Loading...
1990-09-12 SP -- QUEEIISBURY ZOIlING BOARD OF APPEALS MEETING SPECIAL MEETIIG SEPTEMBER 12TH, 1990 IIIDEX Area Variance No. 56-1990 Adams and Rich, Inc. Owner: Anthony P. Ricciardelli 1. THESE ARE NOT OFFICIALLY ADOPTED MINUTES AND ARE SUBJECT TO BOARD AND STAFF REVISIONS. REVISIONS WILL APPEAR ON THE FOLLOWING MONTHS MINUTES (IF ANY) AND WILL STATE SUCH APPROVAL OF SAID MINUTES. -- QUEENSBURY ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS SPECIAL MEETING SEPTEMBER 12TH, 1990 7:30 P.M. MEMBERS PRESENT THEODORE TURNER, CHAIRMAN SUSAN GOETZ, SECRETARY JOYCE EGGLESTON BRUCE CARR MI CHAEL SHEA MEMBERS ABSENT JEFFREY KELLEY CHARLE S SICARD DEPUTY TOWN ATTORBEY-KARLA CORPUS ZONING ADMINISTRATOR-PAT COLLARD PLARRER-JOHN GORALSKI STENOGRAPHER-MARIA GAGLIARDI HEW BUSIHESS: AREA VARIANCE NO. 56-1990 TYPE II SR-lA ADAMS ARD RICH, INC. OWBER: ARTHORY P. RICCIARDELLI, JR. EAST SIDE OF CORIRTII ROAD, BEGIRlHNG 615 FT. NORTHEAST OF WEST MOUNTAIN ROAD THE APPLICANT REQUESTS THREE VARIANCES. (1) TO CREATE LOTS WITH MINDßJII LOT WIDTH OF 80 FEET RATHER THAN THE REQUIRED 100 FEET. (2) MINDßJII LOT SIZE REDUCED FROM 10,000 SQUARE FEET TO 6,400 SQUARE FEET. (3) TO REDUCE THE SUM OF THE SIDE YARD SETBACKS FROM 30 FEET TO 20 FEET WITH A MINIMUM OF 10 FEET ON ANY ORE SIDE. (WARREN COUNTY PLARRING) TAX MAP NO. 148-1-7.1, 7.3, 7.4 LOT SIZE: 22.48 ACRES SECTION 4.020 G CHARLES ADAMS, PRESENT MR. TURNER-Mr. Adams, would you care to make any further comment, in reference to your application? MR. ADAMS-Mr. Turner, the only comment I would make is that the answers to these questions will be further explicated in looking at the resolution passed by the Town Board. It has a great deal more detail than what could possibly be put on two lines in the answers to the questions. So, I don't know at what time that might be most appropriate, but it will be in the examination of the resolution re-zoning the tract itself, that that information would come forth. MR. TURNER-Okay. Maybe it would be a good idea to put your map up. Mr. Adams, I think we have some questions, before you sit down. MRS. GOETZ-One question that I had was, in a residential situation, is there any provision, in the plan, for people that might live on the lots, to store their personal items at, say, another place within your property, because this is pretty tight and we all know how many things we get. MR. ADAMS-Yes, ma' am, that is correct. The lot sizes being requested, here, are less than ordinary, however, every house has a basement, has a full basement. So, there is some storage space. In fact, obviously, the footprint of the house is the size of that basement space. In addition to that, it is typical, in affordable housing projects of this nature, that the Homeowners Association will address that problem and, perhaps will, in fact, provide for some storage if that seems to be what's required in the Homeowner's management of that area. With that thought in mind, some access has been left, breaking through the houses there, so that such facilities, could, at some future time, if desired by the homeowners, be put behind the houses and out of site, so that there would not be any particular detriment in the view of this project from the road, but, ordinarily, I think it's safe to say that there's, really, substantial storage capacity, in virtue of the fact that there are full basements in it. MRS. GOETZ-But I'm talking about lawn mowers and things like that, that you might store in an outside storage shed type situation. 1 -- MR. ADAMS-Y~s, in that cas~, to th~ ~xt~nt that th~ hom~own~rs want to hav~ garag~s on there and might, in fact, actually add those on at the beginning, wh~n they purchase the house or later on, there would b~ room for that or there, of cours~, could be some ancillary storag~ in the back of the hous~. MR. CARR-Mr. Rich, wh~r~ would you propose a garage be p1ac~d on th~se lots? MR. ADAMS-This particular Sit~ Plan is shown with th~ maximum configuration on ev~ry lot and it shows th~ garag~s, in place, on ~ach lot, with each house. MR. SHEA-So, ar~ garages part of the design of all the c1ust~r homes? MR. ADAMS-The provision for the garages is part of the design. One of the reasons for r~questing this varianc~ on setbacks is so that th~ hom~ own~rs could, in fact, go ah~ad and put garag~s on without having to com~ for a variance themselves. Rath~r than having 40 pe op1~ com~ traipsing to th~ ZBA and requ~sting a varianc~ to put th~ir garag~s in, we're simply asking that it b~ done up front. MR. SHEA-But garag~s ar~ not mandatory, th~n, for the purchaser? MR. ADAMS-No, sir, they are not. MR. SHEA-And you say that th~re is some access in the plot plan for futur~ storag~, whether it b~ sheds out in back. Where is that acc~ss? MR. ADAMS-Yes, sir. On your site plan, ther~'s an access, right h~re, in th~ midd1~, shown by a dotted line. There I s also an acc~ss, here, on th~ lower sid~ in th~ middle, then on this 1itt1~ cu1 d~ sac, here, ther~ ar~ acc~ss~s to both sides. Frankly, w~ wish to mak~ sur~ that, in the Homeowners Association, we provide, just 1ik~ some of th~ oth~r subdivisions around h~re, that 1arg~ objects cannot b~ stor~d on th~ stre~t or in th~ driveways in front of the house, large boats or RV's or things 1ik~ that. It's very often the cas~ that the Homeown~rs Association will create a small, grav~l parking lot, so that those can be put back, behind, out of sight, the same way with storag~. It's very often the case, but th~re are four acc~sses into that ar~a, y~s, sir. MRS. GOETZ-I attended on~ of the public hearings. There were thr~e house typ~s, is that right? MR. ADAMS-Yes, ma' am. Th~r~ are six mod~ls of houses, but there are, basically, thre~ typ~s. There ar~ two Cap Cods. If you I d like to, I can show you a sample picture. MRS. GOETZ-Well, my sp~cific question is, pot~ntia1 to ~xpand within th~ footprint and how that will impact such a small lot. MR. ADAMS -Yes. MRS. GOETZ-So, how many of the proposed plans can be ~xpanded, say, to two more bedrooms or whatever? MR. ADAMS-In making our application to N~w York State Affordable Housing Corporation, there are two or three parts in the application which require you to explain how to keep houses affordable. One of the bigg~st problems in Affordable Housing Programs is, if you help people get into th~m and, say, it's a growing family, thre~ years later there's anoth~r child or two and, all of a sudd~n, they're too big for the house and then they have to sell their affordable house and go into unaffordab1e housing and a mark~t which defeats the purpose of the whole thing. We've asked Paul Cushing and Tom Nace, the architect and engineer on this, to~ther with ourselves and a number of other pe op1e, to try to design hous~s that can be expanded and usab1~ living space, inside, without going outsid~. We're not very anxious to have houses that Jack built, with additions going on all ov~r the p1ac~. As a r~su1t, we have selected those kinds of houses and provid~d for interior to th~ houses, that the habitab1~ spac~ can be substantially increased. For examp1~, two of th~ models ar~ Cap Cods, which have full basem~nt, fully finished two bedroom, main floor and then stub ends to the top for a full bath and two very large bathrooms on top that, through sweat equity, the family can ~xpand and hav~ the hous~, that is designed into it on d ay on~. The result is that, as that family grows, they can have a house with four full bedrooms and two full baths and a full basement. In the case of the ranch~s, those are thr~e b~drooms starting out. Again, a fully finish~d ground floor with thre~ b~drooms of over a thousand feet and then the 2 -----' ground floor, fully habitable, since, in a raised ranch, it's more than 50 percent out of the ground. So, these are two thousand square foot houses. There's plenty of sweat equity opportunity, then, to have four or five bedrooms in one of those houses. The third model is a small, two story, Colonial of over twelve hundred feet and that's a very normal size for a house, but it also has a full basement. So, that's twelve hundred finished feet in two floors, plus a full basement. We've tried to designed it in, like that, so as to discourage add ons of rooms or this, that, or something else over which there's very little control. MR. TURNER-Okay, anyone else? Any further questions? MR. ADAMS-I might add one more thing to that. One of the ranch models, in addition to being able to finish out other space in there, is one equipped with is becoming now known as the Valenti Roof. Dan Valenti's patent's on the lift type roof, Which, on one of the ranches, in one day, a crane can come in, lift the roof off, put the panels in for exterior walls and interior partitions, and drop the roof back on, so that all of a sudden, now you have a full, additional number of square feet equivalent to the footprint of the house, another 1,000, 1,100, 1,200 square feet, that is really an innovation Which we're trying to demonstrate in this project, Which New York State Affordable Housing Corporation is very anxious to have demonstrated. MRS. EGGLESTON-I of these houses. for the remaining have a question. Your plan is 38, 8 or 10 parcels? The total amount of the grant would cover 30 however, your papers say 40. What are the plans MR. ADAMS-Will the real number of houses please stand up. That's a fascinating question because the number of houses is directly a function of square footages and lots, variances, setbacks and everything like that, so let me approach it in this way. We have asked for the maximum amount of grants for 30 of the houses, Which is, in this portion, essentially, here, with an additional 10 houses, if we can get them on. Again, the resolution passed by the Town Board mandates that, after buffer zones and open space, we develop t he maximum number of lots that can be developed as zoned, Which, essentially, is 40 lots on this tract. So, let's just, for convenience, say, 30 houses and 10 houses to get 40 as a dichotomy. The Affordable Housing Corporation's Program is such that, they will make a grant, up to, $25,000 for qualified buyers of median income and somewhat below, and we will gêt into median income figures in a moment, When you ask, and I have something to hand out, for you, on that. However, it is not always the case that every buyer has to have the maximum grant. Consequently, we have a program by Which some of this is slid over into those other 10 houses. This was attractive to New York State because it allows them to leverage up t he effect of their grant. They can make a grant for 30 house, but, through judicious use of the grant, t hey can get the effect of another 10 houses or a 40 house project, by doing that. So, we're hopeful that we can get 40 houses in there. We want to get 40 houses in there, but the final design and layout of the site will fully depend on what happens, tonight. MR. SHEA-Have you done another project of this sort, prior to this one, as a developer? MR. ADAMS-We have done a number of projects in moderate income housing, moderate income apartment housing, farmers home sponsored housing for the FMHA's 515, Which is rural housing and senior citizens under farmer's home, as well, senior citizen housing. MR. SHEA-Where would some of those projects be? MR. ADAMS-We are relatively new to the area, although we've been in New York City for five years. We are new, here, since January. We're fully relocated here and this is our home. However, most of those project are in New Mexico, Which is Where we came from. MRS. EGGLESTON-Well, does that mean that some people would get less of a deposit, less of a grant towards a home? I mean, people are thinking, $25,000, does that mean, necessarily, they would not get that because your total grant's only $750, to spread over 40 homes. So, the figure of $25,000 is not a realistic figure, really? MR. ADAMS-Well, it is What is allowed, but there are other regulations that go with that, such that the grant can never be used to assist someone, if, in assisting them, the amount they spend on housing falls below 28 percent of their annual income. So, there are formulas that are about this long that do that and the practical 3 - result, at the end, is that there will be some of these funds we can wiggle and jiggle with to help people with some of these others, some of these other houses, which is how we get the leverage on the State Assistance, here. MRS. GOETZ-Would those other houses have to have the minimum income of $30,000? MR. ADAMS-The other houses would fall under the mandate of what the resolution says. They would have to be buyable by people, at least half of them, by people at median income or less and, at least half of them, at no more than 120 percent of median. MRS. GOETZ-I wish you'd use the figure, instead of saying median because it's like you're not saying what it really is. So, what is it? MR. ADAMS-Will the real median stand up. The number that I think is best to use and which is most commonly used by the State agencies, is median income for a family of four. There are median incomes for a family of one, a family of two, a family of three, on up to a family of six or seven, and I will give you that listing, but, for planning purposes, the rough average, going through a project like this, and the statistics of the State suggest that it's best to take median income for a family of four. In the metropolitan statistical area of Glens Falls, which . includes this entire urban area, the median income for a family of four is $30,105. May I give you that on a sheet, so that we can refer to it? MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. ADAMS-On Page 4, 100 hundred percent of median, for the MSA of Glens Falls, is $30,105. One hundred twenty percent of that median, the next number, is $36,125. If you'll skip down below the next paragraph, the average wage in Warren County, as set forth by the New York State Department is $19,000, that's the average wage of an employed person in Warren County. However, family income, obviously, includes more than one wage earner, one and a half wage earners, two wage earns, or whatever. In fact, two pages over, is a page that looks like this, which gives an idea of what some typical kinds of salaries and wages are in the Glens Fa11s/Queensbury area. It would take two bank tellers, for example, to have a family income of $22, $23, $24,000 a year and so on and so forth, that's just simply for your reference. MRS. GOETZ-What year was this done? MR. ADAMS-This is current. These are wage figures prepared about 90 days ago by the Adirondack Regional Chamber of Commerce and they're wage studies. MRS. EGGLESTON-Well, since there are a lot of people in our area that would fall into this category and that, more than likely, could qualify for the, let's just say, for the $25,000 grant, do you build the whole 40 houses at once? So, then what happens to the other 10, if the funding is gone on the first 30? MR. ADAMS-We will build a housing only as it's contracted for. This is not spec housing. MRS. EGGLESTON-No. They will not be built until they are actually bought and signed contracts and the grants. MR. ADAMS-That's right. Until there is a take out mortgage on it, t hey will not be. This is not a spec project of any sort. MR. SHEA-Do you build a model home? MR. ADAMS-We don't think it will be necessary to sell the first five or six units, to build a model home. This kind of housing, is, typically, seen as attractive enough to enough people, where the first phase of construction, which we imagine to be about six houses at a time, can be sold out, without a model home. Although, in some cases, a model is built. For example, Mary Adams, who is the President of our firm, but who, unfortunately, is in Texas on a medical emergency, was the first female developer of new affordable housing designated in the City of New York and in New York you almost always build a couple of models and you sell from the models, but the marketing problem, there, is quite different than the marketing problem here. MR. SHEA-Other than the coverage through the press that you've gotten on this project, what other means of marketing do you envision for this project? 