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1992-10-28 OHIG\NAl QUEENSBURY ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS SECOND REGULAR MEETING OCTOBER 28TH. 1992 INDEX Use Variance No. 103-1992 Robert J . l1uessig 1. William J. Stiles 4. Michael Mabb 7. Hanley Sign Corp. 12. Robert S. Batease 16. Richard Broome 22. Thomas J . l1cGovern 23. Dan Furlong Adams & Rich Assoc. 41. Area Variance No. 105-1~92 Use Variance No. 106-1992 Sign Variance No. 107-1992 Use Variance No. 108-1992 Area Variance No. 110-1992 Area Variance No. 111-1992 Area Variance No. 114-1992 THESE ARE NOT OFFICIALLY ADOPTED MINUTES AND ARE SUBJECT TO BOARD AND STAFF REVISIONS. REVISIONS WILL APPEAR ON THE FOLLOWING MONTHS MINUTES (IF ANY) AND WILL STATE SUCH APPROVAL OF SAID MINUTES. QUEENSBURY ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS SECOND REGULAR MEETING OCTOBER 28TH. 1992 7:34 P.M. MEMBERS PRESENT THEODORE TURNER. CHAIRMAN JOYCE EGGLESTON. SECRETARY CHARLES SICARD FRED CARVIN CHRIS THOHAS THOHAS PHILO MARIE PALING PLANNER-ARLYNE RUTHSCHILD STENOGRAPHER-HARIA GAGLIARDI HR. TURNER-Just for starters, AREA VARIANCE NO. 95-1992 WILLIAM T. VOSBURGH. has been withdrawn by the applicant. AREA VARIANCE NO. 104-1992 EDWARD AND DEBORAH RIEFLIN, is not on the agenda. NEW BUSINESS: USE VARIANCE NO. 103-1992 TYPE II CR-15 ROBERT J. MUESSIG OWNER: LUCINDA HESS 105 LOWER DIX AVENUE PROPOSAL IS FOR RETAIL SALES AND DISPLAY OF USED MOTOR VEHICLES. NO EXTERIOR ALTERATIONS WILL BE MADE TO THE BUILDING. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) TAX MAP NO. 111-4-2 LOT SIZE: 1.11 ACRES SECTION 179-24 D ROBERT HUESSIG. PRESENT (7:34 p.m.) MRS. EGGLESTON-And the Warren County Planning Board approved. with the comments. "Applicant must provide the County Staff with a plan as to where parked cars for sale are located and parking for customers are located - a complete plan of the whole property. Also. plan must be available to the Town of Queensbury for their meeting. The WCPB recommends that the Town take a look at this area and grant a zone change instead of use variances for this area. Zone is inconsistent with the land uses that are located there. " STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff. Use Variance No. 103-1992, Robert J. Muessig. Meeting Date: October 28. 1992 "Applicant is proposing to operate a retail sales and display of used motor vehicles on a preexisting. nonconforming use parcel and is seeking a variance from the Town of Queensbury Zoning Ordinance Section 179-24D which permits only single family or duplexes as allowed uses. Reasonable return as zoned is not possible for the operation of the applicant's business on this lot. The circumstances of the lot are unique as it is a preexisting nonconforming parcel which has been used commercially since 1940. Applicant's proposed use will be consistent with current character of the neighborhood which is a commercial residential mix and will not have an adverse effect on the character of the neighborhood." MR. TURNER-Is the applicant in the room? All right. Does anyone have any questions? MR. CARVIN-I have a question of the applicant. That is going to be right in the old Linen Warehouse? MR. MUESSIG-Yes. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Are you going to do any interior modifications for automobiles or anything like that? 1 MR. MUESSIG-No. MR. CARVIN-In other words, there's not going to be a showroom or anything like that inside? MR. MUESSIG-No. MR. CARVIN-Okay. parking? How many cars do you anticipate using for MR. MUESSIG-A maximum of 20. MR. CARVIN-About 20. MR. TURNER-Where are you going to do your work on your vehicles, prep them for sale? MR. MUESSIG-I don't do any work on vehicles, myself. We use. MR. TURNER-Off site? MR. MUESSIG-Yes. MR. TURNER-There'll be no work performed on site. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Is that going to run interference with the ice operation there? Because I know that there's a loading dock back here that kind of slopes downhill? MR. MUESSIG-No. We're clearly separated from the neighbors. MR. CARVIN-So, assuming you had a real busy day, you would have, what, between 25 to 40 cars on the lot, 25 cars being shown, and another 10 or so? MR. MUESSIG-Well, no, I wouldn't anticipate that much. MR. TURNER-What are you going to do for a sign? MR. MUESSIG-The sign, we're going to use the existing sign that's there, that Mr. Hess had a use variance tor that sign MR. TURNER-Do you have that layout, that Warren County? MR. MUESSIG-I submitted it the other day. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-It's the attached map that's attached to. MRS. EGGLESTON-Attached to the? MRS. RUTHSCHILD-Yes. MR. TURNER-How about your own vehicles, where are you going to park them? MR. MUESSIG-The car drive is a demo, which is part of the inventory. MR. TURNER-Okay. MRS. EGGLESTON-What do you have for total parking space, do you figure, including parked vehicles? What is your whole total parking capacity for your section of that business? MR. MUESSIG-We would probably be able to comfortably park 27 cars, 28 cars, in the area that's designated for our use. MRS. EGGLESTON-So, you're going to have a special area for where the customers park? 2 MR. MUESSIG-Yes. MRS. EGGLESTON-Is that all going to be marked off? MR. MUESSIG-Yes. We indicated on that map where the parking would be for the customers. I understand we also have to have one handicapped. MRS. EGGLESTON-And what did you say. you'd have approximately 20 vehicles for sale at one time? MR. MUESSIG-Yes. I think that would be the larger end of the scale. I don't use that many cars. but we do have enough room for that. MRS. EGGLESTON-So. when you're finished. how many operations will there be in that building? MR. MUESSIG-In the building itself will be Hess Ventures. There's a smaller office with a dental lab in the back. MRS. EGGLESTON-Okay. MR. PHILO-You're going to have 20 cars there of your own? MR. MUESSIG-Approximately. yes. MR. TURNER-I don't necessarily agree with Warren County's thoughts that that's zoned wrong. It's not zoned wrong. It just happens to be that that corner has always been a business corner. and there are residents down through there. and that's why we zoned it Commercial Residential. because we knew. maybe later on. that that whole alleyway might become Highway Commercial sooner or later. and it is going that way. but this present building has always had a hardship in maintaining businesses on that corner. I don't know what there is about it. but it just has. It comes and goes. That's not the fault of zoning. That's the fault of some other reason. location or whatever. MR. CARVIN-You're not planning any internal changes. and you're not going to be servicing any cars there? So. I mean there's not going to be any lifts or washes or things like that? MR. MUESSIG-No. It's just the sales and display. MR. PHILO-You won't be coming off Dix Avenue anyway. right? MR. MUESSIG-No. Our intention is to use Queensbury. MR. TURNER-Okay. Any further questions of the applicant? MR. SICARD-I was just wondering about the repairs. MR. TURNER-I just asked him. He said no repairs. MR. SICARD-No repairs. MR. TURNER-It'll be off the premises. MR. SICARD-Washing or anything? MRS. EGGLESTON-No cleaning? MR. TURNER-He's going to have to wash his cars there. vacuum them out. MR. MUESSIG-Yes. Cleaning mechanical. We don't do it ourselves. MRS. EGGLESTON-So. what section of the property is that going to be on. that. how much do you figure that will take up? Are you going 3 to have a special designated spot for the cleaning area? MR. MUESSIG-Well, the Queensbury Avenue side of the building, there's an outlet for a hose, a water hose, which Mr. Hess washes his trucks in that area, too. MR. PHILO-It's going to be done outside? MR. TURNER-Yes. There's no facilities. MRS. EGGLESTON-Ted, would that create a lot of water running down Queensbury Avenue, if you have a consistent? MR. TURNER-That depends on how often he has to wash them. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. I was thinking about the water running down from washing vehicles. MR. TURNER-He won't be washing many vehicles there in the winter. He'll probably take them to the carwash. MR. MUESSIG-Yes. MR. TURNER-Okay. If there's no further questions, let me open the public hearing. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED NO COMMENT PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED MR. TURNER-Since this is a problem piece of property, I don't know how the rest of you feel, but if we decide to approve the variance, I would like that the variance would terminate with the termination of the business. MR. CARVIN-I'd also like to see a maximum of no more than 20 or 25 cars. MR. TURNER-All right. Well, put a number on it, but it's going to be tough for him to go down there and count them, but I think 20 cars is adequate. MR. CARVIN-Is that okay with the applicant? MR. MUESSIG-Sure. That's fine. MR. TURNER-Okay. Motion's in order. MOTION TO APPROVE USE VARIANCE NO. 103-1992 ROBERT J. MUESSIG, Introduced by Charles Sicard who moved for its adoption, seconded by Thomas Philo: For retail sales and display of used motor vehicles. We've limited it to no more than 20 cars on the site at anyone time. There will be no repair of any of the cars on site. There will be no exterior alterations to the building. There seems to be no complaints. This variance will expire with the termination of this business. Duly adopted this 28th day of October, 1992, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Philo, Mr. Carvin, Mrs. Eggleston, Mrs. Paling, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Sicard, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE (7:52 p.m.) AREA VARIANCE NO. 105-1992 TYPE II RR-5A WILLIAM J. STILES OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE WOODCHUCK HILL STONE SCHOOL HOUSE TO REMOVE A PORTION OF THE EXISTING HOUSE AND REPLACE WITH A 4 FOUNDATION AND ADDITION ONTO DWELLING. THIS WILL BE AN ENLARGEMENT OF A PREEXISTING NONCONFORMING STRUCTURE. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) TAX MAP NO. 23-1-38 LOT SIZE: 0.22 ACRES SECTION 179-79 A2. 179- 79 E WILLIAM STILES. PRESENT (7:52 p.m.) MRS. EGGLESTON-And the Warren County Planning Board returned. "No County Impact". STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff. Area Variance No. 105-1992. William J. Stiles. Meeting Date: October 28. 1992 "Applicant is proposing to remove a portion of an existing residence and replace with a foundation and a 20 ft. by 24 ft. addition which will be used as living space. Conformance with use/area code regulations: Applicant is seeking an Area Variance from the Queensbury Zoning Ordinance. Section 179- 79A(2) which states that the expansion of an existing structure shall not exceed 50 percent of existing square footage. The existing structure is 646 sq. ft.. proposed addition would increase the square footage to 1.300 sq. ft. - approximately 100 percent increase in square footage. Applicant is seeking an additional variance from the Queensbury Zoning Ordinance Section 17 9-15C. which requires a 30 ft. side yard setback requirement. Placement of proposed addition will create a side yard setback of 8 ft. 1 in. Review Criteria: 1. Practical difficulty rests with the need to expand existing structure to provide sufficient living space will require greater than 50 percent expansion of existing structure's square footage. and proposed placement of structure will create an 8 ft. 1 in. side yard setback. 2. The minimum variance is necessary to alleviate the specific practical difficulties as the applicant believes that the addition will provide the necessary minimum living space and proposed site for expansion is the only practical option available for the addition. 3. The variance will not be detrimental to area or neighborhood as the structure is consistent with a residential neighborhood and applicant believes that the addition will maintain the look of a historic area road. (Woodchuck Hill Road is listed on the Queensbury Heritage Trail Map) . 4. The variance will not effect public facilities or services and the minimum variance is necessary to alleviate specified practical difficulties." MR. STILES-William Stiles. MR. TURNER-What's the layout of the present building. as far as the floor plan of the stone part of it? MR. STILES-The stone part is the living room. MR. TURNER-That's just the living room. Are you going to tear the two wooden additions off? MR. STILES-No. just the last. MR. TURNER-The last one? MR. STILES-There's a stone foundation under it. MR. TURNER-Okay. What does that do to your floor plan if you turned it the other way and made it an L? MR. STILES-I don't understand what you mean. MR. TURNER-Heading south. if you come this way. so you could come in away from that. come this way. If you put it down this way. if you bring it this way. what would that do? MR. STILES-I want to stay away from the main portion of the house because that is the stone school house. I didn't want it to 5 .~ interfere with the look of the building. MR. TURNER-All right. but you're adding 100 percent. You're going 100 percent. That's the existing. This is the proposed. MR. STILES-That's the existing map. and this also. this roof line is lower than the main part of the house. MR. TURNER-Yes. You're right. Okay. The eXisting building that's there. the one you're going to leave is what? How long is the existing building that you're going to leave? MR. STILES-Nine feet by thirteen. MR. TURNER-Nine feet? So. you're actually cutting into it. then, here, because you're going back the 6'2. MR. STILES-Yes. I'm attaching it to put something. MR. TURNER-Yes. three feet of it. MR. CARVIN-Do you know how long ago those other additions were put on, how old they are. approximately? MR. STILES-No. MR. CARVIN-No? Okay. How long have you owned the house? MR. STILES-About five years. MR. CARVIN-Okay, and those aren't things that YOU put on then? MR. STILES-No. I believe the last portion was put on in the 30's. I was told by a fellow that was there before that it was originally a wood shed that some had spun around and stuck on. MR. CARVIN-What's the outside of the addition of be? Is it going to be wood. cedar? MR. STILES-Wood, cedar. painted white. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Then it's not going to be stone or anything like that to try to blend in with the old building? MR. STILES-No. MR. CARVIN-Okay. MR. TURNER-Any further questions? None? Okay. Let me open the pUblic hearing. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED NO COMMENT PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED MR. TURNER-It's a 30 foot setback that's required. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. So. he'd need 21.9 feet of relief? MR. TURNER-Yes. MRS. EGGLESTON-Well, I don't know what else you could do there. It's tiny. It's small. MR. TURNER-No. It's a preexisting, nonconforming lot. MR. PHILO-McLaughlin owns that property over to the right. 