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1993-07-28 r QUEENSBURY ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS SECOND REGULAR MEET I NG 0 R , GIN A L JULY 28TH, 1993 INDEX Area Variance No. 61-1993 David and Dawn Judkins 1. Use Variance No. 62-1993 Gustaf H. Myhrberg 11. Sign Variance No. 63-1993 Gustaf H. Myhrberg 17. Use Variance No. 64-1993 Peter and Wanda Rozell 17. Area Variance No. 65-1993 Mark Plaza 31. Area Variance No. 66-1993 Area Variance No. 67-1993 Area Variance No. 68-1993 I Dr. John & Catherine Sconzo 32. Adirondack Coffee Service, Inc. 35. Debbie Petrosky 61. THESE ARE NOT OFFICIALLY ADOPTED MINUTES AND ARE SUBJECT TO BOARD AND STAFF REVISIONS. REVISIONS WILL APPEAR ON THE FOLLOWING MONTHS MINUTES (IF ANY) AND WILL STATE SUCH APPROVAL OF SAID MINUTES. QUEENSBURY ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS SECOND REGULAR MEETING JULY 28TH, 1993 7:30 P. M. MEMBERS PRESENT THEODORE TURNER, CHAIRMAN JOYCE EGGLESTON, SECRETARY FRED CARVIN THOMAS PHILO LINDA HAUSER CHRIS THOMAS ROBERT KARPELES PLANNER-ARLYNE RUTHSCHILD STENOGRAPHER-MARIA GAGLIARDI NEW BUSINESS: AREA VARIANCE NO. 61-1993 SFR-1A DAVID AND DAWN JUDKINS OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE 11 WHITE PINE ROAD APPLICANT IS PROPOSING TO EXPAND AN EXISTING SINGLE FAMILY DWELLING WITH A FOURTEEN BY TWENTY-SIX (14 X 26) FOOT ADDITION TO THE SOUTH SIDE OF SAID STRUCTURE. APPLICANT IS PROPOSING FOURTEEN AND SIX HUNDREDTHS (14.06) FEET FOR THE SOUTH SIDE YARD SETBACK AND IS SEEKING RELIEF OF FIVE AND NINETY-FOUR HUNDREDTHS (5.94) FEET FROM SECTION 179-20C, WHICH REQUIRES TWENTY (20) FEET FOR THE SIDE YARD SETBACK IN THE SINGLE FAMILY RESIDENTIAL ZONE. TAX MAP NUMBER: 90-8-74 LOT SIZE: 24.803 ACRES SECTION 179-20C DAVID JUDKINS, PRESENT STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff, Area Variance No. &1-1993, David and Dawn Judkins, Meeting Date: July 28, 1993 "ADDRESS OF PROJECT: 11 White Pine Road SUMMARY OF PROJECT: Applicant is proposing to expand an existing single family dwelling with a fourteen by twenty-six (14 x 26) foot additi~n to the south side of said structure. CONFORMANCE WITH USE/AREA REGULATIONS: Applicant is proposing fourteen and six hundredths (14.0&) feet for the south side yard setback and is seeking relief of five and ninety-four hundredths (5.94) feet from Section 179-20C, which requires twenty (20) feet for the side yard setback in the Single Family Residential 1 Acre zone. REVIEW CRITERIA: 1. DESCRIBE THE PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW THE PLACEMENT OF A STRUCTURE WHICH MEETS THE ZONING CODE. The only practical place to expand the existing dwelling is at the south side of said building as there is a pool in the rear yard, septic system in the front yard and a garage on the north side of the house. 2. IS THIS THE MINIMUM VARIANCE NECESSARY TO ALLEVIATE THE SPECIFIC PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY OR IS THERE ANY OTHER OPTION WHICH WOULD REQUIRE NO VARIANCE? It would appear that the relief requested is the minimum variance necessary to alleviate the specific practical difficulty and for reasons stated in Question 1, no other option is available which would require no variance. 3. WOULD THIS VARIANCE BE DETRIMENTAL TO THE OTHER PROPERTIES IN THE DISTRICT OR NEIGHBORHOOD? It would appear that the variance would not be detrimental to other properties in the district or neighborhood as the project is consistent with the character of the neighborhood. 4. WHAT ARE THE EFFECTS OF THE VARIANCE ON PUBLIC FACILITIES SERVICES? It would appear that the variance would not effect public facilities or services. STAFF COMMENTS AND CONCERNS: Applicant has attached a letter detailing the reason for the expansion of his house and in the application states that upon discussing the project with his neighbors, no one voiced an objection to the proposed expansion." - 1 - MR. TURNER-Okay. stories? Mr. Judkins. Are you going the full two MR. JUDKINS-No, a single story. MR. TURNER-I looked at it. limited as to what you can do what, a bedroom, a bathroom, There's nothing, you're pretty to add on to it. It's going to be, and what else? MR. JUDKINS-A sitting area. MRS. EGGLESTON-Do you already have an in-law apartment upstairs? in your MR. JUDKINS-No. MRS. EGGLESTON-There's no other facilities your rooms consist of, within the house? in the, 1 i k e, wh at do MR. JUDKINS-There's three bedrooms upstairs. There is an activity room over the garage. We recently bought the house. We didn't create the activity room, but it requires stairs. That was our original plan when we negotiated to buy the house over a year and a half ago, but her physical condition isn't such that I can ask her to go up and down the stairs. It wouldn't be practical at this point. MRS. EGGLESTON-Is there living facilities up there? MR. JUDKINS-No, no. It's just a huge room where we have the kids playroom. There's no plumbing or anything like that. MRS. EGGLESTON-How long have you owned the property? MR. JUDKINS-We just bought it in April. MRS. EGGLESTON-In April of this year? MR. JUDKINS-Yes. MR. CARVIN-Have you putting the addition moving the porch out, thought about expand i ng, in other words, where the screened in porch is, and then in other words, putting the porch on? MR. JUDKINS-I hadn't thought about it. All the roofs are interconnected. There are skylights in the screened in porch. It's got a six inch cement floor with cement footings, four by four rafters, and it still would not give me the eighteen feet required from the distance of the pool, I think it's eighteen feet that's required, ten feet. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes, 10. MR. CARVIN-I think, it's going to be close. I'd like to see if that could be explored, because I think if you put the addition on that side, it's going to put it awfully close to the property line, and when I was out there looking at it, it just seemed that that was going to be fairly close to the house next door, even though it was a garage, and they've got a pool, and it looks like it's going to get kind of clustered. I know I did something very simi lar to thi s. In other words, I had a deck porch that we converted into additional living space and then just put the deck on the end of that. MR. PHILO-I think the cost would be prohibitive, Fred. MR. CARVIN-I don't think so, Tom. MR. PHILO-Because they can't go down with the frost wall on there, and they've got to have a frost wall for a living area. 2 - MR. JUDKINS-Well, the problem is the roof on the screened in porch doesn't take off from the first floor. It takes off from the second floor. Where the roof vau 1 t s from, it's about 16 feet in the air. So that would structurally make it very difficult. As you walk out on the porch and look up, it's about 16 feet in the air, and it comes down at an angle from that. MRS. EGGLESTON-Did you not know in April when you bought the house that your mother-in-law had this problem, and you should be looking for something where you wouldn't have to move into a neighborhood, and immediately start encroaching on the side lines? MR. JUDKINS-Well, when I spoke to my neighbors, and specifically the one on the south side, I explained to them what I wanted to do, after I met them, and what the circumstances were. They had absolutely no problems with it. I even offered to put up a fence just as far out as the building extended, if they wanted to for their own privacy. They said that that would not be necessary. Additionally, from right where my property ends and their property begins is their driveway, and there's approximately another 20 feet to the edge of their driveway, or to the doors in their garage, and their house is on the other side of that. So between wher~ this addition would go, and the actual living space of their house, they're still 35 to 40 feet. MR. CARVIN-How big is the, do you know what the total square footage of the house is? MR. JUDKINS-Of ~ house? MR. CARVIN-Yes. MR. JUDKINS-I think it's about 26, 27. MRS. EGGLESTON-How many rooms downstairs? MR. JUDKINS-Downstairs there's a living room, dining room, a formal living room, a small computer room, and a kitchen. MR. PHILO-You're going to live in this year round? MR. JUDKINS-Am I? Yes. It's our primary residence. MR. TURNER-Lets get back to the roof line. off where, right at the edge of the house? The roof line drops MR. JUDKINS-This is for the screened in porch? MR. TURNER-Yes. stop out here? Does the roof line st op ri ght there, or does it MR. JUDKINS-It stops out here, but where it starts on the house is where the second story roof ends. MR. TURNER-Okay. So why can't you put her there and out, that's what Mr. Carvin's saying. I mean, just to ask for a variance, you have to provide an alternative, you can't do it. move that come and as to why MR. JUDKINS-Well, I'm not a builder. I had a builder come out. I had a couple of builders come out. Structurally, I'm not sure how you'd do it. I mean, you basically would have to remove the whole roof, to do it. Not only that, if you went out another 15 or 20 feet, you couldn't have any pitch on the addition that you then put out. There's only about, it's maybe nine feet to where the gutter is off the back of the screened in porch. So if I built out another 12 or 15 feet, I'd have no pitch to that other roof. It would be flat. - 3 - \ MR. CARVIN-Well, I'm certainly not an architect, so I don't know. All I know is that they were able to do something very similar to my house, and they were able to match the roof line and everything. MR. TURNER-It can be done. MR. CARVIN-As I said, I'm not a contractor, so I wouldn't but. know, MR. PHILO-I don't there, Ted. know how he could put that roof system in MR. CARVIN-I can only speak for the guy that did my place. I mean, he was a magician, and I certainly don't have the floor plans on this, or know what the roof pitch looks like, but. MRS. EGGLESTON-I just find it a little bit disheartening that you move into the neighborhood, within a month, trying to change the character of the neighborhood. As you drive up and down this whole section, the houses are placed so that there is nothing on those side lines, and it looks so nice. It's beautiful that way, and yet, here, we're already being asked to change. MR. TURNER-You know what I'd like to have them do? Table it and bring us back. MR. JUDKINS-Well, I'd just like to point out that I still have nine feet that I could, if I wanted to put whatever on that side, I could bui ld on that side, variance. It wouldn't serve the purpose that I need. be too narrow. I mean, there's still space to build side. I'm only asking for a five foot relief from the There's 28 feet from the side of my building to the line, and not even a full five feet. It's 4.9, I think, would have built out towards the front, if I could, septic system is there, and it can't be done. could, I a shed or wi thout a It would on that setback. property feet. I but the MR. TURNER-Do you want him to take a look at it and see why he can't, and why he? MR. CARVIN-Well, again, I don't know if it's a viable alternative. So, I mean, on paper it looks like it could be done, but certainly I'm not a contractor. MR. KARPELE5-Well, maybe he could get a letter stating, from a contractor, why it couldn't be done. MR. CARVIN-What the cost difference between putting the addition on and what it would cost to convert that porch area. I mean, I just think it makes a. MR. JUDKINS-I want to point out, that it's not a porch, in the sense that it's got a raised floor. It's just a cement slab. MR. CARVIN-Yes. Here story building either, again, I mean, you're not building a and again, what I'm saying is. two MR. PHILO-You've got to take that slab up. There's no frost walls under it or anything. It would cost a lot of money. MR. CARVIN-I don't know that, Tom. MR. PHILO-Well, I'm telling you, as a contractor, it's going to cost a lot of money. MR. TURNER-The footing could go outside of the slab that's already there. MR. PHILO-There's no frost wall around it. It's got to go down 4 - -------..----...---..-.----- (' -~ four foot below grade. MR. TURNER-Yes, I know. MR. CARVIN-Well, he's going to be putting that on the other side, so his expense factor is going to be the same. He's going to have to put a frost wall footing onto the addition. MR. PHILO-In other words, he's going to lose his screened in porch. He's going to have to tear everything up and start over again. MR. CARVIN-Well, you'll just move it out. MR. KARPELES-He could move the screen porch out. MR. CARVIN-He's not losing anything. He's just putting it on to the back. MR. TURNER-He's going to re-attach it, Tom. MR. CARVIN-And he's 30 screened porch. concerned, it falls side. asking for a 14 by 26, and he's got a 12 by So, I mean, as far as square foot age is within two feet. He loses two feet on one MR. JUDKINS-Then that would require me to walk through my mother's bedroom to get to the screened porch. MR. CARVIN-I'm alternative. I could be, and I you explore this just saying, I don't mean, look i ng on the think that's what Mr. and come back and give know if it's a viable paper, it looks like it Turner is saying is, can us some documentation. MR. TURNER-Give us some rationale why you can or you can't. Don't just say, you know, that you can't do it, without exploring it, because all we've got to look at here is just a plot plan. MR. PHILO-Have the contractor you're doing it for write up a letter, okay, in other words, so you're not coming out through that. MR. THOMAS-Mr. Judkins, How thick is that slab, you said that's built on a slab, right? six inches, eight inches, guess? MR. JUDKINS-Something like that. It's at least six. MR. THOMAS-How would you put sewer pipes and water pipes through that eight inch slab, to get a bathroom back in there, without destroying it? You couldn't do it. MR. CARVIN-Well, is there a bathroom on the first floor? know what the floor plan. I don't MR. THOMAS-Well, I mean, if you said a bathroom screened porch is, and it's sitting on a cement slab, going to get all the pipes down through there? where that how are you MR. JUDKINS-But the porch is out side, outside the foundation of the house. that screened porch is MR. CARVIN-Is there a bathroom on the first floor? MR. JUDKINS-Yes, but the porch is built outside the foundation. MR. THOMAS-It's outside the foundation. MR. JUDKINS-I'd still have to go through the cement. MRS. EGGLESTON-How many members of your family are there? - 5 ----' MR. JUDKINS-I have three children and my wife and myself, five. MRS. EGGLESTON-Five altogether. MR. THOMAS-I think it would be damn near impossible to put a bathroom out there on that slab, without completely destroying it. MR. CARVIN-Well, where's the wash room? I don't know where, I'm assuming, is there a wash room? MR. JUDKINS-The wash room is on the side of the house closest to the street. It's on the other side of the house. MR. THOMAS-So there's no pipes of that house, right where that screen into? any kind on the back side of porch is, that you could tie MR. JUDKINS-No, on the other side of the second floor, on the south side of the second floor. MR. THOMAS-So you would have to destroy that You'd have to rip the whole thing right down, That doesn't seem cost effective to me. slab, everything. start over again. MR. PHILO-That's a hardship in itself. MR. THOMAS-And he's only asking for five feet no objection from the neighbors. on the south side, MR. PHILO-There's at least, almost 40 feet to the next building. MR. THOMAS-That's right. I think that screened in porch, I don't think it's an alternative, that screened in porch area, just for the fact that he'd have to destroy the thing just to build a new building, or put a new addition on. MR. JUDKINS-I think if you saw the screened in porch you'd know, it cost something like $13,000 to have it built. MISS HAUSER-I also think it's a valid point that he would not be able to use the screened in porch without walking through his mother's apartment. MRS. EGGLESTON-Well, my only point was, it's kind of a self- imposed hardship, since he just bought the property knowing this was going to come about. MR. JUDKINS-No. That's not exactly true, Mrs. Eggleston. We had a contract to buy the house over a year before we bought it. The agreement was that the people who moved in it, he was taking a new job, and they could take their time and move out, and so forth. The hardship developed over that time. When I first bought the house, my plans were to let my mother move upstairs, but it's just not physically possible. Believe you me, I don't want to build this addition. If there was another way to do it, I would not want to spend all that money to do it. MRS. EGGLESTON-Well, that explanation helps some. I mean, you know yourself, if you had lived in a neighborhood for a long time, and somebody just bought a house, and immediately wanted to invade the side lines and so on, when you bought it specifically to have the space around your homes, you might feel an intrusion. MR. JUDKINS-That's true. I agree. MR. CARVIN-You say there is extra space upstairs? utilized as a bedroom, or, is there any bedrooms floor? I wish I had a floor plan of the place. Is that being on the first - 6 - MR. JUDKINS-There's no bedrooms on the first floor. a half bath on the first floor, a toilet. There's only MRS. EGGLESTON-You said there was a computer room on the first floor, in addition, did you say a den or a computer room? MR. JUDKINS-Yes. It's about six by eight. MRS. EGGLESTON-A computer room, did you call it? MR. JUDKINS-Yes. MR. CARVIN-And then four bedrooms upstairs? MR. JUDKINS-Right. MRS. EGGLESTON-Not including the big room that you said was an activity room? MR. JUDKINS-Yes. Basically what they did was sheet rock over the second story of the garage and just made it one big area with shelves. MR. CARVIN-Is there a finished cellar with this? MR. JUDKINS-Finished cellar? No. MR. CARVIN-There is a cellar though? MR. JUDKINS-There is a cellar. It's not finished. MR. PHILO-Are you going to put a bathroom in that new addition for your mother? MR. JUDKINS-Yes, and I'm going to make it big enough for a handicapped bathroom, in the event that she ultimately ends up in a wheelchair. MR. PHILO-If you had a bathroom on this back, where that screened porch is, it'd be an awful job running the pipe out to the septic tank, through the house, percentage of grade, you'd miss the sept ic tank. MR. KARPELES-Well, the computer room couldn't be used as a bedroom, and use the computer room upstairs, one of the bedrooms upstairs for a computer room? MR. JUDKINS-Well, like I said, it's only six by eight. no full bathroom on the first floor. There's MR. CARVIN-You could also put in a septic out in the back. You don't have to connect it up in the front. You can always front it out, or can' t you? MR. PHILO-No, you can't. There's a swimming pool out there. That's against the Code. Then you'd have to put a drain field out there and everything. I would recommend that we give the guy the f i ve fee t , be c au s e, i f he' s go in g t 0 h a v e $ 13, $ 1 4, 000 in a screened porch, tear it off, and then, he couldn't put a bathroom back there, no matter what he did on the screened porch. The septic tank's out front. The drain field's out front. The pool's out back. You're going to put a septic tank in a pool? That's against the building code, and Joyce brought up one thing about, the houses were close, but there's 40 feet from this building to the next building, and the neighbor's driveway, right? MR. TURNER-Over to the neighbor's house, I think he said, to the neighbor's house? - 7 - MR. JUDKINS-To the doors of the neighbor's garage, then there's the garage, then there's the house. MR. TURNER-The door's on the inner side of the garage, right? MR. JUDKINS-Facing my house. His door is facing my house. MR. KARPELES-I don't think we've got enough information. I think we ought to see a layout of the house. It seems like an awfully big house to not have room enough to use a bedroom downstairs, or be able to create a bedroom downstairs. Maybe if we could see something, and be convinced that there is no other alternatives. I'm not convinced. MR. TURNER-Do you have a floor plan of the house, not with you, but I mean, do you have one? MR. JUDKINS-I didn't build the house. I don't have a floor plan. MR. TURNER-I know, but you're not in receipt of one? You don't have one? They didn't give you one? MR. JUDKINS-No. MR. PHILO-How about your contractor? Can he draw us up a print and explain what rooms are what, that you're hiring to do this addition? Have him make us a layout of that existing building. MR. JUDKINS-Well, I suppose he could, but even if I made a room a bedroom, it doesn't answer the question, I still have to have a full bath, big enough for someone who can't walk well to get into and to be able to bath. MR. PHILO-I understand that. You have to have 40 inch doors. MR. KARPELES-Well, why can't the bath be expanded downstairs, that's already downstairs. MR. JUDKINS-Well, again, you'd have to see the floor plan, but that bathroom in the back is only four feet wide, and in the front is only five and a half feet wide. The garage is on one side of it and the kitchen's on the other. It's just not physically possible, but you've got to take my word for that, and it's on the entire other side of the house. MRS. EGGLESTON-This 2&00's a lot of living space. MR. CARVIN-I think it's more than that. MRS. EGGLESTON-You think it's more than 2&00? MR. CARVIN-Well, we've got 40 by 2&, right? MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. MR. CARVIN-So 2& x 40, so that's 1,040, plus you've got sixteen by, I don't k now wh a t t his lit tIe lop 0 f f ish ere, but you' ve got sixteen by a certain amount of space here. So you've got another, you've probably got fifteen, sixteen hundred on the fi rst floor, and then you've got the second floor. So, you've got probably another 1,040 on the second floor, if it's over this, and I don't know how this is cut up. I mean, normally there's a wash room in here some place, and then a kitchen. Well, again, I can only go by, it looks like there's 40 feet on the front, by 2& feet wide, but then there's a little jag there. MR. PHILO-How do you identify that it's 2& foot? MR. KARPELES-Over here, on this end, this is 2&. - 8 - ~- MR. CARVIN-Well, if his addition is 26. MR. JUDKINS-No, the house is 24. The addition would be cantilevered off the back two extra feet, and the reason I did that, the reason I proposed to cantilever it off the back two feet, was so that I didn't have to go two feet the other way, and that's as close as I could get to the pool. MR. TURNER-Do you want to see a floor plan? MR. CARVIN-I'd like to to, you know, I mean, to move on this, but have been exhausted. see a floor plan. I mean, I'd just like it' s up to the Board. If the Board wants I'm not quite sure that all the viable plans MR. THOMAS-You know, these homes back in there are Woodbury Homes, and I mean, they were laid out, a two story has a living quarters downstairs and the bedrooms upstairs. So they didn't allow any extra room downstairs to put an addition, or a bedroom inside. I mean, you've got your dining room, your living room, and what if he wants to go and sell this in 20 years? All of a sudden he's got an existing house that's all cut up funny on the first floor, whereas the addition, if somebody wanted to, they could take it off, but if you start cutting up a formal living room and a formal dining room, like this house probably has, you're asking an awful lot, I think. Structurally, you might not be able to do it. MR. KARPELES-We don't know that. MR. PHILO-When you Rehab costs more tearing. go rehab work, I agree wi th you, Mr. Thomas. than new construction. If you go ripping and MR. THOMAS-That's right, too, and you're taking a perfectly good house that was designed one way, and you want to whack it up into a bedroom downstairs and another full bathroom downstairs. You're taking away from the living quarters of the house that the other family members use. All he's asking for is an addition for a bedroom, a bathroom and a sitting area off to the side, so it doesn't screw up the rest of the house. MR. PHILO-I wouldn't want the downstairs of my house chopped up. MR. THOMAS-I wouldn't want mine, either, chopped up like that. MR. TURNER-I don't think anybody's asking that. I think all we're asking is lets see a floor plan of the house, so we can see what's there. Just don't bring us a sketch with just some dimensions on it, with nothing to look at. That's what we're saying. MR. THOMAS-Yes, but he's asking for, what, a 300 addition? You're going to