1994-08-24
/
o R ju , N A L
QUEENSBURY ZONJ.~~,BOARDO~ ~PPe:A. !-$
SECOND R~GUL~R 'MEETTNG .. I, ., . 1'.1, .. (It): ¡ ; :
AUGUST 24TH, 19941 i.~ ',: Wi " , It),' 'ì ; '¡'il.
INDEX : ¡ r . ¡ ,
Area Variance No. 36-1994 Robert Jr. & Sa ndr a~idYba ri >: 1.
Area Variance No. 42-1994 Roger & Barbara. Brassel 7.
,. "
Area Variance No. 43-1994 William A. & Dale Smith " 15.
Area Variance No. 44-1994 Joseph & Debra Gross 20.
THESE ARE NOT OFFICIALLY ADOPTED MINUTES AND;~~EI~6äJ~~ti1ö'BOARD
AND STAFF REVISIONS. REVISIONS WILL APPEAR ON THE FOLLOWING
MONTHS MINUTES (IF ANY) AND WILL STATE SUCH APÞ~b~~L Óþ1SAID
MINUTES.
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QUEENSBURY ZONING Bq~RDRF' ;!~PF¡l;~LS.!!;;
SECOND REGULAR MEET IN~;.. !.
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AUGUST 24TH. 1994 .
7=30 P.M.
MEMBERS PRESENT
THEODORE TURNER., CHAIRMAN
CHRIS THOMAS, SECRETARY
ROBERT KARPELES
FRED CARVIN
ANTHONY MARESCO
DAVID MENTER
EXECUTIVE DIRECT,OR-JAMES MARTIN
STENOGRAPHER-MARIA GAGLIARDI
OLD BUSINESS:
AREA VARIANCE NO. 36-1994 TYPE II SFR-1A ROBERT JR. & SANDRA
ORBAN OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE 9 HEINRICK STREET APPLICANTS
PROPOSE TO PLACE A TWO HUNDRED AND FORTY (240) SQUARE FOOT SHED
IN THE NORTHWEST CORNER OF THEIR BACKYARD. SECTION 179-20C
REQUIRES REAR AND SIDE YARD SETBACKS OF TWENTY (20) FEET.
APPLICANTS PROPOSE A SIDE YARD SETBACK OF TEN (10) FEET, AND A
REAR YARD SETBACK OF ZERO (0) FEET, SO SEEKS RELIEF OF TEN (10)
AND TWENTY (20) FEET RESPECTIVELY. SECTION 179-20D STIPULATES A
MAXIMUM OF TWO HUNDRED (200) SQUARE FEET FOR A SHED, SO
APPLICANTS SEEK FORTY (40) SQUARE FEET RELIEF. TAX MAP NO. 90-4-
112 LOT SIZE: 0.34 ACRES SECTION 179-20C. D
ROBERT ORBAN, JR., PRESENT
MR. THOMAS-"MQIION TO TABLE AREA VARIANCE NO. 36-1994 ROBERT JR.
& SANDRA ORBAN. Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved for its
adoption, seconded by Fred Carvin:
The applicant has requested to table the application. If the
applicant decides to go with a 100 square foot shed, that the
applicant submit a letter to the Planning Department withdrawing
the application for the variance.
Duly adopted this 20th day of July, 1994, by the following vote:
AYES: Mr. Maresco, Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Carvin, Mr. Thomas,
Mr. Turner
NOES: NONE
ABSENT: Mr. Menter"
STAFF INPUT
Notes from Staff, Area Variance No. 36-1994, Robert Jr. & Sandra
Orban, Meeting Date: August 24, 1994 "APPLICANT: Robert Jr.
and Sandra Orban Revised Notes: 8/22/94 PROJECT LOCATION: 9
Heinrick Street PROPOSED ACTION: Applicants propose to situate
a two hundred forty (240) square foot shed in their rear yard.
CONFORMANCE WITH ORDINANCE: Section 179-20D limits the size of
allowed sheds to 200 square feet, so applicant seeks relief of 40
square feet from this section. Because this property is in a
subdivision approved by the Planning Board prior to the current
Ordinance, it is subject to the 1967 setback requirements. which
were in effect at that time. This means a rear setback of 30
feet, and a side setback of 10 feet. Applicant is proposing a
rear setback of 5 feet, so seeks 25 feet relief. A side setback
of 10 feet requires no relief. REASON FOR VARIANCE REQUEST, AND
BENEFIT TO APPLICANT: Applicants believe there is a need for
this size shed, and that this is a location that would intrude
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less on their usable backyard space. FEASIBLE ALTERNATIVES:
Applicants have provided an alternative location, which would be
21 feet from the rear property line and 5 feet from the side
property line, requiring 9 feet relief to the rear, and 5 feet
relief on the side. IS THIS RELIEF SUBSTANTIAL?: The rear
setback relief is 84%. EFFECTS ON THE NEIGHBORHOOD OR COMMUNITY:
This revised plan is an improvement over the original, zero
setback, request, but may not be desirable from the neighbor's
viewpoint. IS THIS DIFFICULTY SELF-CREATED?: The size of the
shed and the choice of location could be perceived as self-
created difficulties, though a shed thirty (30) feet from the
rear property line would create an intrusion into the rear yard.
PARCEL HISTORY: The house was constructed in 1979. The property
was purchased by the applicant in 1990. STAFF COMMENTS AND
CONCERNS: No further comment. SEQR: Type II, no further action
required. "
MR. TURNER-Okay. Anything further to add to your application?
MR. ORBAN-Good evening. No. My name is Robert Edward Orban, Jr.
I think that the record shows that (lost word) is accurate. The
one thing I would like to add is I can see no real injury to any
party in building the shed at this location and this size. I can
only see the benefit, in that anything that would be placed in
the shed would, essentially~ be enclosed, and the finished
building is covered, and not having any aestheti~ intrusion, with
regard to any wood that would be piled and covered with a tarp,
or what have you, that might be left to be outside the shed at
some point. So I can see only benefit from the perspective of
myself as well as my neighbors. Whether there's a real or
perceived situation with any trouble with the property values of
the neighbors, I can't prove that one way or the other, but I
would tend to certainly feel that given the choice between a
finished, enclosed structure to store (lost word) versus having
something outside of the shed, I can't see that, aesthetically,
that having a shed would be anywhere worse than having it
outside, and the issue of the backyard is that, yes, if we move
it in to the setbacks as they exist now, that really puts it,
essentially, right outside the view of any of our backyard (lost
word) .
MR. TURNER-Well, your neighbor to the rear, there, was concerned
because I guess they have a vacant lot which they wish to sell at
some point in time, and they didn't, they weren't happy with the
setback that you had, zero, and they're not happy with the five
. foot setback.
MR. ORBAN-I understand that. but I don't understand their
particular reasoning. I can't see that a five foot setback.
MR. TURNER-Well, that's a pretty big shed, 240 square feet. It's
a good sized shed.
MR. ORBAN-The ten foot side would be facing that property, not
the twenty-four foot side, and once again, I can't see that
interfering with the sale of the property, as opposed to having a
smaller shed and having other things piled up on the site. I
could only think that that would actually be better.
MR. TURNER-So what are you going to store in it, besides wood
that your wife said the last time?
MR. ORBAN-All our. lawn and garden equipment, snow throwing
equipment, the kids riding tOYs, bicycles, things like that. I
have a growing family. A ten by ten shed is not necessarily
inappropriate right now. I could probably squeeze just about
everything in there. I don't know for sure I ~ould, but I know
that that's going to be a little bit smaller than we need in the
ensuing years. The plans that I have were drawn up by a neighbor
of mine. I've seen the use that he has of it. Essentially, they
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'~å~~l ~ifew móre thlrtgs.
MR. TURNER-Well, 'You'know;' you ~'(e allowed a 200 square foot shed
there anyway.
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¡ MR'~;I :ÖR8ANì...I'jw~s'ilrföit( 'Þ~eseht lasttLi!mê, and your discussion back
and forth seemed to be more oriented toward placement of a ten by
ten foot shed, without, as far as the five foot 'setback,
essentially, from,ithe1property.' I ¡ ¡,i: ,";:,
MR. TURNER-Yes, well the discussion was, and I raised the issue,
was the pre-approved subdivision having the rights of 1967 versus
the rights of 'today, and i n ~) estimation, t'liElY : !just . 'don't
cofifèspdrtd .i¡'¡]'úst because you live in a subdivision, it's my
feeling that you should mèetithe setbacks that are curr~nttoday,
not the setbacks that were current in '67, and that's the issue
that I raised, and we've talked to the Town Attorney, and we
can~t do anything about it Tight at this point, so it falls back
to 1967, your setbacks.
:MR. ORBAN-Tenifeet from the side.
MR. TURNER-Ten fèet from the side and thirty from the rear.'
MR" ORBAN-Understood. I'd seek relief from thàt 'Tear setback of
five feet" Also, as an example·, t'¡'é ex isti ng rules often times
come ,the t'imeséhange. I ·came from a house ,'that, was built, in
the ear!yturn of the century and it had one electrical outlet in
every room. Obviously, that was not appropriate for ,the use of
an electrical requireme~ts as th~y are today, ,and a ten by ten
shed may have bee~ fine when 'that was.
MR~ TURNER-A ten by ten is a big shed~ You'd be surprised what
you can get in it.' I've got one, ten by ten.
MR. ORBAN-I've looked at them. I'vè 'looked at different sizes,
and I1ve seen, essentially, the equivalent, what ·1,' would consider
eqùivalent.
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MR. TURNER-The only nice thing with a
it five feet from your rear line and
line. ' I .
ten by ten is you can put
five feet from your side
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MR. ORBAN-I underst'andthat , with no permit. .;
MR. TURNER-And no permit, and you could meet the setback with a
200 square foot shed. If you wanted to go with the '67, you'd
have'to seek a variance on'the 30 feet,· if you didn't want it up
30 feet. I don't think that belongs up 30 feet anyway. That's
inappropriate right now, with the size of the lot that you've
got, but I feel uncomfortable with it being fivE! feet fro~'the
rear line, very uncomfortable.
MR. CARVIN-Well, let mè ask you this; Mr. Orban.
proposed locations. This one looks to be 21 feet
We've got two
from the back.
MR. ORBAN~That's right. The~è ar~Jtrees~
MR. CARVIN-There's trees along this side is there?
MR. ORBAN-There are trees along both sides. There are tirees
along the, close to your property. In the alternative location,
essentially, that!':s about as close as I can ~et it on my property
therej without taking trees out, and I really don't want to do
that, and the reason that was chosen as an alternative location
is that's a littlè bit more of a noo~ in there, and the trees
actually do shelter that areaj but that property' line would be
farther (lost word). II
MR. TURNER-Which neighbor ·has the fence in the back?
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MR. ORBAN-There are no neighbors that have a fence directly along
the property line. There's one that meets the northeast,
northwest corner.
I
MR. TURNER-Northwest.comer.
MR. ORBAN-I can possibly accept a 10 foot setback, I think, as
opposed to a five. I don't think it would be aesthetic at all to
put that much closer to the house. I've looked into the size of
these sheds, and I've tried to plan a little bit for the future,
as well.
MR. TURNER-Anybody else have any thoughts or questions?
MR. KARPELES-How high is that shed going to be?
MR. ORBAN-The peak?
MR. KARPELES-Well, I was just wondering, in the alternate
location, the branches of those trees look pretty low. Would it
clear those, or would you have to cut those branches off?
MR. ORBAN-Honestly, I don't know. If I had to
bottom, once again, they're trees that grow on
wouldn't be awfully difficult to do. It
perhaps, 12 feet high, the peak of the roof,
less, liar 12 feet.
trim a few off the
my property. That
looks like it's,
maybe a little bit
MR. CARVIN-I'm looking at the two choices here.
that you have a preference over?
Is there one
MR. ORBAN-The one that's closest to the original location.
MR. CARVIN-The five foot setback.
MR. ORBAN-To take the alternate location and move that away from
the side property line more than five feet, I really can't do
that at all~ That puts it just about right out in front of our
back porch, or very close to it.
MR. CARVIN-Okay, and this will be used primarily for the storage
of wood?
MR. ORBAN-No. All lawn and garden equipment, toys, bicycles,
wood as well, anything, all those things, any (lost word) things
like that we really don't want in the garage with kids running
around.
