1992-06-17
~EENSBURY ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
. FIRST REGULAR tEETING
JUNE 17lH. 1992
INDEX
Use Variance No. 53-1992 leemi1t's/Getty Petro1eum Corp. I.
Area Variance No. 54-1992 Marc Shearer 10.
Area Variance No. 55-1992 Dunham's Bay Fish & Game C1ub. Inc. 14.
Area Variance No. 57-1992 Joann E. Mattison 25.
Area Variance No. 58-1992 Edward & Mary Cardina1e 27.
Area Variance No. 59-1992 James Girard 32.
THESE ARE NOT OFFICIAllY ADOPTED MINUTES AND ARE SUBJECT TO BOARD AND STAFF REVISION. REVISIONS WIll
APPEAR ON THE FOllOWING MONTHS MINUTES (IF ANY) AND WIll STATE SUCH APPROVAL OF SAID MINUTES.
(JIEENSBURY ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
FIRST REGULAR tEETlNG
JUNE 17lH. 1992
7:30 P.M.
tEMBERS PRESENT
THEODORE TURNER. CHAIRMAN
JOYCE EGGLESTON. SECRETARY
CHARLES SICARD
BRUCE CARR
MARIE PALING
FRED CARVIN
ZONING ADMINISTRATOR-PAT CRAYFORD
STENOGRAPHER-MARIA GAGLIARDI
NEW BUSINESS:
USE VARIANCE NO. 53-1992 TYPE: UNLISTED NC-I0 LEEMILT'S/GEm PETROLEUM CORP. OWNER: SAtE AS
ABOVE INTERSECTION OF DIXON AND AVIATION ROAD PROPOSE TO USE EXISTING STATION BAYS FOR fl)TOR VEHICLE
REPAIR AT lHE GEm STATION. (BEAUTIFICATION COJ.IITTEE) (WARREN COUNTY PlANNING) TAX MAP NO. 91-1-1
LOT SIZE: 9.315.5 SQ. FT. SECTION 179-25
RON FORTUNE. REPRESENTING APPLICANT. PRESENT (7:30 p.m.)
STAFF INPUT
Notes from Patricia Crayford. Zoning Administrator. Use Variance No. 53-1992. leemi1t's/Getty Petro1eum
Corp.. June 17. 19.92. Meeting Date: June 17. 1992 "This is a use variance app1ication from Getty
Petr01eum Corporation to use the existing station at the intersection of Dixon and Aviation Road for
vehic1e repair. The Neighborhood Commercia1 zoning is to enab1e residences of Queensbury to obtain
stap1es and nece,ssities and other goods from sma11 sca1e neighborhood oriented shopping areas. A
gaso1ine station is a 1isted permitted use under Type II but the definition of a gaso1ine station does
not inc1ude the repair or maintenance of vehic1es. Therefore. this use variance is being sought.
Thi.s appJication requires SEQRA approva1."
MRS. EGGLESTON-And the Warren County P1anning Board approved. with the condition. "That no parking
be a110wed on the northwest side of the fue1ing area at the point of the triang1e. A1so that modern
codes are met and upgraded as needed."
MR. FORTUNE-My name is Ron Fortune. from lee. Mass. I'm with Decker and Company who's representing
Getty Petro1eum at this 1ocation.
MR. CARR-Mr. Fortune. parking up there is going to be pretty tight. I see on the parking p1an there's
six spaces behind the bUi1ding. one on the southern side of the bUi1ding. and two on the northern side.
Where are you going to p1ace the cars that are being repaired? Are some of those spots designated
for them?
MR. FORTUNE-We11. what we're asking for is not something that's a primary use. It's something that
the occasion repair that might be needed. a vehic1e that wou1d be there no 10nger than. at the worst
case scenario. a 48 hour period. It's something where it's not the Jiffy lube type of thing. where
it wou1d be an oi1 change or. on a continuous basis. It wou1d be the occasiona1 one. It wou1d not
get into engine rep1acement or transmission rep1acement or any auto body work or anything. It's the
opportunity for.ª- dea1er to come in with the opportunity to repair a tire or rep1ace a tire. or just
a genera1 maintenance of a vehic1e of one of his customers. I see it as something very 10w profi1e.
I had offered to the County a different p1an. I showed a different parking arrangement that actua11y
has the cars towards the property 1 ine where I can get three more cars. I fee 1 that wanti ng the two
bays and these additiona1 cars at the back. I can assign maybe three cars at the back. It wou1d be
with the automothe. and then the two bays. and I fee1 that that wou1d be sufficient. It wou1d be
on an appointment basis that these cars wou1d be serviced. It's not something that there wou1d be
any storage of any vehic1es. There's just no room. I cannot take and a110w any parking. the p1ace
cannot take that much parking with the businesses that are there. Again. it wou1d be something
restrictive. Getty cannot get a dea1er for that 1ocation for just retai1 sa1es of gasoJine. They
have to have the additiona1 monies of the repair portion of this faci1ity. of which Getty who had
purchased this from Sousa back in. I be1ieve. '85 or '86. just an observation. saw two bays there.
and something that it was operating. I be1ieve. under a BP f1ag. and fe1t that they were getting
something that they cou1d repair and offer to their dea1er. Getty is. again, se11ing petro1eum products
to their dea1ers. Right now. it's company operated. which is not something that our company wants
to do. The business of gasoJine sa1es is through a dea1er. and in your cases. Getty is not wanting
to take and have peop1e out there se11ing gas. It's just not their business. So. unfortunate1y, that's
what's happening with this 1ocation, because of. One. not choosing, when they initia11y bought the
property. to come in there and operate it as it was. From.!!!l. understanding. it was a repair faci1ity.
and it's what had been operated for years there.
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MR. CARR-It's owned by Getty direct1y, now?
MR. FORTUNE-Getty Petr01eum, yes.
MR. CARR-Okay. Now, do you think, with the repair faci1ity, there's a chance that you can get a 10ca1,
or another owner/operator? Is that what I hear you saying, that somebody wi11 buy it from Getty,
perhaps?
MR. FORTUNE-No. I don't be1ieve that they're, the p1ace is not for sa1e. It's a faci1ity that leemi1t
had picked up and purchased from Sousa, the owner, okay, and they've bought severa1 of these 10cations,
of which they, again, they're in the petr01eum business, and this was an out1et for them, and the
traditiona1 method is to get a dea1er which was there present1y with the BP fJag. There was a dea1er
there. We11, it changed hands, obvious1y, and for some reason they cou1d not strike a dea1 with that
dea1er for, I don't know the reason behind, the past history, but now present1y we cannot get a dea1er
for that 10cation without having the repair bays.
MRS. EGGLESTON-That's what you're asking, isn't it?
MR. FORTUNE-Yes.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Getty wi11 not run the station. You wi11 1ease it, or you'11 find a manager, or it's
1ike a franchise?
MR. FORTUNE-Type set up.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Franchise type set up. What wou1d the hours be?
MR. FORTUNE-I wou1d want to say no more, five to twe1ve, five in the morning unti1 twe1ve at night.
Again, that's something that, what we have as hours that other p1aces have and we wou1d 1ike to keep.
Not that it wou1d be operated that way, we'd just 1ike to have that opportunity.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Seven days a week?
MR. FORTUNE-I beJieve it's open seven days, or we wou1d want it to be. We cou1d restrict the repairs,
if that were a prob1em, so that there's no Sunday, in fact, there wou1dn't be any Sunday repair on
the vehic1es.
MR. CARVIN-I remember when it was in operation as a garage, but I don't remember how 10ng. Do you
remember how 10ng it's been dormant, approximate1y?
MR. FORTUNE-I be1feve that Sousa was purchased by leemi1t Petr01eum in '86. That's.!!!l. understanding
of it. So, it's about six years.
MR. TURNER-H.G. Andersen came for a variance for a canopy in March of '89.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes, I was going to say, that's since I was on here. So, it's got to be after '88.
MR. TURNER-And they indicated then, because the same question came up as to repairs. They indicated
then that they didn't need to do any repair work there. That gas sa1es were sufficient.
MR. FORTUNE-Yes.
MR. TURNER-I can remember when the peop1e were in there that were doing the repair work, they didn't
1ast very 10ng. They were in and out and gone. So, it's not rea11y a viab1e station for repair work,
just because of where it is.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Are you saying that you've operated at a 10ss, actua11y fi1ed a net 10ss on the? You
say you're not ab1e to get a reasonab1e financia1 return. Does that mean you've operated at a 10ss
since the time you bought the?
MR. FORTUNE-We cannot operate the faci1ity, a dea1er wi11 not take the facUity without the repair
because, and the efforts has tried to make it with the gaso1fne sa1es, which Getty has traditiona11y
done. They've tried just to have gas01ine sa1es, and we cannot make it with the group over there.
The dea1er wi11 not stay. There's no margin for them to make it, and we've 10st them. We've gotten
another person in. In fact, we've had someone in there, and they were going with the understanding
that our 1ease reads that they wou1d be ab1e to use the faci1ity as it is, and in turn found out, 1ater
we were stopped by the Bui1ding Officia1, or they were stopped by the BuUding Officia1 because of
this one having not a continuing, it's not part of the property itseH, that we cannot do repairs.
So, we 10st that dea1er, again. So, now there are peop1e in there, hired by Getty, to just keep the
faci1ity open so we don't 10se permits and have to pu11 tanks and such for the property.
MR. TURNER-Are you famiJiar with the one in South G1ens Fa11s? Does Getty operate that themse1ves,
right across the Hudson River Bridge on the right?
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.....-"',
MR. FORTUNE-No. I can get information for you, at another meeting. I'd be glad to. I'm not fami1iar
with it, whatever you need for making decisions on this.
MR. TURNER-You own the whole complex, and your only basis for this argument is that you can't get
somebody in there to operate the station unless he has a repair business. Is that correct?
MR. FORTUNE-That is not the only reason. Our equipment costs are such to keep them updated, there's
more than just a bui1ding and an island there. Our tanks and the keeping and monitoring of them and
making sure that they're safe, it's cost the Company, it's an incredible amount of money, and we have
to keep, our prices are up, and the cHmate the way it is, the economic c1imate, we need to keep our
stations operating, and to do that, we have to get as much as we can on our lease agreement. I mean,
financially, it's just not working.
MRS. EGGLESTON-So, to answer mY question, you haven't answered my question, yet. Did Getty operate
at a loss, or have you made money in the years that you've had it, operating it the way it is, without
having a dealer there?
MR. FORTUNE-No one has given me the information. They've asked me to get this, the reason being that
they cannot keep a dealer there, and that's what I've been asked, I can get you whatever you need,
as far as paperwork, to defend what I'm saying.
MRS. EGGLESTON-See, under a use variance, what we're dea1ing with is that the property cannot yield
a reasonable financial return if used for the permissible uses. So, you have to show us that you can't
do that.
MR. FORTUNE-Right. I can't just say yes, or, I'm saying that it cannot.
MR. TURNER-The gasoline station, right? The gasoline station cannot?
MR. FORTUNE-The gaso1ine the way it is set up, with the bays, with it out operating, right now we'11
try it. Will the bays, hopefully, yes. We're hoping that they will give the dealer enough to support
his business there. The gas tanks underground, there's more for the gas station than, again, the
faci1ity that's there, and the equipment and update and scheduHng of that, than the expenses that
are involved in that cannot keep and continua11y, for Getty themselves to maintain things at the
faci1ity, for them to keep the do11ars going for the lease that they can get out of that, and to get
that, again, they need a dealer. The dealer cannot, and we've tried it. It's a proven thing. I mean,
we cannot keep the dealer in there. We have dealers that will go in there if they can the bays opened.
MR. TURNER-Have you updated your tank system? Did Sousa update the tank system? I know you didn't,
but did Sousa?
MR. FORTUNE-I believe that the tanks there are, again, under, up to, I beHeve they are. Again, I
would have to check with the local Fire Marshal on the DED Registration to be sure, and I can provide
that information to you, but I would say that they would be, yes.
MR. CARVIN-Has any thought been given to expanding that into, I'm going to use the term, a convenient
store type of operation, because I think as I remember it's being used just as a storage area right
now, and I believe in the service portion you tried to put in snack booths and things like that. Have
you given any thought to maybe incorporating the bays along that Hne? Do you think that would make
it more?
MR. FORTUNE-Again, Getty Marketing has given me the request for the service bays and not the snack
bar portion of the, they're having a snack mart in there. I think it's more that there's not rea11y
the local base.
MRS. EGGLESTON-You say it as kind of a low key, an occasional tire change, oi1 change or whatnot.
It doesn't make much sense, unless you had quite a lot of over turn, for it to make a difference in
the income, or the value, or the profit of the business. It seems like it would have to have a pretty
good business in the garage to make a difference. Do you agree with that? I mean, this isn't just
a low key, once in a while change a tire, do a little oil change. Do you see my point?
MR. FORTUNE-We11, it would have to be structured by the dealer, knowing the space that he has and the
restrictions that are placed on him, but he can run it on an appointment basis, and I think that he
could market this, possibly, to turn a nice profit. I'm sure that there's others that have done that.
It depends on who the operator is and working within the guidelines ghen. Again, we cannot survhe
with just a gas, we've tried that. What we're trying now is, can someone, with the restrictive bay
use, take it and make it go. We11, that indhidual has the initiathe to keep the thing going where
he does go with an appointment. He advertises in the papers, right, for different things, a speciality
that he's real good at, for a speciality item. Then I would say that it's very possible that he could
make a go of it. There again, it's just, it depends on who that individual is, yes, and, again, if
the restrictions are too strict, we11 then, yes, yes, he couldn't make it, that he can only work on
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one car per day, in any twelve hour period or whatever, yes, but if he has two bays a110tted and he
has the appointments where they've dropped the cars off and he's got one place out there and he has
one person working there, plus one watching the gas, yes, I would say that he could, if he's careful,
gives quality work and he's built himself a reputation. I would think so.
