Loading...
1994-11-16 _.__..~ '-" FILE COpy OkYiGINAl QUEENSBURY ZONING BOARD MEETING FIRST REGULAR MEETING NOVEMBER 16, 1994 INDEX Use Variance No. 103-1993 Extension of Approval Car Essentials 1. Area Variance No. 104-1993 Extension of Approval Car Essentials 1. Use Variance No. 59-1994 K-Mart Corporation 3. Area Variance No. 60-1994 Charles Freihofer, III 11. Area Variance No. 61-1994 A. Tellier 13. Area Variance No. 62-1994 Mark W. Darius 16. Area Variance No. 63-1994 Troy Bapp 19. Use Variance No. 64-1994 E. James Barrett 28. THESE ARE NOT OFFICIALLY ADOPTED MINUTES AND ARE SUBJECT TO BOARD AND STAFF REVISIONS. REVISIONS WILL APPEAR ON THE FOLLOWING "'10NTHS MINUTES (IF ANY) AND WILL STATE SUCH APPROVAL OF SAID MINUTES. ~ ~ J QUEENSBURY ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS FIRST REGULAR MEETING NOVEMBER 16, 1994 7:30 P.M. MEMBERS PRESENT THEODORE TURNER, CHAIRMAN CHRIS THOMAS, SECRETARY FRED CARVIN ROBERT KARPELES ANTHONY MARESCO DAVID MENTER MEMBERS ABSENT THOMAS FORD EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR-JAMES MARTIN PLANNER-SUSAN CIPPERLY STENOGRAPHER-MARIA GAGLIARDI OLD BUSINESS: USE VARIANCE NO. 103-1993 TYPE: UNLISTED HC-1A/LI-1A CAR ESSENTIALS OWNER: GERALD & ROGER HEWLETT SOUTH SIDE OF DIX AVENUE APPLICANTS REQUEST EXTENSION OF APPROVAL FROM ZBA DECISION ON NOVEMBER 17, 1993 TO CREATE ONE AND SIX-TENTHS (1.6) ACRE LOT VIA LOT LINE ADJUSTMENT AND UTILIZE IT TO CONSTRUCT A RETAIL PLAZA. THE NEW LOT WOULD BE BISECTED BY THE ZONE BOUNDARY BETWEEN LIGHT INDUSTRIAL lA AND HIGHWAY COMMERCIAL lA. APPLICANTS ARE SEEKING RELIEF FROM SECTION 179-26, LIGHT INDUSTRIAL ZONES, WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW A RETAIL PLAZA. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) 11/10/93 TAX MAP NO. 110-1-2.7 AND 1.32 LOT SIZE: 2.69 ACRES AND 1.18 ACRES SECTION 179-26 MIKE MANGO, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT MR. TURNER-It's basically asking for an extension of the Use Variance and the Area Variance. MR. THOMAS-A letter dated October 11, 1994, "Dear Sirs: We respectfully request that you extend the Use Variance and Area Variance approvals for the one additional year on the project sited for Quaker Road, Queensbury, adjacent to the Mazda Dealership. Due to delays, we have not been able to close on subject property to date. We hope to do so in the near future, and do plan to proceed with the project as proposed. Thank you in advance for your help in this matter. Respectfully, Michael Mango" Do you want to do them both at the same time? MR. TURNER-Yes. AREA VARIANCE NO. 104-1993 TYPE II HC-1A/LI-1A CAR ESSENTIALS OWNER: GERALD & ROGER HEWLETT SOUTH SIDE OF DIX AVENUE APPLICANTS REQUEST EXTENSION OF APPROVAL FROM ZBA DECISION ON NOVEMBER 17, 1993 TO CREATE ONE AND SIX-TENTHS (1.6) ACRE LOT VIA LOT LINE ADJUSTMENT AND UTILIZE IT TO CONSTRUCT A RETAIL PLAZA. THE NEW LOT WOULD BE BISECTED BY THE ZONE BOUNDARY BETWEEN LIGHT INDUSTRIAL lA AND HIGHWAY COMMERCIAL lA. APPLICANTS ARE SEEKING RELIEF FROM SECTION 179-23C AND SECTION 179-26C, WHICH EACH REQUIRE A FIFTY (50) FOOT BUFFER WHERE LI-1A AND HC-1A ADJOIN EACH OTHER. TOTAL RELIEF SOUGHT IS ONE HUNDRED (100) FEET, OR ONE HUNDRED (100) PERCENT, IN ORDER TO UTILIZE THE PARCEL. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) 11/10/93 TAX MAP NO. 110-1-2.7 AND 1.32 LOT SIZE: 2.69 ACRES AND 1.18 ACRES SECTION 179-23(c), 179- 26(c) - 1 - '- ~~ MIKE MANGO, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT MR. TURNER-Okay. What's the Board's pleasure? Does anyone have a problem with that. MR. CARVIN-I just have one question. I see, attached to the notes here. the Planning Board, the site plan review only extended the time frame until June 30, '95. Is that going to be a problem if we go to November here, or should we just make it to the same, should their be corresponding? MR. TURNER-I would think so, corresponding. MR. MANGO-That would be fine. Six months is fine. MR. CARVIN-In other words go to line it up with the Planning Boa.rd? MR. MANGO-That's fine. Yes. Mike Mango. MR. TURNER-Do you think you'll be in a better situation six months from now? MR. MANGO-Well, we've finally closed on the property. We've (lost word) with the Army Corp of Engineers. We'll probably break ground in the spring. MR. TURNER-Okay. Six months will cover you then? MR. MANGO-That's fine. MR. TURNER-Okay. Fine. All right. questions? Does anybody