Loading...
1993-12-15 I '- ORiGINAL QUEENSBURY ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS FIRST REGULAR MEETING DECEMBER 15TH, 1993 INDEX Area Variance No. 107-1993 Joan & Mike Donnelly Area Variance No. 109-1993 Glenn F. Batease Area Variance No. 110-1993 Robert S. Dawson Area Variance No. 108-1993 Harris Bay Yacht Club 1. 5. 24. 44. THESE ARE NOT OFFICIALLY ADOPTED MINUTES AND ARE SUBJECT TO BOARD AND STAFF REVISIONS. REVISIONS WILL APPEAR ON THE FOLLOWING MONTHS MINUTES (IF ANY) AND WILL STATE SUCH APPROVAL OF SAID MINUTES. - QUEENS BURY ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS FIRST REGULAR MEETING DECEMBER 15TH. 1993 7:30 P.M. MEMBERS PRESENT THEODORE TURNER, CHAIRMAN LINDA HAUSER FRED CARVIN CHRIS THOMAS ROBERT KARPELES MEMBERS ABSENT JOYCE EGGLESTON EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR-JAMES MARTIN PLANNER-SUSAN CIPPERLY STENOGRAPHER-MARIA GAGLIARDI NEW BUSINESS: AREA VARIANCE NO. 107-1993 TYPE II WR-1A CEA JOAN & MIKE DONNELLY OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE SEELYE ROAD. OFF CLEVERDALE ROAD. ROCKHURST ROAD APPLICANT PROPOSES TO CONSTRUCT A THIRTY-FOUR (34) BY TWENTY-FOUR (24) FOOT GARAGE ATTACHED TO AN EXISTING HOUSE. SECTION 179-60B(1)(c) REQUIRES A SETBACK OF SEVENTY-FIVE (75) FEET FROM THE MEAN HIGH WATER MARK. APPLICANT PROPOSES A SHORELINE SETBACK OF TWENTY (20) FEET AND SEEKS RELIEF OF FIFTY-FIVE (55) FEET. (ADIRONDACK PARK AGENCY) (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) 12/8/93 TAX MAP NO. 16-1-13 LOT SIZE: .53 ACRES SECTION 179-60B(1)(c) JOAN & MIKE DONNELLY, PRESENT STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff, Area Variance No. 107-1993. Joan and Mike Donnelly, Meeting Date: December is, 1993 "APPLICANT: Joan and Mike Donnelly PROJECT LOCATION: Seelye Road PROPOSED ACTION: Applicant proposes to construct a thirty-four (34) by twenty-four (24) foot garage attached to an existing house. CONFORMANCE WITH USE/AREA REGULATIONS: Section 179-60B(1)(c) requires a setback of seventy-five (75) feet from the mean high water mark. Applicant is proposing a shoreline setback of twenty (20) feet and seeking relief of fifty-five (55) feet. PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY: Due to location of existing residence and septic system it is not possible to build an attached garage without a variance. ALTERNATIVES: Garage could be shortened by ten (10) feet to decrease amount of relief needed. Garage as proposed could be shifted five (5) feet west to decrease amount of relief needed, and still access dri veway. EFFECTS ON NEIGHBORHOOD/COMMUNITY: The additional impermeable surface would be wi thin the permi tted amount, but gutters and provision for onsite "disposal of stormwater runoff should be installed to mitigate impacts on Lake George. STAFF COMMENTS AND CONCERNS: No comments have been received from the public to date." MISS HAUSER-At a meeting of the Warren County Planning Board held on the 8th of December for the above application was reviewed and the following action was taken. They recommended that there was "No County Impact". MR. TURNER-Okay. Mr. Donnelly. any further comment? MR. DONNELLY-Could you read that again. the first part of the Staff Notes? - 1 - MR. TURNER-Thirty-four by twenty-four garage? MR. DONNELLY-Yes. MR. TURNER-That's what it says. MR. DONNELLY-On the alternatives. I have a. why do they want to shorten the garage ten feet? MR. TURNER-Our policy is to grant minimum relief. You just can't come up and say. I need relief from a thirty-four foot. a garage violates the shoreline setback and I want a garage thirty-four feet long. That's not the criteria for the variance. We have to grant you minimum relief and not maximize your distance from the lake. We want to get you back away from the lake. That's the idea of the shoreline setback. MR. DONNELLY-Okay. The other question I have. the garage as proposed could be shifted five feet west. That would almost bring me into. I have a window there. I don't have the measurements in front of me. I don't want to go into the window. There's a room in there. and I don't want to. MR. TURNER-Mr. Donnelly. where's your septic field? here on this side. on the north side? Is it over MR. DONNELLY-It's in the island. MR. TURNER-Okay. I didn't see it. He had the map folded up. MR. DONNELLY-Let me ask you this question. that a suggestion or? The alternatives. Is MR. TURNER-No. If you have an alternative. then we won't grant you the relief that's requested. Like I said. you just can't ask for. I understand where you're coming from. but if you have another spot that you can put the garage in and get it back 75 feet from the lake and still use that garage. then it's likely you won't get the variance. MR. DONNELLY-All right. and the alternatives. you're telling me that I have to shorten the garage by. MR. TURNER-You can shorten it. You can relocate it. You can detach it from the house. can you not? How about right over here on the north side? MR~ CARVIN-Yes. I was going to say. could you move it to the other side? MR. DONNELLY-Where. the other side of the house? MR. TURNER-Yes. on the north side. next to Monahan's. in that property there. MR. DONNELLY-That's where we. the property comes over. and that's where we go up the lake. We can see up the lake there. MR. TURNER-You've got a turnaround here. right? MR. DONNELLY-Yes. MR. TURNER-How about in here? MR. DONNELLY-There was an old. I don't know how old this goes. but there was an old. in here some place they tell me that there's an old septic tank. I guess they used to build them on concrete blocks and put tin over them. I don't know. I haven't gone into that. because there was a kitchen thing that came out here. years ago. Mr. Hembold owned the property. - 2 - MR. CARVIN-See, I'd rather grant relief coming off the side lot here than I would from the lake. At least my own personal feeling is I'd like to see the garage away from the lake as far as possible, and if you figure that this is 20 feet, you're going to pick up about 23 feet. So you'd be back about 40 some odd feet. MR. DONNELLY-Yes. MR. KARPELES-Is he going to block anybody's view if he puts it in there? MR. CARVIN-Well, he's going to block somebody's view either side he goes. MR. DONNELLY-I'm coming up here. Mr. Monahan's house is. MR. CARVIN-Well, there's a big garage. I know his house. He's got a big garage that sits right on the front of his house over there. MR. DONNELLY-See, there is an existing door there. MR. TURNER-Yes. Let me say this to you. APA. We have to establish facts. This has to go to the MR. DONNELLY-The APA is? MR. TURNER-The Adirondack Park Agency, and if they review it, and they say to us that we did not get the facts, that they'll turn it down, and then you won't have the garage there, and then you'll have to come back again. So you have to show us that, if you have an alternative, you have an alternative spot. You can put the garage over here. Then the garage is going to probably have to go there. MR. DONNELLY-See, I don't have any access to the house, outside of coming in this way. MR. TURNER-Yes, but you'd have to walk from the garage over to the house, but that's not the criteria for the variance. MRS. DONNELLY-I think the important thing is to get a garage. MR. DONNELLY-Yes. MR. TURNER-When are you looking to do this, Mr. Donnelly? MR. DONNELLY-Well, probably this spring. We'd like to get going as soon as we could. MR. TURNER-All right. Let me ask you this. Would you want to take another look at it and re-think it and then come back? t'le can table the application and give you a chance to re-think it. MR. DONNELLY-No. possible. We'd 1 ike to go ahead with it as soon as MR. TURNER-But if you change the location of the garage, then we're going to have to re-advertise it again anyway. MR. DONNELLY-I haven't done that. You think that, if we come over in that corner, we're now talking forty-three feet. MR. TURNER-I think what you ought to do is take it back, look at it again, and see, what is your alternative to the plan that you have now, and see what possibilities you have, and see where you're really going to locate the garage, and then if you have to come back to us, you'll have to come back. We can table it for 60 days, 30 days. You get it in by the next month, we'll hear it next month. - 3 - -- MR. DONNELLY-Let me ask you this. garage over here, will I have a, wheels here? If, on the recommendation of the with the APA, am I spinning my MR. TURNER-I can't say what they're goihg to say. MR. DONNELLY-But you think that recommendation would be better? MR. TURNER-Yes. I think if that goes to the APA, they're going to turn it down, if we pass it. MR. DONNELLY-All right. I would like to have. MR. TURNER-You've got a turnaround up in here even, where you could put the garage, and maybe only have setback relief on the side. MR. CARVIN-They're pretty touchy about being close to the lake. MR. TURNER-They're touchy. MR. DONNELLY-Yes. MR. TURNER-And so are we. MR. DONNELLY-It's not our problem, but the house was built on the lake I guess. MR. TURNER-Yes, that's fine, but I mean, the idea is to get the structures away from the lake. MR. DONNELLY-Where do I stand now? How do I go about this? Do I have to have? MR. TURNER-No. You can request to have it tabled. We'll table the application. You can take that back. research it, and try and find an alternative spot for that garage where yo~ only need minimum relief, either from the lake or the side, minimum. MR. CARVIN-So you could put it on the other side. You'll only need maybe, I don't know, probably twenty, twenty-five feet. MR. TURNER-Yes. It's a sum of 50 and a minimum of 20 on the sides. MR. CARVIN-And you're asking, right now. for 50 or 60, I think. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. CARVIN-I mean, if we had the choice, obviously the minimum relief would only be the 25 or so. MR. DONNELLY-Yes. this? Okay. So I have to have, how do I go about MR. TURNER-You'll have to re-draw it. Locate the garage and show the setbacks. MR. DONNELLY-On the front, and then re-file again? MR. TURNER-Yes, because they'll have to re-advertise if it's different. MR. CARVIN-Does he have to re-file, or just submit a new plan? MR. TURNER-No. are different. again? Jim, he's going to have to re-file if the setbacks Are you going to make him pay for the advertising MR. MARTIN-If you have another public hearing, it will be, yes. MR. TURNER-Yes. You really ought to think about it and locate it - 4 - where you have the least amount of relief. and where it's feasible for you. MS. CIPPERLY-And just so the Donnelly's know. there was a call from somebody representing the property to the south. concerned about whether there was going to be something close to their property line. So. keep that in mind also. MR. TURNER-He's got to have a sum of 50 and 20 on the sides. He's all right that way. but I think what you ought to. maybe not table it this time. but if you're going to reconfigure it. reconfigure the location of the garage, just withdraw the application. because they're going to make you pay for another one anyway. MRS. DONNELLY-So start from Day One? MR. TURNER-Yes. because that's our job. minimum relief. not maximum. Okay. you wish to withdraw the application? MR. DONNELLY-Yes. MR. TURNER-Okay. We don't need to vote on that. AREA VARIANCE NO. 109-1993 TYPE II WR-1A GLENN F. BATEASE OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE DREAM LAKE ROAD APPLICANT IS SEEKING RELIEF OF FOURTEEN (14) FEET FOR BOTH SIDE AND REAR SETBACKS. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) 12/8/93 TAX MAP NUMBER: 51-3-12 LOT SIZE: 3.700 SQ. FT. SECTION 179-16C GLENN BATEASE. PRESENT STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff. Area Variance No. 109-1993. Glenn F. Batease. Meeting Date: December 15, 1993 "APPLICANT: Glenn Batease PROJECT LOCATION: south side of Dream Lake PROPOSED ACTION: Applicant proposes to construct a garage with dimensions twenty- eight (28) feet by thirty (30) feet. or eight hundred forty (840) square feet. CONFORMANCE WITH USE/AREA REGULATIONS: Proposed location of garage is within six (6) feet of both the side and rear property lines. Section 179-16C. Waterfront Residential lA, requires twenty (20) foot setbacks on both the side and rear. so applicant is seeking fourteen (14) feet relief in each case. PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY: The location of the existing house and septic system leave few options open for siting a garage. ALTERNATIVES: There does not appear to be a location on the site for this size garage that would not require a variance. The amount of relief required could be reduced by building a smaller garage. or situating the garage on the west side of the house. or both. EFFECTS ON NEIGHBORHOOD/COMMUNITY: There would not appear to be any detrimental effects to the community resulting from this project. STAFF COMMENTS AND CONCERNS: Since there is a garage near the lot line on the adjacent property (for which a variance was granted). construction of this garage at the proposed location would have the advantage of concentrating structures in one area. Disadvantages would include the need for clearing of trees and the probable decline of the beech tree applicant desires to retain. due to the disruption of the site and creation of an impermeable surface over part of its root system." MISS HAUSER-The Warren County Planning Board. on December 8th. reviewed the application. and recommended that there be "No County Impact." MR. TURNER-Glenn. any comment. as far as the smaller garage? MR. BATEASE-On the smaller garage, I've got a full size pick-up, and with the snowplow in the front, I measure at 21 foot, and I figure when you have a work bench in the garage. as most do. that would take up, probably. two and a half foot or so. - 5 - MR. TURNER-Are you talking about putting the work bench all the way across the end of the garage? MR. BATEASE-It would probably be right around. MR. TURNER-How about if you left it off where you park your truck? Just put your work bench from there over. What have you got for a car. that van I saw there sitting in your yard? MR. BATEASE-Yes. and I've got a lawn tractor and a lawn mower. a couple of snow machines. So it wouldn't take much to clutter up the garage. I wanted to kind of build that so I could get that stuff in out of the weather. MR. TURNER-How about a shed some place else to put them in? You can have up to one hundred square feet without a permit. Then you could reduce the size of the garage. Again. I'm going right back to the same thing I just told the other gentleman. minimum relief. not maximum. MR. BATEASE-Well. I'd like to be able to build a garage so I have enough room to work in it, instead of building out buildings here and there. I'd rather have one garage MR. TURNER-I understand. Does anybody have any questions? MR. CARVIN-Well. I just am looking at that site. Who's garage is that? MR. TURNER-Lockhart. Ed Lockhart's. MR. CARVIN-Are you going to put it right behind that one? MR. BATEASE-Yes. directly right behind it. MR. CARVIN-Directly. yes. What's the space between it? MR. BATEASE-Between those two garages? My six foot. and his. what are you off the back line? ED LOCKHART MR. LOCKHART-I'm about 15. MR. BATEASE-Fifteen or sixteen foot. So you're talking about twenty-two foot in distance between them. MR. CARVIN-Okay. between the two? So it would be about twenty. twenty-two feet MR. BATEASE-Yes. MR. LOCKHART-I disagree. MR. CARVIN-Too much. too little? Which way do you disagree? It's farther or shorter? MR. LOCKHART-I'm Ed Lockhart. I own the property on both sides of where the. each six foot setback is proposed. From where the pins where. where the garage was looked at by one of the inspectors, I assume, is about. probably. 15. 