MR. CARVIN-Well, is there any public hearing?
MR. TURNER-I'm going to open it. Okay. I'm going to re-open the
public hearing.
PUBLIC HEARING RE-OPENED
NO COMMENT
PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED
CORRESPONDENCE
MR. THOMAS-"Board of Zoning Appeals Town of Queensbury Robert
Jr. and Sandra Orban Area Variance No. 36-1994 As owner of 3
Heinrick Circle and therefore in the immediate vicinity of the
above mentioned persons property I submit that the variance
should not be granted. Most properties in the area exceed the
acreage requirements of the applicable zoning and both the side
and rear yard requirements seem very reasonable for the lot
sizes. Any closer structures will automatically intrude upon the
privacy of the neighbors. A structure of 240 sq. ft. is larger
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than many a living room ,and seems, way above ,what would be
normally n~qui red 'Tor a· shed holdi T'I!J' !garden tøøls, lawn mowers,
etc. The applicants requests for both exemptions should be
denied. If the Board should be convinced that the Orbans require
some relief perhaps it should specify that 'the structure be built
without permanent foundation, with a dirt floor and without water
and electricity hook-ups. Respectfully submitted, Holger
Nissen"
MR. TURNER-You're going to run electrical out there, probably.
MR. ORBAN-No. We have no plans to use that as a shop or facility
of any ki nd.
MR. TURNER-Okay. Any further qUestions of the applicant?·
MR. MENTER-I just have a comment. I'm not comfortablèwith the
size of it. I don't really see a need or a hardship that would,
or any reason why ¡it shou1d be' Over 200 square feet.' ,I mean, the
240 seems like a.
MR. ORBAN-My original decision on that was based on a neighbor
who had a shed (lost word). I can remove four feet from that
shed, if that's a problem.
MR. CARVIN-Wel~, I agree with Dave. I have a problem with the
size, well, the setback. If he lops off four foot, that's going
to be nine, and if he just adds another, put it ten foot off, I
guess I don't have a real problem putting it ten feet off the
back line. I don't think that~s abnormal, in other words, ten
from the side and ten from the rear. The property does have a
lot of trees. I noticed he does have a tree ~ouse in the center
of the lot and there's a swing set, and there's a lot of other,
you know, there is woods around it. I think if we bring it in 10
feet, that lot behind them is still vacant. It is only the 10
foot that;s going to be facing it.' I'think five foo~ is reälly
too close~ and looking throughout the'rest of the neighborhood, I
did not see a real number of other shedS. so I think that this
is sort of like the first one in the areå, and certainly the 240
square feet would be.
MR. ORBAN-I would invite you back out to take a close look. Two
neighbors right across the street each have a shed. One of the
fellows has a shed··,the 'size that the plans are here. My neighbor
immediately to the-Clost word) has a shed in his back yard. .
MR. TURNER-How long ago were they built, Mr. Orban?
MR. ORBAN-The sheds?
MR. TURNER-Yes, in the neighbors yard, across the to~d?
. ,
MR. ORBAN-I can't answer that question. They were
moved in, in 1990. There are many' sHader;
immediately, the next door neighbor.
there when I
~venJ ¡Fight,
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MR. CARVIN-Well, I didn't see too many. I'm not going to say I
didn't see any, but certainly, I made a' ·nob: ) REite,on 'my' t.ni ng
that there were no other sheds in the area, and the proposed was
going to be awful large, and like I said, I gue~~~iyofeè~irìª is
that if he can bring it in 10 feet off the back and 10 feet from
the side, and the 200 square foot· shed~ I don't have areal
problem with that.
MR. KARPELES-Well, l' like the smaller· size; but' I thi nk that the
alternate location is preferable. It's, as you say, it's tucked
back in the trees' over: there, and I think it's less obtrusive in
that loc~tion than it is back in the original location. I just
wonder why 'you þrefer the originalldcation?
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MR. ORBAN-It'sf~rther away from the house.
in the back yard there, and my neighbor
objection.
It's less obtrusive,
to the west .has no
MR. KARPELES~Well, over to the east, your neighbor has a fence
around his pool~
MR. ORBAN-That's correct.
MR. KARPELES-I don't know how many feet removed from the shed
that would be.
MR. ORBAN-I would estimate about 20 to 25, from the property
line.
MR. TURNER....Okay.
MR. ORBAN-I think it's out of everybody's way a little more in
the original location.
MR. KARPELES-Except it sticks out a lot more. I would
might be more objectionable to your neighbors there.
there's already a fence in the alternate location.
think it
As I say,
MR. ORBAN-It's further away from any house, in that first
location, than it is in the alternate location. It's actually a
little closer to our house as well as the neighbors house in the
altern~te location, that would be from any house (lost word).
MR. MARESCO-I think I'd echo Dave's thoughts, too. I'm a little
uncomfortable with the size of it, ~lso, and I'd like to see it
brought in 10 feet, too. I think the size of it bothers me.
MR. TURNER-It's a big shed, 240 square feet. It's almost a one
car garage.
MR. MARESCO-It's big.
the size of it also.
I know. I'm a little uncomfortable with
MR. TURNER-Well, he's agreed to downsize it to 200 square feet,
which he .c&n!have. Now all he need$ is relief. from ,th~ setback.
Yo.u're~sking ·towi thdr'a~ your cO)1sÜ::ler~~ion qfthe 240 sq~are
feet, and YOU'T'e gøi\,,\g "todownsi:ze it'200, as permitted?
MR!. ORBAN...,Right "j
..
MR. TURNER-Okay, 200's acceptable in size. Now all the issue is,
is setback.
MR. CARVIN-He has to have 30 feet, so he'd be looking at a
mlnlmum of, if he brought it in 10 feet, we'd be granting, what,
20 feet relief?
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. CARVIN-Now, isn't it 30 foot greater than what the current
is?
MR. TURNER-The current is 20 and 20.
MR. CARVIN-Is 20, and 20Jso, in ~ssence, .i:f we're looking at
today's standards, we're only .granting about 10 foot of relief.
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. CARVIN-Which really makes it a litt~e more palatable, 50
percent as opposed to 66.
MR. TURNER-Okay. Motion's in order.
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MOTION TO APPROVE AREA VARIANCE NO. 36-1994 ROBERT JR. & SANDRA
ORBAN, Introduced by'Fred Carvin who moved for its adoption,
seconded by David Menter:
The applicant was seeking relief from Se6tion 179~76B, which
deals with the square footage of a shed that he was' proposing to
situate on his property, which would have been in excess of the
200 square foot limitation of that Ordinance. The applicant has
agreed to construct his shed to within the 200 square foot
qualificationssMd is seek~ng relief from the 1967 setback
requirements which required a minimum of 30 feet; from his rear
property line, and setbacks of 10 feet from the side property
line. I would grant the applicant 20 'feet relief from the '1967
setback requirements. After extensive discussion and examination
of the property, because of the physical configuration of that
property, taking into consideration trees and other èxisting
physical characteristics, that placing the shed, this 200 square
foot shed, '10 feet froM the rear pfopert~ line and 10 feet from
the side property line would be the minimum relief 'necessary to
resolve this particular hardship. This relief would not be
considered substantièl if we were to look at the current setbacks
of today, which only require a 20 foot setback fro~ the rear
property line. So' in 'essence we are only granting roughly 50
percent relief from the current standards. By the applicant
agreeing to reduce the 'size of his shed, there would not be'any
éffects on the neighborhood or community. This difficulty does
not seem to be self-created because of the physical
characteristics 'of the ~ot, and this would be the minimum relief
necessary to eliminate this practical difficulty.
Duly adopted this 24th day of August, 1994, by the following
vote:! ;
AYES:
Turner
Mr. Maresco, Mr. Menter, ,Mr. Carvin, Mr. Thomas,' Mr.
NOES:' Mr; I 'Karpeles
NEW BUSINESS:
AREA VARIANCE NO~ 42-1994 TYPE II HC-1A ROGER & BARBARA
BRASSEL OWNER:· SAME AS ABOVE NORTHEAST CORNER OF BAY ROAD AND
CRONIN ROAD 'APPLICANT PROPOSES TO ELIMINATE THE 50 FOOT BUFFER
REQUIRED PURSUANT TO SECTION 179-23C WHEN A HIGHWAY COMMERCIAL
LOT IS ADJACENT TO A RESIDENTIAL ZONE. (WARREN'COUNTY PLANNING)
TAX MAP NO. 60-2-11 LOT SIZE: 7.70 ACRES SECTION 179-23C
JON LAPPER, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT
STAFF INPUT
¡,,)
" ,
Notes from Staff, Area Variance No. 42-1994, Roger and Barbara
Brassel, Meeting Date: August 24, 1994 "APPLICANT: Roger and
Barbara Brassel PROJECT LOCATION: northeast cornero'f Bay, 'and
Cronin Roads PROPOSED ACTION: Applicant owns a 7.7 acre Highway
Commercial parcel and proposes to eliminate the required buffer
between Highway Commercial and Residential zones. CONFORMANCE
WITH THE ORDINANCE: Section 179-23C requires that a fifty-foot
buffer zone be provided where a Commercial zone is adjacèntto a
residential zone. Applicant seeks relief from this Section.
REASON FOR VARIANCE· REQUEST, AND BENEFIT TO APPLICANT: Applicant
believes that the fifty-foot buffer is unnecessary, since the
land immediately adjacent to it has been designated a buffer area
as part of a residential site plan. Elimination of this
requirement would allow more room for development on the subject
parcel. FEASIBLE AlTERNATIVES: There is no develoþmeht plan for
this parcel at this time that indicates a particular problem if
this buffer zone is required. It seems, however, the buffer zone
along the west side may be unnecessary, as the strip 'of land
between this parcel and Bay Road is essentially unusable due to
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size, setbacks, and buffer requirements. The northern boundary
does abut a resid~ntial zone that has potential for development,
either under the currently approved Site Plan, or some other
future plan. It seems the applicant's request could be granted
on the west .side, while the buffer is mai ntai ned on the norther n
property line. IS THIS RELIEF SUBSTANTIAL?: The request is for
100% elimination of the buffer along the western and northern
property lines. EFFECTS ON THE NEIGHBORHOOD OR COMMUNITY: As
stated above, effects on the community by lack of a buffer to the
west would be minimal, while relief on the north side may not be
desirable. Buffer zones were purposely written into the setback
requirements for both residential and commercial zones where they
are adjacent. This creates a one hundred foot buffer zone, with
any burden shared equally by both sides. IS THIS DIFFICULTY
SELF-CREATED?: The difficulty on the west side is due to
configuration of the adjoining parcel, as it sits between the
subject parcel and Bay Road. The 'lot configuration' mentioned
in the application as. a difficulty is a direct result of a recent
subdivision of a larger parcel, which left this shape. Applicant
was made aware of the potential problems during the Planning
Board review pr·ocess, but the subdivision was completed anyway.
PARCEL HISTORY: A larger parcel was purchased August 4, 1988 by
the applicant. It was zoned HC-15 at that time. On August 16,
1988, the zoning became HC-1A. A subdivision of the parcel was
approved July, 1994, creating the subject 7.7 acre-lot. The
adjacent parcel was zoned Urban Residential 5-Acres under the
1982 zoning, Single Family Residential i-Acre in 1988, then
changed to Suburban Residen~ial i-Acre in 1993. STAFF COMMENTS:
It appears the applicant is attempting to maximize the
development area on the property, without having a specific
difficulty. SEQR: Type II, no further action required."
MR. THOMAS-"At a meeting of the Warren County Planning Board held
on the 10th day of August 1994, the above application for an Area
Variance to eliminate the 50' buffer required when a Highway
Commercial lot is adjacent to a residential zone, was reviewed,
and the following action, was taken. Recommendation to: No
County Impact II Signed by Thomas Haley, Chairperson.
MR. TURNER-Mr. Lapper.
MR. LAPPER-Good evening. Before I respond to some of the
comments mentioned by Staff, I just want to point out exactly
what the practical difficulty is and why we're asking for this
now.
MR. TURNER-Okay.