have a problem? June 30th. Okay. Any other MOTION TO EXTEND USE VARIANCE NO. Introduced by Theodore Turner who seconded by Fred Carvin: 103-1993 CAR ESSENTIALS, moved for its adoption, Until June 30, 1995. The reasons stated by the applicant initially have been addressed. The applicant has closed on the property. Therefore, he can meet the six month extension, as he so indicated. Duly adopted this 16th day of November, 1994, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Maresco, Mr. Menter, Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Carvin, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE ABSENT: Mr. Ford MOTION TO EXTEND AREA VARIANCE Introduced by Theodore Turner seconded by Fred Carvin: NO. 104-1993 who moved for CAR ESSENTIALS, its adoption, Until June 30, 1995. The reasons stated by the applicant initially have been addressed. The applicant has closed on the property. Therefore, he can meet the six month extension, as he so indicated. Duly adopted this 16th day of November, 1994, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Maresco, Mr. Menter, Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Carvin, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Turner NOES: '\IONE - 2 - ~ J ABSENT: Mr. Ford NEW BUSINESS: USE VARIANCE NO. 59-1994 TYPE: UNLISTED PC-1A K-MART CORPORATION OWNER: ZAREMBA GROUP 49 DIX AVENUE APPLICANT PROPOSES USE OF INTERIOR SPACE FOR A BANKING FACILITY. PERMITTED USES UNDER SECTION 179-22, PLAZA COMMERCIAL 1A DO NOT INCLUDE BANKING FACILITIES. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) 11/9/94 TAX MAP NO. 110-1-2.8 LOT SIZE: 27.92 ACRES SECTION 179-22 TODD MANN, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT; MIKE MANGO, PRESENT STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff, Use Variance No. 59-1994, K-Mart Corporation, Meeting Date: November 16, 1994 "APPLICANT: K-Mart Corporation ADDRESS OF PROPERTY: Dix Avenue SUMMARY OF PROJECT: Applicant seeks to install a banking facility in an existing K-Mart building. CONFORMANCE WITH USE/AREA REGULATIONS: Section 179- 22, Plaza Commercial, does not include banking facilities as an allowed use. REVIEW CRITERIA, BASED ON SECTION 267-b OF TOWN LAW: 1. IS A REASONABLE RETURN POSSIBLE IF THE LAND IS USED AS ZONED? Yes. There is a K-Mart store on the land, which is considered a multi-function department store. 2. IS THE ALLEGED HARDSHIP RELATING TO THIS PROPERTY UNIQUE, OR DOES IT ALSO APPLY TO A SUBSTANTIAL PORTION OF THE DISTRICT OR NEIGHBORHOOD? The difficulty in this and other cases seems to be the omission of banking facilities from both the Highway Commercial and Plaza Commercial zones. It is an allowed use in Residential Commercial zones, so was not omitted from the Ordinance entirely. 3. IS THERE AN ADVERSE EFFECT ON THE ESSENTIAL CHARACTER OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD? Since this is entirely an interior function within the K-Mart store, it would not appear that there would be any adverse effects, such as increased traffic. 4. IS THIS THE MINIMUM VARIANCE NECESSARY TO ADDRESS THE UNNECESSARY HARDSHIP PROVEN BY THE APPLICANT AND AT THE SAME TIME PROTECT THE CHARACTER OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD AND THE HEALTH, SAFETY AND WELFARE OF THE COMMUNITY? Yes. STAFF COMMENTS AND CONCERNS: As stated during the Appeal by Troy Savings Bank, staff do not believe that a bank would be an inappropriate use in a Highway Commercial or Plaza Commercial zone. It simply was omitted as a permitted use. An Ordinance revision allowing banks in these two zones has been submitted to the Town Atto)-ney, to be considered by the Town Board. The Enclosed Shopping Center zone does not list banking facilities, either, but there is a history of banks being in Aviation Mall. SEQR: Unlisted. Short form EAF must be reviewed. (No apparent impacts)" MS. CIPPERLY-Could I amend that just a little bit? The Aviation Mall was built under the rules of the 1967 Zoning Ordinance, where banks were allowed in Commercial zones. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. THOMAS-"At a meeting of the Warren County Planning Board held on the 9th day of November 1994, the above application for a Use Variance to use interior space for a banking facility (Albany Savings Bank). Was reviewed, and the following action was taken. Recommendation to: No County Impact" Signed by Thomas Haley, Chairperson, and I've got one letter, but that's later. MR. TURNER-Okay. Gentlemen, anything to add? make a statement? Do you want to MR. MANN-My name is Todd Mann. I'm with International Banking Technologies, IBT. I am here with representatives from K-Mart and Albany Savings, and what. I would like to do is, since the concept of a branch inside of a store may be, and is a novelty in this part of the State, if I may show you some pictures of other - 3 - ---- similar branches, and then just talk to you a little bit about the concept. I have, first, a photo of a branch of K-Mart in Chicago, and then one of a branch in a more of a traditional store, outside Philadelphia. These branches are full service, and they're open extended hours, typically six or seven days a week, into the evening hours. A little bit of background for you. My company works with retailers and financial institutions around the Country to help put these programs together. Our company started, or I should say created this concept in the early 80's, as a test in Atlanta between a supermarket company and the bank, and we kind of tagged on to changes in consumer lifestyles, with increases in two income ea~-ner households, and became a greater strain on families to make it to their traditional branch before the branch closed. So by having a bank open later hours in the evening and on weekends created more flexibility and convenience for the people to take care of their banking needs and be able to do it while they were accommodating their food shopping. It was just a greater convenience. Retailers, obviously, are very sensitive to consumer needs. It's very easy for a shopper to decide to go across the street to another store to take care of their shopping needs. So seeing this as a growing interest and a growing need, ~-etailers such as this K-Mart have been putting more and more banks within their stores, and you also have banks of financial institutions, such as Albany Savings, which has finally gotten around to saying, hey, maybe instead of asking consumers to take care of their banking needs when it's convenient for us, the financial institution, we're going to start being open when it's convenient for the consumer. So it's been terrific having financial institutions like Albany Savings becoming progressive enough and willing to expand themselves. So, all of these financial institutions, these branches, are wholly within the store, as will this one be within the K-Mart. The only access to the branch is by coming inside the store, and the only market that the Bank is trying, Albany Savings is trying to service are those customers who are already coming to the store. Their purpose isn't to pull more and more shoppers from around the area. There's enough market potential for that, in terms of existing customers and potential customers, to be able to develop a profitable business for themselves. That's my statement, and we would like to be able to place Albany Savings inside this store. MR. TURNER-Has anybody got any questions? MR. MARESCO-I have one. Will there be any ATM machines in there, for 24 hour service or anything like that? MR. MANN-Yes, and there is one that is in the store as of the store opening. So the ATM will be there so that the people can get cash if they need to. MR. THOMAS-What kind of services are you going to offer in this Bank? Would I be able to go in there and get a loan, write a check, cash a check? What I'm looking at is this picture of this one here. You've got somebody behind the counter. You've got a desk out there, and you've got a sign there that says, loans, and all this. So it's going to be a full banking branch? MR. MANN-It's a full service office. You can accomplish every function at one of these offices that you can do at a traditional branch. Except, obviously, you won't have a safety deposit box. That's one of the less frequently used services that require a lot more space. MR. THOMAS-Okay. Thank you. MS. CIPPERLY-Another point that may be pertinent is the fact that they're not asking for any additional exterior signage, and that's by contract with, that's specified in their contract with K-Mart. - 4 - '- '--' MR. TURNER-We were probably going to get to that. MR. MANN-I was just going to add, if I may, one more comment about the concept is, right now, there are about 2200 of these around the Country, and it's just really working its way into the Northeast. The