14 feet. MR. TURNER-Fourteen feet from the back of your garage to the line? Is that what you're saying? MR. LOCKHART-Yes. MR. CARVIN-So you'd be about twenty feet with his six foot. Okay. MR. LOCKHART-Well. that six foot is. there is a property line. I - 6 - --" know we're not here to talk about property lines. We're here to talk about a garage, but there's a six foot error on somebody's line. I had my property surveyed, and paid for a survey, that shows, I don't know if you have a map. I have a map that shows also with map references and certified survey, that shows a six foot difference, and now I'm getting six foot setback. MR. TURNER-Do you end up with six foot less, or? MR. LOCKHART-One pin is beside my property line. MR. TURNER-Who's ending up with less property, you or him, or neither? MR. LOCKHART-I don't know how you could, I'd have to look at the map, as to what you're saying. I think that if any type of garage was permitted, that it should be adjoiner and not the builder, as to the lines, but how, you want to look at the property line, it's probably a judge's decision. I'm not here to dispute the line itself. If my line isn't shown on there, then you're not seeing what possibly is in error. MR. CARVIN-Also I noticed when I was out there, that looks like it's on a hill. Do you think that's going to be a real, I mean, it kind of slopes down there, and I'm just trying to figure out how you're going to. MR. BATEASE-Well, that's going to be leveled up the hill. MR. CARVIN-You've got that beech tree. lose that beech tree. I think you're going to MR. BATEASE-Well, I'm not digging down into the roots. There's going to be some fill brought in, but I'm not digging down to where it's going to get into the root structure of that beech tree. MR. CARVIN-I tried to visualize how that garage was going to fit between beech tree and the other gentleman's garage there. MR. LOCKHART-Can I leave you a copy of a map that I have. MR. TURNER-Well, wait until the public hearing, and then you can talk about what you want to talk about. MR. CARVIN-It just looked like a mission impossible. I know what you're trying to do there, and it's probably a good idea to try to get them all into one spot, but I don't know. I didn't take out my tape measure or anything, but did anybody else look at that and have the same feeling? MR. TURNER-Yes. I did. MR. THOMAS-It's close. MR. KARPELES-Yes, I did, too. It looked to me like something seems to be out of scale here. MR. BATEASE-Well, those pins weren't squared up at all. In other words, it just gave you the rough area of where it was going to be. MR. KARPELES-And then on top of that, you've got that well in there, right? MR. BATEASE-Yes. MR. KARPELES-I don't imagine you want to get right next to that, do you? MR. BATEASE-No. I don't want to dig down into it, no. - 7 - \ L' L MR. LOCKHART-You're talking about a residential area. cottages. now we're talking about a 28 by 30 structure that is not conforming with the local area. I don't believe. and as it is. the snowplow is a business. This is a residential subdivision. with a business being partaken. It's in the deed that there be no business run. MR. BATEASE-Am I supposed to shovel my driveway. or can I plow it? MR. LOCKHART-What's your business address. Glenn? Your house is your business address. MR. BATEASE-My business address is Sunnyside North. MR. CARVIN-We're getting into a public hearing at this point. MR. TURNER-Yes. Lets not discuss that. We'll take that up in a minute. Any further questions of Mr. Batease. as to the size of the garage. or setbacks. or location? Okay. Glenn. Let me open the public hearing. we'll let Mr. Lockhart have his say. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED ED LOCKHART MR. LOCKHART-Well. I'd like to maybe. I'm not opposed to anybody building a garage themselves. I had one built for myself. and I was granted a variance for that because of a hardship, and in this case. where Glenn has nearly an acre. plus he just bought another 100 feet to the east. MR. TURNER-Is that where it's cleared? Do you own that? MR. LOCKHART-Yes. We're talking about saving one tree when the whole area has been cleared. essentially. I don't know if that's anything that you should bring up. even. As far as. again. the purpose of a 30 by 28. that's larger than the average house. but I reduced the size of my garage to 20 by 22. and I gave it the maximum setback that I could. with my variance. I know it says that I was granted a variance. but anyway. I don't oppose anybody's constructing a garage. but I feel that he has enough room where he could attain without a variance on his property. and we're talking an acre and a half of land that is over there. and to come six feet off of both of illY lines. when it may not be necessary in a hardship case. is something that should be looked at. but again. I'm not opposed to him building a garage. I just feel that. with that close to my structure. also. what if there was a fire. If we're not talking any problems next to adjoining structures. then. if there was a problem. or a fire or something. it would take mine with it. MR. BATEASE-I would like to say something. You gave Ed a variance. last year. to build his garage. Ed lives in Warrensburg. He's got a camp. a one bedroom camp on the lake that he rents out. You let him put up a two story garage. it's a 10ft. The square footage of the garage is probably bigger than the camp itself. I mean. it just. you've got one bedroom and a two car garage. I mean. the square footage of the garage is bigger than the house. I mean. why shouldn't I be able to have a 28 by 30 garage. I mean. you don't even live there. You just rent it out. and build a garage. I live there. so why can't I have my garage? MR. LOCKHART-I don't see where you're even the owner of the property. MR. BATEASE-We11. it's in the deed. MR. LOCKHART-I haven't seen where deed is in your name. MR. TURNER-Glenn. let me ask you a question. while you're talking. Do you own an additional hundred feet of land to the east of what - 8 - r r I you have drawn here on this paper? MR. BATEASE-Yes. MR. TURNER-Where that's cleared out down in there, where you cleared the trees out? MR. BATEASE-Yes. MR. TURNER-Could you locate the garage down in there? MR. BATEASE-That's deeded separately. MR. TURNER-Okay. That's a separate lot? MR. BATEASE-That' s a separate lot. investment reasons. I bought that for future MR. TURNER-What's the size of the lot? One hundred by what? MR. BATEASE-One hundred by two hundred. MR. TURNER-So was that a lot of record before. that you just purchased that additional land, or is this, what's this cut off from, this lot you just bought? MR. BATEASE-That was bought this summer. MR. TURNER-Yes, but! mean, where did that come from? Was that a lot of record before, lØØ by 2ØØ? MR. BATEASE-Yes. That's the lot size. MR. TURNER-That's what you bought when you bought it? That was a lot of record? MR. BATEASE-Yes. MR. TURNER-Okay. MR. BATEASE-So that's in two different deeds. MR. TURNER-All right. right? So you bought a 20, øøø square foot lot, MR. BATEASE-Yes. MR. TURNER-That's a one acre zone. You'd need a variance to build on it anyway. You bought yourself a hardship, by buying a 2Ø,ØØØ acre lot. Why didn't you tie it in to the lots you've got? That's a self-imposed hardship. You bought it knowing that's a one acre lot, one acre lot zone. MR. BATEASE-!t can be built on though, right? MR. TURNER-Not without a variance, but you bought it and you own the adjoining property. Why didn't you tie it in with your own property? MR. BATEASE-!'d rather keep it a separate deed, in case, down the road, if ! ever did want to sell that piece of property. MR. TURNER-Twenty-four by twenty-four you couldn't live with? MR. BATEASE-!t wouldn't be big enough. MR. TURNER-Well, like! told Mr. Donnelly, minimum relief. This is not minimum relief. I can understand maybe why you want it, but when! spoke to you, when we did talk about it, that's a pretty big garage, to allow you to violate the side. - 9 - MR. BATEASE-You know how it is. with a plow in the front. You get a full size pick-up in MR. TURNER-The plow isn't on it in the summer time. the plow off, right? So you take MR. BATEASE-Yes. MR. TURNER-So that diminishes it by four or five feet. MR. BATEASE-But you've got your lawn equipment, your snowmobile, you still keep them in the winter, winter and summer. You know if you build a garage 30 by 30, it's still never big enough. I mean, you put your pick-up in your garage, you can't even hardly get out the door. MR. LOCKHART-Why are you bring ~ up? You're talking to him. MR. TURNER-I'm not against you having a garage, but I just think it's in the wrong place. I'm not against you having a garage. MR. BATEASE-Where would you suggest putting it? MR. TURNER-I would incorporate that 100 by 200 foot lot with the house that you've got and put it over there. MR. BATEASE-If I wanted to keep that on a separate deed, would you give me a variance to put it on a, a garage on a separate lot. MR. TURNER-I couldn't tell you that, but how could I support an application when you turned around and bought a 10Ø by 200, 20,000 square foot lot when you knew it was one acre lot zoned. MR. MARTIN-When was that lot created though, Ted? MR. TURNER-I don't know. That's what I'm trying to ask. When was it there? MR. BATEASE-That lot's been that size since. MR. MARTIN-It may be grandfathered. It may be. MR. BATEASE-Years and years ago. Like the lot that I bought where my house is, that was under an acre. MR. TURNER-They are now, but I'm just saying. MR. BATEASE-I think that is grandfathered where it can be built on, because that lot's always been that size, just like Ed's property where his camp is. MR. TURNER-Yes, that's true. You're right, because that's true, if it always was that. MR. BATEASE-It always was that. MS. CIPPERLY-Excuse me, Ted. I did look this up, and I didn't bring a copy of the map, but there's, his lot his number ten. and then eleven. It was part of a larger subdivision which also, I think, included the Lockhart piece. and it is a separate deeded lot. and it appeared that it would have been a grandfathered lot. MR. LOCKHART-You'd still need a variance if you're under half an acre. MS. CIPPERLY-Not if you're grandfathered and you can meet the setbacks. MR. TURNER-Only if you can't meet the setbacks. Okay. anybody else have any questions? I've said my piece. Does - 10 - MR. THOMAS-Yes. Mr. Lockhart. when was that variance granted. last year you said? MR. LOCKHART-Yes. MR. THOMAS-I don't remember. I've been here for almost two years. MR. TURNER-Two years ago. MR. LOCKHART-I'm under a six month extension on my. it was a year and a half ago. MR. THOMAS-How far does it sit off that back property line. that garage? MR. LOCKHART-My variance was like. I got a variance. a side variance of 12 feet. MR. THOMAS-And a rear variance? MR. LOCKHART-And the rear was. the rear it shows like 15 feet off. MR. THOMAS-Off that property line? that to me. It looked a lot closer than MR. LOCKHART-Because of the size of the area in there. MR. THOMAS-That garage sits all by itself. Is there a house that goes with that. or is there going to be? MR. LOCKHART-I have a house right down the hill from there. and you can't build near the house because of where it sits. on that slope right there. If you were there. you could see the situation. MR. THOMAS-When did you start building that garage? MR. LOCKHART-During the summer time. MR. THOMAS-During the summer? Has that power line been in there? Was it in there when you started building? MR. LOCKHART-I believe so. They put it in a couple of years ago. a few years ago. MR. THOMAS-Do you realize that power line is real close to that building. as would a garage bui I t by Mr. Batease would be too close. MR. LOCKHART-The line could be strung higher. don't know what distance I'm off it. It is sagging. I MR. THOMAS-It's less than the 10 feet required by the NEC. as would this variance here. if Mr. Batease got it. That's my concern right there. is both of those buildings are too close to that power line. and I think Niagara Mohawk probably does have an easement for that line to be there. It was granted by somebody. MR. LOCKHART-And my line is over 10 feet. the building from that line. I know that. as far as that goes. MR. THOMAS-Is that by your survey. or by the disputed property line? MR. LOCKHART-As far as mY survey. I paid a surveyor to survey my land. As far as the adjoiner on the other side. holds the same point as what I have. Again. I'm not here to dispute property lines. or power lines or whatever. I'm only saying that a six foot setback. on both sides of my line. is what I'm asking. again. It's not against him building something that he wants for his property. That's the only reason I'm here. I'm not here to stop anything - 11 - that he is trying to do. only to say that where a hardship case could be involved. then one has to have a compromise. but with this property. I don't see a hardship. I mean. I'm not disputing the power lines or the property lines or anything else. but my property line and his property line are not in agreement. and if he takes the six foot offset from his property line. then it's going to put that building directly on my property. as surveyed by certified surveyor. and all surveyed by a licensed surveyor. MR. BATEASE-Another thing I'd like to bring up. The variance that he has. to let him build right in the middle of a right-of-way. MR. LOCKHART-I did not build. my map shows it off the right-of-way. as according to the surveyor. and I would not build it in where there could be a potential problem. MR. TURNER-When you came for your variance. was your garage twenty- four by twenty-four? It was bigger than what you built. isn't it? Didn't you say it's 21 now? MR. LOCKHART-I'd have to look on. I presented my map at my meeting. as far as what I have. MR. TURNER-Yes. but I mean. didn't we make you reduce the size of the garage? MR. LOCKHART-I did reduce it to a 20 by 22. and I presented plans that ~ had for my garage to Queensbury. My garage is not larger than my house. It's 20 by 22. as was inspected. MR. TURNER-Okay. Any comments? MR. KARPELES-Yes. I don't think we've explored. yet. what's wrong with the alternative of moving the garage to the west side of the house? MR. BATEASE-Whereabouts on the west side? location? Down along the treeline. or? Have you seen the MR. KARPELES-Yes. well. just on the west side up there. so that you can get your minimum relief that would be necessary. MR. BATEASE-Well. the reason why I wanted to put it up in that back corner was that's the last useable piece of property I have there. I was trying to keep what lawn I have there. instead of putting a garage right smack in the middle of the back yard. I wanted to keep what lawn I have. MR. CARVIN-I don't have any real comments. I just have a hard time with the size of the garage. and I think the placement is questionable. I think it's a tough place to put a garage. MR. TURNER-Yes. it is. MR. CARVIN-Unfortunately. I don't have any alternatives. I mean. he's got a septic system on the east side there. So he really can't put it there. and if you put it over on the other corner here. I don't know if that's going to be. up in here. I'd rather see it this side than putting it so close to the other garage. MR. TURNER-Which side. the east side? MR. CARVIN-Yes. MR. TURNER-The east side. MR. BATEASE-The trouble with it down at the end of the driveway. coming down in there. it's usually slippery in the winter. and plus you need a running start to get out of there. - 12 - MR. TURNER-This is a disputed line. Even if we grant him six feet of relief. how do we know where the line is? MR. CARVIN-It's a right-of-way driveway, right? MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. CARVIN-I mean, it's a landlocked piece of. or parcel. other than that. I guess. I just think the garage is too big. I mean. we've had this running gun battle with these garage sizes. I mean. they keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger all the time. MR. MARTIN-Is there any opportunity to put the garage on the vacant lot? MR. TURNER-No. That was my question. He said. no. he didn't want to do it. MR. CARVIN-He didn't want to do that. MR. TURNER-He didn't want to do it because he wanted to keep it for an investment. MS. CIPPERLY-Well, you could sell it as an investment with a garage on it. Then if somebody wanted to build a house. there'd already be a garage there. MR. THOMAS-Yes, but then he's back to Square One. He's got to have a garage for his house. Now what's he do? MR. CARVIN-I mean. I suppose the garage could go there. but I'd like to see it smaller. I guess. I just think a 28 by 30 is a pretty good sized garage. MR. TURNER-Yes. I do. Okay. Any further questions of Mr. Lockhart. anyone? Okay. Anyone else wish to be heard in support of the application? Opposed to the application? Hearing none. the public hearing's closed. PUBLIC HEARIHG CLOSED MR. TURNER-Okay. Board discussion. Any further comment? You want to see it smaller. right? You have a problem with the location of the power line. right? MR. THOMAS-Yes. If he moved it four feet down or whacked four feet off the garage. you've got it 10 feet back from that property line. MR. TURNER-That's what I'm saying. That garage is too big. MR. THOMAS-Then I have no problem where it is right now. MR. TURNER-This is residential, 24 by 24 garage. is a garage. MR. THOMAS-It still comes under the 900 square foot that he's allowed by the Ordinance. but if he could move it down four feet, or take four feet off that one side. just any way to get it 10 feet off that property line. MR. CARVIN-Yes. As I said. we keep bumping in to that silly beech tree. MR. THOMAS-Well. I think that Beech tree's had it. MS. CIPPERLY-It's going to die anyway when you put that. MR. CARVIN-Yes. I think the Beech tree has had it. or. like I said. just put it over on the other side here. a smaller garage on the other side, right over on the east side of the lot. - 13 - MR. TURNER-Do you hear what they're saying. over here. on the east side, a smaller garage? MR. CARVIN-He's going to have a problem on the hill. wherever he puts it. MR. TURNER-You've got 30 feet there. MR. BATEASE-See. if you put it here. you're coming down into