6 MR. TURNER-Across the road. MR. STILES-All around. MR. TURNER-All around you? MR. PHILO-Did you ask Scotty if he'd sell any of it? MR. STILES-I never see him. lives up off Ridge Road. As his property. The insurance him money, and apparently he He doesn't live there anymore. He a matter of fact, I had a tree fall on company tried to contact him to give didn't want it. MR. TURNER-Okay. A motion's in order. MOTION TO APPROVE AREA VARIANCE NO. 105-1992 WILLIAM J. STILES, Introduced by Joyce Eggleston who moved for its adoption, seconded by Fred Carvin: And grant relief from Section 179-79A2, thereby allowing 100 percent expansion of the dwelling. The practical difficulty is the existing dwelling is only a small 646 square foot structure, and to preserve the applicant's rights to enlarge the dwelling, it would require a variance. This will also grant relief of 21.9 feet on the east side. It's a preexisting nonconforming lot, and applicant is requesting minimum relief necessary to alleviate the difficulty. The variance would not be detrimental to the area or the neighborhood, as the proposed structure is consistent with the residential neighborhood. The variance will not effect public facilities or services, and there is no neighborhood opposition. Duly adopted this 28th day of October, 1992, by the following vote: AYES: Mrs. Eggleston, Mrs. Paling, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Sicard, Mr. Philo, Mr. Carvin, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE (8:06 p.m.) USE VARIANCE NO. 106-1992 TYPE II MR-5 SAME AS ABOVE CORNER OF MASSACHUSETTES AND CONSTRUCTION OF A 40 FT. BY 60 FT. GARAGE. ACCESSORY USE. TAX MAP NO. 128-2-6 (TO BE 27.600 SQ. FT. COMBINED SECTION 179-7(B) MICHAEL MABB OWNER: CENTRAL AVENUES FOR REQUEST FOR A SECOND COMBINED) LOT SIZE: MICHAEL MABB, PRESENT (8:06 p.m.) STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff, Use Variance No. 106-1992, Michael Mabb, Meeting Date: October 28, 1992 "PROJECT SUMMARY: Applicant is proposing to build a 40 ft. by 60 ft. garage as a second accessory use structure, to store a variety of vehicles, snowmobiles, and miscellaneous equipment. STAFF REVIEW: Reasonable return would not be possible as zoned, as use of property would be limited, and applicant's stated intention is to "clean up property" by storing a variety of cars and equipment in a building to reduce clutter on the property and visual impact to neighbors. STAFF COMMENT: Applicant will need to apply for two (2) more variances before construction begins: 1. Use Variance, Section 179-7, Garaqe. Private Parkinq for noncompliance with storage of no more than three automobiles. 2. Area Variance, Section 179-7, Garaqe. Private Parkinq for noncompliance with the 900 sq. ft. maximum area requirement. Additionally, the staff is concerned that use of this structure be confined to the storage of cars and equipment and not be used as an automobile repair or body shop." MR. TURNER-Mr. Mabb, the garage you have now is what? MR. MABB-Probably about 24 by 24, I think. 7 - -, MR. TURNER-And what do you do in that garage? MR. MABB-That's where I've got cars now that I use, antique cars. MR. TURNER-Is this a full time? MR. MABB-No, no. This is just a hobby. It's not for business. MRS. EGGLESTON-What kind of repair is it that you do? MR. MABB-I buy them and rebuild them. MR. TURNER-You re-do them and you sell them? MR. MABB-No. I sold one, and I've been in it 10 years. MRS. EGGLESTON-What do you do? You sure can't drive them all. MR. MABB-I use them for car shows. one. My father's got one. I drive one. My wife's got MRS. EGGLESTON-So, you'd be doing, like, one vehicle at a time, or? Do you want this mainly for storage? MR. MABB-Yes, just for storage. MR. PHILO-Are you working out of the existing barn now? MR. MABB-Yes. MR. PHILO-You're doing the repair work there? MR. MABB-Yes. I don't know if you'd consider it a hobby. MR. TURNER-Are you going to run the electrical service to the storage barn? If this gets approved, would you run electrical service to the storage barn? Would you run water to it? MR. MABB-I have no water in mind now, but I may run power to it, so I can have a light to see in there. I don't believe I'd have water in there. I have no water in my garage now. MRS. EGGLESTON-What do you do for a living, Mr. Mabb? MR. MABB-I'm a mechanic at Quaker Ford. MR. CARVIN-How many cars do you own? MR. MABB-About five. MRS. EGGLESTON-Does that include the campers and things that were on the property? MR. MABB-No. That's not the campers and all that. MR. CARVIN-Okay. own? Let me rephrase that. How may vehicles do you MR. MABB-Eight, four snowmobiles. MRS. EGGLESTON-How many members of your household are there? MR. MABB-My wife, myself, my father, my daughter. MR. CARVIN-Do you know who owns the garage, what appears to be a large garage? MR. MABB-That's Sy Green's, probably his kid's now. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Have you looked into storage in there? I mean, 8 is there space that he could rent, or would rent? MR. MABB-I don't really want to rent. It's a waste of money. MR. CARVIN-Okay. I don't really want to build a 2400 square foot garage there either. MR. MABB-I know, but I've got a big house, so. MR. TURNER-Yes, but you've got a nice piece of property there. You've probably got one of the biggest lots up there, 27,000 square feet, and the purpose of that zone is for multi family residential zone, and it's not meant to build those kind of structures on it. MR. MABB-Well, my plan, someday, on the other side of the house, which is an empty lot, putting a smaller house there, if I get on in years and don't want to run up and down stairs. MR. TURNER-No, but you know, that neighborhood is changing quite a lot, and the people are beautifying their homes and they're bringing their homes up, and that neighborhood is getting to look a lot nicer, and you've got a nice looking house there. You already have an accessory use. You can only have one. What's your hardship? You don't have one, do you? MR. MABB-I need a place for my hobbies, that's all. MR. SICARD-Mr. Chairman, excuse me. Did I hear you say there was going to be repair work in both of these structures now, the new one proposed and the old one? MR. TURNER-No. He says the big one he wants to store the vehicles in, and the small one he wants to use to repair and restore the cars. MR. SICARD-Then what you're saying is there's absolutely no repair work in the 40 by 60 garage. Is that the way it is? MR. TURNER-I don't know that yet, but what I'm saying, Charlie, is the neighborhood up there. MR. CARVIN-It's a big garage. HR. TURNER-It's a huqe garage, and he's got a big lot. defeats the purpose of the multifamily residential zone. That MR. PHILO-How high is that garage going to be? MR. MABB-It would probably have a 12 foot ceiling. MR. SICARD-Tax wise it's going to be a big problem. garage, if you don't use it. It's a big MR. TURNER-How big are the doors, the overhead doors? HR. PHILO-That's going to block that whole corner? MR. CARVIN-Yes. Absolutely. MR. MABB-Well, it's behind the, it wouldn't be on the corner. MRS. EGGLESTON-What do you figure the cost of that might be? MR. MABB-About $22,000. MRS. EGGLESTON-This is to be used for storage. MR. PHILO-It's going to be a metal building? MR. MABB-Yes. 9 --- MR. TURNER-What's the size of the overhead door. Mr. Mabb? MR. MABB-I haven't really decided on the size of the doors. MR. TURNER-Twelve feet high? MR. MABB-No. I don't think 12 feet. no. MR. TURNER-Which one is it? MR. MASB-It would probably be something like this here. wanted to make sure I got the go ahead first. and then. get colored coded the same as the house. I just You can MR. TURNER-I know. but what I'm saying to you is the purpose of the zone is not. you're allowed an accessory use. which you have. MR. PHILO-Sixty by forty is a big building. some feet high. That's got to be 20 MR. MABS-My house is probably over there. I've probably got one of the biggest houses in the area. MR. TURNER-Yes. you have. You've got a nice house. MR. MABS-It wasn't like that when I moved in. I made it like that. MR. TURNER-Yes. I know. MR. MASS-So. I have improved things there. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. SICARD-I think it's an awfully big garage. Of course if he has use for it. for just storage. it's going to take a lot to fill it just for storage. There's a lot of repair shops up in that section. and I'm sure they don't need a couple of more. but if he says he's not going to repair there. he's not going to repair there. MR. MABB-No. I don't want to run a business there. MR. TURNER-Any further questions of the applicant? open the public hearing. Okay. 1'11 PUBLIC HEARING OPENED NO COMMENT PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED MR. TURNER-Any discussion? MR. SICARD-I'm just concerned about it. It's fine. probably. for him. but what's going to happen when he's gone? MR. TURNER-That's it. MR. SICARD-It's a big structure. to begin with. It's more like a warehouse than it is a garage. It's probably going to fit his use, but just what happens when he decides to move up to Bedford Close or some place. MRS. EGGLESTON-Not only that. it's big enough that, Charlie. you could use it for commercial and there'd be no way to police. you know. no way to control it. MR. THOMAS-What about these other two variances required? MR. TURNER-Well. if he doesn't get this one. it would be null and 10 void. MR. THOMAS-If he does get this one, more? e's got to come in tor two MR. TURNER-Yes. MRS. EGGLESTON-Chris, just to clarify hat, we don't have any plans for the garage, tonight, with dimensi ns from your side lines and all that sort of thing. So, it would be hard to get. MR. MABB-That's all on the map right here, my side lines. MRS. EGGLESTON-It is? MR. TURNER-It's on there, but it prob bly wasn't advertised. So, it's going to have to be advertised. MRS. EGGLESTON-All right. Okay. MR. MABB-Because they sent letters ou ask me about it, as far as Van Dusen that's way down. to people. I've had them oad people got letters, and MR. TURNER-If you're within 500 feet you get a letter. want to make a motion? Do you MOTION TO APPROVE AREA VARIANCE NO Introduced by Charles Sicard who move by 106-1992 MICHAEL MABB, for its adoption, seconded To build a 2400 square foot garage. his seems to be the minimum variance necessary to alleviate the sp cific practical difficulty. A building of this size, there's no ot er place on that lot or any other lot in that area, to place it. The variance is not detrimental 'to any other property in t e district or neighborhood, and would not conflict with any plan 0 policy of the Town. There seems to be no objections to it from th audience here tonight, and there's no effects of the varianc on public services and utilities. MR. MABS-If it would make it easier, could back it up into that corner. It doesn't have to be out be ind that garage. HR. TURNER-I'm against having a see ndary accessory use there because you're allowed one and it's m ltifamily residential. You haven't proved your case. You've got a garage. You've got your accessory. That's all you're entitle to. MR. SICARD-I'm sure that it's not obs ructing views of anyone in that neighborhood, or they'd be here onight. MR. TURNER-I know, Charlie, but you've got to be consistent. You can't approve one and not approve the ext one. This condition is no different. He's got a garage. H' s got his accessory. Now you're going to give him a second one that size. He could add on to the existing garage, make it 900 s uare feet. MR. THOMAS-He could make a 900 square f ot addition to the existing garage? MRS. EGGLESTON-No. It has to be total 900 square foot garage. MR. TURNER-He can increase that to 900 square feet. MR. THOMAS-It's pretty close to 900 sq are feet now, that existing garage. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. 11 -' MR. TURNER-No second. The motion dies for lack of a second. Do we have another motion? MOTION TO DENY USE VARIANCE NO. 106-19 2 MICHAEL MABB. Introduced by Joyce Eggleston who moved for its adoption, seconded by Marie Paling: 'l'he applicant has not demonstrated hat a reasonable return is impossible if the property is used as zoned, and I don't believe his rights are being violated as the pplicant already has a two car garage. I believe the proposed garage would have a visual impact on the neighborhood, and not a ood one, and I believe that it's maximum relief asked by the app icant. I believe it would have an adverse effect on the neighbor ood and the area in general. Duly adopted this 28th day of October, 1992, by the following vote: MRS. EGGLESTON-I do have to do one thOng before we take the vote. There is a letter from a neighbor, an I'd like to read that into the minutes, in case it effects anybod 's voting. It's from Andrew and Helen Cordiale, Massachussettes A enue, "In regard to the use of Variance No. 106-1992 of Michael M bb for construction of a 40 foot by 60 foot garage, for a second ac essory use at the corner of Massachussettes and Central Avenues, w have no reservations to the building of such a structure. We here y say that we do approve of this and welcome it." AYES: Mrs. Paling, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Si ard, Mr. Philo, Mr. Carvin, Mrs. Eggleston, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE (8:29 p.m.) SIGN VARIANCE NO. 107-1992 TYPE II HC-1A HANLEY SIGN CORP. OWNER: FRANK COLLINS 274 BAY ROAD TO MAINTAIN EXISTING SIGN PANELS FOR THE TWO EXISTING BUSIN SSES AND ADD PANELS FOR ENTERPRISE RENT-A-CAR. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) TAX MAP NO. 105- 1-12 LOT SIZE: NIA SECTION 140-6(3)(D). SHOPPING CENTER JEFF MILLER, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, RESENT (8:29 p.m.) MRS. EGGLESTON-The Warren County Plann'ng Board approved, with the comment, concur with local conditions. STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff, Sign Variance No.1 7-1992, Hanley Sign Corp., Heeting Date: October 28, 1992 "SUM ARY OF PROJECT: Applicant proposes to add two (2) sign panels, of an existing business, to an existing freestanding double-faced mas nry sign located in a small shopping center. VARIANCE REQUEST: pplicant is seeking relief from the Queensbury Sign Ordinance ection 140-6B (3) (d) which permits one (1) freestanding sign, denoting the name of the shopping center for each entrance fronting on a different street or highway. (Difficulty arises from the act that the Ordinance does not address the use of freestanding, double-sided signs that list occupants of shopping centers.) CR TERIA FOR VARIANCE: 13. Circumstances are special regarding the sign, as it is a preexisting, nonconforming, double-fac d, freestanding masonry sign which lists the occupants of the shopping center. Applicant's proposal is to add the name of an ex'sting business to the sign which currently lists the names of two 2) other businesses located in the shopping center and all of w om are not visible to the public from the road. 14. Reasonabl use of the sign cannot be complied with; sign is preexisting and onconforming. 15. Project will not adversely effect the neighborhood character as sign is preexisting and is currently listing t 0 (2) of the centers' three (3) occupants. 16. There is no othe feasible alternatives for third business' sign as sign structure is permanent. 17. Adding two (2) panels to sign will not cre te any substantial change relative to the Ordinance as sign structure is preexisting." 12 MR. HANLEY-Jeff Miller, for Hanley Si MR. TURNER-Just so everybody knows, th s was light industrial, this piece of property, and it got changed to Highway Commercial, part of it. So, the uses are different no , on the front end, but the other thing, too, is I think Hr. Collins has something in the works, as far as doing something wi h those businesses in the front, at least he indicated that to me at one time. I think he's talking about re-organizing them some way. I know the one in the back, the car place is, you can't see 't coming up. There's no way you can see it. If you look hard fo it, you can see it coming down Bay, but you've got to know it's there. HR. PHILO-Frank Collins owns the sign MR. HILLER-He owns the sign. HR. TURNER-He owns the sign on the pr right? MR. PHILO-What are you, just applying permit? HR. MILLER-Just to put two aluminum s'gn panels on there that say Enterprise Rent-A-Car, as per the ske ch. HR. PHILO-I wouldn't have any objectio on there, but I would ask one thing. are not really, it doesn't look good either plastered or some duroseal, so s of them putting the panels The aesthetics of that sign the masonry background is ething put on, plastercoat. MR. MILLER-Behind where the sign pane MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. MR. MILLER-I believe that's a plywood, probably needs a paint. MR. PHILO-It's block, okay. HR. MILLER-The background's block? MR. PHILO-Where you're going to put the panels on it's all masonry. If that's plywood, it's damn good. I 's been there since 1949. MRS. EGGLESTON-Tom, are you referring to the discoloration of the thing'? MR. PHILO-All of this right in here. hat's all block work, and I said if they took that one sign off right there and plastered the whole thing, because it looks like som thing, dress it up, I would have no obj ections, but you look at he sign and it's got half painted block work behind it, and the this here where they took that sign out is just rough block work. The aesthetics of the sign should be brought up to. MRS. EGGLESTON-See, I think he's talking about, the sign's not in good condition. MR. MILLER-Right. Well, this is why hey're one sign panel came off, that's why it wasn't painted behind it, probably. