. Goetz read the application to place a 50 square foot sign at a nonconforming
7 foot setback on Route 9.
Ken Noble explained that a variance for his oversized sign was previously denied.
He proposed to replace it with a sign of conforming size at a 7 foot setback. Traffic
problems prevented him from complying with setbacks, Route 9 widening had also taken
land which interfered with room for a proper setback.
Public Hearing Opened: no comment
Public Hearing Closed.
The Warren County Planning Board approved.
Mr. Behr MOVED APPROVAL of Sign Variance 1213. The front setback request
is necessary due to the widening of the highway. This is a practical difficulty.
Second by Mr. Griffin.
Passed Unanimously.
SIGN VARIANCE NO. 1215
Copper Kettle
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Mr. Turner abstained due to a conflict of interest.
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Mrs. Goetz read the application to keep a 55 foot tall, 75 square foot freestanding
sign with a 4 foot setback at the Copper Kettle. There is also a conforming wall sign.
Attorney Malcolm O'Hara said that a practical difficulty existed due to the Northway
embankment which prevented 25 foot tall conforming sign from being seen from the
Northway. Other signs would be removed during remodeling now underway. The sign
is similar to the Suisse Chalet in that a depression creates a visibility problem. Mr. O'Hara
submitted photographs taken from the Northway which he said showed that a 25 foot tall
sign would be barely visible.
Mr. Mesinger disagreed, saying that according to the information and photographs
submitted, a conforming sign would indeed be visible from the Northway. Mr. O'Hara
and Mr. Griffin disagreed. The point was discussed at length.
Mr. O'Hara said scale measurements taken by Jim Dwyer of Signs of Progress indicated
the tall sign was only 45 feet tall. Mr. Mesinger replied that due to relative scale
measurements, a conforming sign would therefore be even more visible than estimated
by either the applicant or himself.
Mr. O'Hara said this sign was unlike the Sunoco sign across the street. It was far
shorter and smaller. The variance sought is much less than for Sunoco.
Public Hearing Opened: no comment
Public Hearing Closed.
The Warren County Planning Board recommended approval as to size and area.
No wall signs are to be allowed.
Mr. Behr said there was no real justification for such a large sign. The Suisse Chalet
was not located on a main road and would have no advertising without a tall sign.
Board members read the conditions which must be met for a sign variance and agreed
that at least 3 could not be met. The variance was not in harmony with the ordinance
or the neighborhood and the sign was overly large; the variance requested was not small.
Mr. O'Hara asked whether the Suisse Chalet met these conditions. Mr. Behr said
the Chalet had different circumstances.
Mr. Kelley MOVED that Sign Variance 1215 be DENIED. Based on the criteria
necessary, the variance is not the minimum relief to accomplish the intent of the ordinance.
This request isn't in harmony with the restrictions established for the area. No practical
difficulty established to demonstrate the need for the requested height. The variance
is not in harmony with the general intent and purpose of the ordinance. There are no
special circumstances or conditions applying to the land which do not apply generally
to the land or signs in the neighborhood.
Mr. Sicard seconded.
Passed. 5 yes, 1 abstain (Turner).
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SIGN VARIANCE NO. 1217
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Northern Distributing
Mrs. Goetz read the application to keep 2 wall signs and a 68.75 square foot
* freestanding sign at a 35 foot setback at property on the Corinth Road.
Attorney John Fitzgerald said there were 4 separate licensed businesses on the
property, each entitled to a separate sign. The problem was that 1 wall sign read "Northern
Distributing Recycling Center" and thus appeared to advertise the same business twice.
It would be very difficult to remove one of the wall signs without ruining the building.
The freestanding sign was only slightly oversized.
Board members agreed the wall signs did not present a problem. There was no problem
as to number, size or setback, only in wording. There did not, however, appear to be a
practical difficulty for the oversize freestanding sign.
Public Hearing Opened: no comment
Public Hearing Closed.
The Warren County Planning Board recommended approval of the wall signs and
said the freestanding sign should be reduced to 50 square feet.
The County Board was apparently unaware that the applicant was allowed a 64 square
* foot freestanding sign at a 35 foot setback.
Mrs. Goetz MOVED APPROVAL of a 64 square foot sign at a proper setback and
APPROVAL of the two wall signs as is. The practical difficulty for the wall signs is strictly
due to wording. The variance is minimal relief.
Mr. Griffin seconded.
Passed Unanimously.
The meeting was adjourned at 12: 15 a.m.
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Theodore Turner, Chairman
Minutes prepared by Stuart F. Mesinger, Senior Town Planner
* setback is 25 feet, not 35.
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