Northeast has pretty much lagged behind the rest of the economy, for a couple of reasons. One is the economy took a pretty difficult turn during the past couple of years, and secondly, overall, store sizes and real estate available were small. So it's only been recently the store has just started growing to a size that can accommodate this branch. That I would say to you that within the next couple of years, you're likely to see a couple hundred of these in New York State. MR. TURNER-Okay. ~ question would be, how is K-Mart going to prove they cannot realize a reasonable return if it's used as zoned, the property? That's one proof you've got to prove, for a Use Var iance. MR. MANN-I need some help on the question. MR. TURNER-They have a building there. They're a private entity. They're a single business. They, obviously, are making a reasonable return on the property as zoned. Now we have a business that wants to go in there that's not an allowed use, which requires a Use Variance. I want K-Mart to tell me that they're not realizing a reasonable return on the building. MR. MANN-Well, it's designated as lease space on the original drawings, and now. MR. TURNER-Yes, but now you're putting a use in there that's not permitted. MR. MANN-You're saying, reasonable return on that it's not leased out. show area. us that we're not making a Right now, it's boarded off and MR. TURNER-On your property. return on your property as zoned. You're realizing a Are you not? reasonable MR. MANN-No, because that space is not leased out. MR. TURNER-No, not that space, the whole complex. This is within the complex. MR. MANN-Which was originally zoned for a sight and save, or a Nation's Mart was in that area. It was a dry cleaners. If the store was open with the dry cleaners, yes. We'd be 100 percent. We'd be getting our investment on our return. That's basically not leased out now. MR. TURNER-Yes, but this is a complex. It's just like a mall, space that's within in a sense. the total MR. MANN-Well, it would be the same as a mall then, right? If your occupancy rate wasn't 100 percent, you wouldn't be MR. MANGO-This is, a branch in a store has become pretty much of a standard offering by stores, much like pharmacies, floral departments. MR. TURNER-But you have to stand by the same standards that everybody else that comes in here for a Use Variance. MR. MANGO-Which is, help me out? MR. TURNER-The Bank's going to lease from K-Mart. K-Mart's got to tell us they're not making a reasonable return on the property as zoned. They've got 190 some thousand square foot store. - 5 - '-" MR. THOMAS-I'll read it right off the application. Number 13, "Is a )-easonable return possible if the land is used as zoned?" You have marked, no, and explaining, "The convenience of a bank located in K-Mart for the Queensbury residents cannot be achieved without the approval of this Use Variance. MR. MANGO-K-Mart has made a decision, out of its corporate offices, that the banks within its stores help it achieve not just a financial return by renting the space, but a financial institution does more for its business, in terms of enhancing the loyalty of its customers than can a lot of other services. That's why K-Mart, relatively recently, has put banks into the drawings of most of its stores. The feeling is, since Day One, banks, they're looking at their entire layout for their stores, banks being a critical part of their operation. MR. TURNER-Yes, you know, but what I'm saying to you, obviously, maybe some of the other places, the bank is permitted, here, it isn't. So now tell me why you can't realize a reasonable return on the property as zoned. You can't tell me that. MR. MANN-Can I ask you a question? I'm not to speed on the Code. Is the only way they can get a variance by demonstrating that they would not? Mf~. CARVIN-I can read you what the Ordinance, okay. It says, "No such Use Variance shall be granted by a Board of Appeals without showing by the applicant that applicable zoning regulations and restrictions have caused necessary hardship. In order to prove such unnecessary hardship, the applicant shall demonstrate to the Board of Appeals that for each and every permitted use under the Zoning Regulation for the particular district where the property is located, One, the applicant cannot realize a reasonable return provided that the lack of return is substantial, as demonstrated by