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. MR. PHILO-I say plaster it, because if you're going to keep it up there, you're going to keep some main enance. If you just paint it, it still looks rough. HRS. EGGLESTON-Is your sign going to go right here? MR. MILLER-Yes. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yours is going to cover that white spot there. 13 MR. TURNER-Yes. What he's talking ab ut is this area here. MR. PHILO-The whole bottom. from that top side down. MRS. EGGLESTON-Well. in all due respec . wouldn't Mr. Collins have to do that. and we're dealing with th s man's problem tonight. of whether he can put it there. He's just going to put his sign on there. MR. PHILO-It's going to cost him $30 for a bag of DuroSeal to go plaster it. I f he wants a sign. I think he should make the aesthetics look nice. MRS. PALING-But it's not his. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. He can't do much. He's not the owner. HR. TURNER-This comes under the cr'teria. that businesses there. now this becomes a sopping plaza. of that? there's three Are you aware MR. MILLER-Yes. but it's unlike others on Quaker Road. that you can see. MR. TURNER-I know. It's different. There's no doubt about it. but I'm saying. what I said to you before was he had a plan where he was going to modify that property a d do something with those bui ldings. So. as far as I'm co cerned. I don't have any objections to the sign going there as you propose it. but I would only limit that sign to be there eith r until their gone. if they leave then that sign goes. MRS. EGGLESTON-If who leaves. Collins? MR. TURNER-Rent-A-Car. MRS. EGGLESTON-Just go with his business. you mean. the Enterprise? MR. TURNER-That's all. Because then hat takes the stigma of the three businesses off of it. MR. PHILO-Could you fix that backgrou d of that sign up? If that sign is only. say. eight foot by five ten by five. Can you fix that up? You don't see Howard Joh sons. or any other three businesses. You run a million dollar business or whatever it is. piece of property. and you've got a 15 cent sign out there. HR. HILLER-I represent Hanley Sign Co p.. not Enterprise Rent-A- Car. I can talk to them. MR. TURNER-Well. that belongs to Frank MR. PHILO-I just wanted to see the aest etics of the sign upgraded. MRS. PALING-That's not his problem. Frank's got to do that. MRS. EGGLESTON-The owner's got to do something with it. HR. SICARD-Mr. Chairman. isn't there something in the Ordinance about people moving out. they have so m ny days to remove the sign? MR. TURNER-Yes. they do. but. HR. SICARD-So that doesn't have to be part of our. anything. MRS. EGGLESTON-We could refer it to the Beautification Committee. Fred says. if you think it needs a lit Ie posy or something. fixed up. I don't see that as this guy's problem. It's the Enterprise Rent-A-Car's problem. 14 MR. MILLER-From knowing Paul with Enterprise. I'm sure that wouldn't be a problem. putting some pint on there. MRS. EGGLESTON-Okay. MR. PHILO-I'd say fine. then. MR. SICARD-Who is Enterprise? MR. MILLER-That's a franchise that's down the Connecticut way. There's a area. up into the area from of them in the Albany MRS. EGGLESTON-Are they owned locally. MR. MILLER-Out of Connecticut. I beli MR. TURNER-Okay. Any further question relief from the fact that that is a sho businesses there now. and that's High shopping center. of the applicant? He needs ping center. There's three ay Commercial. so that's a HR. SICARD-Relief. basically. from Street. distance back from Bay MR. TURNER-Yes. but a shopping center plaza. all right. There is no name f businesses that are there. and that's that respect. an only have the name of the r the plaza. There's three hy we're dealing with it in MRS. EGGLESTON-Ted. is this true. then that the Ordinance doesn't address. in shopping centers. the fre standing signs? MR. TURNER-Yes. it does. It addresses shopping centers. Shopping Centers are allowed one freestanding s'gn denoting the name of the plaza. The other businesses have th right to put the name of their business on the walls. Yes. MR. SICARD-The size. also. is excessi e. due to the distance from Bay Street. you know that. Hr. with the other two? HR. TURNER-Yes. Total signage is Miller? Do you know what the total MR. SICARD-Yes. It's eight by twenty two. MR. TURNER-I know what his is. but I mean. do you know what the other two signs are? HR. HILLER-No. I' don't know what the other signs. relatively two foot high by eight foot. They're all HR. TURNER-All right. Well. he's going to need relief from the setback. Even though the sign. HRS. EGGLESTON-No. but I mean. it'll two signs that are there. It won't something that's&' onform. like. to the other be some garish purple or MR. MILLER-No. It's a white background with a black copy. and then where you see like the E on the side. that's green. That's their logo. MR. PHILO-So. after you put that sign u . there's only room for one more sign anyway. right? MR. MILLER-Correct. MR. PHILO-Would you say to me that you're going to paint that. or make that look aesthetically okay. the rest of that two foot? 15 MR. TURNER-Tom, he can't do it. Fran's got to do it. MR. MILLER-I feel relatively sure tha Enterprise will spend more for the paint. MR. PHILO-Because when Dempsey had it, there was a block company in there, and they had the whole thing, sign over the whole thing. Now, they took the plywood off the igns, and they just piece- mealed little signs in here and there. MR. TURNER-Okay. Any further I'll open the public hearing. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED NO COMMENT PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED of the applicant? If not, MR. TURNER-Okay. No further discussi n? Motion's in order. MOTION TO APPROVE SIGN VARIANCE NO.1 7-1992 HANLEY SIGN CORP., Introduced by Theodore Turner who move for its adoption, seconded by Joyce Eggleston: This is to maintain an existing sign p nel with two sign panels on it now, and to add one for Enterprise Rent-A-Car. The difficulty the applicant has with advertising E terprise Rent-A-Car is the fact that the business is behind an e isting business which can't be seen from Bay Road coming north and oing south. The sign panel is 22 inches wide and 8 foot long. H also has to have relief of 7 feet from the front property line set ack, which is a requirement of 15 feet. The practical difficulty s with the alignment of the buildings on the property, which im oses the hardship on the applicant for the location of the sign. That the applicant is also granted relief from the requirement 0 a freestanding sign. The Ordinance imposes a condition on th appl icant that the three businesses are now a shopping plaza. Therefore, a freestanding sign is required with the plaza name 0 it, instead of these to be mounted on this masonry panel. He is granted relief from this Section, 6.103, Paragraph 4, Shopping Center. Duly adopted this 28th day of October, 992, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Thomas, Mr. Sicard, Mr. Philo, Mr. Carvin, Mrs. Eggleston, Mrs. Paling, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE (8:51 p.m.) USE VARIANCE NO. 108-1992 TYPE II LI-1A ROBERT S. BATEASE OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE MERRITT ROAD FOR PLACEMENT OF A 15 FT. BY 25 FT. GARAGE ON THE PROPERTY AS A TH RD ACCESSORY USE. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) TAX MAP NO. 146-1 9 LOT SIZE: 0.77 ACRES SECTION 179-7(B) ROBERT BATEASE, PRESENT (8:51 p.m.) HRS. EGGLESTON-Warren County P lannin Board approved, with the comment, concur with local conditions. STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff, Use Variance No. 1 8-1992, Robert S. Batease, Meeting Date: October 28, 1992 .. Applicant is proposing to construct a 15 ft. by 25 ft. garage or storage purposes, which will be a third accessory use structure on the property. Conformance with Use/Area code regulations: Applicant is seeking relief from the Queensbury Zoning 0 dinance, Section 179-6 7B, definition of Accessory Use Structure, which implies a single use structure category, by employing the singular form of the words 16 ..........,," .. structure" or .. building" in the t' tle and definition of the category. Proposed garage will be a third accessory use structure. Review Criteria: Reasonable return 0 the property is restricted as zoned because definition refers to "building" and "structure" in the singular and therefore. multiple similar use structures are restricted. The variance will not have an adverse effect on the neighborhood as this area is a mi of light industrial and residential. Staff Comments: This parcel is preexisting and nonconforming in its area. lot de th and left side setback dimensions. Placement of the third ccessory use structure will reduce the rear yard setback to ten 10) feet. but Section 179- (;) 7A (3) . .. Accessory Structures and Uses" . permits accessory structures. in the LI (Light Indust ial) zone. (referred to as "other zones" in the Ordinance) to be placed as close as ten (10) feet from the rear property line." to store in it? MR. TURNER-Mr. Batease. what are you MR. BATEASE-I have an antique car. MR. PHILO-What do you have in r barns? MR. BATEASE-I've got an antique car and I have a work area. MR. TURNER-I've got to say the same thing I did to the other fellow. That's pretty much a residen ial area. even though it's zoned Light Industrial. and the resid ntial came along before the Light Industrial came along. and I t ink to put this garage in there. you already have an existing g rage. rages already. an existing the house. then the larger MRS. EGGLESTON-Actually. he has two garage and then a larger garage. one garage to the side. MR. TURNER-So. my reasoning is this time as it was before. MR. BATEASE-Can I say something? What would you do in a case like this? I've got some $60,000 worth of cars out there. and I would like to take care of them. and I'd l'ke to keep them out of the yard. MR. TURNER-I know. I hear you. MRS. EGGLESTON-How much garage space per vehicles would you say you now have. you currently have to park. maybe six, four in the big garage. and two '? HR. BATEASE-No. I don't use the big g the shop that you were looking at Satu 1 have machinery in there. I have brought up when I sold the place to C use it as a hobby more or less now. W these cars, I bring it in there. I mo and I bring it in there and work. So, this other garage more like a cold months. I can put this car in there. my wife's car or my truck out in the rage. only for one. That's day when you were up there. oodworking machines that I rtis on Western Avenue. I en I want to restore one of e the equipment out of way. what I'd like to do is have torage. during the winter nd keep it. without leaving yard. MRS. EGGLESTON-How many vehicles do you own? MR. BATEASE-Well. I have probably seven now. MR. TURNER-Seven vehicles that you have restored. that you own now? MR. BATEASE-I have restored now. MRS. EGGLESTON-Are they all licensed vehicles? MR. BATEASE-Yes. they are. 17 MRS. EGGLESTON-Seven vehicles?? MR. BATEASE-No. The seven aren't. I have two that I want to restore. okay? One is stored now over at West Side. Okay. The other one I have in my backyard. My wife's car and my pickup I like to keep in the garage attached to the house. I have the Model A stored in the back of the shop that you were looking at. and I want to put up this other building to store the other. it's a '46 Mercury Convertible. I showed it to ou. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. you did. your garage. It was eautiful. which you had in MR. BATEASE-Yes. I don't think I'm g to do many more. MR. PHILO-On that map that you have he e. I tried to get an answer out of you when I came over before. 0 that 10 foot setback. Why can't you come this way with it. MR. BATEASE-Well. this here I underst nd is legal in the Town of Queensbury. MR. TURNER-Yes. 10 foot he can. Tom. See. he can have it 10 foot from that rear line. MRS. EGGLESTON-Because it's Light Ind stry. for a third accessory use. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. PHILO-Well. it's not 60 by 40 any ay. MRS. EGGLESTON-No. MR. TURNER-No, but the principle's th same. MRS. EGGLESTON-I think the problem is. there's times when a lot of people would like three garages. I mean. I think you're lucky to have two. to be truthful with you. I mean. a lot of people would be happy to be able to have two garages. So, you're already over the limit here by a lot. and yet your sking for more. which seems to me to be a maximum relief. MR. BATEASE-Well. for the residentia part of it. there is 900 square feet. and I think that the 1 by 24. and the 24 by 24 garage. for the residential part of it. I think would come pretty close to the 900 square feet. within a ew feet. I don't know. four feet or something. MR. TURNER-Nine hundred and fifty one square feet. The existing garage. and the other big garage. 15 by 25. the two of them are 951. MRS. EGGLESTON-Well, how big is where the workshop is? You don't have the dimensions on here. MR. TURNER-Yes. he does. 15 by 15. MRS. EGGLESTON-No. I'm talking about the existing. to the left. over here. that big garage over there. right there. That's a big garage. MR. BATEASE-That's 24 by 48. and there's one room on the back end of that that's sealed off from the rest of it. It's where I keep the Model A Roadster. and that's about twelve by sixteen. JIM MARTIN. EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR MR. HARrrIN-Are you sure you're supposed to add the total of separate structures. that 900 square feet doesn't just apply to the 18 individual structure? HR. TURNER-They're allowed a 900 squa e foot garage. HR. HAR'rIN-Of garage space, not 900 p r structure? MR. 'I'URNER-Of garage space. That's all. HRS. EGGLESTON-So, the big one to the left is 1100 square feet. HR. TURNER-Yes, it's 1052. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes, well, 1152. HR. 'l'URNER-Yes. MRS. EGGLESTON-Then he's got the garag that hooks on to the house, which is. MR. TURNER-Yes, 24 by 24, and that's MR. MARTIN-Ted, I just want to ta e everybody through Garage/Private Parking, if we can tur to that, Page 17922. 119-7 in the Definitions. that It's HRS. EGGLESTON-Okay. HR. HARTIN-The last sentence of that definition, "No business, occupations or services for a profit sh 11 be conducted therein, in such garage", not garageI, "shall not exceed 900 square feet." I just want to make sure you carefull consider whether the 900 square feet applies to the use or to he structure. HR. PHILO-The way I interpret it is to the structure. Am I right? HR. HARTIN-That's for the Board to decide. MRS. EGGLESTON-But go under the Light Industry classification. MR. TURNER-A customary accessory use is incidental to a permitted use, but this is a preexisting, noncon orming, this is residential now, but it's light industrial n w. So, that makes ~t nonconforming. MR. SICARD-Mr. Batease, have you sold ny of these vehicles in the past, or many ot them? MR. BATEASE-Well, yes. intend to do this. I sold two. I'll soon be 68. I don't HR. SICARD-It's hard to make a determi ation. You're accumulating vehicles and they're for sale. HR. BATEASE-No. I'm not in business. This is a hobby. sold two, probably over a period of 15 years. I have HR. TURNER-Okay. Any further questio s of Mr. Batease? If not, I'll open the public hearing. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED NO COMMENT PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED MR. TURNER-Do you want to discuss it any further, people? MR. CARVIN-Well, I have a problem standpoint. I know it's a hobby, little bit ahead of practicality. I have a two car garage, and three with this, Ted, from a hardship and sometimes our hobbies get a I a so have an antique car, and automobiles, and I had to make 19 a decision as to which one to leave out. which I'm sure you're familiar with. and if I was to add car all the time and looked for garages. my whole backyard would be covered with garages. and if you're starting to deal in these types of cars. I guess you have to make a determination as to which one you want to leave on your property. and which ones have to be s ored at outside facilities. and you've got an existing garage. p us you've got an accessory structure. and to add another garage just for a hobby. I have a hard time with. MR. TURNER-Yes. I do. too. MRS. EGGLESTON-I agree with Fred. MR. BATEASE-This is probably true. I can see where you're coming from. but suppose you did decide that you'd like one more. maybe you had a child. or somebody that wou d like to go with you. MR. CARVIN-Go with me where? MR. BATEASE-To a car show. If I coul talk my wife into driving one. she could drive one and I could rive the other. and that's all we have now is two show cars. One f them I have in this 24 by 48 building. and the other one I'd like to put up this other structure to keep it stored in there u til the summer months. The rest of them I don't care about. I ould eliminate the rest of them. in the same si tuation and they store their HR. TURNER-Well. I know people that you're in. They're in the car busi vehicles off site. MR. BATEASE-They're in business. though. MR. TURNER-No. They don't have room or them. store them some place else. So. they have to MR. CARVIN-Well. I have no room on my property. I mean. I keep it. MR. BATEASE-Well. your property is a ittle different than mine. You live on Luzerne Road. MR. TURNER-And. Bob. I also know people that have them and keep them at home and keep their other cars utside. and put the antique car in the garage. Okay. Motion's in order. HR. BATEASE-Can I ask you a question? Suppose the time came that I didn't want to register these two vehicles and I left them out in the yard. MR. TURNER-One vehicle. one unregistered vehicle. MR. BATEASE-This is where I'm coming from. Suppose the time came that I wanted to do this. By having a other bUilding I could keep them under cover. both of them. l1R. TURNER-I know. I understand that but you've got to realize what you've got on the property now. ou're covering the property with garages. and I understand that's your hobby. and that's not the purpose of the Ordinance. The purpose of the Ordinance is to protect what is there. and I think it addresses the issue of garages very well. and I think if you g t into it as deep as you're into it. I think you're going to have to look for other storage ::~t:~TEASE_Well. I agree with you. an~ I said I would do this. I can appreciate where Mike is coming fro. to. I'm using this as an example. With his situation he's got over there. he's trying to comply with your Ordinances. and he ~ad this building. where he could put other cars in there that h1's not restoring. and keep 20 them out of the site of other people, sometimes you have to have two, three, or four junk cars there to get the parts, temporarily. MR. TURNER-I understand, but you also it too. If you live there, and that's comply with the rules in the residenti rules are there for, to protect the interests, but their interests also. MR. BATEASE-I understand. MR. TURNER-When they did the Ordinanc foot garages, residential zone, b everybody had a second car, and we kne and some people have four cars, but w garage was more than adequate. MR. BATEASE-I know what you're saying, else that's happened. When I put up didn't have to go for a variance, and changed the zoning so that you had occurred to me to come before the Bo before I got all this money tied u understand what I'm saying? an't have your cake and eat your residence. you have to 1 zone. and that's what the ther people. not just your over. they said 900 square cause everybody. we knew some people had three cars. thought a 900 square foot but I'll tell you something this 24 by 48 building. I I didn't know that you had o have this. and it never rd and find out. and see. in these cars. Do you MR. TURNER-But I have to tell you. in all fairness. that that was well advertised over the radio. It w s advertised in the paper, tha t the Zoning Ordinance was be ing hanged. There was publ ic hearings at the Queensbury school. So, we tried to alert everybody as to what was going on. I don't know how much fairer we could be than putting it in the paper. on the r dio. and so torth. We took the comments. We took the input. MR. BATEASE-Well. not really. I didn t quite understand why you went through there and zoned all that light industry in the first place. and I was against it. MR. TURNER-You should have come to those hearings and said you were against it. You should have come. lot of people did come to those hearings at the Queensbury scho 1. but if I lived in your neighborhood and it was residential. I wouldn't want somebody down the road with a garage your size. ov r 900 square feet. doing a hobby in their garage. working at night and everything else. MR. BATEASE-I don't work at night. MR. TURNER-I know. but some do. okay. Lets be fair about it. and the variance goes with the land. It doesn't go with you. MR. BATEASE-I understand this. and I wa opposed, at the time. that West Side would go in there. MR. TURNER-Well. we didn't change tha over there. was light industrial. We never changed that. I think that MR. MARTIN-Was this done as part of t e industrial park. next to Northern Distributing? MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. MR. MARTIN-That was just done a couple of years ago. MR. TURNER-Yes. that part of it. I MR. BATEASE-I don't know how long West bide was. they had a permit. originally. to have. I'm not against test Side. They're keeping they're yard nice. I MR. TURNER-They had a permit to have ~ yard there. 21 MR. CARVIN-Are we still looking for a motion. Ted? MR. TURNER-Yes. I am. MO'l'ION TO DENY USE VARIANCE NO. 10 Introduced by Fred Carvin who moved f Charles Sicard: ROBERT S. BATEASE. adoption. seconded by As the applicant hasn't shown a prac ical hardship. and if the accessory structure were to be granted. an undesirable change would be produced in the character of the n ighborhood and it would be detrimental to the nearby properties. and would not be in keeping wi th the welfare of the communi ty. he applicant has not shown that a reasonable return cannot be rea ized. Although it is zoned Light Industrial. the character of the eighborhood is residential. which by zoning makes the properties reexisting nonconforming. Duly adopted this 28th day of October. 992. by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Sicard. Mr. Philo. Hr. Carvin. Mrs. Eggleston. Mrs. Paling. Mr. Thomas. Mr. Turner NOES: NONE AREA VARIANCE NO. 110-1992 TYPE II W -1A RICHARD BROOME OWNER: HERBERT ROBERT TYRER BIRDSALL ROAD. GL'N LAKE FRONTAGE REMOVAL OF REAR SHED AND FOR CONSTRUCTION OF A SEC ND STORY EXTENDING ORIGINAL STRUCTURE 8 FT. TO THE REAR (REMOVAL 4 FT. OF BANK). (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) 'l'AX MAP NO. 40-1- 3 LOT SIZE: 0.12 ACRES SECTION 179-79(2). 179-60 E2 RICHARD BROOME. PRESENT STA1'I!' INPUT Notes from Staff. Area Variance No. 110-1992. Richard Broome. Meeting Date: October 28. 1992 "Propo ed project consists of: 1. Removal of a rear shed attached 0 existing single family structure. 2. Excavation of a 3 ft. by 29 ft. swath of the bank behind the existing house. 3. Construction of a 3 ft. by 3 in. by 29 ft. retaining wall in the excavation site. which will also act as a support for a proposed second sto y. 4. And construction of a second story. extending original structure eight (8) ft. to the rear. Conformance wi th Use/ Area Regula ions: Applicant is seeking relief from the Queensbury Zoning Ordinance Section 179-79A( 2) which states that no enlargement or rebuilding of a single family dwelling shall exceed 50 percent of the existing gross floor square footage. Existing structure is 928 sq. ft. and proposed structure will be 2.204 ft.. a 97 percent expan ion. Review Criteria: 1. Practical difficulty rests with the need to expand existing structure more than 50 percent in order to provide sufficient space for a year round residence. 2. The m'nimum variance is necessary to alleviate the specific practical ifficul ty and there is no other practical means for enlarging st ucture to meet the family's needs. 3. The variance will not be detrimental to other properties in the district as pro]ec is consistent with other homes in the area. 4. The project wi I have no effects on public facilities or services and the minimum variance is necessary to alleviate the specified practical difficulty. Staff Comments and Concerns: 1. After a site visit. s aff was concerned that the engineering and construction of the re aining wall be adequate for bank retention and support of the Srcond story. and that the excavation of the bank be conducted in such a manner that there be no net loss of existing plants or trees in the remaining bank. The staff is recommending that an engi eer be consulted by the applicant on this issue. 2. Septic i~nonconforming and 25 years old. After consulting with staff . n the Building Department regarding the septic issue. it was determined that if the present septic failed. there would be no at er conforming si te on the property for a new septic. and the 0 ly alternative would be a 22 l I I pumping station and a holding tank w ich would require periodic removal of waste material." MR. TURNER-Mr. Broome, we have one Ii tIe glitch here. Glen Lake is a Critical Environmental Area. This requires a full coordinated SEQRA Review. We'll appoint Lead A ency. It will go to the Planning Board, then you'll come b ck to this Board tor the variance. So, we'll make a motion to appoint the Planning Board as Lead Agency. You'll have to go to t em, at their meeting, when they put you on the agenda, and then 't will come back here after they get done with the review. MOTION TO MAKE THE PLANNING BOARD OF AREA VARIANCE NO. 110-1992 RIC Theodore Turner who moved for its ad Sicard: AGENCY FOR THE SE RA REVIEW ARD BROOME, Introduced by ption, seconded by Charles Duly adopted this 28th day of October, 1992, by the fOllowing vote: AYES: Mr. Philo, Mr. Carvin, Mrs. Eg leston, Mrs. Paling, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Sicard, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE lŒ. 'I'URNER-So, your application is g Board for the SEQRA Review, since it's Area. It's a coordinated review. It the application. If it comes back a n your application for the variance, but act on your application. MR. BROOME-Shouldn't I have done that to this group? Do I have to come to ing to go to the Planning in a Critical Environmental goes to them. They review gative dec, then we'll hear until that's done, we won't o begin with, before I came his group first', MR. TURNER-Not necessarily, no. We do it all the time. MR. BROOME-The timing is a problem, as 'm trying to purchase that. MR. TURNER-I understand that, but I wouldn't have made a difference. You'd still have to go to the Planning Board. MR. BROOME-Yes. I could have done th t last month, though. MR. TURNER-Well, no. If they'd have se t you here first, we'd have sent you to them anyway, and that's what they did. They sent you here tirst. We sent you back to them. MR. MARTIN-Please understand, this ap ears to be, the ZBA has a policy of having their environmental reviews conducted by the Planning Board, okay, and you're going to have to go through site plan review also with the Planning Board. If timing can be properly done, this can be taken care of next month, which I'm sure you're interested in. MR. BROOME-I could work with that. MR. MARTIN-If you can come in and see us, we can help set that up for you, okay, because I understand your concern about timing. MR. TURNER-Okay. (9:33 p.m.) AREA VARIANCE NO. 111-1992 TYPE II M~-5 THOMAS J. MCGOVERN FURLONG OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE 134 INqIANA AVENUE TO CONVERT SIX BEDROOM HOUSE (ONE FAMILY DWELLI'G) INTO A TWO l'AMILY, BEDROOM APARTMENTS. TAX MAP NO. 127-11!-1 LOT SIZE: 7,000 SQ. SECTION 179-18 DAN THE TWO l'T. I DEBORAH MCGOVERN, 'THOMAS MCGOVERN, DANI FURLONG ( 9: 33 p. m. ) STAl'F INPUT 23 I- - --------------------- Notes from Staff. Area Variance No.1 1-1992. Thomas J. McGovern. Dan fur long. Bee ting Date: Octobe 28. 1992 "Appl icant is proposing to convert a six (6) bedroom single family dwelling into a two (2) family. two (2) bedroom p r unit dwelling. Existing structure is located in a mUltifamily residential zone and meets the front. side and rear yard setbac s. Area and lot size are preexisting and nonconforming. onformance with use/area regulations: Applicant is seeking an Area Variance from the Queensbury Zoning Ordinance. Section 1 9-18C which requires lØ.ØØØ sq. ft. minimum land area for a two (~) family dwelling (or 5.ØØØ sq. ft. for one (1) dwelling unit within zone). Existing land area is 6.ØØØ sq. ft. and therefore applica t is seeking relief of 4.ØØØ sq. ft. Review Criteria: Practical difficulty rests with the fact that although the property is zoned or multifamily structures. this property which is preexisting and nonconforming does not meet the minimum land area required for a t 0 (2) family residence. The minimum variance is necessary for th applicant to utilize the existing structure as permitted and no ther option is available to exercise permitted use. The variance would not be detrimental to area or neighborhood as the propose change is permitted and consistent with the neighborhood. As this proposed project would reduce the number of bedrooms from s' x (6) to four (4) for the entire structure. there is an inherent ossibility in the reduction of use of public facilities and or ser ices and the minimum relief is necessary to alleviate the specified pl:actical difficulty. Staff Comments: Applicant has enclosed a letter expressing their desire to convert this structure to a two (2) family residence in order to "provide decent affordable ho sing" for people in the area and are willing to install a new septic system which could easily handle two (2) families. They also sta ed that they are installing an hour-fire divider between floors as the code requires." MRS. MCGOVERN-Deborah McGovern. I have here a petition that we had people sign in the area. that they have no objection. and it covers houses on Indiana Avenue. four houses up on each side of Indiana. and four houses down on each side of ndiana Avenue. and it also includes the people on South Avenue. w ich are right directly near us. These are some pictures of the ouse. to give you a better idea. HR. TURNER-Yes. Everybody looked at it. HRS. HCGOVERN-It's actually an eight bedroom house. not a six. These are just some pictures of other laces in the area that have apartments over their garages. I'd like to add also that their property sizes do not fit the regulat ons also. They are there. I believe they got variances for it. That's just a business. MR. TURNER-Who owns this little building right here. do you know? MR. HCGOVERN-That goes with the property. MR. TURNER-That goes with your proper y? got on your plan. right? That's the shed you've MR. MCGOVERN-I think you told me. thou h. the shed is not going to be used by the tenants. that you're go'ng to use it for storage of materials? So. actually the property ill have two uses. It will have a two family house and it will als serve as a distribution or storage center for your? HRS. HCGOVERN-We'll store our stuff. I I HRS. EGGLESTON-But you're not going toi live there. right? ¡ MRS. MCGOVERN-We don't have a garage a~ our house. to store our stuff. So. we're going I MR. MCGOVERN-Like. if we pick up a c~uPle of hot water heaters. We'll put them in there. 