chop up 300 square foot inside of that house? square foot out of the MR. TURNER-No. I don't know as we are, but he's not showing us any t h i n g, Ch r is. MR. THOMAS-It doesn't matter, really, because the house was designed one way. Rooms are a certain size. MRS. EGGLESTON-But he didn't have to buy the house, Chris. MR. PHILO-You've got a bathroom that's four foot, downstairs. MRS. EGGLESTON-He didn't have to buy the house. MR. THOMAS-Well, he didn't know he was going to be in this situation when he bought it. - 9 - MRS. EGGLESTON-He only bought it three months ago. in April of this year, that's MR. THOMAS-But when he started the us that he wasn't in the position in the physical condition she is happened over the period of time. process of buying it, he told he is now, his mother was not now. It's just that things MR. JUDKINS-Mr. Turner, did I leave something application? I was of the opinion that the plans were what were required for the application. out of that I the gave MR. TURNER-Well, you can see what's going on right now. want to see a floor plan. They MR. JUDKINS-I'm just asking, did I leave something out that I should have had in the application? MISS HAUSER-Can't he come up here and show us where his living room, dining room, kitchen is on the little sketch? MR. TURNER-Maybe he could. you do that? Do you know what size they are? Can MR. JUDKINS-I can if it'll answer your question. is all garage. This right here MR. TURNER-Yes, I looked at it. MR. JUDKINS-Okay. Right in here is the formal living room. This is the computer room. This is the family room, where the t.v. is, this is the formal dining room. All of this is the kitchen, and this little area right here is the downstairs bathroom, and this is the hallway. MR. PHILO-You can't even get a wheelchair in there. to have a 40 inch door. You've got MR. TURNER-Does that answer your concerns? MISS HAUSER-I don't think bath in mind, so that, as these homes were designed with Chris said, they can't expand. a full MR. PHILO-They can't even take tho~e walls out, Miss Hauser. They can't take those walls out because the way they built those, with that skewed garage, everything is bearing points, all the petitions. MR. JUDKINS-It runs right down the center of the house. MR. PHILO-That's right. MR. THOMAS-And I imagine those walls on the end of the living room, and that computer room, I imagine they support second floor walls. They're bearing walls. You can't move those out. You can't start playing around with stuff like that. The whole house, the structural integrity will go right in the crapper. MR. PHILO-If there's nobody here objecting against this, if there's a neighbor or not, because Joyce brought that up, she liked the barrier between the houses. There's nobody here that would object to it, I think we should continue on with this. We're here to serve the people, not procrastinate. MR. TURNER-Anymore concerns? You all the public hearing. set? Okay. Let me open PUBLIC HEARING OPENED NO COMMENT - 10 - PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED MR. TURNER-Okay. Okay. All right. Motion's in order. Motion's in order. Any further discussion? MOTION TO APPROVE AREA VARIANCE NO. JUDKINS, Introduced by Chri s Thomas seconded by Thomas Philo: 61-1993 DAVID AND DAWN who moved for its adoption, And grant the applicant 5.94 feet of relief from the side yard setback, as stated in Section 179-20C. The applicant has demonstrated that there is no practical alternative. There is no objection from the neighborhood. There is no detrimental effect on the public utilities and services. Duly adopted this 28th day of July, 1993, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Philo, Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Carvin, Mrs. Eggleston, Miss Hauser, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE USE VARIANCE NO. 62-1993 SFR-20 TYPE: UNLISTED GUSTAF H. MYHRBERG OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE 39 EVERTS AVENUE APPLICANT IS PROPOSING TO SELL ANTIQUES OUT OF AN EXISTING ACCESSORY STRUCTURE ON HIS PROPERTY AND IS SEEKING RELIEF FROM SECTION 179-20D, PERMITTED USES, IN THE SINGLE FAMILY RESIDENTIAL ZONE. TAX MAP NUMBER: 108-1-29.2 LOT SIZE: 1.38 ACRES SECTION 179-20D GUSTAF MYHRBERG, PRESENT STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff, Use Variance No. 62-1993, Gustaf H. Myhrberg, Meeting Date: July 28, 1993 "ADDRESS OF PROPERTY: 39 Everts Avenue SUMMARY OF PROJECT: Applicant is proposing to sell antiques out of an existing accessory structure on his property. CONFORMANCE WITH USE/AREA REGULATIONS: 1. Applicant is proposing to sell antiques out of an existing accessory structure and is seeking relief from Section 179-19D, Permitted Uses, in the Single Family Residential zone. REVIEW CRITERIA: 1. IS A REASONABLE RETURN POSSIBLE IF THE LAND IS USED AS ZONED? Applicant does not believe that reasonable return of the land is possible as zoned as applicant and spouse need to use their land as their main source of income (see attached explanation). 2. ARE THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE LOT UNIQUE AND NOT DUE TO THE UNREASONABLENSS OF THE ORDINANCE? The circumstance of the lot is unique in relation to the need of the applicant to use the lot to earn his living and the permitted uses of the zone within which his parcel is located. 3. IS THERE AN ADVERSE EFFECT ON THE NEIGHBORHOOD CHARACTER? It would appear that the variance would not have an adverse effect on the character of the neighborhood, because although it is zoned residential the actual use of the neighborhood is mixed commercial and residential. STAFF COMMENTS AND CONCERNS: Applicant is proposing to operate an antique store out of an existing garage located behind his dwelling and to the rear of the property. Applicant owns the contiguous vacant lot to the south of proposed project and is planning to use this vacant parcel as the parking area for the proposed project." MR. TURNER-Any questions? MR. PHILO-How does remember one case nonconforming lot. that change? that go, with the nonconforming lot? I on Fuller Road we voted on because it was a This was a farm when I was a kid. How does MR. TURNER-Th is doesn't change. owns both lot s. This is a Single Family. He - 11 - ~' MR. PHILO-I mean, that property was classified as a farm, where he is right now, the property I visited. Don't tell mè no. I lived there when I was a kid. MR. TURNER-I know, Tommy. It might have been then, but it's not now. It's not now. It's residential. It's a Single Family Residential zone. MR. PHILO-If that was classified as a farm, is it classified as a farm now? MR. TURNER-No. MR. PHILO-Please e~plain one thing to me on this, Ms. Eggleston's property up on Fuller Road? remember this MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. PHILO-I made a mistake on that, and I know I did, because I didn't know it was a nonconforming lot. MR. TURNER-That was a pree~isting, nonconforming lot of record, in a Land Conservation 10 Acre Zone. She could not buy any additional property to increase the size of her lot. She was locked into what she had, and the only reason that she came to us was for the area variance for all the setbacks, because the setbacks were 100 all the way around. That was the only reason. This is a use variance. This is for a use that's not permitted in the zone. MR. PHILO-Okay. I didn't understand that, Ted. Thank you. MR. THOMAS-How many people a day do you e~pect to come in to your shop? MR. MYHRBERG-Probably one or two. MR. THOMAS-Just one or two? MR. MYHRBERG-If I'm lucky. MR. THOMAS-That's all I have. MRS. EGGLESTON-Do you occupy this dwelling yourself, or are there apartments in it? It's a large dwelling. MR. MYHRBERG-My house? MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. MR. MYHRBERG-No. Mine is the big house. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes, but you live in that, just you and your wife? MR. MYHRBERG-Yes. No, my wife and I and my son. MRS. EGGLESTON-Okay. MR. MYHRBERG-He's there temporarily. MRS. Yes. EGGLESTON-Yes. So there's no income for the house itself. Where are your antiques now? Do you have antiques now? MR. MYHRBERG-I've years. I should smart. been collecting, maybe, for the last five have been for fifty years, if I'd have been MR. TURNER-Mr. Myhrberg, I' m in position, but this has to do with circumstances that are described complete sympathy with your the use of the land, not the here, and the use variance - 12 applies to what this land can be used for, and this land is designated Single Family Residential, period. Businesses are not allowed there. It's the most sacred zone in the Town of Queensbury. You are using it as residential. You can realize a reasonable return if it's used as zoned. Correct? MR. MYHRBERG-Yes. MR. TURNER-This lot is not unique, and it's not due to the unreasonableness of the Ordinance. Is there an adverse effect on the neighborhood character? Could be, couldn't be. MR. PHILO-What do you plan to use for your antique shop, the barn out in back? MR. MYHRBERG-Yes. MR. TURNER-The barn. MR. PHILO-That's already, right? the one that's right in the bac k , MR. MYHRBERG-Yes, the garage. MR. PHILO-There wouldn't be any change in the structure, right? MR. TURNER-It's a change of use, not change of structure. That's my position on the property, that he's using it as zoned. He can realize a reasonable return if he uses it as zoned. Therefore, the use va ria n c e, tom e , i s not per m i s sib 1 e. An y 0 the r questions? If there aren't any, I'll open the public hearing. I'll open the public hearing. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED NO COMMENT PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED MR. THOMAS-I've got a question. zone classification is SFR-20. On the application, it says the MR. TURNER-Twenty thousand square feet. Family, Page 17967. It's under Single MR. THOMAS-SFR-20. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. THOMAS-But what he's seeking relief from 179-19D? MR. TURNER-No. It shouldn't be. It should be 179-20D. MR. THOMAS-Yes, 20D. MR. TURNER-Yes, that's right. Any further discussion? MR. THOMAS-Yes. Under 179-20D(2} (e), it states, Home Occupation. MR. TURNER-Yes. That's not Home Occupation. MR. THOMAS-Well, would a Home Occupation be a business? MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. THOMAS-Isn't this a business? MR. TURNER-He wants a sign. MR. THOMAS-Well, we'll worry about that in the next application - 13 - request. MR. TURNER-That makes it a business. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-Mr. Thomas, if you look up the definition of Home Occupation, it excludes any type of sale of service or goods. MRS. EGGLESTON-In the front, Chris, look in the front of your book. There's a definition of Home Occupation. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-The definition of Home Occupation excludes the sale of a service or goods on the premises of a Home Occupation. It would exclude it. So if you're proposing an occupation that services the public or sells them any goods, or keeps any stock in trade, that's not considered a Home Occupation, according to the definition. MR. PHILO-Just take a look at the business that he wants there. He wants to sell antiques. There's a used cars over in the back. They have new car sales, Queensbury Motors. MR. TURNER-That's way up the road. MR. PHILO-They have a paint shop. MR. TURNER-That's way up the road. That's up or more. Yes, it is. There's three houses, three houses between him and Queensbury Motors. the road 500 feet I think, two or MR. PHILO-There's Junior Greene's, peopl e. I went and talked to those MR. MYHRBERG-Those are both rental houses now. MR. PHILO-Rental houses? So it's rental property. street there's WBZA Radio Station. Across the MR. TURNER-Yes, it's been there. MR. PHILO-Then down the road you've got a block plant. MR. TURNER-It's been there. MR. PHILO-Then you've got a Chiropractor, Lockhart's. MR. TURNER-But that's Light Industrial on that side of the road. MR. PHILO-Well, then he's the only one back for another 1,000 feet. MR. TURNER-Residential's on the other side of the road. MR. PHILO-Within 20 feet, the width of the road, it changes. MR. TURNER-The road's a boundary line. lines generally go, on the roadways. That's where the boundary MR. PHILO-Well, I stopped and I looked at the place, and I looked around. I can't see where there's any difference between, you throw a stone and go into a Chiropractor's Office, throw another stone and you can go into a radio station, throw it heavy, I can get down to a block plant, throw it light, and I can go into an aut omot i ve. MR. TURNER-You'd have to have a pretty good arm to hit the Chiropractor, or hit the block plant. You might hit the radio station, Tom, that's just across the road. MRS. EGGLESTON-Did you notice what's on either side of him, Tom? - 14 - --_._--"._._-~..- ----<~ MR. PHILO-Yes, I did. MR. TURNER-Residential. MRS. EGGLESTON-What's there? MR. PHILO-A little house, they moved it in, it was it. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes, but is it residential? they moved in it was, I remember when a modular home. Junior Greene bought MR. PHILO-They've all moved out and they're renting them. rental property now. It's MR. TURNER-It's still residential. MR. PHILO-But that's the only two in the whole area. MR. TURNER-Tom, all the houses there are residential, from the City line. MRS. EGGLESTON-From him into the City. MR. TURNER-From him, north, are all commercial. MR. TURNER-No. MRS. EGGLESTON-On the other side of the street are. MR. TURNER-On the other side, not on his side. MRS. EGGLESTON-Not on his side of the street. MR. PHILO-The corner, Queensbury Motors is on his side. MR. TURNER-Yes, but he's 500 feet from them. MR. PHILO-That's commercial, and that goes right back around to adjoin his property. MR. TURNER-He's 500 feet from them, to the corner. MR. PHILO-Are they 150 foot lots? MR. MYHRBERG-No. MR. PHILO-How much are they? MR. MYHRBERG-Probably 400 feet, no I'm not even 500 feet from Quaker Road. MR. PHILO-I didn't think so, not from Quaker Road. MR. MYHRBERG-And Queensbury must be 200 feet, so I'm probably 200 feet from. MR. PHILO-Queensbury's property? MR. MYHRBERG-Yes, but he owns both of those houses, too. MR. PHILO-Queensbury Motors owns both of those houses. MR. MYHRBERG-That's fine, Tom, but the boundary has to go some place. You just can't scratch it out. The boundary's the boundary. MR. PHILO-It's all commercial. is that right? Irv Woodin bought those houses, MR. MYHRBERG-No, Sherm Parrot. 15 - MR. PHILO-Sherm Parrot, the one that owns the place now. MR. MYHRBERG-The only other people are south of me, and they have no objections to it. MR. TURNER-It's not so much the neighbor's, Mr. Myhrberg. It's that you can't prove a hardship. You are using it as a residential. You live there. You can realize a reasonable return if it's used as zoned, and that's the criteria you have to have to meet, if you could prove different, that would be a different story, but it is a residential zone. You just can't allow businesses in a residential zone. MR. PHILO-The hardship, the way I see it, the social security, he's got that, plus whatever he can make off. MR. TURNER-Tom, I know, but the hardship applies to the land. It doesn't have anything to do with anything personal. This is land use. Nothing else. Okay. Motion's in order. MOTION TO DENY USE VARIANCE NO. 62-1993 GUSTAF H. MYHRBERG, Introduced by Fred Carvin who moved for its adoption, seconded by Joyce Eggleston: The applicant is seeking relief from Section 179-20D, Permitted Uses in a Single Family Residential zone, and I feel he has not shown that a reasonable return is possible for the land as it is currently zoned. There are not any unique circumstances with this lot, and there is no unreasonableness to the Ordinance. If we granted this variance, I believe there would be an adverse effect on the neighborhood character. Duly adopted this 28th day of July, 1993, by the following vote: MR. THOMAS-Before you vot e, I'd like to read to the Board the last sentence of the definition of Home Occupation. It states, also small scale crafters, such as knitting, sewing, woodworking, and art work shall be appropriate uses. Thus, I think antiques could be loosely interpreted as art work, and woodworking, would be part of that, I think, also. MR. TURNER-He's selling a product. He's selling a product, and he wants a sign variance to go with the business. MR. THOMAS-The sign variance is separate. something different, that's MR. TURNER-Yes, but it goes with the application. MR. THOMAS-It's a separate application. MR. TURNER-That might be, but it still goes with the application. MR. THOMAS-Well, we can always deny the sign variance, but in the last definition, the last sentence of Home Occupation, Woodworking and art crafts shall be appropriate. So when the members vote, I would think about that. MR. TURNER-Small scale crafters, such as knitting, sewing, woodworking and art work. That's incidental to the residence. That's within the residence. That's what Home Occupation says. A domestic or service activity carried on by members of a family residing on the premises, but excluding bed and breakfasts, beauty shops, barber shops, music school, convalescence, nursing homes, tourist homes, massage or other establishments offering service to the general public provided that there are no signs or any display that would indicate, from the exterior of the building, that it is being utilized, in whole or in part, for any purpose other than that of a dwelling provided. Also, that there is no stock in trade sold upon the premises on a regular basis, 16 - not more than one person is employed, who is other than a member of the family, residing on the premises and no mechanical equipment is used, except such as is customary for purely domestic or household purposes. The keeping of not more than two roomers or borders shall be considered a permitted Home Occupation, and the other part I read. MISS HAUSER-So are they saying that if somebody does some type of handicraft work, they can do that work in the house, but they cannot sell it from the house? Because they're saying, and cannot be sold upon the premises? MR. TURNER-Yes, no stock in trade. MISS HAUSER-So in other words, the person can work in the house, but they can't. MRS. EGGLESTON-On a regular basis, yes. MISS HAUSER-And what's the regular basis? MR. CARVIN-Every day. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes, where you have traffic in and out every day. I think it's a difference of where you have an overturn of people coming and going. MR. TURNER-Okay. V ot e. AYES: Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Carvin, Mrs. Eggleston, Miss Hauser, Mr. Turner NOES: Mr. Thomas, Mr. Philo SIGN VARIANCE NO. 63-1993 TYPE: UNLISTED SFR-20 GUSTAF H. MYHRBERG OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE 39 EVERTS AVENUE APPLICANT IS PROPOSING TO PLACE A WALL SIGN ON AN ACCESSORY STRUCTURE, DENOTING THE NAME OF HIS PROPOSED BUSINESS AND IS SEEKING RELIEF FROM SECTION 140-6B(3) (b), WHICH STATES THAT SIGNS ATTACHED TO A BUILDING SHALL BE ALLOWED IN C AND M ZONES ONLY. TAX MAP NUMBER: 108-1-29.2 LOT SIZE: 1.38 ACRES SECTION 140-6B(3) (b)1 GUSTAF MYHRBERG, PRESENT MR. TURNER-Mr. Myhrberg, since you have an application here for a Sign Variance, would you agree to withdraw the application? MR. MYHRBERG-Sure. MR. TURNER-Okay. Sign Variance No. 63-1993, Gustaf H. Myhrberg, has been withdrawn by the applicant. USE VARIANCE NO. 64-1993 TYPE: UNLISTED SFR-1A PETER AND WANDA ROZELL OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE LEFT (NON-LAKE) SIDE OF REARDON ROAD APPLICANT IS PROPOSING TO CONDUCT A HOME OCCUPATION (HAIR CUTTING) IN A PROPOSED STORAGE STRUCTURE ATTACHED TO THE PRINCIPAL BUILDING AND IS SEEKING RELIEF FROM SECTION 179-7, HOME OCCUPATION (DEFINITION), WHICH EXCLUDES BEAUTY SHOPS AS A PERMITTED HOME OCCUPATION. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) DATE: 7/14/93 TAX MAP NUMBER: 45-1-7 LOT SIZE: 1.43 ACRES SECTION 179-7 MARK SCHACHNER, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT MRS. EGGLESTON-And the Warren County they approved, "With the conditions conform to Code for this particular Attachment A be strictly adhered to." Planning Board returned, that the septic system Home Occupation and that STAFF INPUT - 17 - ~ Notes from Staff, Use Variance No. 64-1993, Peter and Wanda Rozell, Meeting Date: July 28, 1993 "ADDRESS OF PROPERTY: left (non-lake> side of Reardon Road SUMMARY OF PROJECT: Applicant is proposing to conduct a Home Occupation (hair cutting> in a proposed storage structure attached to the principal building. CONFORMANCE WITH USE/AREA REGULATIONS: 1. Applicant is proposing to conduct a Home Occupation (hair cutting> in a proposed storage structure attached to the principal building and is seeking relief from Section 179-7, Home Occupation (definition>, which excludes beauty shops as a permitted Home Occupation. REVIEW CRITERIA: 1. IS A REASONABLE RETURN POSSIBLE IF THE LAND IS USED AS ZONED? Applicant believes that the restriction of beauty shops as a Home Occupation permitted use, limits the reasonable return of the land as zoned. 2. ARE THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE LOT UNIQUE AND NOT DUE TO THE UNREASONABLENESS OF THE ORDINANCE? Applicant believes that the uniqueness of the lot is due to the existence of the structure for the proposed project and the availability of parking. 