4 '-- '-..,/ MR. ADAMS-W~ll, th~r~ is a v~ry s~t pr~scription of how th~s~ proj~cts, how th~s~ hous~s must b~ mark~t~d and w~ do not do th~ mark~ting. A profit making corporation do~s not do th~ mark~ting on this. N~w York Stat~ Affordabl~ Housing Corporation asks that th~ nonprofit sponsor do th~ mark~ting, to ~nsur~ partiality, in th~ adv~rtising of th~ hous~s for sal~ and in th~ taking of th~ application of hous~s for sal~ and in th~ crit~ria and scr~~ning of th~ applications with th~ banks for th~ pr~paration of writing mortgag~s. So, Adams and Rich or any r~altor, or anybody ~l~~ is not ~ntitl~d to s~ll th~s~ hous~s. If p~opl~ walk up to us and say, g~~, w~ v~ h~ard about that, w~' d r~ally lik~ to know mor~ about it, w~ would r~f~r th~m to th~ nonprofit sponsor, which, in this cas~, is Hom~Front and oth~r proj~cts it' s th~ municipality, its~lf, which is th~ nonprofit sponsor. So, which~v~r is th~ nonprofit sponsor, that's who N~w York Stat~ Affordabl~ Housing looks to to s~ll th~ hous~s. Th~ r~ason' s fairly cl~ar. Th~ nonprofit sponsor has to mak~ very, v~ry substantial c~rtifications to the State as to th~ incom~ ~ligibility of th~s~ buy~rs and th~y' r~ not going to do that if som~body ~ls~ is s~lling th~ hous~s. MR. SHEA-I'm sure that you' v~ don~ all kinds of pro form of P & L' s on this kind of proj~ct. What is, as far as the numb~r of hom~s n~~d~d to b~ sold, th~ land acquisition, th~ infra structur~, since you don't have any mark~ting costs, how many hom~s ar~ you going to have to s~ll to mak~ this ~conomically f~asibl~ and worthwhile, from a profit standpoint, to you, th~ d~v~lop~r? MR. ADAMS-Th~re' s two qu~stions th~r~. We will b~ s~lling th~ hom~s, th~ first hom~ will be pric~d as though the ~ntir~ 40 hom~s ar~ going to b~ built b~caus~ the roads, utiliti~s, all th~ infra structur~ has to be, essentially, allocat~d to th~ houses. So, th~ v~ry first hous~ will hav~ th~ sam~ price as the last hous~, wh~th~r th~ last house has a subsidy on it or not. It's the same hous~, built by the same people, sam~ pricing, sam~ interior, same ~verything ~ls~. MR. SHEA-And it remains that pric~ for how~ver long it takes to complete the project? MR. ADAMS-Yes sir, it does. In t~rms of what our profit is, our fee is set, so that that really has no material diff~r~nc~. We, pr~sumably, would mak~ more mon~y on this if th~ hous~s cost a lot more, but the way t he N~w York State Affordabl~ Housing Corporation sets our fe~, th~ practical result, and it's on the front page, here, but I'll ref~r to it later, is that, as d~v~lop~rs, doing the entir~ project, WfJ' r~ entitled to a f~e to comp~nsat~ for exp~ns~s and, if ther~' s any profit involv~d in it, of about six percent, it's actually 6.06, so, not quit~ 6.1, but about six. MR. CARR-Is that six percent of th~ project or six p~rc~nt per hom~? MR. ADAMS-Both. MR. CARR-So, the mor~ homes that are built, the bigg~r your profit? MR. ADAMS-W~ll, the mor~ hom~s that ar~ built, you know, if you build two or thre~ projects, you'r~ putting in all th~ work to do that. So, this is about, essentially, a two y~ar, two and a half y~ar commitm~nt for us. MRS. GOETZ-What is so attractiv~ to you, with this typ~ of proj~ct? MR. ADAMS-The main attraction, to us, was, that this was something WfJ knew how to do, som~thing WfJ had don~ befor~. We w~r~ new to Town. We r~located h~r~ in coop~ration with the r~location program of th~ Adirondack R~gion Chamb~r of Comm~rc~ for quite other proj~cts. So, \\1& hav~ a numb~r of substantial projects that hav~ not y~t b~~n announc~d, but which ar~ in the approval stages and financing stages, h~re, in Town. It was, simply, our firm's desire to say, wouldn't it b~ nice to do an affordable housing project as a, kind of a community service. Clearly, the six percent on doing a project of this nature, is l~ss than a real estate commission just for s~lling the houses, so you don't expect to do anything, but if you're lucky you can cov~r the exp~nses for a couple of y~ars work, but, that's just our ori~ntation. The way WfJ make our business, I assure you, is not in affordable housing. MR. SHEA-I don't think that I had my question ansWfJred, though, and that was, you, as a developer, obviously, have to acquire the land. There's a cost to that, from the Ricciardelli's and providing the infra structure, correct? MR. ADAMS-Yes, sir. 5 '-.../ MR. SHEA-As a businessman, 11m sure that you have a break even point, as to the number of homes that it will take to make this project economically profitable or a loss. I'm curious as to know what number that is. There must have been some consideration for that, before going through all of this work. MR. ADAMS-Well, if one looked at the fee that we're entitled to, or the fee that is approved by New York State, that we I re entitled to, and if one looked at that and said, that's break even for us, that just covers expenses, and I don't know if it would or not. I have no idea, then it would require all 40 houses to break even. If we make some profit on that six percent, then, presumably, we could sell a few less houses and break even, but, again, it's not any easy question to answer. As far as I'm concerned, this is a 40 house project and you darn well better sell 40 houses or the developer's going to be carrying a lot of infra structure. MR. SHEA-So, anything less than 40 homes and it is a loss? MR. ADAMS-Well, anything less than 40 homes, if we can plan for in advance, is going to increase the price of every house sold because the infra structure and land costs, as a proportion, rise. MR. SHEA-But based on 40 homes and the variances that you're asking for, you have already predetermined and set the pricing on the homes, correct? MR. ADAMS-Yes, sir. MR. SHEA-And, based on that price, times the 40 homes, anything less than 40 homes, then you will show a loss to the IRS? MR. ADAMS-That's right. MRS. GOETZ-Did you draw up a plan showing what it would be without the variances? MR. ADAMS-I can show you a rough sketch. If you'd like me to, I shall do that. MR. TURNER-Before we get into that one, do you have a question related to something close to what Mike just said, or no? MR. CARR-No. MR. TURNER-No? Alright, go ahead, ask, and then we'll get the map. MR. CARR-I guess, Mr. Adams, I think, my feeling is that you're almost asking us to do something that the Town Board did not do and that's, they reduced the density, or increased the density in that zone from one acre buildings to, basically, half acre buildings and now, what you're asking us to do, by requesting these variances, is, again, increase the density of this parcel of land down to something more along the nature of, in the single family residential 10,000 or even multiple residential 5,000 zones. I guess I'm not really clear on what grounds you're basing the need for this variance when the Town Board only went down to SFR 20. You're saying, ~ll, ~ only asked for that. Well, if that's what you asked for, you knew what the zoning was, at the time, and why should we, now, really, give you more than what the property was re-zoned for? MR. ADAMS-Okay, some history would be useful, but we're really not asking for any increase, whatsoever, in density. The density is still one house per half acre, for the entire tract. What we're attempting to do is to benefit from the cluster prov~s~ons, which allow you to have the effect that, actually, is what you're apprehensive about and that is, by clustering the houses together, it appears as though you're in 5,000 foot lots or something like that, but that is, by nature, what affordable housing projects tend to appeal to, as they go to the cluster provisions, and there are cluster provisions, of course, in the Ordinances and in the Subdivision Regulations and referred to in the Master Plan and we're not attempting to increase the density anymore. What we're attempting to do is to use the cluster provisions so that we can put more houses on the utilities and roads to keep the cost per house down, that is attributable or is advertised off of the utilities and the roads. So, the history that is useful, and I wish not to be thought of as putting words in the Town Board's mouth, but there was extensive discussion about the very fact that affordable housing, by it's nature, tries to do two things at the municipal level. One is, it tries to increase the density because land cost is a very substantial cost of housing and land costs, now, are such that it's very, very difficult for median income, $30,000 families, to purchase houses that cost more than $60,000 6 and there aren't any $60,000 houses floating around. So, if we're going to build affordable housing, the number one thing that municipalities have to do, and this is nation wide, certainly, New York State, is increase the density, in most cases. Unless you can, lucky enough to find a place that's undeveloped, where density is sufficient. The second thing that municipalities are expected to do is to provide for the cluster concept, so that you have to build less roads and lay less water lines and preserve more of the green space, per house, so, if you just did it in a grid, in half acre lots, and grided up the whole thing, you'd have roads criss crossing everything, that's what we see in the block structures, for example, in every city, in every town, but the cluster provisions, particularly useful in rural areas, is such that, preferably, through good design, you can build a minimum amount of road and water line and place the houses in approximate positions to that, still keeping the recreational space and the buffer space, but where you could cut down a percent or two percent or three percent or so off of the cost of the house and those are the two things that are appeals to the municipalities. Other cost saving devices are, actually, not very much in control of municipalities. It has to do with construction or this, that or something else, but those are the two things that, Statewide, municipalities are asked to cooperate in, in order to facilitate these project. MRS. EGGLESTON-Bruce, do you feel that answered your question of, I think, if I heard him right, his answer was, it will not be more density, it will not increase the density, but there will be room for more houses. I don't understand how that does not increase the density? MR. ADAMS-Well, the density is still one house per half acre, that I s the density and it's that density no matter where you put the houses, that's the density. How you arrange the houses, of course, is what falls under the cluster provisions and that's why they're nestled around the road. These lot sizes, of course, are very familiar to you. There are plenty of subdivisions around with these identical lot sizes. Mr. Kurosaka, for example, on the Town Board, lives in a subdivision with 80 foot lots. They're not uncommon, here, so it's not unseemly that we should look to this, but the point is, that by getting the lot sizes of this size, we can put the houses along the road and the water lines and keep the cost per house, of roads and water line, down by a couple of percent. MRS. GOETZ-I just wanted to go over in my own mind, if I understood the Town Board's reasoning on the conditional re-zoning, I believe they left nine acres of community property and, if I did understand that correctly, it seems to me that they did that so that the people would be living on lots that didn't need variances and would make desirable living conditions for the potential homeowners and, to me, that seemed like a good idea and now you're in here asking for less than what I thought they did on the conditional re-zoning. MR. ADAMS-Again, I wish not to interpret what the Town Board did, but I would like to give you my understanding of the history of this, the discussion of this. Some people, here, were at the Town Board meeting, including Mr. Mannix and others. The discussion in the Town Board had to do with clustering provision and, of course, they mandated a cluster provision, which we'll speak about in a moment. They did mandate a certain percentage of the project to be in buffer zone and open space. In the discussion that had to do with the 80 foot frontages, I'd like to tell you the evolution of how that got into the resolution because it was not in the draft resolution. It was not a provision included in the draft resolution, as I recall. Mr. Dusek, or Ms. Corpus can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's correct. In the discussion in the Town Board meeting, the discussion focused on how to decrease the cost of these houses through the cluster provision and it was my explanation that, just as I have given you, that the cost per house of the infra structure is a function of the frontage on the infra structure. In other words, the cost of the water lines, the utility lines, and the roads, for that house, is, exclusively, a function of the number of feet of that house on the road. So, if you want to reduce the infra structure cost per house, one needs to reduce the number of het of frontage on that road. The unfortunate part of that was that we continued to use this term frontage, all the way through, when, in point of fact, what we were talking about was lot width and what we wanted to say was, we wanted to get down to 80 het, but in the resolution it says 80 feet frontage. When we spotted that in the final resolution, we asked the Town Attorney to look at that and see if he couldn't change it to lot width, instead of frontage, because that was the essential principal behind this discussion, but, after listening to the tapes, he felt that it would, we could not do that without another hearing before the Town Board and, of course, that was not practical at this moment. If you think about it for a moment, it would not make any sense for the Town Board to consider giving you an 80 foot frontage, but still expecting it to be required for a hundred foot lot width, that would make you have all of your lots pie shaped. The fronts would 7 -/ be 80 feet. The rear would be 120, or 30 or 40, depending on how long the lots were, to give you an average 100 foot width. The only way you could put lots like that on a site like this would be to have a circle where you would just put pie shaped lots around the circle. So, as far as I can tell, it is a technical error that the term 80 foot frontage got into the resolution. I mayor may not be right about that. MRS. GOETZ-I don't think you are. they put the minimum of 80 feet in but not to tie any other Board into I honestly don't. It was my understanding that just to show that that was the absolute minimum, going with 80 feet. MR. ADAMS-Do you imagine that the Town Board visualized a lot that was 80 feet on the road and 120 feet at the rear? MRS. GOETZ-No, I don't. MR. ADAMS-Well then, how could you use an 80 foot frontage? MRS. GOETZ-Because I wouldn I t think that they were necessarily thinking of an 80 foot frontage. MR. ADAMS-They said so. MRS. GOETZ-You're choosing to interpret it that way. MR. CARR-Yes, I think what they were saying is they're setting minimums. They aren't setting absolutes. MR. ADAMS-Okay, but why did they bother to do that? MR. CARR-Because they're setting a minimum. I think what they were trying to do is establish a guideline for the other Boards that this project may appear before, and, basically, just to let us know that they wouldn't want us to, say, go to 60 foot frontages or something along those lines. I don't think they were mandating that the lot sizes be 80 feet. MR. ADAMS-No, it is not a mandate, that's very clear. I'm only g1v1ng the history of the discussion, but the discussion was focused upon the cost of the infra structure, ~ house and that was the nature of the discussion. However it came out in the resolution, that was the nature of the discussion and the intent of the Town Board was to allow the costs to be reduced by reducing this infra structure cost. The only way we can do that, of course, is to get a variance, and that's Why we're here. Again, it was mandated under the clustering provision. The clustering provision is very explicit throughout the Ordinances, as well. The purpose of the clustering provision is to reduce costs, reduce infra structure costs. MR. CARR-That's true, but, also in the clustering provision there's not even a, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't even see a mention, in Article 14, about the leniency of zoning regulations and giving variances for clustering projects. I mean, it all talks about appearances before the Planning Board and the Planning Board should