Loading...
1994-04-20 ORIGINAL QUEENSBURY ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS FIRST REGULAR MEETING APRIL 20TH, 1994 INDEX Area Variance No. 21-1994 Taco Bell Corp. 1. Area Variance No. 108-1993 Harris Bay Yacht Club 3. Sign Variance No. 112-1993 Harris Bay Yacht Club, Inc. 23. Notice of Appeal No. 1-94 Woodmen of the World 26. Owner: Florence Murphy THESE ARE NOT OFFICIALLY ADOPTED MINUTES AND ARE SUBJECT TO BOARD AND STAFF REVISIONS. REVISIONS WILL APPEAR ON THE FOLLOWING MONTHS MINUTES (IF ANY) AND WILL STATE SUCH APPROVAL OF SAID MINUTES. ',-- QUEENSBURY ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS FIRST REGULAR MEETING APRIL 20TH, 1994 7:30 P.M. MEMBERS PRESENT THEODORE TURNER, CHAIRMAN CHRIS THOMAS FRED CARVIN DAVID MENTER ANTHONY MARESCO MEMBERS ABSENT LINDA HAUSER ROBERT KARPELES EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR-JAMES MARTIN PLANNER-SUSAN CIPPERLY STENOGRAPHER-MARIA GAGLIARDI NEW BUSINESS: AREA VARIANCE NO. 21-1994 TYPE II PC-1A MR-5 TACO BELL CORP. OWNER: ROGGE, BERNARD 704 GLEN STREET APPLICANT PLANS TO BUILD ONE BUILDING WHICH WILL STRADDLE A ZONING LINE BETWEEN PLAZA COMMERCIAL AND A MULTI-FAMILY ZONE, AND SEEKS RELIEF FROM SECTION 179-22C WHICH REQUIRES A FIFTY-FOOT BUFFER WHERE A PC-1A ZONE ABUTS A RESIDENTIAL ZONE. THE ADJACENT PARCEL ZONED MULTI-FAMILY IS CURRENTLY IN COMMERCIAL USE. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) 4/13/94 TAX MAP NO. 102-1-1, 99-2-1 LOT SIZE: 0.505 ACRES SECTION 179-22C JON LAPPER, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff, Area Variance No. 21-1994, Taco Bell Corp., Meeting Date: April 20, 1994 "APPLICANT: Taco Bell Corporation PROJECT LOCATION: 704 Glen Street PROPOSED ACTION: Applicant proposes to remove an existing nonconforming structure and construct a new building for a fast-food restaurant. CONFORMANCE WITH USE/AREA VARIANCE: The proposed building will straddle a zoning boundary between Plaza Commercial and Multi-family zones. A fifty (50) foot buffer is required where a PC-1A zone abuts a residential zone. The adjacent parcel zoned Multi-family is currently in commercial use. REASON FOR VARIANCE REQUEST, AND BENEFIT TO APPLICANT: Without the variance, the parcel would be unuseable for the proposed building. FEASIBLE ALTERNATIVES: Because of the configuration and size of the site, there are no alternatives which would not require a variance. IS THIS RELIEF SUBSTANTIAL?: Considering that the parcel could not otherwise be used, this relief is reasonable. EFFECTS ON THE NEIGHBORHOOD OR COMMUNITY: Since the adjoining parcel. zoned MR-5, is actually in commercial use, this variance should not have an adverse impact. The ability to remove the outdated structure and replace it with a conforming, new structure would be a benefit to the community. IS THIS DIFFICULTY SELF-CREATED?: It would not appear that this difficulty could be considered self-created. PARCEL HISTORY: In March, 1994, a Use Variance was granted to utilize the site as a fast-food restaurant. STAFF COMMENTS AND CONCERNS: This variance is necessary in order to implement the fast-food restaurant plan approved by the Board in March. As stated at that time, the parcel will be combined with the adjoining parcel, but the zoning boundary will remain, so relief is needed." - 1 - - MR. THOMAS-Warren County Planning Board, April 13th, 1994, "At a meeting of the Warren County Planning Board held the 13th day of April 1994, the above application for an Area Variance to seek relief from the section of the Ordinance which requires a buffer zone, since PC-1A abuts the MR-5 residential zone., was reviewed, and the following action was taken. Recommendation to: Approve Comments: Concur with local conditions. Thomas Haley, Chairperson" MR. TURNER-Okay. Mr. Lapper. MR. LAPPER-Good evening. I believe that this application is relatively straightforward. Because of the unique size and shape of the lot, there would really be no building envelope, if we comply with the 75 foot setback along Glen Street, and the 50 foot setback along the back. The zoning line and the property line are the same. When it was re-zoned, it was re-zoned along the property line. The Commercial Plaza, which was existing, was re-zoned in 1988 to Multi-family. The intent of the provision in the Ordinance, the 50 foot setback, is to protect residential property from commercial property. In this case, I'd argue that it's not necessary. There wouldn't be an impact, because it's not commercial, and while you could say that it could become residential, someday it could be residential, in this case, it's the owner of the lot in the back that's purchasing the lot in the front. So they're not concerned about it, and I think, in terms of the neighborhood, it's just important to get rid of that ugly Carvel building that this Board agreed could go last month, and replace it with a much smaller building, and to move it back. I think that this is the best thing for the neigbhorhood, and this is really a technicality, in this case, the 50 foot buffer is not necessary. MR. TURNER-Okay. Any questions? I'll now open the application up for the public hearing. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED NO COMMENT PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED CORRESPONDENCE MR. THOMAS-I have one note. "To Members of the Zoning Board, Regarding Area Variance 21-1994, I will be unable to attend the meeting tonight. I would like to state that I have no objections to the project. Frank Antos, The Pub" MR. TURNER-Okay. A motion's in order. MOTION TO APPROVE AREA VARIANCE NO. 21-1994 TACO BELL CORP., Introduced by Fred Carvin who moved for its adoption, seconded by Theodore Turner: Grant 100 percent relief from Section 179-22C which requires a 50 foot buffer on lots that abut residential zones. By granting this 100 percent relief, we will not be creating an undesirable change in the neighborhood and there would not be any detriment to any of the nearby properties. Without the variance, this parcel would be unusable for the proposed building, and because of the configuration and size of the site, there are no alternatives which would not require a variance. Considering the unique shape of the parcel, by granting this relief, it would not be considered substantial. By granting this relief, there would not be any adverse impact or effect on the physical or environmental conditions in the neighborhood/district, and it does not appear that this situation is self-created. Duly adopted this 20th day of April, 1994, by the following vote: - 2 - AYES: Turner Mr. Menter, Mr. Maresco, Mr. Carvin, Mr. Thomas, Mr. NOES: NONE ABSENT: Miss Hauser, Mr. Karpeles OLD BUSINESS: AREA VARIANCE NO. 108-1993 TYPE I LC-42A WR-1A CEA HARRIS BAY YACHT CLUB OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE ROUTE 9L, ON LAKE GEORGE APPLICANT PROPOSES TO INSTALL A NEW, CONCRETE, ABOVE GRADE FUEL STORAGE TANK TO REPLACE EXISTING BELOW-GRADE METAL FUEL TANKS. PROPOSED LOCATION IS SIX (6) FEET FROM THE WETLAND BOUNDARY. SECTION 179-60B(l)(a) REQUIRES A THIRTY-FIVE (35) FOOT UNDISTURBED NATURAL BUFFER STRIP. EXISTING ENCROACHMENT IS TWENTY-SIX (26) FEET INTO THE WETLAND BUFFER, APPLICANT IS SEEKING RELIEF OF AN ADDITIONAL THREE (3) FEET, OR A TOTAL ENCROACHMENT OF TWENTY-NINE (29) FEET. SECTION 179-60B(1)[15](c) REQUIRES A ONE HUNDRED (100) FOOT SHORELINE SETBACK. PROPOSED FUEL TANK LOCATION WOULD BE SIXTY-FOUR (64) FEET FROM THE SHORELINE, REQUIRING RELIEF OF THIRTY-SIX (36) FEET. SECTION 179-13C REQUIRES A REAR SETBACK OF (30) FEET FROM THE REAR PROPERTY LINE SO RELIEF OF SEVENTY (70) FEET IS SOUGHT. (DEPT. OF ENV. CONSERVATION) (ADIRONDACK PARK AGENCY) (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) 12/8/93 TAX MAP NUMBER: 10-1-1.1 LOT SIZE: 18.16 ACRES SECTION 179-60B(1)(c) SEQRA TO PLANNING BOARD: DECEMBER 21, 1993 PLANNING BOARD/ZBA WORKSHOP: FEBRUARY 9, 1994 SEQRA: PLANNING BOARD: FEBRUARY 22, 1994 BRIAN O'DONNELL AND JIM MILLER, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff, Area Variance No. 108-1993, Harris Bay Yacht Club, Inc., Meeting Date: April 20, 1994 "APPLICANT: Harris Bay Yacht Club, Inc. PROJECT LOCATION: Route 9L, on Lake George PROPOSED ACTION: Applicant proposes to remove two underground single-wall, metal fuel tanks with total capacity of 7,000 gallons and replace them with an above-ground tank of up to 6,000 gallons capacity. The above-ground tank would be a concrete vault with an inner steel tank, approximately 10 ft. high, 10 ft. wide and 15 ft. long. The proposed tank would be situated six (6) feet from the wetland boundary, sixty-four (64) feet from the shoreline, and thirty (30) feet from the rear property line. The reduction to a single tank is possible because there is no longer a need to supply two kind of fuel. Tanks made by two companies are being considered -- one is 5,200 gallons and is seven (7) feet high, thirteen (13) feet long, and twelve (12) feet wide, weighing forty-seven thousand (47,000) pounds; the other is ten (10) feet high, eighteen (18) feet long, and ten (10) feet wide, weighing sixty-five thousand (65,000) pounds. CONFORMANCE WITH USE/AREA REGULATIONS: Section 179-60B requires a thirty-five (35) foot undisturbed natural buffer strip. The edge of the gravel area is twenty-six (26) feet into the wetland buffer, so applicant needs relief of an additional three (3) feet. Section 179-60B(1)[15](c) requires a one hundred (100) foot shoreline setback, so thirty-six (36) feet of relief is needed. Section 179-13C requires a rear setback of one hundred (100) feet, so relief of seventy (70) feet is sought. IS THIS RELIEF SUBSTANTIAL?: This relief appears substantial, but aside from the "do nothing" alternative, could be considered a reasonable amount of relief considering the size of the site. Moving the tank eastward into the parking lot would reduce the amount of relief needed. EFFECTS OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD OR COMMUNITY: Potential impacts on the immediate community would be the visual aspects of the tank, which the applicant has indicated would be mitigated via plantings. Site plan review should be required if the variance is approved. While installation of a fuel tank may not seem desirable at this location, it should be remembered that - 3 - there are already two fuel tanks at the site, so this is not a new situation. It seems that one new, state-of-the-art tank would be preferable to the two older single-wall metal tanks, in terms of environmental impacts on Lake George. Monitoring of the system would definitely be facilitated. Fire safety has been raised as an issue, with prediction of infernos if there were a catastrophic accident. A letter from the Town of Queensbury Fire Marshal is attached, and states that the tank meets all safety codes. The Fire Marshal also mentioned that this type of tank is commonly used in truck terminals, where there is a lot more traffic and numerous gas tanks and motors. There are installation requirements and protective measures which would address this concern. IS THIS DIFFICULTY SELF-CREATED?: The applicant is attempting to upgrade the facility, has a limited area to utilize, and has not found it possible to meet required setbacks under the zoning codes. PARCEL HISTORY: The Yacht Club is a pre-existing, nonconforming use. The fuel tanks currently in use were installed in July, 1972. REASON FOR VARIANCE REQUEST, AND BENEFIT TO APPLICANT: While the underground tanks have been regularly tested and found acceptable, the above-ground tank would be more readily monitored and serviced. FEASIBLE ALTERNATIVES: 1. The existing tanks can be left in the ground and utilized. From an enviromental standpoint this does not seem preferable. 2. The above-ground tank could be moved eastward, into the parking lot, to reduce the amount of relief needed and provide a greater safety margin in the event of spillage while loading the tank, for example. It is noted that the tank has some amount of overfill containment. A limiting device to help ensure that the tank is not filled more than 90% full, for example, would be a desirable feature, as well. 3. It has been suggested, in comments received from the public, that the tank be located to the south of Route 9L, primarily for visual considerations, although concern over fire safety and possible spillage into Lake George were expressed. This would require a much longer fuel line, and crossing under Route 9L. While this could be done, the southern parcel is surrounded by wetlands, where spillage could have a greater impact than in the open water of Lake George. Fire safety concerns would not be eliminated, as boat storage and a repair shop are present on that parcel. Setback variances would also be required on the southern parcel. Comment from the State Department of Transportation regarding crossing of Route 9L was asked for, and but not yet been received. 4. Construction of an enclosure to screen the tank is another alternative to be considered, if the shorter tank is used. 5. Department of Environmental Conservation staff mentioned that there are metal-lined fiberglass underground tanks available which would also offer the monitoring system and would not present the visual dilemma. STAFF COMMENTS AND CONCERNS: 1. The fact that structures on this site are built on piers brings out the issue of the weight of this structure, plus the weight of the fuel. This is definitely something to be considered when designing the facility. 2. Site Plan Review is not required for this project, but it is recommended that it be required by the Zoning Board. 3. The only issue before the Board during this public hearing is the siting of the fuel tank, therefore, it is hoped that discussion of the septic system, assessment, public versus private usage, etc., etc., can be avoided, as it is not pertinent." MR. THOMAS-A letter from C.A. Grant, Fire Marshal, Subject: Harris Bay Yacht Club Tank Installation "I have reviewed information provided regarding the above installation. I note that a 6000 gallon tank was mentioned although ConVault's largest single tank is 5200 gallons. I have based my review on ConVault's tank as it is the only one for which I received data. The ConVault tank appears to meet all of the required fire safety codes and of course, it would have to be installed in compliance with such codes. A tank installation permit would be required and I would perform inspections to assure that installation is proper. Regarding distances, the New York State Uniform Fire - 4 - Prevention and Building Code uses various NFPA Standards as references. Though the code currently references an earlier edition, I consulted the most recent edition of the NFPA Automotive and Marine Service Station Code 30A as it now specifically makes reference to 'protected tanks' such as ConVault's. Reduction allowances are granted for such tanks, bringing the distance from the nearest important building to 25 ftd·, thhe Qistance to the nearest siqe.o{ a public way to 25 ft., an t e dlstance to any line of adJolnlng property that could be built upon to 50 ft. It appears that the ConVault tank for which we have received data, would if installed per the manufacture's listing, satisfy codes relating to fire safety." MS. CIPPERLY-I'd like to also note information for the Fort Miller Tank. that and found that acceptable. that we did receive Mr. Grant also reviewed MR. TURNER-Let me just briefly say, before we start, that I will not entertain any comment as to the septic system, or anything else that's not pertinent to this application tonight. We're only going to talk about the tank. That's the only issue before us. That's the only issue we'll entertain. So, Mr. O'Donnell, with that said. MR. O'DONNELL-Actually, Mr. Turner, there were two other items for which we believe an Area Variance is required, and that was the decking on the Clubhouse, and the extension of the shed at C Dock, and we'd like to get a determination of all Area Variance issues at one time, if we possibly can. MR. MARTIN-They didn't seem to be pertinent. If the Use Variance for those two components of the plan were denied, then I don't see where the Area Variance is needed on a use that's not allowed. MR. O'DONNELL-We've got an agreement with the Town Attorney, that if judicial review is going to be sought, we would take all the issues in one proceeding, and do it all at once. For that reason, we need your decisions on everything that's pending, including the Area Variance application for the decking and the C Dock shed. MR. MARTIN-Yes, but I don't see how you can have an Area Variance on something that's not allowed. That's like saying, it's not an allowed use, so establishment of an Area is not pertinent. It's not even relevant. MR. O'DONNELL-Consider this. Consider that it may be possible that the Court will disagree with the Zoning Board, and conclude that a Use Variance is not required, in which case, you now have to consider the issue of Area Variances, and what we've agreed with your Town Attorney is, we'll get all the Variance issues decided by the Town Boards, make a determination if we're going to seek judicial review, and if we are, review all issues in the same