3. IS THERE AN ADVERSE EFFECT ON NEIGHBORHOOD CHARACTER? Applicant believes that the variance will not effect the neighborhood character as the use is limited and will not be noticed by the neighbors (see attachment A>. STAFF COMMENTS AND CONCERNS: Staff has no further comments regarding this project." MR. TURNER-Okay. Mr. Schachner. MR. SCHACHNER-Thank you, Mr. Turner. I'm Mark Schachner from Miller, Mannix and Pratt. I'm the attorney representing Peter and Wanda Rozell, who are the applicants in this matter. I guess, knowing this Board reasonably well, and having also sat through the previous application and the discussion about it, I guess what I would like to do first is to urge you to take a step back and remember your function. You're the Zoning Board of Appeals. There are seven of you. You're a creature of statute, so to speak, in New York Stat e. You're governed by New York State Town Law Section 267, which authorizes the Queensbury Town Board to appoint you as a Zoning Board. There are standards, in law, and you have a very good understanding of those standards, for granting of variances, but the standards are not totally rigid. If the standards were totally rigid, there wouldn't need to be a Zoning Board of Appeals. There would be one Zoning Officer, and he would have a little checklist, and if you didn't meet a rigid standard, he would say, if you met it, he would say yes, and if you didn't meet it, he would say no, and there wouldn't be a need for a Zoning Board of Appeals, and there sure as heck wouldn't be a need for a seven member Zoning Board of Appeals. Certain applications fall more squarely within the standards in Town Law Section 267, more than others. Some, you have to look at which standards are most applicable, and which standards are perhaps not as applicable. This application, I think, is very simple to understand, as far as what the applicant seeks. The application involves no external change whatsoever to the property. It's strictly a very limited, part time, internal business that Mrs. Rozell intends to run. She currently runs one in downtown Glens Falls, or in Glens Falls anyway. The property is located on Reardon Road. I assume most or all of you had a chance to visit the property. I hope you had a chance to visit the property. It was previously owned by a Mr. Johns, back in the 1960's, who we believe built the house, and in any event, ran a general store out of the house, out of the same part of the house that we're talking about using for our limited hair styling area. In 1969, Mr. Rozell's father, Peter Rozell, purchased the house, and from 1981 until 1987, Peter J. Rozell, Mechanical Contractors business was operated out of this very same house. These are the photos, I assume, Mr. Turner? MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. SCHACHNER-Good. That business was operated in the premises until 1987. In 1987, Peter Rozell, Mr. Rozell's father, moved - 18 - f~ ~ out of the premises, and Peter and Wanda Rozell, the current owners, occupants and applicants, bought the house in lqqØ. It's not a complicated application. The Warren County Planning Board felt that as long as we adhered to, what they called attachment A, which is the portion of the application that was just read, that it would have no negative impact whatsoever. We've got very significant input from just about all the neighbors, which I'd like to give you. It's up to you whether you want it now or during the public hearing portion, Mr. Turner. It's up to you. MR. TURNER-We'll take it at the public hearing. MR. SCHACHNER-Okay. Fine. I guess, if that's the case, then I suggest, perhaps, we have the public hearing, and then I'd like to speak again after the public hearing. MR. TURNER-All right. application. I'll now open the public hearing on this PUBLIC HEARING OPENED MARGARET WALLACE MRS. WALLACE-My name is Margaret Wallace. I've lived on Reardon Road since lQ7Q, and I'm in favor of this use variance. MR. PHILO-How far do you live from the applicant? MRS. WALLACE-About four lots. You have to come by my house to get to their house, and I was never inconvenienced or troubled by any of the traffic by the former business. MR. TURNER-The former business was an office more than anything, right? MRS. WALLACE-I don't know. I didn't notice it was there, to tell you the truth, even though the traffic all went by my house. MR. TURNER-Okay. Anyone else? MR. SCHACHNER-What I would like to submit, as part of the public hearing, is a petition which has been signed by, I believe, lEI or 17 immediate neighbors, as well as a letter from Carolyn Clary, a letter from Jane Barber, and a letter from Christine and Patrick Seeley. Do you want me to read those into the record, or just submit them? MR. TURNER-We'll read them. further comment? We'll take them. Do you have any MR. SCHACHNER-Yes, I have a lot of further comment s, thought you might want to read those into the record first. up to you. but I It' s MR. KARPELES-Where is this going to be? Is it going to be in the house, or is it going to be in the garage? MR. SCHACHNER-It's in the attached garage portion of the house. If you look at the photo, there's also a detached garage in the back portion of the lot. That is not where this is going to be. PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED CORRESPONDENCE MRS. EGGLESTON-Okay. A letter from Christine and Patrick Seeley, Reardon Road, "Since we are unable to attend the meeting tonight that will consider the Rozell's request to conduct a Home Occupation, we are responding with a letter. The Rozells have done nothing but improve their property on Reardon Road. They 19 - are good neighbors that enjoy our quiet street, and they take great pride in their home. Besides neighbors, we are also clients of Wanda's. She limits her appointments to week day, day time hours. We have every confidence the Rozells would not do anything that would disturb the tranquility of our neighborhood." And a letter from Jane Barber, Reardon Road. "As land owners of much of the land surrounding the Rozell property, we have absolutely no objections to Wanda Rozell conducting a home occupation, hair cutting, etc., in their home. The Rozells are friendly, cooperative neighbors, and whatever home occupation that is conducted will be done in a manner that will not interfere with their neighbors or the neighborhood as it exists. My husband and I wish them the very best." And a letter from Miller, Mannix, by Mark SChachner, "With respect to the application of Peter and Wanda Rozell to operate a limited home occupation from their residence, a question has been raised regarding the need for a variance from the prohibition of operation of any business from a private parking garage. We believe that this is not necessary because the existing attached garage structure will undergo interior remodeling so that it is suitable for the proposed use, and it will no longer be used to shelter any private automobiles." And an attached statement. "I, Wanda Rozell, would like to put a hairstyling station in my home. I propose to conduct a part time business with no employees. There will only be one customer at a time, just as I run my present business. There will be no sign or changes to the outside of my house or neighborhood. No clients, nights or weekends, as I will stipulate in my use variance in which I'm presently applying for." And it's signed by Chris Seeley, Reardon Road, Pat Seeley, Susie Washburn, Box 187, Queensbury, Carolyn Clary, Reardon Road, Thomas Clary, Don and Rita Frasier, Reardon Road, Irma 01 sen, Reardon Road, Wendy Saval, Reardon Road, Jane Barber, Reardon Road, Robert Barber, Reardon Road, Sarah Story, Reardon Road, Robert Story, Reardon Road, Donna Hearly; Addison Vannier, Reardon Road, Edmund Wagner, Pat Ellenwood, Dorothy Hunt, Sandy Wilsy, Margaret Wallace, and Mark Schachner. MR. TURNER-How many on that list are her clients? MR. SCHACHNER-Two, just wrote that letter. Pat and Chris Seeley, the one's that MR. TURNER-Okay. MR. SCHACHNER-I guess I'd like to discuss some of the unique features of this application now. It seems to me that we've identified seven things that are unique about the property and the structure that justify granting of the variance. The first one is, we already have the separate entrance to the house that will be utilized by the business. So there's no external renovation needed to have a completely separate entrance. There's no security issue. There's no people running into each other, if you're visiting the Rozells as a friend or neighbor, versus if you're there to get your hair cut. As the pictures depict, there's already a completely separate parking area. In fact, there are two separate entrances into the Rozell's property, and there's a completely separate parking area that can be used solely for the customers, or the clients that are coming to have their hair cut, and I want to, again, remind the Board that this is by appointment only. No driveby. No sign. No advertisement. Just appointment only. There is a separate garage, detached garage, which is in one of your photos, on the rear portion of the property, and that's what the Rozells use for their own personal use and their own personal vehicles. So there will be no mixing of the two garages, if you will, or two uses. In fact, one garage wi 11 no longer be a garage. There's a separate hair cutting area with a sink already in the portion of the premises that we're talking about using. So there's not even a need for additional new plumbing. The Zoning Ordinance - 20 - definition of Home Occupation allows up to one employee outside of the immediate family. We will have zero. No employees outside of the family, only Mrs. Rozell. Number Six, unlike every other use variance application that we're aware of, that you've dealt with in the past, this one will be totally invisible, inaudible. You can't here it. You won't know it's going on from the outside. There's zero external impact. Lastly, we're talking about strictly limited operation, in terms of number of customers, in terms of day time only, week days only, no night time, no weekend. All unique features, especially when taken together. I reviewed, very closely, the last Home Occupation use variance that I'm aware of, that you all granted, and that was the application of Robert and Carolyn Rudolph for a Bed & Breakfast. You've actually been through the mill twice on this one that I know of, maybe more. Once, a year ago, when it was initially granted, and once, very recently, I don't remember exactly when, when you renewed the application. I guess that was back in February, if I'm not mistaken. That was a situation with a Home Occupation, where the neighbors in Butternut Hill had numerous objections. There were seven concerns that were identified by the neighbors and by your Board, but the variance for the home occupation was granted. The seven concerns that were identified, and this is all in lurid detail in your lengthy minutes, and I won't bore you with the details, but I'll summarize very quickly. The neighbors, and some of the Board members, identified potential traffic problems on Ridge Road with the Bed & Breakfast. There was a concern from the neighbors about strangers wandering through the neighborhood overnight, because they're staying over in the Bed & Breakfast. There was a concern about parking, because the driveway, at this particular facility could only accommodate four or five cars, and there were three children of the applicant, and there were also some clients, and we didn't know how we were going to fit the parking. There was a concern about noise, because some other Bed & Breakfast in Town had weddings run at it, and parties, and there was a concern about noise and security at the swimming pool after hours. There is a sign, and was proposed to be a sign for the Bed & Breakfast on the mailbox identifying this as a commercial operation. There was a general concern raised by several neighborhood residents in the Butternut Hill area, about the increased intensity of the use in the neighborhood, and there was very significant neighbor opposition. In the face of those seven things that I think are weaknesses in that application, this Board granted a temporary use variance for one year, sort of a trial basis. I'm not sure, to be honest, if when you did that, New York State law allowed that to happen, but since then New York State law has been amended to expressly allow you to grant temporary variances. In our application, we have no traffic concern whatsoever. We're talking about one customer at a time, driving up Reardon Road, parking at the Rozell's house, to get his or her hair cut. We have no night time or weekend use whatsoever. None. No security issue. Nobody staying over. Nobody wandering the neighborhood. We have no drive-by customers. We have no goods being purchased on the premises. That's not so much different than the Bed & Breakfast as your antique situation that you just ruled on. We have no parking difficulty at all, because we have a total separate parking area. We have no noise whatsoever. We have no sign whatsoever. We have no increase in the existing intensity that's allowed of this building. If the Rozell's were parents of a teenager, or a couple of children, the use of this building would far surpass the use that's going to happen when Mrs. Rozell operates her limited hair cutting establishment, and lastly, but very significantly, instead of neighborhood opposition, we have every single person we spoke with was in support of this application. Every single person says there's not going to be a negative impact on the neighborhood. For all those reasons, we think that this is an application that you need to be somewhat flexible on as a Zoning Board of Appeals. That's why you're here. You're a Zoning Board of Appeals because it's not easy. It's not an - 21 automatic checklist. For example, the hardship criteria doesn't apply as well to a home occupation discussion as it does to some other types of uses or some other types of applications. On hardship, I will say that the premises are currently yielding zero dollars. Obviously, the premises will yield some income when they're used by Mrs. Rozell for hair cutting, but I'll grant you that that particular standard doesn't apply as easily as it does to some other types of uses, but that's why you're here. That's why you're a Zoning Board, and that's why there are seven of you, and that's why your job is tough sometimes. MRS. EGGLESTON-I have a question. Since you so elaborately explained our job, which you did last time you were here, by the way, I think we've got that down pat by now. I'm going to go back to Section 267C. I want you to look at this with me, and I want you to tell me, I want you to answer these things. You ask questions of us, okay. It starts with B, on the second page. MR. SCHACHNER-267B, I'm sorry, or C? MRS. EGGLESTON-267C, Use Variance. enacted in July of '92, Area Variance and MR. SCHACHNER-Wait. Proceedings. Stop right there. 267C is called Article 78 MRS. EGGLESTON-No. This is what they gave us for what the criteria is for area variances. MR. CARVIN-Area and use variance. MRS. EGGLESTON-Area and use variance. given to us by the Town. This is it right here, MR. SCHACHNER-Okay. I'm looking at New York State law. MRS. EGGLESTON-Well, lets look at Town law. I think I did say Town of Queensbury Town Law. Okay. All right. Do you have it there? MR. SCHACHNER-Yes. MRS. EGGLESTON-Okay. B, it says, "No such use variance shall be a Board of Appeals without a showing by the applicant that applicable Zoning Regulations and restrictions have caused unnecessary hardship." You haven't done that. "In order to prove such unnecessary hardship, the applicant shall demonstrate to the Board of Appeals that, 1. Under applicable zoning regulations, the applicant is deprived of all economic use or benefit from the property in question, which deprivation must be established by competent financial evidence." Do you have any? MR. SCHACHNER-Yes. MRS. EGGLESTON-You brought records property? showing income on the MR. SCHACHNER-Zero. MRS. EGGLESTON-No, no. Did you do that? MR. SCHACHNER-Yes. MRS. EGGLESTON-I want to go down through this first, then I'll let you say what you want to say. MR. SCHACHNER-I'm sorry, I thought you asked me a question. MRS. EGGLESTON-No. I asked you, did you bring financial evidence of income from the property, showing a hardship, or that they - 22 - cannot utilize the property as zoned. Did you bring any records? MR. SCHACHNER-When you say, bring, it's in our application. MRS. EGGLESTON-It says established, must be established by competent financial evidence, okay. Next, Number Two, we'll go on, then we'll go back and you can answer these things. That the alleged hardship relating to the property in question is unique, which it is not. Does not apply to a substantial portion of the district or neighborhood. The property is no different than any other piece of property on the street, not really. That the requested variance will not alter the essential character of the neighborhood, which it could. Any other one of these people that signed this application could come in and say, I'd like to have a barber shop on my property. I'll only have one customer at a time. I'd like to fix shoes on my property. I'll only have one customer at a time. They could go through the whole same criteria, and the final C says, the Board of Appeals, in the granting of use variances, shall grant the minimum variance that it shall deem necessary and adequate to address the unnecessary hardship proven by the applicant, an unnecessary hardship proven by the applicant, and at the same time, preserve and protect the character of the neighborhood, health, safety, and welfare of the community. Okay, and Number Four, that the alleged hardship has not been self-created. Okay. So now you can tell us how we, you say, now. You go through this now and you say how we meet, as a Board, which has this criteria, how we answer this criteria. MR. SCHACHNER-Okay, and I have sort of a Part A and a Part B as to how you meet it. Part A is, it's well established in New York State that, in some instances, some of the standards are more applicable than in other instances. For example, public utilities, under Case Law, not under Statute, don't have to meet the same standards, even though the law is identical, okay. Home occupations, by Definition, a Home Occupation situation is not going to fall as precisely into these standards as any other type of example. MR. TURNER-Why would we exclude beauty shops? MR. SCHACHNER-I can't answer that. MR. TURNER-Well, we did, because it's a business. MR. SCHACHNER-Okay, but that's why you need a variance. MR. TURNER-Okay. MR. SCHACHNER-If you didn't exclude need a variance. beaut y shops, we wouldn't MR. TURNER-Okay. Well, let me say this to you. In my conversations with applicant, the applicant said to me, I want to go up there because I don't want to train anybody else anymore because they stay with me two or three years and then they up and go, and leave. I want to go up there, and I want to operate out of my house a beauty shop, one person, and I said to them, that's not a hardship. That's a self-created hardship. MR. SCHACHNER-Okay. I understand your position. I said I had two parts to my answer. Part A was, as I said at the outset, the hardship criteria doesn't apply as specifically to home occupation situations, any home occupation situation, as it does to other types of use variances. MR. TURNER-This is not a home occupation. This is excluded from home occupation. You're beating around the bush now, come on. This is excluded from home occupation. MR. SCHACHNER-Okay. What would you like me to call it? You - 23 - label it, Mr. Turner. MR. TURNER-It's a business. MR. SCHACHNER-Okay. It's a business, fine. MR. TURNER-Okay. You want to put a business in a residential zone, just I ike Mr. Myhrberg. MR. PHILO-Just like this case with Myhrberg. MR. TURNER-It's the same thing. MR. SCHACHNER-No, it's not the same thing. He's got drive-by customers, and he's selling goods out of his property. MR. TURNER-She's going to have customers there from Monday to Friday, on appointment. MR. SCHACHNER-Right. MR. TURNER-Every day of the week. MR. SCHACHNER-Right, and does that sound like an antique shop to you? MR. TURNER-It's the same thing. It's a business. MR. SCHACHNER-It's a business. That's right. MRS. EGGLESTON-I would dare say the antique shop would not have as much activity as this, as the beauty shop. MR. TURNER-Generate as much traffic as that business. MR. PHILO-Same here. MRS. EGGLESTON-She's a good beautician. people. There's going to be MR. PHILO-It was all commercial all the way around that, but two houses. MR. SCHACHNER-Okay. Right now you're talking about impact on the neighborhood, right? MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. MR. SCHACHNER-Okay. The whole neighborhood says there won't be an impact. You're saying there will be. Do I understand that right? MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. MR. SCHACHNER-Could you put that on your record, please. MRS. EGGLESTON-We did that, I think. MR. SCHACHNER-Well, you probably will in your motion. I request that you put that in your motion. The second part of my response is, you asked about dollars and cents proof about financial hardship. That's very complicated if there's some income being generated. Then you need an accountant statement, or tax returns or something to show your income. MR. TURNER-Okay. MR. SCHACHNER-We have zero income. Zero. MR. TURNER-All right, Mark. It's a residence. Is that correct? - 24 - MR. SCHACHNER-Yes, it is. MR. TURNER-Bought it as a residence. Correct? MR. SCHACHNER-Not entirely, no. That's not correct. MR. TURNER-Yes, they did. Why didn't they? Now, this is after the fact. Now they're saying, we want to go up there and open a beaut y shop. MR. SCHACHNER-That's correct. MR. CARVIN-When did they buy the house? MR. SCHACHNER-1990. MRS. EGGLESTON-I thought you said '87, the father. MR. SCHACHNER-In '87 is when Peter Rozell, the father, moved out of the house. The premises were unoccupied from '87 until '90. MRS. EGGLESTON-Okay. 1990? So they've lived in it as a residence since MR. SCHACHNER-Yes. MRS. EGGLESTON-Okay. MR. CARVIN-And they bought it primarily as a residence in 1990? MR. SCHACHNER-Well, they bought it as a residence, knowing full well that it had been used commercially in the past, and with the ide a 0 f , in the f u t u r e , hop i n g t 0 be a b let 0 do wh at the y' r e applying for now, certainly, as a residence, no question as a residence as well. MR. TURNER-Okay. Anything else? MRS. EGGLESTON-I wanted Mark, though, to take this specific case, you haven't done what I asked you to do. I'd like you to take their specific set of circumstances and first say, what is the unnecessary hardship caused, what is it. MR. SCHACHNER-Okay. The hardship is, they cannot operate the only business which they are qualified to operate out of their home. They cannot yield one dollar in income from their home unless you grant them this variance. MR. TURNER-They're not supposed to because it's a residence. MR. PHILO-Yes, but can't they rent a store downtown? MR. TURNER-They have a store downtown. MR. CARVIN-She has one. MR. SCHACHNER-Yes, but downtown. you don't want to hear about the store MR. CARVIN-Yes. I was just going to ask the question. have a store downtown? Do you MR. SCHACHNER-Yes. I thought I said that, in Glens Falls. MR. CARVIN-You did. I just wanted to know where it was located. MR. SCHACHNER-On the corner of Ridge and Sanford, Hair Salon, right next to the Stewarts. Dirty Harry's MRS. EGGLESTON-Okay. How is the applicant deprived of all 25 - economic use or benefit from the property? MR. SCHACHNER-There's no economic use whatsoever unless she can get some income from cutting hair on the premises. MRS. EGGLESTON-But is a residential property supposed to generate income? MR. TURNER-It's not supposed to generate income. MR. SCHACHNER-You're asking me a question, how, I mean, lets be fair. really, MR. TURNER-Yes, but you answered it. Now I'm answering it. I said, residential property is not supposed to generate income. MR. SCHACHNER-Then why are you asking me the question? MR. TURNER-She asked you the question. MRS. EGGLESTON-I did, deprived of. because it says you're, that they're MR. TURNER-I said to you before, why would we exclude beauty shops from home occupation? MR. SCHACHNER-I haven't the faintest idea. MR. TURNER-Because it's a business. MR. SCHACHNER-Certainly, but so is every other home occupation. MR. TURNER-Okay. So businesses don't belong in residential zones. We just went through that with the last application. MR. SCHACHNER-Then why do you have a Zoning Board? MR. TURNER-That's not a hardship. There's no hardship buy a house for a residence and want to put a business a residential zone. There's no hardship there. when you in it, in MR. SCHACHNER-Tell me how you award the Bed & Breakfast its variance? MR. TURNER-I didn't vote for it. MR. SCHACHNER-How does the Board do it? How about this. How about if we offer a temporary variance, give it a try? MR. TURNER-I'll tell you reason that I'm not going bought it as a residence. and they claimed it was a why I didn't vote for it, for the same to vote for this one, is because they It was sold three times as residence, hardship. There was no hardship. MR. SCHACHNER-You're talking about the Bed & Breakfast? MR. TURNER-Yes. Crislip, which granted a variance for a Bed & had a zone for Bed & Breakfast. Bed & Breakfasts when Rudolphs they bought it as a residence. is down the road from them, was Breakfast because the Town never The Town established zones for came, and my answer to you was MR. SCHACHNER-Okay, but the Board granted a variance. MR. TURNER-They did. I didn't. MR. SCHACHNER-I understand that. MR. TURNER-Okay. Just 1 eave me out of it. I d idn' t vot e for it. I was against it, and I'm against this one for the same - 26 reason. It's a proved your case, business in a residential zone. as far as I'm concerned. You haven't MR. SCHACHNER-Okay. I'm referring to the Board, and for what it's worth, Mr. Turner, your comment s are exact I y, I have to commend your memory on this, exactly what's in the minutes, that you said. Okay, but the bottom line is, I don't want to keep beating a dead horse, but the position you're taking would mean that no Zoning Board of Appeals, or that this Zoning Board of Appeals could never, under any circumstances, grant a variance for any type of income producing use in a home, and that's not the position you've taken. MR. TURNER-No. occupation. You're questioning the definition of home MR. SCHACHNER-Well, nonpermitted use. we're questioning, we're seeking a MR. TURNER-No, but your main emphasis which excludes that. is on home occupation, MR. SCHACHNER-Not the definition. not our emphasis, but that's not it's not a permitted use. It does exclude it, but that's our emphasis. Our emphasis is, MR. TURNER-Absolutely. residential zone. No business is a permitted use, in a MR. SCHACHNER-Well, actually, some are. MR. TURNER-Incidental to the residence. MR. SCHACHNER-Well, home occupations. MR. TURNER-Is incidental to the residence, inside. MR. SCHACHNER-Okay, but we're not one, and that's why we're here. All I'm trying to say is, the way you're applying the rule, you're eliminating the need for yourselves to ever act, to ever entertain one of these applications. You don't need a Zoning Board of Appeals for this purpose, if you're going to automatically deny. MR. TURNER-No, we're not. We're entertaining the application. You're not presenting the evidence that we need to have to show that. MR. SCHACHNER-In a residential context, what could I produce that I haven't