take into consideration the use of clustering provisions, but it doesn't mention that the Zoning Board should also be encouraged to use clustering. So, I guess, my feeling is "that the clustering provisions may be applicable to your project, but, also, they should meet with the minimum widths and frontages and setbacks that are inherent in that zone. MR. ADAMS-I don't believe I can argue with a single thing you said. I think, technically, what you said is correct, as I read the Ordinances, as well. On the other hand, I think it may be over looking something that we would like to appeal to that we think is very important and that is, what's typically called and what's called in Town Law in Sections 261 and 267, the Nature and Intent of the Ordinances and the Spirit of the Ordinances. The nature, intent, purpose, and spirit, throughout the Ordinances and in the Master Plan and in the Subdivision Regulations state that the purpose of the clustering provision is to reduce costs and to facilitate the goals of the plan, which includes affordable housing. It makes no sense for a cluster provision to say you can reduce lot size from 20,000 square feet to 10,000 square feet if it doesn't help you cut costs, that doesn't help you cut costs. It's the same frontage on the road, whether it's a 20,000 square foot lot with a 100 foot lot or a 10,000 square foot lot with a 100 foot front. It's still 100 feet on the road. So, the intent and the nature and the scope and the spirit of the cluster provisions, have, as their seminal idea, reduction and economies and efficiency of use of utilities and infra structure. It seems to me, then, that 8 -- that is a good motive for a Board such as this to look at that and say, well, gee, it does not really specify a reduction in setbacks, for example, or in lot width, but it does say what the cluster provision is to be used for and it is to be used for, among other things, efficiencies and reduction in infra structure cost, but that, clearly, given the Ordinances, requires a variance. So, in mandating for us to use the clustering provision, we can't cut the cost of these houses in this project by using clustering provisions unless we can a variance to assist in doing that. MR. SHEA-I think that I had read somewhere, either in the press or some of the correspondence that we've gotten from the Planners, that, if you are to receive no variances and then that necessitates that you have to build fewer homes, that it will increase the cost, the selling cost, per home. Was there a figure that that had been calculated at and, if so, what was that figure? MR. ADAMS-I don't have a very firm figure for that, but it would simply be the infra structure cost advertised over however many homes the decision of this body will allow us to build. If we can only build 37 homes, then that's 37 homes that have about $270,000 in infra structure, as opposed to 40 homes that would have $270,000 in infra structure. MR. SHEA-But did I not read, somewhere, the number of $1500 or something of that sort seems to MR. TURNER-If they went to a lot width of 100 feet, it would increase the cost by $1500. MR. ADAMS-That was an estimate. MR. SHEA-That's an estimate. My question, then, is, based on the selling prices of the homes as you've stipulated here, do you have any kind of sense or has any marketing studies, have any marketing studies been done, as to whether an additional $1500 would negatively impact the success of this project? MR. ADAMS-it will negatively impact a very important part of the project because in the program approved by the New York State Affordable Housing Corporation, while on the one hand the Board resolution in Queensbury says that these houses must be sold to 100 percent of median or 120 percent of median, by very virtue of being approved and receiving the grant, we have a new set of criteria for qualified buyers which is 95 percent of median or 80 percent of median. Now, you may ask, gee, why are there two sets of numbers, here and I can, perhaps, explain that. Part of it has to do with slop over into those 10 houses that may not have subsidies on them, that could, in fact, be afforded at 100 percent or 120 percent of median. Part of it has to do with juggling differences between what grants could apply to what houses with what people, so there's some flexibility, but there is no flexibility if we get the grant from New York State Affordable Housing Corporation. These houses must be sold to people between 80 percent of median and 95 percent of median. The extra 1500 dollars it'll cost would knock out the qualified buyers, about 13 percent of the qualified range of buyers for these houses. In other words, we could not go down to 80 percent of median. We could only go down to about 82 or 83 percent of median, that may not sound like a great deal, but it knocks out 13 percent of that range, but it does something worse for uS and that is, some of the mortgages that have been lined up, the funding for mortgages on 17 of these houses is only available to those home buyers that are qualified at 80 percent of median, home buyers that are 81 percent of median, those mortgages are not available to. So, we have two requirements to meet. One is, we have to meet the requirement with New York State to provide houses that can, in fact, have mortgages approvable for families of four or families, whatever, at 80 percent of median. In this case, whatever that page is we were looking at, Page 4, 80 percent of median MR. TURNER-$24,080. MR. ADAMS-$24,080, again, which is like two bank tellers. MR. SHEA-This project, the sales of these homes exclude anyone in the 120 percent of median and above, correct? MR. ADAMS-Yes. MR. SHEA-What if someone' s income were to be 60 percent of the median? They do not qualify either? They are not eligible, in any way, to purchase one of these homes? 9 -./' MR. ADAMS-No, sir because, even with the grant, they could not make the payments on the mortgage. The houses are priced for the Affordable Housing Corporation Program, to be buyable for families between 80 percent and 95 percent of median. There's always a fine line to draw, there. This is, clearly, not low income housing project. This is not that kind of thing. These are for, essentially, middle income working families that the State has set up this program for. MR. SHEA-If that's the case, then why does the agency allow for the addition 10 or however many homes to be provided without subsidy? I mean, you've explained it to some degree, that it spreads out some of the cost, but it seems contrary, to me, to an agency that is very strict in it's regulations and those that qualify and those that do not, particularly those below the 81 percent or figure, whatever you quoted, but, yet, would then allow for someone that could get it without a subsidy. MR. ADAMS-The New York Agency has no control over those extra 10 houses. MR. SHEA-So, those extra 10 house could be purchased by anyone, whether they fall in the 60 percent bracket or the 300 percent bracket? MR. ADAMS-That's exactly right, well, no, not 300. The Town Board says, 120 percent. MR. SHEA-Okay. MR. ADAMS-So, anything less than 120 percent, yes, if somebody ~re at 50 percent of median income, but, in fact, a mortgage banker gave us this example of an applicant they had, it was a divorced woman with a child, who had an income of, like 70 to 75 percent of median who wouldn't qualify for this, but got a $25,000 settlement in a divorce action. She can make it. With the subsidy and with that, she can make it. She can be approved by both the mortgage company and by New York State Affordable Housing, that's exactly the kind of thing this housing is good for. MR. SHEA-What about the case of someone coming in, let's say, in a similar scenario, whereby, either through divorce settlement or an inheritance or some kind of wind fall, winning the lottery, but yet their median income falls within the range of 81 to 120, what would prohibit someone in that situation from coming in and buying multiple dwellings and renting them? MR. ADAMS-The regulations set by the Senate of the State of New York prohibit that. In definitions set there, and I have a copy of those definitions, a home buyer, in a program like this, is defined as, "A family who cannot, under reasonable circlU1lstances, acquire housing in any other way, except through this assistance." So, if they did have an asset base where they could make a $40,000 down payment, they can't do it, no way and, as far as it being something that could be used speculatively, like Queen Victoria's Grant, for example, it can't be done because New York State Senate, again, has mandated, in the legislation, this be owner occupied housing. Furthermore, that is enforced. HomeFront has to certify, periodically, to the State, that those homes are, in fact, owner occupied and HomeFront also has to certify, for 15 years, whether those people are there and, if they move, the enforcement of any recapture of those grants for the State of New York. MR. SHEA-One last question. Getting back to the increased cost of an estimated $1500. Do you honestly think that, if there is a need for this sort of housing, and if you're making it, trying to make it, as a developer, as affordable as possible so that this project sells out, without any additional marketing, that, and the prices range frcxn $76,600 to $85,750, that an additional $1500 added, because of 30 homes in this project, that that would negatively impact the marketability and success of this project, based on the average house that is currently for sale in the market place and the availability on those homes? I mean, apparently, you've had to do some marketing studies and surveys to show that there is a need for this sort of thing, aside frcxn the subsidy and grant issues, but simply for the nlU1lber of homes available in this price range. MR. ADAMS-First of all, last first, a marketing survey, indeed, has been done. A fairly substantial survey of housing in this area has been done by Warren County and the housing deficit prepared by Pat Tatich's office, there, is easily available. More to this project, however, we performed, last, actually, during winter, December, January, November, I can't quite remember, where 200 survey questionnaires ~re returned, which gave us that indication. The other part of the question, however, is, would the project fail if $1500 is added on the house, absolutely not. This project, I'm convinced, will sellout, no matter what, but we will have difficulty doing it. It will knock out that bottom three percent of the range of qualified buyers that we're obligated to provide housing for. 10 MR. SHEA-The reason I ask the question is, personally, I'm in favor of this kind of project and, certainly, in the Town of Queensbury, I'd like to see more of these things come to fruition, but the variances you ask for set questionable precedents for us, as a Board, and, therefore, in a situation like this, we like to see the developer find inventive and proper ways to make these kinds of projects successful without necessary and added variances that do make our jobs and other people coming before the Town Board more difficult. We're trying to make it fair, not only to you, as a developer, but for other pe ople who come before us, later on, and if we can do this kind of project and make sure that it's successful, without these kinds of variances, then I think it's a better project for everyone involved. MR. ADAMS-First of all, I should just review the fact that this has nothing to do with me, as a developer. The costs that we're talking about, here, are costs to be paid by the buyers. It has nothing to do with fees I take out or any such thing as that. My fee is no more or less, to any substantial degree, regardless of variances. If I could sell $150,000 houses, we would all be happy and do this for a living. MR. SHEA-But let's be assured and be honest that you are, This is not, you're not doing this, gratis, for anyone. make money. You wouldn't be here, hoping to lose money. this is a profit motive. You are in business to MR. ADAMS-Yes, we make our living on other projects. That's true. I suppose, in a sense, though, our group doesn't make money on building homes for abandon children in Haiti, either, but we've been doing it for 14 years. Now, getting back to the other point about precedents and that sort of thing. I'm not really sure if what is being requested, here, has anything to do with a perception of a precedent being set. The Town Board was very, very explicit in setting the conditions on this zoning, such that, nobody's going to be able to appeal to it for any precedent. MR. SHEA-Although you're here appealing for a variance. They didn't set all of the stipulations because you're here for further variances. MR. ADAMS-That's correct. MR. SHEA-They could have, certainly, determined exactly what would come, that they would approve, without the need for a variance. MR. ADAMS-There is no doubt that that is correct, since they are the supreme legislative body in Town. On the other hand, I just want to re-address that question that supposes that, if variances are given, here, that it sets a possible dangerous precedent. I really think that that's not a strong argument, nor a strong possibility for this reason. The variances being, requested, here, are for a very specific purpose and a very specific application and project that the Town Board has approved. I don't think that constitutes a variance, except for others who might like to do the same thing and, frankly, my guess is that the Town Board might like other people to do more of this housing, just as, you suggest, under exactly the same circumstances because, in fact, Mr. Borgos and Mrs. Monahan and Mr. Dusek and others have made very clear that the Town is preparing a floating zone or a zoning overlay mechanism, which, in fact, will increase density and reduce setbacks for this specific purpose, but in the whereas clauses it says, even though they're doing that and prefer to do it that way, as a permanent measure, they reco ~ize the iImllediate need to do something like that, this, and that's why it's, perhaps, incomplete. MR. CARR-But Mr. Adams, just following up on these cOImllents. The Town Board re-zoned. They did not re-zone and then change the requirements of the Ordinances. I mean, so, yes. We are setting a precedent. If somebody comes in in an SR-1A zone or an SR-20 zone, how are we to answer them when they say, I want an 80 foot frontage. I want an 80 foot lot. I mean, we can't go back and say, the Town Board did it just for this project because th&y're going to say, no, t he Town Board re-zoned for the project. You gave them a variance. MR. ADAMS-That's correct, but the reason we're asking for the variance has very much to do with what the Town Board did. The reason we're asking for the variance is because the Town Board stipulated economic criteria for one exclusive use of this tract of land. In fact, I think it should be clear that if this project does not get built, the owner of the land can't build anything on this land. This land is re-zoned. The deed restrictions, t he covenants, and everything else that are filed with the Town Clerk make it impossible to build anything else but affordable housing on this tract, under those economic conditions. So, t he owner would have to go back through the re-zoning process and try to get SR-1A, if he ever wanted 11 -- to do anything else, again, but the economic conditions imposed by the Town Board for the single use permitted on this land, is the rflason Wfl' re asking for the variances and that would only Sflt a prflcfldflnt for variances for flxactly thfl same rflason, that is flconomic rflasons dflsignatfld by thfl Town Board, that doesn't gi Vfl a precfldent for anybody fllsfl coming in, asking for 80 foot frontages bflcausfl that's not thfl rflason the variances arfl being requestfld. MR. TURNER-Mr. Adams, some time ago, we asked if you had a sketch of the lot sizfls, I'd likfl to Sflfl that now. MR. ADAMS-This is just simply an oVflrlay on thfl samfl scalfl. What it dOfls is it puts 40 housfls with two Sflts of roads in it. As you're, perhaps, Wflll awarfl, thfl cost of infra structurfl in Queensbury is not inflxpensivfI, so, flssentially, this runs about $134 a linear foot to gflt the road, the water linfls, and thfl