the. MR. TURNER-What are you going to do with this parking area once you get the garage? MR. BATEASE-Well, no. no. See, this is all lawn. and all this is trees here. I've got my drywells here. I can't be running over them. See, there's this 1.000 gallon tank. these are my two drywells. and I can't put the garage here. because coming down in. I'd be plowing right into it. because it's slippery, plus. coming up out of here. when there's snow coverage, it's a bear getting out of there. MR. TURNER-Right. You're going to have the same problem coming out of there on this side of the garage, or on this side of the hill. MR. BATEASE-I could come down, swing it in, then you could back out down to here, and then get your running start out. That's what we're doing now. We're just parking and turning around and getting a running start out. MR. TURNER-Yes, you're parking right here. MR. BATEASE-I mean, it doesn't look like much of a grade, but when you've got to get a running start to get going. MR. TURNER-Yes. it's a grade. I was in there today. MR. CARVIN-The biggest grade is right in that area. as far as I remember. I think you're putting the garage in the most difficult spot. MR. BATEASE-Well. you're digging down, I can put my footings in here and here. and then taper them up with fill, so you've got your four foot, or you could shave it down and pour monolithic. MR. CARVIN-What I'm saying is you could also do it on this side, here, too, right? MR. BATEASE-No. See. when you come in here. I need a running start to get out of here. and when you're coming down in here, when it's slippery, you have all you can do to stop. right here. I mean, because the hill starts right here. and we're parking on the flat. I figure, if the garage is here, you could back out, back down to here, and then get your running start out again. MR. LOCKHART-That's not an accurate depiction of the map, as far as where the property is. It doesn't show anything on my corner. or where we're coming off of. I've just got a problem with the setbacks, especially being that. what is said to be my property line is not going to meet with the setback for his garage. If he's going to use his setback and if he is granted a variance, it's not going to meet with what I have for a line. but judge to be what I own as much as he does his line. If you gave him a 12 foot variance. it's going to be a 6 foot for me. MISS HAUSER-If you took down that Beech tree, is the topography such that you could move the garage forward? MR. BATEASE-Yes. if I took that Beech down, I could probably build right in the center of that, but the tree's got to be, I don't know how old, but it's one of the nicer trees on the piece of property. - 14 - MISS HAUSER-That would get you more than six feet away from the side here. That should eliminate his problem. MR. BATEASE-Now, are you concerned about the power lines being, from the center of the power lines over? MR. THOMAS-Yes. It's supposed to be 10 feet either side. MR. BATEASE-That would clear that, I'm sure. Did you look it over close when you were there? MR. THOMAS-Yes, real close. MR. BATEASE-Well, if you strung a line down from the power line, as long as I've got 10 foot off of that? MR. THOMAS-Yes, if you were 10 foot back. MR. BATEASE-There wouldn't be a problem there? MR. THOMAS-There wouldn't be a problem, that's why I'm pretty sure that power line runs right down their property line. I didn't see any pins or anything, but if it's 10 foot off that power line, that would alleviate mY concern. MR. BATEASE-You could always have them move the pole again, right? MR. THOMAS-What's that? MR. BATEASE-The power pole. MR. THOMAS-Which one, yours or Niagara Mohawk's? MR. BATEASE-Mine. MR. THOMAS-Well, it's not yours that I'm worried about, it's the power line. It's Niagara Mohawk's wire that I'm worried about. It's got 4800 volts in it now. It's going to probably have 760Ø in it pretty soon. MR. BATEASE-But since their power pole is on my property, so, they could move that up hill, away from the lake, on that last pole, if they needed to. MR. THOMAS-You'd be willing to pay for that location, about $2500? MR. BATEASE-I don't know, but I just, I'm trying to keep what lawn I can. MR. THOMAS-I wouldn't have any problem with the size of the garage now, if you slid it down four feet. By experience, Beech trees, they snap real easy in the wind. MR. BATEASE-I could always use the firewood, right? MR. THOMAS-That's right. MR. BATEASE-I'd be willing to take that down, if I can get, just as long as you want me 10 foot off that power line. MR. THOMAS-I want, if you can get 10 foot off that power line, that's all I really care, and then if the property line conflict comes in, well then, so be it. I don't know where that's going to end up. MR. LOCKHART-Again. here's the corner point, this little capped iron rod, set by Webber, is up here, and the map distance and deed distance that is filed for this whole subdivision, and what the map references show, from other surveyors, all I'm saying is. I'm not - 15 - here to dispute property lines. MR. BATEASE-Excuse me. You see this here, drawn by EDL, that's Edward D. Lockhart. He drew this map, and he had this other guy sign it. MR. LOCKHART-That's a certified map. I drew this map so that I could have septic variance, but I have a certified map that. MR. BATEASE-But you drew that map though, right? MR. LOCKHART-Well, it doesn't matter, Glenn. This map is to scale, and the property lines are shown as such that it's a certified by a surveyor, and if you want to check anyone of those lots. it shows the property lines, all I'm saying is that one should look at the property lines. All I'm saying is that once you look at the property line situation, as far as the setback condition. That's all I'm asking, because of a six foot setback was put on my property line, as surveyed by these surveyors and Morse Engineering, where I worked when this map was done, for the septic system. MR. BATEASE-You're in the survey business, right? MR. LOCKHART-I do work surveying, but I'm not slanderous in putting a map out that I would, I have no right to survey a map, because I'm not licensed. MR. CARVIN-Where's the north arrow? MR. LOCKHART-North is straight up. MR. CARVIN-So here's your power line. So your pole's got to be right in here some place. That looks like the pole right there. I just don't know what 20 feet would be, but my guess is that he could put a garage in here, 20 feet off the property line. MR. KARPELES-I don't think you'd even need a variance. MR. CARVIN-No. MR. TURNER-No, he wouldn't. MR. CARVIN-Is this roughly 20 feet, from here to here, from this point to this point, in other words, 20 foot required setback. MR. LOCKHART-It shows what the required setbacks were, and what the proposed. MR. CARVIN-One inch equals twenty feet. I think it's flatter in here. I think you could put it twenty feet off the front line and not even need a variance. That's my own personal opinion, because I think if he's trying to cram it up in here, he's putting it in the most difficult spot. MR. THOMAS-I would go along with 10, just 10 feet off that property line rather than 20, because you push it too far down that hill, I mean, that's going to disrupt everything down there, and the other one is 12 feet off. according to his map, according to Mr. Lockhart's map. If he can have 12 feet, why can't Mr. Batease have 12 feet? MR. TURNER-He told me it was 14 off, the rear setback. MR. CARVIN-If he moves it down 20, he could do his 28 by 30, because he's within the 900 square feet. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. THOMAS-That's right. He's under his 900 anyway, but why not go - 16 - 14 feet down from the property line, rather than 20? MISS HAUSER-I think, aesthetically, maybe it would look good closer to (lost word) instead of shoved up here to the house. MR. TURNER-It's just a matter of personal choice, where he wants it to go, and that's not the criteria for a variance. MR. THOMAS-No. I know. MR. WOODCOCK-Mr. Chairman, is it too late for me to say something? MR. TURNER-Well, I asked if anybody wanted to speak, and nobody. MR. WOODCOCK-Well, I didn't hear you, honest. That's what pretty near 80 years does to my ears. MR. TURNER-All right. I'll give you the pleasure of having your input. I'll open the public hearing just for Mr. Woodcock. PUBLIC HEARING RE-OPENED BILL WOODCOCK MR. WOODCOCK-Some of you people may know me. I'm Bill Woodcock. I live on Dream Lake. I run a well drilling business over in the Town of Hartford. I own some property opposite Mr. Lockhart's and Mr. Batease's. That land was laid out, as we all know, many years ago, when there wasn't such a thing as a Planning Board, when there wasn't such a thing as a septic tank. There wasn't anything but what man lived by what he could afford to do. We all bought 100 foot lots. Mr. Batease bought one. Eddie Lockhart bought one, man up on top of the hill by the name of Gallagher bought one, you were up there, and everybody built a house. Now you're trying to take property that was set up back 50 years ago, rules and regulations, 100 foot by 100 foot, you're trying to say that you can't build anything on them because it doesn't come up to today's standards. What are people supposed to do with the land that they bought and pay taxes on, I know you all pay taxes too, but what is he supposed to do with it, just let it sit there and keep paying taxes on it the rest of his life? He bought it to use. So why not let the man use it. I can't see this regulations, regulations, regulations to keep people depressed. You built a house where you wanted it. MR. TURNER-No. I didn't build it. I bought it. MR. WOODCOCK-Well, then you bought it. You've got a shop where you want it. I've got a house. I built it where I want it. I've got a shop where I want it. What's all this hashing around that keeps people depressed. All the Town wants out of it is pay your taxes. Don't do anything. Just pay the taxes. MR. TURNER-No, that's not the case. MR. WOODCOCK-I think it is, Ted. I think it is. MR. TURNER-The preexisting nonconforming lots are lots of record. They can build on them. Nobody's taking that away. He's asking to put a garage six feet from the property line. He's got a lot of room to put a garage farther away from that property line than it's required. MR. WOODCOCK-That isn't where he wants the garage. to individuals, one, two, three, four, five, six, that nobody can do, only what we say to do. What's happened seven people say MR. TURNER-No. We fall under the same rule. MR. WOODCOCK-I think you're wrong, Teddy. I think you're wrong. - 17 - MR. TURNER-We fall under the same rules, too. MR. WOODCOCK-Yes, because you're behind them. MR. TURNER-No. MR. WOODCOCK-Yes, you are. MR. TURNER-No. I had to get a permit to build on my house. I had to draw up a drawing and everything and show them the setbacks and everything. That's no different than Mr. Batease or anybody else. MR. WOODCOCK-I don't see it, folks. I think Mr. Batease should build a garage if he wants one. We both know that a 24 foot square garage isn't big enough to get a car in. MR. TURNER-He can have up to a 900 square foot garage, but I'm just saying, I said to him, if you want to keep it there, can you reduce it so you can gain some setback. That was the only reason for that. MR. WOODCOCK-A 24 by 24 is not big enough for a garage, that's outside measurements, and I know cars, and you do, too, and I'm talking about cars, snow plows, that measured 21 foot six inches, because I measured one yesterday. MR. TURNER-That's fine, but he can have a 900 square foot garage, too, Bill. He's got 840 in this one¡ but he wants to put it six foot from the line. MR. WOODCOCK-Why not put it six foot ,from the line? MR. TURNER-What if he had two or three acres? Do you want to put him six feet from the line, just because he wants it there, when he could put it, meet the setbacks? MR. WOODCOCK-If it's his land, he bought it, he paid for it, the same as you did. MR. TURNER-That's fine. MOTION TO DENY AREA VARIANCE NO. 109-1993 GLENN F. BATEASE, Introduced by Fred Carvin who moved for its adoption, seconded by Robert Karpeles: The applicant is proposing to construct a garage with the dimensions of 28 feet by 30 feet, and is seeking relief of 14 feet from the side and rear yard setbacks, as outlined in Section 179- 16C. It does not appear that the applicant has demonstrated that the difficulty was not self-created. It does appear that there are other options available for the garage to be built in compliance with the current zoning regulations. Duly adopted this 15th day of December, 1993, by the following vote: MR. THOMAS-Wait a minute, before you vote. It's not a question on the motion. It's a comment before the vote. If Mr. Batease would agree to move the garage down, not the 20 feet that he's required, I mean, could we come up with some sort of compromise, so that he can have his garage? Is there any discussion on compromise? MR. KARPELES-I don't think anybody's convinced he can't have his garage, and still get the 20 feet relief. This map doesn't show you a darn thing, as far as scale, being to scale. MR. THOMAS-Well, it's not to scale, but if you visit the property, you can see, because the four corners of the garage were staked out. - 18 - MR. KARPELES-Yes. right. but it looks to me like there's plenty of room. he could still have his 20 feet clearance. MR. THOMAS-By moving it down the hill? MR. KARPELES-By moving it down the hill. MR. CARVIN-Yes. I mean. he'd lose the Beech tree. I mean. that's the problem. as I see it. is the Beech tree. MR. KARPELES-If he wants to do a drawing and show that he can't do that. that's something else. but it sure would appear as though there's room enough. MR. CARVIN-See. I think this map is. this diagram is very misleading. MR. THOMAS-If you look at it in the field. and forget about the diagram. you really. what it looks like on paper and what it looks like in the field. as we all know. it looks a lot different. and I would say. if he slid that thing 14 feet off the property line. and gave him the relief of six feet. MR. TURNER-Fourteen down the hill. you mean. towards Dream Lake? MR. THOMAS-Yes. right. MR. TURNER-Well. he'd still have to cut the tree down. MR. THOMAS-That's just mY opinion. MR. BATEASE-I'd be willing to take the tree down if I have to. I can always plant more trees. MR. THOMAS-So. instead of a 14. let them slid another six. and make it the twenty that he needs? MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. BATEASE-I've got a new house with a finished off basement. and it's so cluttered up with lawn mowers and all that other stuff. that I can't use my basement. MR. TURNER-We've all got a bunch of toys that we don't have room to put them any place. MR. BATEASE-Most people have a garage. should be able to have a garage. If you have a house. you MR. TURNER-We're not denying you the garage. We're just denying where you want to put it. if that's what it comes down to. MR. BATEASE-I'd be willing to take that tree down and move it down. MR. TURNER-You can certainly have a 900 square foot garage. and if you move it down the hill. and you keep your 20 foot margin. you don't need. even. to come here. MR. BATEASE-Yes. I don't want to push that garage way out into the middle of the yard. MR. TURNER-I don't think you have to. You've got 20. and then you've got 28. going to move it. Twenty feet isn't that far. You've got 28 feet you're MR. BATEASE-So can we just slide it down. down hill? MR. TURNER-That's what we're saying. down the hill. MR. THOMAS-If you slid it down the hill 14 feet. you'd be 20 feet - 19 - off that back property line. How far you'd be off the side. I don't know. You really can't tell by the scale on this map. MR. CARVIN-If he wants to slide it down the hill 20 feet. I mean. but it would have to be scaled better than what this is. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. THOMAS-Yes. MR. CARVIN-If he wants to come back and resubmit from the side yard. I'd have no problem with that. MR. BATEASE-Is it going to cost me $50 again? MR. TURNER-This is supposed to be to scale. MR. BATEASE-Well. you have all the dimensions there. MR. TURNER-Yes. but that doesn't tell us anything. When we start migrating down the hill. we could figure the dimensions. that way. now we can't do it. MR. BATEASE-But the pins are there. So just measure down. MR. TURNER-Why don't you just table the application for now. take it back. and re-Iocate the garage down the hill. give us the right dimensions. draw a diagram to scale. and then we'll know what we're talking about. MR. BATEASE-So then does that take me into the end of next month again? MR. TURNER-It would take you to next month, that's all. MR. BATEASE-By then everything will be froze up. get started on it before. I was hoping to MR. TURNER-It won't be frozen. You get snow cover, you're only going to have a couple of inches on it. a couple of inches of snow. MR. BATEASE-It's going to set me back another month. MR. TURNER-I know. but they shouldn't even have accepted that right there. That has to be drawn to scale. MR. BATEASE-That's all they had to say when I brought it in. that won't go through, and I would have drawn something different. MR. TURNER-We have even taken applications and not even heard them because they weren't drawn to scale. MR. BATEASE-When I brought it in. they said that was okay. MR. TURNER-It's not. I know. but it's not. application. drawn to scale. It's right on the MR. BATEASE-So I've got to wait another month just because it's not to scale? MR. TURNER-If you move the garage down the hill. we don't know what the dimensions are going to be. and neither do you. So what are we going to grant you relief from? MR. BATEASE-Th~ measurements of the garage? MR. TURNER-No, no, the setbacks. MR. CARVIN-In other words. you can move it down the hill 20 feet and bring it in 20 feet off the side. and you wouldn't even have to - 20 - apply for a variance. MR. TURNER-You wouldn't have to come. MR. CARVIN-But what I'm saying is if you move it down the hill 20 feet and you're only six or eight feet off the side line. then you're going to need a variance. MR. TURNER-That's what we're saying. MR. CARVIN-That's all we're saying. You see, I don't know where this garage. what it looks like. In other words, like I said. yes. the 20 feet here is probably not the problem. but it's this side here, is where he's got a problem. MR. BATEASE-Did you go out and look at the site? MR. CARVIN-Yes. I sure did. MR. BATEASE-And you know where the Beech tree is? MR. CARVIN-Yes. MR. BATEASE-Well. the garage is going to be way out in front of that. That Beech tree is probably. the back of that is probably. MR. CARVIN-That's what I'm saying. I mean. the problem with moving it down the hill is the Beech tree. MR. BATEASE-I was just trying to keep what yard I had. instead of having a garage that blocked the whole house out. MR. CARVIN-I hear you there. As I said. we're. we can only grant minimum relief. and as it stands right now. or as it appears right now. that this is maximum relief. because you have other alternatives. You could conceivably move it down and still comply with the Town's guidelines. MR. BATEASE-It would keep the six off the back and just move down the hill? MR. CARVIN-No. In other words. the Town says 20 feet from both side yards. So in other words, you've got the room in here to do that. There's no practical difficulty why you can't do that. MR. BATEASE-I pushed it back as far as I could, so it's not sticking right out in front of the house. MR. CARVIN-Well. what I'm saying is that you've got the 20 feet here. and I agree. I would be more comfortable giving you on this side. so it doesn't stick in front of your house, but as this is drawn. and the way I remember being out there. I still think that there's plenty of room. I don't think that that's a real situation. Now I may be wrong. unless I've got a scaled map that shows me exactly what the garage is going to look like. in relation to the house. I'm saying that you have plenty of room to put that garage off the line. MR. BATEASE-You' ve got the measurements where the house si ts. right. on that? MR. CARVIN-Okay, but I don't know what it is here. the hill is the house? It's not on there. I know from the lake, but I have no idea what it is here. I what the distance is from here to here. Tell me. How far down it's 80 feet have no idea MR. TURNER-That's what we've got to have. MR. CARVIN-Tell me that it sits right in front of your house. I mean. from the looks of this. is this the scale? - 21 - MR. BATEASE-The house is 44 foot long. MR. CARVIN-All right. but if this is 28, I mean, it's as big as your house. Are you telling me you're building a garage as big as your house? MS. CIPPERLY-Excuse me. The only measurement on here that seems to be really bad is the fact that his house is 80 feet from the lake. MR. CARVIN-This square, I bet if I measure this, this square is bigger than that square. It's not to scale. Do you see what I'm saying? In other words, looking at the site and the map. and I'm not saying that the other gentleman's map is correct, but it would appear that you've got 20 feet here. and you could bring it in 20 feet here. You could go whatever size garage, up to 900 square feet, that you wanted. MR. TURNER-Without even coming here. MR. CARVIN-There's no reason. There's no septic system. There's no electric power poles. There's no reason why you couldn't do that. I still don't have a problem bringing it 20 feet off here and then giving him relief on this side, but until we have those dimensions, we can't give him relief. because the lot slopes away. I'm not being argumentative here. I'm just saying that the map is not a good map. MR. MARTIN-Ted. do you want to re-open the public hearing and table it until your meeting next week? MR. TURNER-Yes. we could, because. really, you should come with some dimensions that we can understand. MR. BATEASE-Well, I'll build a better map. MR. CARVIN-See, I think you can bring this down the hill 20 feet, and if you're only five or six feet off here, that's probably going to be a lot better, that'll be minimum relief. MR. MARTIN-Table it with the provision that he has to have a map in by the end of this week. If he doesn't. then it's off 'til next month. MR. CARVIN-I know what you're trying to do, but I'm just saying, based on this map, I don't know if this house. Sue just tells me that the house actually sits back in here some place. MS. CIPPERLY-You've got more space between the garage and the house than is shown. That's what looks different. MR. MARTIN-All you need is a sheet of quarter scale graph paper, and you can do it right. MR. BATEASE-Okay. When is this next meeting? MR. CARVIN-Next Wednesday. MR. MARTIN-It's a week from tonight. MR. TURNER-Next Wednesday, the 22nd. MR. BATEASE-Okay. MR. TURNER-I'll open the public hearing. and you agree to table it, and get your map in by the 22nd. and we'll hear it next week. If you don't. you're off for another month. MR. BATEASE-Okay. It'll be here on the 22nd. MR. TURNER-Okay. - 22 - MR. MARTIN-Well, I'd like to have it a little early. so we have a chance to look at it. Say. like. bring it to Sue by, what, Monday you figure? MR. TURNER-Yes. Can you get it to her by Monday? MR. BATEASE-Yes. I'll take care of that. MR. TURNER-Okay. MR. CARVIN-Mr. Chairman. I'd like to withdraw my motion. with my second's approval. MR. TURNER-Okay. I'll open the public hearing. and Mr. Batease, we'll table this application until next week. MOTION TO TABLE AREA VARIANCE NO. 109-1993 GLENN F. BATEASE. Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved for its adoption. seconded by Fred Carvin: Tabled until next week. and Mr. Batease provides the Board with a map drawn to scale showing the location of the garage. and if he is not here next week. it will be off for another month. Dul y adopted thi s 15th day of December, 1993, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Carvin, Miss Hauser. Mr. Thomas. Mr. Turner NOES: NONE ABSENT: Mrs. Eggleston AREA VARIANCE NO. 110-1993 TYPE: UNLISTED SFR-20 ROBERT S. DAWSON OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE COUNTRY CLUB ROAD. NORTH OF SWEET ROAD ON THE LEFT APPLICANT PROPOSES TO CONSTRUCT A NINE HUNDRED FIFTY-TWO (952) SQUARE FOOT GARAGE/WORKSHOP, IN ADDITION TO AN EXISTING FIVE HUNDRED SEVENTY-SIX (576) SQUARE FOOT ATTACHED GARAGE. RELIEF IS SOUGHT FROM SECTION 179-7. WHICH ALLOWS A GARAGE WHICH SHALL NOT EXCEED NINE HUNDRED (900) SQUARE FEET IN AREA. TOTAL SQUARE FOOTAGE OF GARAGE SPACE PROPOSED IS FIFTEEN HUNDRED FORTY-EIGHT (1.548), APPLICANT IS SEEKING RELIEF OF SIX HUNDRED FORTY-EIGHT (648) SQUARE FEET. APPLICANT ALSO SEEKS RELIEF OF SEVEN (7) FEET FROM THE FIFTEEN (15) FOOT SIDE SETBACK REQUIRED BY SECTION 179-20C. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) 12/8/93 TAX MAP NUMBER: 65-2-5.2 LOT SIZE: 2.56 ACRES SECTION 179-20 MICHAEL MULLER. REPRESENTING APPLICANT. PRESENT STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff. Area Variance No. 110-1993. Robert S. Dawson, Meeting Date: December 15. 1993 II APPLICANT: Robert S. Dawson PROJECT LOCATION: 60 Country Club Road Note: Zoning is SFR-1A. not SFR-20 as stated on application. PROPOSED ACTION: Applicant proposes to construct a thirty-four (34) by twenty-eight (28) foot freestanding garage which would include a workshop area occupying slightly less than one-third of the proposed square footage. and separated from vehicle storage by a wall. There is an existing twenty-four (24) by twenty-four (24) foot attached garage. CONFORMANCE WITH USE/AREA REGULATIONS: Section 179- 20, SFR-1A requires a minimum of twenty (20) feet for a side yard setback. Applicant proposes a setback of eight (8) feet, and seeks relief of twelve (12) feet. Section 179-7. Definitions ACCESSORY USE: The TERM II Accessory Use II applies to a singular use on a property. Applicant has two garages and seeks relief from the Section. GARAGE: An accessory building used primarily to store automobiles which shall not exceed nine hundred (900) square feet in area. Applicant is seeking relief of fifty-two (52) square feet for the - 23 - proposed garage, plus five hundred seventy-six (576) square feet for the existing attached garage. Total relief sought is six hundred twenty-eight (628) square feet. BOAT STORAGE: A place, si te or structure used to park, house or store (3) or fewer vessels. ..owned by the property owner. Since the applicant plans to store his boat in one of the garages, whichever one it is stored in may be more properly termed private boat storage than a garage, if no automobiles are also kept there. PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY: Due to location of existing driveway and house, proposed location is the most logical for a garage, but as proposed cannot meet side setbacks. ALTERNATIVES: To reduce or eliminate need for setback variance: 1. Reduce the twenty-eight foot dimension to twenty- four (24) feet, yielding a twelve (12) foot side setback. 2. Move the garage five (5) feet closer to the house, yielding a five (5) foot opening instead of ten (10) and yielding a thirteen (13) foot setback. 3. Doing both of the above and yielding a seventeen (17) foot setback. TWO GARAGE RELIEF: As stated above, if applicant were to use one structure primarily for boat storage rather than automobiles. it could be determined by the Board not to be a garage. EFFECTS ON NEIGHBORHOOD/COMMUNITY: Considering that this garage is proposed for a two and sixty-four hundredths (2.64) acre lot in a rural residential setting and that it would be situated one hundred fifty (150) feet from the front property line, it does not seem there would be a community impact. Verbal comments have been expressed regarding possible noise emanating from the workshop. This property is subject to deed restrictions more restrictive than the Town of Queensbury Code in regard to setbacks; a restriction against outdoor storage of boats also exists. It is not the role of the Zoning Board of Appeals to enforce or to consider deed restrictions or any other legalities outside the Queensbury Zoning Ordinance. STAFF COMMENTS AND CONCERNS: No further comment." MISS HAUSER-And on December 8th, the Warren County Planning Board recommended that there be "No County Impact" on the application. MR. TURNER-Mr. Muller. MR. MULLER-Good evening. For the record. My name is Michael Muller. and Rob Dawson is to my right. He's the applicant. MR. CARVIN-I'd like a couple of questions, before you start. First of all, are you the owner of the property? ROBERT DAWSON MR. DAWSON-Yes. MR. CARVIN-Okay. because that was not completed on mY application, and I also do not have a signed Agent Authorization. Do we have one on file? MR. MULLER-No. you don't. Mr. Dawson and I met and discussed this about two days ago. Would you like him to say on the record why I'm here? Would that be suitable? Do you want me to sign each copy. if you have one? MR. TURNER-She's probably got one you can sign. MR. MARTIN-I would recommend they sign the copy. We have the original file. If they would sign that at the conclusion of the meeting. MR. CARVIN-Just a minor thing. but. MR. MULLER-As I was saying. Mr. Dawson is to my right. He is the owner of the property. and the applicant. We'd like to propose to you that we are suggesting the only feasible alternative to accomplish what we would like to accomplish, in asking for the minimum relief. In support of that, we wish to suggest to you that - 24 - we don't need any setback relief at all. because we're not going to build a garage where it's shown. and the reason for that is because Mr. Valente. who I assume is the principal of Valente Builders. Inc.. he has the right to enforce restrictive covenants on this property. and I met with Mr. Dawson and Mr. Dawson also met with Mr. Valente. The discussion basically surrounded the fact that the setback on the side would be 40 feet. So even if you were kind enough to grant the relief. you can't use it. So the singular relief that we're looking for here is that we'd like to be allowed to still build this garage and still at the same size. and in addressing where it's going to go. you just don't need any setback relief. It would go approximately where you see 2.56 acres written on your map. but the size remains the same. and the uses remain the same. Now. the problem that Mr. Dawson has. quite frankly. is that he has a truck. He has two snowmobiles on a trailer. He has a large boat that's on a trailer. and I'm here to say that Mr. Dawson and Mr. Valente would like to both see that under cover. and the best way to do that and still be allowed to keep them on the property would be to place them in this garage. It is indeed over sized. Nine hundred feet is the limitation. 52 additional square feet is what's proposed. It's not a very large increase. but it's necessitated by what Mr. Dawson would like to do inside. That is that if he's allowed to store all those things inside. and have a Ii ttle area for a workshop. that's what's needed. and that 52 square feet is probably no bigger than the table where Mr. Martin's seated at. in terms of area. I guess it says something in the Staff Notes about there were verbal concerns about noise. Well. it's not an industrial site. It's a workshop. You go out there on Saturday morning and you pound away on the work bench. He's not in there conducting business. MR. TURNER-What do you do for a living? MR. DAWSON-I work for the Gas Department. Niagara Mohawk. MR. MULLER-He's not going to start his own utility company. MR. TURNER-Not at all. MR. MULLER-If you did look at the property. and I'm sure you're very familiar with where the house is. Most of you dropped by and actually walked the lot. Although the most logical place. as the Staff Notes indicate. would be where that driveway just terminates. it's not going to be. but the other logical spot. actually end up being just in about the center of the back yard. where he proposes it to be. because the lot itself has areas that are low and drop off, not usable. We also have to stay 40 feet off the side lot line. which we intend to do. The other Staff Comment. I guess it's almost a philosophical discussion you have about it. and that is that where you said that one accessory use per property. I guess I take issue with it. I'd like to hear what they have to say about that. I think that when you're talking about a density requirement. there's one accessory use per prescribed density. and the prescribed density is one acre. This happens to be a 2.56 acre lot. So if we can solve the deed restrictions. it seems to me we have. we can represent to you that we have. better than myself. maybe Mr. Dawson should tell you that he has. that we merely wish to be direct about it and say we'd like to have the garage. 952 square feet. for the purpose that was proposed. to store both things that we're talking and that we don't need any other relief. So we're suggesting that that's the minimum relief to grant what is sought here. and maybe Mr. Dawson should (lost word) he and Mr. Valente have. MR. TURNER-Yes. I would like to hear his comments. MR. DAWSON-Well. I talked to Mrs. Valente. she's the boss. They have no problems with the size garage. Their concern is. where I propose putting the garage. is when they were going to build a house next door to me. in the vacant lot. the view that they were - 25 - going to get would be the side of my garage. They're going to keep everything in line. and with me putting my garage where I wanted to put it, they were just saying that we were going to obstruct the view of the person who was supposedly going to buy the property and build a house. MR. MULLER-Mr. Valente still owns Lot One. MR. DAWSON-So I just said. I don't want any hassles with you, and I'll just find some place else to put my garage. MR. TURNER-There's a two car attached garage in the existing house, right? MR. DAWSON-Right. MR. TURNER-So you're going to build a road from the back of the house all the way to the garage? MR. DAWSON-No. I'm not going to build it. Batease build it. I'll probably have Mr. MR. TURNER-Okay. MR. KARPELES-Well. where are you going to go with your driveway? Are you going to just extend that? MR. DAWSON-My driveway right now as you see it, it's going to stay there. It's an asphal t driveway. I'm not going to do anything with that. It's going to stay exactly where it's at. As I'm entering my driveway. I'm going to take an immediate left and go around with. I have like a mowed in area where (lost word) and it's well off all my property lines. MR. KARPELES-So you're not going to build any access? MR. DAWSON-No, no. I'm going to use the same access. MR. TURNER-I guess, the only comment I would have. I would take issue with Council that the Zoning Ordinance doesn't apply to the cri teria that he represented that just because you've got 2.56 acres that you can have a garage. You bought the 2.56 acres, and it says that you can have one accessory garage. 