proceeding. MR. MARTIN-Yes, but it would be ~ understanding that this Board has to operate on the actions it's taken, and the actions it's taken are that a Use Variance was required. It was denied. So therefore the Area Variance is not going to be considered on an illegal use. MR. O'DONNELL-We have an agreement with your Town Attorney. MR. TURNER-I don't know anything about that. MR. MARTIN-We've never done that in the past. MR. TURNER-We've never done it in the past. If the Use Variance falls, then the Area Variance falls with it. - 5 - MR. MARTIN-Maybe Paul should have had some direct contact with you. MR. TURNER-I talked to him today, and nothing ever came up about it. MR. MARTIN-It's the first, I've heard of this agreement to have this, but I thought it was in the context of the Area Variance on the gas tank, should that become an issue. MR. TURNER-How did you advertise it? MR. MARTIN-We just advertised the gas tank. MR. TURNER-Well, that's all we can hear. MR. MENTER-So we couldn't do that anyway. MR. CARVIN-The only agreement we had was the 30 day extension. MR. TURNER-That's the ~ agreement we had. MR. CARVIN-That's the only one L know of. MR. O'DONNELL-Right, the 30 day agreement, the extension, that's the one I'm talking about. There was a time that would start to run for reviewing the Use Variance determination, and since we had all these other applications in progress, we spoke about it, he and I agreed that it made sense, from everyone's perspective, yours and ours, if there's going to be judicial review, do all issues at once. We agreed that the time will start to run from the time of your last decision on the Area or Sign Variance. MR. TURNER-Yes, that's true. That part of it's true. That's fine. We haven't agreed not to do it. We agreed to do it. MR. O'DONNELL-All right, but what you're telling me is that you're not going to decide, as I understand it, you're not going to decide two of the Area Variance issues which are pending. MR. TURNER-First of all, they weren't advertised for tonight. So how can we even talk about them? MR. CARVIN-I think the extension, as ~ understanding is, is to, you have a 30 day time frame to file an Article 78 on the Use Variance, and because the Area Variance is coming up this month, that we were going to allow a waiver of that 30 days, so that if the Area Variance didn't go forward, that the meter, as far as your filing the 78 for the Use Variance, could start this evening, as opposed to 30 days ago. MR. O'DONNELL-And for the Sign Variance as well. MR. CARVIN-And the Sign Variance as well, and, again, that's my understanding is that we have just waived the, we've given you an extra 30 days to file the Article 78 against the Use Variance, or the Area Variance if that's turned down, if that's your desire, but the only thing we're going to hear tonight, as my understanding is, is just the gas tank. MR. MARTIN-Well, for one thing, the shed wouldn't require an Area Variance, because it was an expansion back from the shore, right? It was only expanding back from the shore. MS. CIPPERLY-There wasn't a further intrusion into the. MR. MARTIN-There wasn't a further intrusion into the shoreline. MR. O'DONNELL-That's true, and if that's the determination, that's fine. That takes that one off the table, which leaves us with the issues of the fuel tank and the deck. - 6 - - MR. MARTIN-All I know, it's been past practice, YOU can't hear an Area Variance on an illegal use. MR. TURNER-If you don't get the Use Variance. MR. MARTIN-What's the point? What's the point in granting an Area Variance on a use that's not allowed? MR. O'DONNELL-Well, the point is, if we go to court, and the court determines that a Use Variance is not required, what that's going to do is put us back here for the Area Variance. MR. MARTIN-Right. MR. O'DONNELL-And if that's turned down, then we're back in court another time, which is two trips for you, two trips for us, and months, at least, in delay, and the object of this exercise was to eliminate the multiple trips and the delay. MR. TURNER-Well, I certainly didn't understand it that way, and I don't think anybody else did, and I think once the Use Variance falls, and that's part of the Use Variance, that falls with it, and that's always been the practice of this Board. So, I think, without it being advertised, we couldn't hear it anyway. MR. O'DONNELL-Would you be willing to re-advertise that, and do that at your next meeting? MR. TURNER-No, because I think that, again, it reverts back to. MR. CARVIN-To the Use Variance. MR. TURNER-To the Use Variance. MR. TURNER-Your loss of the Use Variance, last month, the deck being part of it. MR. MARTIN-I think what needs to be clarified here, if that was Paul's understanding, that it would also be on the deck, in light of the fact that the deck needed a Use Variance, also. I heard him say this, that he wanted to consolidate this, and hear everything, in terms of the gas tank, and all that, before they had their judicial review. That was a separate and apart. MR. TURNER-That's the way ~ understood it. MR. O'DONNELL-I did not realize that you were only going to advertise the gas tank. It way my understanding, I'll grant you, I didn't look at your advertisement, it was my understanding that what was going to come up was the entire Area Variance of which we applied. MR. MARTIN-I don't see how the consideration of consolidating judicial review can override the fact that you, how can you grant an Area Variance on an illegal use. Just for the sake of saving some court time, I don't see where that's justification for granting an Area Variance on use that's illegal. MR. TURNER-Well, that was the determination we made last month. MR. MARTIN-That's like nuclear power plant on make any sense to me. saying, we can grant a setback on a the shores of Lake George. That doesn't MR. TURNER-So, with all due, we'll proceed with your application as advertised, if that's your wish. MR. O'DONNELL-All right. That's, apparently, all we're going to be able to accomplish tonight, so lets do that. - 7 - -~~-_._'-_.~---_.~-- MR. TURNER-All right. MR. O'DONNELL-The first thing I'd ask the Board to do is consider it as part of the record on this Variance, the information that you were provided on the Use Variance. I'd like that incorporated into your considerations, without redoing any of it. That would save a good deal of time. Let me move over to the diagram, and go through, briefly, with you what we propose to do. Right now, there are two underground fuel storage tanks, single- walled, right here in the middle of the parking lot, covered with a dirt mat. What we propose to do is remove them and replace them with a 6,000 gallon above-ground, double containment vessel, placed on a foundation and a concrete pad, curved at three sides, with bollards between the parking lot and the tank, over here at the edge of the parking lot. The line would run out to C Dock, and then out onto the Gas Dock, where it currently runs. The reason that we've proposed moving it out of here is to get it out of the traffic to the extent possible. Harris Bay believes that the double containment vessel is significantly safer and less likely to cause an environmental problem than the single-walled vessels, and the location here at the edge of the parking lot, in view of all the safety features, the overflow protection, the double containment, the curbing, the spill protection material, which is going to be kept here, is the best place on the site to put it. We could, if we wished to do so, replace the tanks right here, without permit, without variances, without coming to your Board at all. There are other locations, conceivably, where it could go, but each of them have their problems as well. If it were to go over to this side of the site, there's wetland over there as well. If it were to go under Route 9L, assuming that the Department of Transportation would allow borings under Route 9L, you've got wetland over in that area, too. You've got building storage, and you've got a long line to deal with. This area here we think is, all things considered, the best location for it, and I have nothing to add, other than what's in the application. MR. TURNER-What kind of screening are you going to provide? MR. O'DONNELL-Plantings around here. evergreen type plantings. Ideally, it will be MR. TURNER-Big enough to screen it immediately, or ten years down the road? MR. O'DONNELL-The trees are going to have to grow. No. It's not going to be completely screened immediately. MR. TURNER-Okay. MR. CARVIN-Would stockade fencing be an option, to screen it, at least on two sides? MR. O'DONNELL-I suppose it would. MR. MENTER-It's a ten foot vessel, right, height wise? MR. O'DONNELL-Right. MR. MARESCO-What's going to be done with the old tank? MR. O'DONNELL-Whatever ENCON requires to be done with old tanks. They're going to be properly disposed of, and I can't tell you, off hand, the procedure right now. MR. TURNER-There's two tanks you're going to use. thinking of using one or the other? You're MR. O'DONNELL-We're thinking of using the 6,000 gallon tank. - e - MR. TURNER-Okay. MR. CARVIN-Would that be a ConVault, would it? MR. O'DONNELL-Fort Miller, I believe. MS. CIPPERLY-That's the Fort Miller one, the 6,000. MR. CARVIN-That's the Fort Miller. Because I was going to say, we've got the material on it here, on the ConVault. Fort Miller is another brand name, is it? MR. TURNER-Yes. It's another tank. MS. CIPPERLY-Fort Miller is made down in Schylerville, and it's very similar, just sort of a different shape. MR. MARESCO-So the tank will be visible for a period of time then, right? MR. O'DONNELL-The tank's an above-ground tank, and you will be able to see it, as you can see the mound here now. The question, really, is where on the site you can put it. Without a permit, Harris Bay can put it right there. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. O'DONNELL-And the proposal is to put it over here, because, visually, I think it's going to be easier to screen it, and it'll get it out of the parking area. MR. TURNER-But it's definite that you want to put in an above- ground tank? Is that what I'm hearing? MR. O'DONNELL-That's what you're hearing, and the reason that you're hearing that is Harris Bay has looked at it and considered that to be a safer tank. MR. TURNER-The liability of the in-ground tank versus the above- ground tank. MR. O'DONNELL-You can see the above-ground tank, and if servicing is required, it's easier to service. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. CARVIN-If this variance is approved, when would you be looking at installation? MR. O'DONNELL-I can't give you a precise date. MR. CARVIN-This year? MR. O'DONNELL-No. I don't believe so. MR. CARVIN-I mean, I'm just wondering where this is, in the grand scheme of things, because I know that you had said that this could go out as far as, what, 1999, or longer? MR. O'DONNELL-This could go five to seven years, yes, and it hasn't been phased. I can't tell you it's going to happen this year or next year. It's going to depend upon the availability of tanks, the availability of funds, and the contractors. MR. TURNER-What's the lead time on a tank like that? MR. O'DONNELL-I don't know. MR. TURNER-Okay. Has anyone got any further questions? - 9 - MR. MENTER-I have one question. The Staff made reference to weight as a concern. Do you have any information as to the suitability of that particular piece of property, and the weight of the unit, engineering recommendations or anything like that? MR. O'DONNELL-At this point, there are no engineering recommendations. Before any construction work is done, we're going to do soil testing, and it's my expectation what we're going to need to do is drive piles with the foundation. You can be certain that Harris Bay isn't going to plan to put a 6,000 gallon gasoline tank over here and then see it go (lost word). MR. CARVIN-Suppose that your soil testing takE~s place, and that's not a suitable spot. Then what's your alternê~tive? MR. O'DONNELL-We'll be back. MR. TURNER-Anyone have any further questions? Let me get the public into it. I'll now open the public hearing. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED KARL KROETZ MR. KROETZ-Thank you. My name is Karl Kroetz. There are several things that I want to mention. One is the location of the tank. I can't think of a worse place to put the tank than where it is now or where it's proposed to go. I don't see it makes any difference. What concerns me is you've got 6,000 gallons of gasoline above ground. You've got 270 boats. If each of them have 100 gallons, which isn't too much, I've got a small boat. It's a 60 gallon tank. So, I imagine you've got 100 gallons in each one of those boats. So there's 27,000 gallons of gasoline in those boats there. My concern is fire. It always has been, from the day that marina was put in there. My suggestion, if the tank has to be put in, a new tank has to be put in, is to get it as far away as you can from those 27,000 gallons that are sitting in those boats there. I can't imagine what would happen to the entire community if that place ever caught fire. Every boat is fiberglass, and you know how fiberglass burns, and besides that, each boat has got 100 gallons of gas in it. So my suggestion has been, to take that tank, and get it as far away from those boats as you can get it. Now, obviously, that has to be across 9L. Now that's not impossible to do. It's no more difficult to put a foundation to support that tank across 9L as it is where it is right now. It's sinking right now. The whole marina is under water this minute. So, therefore, as we just heard, to support that tank, needs piles, or it'll just go right down, because that tank that he's proposing weighs 65,000 pounds. With gasoline in it, that's another 36, 37,000, making a total weight of the tank, without a foundation, of 102,000 pounds, or 50 tons. That's the weight of the concrete tank that they're talking about putting in there. Needless to say, it does need piles or it will go right down to the bottom of the muck. Therefore, it's no more of a hardship to put that tank across 9L, which brings me to the other point. I did not hear when you read some of the permissions that were received for the placement of this tank. My question was, as I was listening, is this a current permit that has been given? I mean, I'm thinking of something like my septic tank. If I wanted to change my septic tank where I live, I could no longer do it under the present rules that exist. When my house was built, and my septic tank was in, it was perfectly legal. I couldn't do it anymore. The question, as I was listening to you, has the permission to put this tank been granted for this new application, or is it just an extension of the old rules, 20 years ago, you could do most anything? MR. THOMAS-They're asking for permission to put it in with this variance. - 10 - MR. KROETZ-Well, all right. So they don't have permission. MR. TURNER-They have a permit ground, that's what they have. for the two tanks that are in the That's what he read to you. MS. CIPPERLY-They also have all the current DEC. MR. KROETZ-Okay. That's what it is. That, in itself, means nothing. I've got a permit for my septic tank, when L put it in, 27 years ago, I could not get a permit to put a new one in that same place. The rules have changed. So, I am bringing up the safety angle here. That's what I'm bringing up. MR. TURNER-Mr. Kroetz, Sue's got a comment for you. MS. CIPPERLY-I spoke, just this week, with the DEC representative that would have handled, for this kind of installation, and he did not say that there would be any problem with, I mean, it would be something that was within their regulations to have this kind of tank there, and he's the one I talked to about different types of tanks. He said it would be perfectly within the realm of their regulations for them to be replacing their existing tanks with a new one. MR. KROETZ-That would be the DEC's application. What about the local Fire Ordinances that exist in the Town of Queensbury? MS. CIPPERLY-As I said, also, I had the application reviewed by the Fire Marshal, and it was within his regulations also. MR. KROETZ-That answers my question. I did bring up the point of the weight of the tank, but I understand, now, if it's going to be supported on piles, then it's feasible. So, that'll take care of that. My main objection is the fire hazard, and, of course, the minor objection is the fact that the tank is ten feet high, and it's eighteen feet long, and it's higher than this ceiling, and it's longer from those double doors over to that flag. It's a big tank, and that's an aesthetic problem, but my big problem is one of danger. I mentioned to you, many months ago, now, that when the tank, when the docks were first put in, they broke away in a big windstorm, and the fuel line was attached to it, but I presume it didn't break, and that brings up another question, that I haven't got the answer to. I'm very familiar with the marinas around this part of the lake. I don't know of one that has a discharge pumping unit on a floating dock. They're all on solid ground. This is on a