this and the that and onfl thing or another in there, so, in essence, instead of a single road system, such as this, where we have a 40 houses, or can, essentially, get 40 houses, under the right circumstances, around the roads, we have a double road system, such as this. Now, this is lots with a hundred foot fronts and 100 foot depths, but you can quickly see the green spot is that 50 foot buffer zone mandated by the Town Board resolution. So, that this is the buffer zone on north and south boundaries, but you can quickly see that the deeded lots occupy most all of the open space that we had hoped to preserve in the other kind of design, so that, essentially, lots back up on each other like this because there's really no room to get betwflen them and we're required, thfln, to utilize to sets of roads and that's wherfl thfl additional infra structure cost comes in. Aesthetically, environmentally, and every other way, it's a very unplflasing dflsign becausfl it, flssentially, wipes out all of the trees and whatnot that the other design kept. MR. SHEA-What if you Wflre to go to one road and 30 homfls? MR. ADAMS-Then the infra structure cost can be advertised over only 30 houses which would add, what, 25 percent of the infra structurfl cost to the price of the houses. They would be far more than $1500, far more. MR. CARR-How much mon? MR. ADAMS-Well, infra structun costs is $270,000. A fourth of that is, $65,000. So, $65,000 addfld on to 30 homes, that's a couple of thousand dollars a house. MR. CARR-21? MR. ADAMS-Yfls, 21, 22, something like that. MR. CARR-So, it's not $1500, but maybe, like, between $21 and $2200 per home? MR. ADAMS-$21 or $2200 per home, but now only 30 families havfI homfls, instead of 40, Yfl S . MRS. GOETZ-I have a qUflstion about the sflptic. At the first public hflaring it was suggested that you Wflre going to share septic systflms and then I undflrstand that's bflen changfld? MR. ADAMS-Yfls. MRS. GOETZ-And then, what I'd likfl to know is, where arfl they going to go on plan, thfl plan that was attached to your application and where would they go on the overlay? MR. ADAMS-Okay, prflsumably, on the overlay, there should be rOom on the deeded lot for it. These lots comply with code and the Ordinances. Here it was our prflference to follow the practice in many other afford able housing projects and othflr projects like Queen Victoria's Grant and that is, to put th& septics outside of the lot line, into a Homeowners Association and then maintain thflm under the Home owners Association, so that there's a regular maintenance, an enforced maintflnance on them, so, in that case, the septic systems would go in the back. With regard to a sharfld sflptic systflm, therfl sflflm to be flconomifls for doing that and, cflrtainly, thfl Department of Health has absolutely no problem with that, neither do the engineering firms have any problem with that, of putting two houses on a larger septic system. The amount of leach line is doubled, so there's no big issue about that. The tank is larger, so there's no big question about that. Where we began to run into problems was, two kinds of problems, psychological problems. Pe ople get suspicious about it, which is a big obstacle, but more importantly is the problem with mortgage companies. We discovered that some of t he mortgage financing that we would like 12 '-- -- to appeal to for this project may very well not approve mortgages where therf¡ is a sharf¡d septic system, for single family detaches houses. They will approve it for attached houses. Queen Victoria's grant is case in point. I know Mrs. Potf¡nza recently sold a townhouse that had a shared septic systf¡m that got that kind of a mortgage, but singh family detachf¡d housing, Dr. Bitnf¡r's bank's been turned down sevf¡ral timf¡s on that. So, we havf¡ to roll with those punchf¡s on it. Right now, the thought is to put singlf¡ systems in. MR. SHEA-So, in either plan, the one attached to your application or tht, oVf¡rlay, f¡ach homeowner will havf¡ his own septic systf¡m? MR. ADAMS-That would bf¡ the thought. In this particular caSf¡, the homf¡ownf¡rs would have to havf¡ it all on their own land which almost mand ates you I re going to have to clear thf¡ wh 016'1 lot to put t hf¡ housf¡ and thf¡ sept ic s ys tem on thf¡re. So, this is, essentially, going to be clear cut and that's a very hf¡avily forf¡stf¡d pif¡cf¡ of land, beautiful big pine trees and whatnot. So, f¡ssentially, to put a house and a septic system in therf¡, this is, practically, going to be clear cut. MRS. GOETZ-Why wouldn't you have to clear cut it on the application one? MR. TURNER-It's green arf¡a. MRS. GOETZ-Is it gref¡n area now, though, trees? MR. ADAMS-Yes. MRS. GOETZ-Okay, just because thf¡re's nothing on it, you don't have to cut? MR. ADAMS-Yes, well, we have to dig it out to put the linf¡s in, the tank and the lines in, but, on the ot ~r hand, we can mOve the systems around so that we only have to clear lumps, say, every ot~r house, you know, make it much simpler to do. MR. SHEA-I don't understand that. will have their own septic system, their own property, on each case? On the original application, since everyone on that plan, will their septic systems be on MR. ADAMS-No, sir. On this plan, it will be in the Homeowners Association, so you might have to clear out this space along in here, but that still leaves, like, 100 and some odd feet of recreational, forested area, which, of course, t he Master Plan places very, very high priority on. In this case, by requiring the septic system to be put on each one, as well as the house, there's no way to get in there with equipment and get that stuff put in without, largely, clear cutting that. You can try to keep as much can, but you have almost no opportunity to jiggle your house around if you can preserve alar ge tree by doing so. The house has got to there and the septic's got to go there and you cut everything that gets in the way. There's not much flexibility. MR. SHEA-You don I t foresee any problems with regards to, whf¡n a septic system is on the propf¡rty that is, in effect, ownf¡d by the Homf¡ownf¡rs Association, corrf¡ct, with enforcf¡ment? I mean, you talked about Queen Victoria's Grant and, that being t he case, t hey have problf¡ms enforcing storagf¡ facilities on it, lf¡t alonf¡ septic systf¡ms. MR. ADAMS-In thf¡ case of the septic system, the Homeowners Association has a specific contractf¡d mechanism for cleaning those things out and maintaining them and that's what thf¡ annual dues are for. MR. SHEA-Our experience tells us that the Homeowners Associations have vf¡ry littlf¡ enforcf¡ment powers and that it would be my belif¡f that t he responsibility of thf¡ homeowner, if it were on his own property, would be a much bettf¡r inducement to having any problems that may arise being taken care of, rat her than some, either associated or disassociated body trying to enforce those kinds of things. It's just my opinion. MR. ADAMS-Well, and I'm sure that therf¡ are caSf¡S like that, in fact, it may be the case if Queen Victoria's Grant is having that problem, but I know that there are plenty of other examplf¡s where it works beautifully. Thf¡ lady who does dozens and dozf¡ns of these Homf¡owners Associations, this is very standard and par for thf¡ course, where these septic systems are put in t he Homeowners Associations. Thf¡rf¡ is a mechanism, under contract, where those are maintained and they just do it, that's just all thf¡re is to it, period. 13 MR. TURNER-Anyone else? Okay. Thank you. MRS. GOETZ-I think you're overexaggerating the part about total clear cutting to put in the septic systems on the own, individual lot. I'm just thinking of when I had one put in. I had a tree moved and kept at the nursery and brought back, after the septic went in, so I really question as much clear cutting as you' re mentioning. MR. ADAMS-Is Paul Cushing here or Tom Nace or anybody t h:it knows the dimensions of the fields for septic systems? MR. TURNER-That's the question I was just going to ask. MR. ADAMS-Help us, here, Mr. Tucker. In installing a septic, a single septic for a single house, what are the footages for the lines that have to go out for it? PLINEY TUCKER MR. TUCKER-A three bedroom is 187 linear feet, in a leachfield and it, the leachfield is standard. The drywell varies with different subdivisions. MR. ADAMS-Yes, how does that leachfield distribute itself from the central fault? MR. TUCKER-The septic tank is a minimum of 10 feet from the structure, a m1.n1.mum of 10 feet between the septic tank and the distribution box. The lines coming out of the D box are 6 feet on center and they're divided up in equal lengths. A four bedroom, the max is 250 feet for a leachfield. MR. ADAMS-Per bedroom. MR. TUCKER-Per three bedroom. MR. ADAMS-Okay, maybe a better guesstimation would be, what kind of clearing do you think would have to be done to install a single septic system, say, for a three or four bedroom house? MR. TUCKER-Well, when I do it, I clear the area where the septic is going. Some of them put them in, work through the trees and do it that way. MR. ADAMS-Yes, it does increase the cost, substantially, if you do th:it, right? MR. TUCKER-Yes, but I mean, it's done that way. MR. CARR-Mr. Adams, I think Mr. Tucker brought up a good point and Sue and I were just mentioning this. With the 187 leachfield for a three bedroom home, if that's Wiat I understood, and you have to expand it, if more bedrooms are added, it has to be a larger field. I mean, these houses are being designed .!E. be expanded. Now, are they going have the septic system at the largest that it could possibly expanded to or is it the minimum now, and then, hopefully, when they add on, they'll- MR. ADAMS-We're not going to ask buyers to buy a house and then, two years later, dig up their tank and put in éI. new one. No, Tom Nace, the engineer on this mo, of course, all of you are familiar with. Paul Cushing, t he architect on it, and the Planning Board, I mean, th:it's where that decision's made. I would not dream of wanting to compromise it. I mean, that's just, that's what's called continued affordability. It wouldn't be continued afford ability if they have to drop another $2,000 in a new septic system, later on. MR. TURNER-Okay. Thank you. I will now open the public hearing. PUBLIC HEAtiNG OPENED GENE LASHWAY, IN SUPPORT MR. LASHWAY-My name's Gene Lashway and I work for the Queensbury Highway Department. I work in the west end and I've lived in the west end for, probably 21 or 22 years and I' ve been trying to save. I brought five kids up there. I've been trying to save and buy a house up there, but I just can't do it. If something like this came up, I know I'll be eligible to do it, with me and my wife working. I mean my house just built a house in Bedford Close and it's a $100,000 house and there's no comparison to the lots. I mean, the back of his house, from here to that flag 14 -- -.../ is like Sherman Avenue there's nothing there compared to up where they want to build these So, I'd like to buy a house up there. I work for the Town and I spend a lot of time in the Town and the Fire Company of West Glens Falls and that's where I'd like to spend the rest of my time and bring my kids up. Thank you. MRS. PENO MRS. PENO-I would like to know what's going to happen to all the children that live up in there. There's no place for them to play. MR. ADAMS-I don't blame Mrs. Peno for wanting to know where the kids are going to play because she's had some trouble with kids on her place out there, which is exactly next door to this tract, and, also, she has a marvelous garden that she doesn't want them tromping in. Our hope was that, if we can get the approvals to engage in this kind of a design, \Ye have a marvelous amount of recreational space, here. The Town Board mandated 40 percent space. This kind of a design gives us closer to 55 percent space, which, the way the, there was discussion, in the Town Board, as to how to specify the difference bet\Yeen buffer zone and open space and the draft of the reso1ut ion came out with t he term green space. In the Town Board meeting \Ye discovered there was no definition for green space, so that's why we ended up with terms like a 50 foot buffer zone, here, so, Mrs. Peno, there's 50 foot of trees, here, between this and your garden, okay, and that flag that the surveyor put out there is not a boundary line, that's a topographical survey station, okay. Then, the Town Board resolution indicates that the rest of this is to be open space for passive recreational use, as defined in the Ordinances. So, Mrs. Peno, the thought, here, is, the opportunities for children, hopefully, will be better, here, than it would be in most places because they do have access to, each one has access to a very large opportunity for playing, as opposed to simply having all their lots like this, where, technically, they're only entitled to play on their own property, so that there's not very much rOom for that, or at least not as much room for that. TIM BRULER, OPPOSED MR. BRULER-I just wanted to ask Mr. Adams if, you spoke, awhile ago, about garages being put on the houses. Where would the garages be on the houses if there's only a maximum of 20 feet between the houses. On the back of the houses? MR. ADAMS-No, these are actually drawn with the largest house and the largest garage and what this sketch is, as far as the scale is concerned, is the house and the garage on 10 feet on each side. Now, t he Ordinances currently require that you have a minimum of 10 feet, but it wants you to have a total of 30 feet for the sides, which means you could have 10 feet on one side, but you'd have to have 20 feet on the other side, but that's, really, probably more an aesthetic argument than anyplace else, with the garages. So, these are drawn with the garages on them. MR. BRULER-Tim Bruler, Cand1ebury Drive. One other thing. If you say these houses are made for internal expansion, what happens to the storage area that you were talking about, when the expand the inside of the house. You have a bigger family, you're making more bedrooms and less storage, what do they do about that? MR. ADAMS-You still have a cellar. MR. BRULER-You still have a cellar, but if you make the cellar into a bedroom, you don I t have a cellar anymore. I'm saying, if you have a ground floor and a cellar, like I have, if I put two bedrooms down in my cellar, I'm taking half of my cellar away and, therefore, I'm taking half of my storage area away. MR. ADAMS-I think the common remedy, in this area, is simply the use of garages for that kind of storage, at least around most places. MR. BRULER-We1l, I have a cellar and a two car garage and my garage is full and my cellar is full. MR. ADAMS-Well, this is affordable housing. MR. BRULER-Well, my house is affordable. I mean, I have no problem with affordable housing. I understand it and it's a great idea, but I just think that you're putting 10 pounds of garbage into a 5 pound bag and I'm not calling the houses garbage. 