MR. LAPPER-To begin with, the configuration of the lots I
mentioned in the application doesn't have anything to do with the
parcel in back here which was subdivided. out last month for
another project. The configuration has to do with the fact that
this portion here is set back from Bay Road, although in the
resolution, which I'll read when I get back to my seat, with
respect to the golf course, this parcel here is always going to
be a buffer area. and this part here always has to be golf course,
because that's what they maintained when the Planning Board gave
them development rights to build single family residences
elsewhere. The resolution provides that this always has to be
maintained as golf course, as a space component of that project.
The practical difficulty, although we don't have a project right
now, Dr. and Barbara Brassel are negotiating to sell this for
development, and it was always envisioned, whether or not this
parcel was purchased, that there would be, because of the shape,
it was a nine acre parcel originally, that it can accommodate two
or three distinct buildings, and it's envisioned that there will
be one use here and one use here. In order to properly plan this
and design this, we would want to have one access on Bay Road,
and the best place for that access on Bay Road, which would be a
single access rather than multiple driveways, to eliminate the
- 8 -
,--,,'
number of curb cuts, the best place for 'that access is r 19ht
here ~ because this is the farthest poi nt from the 'cor ner of Bay
and Oroni n where you have people tur ni ng in and out·. So what we
would propose would be' ingress and egress· right here, no
additional curb c::uts on Cronin, 'and the Planning Board, the one
curb cut on Croni tI is r èOIÌ,¡I)gt6 bê geared: 'for I the office bui ldi ng
that was approved on this parcél,and the Planning Board
i na¡ulr"E¡id,'and·'wEf . Jew~\?~ed¡, ":bhat:; there i wOlHd be an easement for
vehicular and·' pedestr ian access here, '$0 that at all times,
regardless of how many people (lost word)· subdivrd~d again, so,
if it was three parcels, or whether it stayed as two, there would
only be two curb cuts, one on th~ parcel that was subdivided
here; and one right here. If the buffer is required, we wouldn't
·Jbe·able to ,put the driveway Here; becaUse with a 50 fooi buffer,
not only can't you have a building, but, you cån't 'have; any
pavement for parking or for access, and this seems to be the most
,appropr iate place to allow access to 'the; two parcels. In terms
of the Staff comme~ts mentioned that this was 100 percent, we
were asking for 100 percent· relief, and that's not exactly so,
because since this is a golf course, bdt a golf co~rse zoned
re~iden~ial, all along the eastern line, this would have to be 50
fobt also, and we are proposi~g to maintain thaSQ W~'~ê~êking
for relief just on the north side and on the west side, and on
the west side it seems really unnecessary, although it hurts this
p,'oject also, because it would require the 'dr iveway and then the
building to be set back. So that it would be a visibility issue
from Bay Road, and you're hot helping,you're not benefiting the
þ~~c~l irl-t~e middle. Arguably, this is too narrow a parcel for
any kind of a setback tê build anything, and in addition, the
Planning Board has ' sþ~cificallyrequired that nothing can be
built there. So we've got this nice field ~. :wHich is nice open
space, to maintain. There's no reason that the building should
be 50 feet back from' that open field. Nobody gains anything. It
reduces the development'area here, and you've· got a 50 foot
'buffer in the back 'here ~ . So it just 'reduces the development area
of the nine acre parc~l. Originally, the Upper Glens Falls
project is going to com¢ly with the buffer' here, and we
understand that.it will have to oomply with the buffer here on
the Brassel parcel along the east side, but just in terms of the
development envelope, it's really small ~ As' we,'re negotiating
with potential purchasers now, it's a practical difficulty now,
because people want to know, if they divide it, 'what they're
going to be able to', develop, and where the access '~s. Any
questions regarding that? '
MR. KARPELES-Yes. Why would it be preferable
entrance from Bay Road rather than Cronin Road?
Bay Road is a much busier road than Cronin Road.
to have the
I would think
'MR. LAPPER-Bay'Road is, can handle the traffic, because it has
the shoulders. It is busier, yes, but you'd want to encourage
the traffic to use· the major'thoroughfares rather than side
streets, just in terms of having a passing lane, because you've
got the wide shoulder. I've·,d·iscussed that in detail with Jim.
Perhaps he would comment, but we think, from a design standpoint,
that it's preferable to have it here, on the'main thoroughfare.
MR. TURNER-Yes.
wide.
Cronin Road's probably, at the most, 23 feet
¡ .
MR. LAPPER-Yes.
MR~ KARPELES-It~s because of the width of the lane, then?
MR. LAPPER-Yes.
MR. CARVIN-Is that portion of the golf course, is that just
fieldi or is that part of the golf oourse? Is there a tee area
or a driving area?
- 9 -
"-.-
MR. LAPPER-This here is field.
MR. TURNER-Yes.
I think he's talking about the one in the back.
MR. LAPPER-And this is part of the golf course.
MR. CARVIN-That is actual golf course, developed?
MR. LAPPER-Yes.
MR. TURNER-On the east side, you're talking about?
MR. MENTER-Not on the north?
ROGER BRASSEL
DR. BRASSEL-The golf course goes along here, does not involve
this, on the north, or this on the west.
MR. TURNER-Yes, but I think the question was, is there a field
between your boundary line and the fairway, over on that side, on
the east side?
MR. LAPPER~Over here? This is actually a fairways and there is,
there is a little bit of buffer, but we're going to maintain the
50 feet her.e, in any case.
MR. CARVIN-Yes, but on the Bay Road side" that section there,
there is no public?
MR. LAPPER-No. That is ju~t an open, narrow field.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. Has any thought been given to approach them to
maybe purchase that and just add it to that?
DR. BRASSEL-Yes. We've tried that over the years, and have not
been successful.
MR. CARVIN-Unsuccessful.
MR. KARPELES-Isn't there a structure in there now, a house?
MR. LAPPER-There~s a house that the Brassels own, which is
located right here where the access road is proposed to be.
MR. KARPELES-So that would be removed?
MR. LAPPER-That would be removed., It's zoned commercial,
Highway Commercial, and that's something that they're renting out
and when this is sold, that would be likely demolished. If I
could just read the part of the resolution attached to my
application, approving the Bay Meadows plaza, "the Golf Course
area shall not be further developed by additional commercial or
residential buildings, except for those that were (lost word)
Golf Course facilities, and the Golf Course shall be permanently
retained as open space." That's why we don't feel that we're
impacting, in terms of the intention of the setback, the 50 foot
setback, there won't be a residence on the other side of the
property line that will be impacted. It's really, just like a
technical i ty.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. Could I interpret from that motion, however,
that no buildings can go in there, but, and I really" don't have
the measurements, but I mean is it conceivable that there would
be public access in there?" Could they put a tee area, for
example, in that corner?
MR. LAPPER-In here?
MR. CARVIN,...Yes.
- 10 -
'--
'-""
DR. BRASSEL-I don't believe so.
MR. MARTIN-I'm not a'golfcoùrse design person.
what types of dimension they would need.
I -don't know
MR. MENTER-I think the question is what £gfi they do with it?
MR. TURNER-It's pretty close to the road.
MR. BRASSEL-This dimension here is 125 feet. They'd have to be
pretty good golfers. '
MR. LAPPER-I think that's fairly unlikely, and impractiêai.
MR. MENTER-What is the restriction that they have on that piece,
as well as the piece adjoining the north of your property?
MR. LAPPER-The golf course shall not be further developed by
additional commercial or residential buildings, except for those
that were,·( lost word,) the golf course.
MR. TURNER-Dave, I what happened is the golf course came in for a
major 91 housing unit development on the other side of the
Clubhouse, as You- go· uþ jCronin Road to the ~ast. Well, aspart
of that condition, allowing that to go In, the Town' Board
stipulated that there'd be no further development, but, along the
same line, there's nothing to say that if that doesn't happen,
that the~ can't come back and ask that to get changed.
MR. LAPPER-I guess, I recognize that. I will concede that, but I
would argue that there's no way that anything's ¡ ever going to
happen inhere.
MR. TURNER-I agree with you.
MR. LAPPER-This is the þart that's most important'to us because
of the visibility issue and the access issue.
MR. KARPELES-Could you go over, again, what's on the 'north side?
MR. LAPPER-This, is part, of the Golf Course property.
MR. KARPELES-And that is aètually being used now as a fairway?
MR. LAPPER-No.
MR. MENTER-How far is it from that property line where that,
because I know that that one hole swings out t6waid: the road.
The green is toward'thel road. to the north of your·propertÿ.
DR. BRASSEL-Down here?
MR. MENTER-Yes.
DR. BRASSEL-I can't give you that information off the top of my
head, but there's nothing there.
;;1
MR. MENTER-Am I wrong, isn't ,there green that is just off Bay
Road, down, further north from yoùr piece?
DR. BRASSEL-That's further north. That's way, way past us.
MR. MENTER-So the size of the unused piece in there.
MR. MARTIN-Remember,
marina supply store,
there's that green.
area.
Dave,! think there's a house, Lupo's old
and then there's another house, and then
It's like a dog leg that goes around this
DR. BRASSEL-You're absolutely right. The depth here' is 125 feet,
- 11 -
~
which makes it shallow for any lot (lost word).
MR. KARPELES-What is north of this?
DR. BRASSEL-Field, an undeveloped field.
MR. LAPPER-For some period. There is, ultimatelYf golf courses
there, but not on the adjacent back lot.
MR. MARESCO-That's owned by,the Golf Course. That's Golf Course
property there.
MR. LAPPER-That.'s ' all part of the Golf Course property. I can't
be further built.
DR. BRASSEL-This
the land, when
directly across
acre, because we
it.
is HC-1A zoning. We had thoµght, when we bought
the zoning plan was re-vamped, (lost word)
the road, we didn't object to the zoning, SR-l
thought this was HC-1A and could not be part of
MR. TURNER-Yes, but in that SR-l acre, you've got Moon's old
house, which you own now. Then you've got St. John's house.
DR. BRASSEL-No. Moon's house is here.
MR. TURNER-All right. Well, then you've got St. John's.
DR. BRASSEL-St. John's house is further.
MR. TURNER-Down there?
Okay.
DR. BRASSEL-That's all
feet more, then St.
Course.
(lost word) here, then, p~qbably 2eO, 300
John's, then Lupo's, and then the Golf
; i'I:.
MR. TURNER-Anything further? Are you: going. to; ;answer, the
comments that Staff raised? You wanted to show us a map first.
Do you have any observation as to what they say?
,MR. LAPPER-I think I covered a lot of that in the extraneous
discussion.
MR. TURNER-You did cover some of it.
MR. ,LAPPER-I guess, just, I want to reiterate, i1;'l terms of the
self-created, that it doesn't, the fact that we didn't subdivide
the two acre parcel doesn't effect this request, because there
would also be the parcel, north and south of where the entrance
drive is proposed. I think that about covers it.
DR. BRASSEL-We would be here tonight, even without the
subdivision to the south side, because I did not realize that
th&t was SR~lA, because on the maps I have, which are still, I
think, indicated HC-1A, all the parcels along Bay Road.
MR. LAPPER-What Dr. Brassel is saying that he didn't understand
at the time.
MR. .TURNER-That str ip that's in there.
MR. LAPPER-Yes, that the defacto rezoning of that to SR-1A would
mean that he would have to have a 50 foot buffer in the front
there, or he would have been involved in that process when it was
rezoned.
DR. BRASSEL-Well, .even more. than that, it was indicated. (lost
word). The westerly portion, all along the west line there was
zoned HC-1A.
- 12 -
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-../
MR. TURNER-Yes.
DR. BRASSEL-And I was not info~~ed there was a proposal to rezone
that to SR-1A.
MR. TURNER-Are you saying you didn't get notice when they rezoned
that property, is that what you're saying?
DR. BRASSEL-I didn't get notice that that . portion was to be
rezonédSR-1A. That's correct. It was zoned from SR-5acr~~ to
SR-l acre, but that was HC-1A up in there.
MR. LAPPER~Perhaps, if he had been involved in the Þrooess, that
might not have been rezoned, because there's really no reason for
it to be Single Family, because you can't use it to build as
residences anyway, but ,tha.t's moot at this point, because it was
rezoned.
MR. MARTIN-I think~' given the number of units, though, they
wanted to develop for the housing project, in order to claim the
density, they needed every square foot that they could soak up of
their property, and that's why they took that.
MR. LAPPER-That makes sense.
MR. TURNER-Does anyone else have any questions?
anything further to add?
Do you have
MR. LAPPER-No, sir.
MR. TURNER-Okay. Let me open the public hearing.