floating dock. I just raise that question because I just don't know of any on Lake George that is on a floating dock. All these docks are floating, and that was the only other comment I have. These comments are really all on the area of safety, and I'm sure the tank itself is very safe. There's no question about the tank. It's the location of the tank that bothers me. The tank itself is as safe as you can make it. Thank you very much. MR. TURNER-Thank you. Who wishes to be next? JOE ROULIER MR. ROULIER-Good evening. I'm Joe Roulier. I'd like to go over to the diagram. This is probably one of the areas that I would agree with Harris Bay Yacht Club on. My biggest concern, obviously, is the location of the proposed tank. Aesthetically, I think it's the worst place they could put it, as Mr. Kroetz just said. In my oplnlon, the principal reason for the location of the tank here, there's two reasons. The first reason is that the tank, the current tank is here, and I do know that in the summer time it presents a real problem in terms of the traffic that's in here, and the problem it creates when they do have to get a fuel truck into here, and they have 150 cars in there. It becomes a difficult problem for them. That's not my problem. - 11 - The second reason why they want to put it here, move it from here over to here though, is that this would represent the least costly expense, in terms of the amount of line required to hook up a line, whatever, it's two inch, or four inch, or three inch, over to the existing gas dock. That, in my opinion, is the only reason why that tank is there. For my own benefit, I would like to know the total cost, the total estimated cost, of this project, because I'm sure, incrementally, to run the line from the south side of the road over to here, or from the east side of the property over to here would not be that much more, in terms of the overall cost of what this project will be. What I would like to say, Mr. O'Donnell has indicated that there would be screening, and he said that evergreen trees would be used, and that they would grow. As Mr. Kroetz has said, the tank itself will be larger than the ceiling. It extends from here over to the exit sign. In a lot of situations, I've seen people putting evergreen trees here. Okay. There's nothing, I've never seen an evergreen tree planted where people would say they would plant it that exceeded twelve foot tall. One of you, I believe, brought up a stockade fence. The maximum height that I'm aware of for a stockade fence is six feet. Okay. The height number that I'm referring, the ten feet, that's the tank vessel itself. There will be a foundation. By the time the foundation is put in, whether it be piles or whatever is proposed, will exceed ten feet. Now we're probably up to eleven or twelve feet. It'll look like a huge RV sitting over there, in probably the most visible spot at the marina. I would trust that all of you have been there. This is 9L down here. There's a little creek that goes here. This is really sitting right out there on the west end of this property. At one of the previous meetings, Mr. O'Donnell was asked the question, had you checked with Department of Transportation to see if they would allow some type of piping from the south side of the road over to the gas dock. He indicated that he believed that they would not allow this, but, in fact, has he actually checked into whether DOT will allow some type of piping to go from the south side of the road over to the gas dock? In terms of a Critical Environmental Area, okay, this entire area, as it's been demonstrated or at least brought up before, is a wetland that has been filled in for thirty-five years. It is, all of it, including across the road, a Critical Environmental Area, regardless of whether you put the tank here, you put the tank here, or you put it back on the south side of the road, you will always be either close to the back wash, close to the stream that runs through, but in any event, in a highly Critically Environmental Area. The weight, I know Mr. Kroetz brought that up. The two of us have calculated the weight. We had estimated, in addition to the numbers that he had given you, though, we had estimated that the base of this, that this would be supported on, would add another thirty-three thousand pounds to the overall number that he provided, bringing the total weight up to approximately one hundred and thirty-four thousand pounds, when it is filled to capacity with gasoline. It's been brought to your attention how this is continually sinking. Obviously, some type of pylons, whether they would be here, here, or in the south, will be required for this particular project, or this will sink out of sight. I just have a couple of more comments, and I think that'll pretty much wrap it up for me tonight. I hope that you do consider the overall character of the neighborhood. One of the questions on the application is, does it have an effect on the neighborhood, and I know that this entire Board, if you had to look out your front window, and had to look at something, a structure this size of this, for the next 50 years, it seems to me that would have a highly detrimental effect on the neighborhood, and in my opinion, with the technologies that are available today, that the south side of this property, where there are storage sheds already, where a shed or some type of adequate screening can be provided, would be much more beneficial than having all the people in Harris Bay and the people of North Queensbury have to look at this particular vessel. So, with those particular things in mind, I hope that you deny this - 12 - particular, this phase of the application. Thank you. MR. TURNER-Thank you. Mr. Adamson? CHARLIE ADAMSON MR. ADAMSON-I'm Charlie Adamson from Assembly Point. I should point. oyt tha~ I'm also DiIector of the Assembly Point Assoclatlon, WhlCh represents, ln some ways, the 200 properties on Assembly Point. That brings up several properties on Assembly Po!nt, and several properties, some of whom are owned by my frlends on Cleverdale, the base of Cleverdale, face the marina. Whereas, I would agree with some of the opinions here tonight, that the above ground, the safe above ground tank probably is a heck of a lot better than what's in the ground now, particularly if what's there now should happen to break. I think that's probably the better of bad solutions, but putting it on the north side of the road, and choosing the 10 foot high tank, I understood, tonight, that there was a 7 foot high tank mentioned, 6 or 7 foot. That would be, I don't know whether gallonage determines the fact that they have to have 10 feet. The 10 feet on the basis, possibly on the basis of a 2 or 3 foot base. I don't know whether the base would be sunk in the ground, how it was constructed, but just imagine this mausoleum sitting there, great big, assumably grey, tank. It should be done properly, and I think probably the bulk of the members of the Harris Bay Yacht Club would like to do things properly, and not antagonize people. If you're going to use this tank, it should be on the south side of the road, out of sight. You've got some buildings that are not very attractive there now. They're there. They're going to stay. If this gets mixed up with those, nobody's going to even know this exists, and it just does not make any sense to put this thi ng out, li ke a sore thumb, in public. I guess, I thi nk that's, that, and the fact that if you're going to put it back up, put the lowest one up you possibly can. If you put up a seven foot tank, I think Mr. O'Donnell will agree, you can even buy trees that would protect it the first year. Thank you. MR. TURNER-Thank Public hearing Chris? you. Anyone else wish to be heard? Okay. is closed. Have you got any correspondence, MR. THOMAS-Yes. CORRESPONDENCE MR. THOMAS-I have a letter from Frank N. Parisi, to James Martin, Executive Director, "Dear Mr. Martin: I have a place on Gunn Lane on Harris Bay and I'm interested in what transpires at the Harris Bay Yacht Club. As one taxpayer in the area who would be affected by the use of the Yacht Club property, I wish to be placed on record as indicating my objection to the Harris Bay Yacht Club's "master plan". I would appreciate it if you would put me on notice of any future meetings concerning this project." Two identical letters from Karl Kroetz to Mr. Martin, I'll read the part that pertains to the gas tanks, "The HBYC is asking for an area variance to locate a 6000 gallon gasoline storage tank above ground, at the west end of the parking area. This tank will be 10 ft. high by 10 ft. wide by 15 ft. Ig. While the location of this tank may be the least expensive for the HBYC, it is certainly no attempt to minimize it's unattractive appearance to public view, nor does it minimize the possible danger to the community. The best location from a safety and appearance point of view would be on the south side of Route 9L, where the HBYC owns many acres of suitable land. In the event of a fire, this location would separate the 6000 gallon storage tank from the 272 boats (all with their own gasoline tanks) whether they be at the docks or in winter storage in the parking area." I have a letter to Joe Roulier, Inc., cc: to Mr. James Martin, I'll read the part of the letter concerning the gas tank. "As to the 6000 - 13 - gallon tank above ground, a much better location should be found. In fact a properly designed system could be totally or partially underground. Gerald Hewlett (for Ethel W. Hewlett)" That's it. MR. TURNER-All right. Do you have any further comment? MR. O'DONNELL-No, I don't. MR. MENTER-I just have a quick question here. What are the current rules and regulations regarding replacement of the existing tanks that you have? There's a time frame within which they have to be replaced, is that right, overall? I don't know if that's the same as commercial, retail gas outlets for cars, they have to be replaced every so often. MR. O'DONNELL-Yes. It's been a while since I've looked at it. I believe it's not until about 1998. I'm not certain about that. It's some time off. MR. TURNER-Have you approached DOT as to crossing the road, at any point? MR. O'DONNELL-No. MR. TURNER-You haven't considered it at all? MR. O'DONNELL-No. MR. TURNER-Okay. No thought to consider it? MR. O'DONNELL-If you require it, we'll have to consider it. The reason that we haven't is because it's going to require boring under the road for sure. I can't imagine they'd let us open the highway to do this, and we'd have to run a much longer line. MR. TURNER-Yes. What size is the line that goes out the dock? MR. MILLER-It's either an inch and a half or two inch, I'm not sure exactly. MR. TURNER-Okay. MR. CARVIN-The tank that's in the ground now, would you have an approximate, I know it's a bigger tank. That's a seven thousand gallon tank, is that correct? MR. O'DONNELL-There are two tanks, one 3,000, and one 4,000. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Would you have any idea of weighed when they were new? In other words, apples and oranges, here? what those tanks are we comparing MR. O'DONNELL-I don't know. They're probably lighter because they're single-wall steel tanks. The amount of the gasoline, gallon per gallon, would weigh the same. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Have you had any problem with sinkage there, or are they on pilings? MR. O'DONNELL-I don't believe they're on pilings, and, no, they're not sinking. MR. CARVIN-Okay. MR. O'DONNELL-I'm personally familiar with the site since 1980, and that mound has been in the same place, looking the same way, for the entire time. MR. MENTER-And one of those tanks is not being used right now? - 14 - MR. O'DONNELL-They're both being used. MR. MENTER-They are? Okay. I thought I read somewhere that only one of them was being used. MR. O'DONNELL-Apparently, at some point in the past, and I don't know when, there was the idea of being able to dispense two types of gasoline, maybe two types of gasoline will be dispensed. MR. MENTER-Okay. type. So they were both switched over to the same MR. O'DONNELL-And, right now, there's a single type of gasoline, and it's just in two tanks. MR. CARVIN-Is the area under water, now, is it? I haven't been out there since this winter. MR. O'DONNELL-I haven't been up there in a while. I don't know whether it is or whether it's not. I understand the lake was quite low. MR. MARTIN-I was there about 20 feet north of the edge of the road. this point. Friday, and I'd say the water's probably the edge of the road, 15, 20 feet north of The lodge has got water surrounding it, at MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. CARVIN-So, in other words, the in-ground tanks are covered with water at this point, or is that a safe assumption? MR. MARTIN-I would say that, when 1 was there', I think there was a likelihood they were under water. MR. CARVIN-Okay. If, and I think this is probably indicative of a poor winter, in other words, a high lake, is that safe to assume that, because of all the snow? MR. MARTIN-Last year, for example, I was up there at this time of the year, see, it all depends on how the melt goes, too. I think we've had a reasonably slow melt this year. Last year, the water extended to where there was one lane traffic on Route 9L. MR. CARVIN-Well, I guess where my questioning is leading is that if we put the new tank on a concrete slab, will that still be above the high water mark? MR. O'DONNELL-It probably will, but it shouldn't matter. The reason you put them above water is so that they don't pop out of the ground. As they empty, it's like putting a balloon in there, and as the water table rises, it'll lift the balloon. With the system that's being proposed, you're not going to have that issue. MR. CARVIN-I guess, I'm just not familiar with water and gas. The only thing I know is that they normally don't mix. MR. O'DONNELL-The gas is in something, too. You've got to keep that in mind. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Do you keep the tanks full, or would they be considered empty at this point? MR. O'DONNELL-I believe they're full. MR. CARVIN-Are they full? Is that basically to keep the weight in it so they don't pop up? MR. O'DONNELL-And you don't have a condensation problem. - 15 - Typically, it's my understanding that Harris Bay fills them at the end of the season, so you don't have water through there. MR. CARVIN-Okay, and you've never had any problem with the tanks leaking, so you don't get water in the gas, because of the high water? MR. O'DONNELL-No. MR. CARVIN-It's never been a problem up to this point? MR. O'DONNELL-I know of no problems at all with it. MR. CARVIN-Okay. How about the two inch line, or the inch and a half, two inch line, has there been any problems with that going out to the spot, out to the docks, in other words, heaving and anything like that? MR. O'DONNELL-I don't think so. MR. MILLER-That floating dock system that's there now, the old system that was damaged was anchored by a system. My name is Jim Miller. The system that was damaged before was, before the dock replacement, that was a floating dock that was anchored by a series of concrete anchors and chains. That has since been replaced with a laminated cedar dock, which is held in place by six inch steel piles, that have been driven into the bottom of the lake, which allows the docks to rise, but they don't shift laterally, like the old system. Down the center of the docks is a utility channel that has a cover that's removed and the gas line runs through that. Now the line is galvanized pipe with a new tank that would be, also a double-walled piping. It would be fiberglass with a flexible inside liner. So it will be, essentially, more flexible than what's there, but the dock is very (lost word) compared to the old system that was damaged. MR. MARESCO-I would like to entertain a consideration of finding out some more information about putting the tank on the south side there. I do have a problem with the tank being there. I'd like to see it on the other side. I would like to find out more about that. MR. MILLER-We looked into that, and part of the problem that we have there is the other side is most fully covered by a large storage building, and as the Fire Marshal's letter read, this tank has to be a minimum of 25 feet away from that building. So there is no place on the south side of the lake, between the building and the road it could go, or even on the west side, because that's a driveway that goes back, and a wetland on that side. So, in order to put it on the south side, it would have to be way to the rear of the property, and we're talking, probably, 300 feet back. It's not like we can just put it on the other side of the road. It can't be inside the building. It would be nice to put it inside where you can't see it. The Fire Code won't allow it, and all winter long that entire south side of the lake is used as boat storage also. MR. CARVIN-To the east side here, is that all wetland also, is it? MR. O'DONNELL-Yes. It's all around it, and the APA has flagged the wetlands. You can see them on the diagram, basically around here, and around