15 -- MR. ADAMS-There I s two kinds of storage that's required, interior storage for close and that sort of thing, Christmas tree ornaments and whatnot, I suppose and exterior storage for lawn mowers, snow blowers and that kind of thing. Typically, the exterior storage is accommod ated in garages. I mf¡an, if you just look around QUf¡ensbury, that's almost always the caSf¡. Whf¡n more storage thf¡n that is required then, typically, you see the little sheds put in the back and that's another matter for the Planning Board or whatever else. CARL SCHRODER MR. SCHRODER-Mr. Chairman, my name is Carl Schroder. I live at 54 Old Forge Road. I've been a property owner in the Town of Queensbury since 1956. I have owned three pieces of property in the Town of Queensbury, one you might be familiar with is when Hyman Monroe left his plumbing place up on Corinth Road. I bought that out and then I bui 1 t on the corner of Old Forge Road and Lupine Lane. So, I have vast experience, here, in building. I was Chief of the United States Army D&sign Branch. I built buildings world wide, the last one being, her&, in Fort Drum. I've built buildings in Honduras, Germany, Italy, France, and England, just to name a few. Therefore, I'd like to speak to you about why I'm against this particular project. Number On&, for years, the Town of Queensbury has maintained that you have to have a hundred foot front, then they came up, all of a sudden, with, 10,000 feet. I don't know wh&n that came in, that came in after I left and went to work for the Federal Government. Two years ago, I came back to Qu&ensbury, after retiring from the Federal Government. I asked to put a sh&d on my property. It wasn I t a cheap shed because I had Fitz Construction build it. It was only a 10 by 20, but I hate to tell you the problems I had trying to get this thing done becausf¡ everybody was worried about how far back from th& line you ar& and everything else. It just so happens my house is located on a 100 by 197 foot lot. So, therefore, I had the room. Also, I raised four children. We have a housing project, h&re, t hat has been reduced from 10,000. They're asking, now, for 6,400 square f&et. In my mind, I'm not clear as to what this is. Is this supposed to be for senior citizens, that's one question I have. Another question I have is, it's supposed to b& affordable housing. I don't know what affordable housing is. I hav& built many housing proj&cts in many cities in th& United States which were afford able, fift&en years ago. Tod ay, fifteen years later, ~ are tearing these houses down, tearing these properties down. You should look at th&m. Harlem is a very good example. Go through it one of these days. If you don't givf¡ the prop&r clearance for everyt hing that's requirf¡d, you're not going to get anyplace. Here you have a house, located on 6,400 square f&et. We're talking about 2 bedrooms, 3 bedrooms, 4 bedrooms, okay. Who's filling up these bedrooms? If th&y are elderly people, like myself, I have children. Now, if I have a four bedroom house, that means my wife and I lives in on& bedroom and I have thr&e children living in the other three bedrooms. Since I am a senior citizen, all my children ar& old enough to drive, th&refore, I have my car, ~ll, I have a van, actually. My wife has her car and now my other thrf¡e children have each got a car. Can you tell m& where, on this 6,400 squar& f&et plat" I can park all thes& cars? There just is not enough room. Two, if federal money is being used for this, and I can stand corrected on this, Jack, you are not allowed to build a building with federal funds unl&ss there's 50 foot fire clearance bet~en the buildings, if federal funds ar& used. Now, this is what we have be&n practicing for th& last 30 y&ars, as far as federal funds go, it's in the engineer instruction, Corp of Engin&ers. So, that's another thing, if fed&ral funds are being used for this, people ought to consider that particular question. If you have this property, laid out as this is, there is no room for &xpansion at 6,400 feet, if we maintain the proper clearances that we I re supposed to have. Therefore, I strongly appeal to the Board, pl&ase do not approve this zoning with the 6,400 squar& f&et. Let us stick with the original 100 foot front and 100 back if we have to, but let's maintain a 10,000 square foot piece of property. Why should we, now, be hurt or properties cheapened because somebody els& is coming in h&re with a smaller cost. The cost of $1500 was m&ntioned, here, for th& &xtra footag&. Well, now, in my mind, t hat calculates a little less than $8,000 for 100 fe&t. I wish I could find a lot in th& Town of Que&nsbury for 100 feet lot, front footage, for $8,000. Now, if anybody knows of a pi&ce of property that's 100 foot front, on any road in th& Town of Qu&ensbury, for $8,000, pleas& get a hold of me tCJllorrow, so I can go down and buy the darn thing. It's just not f&asible, sir. JIM ELDER MR. ELDER-Jim Elder. I live across the road from this prop&rty. I don't know if this is for or against, but it's som&thing, maybe, you should know. I don't know if you p&ople toured that pi&ce of prop&rty. Th& prior own&r of that prop&rty, Hans Feubuster, before he died, h& had an outfit COm& in and cut all the wood that's 16 -- on that property, that was worthwhi Ie for pulp wood. years ago. There's forested property that bounds that on it. There's a lot of brush. For what it's worth, Now, that wasn't very many land, but there's very little I thought you ought to know. PLINEY TUCKER MR. TUCKER-Pliney Tucker, Ward 4. I guess I've been looking for information on this thing for, w&ll, ever since it came out. I'm quite interested in knowing what one of these houses, 1,000 square feet, with the $25,000 grant from the government, what the mortgage on one of those units would be. MR. ADAMS-I thought I had it in the write up. I do not have it in the write up. This is the application to New York State Affordable Housing Corporation and there are about 20 pages of mortgage computations done by Statewide Mortgage Company. The mortgages, in general, are going to range somewhere betw&en $55 and $60,000 on the se house s . MR. TUCKER-On the monthly payments, do you have any idea? MR. ADAMS-We can go into what the mortgage computations are, but, essentially, what the mortgage company did was to develop the computations to illustrate that these houses have mortgages that can be purchased by families who have 80 percent to 95 percent of median income. So, whatever that number turns out to be, Mr. Tucker, that's what FHA or Sonymae, will approve. MR. TUCKER-Now, are any of the local banks in Town involved in this? MR. ADAMS-The only way the banks have been involved, so far, is through consultation. The buyers of these houses are, essentially, in the same position as the buyer of houses in any other subdivision. If you walk into Queen Victoria's Grant, you either talk to the person or there's a desk there with mortgage applications from Statewide, from Glens Falls National, from First National. The same thing, here. If they want to fill out a SonyMae mortgage, they're welcome to do it. It turns out that, in this area, Dr. Bitner's bank, First National, is the only SonyMae lender. On the other hand, if they're going to apply for a federal home loan bank mortgage, the only bank, in this Town, that handles those is Albany Savings Bank. If they're going to want an FHA, most of the banks can do that, but none of the banks have any particular position, with regard to this. It's the buyers who make a choice of where they apply for the mortgage. MR. TUCKER-Right, now, another question for you and you should have the answer to this, are they required, by law, under this system, here, to get involved in this? MR. ADAMS-Who? MR. TUCKER-The banks. MR. ADAMS-Well, the banks are involved by virtue of the fact that they're the ones the mortgages are written by. MR. TUCKER-No, I mean, are they required by the State of New York to, w&ll, you've got 40 houses here and, we'll say Albany Savings Bank, required to write mortgages on 15 or 20? There's no quota system or anything? MR. ADAMS-No. Anyone particular bank could write all 40 mortgages or one might write one and another bank might write three or whatever the case is. the buyers choice. There's no quota. bank It's MR. TUCKER-Alright. Thank you. PAT GAUTHIER MR. GAUTHIER-Pat Gauthier, Ward 3. My only comment is, and it has nothing to do, really, with the project, but the intent of the zoning, a couple of years ago, in the Town of Queensbury was to reduce the density and to stop, slow down growth and I think that this is in direct opposition to what the intent of the Town of Queensbury originally was and the Town Board modified that and nOw he wants to increase the density even more from what the Town Board allo~d and I think that, as far as the project is concerned, early in his statements he stated that, to make this project feasible, he needed 40 units, not 30. I don't think the issue 17 is the $15 or $2500 additional cost because that shouldn't make it prohibitive to the number of people in this area, according to what the bank has been dOing, 250 people that were interested. Thank you. MR. ADAMS-I don't think there's a single :point that's been made that doesn't have a very strong basis for making it, but I think I would point out just some counter balancing views to keep in mind. For example, t œ idea that the purpose of the re-zoning, some years ago, WiS to reduce density. There's absolutely no doubt that that was the purpose of doing that, but what has been found out is that that, together with other kinds of policies, has a very material effect on the cost of housing and the whole purpose of affordable housing is to get the housing back down where middle income families can afford it. In anticipation of that, t œ Master Plan makes very specific that what was being objected to, here, is precisely what is going to have to happen. If you look on Page 2 - of this material I gave you, Paragraph Number 6 quotes from the Master Plan where it says that, in order to implement it's policies, is sets forth a strategy to, "allow for smaller lots or even 0 lot lines, lot line development, if the homes will be affordable to moderate income groups with minimal down payments". In other words, it's true that the Ordinance has reduced density, that was the purpose of it. It was the idea of preserving the rural community and so on and so forth, that's to be applauded, but what that does is militate against the stability of the labor market and the ability of middle income families who work here, also, to live here. In fact, you've heard from a couple of those, tonight, whom I haven't met yet, but in order to build that kind of housing, t œre, clearly, has to be, there have to be islands inside the Town, Wlere costs can be reduced through these municipal actions, both by increasing density and granting variances to allow t he infra structure cost to be reduced, per house and that's what the comprehensive plan talked about, here. As an example of that, as a matter of fact, it may be something of a surprise for some of the people sitting in the audience, but here's a project being built where the lot sizes are nothing more nor less than the footprint of the building. Now, t his is a 48 acre subdivision in which there are 48 houses. It's one house per acre, but the houses are being built with 0 lot lines and only t œ footprint of the house is being sold on Upper Sherman Avenue. These are the kinds of things I think that the Comprehensive Land Use Plan was anticipating that we are going to see more and more of, in order to get the cost of the housing down, but that it's not a city wide, general approach to zoning, but these are islands in which this kind of precedent and procedure can be approached. MR. TURNER-Mr. Adams, the price of those houses, right there, are what? MR. ADAMS-It's, perhaps, somewhat unknown. They were said, by tœ developer, to be affordable houses. His first estimate was about $90,000. As I understand, his subsequent estimates may be more like $125, $130, I'm not sure what means. MR. TURNER-That's Mr. Diehl's property, correct? MR. ADAMS-Yes, sir, but that's zero lot lines and only the footprint is being sold. Now, 6400 square feet lot is substantially greater than a 1400 square feet lot. MR. GORALSKI-I'd just like to clarify something. First of all, t he project that was just shown, here, has not received final approval from the Planning Board, as of yet. It's only received Preliminary approval. Secondly, that plan was brought in under the townhouse concept and not under the cluster provision of the Ordinance. MR. ADAMS-That's true, but is it not still correct that the zoning is one acre zoning? MR. TURNER-That's right. MR. GORALSKI-Correct. MR. ADAMS-It's one acre zoning. MR. CARR-But does that project necessary to have variances? MR. GORALSKI-No, that project has not received any variances. MR. CARR-And it's not necessary to? MR. GORALSKI-No. MRS. GOETZ-And your land would have been one acre, before it was re-zoned, so we're not talking about the same thing. 18 '- -- MRS. EGGLESTON-I just wanted to ask him if Queensbury residents will have any preference to these homes, first and foremost, or will it be open to all of New York State? MR. ADAMS-Yes, Mrs. Monahan brought that up in the Town Board meeting, one time. I think it's obligatory to state an emphatic no to that. It is not possible, unless the Town is sponsoring this project, itself, and has some involvement in it, itself, and, perhaps, has some financial interest in it itself, so that it can, in fact, have a reason to rank priorities as to who can buy this thing, then there are no other mandates that can be imposed on it. MRS. EGGLESTON-So, ~ere will your advertising go, Albany, New York? MR. ADAMS-No, it will go into the Post Star. MRS. EGGLESTON-Only the Post Star? MR. ADAMS-Yes, and there's another reason for that. The attorneys in the rOom can slap my ears if I'm wrong about this, but a couple of cases point to the fact that municipalities are obliged to consider, in their municipal policies and in their Zoning Ordinances, ~at are called the Regional Housing Needs, ~ere they are, and not only the housing needs exclusively within their own boundaries. The Barrenson case in the Supreme Court, in 1976, made that very, very clear and it was reemphasized only in July of this year. So, ~atever the W0ight might be given to that decision, the fact is that the mand ate tends to be much stronger in the direction of not placing discriminative priorities on who can apply for the housing because, after all, you've got people that work in Queensbury t hat would like to apply and, if only Queensbury people could apply, they couldn't apply because they're obliged to live across the line in Glens Falls, so these are the if's and and's you get into. MR. SCHRODER-Is there federal money involved in this? MR. ADAMS-No. The funds involved in it are allocated in the budget set by the government, under legislation specifically drafted by the Senate and it's State money. JOHN MANNIX MR. MANNIX-Thank you, Mr. Turner. I'm here on behalf of the Adams and Rich Group and I would like to make a few comments. I find myself, now, at meetings like this, ~ere I'm old enough to remember World War II and I remember what happened in the Town of Queensbury, right after World War II, in the area just off Aviation Road, ~ere Bob Levit and Hip Hall, ~o were people I knew from Lake George, developed what all of us know as the Cottage Hill Development. That was affordable housing, at that time, as it was known at that time and I believe it served this community exceptionally wll. I think that it's been maintained very wll and lot's of people, probably some of the people in this room, have gone through that type of affordable housing. We're here, now, to talk about asking you people to help us figure out a way to make these houses more affordable for people who are going to become, and maybe are, at this point, part of the staff that helps our whole community work, the fireman, the policeman, the school teacher. I've got a daughter who's a school teacher up in Warrensburg. There's no way she can afford to buy a new home, husband going to college and she's working. She's making a decent living, but she cannot afford it. I'm going to ask Charles, in a minute, to speak to the question of affordability, because there's been a lot of misunderstanding about what that term means. It is not just a function of the price of the house. There are houses that are priced for, roughly, the same amount of money that the Adams Rich Group believe that they can bring houses in here, but that's not the definition of afford ability. Charles is much better able to speak to that than I am. What we're doing is -we're asking you to give us these variances to reduce the cost of these houses. Most people who come before a Zoning Board of Appeals come in and ask for something so that they can increase their gain, that's not the point, here. Their fees are fixed by law. They are a function of the sale price. If we don't get the variances and if the sale prices have to go up, then their fees will, essentially, be the same. If we can reduce the cost of this project, the Adams and Rich Group are, actually, going to make less money. So, they're here asking for variances which will reduce the cost of the house and, fund anentally, reduce what they're fees will be. This is an economic question that we're coming here before. Mr. Adams has already told you that you can take this particular piece of property and you can configure 40 lots on it that will conform to your Ordinance. Does it make those places