24 MRS. MCGOVERN-Right. We don't sell th m or anything. We keep them tor our personal use. MRS. EGGLESTON-No. I didn't mean you sell them. but you have two uses to the property. You're going to have a two family dwelling. and you're also going to have a sto age building. for whatever purposes. that does not go with the two family dwelling. Am I right', MRS. MCGOVERN-There will be a fence pu up. so they don't feel they have to use that. MR. MCGOVERN-We wouldn't want to tear it down. MRS. EGGLESTON-Well. no. but it could become a garage for the two family. MR. MCGOVERN-I believe it was a store at one time. HR. TURNER-Yes. You're right. HRS. EGGLESTON-When they say the exis ing land area. 6.000 square feet. they are considering where the storage bui lding is. am 1 right? So. how much of the land would ou consider that comprises? MRS. MCGOVERN-That storage bUilding? ~ MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. and the land. bec use you're going to have to retain the front going into it. or what ver. What part of the land do you figure. yard wise. will actually pertain to the two story. two family dwelling? MR. MCGOVERN-Well. there's a picture here. and there's also the master plan. MRS. EGGLESTON-I'm asking you how much ard space or parking space? MRS. MCGOVERN-Parking space for HRS. EGGLESTON-No. I want to separa e the two things. because you're going to have two uses on the roperty. in my mind. maybe the others don't agree. To me. it's two uses. You're going to retain part of it and use it for you own storage purposes. and you're also going to have a two fam ly rental dwelling on the property. So. you have two uses of the property. As opposed to. say. the building will be a garage fo the rental property. So. then it would all be one fluent use. but you're using it in two different directions. HRS. HCGOVERN-It is already a storag building. and we're just going to store Qg£ stuff in it. I MR. HCGOVERN-You still have enough property to park an adequate number of vehicles without utilizing that other space that's in front of the store. the so called storage building. HRS. EGGLESTON-Do you see what I'm saying. Ted? MR. TURNER-I know what you're saying. HR. PHILO-Could I say something on t!hat. I see what Joyce is saying. and I'm trying to help these p~ople. too. I looked at the site. There's a garage back there. 24 by 24 garage. and there's parking area in the front. If she j~st said that was a storage area and the rest of the property was !parking for your building. I , HRS. HCGOVERN-Well. that's what it is!. As far as the building. going into the bui lding and parking or! anything. it would ] ust be to pick something up and take it out olf there. 25 MR. PHILO-That parking lot would be fJr the house? MRS. MCGOVERN-It's for the house. Ye MR. PHILO-I understand what they're sa ing. In other words, there wouldn't even have to be two uses, th t building. The parking in front of that would be added to tha building, there would be nothing but 24 by 24 cut off that pro erty for storage. The rest of that parking area would all go to he house, right? ¡ I MRS. MCGOVERN-It's all for the tenant~. It would only be pulling to the door, like I say, take somethi1g out and pullout. MR. TURNER-This is the building you' rei talking about, the storage? I You said you I were going to put a fence ¡ HRS. MCGOVERN-Just on the side here, j,st more or less so they know that we're going to be using it. 0 you understand what I'm saying? HR. TURNER-Yes, but which way is the ~ence coming, this way? MRS. MCGOVERN-Yes. HR. 'I'URNER-AIl r igh t. where? MRS. MCGOVERN-No. It's Just going to go right along the edge ot this house, this storage here. HRS. EGGLESTON-Towards the road, though? MRS. MCGOVERN-Towards the road. I MRS. EGGLESTON-That's what he's aSkinl you, to separate the shed from the? 1 MRS. MCGOVERN-Yes, to separate, so th y don't feel they have any use of it. MR. TURNER-Where are the tenants going to park? HRS. HCGOVERN-Okay. The upstairs w 11 be parking here. The downstairs will be parking on the south side of the house. MRS. EGGLESTON-See, no parking in front of the shed. MRS. MCGOVERN-Yes, there is parking i front of the shed. This area right here is in front of the shed. ¡ MRS. EGGLES'I'ON-But there's going to bel a fence here. MRS. MCGOVERN-It's not going all the W~y through to the road. HRS. EGGLES'l'ON - It's go ing to come of this corner, towards the road. I HRS. HCGÜVERN-No. It's not going to the parking lot. MR. PHILO-That house is next door, Joy~e. That's why you're, that is not the storage area. MR. TURNER-Is the fence going this wa~, or is it going this way? MRS. MCGOVERN-The fence, let me see, he~e's the house. This is the parking lot. The fence is just going ~o come just right to here. MR. TURNER-Is it going to go from the þack of the garage? I , MRS. MCGOVERN-Yes, from here to here, land later on down the road, it's not even a definite type thing. 26 -,--- MR. TURNER-It's going to terminate th're. right~ MRS. MCGOVERN-Right. I I MR. TURNER-All right. Then one car's Igoing to park here. MRS. MCGOVERN-Right. one or two. whattver they have. if it's two people. they want to have two cars. a d then the others will come in trom this way. 'l'here is a bush th re that's going to have to come out. They'll be parking on thatl side of the house. So you don't have a big parking lot. MR. PHILO-The parking area in front oflthat storage area is usable by the tenants? I HRS. HCGOVERN-Right. It's definitel for their use. The only thing we will be doing is putting som stuff in the building. HRS. MCGOVERN-The fence is just like I say. to block the dogs. and then one on. and we'll. maybe or may e not. We really haven't decided that much yet. One on the 0 her side just to block the building. I MR. ~HILO-That fence is going over he~e. then? HRS. HCGOVERN-Actually. there's two p'eces. One will go to edge of this building. to block the d gs so it doesn't scare tenants. because like I say. they're retty vicious looking. other will go over here. So. more or ess. it's blocking the ot the building to the tenants. T ey' re not looking at building. the the The site the MR. PHILO-How high is this fence going to be here? HRS. MCGOVERN-We really haven't even ~ecided that yet. HRS. RUTHSCHILD-Excuse me. Ted. When I they put their application in. they never mentioned a fence. Oth1rwise. the Staff would have made sure that it was in compliance. I I HR. TURNER-Yes. I MR. HCGOVERN-That was an afterthought. HRS. MCGOVERN-Yes. that was an aftert~OU9ht. and like I say. it's nothing that's decided. the he ight is Ide fini te. We just figured. because of the dogs. and here. Just kind of block the building. HR. TURNER-Here's the storage bUildilng. Here's South Avenue. She's going to put the fence from the ijack of the building on this side. to the front of the building on t~~s side. Then you're going to put another fence over here. correclt~ HRS. MCGOVERN-Yes. Like I say. so the uilding is not. It's going to go right next to this building. not n top of it. next to it. to this point. because there's dogs right ere. okay. and then on this side. we thought. like I say. it was an afterthought. We're not. on this side. Just to kind of block the building. so the tenants. In other words. by the fence being right here to the corner. they know that that's not for their use. I MR. TURNER-Okay. You're isolating thel storage building':' MRS. HCGOVERN-Right. more or less. MR. TURNER-All right. house material that correct:' This storage buillding is going to be used to you use on your ¡ renovation jobs. Is that HRS. MCGOVERN-That's extra stutf. We buy stutf when it's on sale. 27 and we don't have a garage on our ownl home, and neither does Mr. furlong, and we felt this would be a gteat place to put our stuff. The apartments are plenty big enough. I They have plenty of closet space for storage. I I MRS. EGGLESTON-Ted, we've got to clea~ one issue here, first. If you'll excuse me. None of these add ~p, these side. MRS. HCG0VERN-I did those. It's my f~rst time. MRS. EGGLESTON-Twenty, forty seven, th~s adds up to sixty five, and it's only sixty. They don't add up, ~ny ot the dimensions. I MR. TURNER-You've got 100 feet here, ~nd you've got 30 there, and you've got 34.9 there. : MRS. EGGLESTON-You've got something w~ong with the whole layout. MR. CARVIN-Thirty is ninety five, so tJere's five feet between the shed and the house. I I I I I MRS. MCGOVERN-No. When I did it, I mjasured right to, like, the edge of the dirt of the road, not the lacktop, to the dirt, and I measured to the siding of the house, ot to the actual. This is the one that, it was submitted for the septic variance, which was supposed to be okayed two days before Ithey tabled it for this. I went pretty much, I thought, by his, aqd then I measured myself. MR. TURNER-No dimension on the house Jize. I I HRS. HCGOVERN-The house I did myself. I' I went trom one corner or. the outside to the other corner of the, outside. MRS. EGGLESTON-This can't be right. MR. TURNER-Yes, but you have a pin there, and you have a pin over here some place. One here and one here, the 100 feet goes to here, correct'i MRS. HCGOVERN-Right, to just the other ~ide of the storage building there. I I I I HR. '¡'URNER-AII r:ight. So you've got, from there to there is 30 teet, and the house is 34.9. . So, that makes 64.9, right to there. All right, this building is 30 feet. So, that's 94.9. So, that leaves five teet between here and here. Something's not right. HRS. HCGOVERN-There's more than five fleet. So, I didn't measure. Like I say, I'm no't a professional, bU,t. HR. TURNER-That would be five feet PI~S or minus. I HR. PHILO-From this here? I didn't g,t that, 20 feet from here, because I checked it. This here is oklay. I MR. TURNER-Yes, but she's got 65 feettwo inches, and she's only got 60 feet here. I I MRS. EGGLESTON-Ted, normally we table these things until they get their maps right. HR. 'rURNER-Yes. HRS. EGGLES'rON-I'm sorry to do that to, you, but it's hard to. HR. TURNER-Yes. You've got to get us t~e right dimensions, because we've got to, if there's any relief so~ght any place, we've got to know where it is. We've got to be exact. You can't just rough sketch them out. 28 - ,----- MRS. MCGOVERN-Well. we didn't. We me~sured. That's what we got. I MR, TURNER-You didn't measure, someth~ng'S not right, HRS. HCGOVERN-Haybe we didn't measure !from the right parts of the building. I I I Mk. TURNER-Don't measure trom the roadi· Heasure from your property line. from these pins. all right. 'et a line across here and measure it from there to there. Meas re the width of the house. Get the distance between here and here.1 get the dimensions of this. forty eight and thirty. you don't ha~e this dimension this way. There's J8 feet right there. I MRS. EGGLESTON-See. and our problem it. if we were to grant this and give the variance. we say. like. so many teet from here to here. and we have to be exact in that. 1 HRS. HCGOVERN-Well. could we continue 1 on and give you the exact measurements. that being one of the co,tingencies or something? 1 mean. we have waited a long time. I ! ! HRS. EGGLESTON-I know. Well. we've ~Old people. and it says in your application to make sure all you~ criteria is right. because we've run into problems with this betqre. MR. SICARD-Teddy. don't you think we d1u9ht to have some type of a Tax Hap or survey map. , MRS. EGGLESTON-That's what we're saYi9g. to table it until we get the correct dimensions. MR. TURNER-Because nothing adds up. HR. SICARD-'l'he dimensions don't add up. excess. MR. TURNER-When did you buy the propeJty? ! MRS. HCGOVERN-We Just bought it in seJtember. ! MRS. EGGLESTON-Did you have a survey Jone with it? I I Either way. it's 1.n MRS. HCGOVERN-No. because it was a foreþlosure house. We bought it I as 1.s. ! ! I MRS. EGGLESTON-You mean. just last month you bought it? Well. you haven't been waiting all that long. D~ you see where our problem is. though? We have to have the dimens~ons. We have to be able to say. l1.ke. 10 teet from the south Sire line. 20 feet from this line. So. you've got to be exact in your measurement. I'm not trying to be difficult. ! MR. TURNER-That's what you really nee~ is the survey. MRS. MCGOVERN-Where do I get somethinglike that. up here? it when Jou bought the property. I MR. TURNER-You must have got ! MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. Didn't you get a ~urvey? You wouldn't buy it without a survey. HRS. HCGüVERN-We didn't have a survey., no. MRS. EGGLESTON-Is it tinanced. Is it ~ortgagedi MRS. MCGOVERN-No. It's not mortgaged through the bank. but we did borrow the money from the bank. HRS. EGGLESTON-And they didn't require! a? 29 HkS. HCGOVERN-No. because it's not mlortgaged through them. borrowed the money. but it wasn't speqifically. I I We MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. I Hk. TURNER-We 11, what I was sugges t~ng, why don't you get the measurements off the pins that you've got there and get the correct measurements, get the correct measu ements of the house, this distance here, this distance here. the~e, and this here, and bring us back the correct measurements, but wlhen you do them, they've got . I to add up. so they come out w~ th what Iyou' ve got here. {<,IRS. HCGOVERN-Could 1 ask, the measulements on. the house, that would be the toundat~on, that I Shoul~be measur~ngi I I1RS. EGGLES'fON-Yes, and the footage ~etween that house and this building. you need all that type of thipg. Is the septic on there. 'l'ed? We al so need the septic, but we Ineed it placed on the lot. MRS. MCGOVERN-Well, I put where the tJnk is located on the lot. I I MRS. EGGLESTON-Okay, but how many feet is that from the house, and that type of thing. HR. TURNEk-Yes. I MRS. MCGOVERN-You have to tell all th~t, I MHS. MCGOVERN-This is kind of new to u$. this before. too? We've never been through HRS. EGGLESTON-I know it. HRS. MCGOVERN-I'm no artist. MR. MARTIN-Ted, you want to be sure to hell her to measure from the ~ line, not the foundation. MH. TURNER-Right. MR. MARTIN-You always measure from the eave line, not the foundation. MRS. EGGLESTON-Okay. MR. TURNER-Not the foundation, structure. that counts as part of the I I I MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes, you're right. Hk. HAWl' IN -So, if your eave extends.1 a exterior wall of the building, then t~at building. the eave, not the foundationl. foot or two beyond the is the dimension of the MR. TURNER-You're all right with the house. Yes. seþtic. It's 20 feet from the I I bel sufficient? MkS. MCGOVERN-Okay. So, that would HR. 'l'URNER-'fhat's sufficient, but I get the rest of these I measurements. because we can't do anything tor you until you do. Okay. We'll continue on with the public hearing, so we can get all the input from the neighbors. Do you h~ve anything else to add, at this point? HRS. EGGLESTON-I'll ask one more quesltion. You're going to say this is affordable housing. What will ~he rents be, since that, to me, affordable housing means? HR. MCGOVERN-Four hundred an apartmentl. 30 MRS. EGGLESTON-Four hundred ~or each partmenti HRS. MCGOVERN-Four hundred bedrooms each. dining room. a month. two large apartments. living ro m. kitchen. two MRS. EGGLESTON-Four hundred plus util ties. is that right? MRS. MCGOVERN-Yes. MR. CARVIN-In the upstairs apartmen . are you planning to put anymore windows in? MRS. MCGOVERN-We have brand new w'ndows that are coming in tomorrow. HR. MCGOVERN-They said the lighting wa modify it. We had to leave it exactl from Albany. They're supposed to com sufficient. but we couldn't like that. So. we ordered in Friday. MR. CARVIN-Because I know. I'm not sure if my directions are right. but it would probably be the north; s uth side. I think there's only one window. MR. MCGOVERN-One side has one window. MRS. MCGOVERN-But actually. each room as at least one window. the way the apartment is to be made. HR. PHILO-So. what's the problem with this. Just the dimensions? MR. TURNER-The dimensions. There's a application. and they've got to Otherwise. we're not going to hear it we've got to know what the measurem relief that they need. hecklist on the back of the dhere to the checklist. Not to be difficult. but nts are to grant them the MRS. EGGLESTON-If you say seven feet from the side line. you've got to know that's the right. MRS. MCGOVERN-I'd just like to say one ore thing. There is vacant land. which I'm sure you're aware of. next to us. We did. so we wouldn't have to come for the variance. find out who the owner was. There is a sign now. but there was not when we called him. We got his name and I called him. and I expl ined to him the situation. We wanted to make a two family. we w re short some footage. and could we buy a small piece from him. he amount we need. about 50 foot from him. and it's a Mr. Nelson. a d he said that he owns four lots there. 