900 square feet. MR. MULLER-I remember when we had one discussion about the Zoning Ordinance and the size densities that were going to be laid out in this Ordinance. and it was Attorney Frank DeSantis who suggested, at a meeting which we had a 10 acre lot in a one acre zone, and it was going to be all the same ownership. the guy could build 10 houses on it. Everybody scurried around all scared about that. and wondering if that was possible. and the answer came out. yes, it's possible, unlikely, and that's the principle that I rely on, because the density says one principal dwelling per one acre. MR. MARTIN-Yes. but the thing is. that the Definitions also go on to sayan accessory use structure has to be accessory to the principal use. So if we have one principal use. one principal use structure, then you should only have one accessory use structure. So you shouldn't have two garages for one house. MS. CIPPERLY-So build a second house. MR. MULLER-Well, you can't do that. So that's probably why we're here. Sue. what were you sugge sting. then, though, that if it ended up being a boat house, that it wasn't a garage? That's kind of torturing it. MS. CIPPERLY-In my attempt to be thorough. I read the definition of boat storage, which I did at least excerpt here, and since it seemed that part of his storage problem was the boat, if there were - 26 - to be a structure that was going to be primarily for boat storage. it seemed like you wouldn't call that a garage. you'd call it private boat storage. So I don't know what this one that you want to situate in the rear of the house. if that's planned to be primarily for the boat. or if you're also going to put cars. there was a differentiation between boats and automobiles. MR. MULLER-We told you honestly. We're going to put a truck in there. a trailer that has two snowmobiles on it and a very large boat that's on a trailer. MR. TURNER-Did you have the boat last year. Mr. Dawson? MR. DAWSON-Yes. I did. MR. TURNER-Where did you store it? MR. MARTIN-He didn't live there last year. MR. DAWSON-Right. MR. TURNER-Okay. That's all I wanted to hear. MR. CARVIN-How many autos do you have? MR. DAWSON-Four. MR. CARVIN-Okay. These are automobiles? MR. DAWSON-Yes. MR. CARVIN-Or are you counting the truck as a? MR. DAWSON-No. automobiles. a truck's an automobile. MR. CARVIN-Okay. How about cars? MR. DAWSON-Four vehicles. MR. CARVIN-Two autos and two trucks? MR. DAWSON-Yes. MR. CARVIN-And a boat on a trailer, MR. MULLER-How long is your boat? MR. DAWSON-Twenty-three foot? The boat does have a cabin cruiser. It's like in between speed boat and a family boat. MR. CARVIN-How many licensed drivers in your house? MR. DAWSON-Two. MR. CARVIN-Just two? MR. DAWSON-My wife and I. MR. THOMAS-Any kids coming up that are going to have a license real soon? MR. DAWSON-They want to drive right now. MR. THOMAS-I see. Another 10 years they'll have a license? MR. DAWSON-It's a scary thought. MR. THOMAS-It sure is. MR. TURNER-Anybody else have any comment or any questions of Mr. - 27 - Muller? MR. MULLER-As an alternative. for your consideration, if this was deserving of denial, which we suggest that it's not, I don't think it solves the problem. Both the developer and the owner would like to keep this under cover. I don't think it dramatically impacts thi s ne ighborhood in any, way. shape or form. All the house s across the street are older. smaller. and have many out buildings. So. it's. in a sense, not inconsistent with what is along the road. It's not going to negatively impact in any way, and I would like to think that now that we have solved the setback aspect, there is minimum relief necessary. MR. CARVIN-Did I read some place, or hear some place that there's a deed restriction on boats? MR. TURNER-They have to be inside. MR. MULLER-Susan and I had that discussion here. and I can't find it in here, it says. you recall in your Staff Notes that there was a limitation. you couldn't store a boat on the lot. MR. TURNER-There is. It's boat storage. MR. MARTIN-I spoke to. Dan Valente came in and saw me a couple of mornings ago, and I talked to Mrs. Valente today. late this afternoon. and I think in one of those conversations. they verbally indicate to me that there was no outside boat storage. but I had not read that in the covenant, but that's what they had indicated to me verbally, I believe. MISS HAUSER-They have this on file. the restrictions. MR. TURNER-Read what pertains to the application. MS. CIPPERLY-The ones that are highlighted are the ones that Mr. Valente highlighted. MISS HAUSER-There's nothing really highlighted that applies to boats. MR. MULLER-Mr. Dawson's telling me the Valente's had two sets of covenants. another set that seems to pertain principally to satellite dishes. MR. DAWSON-Right. MR. MULLER-You have the four page covenants. MR. TURNER-Yes. It looks like that's what we've got. MR. MULLER-I could not find a restriction that said that there was no outdoor storage of boats. Although I did also see in here that there was a prohibition, no trailer. The sentence says no trailer. tent. shack. barn. or other out building. MISS HAUSER-Would a boat be considered a motor vehicle? MR. TURNER-No. MISS HAUSER-I don't see anything for boats anywhere here. MR. MULLER-We do expect to be in full compliance with the requirements by our agreement with Mr. Valente, and I think Jim said to me that Mr. Valente. you touched base with him today? MR. MARTIN-Mrs. Valente did. yes. and I guess Mr. Dawson and the Valente's had spoke some time today, or something like that. and when you had indicated you were going to put it in the back yard. that removed their concerns. because he was then in compliance with - 28 - their covenants. Their main problem with the original one was they couldn't see the need for a six foot setback on an over two acre lot. MR. TURNER-What's the size of the garage on the house? MR. CARVIN-Five hundred and seventy-six square feet. MR. TURNER-And this one is 952, right? MR. CARVIN-Yes. So they're looking for relief of 628 square feet. They're allowed 900, right? MR. TURNER-They're allowed 900, and they've got 576, and right? They've got 1528 square feet of garage space right with this additional building. It's self-created. 952, now, MR. MULLER-Well, you know, if you take the approach that it's a self-created circumstance, that alone is not the criteria to deny a variance. MR. TURNER-No, but it's substantial relief, and that's the criteria, that's one of them. MR. MULLER-Well, it does it make it any better, how believable is if Mr. Dawson told you that he would screen the area in and make it a children's play room on the existing garage? MR. TURNER-I thought there was a comment, somebody raised that to me. Is that what it's going to be? MR. MULLER-That doesn't solve the problem. MR. TURNER-That doesn't solve the problem, but the relief is substantial. If he takes the garage and modifies the garage so it's no longer a garage and the house, I don't have a problem with granting him 52 square feet of relief, but I do have a problem with 600 and some odd square feet. MR. MULLER-So you'd like for him to consider making that habitable space? MR. TURNER-Yes. I want to know if it's going to be, yes or no? MR. DAWSON-Yes. MR. TURNER-When? MR. DAWSON-When I go home tonight. MR. MULLER-He'll sleep there tonight. represent to you that if he is required habitable space, so that I guess the two will be parked in the driveway. Mr. Dawson wishes to to do that, it will be cars that are in there MR. TURNER-That's fine with me. MS. CIPPERLY-How does that work with your deed restrictions? Does it say something about motorized vehicles being under cover? MR. MULLER-We're going to get the maximum of relief that we can on the cover, and I'm certain Mr. Valente's going to have a problem with two parked cars outside. I think Mr. Valente's substantial interests are, I wish he were here to say so, at least on the record, if I say something that he didn't want to say, I'll hear about it for sure, but he would like very much to see those items that are in the back yard of this residence under cover in another building. So would we. MR. TURNER-Really, I don't think the concern is so much the cars as - 29 - '~ it is the boats and the snowmobiles. like you say. MR. MULLER-So we'll do a trade off. We'd like to get those things under cover. MR. TURNER-That's fine. I would feel comfortable. I'd grant them the variance with the condition that he converts the existing garage into living space. MR. CARVIN-Well. it just gives him a 952 square foot garage in the back there. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. CARVIN-Yes. MR. MARTIN-What's the definition of "convert"? MR. TURNER-Living space. into living space. MS. CIPPERLY-Take the garage door off and? MR. TURNER-Whatever he has to do to convert it. MR. CARVIN-Yes. but what's the criteria for a Certificate of Occupancy? MR. TURNER-He could make it another room or whatever. MR. KARPELES-How does that solve his problem? MR. CARVIN-Because then he doesn't have two garages. MR. TURNER-It's minimum relief. MR. KARPELES-Yes. I know. but his vehicles are still outside. right? We're probably making a liar out of an honest person. I think the lesser of the evils is to get those darn things under cover. MR. THOMAS-I think so. too. and leave the garage and house as is. MR. KARPELES-Right. MR. THOMAS-Put those vehicles under cover out back. because we're seeing it right here. More and more people are coming to this Board for second garages and second out buildings for storage of stuff. the one just before Mr. Dawson. MR. TURNER-I know. but the Town. then. should address the issue. either let them have a storage. he's got enough room for a storage shed to put those in. He doesn't need a garage. MR. THOMAS-For what? MR. TURNER-For the boat. MR. THOMAS-For the boat. MR. TURNER-And the truck. whatever. MR. THOMAS-How many square feet? MR. MARTIN-See. the problem between storage shed and garage. I mean. I'd call it a storage shed. but it's the garage door that dictates it being called a garage. If it's a doorway opening big enough to house a, let a vehicle in. an automobile. then you have to call it a garage. because he may not be the only owner of this property. Twenty years from now. somebody may take. if there was some way to call it a storage shed and put an undersized doorway in - 30 - it and still meet his needs for storage, but his boat is only so wide. He needs a garage door to store it. MR. THOMAS-That's right. We're seeing it more and more in this Town, seeing more storage outside. MR. TURNER-Well. I know. but I'm just going to tell you. you know where the 900 square feet. the Valente's got a variance for their garage. Remember. Mike? MR. MULLER-Yes. MR. TURNER-A 900 square foot garage. MR. THOMAS-You just gave a variance down the road from here for a garage. MR. MULLER-And you know we're discussing this 900 square feet because there wasn't a limitation on a garage. and it was Mr. Harris who built a garage about 2.000 square feet, and it went off to court. and the court said to Queensbury. you're wrong. You don't have any limitation on the size of a garage. So in reaction to that, 900 square feet. I can tell you when I personally built my garage I probably would have gone bigger than 900 square feet. but I don't have the stamina to come before this Board. MR. MARTIN-It just strikes me that if you're willing to put up with. or allow the second structure to be built on the site, then you're creating more unsightliness than by. now you've got a second structure. and in addition to that. you're going to have two cars parked outside. MR. KARPELES-Yes. Right. MR. MULLER-We'd like very much to be able to put it all under cover. MR. MARTIN-That's "convert". To me. follow through and existing garage and space. but if you additional vehicles on it. why I was asking what the definition of if you're going to do that. you may as well tell them to remove garage doors off the wall those in. then you truly make it habitable leave those garage doors there. How many are there. Mike? There's a trailer with a boat MR. MULLER-Presently outside. when I inspected the property, there was a truck. There was a boat on a trailer. and there were two snowmobiles on a flat. trailer. MR. MARTIN-And then two cars in addition to that? MR. MULLER-There were two cars in the garage when I inspected it. and then presumably he drove another vehicle to work. MR. MARTIN-Two cars. a pick-up truck. I haven't been to the site. I know the site. but I haven't been there. You have two cars, a pick-up truck. a trailer for a snowmobiles and a trailer for a boat. MR. DAWSON-And a boat, two motorcycles, a tractor. a lawnmower. MR. CARVIN-How many houses are there in this Country Club Manor? Just two? MR. TURNER-Two. I think, Valente's and his house. MR. MULLER-And Mr. Dawson's. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Are there going to be any others? - 31 - MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. MULLER-Mr. Valente has complete control over all those lots. MR. CARVIN-Do you know how many other lots there are there, roughly? MR. DAWSON-Four. MR. MULLER-Four more lots. MR. CARVIN-I'm assuming that you were aware of these restrictive covenants when you bought the house, correct? MR. DAWSON-That's correct. MR. MULLER-How many square feet did Mr. Valente get to build his garage? MR. TURNER-It was around 900 square feet altogether. MR. MULLER-Okay. He has two garages, Mr. Valente. MR. TURNER-Yes, you're right, a two car and a three car. So he got 900, plus the. MR. MULLER-We'd like the same thing, for the same reasons. MR. TURNER-I don't remember his reasons. MR. CARVIN-Restrictive covenants are, according to this, all residences shall be constructed with an attached or detached garage two car garage, which garage shall be built and completed at the same time as the residence. So I mean a broad interpretation of that indicates that if he was to convert the two car garage into a residence, then he could only have another two garage detached. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. MULLER-You understand. Mr. Carvin, that because Mr. Valente's the owner of all of the other lots. he and Mr. Dawson should agree to amend that. I believe that they have. although it's not in writing yet. MR. CARVIN-That's correct. That's why I was wondering how many other houses were affected. and seeing as how there's only the two, the covenants can be, see the problem with restrictive covenants is. my experience has been that if you've got 25 neighbors and they all sign this, and then all of a sudden we change the rules for one. even though we're not supposed to enforce these, it just kind of gets to be a real sticky wicket, but seeing as how it's only the two of you. I guess you can come to an agreement. as far as that's concerned. MR. TURNER-Okay. Any further questions. comments? MISS HAUSER-It seems like there's been a precedent set, allowing two garages in the area. MR. TURNER-Yes. We did it for him. MR. MULLER-You know. we'd like you to approve it so that we'd be allowed the 952 in addition to the existing garage. but we find that the only way we're allowed to get it. the only way you're going to approve. is to require that it be habitable space. We would like very much to see it stay consistent with what's on Mr. Valente's lot, which will accomplish what both Mr. Dawson and Mr. Valente would like to see. It's a good sized lot. MR. CARVIN-Where's the practical difficulty? - 32 - MR. TURNER-I don't know. There isn't any. MR. CARVIN-There isn't any. MR. TURNER-It's a personal decision of his own to have all those vehicles. So. that's not the criteria for an area variance. MR. CARVIN-That's always been my hard time with these large extra garages. is that these are self-created things. I mean. we've turned them down with all these antique autos and whatnot. and I can sympathize with your plight. because I have a similar plight, because I have an old automobile which I have to find storage for every winter. MR. THOMAS-Is that still for sale? MR. CARVIN-It sure is. It's a '67 Camaro convertible. and it still runs. If somebody could show me the practical difficulty. MR. TURNER-Yes. I don't see any. MR. MULLER-The practical difficulty as it relates to this land? MR. CARVIN-Well. as to this situation. MR. MULLER-The practical difficulty has to relate to this lot. and this lot is unique in that it is impacted upon by the declaration and restrictions that says that we don't want these things stored outdoors. MR. TURNER-We don't rule on the covenants. MR. MULLER-I'm not asking you to rule on the covenants. You asked for a fact. it would be creating a difficulty. MR. TURNER-Yes. but he knew that when he bought it. MR. MULLER-But he didn't create it. He accepted it. MR. TURNER-He didn't create it. but he knew it when he bought it. He's the same as. you buy yourself into a position. you're stuck with it. MR. CARVIN-Is the trailer. and I guess you'd have to interpret what trailer is. That's the only thing I believe. I don't have the covenants again. MR. MULLER-That section says no trailer. tent. shack. barn or other out building shall at any time be placed upon the protected area used as a residence. MR. CARVIN-Okay. but where does it say that the automobiles can't be stored outside. that they have to be under cover? It just says that he's allowed a two car garage. attached or detached. It doesn't say that he's limited to two cars. but he is limited to two car garages, and you can't have a clothes line. MR. THOMAS-Yes. you can. but it has to be in the rear yard. MR. MULLER-There's really a great deal of restrictions. MR. CARVIN-I just keep thinking of all those folks. you know. all those antique guys. that we turned them down. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. MULLER-And yet Mr. Valente gets his approval for a lot in the same subdivision, that's an additional three car garage. an additional 900 square feet. for the same reasons. - 33 - - MR. TURNER-Well. there again. that was before the Town ever did anything with garages. There was nothing then that said that they could have that. That's why we granted it to him. but I don't recall why we did it. Mike. MR. MULLER-I know that it's there. The theory that it's one accessory use per lot. property. then, of course. would have to get him some relief for the garage. That is an additional accessory building. Now. indeed he has 4.2 acres. and as I suggested that it's per acre. as Mr. Martin suggested, now it's per property. but if it were per acre. then he has an accessory building without a principal use. either way. it's identical in every way. MISS HAUSER-Is there any way that he could add on to the garage that was there? MR. MULLER-No. It can't be done. MR. TURNER-He'd have to come forward and out. side yard setback. He bought it like that. buying when he bought it. He couldn't meet the He knew what he was MR. MULLER-If you say that, you say that about every piece of property that's preexisting with a new owner coming on. which is. you bought it. you saw it. you know what you got. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. MULLER-And if that. I don't believe that that is a self-created hardship. That is that that scenario. even if it were, even if I go so far as to agree with you that, in and of itself. is not sufficient to deny the area variance. There would have to be some other criteria. but that's your five part test for an area variance. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. MULLER-And I can appreciate your tenacity because of the strict requirements of the Zoning Ordinance. but it's important also to point out that there's absolutely no opposition to the relief requested by the land owner on both sides of Mr. Dawson's property. MR. TURNER-But also the owner of each lot is the same owner. MR. MULLER-That's what I'm saying. yes. that the owner on both sides of the property, and he's not infringing in any way upon an owner behind him. because that's the County of Warren. and he's not infringing on any owner in front of him. because that's also the County of Warren. So we have actually one hundred percent contiguous approval of what he proposes. MISS HAUSER-And he owns how many vacant lots there? MR. MULLER-Mr. Valente? Four. He got a subdivision that has six lots in it. MISS HAUSER-I'm sure he'd be here to complain if he thought that it would detract from him selling those other lots. MR. MULLER-He actually spoke to Jim and said that he was in support of this. He wants to see them under cover. He thinks that it will enhance the sale of Lot Number One. MR. TURNER-Okay. questions? Okay. Has anybody got any comments. any further I'll open the public hearing. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED NO COMMENT - 34 - - PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED MR. TURNER-Any further discussion? MR. CARVIN-Well, my comments are just in support, whether the requested area variance is substantial, and I think if we go the 626 square feet, I think that's very substantial, and whether the alleged difficulty was self-created, and I feel very strongly that these types of garages are self-created. So I mean, I've got two out of the five, and it's not going to be a detriment to the community. I agree with you. I mean, it's not going to make the neighborhood look run down, and probably would be okay, but it's those two right there that I have a hard time with. MR. MULLER-But let me ask you this, perhaps logically approach that negative. I think we're in a two step process here, which is you have to give us permission to put an additional accessory building in, and if you do that, then the additional square footage that we're asking for is 52 square feet. MR. TURNER-You're rationale is what? That it's still an accessory building because he's got more than an acre? MR. MULLER-No. I'll abandon that. I'm proposing to you that we have to go through a two step analysis here if the variance can be approved, and that is that you have to say that the additional accessory building is permitted. You have to say that. If indeed you do, then if Mr. Dawson were not even here asking for the 52 square feet, he's all set. He can pick up his building permit, and he's got to keep it only 900 square feet. He's not asking for a substantial amount of relief. He's asking for no relief. Instead he's here tonight and he's asking for 952. That's 52 square feet of relief. MR. CARVIN-Six hundred and twenty eight square feet, it's still a garage. MR. TURNER-A garage is a garage, whether it's in the house or out in the field. MR. MULLER-Could you grant him an additional accessory building? If the answer is yes, we'll fold up our tent and go home. MR. CARVIN-For what purpose? MR. MULLER-For what we propose to you. MR. CARVIN-For a garage? MR. MULLER-Yes. MR. CARVIN-Only if it was the difference between the 576 and 900. I mean, that's what he would be allowed. MR. MULLER-Okay. We have to reach the first question, are you going to allow them to build an additional garage? Can we agree on that? MR. CARVIN-Well, I guess the question I'm going to ask, how much garage does he have right now? MR. MULLER-Five seventy-six. MR. CARVIN-And how much is he allowed? MR. MULLER-If you say that he is allowed to build another garage, the answer's 900. Okay, if the answer's not, take the 900 and subtract 576. MR. CARVIN-That's what we're saying the answer is. - 35 - .- MR. MULLER-I know that. I understand that. I disagree. MR. CARVIN-So would he be allowed an accessory building for a garage. that would be the difference between the 576 and the 900. That would be the accessory building. MR. MULLER-I understand that. we're making that up this evening. That is that's not what the Zoning Ordinance says. MR. CARVIN-But that's not what he wants. MR. MULLER-Right. MR. CARVIN-He wants an additional. whatever it is. six hundred and some odd square feet. MR. THOMAS-Six hundred and twenty-eight. MR. CARVIN-Over and above the 900 square feet. MR. MULLER-That's right. If you are going to put this altogether in one total accumulated square feet of garage. MR. CARVIN-And when it trips over that number. that's where I have a hard problem. because I think that that's where it. MR. MULLER-Okay. but I think. what's the Zoning Ordinance say? Maximum size of ª garage? Does it say that the total accessory structures and garages? I don't think so. It says maximum size of the garage is going to be 900 square feet. MR. CARVIN-Right. He could have an attached garage for 900 square feet in his house with no problem. MR. MULLER-That's correct. MR. CARVIN-Okay, and I don't want to put words. but my interpretation is that if he is building an additional garage. well. I don't even know if he would be allowed a second garage. I guess it still comes right down. MR. MULLER-That's exactly right. additional garage. He would not be allowed an MR. MARTIN-I think what he. say you have the existing garage the way it is. It's 576. right? And then say he only wanted a one stall garage he was coming in for. in addition to that. detached from his house. The only variance he would be needing is a variance for a second garage. because the second garage is within the 900 foot limitation per structure. MR. CARVIN-Or if he was expanding his garage. the attached garage. to 900 square feet. MR. MARTIN-So. in that instance. you wouldn't be looking at a cumulati ve square footage of garage. You'd be looking at the allowability of a second accessory structure. MR. MULLER-I agree with what. that's what I'm trying to express to you. apparently I don't have the right words. but I agree with what Mr. Martin's saying. I'm not expanding the existing garage. and if I were. it would be fair to. give me a cumulative square foot. I'm asking for relief that says. may I have an additional accessory building. If the answer is no. we'll fold up our tent and go home. If the answer's yes. and I fold up my tent and go home. I can pick up a building permit for a 900 square foot garage. without asking for any relief. I show that to you to point out the dramatic aspect of. it's 52 square feet. MR. TURNER- I don't agree with you. because the garage private - 36 - parking says. an accessory building or structure attached or detached. used primarily to shelter no more than three automobiles. provided that such garage may be used to shelter only one commercial vehicle. but in no event shall such commercial vehicle exceed one and one half tons capacity. MR. MULLER-Okay. We have to get to the limitation on area. MR. TURNER-Nine hundred square feet. MR. MULLER-Nine hundred square feet. that's right. the garage. MR. MARTIN-It does say. it says. and such garage shall not exceed 900 square feet. It says garage. singular. MR. MULLER-I understand what you're doing. and it makes mathematical sense. There's absolutely no doubt about it. but when you read the Ordinance. the Ordinance is strictly construed. okay. that's the prerogative and the right of the owner. and you're not to expand it by some innuendo or by some implication. that is that. case law that says it. Basically what you're being asked to do is. an additional building for all the reasons that we've proposed here this evening. If you say yes. and that's all you ever said. after I thank you. I say to Mr. Dawson. go pick up your building permit. and you can have one up to 900 square feet. MR. MARTIN-Yes. If this were to come to me as Zoning Administrator. I would take that exact interpretation, that same scenario just cited you. If it was a one stall detached garage. in addition to what he has there existing. I would say the variance needed is for a second accessory structure. The second accessory structure. meets the 900 square foot limitation. just like it's held to. it would have to meet its own individual setback standards. because it's a separate structure. MR. TURNER-All right. Wait a minute now. Single Residential zone says. accessory use. private garage. one. Family One. MR. MULLER-Yes. I agree. MR. CARVIN-But does he have one now? MR. TURNER-He has one. MR. MULLER-He's asking for relief from that requirement. MR. MARTIN-He's asking for a second garage. MR. TURNER-I know. MR. MULLER-I'm not convinced that we're discussing the same thing. MR. TURNER-Yes. we are. but the only difference between what I'm saying to you is that I'm saying I'm including the 576 square feet as part of the 900 square feet. All right. MR. MULLER-You are. Right. and I'm saying that that's not right. That's not what the Zoning Ordinance requires of Mr. Dawson. and it's not fair. It's mathematically correct. okay. but we're not talking math. We're talking Zoning Ordinance. MR. TURNER-What do we do with the math. throw it out the window? MR. MULLER-Well. the Zoning Ordinance says that that accessory structure has a limitation. If you say yes. Mr. Dawson can have his accessory structure. but we're going to limit you to up to a total of 900 square feet. nowhere in the Ordinance does it say that all total garages. out buildings. accessory structures. cannot exceed a maximum of 900 square feet. It doesn't say that. because if it did. we'd be asking for that relief. too. - 37 - MR. CARVIN-On the other hand, he could come back and have 14 accessory garages if he got the variances. MR. MULLER-That's correct. MR. CARVIN-All of them 900 square feet. MR. MULLER-Yes. MR. TURNER-And that's what I'm saying the Ordinance doesn't say. That's not the spirit of the Ordinance either. MR. MULLER-I think the spirit of the Ordinance is basically fairness, and the fairness of this is that if you hold Mr. Dawson to a test different than Mr. Valente, different than what is actuall y spec i fied in the Ordinance, then it's not fair, but in fairness, we're trying to be direct about this and not, you know, we don't want to make that habitable space, and it sounds 1 ike you'd like it to be habitable space, which puts him in a difficult position. He really wants to put everyone of those things under cover, and so does Mr. Valente. He wants to see them all under cover. If we're honest and straightforward about that, and then you start saying, well, lets see, the maximum total garage space you are entitled to on a residential lot in this zone is 900 square feet. I heard you say it, but that's not true. MR. TURNER-That's what ~ say. MR. MULLER-Well, it says, ª garage shall not exceed 900 square feet. MR. TURNER-It says, permitted accessory, private garage, period. It doesn't say anything about a second garage, third garage, fourth garage. MR. MULLER-It does not. You're right. MR. TURNER-That's what I'm looking at. MR. MULLER-Okay, and we're asking for that relief. for permission to put a second garage there. We're asking MR. TURNER-Yes. No, not a second garage. You're addi tion to what he already has. That's where you're with the 628 square feet of relief. asking in coming up MR. CARVIN-His accessory structure could be 324 square feet. MR. TURNER-I mean, just because he's got a big lot doesn't preempt him from anybody else. If somebody else had a smaller lot, he could put a 900 square foot garage on there. He had to come for setbacks because he couldn't make them, on most cases. Just because he's got a big lot, and he needs a place to put his boat and three or four cars and all the other stuff that he's got. I don't think that's the spirit of the Ordinance. I think the spirit of the Ordinance is that you can have a private garage up to 900 square feet, and that's it, one lot, on the one lot. MR. MULLER-And you would then say this Board would never ever grant a variance from that limitation? MR. TURNER-I wouldn't. I think that's what it says. MR. MULLER-I think that if the grounds are there, that a variance should be granted from that limitation. MR. TURNER-We've tossed it, Jim and I have tossed it back and forth, the same thing. It says private garage, it means one. MR. MARTIN-Yes, and I agree with that, and so that's why he's here, - 38 - because he needs, he's asking for a second garage. MR. TURNER-He's asking for a second garage. He's asking over the 900 square feet. MR. MARTIN-He needs relief to have a second garage. Now. if that relief is given, then in terms of that second garage, he is allowed up to 900 square feet for that second garage. MR. TURNER-No. MR. CARVIN-You have to take the square footage of the existing garage into consideration. MR. MARTIN-Where does it say to do that? MR. MULLER-Mr. Carvin, I understand that mathematically, I really do. I don't mean to go around this a million times, but it is a fair question. That is, where does the Ordinance say to do that? Because that's the standard you're now ho lding Mr. Dawson to. Where is it? MR. MARTIN-It doesn't even says "garages" in the definition or in the use schedule. It just says a garage. MR. MULLER-What you do here is you're expanding the Ordinance by implication, and we're asking you not to do that, and there's loads of case law that says don't do that. That is strictly construe your Ordinance. MR. TURNER-I don't buy it. MR. CARVIN-I don't either. MR. TURNER-Any comment. Chris? MR. THOMAS-No. The only thing say, lets