affordable? Probably, not. It can be done, but we're asking 19 '- -- to preserve the integrity of this property, that you approve these variances. We're not increasing the density at all. People misunderstand that. They're are going to be the same number of houses, one way or the other. It's a question of how you put them on there. Most lots in the City of Glens Falls, for example, are 50 foot wide and people have lived there, on those lots, for a long, long time. What you have, here, is roughly 12 or 13 acres of open space that everybody is going to be able to use. They're not just confined to the 6400 square feet. I would ask Charles, if it's okay with Mr. Turner and the Board, if he would define affordability because I really don't think that this concept has come through, at least in the media, as I have read it. MR. ADAMS-Well, only a brief remark to just place in context, perhaps, previous remarks. Affordability, as a practical matter, is defined as how much the monthly payment is on the mortgage of a house. In Japan, for example, to keep housing as affordable as they can, they stretch out the mortgage to 99 years, push it over two or three generations. They also have a lot of zero lot lines, but what we're really talking about, here, is afford ability, in terms of the monthly mortgage. If you could build a half million dollar house and still only have a $650 a month in a mortgage payment, those are just arbitrary numbers, you'd have an afford able house. At least it would be affordable for somebody to live there. There might be consequences, later on down the pike, for tax reasons or otherwise. So, afford ability has to do with the amount of the monthly mortgage. What we're really asking for, here, is to keep the numbers on these mortgages, essentially, as projected and represented to and accepted by and approved by New York State, so that that 13 percent of the range of qualified buyers can, in fact, have housing that they can buy because if they can't then we can't use this land, the way it's presently approved by New York State. So, ~ have a difficulty in the use of this land, as a technical and statutory matter, with respect to the grant application. So, ~'re asking that the variances be done so that that segment of the buying public, in the 80 to 83 percent range of median income can, in fact, have housing they can buy, \\hich promotes the integrity of the grant application and which also allows us to have a source of mortgage money which is not otherwise available. When it is only available for those people, it's 80 percent of median, that's Federal Home Loan bank. MR. MANNIX-Charles, speak to the down payments. MR. ADAMS-Down payments. The amount of cash required of the buyers on these houses is going to be somewhere in the neighborhood of $4500. A lot of that is closing costs. The downpayments are not large. The down payments are going to run, probably, $3 to $600 on these houses. we've tried to strip out as much cash as we can to make these buyable by median income people. Typically, a family that make $25, $30,000 a year does not have $10,000, $15,000 in the bank. They just don't. So, again, affordability has to do with keeping down payment. The way that the State grant comes in, the State grant does not come to us. we don't see tha t. When the house is built. The mort ga ge is read y to be si gned . The S ta te writes the check for up to $25,000. It may be somewhat less if the family has certain circumstances that attenuate it and that check is written to HomeFront and then HomeFront disperses those funds to pay for the building of the house and so on and so forth. So, the State writes the check, as though it were the downpayment. It, literally, is what makes the mortgage drop. In other words, on a $75,000, if you only put $1,000 down, you've got a $74,000 mortgage. The State steps in and writes the check to reduce the amount of mortgage down into the 50's, Which is how that works. MR. MANNIX-How does that get paid off? MR. ADAMS-The grant that is given to the buyer is handled in several ways and it's all by statue and by formula. If the homeowners live there for 15 years, they're home free, that grant does not have to be repaid. It's a different form of assistance. It's the same magnitude or kind assistance as a subsidize government loan, like the old GI Loan or the VA Loan's or whatever, where the government subsidized the interest on the mortgage, that's one way of assisting. These are not subsidized interest rates, but these are grants put into the price of the house to drop the mortgage amount down. Now, in the case of GI Loans, those were subsidies that the government never got back any of. In this case, if the family lives there for 15 years, they don't have to pay back that up to $25,000. If, however, they move out before 15 years, then that has to be paid back in a pro rata amount. For example, if they lived there five years, two thirds of it would have to be paid back and then two thirds of any profit that they would make on the house would have to be paid back to New York State, as well and that goes back into the New York State Affordable Housing Corporation pool, to build a new affordable housing. BRIAN MAR 20 --- --.-/ MR. MAR-My nam& is Brian Mar. I also b&long to the West Glens Falls Volunteer Fire Department and s for years s I've b&en trying to get into the Fire Departm&nt ands back years agos you couldn't get in to the Fire Company if you lived in Glens Falls and I just live in the s I live in Glens Falls s but I've been trying to get in the Town of Queensburyand I also work for the Town of Queensbury and I've beens for a long times trying to live in West Glens Falls and that's all I have to say and I like belonging to the West Glens Falls Volunteer Fire Department. MR. SCHRODER-Am I to tmderstand that the maintenance of this propertys heres will be by some Homeowners Association? MR. ADAMS-Maintenance of what? MR. SCHRODER-Of the properties. MR. TURNER-Common areas outside of the plot. MR. ADAMS-The area outside of the lot lines is owned by the Homeowners Association and s of course s every resident has their pro rata equity share in that Homeowners Association. MR. SCHRODER-Sos every time the taxes go up on this propertys heres the Association also has to pay for the taxes? Am I correct? MR. ADAMS-If the taxes go up s the homeowner's going to pay for the taxes s v.hether it's in the Homeowners Association or whether it's in their fees. MR. SCHRODER-Okay. Is there any difference between this project and a timeshare projects v.hich has the same principles? MR. ADAMS-Timeshare projects essentiallys has multiple owners to a home that share around the years a week heres a week theres a month heres a month there. This is nothing like that. MR. SCHRODER-But they still share the up keep of it. MR. ADAMS-But that has nothing to do with this. MR. SCHRODER-It has nothing to do with this? In other wordss the fella that has a piece of propertys heres he's paying house taxes on theres that's mandatorys State s COtmtys Ci tys Queensburys alright. Nows he's also paying taxes on this propertys h&res v.hich is hidden by a maintenance fund. MR. ADAMS-Wells the density on this is one house per half acre. You bet that the homeowner's going to pay taxes on a half acres v.hether it's owned in his lot or whether it's owned in a Homeowners Association. MR. SCHRODER-Well s v.hat I'm saying is s the maintenance costs go up every year s just like it does in timeshare programs. MR. ADAMS-it has nothing to do with timeshare programs. Queensbury does it. It goes up however MR. SCHRODER-Timesharing programss every property they try to sell has a maintenance cost involved that the hom&owner has to pays every year. Is this the same principle? MR. ADAMS-This is exactly the same principle. MR. SCHRODER-Thank you. MR. ADAMS-The amount that the homeowners pay is sets each years to cover the taxes and s in the event that the septic systems are serviced by the homeowners s then the periodic maintenance on those septic systems are set s as well. If it were in the contract that the homeowners landscaped this little boulevard entrys heres there woulds no doubts be a buck or two a year to buy bulbs and flo~rs for that. Mr. Mannixs good attorney that he iss indicates that the attorney generals of courses has to approve that Homeowners Association arrang&ment. MR. SHEA-The mortgage rates on these proposed mortgages s I'm asswning that sunder any sc&narios that these are not going to be fixed rates? 21 MR. ADAMS-ThQSQ arQ 30 YQar fixQd mortgagQs. MR. SHEA-ThQY arQ? MR. ADAMS-YQs, sir. MR. SHEA-Okay. MR. ADAMS-That's thQ only way W0 can lock in affordability. WQ can't rQally afford to gQt nQW familiQs into homQs that arQ going to havQ variablQ rates. They can bQ pricQd right out of those houses. MR. SHEA-Is the grant ftmding guarantQQd, at this point? MR. ADAMS-No, it is not guaranteQd. ThQY arQ waiting on us to submit to thQm thQ changQ in zonQ, \\hich thQ Town Board has givQn, thQ variances and thQ actions rQquired of thQ Planning Board. ThQ application has, in fact, recQived staff approval for ftmding and it has bQen on thQ ftmding agQnda for two consQcutivQ months, now, but WQ cannot gQt thQir allocation of ftmds, their decision on ftmding, until thQSQ actions arQ takQn and thesQ documQnts arQ in placQ. MRS. GOETZ-Could I just ask a qUQstion about that? If you WQre not to recQivQ thQ variancQs, it dOQsn't mQan that you wouldn't gQt thQ ftmding, right? MR. ADAMS-WQll, I'd have to just sPQculatQ about that. MRS. GOETZ-I'd have to SQQ it in writing. I would, bQcausQ I don't want spQculation. I want thQ answer. MR. ADAMS-I don't know of anybody who can say anything in writing about what a State agEmciQs going to do. ThQ StatQ agQnciQs havQ thQir own ways of making up thQir minds. I can only report to you what thQ facts havQ bQQn to this datQ. WQ know that if W0 cannot bring in housing, for QxamplQ, that has hOUSQS that can bQ purchasQd by PQople at 80, 81, 82 PQrcQnt of mQdian income, WQ've got big timQ problems and my guess is, NumbQr OnQ, it will kick out any mortgagQ money that we havQ available from FQdQral HomQ Loan Bank and it, cQrtainly, will not providQ housing that can bQ purchased to that targQt population sPQcifiQd in thQ application. MR. SHEA-I think Mr. SchrOdQr had a vQry good point, with regard to thQ number of potential cars in this clustQr dQvelopmQnt. HaVQ you donQ some calculation as to, if in fact, and, cQrtainly, thQy'rQ Qntitled to it and could, possibly, have three or four cars per lot. I'm not Nally sure if thQrQ's going to be enough room. CQrtainly, if thQre' s not Qnough rOom for them in thQ drivQways, you're not mandating garagQs and you'rQ trying to appeal to thQ mQdian incomQ, someone who's going to try and keQP the paymQnts down as much as possiblQ, so, my suspicion is, in thQ first go round, PQoplQ will probably opt not to havQ garagQs and, thQreforQ, a lot of thesQ vehicles will bQ ending up on the streQt, in which case, as far as public facilities and snowplowing, I mQan, I can see a host of problems. MR. ADAMS-Okay, I did not address that when Mr. Schroder brought up thQ point, but now that you have, I will do so. ThQ criticism can be leviQd, on any subdivision, \\hatsOQvQr, in Town, proposQd at any timQ. I don't know of any subdivision that provides for off streQt parking for four cars. Ordinarily, it's just not the case, but lQt' s look at it a differQnt way. The OrdinancQs require parking spaces for two cars to be off streQt. This projQct has in it' s budget, and it has bQen bid by the contractors, to providQ 400 square feet of asphalt parking on the lot. So, there's space for two cars, there, that's all Queensbury requires. It would be somewhat gratuitous of us, on affordable housing, to say, ~ll, ~'re going to asphalt for three cars or four cars, but two cars are provided off site and it is an asphalt, in essence, it's an asphalt driveway, leading up to where the garage is, if it's there on Day One or will be if they want to put it in. JOHN HERZOG MR. HERZOG-Good evening, my name is John Herzog. I live on 12 Queensbury Drive, in Queensbury and I just want to make a point to the fact that, when people say affordable housing, Queensbury does have affordable housing in the same price range available right now, with people trying to sell bet\\Jeen $85 and $90,000. væ have the homes. What makes this project affordable, and I'm for it, is the fact that you get a federal grant, okay, and it makes the people, though, that can't afford inter housing, now, and they still need to make $24,000 to be accepted. The other point that I have, if there's two tellers working and they're coming up with the 22 ~ $24,000 to qualify for a home like that, say, for instance, what husband and wife work and they make $30,000 and the husband makes $24,000, he's going to say, honey, stay home, because I'm going to get into this, okay, this is one point. The other point is, if you have it there, expect for the Town of Queensbury to grow and make it available through the whole Town of Queensbury and not just in that area. MR. LASHWAY-Mr. Shea, in regard to your question about the parking. I've plowed for the Town for seven years and I've never had a bit of trouble, there's one road on this Town, they've got garages, parking garages in the rear of their apartments and we have an average of eight to ten cars towed, a night, off there. You go knock on the doors and the people won I t answer the door and that's Manor Drive and I've plowed every District in this Town and I've never had a big problem until we get up around, across fran Cottage Hill, not Cottage Hill, across from Cottage Hill, beside the Queensbury School and I know people, I have three cars in my family. My two daughters and I drive and we never leave a car out on the street. You make room for it when it snows and, in an emergency, you make rOom for it. I've never had a bit of trouble, with the exception of Manor Drive and, even in the west end, you know what the avenues are over there, there's no cars on the street over there. Thank you. MR. TURNER-But, it's also a fact that, after November 1st, you're to park on the highway, anyway. Let me ask you another question, up. You said you would be able to afford a house and live in that Are you satisfied with an 80 by 80 foot lot? not supposed while you're development. MR. LASHWAY-Yes, very satisfied. MR. TURNER-Do you think that's big enough to suit all your amenities? MR. LASHWAY-I know it's big enough. I know it is. I own a camp in Newcomb that's 85 by 105 and I've got plenty of room. I've got two brother-in-law's that have got their campers parked up there, year round and we've got plenty of room in that yard. MR. TURNER-Yes, there's a lot of room in the Adirondacks. MR. LASHWAY-This is strict, up there, though. They don't let you, you don't step a foot across the line, but like I said before, if it goes up into $2,000, like he was saying, I've tried two or three times, that $2,000 makes a difference. MR. TURNER-Does that put you out of the MR. LASHWAY-That puts me out of the bracket. MR. TURNER-Between the two of you? MR. LASHWAY-Right, because I've gone through Statewide Funding, twice and live got a VA Loan and that $2 or $3,000 knocks it down, because I make $19,000 something at the Highway Department and that's with a lot of over time. MRS. EGGLESTON-I have a question for Mr. Adams. Do you know what the fixed rate of interest would be? MR. ADAMS-Well, it wiggles around a little bit, as you know. It's gone up, slightly, since these computations were done. There seems to be an impression, in Washington, that, the prediction is that the current deliberations in Washington are going to see the rate move slightly down, probably, again, to what ~ computed, ~ hope. Partly, it depends, as ~ll, on where you get the money. SonyMae has, somewhat, a different rate than FHA, for example. Federal Home Loan Bank has somewhat different rate than others. MRS. EGGLESTON-What is the ans~r. MR. ADAMS-I can't dodge. I'm going to have to make up some numbers, here. MRS. EGGLESTON-And, my second question, you think about that one a minute. MR. ADAMS-Well, let me get rid of this one. It'll weigh on my mind. Let's talk somewhere in the nine and a half, ten percent bracket. Certainly, mortgages, these days, are in the double digits, as a general rule, ten, ten