PUBLIC HE~RING ,OPENËD
NO COMMENT
PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED
MR. TURNER-Okay. Any further discussion?
MR. KARPËLES-I wonder if the Staff could elaborate on why they
feel that it would be better if we maintained a buffer zone on
the north side. Why is that, as opposed to maintaining it as
residential?
MR. MARTIN-I did not write the notes, but I would suspect that
the reason is that.
MR.· TURNER-Residential.
MR. MARTIN-Well, and there's more of a useable area there. We
can see the 125 foot as a pretty narrow alley running th~ough
there, but that's more of a useable area there to the north.
Like Ted says, if, for whatever reason, that plan were to
collapse, and the z6ning were to revert back to what it was,
you'd have a useable piece there again.
MR. TURNER-Yes. I have a problem with giving them the buffer on
the north. I don't have a problem with giving them the buffer on
the west, because, again, any use there is going to be Highway
Commercial, eventually.
MR. CARVIN-Well, I don't have a problem reducin~ the bùffer from
50 down to say, 10 feet or so, but I'd ha~e to ~ose it all, and
I'd like to see some kind of plan. I mean, if that's going to be
an access in there, I mean, certainly, I don't have a problem
with this 50 foot here, because I understand what you're saying,
as far as the access, but I just hate to 9Ò to a zero buffer
here, at this point, without knowing what's going in here.
- 13 -
'"-'"
MR. TURNER-Well, they've got to go 50, residential would have to
go the 50 on that side, wouldn't they, Jim?
MR. MARTIN-Yes.
MR. TURNER-So that creates a 100 foot buffer instead of a 50 foot
buffer.
MR. MARTIN~And remember, buffer refers to a no disturb area.
MR. TURNER-Right.
MR. MARTIN-The building setbacks are still in place. You're not
going to have buildings right on the lot line.
MR. LAPPER-Yes. Regardless of, even if we don't have the buffer,
we still have the 20 foot building setback.
MR. MARTIN-So if yoU take away the buffer, it allows them to
maybe put in a driveway or parking lot, but the buildings are
still subject to the setback of the Highway Commercial zone.
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. CARVIN~All rigbt. As: long .as .that's not "8 !'rea:!. problem" by
where they put abuilding right on the line.
MR. MARTIN-No. That would not be permitted.
MR. CARVIN~Then I agree with Ted. I think that ~ one should
remain, the northern.
MR. TURNER-Yes, but the development that might happen
road, passarel,li,'s property, that's going to be doctor's
and professional buildings in the front, and you can
scenario just creeping Bay Road, for everything that's
Highway Commercial.
up the
offices
see the
kind of
MR. MARTIN-I think the master plan clearly had in mind office
development and that type of thing along ,the frontage along Bay
Road, given the way the MR~5 district reads. for that area.
MR. MARESCO-That buffer, flOW, is that trees along that?
MR. LAPPER-No, it's a field.
MR. TURNER-No, it's just a field, just a plain old hay field.
MR. MARESCO-Personally, I'd like to see some buffer left. I'd
like to see something there~
MR. TURNER-See, Tony, the residential has to provide a 50 foot.
MR. MARESCO-This is 125 feet from here to here.
MR. TURNER-Yes, and then the residential has to provide 50 foot
property between their property in the back and the Highway
Commercial, iD.:the back., so you've got a ·100 foot buffer:.,' $0 what
you're doing is 'reduci t"Igthe 125 feet. to, 75 feet of:useaþle;·area
. in the front. ';
¡ ;"¡, \' ,
MR~ MENTER~I:have no problem at all with the west side.
.' j'¡ .;: ¡
MR. TURNER-No, I.don't either.
j ,
MR. MENTER-I think that it's only logical, and, the north,
because.
,.
MR. TURNER-It's just a matter of time before it's going to
happen.
- 14 -
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-.-/
MR. MENTER-Yes, and I think the north,' ;you know, without a
specific plan, on either side, I d0n~t know thaC that's something
that there's much of a hardship for, Number One.
MR. LAPPER-We'd be satisfied with the west. That's what's most
important to the projebt.
MR. TURNER-Well, it'll certainly give you the most relief in that
direction anyway, and that's where you're 'headed for.
MR. LAPPER-Absolutely.
MR. MENTER-Yes.
Rel ief on the north side' would be' ,jûstbecause .
MR. LAPPER-I guess I'd say that we might want to reserve our
right to come back with a different'application, if we had a
building or something, and at some point the Golf 'Course were
redeveloped, it was clear that there were residences elsewhere,
but at this point, if the Board is cómfo~table giving us just on
the west side, that's what's most important to the applicant, and
we could live with that.
MR. TURNER-Anyone else? Okay. Motion's in order.
MOTION TO APPROVE AREA VARIANCE NO. 42-1994 ROGER & eARBARA
BRASSEL, Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved for its
adoption, seconded by Chris Thomas:
This relates to the property on the northeast corner of Bay and
'Cronin Roads. The app~icant owns 7.7 acres of Highway Commercial
parcel and proposes to eliminate the buffer zone between Highway
Commercial and the Residential zone. The Board will grant the
relief from the 50 foot buffer requirement, Section 179-23C, on
the west propertyiline" only. The northern boundary line, buffer
zone will remain intact at this time. The trend of the Bay Road
area is headed for the Highway Commercial parcels along that
road, and the master plan has realized that that is inevitable.
This would allow the applicant, on the west side, ingress and
egress i~to the buffered area on the Wést side, and which there
is a stipulation already that they are allowed only one curb cut
to that parcel, and would allow for more reasonable development
of the described parcel. Yes, the request is for substantial
reI ief, buc, by the same to,ken, the 125 foot parcel that's in the
front on the west side, also requires a 50 foot buffer between
residential and commercial, thereby reducing the usable space on
that lot from 125 feet to 75 feet. There's no effect on the
community by the lack of the buffer to the west, and this is the
minimum relief to alleviate the specified practical difficulty.
Duly adopted this 24th day of August; 1994, by the following
vote:
AYES: Mr. Maresco, Mr. Menter, Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Carvin,
Mr. Thomas, Mr. Turner
NOES: NONE
AREA VARIANCE NO. 43-1994 TYPE II SR-IA WILLIAM A. & DALE
SMITH OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE WEST MOUNTAIN ROAD, APPRÖX. 500 FT.
PAST CLENDON BROOK ROAD ON WEST SIDE APPLICANT PROPOSES TO BUILD
A SINGLE FAMILY DWELLING FIFTY (50) FEET FROM A STREAM. SECTION
179-60 REQUIRES ASËVENTY-FIVE;(75), FOOT;SETBACKFROM ANY
SHORELINE. (ADIRONDACK PARK AGENCY) (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING)
8/10/94 LOT SIZE: 1.95 ACRES SECTION 179-60 "
DALE SMITH, PRESENT
STAFF INPUT
Notes from Staff, Area Variance No. 43-1994, William A. & Dale
- 15 -
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Smith, Meeting Date: August 24~ 1994 "APPLICANT: William A.
and Dale A. Smith PROJECT LOCATION: West Mountain Road
PROPOSED ACTION: Applicant proposes to construct a single-family
home within the required shoreline setback. CONFORMANCE WITH THE
ORDINANCE: Section 179-60 requires a setback of seventy-five
(75) feet adjacent to the shoreline of a stream. REASON FOR
VARIANCE REQUEST, AND BENEFIT TO APPLICANT: The bL\ildable area
on the property is limited. If the variance is granted, the
applicant will be able to build his house. FEASIBLE
ALTERNATIVES: There do not appear to be any feasible
alternatives for house location. The property contains an APA
flagged wetland which limits its use. Locating ~he deck on the
north side of the house, or decreasing the size of the deck could
,reduce the amount of relief needed. IS THIS RELIEF SUBSTANTIAL?:
Applicant is asking 33% relief from this requirement. EFFECTS ON
THE NEIGHBORHOOD OR COMMUNITY: It does not appear there would be
adverse effects on the community. No comment has been received
to date. IS THIS DIFFICULTY SELF-CREATED?: It seems the problem
lies with trying to put a house on a site that has significant
physical restrictions. PARCEL HISTORY: This parcel was part of
a subdivisioDapplication reviewed in the Spring of 1992. The
subdivision was approved, ,with conditions, but there is no copy
of the subdivision map, signed by the Planning Board. Chairman, in
the subdivision filed. Staff will review the Warren county Tax
Map Office files to see whether a signed map was filed. A
similar variance request was granted November 18, 1992. At that
time, the deck was not shown, and the house was 50 feet from the
stream. A narrow strip of land across the front of the property,
indicated as the "new" property line, is dependent on a transfer
of land from Warren County Highway Department to the applicant.
A call to Roger Gebo at Warren County Highway on August ,23, 1994
showed that this transfer has not taken place. Maps have been
provided to the applicant by Leon Steves to take to the County,
but Mr. Gebo has not received them, as yet. Mr. Gebo estimated
that the .approval process for this land exchange would take
approximately three months, once the maps are received. STAFF
COMMENTS AND CONCERNS: Considering that the lot size information
submitted by the applicant is not correc~, or at least not until
acted upon by the County, it does not appear the Board could
grant the specific relief required by this application. This
application could be tabled, or withdrawn,. until this situation
is clear, or it could be considered based on the lot size minus
the front strip, which is reflected on the February 24, 1993
subdivision application map (attached). Siting the septic system
must also be considered. It is also noted that the driveway
configuration, currently on the site does.not seem to match the
driveway shown on the application map. A copy of the maps
submitted for the subdivision review and the previous variance
are attached for reference. . SEQR: Type II, no further action
required. "
MR. THOMAS-"At a meeting of the Warren County Planning Board,
held on the 10th day of August 1994, the above application for an
Area Variance to construct a single family home was reviewed and
the following action was taken. Recommendation to: No County
Impact II Signed by Thomas Haley, Chairperson
MR. TURNER-Okay.
subdivision map?
Mr. Smith. Okay. What's the word
Jim, do yoU know anything about it?
on the
MR. MARTIN-We're looking to see if
haven't completed that review yet.
don't have a signed copy.
the county has got it. We
It's very unusual that we
MR. TURNER-This subdivision was created by, what, a resolution of
the Town Board, dividing this property, because he had one lot,
and he had to have double the lot width, and didn't the Town go
to a two lot subdivision with the one curb cut?
MR. MARTIN-Right.
Yes, if you have one curb cut then that
- 16 -
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'--"
removes the ~eed fci~ double the lot'width.
.. ;"il
MR. TURNER-Yes. Right.
~ ! "¡ !
, ,
MR. MARTIN-Is this in the APA?
¡,'¡i';
MR. TURNER-The' backi1of; it .is, in ¡thê"wet.I!eìnds~' ;',1
'"it'i':
"." ;
,;"",,'
"MR~, ,"MARTIN-Yes.' It wouldn't
two lot subdivision clause.
Planning Board. This predates
bit before ~ time.
have been eligible, then, for the
'It would have had ,to ~ö td,'the
my; Spring of '92, that's a little
'MR L :iTllJRNËR-Yes.
àböût ii t, but I
weren't here.
Wè1il,' II know
don't think,
about it, and
do 'YOU know
I· thi nk
about it,
~; ¡ I
~ i
it" ¡>í
yoU know
no, you
" ¡
MR. THOMAS-Yes, I was. Hè~Ø'sthe re~ol~tidn f1Qht,here.
MR. TURNER-Okay. That's'r ight. ¡ ¡1'(iou we)~e here. Mr . Smith , I
think, I know'you want to build a house, but where are-you, as
far as getting started, to get this through? If this doesn't go
through" at, this:, poi nt in time, what's" your time' frame for
starting the house?
MR. SMITH~I'd like to start it at least by the end of September.
MR. TURNER-The County~s not going to give you any answer for
three months.
MR. MARTIN-The obvious thi ng is, if
front of the house, then he can
potentially meet the stream setback.
he gets that extra land in
move the house forward and
MR. TURNER-Come forward, and, then you might be out of that
, . $cenar io .
i_/~:-:
: 1'1 "',i, ,I
MR. KARPELES-Well, there's a real steep bank there. Can you move
that house any closer?
MR. TURNER-He's filled that all in.
MR. CARVIN....He ',s filled that in. That"s always been ~ question.