competent, financial evidence. Two, that the alleged hardship relating to the property in question is unique and does not apply to a substantial portion of the district or neighborhood. Three, that the requested Use Variance, if granted, will not alter the essential character of the neighborhood, and, Four, that the alleged hardship has not be self created. The Board of Appeals, in granting of the Use Variance, shall grant the minimum variance that it deems necessary and adequate to address the unnecessary hardship proven by the applicant, and at the same time preserve and protect the character of the neighborhood, and the health, safety and welfare of the community." Now that's, basically, the criteria that we have to look at when we address a Use Variance, and I don't have all the Code memorized yet like Ted does, but I don't, have you gone through what the app)-oved uses are? MR. MANN-Yes. I guess that when I saw things like barber shop, I mean, those other entities I was kind of at a loss, to why a bank could be excluded from a rather lengthy list of uses that seem pretty similar, particularly for a function which wasn't going to be visible from the street. You wouldn't know it was there until you were inside the store. You're going to the store for your shopping, and, great, there's a bank. I can take care of my needs. You're not creating added traffic. So there's no added traffic. I can't see this as being anything but a plus for the community, a consumer service, having something that's there seven days a week. MR. TURNER-Maybe I wouldn't disagree with you on that point, but you can't prove the other points. That's what I'm saying. MR. MANN-I think we application, then, and spaces. would have to go back to our original I think we did list these (lost words) MR. TURNER-That's fine, but that doesn't count. tell you, it's not a permitted use in the zone. I'm trying to - 6 - "'---' --- MR. MANN-You said to prove financial. leased, right, you'd have 100 percent. have zero. So right now we have zero. I mean, if the space was If it's not leased, you MR. TURNER-All right. Let me say this to you. Anything that's not permitted under that list would not be allowed in there without a Use Variance, whether it's a bank, or whatever. MR. CARVIN-Suppose you wanted to put a bed and breakfast in there. That's not an approved use. MR. TURNER-That's not an approved use. MR. CARVIN-See, and that's the intent of the Ordinance. MR. TURNER-That's the intent of the Ordinance, exactly. MR. MANGO-Can I ask you one question? Looking through this, we did become aware that there were other financial institutions which put in branches but came in under Office Building, under Office Building scenarios, and there may have been other circumstances here, but I think we were trying to come in as straight as we are. I guess I understand what you're saying, in terms of the strict ruling of the Code, but I guess I'm at a loss as to, there are always going to be instances where things. MR. TURNER-As indicated in the notes to file, there, that the Town Board probably was going to do something about this down the road, but when they do it, I don't know, but until that happens, that's what we have to use as a standard for now. MR. MANGO-I mean, if we had come in as an Office Building, would that have, like the previous banks, would that have then gotten us in? MR. TURNER-I'm not sure, because each one of them is reviewed on its own merits. I think the particular sticker here is the fact that this is within a complex, another complex that's a permitted use, that's realizing a reasonable return, and you want to be part of that complex, with a use that's not permitted. MR. MANGO-Is there any feeling as to why a bank was omitted as a use, when photo shops and barber shops, and this is a standard service offering. MR. TURNER-Yes, well, that might be, and things do change, and I agree with you there, but this hasn't changed. MS. CIPPERLY-One difference between this one and the, for instance, the Troy Savings Bank, which was the last one that was an Appeal, you were fairly specific on saying that the functions that they wanted to put into that building really were their office functions, more than banking facilities, and Troy Savings Bank has put in their banking facility over in Glen Square Plaza, but that's, you were fairly specific on your reasoning on that. MR. MANGO-Were people still