MR. CARR-Mr. Fortune, I think the difficulty is that Getty's not going to operate these bays. They're
going to try to get a dealer or distributor or whoever in there to operate it, and yet you want a blanket
use variance, and use variances, as with a11 variances, are supposed to be minimal in nature, to be
the least intrusive against the Ordinance as possible, and it's hard for us to determine, to set
regulations and rules on a use variance when we don't rea11y know, as you say, what the person's
specialty might be, or what they're looking for. Are they looking to put through 10 cars a day and
keep the people moving? Are they looking to put through three cars a day, or one car a week? It's
very difficult to say that just this use wi11 not be detrimental to the neighborhood, and so it may
be proper to be granted, when we don't know what exactly the use is going to be, other than a bay.
MR. FORTUNE-The use is going to be minor repairs.
MR. CARR-How many, though? I mean, are we talking a full blown garage? Are we talking?
MR. FORTUNE-We11, there's only two bays with one 1ift, and there's only so much, as far as the number
of units you could turn through there. I mean, it's not a drive through type Jiffy lube thing, where
you could advertise, something to be in competition with that organization, right?
MR. CARR-Well, maybe that would be less intrusive to the neighborhood, if you've got a car that's only
there for 10 minutes, for an on change, as opposed to five cars that need minor repairs, but they've
got to stay over night, so we're going to park them here, here, and here, and then. well, they didn't
come and pick it up today, but I've got three more guy's appointments here. So, where are we going
to put these cars? I mean, I think that's what a lot of concern is, is how many cars can this little
peninsula be placed on it, when you get employees, mechanics, people in the retail space, an apartment.
That's a lot of people who are just there dai1y, before you even put in the people that are going to
leave their cars there to be repaired up to 48 hours, or longer. It's hard to make a decision and
make the proper decision when we aren't really sure exactly who wants to use it for what.
MR. FORTUNE-But see the zoning rules are based on not knowing who's using what for what. They're based
on an area that you're in. So, I mean, as far as I'm concerned, with the restrictions placed on it,
if we a110w two parking spaces for those two bays, I would say that that's fairly restrictive to any
organization that, basica11y, you have four cars on the lot at one time, for that particular accessory
use, I would say that was fairly restrictive, and it also, it would control whatever organization that
was there, and, basically, help out a small business man. I think that the Zoning Ordinances restrict
pieces of property in a general way.
MR. TURNER-We11, yes, that might be true, but I'd have to say to you that if you put a guy in there,
you get a dealer to work that station, and he doesn't turn a profit, he's got to pay whatever the rent
is every month, and he's going to do what he has to do to make the rent, or he's going to leave.
MR. FORTUNE-Right, and he, again, would have to try again as they're trying now, to survive in this
market.
MR. TURNER-Right, and another thing, I just looked at a print. You have unloading zone for tanker,
and it's right in front of the bay doors for the service station. When that tanker's in there, he's
not going to get any cars in there.
MR. FORTUNE-Again, the dropping point, or dropping time can be regulated.
MR. TURNER-Yes, he can come at night or something like that, but I mean, if he comes in the day time,
then that's going to put a kink in his business operation.
MR. CARVIN-Yes, but Ted, I don't think it was a problem when it was an existing one a few years ago.
The tanks have always been in that general area.
MR. TURNER-I know, but it's changed a whole lot since then. Sokol's Plaza has gone in there. Some
professional offices have gone in there. They weren't there before. There's an apartment right across
the street.
MRS. EGGLESTON-See, mY problem is, you're not going to be able to control whomever you get as a manager.
If he wants a use variance, you should get a manager, and he should come here and spe11 out exactly
whathe's going to do, what his hours are, what he wi1l advertise to do in the garage, how he wi1l
limit the scale of use, what impact it will have on the residential areas, which are near this garage,
like will he be out there at eleven o'clock at night repairing a tire, banging, and there are residential
neighbors near this corner, and once you get this, I mean, you can lease it or whatever your manager,
however you do that, and you've lost the control. You're here to speak, but you're not going to control
what's going to be done there. Someone else is going to, and if it means making ends meet to pay Getty,
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he has to work night and day. He's going to try to do it. That's what we have to look at, in mY mind,
is what, the whole impact of what's going to be there, and you're just saying, give me an open blanket
to use these bay garages.
MR. FORTUNE-I don't believe that that's what I've been saying.
MR. CARR-No. I think you hearing you'11 put restrictions on these, but the problem with us putting
them on is we aren't in the petroleum se11ing business. I mean, our restrictions may not be practical
with what a dealer needs. I mean, we don't rea11y know the gas business to know what is needed, how
many cars have to go through, and just to further what Mrs. Eggleston had said before, and I don't
blame you because you may be not familiar with New York Zoning law, but for use variances, you do need
some dollars and cents evidence saying that.
MR. FORTUNE-Right, and I said that I could provide it.
MR. CARR-Okay, provide it, and that's what I'm saying.
MR. FORTUNE-And I wi11 provide this. Again, it's hard for us to come up here with a dealer when we
don't have a, we're on the other side of the coin. We don't have a facility that we can offer as a.
MR. CARR-Wen, how about, since you're in the business, you come to us with what you need. This is
the minimum I need. These are the restrictions that we could live with.
MR. FORTUNE-I believe, on my plans, I have noted some of them. I've also expressed here at this meeting
that I would, again, restrict the number of parking for the bays to two. I've also given hours. I
can give that no working will be done except on an emergency basis after five o'clock for the bays.
MR. CARR-I mean, that's the type of information we'd be looking for, and if you put it a11 together,
it would help us to make a better decision, also, I think there's people here from the public who want
to speak on this application, and their input is important as well.
MR. TURNER-Any further questions? Okay. Thank you. We might have some in a few minutes. I'll now
open the public hearing.
PUBLIC HEARING OPENED
MICHEllE REYNOLDS
MS. REYNOLDS-Hi. My name is Miche11e Reynolds. I live on the corner of Helen and Dixon. If I
understand correctly, this property is a nonconforming use?
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MS. REYNOLDS-It has a grandfather c1ause, however, granting a variance for this a property would be
increasing the nonconformity of the use of the property. The nonconformity being the fact that the
Queensbury Code states, in NC-10 zones, at least 10,000 square feet of land will be required to establish
any a110wable use of up to 2,000 square feet of gross floor area for commercial space. I'd just like
to read from a book I have here a Jittle bit about nonconforming use. "Moreover, assuming that such
a (nonconforming) use is shown, respondents may not enlarge that use as a matter of right. A more
detai1ed statement of the law in this State contro11ing the expansion or enlargement of nonconforming
uses is contained in the case of Town of Carmel v. Meadowbrook National Bank,...And it is well settled
that, where an owner of premises has a vested right to continue a particular use of premises which
is nonconforming at the time of the enactment of a zoning ordinance Jimiting the use of the same, he
may not enlarge upon that use as a matter of right. The right to continue a nonconforming use is the
right to continue the same use and not to continue a materia11y enlarged nonconforming use or a
materially different use which is nonconforming." I believe this pertains to this premises.
MR. TURNER-Okay. Anyone else wish to be heard in opposition to the application?
CONNIE REED
MRS. REED-My name is Connie Reed, and I live on Helen Drive. I have some questions to address, perhaps
this gentleman here. I am very concerned, as a former school teacher, about the congestion in the
area. Does this not pose another hazard who have to board and exit school buses. There are six bus
stop pickups by the apartment in the vicinity each week day. There are some on Helen Drive and Aviation
Road and there are also pickups in front of the apartment. I think this would only add to more
congestion in the area. I'm also very concerned about the noise and air and water po11ution, and this
would, in reality, add to the po11ution in the area, especia11y the noise from five in the morning
unti1 twelve at night. We are not Jiving in New York City. I hope not. I also understand, I might
be wrong, but is there not supposed to be an elderly handicapped bui1ding, apartment building going
up across the way? I heard something about that. I'm not sure.
MRS. CRAYFORD-Yes, there is.
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MR. TURNER-That's on the other side of the road.
MRS. REED-No, but those people would also have to come out on Aviation Road.
MR. TURNER-I can't tell you where that is in the works, yet.
MRS. REED-I would think that also would present another problem, but these are some of mY concerns.
Thank you very much. One other thing, if I may, the gentleman said Getty was pleading a hardship case
because they're not pumping enough gas. We11, where does the money go from the apartment? Who gets
the money? They have an apartment upstairs. Doesn't Getty own that complex, the apartment, and what
about the two stores down below? Who receives that money? Isn't it Getty? Thank you.
MR. TURNER-Anyone else wish to be heard in opposition to the application?
PHIL JACKSON
MR. JACKSON-My name's Phil Jackson. I live at 76 Helen Drive, around the corner. My two main concerns
for this zoning variance would be, I think, noise, and possibly added congestion. An example of the
two bay operation that is relatively successful in the area is on Cranda11 Street in Glens Fa11s.
I'm a small businessman. If a guy's going to go in there and pay what it's going to take to take over
the lease and to be relatively successful, you did address and touch on the issue of congestion with
cars, for the customers for the repair service. There's rea11y 1imited space. I think a reasonable
example of what happens when you put in a repair service to get successful and you don't have adequate
parking is the situation over on Cranda11 in Glens Fa11s. I'd hate to see that happen over on Dixon.
MR. TURNER-Anyone else?
DEL MALDER
MR. MAlDER-I'm Del Malder. I live on 24 Helen Drive. I'm speaking on two capacities, actua11y. I'll
start with the first, and that's individua11y. What I'd like to do is just review with you, probably
most of you know, although a couple of you here are younger than I am, or more, but I moved to Queensbury
in 1969, and I can reca11 Queensbury extending as far as Centennial Ave., West Glen was the new street
on the block when I lived here. There was no ma11. Aviation Road went across the Northway and then
it cut down and went near where McDonalds now is. There was an old Mobil station, at that time, on
the corner of Glen and Aviation. I recall a Texaco station, being, now, where the Silo is. As I recall,
that had a couple of bays for repair work. That went out of business. The Silo came in. At that
time, the Price Chopper Mini mart, I do not believe, was there, as a gas station. I believe they are
there across the street from the She 11 station. The Mobil station had come in, since the Northway
had just been put in a year before, and there was a gas station, which, for me, is known as the Henry
Slate property. For some reason, he managed to maintain a piece of his farm as commercial property
and he maintained a gas station at that location. There was not much residential property in the area.
It was mainly the vacant property. Times have changed. One of the gas stations that I can reca11
has gone out of business. That's where the Silo is. A couple of new gas stations have come in. The
gas stations, to start with the MobiJ, on the corner of Aviation and Glen, that's strictly gas. You
go up the street, you've got Price Chopper who used to have a couple of bays, I believe, is now strictly
gas. You go to the AM PM, or the Arco next store, it's stiJl strictly gas. Across the street you've
got the She11 station. They do have repair. I'm not sure just how much work they do, but that is
one of the repair shops that are stiJl open. If you go across the Northway, and then you've got the
Mobil station, strictly gas. You go up to the Getty station, Getty now, they have been operating with
strictly gas for quite some time. I think the real problem that Getty has is the fact that you now
have Stewarts, and Stewarts comes in and they don't have repair, but they have gas that's cheaper than
Getty. I live there. I used to go to the Getty station. Stewarts comes in, and they are consistently
two, three, four cents a gallon cheaper than Getty. There's no point in going to Getty for the gas.
I don't think the problem that Getty has has anything to do with the property. I think it has to do
with the competition in the area, and I think that's where the real problem is. I don't think that
that is reason enough for this Board to grant Getty a variance. That would be 1ike saying that mY
since I have a law office on Western Avenue and mY income is down 30 percent from what it was last
year, that you should grant me a right for him to put a commercial property. That's just part of the
times. It's something you've got to live through. The second point I'd 1ike to make is that, it's
my understanding that when you're looking for a use variance, it's a use variance for the property,
and this property is used for more than just a gas station. The comment has before about some of the
things for some of the commercial businesses that are here, all right. I can reca11 that there's been
a barber shop on that property. I be1ieve that there was a real estate agency there for a while.
There may have been a florist there for a while. There's been a video store there for a while. There
are many permitted uses for this piece of property that wi11 generate income for the owners of this
property. This property is not going to go down the tubes, and Getty is not going to go down the tubes
if this Board doesn't grant them that use variance. There are a lot of uses that this property can
be used for, without giving it the extended use, going beyond the permitted uses of a two bay garage
or a one bay garage at this particular site. The property is making income or Getty wouldn't have
been here this long, and Getty wouldn't have bought it in the first place. What I envision, when I
6
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think in terms of a two stall garage, is a garage similar to the one that's being operated by Clarence
Marsh. I beJieve it's the Mobil station on Glen Street, and what I see are cars constantly parked
in front of this operation. I see three, four, five tow trucks parked there. I see cars that have
been in accidents being stored there, I'm sure at a cost, and even though I have no objection to where
this is located. It's located in a strictly commercial area. I'm not offended by it, but this type
of faci1ity, in an area where you have apartments directly across the street, you have residences
directly across the street, you have a school just down the street, with, I have got a young chi1d,
creating a problem with traffic, creating a problem with visibility. I would request that this Board
deny any kind of application for an extended or expanded use for this particular property. It's not
what it used to be. It is a residential area. There is a commercial island here. We all bought when
the commercial island was there, but I certainly don't wish to see that commercial island expanded
for additional uses. There are plenty of uses already existing, permitted for that property. There's
a second capacity, I've been asked to speak, tonight, on behaH of the Evergreen Estates Homeowners
Association. Evergreen Estates is a development that is located, the best way to explain it, I guess,
is directly behind Sokol's Market, but we have Helen Drive, which accesses on Aviation Road, just
westerly of the Getty property, and then there's another access to Evergreen Estates which is further
down Dixon Road, at the extension of Midnight, we have two accesses there. I'm aware that the Board
for the Association has met and they have polled the homeowners from the Evergreen Estates, and the
consensus of the Association and the owners in that particular development is that they are genera11y
opposed to any kind of expanded or extended use for this particular piece of property. What we have,
or what the Association has done is prepare a petition. They have secured signatures. I am not sure
just how many there are, but I would 1ike to present the petition requesting that the application be
denied. These are of owners of property in the Evergreen Estates, and basica11y that their concerns
or objections are as follows, again, this is in general. The property owners are worried and concerned
about available parking. In particular, and this issue has already been addressed, if you look at
the property, and I see that some of you have survey maps of the property. It is not a large parcel
of property. There are commercial uses being placed upon that property. Those commercial uses entail
parking spaces, and without having looked at the drawings, I cannot imagine where there'11 be any
additional parking on that property. The second concern or objection, and again, these are falling
into one or the other of both categories is the type of motor vehicle repairs to be done on this
property, again, that issue's been addressed. I won't go over it, other than what's going to happen,
when is it going to happen, again, how many cars are going to be backed up, how many cars are going
to be parked there, how much noise is there going to be. All of these are concerns that have already
been expressed. The next concern, the unsightly accumulation of vehicles. Again, I'll refer back
to my reference to the Mobil station on Glen Street. With a11 of the cars parked there, with the cars
that have been in accidents stored there, the tow trucks, are we going to have that, and I'm not sure
if we are. The indication is that we're not, but I don't know. The next issue is the health and safety
of children and pedestrians, again. From the homeowners association, mYself inc1uded, summer days
it's very, very nice to take the kids and to walk up Helen Drive, go across the Dixon Road. You can
go to Sokol's for ice cream. You can go to Stewarts for ice cream cones. It's a very nice evening
out, and with the additional parking and the additional cars coming and going, it's going to create
a greater hazard than already exists. It's already a very busy, Dixon Road in particular is a very
busy street. As I mentioned before, increased noise and the increased potential traffic control
problems, additional cars, additional traffic are problems caused by this.