I mean, there's a ton of fill, there, several ton.
MR. KARPELES-It looks to me like there~s just about enough room
to build the house, without moving any closer.
MR. TURNER-Yes. Well, you know, again, if he gets that front
strip, he could come forward, from the County. That strip right
here that's shaded down, the County owns that. If he gets that,
he can come.
MR. KARPELES~But that's all fill, isn't it?
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR.' CARVIN-The fill starts back in here, about where the house is
going to be sitting, somewhere in here. See, the problem with
this, this is all APA up in here, and there's wetlands through
here. I think we've seen this before.
MR. KARPELES-What level is the house going to be? Is it going to
be on the lower level or the upper level?
MR. CARVIN-The upper level.
MR. KARPELES-The Upper level.
MR. SMITH-Whab they're going to do is put a fóur foot frost wall,
- 17 -
'- -
and then fill the four foot frost wall and put a basement on top
of that.
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. CARVIN-This has been going on for, what, at least two or
three years, anyway, that I.
MR. TURNER-Three years.
MR. CARVIN-I guess ~ feeling is that if it's been going on ;that
long, I'd like to make sure that all the ducks are in a row, as
far as the County is concerned.
MR. TURNER-Yes, I would. Maybe something will happen, you won't
get that land from the County.
MR. MARTIN-I think the first immediate concern is to make sure
that the subdivision is lawful, and that it's signed,:, that's the
first concern, and then the Board can decide what you want to do
about that land in the front, but that's the first thing, is to
make sure we have a lawfully created lot.
MR. TURNER-Okay, well"I guess with that in mind, we should table
the application until that is found out.
MR. MARTIN-Haue you made provisions, now, to file the map with
the County and get that process formally started?
MR. SMITH-I thought that was going to be done by, I filed
something with the County.
MR. MARTIN-Because we talked to Roger Gebo just yesterday, and he
says he's got nothing yet, and he won't start until he receives
something.
MR. SMITH-Are you talking about the maps for the?
i!
MR. MARTIN-Yes, for the 175 foot front piece there.
MR. SMITH-I've got maps from Leon Steves. I took them up and I
gave them to the Secretary up there. The beginning of this week,
I got a call from a Mr. Van Dusen, and he said the maps had to be
redone because the subdivision line wasn't put on the map. So
now I'm in the process of trying to take care of that.
MR~ MARTIN-Okay.
MR. SMITH-See, originally when the County was asked about this,
it was all one lot. So they didn't show the subdivision line in
that map. Roger Gebo said that he didn't, when I called him,
back when I submitted this variance, he said he hadn't received
any maps yet from VanDusen and Steves. So I went to VanDusen and
Steves, at that time, and I personally took them to the County
Office Building.
MR. MARTIN-The County Office Building?
MR. SMITH-The Highway Department.
MR. MARTIN-Up in Warrensburg?
MR. SMITH-Right.
MR. MARTIN-Okay;
MR. TURNER-Sathe other thing, then, we've got to wait for that
decision. Then you've got to also find out if this is a legal
lot of record, see if this is filed at the County. The
subdivision has to be filed at the County.
- 18 -
~ --'"
MR. SMITH-I believe L took that. I took, something up there and I
had it filed.
MR. MARTIN-After the Planning Board approved it?
MR. SMITH-Yes.
MR. MARTIN-Well, that's what we're going to investigate and make
sure it's the case.
MR. MENTER-You need both issues resolved in order to go anywhere
with it.
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. MARTIN-The one you need for sure. The second one, then, is
the discretion of the Board, how you want to proceed.
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. CARVIN-I don't see why we can't table this for four months or
five months.
MR. MENTER-Could we discuss our intention, regarding:the second
issue, just to give the applicant an idea of where our thoughts
are with it? Because we can come up with a legal subdivision, he
could be back here next month, and it's not going to do any good,
it doesn't seem to me, unless we have more information on· the
front property.
MR. TURNER-Well, you know, according to the letter here~ it's
going to be three months before they act on it.
MR. MENTER-What I'm trying to say is I think, from the Board's
standpoint, we would want to know what, that that transaction
happened with the County before we did anything.
MR. MARTIN-If you get that strip of land from the County, can you
move that house forward, so that you meêtthe 75 foot,setback?
MR. SMITH-I don't believe thêre'd ¡be enough room for the seÞtic
and everything, in therê, because the septic has to go right in
that hole, because it'has to be on virgin soil, and that's what
the problem is.
MR. TURNER-Well, I'd like to give you about four months, if
they're not going to act on it for three, and we're almost into
September now. That gets you back here, probably, in November.
MR. SMITH-I was under the impression that this was all done with
the County.
MR. MARTIN-Well, he's saying right now, you just said that even
if yOU ~et thàt property from the County, yo~ ca~'t move the
house any farther forward.
MR. SMITH-I don't believe so, becausé the 'septic has to go right
where it's pictured, because that's the virgin soil. According
to the APA, that's the only place they'll lêt it be.
MR. MARTIN-Are they realizing that by, them doing that, that's
pinning the house 25 feet closer to this stream?
MR. SMITH-Yes. When I talked to them about that, they said that
as long as the Town didn't care, they didn't care. I rêðlly
don't see what the problem is. I mean, we did have a variance.
The only reason why I'm here is because it ran out, and I didn't
realize I had to renew this thing after a year. If I had renéwed
it, I would have been able to go right ahead and start my homè.
- 19 -
-
MR .,,,;1i,,=,,R~ER,-:'Y,ou! 'mig.nt. not "have been, unl~ss, they" ,get, ,that
- stµ!;>ql v 1$,10,n 1 m&R., ,'f;ou.:! hadn ,t go,t; ten, ~ iP~p~m~t for - ~ t¡", ,That's
gOl ng tR :1.h91d Y:?U ,4P., It ha~, to be ,f .i;le~ in _ the :Co~nty.
1-1 ': .:i . i ; ::.., ,'j,\ '\.,,! , ¡
MR. SMLi1iH~'l],d~ftow' [L,:f 1led,samethi ng' on,'ohe !$ubdÍ'vis ion. ,I
it was the: ,A¡:¡>A ,papers ¡]"f i,<.l:ed. I knowl that.. i I know'lbhat' I·
that with them, and I'm not sure if the subdivision map was
to be filed by VanDusen and Steves. Would they normally do
.think
filed
going
that?
MR. MARTIN-Yes. It depends on their relationship Iwi th:, their
individual client. They usually do. Sometimes they don't. I've
heard it where they do do.. it, and I 've hea~·d ,where the
individuals';t.hèmsë·}¡~és do it. So I really couldn't tell you.
¡ .';! "¡(';r-'j !() :"'I~ìl..J;
! 1""'(' Ii
.'. I
1 ,
MR. SMITH-Nothi ng was ever said to me, about f i.lJ tIrlQI!th$' map,... i So
I'm not sure if I filed the map.
MR. MARTIN-I'll talk to Leon about this. He's usually
pretty good ,memory about these things and has pretty
records, and we can trace down what hapþened and why.
got a
good
MR. TURNER-Well,:':agai n~ ¡ itJhink'iwe <Dughtf1tJoitJabla,i:t· ;unt\Ìj1lwecan
get the necessary information, and!if it comes sooner, we'll get
'rou on sooner. That's all.
: Ii
MR. SMITH-Okay. So, what you're waiting on is?
MR. MARTIN-Well, we ban certainly answer the su~division question
by September.
, i;';:'¡ . (,i,·': :; :'; r,J~J'~--1 (:~.t ~I f
MR. TURNER-Yes., We can get that done
COUt1t)1i,wè f don' t 'kno~V¡yet ~ ,¡;Sd if they
they say, yes, you can have it, okay,
October, we'll, get you on.
with, but as far as the
speed up the process and
and it happens;Sèþtember,
MR. MARTIN·You,miSht want to speak to ,Roger Gebo directly about
your specificsitwation here.
MR., ·T:URNEJR'-Mayl::Je you dati þÛltà burr 'under his saddle and get him
going.
MR. SMITH-Okay.
'MR:: TURNER--All right. So I'll move to table.
MOTION,TO TABLE AREA VARIANCE NO.
SM¡TH, Introduced by Theodore Turner
s~conded by:FredCárvin:
43~1994 WILLIAM A. & DALE
who moved for its adoption,
I'Y; i '}I
,1_: I:
!ï;irH1' ,
Until no later than the month of December meeting of the Zoning
Board of Appeals. We have to! have :the information from the
County as to that piece of property land the subdivision, the
filing of that subdivision.
Duly adopted this 24th day of August, 1994, by the following
vote:
MR. TURNER-If the irifdfmation comesi~ooner,we'll get you on the
agenda.
AYES: Mr. Menter; Mr. KarÞeles~ Mr. Carvin~ Mr. Thomas,
Mr. Maresco, Mr. Turner
NOES: NONE
AREA VARIANCE NO. 44-1994 TYPE II WR-1A JOSEPH & DEBRA GROSS
OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE END OF BIG BAY ROAD, 3RD HOUSE ON THE
RIVER:' APPLICANT PROPOSES TO 'CONSTRUCT A NINE HUNDRED (900)
SQUARE FOOT GARAGE, IN ADDITION TO AN EXISTING ONE-CAR GARAGE,
- 20 -
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-.-/
AND SEEKS RELIEF FROM 179-16" WHICH ALLOWS ONE CAR GÀRAGE, AND
SECTION 179-7, WHICH LIMITS GARAGE SQUARE FOOTAGE TO NINE HUNDRED
(900) SQUARE FEET. APPLICANT ALSO SEEKS RELIEF FROM SIDE AND
REAR SETBACKS DEFINED IN SECTION 179-16. (WITH 500 FT. OF 100
YEAR FLOOD ZONE - 'HUDSON RIVER) (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) 8/10/94
TAX MAP NO. 144-1-26 LOT SIZE: 0.06 ACRES SECTION 179~16, 179-
7
JOSEPH GROSS, PRESENT
STAFF INPUT
Notes from Staff, Area Variance No. 44~1994, Joseph & Debra
Gross, Meeting Date: August 24, 1994 "APPLICANT: Joseph and
Debra G}'oss PROJECT LOCATION: Palmer Drive CONFORMANCE WITH
THE ORDINANCE: Section 179-16 requires a mi nimum setbac'k of
twenty feet on the side and twenty feet to the rear. Applicant
is proposing setbacks of five feet on the side and rear, so seeks
relief from this section. Section 179~16 allows one garage,
Section 179-7 allows garage size of up to 900 square feet. There
is an existing attached garage of 340 square feet. Applicant is
seeking relief from both number and size of garage allowed.
REASON FOR VARIANCE ,REQUEST, AND BENEFIT TO APPLICANT: Applicant
st.ates that the garage would give him a place to store a truck, a
boat, and other items currently stored outside. FEASIBLE
ALTERNATIVES: A smaller garage would automatically lessen the
need for setback relief. According to Building Department
records, the septic system was altered in 1991, and is not
accurately reflected by the drawing provided. It may be possible
to move the garage further into the yard without affecting the
septic system. IS THIS RELIEF SUBSTANTIAL?: It is Staff's
opinion that this is sub~tantial relief, in the cass of both
setbacks and garage" size. EFFECTS ON THE NEIGHBORHOOD OR
COMMUNITY: The northwest neighbor has a swimming pool very close
to where this garage is proposed to be built, which may create an
undesirable situation for them. If the garage is 1 1/2 or 2
stories, as the applicant indicated to staff, it will be visible
from the glassed-in sun porch of the southerly neighbor, also not
necessarily desirable. Other garages in the neighborhood are of
a smaller, residential nature. IS THIS DIFFICULTY SELF-CREATED?:
It appears that the applicant may plan to utilize this garage for
storage of items connected with his construction business. In
that sense, the need for a garage this size in a residential area
is self-created. Any use other than those associated with
residential use would not be proper in this zone.' PARCEL
HISTORY: Applicant purchased the house in April 1991. A 2-story
. ," addition, ÞOft::h, and shed were added 'i n,1992. :,;¡Al ternations to
septic system were undertaken in 1991. Previous Area Variance
No. 92-1992 granted setback relief for 2-story addition. STAFF
COMMENTS AND CONCERNS: This request seems to be excessive. The
applicant has an existing 340 square foot garage, a 220 square
foot attached storage shed, and now is asking for 900 square foot
garage, with additional storage area above. It does not seem
that the neighbors should have to accommodate this structure
within 5 feet of their property line. In addition to the
discrepancy concerning the septic system location, it should be
noted that the garage is not drawn accurately. It is actually 5
feet longer, front to back, than the drawing shows, placing it
even closer to the neighbor's pool. SEQR: .Type II, no further
action required."