take a vote. MR. TURNER-Linda? MISS HAUSER-I don't know. It's just, in accessory use, it does say you can have boat storage. MR. TURNER-Right. That doesn't mean it has to be inside, although it says in the covenants it has to be inside. MR. KARPELES-I think we're getting so bogged down in details that we're losing sight of what zoning is supposed to do. Zoning is supposed to improve the area, and by God I can't see how storing material like that outside is an improvement over storing it inside. This guy's got two and a half acres. He ought to be able to store his own equipment on his property. MR. TURNER-That's fine, but if a guy comes, you're going to give him a garage for 15 cars? fortunate enough to buy 15 cars? he's got 15 cars. Just because he's MR. KARPELES-I think it would depend upon how big a piece of property he had. MR. TURNER-I don't think the size has anything to do with it. MR. CARVIN-You can't say that, because just because a guy's got an a acre, another guy's got 10 acres. What makes the guy with the 10 acres any better than the guy with the one acre if he's got the 15 cars. They're still his cars. MR. KARPELES-He's paying a hell of a lot more taxes. MR. TURNER-It's the use of the land that we have to identify with. - 39 - Okay. No further discussion? Motion's in order. Lets move it. We could talk about it all night and not agree. Does anybody want to make it? MR. CARVIN-If I was to move it, it would be to deny, unless you want to make it to approve, Bob. MR. KARPELES-I think whoever makes the motion's going to be the loser. MR. TURNER-Yes, you're right. Somebody's going to be the loser. MISS HAUSER-I agree with Ted, but I'm inclined to decide with Bob. I agree a little bit more. MR. TURNER-I just think you're setting an awful precedent. MR. THOMAS-Yes, but I think we're going to see more and more of these. MR. TURNER-That's fine, but what the Town's got to do is they've got to is they've got to do something different with this Section of the Ordinance, and identify it a little better, and I don't think we should set a precedent by letting this one go by the Boards just because there's something wrong with it. MR. THOMAS-Well, you know they're going to do something with it, like they did with the fences. MR. TURNER-I don't know that they are. They haven't done anything wi th it. We've got a new Board coming on. I don't know where they're going. MR. THOMAS-Well, I think as the Town Board sees more and more of these start to come in, they know they're going to have to start doing something with them. I mean, all three variance s tonight have been for garages. MR. TURNER-Yes, but the others were for setbacks. MR. KARPELES-I think we already set precedents. Didn't we give one up in Cleverdale, to a guy that had a second garage, for exactly the same thing, for boat storage? MR. TURNER-No. That was Finnecy. That was a two car garage. MR. CARVIN-And I was against that because it was too large for that piece of property. That was side yard setback, too. MR. TURNER-Yes, that was setback. MS. CIPPERLY-You recently had one for Marshall, which was an attached garage, on Country Club Road. MR. TURNER-Yes, but that was 100 square feet over, less than that. This is 628 square feet. MR. CARVIN-We had those ones off Corinth Road. We've had all those guys coming in trying to build those accessory garages. MR. THOMAS-Yes, but those were for businesses, the ones down there on the Corinth Road. MR. CARVIN-Well, they were for antique cars. businesses. No different than what this gentleman happened to have three or four extra automobiles. They weren't is, they just MR. THOMAS-Well, he's got to do something with them. MR. TURNER-What did you do with the boat last year? Did you store - 40 - -.-/ it some place? MR. DAWSON-I kept it at my mom and dad's house. It's under cover. MR. TURNER-A little A-Frame over it? MR. DAWSON-I could do the same at my house. but I mean. who wants to buy a lot with a boat like that. MR. TURNER-Well. the guy that moves in next to you. he might have a boat. too. on either side of you. all down the street. There's boats allover the place. MR. DAWSON-What Dan's objective is. is to make the property that's all around something nice to look at. and if he can't do that, then the people that are buying these lots aren't going to want to buy them. MR. TURNER-Well. they haven't bought them in quite a while. I can tell you that. MR. DAWSON-Right now. he's got one on the hook. MR. TURNER-That's been a dead piece of property for five or six years or more. seven years. eight years. MR. THOMAS-So's all of Queensbury. MR. TURNER-Allover the place. going to do it? It's all dead. Okay. Are you MR. THOMAS-This is going to take me about a half an hour. MOTION TO APPROVE AREA VARIANCE NO. 110-1993 ROBERT S. DAWSON. Introduced by Chris Thomas who moved for its adoption. seconded by Robert Karpeles: That the Board allow Mr. Dawson to build the accessory structure, as requested. in the rear of the property so that the side yard and rear yard setbacks are met. The practical difficulty lies in the fact that Mr. Dawson has recreational vehicles that cannot fit into the existing garage. For aesthetic purposes. the vehicles should be kept out of sight. This is the minimum variance necessary due to the fact that the applicant has no other option than to put up the building for storage. There is no detriment to the neighborhood and there is no neighborhood opposition. and there is no effects on public services or facilities. Duly adopted this 15th day of September. 1993. by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Karpeles. Miss Hauser. Mr. Thomas NOES: Mr. Carvin. Mr. Turner ABSENT: Mrs. Eggleston MR. TURNER-It's denied. No majority. 3 to 2, 7 member Board. You've got to have four votes. MR. MARTIN-I would strongly suggest that you make a motion for denial. MOTIOH TO DEHY AREA VARIANCE NO. 110-1993 ROBERT S. DAWSON. Introduced by Fred Carvin who moved for its adoption, seconded by Theodore Turner: The applicant is proposing relief of 628 square feet. from Section 179-7. which is the definition for a garage, in that the applicant's request appears to be substantial and the applicant has - 41 - not shown that the alleged difficulty was not self-created. Duly adopted this 15th day of December. 1993. by the following vote: MR. TURNER-Mr. Martin, what's the purpose of this motion? There was a motion to approve. it got voted down. There's no rationale for this motion. MR. MARTIN-Yes. but you have to have a reason for denial. MR. TURNER-No. We had a motion to approve. It was denied. MR. MARTIN-I'm fairly certain. MR. TURNER-No. I don't agree with you. MR. CARVIN-So now what happens if we get a three to two vote the other way? That means that the approval. that the motion is approved? MR. MARTIN-No. The reverse is not true then either. I just don't. look at what they cited you in the Carte letter from the APA. that same line of thinking. You heard it there in that letter. that a motion to disapprove that wasn't approved does not automatically mean acceptance. and I can't remember what the reasons were in that letter. but I mean. Mr. Muller's an attorney. I don't have Paul here. So, is that not correct? MR. MULLER-Right. MS. CIPPERLY-I think in the Di Palma case. also. Mr. mentioned that you had to have a motion to deny. If your approve wasn't passed. then you have to also do a second deny. and state the reasons. O'Connor motion to motion to MR. CARVIN-I just don't ever remember doing that. MR. MARTIN-I think you open yourself up for a very easy reversal of your decision. if he was to take this to an Article 78 proceeding. He'd win almost by default. Am I not correct? MR. MULLER-Right. MR. KARPELES-Because the minority is winning. MR. MULLER-You have to take some action on the application. and you didn't in the last one. You just didn't have a motion to approve. While you're thinking about your motion. you could also condition your approval on. in making the existing garage into habitable space. which is not our preference. MR. CARVIN-I'm not sure I know where this is going. Ted. MR. TURNER-Wait a minute. He just agreed to take the garage out of the house and do away with. make it habitable space. So that puts the other garage in the back. and he can store the vehicles there. MR. CARVIN-Okay, but then we would need a new motion. MR. TURNER-A ne~ motion. You'd have to withdraw your motion there, and make a new motion. MR. CARVIN-That's conditioned upon the living space. MR. TURNER-That is a condition of the approval. that he makes the existing garage habitable. and he has the use of the proposed new garage in the back, which is 900. MR. CARVIN-Okay. When we say inhabitable. to what criteria? - 42 - MR. TURNER-Livable space. MR. MULLER-We'll follow the instructions of Mr. Martin's office as to what makes it habitable. If you dispute that, we'll be 'back. I can assure you that. MR. TURNER-Jim. what's your thoughts on that? MR. MARTIN-I just get concerned about the presence of the garage that's left. the garage door is left in what is supposed to be habitable space. It's strictly used for that. I just am concerned that the presence of those garage doors. maybe not with this applicant. He may be very honest. and the owner of the property at this time. but who's to say a future owner. you know. this is going to get lost in time. I mean. he knows about the limitations of his variance. What's going to happen with somebody else who owns this property thinks they got a four car garage. or four garage bays available to them. MR. TURNER-All right. Then a condition of the variance should be that he removes the existing garage door. put up a petition wall. and make the living area. or the garage living area. habitable area. MR. MARTIN-If he wants to come up with an undersized door. like a four foot door or something that won't accept a car. and he can get his tractors in and out. and his lawn equipment. MR. MULLER-Mr. Dawson says he will take that garage door out in the spring. MR. MARTIN-Yes. is I interpret automobiles. I'm not against. the only thing that concerns me a garage as being a place for the storage of MR. TURNER-That's right. That's exactly what it says. MR. MARTIN-If he wants to store. if he can get snowmobiles through a four foot door. or lawn tractors. lawn mowers. that's different. MR. CARVIN-Yes. but then it becomes a shed. and not a habitable area. MR. MARTIN-Well. it's just not a garage. I wouldn't define that as a garage. He's permitted a storage shed. It's the garages that are limited by the 900 square feet. MR. TURNER-What's the lesser of the two evils? MR. MARTIN-The other thing. he has the option of when he builds the new structure. to build it without a garage door. the existing garage. and just make the new structure a shed. MR. TURNER-Yes. He's got that option. MR. MARTIN-With no garage doors on it. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. MARTIN-When I see garage doors in a second structure like that. I interpret that to be a garage. MR. MULLER-Yes. We want it to be a garage. quibble about doors. We don't want to MR. MARTIN-You still have to grant the relief on the 52 square feet. MR. TURNER-That's right. I don't have any problem with that. I, said that all along. That's minimum relief. - 43 - MR. CARVIN-So all we're looking for is just relief from 179-7. right? MR. TURNER-Yes. .He needs 52 square feet of condition that he converts the existing garage living space by removing existing garage door. relief. and the into habitable MR. CARVIN-Mr. Chairman. I would withdraw my previous motion to deny, but I would move that we grant Area Variance 110-1993. MOTION TO APPROVE AREA VARIANCE NO. 110-1993 ROBERT S. DAWSON, Introduced by Fred Carvin who moved for its adoption. seconded by Theodore Turner: Grant relief of 52 square feet from Section 179-7. Definition of a Garage. by allowing the construction of a detached garage of 952 square feet. This is conditioned upon the conversion of the applicant's existing garage to inhabitable space and non use as a garage. and the written exception by Mr. Daniel Valente. Valente Builders. Inc. . of the deed restrictions concerning the establishment of detached garages when a detached garage is an outside storage. The practical difficulty is due to the number of vehicles currently owned by the applicant and the deed restrictions imposed would make this the minimum relief necessary. This would be the minimum relief necessary to eliminate the practical difficul ty. There does not appear to be any effect on the neighborhood or community. and there does not appear to be any effect on public services or facilities. Duly adopted this 15th day of December. 1993. by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Karpeles. Mr. Carvin. Miss Hauser. Mr. Thomas. Mr. Turner NOES: NONE ABSENT: Mrs. Eggleston AREA VARIANCE NO. 108-1993 TYPE I LC-42A WR-1A CEA HARRIS BAY YACHT CLUB OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE ROUTE 9L. ON LAKE GEORGE APPLICANT PROPOSES TO INSTALL A NEW, CONCRETE, ABOVE GRADE FUEL STORAGE TANK TO REPLACE EXISTING UNDERGROUND FUEL TANKS. PROPOSED STORAGE TAHK WOULD BE LOCATED SIX (6) FEET FROM THE WETLAND BOUNDARY AND SHORELINE BOUNDARY. SECTION 179-60B(1)(c) REQUIRES A SHORELINE SETBACK OF ONE HUHDRED (100) FEET IN A LAND COHSERVATION ZONE¡ APPLICANT IS SEEKIHG RELIEF OF NINETY-FOUR (94) FEET. (DEPT. OF ENV. COHSERVATION) (ADIRONDACK PARK AGENCY) (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) 12/8/93 TAX MAP NO. 10-1-1.1 LOT SIZE: 18.16 ACRES SECTION 179-60B(1)(c) SEQRA TO PLANNING BOARD: DECEMBER 21, 1993 NOTE: THE ABOVE APPLICANT NEEDS A USE VARIANCE AND A SIGN VARIANCE. MR. TURNER-This requires SEQRA Review. So I would make a motion. MOTION TO SEHD AREA VARIANCE NO. 108-1993 HARRIS BAY YACHT CLUB TO THE PLANNING BOARD FOR SEORA REVIEW. Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved for its adoption. seconded by Fred Carvin: Duly adopted this 15th day of December. 1993. by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Carvin. Miss Hauser. Mr. Thomas. Mr. Karpeles. Mr. Turner NOES: NONE ABSENT: Mrs. Eggleston - 44 - MR. TURNER-Okay. I got a letter from the Adirondack Park Agency in reference to the Carte variance. and I'll read it. I'm going to read it in abbreviated form. "Based upon the record and pursuant to Executive Law S808(3). the Agency is constrained to reverse the granting of the variance by the Zoning Board of Appeals. This reversal is based upon the Board's failure to make the necessary findings under S179-88 of the Town of Queensbury Zoning Ordinance. or under the relevant provisions of the Town Law. which has since been amended and controls pursuant to Greqory v. Town of Cambria. 69 NY2d 655 (1986). More specifically: 1. The October 20 Record of Resolution fails to affirmatively state the grounds for the decision. As you know. the Board's original September 15. 