produced, in a residence? MR. TURNER-Mark, they bought the house residential. They're living in the house residential. What else have I got to tell you? MR. SCHACHNER-There's satisfy your concern. nothing That's all we could possibly I'm saying. produce to MR. TURNER-They could sell that house residential, and make an income, and make a profit. MR. SCHACHNER-We're not talking about a house that's on the market. MR. TURNER-Okay, but they could. They could. Okay. MR. SCHACHNER-Maybe yes, maybe no. MR. TURNER-When it came residential. When it goes on the market, off the market, they bought they'll sell it it as as - 27 - residential, if it doesn't go through. It's residential. MR. SCHACHNER-You don't need a Zoning Board, then, for this reason. MR. TURNER-Yes, you do. MR. SCHACHNER-Not for this particular reason. MR. TURNER-You haven't proven your case. MR. SCHACHNER-Well, there's no need for us to beat a dead horse. Are there any other questions? MR. TURNER-I don't have any. different. I just don't see it. It's no MR. THOMAS-I've got one. In the previous use, when Mr. Rozell had his mechanical business there, how many trucks went back and forth through there every day? PETER ROZELL MR. ROZELL-We own four trucks. We employed up to 40 people at once, not necessarily everybody went there in the morning, but that garage, the detached garage was full of welding machines and pipe and pipe wrenches and anything you need to do any kind of. MR. THOMAS-So you had a lot that road? of commercial traffic twice a day on MR. ROZELL-Much more than that, and out. because the driver would go in MR. THOMAS-So it was all day. There was commercial traffic all day on that road, back and forth? MR. ROZELL-Yes. MR. TURNER-When did your father start the business? MR. ROZELL-'88 or '81. MR. SCHACHNER-We have some rece i pt s and all that, for your, if you want to see receipts to show that the business was there. MR. TURNER-The use was gone, three years. MR. SCHACHNER-That's why we're here for a variance, We're not claiming that the use still exists. Mr. Turner. MR. TURNER-I know. Okay. Anything else? MR. SCHACHNER-I don't believe so, but for those who, obviously some, at least, intend to vote no, and I'd really like to hear how this case is worse than the Bed & Breakfast case for which you granted a variance. MR. TURNER-We'll appeal. make the motion, and you have the right to MR. CARVIN-Did you take a count of how many variances like this you turned down? Just out of curiosity? MR. SCHACHNER-I know that there have been several turned down. My concern, obviously, was with how we could comply with whatever rules you had considered, in the ones that have been granted. MR. TURNER-Okay. Motion's in order. I think we've got 45 days from the time they submit the application. - 28 - MR. TURNER-It hasn't happened yet. yet. The business hasn't happened MR. THOMAS-The business, but, now I get to my second point. There used to be a business there, and a commercial business, not a home occupation, a commercial business, a plumbing and heating operation, where commercial trucks and vehicles and people were in and out of there all the time. So, that would make it unique. MR. PHILO-Was that legal back running in and out of there? then, when Pete had those trucks It wasn't zoned for that then. MR. TURNER-No. MR. PHILO-Just like if I wanted to put some scaffolding in my back yard. I could get away with it until they kicked it out. MR. THOMAS-Yes, but they ran a commercial business with welders, pipes, trucks people running in and out of there all the time. MR. TURNER-Yes. legally. That might be, but I'm not sure they were there MR. SCHACHNER-How is that relevant? MR. THOMAS-That doesn't. MR. TURNER-He's asking the question. sure that that was there legally. I'm just saying I'm not MR. SCHACHNER-It's probably a I think his point is that neighborhood. preexisting nonconforming use, it didn't have any impact on but the MR. THOMAS-That it did exist, exist. whet her 1 e gal or i 11 e gal, it did MR. TURNER-All right. That's fine. MR. THOMAS-Okay. So there has been commercial use there, not home occupation. Is a reasonable return to the land use if used as zoned? Home Occupation, but here again, it's a residence. MR. TURNER-It's a residence. They bought They could sell it as a residence. it as a residence. MR. THOMAS-But, it was used as a commercial business before. MRS. EGGLESTON-Not by the applicant. MR. CARVIN-But it's been abandon for over 18 months. MRS. EGGLESTON-Abandon over 18 months. MR. SCHACHNER-Yes. The applicant was part of that the way, but your statement's correct, Mr. Carvin. abandon, then, again, we wouldn't need to be here. business, by If it wasn't MR. THOMAS-But what I'm say i ng is, you know, there was a commercial business established there at one time, and even way back when, didn't you say there was a grocery store there? MR. SCHACHNER-Yes. pr e m i s e s, yes. Originally, a general store on the same MR. THOMAS-A general store. business being there. So the lot does have a history of a MR. TURNER-That's right, but the neighborhood has changed since then. general character of It's all residential. the It' s - 30 - lakeshore property. MR. SCHACHNER-The general character of the neighborhood has been the same for years, for as long as there's been a neighborhood. MR. THOMAS-Yes. Nothing has changed. in there is the Barber's house. I think the only new house MR. SCHACHNER-The character of the neighborhood has not changed in decades, for as long as there's been a neighborhood. MRS. EGGLESTON-Would you not consider taking a grocery store or a business out of a neighborhood changing the character, and they both have been gone more than 18 months? You don't consider that changing the character of the neighborhood? MR. SCHACHNER-Because they had no impact on the neighborhood, and the n e i g h b 0 r s the m s e 1 v e s , wh 0 I i vet her e , say so. MRS. EGGLESTON-Well, you know, I find that strange. Mr. Rozell sits here and says there was 40 trucks a day, umpteen trucks. MR. SCHACHNER-He didn't say. Mrs. Eggleston, with all due respect, that's not what Mr. Rozell said. What Mr. Rozell said was that there were up to 40 employees of Peter J. Rozell, Mechanical Contractors. He then specifically said that those 40 employees did not come up the Reardon Road to thë house. MR. TURNER-Mark, you're making it sound like there was 40 there all the time. There wasn't 40 there all the time, off and on. MR. SCHACHNER-No. I'm saying, at best, there were almost never 40 there. I agree wi th you, Mr. Turner. MR. CARVIN-Mr. Chairman, I might add that the public hearing on this has been closed, and the discussion is on the motion. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. THOMAS-That's where I was, until it got taken off here, but that's the only thing, just point out those three things, the review criteria. I think the applicant has shown that they meet all three of those. MR. TURNER-Yes, but I think to take a business out of where they have a business, doing the same thing, and their house is self-created hardship. the City, move it to MR. CARVIN-I think it comes down to a vote, at this point. AYES: Mrs. Eggleston, Miss Hauser, Mr. Philo, Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Carvin, Mr. Turner NOES: Mr. Thomas AREA VARIANCE NO. 65-1993 TYPE: UNLISTED PC-1A MARK PLAZA OWNER: O.A. BOYCHUK QUAKER ROAD APPLICANT HAS EXPANDED AN EXISTING COMMERCIAL STRUCTURE RESULTING IN A TWENTY-EIGHT (28) FOOT BUFFER IN THE REAR AND NORTH SIDE OF THE PARCEL. APPLICANT IS REQUESTING A TWO (2) FOOT MODIFICATION OF A PREVIOUS AREA VARIANCE 42-1993, WHICH GRANTED THE APPLICANT TWENTY (20) FEET RELIEF FROM THE REQUIRED FIFTY (50) FOOT BUFFER BETWEEN COMMERCIAL AND RESIDENTIAL ZONES. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) DATE: 7/14/93 TAX MAP NUMBER: 63-1-1.3 LOT SIZE: 3.12 ACRES SECTION 179-72 O.A. BOYCHUK, PRESENT MRS. EGGLESTON-Warren County Planning Board returned, "No County Impact. " - 31 - STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff, Area Variance No. &5-1993, Mark Plaza, Meeting Date: July 28, 1993 "ADDRESS OF PROPERTY: Quaker Road SUMMARY OF PROJECT: Applicant has expanded an existing commercial structure resulting in a twenty-eight (28) foot buffer in the rear and north side of the parcel. CONFORMANCE WITH USE/AREA REGULATIONS: 1. Applicant is seeking a two (2) foot modification of a previous Area Variance No. (42-1993), which granted the applicant twenty (20) feet relief from the required fifty (50) foot buffer between any commercial use and a residential zone (Section 179-72). STAFF COMMENTS AND CONCERNS: Applicant has attached a letter explaining the technical problem encountered when putting in the footings for the expansion; the need to expand the structure two (2) feet, resulting in a twenty- eight (28) foot buffer in lieu of the previously granted thirty (30) foot buffer." MR. TURNER-Mr. Boychuk. Any further comment? You explained it in the letter pretty well. MR. BOYCHUK-No. MR. TURNER-Does anybody have any questions? MR. CARVIN-No. Can we just amend that previous motion? MR. TURNER-Yes. We can amend it. MR. CARVIN-Okay. MR. TURNER-We've got to go through the public hearing everything. Let me see if anybody has any comment to make. open the public hearing on this application. and I' 11 PUBLIC HEARING OPENED NO COMMENT PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED MR. TURNER-Okay. Motion's in order. MOTION TO APPROVE AREA VARIANCE NO. &5-1993 MARK PLAZA, Introduced by Fred Carvin who moved for its adoption, seconded by Chris Thomas: Which is an amendment to Area Variance No. 42-1993, by granting an extra two feet of relief from the required 50 foot buffer between any commercial use and a residential zone, under Section 179-72, thereby granting a total of 22 feet of relief from that Section, as amended. Duly adopted this 28th day of July, 1993, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Carvin, Mrs. Eggleston, Miss Hauser, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Philo, Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE AREA VARIANCE NO. &&-1993 TYPE II LC-10A DR. JOHN & CATHERINE SCONZO OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE FULLER ROAD APPLICANT IS PROPOSING TO CONSTRUCT A SINGLE FAMILY DWELLING AND A FREESTANDING GARAGE ON A VACANT LOT. APPLICANT IS PROPOSING SEVENTY-FIVE (75) FEET FOR THE REAR YARD SETBACK (NORTHEAST CORNER OF PROPOSED DWELLING) AND IS SEEKING TWENTY-FIVE FEET (25) FEET RELIEF FROM SECTION 179-13C, WHICH REUUIRES ONE HUNDRED (100) FEET FOR THE REAR YARD SETBACK IN THE LAND CONSERVATION 10 ACRE ZONE. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) DATE: 7/14/93 TAX MAP NUMBER: 127-1-5.4 LOT SIZE: 10 ACRES SECTION 179-13C - 32 - JULO VAROSI, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT MRS. EGGLESTON-And the Warren County Planning Board returned, "No County Impact." STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff, Area Variance No. 66-1993, Dr. John & Catherine Sconzo, Meeting Date: July 28, 1993 "ADDRESS OF PROPERTY: Fuller Road SUMMARY OF PROJECT: Applicant is proposing to construct a single family dwelling and a freestanding garage on a vacant lot. CONFORMANCE WITH USE/AREA REGULATIONS: 1. Applicant is proposing seventy-five (75) feet for the rear yard setback (northeast corner of dwelling) and is seeking twenty- five (25) feet rellef from Section 179-13C, which requires one hundred (100) feet for the side yard setback in the Land Conservation 10 Acre zone. REVIEW CRITERIA: 1. DESCRIBE THE PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW PLACEMENT OF A STRUCTURE WHICH MEETS ZONING REQUIREMENTS. The practical difficulty which does not allow placement of a proposed structure to meet zoning requirements rests with the physical limitation of the terrain in the rear of the parcel (see attached description, Section 13). 2. IS THIS THE MINIMUM VARIANCE NECESSARY TO ALLEVIATE THE SPECIFIC PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY OR IS THERE ANY OTHER ALTERNATIVE WHICH WOULD REQUIRE NO VARIANCE? It would appear that the relief requested is the minimum variance necessary to alleviate the specific practical difficulty as the project has been designed to address the aforementioned physical constraints and other than incurring greater building expenses, no other practical alternative is available. 3. WOULD THIS VARIANCE BE DETRIMENTAL TO THE OTHER PROPERTIES IN THE DISTRICT DR NEIGHBORHOOD? It would appear that the variance would not be detrimental to other properties in the district or neighborhood as there are no buildings near the proposed structure at the rear lot line, and proposed project is consistent with the character of the neighborhood. 4. WHAT ARE THE EFFECTS OF THE VARIANCE ON PUBLIC FACILITIES AND SERVICES? It would appear that the variance would not effect public facilities or services. STAFF COMMENTS AND CONCERNS: Staff has no further comments regarding this project." MR. VAROSI-My name is Julo Varosi. for Dr. and Mrs. Sconzo. I'm the architect and agent MR. TURNER-What's the elevation where you're going to put the house? MR. VAROSI-The house is actually on a basement and two levels. The basement really is the garage level, and the entry level, the habitable level is the first floor, second floor, and that would be around 602 foot. That's the living level, near the top of the hill, with the garage cut into the hill. The problem with the site, and I struggled with this quite a long time, and it's a belated variance, because a large part of the top of the hill falls within that 100 foot setback area, and it flattens out beautifully, and all it needs is a relief so the front will not jut out so tremendously. MR. TURNER-How long have they owned the property? MR. VAROSI-About a year, in the summer of '92. MR. PHILO-You'd have a hard time getting a fire truck up here, or any kind of vehicle. MR. VAROSI-It's about a 700 foot long road, yes. MR. TURNER-It's a drlveway. MR. PHILO-You get stuck with a four wheel drive, that's a pretty 33 - tough road. How's he gOlng in there, with a helicopter? JOHN SCONZO DR. SCONZO-Four wheel drive. MR. VAROSI-Well, it will have a bit of fill very sandy on the surface. and gravel. It's MR. KARPELES-It's a beautiful lot, really. MR. TURNER-Okay. Let me open the public hearing. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED ROBERT CHAT TAN MR. CHATTAN-My name is Robert Chattan. I'm here to speak on behalf of my mother-in-law, Mrs. Fuller, who owns the property that surrounds this on both sides, and she's in favor of him building his house there, and it is, if you've gone up there and looked at the property, it's got quite a grade up there, no doubt about it. I mean, you can see the problems that he would have if he tried to, and naturally if you're going to build up there, you want to build above the trees so that you've at least got something to look at. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. CHATTAN-The only thing we had, which we had talked over with him, was that when you go off the north side of where his house would be, is that it kind of goes, it doesn't show on the map, it goes down to a little brook, and we were just concerned that drainage went in the other direction, went toward the south, rather than the north, of however they design it. MR. TURNER-Okay. The septic and. MR. CHATTAN-Yes, that, and just general runoff, because there's a little brook there that ends up going down by Mrs. Fuller's house. It's not much more than six or eight inches wide and not much more than three inches deep. MR. TURNER-Is it dry in the summer? MR. CHATTAN-No. There's water in it now. MR. TURNER-Water in it all the time. Is that the one that's fed from that spring on the other side of the road? MR. CHATTAN-I don't think it's on the other side of the road. It's on the same side. JOHN SCONZO DR. SCONZO-The one I stream. believe you're referring to 1S a different MR. PHILO-That's just a swale, isn't it? MR. CHATTAN-Yes. There's no fish that live in it. frogs, and that's about it. There's a few MR. TURNER-Okay. All right. Thank you. Anyone else? PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED MR. TURNER-Motion's about it? in order. Does anybody have any concerns - 34 - MOTION TO APPROVE AREA VARIANCE NO. 66-1993 DR. JOHN & CATHERINE SCONZO, Introduced by Joyce Eggleston who moved for its adoption, seconded by Theodore Turner: The applicant is proposing a dwelling on his 10 acre lot with a 75 foot rear yard setback in lieu of the required 100 feet setback in the Land Conservation 10 Acre zone. This will grant relief of 25 feet under Section 179-13C. The practical difficulty limits the placement of the structure due to the topography of the land, the large hills and far back off the road, and no other place, really, to place the dwelling without incurring greater building expenses. So there would really be no other practical alternative. This appears to be the minimum relief necessary to alleviate the practical difficulty. The variance would not be detrimental to other properties in the district or neighborhood, and there would be no effects of the variance on public facilities and services. Duly adopted this 28th day of July, 1993, by the following vote: AYES: Mrs. Eggleston, Miss Hauser, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Philo, Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Carvin, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE AREA VARIANCE NO. 67-1993 TYPE: UNLISTED LI-1A ADIRONDACK COFFEE SERVICE, INC. OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE CORNER OF WESTERN AND LUZERNE ROADS APPLICANT IS PROPOSING TO CONDUCT A BUSINESS IN A PREEXISTING NONCONFORMING USE STRUCTURE. APPLICANT IS PROPOSING EIGHT (8) OFF-STREET PARKING SPACES AND IS SEEKING RELIEF FROM SECTION 179-66B, WHICH REGUIRES OFF-STREET PARKING FOR ALL BUILDINGS. (BEAUTIFICATION COMMITTEE) (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) DATE: 7/14/93 LOT SIZE: 4,730 SG. FT. SECTION 179- 66B MICHAEL O'CONNOR, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT MRS. EGGLESTON-And the Warren County Planning Board approved, "With conditions so noted from letter from Daggetts Vending." STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff, Area Variance No. 67-1993, Adirondack Coffee Service, Inc., Meeting Date: July 28, 1993 "ADDRESS OF PROPERTY: corner of Western and Luzerne Roads SUMMARY OF PROJECT: Applicant is proposing to conduct a business in a preexisting nonconforming use structure. CONFORMANCE WITH USE/AREA REGULATIONS: 1. Applicant is proposing six (6) on- street and two off-street parking spaces and is seeking relief of six (6) off-street parking spaces from Section 179-66B, which requires off-street parking for all buildings. REVIEW CRITERIA: 1. DESCRIBE THE PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW PLACEMENT OF A STRUCTURE WHICH MEETS THE ZONING REGUIREMENTS. The practical difficulty which does not allow the placement of a structure which meets the zoning requirements is that this parcel and structure are preexisting and nonconforming, with no practical space for off-street parking. 2. IS THIS THE MINIMUM VARIANCE NECESSARY TO ALLEVIATE THE SPECIFIC PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY OR IS THERE ANY OTHER OPTION AVAILABLE WHICH WOULD REGUIRE NO VARIANCE? It would appear that the relief requested is the minimum variance necessary to alleviate the specific practical difficulty and no other option is available which would require no variance. 3. WOULD THIS VARIANCE BE DETRIMENTAL TO OTHER PROPERTIES IN THE DISTRICT OR NEIGHBORHOOD? It would appear that the variance for on-street parking would not be detrimental to other properties in the district or neighborhood. 4. WHAT ARE THE EFFECTS OF THE VARIANCE ON PUBLIC FACILITIES AND SERVICES? Although the variance would permit the use of six (6) off-street parking spaces in lieu of the required on-street parking spaces, four (4) off-street parking spaces are situated on a City of - 35 - Glens Falls street (Glens Falls permits on-street parking) and two off street parking spaces would be located on a Town road, it would appear that the variance would moderately effect public facilities and services. STAFF COMMENTS AND CONCERNS: Applicant's proposed project will be located on a parcel of land which was formerly a used car lot and whose eastern boundary borders the City of Glens Falls. Project is proposing to upgrade the appearance of the lot (see attached site plan and comments from the Beautification Committee) with landscaping and a rehabbed principal building. The variance will permit the applicant to conduct a business which the applicant believes will be a benefit to the neighborhood." MR. TURNER-Is this the rehabbed building? MR. O'CONNOR-That's an example of the siding that would be put on the bui lding. MR. TURNER-That's the siding you're going to use? MR. O'CONNOR-Yes. Beautification? Mr. Turner, don't you also have a letter from MR. TURNER-We'll read it under Correspondence, later. MR. O'CONNOR-Okay. I'm Michael O'Connor from the law firm of Little & O'Connor. We're here representing the applicants, and with me is Tom Nace from Haanen Engineering and two of the principals from Adirondack Coffee Service, Jaime Hayes and Mickie Hayes. Basically, what we have is a preexisting lot, with a preexisting building on it, in an 1'1-1 zone, a building which really cannot conceivably be used under our present standards or regulations for almost any purpose, without some type of variance. What we propose here, we think, is something that is in keeping with the idea of asking for the minimum variance that we might ask for. It's a unique piece of property, different from any other property that probably you've had before you, in that it borders on the City of Glens Falls/Town of Queensbury line, and the City of Glens Falls does permit, specifically, by Ordinance, on-street parking. So we can, in part, comply with the Queensbury regulations by the parking that is provided for within the City that is permitted parking. We're here because, even with that parking, we still have to ask for your permission not to have on-site parking, and for your permission to have the two parking spots that we show that are on the Town road, or next to the Town road, Luzerne Road, and also probably because we are leasing off-site, immediately adjacent to this site, two other parking spots, or a place for two parking spots. I think Staff has indicated correctly that we will have very little impact upon the neighborhood, character of the neighborhood. We will, in fact, probably improve it, which I think is one of the reasons that the Beautification Committee welcomed our presentation. We might even improve safety, if you take a look at the map that we provide, because we are now going to have a sidewalk, which is going to run along the street boundary of Western Avenue, and the street boundary of Luzerne Road, as it fronts on our property now. Ri ght now, the peopl e do not have a s idewal k, as they wal k along that roadway. The idea of the sidewalk is to allow us to establish a curb line against which we can park. The parking spots that we propose are, according to what Tom Nace has designed, 22 feet long, and wide enough for a vehicle outside of the pavement, so that they will not interfere with traffic on the travel portions of either Western Avenue or Luzerne Road. They're longer than what typically you have in your 20 foot spot, because they are what you call parallel parking. They're not a drive-in parking spot. MR. Tom that PHILO-Mike, come up and parking? can I stop you there for a minute? Can you have show us, right here, where he proposes to put - 36 - MR. NACE-Okay. The parking, here is the edge of travel lane of Western Avenue, and the edge of travel lane of Luzerne Road. These are the parking spots, one, two, three, four, okay. This is a side lot. MR. PHILO-That's on Town property, right? MR. NACE-No. This is on City property. The City line is the same as the property line. So this is actually on City property, and that's a permitted use in the City. This would be actually on Town property, okay. This is Town right-of-way. There is still, parking, a car is somewhere between six and eight feet wide, okay. Standard parallel parking spaces are, for the in spaces, are 20 feet long, and for intermediate spaces are 22 feet long, and the width, DOT permits anything from eight feet on a very urban city street, to 10 feet on a more rural street, okay, and these are 10 feet. MR. PHILO-So, really, all these are going to be on Town property. MR. NACE-No. These are City property, and these