MR. THOMAS-"At a meeting of the Warren County Planning Board,
held on the 10th day of August 1994, the above application for an
Area Variance to construct a 900 sq. ft. garage, in addition to
an existing one car garage was reviewed, and the following action
was taken. Recommendation to: No County Impact" Signed by
Thomas Haléy ,':Chai rpelisöh. ,II
".' ,
"I ,,' ¡ j~"i . ¡ ,{
Mr. ! Gr'oss.: Doyou;:run'iYour, þµsi ness oUPiof"the
MR. TURNER~O ka y . ,
,house?
- 21 -
-
MR. GROSS-No.
MR. TURNER-Yoy don~t run your construction business out of there?
MR. GRÖSS-No, sir. I don't mak~ money working at my house. I'm
an electrical, cqntractor. I,don~t know if any of you gentlemen
are a contractor.' You don't' make money working at home. You
make money working at Finch Pruyn, International Paper, Mount
Royale Plaza. My men are up there working, and that's where ¡ go
to work. As far as doing my paper work, yes, I do it in my den,
but that's only because I have to work 100 hours a week to make a
small busine$s work, and I do my paper work in the den. Other
than that, I~ave a five year lease, and I can give you all a
copy of that. I have a five year lease for an establishment I
use for my business, and, of course, I do come home, with my
truck loaded, and, again, I'll reiterate, being a small business,
I tend to do a lot myself. When my truck's full, at the end of
the day, to go out for the next morning, like tomorrow morning
we're going to Schenectady at 5:30 in the morning, of course, I
pull into my driveway and I have the 40 foot ladder sticking out
of the back of it.
MR. TURNER-Yes. You've got a trailer sitting in front of your
garage now with a whole bunch of stuff on it. What's that?
MR. GROSS-I moved that to the back. It was just, again, lack of,
I had a storage trailer in the back that I wanted to do some
repairs, and I did ask for consent from my neighbor to do that.
It was an eight by thirty storagè trailer. It appeared to be
like a, the same as a travel trailer, and it was just there for a
short period, and I moved that out of there, and there was
nothing that was stored in it. It was just for that purpose that
I wanted to do a little repair to it. Again, I did it on my own
time. I thi nk it was at my shop across town.' So I had the
trailer out front. The trailer is in the back.
MR. TURNER-I know when ~ went by, it was right in front of the
garage. The one trailer L:m. speaking about was right in front of
the garaQe and it was loaded with all kinds of stuff.
MR. GROSS-Right, that has been moved to the back. I put it
there, and it was therefor a week. Like I say, I'm a small
contractor. You'd be welcome to go down and look in the shop
down in Hudson Falls. I put a lot of money into it. I don't
plan on moving out. I think if you went back to 'every small
business where someone does paper work in their hQuse, you
gentlemen would have a busy job going after everybody in
Queensbury.
MR. TURNER-Well, my concern is you out there running a business
out of 'your house.
MR. GROSS-I'm not an auto mechanic. I don't do work at my h00se.
I wire people's homes, commercial buildings, and industrial
buildings. I'm doing Mount Royal~ Plaza. There's a new dentist
office going up. I'm doing work at Finch Pruyn. I don't make
any money at home. The less time I'm at home, the more money I
make. Believe me. If there's any work going on at my house,
it's one of my employees going out there, because it's so busy
I've got them out there cleaning up, because I' just don't have
the time to do it. If I was even more successful, there'd be
more work done. .
MR. TURNER-Anything that's related to the business is going to
leave the area and go to your new spot in Hudson Falls?
MR. GROSS-Absolutely. That's a travel trailer.
two brand new snowmobiles, and I'm'going to
snowmobile trailer. So, I don't consider that,
in my back yard, (lost word) new $2,000 trailer.
I just ordered
use that as my
me pùtting that
A lot of people
- 22 -
'.~
----'"
have travel trailers in their back yard. I have a boat. This is
the nineties. I've got a truck. My wife has a car. I'm
thinking about buying a 'new four-wheeldrivé family vehicle. I
got sic~ of shoveling my vehicle this year. I don't know if you
did, but I did. So, I"d like to þut a garage up just to get' rid
of the snow. If you want to come out on a monthly 'basis to see
if I'm running a business, I welcome 'you. Come on out. I'm not
going to run a business there.
MR. TURNER-Okay. Does anyone else have any questions?
MR. MENTER-I would' ~ay the issue is less ;running'the búsiness
than storage, than business relatèd, you know, your trade related
tools and things. I think that's probably more thè issue that
Ted was getting at than actually being out there and wiring
things in your back yard.
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. MENTER~Because you're an electrician. You don't work at
home, like you say, I mean, that's the way it is.
MR. GROSS-And I hàve'a building.
word). If you take å ride over
that, you're welcome to tak~ a
have.
I don't want to see this (lost
there, if this was co~tingent on
ride over there and see wh9t I
, .
MR. MENTER-No, I'm hot' saying that.
MR. GROSS-No, but I'm' saying ¡ wouldn't want to see it, and I
don't want to see it, and it's not going to be there.
MR. TURNER-No, it's not contingent on that. I just raised the
question because.
! ¡
MR. GROSS-I know. Well, most of th~ neighborhood is behind me.
SO you're goingtobave a, I'll let them,have their time to talk.
I can only see that as, if the setback is a problem, tell me what
everybody wants.' I'll ~ork with you. I wo~ld like to be able to
put my boat, truck, in the garage.
MR. CARVIN-How big is yom- boat?
MR. TURNER-How big is your boat?
MR. G~Ö$S-It's a 17 foot speèd boat.
MR. CARVIN-Okay, and how many vehicles do you have currently?
MR. GROSS-Curr~ntly,' I have two, and I'm purthasing a th~~d.
MR. CARVIN-And you said two snowmobiles?
MR. GROSS-And I jUst ordered t~6 snowmobiles. You have a kid's
four wheeler.. You have bicycles. Yoµ have all this. Cail me a
pack rat, but if you want to come walk through thè place, it's
fùll. .,
MR. CARVIN-And where is the boat currently stored?
MR. éROSS-Right now it's in the water, but inth~ wintet time, I
stuck it out back and I built a tarp/lean-to over it, which gets
a lot of snow, and I've had to shovel it out.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. Your current garage is how big, 340?
MR. GROS$-I honestly didn't ever really check. I would say it's
an oversized one cai garage. It's a one car where yoU can swing
the door out on both sides, but there's a preexisting garage, and
wi thout doi ng major construction to the door, the door' is one of
- 23 -
-./
those
I can't
battle.
old six foot doors, so only a car can fit in that garage.
put my pick-up truck in the garage. It's an ongoing
MR. CARVIN-Okay, and then you also have a 220 square foot storage
shed?
MR. GROSS-Yes.
MR. CARVIN-How would you characterize what you've got in there,
at this point?
MR. GROSS-At this
I've got moldings
finished the house
shelving with boxes
point, I've
and stuff
jam packed
'of clothes
got the
from the
in there,
in there.
bikes jammed
house that I
just clothes.
in there.
haven't
We have
MR. CARVIN-How hlgh is, like a two-story type of storage shed?
MR. GROSS-It's the same height as the garage.
MR. CARVIN-Rafters?
MR. GROSS-It's rafted, but you get out to see it, it's just
nor.mal hei.~ht.
MR. CARVIN-How many bikes?
MR. GROSS-Well, my wife and I have one. My kid has two.
MR. CARVIN-So, four.
motorbikes?
Now, these are bikes, or are they
MR. GROSS-No, no, bicycles.
MR. CARVIN-Just bicycles. Okay~
MR. GROSS-And you've got the three wheelers, big wheels, whatever
you call them, and all the stuff, it adds up.
MR. TURNER-A lót of tOYs.'
MR. GROSS~It's strictly a stor.ge shed, and this is more to
utilize the~vehicles.·' The depth of the building is to allow for
the motorboat. It's difficult ~ith a motor on the back and the
(lost word) on the front. I ~ouldn't mind putting that travel
trailer in there, I've got snowmobiles. I could put it right
inside. That's the bottom line. If the size is a problem, talk
to me. If the setback is a problem, talk to me. I don't think,
in the nineties,:'it's unreasonable to have two garages.
MR. CARVIN-Do you know what the square fqQtag~ of: xo~r house is,
approximately?
MR. GROSS-Approximately, right now it's, I'm going 'to say, 2300
square feet, plus the existing camp, which we are slowly but
surely remodeling, in all h6nesty. .
MR. CARVIN-Yes, but your house at this point is around 2300?
MR. GROSS-Approximately.
that's pretty close, 16 by
room in the back. '
I could be off 100
32, two stories.
"
foot or
There's a
so, but
family
MR. CARVIN-What did you say, 16 by 32?
MR. GROSS-Yes, plûs a porch. Twenty-two by thirty-two.
me.
MR. CARV!N~Yes. í was going to say.
Excuse
- 24 -
',,---
~'
MR. KARPELES-It'says 42.
MR. TURNER-Twenty-two by forty-two.
MR. GROSS-Twenty-three hundred's a generous amount.
MR. THOMAS-The application, for building area, says, 2~60 square
feet.
MR. GROSS-Okay. I wasn't too far öff.
MR. TURNER-No.
MR. GROSS-It might loök big, but once you get in it and start
living in it, it doesn't seem so big anÿmore.
MR. CARVIN-Quite a bit of paved area, too. Twel~e hµndred square
foot ofþaved area, is that cbrr~ct?
MR. GROSS-I don't believe so, sir. I think' they're trying to,
there's a blacktopped, paved area in front of the ~xisting
garage, and we install a gravel driveway to access our back yard.
MR. TURNER-Eight hundred plus four hundred is twelve hundred
square feet.
MR. GRO~S-That must be counting both
would mean six cars in the driveway.
the front of the garage.
driveways, because that
You can squeeze three in
MR. TURNER-Yes, they're probably counting the gravel driveway.
MR. GROSS-Yes.
MR. TURNER-He's got a driveway there. It's gravel, it's not
permeable. It's a driveway. If he's got a driveway there and
it's not permeable, it's a driv~way.
MR. CARVIN-Have you got a gravel driveway already out through
there?
MR. GROSS-Yes. We have a blacktop oD'one side, wh~çh I say, is
about big enough for three vehicles, bumper to bumpeV~ and then I
have a gravel driveway dbwnthe ¿thef side, down the back of my
þròperty.
MR. TURNER-Okay. Have' you got anymore questions, ?nybody?
Lets hear what the public has to say. I-II now oþen the
has I' i ng . 1 '
Okay.
public
PUBLIC HEARING OPENED
DICK WILLETTE
MR. WILLETTE-My name is Dick Willette, and I'm Joe's neighbor,
and I have a petition signed by el~ven residents, h6meowners, on
Palmer Drive, opposing this variance,
MR. TURNER-Okay. Do you want to submit it, for the record?
MR. WILLETTE-I'll submit that. I also have some pictures. You
were wondering about the driveways and the heights of 'the houses.
I have pictures to submit.
MR. TURNER-Okay. Bring them right up. Thank~.
MR. WILLETTE-As you can see, there's very little room between my
home and his property line, which is fine, his property, but I
have about 15 foot from my, the side of my pool to his driveway,
- 25 -
"---
which he ran right down the border line, and I look out my
kitchen window, and here's this car about from here to your desk,
which used to be nice lawn between the houses, and now he wants
to, if you'll notice the size of that ,house, where we live is
Waterfront 'Residential, yOu know~ and most of the places were
camps that were rebuilt years ago, over the years, into permanent
residences, and they're all small. Like Joe said everybody
should have two garages. I'd love to have another garage, but I
just haven'~ got any room, and I don't think there's very many
people on our road that have two garages. In fact, I can't even
think of one right now. Sure it would be nice to have storage
space, and it would be nice to have a place to put another car.
I leave mine out all winter long, and I go out and dig it out,
just like Joe does or anybody else does in the neighborhood.