MR. TURNER-Can we have that petition?
MR. MALDER-Yes.
MR. TURNER-Thank you. Anyone else wish to be heard?
GARY POSTER
MR. POSTER-Hi. I'm Gary Poster. I Jive on 29 Helen Drive. The only thing I didn't remember being
addressed was, I know when my vehicle, I'm having problems with it, I'll have to bring it in to a
mechanic, and sometimes they'll have to do a test drive, and I know mY daughter, when she was going
to kindergarten, the stop is maybe 150 feet right from there, and if you do a test drive and you come
out, the parents aren't there and the kid gets dropped off or something, and wanders out in the road,
it just concerns me, and just the thing about the test drives is the only thing. I agree with everything
else that's been mentioned, the parking and stuff. The test drives just bothered me. Plus, the
mechanic has to check the car afterwards.
MR. TURNER-Yes. Anyone else wish to be heard in opposition to the application?
PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED
MR. TURNER-Mr. Fortune, could I ask you one question? Do you place any restrictions on your dealers
as to what they can do there, what kind of equipment they can have, what services they can offer?
MR. FORTUNE-We could place that in the lease, yes.
MR. TURNER-No, I say, do you ordinarily do that?
7
MR. FORTUNE-We have. Any time that this arrangement takes place. That's what they're coming in under
there. It's a known thing that you are signing this lease with these provisions. It's the best way
to know something before hand.
MR. TURNER-No. Do you provide anything else, in addition, any other restrictions that .lQ.!! apply,
yourse1ves?
MR. FORTUNE-We have our safety guideJines. Getty has a package that's provided for the maintenance
and instruction of their people, so that they are familiar with the equipment that's on-site, and also
for the times of dropping and the observance of that, and the inventory that's required for DED. Again,
we're a heavily regulated industry. It's not like it was 10 years ago.
MR. TURNER-If the dealer goes in there, is that going to be a registered automobi1e shop? Does it
have to be for repairs?
MR. FORTUNE-As far as a mechanic, he would be a licensed individual, yes, I should think.
MR. TURNER-Yes. No inspection station?
MR. FORTUNE-No. The bays aren't deep enough to provide that, but I don't know that. May I add to
what was said, as far as rebutting some of the comments that were made?
MR. TURNER-Sure.
MR. FORTUNE-One, as far as the fact it was nonconforming, it's my understanding that this is not an
expansion, because the bays were built, they were in operation, and Getty, when they had purchased
this property, as they did in a package. They didn't go out and individua11y buy this location. They
bought 27 of them together. They didn't intentiona11y buy this one. It was part of a package. They
had to buy them all to get any of them. One was that the intent was never to abandon this, any portion
of it. The dealer, whoever the dealer was that they had gotten in at the first place, they knew that
they couldn't cut a lease, or if they just had it as a company operated facility. Again, it was not
Getty's intention to alter, in any, way, shape, or form, the use. This is the provision, right here,
that I must come through to, again, establish, again, the accessory use that had been built at that
location, years ago.
MR. TURNER-Okay. Thank you. Okay. Do you want to discuss it?
MR. CARR-Well, I'm still not comfortable with all the information. I mean, if the applicant so desires,
we'll need a lot more dollars and cents as to what is made from the rental, what's the expenses.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Documented records.
MR. CARR-I think there's quite substantial neighborhood opposition. They all bring up good points,
and I think they have to be weighed heavily in this situation.
MR. CARVIN-The bays are empty right now.
MR. TURNER-They've been empty. Right.
MR. CARVIN-And there are other commercial operations going on. What kind of procedure would there
be, if they decided to put, I don't know, an ice cream shop in there, just for argument's sake? I
mean, does that open up a whole can of worms.
MRS. EGGLESTON-That doesn't fit in the permitted use.
MR. CARVIN-Well, I mean, we've had, a number of people have referred that on that particular building,
there's been a video store, and there's been a florist shop.
MRS. EGGLESTON-None of which have worked.
MR. CARVIN-Well, that's neither here nor there, but, I mean, could Getty fall back and say, well, fine,
we'll just convert this, and convert it into, what is in the back? Does anybody know what is in there
currently?
MR. FORTUNE-Yes. There's a little print shop, and there's also a carpet sales, which does their work
off premise, basically.
MR. CARVIN-Technically, you cou1d probably convert this into the video store. Is that correct, I mean
the bays?
MR. FORTUNE-Not the bays, but the back area has been a video location, but again, they're traffic,
if you worrying traffic, we would have more control of the service unit with traffic and control traffic
than we would with any other type of retailer.
8
MRS. CRAYFORD-Mr. Chairman, any retai1 operation out of those bays would require a lot more parking.
I don't think they would, they'd have to apply for a parking variance. Retail would be almost impossible
out of there.
MR. CARVIN-Wen, I guess mY point is, this, in a fashion, constitutes a hardship, because they've got
dead space there. I mean, if they can't convert it into a bookstore or something else, and they can't
use it as it is currently structured, and it was a preexisting situation, are we opening a can of worms?
MRS. EGGLESTON-Fred, he has to show, according to the use variance criteria, and he has to show on
records, not just come in here and say, I can't make money. I mean, the facts are, maybe he's making
$5,000 a year and they want to make $10,000 a year. That doesn't mean, I mean, we an want to make
more money, but the criteria says, in order for us to approve a use variance, that the appJicant has
to prove that he cannot yield a reasonable financial return if used for the permissible uses of the
zone, and he hasn't shown that, in my mind.
MR. FORTUNE-I think that the location has shown it, just by the fact that we can't keep the people
in there, and I have offered to get you paperwork on it. It was unavailable to me to get the paperwork
for you. I would be glad to offer the numbers on it and why each individual left. I can get you a
history from the day we opened, or the company opened it.
MR. TURNER-Well, if you want to table the application and bring the information back.
MR. FORTUNE-I'd be glad to do that. I offered that right from the start.
MR. CARR-I think you know that, I would also suggest that, with the tabling, that you do supply us
with what you propose as the hours of operation. The lady over here was concerned about mechanics
from five to midnight. I took that to mean that you meant gas from five to midnight, and maybe the
mechanics for some other time, but, see, this is the type of information that I think, for everyone
to have an informed decision, everyone has to know what exactly are you proposing to do there? How
many cars? Where are they going to be parked? What are your hours of operation? What kind of mechanics
and repairs are you going to do there, and give us the list of what, the restrictions that you propose,
that you can live with and you think the neighborhood can live with are. I would also suggest, I mean,
you know that a lot of the neighbors here are in opposition. Perhaps, you could prior to the next
meeting, if it's convenient, have somebody discuss them with the homeowners association, because they
seemed to be, at least, an organized body, that that is echoing a lot of the concerns that the
neighborhood has, and if you maybe can come to some joint resolution, maybe we could solve this for
everybody, but if everybody doesn't know what you're proposing to do, and you don't really know what
they're objections are, it's kind of hard to come, at one meeting, and resolve it.
MR. FORTUNE-Right, well, I'm not asking for one meeting, but I di d offer, from the start, that
restrictions would be placed so that we could live in that neighborhood along with everyone else, because
I know that we are being sort of cased with the fact that there were some bad operations in the vicinity,
and around the community that have sort of flagged anyone with any service repairs, that they have
to be, again, responsible, as I offered right from the start. That's what I tried to do, by just
offering an open slate, and, again, if you want me to come back and set the order, then I will be glad
to.
MR. CARR-I would like that, because I don't know what your business is. I mean, I could set you a
real nice little tight plate, and you'd come back and say, I can't live with that.
MR. FORTUNE-Well, yes, somebody's got to set, whoever gives the first price, right?
MR. CARR-Yes, but I don't know your business. I think it would just be helpful to have it an listed
out, so we can distribute it to the people. I just think it would be better for everybody.
MRS. EGGLESTON-You know, Mr. Fortune, in the application that you made out, it stresses that you need
that. It's not like coming and then tabling and bringing back. It says right in your app1ication
what we need.
MR. FORTUNE-I believe that, one, as far as the evidence of knowing, in history, that the people, any
of our dealers have not been able to stay, they have left for a reason. One, that was, for me, certain
evidence from observation of.
MRS. EGGLESTON-May I say, there must be proof of the applicant's inability to reaJize a reasonable
return. Speculation or qualitative assessment is inadequate, failure to reaJize the highest return
is not a hardship. So, that means you've got to have documented papers to show that you're not making
a reasonable return out of the property.
MR. TURNER-For the whole complex.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes, for the whole complex.
9
MR. TURNER-That's all the other stores, not just the gas station. That's the whole complex.
MRS. EGGLESTON-And we have to 1ive with that. I mean, that's the rules, by the zoning law, that's
what we have to have, but it does ask you for that when you signed your application, if you did the
appJication.
MR. TURNER-Okay. So, you wish to table?
MR. FORTUNE-Yes.
MR. TURNER-Okay. When can you get us back the information, next month? You can't get on until next
month. One month? One month.
fI)1ION TO TABLE USE VARIANCE NO. 53-1992 LEEJULT'S/GEm PETROLEUM. CORP., Introduced by Theodore
Turner who moved for its adoption, seconded by Bruce Carr:
At the applicant's request for the information requested by this Board, related to the total piece
of property, financial records related to the property as to the hardship that he claims, and the use
of the bays.
Duly adopted this 17th day of June, 1992, by the following vote:
MRS. CRAYFORD-Is this for July 15 meeting or August meeting?
MR. TURNER-JulY.
MRS. CRAYFORD-July 15?
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MRS. CRAYFORD-Okay. You won't be noticed again.
MR. TURNER-You won't be noticed again, so mark your calendars. It's tabled, so it won't get noticed
again, the 15th of July.
MRS. CRAYFORD-Are you keeping the pub1ic hearing open?
MR. TURNER-The public hearing will be open. I closed it, but I'll re-open it.
AYES: Mr. Carr, Mr. Carvin, Mrs. Eggleston, Mrs. Paling, Mr. Sicard, Mr. Turner
NOES: NONE (8:29 p.m.)
AREA VARIANCE NO. 54-1992 TYPE II RR-SA Ml\RC SHEARER OWNER: SAtE AS ABOVE RIDGE ROAD FOR
CONSTRUCTION OF A 2 CAR GARAGE. 9 FT. FROM THE SIDE PROPERTY LINE IN LIEU OF THE RE(JIIRED 30 FT. SETBACK.
(WARREN COUNTY PlANNING) TAX MP NO. 21-1-31 LOT SIZE: 131 FT. BY 200 FT. SECTION 179-15
MARC SHEARER, PRESENT (8:29 p.m.)
STAFF INPUT
Notes from Patricia Crayford, Zoning Administrator, Area Variance No. 54-1992, Marc Shearer, June 17,
1992, Meeting Date: June 17, 1992 "Marc Shearer is requesting an area variance to construct a 2 car
garage 21 ft. from the south property line which would require a 9 ft. variance and 24 ft. from the
front property Jine which would require a 26 ft. variance. The application and the setbacks shown
from the front property line are misleading. It would appear the setback of 53 ft. is from the center
of the road and not from the front property 1 ine."
MRS. EGGLESTON-And the Warren County Planning Board returned, "No County Impact".
MR. TURNER-Mr. Shearer.
MR. SHEARER-I'm Mark Shearer.
MR. TURNER-Do you agree with her comment as to the 53 ft., versus the?
MR. SHEARER-No, 53 feet is from the end of the road to.
MR. TURNER-No, it has to go from the property line, not the edge of the road.
MR. SHEARER-From the property line?
MR. TURNER-Yes.
10
MR. SHEARER-I guess I would agree with that.
MR. TURNER-So, I guess, you scaled it off?
MRS. CRAYFORD-Yes.
MR. TURNER-Twenty six feet? You need a 26 foot variance there.
MR. SHEARER-Where is the 26 feet needed?
MR. TURNER-From your property line.
MRS. CRAYFORD-From your property line.
MR. TURNER-From your front property line, right here, Mark, not from the center of the road, or the
edge of the road. That's where it's supposed to be taken.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Is there any reason you couldn't put the garage back further? I noticed a lot of room
there, other than a small wood pile, then you wouldn't need the front setback? Could you put it back,
like, beside the house?