here. So, wherever you go on the site, you're going to be close to the wetland. There's just no way to avoid that. MR. CARVIN-I'd rather see it where it is. MS. CIPPERLY-Fred, the photographs that are in that folder I gave you on the gas tanks really illustrate where they are in relation - 16 - to the water. MR. MARESCO-Why can't it be screened, immediately, with the trees, instead of getting small bushes, to get 10, 12 foot pine trees, and screening it. MR. O'DONNELL-I don't know what type of tree >'ou'd need to put in there. What I'm thinking of is a cedar type of tree. MR. MARESCO-Yes, but cover it right away. there are trees you can I've seen people do that. purchase that'll MR. O'DONNELL-It's my understanding that you've got to leave a certain amount of room for the trees to grow. So you're going to be able to see the tank to some extent, no matter what we do with it, and keep in mind, that our alternative, if you turn us down and say, no, you can't do that, our alternative is to put either an above ground or below ground tank right where it is, right here. You'll be able to see that very well. So we think we're proposing something which is a better alternative. MR. TURNER-Question. On the east side of the, looking photograph, on the east side of the property, how deep water in here? at the is the MR. O'DONNELL-It varies. MR. TURNER-Is it deep enough to get a sailboat in there? Is it deep enough, it's deep enough to get any motor, they've got cabin cruisers right there. MR. O'DONNELL-I can tell you, you can put a sailboat with a four and a half foot draft right there, because I had one there, but I don't believe you could get much farther in than about this area here, with a four and a half foot draft sailboat. MR. TURNER-I was wondering why you couldn't put the tank over here, and just move your feed line from here to over there. MR. O'DONNELL-The tank could go here, conceivably, but you have here the same problems that you have here. MR. TURNER-I know, but it's. MR. O'DONNELL-Proximity to the lake, proximity to the wetland, and you have the additional problem of increased distance. MR. TURNER-Yes, but can't you take your line and run it out on this dock, this extension, move your pump right over to the east. MR. O'DONNELL-I don't believe that's feasible. MR. TURNER-You don't think it is? MR. O'DONNELL-Out on the end of this dock, which you can't see in the photograph, there is a gas dock constructed specifically for that purpose. All these other docks are constructed as single member docks. It's permitted by the Lake George Park Commission. I'm confident that there's no way that the Lake George Park Commission would allow a change to this dock system, and the reason I'm so confident about that is I did the permitting to get the dock replacement, and it was difficult at best. So the gas dock is going to have to stay where it is, and that's on the end of C Dock. MR. TURNER-It would be less obtrusive over there. out of sight. It would be MR. CARVIN-We're just wondering if because right out here I've got to the land is firmer believe that's going here, to be - 17 - soft. MR. O'DONNELL-Wherever we put it we're going to do the soils testing before we put it in. MR. TURNER-Yes, but I think logic says that maybe, if you do test borings there and you find out you can't locate there, like you said, you're coming back. So, then, where else are you going to put it? MR. O'DONNELL-We're either going to put it here, or we're going to come back. MR. TURNER-Yes. Okay. Thank you. MR. CARVIN-I don't know what else there is to say. I mean, I guess I like the idea of the above ground tank. I think it makes more sense than the in-ground. I wished I had more information, as far as testing. I mean, I just hate the thought of giving an Area Variance on a spot, and then you go out in two years time, or three years time, and find out that it's just not feasible to put it there, as some of the other Board members have expressed, I'd like to see what some cost comparisons, in other words, I don't know if it would be feasible to put it over in maybe the eastern portion. In other words, what would the cost be to run a line out to your dock there? I'd like to see you move it from where it is, because I think it would give you a little extra parking space, but in lieu of that, I guess it would have to go back there, on an above ground basis. That's basically my feeling. I can't say that I'm terribly QEPosed to the above ground tank, but I'd just like to have a little bit more information just to see if there was another feasible spot. MR. MENTER-I think the aesthetic issues are very important here. You're very close to the road. Actually, the road comes so close to the property right there. MR. CARVIN-And they ~ close to that stream. MR. O'DONNELL-The primary reason that we haven't proposed putting it over on the east is it would be more difficult to get the fuel trucks into and out of there. MR. TURNER-Yes, because of the parking, because of the traffic in the summer time. MR. O'DONNELL-Yes. The tanks are not filled when the parking lot is full of cars, but it's quite a maneuver in getting over there. MR. TURNER-I think you said you filled them on a Monday or Tuesday, and then maybe on a Friday also? MR. O'DONNELL-That's my understanding. The highest usage is on the weekends. MR. TURNER-Well, but I don't think, I still think you attempt to tell us east side. again, I'm not against the above ground tank, again, you have explored all the possibilities can maybe move it over there, at least make an why you can't, or why it can't be done on the MR. CARVIN-I think for his own benefit they should do some boring and testing there, just to see if it is feasible. I mean, why go through all this rigamarol and then find out that you have to drive pilings down 500 feet before you hit anything, and then you're back here anyway. MR. TURNER-I mean, if this tank is not an issue for two or three years down the road, why go through the whole scenario and find out you can't put it there anyway? - 18 - MR. O'DONNELL-Well, YOU certainly have a good point, but the flip side of that is, why go to the trouble of doing borings anywhere, if we haven't got a spot that's approved to put it. MR. CARVIN-But it would at least give creedence to your argument, I mean, that it is capable. I know 1 have a question about that, and that que$tion has been raised. I mean, we are talking several ton, by any stretch of the imagination, and the visuals on the site would indicate that it's soft there, and now your in- ground tanks apparently have not been a problem, and I don't suspect that there will be a problem out there, but I don't know, and I don't thi nk YOU can answer me, because you've said that )lOU don't know if there's going to be a problem there. MR. O'DONNELL-That's correct, but I also don't think that that is legally one of the considerations before you at this point. MR. TURNER-Well, you know, you've said to us, yes, we can put the tanks back where they are, but instead we want to take and put an above ground tank on the west side. We can't go across the road because we don't have room enough to put it over there. We're not sure we can get a permit from DOT to bore under the road anyway. Now we say to you, why not put it over on the east side, give us a cost estimate as to what's involved there, and even whether you can even put it there or not, but you haven't explored that possibility. MR. O'DONNELL-Well, we have explored it, and the reason that we haven't proposed it is because of maneuverability for the fuel trucks. That's my understanding of it. The people that took a look at this, and decided that it would be practically better and easier to get the fuel tanks in and out of there where it's proposed, than over on the east side, which is why we brought this alternative for you as opposed to (lost word). MR. CARVIN-What would be the size of the fuel trucks? Are they 18 wheelers? Are they 10 wheelers? What kind of truck are we talking about? MR. O'DONNELL-I think we're talking about a 10 wheeler. MR. CARVIN-A 10 wheeler, and how much more difficult is it to get a 10 wheeler down there than a boat with a trailer, or a car with a trailer on it? MR. O'DONNELL-I have no idea. MR. CARVIN-Well, you've explored it. I mean, this is what you're telling us. MR. MILLER-Well, we talked about it. The problem is, it's deceiving, one driveway here is not really usable for a truck. It's very steep. The main entry way is over here. So, to get into this corner, they would have to come in here and traverse across the site, and this area is an area there tends to be a few cars. They tend to be close to the building, or over near D, or E, or F Dock. So, in talking to the management and the staff that operate the facility said it would be very difficult, trying to get a fuel truck into this corner of the property is going to be a real problem on a lot of occasions, where if it's on this side, it's more readily accessible. Both these driveways are usable, and this is the last corner of the parking lot to fill up. That was the reason. The primary reason was to get it out of the groundwater and move it where it would be out of the main stream of the parking lot and accessible for fueling. MS. CIPPERLY-Jim, what about the location there where the recycling enclosure is? Would that be accessible by truck, without having to go into that back space? - 19 - MR. MILLER-Well, you'd still have the same problem, because a lot of the congestion happens right off the back of the clubhouse. MR. MARESCO-Why can't they just start their parking on the other side, then, when they realize that, they know when the truck is coming. So when they have their people coming, tell them, lets park on this side. MR. MILLER-The problem is there's not always staff right there when the members are showing up. You take time during the week, there may be a couple of people, somebody's out at the dock, somebody's in the office, and people come to use their boat, they park and go out. It's not something that's that heavily manned that you could have somebody directing traffic. As soon as you turn your back, somebody will park where they're not supposed to. MS. CIPPERLY-Another point on that, necessarily come back the same day. cars for several days at a time. also, is that people don't They, I assume, leave their MR. MARTIN-While we're speaking of alternatives, I may as well clarify one other issue on behalf of the applicant. They would not be entitled to, in my view, the existing location as a matter of right, due to the fact that the existing tank is underground, and is not considered a structure, does not have elevation. If you establish an above ground tank, even on the proposed site, now you have a structure that's not there today. So I would think that that is, also would require an Area Variance. So, I just want to make sure that that's clarified before we get too far off on that tangent. MR. CARVIN-Well, then we come back to the underground. MR. TURNER-No. They're going to take it out. above ground there if they took them out. They'd put an MR. CARVIN-I thought in the staff minutes or something they said that there was an underground tank that might be feasible. MR. TURNER-They could put them there, yes, but they want to put it above ground. What he's saying is, if they take those out and they put an above ground there, they've got to come back for an Area Variance, because it's a structure. If they put the two in- ground tanks, in the same spot. The only other thing, with the in-ground tanks today, they're all monitored, so that they have every safety thing you can just about think of on them. It has the overflow. They have every alarm on it you can think of. They could put it in the ground. MR. CARVIN-Or, they could put it above ground, right there. MR. TURNER-Yes, or above ground. application, either yes or no. Okay. 50 lets move the MR. CARVIN-I'm still not convinced they haven't looked at all the alternatives. MR. TURNER-Yes, I think so. I think there's other alternatives that I don't think they've explored. The argument they can't get a truck in there is not valid to me, because if that truck comes on a Monday or a Tuesday, when the week is light, they could pull right in there. The only problem they would have would be on a Friday, maybe. MR. CARVIN-Chris, what do you think? MR. THOMA5-I think the above ground tank is a better idea. MR. TURNER-Yes. I don't have an argument with that. - 20 - MR. THOMAS-And the only place, where they propose, I think, is probably the only place it could really go. MR. CARVIN-Or they could put it right above the underground, if they wanted to move that up. That's an alternative. MR. THOMAS-It's an alternative, but now it's out in the middle of a parking lot, and you've destroyed how many, what, eight parking spaces. MR. CARVIN-They don't have any parking there now anyway. You haven't destroyed any. MR. THOMAS-Yes, but they will have eight parking spaces there, once that in-ground tank is gone. MR. TURNER-If they take it out. MR. THOMAS-If they take it out. take it out. Well, they're going to have to MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. THOMAS-Whereas, over here on the side, they're not destroying any parking. MR. MARTIN-I think you have an increased traffic concern with it out in the middle of the lot, getting it bumped into. MR. THOMAS-I imagine traffic barriers, the s;ix inch steel pipe filled with cement could stop pretty much anything that could go anywhere near it, but off to the side, I think if they put those quick growing shrubbery around it, and those Chinese Elm, they grow like weeds, something like that would hide it, but I think where they've proposed to put it is probably the best place to do it. MR. CARVIN-Well, it's got to go to site Plan, right? We're going to make a recommendation to go to Site Plan? MR. THOMAS-Definitely. MR. TURNER-Yes, if it goes, yes. They'll address the pilings. MR. MARTIN-Ted, any discussion about the smaller tank, it's three feet lower in height? MR. TURNER-That would be more feasible, if that's where the Board feels more comfortable with them putting the tank where they want to put it, I think three feet would reduce the aesthetic impact considerably, if they go with a smaller tank, in height. The tank they propose is nine foot nine inches high, and the other one's seven foot. MR. CARVIN-Who's responsibility is it, notify site Plan? Suppose they don't do this for two years, or three years? MR. MARTIN-Well, the first thing, your variance only has a life of one year. MR. TURNER-One year. They have to come back if they don't, for an extension. MR. MARTIN-And they'd have to come back for an extension of that. MS. CIPPERLY-This other things that plan issues. So, time. could also be combined, I assume, with some they were proposing to do that would be site it could probably be all considered at the same - 21 - MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. CARVIN-I guess I don't see the difference between passing the motion, if they're not going to do anything for a year, and then tabling it until we get additional information. Do you know what I'm saying? MR. TURNER-Yes. Again, I agree with you that if this isn't going to take place for two or three years down the road, then all the other issues should be explored and satisfied before we move on it. MR. CARVIN-I agree with Chris. At this point~, it probably does look like the most logical spot. MR. THOMAS-If they wait two or three years, maybe they'll come out with a lower profile tank. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. THOMAS-Some it's a smaller quote unquote, the tank inside way that they can get as many gallons in, but vessel, because there is a lot of wasted space, inside there, because it'll hold 125 percent of that cement containment. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. THOMAS-Maybe they'll come out with something different, in two or three years, that. MR. CARVIN-And again, I don't know what erosion does out there, but suppose that stream moves in the course of it, there's a lot of things that that spot. MR. MILLER-That culvert's been referred to as a stream, and as a matter of fact, if you look in the DOT Permit, one of the reasons that the pipe was allowed to be put in there, it's only a balancing culvert that balances the water level between the wetland and the lake. It has no current through it. MR. CARVIN-So it's not an official stream. Okay. MR. TURNER-You don't think, at this point, you'd give any consideration to exploring it any farther than you have, then, in respect to the east side of the property? MR. O'DONNELL-We have come in with what we believe is the best alternative, and I think what I'd like you to do tonight is vote it up or vote it down, and we'll go from there. MR. TURNER-Okay. All right. A motion's in order. I don't think it's got to be too lengthy. Move to deny it, based on the fact that there's other considerations, there's other feasible alternatives. They can move the tank to the east. They haven't explored that avenue. The consideration that they have a problem getting the tank truck in there, I don't think that's a valid one, because if they can get the boats in there with trailers, as indicated by the photograph, there's a cabin cruiser sitting right on the edge of the wetlands, they can get a tank truck in there. Okay. MOTION TO DENY AREA VARIANCE NO. 108-1993 HARRIS BAY YACHT CLUB, Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved for its adoption, seconded by Fred Carvin: The relief is substantial. Placement of the proposed tank has a visual impact on the neighborhood and the community. The applicant has not explored the consideration of moving the tank to the east boundary line of the property. That is a feasible alternative. The applicant also has indicated that he proposes - 22 - to use the Fort Miller tank, which stands some nine feet nine inches high, some twelve feet six inches long, and some nine feet nine inches wide, when there is available a smaller tank which is seven feet high, thirteen feet long and twelve feet wide. The visual impact will cause an undesirable change in the neighborhood, and is a detriment to the nearby properties. Duly adopted this 20th day of April, 1994, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Menter, Mr. Maresco, Mr. Carvin, Mr. Turner NOES: Mr. Thomas ABSENT: Miss Hauser, Mr. Karpeles SIGN VARIANCE NO. 112-1993 TYPE II HARRIS BAY YACHT CLUB, INC. LC-42A WR-1A OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE ROUTE 9L, ON LAKE GEORGE APPLICANT PROPOSES TO REMOVE EXISTING FREESTANDING TWO-SIDED SIGN AND AN EXISTING WALL SIGN. APPLICANT PROPOSES TO INSTALL A NEW, WOOD, THIRTY-FIVE (35) SQUARE FOOT SIGN, FORTY (40) FEET FROM THE PROPERTY LINE. RELIEF IS SOUGHT FROM SECTION 140-6B(3)(b) WHICH ALLOWS SIGNS ONLY IN C AND M ZONES. PROPOSED SIGN MEETS DIMENSIONAL CRITERIA OF THE SECTION. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) 12/8/93 (DEPT. OF ENV. CONSERVATION) TAX MAP NO. 10-1-1.1 LOT SIZE: 18.16 ACRES SECTION 140-6B(3)(b) SEQRA TO PLANNING BOARD: DECEMBER 21, 1993 PLANNING BOARD/ZBA WORKSHOP: FEBRUARY 9, 1994 SEQRA: PLANNING BOARD: FEBRUARY 22, 1994 BRIAN O'DONNELL & JIM MILLER, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff, Sign Variance No. 112-1993, Harris Bay Yacht Club, Inc., Meeting Date: April 20, 1994 "APPLICANT: Harris Bay Yacht Club, Inc. PROJECT LOCATION: Route 9L, on Lake George PROPOSED SIGNAGE: Applicant proposes to remove existing freestanding two-sided sign and an existing wall sign, and replace them with a new, wood thirty-five (35) foot wall sign. CONFORMANCE WITH USE/AREA REGULATIONS: Signs are not an allowed use in Land Conservation zones. A variance was granted for the freestanding sign in 1970, but there is no record of a variance for the wall sign, which will be removed. Relief is sought from Section 179-13 for the new wall sign. BENEFIT TO THE APPLICANT: Removal of the freestanding sign will provide additional parking space, while installation of the wall sign will still allow identification of the Harris Bay Yacht Club. EFFECTS ON NEIGHBORHOOD/COMMUNITY: The proposed sign would be an improvement over the existing signage. ALTERNATIVES: There do not appear to be alternatives which would be preferable. The applicant is removing two signs and installing one, resulting in less signage. IS THE AMOUNT OF RELIEF SUBSTANTIAL: No, since there is a decrease in signage. WILL THE VARIANCE HAVE AN ADVERSE EFFECT OR IMPACT ON THE PHYSICAL OR ENVIRONMENTAL CONDITIONS IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD OR DISTRICT? This sign will be more attractive and less visible than the existing freestanding sign, so should have no adverse impact. STAFF COMMENTS AND CONCERNS: It is likely that this variance will only be implemented if the Area Variance for relocating the fuel tanks is approved, as the freestanding sign is located on the mound covering the underground fuel tank." MR. TURNER-Mr. O'Donnell? MR. O'DONNELL-Let me move over to the diagram. The two signs that currently exist are on top of the fuel mound right here, and on the building right here. The sign which is proposed for substitution would go on the building right here, on the south side. You may have mooted out the reason for the Sign Variance, by denying the Area Variance. However, I'd like to keep the Sign Variance application alive (lost word) since the Club may decide - 23 - to replace the sign, regardless of the decision on Variance. There's nothing that I have to add, beyond the application. the Area what's in MR. TURNER-All right. MR. O'DONNELL-I'd be happy to answer any questions. MR. TURNER-Does anyone have any questions for Mr. O'Donnell? MR. CARVIN-You're going to have just two signs on the building, then? MR. O'DONNELL-One. MR. CARVIN-Just one? You're going to take the two off? MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. O'DONNELL-There's a single sign on the building now. MR. CARVIN-Okay. I wasn't sure if there was going to be one on the west side and then one on the south side. MR. O'DONNELL-What's proposed is one on the south side. MR. CARVIN-Just on the south side. Okay. MR. TURNER-All right. hea ring. Thank you. I'll now open the public PUBLIC HEARING OPENED CHARLIE ADAMSON MR. ADAMSON-What's the difference, this is going to be, what, I forgot. The size seems much larger, to me, than before. MR. TURNER-Thirty-five square feet. MR. ADAMSON-Thirty-five square feet. I'm just curious, I can't remember, I've seen, well, since they were put in, fourteen centuries ago, but what is the size of the present sign? MR. MILLER-I think it's (lost word) square feet, the one that's on there, that freestanding. MR. ADAMSON-The freestanding. that? This is going to be smaller than MR. MILLER-Yes. MR. ADAMSON-Okay. MR. ROULIER-I have no formal objection to the sign. I would to see if the Board could somehow tie in the other signs. For example, last year, I believe there were neon signs in the windows, indicating beer sales. I'd like to see those removed from the window. I don't think it's the Club nature that it's supposed to be that they're appropriate, either for the members, they know what's in there, or for the general public to have to look at, and any other signs, the gas dock, for example, or whatever types of gasoline. I thik they're catering predominantly to the members of the Marina. I think that other signs should be prohibited from the property, but I think, in terms of their proposal for the new sign, I think it's certainly all right. Thank you. MR. MENTER-I don't think those other issues are really relevant. - 24 - MR. TURNER-Not on this application, no. MS. CIPPERLY-Another point that should be made is that they don't necessarily have to take down their freestanding sign in order to replace the one on the building. MR. TURNER-That's your proposal, though, to take it down. You're going to take the two signs down, and put the one on the building. MS. CIPPERLY-That's correct, but what I'm saying is, if they took one of them off the building, and wanted to put their other smaller one up, that might be a possibility. If the gas issue isn't worked out for a while, I don't know if that represents your thinking or not. It's just mine. MR. O'DONNELL-At this point, what I think it's best to leave the proposal that's been made on the table, vote it vote it down, and we'll decide what to do from there. do is up or MR. TURNER-Yes. Okay. Does anyone else wish to be heard on application? Okay. The public hearing's closed. the PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED MR. CARVIN-I just have a question. Are there signs advertising gas out on the lake? MR. O'DONNELL-I believe there is a sign out there. I can't tell you exactly what it says right now, but I believe there's a sign by the gas docks. MR. TURNER-Price signs? MR. O'DONNELL-The price are (lost word) I'm sure about that. MR. TURNER-Yes, they're there. MR. O'DONNELL-I can't tell you, I can't remember what's out there on the gas dock, but it's not part of this application anyway. MR. TURNER-They have to have the signs out there that are required by the Federal government and the State government as to the pricing. The other signs, no. MR. CARVIN-What I'm saying is, if they had a sign, Gas For Sale, does that fall under the Town Ordinance? MR. TURNER-Yes. It does. MR. CARVIN-And if so, is it approved, or does that fall back under the preexisting nonconforming? MR. TURNER-I don't know how long it's been there. MR. O'DONNELL-I can tell you, since 1980, there have been gas pumps there, in the same location. MR. TURNER-No, the sign. Has there been a sign out there, Gas For Sale, for any length of time? MR. O'DONNELL-I don't know that there is a sign out there that says, Gas For Sale. I just, I don't remember. What's out there is a small building, and one or two gas pumps. I can't remember whether there's one or two at this point, and I suspect there's a sign that says Harris Bay Yacht Club on the building, although I'm not sure. I just don't know. It's not something I was prepared to talk to you about. It is totally outside of the scope of the application. - 25 - MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. O'DONNELL-And I can't say whether there's anything out there. MR. CARVIN-No. You're right. is an enforcement, if there's enforcement issue. I'm sorry. this. It's beyond the scope. It really a violation out there. That's an No. I don't have a problem with MR. TURNER-Yes. Okay. Lets move the application. MOTION TO APPROVE SIGN VARIANCE NO. 112-1993 HARRIS BAY YACHT CLUB. INC., Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved for its adoption, seconded by Fred Carvin: As proposed. The applicant proposes to install a wood sign 35 square feet, attached to the south wall of the building, and remove the existing freestanding sign, two sided, which says Harris Bay Yacht Club, and the wall sign will also be removed, on the west side of the building. There will be no adverse impact on the community. In fact, it would clean up the maze of signs and incorporate the two signs into one. It would be less visible, only from the road side. The)' had a previous variance allowing the freestanding sign, and this will be a general benefit to the Town and to the applicant. Duly adopted this 20th day of April, 1994, by the following vote: AYES: Turner Mr. Maresco, Mr. Carvin, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Menter, Mr. NOES: NONE ABSENT: Miss Hauser, Mr. Karpeles NEW BUSINESS: NOTICE OF APPEAL NO. 1-94 LC-42A WOODMEN OF THE WORLD OWNER: FLORENCE MURPHY WEST SIDE OF ROUTE 9L, RIDGE ROAD APPLICANT SEEKS AN APPEAL FROM THE DECISION BY THE ZONING ADMINISTRATOR THAT, BASED ON HIS INTERPRETATION OF SECTION 13D(3)(b)[5] AND RELATED DEFINITIONS IN SECTION 179-7, A USE VARIANCE WOULD BE REQUIRED TO UNDERTAKE A PROPOSED USE ON LAND CURRENTLY OWNED BY FLORENCE MURPHY. ACCORDINGLY, AN INTERPRETATION IS REQUESTED FROM THE ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS. TAX MAP NO. 22-1-4.1 LOT SIZE: 14.67 ACRES MICHAEL MULLER, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT MR. TURNER-And before we start, I think what we ought to do with this application is, Mr. Muller has raised some issues in his letter. What I'd like to do is, we'll go through the application. We'll have the public hearing, take the information, table the application, and consult ~ Attorney as to Mr. Muller's letter, and his case law. MR. MULLER-So, basically, after we've said everything that has to be said, and you've heard everything that has to be heard, we're going to kick this to Paul Dusek for his opinion, before you render your decision? I don't have a problem with that. I just want to know if that's your opinion? MR. TURNER-Yes, that's what we're going to do, clarify ~ position, maybe. MR. MULLER-Okay. I'll stand on my law. No problem. MR. TURNER-Okay. Mr. Muller. MR. MULLER-I think that it's important just to discuss a little - 26 - bit (lost word), how we got here, why we're, and what very limited or narrow purpose this is all about. If, for instance, there's people in the room want to hear about what's really planned here and how they're going to park cars, and how often this is going to be open, and will there be five thousand people leaning over a picnic table drinking beers all night long. Those are very legitimate concerns, and those are certainly not part of any.ö" Pí~sentatio~ tQn¡ght, ~or ~ny representation of any ln lcatlon ot what mlght be happenlng. That is that what we squarely wish to address is the Ordinance, and ask for your consideration, if you will, as to a reasonable interpretation of the Ordinance. So, if we work it backwards, because I think it's encumbent upon us as applicants to prove to you, basically, why we're here and what we are. The owner's Florence Murphy, and her son Jim Murphy is seated to my right here. Basically, Mrs. Murphy has entered into a contract with Woodmen of the World, and, going into this thing, I had no idea what Woodmen of the World are, or is, and I think, actually, for the purposes of analysis, here, I think that Jim Martin, at one time, had indicated he had been a member. So he probably knows a little bit more about than me. MR. MARTIN-I had insurance through them. I wasn't a member. MR. MULLER-Okay. To get to be a member, you've got to buy insurance, I believe. Okay. Now you're in. Then the question is, what do they do. Well, I was invited to a meeting to find out what it is they do, and actually, to make a presentation to try to explain to them what the Zoning Ordinance is, because they had gone to the Planning Board level and, basically, had gotten shot down, said, well, you're not in the right zone to do what you want to do. I went to only one meeting. Nobody tried to sell me insurance. Nobody discussed insurance. Okay, but I know Mr. Turner doesn't believe me. MR. TURNER-I'm listening, Mike. I'm listening. MR. MULLER-All right, and I'm not trying to sell you insurance tonight. I want to give this to you. I want Paul Dusek to take a look at it after you've looked at it. I want to explain it first, okay. This Woodmen of the World lodge that would be interested in buying Mrs. Murphy's property, basically, I asked them, I wanted something that is not, if you will, fabricated or created specially so that you could see it, somebody put something hokey together here. This is actually the annual activities schedule of the Woodmen of the World lodge that's in Glens Falls. They don't have a facility. It exists as a lodge, if you will, but there's no place to hang your hat. The activities on here, just so that I can cover them on the record, are your typical activities that are in that definition of a lodge and group camp. January of '93 they were installing their officers and having a dinner meeting at Bayberry Corners. February they were having a covered dish supper and Valentines Day. They just said, Happy Valentines Day meeting at the American Legion. March of '93 they were making plans for a Memorial Day parade float and Arbor Day plans. In April, this lodge had a covered dish supper, plans for History Awards. I can tell you, at the meeting 1 was at, they were discussing scholarship awards for the top student in history in the local high schools. The May meeting was to finalize the Memorial Day float plans, and in June, they were to discuss a possible night at the races, and Officers meeting. July, a Woodmen of the World Family Picnic. In August, Summer Youth Encampment, obviously at another place. September, they were planning a Halloween function, also having a coffee and dessert meeting. October was a combined meeting with their Youth Watch. In November they had a Thanksgiving dinner, Woodmen Family celebration, election of officers and planning Christmas activities, a meeting at the Queensbury United Methodist Church, and December was a Woodmen Christmas Celebration, with Santa, planned installation of - 27 - Officers, and dinner meeting. That was at the Glens Falls National Bank Community Room. I wanted to just submit that as an exhibit to indicate to you that those activities that are going on are very characteristic of the activities that you're going to see going on in the building that we propose to purchase from Mrs. Murphy. MR. MARTIN-Do you know, Mike, if they intend, at all, to use this site as a place for overnight lodging, whether it be within the structures that are there, or retrofitted structure that would be proposed, or even within tents or RV's that would come to the site for a weekend festival or get together? MR. MULLER-I can't answer that, but if I could bring somebody up who might be able to. MR. MARTIN-Okay. PETER BOVAIR MR. BOVAIR-No. We have no plans for anything like that, and we never have. LOU RAWLINS MRS. RAWLINS-My name is Lou Rawlins, and I'm an Area Manager with Woodmen, and I have an office in Ballston Spa, and I handle the area from Albany County all the way up to Indian Lake. As far as having any overnight, that has not been discussed, and basically what this is going to appear is more or less the type of activity that we will be doing, but as far as any overnights or any camping, that has not been discussed. MR. TURNER-But it is a possibility. MRS. RAWLINS-It may be a possibility. MR. TURNER-Do they do it elsewhere? MRS. RAWLINS-In the South, Woodmen is a very