and a half percent. I think the kinds of programming, mortgage programming, that are attracted to these kinds of projects, ~'re going to be able to hit that by a half a point or a point. Also, it may help us a little bit, 11m sure that I'm not authorized to make any 23 representation for any ,of the banks around here, but there is at least one bank who is contemplating the possibility, as a public service, of knocking a point off the mortgages that they write, now that has not been approved and it's not been announced and I won I t name the bank, but that's the kind of community support that is behind this. In the front page of the little handout I gave you, I've tried to outline the kinds of ways we've tried to make these affordable. The point that I failed to put on there, that is probably more important than anything else on there, is the fact that this project is a beneficiary of, literally, thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars of contributed services. For example, all of the topographical surveys, the test pits, the perc tests on that tract of land were done as a contribution, by C.T. Male Engineering. There've been enormous amounts of legal services, architectural, engineering services contributed to this, \\hich don I t show up in these prices. They don I t show up on the front page of that and one that I s notable, I think, as well, is that one of the attorneys \\ho writes title insurance in Town, has written a letter committing and confirming to the nonprofit sponsor, that he will write the title insurance and contribute all of the fees back into the pot so that the mortgage amount is reduced by that amount of money. It may not be a very well kept secret that about 80 percent of the fee on title insurance is a fee to the attorney or to the firm that writes it and about 20 percent is the fee that goes to the insurer and it's that 80 percent of the title insurance fee that would be refunded by such a contribution so that, again, the mortgage payment is reduced by that amount. These are important things. These are the things that show the kind of contributions and support in the community. we've tried to get everyone to do their part, as l've laid it out in the front page, there. Again, the two things that we appeal to the municipality to do and it's not just here, it's allover the state and it's allover the nation, is cooperation in increasing the density to an amount that will be approved by the Town and the psychology of the Town and the legislative body of the Town and to be able to provide sufficient variances to keep the cost down. Every little piece of it counts. MRS. EGGLESTON-Somewhere in your little book, there, would you have an approximation of a $55,000 mortgage payment and, how much would Association dues be on top of that, break that down into two. MR. ADAMS-My guess is that the Association dues are going to be something like, less than $100 a year. MRS. EGGLESTON-That would include taxes, maintenance, the whole bit? MR. ADAMS-That would include the entire obligation of the Homeowners Association. You see, it I S a little difficult to state that figure because we don I t know if the septic's in or the septic is out, or this that or something else. MRS. EGGLESTON-Okay. MR. ADAMS-But even with the septic's in, it would be something less than $100 a year. MRS. EGGLESTON-Okay, and the mortgage payment on a $55,000, 1'm asking roughly. I know you can't do exact. MR. ADAMS-This is Miss Judy Callejaro who's the Assistant Director of the New York State Rural Housing Coalition in Albany, that organization has submitted applications and administered Affordable Housing Corporation gra~ts lower than any other organization in the State of New York. I think, even more than in New York City, in terms of number of grants. Whether that be the case or not, they have applied for and administered grants for about 55 of these projects. They are, certainly, the people in the State who knows how it works and it turns out, as well, that her organization and she, personally, as an executive of that organization, ÿßs retained as a paid consultant by the nonprofit sponsor, to oversee and monitor the preparation of this application, so that it complied with the regulations in the State and represented What, normally, is expected to happen in an affordable housing project. Do you think you can find it, Judy? MISS CALLEJARO-I'm Judy Callejaro. 1'm with the New York State Rural Housing Coalition. Since I put these numbers together, it's easy to find them. A $54,300 home with a downpayment of $457, the monthly payment would be, for principal and interest, would be $511. The taxes would be $120 dollars a month, insurance $20 a month. MRS. EGGLESTON-$120 a month for taxes? MISS CALLEJARO-Right. 24 MRS. EGGLESTON-Which we know are going to go up every year, okay. How much for insurance? MISS CALLEJARO-We figured $20 for insurance. MRS. EGGLESTON-Is this monthly figures, you're quoting? MISS CALLEJARO-That's a monthly figure. MRS. EGGLESTON-$20, yes. MISS CALLEJARO-$90 for utilities. MRS. EGGLESTON-What kind of heat is that? MR. ADAMS-Electric. MRS. EGGLESTON-$90 a month? MISS CALLEJARO-This is a 1,008 square foot house. MRS. EGGLESTON-Okay, ~ll let's keep going, here. MISS cALLEJARO-And we calculated $15 a month for the Association dues. The total was $756 a month. MRS. EGGLESTON-Okay, thank you and those costs you have quoted in your paper, here, does not included garages, am I correct? MR. ADAMS-No, ma'am. MRS. EGGLESTON-So, how much do you figure the garages would cost added to the cost of these, $8,000, $10? MR. ADAMS-You have a marvelous gift for asking questions that are difficult to give only one answer to, -whether or not it's a single garage, a double garage, -whether or not it's lined or unlined and so forth. In a sense, you could get a thtUIlb nail sketch by looking at the packages offered by the Sawhorse or Curtis Lumber or Griffen or something like that and, typically, a materials package on a double garage is going to run you something less than $2,000. Those are advertised in the Post Star all the time, in the supplements. If you want to look, then, at the labor, putting it in, you can guesstimate, but, even if you double it MRS. EGGLESTON-But do you make it a part of your project to build the garages? At what cost? MR. ADAMS-Well, ~ would only do it if it can be worked in in the qualification scheme of the buyer. We are not, at this moment, planning to build garages, but if a buyer is in a certain qualification bracket where a garage can be included in the mortgage amount, then, certainly, it could be an add on at quite good savings, since it could be done at the same time. MRS. EGGLESTON - I gue Ss , though, my comment would be, on that, most wi 11 end up with no garages because you come up with $5,000 to get you started and then MR. ADAMS-Yes, I think that's correct, and that's part of the design of this. How do you get people in the biggest bang, for the buck, on Day One. How do you get them into the biggest house with the most expansion possibility, that they can then put their own effort into and, as their salary increases and their family grows can, with sweat equity, increase that, a garage is an obvious w:lY to do it. Otherwise, if we lay on five, eight thousand dollars in garage, it would just knock out that bottom seven percent of the qualified market. MRS. EGGLESTON-Okay, thank you. MR. SHEA-You have received bids for the infra structure and for a lot of the, for all of the contracting? MR. ADAMS-All of it. MR. SHEA-Have the contractors been chosen, as yet? MR. ADAMS-No, sir. 25 MRS. EGGLESTON-Will they be local? MR. ADAMS-Part of it will be local, but the general contractor we do not expect to be local. There were six contractors that requested bid documents to bid this. Four of the contractors ~re local. Two ~re out of town. Of the out of town ones, only one submitted a bid. Of the in town ones, only two submitted a bid. So, four local contractors declined a bid on this project. I did not ask what they're reasons ~re. They had all the bid documents. They had all of our assistance, but only two of six bid on this project. The closest low bidder that was a local contractor was more than $5,000 per house higher than the one out of town contractor and the out of town contractor was a substantially larger and more financial stable firm. So, Wtile we have not awarded any contracts on it, I can tell you that the predisposition is to award the contract to the Rutland group, in Rutland, Vermont, but that, because we have provided in here demonstration opportuni ties for the Valenti roof, ~. re expecting that Dan Valenti's group will be building some of these houses and we don't know how many, yet. That will depend, partly, on qualified buyers and how Dan and Liz put that together, but they've certainly been invited into it and the Rutland group, if in fact, they do become the contractor are agreeable to making sure that all of the Valenti houses that can be qualified and sold, here, will, in fact, be built under that contract. MRS. EGGLESTON-Will each deed be done individually from the Ricciardelli's or have you bought the plot out right? MR. ADAMS-We have an option agreement on it and it's specifically for this project. we can't buy this land for any other purpose. MR. TURNER-You're not going swimming until you get all the approvals? MR. ADAMS-No, and, incidentally, that's another way that we've found to make this project a feasible and affordable thing. Mr. Ricciardelli has agreed to finance the land as ~ use it and, actually, only get paid for the land and release the land as each unit is built and sold. So, that we really don't have to go to the banks, then, to get construction lending to fund the full purchase price of the land, that cuts down a lot of interest cost on these houses. we've tried to cut the corners every place we can except cutting the cOrners on 2 by 4' sand 2 by 6'8 and the quality of the house. MRS. EGGLESTON-Well, that peaks my interest, then, and I can appreciate helping with affordable housing, but, it is a nice tract of land, \Yhy not a development with homes that cost more. I mean, it's close to Bedford Close, \Yhere you could make more money. What motivates you to do this affordable housing? MR. ADAMS-I don't know. What motivates uS to build homes for abandon children in Haiti? We just happen to like to do it. MRS. EGGLESTON-Well, ~ all work for money. MR. ADAMS-We do other things for money, I assure you. we have one $28 million dollar project in the financing stage in this area. we have a couple of other projects working with other local people, here, similar to that. This is, unfortunately for us, turned into what has come to be looked on as kind of a crusade. This is not intended to be a crusade. This was intended to do a very simple, easy project, \\here the initial community support, evidenced in the kick off at the Queensbury Hotel last December, for HomeFront, was so enthusiastic. Everybody said, ~'ve got to do it. Let's do it. We knew how to do it. we felt that we knew how to get the grant money in here to help. Mary Adams and I thought, ~ll, Wty don't we do it. We know how to do it. We've done it before. Let's just do it and be done with it, but this is not the project that brought us to Glens Falls. Other projects brought us to Glens Falls. MRS. EGGLESTON-Thank you. MR. TURNER-Anyone else? Okay, public hearing's closed. Correspondence. PUBLIC BEARING o.OSED ICORRESPONDIIRŒ MRS. GOETZ-The Warren County Planning Board pulled this application from the agenda until action is taken by the local Board on re-zoning and they expect this to be returned to them. 26 Letter from Bob Eddy: While I am in complete sympathy with providing affordable housing to all economic groups, I wish to go on record that the density should remain as set up in our proposals, unless and until sewers are installed. Certainly, 40 single family homes on 22 acres cannot be justified without proper sewage treatment even though the Town water may be available. (END OF FIRST DISK) 27 -- Letter to fellow ZOning Board members and all in attendance, from Jeffrey Kelley, Zoning Board member, absent this evening: I'm sorry that I am unable to attend this special meeting to review Variance No. 56-1990, Adams and Rich Inc. Usually, I don't formulate preconceived notions, as I feel testimony from the applicant and the general public often shed new light on the matter at hand. Unfortunately, I don I t have that information at this time, so I III give my opinion based on the facts made available to me. First of all, let me explain why I think we are confronted with this application to start with. In reviewing the current Zoning Map, I have difficulty locating any available land that is zoned UR-10, SR-15, or SFR-10. Those zones do appear on the map. Ho~ver, they, generally, are already built to near capacity. What appears to be the problem is that these zones \Vere not provided for in areas of the Town that were not already developed. Most open areas left in the Town are all zoned one acre in size. By doing this type of planning, there were nO areas to accommodate the smaller lot sizes which would accept affordable housing. All of the zones, UR-10, SR-15, and SFR-10, would allow lot sizes would allow lot sizes similar to what Adams and Rich are proposing, such as a 75 foot lot width, 10 foot side yard setback, and 10 foot rear setback. I believe that the solution to affordable housing is to re-zone areas of the Town that, currently, have open spaces and allow developers to plan and build homes that will fit all income levels. This particular property, which consists of 22.4 acres, could probably accept the 40 houses that are being proposed, if the lot sizes ~re 10,000 or 15,000 square feet each. For an Area Variance to occur, four criteria need to be met. If the area ~re re-zoned to one of the three classifications mentioned previously, the applicant would not be deprived of reasonable use of the land. Secondly, if re-zoned, the strict application of dimensional requirements would not result in a specific practical difficulty. Front, side, and rear setbacks, as ~ll as lot width, all seems to be reasonable and, certainly, could be built upon. I believe, by re-zoning, ~ will be allowing the lo~r income family a chance to live in our great Town. I don't believe our forefathers thought of this as a place where only the affluent were to live. Most of our Town was rural farm land, to begin with. If re-zoned in a proper, orderly fashion, I can't see how it would be detrimental to the Ordinance, but, rather, it would make more land available to all walks of life. If you \Vere to examine the neighborhood surrounding this property, I don't think other property in the District would be adversely effected. Lastly, if the design ~re different, I believe the elimination of the cuI de sacs would be an improvement to public facilities, rather than an adverse effect. I know, fòr a fact, in other subdivisions, the elimination of cuI de sacs made for a better design. I'm not against affordable housing. In fact, all along, I had felt the Town did not provide for the little guy. To attract business to our area, \Ve need to offer a labor force that fills all skill levels. These people also have to be able to afford houses in all the various price ranges. The best plan I can see is to do the job right the first time. To have to redo or constantly modify t ~ plan is much more time consuming and costly to all involved. My recommendation would be to deny this variance and provide for this type of development through proper zoning. STAFF INPUT Notes from Lee. A. York, Senior Planner (attached) MR. TURNER-Would the Board care to discuss any of the merits of the application before we rule on it? MR. CARR-Illl tell you, I'm not convinced that this would not be setting a precedent that we would not be able to uphold, should another person come and ask for this same exact relief or, even, relief of a lesser nature, but along the same lines. I don't feel that the financial information given by t ~ applicant, for one thing, doesn't really apply to the four criteria, because it doesn't apply to the land, it applies to the proposed use of the land, but, regardless of that, I don't feel that that is significant enough to be granted a variance. I feel that there are