MR. SHEARER-Wen, I could, but it wouldn't look nice back there. There's, everything is on the right
side of the house now. Putting the garage over there would look off key. It wouldn't be very attractive
at al1.
MRS. EGGLESTON-like, what is on the right side of the house?
MR. SHEARER-Well, where we have the house right now, there's a shed right there now, and we have just
put a pool in in the back of the house, on the right side of the house. Everything's on the right
side now.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes, well then maybe not go back that far. Could you go back, somewhat further?
MR. CARR-Is that where your well is?
MR. SHEARER-From on the site, now, the well would be approximately eight feet easterly from the garage.
MR. CARR-So, if you move the garage, you're covering your well access, right?
MRS. EGGLESTON-No. That's the south side. He said his well's easterly.
MR. CARR-It's on the map.
MR. TURNER-The well's right there behind the garage.
MR. SHEARER-I didn't read anything about a 20 foot setback, a 26 foot setback, all I had was a 53 setback
from the edge of the road, or a 50 foot, excuse me, from the edge of the road.
MR. CARR-No, it's from your front property line, not the edge of the road.
MR. SHEARER-The front property line, 26 feet?
MR. CARR-No, 50 feet from the front property line.
MR. TURNER-You have to have a relief of 26 feet, if you put it there.
MR. CARR-Your property doesn't go to the road.
MR. SHEARER-Yes, 10 feet is.
MR. CARR-It looks like yours might be a little more than 10 feet.
MR. TURNER-That road's probably 75 feet wide right-of-way down through there.
MR. SHEARER-This is news to me.
MRS. CRAYFORD-We must have discussed it when you came in, but maybe you misunderstood me.
MR. SHEARER-A 11 I understood was I would need 50 feet from the edge of the road to the si de of the
garage. That's what I understood.
MRS. CRAYFORD-As I said, you must have misunderstood.
11
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MRS. EGGLESTON-Is that the well? Is that black dot supposed to be the well?
MR. SHEARER-Yes.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Which would be right in back of the.
MR. TURNER-Six inch well casings, yes.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Okay.
MR. SHEARER-So, I would have to go, approximately, another 20 feet.
MR. TURNER-You'd have to put the garage on the other side of the we11 casing, if you moved it back.
Any problem with that, since you enter from the side?
MR. SHEARER-No, I can do that. That would be fine.
MR. TURNER-Would that work out all right for you?
MR. SHEARER-Yes.
MR. TURNER-Twenty six, that would give you fifty six feet, twenty six feet of relief, and twenty's,
forty four, right? Yes. That would put him back 44 feet. That would cut down the relief on the front.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes.
MR. CARR-What's the size of the garage?
MR. SHEARER-Twenty four by twenty four.
MR. CARR-Wen, if you move it to the other side of the wen, and he needs 26 of relief, the garage
is currently 8 feet from the wen toward the road, 24 and 8 is 32. So, if it goes to just the other
side of the well, that's 32 plus the original 24, which is over 50.
MR. TURNER-Where did you see eight feet, Bruce?
MR. CARR-I think that's what Mr. Shearer just said. Didn't you say your garage, you're going to place
it about eight feet from the existing well?
MR. SHEARER-That's this site now. It's eight feet away from it now.
MR. CARR-I don't think it's to scale here on the map, but if you take the 8 and the 24, he'll be more
than far enough away from the front.
MR. TURNER-Yes. He'll be far enough. He doesn't need any relief.
MR. CARR-If he builds it on the other side of the well.
MRS. EGGLESTON-So, we'd only have to give a side line.
MR. TURNER-Just a side yard setback.
MR. CARR-Right.
MRS. CRAYFORD-How far would it be from the house?
MRS. EGGLESTON-Quite a ways.
MR. TURNER-Without a scale, you can't tell.
MRS. CRAYFORD-But, I mean, we wouldn't have the 10 foot problem.
MR. CARR-Has anybody got a ruler?
MRS. CRAYFORD-Yes, I've got mine. The scale's a little off, it's not too bad, on the plan.
MR. CARR-Going a straight line from the house to the we11 dot, it looks to me about 35 feet. So, if
you take 10 from the house, then you've got a 24 foot garage. That would give you 34 feet. That would
put it right next to the well.
MR. TURNER-Yes.
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MR. SHEARER-I would have 45 feet between the far side of the garage.
MR. CARR-Between the far side of the garage and the house?
MR. SHEARER-Right, the east side of the garage, and the front corner of the house.
MR. CARR-You'd have how many feet?
MR. SHEARER-About 45.
MR. CARR-Mr. Shearer, could you come up? I don't know if we're talking about the same spot. I'm talking
about kind of flip flopping the garage over to here.
MR. SHEARER-Right. Okay. See, what I was looking is this 122 feet.
MR. CARR-No, okay, forget this.
MR. SHEARER-But I was using that for the calculations.
MR. CARR-Right.
MR. SHEARER-And you deduct the 53 from this, and the 24, you have 45.
MR. CARR-Right. Okay. Forty five from here?
MR. SHEARER-Yes.
MR. CARR-Okay. So, yes, this has got to be 10 feet away from the house, and then you've got a 24 foot
garage. So, you should have no problem being close to the lot a couple of feet. This should be okay.
MRS. EGGLESTON-What would be the relief on the side, Bruce?
MR. CARR-Still nine.
MRS. EGGLESTON-It still would be nine? Okay.
MR. CARVIN-I would think nine would be more than enough.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes.
MR. SHEARER-It would be even less, because as this goes further east, it gets wider. It'11 vary a
few inches, but not feet.
MR. CARR-Okay. Are you going to build it according to this?
MR. SHEARER-Yes.
MR. CARR-And it's only 24 feet wide?
MR. SHEARER-Yes, 24 by 24.
MR. CARR-You don't need a variance, according to the scale. He doesn't need a variance, according
to this scale.
MR. SHEARER-Well, I'd still need the 30 feet.
MR. TURNER-Thirty feet.
MR. CARR-It's 30 feet?
MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes, 30, Bruce.
MR. CARR-Sorry.
thought it was a 20 foot back there.
MRS. EGGLESTON-No, 30.
MR. TURNER-Thirty feet.
MR. SHEARER-Where it was, it would be approximately 2I. So, now it's probably 20 or 19 and a half
or something close to that.
13
MRS. EGGLESTON-Are you going to have to move your driveway anyway, to go right into the garage?
MR. SHEARER-No. We're just going to build, like, an eight foot blacktop going to the garage.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Go up the driveway, and then go over like this into the garage?
MR. SHEARER-No, straight in and then up, back to the garage.
MR. TURNER-You're not going to have a turning radius in the front?
MR. SHEARER-No.
MR. TURNER-It's up to you.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Okay. So, you're driveway's going to stay the same?
MR. SHEARER-Yes.
MRS. EGGLESTON-You're just going to come up and go in like this to your garage?
MR. SHEARER-Yes.
MRS. EGGLESTON-But you're going to put it up this side of the wen, up in here 1ike this. So, we're
all set. The only thing you need is the side?
MR. CARVIN-Yes, which we figured about 12 foot.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Twelve feet?
MR. CARR-Twelve feet of relief. It's got to be 18 feet from the side line.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Okay.
MR. TURNER-Okay. If there's no further questions for the applicant, I'll open the public hearing.
PUBLIC HEARING OPENED
NO COJIENT
PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED
MR. TURNER-Motion's in order.
MOTION TO APPROVE AREA VARIANCE NO. 54-1992 MRC SHEARER, Introduced by Bruce Carr who moved for its
adoption, seconded by Theodore Turner:
As modified with the consent of the applicant tonight. The variance would be a variance of 12 feet
from the required 30 foot side line setback on the southerly lot line of the premises, for the
construction of a two car garage. The applicant has demonstrated that due to this configuration of
the lot and its width, it is impractical for a garage to be placed on this property, without the
necessity of a side lot line variance. The relief granted is the minimum relief necessary to alleviate
the difficulty encountered with this property. It is not detrimental to the purposes of the Ordinance,
nor will it adversely effect public services or utilities.
Duly adopted this 17th day of June, 1992, by the following vote:
AYES: Mr. Carvin, Mrs. Eggleston, Mrs. Paling, Mr. Sicard, Mr. Carr, Mr. Turner
NOES: NONE (8:48 p.m.)
AREA VARIANCE NO. 55-1992 TYPE II LC-lOA DUNHAM'S BAY FISH I GAtE CWB, INC. OWNER: D.B.F. I.
G., PATRICK EPPIDICO, PRES. ROUTE 9L, 2.75 MILES NORlH OF ROUTE 149, EAST SIDE OF ROAD TO CONSTRUCT
A 40 FT. BY 80 FT. BUILDING (JlJLTI USE), 80 FT. FROM THE FR(JtT PROPERTY LINE IN LIEU OF THE RE~IRED
100 FT. SETBACK. (WARREN COUNTY) TAX MP NO. 22-2-1.2, 2 lOT SIZE: 20 ACRES SECTION 179-13
CHARLES FONTAINE, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT (8:48 p.m.)
STAFF INPUT
Notes from Patricia Crayford, Zoning Administrator, Area Variance No. 55-1992, Dunham's Bay Fish &
Game Club, Inc., June 17, 1992, Meeting Date: June 17, 1992 "Dunham's Bay Fish & Game Club is located
in a land Conservation 10 acre zone. The required front setback is 100 ft. and this 40 ft. by 80 ft.
multi-use building will be located 80 ft. from the front property line. This use of the property,
sportsman c1ub and firing range, is a permitted Type II use in this zone."
14
MRS. EGGLESTON-And the Warren County Planning Board recommendation to return, comments, "The Board
could not take action on this project because after two members had abstained, a majority vote could
not be acquired."
MR. TURNER-Mr. Fontaine.
MR. FONTAINE-My name is Charles Fontaine and I'm here representing the Dunham's Bay Fish and Game Club.
MR. TURNER-This is going to replace the building that's there now, right?
MR. FONTAINE-Yes, and no, eventua11y. We have a bui1ding fund which we have been working on for about
15 years. Our first step is to put up this building. Hopefu11y, next year, we will be able to tear
down the old building and have a wing to this building, with this 80 foot setback, 1iving within that
80 foot setback. I have a couple of drawings here that might be a little more helpful than that large
scale, if you'd Jike to look at them. I also have an aerial photo of the range. This is your firing
range, the covered portion there, and this is where we'd 1i ke to put the new building. This is the
old building, and after we do this building, the next would be to add on here. That would be next
year or the year after. when we get money enough to do it. Here is our existing septic field. You
can see it in that picture, that green area just above your finger. Now, in order to duplicate that
anywhere else would cost us more than what this building is going to cost to build.
MR. TURNER-Right.
MR. FONTAINE-And it just isn't practical for us to try to locate somewhere else. Our first thought
was to locate it here, but we only have 48 feet between this building and this.
MR. TURNER-And that firing line.
MR. FONTAINE-And if we put a 40 foot building in, snow coming off both roofs is going to make a big
problem. This is the only practical way to go that we can see.
MR. TURNER-Single story, two stories?
MR. FONTAINE-Yes. It'll be about a nine foot cei1ing with a 4/12 pitched gable roof. It win be on
a cement slab.
MR. TURNER-Okay. Are you going to put your kitchen utilities and stuff in there?
MR. FONTAINE-It will go in this building.
MR. TURNER-It's going to go in there?
MR. FONTAINE-We win leave the existing club house, and we win build this. When we get money enough
to build this addition here, then we'll tear down the old club house and we will have the entire thing
on an 80 foot setback. This existing bui1ding will be torn down. We will sti11 be able to utilize
the existing septic field.
MR. TURNER-Okay. Thank you.
MR. CARR-I guess the question I would ask is, why not turn it 90 degrees?
MR. FONTAINE-Well, we can't, let me show you here. If we turn it here, it would extend out into what
is our camping lot, here. We don't want to give up that space. We don't have much more than enough
area for people who come away with campers. This is a lot where they can camp for a couple of days,
out of the way.
MR. CARR-Okay.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. You indicated that the new building will be on a slab. Is that correct?
MR. FONTAINE-Yes.
MR. CARVIN-You're going to have an indoor archery range?
MR. FONTAINE-That's one of the things, it win be a multi use building. My first objective, if I'm
a bench rest shooter, I'm looking for a place where we can get in under cover without having, every
time we have a shoot, trying to put up tarpaulins and canopies to shelter the people from the weather
and so on. If we have this building, our bench rest shooters will be able to go in out of the weather,
clean their rifJes, and as I say, be out of the weather. Bench resters will use it about 15 days a
year. The rest of the time, hopefully, archery is a big thing, at the present time. There are several
ranges around the area, Hudson Falls, Salem, Hartford, that are used almost every night, people shooting
15
archery, practicing, and we'd like to get in on that and possibly attract a few more members and if
we could attract 10 more members, hopefuny get one of them who's wining to help out and do some of
the work around. That's about the average.
MR. CARVIN-Okay, but it will be an indoor archery range as it is planned right now?
MR. FONTAINE-It would be adaptable to that, yes.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. Do you have any plans, at this point, for an indoor firing range?
MR. FONTAINE-Not at the present time.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. How about in the addition, if you put your other little wing on there, would you
have an indoor at that point?
MR. FONTAINE-No. That would be too sman. Eighty feet is the minimum we could use for an archery
range. Your targets are 60 feet from the firing range. You'd need about five feet to set up the
targets, and that leaves you 15 feet on the firing end for people to stand or move about. Eighty feet
is just about minimum that we can live with for an archery range.
MR. CARVIN-That's assuming that if it's all open, too.
MR. FONTAINE-That'll be totally open, no poles.
MR. CARVIN-Are you going to have a kitchen? Did I read in here kitchen facilities and things?