When Joe first came down, he said they were going to rebuild over
the small house that was there. There was a small house, and
you~ll see the small house. Next door, it looks like Trump
Towers, looking out my kitchen window, as far as that goes.
That's all I can see is the side of his house, and now he wants
to put a 30 foot garage down in back, 60 inches from my line, and
I'm just getting 6ro~ded right out. You can't eve~ see my house
from the other side of the road now. I mean, there's nothing I
can do about the house, but I do question it being 35 feet tall.
It looks like 200 foot tall from where I am, which the variance
says that the" house is not supposed to beoverj5 feet, but it
was approved by the Town, so it must be under 35 feet. It just
looks a hell of a lot bigger than that to me. As far as the
setbacks go, Joey hasn't mentioned to me that he wants to put a
garage back'there. Hohestly, I really don't have a problem with
him putting a garage back there to keep his truck in, or his car,
that size of a garage. I want it moved in further than five
foot, say, ten, fifteen feet. That would be fine. I can
understand, he's got room back there where you could possibly put
a two garage, but I don't know why he says a 30 foot, story and a
half garage. We've got a small house, matching the neighborhood,
and now I've got a damn Trump Tower, like I said, and I don't
need that out in the back. I mean, we all have the same storage
space. I'vf3 got a single garage, I call it single. I have to do
my workshop on one side, or a work bench. I've got a single
garage, anq I've got storage upstairs, and I've got a boat and a
, canoe and t~ve got all kinds of crap in there. In my half a
garage, bes.ide where thé car is, I've got one of these (lost
word), whlch'is a big machine, and I've got a rider mower, I've
got a hand mower. I've got two, 275 gallon oil tanks in there.
I don't have â hell of a lot of room there eithe)·. I'd love to
have another garage, and whether it's the 90's or the 80'S or the
70's, it still doesn't (lost word). Some of my other neighbors
feel the same way. The construction trailer that's on the (lost
word), or whatever it is, that has been removed. ' When Jöe put
that in there, he did come over and ask me, is it okay if I put
this on here' while I do some repairs to it. I s.id, no problem.
I guess the repairs are made. He's moved it out, but now he
wants to put a, the boat and trailer is no problem. A lot of
people on the river, we all live on the river. A lot of them
have boats, and, they put them out in back of the parking lot,
fine. Now he's got' a truck and a car and he's got another
trailer, which is going to be a, snowmobile trailer. So he'd have
a boat out there and a snowmobile trailer, now he wants to get a
four wheel drive, what, motor home? '
MR. GROSS-No, just a truck; just a family vehicle.,
MR. WILLETTE-Just a family vehicle. What's that? Is it a family
vehicle, or is it? Then you've got more vehicles out in back, of
course, more vehicles, more trailers. What can I' say? It's
getting a little crowded, and it sure as hell ruins the view.
MR. TURNER-The aesthetics of the neighborhood.
MR. WILLETTE-Yes, that's a good one, and as far as the paved
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driveway, or the zillion feet of paved ~ area, if you'll look in
that picture, if you can see a paved aiea in there: I don't.
MR. TU~NER-I know, but if it's gravel, and it's not permeable,
then it counts.
MR. W¡LLErTE-That counts?
¡~R. TURNER-That's a 'driveway, whether there's blacktop of not.
MR. WILLETTE-Well, it says paved area.
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. CARVIN-I have a question on that paved area. How long has
that been there? That road looks like it's been there for quite
a while, or is that 'something, tne gravel driveway that runs up
, ,
by your pool.
MR. GROSS-It was done, I would ~ay, ~bout a year ago right now,
just before we moved into the new part. We haven't been in there
quite a year, so gi0e ,or tak~ a month~
MR. CARVIN-That's something that YOU put in there, is it?
MR. GROSS-Yes.
MR. CARVIr-f-Okay.
with that?
MR'~ GROSS-No, no. I contacted the Town to ask them, and thç¡t's
five foot off the property' line.
In other words, you didn't buy the property
MR. CARVIN-I guess I'm questioning the reason for it. To access
the trailer back there?
MR. GROSS-Because the preexisting home,has only got about seven,
eight feet on the opposite side. There wasn't enough room to get
a vehicle to the back yard, and I wanted enough par~ing. We have
family that come and stay, and I wanted to have, enough parking.
I didn't want to have to go out and move two or 'three cars'if I
didn't hav~ to. So I wanted to have access to my b~6k yard. It
doesn't look it yet, but eventually we're going to have a nice
yard there, and I wanted to get some, in 1;:.he Spring,''if you try
to park on that grass, it's like a giant, mushy mud Þuddle. ,You
just sink right in. So I want to get some gravel base down
there, eventually have a nice yard, and I wouldn't want to drive
across brand new topsoil, brand new seed.
MR. CARVIN-I didn't know if the river was behind your house, or
something like that.
MR. TURNER-It's in the front.
MR. d~OSS-It'~ across the street in front of the house.
MR. CARVIN-This is a gravel driveway. I see .the trailer back
there. I didn't know how long it had ,been ::')itting there.
MR. WILLETTE-Another little thing, with that driveway down there,
I kind of doubt, Iquestlon that it's five foot over my line.
The thing of it is, if he Puts a fence up, for instance, which
was kind of suggested, if he puts a fenbe up, I have no access to
my back yard at all, unless I climb over the house with the cars.
I just don't have the room. He's talking about accessing the
back yard, if he says I can't, you know, put my wheels on his
driveway, I can't get in my back yard. That's another. reason why
(lost word) off the' garage in the back. The neighbor on the
other side is upset, too.
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MR. KARPELES-I've got a question. You said you had no objection
to a garage, but it's ~hesize of the garage. Is that right?
MR. WILLETTE-Basically, 'yes.
MR. KARPELES-So, how big o('a garage would you be?
MR. WILLETTE-Big enough to þut a' car in, period, not a story and
a half.
MR. TURNER-All right. What the'Ordinarice says, he can have a
garage as an accessory use, but he can't have anything over 900
square feet. So now he's got a 340 square foot garage. Now he
wants to go 900. Sometimes when you buy aipiece of property, and
that property is limited, you bought yourself your own problems,
and it's not the fault of anybody around you. The TOWD, when
they did the Ordinànce over in '88, they thought that the garages
they allowed were too small because most people had two cars, and
some of them ,had three. So they went with a 900 square foot
garage.
MR. GROSS-But if you have 'a preexistihg one and a half car, what
is the half? You can't get a second car in a half a car garage.
So you're still stuck with a 6ne car garage.
MR. TURNER-Yes, but you bought the property.
MR. GROSS-Yes, well maybe I should tear down the garage. Why
don't I put it in the motion. I'll make that a screened-in porch
area, then I won't have the garage anymore.
MR. CARVIN-Well, unfortunately, that has been the solution in
other cases.
MR. GROSS-I'll do that.
the taking the door out
porch. How's that?
I'll gladly, I'll have a carpenter in
and making a 'screened-in, four season
I ¡i!
MR. TURNER-The problem I have with your piece of property is, the
way those houses are d6wn there, they're right up against the
road, and everything's tight, okay~
MR. GROSS-Right.
lines.
Mine's back as far as it can go, with the power
I
MR. TURNER-I know, but look at the mass of building area you've
got here. It takes up almost the whole front of the lot. So all
you've' got left is 31 feet from the house over, and that accesses
your back yard. That's all you've got left. Y6u've landlocked
the back yard, in a sense.
MR. GROSS-Land locked it?
MR. TURNER-Yes, in a sense, because it's all built up front.
MR. GROSS-Wèll, that's why the gravel driveway is e~lsting.
MR. TURNER-I know it is, but now you're asking for a 900 square
f60t garage, and I have a problem with that, when you've already
got a garage. We'll see what the rest of the p~blic has to say.
Dick, aYe you done?
MR. WILLETTE-Yes.
CARRIE BLAIR
MRS. BLAIR~MY name is ~arri~Blair, and! live on the other side
of Joe, in the Number two house on Palmer Drive. Now my neighbor
on the other side of me, she also said she was concerned with the
trucks that he has ~oming down. He has a lot of traffic going in
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and out. H¢ also has the big çonstruction trailer, not a little
travel trailer. It was a construction trailer, and it bothered
all of us, thinking, what are we going to do here? We live on
the river. We have nice properties. We have a nice little
community, and they come in here and build this monstrosity of a
house, put this big construction trailer here. They have not
finished their house. Now they want to build a garage. They
want to put a boat in it. They want to put a truck in it. Now I
hear they're going to buy a four wheeler, two snowmobiles. They
have a big flat bed there now. What's next? We're all afraid of
this. He has his materials in his home. I've seen him load up
his truck. I've s¢en him bring the materials back. i I can't help
but see this. I'm right next door.' I see everythi ng that's
goi ng on. ' This is not what I want in the neighborhood. My home
is of great value. ,I put a lot of money into i t ~ I just put a
beautiful, big room on the side. I do not' want to be facing
this. I do not want to see this, and I'm sure the rest of the
neighbors feel the same way I do. I went down with a petition
and got as many names as I could. A lot of people were afraid to
sign the petition, but this is the way I feel. If he puts that
garage out there. I'm putting a For Sale sign in front of my
house as soon as possible, and my house is worth a lot of ,money.
I love my house. I'm a widow. My husband has been dead for two
years. I want to stay there and giVe it to my children. It's a
beautiful piece of property. The river's a beautifulplacß to
live on, but they're making it very difficult for us to enjoy.
That's all I have to say.
MR. TURNER-Okay. All right. Thank you.
WALT HAMMER
MR. HAMMER-My name is Walt Hammer. I live on Palmer Drive. I
live two houses from Joe. I have one concern, and that is it's a
veiy small road and it's not constructed to carry the traffic
that will start to come down thereto deliver things that have to
go into storage. The 900 square foot place is not just to store
a truck and a boat. The boat will be there for a while"and then
it'll be pulled out and it'll be put o~tside like .ther~st of the
boats are, and then there'll .be electrical equipment going in
there. There'll be vendors coming down there, and my neighbor on
the corner is very concerned about that, because it's a very
sharp corner, and the road is very narrow. This is my one big
conoern. I'd also like to know, if his business is on the go,
it's a small business, what happens when it becomes a big
business? Does h~ have two trucks coming down there, three
trucks for storage? 'Does he become å Bill Threw? Because that's
what we have up at the other end, on Big Bay. I don't like to
see this happen, because I'm living in a residential, on the
river, and I'd like to keep it that way.
MR. TURNER-Does anyone else wish to be heård? No one else?
We'll read the names on the petition, for the record.
MR. THOMAS-Petition dated August 19th, 1994. "We the
undersigned, all homeowners on Palmer Drive, Town of Queensbury,
are opposed to the variance application for construction of a 900
square foot garage on the Gross property, Palmer Drive, Town of
Queensbury. We are also opposed to the construction trailer that
is now on the Gross property. II Signed, Ernest Coon, Marie
Harrington, Jean Coon, Raymond Gaulin, Carry Blair, Laurie Gates,
Rocco Persuti, Walter Hammer, June Hammer, Richard Willette and
Sadie Willette.
MR. WILLETTE-I'd like to
garage back there, with
going to be plowed to?
the snow going?
bring up a point. If they get that
the driveway in there, where~s the snow
If weget'snqw like last year, where is
MR. TURNER-Around your house. Okay.' Nobody else wants to speak?
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CHRISTIAN J. REINHART
MR. REINHART-I have
Reinhart. I live at
months a year, but!
much you can saturate
one question. My name is Christian
535 McCormack Drive. I'm only there
still live in the aréa. I'mwondering
a piece of property with buildings?
J .
six
how
MR. TURNER-That's my point.
MR. REINHART-That's the only concern I have, how much you can
saturate it. Thank you.
MR. TURNER-Okay. Anyone else have anything else they want to
add, for the last time? Okay.
PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED
MR. TURNER-Any dfsc4ssion?
MR. CARVIN-I think it's substantial.
MR. TURNER-Very substantial'.
MR. CARVIN-We've had a number of garage$, the same thing.
MR. TURNER-The same thing, yes.
MR. CARVIN-You've indicated that you have a storage shed of 220
square feet right now, and there's bicycles and everything, and I
can tell you, quite honestly, I have 144 square feet, and I've
got four bicycles, a snowblower, a lawn mower, a lawn spreader,
skis, clothes, toys, in 144 square feet. I ran some quick math.