large organization. They have camps, such as Girl Scout camps and that sort of thing, their own camps, facilities for kids, but, no, there's not enough room for us to totally run a youth camp there. MR. TURNER-You wouldn't bring RV's or anything, like, in there at night, you know, during a weekend Camporee, or whatever, and stay overnight? MRS. RAWLINS-I don't believe so. MR. MULLER-Mr. Turner, I would say that although she doesn't seem certain, if you look at the Ordinance, it's permitted. MR. TURNER-I know, but I just want to get everything out in the open. MR. MULLER-Yes, so do I. MR. MARTIN-The other thing, it was presented, I think, in the short time that this was before the Planning Board that this was going to be a relatively small gathering of 25 people, but yet I've heard numbers of hundreds of memberships in the Lake George 'lodge and the Glens Falls lodge. What is an expected or projected membership? Is this the start of a new lodge chapter, or is that something you do? Do you have Chapters? Do you have local lodges? What is your average membership? What do you expect it to be? So what kind of usage are you looking at at this facility? MRS. RAWLINS-Okay. Presently, in this specific Lodge of 1015 we - 28 - have approximately, I would say, anywhere from 75 to 100 members. MR. MARTIN-This is Lodge 1015 that's proposing this? MRS. RAWLINS-Right. MR. MARTIN-Okay. MRS. RAWLINS-Now, the most that we have had so far in the past, at Lodge meetings, is I would say probably 20, 25 people. Okay. We have a large membership, but as a member, it's just very similar to something like Nights of Columbus, okay. It's a non profit, Fraternal organization that strictly adheres to somewhat of a certain religion, whereas Woodmen, we're not, it's an anyone can join type thing. MR. MARTIN-What's the membership in the Lake George Chapter, for example? I know you have a Lake George Lodge. MRS. RAWLINS-This is the Lake George Lodge, 1015. That's approximately 75 to 100. It's right in there. We have a Glens Falls Lodge of people that meet, and as far as the membership, paying dues into that Lodge, it's approximately 425 people. As far as at the meetings, in which I will be attending one of those tomorrow night with that Lodge, we get anywhere from 15 to 20 people showing up for the activities, except for, say, a picnic, you know, a family picnic or a family gathering. MR. MARTIN-What is the standard for membership? requirements that you have to meet? What's the MRS. RAWLINS-You usually have some product with us, be it life insurance, or annunities or some type of investment with us. MR. MARTIN-Is that in addition to a membership fee, or what you pay for a premium is your fee? MRS. RAWLINS-No. What you, you pay a dollar and a quarter a month for dues, which goes right along with whatever you have with our Organization. So, in actuality, you're paying fifteen dollars per year to belong to Woodmen of the World. MR. TURNER-When you said your membership was from Glens Falls, does that include the members in Queensbury? MRS. RAWLINS-Yes. MR. TURNER-Queensbury does have, did have, if I remember right, have a Chapter of their own, at one time. Because they came for a variance one time. MR. BOVAIR-It was the Glens Falls Lodge. MR. TURNER-No, no, the Queensbury. Glens Falls doesn't come to Queensbury, or, you know. I could be wrong, but I'm almost certain that Woodmen of the World came for an addition of something to a building up in West Glens Falls. Does that ring a bell? MRS. RAWLINS-As far as ~ know, there's only been, in the last 20 years, there's been one, we have one in Indian Lake. We have this new one we started. We have the Glens Falls/Queensbury, but I'm saying anybody can belong to these. I don't care if they live 50 miles north or west, they can still belong. MR. TURNER-No. I was just trying to distinguish whether there was a Chapter in Queensbury by itself. MRS. RAWLINS-As far as I know, there aren't. I can research it. MS. CIPPERLY-One of the benefits that you have on your literature - 29 - for members is free camp attendance, and I guess you contract with Catholic Charities right now, with Camp Scully? MRS. RAWLINS-We have, we are renting that facility this summer, yes, for two weeks. MS. CIPPERLY-And my question is whether that would be, perhaps, your intent in the future, up here? MRS. RAWLINS-No, absolutely not. The facility, it does not have the size and the, that place will hold one hundred children per week. MR. MARTIN-I guess what we're interested in, is there plans for installation of a ball field, and athletic facilities, or picnic areas that are conducive to a campground situation, or maybe even, I don't know, I mean, these things can go as far as the installation of hook-up facilities for RV's and that type of thing. I mean, is there any? MRS. RAWLINS-It has absolutely not been discussed by myself or the meetings that I have attended about any RV hook-ups. We have discussed ball fields, and recreation facilities for children in the area. MR. MULLER-Could we, admittedly, although Lou and I certainly haven't discussed it, I think, to try to be direct and honest about this, if they were asking me, was this a good site, and through a group camp, make it into an RV Park, the answer's no, that is that that was never our plan. Okay. That is that I, I make the representation here this evening, that they are going to be a Fraternal Lodge, which they are, that is that that's what their literature says. I had a little difficulty in trying to figure out what a Fraternal Society was. I guess I would feel a lot better about it if all they ever did was charitable acts, but they do have a business aspect to them. So, then I said to Lou, well, do you sell insurance at this location, I mean, are you setting up an office or something like that, and the answer was, no, we're not retailing insurance out of this location. We're basically having our meetings there, doing our activities. I tried to figure out, well, what were their activities, and I was given a, basicall)', a brochure about what Woodmen Fraternal Care Program was all about, and they do things like give flags to schools, issue patriotic handbooks, which I'm aware of because I came from Woodmen of the World with the Boy Scouts, but they do trophies for proficiency in American History in high schools. In other words, they give a gift, a monetary gift, and a plaque. I heard them talking about that, and then it goes through a whole list, in terms of the other activities that they do. For instance, they provide equipment for senior citizens centers, the playgrounds, the police departments, contribute to Habitat for Humanity. So, if you will, it's as if we have an organization here that wants to squarely fit within the use. In other words, lets not get hung up, if you will, on the title. So, for instance, if, I know that this is such an extreme example, but it's a good example, and that is that if for the American Nazi Party would wish to put a group camp, as long as the activity fits within your zoning definition of a group camp, you're not to concern yourself with, what is that, if you will, that owner stand for, or what is their name. So, we want to make a direct representation to you, in terms of what the activity is, that it's squarely on the useage, then these concerns that do float around about, will there be 1,000 people there. Will there be a Blue Grass Festival? I've heard it all, and I guess now this evening was, will there be recreational vehicles. It's a pretty legitimate concern, but I think that everybody along Ridge Road would be very anxious to know about, and more importantly, as I think you all do know, that is that those issues would be attended to at Site Plan process, where the Planning Board has the right to approve it, approve it with conditions, or deny it. - 30 - So it's not a guarantee, even if you folks are persuaded, after this presentation and after Paul Dusek comes back with his analysis on the law, yes, it fits within the zoning requirements, but that's not a green light for this project by any means. That is that they're back to Square One, if you will, where they were, when they were told that there are other sections of the Zoning Ordinance that pertain to Fraternal Organizations. So I guess ~hat we'r~ asking YaW i~ to make a decision on, an lnterpretatlon, lS on the lssue that's properly before this Board, to sit, if you will, as jurists, to make that decision, and in doing so, you've got to be fair to Mrs. Murphy, that is that she certainly bought the property in reliance upon the Zoning Ordinance, and the Zoning Ordinance squarely says that a group camp would be permitted. I don't think, and I would really like to hear from Board members, if you think that we're forcing the issue, and trying to make something that we have contrived into a group came, because I tried very hard to either find that. it fits, or just turn t.o Mr. Murphy and say that it doesn't fit. I was satisfied that it fit, if Woodmen of the World was going to do what they represent they're going to do, and by the way, there's a business aspect to practically everyone of these not for profit organizations. I'm very active with the Boy Scouts, and I can tell you that, I bet you if the Boy Scouts made an application to do what the Woodmen of the World wishes to do, we'd all have a clear picture in our mind that they're clearly allowed to do it, because it says, Boy Scout camp, but it also says in that same definition a Fraternal Lodge. The Boy Scout camp has a business aspect to it, too, that is that you don't get in for free. It costs you fourteen bucks to get in, and you don't st.ay in for free. It costs you about one hundred bucks for a uniform, and then you do pay for camp. So, you know, there's, don't get hung up on the monetary aspect, the not. for profit aspect of this thing. MR. CARVIN-Mike, you addressed the Ordinance, Section 179-13, Under the Type II, basically, B5, Group Camp. Why don't you consider this under Site Plan Review Type I, in other words, Section III, Number 2, Recreational Center and Lodge? MR. MULLER-Well, Fred, I looked at what a Group Camp was, I went to the Definition Section, 179-7, and it says right there, Fraternal Lodge, right in it. I jumped right on it and said that's what t.his is. That's what I was t.old it is, and that's what we represent to you that it is. It's a Fraternal Lodge. MR. CARVIN-Again, I guess my, did you look at center/lodge? Did you feel it was clear enough? a lodge, or will this be declared a lodge? the recreation I mean, is this MR. MULLER-It's going to say the word "Lodge" on it. What Section? It will. MR. CARVIN-Well, it's 179-13, Section D(3)(a)[2]. MR. MULLER-Okay, recreational center. Definitions. Let me go to your MR. CARVIN-I'm not quite sure there is one for Lodge, is there? MS. CIPPERLY-There isn't one for Lodge. MR. MARTIN-No. It's under Recreational Center and Lodge it says that. MR. MULLER-Okay. Recreation Center and Lodge is any recreation oriented facility particularly oriented and utilizing the outdoor character of an area, which does not depend upon amusement devices or rides. These recreation uses may include, snowmobile trail, cross country ski trail, hiking, backpacking trails, on and on, as well as playground, picnic area, public park, public - 31 - beach, soccer, baseball, football, tennis, water related activities. I think that if I tried to persuade you that that's where it fits, that would be stretching it. That is that this will be a Lodge that will have meetings in a building and will conduct activities within that building, and that recreation center and lodge seem to be sort of like cross country ski areas, outdoor activities that were not dependent upon a ride, sort of like horse stables and things like that. MR. CARVIN-Okay. How would you characterize the purpose, in other words, Purpose B, the purpose of the Land Conservation Zone encompasses areas where lands have serious physical limitations, or unique characteristics that warrant restricting development to very low densities. How would you? MR. MULLER-How would I characterize it? MR. CARVIN-Yes. I'm looking at some of these things, and I don't think that a Boy Scout Camp could necessarily be considered a low intensity or low density activity. MR. MULLER-Well, gee, I'm going to agree with you, because I've been to Boy Scout Camp for about five or six years in a row. I've been to Jamborees. There's nothing low intensity about that. After they move off the lot, everything is smashed flat, okay. That is that I was at the Jamboree last summer, 35,000 Scouts, and when they moved out of the Army base, what was green when we went in was brown, flat, dead, over. Nothing low intensity about that. I would say to you, though, in fairness to Mrs. Murphy and in fairness to this applicant, that is that if we look at Type II, and we pick up Group Camp, and lets go look at the definition of Group Camp. Group Camp says, right there, Boy or Girl Scout Camp. So, in other words, the people who put the Ordinance together, people like Mr. Turner who sat there and helped them put this Ordinance together, thought that was a low impact activity. MR. MARTIN-Well, let me explain ~ position a little bit as the person who sort of is taking the position for the Town on this. First of all, I think in the way Ordinances are usually constructed, one of the first things that's done, and typically done, is somebody will do a Land Use Inventory of uses that are present in a particular area, and that'll be the skeleton on which the Ordinance is built, and those will likely be included on that list of allowed uses, and I think what you see, the Group Camp designation, I would suspect why this is in this part of the Ordinance is, you currently have and have had for many years a Boy Scout Group Camp, on the shores of southern Lake George, or the wetlands of Dunhams Bay, to the south of Dunhams Bay. There's been a Boy Scout Camp there for many years, or, no, I'm sorry, a YMCA Camp. YMCA Camp. It's on upper Bay Road, I think north or south of Pickle Hill. MR. TURNER-South of Pickle Hill. MR. MARTIN-Yes, and if I were to do a Land Use Inventory, not unless I have a very good reason, as someone constructing an Ordinance, will I zone out an existing use, and when I think of Group Camp, that's what I think of, something well set off the road, accommodating overnight stay campers, that type of thing, and when I think of Fraternal Lodge, I think more of the Nights of Columbus with their picnic pavilion on Route 9. They conduct their business and banquets out of there, summertime cookouts, even, they'll cater to weddings and so on, or the Elks Lodge here on Cronin Road. That, to me, is a Lodge, and that's why I made the determination I did. That's a Lodge function, and that on Upper Bay Road is more of a Group Camp function. It's an overnight thing, and that's been there for years, and I'll bet you I've been by that hundreds of times, and you don't even know that's in there, and it's seasonal in nature. That's another - 32 - thing. MR. CARVIN-This is part of the problem. I know, when I've read these 01-dinances over, I know that they were written because there was a Boy Scout Camp there, so they made it an included item, but essentially what that does, though, is that opens up the doorö'tbecause you couldt haye 50 BOaY $cout Camps out there, ð~ay, an ña~ runs coun~er 0 the ~w enslty thrust that. MR. MARTIN-Well, in making this determination, I was considering the character associated with each, because there is a distinction drawn between Fraternal Organization or Club, and Group Camp, and I'm not saying it's a bold, wide, black line, but there is a distinction, nonetheless, and one had to be made. MR. MULLER-Could I ask you a question, because he's right on that point. Jim, in Group Camp it says Fraternal Lodge. MR. MARTIN-Yes. I'm not saying it's the best definition construction in the world there, but, nonetheless, there is a distinction, and there was obviously a distinction made by design, because as you cite, Fraternal Organization is specifically listed in certain zones and not others, Highway Commercial and Recreation Commercial. I mean, somebody did that by design. That was done for a reason. MR. MULLER-Right. MR. MARTIN-I have to assume that. MR. MULLER-Right. So, where Jim and I are, that is that, I think that when we get down to it, and he's here to jump up if he disagrees with this, we are now narrowing in on where the ambiguity is, and I don't have a problem with that, but I want to emphasize, and this is the question that should be squarely placed in the lap of the Town Attorney, is that, where there's an ambiguity, how are we, as Zoning Board members, required to construe it. That's why I gave you the case, that is that, it really is down to, this is a good question, and there are valid interpretations on both sides. Which one deserves to be the winner? There's no question there. That is that the case law will support the proposition that it's the property owners. It's basically fundamental, that is the property owner had nothing to do with drafting the Ordinance. The ambiguity is through the draftsmanship. So