are Town, and then these are the two leased spaces, and that's leased from Daggett's Vending, which owns this property here. MR. PHILO-How wide is this road, then? MR. NACE-This is quite wide. I don't have a scale right here, but the pavement, the travel lanes on the pavement here, I believe, are 12 foot lanes. So this is about 24 feet. There's an extra buffer, here, of almost 10 feet from the edge of the road to the edge of our parking space. So there's still, you know, we're going to be well outside where, in the normal City situation, these parking spaces would be butted right next to the travel lane. Here we have, because of the extra width of that space there, on the Town right-of-way, we have that extra buffer, that really helps from a safety aspect. MR. TURNER-Is Western Avenue 50 feet, or 75? MR. NACE-I think it varies, because of the fact that Town line. I don't think it's a fixed width. I think depending on where you are on Western Avenue. it's on a it varies, MR. TURNER-Yes. I think it does there, by Shop N' Save. MR. O'CONNOR-This is a sketch of the improvements that were made for Shop N' Save. They show three travel lanes on pavement along Western Avenue, along the portion of that intersection. MR. PHILO-Where's north? MR. NACE-North is up here. So this is Luzerne Road here. So we're right on the corner, here. Okay, and what they're showing is that turn out space for the one entrance into, this is where the Curtis, and the Liquor Store, and what have you are, in here. MR. PHILO-So what are you going to do with the house? MR. O'CONNOR-We're going to re-side the house. We're going to take the shed down, that's in the back yard, right here, but the small wood structure is going to stay there, and that's what's going to be operated as the Exotic Coffee Shop, if you will. MR. TURNER-What's the hours going to be, Mike? MR. O'CONNOR-Let me have one of the principals tell you about the hours. JAIME HAYES - 37 - MR. HAYES-I'm Jaime Hayes. Basically, it's the same type of concept that's been very popular on the West Coast, and moving East, the Espresso, Cappuccino type centers. It will not be open late. It would be morning and possibly early evening hours. That's it. It's just a very slow, casual environment, and it's basically very laid back. MR. TURNER-Evening hours, how late? MR. HAYES-I would say no later than nine o'clock, and I don't, that's the high end. I really don't think it would even be that late, but I wouldn't want to say anything that I didn't know to be true. We're not even sure, yet, what would be popular. MR. TURNER-How much structure? modification are you going to make to the MR. HAYES-We hope to do quite a bit. windows in. We want to put some nice MR. TURNER-Are you going up with it? Are you going higher with it? MR. HAYES-No. We want to improvements as far as. put a new roof, and do some dramatic MR. TURNER-New exterior walls? MR. HAYES-No new exterior walls, just more visibllity and windows and nice trim work and stuff like that. MR. TURNER-Okay. MR. HAYES-It's really a part of the environment thing, is up scale, an up scale look. of that type of MR. PHILO-Tom, can he hook into the sewer? MR. NACE-No. Plaza hooks It's too far away, and it's too shallow where the in. It's on private property, across the Plaza. MR. O'CONNOR-I think, on Western Avenue, the last one to hook in is the building next to Dr. Westfall's, and they have problems with it freezing. What was Dick Bailey's house, you've got Dr. Westfall's office, you've got an eye doctor, the eye doctor is the last one to hook in, and he has problems with it freezing from time to time. It's not deep enough in Western Avenue, and it goes north along Western Avenue. The next property, as far as I remember, because I was involved with Westfall's application, is on a septic system that the City pumps out on a regular basis, that used to be Dick Bailey's residence, but they have an obligation, apparently, if your house is within the City, to provide sewer service. They can't, physically, do it there, and I think what Tom is saying is that the Shopping Center comes off the other side of the Shopping Center. MR. PHILO-Okay. system for that, Tom, how are you going to propose then, to meet a commercial? a septic MR. NACE-Well, okay, actually, it's relatively low flow, in the septic system. I have already gone through a design. There's an existing tank there that will be inspected and verified that it's adequate, and then we've sized it, assuming that we need an all new system, we've sized an absorption field, subsurface disposal, absorption field, that takes up this area in here. MR. PHILO-Do you know what size tank that is, Tom? MR. NACE-No. I say, the existing tank, we know that it's there. We haven't inspected it yet. It would have to be inspected and - 38 ---------.-..---.--.-.- the condition and size of it verified needs to be about a thousand gallon large, it would have to be replaced. before it's reused. It tank. If it's not that MR. KARPELES-There's no way you could put parking in here? MR. NACE-Well, not on top of, with all the Codes for the septic, nobody likes to have it on top, and it's really not a good idea. MR. KARPELES-There's no way around it? You couldn't just holding tank? put a MR. NACE-No, and actually, we, at first, looked at that, because we were looking at various ways to do this, and if I put parking spaces in here, it would require that I put them in at a sort of parallel, but at an angle, and cars would have to back out, and that backing movement into the traffic would be a potential hazard that will be less than what we have here. MR. KARPELES-You're going to run aren't you? into that same probl em here, MR. NACE-Well, our idea is really that these will be for employees. At least one of these will be for the employees. other one, I doubt that it's going to get used very much, yes, that's the potential, but we've limited, by putting parallel, we've tried to make the things as safe as we can. the The but, them MR. PHILO-Okay, Tom, thank you. were wondering why you couldn't. We saw that drain fill area. W MR. O'CONNOR-One point we'd make, which we haven't, for the purpose of your record, is the property has been used for commercial purposes since memory serves us. Probably since the 1970's it's been used as used car lot, sometimes with the cars parked wall to wall, and when you look at the survey that's before you, and that's an actual survey, probably part of those cars were parked out into the road? MR. TURNER-They were right out in the road. MR. O'CONNOR-It looks very close. The lot is just a small, small lot. There really isn't much else that we can suggest, or think of. We did try and move parking spots around, as Mr. Nace indicated, and we thought that actually the neighborhood and the Town would be better served by maybe putting some better landscaping on, greening up the lot, and putting the parking on the street. Parking on the street's encouraged in the City. Where I live, on Glen Street, the State came along and painted parking spots all the way from the Town line down to Sherman Avenue, and they are used, now, by people on a regular basis. Most of those properties along that street are preexisting, and it just recognizes the fact that people are parking on the street. There's no prohibition against parking on a Town street, as long as you do not park on the pavement. What we're here for the variance for is because of the specific requirement under site plan that says, during site plan, you will show the ability to have on-site parking, and we recognize that we don't have on- site parking, although we think that we have adequate parking for the needs of the operation. MR. PHILO-Mike, Paul Naylor, has he said anything on this? Is it going to cause a hardship as far as plowing, or anything like that? MR. TURNER-We it. got a letter, but he didn't have time to look at MR. O'CONNOR-He well. We did will have time to look at it during site plan as file it on time. I've been involved in two or - 39 three applications. Apparently, his assistant's been on vacation this past month, and he sent a general letter saying that he didn't have time to look at any of the applications. MRS. EGGLESTON-How many customers will the shop accommodate at one time? MR. O'CONNOR-We're showing, and based upon the seating, tables with four chairs per table. five MRS. EGGLESTON-And is the plan just for coffee, food? or will it be MR. HAYES-Basically, the theme would be just like specialty pastries. There'll be no cooking on premises, but this is just as like a small snack item. There'll be no cooking or grill or anything on the site at all. MRS. EGGLESTON-How many employees? MR. HAYES-Just one or two. cappuccinos and espressos. They just brew coffees and MRS. EGGLESTON-And where will they park? MR. HAYES-I think we're proposing that lots that we lease from Daggett Vending, Dagget t Vend i ng. they park in one of the or propose to lease from MRS. EGGLESTON-What's going to happen to all the Daggett's Vending vehicles that are now on your property, and there's a truck, Daggett Vending. I think I counted, if I'm not mistaken, 39, from the old church to the corner, and yet they're going to give up two of their parking spaces, and their trucks, now, are in the roads. MR. O'CONNOR-We will mark off our spot, and it will be allocated to us. I think that you will probably see some improvement in the near future, also, because of some difference in operation. Adirondack Coffee, which operated out of the church building, which is on the other side of the Daggett's Vending, has now moved to Big Bay Road. So that's going to free up parking on the north end of the Daggett's building. MRS. EGGLESTON-What's going to prohibit customers from parking in front of the residences next to, on Luzerne Road? MR. HAYES-Well, we intend enforce that. I can't looking for a very very, of cars that park there. one time. to clearly mark that, and we would also say anything more than that. We're you know, there's not going to be a lot There's not a lot of customers there at MRS. EGGLESTON-What do you think about people parking in Shop N' Save and walking across the road because you don't have adequate parking. MR. HAYES-We would not encourage that. MRS. EGGLESTON-I mean, you're aware of that corner? MR. HAYES-Sure. MRS. EGGLESTON-It's a disaster at the best of times. MR. HAYES-Right. Part of the reason we thought about this idea, other than the success of it on the West Coast, is that we've had a lot of trouble, in the past, like even collecting rents from the type of businesses that might go in there, like a used car dealer. We've had trouble collecting rents, and they've not kept - 40 - '''"- ----" . up the area. You can see what kind of conditions these type of businesses have kept our property in. It just simply isn't what we want to present ourselves or have our property look like, and this is a major upgrade in our field, and it's also kind of a new and trendy concept. MR. TURNER-Is there a long along there, that Daggett linked together? range plan to Vending and update that property Adirondack Coffee are MR. HAYES-Yes. completely. Right. Adirondack has moved. We've moved MR. TURNER-I know you've moved out. MR. HAYES-And I think that they are looking for ways, now, to get a plan for that to be more of an effective, and that's no longer the perfect spot for a warehouse by any stretch of the imagination, and they recognize that. This is the beginning of what. MR. TURNER-Is there any thought given to tearing the church down, at some date, some point in time? MR. HAYES-There has been, we've had discussions with Mr. Curtis, and stuff, but that's been tabled, as of late, but we're open for suggestions there, too. I think it's an opportunity, Shop N' Save being across the street, we thought that this is an opportunity for the property to be of more value, being in a, looking nice and having a nice appearance. MRS. EGGLESTON-Well, what if your Coffee Shop grows? have more than what you anticipate? What are you with the parking, with the people? What if you going to do MR. O'CONNOR-We'd have to relocate it, if it became a real nuisance, because I think what would happen, if this did present a problem to neighbors, they'd petition the Town Board. The Town Board would prohibit parking. We've been involved in that a couple of different times in different businesses, and that's the way that they protect themselves. They post the street, and there's no parking permitted on that street in front of their properties. The best example I could give you is the application that we did for variances for the Docksider Restaurant. We posted the parking on Glen Lake Road all the way from St. Mary's Bay to Ash Drive, I believe, or it's the top of the hill anyway, and typically that's what's been done, if there is a problem that develops. We don't think that we're going to. MRS. EGGLESTON-That's a little different, though, in have a lot of on-site parking. This place has parking, except these two spots way in the back, and feel that's where the employees are going to park. that they do no on-site I've got to MR. O'CONNOR-Based upon the size of the building, and based upon the intensity of the use, we comply with what the Ordinance says that we should have, utilizing these two, four, and two spots. This is a very small building. It's not going to support that big a business. People aren't going to come in, if you go into that room, how big is the room, the inside of that room? MR. HAYES-It's aøø square feet. MR. PHILO-I wonder what they're going to get for a cup of coffee, with six parking spots? My God, Mike, I was getting five dollars a block, and it was going down the hill. MR. O'CONNOR-It's going to be fancy coffee. What's the pricing? I don't know? - 41 - f r-- MR. HAYES-It's up scale. There's no doubt about that, but it's, the same thing you see in the malls. There's not as many ln New York as there is, like in Seattle and Washington, but I attended the specialty coffee show ln Boston, and it's a very popu I ar, Gloria Jeans. It's a very popular. MR. PHILO-Give me idea how much this is going to cost? MR. HAYES-We have not even talked about that yet. We've been more or less trying to find a good use for the building. MRS. EGGLESTON-Mr. Hayes, you're are you not? very familiar with this corner, MR. HAYES-I am, since I was a little boy, yes. MRS. EGGLESTON-How can you possibly, I can't, in my wildest dreams think about a restaurant on here. I'm on that street every day. That corner is a nightmare. You can't even see, now up Luzerne Road, and you're proposing cars parking there. MR. CARVIN-Do you have any idea how many accidents have occurred there? MRS. EGGLESTON-I know for a fact, many accidents, and now you have the potential of people walking across that intersection, because, don't get me wrong, but they are going to park in Shop N' Save. There is no two ways about it. They are going to be walking across that. MR. HAYES-Well, the problem that we've had is, and I honestly believe, in being there and having watched a few of the accidents that you talk about, is that, like the used car dealership, having those cars blocking the views. The kind of people that we've had there have actually contributed to the problem. MRS. EGGLESTON-But this isn't going to help it, because your cars are still going to be parking on the street. They're going to be parking on Luzerne Road, which is narrow. When you come around that corner, that Luzerne Road is narrow, that entrance, and you're going to have to swing over, almost into the other lane to get around these cars. You know they never park. MR. NACE-Can I address that for a second? If you look at the parking, there are a couple of things that come to mind. First of all, at an intersection of a city streets, or the type of situation we have here, DOT, which regulates the design of roads in the State, says that you've got to be, the first parking space has to be back from the intersection, back from the edge of the intersection 20 feet, okay, in order to provide a safe intersection. Now that's in a case where those parking spaces are butted right up against the travel lane on both sides. Now, on one side here we have an extra, almost 10 feet between the travel lane, and on the other side we have an extra two or three feet to the parking space, and we've used the maximum, DOT suggests the parking width of eight to ten feet. We've used 10 feet for the actual parking width. So that car is, if he parks over within a foot of the curb, he's only going to stick out there about seven or seven and a half feet. The other thing is that the City has recognized, in their Parking Ordinance, that this is a dangerous intersection, and they've requested, or required, a 50 foot setback, okay, on the main road, on Western Avenue, a 50 foot setback to that first space, and we've complied with that. So that's two and a half times what DOT requires. I've gone out there and personally parked a car here and here and wal ked up and down the street, in both lanes, or at the edge of the lanes, to see what site distance was going to be like, and see what cars you could and couldn't see, and quite frankly, it will be a good deal better with this situation than it has been in the past, with all the used cars parked out in here. He had 42 - cars, I can remember cars 1 i ned up, front end, i nt 0 that, toward the building, which means they would have had to stick out almost to the edge of the travel lane. MR. TURNER-Okay, and further discussion? Any further questions? MR. THOMAS-The only thing I've got is, that 50 foot, Code, what's going to stop somebody from parking in as per City that 50 foot? MR. O'CONNOR-Signage. They will put up a sign, no parking from here to corner, the same as they do on every other intersection, where it is in effect. MRS. EGGLESTON-Where will their signs on the building go, for advertising for their business? MR. HAYES-Again, that's not really a part. MR. O'CONNOR-Our intention is to comply with Sign Ordinance, to ask for a variance on the sign. If you follow what Mr. says, you have a better line of vision with this proposal what you have with the present use, and that's the point we're trying to make. not Nace then that MR. TURNER-Well, the use is gone, now, right? MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes, it's empty now. MR. TURNER-The use is gone. MR. O'CONNOR-It's not gone yet, no. It was there a month ago. It has seventeen months to be replaced. If that's the necessity, and that's the type use that this Board thinks is better served for that property, then maybe that's what they've got to do, put another used car junkyard in there. Their trying to upgrade the property, improve it. We've got to do it within the guidelines of the Ordinance. MR. HAYES-Mrs. Eggleston is right. I mean, that has been a blockage of site down that road. We're in a situation where, obviously the owners of Adirondack and the people that are involve are going to force me to generate some kind of income from that building, and this was my idea, being that it's so low impact, as far as the people that are involved, and the amount of traffic that's going to be associated with that building. MR. TURNER-Okay. Lets see what the publ ic has to say. The public hearing is now open. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED GENE DUCHANT MR. DUCHANT-Gene Duchant. We live right directly next door, Christine Grigsby's house. We've lived there since 1987. If you look at your topographical map, on Luzerne Road, they propose to put two parking spaces. I park in front of my mailbox, not very often, but between my mailbox and the road, you're in the road, and for them to park on that corner, between the sidewalk they propose and the road, I don't see how they're go i ng to do it, and I have to back out of my driveway every day, and those cars will be sitting right there. You can't even look up the road or anything. Even with the used car lot there, it wasn't too bad, because they were pulled all the way up to the building. You were look i ng over, maybe, a hood of a car or someth i ng. That's not so bad, but when you've got a car parked, and you're facing it, you've got to look through the whole car, on that part, and I don't see how they're going to park on Western Ave, either, because they've got three lanes going into Shop N' Save. They've got the slow down lane, to turn in. So there's three lanes - 43 ---- there, and they're going to put another row of cars there? I just don't see how there's enough room. There's no measurements here for the road. They should have put measurements on the road, so you knew exactly how far it was from one side to the other, but there's noth i ng here, and they're go i ng to put landscaping in the front there. You're not even going to be able to, when you pull up to Luzerne, the intersection of Luzerne and Western, to see down Western Ave, you're not even going to be able to see down it with all those cars parked there. I don't see how it's possible. I mean, it's great they're going to fix the building up, but to park like that, and to have five tables, four at a table. You have counter space, too? MR. HAYES-No. MR. DUCHANT-No counter space? But that's 20 people. MR. TURNER-When you come out of Luzerne Road, as they've got proposed there now, look at that map right there, and you look down West ern Avenue, and you look north, or west, if you look west, you're going to come out here. You've got a line of sight that looks right down here, because I just came down there today, and you can see down a lot farther than you could before with the cars taken out of there. MR. DUCHANT-Absolutely, and he pulled those cars directly up to the building, boom. MR. TURNER-Yes, he did. MRS. EGGLESTON-Ted, when you're out in the intersection see down Western Avenue, but not until you've pulled out i nt ersect ion. you can into the MR. TURNER-You've got to come right up to here to see. MR. DUCHANT-But I mean, he pulled his cars all the way to the building. These are footage away from the building, and they're sideways, but still, I mean, they're still six foot wide, and a car parked length wise, pulled all the way to the building is 12 foot long, and they're going to be way in the road. I don't see how they wouldn't be. I know they said their setbacks are right, but I don't see any measurements for the road, to tell us how much room is left on the road for three cars to pass down. That's all I've got to say. I could care less if there was a business there. That's great, but, I mean, you just can't park 1 ike that. Thank you. MR. TURNER-Okay. Who wishes to be heard next? CHRISTINE GRIGSBY MS. GRIGSBY-Christine Grigsby. I live at the same house he does, and exactly what he's saying, I mean, there's no feasible parking there, and if you've been down the road, you know, and I've lived there seven years, and I've witnessed, I'd say, 25 accidents on the corner, and that's in a very short time, and to put a business like that there, I don't care about the business. The used car dealer that was there, the last used car dealer, did a very good job. He had the trees taken down. He had all of his cars pulled up. It didn't bother me at all. The fear here is going to be the public, and it's going to be the people getting out of their driveway, and the public are the ones that are going to get hurt here. The business doesn't bother me. I've lived next to a business. I've lived there seven years, but with this parking, and this type of business, I just can't see the feasibility. I just wanted to let you know my view. The public is going to be the one that's hurt. Thank you. MR. TURNER-Thank you. - 44 - -"' -. MR. PHILO-Tom, can we ask you a question up here a minute? All right, you've got from this point of this building down here, is about 50 feet? MR. NACE-This is what's scale, again, this is 10 scale, that's, yes, approximately 50 feet. MR. PHILO-I was just taking 10 here, and I was trying to go the same thing. Okay, 50 feet. You could get four parking spots in there easy. MR. NACE-Coming straight in. MR. PHILO-Yes. MR. NACE-Yes, you could. We tried that, back out, which I believe is dangerous, we have. but then they've got to more dangerous than what MR. PHILO-Okay. How wide is this right here? I'm trying to see how many we can get in this way. We can get three in here. MR. NACE-Well, your problem is getting in and out. maybe three across there, to come in. You'd get MR. PHILO-You could get three here too, right? MR. NACE-Not, if you put three here, you've got to get into those three. So, you're going to take all this up with circulation space to get into them. MR. PHILO-You need 30 feet from those, to swing out and come this way. MR. NACE-Okay. You need a 20 foot space, which is back to there, that's the parking space, if you put it right tight to the building, and then you need another 20 feet behind that for backing out. and coming out. So you would take up all this. This would be all blacktop to do that, for three spots. Ted, can I respond to the last comments regarding parking, because that seems to be the real issue, is the safety with the parking. The site distance, I have, with a car parked here, in this exact spot, I have personally gone to the stop bar, where you would be, if you came up to the stop bar at the stop sign on Luzerne Road, and looked up Western Avenue, to check site distance, and there is more than adequate site distance. MRS. EGGLESTON-When did you do that, Mr. Nace? MR. NACE-Two weeks ago? MRS. EGGLESTON-On what day, and at what time? MR. NACE-I'd have to check my diary. without looking at my diary. I can't tell you right now MRS. EGGLESTON-Sunday, when. MR. NACE-No, no. I did it. MRS. EGGLESTON-Right at the peak traffic times you did all of this, and walked in the? MR. NACE-Yes. In order to get out onto Luzerne Road, I had to wait a couple of minutes to get a blank space to walk out on Luzerne Road and check it, yes. MRS. EGGLESTON-Would you agree that this is rather misleading, because this property, or this does not come way out here like this. Actually, the property itself, this is all taken by road. - 45 - MR. NACE-This is proposed, okay, and this is, right now, if you'll look here, this is existing edge of pavement right here. This line, right here, represents the travel lane on Western Avenue, okay. The gentleman was asking about, we didn't show the turn out here, and we didn't, because all we did was surveyed this edge of white pavement here, okay, or travel lane. This is the actual travel lane. The rest of this has all been paved right up to here, and right up to the building, as part of that used car dealership that was in here. If you go up into here now, it's all paved, but it's all full of weeds, but this pavement here is not, that's the edge of the travel lane. Your car's coming around here. There's a big depression there. If you try to drive through there, you're going to take your front tire out right now, unless you go very, very slowly. MRS. EGGLESTON-Up in here is where the red van is parked. see the red van there? Do you MR. NACE-Today. MRS. EGGLESTON-That's not blacktop up paved. No, it's been there right along. in there. That's not MR. NACE-The red van? MRS. EGGLESTON-The red van. It stays there consistently. Well, yes, here's a picture of It doesn't look like it ever. it. MR. NACE-That's gravel pavement. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. pavement. You said that was all pavement. That is not MR. NACE-Well, it's gravel, the edge of pavement, but drive on. Right here, if pavement out in here, from and out to the edge of the okay. Here's the, agai n, there is the whole area has been graveled to you look at that dotted line, this is here to here, and up to the building, travel lane. MR. TURNER-Okay. Let me let this lady respond. MRS. WORTH MRS. WORTH-I'm Mrs. Worth. I live right next door to Christine. I think it's great that they're trying to improve that property. It's an eyesore, but I have lived there since 1963. I have personally witnessed over 30 accidents from my living room. That is a very congested area. It was like when the car dealer was there. You would have to get right out into the middle of the intersection to see, but since that Shop N' Save has been there, it's a disaster area. To put a business there would endanger public safety, no matter how great and how beautiful it is, and you might put signs up saying you cannot park here. It's human nature. The public doesn't read these signs. She lives next door. Are they going to block her driveway, then mine. How are you going to see, coming off Western Avenue, to make a turn, right turn, without getting over into that lane? No matter how you look at it, that area, that intersection, it's a disaster. MR. TURNER-I know. You've got traffic coming from the old Luzerne Road that goes by the Carwash. MRS. WORTH-They eliminated some of it, by putting a traffic light at the end of Western Avenue, where the car dealer is. That helped that area, but Shop N' Save wasn't there. Now, you've got them coming from every direction. It takes us, sometimes, 10 minutes to get out of our driveway, and they come around that corner, which they're not supposed to, and when you think you're backed out safe, you've got to dart right back in. You can't 46 - see. It's a blind spot, but it's a dangerous, intersection, and if they, like for drainage, for system, they cannot hook into Glens Falls sewage. How go i ng to effect us, if there's a runo ff? Where is that go? Is that going to go in our back yard? dangerous a septic is that going to MR. TURNER-I couldn't answer that. MRS. WORTH-Well, we don't want that. MR. TURNER-No, I know you don't. MRS. WORTH-I mean, I think it's great that they want to improve the corner, but to put a business there, I mean, it's not only endangering us, but the public. I don't know if you're familiar with that intersection. MR. TURNER-It's bad. MRS. WORTH-It is very bad. MR. TURNER-I know. You're right. I agree with you. MRS. WORTH-And if you have them, they should. I mean, you go into a shopping the disabled. Who parks there? People walk. They're not going to pay attention can't park where they plaza, say this is for that are very able to to that. MR. PHILO-They're going to get caught doing it. MRS. WORTH-No, right, absolutely, but she will be living right next door, and I live next door to her. I mean, if they're going to block her driveway, they're going to block mine, and how are you going to go? We have to go to work very early in the morning. I mean, you take your life in your hands trying to get through that intersection, and as I say, I, personally, have witnessed the accidents. I've lived there almost 30 years. I could see them. MR. PHILO-What's your recommendation on this? MRS. WORTH-I don't know. All I say is I want to improve the property, but to put a going to effect us. It's going to effect to effect me. They're not specific on, Glens Falls sewage, and I'm not even systems. Suppose it overflows. Where is back yard? Who's going to be responsible think 'it's great they bus i ness there, it's Chris, and it's going they cannot hook into sure about the septic it going to go? In our for that? MR. TURNER-Well, the only thing they are going to do is like Mr. Nace said, they're going to check the tank and see how that is, and then they're going to put in a new subsurface absorption field. MR. PHILO-They've got room for a drain field there, 50 foot. MRS. WORTH-But they don't know how much water they're going to use? Is it going to be adequate, and for the parking spaces on the Luzerne Road, they can't park on the blacktop. So where are they going to park? If all those spaces are filled, the public wants to go in there, where are they going to park? Shop N' Save's not going to give them permission to park there. MR. TURNER-No. MRS. WORTH-So it's going to be in front of my house or her house. I mean, we're not against progress, and the corner is an eyesore in the condition it's in, but to put a business there, it would just make it more congestion than is already there, and that's all I have to say. Thank you. 47 - MR. TURNER-Thank you. to the application? Anyone else wish to be heard in opposition PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED CORRESPONDENCE MRS. EGGLESTON-First, a letter to the Chairman from Staff, noting that a copy of the area variance for the above referenced application was sent to the Highway Department for review, regarding the applicant's request for a variance regarding the on-street parking requirement, and attached is a copy of his letter, which says, signed by Paul Naylor, "Due to the vacations and cut in staff there just isn't enough time to allow me to review each and every permit. I know that the Planning Board and Engineers look at the radius in the town and town specifications. So as long as they meet with the specifications and follow the rules, they will be safe. If there are any unusual circumstances, please feel free to give me a call. Sorry, Jim, there just aren't enough hours in the day." And a letter from the Committee for Community Beautification, and they approved the variance, "Proposal to use former used car office building for an espresso, cappuccino coffee shop, 944 square feet, to be renovated inside and outside, to have clear cedar siding, and maynard green trim, eight parking spaces, mostly off-street parking, no dumpsters, trash removed daily, service door for owners, existing stockade fence separated residential area to the west, new concrete sidewalk with curb on Western Avenue side, shed on back of property to be removed, green space 50 percent, facing Luzerne Road, one shade master tree, sea green Juniper and Japanese Hue. Facing Western Avenue, sea green Juniper, Japanese Hue, and two Pyramidial Hue, as marked on drawing. Maintenance by man already employed by Adirondack Coffee Service. Applicant stated a spotless building and sharply manicured grounds are imperative to the image of an Exotic Coffee Shop to be successful. The Committee feels this will be an improvement for the area, and encourage others to keep up their property. In addition to the above landscaping, screening and planting provisions, the Committee wishes to go on record that it does not approve nonconforming signs, plastic or artificial trees, shrubs or flowers. In approving the above, or attached plans, the Committee has the expressed or implied agreement of the applicant to replace immediately dead trees, shrubs or plants, and to give proper maintenance to all buildings. All rubbish containers or dumpsters shall be screened. All plantings shall be mulched, and trees shall be retained or planted as agreed." MR. PHILO-Mr. Turner, can I ask you one question on this? Could we table this until we hear from Mr. Naylor? MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. PHILO-So we can be fair to both what Mr. Naylor's concept is of the he has any objections, or if there's the highway. parties. I'd like to know snow removal and things. If going to be any problem with MR. TURNER-Tom, was there any traffic count done for Shop N' Save when they went in there? MR. NACE-I haven't seen it, traffic study done when that but I'm sure there must have been a was approved. MR. O'CONNOR-I don't think there was, because I looked for the traffic study for another reason. I had an automobile accident at the corner of Western and Corinth Road. That's how I got that sketch to show what the configuration of the road was. We tried to find other construction plans, and we didn't find them. Maybe there is. If you're thinking of tabling it, I might suggest that you also refer the application to Rist-Frost. Tom Nace is our 48 -----.------.-.-.------.--- '-' engineer. He looked at it. This is not a guesstimate as to site distances or site size or distances. This is an actual survey with a two scale drawing placed upon it. You seem to have questions about the accuracy of it, or what it represents. I would suggest that you refer to Rist-Frost, let them review it, let them see if they have any concerns as to the site distances. I'm not sure, usually we do that at site plan review. We do it at site plan review, and it's at the applicant's expense. I would stipulate, on behalf of the applicant, that we would understand that it would be at our expense at this time also. Maybe they would, then, again, have to review it at site plan review, if we get to that point. We don't think that, I'm very happy to hear that the neighbors aren't concerned with the business that we're promoting, with the improvements we plan to make to the property, and I think the one question that you might have, or that the neighbors have is whether or not it actually will represent a traffic safety problem. We don't think it will, and we think that if you look at it from a point of a traffic safety engineer, it won't. It probably will be an improvement over what's there, and I think we're willing to put it to that test. MR. PHILO-I think it's going to help if Tom maybe could take this print, okay, and this lady over here was saying something about, if she was, the young gentleman and young lady were saying that park next to their mailbox. Is their mailbox on Town property, or is it on. MR. NACE-I don't know. MR. PHILO-If you could extend that print out just a little bit, Tom, and give us a right-of-way. Then, on the back side of this road right here, give us the full side of that road, okay, all the way around, on that corner. Mrs. Eggleston brought up a point. I have an idea, but I can't say. I think you're giving us the edge of the traffic area now. MR. NACE-We're giving you, what you see there edge of the travel lane, okay, and it's accurate our side of the street. The other side of the in, just to indicate, what's there. is not, it's the and surveyed on street is dubbed MR. PHILO-Okay. If you can give us the total width of that around there, for that, then we'll have some val idat ion. the people's mailbox, like mine, mine is on Town property. road, Maybe MR. NACE-Most of them are. MR. PHILO-They've got a 55 foot right-of-way, where I live, and we've only got a 12 foot lane, on both sides that it's paved, and mine's right of the edge of the, so I'm really on Town property with my mailbox. So if you could explain that to us. Could we table this for one meeting, Mr. Turner? MR. TURNER-Yes, but I just want to tell Mike, the concern I have with the application is the parking on Luzerne Road, because what's going to happen there is once they start parking there, and they start going into this business, they're going to start migrating right up that road. MRS. EGGLESTON-Not only that, they're going to park one bumper to bumper. MR. O'CONNOR-Well, the possibility, like any application, is that you could approve, our presentation to you is that we are asking for a variance of the Ordinance requirements to have parking on site. You could grant the variance and state that, as a condition to the variance, no parking be allowed along Luzerne Road. - 49 - MR. TURNER-Yes. I know that. MR. O'CONNOR-And that it be posted appropriately by the Town Board, and if that's the issue, I asked the neighbors behind me whether or not they would be more comfortable with one parking spot there, as opposed to two. Two gets us right close to his property line. Maybe he has a concern about getting out of his driveway. I said if you had one there, would that be better. Maybe the Board is going to tell us none. MR. TURNER-The concern I have is that once this place gets opened up, and they start going in here, you've got four cars parked here, along the street here, then all of a sudden the guy says, we 11, he 11, I'll go over here, go around the corner and park, and that's what's going to happen. They're going to start parking there, and there's going to be no enforcement to respond to it. MR. O'CONNOR-I think you have to presume decent enforcement. You can't presume that enforcement. If you do that, then you're not your jurisdiction. that there will be there will be no passing it within MR. TURNER-Well, I won't say no, but I mean, if they call up and say, I've got a guy parked in front of my driveway. MR. O'CONNOR-They can do something if it's posted, and if your approval is conditioned upon the Board posting it, then it has to go on to another Board to get posted. If you look at the square footage of the building, I think it's 944 square feet. Look at the Parking Ordinance. Regardless of what we tried to do there, we're going to come back and have to look for this type variance. MR. TURNER-I know. I agree wi th you, Mi ke. MR. O'CONNOR-This fits into the shoe of a practical difficulty, hardship even, for area variance. MR. TURNER-We've got the same thing with another application with the same identical thing, where they need a whole bunch of parking, and they don't have room for the parking. MR. O'CONNOR-Then you can tell parking. us that we don't need that MR. TURNER-Yes, I know. MR. O'CONNOR-And it depends upon what use you're looking at, but there are a lot of the uses, we over-build the parking spots, we end up with a sea of pavement. Worlco Management Services down here is an example of it. I came in with a count that showed you that the highest number of cars they had there were 12 cars over the course of a year. We built 22 parking spots. You go down and take a look at it, any day. MR. TURNER-All right. Let me ask you this question. Do you think you're going to get walk-in business from Shop N' Save, people go in there and shop, they come out, put their groceries in their car, leave the car there, walk across the street, have coffee? I think you might. MR. O'CONNOR-That wasn't would. part of our thought process that we MR. TURNER-No, but I think you might. MRS. EGGLESTON-Definitely. Mike, you know these two parking spaces on the front, you could conceivably have the first parking space with people backing away. If the car in front comes in second and backs right up to their bumper, the only way they can get out of this parking space is to back up, and they're going to - 50 - be backing up into Western Avenue. MR. O'CONNOR-I think that's a 22 foot parking spot, am I right? MR. NACE-That's correct. MR. O'CONNOR-Which is purposely designed so that the person could float within the box itself. MRS. EGGLESTON-But did you ever see people park perfect? Come on~ They park allover the place. They park across the line. They don't park perfect. You think they're going to look at this block and say, now, I've got to stay, but there is that possibility. That corner cannot stand. MR. O'CONNOR-Seriously, I want you to look at the building, look at the Parking Ordinance, and you're going to realize that we're going to be here for whatever we propose to put in that building. It's not going to be, this building is not going to be rehabbed and made into a single family residence. In fact, we'd have to come back for a variance because it's a Light Industrial One Acre zone. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. O'CONNOR-Economically, you just wouldn't put. MR. TURNER-I know, but I think what you've got to do is go back and look at it a little different. Lets get input from Paul Naylor, because he didn't give us any direction, here. Lets see what he's got to say about it, first. MR. 0' CONNOR-Okay. That I ett er he wrot e, I'm sorry, Mr. Turner. That had to do with subdivision variances that we. MR. TURNER- I know, it's pI ann i ng. It says Planning Department MR. O'CONNOR-Yes. That we put in variances last night for radius on a subdivision road, and that's why that letter was generated. I don't know why Staff put it in this file. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-I had sent the application at the same time he sent that to us. MR. O'CONNOR-At the same time he sent it to you with regard to the subdivision radiuses. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-Well, I can't interpret that. generally to the Planning Department. He sent that MISS HAUSER-Is there any possibility of leasing any more parking spaces, other than those two? MR. O'CONNOR-The problem with leasing more spaces is they get more remote from the site. There is a possibility that we might be able to, if this would be approvable by the Board, we might be able to tuck our employee parking even more remote than that, and utilize that for customer parking. The idea was to design that for cust omer park i ng. We don't have a lot of cont ro I, or we could maybe tuck the employees some place else, find two more sites for some place else. MR. TURNER-I think you're going to have to do something different than what you've got here, because. MR. PHILO-You couldn't buy a little piece of property there from one of those neighbors? MR. O'CONNOR-We can't buy any property from anybody. This isn't the Shop N' Save, though. This isn't Wal-Mart. This is just a - 51 - g44 square foot building, folks, on a 4300 square foot lot. MR. TURNER-Lets table the application, and lets find out if they can lease a couple of parking spaces for the employees some place else. Lets get input from Paul Naylor, as to his remarks regarding the parking on Luzerne Road. MRS. EGGLESTON-In the meantime, I'd like Mike O'Connor and Mr. Nace to drive that road back and forth to work every day. Go out Western, up Sherman. Neither of you live in our neighborhood. I don't believe Mr. Nace does. How often are you on that corner. MR. NACE-I live off West Mountain Road. MRS. EGGLESTON-Do you go out that road much? MR. NACE-I have driven Luzerne Road quite a bit. MRS. EGGLESTON-Fred uses it every day, and so do I, and we just feel that it's absolutely a bad. MR. NACE-To still has Western. divert, one of a yield sign on the real problems is that the old west bound, Luzerne the City Road at MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. MR. NACE-That should be a stop sign. MRS. EGGLESTON-They pay no attention. MR. NACE-People coming down Luzerne Road eastbound have no idea what that cross traffic's going to do. MRS. EGGLESTON-Right. You're absolutely right. MR. CARVIN-As much as I hate red lights, I think this corner probably screams for a red light, just to control it there. MR. NACE-It screams for some more stop signs. four way st op. That could be a MRS. EGGLESTON-I don't think controlled in front of those them. We're in agreement. there's any way people's houses. parking I feel can be bad for MR. TURNER-We're in agreement? MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. MR. O'CONNOR-I guess my question is, how is it controlled now, or how was it controlled when you had the prior businesses there? MRS. EGGLESTON-They parked right up to the door step of the property. They were off the property when they parked. MR. O'CONNOR-But when people stopped to look at cars, they parked in front of that row of cars. MRS. EGGLESTON-And it was a nightmare, Mike. we want to put that back there again? I mean, why would MR. CARVIN-I can't tell you how many times I came down to that corner, when that car lot was there, and you'd think that everything is okay, and you go out and all of a sudden there's a car coming at you because you couldn't see it because there was 50 cars. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes, they parked on the wrong side of the road. - 52 - MR. HAYES-He's exactly right, but it's just what you reinforce back into that exact scenario. MR. O'CONNOR-Would you feel comfortable, this evening, of approving it with the parking only on Western Avenue, and requiring the applicant to have four leased spots, in the near proximity of the parking, and eliminate those two spots? MR. TURNER-I don't want those spots there at all. MR. O'CONNOR-Okay. That's what I'm saying, eliminate the two spots on Luzerne Road. Would you feel comfortable with eliminating those two spots, telling us that you'll condition that we have to have four leased spots available, and we have only parking on Western Avenue in compliance with the City Code, even though you don't have jurisdiction. MRS. EGGLESTON-Would they still park there, though, the people? MR. TURNER-No, well, then you could ticket them and take them out of there. MRS. EGGLESTON-Would there be anything done to put? MR. PHILO-If you posted that, reinforce the. marked it properl y, they could MR. O'CONNOR-That may simplify things, and I'm hearing people behind me talking. Maybe I'm not hearing right, but I think that's what I'm hearing them say their concern is. MR. KARPELES-What would you do, go out farther where you've got those two off site spaces now? MR. O'CONNOR-No. I honestly think we would go around behind the building and find two more parking spots, behind the Daggett's building. MR. TURNER-Is everybody comfortable with that? MR. CARVIN-Well, Ted, my feeling is, the whole bone of contention is, we can't stop a business there. I mean, they could put a tatt 00 shop in there. I hat e to say it. MR. TURNER-But I would say, let them park on Western. MICKIE HAYES MR. M. HAYES-My name is Daggett Vending, as well Mickie Hayes, and I'm Vice President as a principal in Adirondack. of MR. PHILO-Would you give them some more spots back there, to help them? MR. M. HAYES-Adirondack Coffee used to maintain its operation in this existing property, with all the properties right along Western Avenue. We've had 15 to 20 employees leave that section, move to Big Bay, or Big Boom, which we have a lot more spots than we used to, and we also, in a spot on Holden Avenue, which we have numerous parking spots as well. We'd have a lot more room than we did before. Eventually we'd like to try to get Daggett's totally out of there, but we'd have to be able to do something with the properties. We don't have all the money in the world. We've got to try to, may have a plan here so we're in a basic commercial area now where we need Light Industrial land. It'll make sense for us to have everything in one spot, in one building, for taxes, utilities or whatever, but we have to be able to do that, and that's what, this is kind of like the first step in that, is to be able to move to one piece of property and have everything together. - 53 - .'