MR. FONTAINE-We have those in the existing club house. The existing c1ub house win stay there untiJ,
hopefuny in the very near future, we'11 be back again for another variance to add to this building
a new club house. At that point, we'11 tear down what is, I won't can it an eyesore, but it's not
the prettiest piece of property in Town. We've made a lot of improvement up there in the last 20 years,
and we hope that very shortly it will be something that the entire Town will be proud of.
MR. TURNER-Okay. Any other questions? None? Okay. let me open the public hearing.
PUBLIC HEARING OPENED
MAX COFFIN
MR. COFFIN-Hi. I'm Max Coffin. I live just down the road from the Fish and Game Club. They've expanded
tremendously in the last 14 years that I've been up there. Up to a point, they did a very good job.
Now the things gotten entirely out of hand, I believe. He mentioned there's 15 weekends a year that
they use it for.
MR. FONTAINE-No, 12.
MR. COFFIN-And then how many for muzzle loaders?
MR. FONTAINE-We haven't had any muzzle loaders in several years, other than people in there practicing.
MR. COFFIN-With cannons.
MR. FONTAINE-Not cannons, no.
MR. COFFIN-I wrote this up because I knew I was going to get a little upset about this thing. let
me read this. I'm against any expansion of the Club. Club members have tried hard to police the
activity, but short of a full time live in guard it can't be done. The activity has picked up
tremendously in the last few years, to a point where I'd like to see it cut back, not expanded. The
Queensbury Ordinance being considered or passed, I'm not sure how that is, because of motorcyc1es,
and in Argyle it's because of stock cars is almost a joke, compared to weekends at the Club. It's
become a commercial operation with many out of town state people camping on the grounds, even used
by the National Guard, which you you mentioned. You want to wake up at six in the morning to machine
gun fire some time. I ask that the Board consider whether they would like this kind of invasion into
their homes on the weekends. If the Board feels it must anow this expansion, I ask they consider
limitations to the place, such as only Queensbury residents members, limit the number of weekends open
to the public, limit the number of shooters at one time, and put certain hour restrictions that wi11
be enforced by the Warren County Sheriff's patrol and shooting. A last consideration would be parking.
I know that the place is fun now. They have overnight campers there on the weekends. I just don't
see how they can possibly do it. I've tried to be a good neighbor with him. I've gone down and brushed
the place for him a few times, several years ago. Up to a point. up untiJ about seven or eight years
ago, he could probably answer that better than I could, but the Club has expanded tremendously,
tremendously, and it has got to the point where Jiving next to them is a pain in the neck. I hear
people complaining about motorcyc1es running behind their house, and I laugh. You want to have 50
guns go off.
16
MR. TURNER-I know. How long have you lived there, Mr. Coffin?
MR. COFFIN-Fourteen years.
MR. TURNER-Fourteen years.
MR. FONTAINE-If I could respond to one, he's talking about six o'clock in the morning. We do have
a restriction up there, there win be no firing before nine a.m., and we have tried, any involvement
I have had with it has been strictly adhered to, no firing before nine a.m.
MR. COFFIN-I agree with him that they have tried hard. I brought that up in the beginning. They have
tried hard. The Club's a good organization, it's just that they've gotten so big now that living next
to them is a pain in the neck, and there is a lot of other people in the area, that I knew they were
talking about it, and they just couldn't make it tonight. So, I kind of got elected to come, but this
is, I'm not trying to say that I want .to c10se this place down, because I think it's a necessity in
the Town, but it shouldn't be open to Vermont, Pennsylvania, wherever, every weekend. I think it's
gotten out of hand, and I think a 40 by 80 building is just going to enlarge on that.
MR. TURNER-How much revenue is really generated from the outsiders?
MR. FONTAINE-Most of it.
MR. TURNER-Most of it. So, without the income, then you'd be.
MR. FONTAINE-At the present time, we have about 140 members, and the backbone of the Club right now
is the bench rest shooters. Between the bench rest shoot, and a gun show, which we put on once a year
down at the rec ha11, if we didn't have those two activities, the club would have to almost cease to
exist. This particular building win not add to any of the noise. Actuany, this bui1ding will be
bringing some activity indoors which is now done outdoors, that is, as far as the cleaning and loading
and talking. Shooting will continue outdoors, of course.
MR. TURNER-Yes. This is just a small bore, bench shooting small bore?
MR. FONTAINE-No. These are large bore, up to 308. Indoors, I don't visuaJize, at the present time,
any indoor shooting, other than archery.
MR. TURNER~Okay.
MR. FONTAINE-Covering a little bit of what the gentleman is talking about on weekends, we have, starting
the first Sunday in January, we shoot every other Sunday. outdoors, unti1 about, wen, eight matches,
which brings us about into the middle of Apri1. Our last match, this year, was April 26th. Then we
have two shoots during the summer. A week ago Saturday and Sunday, which was the sixth and seventh,
I beJieve, we had a two day shoot there. We have another two day shoot scheduled July 25th and 26th,
somewhere in that weekend, whatever that Saturday and Sunday fans, and that is it for the rest of
the season, as far as our outdoor bench rest shoots go. We do have, there are some pistol shooting
activity, outdoor pistol shooting activity on the range. Off the top of my head, I can't tell you
exactly how many. Most every Wednesday you have a sman group up there doing some pistol shooting.
They start around four o'clock in the afternoon and they do shoots, we 11 , they usuany don't start
until the snow is off the ground, and they will shoot during the good weather.
MR. TURNER-How available is the range to the members of the Club? Can they go there any time? Can
they bring guests?
MR. FONTAINE-They have a key to the gate. The property has a locked gate. Any member can go up there,
and as I say, we try to strictly adhere. We have signs. There will be no firing before nine a.m.
Anyone that goes up there, during the day, on their own can fire. I've been there 20 years, and this
is the way it's been the 20 years I've been there. If you want to go in any time after nine o'c1ock
and fire, at your convenience.
MRS. EGGLESTON-How about the National Guard who are not members?
MR. FONTAINE-The property is made available, if the National Guard needed it, for training purposes.
MRS. EGGLESTON-But are you restrictive in your hours?
MR. FONTAINE-At nine o'clock.
MR. COFFIN-They were the ones that started at six.
MR. TURNER-You said they're shooting machine guns? What caliber, 30's?
17
MR. COFFIN-I have no idea. When they start shooting them, when you've got 50 people Jined up in a
row and they're all shooting machine guns, I wouldn't know whether it was a 50 caliber or a 30 caliber.
MR. TURNER-Well, I don't think they could shoot them there.
MR. COFFIN-You don't think they could shoot them there?
MR. TURNER-Well, that's a pretty big weapon.
MR. FONTAINE-I have not been there when they've been shooting. I would guess that they are shooting
their M-16's, which have selective fire.
MR. TURNER-Yes. They can shoot at semi or full automatic.
MR. FONTAINE-And I don't think, now I've put in over 30 years with the National Guard mYseH, not in
the Glens Fa11s unit, but any training we had, we never had any training fu11 automatic fire. I won't
say there was never any full automatic fire, but it was not as part of training. It would be someone's
acting on their own, who was playing around with, ripping off, there would not be any full automatic
fire as part of their training.
MR. TURNER-How much time do they spend there? How much access do they have to the facility.
MR. FONTAINE-I don't know if they were there this past year. I believe that they have been required
to go down to Guilderland. The National Guard, New York National Guard, has a range in Guilderland,
and I believe they're training down there. The Seabee's used to use it for training, and they have
not been up there this past year.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Has it been that long since, or is this something you've heard recently, at six in the
morning?
MR. COFFIN-This was last year, but it's on a yearly basis, with the National Guard a couple of weekends
a year. The black powder, I know those have to be black powder guns that go off up there on those
shoots. They're cannons. I know a 308 from one of those muzzle loaders. I have no problem with them,
the Club, none whatsoever. It's the shoots that they have that are just deafening. Sitting in my
house, my house has got to be 1,000 feet away, and I hear these people complain about a motorcycle
going running behind their house. You can't even hear the television when they get going.
MR. TURNER-I know.
MR. COFFIN-It never used to be this way. They have expanded.
MR. FONTAINE-We've had bench rest matches up there for 20 years, that I have been involved in it.
MR. COFFIN-That isn't the point. The point is that there used to be maybe 50 people going. Now there's
200 people going.
MR. FONTAINE-No. A big shoot up there involves, the biggest shoot we've had up there in the past 10,
well, 20 years, two years ago we had one where we had about 40 shooters, and I'm going to say the most
people we ever have had up on the line at one time is about 3~.
MR. TURNER-That's quite a few.
MR. CARVIN-How long has the Club been in existence there?
MR. FONTAINE-I drafted a figure of 1948. We bought that property in 1956.
MR. CARVIN-So, roughly, 40, 45 years, somewhere in there.
MR. COFFIN-I'm going to stick up for him, here. '48 Webster owned the property and started a Club,
then Declub bought it from him.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. We11, the other thing, I think that we are slowly drifting away from the issue of
the building, but I think if this becomes a persistent problem, have you looked into sound retaining
walls, in other words, like they put along highways and things like that?
MR. FONTAINE-Greenery is your best, probably, and we have made it a point to leave as much up on the
sides as we can.
MR. CARVIN-Yes, well, again, I'm just addressing that as a suggestion.
MR. COFFIN-I think mY point is that this isn't a Club any longer. It's a commercial operation. If
you have two or three big shoots a year to pay your taxes and your upkeep and plus your membership
fee. I can understand that in a nonprofit organization. You've got to pay those expenses, but when
they have 15, 20, 25 shoots a year, somebody's making some money some place.
18
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MR. FONTAINE-Well, I'd be glad to tell you how much we make a year. On the bench rest shoots we clear
less than $5,000 a year.
MR. CARVIN-Again, I think that your neighbor's concern about the sound, I think that you should bring
it back to your Club and address it. Maybe you can do something, taller bushes or sound walls.
MR. FONTAINE-We want to be good neighbors.
MR. CARVIN-Because I sort of look at this in the same vein as a person, and again, I'm not being
critica1. I appreciate your position. Sort of like buying a house on a golf course. In other words,
you may like the scenery, but every now and then a golf ball comes bouncing off your roof, and it just
kind of goes with the territory, if there's a firing range in the area. So, I think we should get
back to the building.
MR. COFFIN-I don't want to come across as I'm against the Club. That's why I read the statement, to
make sure that I didn't give the people, the people at the Club have tried to poJice this. I know
they have. I've seen them up there doing it. I've talked to them, and I know that they're trying
to police that, but it's the shoots that they're having have changed this from a Club to a commercial
operation. Five thousand a year, that's more than I can make out of my vegetable stand.
MR. CARVIN-Okay, but by the building of the building, I guess the question then becomes, if the building
is built, do you intend on expanding the number of shoots that you're going to have?
MR. FONTAINE-No. We are at about all that we can handle right now. It's a strain on the volunteer
labor that puts on the shoots. There are some of us that work every shoot. So, we try to spread it
out, and we just don't have that many workers in a Club.
MR. CARVIN-Right. So, I guess what I'm saying is that the building may not be a direct relation to
increased activity?
MR. FONTAINE-That building would have no effect on the outdoor shooting, the number of shoots or the
number of peopìe shooting.
MR. COFFIN-He brought up the fact that they're hoping to get more members with this additional building,
and that kind of counteracts what he just said, and another thing is, nobody said, they haven't said
there will definitely be no indoor range. I get a peaceful weekend when it rains. Even when they've
got that 1 ittle roof over there, there's few around, and by saying a few, if there's 10 or 15 people
up there, it doesn't bother you. I mean, after I've Jived there 14 years, you get used to it. I'm
not trying to come here and say I'm a habitual complainer of this thing, but when you get, he's saying
30 people, how many rounds do they shoot each?
MR. FONTAINE-A minimum of six or seven on up to possibly ten, each time they go up to the range, each
time they go up to the line, and they will shoot six cartons a day. So, normally when I go to a match,
I will shoot anywhere from 40 to 45 rounds.
MR. COFFIN-And there's 30 people. So, that kind of gives .lQ.!!. an idea of what's happening with these
things. A couple, three times a year to pay the taxes and the upkeep on the thing I can understand.
It's costly to buiJd a 40 by 80 building, and to upkeep a 40 by 80 building. I think allowing this
is just going to allow this Club to grow. It has to grow, to pay for the expenses. As far as this
guy here coming up, he could come up every night and shoot and it wouldn't be a problem, and five or
six of his neighbors come up every night and shoot. It's when they have these huge shoot, and I kind
of, the figures there that he gave, I think are a 1ittle small, unless they have a huge entourage that
comes with them, because I've seen as many as 40 tents and campers there.
MR. TURNER-I know. I have too.
MR. FONTAINE-One quick response. I said we were looking for more members. What I'm looking,
at the present time, is talking about shooting archery in this building. The archers aren't
to make much noise, but we have got about all that we can pick up, locaìly, as far as shooters.
what we need is somebody in a different field, and if we can pick up a bunch of archers, we can
up 10 or 15 more members, due to the fact that we have a building adaptable to archery shooting.
sure it's not going to contribute to the noise problem.
right
going
Now,
pick
I'm
MR. CARVIN-Do you have an outdoor archery range, at this point?
MR. FONTAINE-Not at the present time.
courses up there once or twice a year.
They do set up targets and they do have archery certification
Dick Sage puts on an archery course.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Well, normally, it's not a c1ub's goal to make money. It's for entertainment. So,
what is your reasoning that you have to make, improve your facilities, get more members, and make more
money?
19
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MR. FONTAINE-Wen, it's to offer more to the pubJic. We have facilities there now that are adequate
for anything in the foreseeable future, as far as outdoor activities, other than the possibility.
We have 20 acres, most of it wooded, down the road, if this archery takes off indoors, they would want
to shoot outdoors. We can have a course set up, through the woods, where they go out and simulate
hunting conditions out in the woods, which again, nobody would know they were there, as far as noise.
MRS. EGGLESTON-So, his point is wen taken, that maybe you're taking what is a Club and turning it
into an enterprise to make money.