30 by 85. and he wants to sell them as one whole lot. and could not possibl y. You know. h wishes us luck. but he's sorry. It would be detrimental to h m to sell us one of those lots. because then it would be hard to ake a sale. but we did try. MRS. EGGLESTON-But you made the effort. HR. TURNER-All right. hearing. Thank you. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED JEAN HOONEY That's good. Now I' 11 open the public HRS. HOONEY-F irst of all. we want t cla.r:ify. This is not a personal vendetta in any way. shape. or form. Hy name is Jean Hooney. I reside on the corner of Indiana and Central Avenue. MRS. EGGLESTON-Is that kitty corner from this? HRS. HOONEY-No. It's one qlock down. within that 500 feet. ML Turner. you yourself said earlier that that area has picked itself up and has turned around. 31 MR. TURNER-Yes, a lot. --- MRS. MOONEY-A long time ago it wasn' pretty, and all of us that are here have lived there for a long t me. We don't want to see it slip backwards, and I just think tha that house housed a lovely tami ly for a long, long time. They 11 sti 11 1 i ve right in the immediate area, and I just don't thi k, that's a lot of activity for that little corner. I mean, y u're talking two diffel:ent tamilies, and a house on a lot that's ot big enough to accommodate the septic it needs. Mrs. McGovern said that they were going to use that store, or what used to be a s ore, as a storage facility. For what? I don't have a garage. I don't need another bUilding to store. I mean, what are they going to put in there? They own a lot of other rental property. Is t is going to be the storage station for everything else? MR. TURNER-That was my question. said no. MRS. MOONEY-What are they going I a ked her that question. She in there? MRS. EGGLESTON-She said they were goin to buy stuff on sale, as it came along, and they would keep suppli s in there, for their other places. MRS. MOONEY-So, it is a storage faci ity for their other rental units. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. MRS. MOONEY-Which makes it two uses. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. MRS. MOONEY-It's not Just one, but tw MR. TURNER-Okay, but if she forgoes t MRS. MOONEY-Then is that separate dwel ing, later on, are we going to have to contend with another one f mily going in there? MR. TURNER-It can stay there. She ca use it for any use thats accessory to the principal dwelling. MRS. MOONEY-I understand that, but what I'm asking is, down the road, are we going to be faced with a other variance because they want to convert that to a one family? MR. TURNER-No. I don't think that would ever make the Board. It might come here, but it'll never get approved. HRS. HOONEY-I don't even know how this could even be approved with a clear conscience. If this was a fa ily who needed to rent the other half of that house, because of ainancial hardship, and they needed, get your family together and make the bills, that kind of thing, I could understand it. These pe pIe don't live in the Town. They don't live in our area at all, and I just don't understand how we, as landowners and taxpayers in tha area, should be subject to their commercialism. MR. TURNER-Well, let me say this. approached the owner. She sa~d that she tried to, she I i MRS. MOONEY-The owner's here. He'll speak to that. MR. TURNER-She approached the owner a~d he said, no, he wants to sell them all off. Maybe she can't i1crease the size of the lot. If she can't increase the size of the lot. MR. MOONEY-Then rent it as a one famil. If they're going to rent i i I i 32 two apartments at S400 a month. 0 two different families. certainly a one bedroom. a one family. eight bedroom house ought to turn the same type of revenue. and if hat's the case. then there's no need for an easement. and we wouldn't have any right being here at all. First of all. the paperwork says six bedroom. She said eight. --- MRS. MCGOVERN-There is eight. two down. There's six bedrooms upstairs and MRS. MOONEY-Okay. So. that type of ho e really ought to turn some great revenue to a big family. MR. SICARD-You'd probably have more people there with that kind of a confl.guration. MRS. MOONEY-You probably would. You robably would. but the fact still remains. they're requesting some type of relief from the Town Board. which is an imposition on us. I think. in my own personal opinion. that a two family decreases the property value in OUt" area. There are a couple of other tw families. I mean. you've been up ther"e. Obviously. you know where they are. 'l'hey' re beautiful. but they're brand new home on great big lots in areas that were absolute dumps before. MR. TURNER-What's this house right her Indiana Avenue? It's got an apartmen Are you familiar with it. up over the garage. MR~. MOONEY-Does anybody inhabit that apartment? MR. TURNER-I don't know. but it's lis MRS. MOONEY-It cannot be used. that apartment in without. I don't want to say a variance. becaus I don't know if that's the case at all. but that apar:tment is n t in use. No one lives up there. MR. SICARD-It doesn't have any water. I don't think. plumbing in that apartment. There's no HRS. HCGOVERN-Their son is living th reo and read the for sale article. from the paper. Sunday's paper. MRS. EGGLESTON-May I clarify how many edrooms each of these units will havEd HRS. MCGOVERN-Two bedrooms each. We'l be putting it in half. the amount of bedrooms. HRS. EGGLESTON-Okay. MR. PHILO-Is there three apartments there. then? MRS. MCGOVERN-Two. two bedroom apartments. MRS. PHILO-How do you get eight bedrooms. then allot a sudden back to two. MR. MCGOVERN-Existing now. there's si bedrooms upstairs and two down. plus a living room. dining room. kitchen. and like a foyer. I t will be converted. if we have t e permission. to two. two bedroom apartments. I I I ~ight bedroom. they destroy I I HR. MCGOVERN-It you rent it out as an it. I MRS. MCGOVERN-Not only that. you have m~re cars. more children. and as she said. for people to a~to~d t~ rent it and pay heat. you're going to have more than one tam1.1y 1.n that house. I i I 33 HR. TURNER-Let her finish. HRS. HOONEY-I ) ust think for them reliel. be granted some kind of MR. TURNER-You need relief from the de sity requirement. They have to have 10. øøø square feet. and they ve only got 6. øøø. That's what it's all about. Duplexes are al owed there. MRS. MOONEY-They are allowed? HR. TURNER-They are allowed. MRS. MOONEY-Okay. Where is the fence. She mentioned a fence. MR. PHILO-I think they said they were going to put one in if they did get it. MRS. MOONEY-Yes. I just wondered whe e it was going to be. MR. TURNER-Do you want to come forwa d. and I'll show you where it's going to be. 'l'he storage bui ding. she's talking about putting the fence right there. MRS. MOONEY-Right across the front? MR. TURNER-No. on the side. and one 0 this side. MRS. MOONEY-That separates it from th trailer on this side. and the rental unit here? HR. TURNER-Yes. HRS. MOONEY-She also made a comment about the septic that was supposed to be approved. and that's quote. Where did she get that fl-om~' MR. MCGOVERN-$36ØØ is the price for the septic going in. MR. TURNER-But it isn't in. Queensbury septic. MRS. MCGOVERN-The septic has not been put in. We had to go for a septic variance. MR. TURNER-Okay. MRS. MCGOVERN-And it was tabled on this. MR. TURNER-Okay. It was tabled prior to this approval. HRS. HOONEY-But your commen twas. supposed to be approved. Did someone tell you thati MR. TURNER-No. Nothing's for sure. HR. FURLONG-She ) ust said that we're not taxpayers. taxpayers in Queensbury. We are MRS. HOONEY-I was not implying that you were not taxpayers in the Town of Queensbury. I did not say that. I said. we. as taxpayers, us. We live in the immediate area. e have a right to voice an opinion because,theY're requesting reltef. Our opinion is that it is not a good ~dea for our area. If! the lot was b~g enough to support that kind of unit. it WO~ld have been no problem whatsoever. but it is not. and I canno see wh~re it's a financial hardship for them now. I'm sorry that they d~dn't know about the footage density requirement. or Whatefer it is that you call it before they bought the house. but ignorance is not bliss. They bought it, and now they own it. and if hey're going to get relief. then we would like to see why, or be pI' ven that there is a reason. I I I I I ! 34 ---T---------- a real reason. Like I said, i f i~ was something that they themselves were going to live in, an~ needed to rent the other side, as financial support, fine, but they don't live in the Town ot Queensbury. It's very hard to sup rvise property when you're not in the immedJ.ate area. I don t think that's an unfair statement. I'm not saying they don't p y attention to their rental uni ts. I'm not implying that whats ever. All I'm saying is, things go on when you're not there, and it's completely out of your control, and in today's day, you jus can't walk up to a family with children and say, you've done so ething wrong and you've got to get out. It doesn't happen that w y. It's a long, expensive, lengthy process. and I just. I don't t ink we should be subject to it anymore. MH. 'l'URNER-Any questions? opposed? Who else wants to be heard that's BUB NELSON HR. NELSON-Ted, Charlie, Joyce, Tom adjoining lot next to this. Bob Nelson. I own the MR. SICAHD-ls that on Indiana? MR. NELSON-It's on Indiana, Charlie. MR. SICARD-To the east? Hk. NELSON-To the east. right, Charliet There's not enough room on that lot to park those cars, with the p esent building that they've got there, if the cars are going to 0 with this place. and the septic system. and for them to buy a sm II from me, I can't cut the property up, because if I cut it up, rhen I've got to come for a subdivision from you people, and then I can't sell it to somebody else. MR. TURNER-You can't make yours less conforming, I can tell you that. MR. NELSON-That's right. HR. PHILO-How big are your lots now, Bob? HR. NELSON-There's four 30 foot lots there. MR. TURNER-Four 30 by 85's. or 2650 square feet. MR. NELSON-Well, they're supposed to be 30 by 100. MR. TURNER-I thought you said 85? MR. NELSON-Somebody else said 85. MR. TURNER-Okay. 30 by 1001 Hie NELSON-Yes. MR. SICARD-Would that accommodate a ile home? MH. NELSON-Yes, it would accommodate Town of Queensbury. , but with the laws in the MR. SICARD-For that section. HR. NELSON-I believe if we have 5,000 square feet, we're allowed ~,000 square feet for a mobile home. MR. TURNER-Sixty five hundred. MR. NELSON-Sixty five hundred? 35 HR. 'I'URNt.:R- 'ies. MR. NELSON-It would almost accommodat two. but then I'd have to apply for a variance for two. but I'd rather sell it as an entire deed. When they laid those lots out. it was fine for then. but not tor now. because when we put sewer in up there. there's no problems. I MR. TURNER-Well. don't look for that 40r a long time. i MR. PHILO-Is that 90 by 100. then. tha~ lot. that package you have? I HR. NELSON-One hundred and twenty by 0 e hundred. Twelve thousand square feet. I think. Parking is a big. see. Mr. Dean used to have the store. when he lived next door he e. at the house there. for years. He used to have to park on me. and I allowed this. I mean. Hr. Dean was the re be fore I was. b t I don't need to get in arguments with tenants. These people robably mean well. but they cannot control the people that are liv'ng in the house. that would be. As a matter ot fact. 1 don't bel~~ve they did it. but they've already cut brush and thrown it overl on the lot now as it is. Somebody has. I MR. TURNER-All right. Any questions o~ Mr. Nelson from anybody? I MR. PHILO-You'd be willing to sell the~ the whole package? I I ¡ I I I MR. TURNER-Anyone else wish to be hea~d that's opposed? i I i MR. NELSON-Right. PETE SHITH MR. SMITH-My name is Pete Smith. the other house. 1+. at Ohio Avenue. next to MR. TURNER-That they own? HR. SHITH-Yes. MR. TURNER-Okay. HR. SHITH-1:'or one thing. they didn' t dO~anything to that house when they bought it anyway. except maybe ins de. but outside they didn't touch it. It was like that when they ought it. Secondly. I want to know. d~d the Building Department give them permission already to change over to two family? HR. TURNER-No. MRS. MCGüVERN-We have not. MR. SHITH-You' re swi tching it over alrleady. for a two family. I HR. TURNER-They'll never get an occupa~cy permit unless they get a variance. ! i MR. SMITH-I'm just saying. they have bJen working on a two family. You can't tell me you haven't. becausel you have. I I HR. SMITH-I can do what I want to the ~pstairs. HR. TURNER-He can work on it. all righ~. ! HR. SHI'rH-Yes. HR. '¡'URNER-But he can't occupy it as ¡he proposes here unless he gets a variance. ¡ MR. SMITH-Right. I understand. The m&in thing we don't want this 36 house to do, if you guys ever lived up bur way, we've got a trailer court here, and a trailer court here. I rrhere are so many kids up there, like fleas. On the corner Œere I live, at night, an average of 30 kids are up there pI ying. I Just left there tonight, there's over 10 kids on the corner, when I left to come up here at seven o'clock tonight. We dontt need anymore kids up that way. Plus these people rented that houlse next to me to, the people that live down near the Boulevard now. I MR. MCGOVERN-The black gentleman, a ve~eran, who's 70 years old. I MR. SMITH-I'm not knocking him. List9n to what I'm trying to say to you. It's a two bedroom house. ,Eventually, there was four people living in there. Then a littlle while later, there were eight pe.oPle living there. I m.ean, tl0 bedroom and eight people( Like they said, they do not have any c ntrol of that. They're not living there. They probably didn't ev n know about that, but they do not have control of that. They do 10t live here. They live in W il ton. 'l'here' s an absentee landlord.1 I I MR. TURNER-Well, that's true of a lot o~ people. only fit them. That fits a lot of pe4Ple. I MR. SMITH-I know. I'm Just saying. pefSOnally, I people. I've talked to them once, whenl they first next to me, but that's about it right ¡there. That doesn't Just don't know these bought the house I HR. 'rURNER-Okay. Anyone else opposed?¡ Okay. Hr. HcGovern. HR. HCGOVERN-I wish I could remember a~l these remarks that people had to say. I could give you an an$wer to everyone of them. E'irst of all, JOean Mooney. We bougrt her house, her and her h.U. sband's house. They live next door ~o Hr. Smith for a number ot years. They were good friends. The~ moved to the back street. They went for a variance. They got a ~rimming pool. They walk out their door, there's a swimming pool. ,as that a necessity? We've got pictures of that. ¡ I HR. TURNER-Yes, I know. HRS. MCGOVERN-Her lot was not big endugh for the mobile home to begin with, then the pool is right out~ide the back step, and that is not a hardship for a pool. I wish II could have a pool. That is a luxury, and she got that variance ~oo. Hrs. Hooney also sold this house on Ohio to us, two years þgo, knowing it would be a rental. She had no objection, when t.he money was going in her: pocket. HRS. HOONEY-Because it's a sinqle familv dwellinq. , , I HRS. MCGOVERN-Single family does not ~ave anything to do with it. MRS. MOONEY-Haybe not for you. I MRS. MCGOVERN-Mr. Smith was very frienÅlY. He used to waive to us at all times, until we rented to a mixJd couple. Now, I must tell you. which wouldn't really have made ~ difference because they're I people, too. The woman came with twol girls. I did not see the husband. When it came time to pay aqd move in, the husband was black, 10 years old, served his Count~y in the war, as a veteran, and a very nice man. They are spotless! people, and pay the rent on time, and very nice people. Hr. Smith has not spoken to us or waived to us since they moved in that ~rea. MR. TURNER-Okay. MRS. MCGOVERN-That is what this is all about. Mr. Smith has gone around the neighborhood, and said, we're not for this variance, and gathered all these people on a personal thing. 