it must be construed in favor of the land owner. There are no cases that go contrary to that. MR. MARTIN-The other thing that I think is pertinent to call your attention to, at the end of Group Camp, it also says, see Camp, and Camp is any land including any building thereon used for any assembly of persons for which it's commonly known as camp purposes, whether or not conducted for profit or whether or not occupied by adults or by children, either as individuals, family, or groups, and, to me, in reading this, and having to make a decision, the Elks Lodge and their functions and how they conduct their affairs, or the Knights of Columbus, is not in the same character as a Group Camp or a Camp functions, outdoor cooking and tents and overnight stay and that type of thing. MR. CARVIN-Well, I guess my next question is, is there a difference in Fraternal Organizations? Is there a central Charter that the ~ apply for to become the Fraternal Order of Elks, or Gamma Delta Iota, which is a Fraternal Organization? MRS. RAWLINS-Well, there's all different types of Fraternal Organizations. Like in New York State alone there's probably 120 different types of Fraternal Insurance Organizations. There is, like, the Polish Union. There's the Knights of Columbus, I mean, there's many, many, many of them. It just happens Woodmen of the World is a very, very large Fraternal Organization in the south. - 33 - In most of the southern states, there are very large Lodge Halls and recreation facilities and one of them may vary from one to the other, as far as different, some may strictly have bought a Lodge Hall and had meetings there that's very similar to what he was mentioning about the Elks Club, okay, maybe a picnic area outside, but there may be another one that has one with a large swimming pool, tennis courts, that sort of thing, okay. It depends on each area whatever has been approved. MR. CARVIN-Okay, but I guess my question might be more directed to Mr. Muller. Is there any difference as far as the taxibility or the classification, as far as the law's concerned, between the Elks and an Insurance Fraternity, for example? MR. MULLER-I don't know the status of Woodmen of the World in terms of tax, okay, but I would say to you, in terms of Fraternal Organizations, there are certain better distinctions in law than what this Ordinance takes. There's no doubt about that. For instance, the not for profit corporation in the State of New York has at least three catagories of what would be for that one organization. So it's not that it's a different tax aspect, but it's a different thrust, if you will. Some of them have a religious approach to what they wish to achieve. Some of them have an education approach to what they wish to achieve, and there's a third category, and that is Illeomasonary, that's the third catagory, that is that they just do charitable, good deeds. I don't feel that Mrs. Murphy is required to go into the not for profit corporation law to make a solid argument, that is the solid argument that I think she makes is in the ambiguity found within our Ordinance. If I looked at it and thought for one moment that I didn't see that word "Fraternal Lodge" within Group Camp, I'd go hook, line, and sinker with what Jim Martin has to say. MR. MARTIN-But I think, inasmuch as Fraternal Organizations can have focuses, I agree with that, and certainly, like a Boy Scouts or something like that has a Camp type function or a Camp type character to it, much more so than does, I think in this case, Woodmen of the World. If they have, you know, if they're running business meetings and things like that, and organizing fund raising or charity events, that's, to me, not outside of what is done at an Elks Lodge, or some other Fraternal groups that have regular business type Lodge Halls in Commercial zones, and in conclusion, I would say, there's been case law cited. I think Mr. Muller has made some good points, and I would recommend it on to the Town Attorney, as well, and clear those up. MR. MULLER-One of those cases that I cited, I was actually the successful attorney in the Appellate Division that argued the case. MR. TURNER-The one in Lake George? MR. MULLER-Yes, Freihofers. Basically, what you just have to be very, very careful about is that, I know what you want to do, you want to do the right thing, okay, and sometimes, as a zoner, you sit there and you wish to construe it so that, just get me out of this mess, that is that there's two constructions here. It's better to not change the situation at all. Lets avoid it. It's not reasonably within the construction of the statute. What you're doing then is you're basically, by innuendo, by suggestion, you're expanding the Zoning Ordinance. You're not to sit here as a legislature. You're to sit here as judges, and that's where it says, the zoning law is in derrigation of common law. In other words, it's contrary to the common law, and so if you're going to construe it, you have to strictly construe it, and it must be strictly construed in favor of the land owner. That's where it falls down. That's where you would want it to fall down if it was on your property, and the Planning Office and the Town Attorney was saying, well, there's two very logical - 34 - constructions here, and the only other question is, so which one's favorable to the property owner? MR. TURNER-Okay. Is that your presentation? MR. MULLER-Yes. I'd like to reserve some time to answer whatever other issues come up. To help you out, though, I mean, all these other. 90ncetns about, there's going to be loads of people there, and lt s gOlng to be a twenty-four hour operation, and they'll have a band there every weekend, you know it's not relevant to this sort of proceeding. MR. TURNER-No. MR. MULLER-Okay. MR. TURNER-All right. I'll now open the public hearing. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED KAREN SOMMER MS. SOMMER-My name is Karen Sommer, and I live on Upper Ridge Road. I live directly across the road from the barn that's involved in this discussion. I'll try and clear my thoughts up here, and the first step in this process was the Planning Board, and at that point at that point in time, the meeting was aborted because of improper notification. Then, we started doing some research into what was involved with Woodmen of the World, and at one point, I sent for some information through their Guilderland, I guess they have an office in Guilderland. It's one of four in our general area. There is none in the immediate area, that I'm aware of, or none that's been confirmed, trying to find out what they were, what they do, and how they do it, in order to come to some kind of conclusion about how we felt about the project. Unfortunately, we didn't get very far, in terms of actual facts from the Woodmen, other than what we got in writing. What we do know is primarily they are registered in the State of New York as an Insurance Company. They sell Life and other types of insurance, as you might see from the flyers that were sent along with their packet. How they sell the insurance is unclear. You can't get it through an agency. I don't know whether they do or not. I do know that one person in opposition is in the room tonight, was solicited to go to a meeting by someone else that's in the room, how they make their contacts, and whether they do it in a manner that might encompass this building eventually is unclear. Those things have not been answered, and in effect, after reading Mr. Muller's brief, we may be dealing with totally incorrect terminology anyway. This may not be a Fraternal Lodge, and it may not be a Group Camp. It may be a business. It appears that it's an ongoing, entwining type of a relationship, and I sat down and wrote something· today, and I think it might better explain what we've been able to come up with, on our own. If it's contradicted at some point, perhaps it will be, but at this point, this is what we've discovered. I'll start from the beginning. When reading the Zoning Ordinances, as they were referenced, it becomes clear that they are somewhat difficult to read. However, I believe the problem lies more in the lack of clarity of the Woodmen of the World, and how to properly define them, within the scope and terminology of our Ordinances, than it does with the Ordinances themselves. They seem to be more difficult for us to pin a hat on than our Ordinances have certain terms that we can at least come to a general conclusion about what they mean. First and foremost, they are an Insurance Company, and according to their own literature, they are in the business of selling a variety of Life Insurance policies, among other things. This commercial operation of the Woodmen promotes and matches money, according to their information, to their Lodges. Now, Lodges are apparently not buildings. They're people. How many people lodges have structural lodges is - 35 - unclear. I don't know of any others in the area. We don't know how many lodges these two barns will service. That's another issue, but at any rate, I believe that they are not separate, but rather co-mingling activities. The Woodmen policies are not available through traditional Insurance Agency, but only through Field Representatives. These Field Reps are also members who, therefore, will also be using this facility. Potential new members are steered to these Reps by existing members. At the very least, this Organization sells the benefits of its membership on a regular basis, and membership is obtained by buying a policy. The commercial aspect of this operation cannot be ignored, since everything they offer to members, be it a camp or a trip, begins with the purchase of a policy. Therefore, one must come to the conclusion that the selling of policies is also very important to the members of the Fraternal Organization, and anyone who is promoting that particular aspect of the group. If you read through the literature, it indicates that there is somehow a formula to match monies. Whether they have to sell a certain amount of policies to have matched, monies matching the net money goes back into the Lodge, would be how I read what they sent me as a "potential purchaser". So I can't seem to clarify where the commercial aspect stops. It appears to be all drawn together in this entity, unlike a Group Camp, which has a separate purpose, and unlike the Elks Club. We need to define what we're really dealing with, and know more about how they actually operate before we can come to a conclusion, which is probably why we have the confusion. I think that was all I had. We need to determine the extent of commercial activity that may go on in those buildings, because if we can't do that, we really don't know who the Woodmen are. MR. TURNER-Okay. MAC COFFIN MR. COFFIN-My name is Mac Coffin. I live right next door to the Murphy property. There was several of us out here in the hall at a Planning Board meeting, that they stated definitely there was going to be RV parking. That was brought up, and then all of a sudden it was denied. I see the woman right here shaking her head no, and the guy right next to her is the one that told us that. That was brought up. Now we did some research. Woodmen of the World is a pretty secretive organization. They tell some members one thing and other members another. We've heard a day care center, day camp, youth camp, live Country bands, baseball fields, picnic pavilion, meeting center, and RV and camper parking. We heard all this from members of Woodmen. I think that maybe this thing should be gone into real deeply by the Town Attorney. There's no hardship up there. That property's been sold four times in the last nine or ten years. It's pretty obvious to me the reason they want this, and unless I'm wrong, they'll just have to go for a site plan review, that may be the answer, which means strictly a site plan review. If I want to put an addition on my house, for instance, I've got to go before four or five Boards to do that, where they can put this camp in there, with just a site plan review. I think this is the reason that it's so important to them that you decide in their favor, because if they have to go for a Use Variance, even if you decide against them, there's nothing saying they can't go for a Use Variance, but with a Use Variance, you'd have more control over them, and I think this is why it's so important that they do this, and I think that aspect should be looked into. Other than that, I think we'd want to remember that it is a Critical Environmental Area. We've heard tonight 525 members locally. There's nothing saying that many won't show up. Thank you. EVERTT VOORHIS MR. VOORHIS-Evertt Voorhis, upper Ridge Road, Glens Falls. In regard to the Woodmen of the World, from tonight, they have a - 36 - Fraternal Organization, or whatever. The neighbors are worried. They want to be a community type crew, adjust with the area, work together, family oriented, but there seems to be a lot of loopholes in regard to how many people, like 75 to 100 members, and then it's a family operation. So how many of the family members are going to show up with the 75 or 100, it could double up to 300, at an outing, for a picnic, or whatever. It doesn't designate if it's going to be for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week It could be possible. There's nothing in writing, in regard tö other functions that they have either. The amount of people is critical, the area and how many are going to be using that. Thank you very much. MR. TURNER-Okay. I'm going to leave the because we're going to get a determination the Town Attorney. I'll leave it open, and if they wish. public hearing open, from, an opinion from everybody can respond MR. COFFIN-I'd like the site plan review part explained to us, for the record. What happens if they're approved or allowed tonight? MR. MULLER-Okay. I'd like those in the audience that are opposed to the applicant's request for interpretation to understand that this is only the first stop. That is that we've tried to make a very narrow approach to the problem, to get an answer, because Mrs. Murphy's entitled to know, as an owner, does she have a contract, if it's a valid contract, or does she have a buyer that couldn't possibly use this property, move on and go find another buyer. If this Zoning Board, after it obtains the advice from counsel, makes a determination favorable to this application, I think then we sit squarely with what the neighbors are legitimately concerned about, and I'm not ready to make that presentation. That is that tonight is the first time I've heard that some people had a concern about Recreational Vehicles. I have a concern with it, in terms of being applicant, that is that I want a workable plan. So if I have a client that comes in and says that part of their Group Camp would be circus animals and twenty-four hour light show and all that. I mean, you've got to tone it down, or explain that it's not workable. I can't get to that spot until I have the first answer that, it fits within the Ordinance, Mr. Muller, but you're required to do a site plan review process. That's where I really think they want this to be, because the three choices on site plan will be, okay, as proposed; okay with conditions; no way. Okay, and so I'm struggling to make the narrow application for the interpretation, and I think that when we all put our heads together, we're going to find out that this Ordinance is not clear on this issue, and then all I ask is to be fair to Mrs. Murphy (lost word) not clear on the issue, construe it in favor of the property, and then put Woodmen of the World to the test, okay, that is that I tried not to mis-represent it. I don't completely understand Woodmen of the World. I'm not a member. They sell Life Insurance, and there are clearly organizations that sell things that also do not for profit benevolant and fraternal activities. So, as zoners, we're going to be concerned about what is the activity on site. We don't want to put a business there, and I hope you all know that when and if they have a Fraternal meeting, and it's like that schedule I gave you, and it's a bean dinner, that probably somebody's going to discuss insurance. Okay. I didn't see that happen at the meeting, but I don't think that's the task of zoners to worry about what people are talking about, a commercial speech. I think it's activities, and obviously if the sign goes up on the window, and it says that this is where you can buy, or satisfy your Life Insurance needs, or if they're having, I suppose, commercial conferences there, it probably ends up being a closer question, because it says there that you can have a conference center as part of a Group Camp, we'll have to address that issue, but it's properly before site plan. I'd just ask you to stick to the task, the narrow task of helping us out with a - 37 - legitimate, narrow interpretation of what this Ordinance means, and, you know, if it's favorable, we'll be back. I'm sure that it's not going to be an easy meeting. We're going to have to answer all those questions if they legitimately happen. Thank you. MR. TURNER-Any questions for Mr. Muller? Okay. No further comment from