MR. FONTAINE-Not rea11y. We're trying to improve the property. You were up there, you were probably
familiar with the property 20, 25 years ago. It was basica11y a brush lot, and as you can see from
the pictures, we've done quite a project cleaning it up, trying to beautify it, and if we can, in a
year or so, tear the old building down and incorporate this building we're asking for and the new club
house. It's going to improve the looks of the property up there considerably. As far as, he mentioned
that he has seen 30 or 40 campers there. I don't think we have ever had more than 10, possibly 12
campers on the lot at any given time. Most of the people stay in motels, or they drive in from nearby,
Vermont. Some people drive back and forth to lennox, Mass. They' n drive home at night and come back
the next day. In that neighborhood, Hoosick Falls, we have quite a few shooters from that area, lake
Placid. People come down from up there. They usuany go home overnight or stay at a mote1. They
don't usua11y come down with their camper. We don't usua11Y get more than 10, at the most, 10 campers
at any time.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Is the Dunham's Bay Fish and Game Club privately owned, with a membership, or is it
owned by the members?
MR. FONTAINE-We11, it is an incorporated membership owned corporation. There are, as I say, about
140 members, give or take a few. We are incorporated. The property is owned by Dunham's Bay Fish
and Game Club, Incorporated.
MR. COFFIN-Is that a not for profit organization?
MR. FONTAINE-Yes, I believe so. Whether it's intended for that or not, I don't know.
MR. COFFIN-I kind of snickered when he said Seabees because mY son's a Seabee and they did quite a
bit of the work out there, in trade for, which didn't cost them anything. What I'm saying is, they're
making a lot more money then they have to run this club, if they're going to build a 40 by 80 building.
If they're going to have archery, who cares? I don't care if there's going to be archery, but next
week he's going to build another building, and that's going to be a shooting range. I don't know that,
and he didn't give us a definite no on the thing. Parking, you were talking earlier about parking.
They don't have enough parking up there now. I mean, they're welcome to use my p1ace if they want
to park a few cars down there. I'm not arguing that. It's just that I don't want the thing expanded
any more, and I think that if this noise ordinance that they're talking about in Queensbury goes through,
that the place is going to be out of business anyway.
MR. SICARD-Mr. Fontaine, is there any reason that you couldn't set up a limited membership for shooters,
and then if you wanted to expand to archery, that it wouldn't apply? I mean, as far as it's concerned,
it's like 150 people. This would limit it, and the other question I might have is, I'm a little familiar
with rifle ranges, having spent a little time in the service in one, and it was totally enclosed, totally
enc1osed. They were shooting out of ports at 100 and, 200 BAR range and so forth, and it was noisy.
However, they did it, and they did it in Rhode Island, where they had a lot of snow, and it was enclosed,
and I swear, you get out away from that 2, 300 yards, you couldn't hear anything. You couldn't hear
anything after you got out anyway, but the noise from the enc10sed shooting is very, very Jimited,
and possibly they could put in a wooden buffer, I think Mr. Carvin mentioned this, outside of the range,
but I think to enclose the range is the ideal situation as far as noise is concerned, for this gentleman,
because he just wouldn't hear it. Do you know of any other ranges in the area that are enclosed?
MR. FONTAINE-No, I do not. At the present time, there's only two other active bench rest ranges in
the State of New York.
MR. SICARD-But it doesn't have to be in the State of New York. It could be in the State of Vermont
or some other place where there's an enclosed range.
MR. FONTAINE-There are none in the State of Vermont, New Hampshire, Connecticut, Massachusetts, none
in Rhode Island, that I'm aware of. There are two in the State of Maine that conduct bench rest matches.
The State of Maine, Dunham's Bay, Syracuse, painted post are the only ones in New York State.
MR. SICARD-You still could use a bench rest, if it was enclosed.
MR. FONTAINE-You asked about limiting. You're asking a question I can't answer.
20
MRS. EGGLESTON-Mr. Fontaine, are you saying that without expansion, you're not able to pay taxes?
You're not able to do the upkeep with the membership as it now exists? It seems like it's very busy,
by your own admission. Every weekend you have something going, and there seems to be a pretty busy
place. With all of that, are you able to maintain taxes and insurances, and what is your goal to build
bigger? What is the object to make more money?
MR. FONTAINE-Our object has been to try to upgrade the facilities that we have, to get a club house
which is going to be a lot better than what we have right now. The club house that we have right now
is an old farmhouse, which was probably near abandoned 30, 40 years ago, and they're worrying about
it faning down. They say it can't fa11 down, there are too many jack bolts in the cenar holding
it up, but our object is to, .!!!l. object is to see, within a year or so, that building torn down, and
a much more attractive building there as a club house, and from this point on, it's just to service
the members, the different activities that go with a fish and game club, meetings. We send youngsters
to summer camp, part of our income goes towards that. Community service is a fair part of our outlet.
MR. CARR-I think we're getting way off the beaten track, and I think that the point is wen taken.
You're neighbors of one another and things have to be worked out. The fact of the matter is, they
have more than enough room to place this building, within the setbacks, okay. The question just becomes,
is it more convenient for them to shape it this way than turn it side ways and lose some camping spaces?
I mean, it really is coming down to that. We can't te11 him he can't build his building. They've
got 20 acres there. I mean, he can put a building in there.
MR. COFFIN-That was my point about the commercial operation. The size of this thing, it's become a
commercial operation, which makes it nonconforming use, and then that's an entirely different ba11
game.
MR. CARR-We11, that's a good argument. It's an interesting argument, but it's not one that we can
adopt, here, because the property is owned by a not for profit organization. It will be used.
MR. COFFIN-I kind of doubt that. That's why I asked him. To my knowledge, they've never been a not
for profit organization. I've had some familiarity with that, and that's a tough road to hoe, a not
for profit organization.
MR. FONTAINE-There is no money being divided up among the members.
MR. COFFIN-That isn't how it works, though. The IRS, when they determine a not for profit, is tough.
MR. CARR-Well, you're talking about a tax exempt organization.
MR. COFFIN-No, no, not for profit organization. I was the president of Yankee Running Court Horse,
Association, and we went for not for profit. It took us two years to get it.
MR. CARR-To get your tax exemption.
MR. COFFIN-No, to get not for profit. Tax exemption's easy. That takes you just minutes, but we wanted
a not for profit status, and that's the tough part.
MR. CARR-Well, I'm not going to get into it. I would respectfully disagree, but.
MR. COFFIN-The commercial operation versus the club. That's the whole point. If it is a commercial
operation, this variance for the 80 foot setback doesn't matter. If this is what's determined, I don't
care about an 80 foot setback. I don't think anybody does, it's a 20 foot difference.
MR. FONTAINE-We have, you're talking about the profit we are making, it has taken us over 10 years
to raise money enough to see where we can build this building that we're talking about right now, which
I have been out and begged and pleaded with people for help building it, give us a break here, give
us a break there, and we are talking about a $15,000 building out of our funds. It's going to take
us down to practically nothing. We don't make much over expenses in the course of a year. You mentioned
re-orienting the building. I mentioned that 80 feet is about minimum that we can 1ive with. If we
did not have a setback, the only direction we could reany go, practically, would be due east, which
would put one end of the building about 15 to 20 feet in front of the firing Jine. It's not a really
serious thing, but I don't like to do it.
MR. CARR-Well, you don't want to do that unless you give up some of the camping space.
MR. FONTAINE-Wen, the camping space, now where we're talking about putting the building, on that
picture, there is a hedgerow there that is not usable to us. We can clear out the brush and a couple
of trees in that hedgerow, put the building there. We don't sacrifice anything, or very, very little,
maybe 10 feet or so out of our campground, and the rest of it comes out of that hedgerow. It's making
the best use of non-usable space, as far as I'm concerned.
MR. TURNER-Okay. Thank you.
21
DOROTHY BURNHAM
MRS. BURNHAM-Dorothy Burnham, Boulderwood Drive. I'm sympathetic with what you're trying to do. I
think the building would be a great improvement, but with 20 acres, I don't see why it is necessary
to ask for a variance for the established setbacks. Since they want to bui1d this building for their
own convenience, and believe me, I know absolutely nothing about firing ranges or anything else, driving
by, it looks as if it wouldn't be a big problem to move those, expand whatever they are.
MR. FONTAINE-Firing lines.
MRS. BURNHAM-Back to accommodate the bui1ding. That's point one. The second point is, I'm quite
concerned in hearing that this is a semi commercial operation. I had assumed it was strictly a social
club, and I'm a little disturbed to hear about commercial activity there, and how that could be separated
from the social club as such.
MR. FONTAINE-First of a11, you mentioned we have 20 acres. We do. About 18 acres of that is in front
of the firing lines. We can't do anything in front of the firing Jines. Anything we do has got to
be done between the firing line and the road. We have very, very limited space there, as you can see
from that picture, a goodly part of it is parking lot and camping lot. We have very little space that
we can use, other than that.
MR. CARR-The camping is a convenience to the people who are coming into the neighborhood. That's not
an absolute necessity. I mean, it's a convenience. I mean, there are campgrounds who make their living
at being a campground.
MR. FONTAINE-Point Two, if we put that building over on that campground, and we tried to incorporate
a new club house, with kitchen facilities, toilet faci1ities, and what have you, a long with this
building, we would have to put in a new septic field. A new septic field, we have had an estimate
on that. We looked into this out in that campground, if you want to can it that. There were some
people that said, that is the best place to put it, but we have an estimate of $15 to $20,000. Because
of the water table up there, we have to build about that high above the existing grade. Now, you can
see in that picture, along side the south side of the c1ub house is nice greenery. That is a built
up, about four feet high above grade to comply with, as I be1ieve, about 15 years ago, a directive
from the Town of Queensbury that we had to modify our septic systems. I don't know what that cost
us at that time, but we did look into the cost of a new septic system, and it was $15 to $20,000.
It has taken us 10 years to raise that amount of money, $15,000, to put up this building that we're
talking about. If we had to put in a new septic field, we would be right out of it.
MR. CARR-Mr. Fontaine, what about the issue of moving the firing range up 30 feet?
MR. FONTAINE-That would not rea11y be a, there's a lot of money gone into putting that there. There
is 200 or 250 feet of, I think, 14 feet wide cement under that overhead cover, and benches are put
there to shoot from. It would not be practical. It just would not be practical.
MR. TURNER-Okay. Any further questions? None? Anyone else wish to be heard?
PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED
MR. TURNER-Do you want to discuss it?
MR. CARR-Well, it seems they've got 20 acres. I'm really not convinced that they can't put the building.
I mean, if you just turn it 90 degrees, you've got your setback.
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. CARVIN-Or move it back 20 feet and have a little overlap on the firing range.
MR. CARR-It goes 40 feet more north. It doesn't go and encroach on the firing range at a11, because,
I mean, it's right up to the firing range now.
MR. TURNER-Just move it north.
MR. CARVIN-As far as tying in to the septic system, I think that that's just an extra few feet of pipe,
right?
MR. TURNER-That's all it is. Right.
MR. CARVIN-So, I don't think they really would have a problem utilizing that septic system, if they
moved the building back, or like Bruce suggests, turns it.
MR. CARR-Then they wouldn't need a variance.
22
MR. CARVIN-Then they wouldn't need a variance.
MR. TURNER-Would you consider turning that building or not? If not, we're going to vote on it.
MR. FONTAINE-for myself, I can say that I would really, at a Club meeting I would vote against it.
I would say, we would not foresee. I'm speaking for myself. I've only got one vote, but that would
be my recommendation, that we would not.
MR. TURNER-let me ask you this. When the Club held the meeting to decide to build this bui1ding, how
many voted in favor, how many voted against?
MR. FONTAINE-The meeting, we had a little over 30 people at the meeting, and it was unanimous to proceed
with it.
MR. TURNER-To proceed with it in that location?
MR. FONTAINE-Yes.
MRS. EGGLESTON-The only thing, Bruce, is I think a new bui1ding would be more attractive. It does
need sprucing up there, or whatever, that whole area, anything they do to improve it is going to be
a benefit to the.
MR. FONTAINE-The existing club house is only 66 feet back from the road. If we were to tear that down,
we would request a variance to move that back to the 80 foot line.
MR. CARVIN-You mean the proposed building in the future?
MR. TURNER-Yes, to tie it into the other building.
MR. FONTAINE-The other option has been that they rebuild on the existing club house, which they would
not need a variance to build on the existing footprint, as they call it.
MR. CARR-But that doesn't give you your archery range.
MR. TURNER-That doesn't give you archery.
MRS. EGGLESTON-No.
MR. FONTAINE-I would object to that. I would rather see this 80 foot variance and put up a much nicer
bui1ding.
MRS. EGGLESTON-My point was, I think they've demonstrated that it would cost quite a bit to put it
where the camping is, put it any place where they'd have to put in a new, he says they had an estimate
done on the septic system. I mean, it would cost more than the building.
MR. CARR-No, but we're talking about moving it around. I mean, I'm talking about literally just spinning
it right where it is.
MRS. EGGLESTON-But he said that it would be not within the firing line, but something that he wouldn't
be comfortable with, because of it's proximity to the firing Jine. So, show me what you mean, that
they could move it.
MR. CARR-It's right up to the firing line now. This is 40 feet, this is one half, because it's 40
by 80. So, just go 40 by 80 right there. You can sti11 tie it in right to the septic, right where
you can tie it in now, and it's not in front of the firing line, and it's the 100 feet, because you
need 20 feet here, and you're getting 40 feet.
MRS. EGGLESTON-But would he still have 200 feet from here?
MR. CARR-No, you'd have 160 feet. So, you're still 60 feet from there.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Does he understand that conception of yours? Could you come and look at this, just
look at this and give your response to it?