If you were to add up all the storage/garage space, it comes up
to about 1460 feet, and you're living in a 2300 square foot
house. ! mea,n, you're tal ki ng about 2/3rds storage ..and 1/3rd
living. " .
MR. GROSS-How did you come up with that?
MR. CARVIN-Well, 900 feêt is"what you're proposing.
MR. GROSS-You cáll the garage storage?
MR. CARVIN-I'm just saying that if this was granted, it would be
a 900 square fóot garage. You have an existing 340 square foot
garage, and a 220 square foot storage shed, and if my math is
correct, it adds up to about '1460'square feet, and, from all
indications, your house is 23, 2400 square feet. So, that's a
lot of storage space, and, I mean, that's excessive. I realize
we live in the age of consumerism, and I've had this argument
before. This is self-created, and I have a '67 automobile that's
still fQr sale, as dll thé Bdàrd members know, that r ~~ep st6red
outside, and it's just a fact of life, that if"you want five cars
and 'fourteen ¡Þoats and thirty-seven motorbikes and twenty-two
snowmobiles, you just can't have the ~torage space and affect
your néighbors', and ,'obviously, this is affectins the neighbors.
So we 'have to draw the line some place, and that's ~ feeling on
it. I think it's just excessive.
MR. GROSS-I think what I own, as far as, I don't need to be
criticized about what I own.
MR. CARVIN-I'm not being critical.
MR. TURNER-W~'re not bein~ critical. Mr. Gross, we have many
people come in here with the same thing that you came with
tonight, the same thing, a whole bunch of vehicles.
MR. GROSS-As far as s~ze?
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MR. TURNER-Yes, the same size.
MR. GROSS-A two car garage (lost word) as far as setbacks to be
met" and .I'm still going £6 be in violation of having two
garages. Now, if I were to make that into a screened porch, and
I meet the setbacks, there's nothing to be said, I can build?
MR. CARVIN-We have had a situation, very similar, where the guy
did, supposedly, convert it into living space, and, I guess Mr.
Martin is following up on that, if that is, indeed, living space,
if you convert that into a family room, and attach, you could
have a 900 square foot garage.
MR. MARTIN-What we normally do to ensure that is we require
removal of the gar age door, wall i ng that i 11,. , r
MR. TURNER-Yes, but I think along the same lines, even though you
require removal of the garage door, you should require that the
proposed use of that room is pre-built before the issuance of any
garage, for 900 square feet, and I think, if that's what we're
going to do, then I will include in the motion.
MR. GROSS-Also, the setback, can I get that variance changed now,
in lieu of anything like that, or would I have to reapply for
that?
MR. TURNER-For the setback?
MR. GROSS-Would I have to meet the 20 by 20 now, right?
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. GROSS-If I were to convert that into living space, it would
be 20 by 5.
MR. rURNER-I don't know.
going to do that.
You'd have to re-advertise if you're
MR. GROSS-Okay. That's not a problem. I think one neighbor went
around and told the neighbors I'm going to start this business,
I'm going to 'run this business out of the house, and everybody's
running scared that I'm going to run a ,business out .,of there.
Because I have a bigger home than them, it sounds like jealousy.
MR. TURNER-No. I don't
with it. When I drove
right in the yard, with
me?
think that's it. That has nothing to do
down there and saw this trailer sitting
all this stuff on it, what did that tell
MR. GROSS-I did ask permission for that.·
MR. TURNER-Yes. but i didn't know about it. What does that tell
me? 'It tells me you're in busi ness down there. Thàt's why we
have residential zones and business zones, Highway Commercial,
Light Industrial, Heavy Industrial. That's why those zone~' are
all drawn out, because that's wh~re we want the busine~~es. We
don't want them in the residential neighborhoods. Do you want us
to rule on this application?
MR. GROSS-I don't have much choice.
up your mind.
I think you've already made
MR. TURNER-I haven't made up my mind. I just told you where l
come from. I think 900 square feet's mòre than adequate garage,
and then when you add all the other square footage, with the
storage sheds and the additional garage, that's way too much.
MR. GROSS-So what do you think would be non excessive?
MR. TURNER-You're allowed 900 square feet, that's all.
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MR. GROSS-Of a garage?
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. GROSS-So you're saying you don't think that a 600 ~quare foot
garage in the back would be excessive?
MR. TURNER-Six hundred square feet?
MR. GROSS-You're saying I have 300 and some odd feet of garage
space, but that's storage area.
. . )
MR. TURNER-That's including everything that yOU 'have there, your
storage area and your garage and everything. You're allowed,900
square feet of garage.
MR. GROSS-Garage. You're saying I have a.
MR. TURNER-You have a garage now, 340.
MR. GROSS-Okay. Yes.
MR. TURNER-All right. So that's.
MR. GROSS-Five hundred and sixty.
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. GROSS-So you're saying you would feel it's non excessive to
have a 560 square foót garage?
MR. TURNER-What I'm saying to you is, realistically, is that
you've got a place that's built out like that. Now you want to
put 900 more in the back. You're building the whole lot out.
MR. GROSS-I'm asking you, in
person that went through
considered 'excessive and not
setback.
'lQ.YL. opi nion, you've changed every
here, would 560 square feet be
the 900? I'm still a~king for the
MR. TURNER-I know.
only allowed one.
You'fe still asking for two garages. You're
MR. GROSS-Okay, but you still it's excessive?
MR. TURNER~Yes, two garages are excessive.
MR. GROSS-Even though there's a preexisting, the neighbor has two
garages, and a two câr gara~e, a garage big enough to be two cars
with only one door, of course. Granted, it's preexisting.
MR. TURNER-So that's grandfathered.
M~~ G~b~S-fha~~s·iight. I
<',
·'t,j"',",J
MR. MENTER-That doesn't effect out position in this.
MR. GROSS-You mean one neighbor could, have it, and then the next
you could say, no, they don't deserve it, they don't' need it?
MR. MARESCO-This goes back to 1967. This has nothing to do with
the issue 'today, absolutely nothing.
MR. TURNER-Okay.
MR. GROSS-Make your motion.
MR. TURNER-I'll make a motion.
MR. GROSS-Can I ask a question? Is there anything about building
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a temporary lean-to for the winter, for out back, aiemporary
structure, a temporary tent? I'll go buy a circus tent~ put. up a
30 by 30 circus tent up out back? The siding won't match, and
the roof won't match the house, but is there a problem with the
zoning for a temp~rary structure? . I ,.
MR. CARVIN-I think you're creating an awful lot of problems with
your neighbors. You've got to live there.
MR. GROSS-I mind my own business. I come home so late, I go to
bed. That's it. I don't talk to my neighbors. My best thing in
the world, if everybody minds their own business. I asked you a
question, that's all I asked. From a zoning point of view, would
I have a problem, for just the winter months, to have a strict,
temporary structure put up? I can ask Monday, how's that? I'll
stop in and ask.
MR. MARTIN-I have no problem answering it right now. Zoning does
not regulate temporary structures. I have to say that. I've had
this asked, too, with these garage situations, in the past. It's
just another way, another issue that comes up all the time.
Temporary is something that is not permanently affixed to .the
ground.
MR. WILLETTE-For how long?
MR. MARTIN-Permanently affixed means foundations, footings.
MR. WILLETTE-You could put a 30 foot tent on th~re and leave it
there forever?
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. MARTIN-I hate to say those things. I'm just stating what the
regulations read.
NEIGHBOR-What are. ~he regulations being parked out in back of the
property? I guess that's against the law, an RV?
MR. MARTIN-Not if it's mobile like that, or a tr~iler.
NEIGHBOR-Can they live in it?
MR. MARTIN-Again, it's mobile.
MR. GROSS-Believe me, I'm not going to put a tent in the back
yard, I just wanted ~o prove a point. Let$ just drop it. Make
your motion. I .don't want to see a te\ît in my back yard any more
than any of you do. I didn't want to see the trailers, and I
didn't 'want to see all the clutter, either: Obviously, it must
not bother them having the clutter.
MOTION TQ DENY ARE~ VARIANCE NO. 44-1994· JOSEPH ,& DEBRA GROSS,
Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved for its adoption,
seconded by Fred Carvin:
The applicant has an existing garage of 340 square feet which is
allowed in th~; zone and is asking for an additional 900 $quare
feet which is not allowed, a secondary garage. The hardship is
self-created by the applicant. The difficulty is self-created by
the applicant and the . neighborhood has indicated their
disapproval of the application, due to' the excessive uses on the
property and buildings. It's a detriment to the neighborhood.
The applicant is asking for substantial relief in both setbacks
and garage size.
Duly adopted this 24th day of August, 1994, by the following
vote:
AYES: Mr. Menter, Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Carvin, Mr. Thomas,
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Mr. Maresco, Mr. Turner
NOES: NONE
MR. TURNER-Okay. Did everybody get that letter from Sue on the
tabling?
MR. MARTIN-Yes. We need some clarification as to how you want to
handle that.
MR. CARVIN-I think she's done a good job.
problem.
I don't'see any
MR. MARTIN-I think she's got a proposed resolution there, if you
want to consider thât.
MR. TURNER-Yes. I think I referred to that tonight when I tabled
that one apþlication. That's fine.
MR. CARVIN-Speaking of tabling.
MR. TWRNER7Yes. _!h~ one withAronson~ I'll tell you, that's
gone.'YOu·carf forSelt 'ttia:t. \-'Hé's not:·'cdmingb~bk.-He bought a
bui ldi ng in Hudson Falls. '
MR. CARVIN-How about Albany Savings/Chris Lynch?
MR. MARTIN-I would consider that to be gone, if you want to make
a motion to that effect tonight.
MR. CARVIN-That's the Albany Savings Bank/Chris Lynch, that's
that piece of property there that the Bank wanted to foreclose
on, because this was tabled May 25th, June, July, August, so this
is really three months.
MOTION TO REMOVE AREA VARIANCE NO. 26-1994 ALBANY SAVINGS BANK
CHRIS LYNCH FROM THE DOCKET, Introduced by Fred Carvin who moved
for its adoption, seconded by Theodore Turner:
Duly adopted this 24th day of August, 1994, by the following
vote:
AYES: Mr. Carvin, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Maresco, Mr. Menter,
Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Turner
NOES: NONE
MR. CARVIN-Okay. I also have George Mabb.
MR. TURNER-He's coming back.
week.
We granted him an extension last
MR. CARVIN-Okay.
MR. TURNER-Double A Provisions, although we don't have a letter
from him, the gentleman that represented Double A Provisions told
me that, I asked him, what was the status of the application, he
told me that Mr. Aronson had bought another building in Hudson
Falls, and, therefore, would not be back on this application.
MR. KARPELES-How about Minarchi? Minarchi's coming back, right?
MR. MENTER-Yes, he's coming back. While we're on it, what's the
Seeley, Seeley is a done deal.
MR. TURNER-What's the status of Seeley?
notice?
Did you serve him
MR. MARTIN-He has purchased a lot over off of Big Boom Road, and
they're doing the business out of there.
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MR. TURNER-All of it?
Did they approve that last night?
MR. MARTIN-No. That was tabled until September.
MR. TURNER-All right, but is he going in that subdivision?
MR. MARTIN-Yes.
MR. TURNER-So Craig's machine shop and his father's will be
together?
MR. MARTIN-Right.
MR. TURNER-Okay. All right.
anybody got anything else?
MR. MÁRTIN-Did you adopt the motion on the tabling, as. Sue
suggested?
That's gpod.
¡
All right.
Has
MR. TURNER-No, but I will.
MOTION TO AD9PT THE RESOLUTIQN REGARDING
Introduc~d by Theodore Turner who moved
seconded by Chris Thomas:
TABLIN~ PROCEDYRE,
for its adoption,
Duly adopted this 24th day of August, 1994, by the following
vote:
AYES: Mr. Maresco, Mr. Menter, Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Carvin,
Mr. Thomas, Mr. Turner
NOES: NONE
MR. TURNER-Anything else? Okay.
ad jour ned . ;
.' ,'",J '._ i I " , ""
No further business, meeting is
, '~f:
_, !,,'ji'ì1 ¡ :,',
On motion meeting was adjourned~
" .,\
,
. J; ¡.
·f: ¡
I. ;;"1.
RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED,
Theodore Turner, Chairman
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