- MRS. EGGLESTON-Did you say you were ln Daggett Vending as well? What are you there? MR. M. HAYES-I'm the Vice President of Daggett Vending. MRS. EGGLESTON-Well, I'd like to ask you something. Could you prohibit, you know when you come out of Shop N' Save? Your trucks are parked right across from the Shop N' Save access? MR. M. HAYES-Yes. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. There's trucks parked against the building, and then other trucks come, from either direction, they pull across and they park double. There's all kinds of motion there, and you're trying to get out of Shop N' Save, and appear both ways, and yet you're going to give up parking spaces? MR. M. HAYES-No, parking not in that spot, around, the Church has parking all the way around the Church, the area where the Adirondack Coffee used to be, which is no longer in there, which their employees used to park there. Those are all vacant spots now, but those trucks are parked in front of Daggett's because they load and unload to go and do their operation of business. Like we say, we realize there's a problem there now, but we have to be able to have a reasonable program to move our operation to one, consolidation to one spot. We just can't, poof, and it changes like that, but we have more park i ng. All the employees of Adirondack Coffee office now are not on the same site, and they did have cars and they did have trucks there that no longer there. MR. O'CONNOR-I think we're getting a little far off stream, and the only comment I would make, so the record is clear, Daggett's Vending was there a long time before Shop N' Save was there. MR. PHILO-Mike, I don't think we're getting off the line. I think we're solving the problem. I think this man here, if it agrees with these people out here, that there's no parking, and we have that posted so they can't park out there, it's going to be beneficial to this whole operation. I would like to see these people happy out here. MRS. WORTH-No. that? I don' t agree. How are you going to guarantee MR. PHILO-You're going to post mark it, and the first time that, you don't have to see it they won't be parking in there that property. You're going to that you see somebody parking in once. If they pay $50, $100 fine, again. MRS. WORTH-We don't want to have to have that kind of an aggravation. We shouldn't have to begin with. People aren't going to pay attention to signs. There's a stop sign there, too, and that's why there's accidents, because they don't pay attention. They go right through it. MR. KARPELES-Yes, but what do you want them to do with this property? MRS. WORTH-I don't know. We just don't want it to affect us. MR. KARPELES-Well, they've got to do something with it. MR. PHILO-If they put property, like they said, the parking over here, in Daggett' s are you going to be happy with that? MRS. WORTH-Suppose that gets all filled, what guarantee do you have they're not going to park on Luzerne Road? MR. TURNER-We can't guarantee that. - 54 - MR. PHILO-We can post it. MR. O'CONNOR-We're not going to be permitted to park, as part of our approval, is what you're saying? MR. DUCHANT-Like he was saying, they're going to park here, and if they get filled up, they're going to move right around, okay. If you eliminate this parking you have, I see they've got this absorption field. I don't know why. It's for septic systems? MR. PHILO-Yes. Right. MR. DUCHANT-But that's only proposed anyway, right? MR. PHILO-Yes. MR. TURNER-Yes, well, they're going to put a new one in. MR. PHILO-They're going to have to put a drain field in there. MR. DUCHANT-It's just the problem with the parking on this road is the only problem we have with it. MR. O'CONNOR-If you park in the area of the absorption field, you lose the parking that's along Western Avenue, you don't gain anything, because you'd have to back across those spots to get there. We had it laid out. We tried laying it out once that way. We tried laying it out where there was, across the corner. MR. PHILO-Mr. Hayes, how many parking spots can you give to these people? MR. M. HAYES-I figure that we that we could give up, beyond would be about the maximum we I and. could probably have two more spots the two that we al ready have. Four could go, reasonably, be on to our MR. PHILO-Tom, is there any way you can pick up two, that property? then, on MR. NACE-I don't think we can pick up two more on the property. I think what you said sign this. What can happen is, this travel here on Luzerne is fairly well defined. If we put the signs out where people would normally be parking, not back off here, but get Paul to put the signs in the space where people want to park, then you physically can't park there. MR. PHILO-Okay. MR. CARVIN-Would they be willing to put poles down there? In other words, just put poles, or is that a road hazard? MR. TURNER-It's Town property. You can't. MR. NACE-It's Town property. We could work out something with Paul that, whereby, as long as it complies with Town Highway Law we could do something there to physically prohibit parking. I don't know. I'm not that familiar with Town Highway Law. MR. TURNER-Do you want to table it for further information, or do you want to move on it? MR. PHILO-I think we ought to talk to Naylor, and have Tom Nace, Daggett, draw up something, Tom, like we said, without this parking over here. MR. NACE-Sure. Since this still has to go review, I think what Mike was suggesting, comfortable approving it without those spaces, approval on the fact that we come up with some through site plan if you would feel and condition your physical means of - 55 - - preventing parking on Luzerne Road, other than just signs that are back away from the parking, find some physical means of preventing that parking, and work that out. MR. O'CONNOR-If we remove those two spots Luzerne Road, that real 1 y is the end jurisdiction, because all the other parking Glens Falls, and what we would then do is petition the Town Board to post this as a No can't tell you whether the Town Board. from the plan, on of Paul Naylor's is in the City of we would agree to Parking area. I MR. PHILO-So then take our obligation, as far as the City, the Town, those two out of there, and post that property. MR. O'CONNOR-And I would petition the Town Board to post that much of Luzerne Road as no parking. I can't guarantee you that the Town Board's going to agree with your thinking, that that's a requirement. That's going to have to be their discretionary judgement, and I don't think you can make that decision for them either, but I will agree to petition to do that. MR. PHILO-That would be in a stipulation that we, when we grant the variance. MR. O'CONNOR-Yes. MR. PHILO-Okay. MRS. EGGLESTON-We might as well move on it. wanted to wait for Naylor's report. We 11, though, he MR. O'CONNOR-Okay. My point, Mrs. Eggleston, is remove those two parking spots from Luzerne Road, much eliminates Paul Naylor's involvement with the. that when we that pretty MR. TURNER-Only be on Luzerne Road. MR. O'CONNOR-On parking, because there's not going to be any parking, and I would suggest that you condition your approval, eliminating those two spots, requiring us to petition the Town Board to have that posted as a no parking area. You or I can't tell the Town Board that they will make it a no parking area, but we will petition them, and maybe the neighbors will come to that meeting, also, and join with us, if that's their concern, so that there is no parking. I think that's a reasonable solution, maybe not one that's going to satisfy you, but that's what I would try to suggest to move this thing along a little bit. We would then have four parking spots on Western Avenue, and we will have four leased spots off site, on Daggett's. MS. GRIGSBY-I was just suggesting that we see about these parking places before we approve this. They seem to be pushing this for some reason. What's the hurry, if there isn't something wrong? What's the hurry to push this proposal tonight? Okay. MR. O'CONNOR-The hurry, I would explain it on the record, is that we filed this appropriately a month ago. We need to get this Board's approval so that we can file for site plan. We probably won't even get on the August agenda for site plan. We probably would get on the September agenda. I've gone through the parking regulation business once before with the Town Board. That's not something that's done overnight. They have to first entertain the idea, set a date for a public hearing, then go through the public hearing process, and then make their resolution or not make their resolution. We're talking just about trying to be reasonable and moving forward. As everybody's kind of indicated, this is a business property. It's going to be used for business. It really doesn't have any space on it to accommodate parking that's reasonable. We're trying to comply with the Ordinance the best that we can. - 56 - · ""-- MR. TURNER-Okay. What's the Board's pleasure? Lets move the appl icat ion. Do you want to table it, or do you want to move the application? MR. PHILO-I think, you know, we've got to be fair with this guy. MR. KARPELES-I don't see how we're ever going to do any better than, we don't have any jurisdiction over Western Avenue anyway, right? MR. TURNER-No. MR. KARPELES-So, and they're parking spots on Luzerne Road. than that. willing to eliminate these two We're not going to do any better MRS. EGGLESTON-No. MR. CARVIN-I think we've got to, there's got to be a no parking zone. MR. PHILO-Yes. They're willing appl icat i on. We it. It's going to be posted. That's what he said. to do that, and it's rider right on our won't give them the variance unless they do post MS. GRIGSBY-So, in other words, before? they'll have to have it posted MR. PHILO-Right. MR. TURNER-No, no. MR. O'CONNOR-I would object to that, Mr. Philo, if that was a condition. I can't control the Town Board. I would petition, in good faith, for posting. If the Town Board deems it not to be a safety hazard, or deems it not to be appropriate to post it, for whatever reason, I don't want us to be out of business. MR. PHILO-I would like this to follow to the Planning Board, then, when the Planning Board looks at it, we gave approval with this condition. MR. O'CONNOR-I don't mind a condition that we petition. MR. PHILO-Okay. MR. O'CONNOR-But I can't accept the variance. MR. TURNER-He doesn't want it cast in concrete. MR. O'CONNOR-That you say that you give a variance on condition that we do post. MR. PHILO-What do you say, Mr. Turner? MR. TURNER-Well, we don't have any jurisdiction on the other four parking spaces on the City property. We only have jurisdiction of those two parking spaces on Luzerne Road. MR. PHILO-Did I say the wrong thing? Did I say it right? MR. TURNER-Well, I'm going to say the same thing that everybody else has said, and I think everybody else is thinking the same thing, that we eliminate the parking on Luzerne Road, and that we ask the Town Board, that we ask them to petition the Town Board to put a no parking zone there on Luzerne Road, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen. MS. GRI GSBY-Yes. That doesn't mean that's going to happen. - 57 / You've got to keep that in mind. MR. PHILO-No, but can't we put a provision in? MR. TURNER-Can place was there, I ask you a question, ma'am? When the used did they park in front of your place then? car MS. GRIGSBY-Yes. They did. They did once in a whi Ie. The guy was very good about it. I would go over and ask him to move the cars, and he did move the cars. He asked for permission to park there, usually, when he did. I didn' t run into a lot of trouble with him. I was only there when the last guy was there Circle K, and he was very good about it. He fixed up the yard. He took the trees down, and he was very good with the landscaping, as far as compared to what it looks like now, and what it has looked like. He was one of the better tenants, I would say, that they've had at the place. MR. TURNER-Do you have a problem with, we're going to eliminate the parking on Luzerne Road. MS. GRIGSBY-I don't have a problem with the business, said before, I don't have a problem. The place is a needs to be cleaned up, but I do not want the parking they're not guaranteeing me this. and like I mess. It there, and MR. TURNER-Yes, they are. We're guaranteeing you that. We're telling you there'll be no parking. We'll condition the variance, there'll be no parking on Luzerne Road, period. MS. GRIGSBY-Well, then you vote the way you want it, if there's not going to be any parking there, but I just, I can't foresee me getting out of my driveway with the parking there. That's all. MR. TURNER-There's not going to be any parking there. MR. PHILO-That's what we're saying right now. MR. TURNER-We're going to eliminate the parking on Luzerne Road, and they're going to have to pick up additional spaces on Daggett Vending's land to accommodate the parking they need. Does that satisfy you? We have no control over who parks there after. We can't control it. MR. PHILO-We can't control the City of Glens Falls. MR. TURNER-We can't control it. MS. GRIGSBY-I realize this. MR. DUCHANT-You'r'e granting them a variance of not having enough park i ng spot s. MR. TURNER-No. Daggett Vending. They've got to pick up additional parking at MS. GRIGSBY-Right, but you're granting them okay, they'll go to the Glens Falls Board, called about these parking spots. Like you guarantee that they're going to post that road then what happens? this, okay, and, or whatever it's said, there's no ri ght there. So MR. PHILO-The Town of Queensbury's road will be posted. MS. GRIGSBY-Right. Okay. Lets say happens then? They're going to be street, right next to my house. that they don't. parked right along What that MR. TURNER-Yes, but we can't, that's a civil prevent that. matter. We can't - 58 - MS. GRIGSBY-But you're not guaranteeing that for me. MR. TURNER-We can't guarantee you that. I'm going to tell you that right now. Nobody can guarantee you that. MS. GRIGSBY-That's what I'm saying. MR. O'CONNOR-That's the jurisdiction of the Town Board. guarantee that. This Board can't guarantee it. In Planning Board can't guarantee that. I can't fact, the MS. GRIGSBY-Right, but he just said he could it that it wouldn't be granted if that was the put a provision in case. MR. TURNER-There will be no parking on Luzerne Road, period. We can't condition it that they're not going to park there. If they park there, then it's a civil matter. If that's posted, then they're subject to arrest, to a fine. MS. GRIGSBY-Right. MR. CARVIN-And as owners, no parking? could they not put on their property, MR. TURNER-They could. They could put, no parking. MS. GRIGSBY-Then, I don't want to be calling the cops on people everyday, when I get home from work, to get in my driveway. Would you want to do that when you got home? MR. CARVIN-No. What I'm saying is that even if the Town didn't post note, that the owner would could have no parking signs. MR. PHILO-Mike, when I said, could we put a provision in this, so when we, when they present this to the Planning Board, if the Planning Board goes along with the no parking, and all agree, then everybody's happy. MS. GRIGSBY-That's what 1 say. If that can't go the way he says it, then I'm not going to, I can't obligate myself to anything like that, because I know what's going to happen. MR. O'CONNOR-Are you saying you would make a motion to grant the variance, with certain conditions? MR. TURNER-We'll make the motion. MR. O'CONNOR-Okay. MR. TURNER-All right. Lets move it. MR. O'CONNOR-The Ordinance says that we will have eight spots. MR. TURNER-You've got to have eight parking spaces. MR. O'CONNOR-On premises. MR. TURNER-On premises. MR. O'CONNOR-You're allowing us to operate without eight spots on premises, based upon certain conditions. MR. PHILO-Right. MR. TURNER-We're only going to allow you two on prem i ses, then. MR. O'CONNOR-There are none on premises now. MR. TURNER-They've got two right here. - 59 - '- MR. THOMAS-Those are on Daggett's. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. any. They're on Daggetts. So, we're not allowing MR. TURNER-All right. MR. O'CONNOR-You're going to allow us to operate the business as proposed with no on-site parking, on condition that we have four off street parking spots, leased from Daggett's. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. O'CONNOR-And that we have none along Luzerne Road. petition the Town not to have parking on Luzerne Road. That we MR. PHILO-Right. MR. TURNER-Ready. Lets do it again. MR. CARVIN-Ted, do you want to put this off, because this is not an easy motion. I mean, we can move this for &0 days. We don't have to vote on it tonight. I mean we can move it so that we can word the, because my concern is, as I've expressed, I'd like to see something in the motion about the shrubs, to make maximum visibility up through there. I think that part of the motion should deal that the owners put no parking signs out front, until the Town comes through and posts it, and do whatever is in there possible to make that corner as safe as possible. MR. O'CONNOR-Mr. Carvin, if we were going to walk out of here and get a building permit tomorrow, I would understand that, but what we walk out of here with tomorrow is the premise to go in and get a site plan application filed. Site plan application is going to consider all those issues, including drainage, and many other things that they consider. We're going to have to show, and we have a planting plan that shows that the plantings along the lines of site are low plantings. We're not going to obscure the site distances by putting plantings, and I don't think that that's not going to be addressed fully by the Planning Board. MR. CARVIN-They've got so many trees and things, and it's got to be mulched, and non mulched. MR. O'CONNOR-Do you want us to go through for you the planting plan? We've got the planting plan. MR. TURNER-No. all. I just want to make sure it's covered. That's MR. O'CONNOR-It will be covered at site plan. MR. TURNER-I know it will, but I want to make sure that they get our recommendation that those plantings be low, that they do not block the line of site. MR. O'CONNOR-Okay. resolution. I just from you. I have no problem was trying to avoid with it going not getting a i nt 0 a decision MR. CARVIN-I'm not trying to avoid giving you think that if it's worded properly, this motion, you'll have a pos i t i ve response. a decision. I and constructed, MR. PHILO-We'd like everybody taken care of. MR. CARVIN-But knowing full well want to make sure that this Board the history of this corner, is on solid ground. I MR. O'CONNOR-Would you consider, this might be unusual, and I - &0 don't mean to offer it to be offensive. Would you want to table this, while you consider the next application, and Mr. Nace and I will go out in the other room and see if we can put all your concerns down in a reasonable resolution that you would consider, and modify? MR. PHILO-It sounds good to me. MR. KARPELES-That sounds good to me. MR. CARVIN-Because I was going to say, we've got another one to go, here. MR. 0' CONNOR-Yes. I mean, I can see peopl e s i tt i ng back there, and I'm not trying to prolong their night while we hash out whether we're in agreement or not in agreement as to what we're say i ng. MS. GRIGSBY-I want to wait and see how some of these people vote, when they turn down an elderly man with $13,000 for an antique shop, and then they give the traffic to the public, a hazard. I want to just see how the vote turns out, myself. We're going to see if money really talks. MR. TURNER-This is an area variance versus a use variance. MS. GRIGSBY-I realize that. MR. TURNER-This is a lot, the tests are harder for a use variance than they are an area variance. MR. O'CONNOR-Mr. Chairman, I don't mean to suggest something out of order. I'm just trying to simplify the procedures. MR. KARPELES-Why not let him do it? MR. CARVIN-Well, lets put it to the end of the meeting, and if they want to work up a suggested motion, I don't have a problem wi th that. Let s move to the next appl icat ion. MR. TURNER-Yes. All right. MR. CARVIN-Because as I said, I really feel that this motion has to be pretty tight. MRS. EGGLESTON-Would that be proper? MR. TURNER-No. They don't make up the motion. MRS. EGGLESTON-Absolutely not make up a motion. MR. TURNER-Don't make any motion. We'll make a mot ion. MR. O'CONNOR-I beg to differ with you. anything at all? You want us to not to MR. TURNER-No. MRS. EGGLESTON-We don't want you to write a motion. wouldn't be right. That MR. O'CONNOR-Do you want me to write a stipulation that willing to agree upon? I am MR. TURNER-You write your stipulation you're willing to agree upon. Other than that, we'll do the mot i on. Okay. We' 11 take the next order of business. AREA VARIANCE NO. 68-1993 TYPE: UNLISTED LI-1A DEBBIE PETROSKY OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE SOUTHWEST CORNER LOT AT HOMER - 61 - AND EVERTS AVENUE APPLICANT IS PROPOSING SIX HUNDRED AND EIGHTY- FIVE HUNDREDTHS (.&85) ACRE FOR THE LOT AREA OF EACH PROPOSED LOT AND IS SEEKING THREE HUNDRED AND FIFTEEN HUNDREDTHS (.315) ACRE RELIEF FROM SECTION 179-2&C, WHICH REQUIRES ONE (1) ACRE AS THE MINIMUM LOT AREA IN THE LIGHT INDUSTRIAL 1 ACRE ZONE. APPLICANT IS ALSO PROPOSING ONE HUNDRED AND NINETY-EIGHT AND SEVENTY-NINE HUNDREDTHS (198.79) FEET FOR THE WIDTH OF EACH PROPOSED LOT AND IS SEEKING ONE AND TWENTY-ONE HUNDREDTHS (1.21) FEET RELIEF FROM SECTION 179-2&C, WHICH REQUIRES A MINIMUM OF TWO HUNDRED (200) FEET FOR THE LOT WIDTH IN SAID ZONE. APPLICANT IS PROPOSING ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY-THREE (143) FEET FOR THE LOT DEPTH OF BOTH PROPOSED PARCELS AND IS SEEKING FIFTY-SEVEN (57) FEET RELIEF FROM SECTION 179-2&C, WHICH REQUIRES TWO HUNDRED (200) FEET FOR THE LOT DEPTH IN SAID ZONE. APPLICANT IS PROPOSING TWENTY-FIVE (25) FEET FOR THE WEST SIDE YARD SETBACK OF THE EASTERN PROPOSED PARCEL AND IS SEEKING FIVE (5) FEET RELIEF FROM SECTION 179-2&C, WHICH REQUIRES THIRTY (30) FEET FOR THE SIDE YARD SETBACK IN SAID ZONE. APPLICANT IS PROPOSING NINE AND THREE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY- FIVE (9.375) FEET FOR THE SETBACK OF THE POOL ON THE WESTERN PARCEL AND IS SEEKING SIX HUNDRED AND TWENTY-FIVE HUNDREDTHS (.&25) FEET RELIEF FROM SECTION 179-&7B(2), WHICH STATES THAT A POOL SHALL NOT BE LESS OF A DISTANCE THAN (10) FEET FROM THE SIDE LOT LINE. TAX MAP NUMBER: 107-1-4.1 LOT SIZE: 1.37 ACRES SECTION 179-2&C, 179-&7B(2) JOHN HORGAN, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff, Area Variance No. 68-1993, Debbie Petroski, Meet i ng Dat e: Jul y 28, 1993 "ADDRESS OF PROPERTY: southwest corner of lot at Homer and Everts Avenue SUMMARY OF PROJECT: Applicant is proposing a two (2) lot subdivision of one and thirty-seven hundredths (1.37) acre developed commercial lot. CONFORMANCE WITH USE/AREA REGULATIONS: 1. Applicant is proposing six hundred and eighty-five hundredths (.685) acre for the lot area for each proposed lot and is seeking relief of three hundred and fifteen hundredths (.315) acre for each lot from Section 179-26C, which requires one (1) acre as the minimum lot area in the Light Industrial 1 Acre zone (LI-1A). 