3J MR. TURNER-We're not concerned with tHat. HR. HCGOVERN-This Hr. Smith was talkin~ about taking a two bedroom, and having all these people living there. Now, if I had known it, 1 would have gone down and straightered them out. I mean, I'm paying the tax on the water. I'm notl g01ng to have my place run righ t down. So, when we found out ~here was more than enough people there, we moved them down to t~e Boulevard. HRS. HCGOVERN-To a larger home that wd have. ! ¡ MR. HCGOVERN-And they really don't ha~e any next door neighbors. There's a fence on one side, a six todter, and there's an old guy , on the other side, and they've lived ~here all their lives. They , don't bother anybody. . MRS. MCGOVERN-From our pictures you c~n see, we do everything we can to keep our place as nice, and we are not a detriment to any area of any of our homes. HR. TURNER-Okay. Thank you. MR. FURLONG-Can I just say one thing? I'm Mr. Furlong. The lady Just said a minute ago about eight ~edrooms rented out as one house. One man is yelling about kids!on the block. Who are you going to rent an eight bedroom out, unliess a man has 10 or 12 kids, or they're going to bring in people a~d rent rooms out, a rooming house. Do you know what I'm sayingi. One man's yelling that there's too many kids up there. One', telling us, if you have a two family, you're going to have two Øifferent families, but yet there's too many kids, and there's eight rooms. Where are you going to put eight rooms? What are ~ou going to get for eight rooms anyway'? ! ! MR. MCGOVERN-It we knew that we had t$ go for a var1ance for the outside of that property, we wouldn't ~e sitting here. HR. TURNER-Okay. to. 'I'hank you. ¡ Get your ~easurements. Get them back MRS. EGGLESTON-I'd like them, too, Ted~ to think about, this is my own, personal, observation, but 1 do ~ave a vote, so I'm going to be looking at maybe the possibility, a$d I want you to think about 1. t, wila t you're asking tor, in my opinion, is maximum reI ie t. We're supposed to try and look at minimum relief. I've got to say, frankly, that the duplex doesn't botþer me so much as the two usages on the property. So, I want YOU'I'to think about, between now and when you come back here, the possibility ot not using that as a storage area, and maybe, Just think about that possibility, because it is going to take away from t~e whole area that should be designed for the tenants. You could op~n the front and make stalls for these people to get their cars oft the road, or off of Hr. Nelson's side property, so they don' ti. It would just make more parking for your tenants, more space fþr your tenants. As I say, I'm only one vote, but I am going to b~ looking. HRS. HCGOVERN-You' re saying that if "!Ie do that, then you would allow that many vehicles in that one ,area? The purpose of them parking on the south side, the one apa~tment, is so there isn't a lot of cars in one area. HRS. EGGLESTON-But in a garage would Qe even better. would be even better. The garage MR. HCGOVERN-If that will help our situation, we'll shut it down. MRS. MCGOVERN-We'll board it up. rrhat's all.\ HR. HCGOVERN-We don't have the money to make it into a two car garage, because w1th the Codes today, we're going to be putting a 38 lot 01 money into this, about $12,000 more than we expected. MkS. MCGOVERN-We're average people. money. We don't have that kind of Mk. MCGOVERN-So, we'll give you a stat¢ment to that effect, to the Town. MR. TURNER-Well, bring your informatiqn back. MRS. EGGLESTON-Well. all I'm asking i~ that you tn~nk about that, as alternatives, because after all. yoµ want to get along with the neighbors in the area, and not create. MR. FURLONG-I own two other dwellings~ one in South Glens Falls, and one in Glens Falls, and I have t~nants there 10 years in my apartment. 'l'hey pay $300. When I bqught them for a reasonable rate, because my interest on my houseiwas cheaper, I gave them a reasonable rate. I could raise it tþ $400 or $500 dollars and force them out into the street and pu~ anybody in there. I don't want anybody. I've got one tenant, ~5 years. I've got another tenant 7 years. one 9, and these ar~ nice people. 'rhese are working people. I only get nice peopl~ because this is my home. HR. PHILO-How much of a hardship is ~ t going to be to buy this property from Mr. Nelson? HR. MCGOVERN-We haven't got the money. MR. FURLONG-I just took a loan out of .y house. MRS. MCGOVERN-We took a loan, and wit~ the fire wall and all the extras, all by the Building Code and .verything, we're just about tap city. We're Just average people. HR. TURNER-Well, get us the informatidn requested. MRS. MCGOVERN-We definitely do not hav~ the money to buy that lot at $24,000. which he did say, if you have cash, $20,000. but we don't even have $20.000 in cash. MR. TURNER-All right. Get us the info~mation we requested and get it back to the Planning Department so iwe can get you back on the agenda. MR. MCGOVERN-Okay. Thank you. BRIAN HOONEY MR. MOONEY-My name is Brian Mooney. I ijust have one thing to say. I Just want it fresh in the Board's mirid. The remark was made, I think to the effect, that one of their tenants was colored, and Mr. Smith doesn't talk to them because he's colored. anymore, we have something against coloreds. I just w~nt to tell the Board that I have two colored grandchildren and a c~lored son-in-law. It's not a racial thing. MRS. MOONEY-It's not a racial issue b~ any means, and again, it's not a personal vendetta. MR. MOONEY-Also, because people don't ~now what their capabilities are, and they don't look into a busines~ venture ahead of time, and they tind out that all of a sudden the~ don't have the funds to do this properly, it's not our fault. Ok&y. We've invested our life savings in that corner, and the reason we did it was because we thought the neighborhood was coming baqk, and the neighborhood, as tar as I'm concerned, is coming pretty ~ood. We have decent people living there, decent neighbors. It's not my business who they rent to. All I'm saying is, I don't think there's enough room there. 39 MR. TURNER-We can only do it on the character of the neighborhood. MRS. MOONEY-Mr. Smith's comments and concerns are different than ours, because we're all different families. There are a lot 01 people in that are who I'm sure will attend the next meeting and voice an opinion. She obtained some signatures, yes, she did, but of those signatures, how many of them are landowners? HR. MOONEY-I believe you'll find most of them rent the property that they have. MRS. MOONEY-Irregardless of what she says, it is not a personal, I mean. if they want to build a one family house there. great. more power to them. and yes. they're going to rent to people who have a lot of children. that's understandable. but a family that's got enough kids to fill eight bedrooms is going to have to have some order. so it's not like they're going to be ripping the walls down. I mean. I don't know anybody who can live with eight kids and not have control of the situation. HR. TURNER-Okay. I think I'll leave the public hearing open. When the application comes back. MR. ~MITH-We'll be notified? HR. TURNER-I'm not sure. We don't generally do that. MRS. MOONEY-Well. how are we supposed to know? HR. 'l'UkNER-Let me ask you. can you have it here by. what's the agenda look like tor next month. first? Hk. MAR'I"IN-I think we can accommodate a submission, 1t you're looking tor something by the end of the week. or something like that. MR. TURNER-Are we going to have two meetings? HR. HAR "r I N - Yes. I think so. HR. TURNER-Okay. Can you get your informat10n in so we can schedule you for the second meet1ng of next month? MRS. MCGOVERN-All we need is the measurements of the lot and the house. and the building? MR. TURNER-Right. HRS. MCGOVERN-Yes. MR. MARTIN-The quickest. easiest way is right on the Tax Map. MR. SMITH-I Just want to know when we will be notified? HR. 'l'URNER-It's the second meeting of next month. Wednesday of the month. The fourth MR. HARTIN-And if there's any question. call us and will give you the date. MR. TURNER-That's the day before Thanksgiving. HRS. EGGLESTON-So. when will our meeting be that monthi MR. MARTIN-That's up to you. You can set the meetings. MR. TURNER-Okay. I'll tell you what. until we get this resolved, Mrs. Mooney. Mr. Martin will call you and give you the date. You can notify your neighbors. All right. 40 MR. MARTIN-These will be noticed in the paper in the Legal bection, but we'll call you. CORH.ESPONDENCE MRS. EGGLESTON-Okay. We have correspondence. A petition submitted by the applicants, "We, the undersigned, have no obJection to Mr. McGovern or Mr. Furlong making 134 Indiana Avenue from a single tamily dwelling to a two family dwelling. Adrian Fordrung, Rd 4, Irving Dean, 223A Ohio Avenue, Ella Danahy, 132A Indiana Avenue, Patrick and Shirley Breen, 131 Indiana Avenue, Barbara Mallaney, Indiana Avenue, Jennifer Otty. Indiana Avenue, Rita Quarters, 11 Indiana Avenue. Gary Eddy. 146 Indiana Avenue, Lisa Colgrove, 135 Indiana Avenue, Deborah Sawn, 140 Indiana Avenue, Ella Thew, 142 Indiana Avenue, Joanne LaBombard, 132 Indiana Avenue, Michael Smith. Corinth Road, Roberta Robichaud, Indiana Avenue, and Ray Clark, Indiana Avenue" MR. MOONEY-Out of that, five of them are renters. MR. TUH.NER-That's fine. property gets the notice. They live there. Whoever owns the MRS. MCGOVERN-May I just say. in answer to him, that one woman on there owns everyone of those properties, and she signs. MRS. EGGLESTON-Which one is that? MR. MCGOVERN-Barb Mallaney. MRS. MCGOVERN-She owns everyone of those properties, and I'd also say that everyone of these houses and signatures I went to. and everyone of them are around this house. These people live on the other road. way down on the other corner. MR. TURNER-I know where they live. Okay. We'll continue it when you're notified, and we're not going to discuss it anymore. I'll make a motion to table the application. MOTION TO TABLE AREA VARIANCE NO. 111-1992 THOMAS J. MCGOVERN DAN FURLONG, Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved for its adoption, seconded by Charles Sicard: For more information. Duly adopted this 28th day of October, 1992, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Philo, Mr. Carvin, Mrs. Eggleston, Mrs. Paling. Mr. Thomas, Mr. Sicard, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE (10:35 p.m.) AREA VARIANCE NO. 114-1992 TYPE II SR-20 ADAMS & RICH ASSOC. OWNER: HOMEFRONT DEVELOPMENT CORP. SOUTH SIDE OF CORINTH ROAD, APPROX. Ø.l MILE NORTHEAST OF WEST MT. ROAD. MOCKINGBIRD LAND AND OLD FINCH ROAD AT CORINTH ROAD FOR PLACEMENT OF COVERED FRONT PORCHES ON 5 OF THE HOMES WITHIN THE INSPIRATION PARK SUBDIVISION. PLACEMENT OF THE PORCHES WILL INFRINGE UPON THE REQUIRED FRONT SETBACK (THE SUM OF THE SIDE YARDS SHALL EQUAL 3Ø FT. OR MORE WITH A 10 PT. MINIMUM). APPLICANT SEEKING A 4 FT. RELIEF ON THE PRONT SE'fBACKS. (WARREN COUN'rY PLANNING) TAX MAP NO. 148-1-7.1 Lo'r SIZE: 22.48 ACRES SECTION 179-19C MARY ADAMS, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT (10:35 p.m.) MRS. EGGLESTON-And the Warren County Planning Board returned, "No County Impact" S'l'A.I!'F INPU'f 41 Notes trom Stall, Area Variance No. 114-1992, Adams & Rich Assoc.. Meeting Date: October 28, 1992 "PROJECT SUMMARY: Applicant is proposing to construct a 4 ft. by 5 ft. covered (entrance-way), on each of five (5) homes located within the subdivision. S'I'AI'f REVIEW: Applicant is seeking an area variance(s) [for each of the five (5) homes], from the Queensbury Zoning Ordinance Section 179- 19C which requires a 30 ft. front yard setback. Proposed proJect will reduce setback to 26 ft. along the 5 ft. width of the porch (entrance-way). STAff COMMENTS: Practical difficulty arises from the fact that the existing front yard setback is the required minimum, and therefore, does not allow placement of a covered porch in the front yard without infringing on the zoning requirements. The minimum variance is necessary to alleviate the specific practical difficulty. Variance would not be detrimental to other properties in the neighborhood as covered entrance-way would enhance the homes. Project w~ll not create any adverse effects on public facilities and services and the minimum relief is necessary to alleviate the specified practical difficulty." MRS. ADAMS-I'm Mary Adams, of Adams & Rich. We are the builders tor Hometront, Inspiration Park, which is a 42 house subdivision, located off Corinth Road. It's my faul t that I'm here. We described this as a subdivision setting, a woodsy setting, and we wanted each house to have individual characteristics, rather than have every house look alike. Because of our choice of affordable housing, we were only able to offer four different house styles, and in making variations in house styles, other than landscaping, we had s~ding colors that were different, which they could choose trom, door colors, shutter colors, and I had the architect design a little gabled roof cover to go over the cape cod design, and the colonial design, revival of covered entrance-way. We offered that as an option to the homeowners who could afford it, and we encouraged them to do it, because it would, over the ones that we put it, it would make a little bit of difference. The houses would look different than the others in the area, and we thought it would also be nice shelter when you're standing at the door trying to open the door, to get out of the rain. These are small Ii ttle gabled covers. 'l'his is a picture of the model home that we're proposing it for, and this would be over this little porchway, just a little four feet deep, and five foot wide gable cover. MR. TURNER-Is it four feet from the overhang, or is it from the front of the building? MRS. ADAMS-From the front of the building. At any rate, four of the new cape owners did select the little gabled cover, and one of the colonial, and I think it'll enhance the neighborhood, and I think ~t's a nice convenience, and so I respectfully ask for the variance. I have brought along a site map for you to look at, with my pins on them, each one went in as somebody got a house. The red ones are raised ranches, the blue ones are cape, the two yellow ones are colonials, and then there's one handicapped unit for a young woman who's a paraplegic. As you can see, there's not a whole lot of mix 1n design. We think it'll be charming. We are us~ng a lot of natural landscaping, but we think the porch is going to be an attractive addition. The reason that it's my fault is that I thought the zoning book was almost my bible during the two year period that this took, and apparently, I wasn't alone, because neither my architect or our engineer caught this little error, but we weren't quite sure how the houses would set on the lot. As you know, we have 50 feet of green space behind it that's not a part of the lot, for each home, and so somehow or other the calculations of the room that it would take for the septic field and for the setbacks, we missed it by four teet, and that's why I ask your indulgence. MR. TURNER-On some of them, like the two story model, Model Two, there, what if you turned that septic tank so it runs with the house '? 