MR. FONTAINE-let me make one more observation, if we do that, you are painting yourseH into a corner,
in a sense, if there was ever an application to make an indoor rifle range, or a pistol range, then
you are shooting para11el to the road. If we were to put a range in there, under our existing plan,
we would be firing in a direction where we own 1500 feet, and heaven forbid that there would be any
kind of accident, but rather than firing parallel to the road, you would be firing away from the road,
oriented the way we have it.
23
MR. CARR-I thought there was no plans or even thought in the picture.
MR. FONTAINE-I'm getting too old to say it's never going to happen. What would happen down the road,
I have no idea, but I don't want to paint myself into a corner and say we're going to do it this way,
and then we have got.
MR. CARVIN-Wen, eventually you're going to put another l on this anyway. So, even under Bruce's
recommendation, then your other building comes in here.
MR. FONTAINE-Well, it would be merely an extension of the bui1ding. We wouldn't have an l, we'd just
have a longer building.
MR. CARVIN-We11, that's what I'm saying. If we set it up this way, then you pick up your other 40
feet.
MR. FONTAINE-No, we couldn't. If we could, we'd do that right now. That, we'd have to have a variance
for the 80 feet, if we put that l there. Then you would have that 80 foot building, which is what
we're asking for right now.
MR. CARR-I guess my other problem is, if this is a 20 foot by 160 foot firing line slab, I mean, I've
been associated with a hunting camp, they have work weekends, and it's amazing what they can get done
when they get the memberships up there, and I just don't see why you can't move this firing line.
MR. FONTAINE-That would be a horrible jOb.
MR. CARVIN-I think that would be a major job.
MR. TURNER-That's a major job.
MR. CARR-Is it?
MR. FONTAINE-It would be a massive, massive project.
MR. TURNER-I don't see anything wrong with it right where it is, because like he says, if they put
an indoor firing range in there, they've got to fire towards the woods, towards the back property line.
They can't fire the other way, because they're going to be shooting right at the house down the road.
MR. FONTAINE-We'd be shooting parallel to the road.
MR. TURNER- Yes.
MR. FONTAINE-As I say, I don't want to paint ourselves into a corner, where you could never modify
this if you wanted to.
MR. TURNER-It's really minimal relief, because your back farther than the existing building.
MRS. EGGLESTON-See, I agree with Ted. I think the request is reasonable. The complex is there.
Nothing's going to stop the use.
MR. TURNER-The high water table is there. It's always been there, and it's wet as the devil in there.
MRS. EGGLESTON-it isn't like what they're going to do is going to do more for the shooting, which is
the neighbor's complaint of the noise, because this is going to be for archery, with no plans for
shooting within this bui1ding that we're doing now. If you wanted to do something more, then you'd
have to come back again.
MR. COFFIN-No, he wouldn't. The building would be there. He wouldn't have to come back again. My
argument isn't with the building. I don't think anybody listened. This is a commercial operation
in a nonconforming area. This 80 foot building has nothing to do with it.
MR. TURNER-That's fine, and I'd argue the point with you, too, that, yes, it's a commercial operation
but the taxes have gone up, everything has gone up. So, they've got to realize enough return on that
property so that they can pay those taxes and the needs that they have to have for that piece of property
to support it.
MRS. BURNHAM- Then they could up their membership fees. I have to work to pay for my taxes.
MR. FONTAINE-When I went up there, 20 years ago, the membership was $2 a year. At the present time,
we're paying $35 a year, and that was because of what we are trying to build. From $2 to $35 is
appreciable, and we've lost a lot of members because of that. A lot of people were tickled to death
to have to pay $2 to have a place to go and site on their hunting rifJes. They don't want to pay $35
for the same privi1ege. It has cost us a lot of members and put more on the shoulders of the active
membe rs .
24
MRS. CRAYFORD-If you were going to look at this as a commercial operation, then we'd be coming in for
a use variance.
MR. TURNER-A use variance. Yes.
MR. FONTAINE-We don't plan on anything different than what we're doing right now, what we've been doing
for the past 20 years.
MR. TURNER-Okay. We've talked about it long enough. lets move it.
MOTION TO APPROVE AREA. VARIANCE NO. 55-1992 DUNHAM'S BAY FISH & GAtE CUJB, Introduced by Joyce
Eggleston, who moved for its adoption, seconded by Theodore Turner:
This would grant relief to the applicant of 20 feet from the front yard setback, and the current building
is 66 feet from the front yard setback, and the plans are to either take that bui1ding down or move
it back, in compJiance with the new bui1ding, which would be 80 feet from the front yard line. The
practical difficulty is in the fact that it would be extremely expensive to move the firing range,
and the applicant has demonstrated that, were they to put it in other areas, a new septic system would
actually cost more than the building. I don't believe it would be detrimental to the neighborhood
because the Club exists. Nothing is changing except enhancing the appearance of the property by the
construction of the new building. There'd be no adverse effect on faci1ities, and I beJieve it's a
reasonable request by the applicant.
Duly adopted this 17th day of June, 1992, by the following vote:
AYES: Mrs. Paling, Mr. Sicard, Mr. Carvin, Mrs. Eggleston, Mr. Turner
NOES: Mr. Carr
MR. TURNER-But I think you've got a real problem with your neighbors, and I think you've got to work
with them. (9:45 p.m.)
MR. TURNER-The app1ication for Area Variance No. 56-1992 leo C. Jr. & Asta G. Orsini has been withdrawn
by the applicant. So, we'll proceed to No. 57-1992.
AREA VARIANCE NO. 57-1992 TYPE II .-5 JOANN E. MTTISON OWNER: SAtE AS ABOVE CORNER OF CENTRAL
AVENUE AND WISCONSIN AVENUE FOR PIACEtENT OF A fl)BILE HOlE ON THE VACANT lOT, 20 FT. FROM THE FRONT
PROPERTY LINE IN LIEU OF TIE RE(JIIRED 30 FT. TAX MP NO. 127-1-9 LOT SIZE: 90 FT. BY 100 FT. SECTION
179-18
JOANN MATTISON, PRESENT (9:45 p.m.)
STAFF INPUT
Notes from Patricia Crayford, Zoning Administrator, Area Variance No. 57-1992, Joann E. Mattison, June
17, 1992, Meeting Date: June 17, 1992 "Joann Mattison is proposing to place a 70 ft. by 14 ft. mobile
home on a 90 ft. by 100 ft. corner lot, therefore, the required setbacks from both streets is 30 ft.
Mrs. Mattison is requesting a 10 ft. variance to locate the mobile home 20 ft. from Wisconsin Avenue."
MR. TURNER-It's a real sma11 lot on the corner, and she can't buy anything else. Everything else is
taken up.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Well, that's in the Mobile Home zone.
MR. TURNER-Yes. It's overlay.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Overlay district, anyway.
MR. TURNER-There's no problem.
MR. CARR-I mean, it's not like we can get them that much smaller.
MRS. EGGLESTON-What year will the mobile home be?
MRS. MATTISON-I believe it will be a new one, and I own the land right next to it. It's a corner lot.
There's three there, and I own these three.
MR. TURNER-A11 right. If we have no questions, I'll open the public hearing.
PUBLIC HEARING OPENED
NO CO_NT
25
PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED
CORRESPONDENCE
MRS. EGGlESTON-A note from Bob Northgard. He telephoned. He is opposed to the variance. Area too
congested. The setback should be maintained. don't know where he does live, in proximity to this.
MR. TURNER-He doesn't live there. He's got a duplex, I think, he just built, or something, in that
area.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Over on Corinth Road. Didn't we just separate two properties over on the corner?
MRS. CRAYFORD-Right. He buys and leases in that district.
MR. TURNER-That's right.
MRS. MATTISON-He has three developments across the road.
MR. TURNER-Is that his house across Wisconsin?
MRS. MATTISON-The big blue house that he has for rent.
MR. TURNER-Okay. A motion's in order.
MOTION TO APPROVE AREA VARIANCE NO. 57-1992 JOANN E. MftTTISON, Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved
for its adoption, seconded by Joyce Eggleston:
The practical difficulty is the size of the lot, 9,000 square feet. The size of the trailer, which
is proposed to be a brand new one, is 14 by 70 feet, with septic tank and a wel1. It doesn't leave
much room to rea11y have a yard. So, I would grant the relief of 10 feet from the 30 foot requirement
on Central Avenue. It's a minimum relief for the reasonable use of the land. It won't be detrimental
to the other properties in the district, since there are many mobile homes in that district. It won't
have any effect on public facilities and services.
Duly adopted this 17th day of June, 1992, by the following vote:
AYES: Mr. Sicard, Mr. Carr, Mr. Carvin, Mrs. Eggleston, Mrs. Paling, Mr. Turner
NOES: NONE (9:25 p.m.)
(END OF FIRST DISK)
26
AREA VARIANCE NO. 58-1992 TYPE: UNLISTED SFR-JA EDWARD & MRY CARDINALE OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE
SOUTHWESTERLY SIDE OF PEGGY ANN ROAD, NORlHWESTERLY OF INTERSECTION OF WINTERGREEN ROAD FOR A 3 LOT
SUBDIVISION FOR SINGLE FAMILY IIŒLLlNGS. VARIANCE REQUIRED FOR LESS THAN DOUBLE THE LOT WlOlH. TAX
ÞMP NO. 119-6-34 LOT SIZE: 7.9 ACRES SECTION 179-30
ANDREW MCCORMACK, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT (9:25 p.m.)
STAFF INPUT
Notes from Patricia Crayford, Zoning Administrator, Area Variance No. 58-1992, Edward & Mary Cardinale,
June 17, 1992, Meeting Date: June 17, 1992 "Edward and Mary Cardinale are requesting a variance from
Section 179-30 lots abutting collector or arterial roads that require double lot width. The Temporary
Advisory Committee working on the Zoning Ordinance has recommended that this double the lot width
requirement be waived if the property owners agree to combine driveways. This would accompJish the
reason for adopting this Section of the Zoning Ordinance and would also create a safer traffic flow.
As you will note on the site plan, lots 1, 2, and 3 have one common drive exiting onto Peggy Ann Road
resulting in one drive that would be permitted if only one lot was developed. This application requires
SEQRA approval."
MR. MCCORMACK-For your record, I'm Andrew McCormack. I work for the survey firm of Coulter and
McCormack, representing the Cardinales in this application. The Cardinales are here also. I'd like
to make one correction in the supporting data, Paragraph Seven, Driveway~, instead of .f,., will be
constructed and maintained. In reviewing this map, I guess we're wondering whether a variance is needed
at al1. The reason I say that is, the lot frontage required is 40 feet is one thing. The lot width
the mean distance between the side 1ines and the lot, is something else. As I look at the map, lot
1, if it's width is defined as that which runs along the Road A, the average width between the side
lines is over 300 feet. In the case of lot 2, if you look at width, width being the east to west
distance between the side lines, from there we have 150 feet. To meet the strict definition of the
Ordinances, that lot would have to be double in width to meet that particular criteria.
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. MCCORMACK-In any event, the roadway, for further explanation of what's on the map, we show Driveway
Band C, in order to tie in with our recitation of those items spe11ed out in the Ordinance, in that,
where they talk about 40 feet of frontage, where it says, such frontage shall provide actual physical
access to the road. So, it could be that criteria by having driveways in the location of Band C,
as you see them. So, we could meet that criteria, also, but, again, as mentioned at the end of my
supporting data, if we were to, Number One, provide the 40 feet, but provide the physical access over
Road A, which would be a deeded right-of-way to lot$ 1 and 2, then I think we've met the intent of
the Ordinance requiring double the lot width. It appears to me not a tota11y clear cut aspect of
the Ordinance, the frontage or lot width.
MR. TURNER-Yes. You've kind of met the practicality of it. Wen, we've always relied on the fact
that the frontage would be on the front, even though I understand what you're saying, the width between
the lot lines, the side line, but we've always gone with the theory that what was adopted was the fact
that it was the frontage on the road.
MR. CARR-Didn't we just deny two people two weeks ago, on this very issue?
MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes.
MR. CARVIN-This is the issue.
MR. CARR-And I think, I mean, isn't the point here that it's a glitch that's being addressed by the
body that was elected to make the legislative decisions, and we are not supposed to make the legislative
decisions on this, and I think, unfortunately for the app1icants, because I know this is a real hassle
for them, but until the Temporary Committee gets the public hearings going, so the public can decide
what they want to be done in these situations, I don't know if we're in a position to be giving out
variances, because if that was the case, then I would recommend that those people that were here two
weeks ago come back and get a variance before the public hearings are closed.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes, and all the others before that.
MRS. CRAYFORD-May I comment? This particular application is offering one access onto Peggy Ann Road.
Whether it's one lot or three lots, it's still just one access.
MRS. EGGLESTON-So was the last guy. He was going to only have, the existing driveway wasn't going
to have another driveway.
MRS. CRAYFORD-I know that.
MRS. EGGLESTON-What's your point, then?
27
MRS. CRAYFORD-The point is, as I said in my notes, the reason for double the lot width was to prevent
many accesses onto a road, and this is what this is doing.
MR. CARR-But the problem is that since enacting of that law, back in October of '88, this Board has
consistently denied these variances to countless number of people who have asked for it, because there
has been a problem. We've asked people to go to the Town Board and finany the Town Board is going
to address the issue, and I have a problem with trying to undermine their authority when they are
actuany going to look at this problem and make a permanent solution for everybody's benefit, giving
out variances.
MRS. CRAYFORD-I'm just saying, in this instance, if he bui1t one house here, he would have one drive
onto Peggy Ann Road, one driveway onto Peggy Ann Road. He's bui1ding three houses, and he'11 stin
just have one drive onto Peggy Ann Roaâ.
MR. CARR-So, what's the difference with Mr. Rowe on Aviation Road?
MRS. CRAYFORD-I don't know that I necessarily agreed with your decision on that.
MRS. EGGLESTON-No, but what's the difference?
MRS. CRAYFORD-There isn't any difference.
again, I agreed with your decision on that.
I agree, there isn't any difference, and I don't know that,
He was going to combine drives.