alternatives to use the land, under the current restrictions of the zoning for that area, that still would allow the project to move forward. MR. SHEA-I think it's an admirable project. I think it's an honorable project. I hope to see it completed as soon as possible because it is something that I think is needed. My main concern comes from the point, and I think I'm consistent in my opinion with respect to new projects, that, as best they can, that new projects, from the inception, be created to lessen the impact and the request for variances, because I do think that, if it's a new project, there can be inventive and honest attempts to be made tò design these things without variances, to maintain the integrity. There are, certainly, good reasons for variances and that's what are jobs, here, are and we act on them every single month. It's unfortunate, though, that this project needs to have these kinds of variances and that it has gotten this far 28 --- without stronger action by either the Town Board or the Planning Board because I think the project can fly and I'm certain that it will fly without the requests that are before us this evening because I agree with Bruce, it will make things more difficult for others to come, after this, if we were to grant a variance this evening. MRS. EGGLESTON-I can't say more than that. My co-Board members that have spoken, have, I think, said it all. I can't think of anything they haven't covered. I have to agree with them, in light of what we've had in the past, and I think we would be opening a can of worms and I can't emphasize enough or agree enough with Mike that this is a chance to start a project on the right foot, get it right to begin with, and it can be done without the variances and I think it should be done in compliance with what they can do. MR. TURNER-Well, you have to allude to the fact that Mr. Mannix made, in reference to Cottage Hill. Cotta~ Hill was a good concept at the time, but that's 45 years ago. This is 1990. Cotta~ Hill residents have been here for variance after variance after variance, just because the lots are too small, variances for porches, variances for additions, variances for sheds, you can name them and I live on a 100 by 100 foot lot and I'll tell you, 100 by 100 foot lot, it's small, 80 by 80 is a heck of a lot smaller. You don't have rOom for, hardly, a shed. You don't have much room to put a whole lot of snow. You don't have rOom for much parking, two cars, it's just inconceivable and, for me, my daughter can't afford that, right there, as it stands and there's a lot of people that can't afford it. Mr. Lashway, there's a lot of people in the room that can't afford it, but I'm going to tell you, it's not a project that I could support. I think you have to live within the criteria of the zone that's established by the Town Board and meet the setbacks, that's my comment. MRS. GOETZ-I agree with everything that's been said and the re-zoning was a hu~ step forward for this project and I think that was a good thing to do, even though I was on the committee that set it at one acre, because I do believe in the affordable housing concept and I think the project is going to happen anyway and, by denying this, æ' re going to make a better quality of living for you because those homes are going to be able to be expanded so that you'd be living on a postage stamp and I think, if we turn it down, you'll end up with a much better project. MR. LASHWAY-You're not gPing to be able to ~t anybody to afford that. MR. GOETZ-I think you will, just from all the things that have been said. MR. TURNER-Gene, previously to this being zoned one acre, it was SR-20,000, just what it is now. You couldn't afford it now. MR. LASHWAY-No, but if I qualify for the grant, I could afford it. MR. TURNER-There's a lot of people that will never be able to period, just the way things are today, just the economic the wa~s and what they have to meet to live in this world. to afford to buy a house. It's just impossible. afford to buy a house, condition of Country, They'll never be able MRS. GOETZ-With the square footage proposed, if I understand this correctly, it would be less than what is allowed for a mobile home in the Town of Queensbury, that's one way of thinking about it. MR. TURNER-The Mobile Home Ordinance states, 6500 square feet, that's for your septic system, your mobile home site, parking. MR. LASHWAY-You better ~t somebody over on Rhode Island Avenue, then. They just put two brand new mobile homes in. MR. TURNER-That's a mobile home park, Gene. MR. LASHWAY-No, it's not. MR. TURNER-No, no. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the Ordinance. For a mobile home park, it's 6500 square feet. MRS. GOETZ-And, as I see it, I might be wrong, but I think the developer is going to come out ahead, by ~tting those 10 additional homes and I would rather see the people that are going to be purchasing 100 feet on the road, end up with the better deal. 29 MR. TURNER-Just envision 10 feet from the property line to your house. MR. LASHWAY-But, if you're going to own it in 15 years, Teddy, or 20 years, it's worth it. Where's your closest neighbor on Meadowbrook Road? MR. TURNER-Where's my closest neighbor? Right next door. MR. LASHWAY-Right. How far, 20 feet? MR. TURNER-Yes, probably. MR. LASHWAY-Does he bother you? You've lived there all your life. Does he bother you? MR. TURNER-No, not yet. MR. LASHWAY-Okay, when it was a dirt road, nobody bothered you. They still don't bother you. If it was going to be mine in 20 years, it would be worth putting up with the 10 feet or 20 feet, instead of paying EarleTown Corporation $550 a month and have to live in the City because I can't afford to buy something in the west end. MR. TURNER-Okay, motion's in order. MarION TO DENY AREA VARIANCE NO. 56-1990 ADAKS AND RICH, INC., Introduced by Michael Shea who moved for its adoption, seconded by Bruce Carr: The Board is in total support of the goals of the project and hope to see the project materialize. We don't believe the applicant has demonstrated a practical difficulty with regard to the dimensional requirements. Strict application of the Ordinance will not deprive the applicant of the reasonable use of the land. Although some justification can be made, wi. th respect to the financial hardship, it is somewhat self imposed. We, the Board, are not obligated to consider the hardship of the developer or the potential home buyer. In order to receive the requested variances, the applicant must meet all the criteria. Since this variance request is a sociably honorable one, it is unfortunate, but correct, that the variance be denied. Duly adopted this 12th day of September, 1990, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Shea, Mrs. Eggleston, Mrs. Goetz, Mr. Carr, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE ABSENT: Mr. Kelley, Mr. Sicard MR. ADAMS-If I may make a comment. I simply want to express my appreciation for your cooperation in holding this special meeting. I know it was a great imposition. I know that you have voted in ways that you feel very strongly about. I accept that and I want to express my gratitude for your presence, here. MR. TURNER-Thank you. On motion meeting was adjourned. RESPECfFULLY SUBMITTED, Theodore Turner, Chairman 30 .~ . - - TOWN OF QUEENSBURY PlSlnnil1g Department -NOTE TO FILE- September 11, 1990 Mrs. Lee A. York, Senior Planner Mr. John S. Goralski, Planner Mr. Stuart G. Baker, Assistant Planner Date: By: Lp.p. A. York X Area Variance - Use Variance - Sign Variance === Interpretation SubdiYÏllioD: Sketch, _ PrelimiDary, Site Plan Rniew - - Petition for a Change of Zone - Freshwater WetlaDds Permit FiDal Other: Application Number: Area Variance No. 56-1990 Applicant's Name: Adams and Rich, Inc. MeetiDg Date: September lZ, 1990 ............................................................................................ The property to be considered in this variance procedure has recently been rezoned from SR-IA to SR-2.0. The Town Board made certain stipulations on the use of the property during the rezoning process (attached). The portions of the stipulations which the Board must keep in mind regarding the variance requests are as follows: The land is to be developed in a cluster design as per Article 14. Article 14, Section 14.02.2., states that the number of lots created shall not exceed that of the number permitted by zoning and all other applicable zoning requirements of the district shall be adhered to (lot width, lot size, and setbacks). The Town Board stipulated that 40 percent of the property be maintained as open space and buffer zones, with a 50 foot buffer zone on the north and south sides of the parcel, and with a minimum of an 80 foot lot frontage. Open space in the Ordinance (definition 187) is defined as land not covered by buildings, pavement, open storage, mining operations, or any other use that visually obscures the natural or improved landscape. The house on the typical plot plan is ±l,560 square feet, and tbe driveway is ± 594 square feet. Forty houses and driveways would be 86,160 square feet or about two acres. The roadway would average about two acres. It would appear, therefore, that tbere will be ±l8 acres or 82. percent of the parcel left in open space. The minImum lot size for clustering in the SR-2.0 zone is 10,000 square feet. The applicant is proposing lots of 6,400 square feet. A variance from the standard of 3,600 square feet. '- 1 I ~ --- - j " '- - The SR-20 zone requires a minimum lot width of 100 feet. The applicant is requesting to vary the Ordinance to create lot widths of 80 feet. The Town Board resolution states that the development must have a minimum of 80 feet of road frontage. It would appear that the developer created 80 by 80 square lots in order to meet the road frontage requirement. The minimum side yard setback in the SR-20 zone are, a total of 30 feet with a minimum of 10 feet per side. The applicant's request is for a total of 20 feet with a minimum of 10 feet per side. I reviewed this application with regard to the criteria in Article 10. 1) Are there special conditions applying to this property or building, and not applying to other properties or buildings in the neighborhood? The shape of the property and the physical features of the land are not unique in the area. There do not appear to be special conditions relating to the property which would mandate a lessening of the 10,000 square foot lot size, or the road frontage and setback set forth in the Zoning Ordinance. The applicant has answered this question by refening to the use which is intended for the land. According to the Zoning Board of Appeals Local Government Technical Series (page 10), "The area variance has been defined as one which has no relation to a change of use, it is primarily a grant to erect, alter or use a structure for a permitted use in a manner other than that prescribed by the restrictions of the Zoning Ordinance." An area variance applies to the land itself. 2) Would strict application of the provisions of the Ordinance deprive the applicant of the reasonable use of the land or buildings. The zoning on the parcel is SR-20. The applicant could develop the parcel in conformance with the Ordinance and at the same density with no variances. The applicant has referred to the added cost if the land is developed according to the zoning requirements. This argument would appear to be based on a self imposed hardship rather than a hardship created by the Ordinance. 3) Would the strict application of the dimensional requirements result in a specified practical difficulty. The property can be developed as zoned without any variances. The applicant has stated that the practical difficulty resulting from the strict application of the dimensional requirements is that garages would be prohibited and the cost of the houses would be increased and more trees would have to be cut. According to the Zoning Board of Appeals Local Government Technical Series (page 12), "Financial hardship then is one factor that may be considered, but by itself, is not determinative."... It is to be noted that when the terms significant economic injury and financial hardship are used, the financial hardship: "should focus upon the value of the parcel as presently zoned, rather than upon the value that the parcel would have if the variance were granted."... "The applicant's burden of proving significant economic injury is not met by a showing of what the property would be worth if a requested area variance were granted." (page 10 Local Government 2 . f --.. -~ f - Technical Series: Zoning Board of Appeals.) 4) Is the request the minimal relief necessary to alleviate the specified practical difficulty. The applicant has indicated that they have not requested a rezoning to a higher density since the SR-2.0 zoning is the minimal relief. It would appear from the plan presented that part of the need for variances is the size of the houses and their location on the lots. The plan shows a house of approximately 1,560 square feet without a garage. The assumption was that this was one story. If it is two stories, it could be up to twice as large. It would appear that a smaller house would require fewer variances. An alternative layout and design might also alleviate the need for three variances. The property can be developed as zoned without any variances. In order to receive a variance, the application must meet all four tests. The Town Board recently rezoned this property from one acre to one half acre to provide for affordable housing. The application for the variances indicates that three variances are also necessary to provide affordable housing. The applicant requested the rezoning to SR-2.0 with knowledge of the zoning requirements for that zone. The applicant has to prove that the zoning restrictions deprive him of all reasonable use of his property. The Local Government Technical Series does cite a judicial interpretation which relates to a social purpose and a setback variance. I have attached this for your review. 3 ". .:......... -. .. -- The most recent judicial interpretation of the tests for the granting of area variances appears to expand the doc· trine considerably. In Human Development Services of Port Chester, Inc. v. Zoning Board of Appeals of Village of Port Chester(493 N. Y.S.2d 481; aU'd 67 N. Y.2d 702), which involved an ap,lication for a variance from set- back requirements for property to be operated as a residential facility for mentaHy disabled persons, the court states that - to justify the grant of an area variance - the- applicant must bear the burden of establishing that strict compliance with the zoning regulations wiJI cause "practical difficulties," which is described as a less demanding standard than the "unnecessary hardship" standard required to justify a use variance. However, as one reads the decision, it becomes ques- tionable whether the area variance standards as they exist are less demanding, or whether they have become equal- Iy, or more, difficult. . The court recognizes that the meaning of the term, "practical difficulty," has never been positively iden- tified, but that generally an applicant for an area variance must show that he/she cannot utilize his/her property without "coming into conflict with certain of the restric- tions of the zoning ordinance." The court further states what it describes as the basic question to be addressed, "whether strict application of the ordinance in a given case will serve a valid public purpose which outweighs the injury to the property owner" (citing Matter of DeSena v. Board of Zoning Appeals of Incorporated Village of Hempstead, 45 N. Y .2d 105). The court then lists four factors which - while "no one is necessarily controlling" - are considered signifi- cant: I. Significant economic injury (citing Matter of Na- tional Merrittv. Weist41 N. Y.2d 438). 2. The magnitude of the variance soulht, since the greater the deviation, the more likely that it wiJI have a severe impact on the community (citinl National Merritt). 3. Whether the difficulty alleged was self-created (citinl DeSena v. Board of Zoning Appeals of Incorporated ViJJ~ of Hempstead, 45 N. Y .2d 105). 4. Whether the aHeled difficulty may be avoided by means other than a variance (citinl Wachsberger v. Michalis, 19 Misc.2d 909, aff'd 18 App. Div.2d 921). ~I - '"