42 - MkS. AUAM~-We tr1ed to do it every way that was feasible in placing the sept1c system. we even wanted to put them all in the front. It Just d1dn't work. on the colonial. One of my requirements. and thlS was the developer's requirement. One of our requirements was on each side of the house. we're leaving a 10 toot green space area. so that indeed there will be 20 feet separating with trees in it. and we have root problems with those trees. and we're trying to maintain that. so when you look down the road. you will still see the woodsy setting. and not Just see a row of the front houses. MR. TURNER-No. but I mean. the septic tank's got a punch out in it for either the side delivery or the end delivery. So. you could have turned it the long way of the house. shortened up your septic field. and picked up that extra footage. MR. THOMAS-Do these houses exist now? MRS. EGGLESTON-No. MR. THOMAS-Nothing's built in there. yet. is there? MR~. ADAMS-Well. they aren't built. The basement are in now on all ot these along here. the basements are going in. There's a basement going in at least everyday. We expect to have allot these houses occupied. In fact. our commitment to the Town is that we're going to have all these houses occupied by Christmas. So. they're going really fast. We have a lot of people quite anxious to move in. MR. TURNER-The basements are in. The tanks aren't in. though. MRS. ADAMS-No. The tanks aren't in. but the basements are in. at least I don't think they are as of today. They've been in there. I think in there doing. MR. TURNER-Tanks wouldn't make any difference now. but I mean for the future houses. What I'm saying is you could come into the side of the tank and go out of the side of the tank. because there is a knock out. ~ou can take it either way. So. if you turned the tank the length of the house. then you could increase that depth. You wouldn't require a variance. You could set the house back the two or three feet. whatever need be. to pick up the porch. MRS. ADAMS-Okay. I'll tell my engineer. Yes. they could have done that. MR. TURNER-Then you wouldn't need a variance. just for these here. that you've got. the ones that are in. How many cellars do you have in'i' Mk. THOMAS-You said you had five in? MR. TURNER-Five? MRS. ADAMS-Yes. No. I have more than that in. I think this whole row is in. and they have the whole. some of these on this street. None of them are over on that street. Lets see. Let me see where they are. I'll tell you. The houses that we're talking about. that this pertains to. MR. PHILO-That's Queensbury water? MRS. ADAMS-Yes. It's all Town water. The houses. one house is on this road. and I'm quite sure. as of today. we haven't started on this road. So. that house. Lot 25. which is the first one you have on there. on Mockingbird Lane. that's true. Lot 13. is this house right here. and I think they have already dug the basement on that house. MR. TURNER-Have they dug the hole. or have they got the basement 43 - ~n: MRS. ADAMS-They have dug the hole. I don't think they have poured the basement. but I can't promise you. because I have not been there in two days. Lot Number Four. they already have the basement ~n. Lot Number 26. which is this one. and they have not done anything on that. to the best of my knowledge. Lot Number 36. they haven't dug the basement. I think. MR. PHILO-So. most of the ones you're asking for have already been don e '( Hk. 'l'URNER-No. HR. 'fHOMAS-No. There's only one. maybe two. MR. TURNER-One. maybe two. HRS. ADAMS-Two ot them. that I know of. HR. 'fURNER-All I' In saying to her is if she turned the tank the other way. she could move the house back. MR~. ADAMS-The only thing is. I wish I was an engineer. because then I could tell you. yes. they can turn the tanks the other way. I mean. I don't know that. I take your word for it. because you know a lot more than I do. MRS. EGGLESTON-I guess my only thought to that would be. it you set some back. moved some back and not others. what's that going to do to the way the street looks? I mean. you wouldn't notice the? MR. TURNER-You're never going to see three feet. MRS. ADAMS-It's not a problem anyway. We're deliberately having tree barriers between every lot. That's not a problem. The only thing I'm concerned with is when we could. we spent two or three days trying to work this out with Cushing Dybas. and with Tom Nace. and they didn't seem to think there was any way to work out this. and that's why I'm here tonight. because they said this was the only way that they could see to do it. given the setbacks and sept~c fields. where the trees were. and the green space. We had to take out some at the trees we didn't want to take out. because the trees roots. as it is. impinging upon the septic field. So. I'm not making an intelligible answer. and I'm sorry. and it's going so tast that I'm your sole respondent. HRS. EGGLESTON-I guess I would say if the three feet is so ~ns~gniticant. then what difference does it make? Why not leave it the way it is'( HR. TURNER-No. That was Just a suggestion on my part. that if they're not in. they could turn them. MRS. PALING-Three feet is such a little bit. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. rather than make them alter all their plans and redraw. It would be more work than probably what we're thinking at. HR. TURNER-Yes. I know. MRS. EGGLESTON-That would be my thought. HRS. ADAMS-We 11. we have already submi t ted our si te plans to everybody that we have to submit them to. and already are busily getting our building permits from the Town. HR. PHILO-That three foot. you'll never see it it you were an engineer. 44 - MR. TURNER-Yes. The tree barrier. too. is going to break it up. I don't have a problem with it. really. but that was just my thought. that you could turn them around. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. Maybe there's a reason. though. Ted. that they couldn't. I don't know what it would be. but maybe it's the way the leachfields. how much room the leachfields have in the back or something. MR. CARVIN-Are there covenants with these houses. in other words. the owners? Is this going to be an association type of thing. is lti I,IRS. ADAHS-A homeowners association owns the green space only. Each one ot the owners owns their lot and keeps it up. and then each one of the owners owns a 1/42nd share of the green space. MR. CARVIN-This may sound like a farfetched thing. Ted. but do we set a precedent by allowing a setback in something like this? If one ot these owners comes back later and wants to expand the porch. or would that have to be taken on its merit at that point? MR. TURNER-I think we'd have to take it on its merit at that point. Ïou're not necessarily setting a precedent. but obviously when they went through the site plan review. they showed the whole schematic. the whole layout. the typical layout for the units. and that identified where everything was going to be. except the porch. MR. CARVIN-I don't have a problem with it. sure we're not setting a precedent. I Just want to make HR. l'UkNER-No. I don't think we're setting a precedent. MR. PHILO-The rest of them are going to be back anyway. if they're going to have their 30 foot. The other ones don't have the porch. right? MRS. ADAMS-These are the only five that will have a porch. MR. TURNER-These are the only five that are going to have a porch, HRS. ADAHS-Yes. MR. THOMAS-What if somebody comes back later and says. gee. I like the look of that porch. I think I want one of those. Then they'd have to. MR. SICARD-Move the house back. MR. THOMAS-Come see us again. MRS. ADAMS-Well. then they would have to come see you. but they have so many more priorities on the things that they want to do to their home. that are really. you see. these houses are being built under very strict guidelines. and only one house will have a garage on it. and that is somebody who does not have any of the affordable housing grant money. and within the median income set by the Town ot Queensbury. but all of them are squeaking in. and they'll be looking forward to building their garages. and we have allowed the proper setbacks for the garages. everything fitted so every house can have a two car garage and they won't be in here knocking on your door. wanting a variance. HR. PHILO-On this affordable housing that you're they're getting so much money from the Federal grant. setting is it? up. MRS. ADAMS-No. This is the State program. under the New York State Affordable Housing Program for Middle Income Families. and this is also the new Affordable Housing plan. in which all of the home owners that will be moving in here can make no more than 120 45 percent of median income, as defined, really, by the County. The people that, only two homes won't have grants connected with them, and they come under the 120 percent of median income. The rest of the homes come under the provisions of the New York State Affordable Housing Grants Program for people whose income is 90 percent of median income, or under for the size of the family. For instance, with the size of the family of four, median income tor the Queensbury area is defined, for the Metropolitan Statist1cal Area, is defined as $31,000. In determining the size ot the grant that people get, it's determined really by the size of the mortgage that FHA will give them, and with the amount of money they have to contribute towards their down payment, with a minimum of $1,00Ø, and so the program sponsored by Homefront , through the New York State Affordable Housing makes up for the difference in that, so that some people, the maximum grant anyone's eligible for a down payment is $;¿5,00Ø, but the average on these houses 1S running closer to $17,000. Some people are only getting grants of $3 or $4,000. Some are getting the maximum. So, we have 40 grants that we have, we had $25,000 grants for the 38 houses, but we've been able to spread it over. MR. PHILO-What would be the maximum payment per month? HRI::ì. ADM1S-0n a house'? It depends upon the size the mortgage somebody qualifies for. The smallest payment that I recall that anybody will be making is something like $555. MR. PHILO-That's the smallest? MRS. ADAMS-That's the smallest payment. selling from $76,000 up to $82,00Ø. $84,0Ø0. These are houses that are I think one of them was MR. PHILO-Some are paying a lot more than the $50Ø and something? MRI::ì. ADAMS-Sure, people that are carrying bigger mortgages will be paY1ng more than that. MR. PHILO-Eight, nine hundred? MRS. ADAMS-I don't have anybody that'll be paying $900. MR. PHILO-Well, $800 and change. MRS. ADAMS-I have one person that is going to be paying close to $800. MRS. EGGLESTON-May I ask what mandated these specific five and only these five lots will have porches, as opposed to everybody else? MRS. ADAMS-We gave everyone a list of options that could not exceed more than $2500. In other words, whatever add ons they did to the base house, under our mandate from the State, their options couldn't exceed $2500. Some of those options were for appliances. Some people had their appliances and didn't need them. One of the options was for a sliding door on the raised ranches that would be suitable for the deck. One of the options was for a metal bestus chimney going through the house for people who wanted a wood burning stove in their house, and one of the options was for this covered roof, and it was sui table only for the capes and the colonials. It doesn't work, nor is it needed on the raised ranch, because they have a step back where the door is. So, all of the options were selected by the buyers, whichever ones they wanted, that they could afford wi thin their $2500, and to be perfectly frank, I encouraged some people to take this option because I wanted a few of those little gabled porches. I thought it would be attractive to have a different. MRS. EGGLESTON-Did you realize it would violate the Ordinance when you did that? 46 - MRS. ADAMS-No. We will be having an open house. housewarming kind of thing. sometime. like. the first week in December. in which we'd like all of you to come and see three of the houses. MR. MARTIN-This is really something to see. I encourage the Board members to go see this. because this is going on right now. and we're talking about. literally. 42 houses that are going in simultaneously. The other thing I think is worth noting. just tor your information. is when the people go to buy these homes. you can correct me if I'm wrong. they sign a commitment to live there is years without selling the house. So. this is with the intent 01 creating a good stable neighborhood. MRS. ADAMS-It's really 10 years. but you're right. and that's their prov~sion for getting the grant. that they will occupy the house tor 10 years. but if you knew the people that were moving in here. you would be so happy. because they are hardworking families. that there is no way they could have gotten a house. and one family was Just getting ready to move back down south. They said. we're Just going to have to pick up and go and give up our jobs. because we cannot raise our four children here. We just haven't got enough. we can't afford to. but that was one example. The others are people that were born here. One family that I talked to said. do you know. Mary. we are going to be the first generation in our tamily. who've been here since the revolution. to ever own a house. I'll tell you. I cried. MR. THOMAS-Are there any more options that you offer that would require a variance? MRS. ADAMS-No. These houses are also. the people are waiting to move in right now. MR. MARTIN-These are all known quantities now. in the closet. I don't think. No more skeletons MR. PHILO-Is there any way that they're going to be able to put any on any other homes! MRS. EGGLESTON-Not without a variance. MR. PHILO-I mean. lets nip this thing in the bud. now. MR. TURNER-Well. that was my thought with turning the tank around. MRS. EGGLESTON-But you can't deprive people of coming and asking. MRS. ADAMS-Well. to tell the truth. I don't see. other than their garage. which we left room for. I do not see how anyone can make an addition on to this. I know where all the fields are. and you have to have so much room for the septic field. There is no place there. MR. MARTIN-As I recall. also there's some of the levels. like in the split level homes. where the basements are unfinished. and 1 would think. as a matter of fact. we made changes in the designs tor people to accommodate finishing off the interiors to add a bedroom or whatever. MRS. ADAMS-That's true in the Capes. They are designed so people can add two bedrooms and a bath upstairs. at reasonable expense. We have them semi finished. the flooring in. the insulation in. the stem pipes tor the bath. and we just discovered we also have to pay them to build a. HR. MAR/fIN-As a matter of fact. the Building Department even suggested leaving some of the. as a temporary CO. so that people can leave their building permit open without the expense of a new bu~lding permits. 47 .,------'".~ -- - HRS. EGGLES'I'ON-'fhere J s nothing in the covenants, though, that prohibits them expanding the footage of the house, what they get? MRS. ADAMS-Well, they can't violate the. MRS. EGGLESTON-No, but they could with a variance. MRS. ADAMS-There are no covenants. MRS. EGGLESTON-Okay. MRS. ADAMS-We deed it to them. The only thing our covenants regard 1S the green space. We can't do anything to that. MR. TURNER-Let me ask Jimmy. Jim, when you guys looked at the site plan, were all the houses meeting the front yard setback, 30 foot, period? MR. MARTIN-Yes. I think it's to be acknowledged that things are tight there, but I mean you have to remember the nature of the intent here. It's affordable housing, and I think they did a pretty good job of it. MR. TURNER-Okay. I'll open the public hearing. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED NO COMMENT PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED MR. TURNER-Okay. Motion's in order. MOTION TO APPROVE AREA VARIANCE NO. 114-1992 ADAMS & RICH ASSOC., Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved for its adoption, seconded by Joyce Eggleston: The applicant is seeking relief from the front yard setback, that being to add an optional covered entrance-way on each of the five homes located within the subdivision, Lot 4, Lot 13, Lot 25, Lot 26, and Lot 36, a relief of four feet, which makes the setback 26 feet. The practical difficulty is the fact that this is a site for affordable housing which went through site plan review with the front yard setbacks at 30 feet. So, in order to add a covered entrance-way to the house, the variance request is required. The variance would not be detrimental to other properties in the neighborhood, and there would be no adverse effect on public facilities or services. This is the minimum variance necessary to alleviate the specific practical difficulty. Duly adopted this 28th day of October, 1992, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Carvin, Mrs. Eggleston, Mrs. Paling, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Sicard, Mr. Philo, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE (11:07 p.m.) On motion meeting was adjourned. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED, Theodore Turner, Chairman 48