MR. CARR-Wen, I think that's what we're saying, is that we think the law may have been misapplied
in the past. Maybe it hasn't. Maybe we'11 get to a pubJic hearing and people will come out and say,
no, there was a reason for that to be there and they want it kept that way, but that's for a public
hearing and the Town legislature to decide.
MRS. CRAYFORD-I agree with you.
MR. CARR-And for us to, I mean, it's the same issue, this thing about glvlng a11 those variances to
the developers that I was against. The Town Board said they were going to deal with the issue, and
then all the developers came running in and our Town Attorney told us we had to give them the variances
on that, even though the Town Board was going to address the issue. I was uncomfortable with that,
and if the Town Board has made the position that they're going to address the issue, I'd say we've
got to give them time to address the issue. Yes, if it's not time enough for the applicants, and not
just the applicants here tonight, but for the other people who need it, they've all got representatives
on the Town Board. Give them a can and say, move it, you know, get something done with it, and I'm
sure we're going to be te11ing them the same thing in our meeting next week, move it and get something
done, so we can resolve this.
MRS. CRAYFORD-I just feel that each applicant is different. In some way, each application is different.
Just because you've turned down the rest, doesn't mean you need to turn this one down.
MR. CARR-I disagree. I don't see the difference, I guess. I don't see the difference between this
and the ones we have turned down.
MR. CARVIN-He had every right in the world to have that lot.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes, I think it would be a slap in the face to Mr. Rowe.
MR. CARR-Yes. I don't know if the app1icant would do this, I would prefer we don't act on this.
don't want to deny these.
MRS. CRAYFORD-I would suggest, the way you're going, that you ask the applicant's if they would a11
table for maybe two months while the Town Board pulls together a public hearing.
MR. CARR-And put some pressure on your Town representatives to resolve the issue.
MR. TURNER-That's what you've got to do, because we've addressed this issue way back, about three years
ago, and they haven't done anything with it. They've sat on it and sat on it and haven't done a thing.
So, now you guys have got to apply the pressure. They're the ones that change it. We can't.
MR. MCCORMACK-As a point of clarification for maybe this discussion, aside from the action that the
Town Board may take as far as the Ordinance is concerned, if, as you look at the map, lot 2, for instance
were increased from 150 width, which is what it is at right angles, to 300 feet, and if lot 1 were,
now we have a problem defining width versus depth. like if lot 1, for instance, were extended further
down the proposed driveway another 150 feet, doubling the lot size, lets say, and if the map were so
revised, now we've got two lots with double the lot width. We've got the minimum frontage required
on the public road. If that was the plan that we were submitting, do you see the need for any variance,
as a point of discussion?
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MR. CARR-As I understand it, the consistent interpretation of this Board has always been, it was lot
width measured at the point of the road.
MR. MCCORMACK-Along the road?
MR. TURNER-Along the road.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes, that's what we've used from the time they did the.
MR. MCCORMACK-If you read the definitions, that's not what it says.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes, it's a different.
MR. CARR-That's where the grey areas come up, and that's why we've got to get this resolved.
MR. MCCORMACK-I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just trying to focus in on.
MR. TURNER-But I can te11 you, from being on the Advisory COll1llíittee, that's what the intent, road
frontage. They didn't want those cuts into the road.
MRS. CRAYFORD-But that isn't what it says.
MR. TURNER-I don't care what it says. I didn't write it, but that was the intent of the Committee.
MRS. CRAYFORD-But I do. I have to enforce the way the Ordinance reads.
MR. TURNER-Wen, we've told you, we've always denied them, just based on road frontage, lot width,
double the lot width.
MRS. CRAYFORD-So, he can put together three conforming lots and have three driveways, and that'11 be
an right.
MR. CARR-Not in the lot width he's got.
MR. TURNER-Not in the lot width he's got.
MRS. CRAYFORD-No. He can come up with three lots out of that two times the lot width. He's got enough
land to do it.
MR. CARR-Right, but not with the road frontage.
MRS. CRAYFORD-Forty feet onto a Town road.
MR. CARR-It's got to be double the lot width.
MRS. CRAYFORD-He can have double the lot width, but 40 feet onto the Town road, because that's what
it says in here.
MR. TURNER-It's an arterial road, double the lot width.
MRS. CRAYFORD-I'm saying, he can have double the lot width, but if he has 40 feet onto the Town road,
he could still get a.
MR. TURNER-If he doesn't have 300 feet on a Town road, he can't have it.
MRS. CRAYFORD-He doesn't have to have it.
MR. TURNER-That's what it says.
MRS. CRAYFORD-Not right now. I would give him a building permit for it.
MR. CARR-Well, that's your decision.
MRS. CRAYFORD-And I'm not arguing with you. You have to understand that we've got some confJicting
opinions, here.
MR. TURNER-I understand fu11y, but they've been dragging their feet and not doing anything about it,
not necessarily this new Board, because they just jumped into it, but this has been hashed over many,
many times before, and if they didn't want to deal with it, that's not our position. Our position
is to enforce the Ordinance. It's their right to change it. Nobody's applied enough pressure, because
now all of a sudden these are all surfacing, because that's what's left.
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MRS. CRAYFORD-But you can't make up your own rules.
MR. TURNER-We're not making up rules.
MRS. CRAYFORD-Yes, you are, but it reads differently.
set of rules and this set of rules in front of you that
You can't make up your set of rules and this
have to enforce.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Isn't it a matter of interpretation?
MRS. CRAYFORD-No.
MR. CARR-But it has been interpretative to this Board since this rule's been in effect. I mean, we're
not making up this rule. It's not for these applicant's that we're saying, no, we're going to change
in the middle of the stream.
MR. TURNER-I could tell you, Dunfee's, Rourke, same thing, right on a road, right on the road frontage,
that's where they were denied, road frontage. There's two of them.
MRS. CRAYFORD-It's not fair to applicants and this other person come into the office and I say to them,
you can't apply for a variance because they're going to deny it. What am I suppose to say to them?
MRS. EGGLESTON-Apply for the variance.
MRS. CRAYFORD-Well, they are.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Then they've got to go to the Town Board and scream and holler. Mr. Brandt told us
last week that they're doing something about it.
MR. CARR-And I think it's right. That's what they should do.
MR. TURNER-The two lot subdivision, it's mY understanding, the public hearing's supposed to come up
in July.
MRS. CRAYFORD-Two lots.
MR. TURNER-That has nothing to do with this.
MRS. CRAYFORD-Nothing to do with this.
MR. TURNER-But that's supposed to come up, but they've got to address this, because I'll te11 you,
we're getting more and more of them.
MRS. CRAYFORD-Well, we're going to address it next Wednesday night at 6:30.
MR. CARR-Well, good, maybe we can get something moving on this and get these people some relief.
MR. TURNER-We can talk about it, but that's it.
MR. CARR-Get everybody some relief.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes.
MR. TURNER-It was done for a specific reason. The reason didn't materialize. Now they've got to step
back, look at it, and change it.
MRS. EGGlESTON-I mean, if they want us to do this, then, Pat, you go back and you dig out all the
app1ications that we've denied for this reasons. You call them up. You te11 them to come in here
and we'll be consistent the other way, but it isn't fair to do, to follow one pattern the whole way
through. and we all use the same criteria, and then all of a sudden say, no, no, no, and then one guy
comes and we say, yes.
ED CARDINALE
MR. CARDINALE-My name is Ed Cardinale. If in the past, you've made wrong decisions, and it's led up
to this point, then.
MR. TURNER-I don't think we made the wrong decision.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. We're not saying it's wrong. It's a matter of interpretation of the Ordinance.
MR. CARR-Different people are now interpreting it differently.
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MR. CARDINALE-Okay. Well, still, each case would be dealt with individually, sE:¡=._tely.
MR. CARR-Right, but you've got to use the rules you've used in the past. The rules have to be the
same, but each ~ has to be looked at for its own particular merits, but I mean, the rules can't
change with each applicant.
MARY CARDINALE
MRS. CARDINALE-Mary Cardinale. It was my understanding that the rule was so that you didn't have a
lot of driveways spilling out onto the road. What we're proposing is just one driveway.
MR. TURNER-The others were the same way, Mrs. Cardinale. We turned them down.
MR. CARR-That wasn't the interpretation of this Board. That was, maybe, an unwritten rule, that maybe
people are thinking that must have been what they wanted back then was less road cuts, but that's not
the way the Ordinance was written.
MRS. CARDINALE-Well, what l! the motive of the Ordinance?
MR. CARR-I think you're right. I mean, I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying that we can't give it
to one person.
MRS. CARDINALE-See, this is what I'm having a problem dea1ing with, is that you're telling me your
going to tell me no because you told this person no? What do they have to do with mY case?
MR. CARR-Because your case is the exact same thing this other person had, the exact same thing.
MRS. CARDINALE-Well, then maybe you should go back to those people and say, come back in.
MR. CARR-We11, that's what we're trying to do with the Town Board, is get them to change the rules
so you guys don't even have to be here.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. We're trying to be fair to everyone. It's the way they've done the reading.
The way they've written it.
MR. CARR-If they can change it, you don't even have to ~ before us.
MRS. CARDINALE-Yes, but when would that be? Now?
MR. CARR-As soon as we can get them moving, which we've been promising us, I hope, within two months.
MRS. EGGLESTON-You've got to pressure them.
MRS. CRAYFORD-Probably two months.
MRS. EGGLESTON-We need all the help we can get. I mean, you've got to pressure them to do it. They
know the problem's there.
MR. CARVIN-We can't change the law. That's up to them.
MRS. CARDINALE-But you can grant my variance, right?
MR. TURNER-No.
MRS. EGGLESTON-And say no to the next guy, because you want it?
MRS. CARDINALE-Say yes to the next person.
MRS. EGGLESTON-But what about the ones we've said no to?
MRS. CARDINALE-Send them letters. I don't know. let them come back and re-apply.
MRS. EGGLESTON-You just heard me say that I'd be glad to do that.
MR. CARR-Mrs. Cardinale, the problem is, though, what if we get to a public hearing, and a whole group
gets up and says, no, that wasn't the purpose of this. It was this reason. The Town Board says, you're
right, that was the real reason this was done. We're going to keep the law the same. Then we've given
all these variances because we think the Town Board's going to change it. I mean, then you're asking
us to be the legislature, to be the Town Board, and they get upset when we start doing that, and it's
not supposed to be our function. We're supposed to go by what the interpretation is and apply it to
everybody. The Town Board's the one that's going to te11 us whether or not that's the law, and if
31
it's not the law, they're going to change it, and hopefuny, because I rea11y hope that you win can
your Supervisor and I hope you ca11 your representative and say, you're holding us up, you're holding
Mr. Girard up. You're holding, Mr. Rowe got denied. He's held up. You've got to resolve this, and
you've got to resolve it quickly, and we're going to ten them next week. We've got a meeting with
them next week. We're going to ten them, you've got to resolve this, and you've got to resolve it
quickly.
MR. TURNER-We can't resolve it.
MR. MCCORMACK-Would you recommend that we ask that you table this application?
MR. TURNER-You can table it. I don't know that it's going to get any action.
MR. MCCORMACK-At least keep the door open.
MR. CARR-And hopefully the next thing will be that you will have to withdraw the application.
MR. TURNER-Yes. You want to table both applications?
MR. MCCORMACK-Yes.
MR. TURNER-Okay.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Do we need to open a public hearing or anything, Ted?
MR. TURNER-Not really, he's tabling the application before we get to public hearing.
MRS. EGGLESTON-Okay.
flJTION TO TABLE AREA VARIANCE NO. 58-1992 EIllARD I MARY CARDINALE, Introduced by Theodore Turner who
moved for its adoption, seconded by Bruce Carr:
At the request of the applicant.
Duly adopted this 17th day of June, 1992, by the following vote:
AYES: Mr. Carr, Mr. Carvin, Mrs. Eggleston, Mrs. Paling, Mr. Sicard, Mr. Turner
NOES: NONE
AREA VARIANCE NO. 59-1992 TYPE: UNLISTED SFR-lA JAJES GIRARD OWNER: SAtE AS ABOVE SOOTH SIDE
OF CRONIN ROAD FOR A 4 LOT SUBDIVISION FOR SINGLE FAMILY IIŒLLINGS, THERE IS ONE EXISTING RESIDENCE.
VARIANCE RE(JIIRED FOR LESS THAN DOUBLE THE LOT WIDTH. TAX MP NO. 59-1-5.1 I 5.8 LOT SIZE: 1.76
ACRES AND 4.05 ACRES SECTION 179-30
ANDREW MCCORMACK, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT
MR. TURNER-Do you want to speak for yourself, do you want to table your application, too?
JAMES GIRARD
MR. GIRARD-Yes.
flJTION TO TABLE AREA VARIANCE NO. 59-1992 JAJES GIRARD, Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved for
its adoption, seconded by Charles Sicard:
At the request of the applicant.
Duly adopted this 17th day of June, 1992, by the following vote:
AYES: Mrs. Paling, Mr. Sicard, Mr. Carr, Mr. Carvin, Mrs. Eggleston, Mr. Turner
NOES: NONE
MR. TURNER-Okay. We've got the minutes to do.
CORRECTION OF MINUTES
April 22nd, 1992: Page 12, down in the middle of the page, George Whipple, sIb George Wiswe11; Page
41, towards the bottom of the page, sixth line up, Mr. Turner is speaking, you've got to put up, sIb
a partition
32
(
-
ÞlJTION TO APPROVE APRIL 22ND, 1992 MIIIJTES AS CORRECTED, Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved for
its adoption, seconded by Marie Paling:
Duly adopted this 17th day of June, 1992, by the following vote:
AYES: Mr. Carr, Mr. Carvin, Mrs. Eggleston, Mrs. Paling, Mr. Sicard, Mr. Turner
NOES: NONE
On motion meeting was adjourned.
RESPECTFUllY SUBMITTED,
Theodore Turner, Chairman
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