anybody? Do you want to make a comment? MR. BOVAIR-My name's Peter Bovair. I live on Lockhart Mountain, and I've been a member of Woodmen for over 20 years. My children are members. My wife's a member, and I sold Woodmen Insurance for two years, and I was an Insurance Salesman, so I got out. For one thing, they are not a company. They are a Fraternal Society, which you don't buy a policy. You buy a certificate, and as far as the lady said, somebody called somebody in this room, and they talked to them about insurance and all that. The person called me and asked me what we were all about, and I explained it to them, to be honest with you, and I didn't try to sell them anything. I just asked them if they would like to come to a meeting and see what it was all about. They were welcome. Anybody's welcome. We're not mean people. We're just ordinary people. I belong to the Boy Scouts. I just came back from West Point with the Boy Scouts. I went. My son went. There was about 8,000 other Scouts from allover the Country there, but, I mean, that's all we want. As far as L know there's not going to be any overnight parking. Nobody's ever discussed it. The only overnight thing there might be is our youth lodge might have a couple of tents and some of the kids stay there, but, I mean, as far as people being there 24 hours a day, no. That's not going to happen. I'm Vice President of the Lodge, and I'd vote that out myself, because I don't believe in that. We have our meeting. We have functions. We have a dinner, and all the things that people do. That's all. MR. TURNER-A Fraternal Organization, as fa)- as I'm concerned, is you go to the Lodge, you have your meeting, you go home. MR. BOVAIR-That's it, but they might want to stand around and shoot the breeze. MR. TURNER-No, I don't mean that, but you don't stay there overnight. MR. BOVAIR-No. We do not. Like I say, there may be a youth lodge, maybe once or twice a year, might stay, put a few tents or something, like kids do, like the Boy Scouts do. I slept in a tent in mud up to my ears, but that's Scouting, and another thing, as far as having a lodge per se, we have applied for an Adopt A Highway Program for two miles of Ridge Road up through there, and it will have our Lodge Number on it, 1015. It's not going to have 25 different Lodge numbers on it. It's going to have Lodge Number 1015. That's it. MR. TURNER-You said you sold insurance? MR. BOVAIR-For two years. Yes. MR. TURNER-Yes. Any commission? MR. BOVAIR-Yes. make a living. I got paid commission. Sure. That's how you MR. TURNER-I know. MR. BOVAIR-I mean, you've got Prudential right across the street from here that sells insurance. How many of you have got Prudential Insurance. MR. TURNER-I know. I'm just trying to establish something. - 38 - That's all. MR. BOVAIR-I mean, we have sales people, yes, but they don't go knocking on doors, no. They call like everybody else. I mean, these Prudential people call on the phone at night to people and ask them for appointments. That's all these people do. MR. TURNER-Where does Woodmen of the World divide their priority between being a member of the club and being a commercial operation, an Insurance Company? MR. BOVAIR-When you purchase a certificate through Woodmen, you actually own part of Woodmen. Part of that Lodge building will be. MR. TURNER-You're a stockholder. MR. BOVAIR-You'~e a stockholder, like, yes. MR. TURNER-Okay. MR. BOVAIR-Everybody owns Woodmen, the certificate owners, and you have Fraternal benefits that go along with it. MR. TURNER-All right. When you sell an insurance policy, where do the premiums go? Where do you send them to? MR. BOVAIR-The Woodmen home office, in Omaha, Nebraska. MR. TURNER-Okay. MR. BOVAIR-Just like Mutual of Omaha does. They send their money to Omaha, Nebraska. Woodmen of the World has the largest building in Omaha, Nebraska, 30 story, Woodmen Tower. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Lets say I wanted to join Woodmen, what would I have to do? MR. BOVAIR-You'd have to talk to one of the sales reps and take out an insurance certificate, and you would become a member. MR. CARVIN-You're going too fast. Okay. Take out an insurance certificate. How much insurance certificate, $10,000, $5,000? MR. BOVAIR-Whatever you want. There's no set amount. You're not forced to take $50,000 or $200,000. MR. CARVIN-But it's not an insurance policy. MR. BOVAIR-No. It's an insurance certificate. It's called a certificate, and it's written right on it, certificate. MR. CARVIN-Okay, but how do I cash it in? MR. BOVAIR-You die. ~1R . MENTER-Are we talking Life, here? MR. BOVAIR-No. If you want to cash it in, you can cash it in. You write the home office, talk to one of the Field Reps, and cash it in. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Well, knowing a little bit about insurance, there's Term, there's Whole Life, and then there's Endowments. Do you offer all three? MR. BOVAIR-Yes. MR. TURNER-Plus Annuities. - 39 - MR. BOVAIR-And Annuities. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Do I get a special Gold Card privilege if I buy a big policy? MRS. RAWLINS-No. There's no differentiation between that. When you're a member, you're a member, no matter what kind of policy you have. MR. CARVIN-Okay, but I can't be a member unless I buy a certificate. MR. BOVAIR-That's right, or if you buy an Annuity. You can get it through. MR. MARTIN-Just to get back to the focus here, though, it just doesn't sound to me like, to me, when I think of Camp, I think of a bunch of Boy Scouts sitting in front of their tents, roasting marshmallows in front of a fire, earning their merit badges. MR. MULLER-Jim, what do you think of when you think of Fraternal Lodge, that's what I need to know. MR. MARTIN-When I think of a Fraternal Lodge, I think of members sitting around a table planning membership functions or their next organizational function, their next fundraising function. The maybe conduct dinners there, or they maybe have outside cookouts. That, to me, is a Lodge. They may offer dinners at a reduced rate for their membership. They do charitable things. That, to me, is a Fraternal Lodge. It's not overnight camping. that's a camp. This, to me, is a Fraternal. MR. MULLER-Okay. I like his definition. percent. I want you to tell Paul Dusek defined, and that's what they want to do. I'll go with it 100 that that's what he MR. CARVIN-Okay, but I want to find out, you've indicated the family fraternity, and I'm just trying to figure out the family fraternity here. In your remarks, you indicate that there's 848,000 members, belonging to more than 3,000 local Lodges throughout the United States, all right. Now, let me ask you this. The 848,000 are all certificate holders, is that correct? MR. BOVAIR-That sure is. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Suppose I wanted to buy the insurance, but didn't want to be a member of a Lodge? MR. BOVAIR-You would be a member of a Lodge, but you're not obligated to attend anything. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Lets say I buy a policy, do not consider myself part of a Lodge, is there an ongoing fee, or, 20 years from now, am I still a member of a Lodge? MR. BOVAIR-Yes, well, you pay your dues. MRS. RAWLINS-You pay the You are paying for all brochure that she had. Lodge dues, which here is $15 a year. the benefits that are in that specific MR. CARVIN-Okay. $15? So, in other words, you bill 848,000 people MR. BOVAIR-No, we don't. MR. CARVIN-I'm just saying, the Woodmen do. MR. BOVAIR-You pay so much, yes, not only that, any time you are a member of Woodmen, you a)"e welcome at any Lodge throughout the, - 40 - wherever the Lodge is, in the States. MR. CARVIN-I'm just trying to get whether it's a business or it's a fraternity. MR. COFFIN-Is that on the record, what he just said? to make sure that part was on the record, that POSSlbility, now, of 848,000 people showing up next for a picnic. I just want there's a door to me MR. BOVAIR-Sure, it could happen, but I doubt it. MR. MENTER-I think the question was, if I buy a certificate, and I'm not interested in paying dues, does that work, or is the $15 part of the agreement to get the certificate? MRS. RAWLINS-The $15 gets you the Fraternal benefits, okay. That $15 goes to your local Lodge, okay. So anyone in this area that purchases ª certificate with Woodmen, that $15 goes back to the local Lodge to be used within the area for projects, whatever, but it's got to be used in this community. MR. MENTER-Do I need to pay? Do I need to receive Fraternal benefits to have the insurance, or the certificate? MRS. RAWLINS-Not necessarily. MR. MENTER-Okay. So I can have the insurance, and elect not to accept the Fraternal benefits? MRS. RAWLINS-You could have the insurance and elect not to have any Fraternal benefits. MR. MENTER-Okay. MR. CARVIN-Okay, but the certificate, it's not insurance, is what you're telling me. It's a ceritificate. MRS. RAWLINS-Well, it's insurance, but it's a certificate. We are not a commercial company. We are a Fraternal non for profit organization. There's a big difference. Okay, because we are member owned. MR. CARVIN-Okay, well, I'm just wondering if there's an ongoing premium. Lets say I have a $100,000 certificate, all right. Do I have to take a medical? Do I have to qualify for the certificate? MRS. RAWLINS-Yes, that, we are governed by New York State law. MR. MARTIN-See, I think what this does, Fred, is to offer a type of insurance policy that when conventional, like a Prudential or something, is they don't have the overhead cost, and they dodge it allows them compared to a cheaper because a lot of the. MR. CARVIN-But it's an ongoing premium thing. MR. MARTIN-Yes. MRS. RAWLINS-You can pay it one time, and if you want to pay $10,000 or $100,000, that may pay it up. MR. CARVIN-Okay, but that still does not make me a member of the Lodge, because I've got to pay another $15 every year. MRS. RAWLINS-Well, we would take it out of your refunds or some other place. MR. CARVIN-Do I have a choice? - 41 - MRS. RAWLINS-Yes, definitely. MR. CARVIN-Okay. So I guess I'm coming back to the 848,000. Are these all members, or are these just certificate holders? MRS. RAWLINS-Those are members. MR. CARVIN-Everyone of these guys pays $15? MRS. RAWLINS-It may differ by a quarter or fifty cents in other areas. MR. CARVIN-How many certificate holders would you feel that you have? It's got to be a higher number than this, I would assume. MRS. RAWLINS-Yes. I can get you that information. MR. MENTER-Do you sell va)-iable products also? MRS. RAWLINS-No. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Now you like a stock certificate. company? say that the certificate is sort of Is it actual stock? Is this a mutual MRS. RAWLINS-No, it's not. owned. It's a benefit society that's member MR. CARVIN-Okay. So there is no ready market. governed by SEC or anything like that. So it's not MRS. RAWLINS-It's not. We have to adhere to all the New York State Insurance Laws, like any other Insurance Company. MR. CARVIN-Right. You have to be a domiciled company in the State of New York. MRS. RAWLINS-Right. MR. CARVIN-And have your assets domiciled in a bank. Right. MRS. RAWLINS-I mean, if it would help, I would like to provide some more information, for everyone to read, and for these people, because obviously a lot of people are very confused about it, and that's understandable. MR. CARVIN-Well, if not for us, I think that if it does go to site plan, that you probably will need that information, because I have a feeling it will be brought up again. MR. BOVAIR-Well, I want to put in something that Jim said about the Boy Scouts earning merit badges. The Woodmen Youth Lodge, they do earn a merit badge. The children have their activities, like bicycling, and things like that, and my son has eight or ten merit badges, which is fine. I'm glad. I mean, what it does is get the parents involved with the kids. Here's the merit badges, Woodmen Rangers. MR. CARVIN-Do the kids have to pay? Is there a Junior Woodmen League, or something? MR. BOVAIR-Yes. The kids up to age 15 are in the Junior, there's a Rangers, what we call Rangers and Rangerettes. MR. MENTER-I think this is all pretty fascinating, but Mr. Muller is probably correct that the issue is narrower. MR. CARVIN-Yes. It's way off the issue. There's no doubt about that. - 42 - -- MR. TURNER-Okay. Anyone else? Okay. We'll leave the public hearing open, and we will notify Mr. Muller when the next meeting will be scheduled, in reference to this matter. MR. MULLER-Should Lou Rawlins, now that you've left this public hearing open, provide this Board and Mr. Dusek with the additional information that seems to clarify the species of entities? MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. MULLER-Okay. We'll do that, and we'll be notified when to come back? MR. TURNER-Yes, sir. MR. MULLER-Okay. MR. COFFIN-Will we be notified? MR. TURNER-We'll see that you're notified. MR. MARTIN-I just should put on the record, I explained to Ted, that the Town Board is also making available, if you would like, Mark Schachner to handle this for you, if you'd like. I just make that available to you. MR. TURNER-I thought we clarified that the last time when we talked here with Paul that we would use him as our lawyer. MR. CARVIN-Yes. I guess my feeling on the thing, Ted, is that, I think this is something that has to be thrashed out. I mean, I think we ought to get his input, but I think it's got to come from us. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. MENTER-Yes, at this point it does. MR. TURNER-Yes. I just want him to look at the legal points he raised, and see if there's anything, and once they provide the new information, maybe that might put a different scenario on it. MR. MENTER-Well, in my mind, the only thing it might do is clarify the separation in terminologies there. MR. CARVIN-Well, I think it's more than that. I think Jim has got some valid points, as far as a Camp. I mean, a Lodge is not necessarily a Camp. MR. TURNER-No. MR. MARTIN-See, if they were to come in here tonight and say, like this Youth Ranger thing. If they were to say this was going to be a special thing dedicated to our Youth Ranger activities, that, to me, would be different. That's a Group Camp, maybe. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. MARTIN-But if they're going to just conduct their regular business, because I think the reason why the Ordinance has these types of functions, or these uses in commercial zones is because, look at the traffic the Elks can attract. MR. CARVIN-Well, I think there's a significant difference between Fraternal Organizations that has to be addressed here, because I don't believe that the Elks is of the same Fraternal Organization as this group is. MR. MARTIN-Or if they were to say, well, the Boy Scouts are going - 43 - to turn this ball fields and they'll badges, then barn into their Lodge Hall, and also they'll have there for them and things, and camping activities, have facilities there for the to fulfill their merit I would have a different opinion of that. MR. CARVIN-Well, my point being, is that interpret what Fraternal Organization is, have to. I think we have and I think that to we MR. MENTER-Is there enough ambiguity in here to cover it? MR. CARVIN-Absolutely. I think so. is a Camp. It's a Camp, I mean, a Camp MR. MARTIN-Well, I think you have to read Camp. If you're going to read Group Camp, because it does refer to Camp. MR. CARVIN-Yes. It's got to refer to a Camp, and a Lodge is a Lodge, and that's why I wanted to point out a recreation center and Lodge, and I think that the Lodge is probably a more relevant stance than a Camp. MR. MARTIN-If the primary focus of this were overnight camping, tenting and that type of stuff, then I wouldn't have had a problem with it, but if they're just going to have a Lodge Hall there, then where are there any camp related activities? MR. MENTER-You're right, conceptually. MR. CARVIN-Because anybody, I guess, could say that they're a Fraternal Organization. MR. MARTIN-Well, I think, clearl)', in testimony you heard tonight, that the reason for them being a Fraternal Organization is they can sell a cheaper policy. MR. CARVIN-Well, it's like SBLI, or Art Linkletter Insurance there, or whatever. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. CARVIN-You tear it out of the center of the T.V. Guide and send it in and get $200,000 worth of insurance, fa,· only $9.95 a month. MR. MARTIN-Did you make a motion to table, Ted? you ever actually did. I don't think MR. TURNER-No, I didn't, but I will. MOTION TO TABLE NOTICE OF APPEAL NO. 1-94 WOODMEN OF THE WORLD, Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved for its adoption, seconded by Chris Thomas: For further information to be provided by the applicant and by OU," attorney. Duly adopted this 20th day of April, 1994, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Menter, Mr. Maresco, Mr. Carvin, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Tur ner NOES: NONE ABSENT: Miss Hauser, Mr. Karpeles On motion meeting was adjourned. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED, - 44 - Theodore Turner, Chairman