2. Applicant is proposing one hundred and ninety-eight and seventy-nine hundredths (198.79) feet for the width of each proposed lot and is seeking one and twenty-one hundredths (1.21) feet relief for each lot from Section 179-26C, which requires a minimum of two hundred (200) feet for the lot width in the LI-1A zone. 3. Applicant is proposing one hundred and forty-three (143) feet for the lot depth of both proposed lots and is seeking fifty-seven feet relief (57) feet relief for each proposed lot from Section 179-26C, which requires a minimum of two hundred (200) feet for the lot depth in the LI-1A zone. 4. Appl icant is proposing twenty-five (25) feet for the west side yard setback of the proposed eastern parcel and is seeking five (5) feet relief from Section 179-26C, which requires thirty (30) feet for the side yard setback in the LI-1A zone. 5. Applicant is proposing nine and three hundred and seventy-five hundredths (9.375) feet for the setback of the existing pool on the western proposed parcel and is seeking six hundred and twenty-five hundredths (.625) feet relief from Section 179-678(2), which states that a pool shall not be less than a distance of ten (10) feet from the side lot line. REVIEW CRITERIA: 1. DESCRIBE THE PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW PLACEMENT OF A STRUCTURE WHICH MEETS THE ZONING REQUIREMENTS. Applicant is seeking a two lot subdivision of a one and thirty-seven hundredths (1.37) acre parcel, which results in two (2) parcels whose lot dimensions do not meet the zoning requirements. 2. IS THIS THE MINIMUM VARIANCE NECESSARY TO ALLEVIATE THE SPECIFIC PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY OR IS THERE ANY OTHER OPTION WHICH WOULD REQUIRE NO VARIANCE? It would appear that the relief requested is the minimum variance necessary to alleviate the specific practical difficulty and as proposed subdivision results in a number of nonconformlng dimensional - &2 ',,- requirements, no other option is available which would require no variance. 3. WOULD THIS VARIANCE BE DETRIMENTAL TO OTHER PROPERTIES IN THE DISTRICT OR NEIGHBORHOOD? It would appear that the variance would not be detrimental to other properties in the district or neighborhood as the subdivision will result in one (1) existing principal building being located on each proposed parcel with no new development being proposed for either parcel. 4. WHAT ARE THE EFFECTS OF THE VARIANCE ON PUBLIC FACILITIES OR SERVICES? As the intended use of the property will remain the same for each proposed lot (commercial use), it would appear that the variance would not effect public facilities or services. STAFF COMMENTS AND CONCERNS: Proposed subdivision will result in one (1) existing principal building on each lot. The western parcel's structure has an existing use which will not change with the subdivision. The eastern parcel's structure is presently vacant, and any proposed use of this parcel and building will need to conform to existing permitted uses for the LI-1A zone or any proposed nonconforming use will require a Use Variance." MR. HORGAN-My name is John Horgan, and I'm acting on behalf of the applicant. The owner does own both structures on the site presently, who has been trying to sell or lease the property for the past four years without success, and has come across a potential buyer who would like to buy that structure, it just happens to be part of the business which is in one of her existing buildings, and move it next door, into the building that's been vacant there for a few years. Basically, it's a lot, like was stated, of 1.37, want to basically divide it down the middle. What that did, it did create a few setbacks. It was a corner lot, which didn't have any side lots to it, which, it must have gone through the approval process at one point, because one of the bui ldings does have a 15 foot setback, but I guess that was approved. What this creates now, dividing it in half, it creates more side yards which it now is what we're requesting for a variance. The two businesses are one now, which is, Child World, is looking to expand, and Adirondack Gymnastics, which is in the same building, is looking, now, to purchase the buildlng next door, as a separate entity, and expand that business as well. There's just some scheduling conflicts where they both can expand their business with two separate buildings. MR. TURNER-Any questions? MR. PHILO-That's just down the st reet from turned down, right? MR. HORGAN-It's in the same neighborhood. MR. TURNER-It's in the same neighborhood. that one we just MRS. EGGLESTON-Almost across the street. MR. PHILO-They're saying it's commercial one way. way, and the other, jumping back and forth there. It's this one I don't. MR. TURNER-It's not jumping back and forth, Tom. The road division line. One side of the road is Light Industrial, other side is Residential, and there's got to be a border place. is a the some MR. PHILO-I know, but technically everything is commercial all the way to that property that ~ were talking about. MR. TURNER-Yes, but if you live in Czechoslovakia, you don't live in Poland. MR. PHILO-I'm saying, commercial, Ted. all the property around there is MR. TURNER-No. - 63 - MR. PHILO-Those two houses that them, from Queensbury Motors. you put in there, Parrot owns MR. TURNER-They're residential, about it. Tom. We aren't going to argue MRS. EGGLESTON-It doesn't make them business, though, They're rentals, but they're still residential rentals. Tom. MR. TURNER-There has to be a border some place. a division line some place. There has to be MR. PHILO-This is true, and how they can hop around on one side of the road commercial, and then commercial on the other, and now this person is coming here, and we've run that guy out of here. MR. TURNER-That's from Bay Road to the other side. hearing. the way it's zoned. Tom, Light Industrial goes Everts Avenue, on that side. Resldential's on Okay. No questions? I'll open the public PUBLIC HEARING OPENED NO COMMENT PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED MR. TURNER-Okay. property? Any discussion over the division of the MR. CARVIN-The only question, Child's World, that used to be out on Sherman Ave, is that correct, or is that another one? DEBBIE PETROSKI MRS. PETROSKI-That day care and myself opened at the same time, and we weren't aware of each other's names. That was A Small World, and I am A Child's World. So we're not the same. MR. CARVIN-Not the same? MRS. PETROSKI-No. MR. CARVIN-Thank you. MRS. EGGLESTON-Did we establish a hardship here? they have to sell it? I mean, why do MR. TURNER-They want to sell one building. Yes. MRS. EGGLESTON-Why do we give it, I guess is my question. MR. CARVIN-Well, I would say along the same lines as we gave Wal- Mart. I mean, right? They subdivided Wal-Mart for essentially the same purpose. MR. TURNER-The only problem smaller lot, but you've got First it's one building on change but the setbacks. is, you're going to end up with a two buildings on the bigger lot. a smaller lot, nothing's going to MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes, but they say no further development. They really can't speak for the new buyer who might want something more on that smaller lot. MR. TURNER-They can't develop it. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. Okay. MR. TURNER-Do you intend to expand that operation any more than it is? Do you intend to expand the building further down the - &4 - line? Nothing? The only reason we let that go in there, Tom, was that, and for everybody that's not familiar with it, that was Light Industrial. Light Industrial, it was zoned Light Industrial, but it didn't take off Light Industrial. The use didn't take off Light Industrial, and that's why we allowed the two uses there, at the time that we did it. MRS. EGGLESTON-What's the practical difficulty? MR. TURNER-The practical difficulty is, it's self created in the sense that they want to sell off the one building. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. usually you say it's, a reason here. That's what I mean. What is your, 1 i ke you have reasons for doing it. I don't see MR. TURNER-It's a self created. applicant, because they want want to sell one building off. before. Now she wants to get east. The difficulty is created by the to subdivide the property. They Mrs. Petroski owned two buildings rid of the building that's to the MR. PHILO-One buy the other one out. That's what we used to do. MRS. PETROSKI-Well, ultimately that may happen, but. MRS. EGGLESTON-I'm hardpressed for a reason why. MR. TURNER-Yes. their reason. The only reason is they want to sell it. That's MRS. EGGLESTON-But that there's no anything. they haven't given money, that they're us up any figures against the that says wallar MR. PHILO-The only reason you want to split this up is because you want to sell it, right? MRS. PETROSKI-It's been vacant. We haven't had a gymnastics team in there for years, for a number of reasons. MR. TURNER-What were the reasons? MRS. PETROSKI-Well, the economy is one reason. The sport of gymnastics has changed considerably. It used to be a sport that you could be in and also have a life, and now it's pretty much a very high level, high power sport, and there aren't that many students that have that ability in this area. So the team was finished pretty much in '89, and that left the building empty. The pre-school gymnastics is still going. MR. TURNER-So your practical difficulty, in a sense, is the use has changed, in a sense. MRS. PETROSK I -We 11, we st i 11, it was gymnast ics and day care. MR. TURNER-No, but the use from what you originally planned for there has changed now to this? MRS. PETROSKI-It's still gymnastics, but what she's doing is a pre-school gymnastics, which we also had at the same time. MR. TURNER-Okay. MRS. EGGLESTON-So it's going to remain the same, really. is going to stay the same. The use MR. TURNER-Yes. MRS. EGGLESTON-See, I'm still trying to figure out a reason. - 65 - MRS. PETROSKI-With a different owner. I no longer own Adirondack Gymnastics. She wants to now buy that original building that I did gymnastics in, and run the program that she bought from me 1n that building, which was what it was originally designed for. MR. PHILO-Who owns the other building? MRS. PETROSKI-I do, and I still want to continue to care there. The two businesses compliment each other. to have them next door. run my day It's nice MR. HORGAN-Adirondack Gymnastics does lease right now, and there's a conflict in trying to expand it as well as Debbie wants, her business is expanding, as well, into, space 1S limited, so the move is to move into the vacant building, but with ownership. MR. CARVIN-I guess this would be the minimum variance. All right. Are we at that stage? MR. TURNER-Yes. Motion's in order. MOTION TO APPROVE AREA VARIANCE NO. &8-1993 DEBBIE Introduced by Fred Carvin who moved for its adoption, Theodore Turner: PET ROSK I, seconded by Where the applicant is proposing a two lot subdivision of 1.37 acres, on a developed commercial lot. That we grant .315 acres relief from Section 179-26C, which requires one acre as the minimum lot area in a Light Industrial One Acre zone. I also move that we grant 1.21 feet of relief for each lot from Section 179-26C, which requires the minimum of 200 feet for the lot width in the LI-1A zone. I also move that we grant 57 feet relief for each proposed lot from Section 179-26C, which requires a minimum of 200 feet for the lot depth in an LI-1A zone. I also move that we grant five feet of relief from Section 179-26C, which requires 30 feet for the side yard setbacks in the LI-1A zone. I also move that we grant .625 feet relief from Section 179-67B(2), which states that a pool shall not be less than a distance of 10 feet from a side lot line. As far as the practical difficulty in granting this variance, it is felt that the benefit to the applicant as weighed against the detriment to the health, safety, and welfare of the neighborhood or community should not be a problem. It would appear that this is the minimum relief requested to alleviate this practical difficulty. It does not appear that by granting this variance it would be detrimental to the other properties in the district or neighborhood, and there does not appear to be any effects on public facilities or services, and that by granting this variance, the proposed subdivision will result in one existing principal building on each lot. Duly adopted this 28th day of July, 1993, by the following vote: AYES: Mrs. Eggleston, Miss Hauser, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Philo, Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Carvin, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE MR. TURNER-Okay. We're going to go back to Area Variance No. 67- 1993, Adirondack Coffee. Okay, Mr. O'Connor. MR. O'CONNOR-The applicant would be willing to stipulate for the granting of an area variance to allow applicant to operate a restaurant serving exotic coffee. One, applicant will provide no on-site parking on premises. Two, applicant will lease four parking spaces from adjoining owner. Three will be adjacent to and parallel to the common boundary line, two are already shown on the plot plan. The fourth parking space will be on other lands of the adjoining owner. Three, applicant will post no && - parking signs along Luzerne Road, and applicant will petition the Town Board to post no parking on Luzerne Road, along applicant's property, and if the neighbors wish to join and have their property also posted, we would ask the Town Board to extend it, depending upon what they desire. Four, applicant's planting at corner will not impede site lines from Luzerne Road and Western Avenue. MR. TURNER-Okay. I'd like to ask the neighbors. reaction to these stipulations? What's your MS. GRIGSBY-There's isn't much I'm going to do about it, to tell you the truth, would you say? It's a little late now. I don't understand the closed door situation, Number One. I don't like that. MR. PHILO-What do you mean by the closed door? MS. GRIGSBY-With the going back and forth one at a time, when you guys decided that we were going to go out one at a time and talk this over? MR. PHILO-I don't understand what you're saying. MR. O'CONNOR-You mean when the members went out the door? MS. GRIGSBY-Right. MR. O'CONNOR-They went to the bathroom. MS. GRIGSBY-Before we left, I thought it was mentioned they were going to go discuss it. I thought you guys were discussing it wi th them. MR. CARVIN-No. MS. GRIGSBY-All right. Okay, but the only other question I was thinking about is, where the Glens Falls water line comes in, and you guys are going to do the septic. You don't know what you're doing with the septic? Because I'm just wondering, because our water line is right where they're proposing to put their septic. MR. TURNER-Where the absorption field is? MS. GRIGSBY-Yes. It runs right on their property line, the Glens Falls water line that goes to our house, underneath the road, the Queensbury water line. It comes in from the back yard. MR. TURNER-Does it? MS. GRIGSBY-Yes. It's right. house is ri ght here. It runs onto their property. Our garage, okay, right like this, the end diagonal, of our right MR. TURNER-City water there. You've got City water. MS. GRIGSBY-Right. That's why I'm wondering what's going to happen there, where the septic's. MR. NACE-You have City water, but you have? MS. GRIGSBY-I have Queensbury water. MRS. WORTH-I have Queensbury. MS. GRIGSBY-I'm billed from Queensbury. MR. NACE-It comes across their property? MS. GRIGSBY-The turn off is right on their property and the line - &7 goes right underneath. MR. O'CONNOR-And you, of course, have an easement for that. MR. PHILO-What do you say to that, Mr. Nace? MR. NACE-I say I have no idea what's going on. MR. PHILO-Me neither. MR. O'CONNOR-Well, I don't know what that has to do with the parking or the traffic. MS. GRIGSBY-I t doesn't. It was another concern I brought up. I was thinking about it, and they had said they were going to go to the regulations, but I was wondering how that was going to effect the water line. I mean, I don't want to be drinking this stuff, you know. MR. PHILO-Somebody, the engineers, when they lay this out, for this tank and everything, they'll know where the water lines and they'll probably inform you, as the next door neighbor. MR. TURNER-Where's your shut off? MS. GRIGSBY-On their property. I have fai 1 ures. I know that. The shut off, on and off, because MR. O'CONNOR-It's a legitimate question. I appreciate it being brought up. We're going to have to look at it, and we're going to have to engineer around it. MR. TURNER-You're going to have to address it. Do you understand what the stipulations are? Do you agree with that or not? MS. GRIGSBY-I don't think they're going to signs, because I don't think the taxpayers taxpayers money to put up those signs. get the appropriate are going to use MR. TURNER-They're going to have to post signs. MS. GRIGSBY-They are going to post signs, but is that going to be regulated by the police department? MR. TURNER-No. MS. GRIGSBY-So there's no grounds we have to get the cars out of the yard anyway. So what difference does it make? We have no legal means to get. MR. TURNER-That's not in our jurisdiction anyway. We don't have any control over that. All we're going to say to you is, if this is approved, there'll be no parking on Luzerne Road, period. What happens after that is a civil matter. If it's posted, then it becomes a matter for the police. MS. GRIGSBY-If they post it, the police will enforce it? MR. TURNER-They'll have to. MS. GRIGSBY-I didn't think they had to enforce something that was put up by the people? MR. TURNER-Not them. If the Town posts it. MS. GRIGSBY-If the Town posts it, then it can be enforced, the Town doesn't go along with it, then it can't be. what you're saying? but if Is that MR. TURNER-Only if they complain, I think. - &8 - '- -' MR. O'CONNOR-If it's privately posted, I think it's going to be a matter of trying to talk people into complying with it, if they're customers tell them they can't park out there, which we have no problem doing, and other people do when they have sensitive type areas. The Town has posted other streets, where they have been requested. I'm not aware of the Town Board actually denying a request on any streets. So I think it's reasonable to expect that they would approve it when we request it. MR. TURNER-Are you in favor or opposed? MRS. WORTH-I really don't know. enforce no parking there. I don't know how you're going to MR. TURNER-We can't. MRS. WORTH-How are you going to do it? guarantee that when we get home from work, to get in our driveway? You can't. How are you going to we're going to be able MR. TURNER-We guarantees. can't guarantee you anything. There's no MR. PHILO-But they're going to put the signs up, right, Mike? MR. O'CONNOR-We're going to put signs up on our property. MR. PHILO-They're going to make every effort they can do to stop, and then if they have any troubl e, can they come to the Town Board? MR. TURNER-They can, yes. MRS. WORTH-When we come home from work, and the way that area is congested, that intersection, we can't get in our driveway. We have no place to go. We're hung up right there. There's no place to go. The traffic is so fierce there. If you go this way or that way, you're hung right up there. MR. PHILO-You're going to run the place? MR. HAYES-Yes. MR. PHILO-You're going to make every effort you can to keep this traffic out of there? MR. HAYES-Absolutely. MR. PHILO-You're going to put the signs up? MR. HAYES-We are going to petition the Town Board to post it, legally. MR. PHILO-Very good. That's all I want to hear. to go to the Town Board and ask them? You are going MR. HAYES-Yes. MR. PHILO-Fine. Lets put it up for a vote. MOTION TO SERV ICE. adopt ion, APPROVE AREA VARIANCE NO. &7-1993 INC., Introduced by Fred Carv in seconded by Linda Hauser: ADIRONDACK COFFEE who moved for its Grant relief from Section parking spaces to conduct structure and lot, with street parking spaces are could be considered as 179-66B which requires eight off street business in a preexisting nonconforming the following conditions: One, 4 on allowed by the City of Glens Falls and in compliance with the Town of &9 - --- ---' Queensbury's required off street parking spaces. Number Two, that the applicant lease or rent four additional off street parking spaces from the adjacent Daggett's Vending property. Number Three, at no time will any parking spaces be allowed on Luzerne Road, and the applicant will agree to post No Parking signs on their property, and petition the Town Board to post No Parking signs on both sides of Luzerne Road. Number Four, that the applicant, in upgrading and beautifying the property, will institute and maintain all the highest safety standards to minimize and eliminate as many of the health and safety issues associated with this dangerous corner. As this lot is preexisting and nonconforming and very unique in circumstances, there does not appear to be any practical off street parking spaces to comply with the Town Ordinance. This would be the minimum relief to eliminate this practical difficulty. By granting this variance, we hope to minimize the detriment to the neighborhood by not allowing any on street parking spaces on Luzerne Road. Duly adopted this 28th day of July, 1993, by the following vote: MR. CARVIN-And that this variance subject to our review at that time. is granted for one year, MR. PHILO-Why the one year? MR. O'CONNOR-May we address the question? You're talking a very substantial investment here. You're not talking about simply walking in and using a nonconforming existing building. The landscaping of the sidewalks, the complete configuration of the lot. There's no way that you could justify doing that, not knowing that you're going to be able to use it for that purpose, beyond the one year period. You are in effect denying the application by putting the one year limitation on it. MR. PHILO-I'd tell me I've criteria, when hate to buy a house, and then one year later, they got to move out because I didn't meet certain I invested everything I've got into it. MR. CARVIN-Okay. With the agreement of my second, I will remove that one year stipulation. MR. PHILO-Thank you. MISS HAUSER-Okay. MRS. EGGLESTON-I'm voting no, and I'd like to just say, my reason being, it's maximum relief, Number One, but more importantly, it would not be in the best interest of the health, safety, and welfare of the community. AYES: Mr. Carvin, Miss Hauser, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Philo, Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Turner NOES: Mrs. Eggleston MR. O'CONNOR-Can I ask one question? You didn't give a distance as to how far on Luzerne Road you wanted us to request the Town Board to post. MR. CARVIN-Yes. I thought about that. MR. O'CONNOR-Just for clarification purposes. MR. TURNER-From there to Holden Avenue. Holden Avenue is the next street. Will that cover it? MR. CARVIN-Again, I'm not familiar with the procedure. When you apply to the Town Board, are they going to request, and I think the neighborhood would probably have a better feel for that. 70 - MR. O'CONNOR-We make a suggestion to them of an area. They then will determine whether or not they want to hold a public hearing for that purpose, then they make a decision based upon that. MR. CARVIN-My feeling, and again, this is only, and I didn't put it into the motion, but I thought about that. I thought it should be no parking all the way up to the fire house, because that road is on the hill sloping down, but I know that they have some. MR. TURNER-I think you're going to go from the corner of Luzerne starters. get a better response if you Road to Holden Avenue, for MR. CARVIN-Okay, because I know that there is a problem with the BINGO there, out at the fire house, because, boy, when they park, they're allover the place. MR. O'CONNOR-Let me, can I clarification, and can I have understanding, when we talk about is probably as I e~plained in immediate area, one is going building for an employee. ask one other question of this on the record? You're the four leased parking spots, the stipulations three in the to be tucked away behind the MR. TURNER-Three in the immediate area, which is Daggett's, which connects. Three in the immediate area, which are defined as what? MR. O'CONNOR-The two that we've shown, immediately adjacent to it. and one probably MR. TURNER-All right, then the other one will be by itself? in another area MR. O'CONNOR-Yes. MR. TURNER-Okay. MR. CARVIN-But it will st i 11 be on Daggett's? MR. TURNER-Still be on Daggett's. MR. O'CONNOR-It will employee designation. be on Daggett's, Okay. Thank you. and it wi 11 be for an MR. TURNER-Before everybody goes, previous to the ne~t meeting that we have, we're going to do some minutes, right up front, rather than wait until the last, because they're just so lengthy, we don't have time to do them, and everybody's so tired, I don't want to keep you here any later than we have to. So we'll do them right up front. On motion meeting was adjourned. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED, Theodore Turner, Chairman - 71 -