1993 approval was withdrawn on October 20, at which time a motion to deny the variance was defeated. However. there was no subsequent motion to approve. nor does the record contain an affirmative statement setting forth the grounds for approval. In short. the record doesn't appear to contain specific findings. or even statements by the Board which could be considered their equivalent. showing that the various factors were considered and that the Board itself reached conclusions regarding them. as required by law. 2. The record does not show that the Board made the findings required by the Queensbury Zoning Ordinance. Nor does the record provide a basis for all the required findings. For example. there was no findings as to whether. and how. granting the variance would or would not be detrimental to the neighborhood. The basis for "practical difficulties" was personal. and did not relate to the land itself. To the extent that the practical difficulty claimed in this case could be considered. there does not appear to have been consideration of other alternatives. such as creation of a larger lot which did not consume all the road frontage. which would minimize the extent of the variance required. or eliminate the need for it entirely. Nor is the fact that the property may be rendered less valuable (but still usable and having value) without the variance constitute grounds for granting it. Finally. to the extent that financing was even relevant. we note that his investigation of alternative financing arrangements was not fully pursued. as requested by the Board (see pp. 9 and 10. October meeting minutes). We note that Mr. Carte did not own the property when the application was considered. and presumably still does not. 3. Subsequent to the enactment of the Town's Ordinance. the Town Law was amended to provide specific standards for the granting of area variances. Pursuant to the logic of Greqory. cited above. it appears that a town must now apply the standards set forth in the town law. notwithstanding the provisions of the town's ordinance. Pursuant to the current Town Law. the Board must consider the following factors in evaluating the benefit to the applicant if the variance is granted. as weighed against the detriment to the health. safety and welfare of the neighborhood or community by such grant. (1) whether an undesirable change will be produced in the character of the neighborhood or a detriment to nearby properties will be created by the granting of the area variance. (2) whether the benefit sought by the applicant can be achieved by some method. feasible for the applicant to pursue, other than an area variance. (3) whether the requested area variance is substantial. (4) whether the proposed variance will have an adverse effect or impact upon the physical or environmental conditions in the neighborhood or district. and (5) whether the alleged difficulty was self- created, which consideration shall be relevant to the decision of the board of appeals, but shall not necessarily preclude the granting of the area variance. There is no question that the area variance is substantial. Whether the effects identified in factors (1) and (4) would occur was left unanswered, although the record shows that the neighborhood contains a mixture of lots. some of which are substandard in size, and that neighbors objected to the variance. The record shows that Mr. Carte did not own the property at the time of the application, and that may still be the case. Since any difficulty will not arise except upon his purchase of the property and construction of a second house upon it (Oct.. p.9), any hardship would appear to be self-created. Further, the claims of hardship, the basis of which was limited to financing, are - 45 - unsubstantiated. and alternatives including alternative financing and/or lot configurations do not appear to have been considered. In fact, the record shows that the Board asked Mr. Carte to investigate other banks, and he appears not to have done so completely (Oct., p.10). As noted above, the record does not contain specific findings by the Board as to the factors which must be considered either under the Town ordinance or the Town Law. Nor can they be inferred from the existing record. Should the Town decide to entertain this matter again. or in any case where a substandard lot is being approved by variance, we respectfully suggest that it limit development on the rest of the parcel. In this case, the entire property should be limited to a total of three buildings (including any existing buildings). as would be the result had the Town's minimum lot size been applied to the original parcel. Typically, any such restriction should be ensured by requiring the execution of deed covenants which will also serve the purpose of providing notice to any subsequent purchaser. For the reasons set forth above, the Agency reluctantly concludes that it must reverse Area Variance No. 82-1993 (Kelly Carte)" MR. THOMAS-Who signed that? MR. TURNER-Barbara Rottier. They're tough on them. You've got to have all your ducks in a row with them. MR. THOMAS-How close are they to the APA border? MR. TURNER-They're in it. Well, they're close. I knew he wouldn't get it. I knew they'd throw it out. It can't be a personal reason. It has to meet the criteria for a variance. Are we going to do minutes? MR. CARVIN-Ted, before we do the minutes, I'd like to try to get some clarification on this, because I think this is germane to what's going to happen to this Board. In other words, if, for an example. we just had a motion to approve that was basically denied because we had no majority, but I still fail to see why we have to put a denial, because it would just be the other way I'm sure. MR. TURNER-Yes. it would have just been a reverse vote. MR. MARTIN-Yes. but that's what they're trying to tell you, that you have to take some action. Having not done one way does not automatically mean the other is true. MR. CARVIN-But what would we do in a case like that? Lets just say that we had the vote. and the vote came out to deny. Does that mean that it's approved? MR. MARTIN-You'd have to keep on hammering it out. and come to a decision. one way or the other, like you did tonight with this one. Finally, approval with conditions seemed satisfactory to everybody. and that was the ultimate solution. MR. CARVIN-Okay. but in the past. we've had other situations where these. MR. MARTIN-I don't think. in most cases. it probably won't hurt you. but you get a sharp attorney in here. like a Muller or an O'Connor, O'Connor said the same thing to you as he was walking out after the Di Palma thing. He said. are you sure you don't want to make a motion to deny. because he'd go to court and win in two seconds. for a few hundred dollars and a court fee. MS. CIPPERLY-Apparently. if you do a motion to approve and it doesn't pass, then you have to do a motion to deny. MR. TURNER-Then you're home safe. That's what you're saying. You're saying if we have a motion to approve. and it doesn't pass. then we've got to have a motion to deny? - 46 - --- MR. MARTIN-Yes. MR. TURNER-And if we deny a motion, if we deny a variance, then we've got to have a motion to approve. or what? What are you saying? MR. MARTIN-You have to have a majority vote one way or the other. What I think you should do. Ted. is get an opinion from Paul on this. I can only speak to it, based on my observations. Paul would know. You should have a firm opinion on this from the Town Attorney. MR. CARVIN-Well. I think we should get to the bottom of this. because if we're going to be. MR. MARTIN-Or I can get it for you. I can have Paul write you an opinion letter on it, but I can see what they're saying. It's a legal loop hole for somebody to jump through if. you know. if you have a motion to deny and it doesn't make it. MR. CARVIN-Well. we have a short Board. all right. We have a seven member Board. We have only six members, and one of them is in Florida. So now we're down to five. MR. TURNER-We'll have six next week. MR. CARVIN-Okay. but suppose one of us is out sick. I mean. this Board has turned over. or seems to have a great deal of turn over. So. I mean. very rarely is it up to full power. and I just. you know. I mean. if we have five members here. we've got to always get four of them to agree? MR. MARTIN-Yes. MR. TURNER-You have to have a majority vote. MR. CARVIN-One way or another. even though we could be hung up here for days? MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. KARPELES-Well. I think what they're really saying is a variance can't carry, because you denied it. MR. MARTIN-Right. or it can't be denied because you failed to carry it. MR. KARPELES-Yes. and because you don't give any of the reasons then, right? You don't answer the questions that are. MR. MARTIN-You have to remember. you're a judicial Board. MR. TURNER-I know. but if you make a motion to deny a variance. and you state the reasons to deny it. why isn't that substantial enough. and the vote comes out for a denial. MR. MARTIN-Because a majority didn't carry it, Ted. MR. TURNER-No. no. is that not? If it comes out. the majority carries it. why MR. MARTIN-Then that's fine. If you make a motion to deny it, and you get four votes for it. you're set. but I'm saying. when you get these three. two situations. MR. KARPELES-Wasn't that four votes? MR. MARTIN-No, that was three. two. MR. KARPELES-Not tonight. - 47 - -- MR. MARTIN-Yes. MR. TURNER-It's only when you get less than a majority vote. MR. MARTIN-Right. MS. CIPPERLY-Well. the thing with Di Palma's. that you did, somebody did a motion. I think. to approve, which did not pass. Then you needed to do a second motion to say. if you're going to disapprove it. state your reasons, otherwise you can do an Article 78 on you because you hadn't stated any reasons for denying it. MR. MARTIN-If you get a motion to approve. and it gets defeated two to four. or one to four. MR. CARVIN-With that one. there was a definite four votes against it. MR. MARTIN-Well. then what should have happened. then it would have been very easy to go back with a motion to deny. You likely would have gotten four votes for denial. and then you would have had a sound basis. MR. CARVIN-Okay. I think. and we talked about this last week. we have to check that. because all that happened was that the same motion was re-introduced. MR. TURNER-Just re-introduced. MR. MARTIN-When O'Connor came back. and you ultimately approved it. MR. CARVIN-Yes. the same motion. There was no change. There was no. MR. MARTIN-Well, somebody changed their vote. long as you have four votes for it. That's fine. As MR. CARVIN-I don't think so. MR. MARTIN-I think you had four votes. MR. CARVIN-I mean. the exact same motion had been denied. and then re-introduced and approved. and I don't think you can have the same motion introduced twice. MR. MARTIN-I think we can. MR. KARPELES-Well. this Kelly Carte thing. there were four people for it. and one person against it. two people absent. MS. CIPPERLY-And it was a negative motion. MR. CARVIN-It was a negative motion. three to two. No, the Kelly Carte was a MR. MARTIN-You might have the previous meeting where. MR. KARPELES-That's the wrong week. That's the week that we. MR. CARVIN-No. Kelly Carte was three to two. MR. MARTIN-October 20th it was a motion to deny and it wasn't approved. MR. CARVIN-But the reason for the denial was all pointed out in the thing. MR. MARTIN-That's true in any case. If you don't reach a majority vote. out of a four vote action. one way or the other. you just simply can't leave it hanging like that. You can. but somebody - 48 - - '~ ---"~ could very easily get around that. MR. CARVIN-Well. I guess my question really boils down to. lets just say that nobody moved on this. MR. TURNER-I know what he's saying. The Board's got to take an action on the application. They've got to approve it or deny it. and they've got to state the reason why. MR. MARTIN-Or approve it with conditions. MR. TURNER-Right. with conditions. It's got to be done with a majority. You can't have a hung jury. MR. MARTIN-It has to be a majority action. MR. TURNER-Right. You can't have a hung jury. You've got to act on it. MR. MARTIN-But I would still get an opinion from Paul on this. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. MARTIN-I mean. that's what he's there for. It wouldn't take him long to do it. and we can request that he maybe get it to you in writing. MR. TURNER-Well. I know. State Law says that you have to have a majority vote. I know that. You have to have a majority. MR. MARTIN-I think that's why they give you the. the out is. in the Law. I believe. is that you can approve with conditions. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. MARTIN-That's meant to be the compromise. like you did tonight with the garage. MS. CIPPERLY-Okay. and if we get that. I have a draft. and Linda gave me some more input on a standard resolution format. at least. where you could sort of fill in the blanks as you go along. at least an outline. MR. KARPELES-It's more than that. because this one there were four noes. Mr. Karpe1es. Miss Hauser. Mr. Thomas. and Mr. Philo. The Ayes were Carvin. and Eggleston. and Turner. MR. CARVIN-This was a motion to deny. okay. but the four. and that's what they came back. MR. KARPELES-So if we had just come around and changed that around the other way. it would have been approved. MR. CARVIN-It should have been approved. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. MARTIN-Right. Then you would have taken an action. and in the context of that motion. you would have stated the reasons for your action. MR. KARPELES-Right. MR. CARVIN-In other words. that he did have a self-created. or it wasn't self-created. MR. MARTIN-But by leaving it like that. you couldn't assume that the reverse was true. because you had no formal action. When you have four like that. it should be easy to turn it around. - 49 - MR. CARVIN-Well. if you can follow-up on that. MR. MARTIN-Yes. We'll get an opinion letter from Paul. CORRECTION OF MINUTES: August 25th. 1993: Page 4, second Mr. Turner down from the toP. well. he came for a site plan back in '88. and it's referred as a Class B Farm. sib Class C Farm; Page 6, middle of the page, Mr. Turner says. look it, look at it. just add "at"; Page 7, where Mr. Ryan is talking, middle of the page. the part where it says. I can't get my car to "fit" in the garage; Page 29. Mr. Carr is speaking. second one down from toP. says. Mr. Carr. but you have the statement from your Zoning Administrator and, not said. the Fire Marshall; Page 54. down at the bottom. Mr. Davies, at the very end of the sentence. where it says. we obtained a variance in a residential zone to let the storage in. storage; Page 59. Mr. Turner. second one up from bottom of page. they have to be a certain size. but there's no requirement as to height; Page 60. we conditioned the variance as to what they put there. just cross the "to" out. MOTION TO APPROVE THE MINUTES OF AUGUST 25TH. 1993 AS CORRECTED. Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved for its adoption. seconded by Fred Carvin: Duly adopted thi s 15th day of December. 1993. by the fo llowing vote: AYES: Miss Hauser. Mr. Thomas. Mr. Karpeles. Mr. Carvin, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE ABSENT: Mrs. Eggleston September 15th, 1993: Page 7. one third of the way down. second Mr. Carvin. should read. if that's rubble and stuff in there. to see what kind of "drainage for the leachfield"; Page 11. second Mr. Carvin up from the bottom. sentence reads. see. I guess what I'm trying to avoid is having a car just piled up by the whiskey barrels. but sib waste barrels; Page 22. Mr. O'Connor. the sentence reads. I think can contradict. sib I think "I" can contradict; Page 25. Mr. Carr, second one down from top. it's not we have now title to the property. we also have been in contact with, and I think. Niagara Mohawk - where Mr. O'Connor. says. this Board indicated to this Board that he can build this property. can I come in and build a. sib house; Page 26. second Mr. Carvin up from bottom, sentence reads. I think that this is a legal matter. I think we've got two issues before the Board. I think we've got the "information". the applicant has presented; Page 29, Mr. Turner, second Mr. Turner from the bottom, I'm not presuming anything. he's indicated what he's going to do. He's indicated he's going to have two 12 foot "lanes". and two swales; Page 50. second Mr. Carvin up from bottom. do these fences but each other. do they. or is there a. and I think. a space between them; Page 71. motion was Area Variance No. 81-1993. John Baker. Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved for its adoption. seconded by, there's no second there; MOTION TO APPROVE THE MINUTES OF SEPTEMBER 15TH. 1993 AS CORRECTED. Introduced by Fred Carvin who moved for its adoption. seconded by Theodore Turner: Duly adopted this 15th day of December. 1993. by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Carvin. Miss Hauser. Mr. Thomas. Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE - 50 - ~_..._-~._- ABSENT: Mrs. Eggleston October 14th. 1993: Page 12. Mr. Carvin. well. I think they're imposing a stricter condition on this nonpublic road than what would normally be imposed. and I think Bruce has got a valid point. in that we really can't hold him to a standard that. and somebody else comes in for a house that needs a. sIb variance; MOTION TO APPROVE THE MIHUTES OF OCTOBER 14TH. 1993 AS CORRECTED. Introduced by Fred Carvin who moved for its adoption. seconded by Theodore Turner: Duly adopted this 15th day of December. 1993. by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Thomas, Mr. Karpeles. Mr. Carvin. Miss Hauser. Mr. Turner NOES: NONE ABSENT: Mrs. Eggleston October 20th. 1993: Page 7. Mrs. Eggleston. okay. so it wasn't contingent on your getting. "approval", Mrs. Eggleston. again. from the bottom, it wasn't contingent on your getting the variance; Page 31. again. Mrs. Eggleston. down from the toP. see. Ted. I was wondering how the Planning Board didn't pick up all this stuff that wasn't answered. I mean. we're relying on them to do a. sib a review, Page 61. Mr. Thomas. second Mr. Thomas from bottom, 20 feet. and you're taking.. .and the other one's a "nissan", Page 65. Mr. Turner. from the bottom. it's not your position to interpret the Ordinance; MOTION TO ACCEPT THE MINUTES OF OCTOBER 20TH. 1993 AS CORRECTED. Introduced by Fred Carvin who moved for its adoption. seconded by Theodore Turner: Duly adopted this 15th day of December. 1993. by the following vote: AYES: Miss Hauser, Mr. Thomas. Mr. Karpeles. Mr. Carvin. Mr. Turner NOES: NONE ABSENT: Mrs. Eggleston October 21st. 1993: NONE MOTION TO APPROVE THE MINUTES OF OCTOBER 21ST. 1993 AS WRITTEN. Introduced by Fred Carvin who moved for its adoption. seconded by Theodore Turner: Duly adopted this 15th day of September. 1993. by the following vote: AYES: Miss Hauser. Mr. Thomas. Mr. Karpeles. Mr. Carvin. Mr. Turner NOES: NONE ABSENT: Mrs. Eggleston On motion meeting was adjourned. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED, Theodore Turner. Chairman - 51 -