using Troy Savings as a bank? I mean, if that's the case, if I'm not mistaken, there's a drive up ATM. I mean, there's such an obvious case of added traffic. I mean, we're talking about an impact on the neighborhood, (lost word) bank coming in as an Office Building, but its use, its purpose in life is a bank, being granted an exception to the case. Here's one which I regard as having a zero impact, come in calling it what it is, and therefore we're not getting the same latitude. MR. CARVIN-What is the K-Mart, did they come in under 179-22, as, what, as a retail business? Well, actually, Ted, I think that the Plaza, as long as there's no outside, I mean, are they coming in a shopping mall plaza? - 7 - '-' --/ MS. CIPPERLY-Multi function department store is the definition. MR. CARVIN-Well, as long as there's no outside signage, and they're coming in under, whatever. What did you say? MS. CIPPERLY-Multi function department store. MR. CARVIN-Do we have a definition of department store? MR. TURNER-Yes. A retail business with a wide variety of goods or range of several departments, including restaurants and services such as a beauty shop. It doesn't list bank. MR. THOMAS-Wouldn't that be considered a service? MR. TURNER-Page 17931. The problem is service. If it was a permitted service, permitted service. it's not a permitted fine, but it's not a MR. MANGO-Well, would you be able to tell the department stores what it could offer within a store? If Macy's started offering. MR. CARVIN-It seems to me that you're going to have a lube and oil, something or other there? Well, that's not a permitted use. It doesn't say anything about lube and oil in here, but it would be covered under Department Store. MR. TURNER-It comes under that. MR. CARVIN-A multi function department store, you know, I really don't have a problem with the bank inside, as long as there's no outside signage. MR. TURNER-I don't have a problem with the bank, but there's just a standard that we have to meet, and this is a Use Variance, and unfortunately, if they fail on one, they fail the Use Variance cr i te)" ia . MR. CARVIN-Well, I think you have to weigh against some of the othe)" stuff. MR. TURNER-I know. MR. KARPELES-I think it's an oversight. MR. CARVIN-I don't know if we could outline all the uses in a Department Store. MR. THOMAS-Yes. You'd have a difficult time doing that. MR. CARVIN-I mean, it doesn't say ladies clothing apparel. I mean, that may not be an approved use because it's not defined in the O)"di na nce . MR. THOMAS-And what about the other three criteria that have to be met? MR. TURNER-It's not going to alter neighborhood. the character of the MR. THOMAS-No. MR. CARVIN-I mean, is the alleged hardship self created, well, maybe it is, but if they are a department store, I mean, a bank would, could be considered. ~ would have more of a problem if they came in, if Albany Savings Bank came in next month and said, look, we want to put some signage on the outside, because that changes the whole character of the Plaza. MR. THOMAS-Yes, it does, but I thi nk as fa)· as this one is - 8 - '-- --/ concerned, I don't see any big deal with putting that bank in there. MR. KARPELES-I don't either. MR. MARESCO-I don't either, and I think it's an oversight. I mean, here we're allowing a whole list of. MR. TURNER-Well, I think that's why, you know, they're going to address it sooner or later. MR. THOMAS-Yes, through the reVlSlon, but in the meantime, they're sitting there with 600 square feet waiting to open. MR. MARESCO-Sure. MR. THOMAS-And it's for the convenience of the customers. not for an outside entity to come in and use it. It's MR. MARESCO-Like I said, if it was signage that they were putting out there, then it's a whole different story. MR. THOMAS-Yes. Signage would be a whole different story. MR. TURNER-This is the end of your leasable area? Will this be the end of it? MR. MANN-No. We have one more. MR. MENTER-Which is what? MR. MANN-It was going to be a sight and save. Right now we're just using it for (lost word). MR. MARESCO-A sight and save? MR. MANN-The sight and save was going to be optical, eye glasses. MR. TURNER-So God knows what that is, right? MR. MANN-I'm sure I'll be back. MR. CARVIN-But my point is, as long as there's no outside signage, and if it's a department store. MR. TURNER-I'm just looking down the road, and I don't think the Town Board is going to, you know, not do something about it, but suppose they do? MR. MENTER-Well, I think it's unique enough, Ted, and I think that's substantial justification. MR. THOMAS-Yes. too. I think this is going to be the market trend, MR. TURNER-It's obviously the trend because they're doing it all over. MR. MENTER-Well, the question is rationale, the justification of what you're doing. I think everybody feels like. MR. CARVIN-I mean, if they were coming in and putting in a fireworks shop, but I really don't see where this will alter the essential character of the neighborhood. MR. TURNER-Okay. Are you gentlemen done? I'll open the public hearing. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED - 9 - '--' NO COMMENT PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED CORRESPONDENCE MR. THOMAS-We have one letter~ dated November 14, 1994, Dear Ms. Thomas: I am writing to you at this time in regard to the Notice of Public Hearing for the K-Mart Corporation, Zaremba Group owner, being held November 16, 1994. We have no objection to the use of the interior space for a banking facility at the K-Mart Plaza, 49 Dix Avenue. We ask that you and the Planning Board be made aware that the proposal will abut our business property, a New York State licensed dismantler, repair shop and used car dealership. In addition to the State licenses, we have an approval of the Town to operate what we term a junkyard. Our business has been located at its present site for many years, and we look forward to continuing operation for many more years. Again, I am expressing our lack of objection to the K-Mart project to the Town Planning Board and asking that the Board recognize the approved business of our property adjoining the proposal site. II And it's signed by Mr. Larry Brown, Vice President. MR. MENTER-A neighbor. MR. TURNER-A neighbor. Okay. Motion's discussion? If not, motion's in order. Do you with it? in order. Any feel comfortable MR. MARESCO-Yes. MR. KARPELES-Yes. MR. TURNER-All right. MOTION TO APPROVE USE VARIANCE NO. 59-1994 K-MART CORPORATION, Introduced by Fred Carvin who moved for its adoption, seconded by Anthony Maresco: The applicant is seeking to install a banking facility in an existing K-Mart building. In order for the applicant to accomplish this end, they are seeking relief from Section 179-22, Plaza Commercial, which does not include banking facilities as an allowed use. I think the applicant has demonstrated that the hardship relating to this property could be considered unique, and certainly does not apply to a substantial portion of the district or neighborhood. The concept of including banking facilities in K-Mart's is gaining acceptance as a standard form of doing business. By granting this variance, there would be no adverse effect on the essential character of the neighborhood, since this entire banking function will remain within the interior of K-Mart and at no time will there be any external signage. This would be the minimum variance necessary to address the unnecessary hardship proven by the applicant and at the same time protect the character of the neighborhood and the health, safety and welfare of the community. It also should be noted that an Ordinance revision allowing banking in the Highway Commercial and Plaza Commercial zones has been submitted to the Town Attorney for consideration by the Town Board. The Short EAF shows no negative impact. Duly adopted this 16th day of November, 1994, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Menter, Mr. Carvin, Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Maresco, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE - 10 - "--- -./ ABSENT: Mr. Ford AREA VARIANCE NO. 60-1994 TYPE II WR-3A CHARLES FREIHOFER, III OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE APPROX. 1,500 FT. NORTH OF LOCKHART MOUNTAIN ROAD ON ROUTE 9L, LAKE SIDE, SIGN "ROCK BOTTOM" APPLICANT PROPOSES CONSTRUCTION OF A SCREENED PORCH/DECK AEA FOR A TOTAL OF 384 SQ. FT. AN ENCLOSED STORAGE AREA WOULD BE BUILT UNDER THIS STRUCTURE. APPLICANT SEEKS RELIEF FROM THE SIDE SETBACK REQUIRED BY SECTION 179-16, WATERFRONT RESIDENTIAL lA. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) 11/9/94 TAX MAP NO. 2-1-3 LOT SIZE: 1.2 ACRES SECTION 179-16 JOE ROULIER, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff, Area Variance No. 60-1994, Charles Freihofer, III, Meeting Date: November 16, 1994 "APPLICANT: Charles Freihofer, III PROJECT LOCATION: Route 9L PROPOSED ACTION: Applicant proposes to construct a screened porch/deck area totalling 384 sq. ft. An enclosed area would be built beneath this structure. CONFORMANCE WITH THE ORDINANCE: Applicant seeks 10 ft. relief from the 20 ft. minimum side setback required by Section 179-16, Waterfront Residential l-A zone. Proposed east side setback is 10 feet. West side setback of existing house is 75 feet, so 50 ft. combined setback requirement can be met. REASON FOR VARIANCE REQUEST, AND BENEFIT TO APPLICANT: Applicant wishes to open the east side of the house so as to enjoy the natural surroundings on this more private side of the house. FEASIBLE ALTERNATIVES: There would not be any alternatives as far as providing porch area on this side, since the existing house is 23 ft. from the property line at this point. The landowner does own the adjacent property to the east jointly with the next door neighbor. This means either: 1) The variance will not bother anyone because of this shared ownership or, 2) The owners could undertake a lot line adjustment so that this middle piece becomes part of each lot, and no variance is needed. IS THIS RELIEF SUBSTANTIAL RELATIVE TO THE ORDINANCE?: The request is for 50 percent of the required setback. EFFECTS ON THE NEIGHBORHOOD OR COMMUNITY: This project would not appear to have any adverse effects on the community. IS THIS DIFFICULTY SELF-CREATED? The desire for a porch is, the proximity of the lot line is not. PARCEL HISTORY: This parcel was purchased by the applicant June 4, 1976. The house was constructed in 1979 (major renovations were done in the year 1988 as per Assessor's Office). STAFF COMMENTS AND CONCERNS: No further comment. SEQR: Type II, no further action required." MR. THOI'1AS-"At a meeting of the Warren County Planning Board held on the 9th day of November 1994, the above application for an Area Variance to construct a screened porch/deck area for a total of 384 sq. ft. was reviewed, and the following action was taken. Recommendation to: Approve" Signed by Thomas Haley, Chairperson. MR. TURNER-Do you want to read that modification? MR. THOMAS-Yes. A letter dated 11/16/94, to the Town of Queensbury Zoning Board, from Joe Roulier, regarding Charles Freihofer, III proposed screened porch/deck area storage modifications, "Deck area to be increased by two feet in width, for a total square footage of thirty-two additional feet. Storage area to also be increased by two feet in width. No overall affect on variance application since the setback of 10 feet will not be altered by these changes." And a new drawing is attached. MR. TURNER-Okay. Joseph. MR. ROULIER-Good evening. My name is Joe Roulier. I'm here to - 11 - represent Mr. Freihofer. I would like to clarify an issue that Mr. Turner asked me about this afternoon. The adjoining piece of property is owned by Mr. Freihofer and Mr. David Proll of New Jersey. Their intention when they purchased that property was that it would not be purchased by anyone else, and consequently no one else would ever be erected on that particular piece. I had a conversation with Mr. Proll prior to coming down here this evening, and what is happening to that piece of property is that the deed building rights will be transferred over to the Nature Conservatory. By doing that, that will ensure that no one, in the future, will ever be allowed to build on that particular piece of property, but Mr. Prall, Mr. Freihofer are currently doing the, setting up a trust fund, whereas the proceeds from that fund, annually, will go to the Nature Conservancy, and that will maintain their role in preserving it, essentially, forever wild. Once that is accomplished, there will be a property line adjustment, so that the property is divided, 50 percent and 50 percent between the two gentlemen, and it would be also combined in their respective deeds, at that point, which I expect will be happening within six to twelve months. The issue that we have before us is no longer a valid issue. If you have any questions regarding this I would be more than happy to answer them for you. MR. TURNER-Has anyone got any? MR. THOMAS-When does he want to start construction of this deck? MR. ROULIER-He would like as soon as you fellows give us the okay. We're trying to get in there and excavate that portion of the house, even, it's not a significant excavation because it's pretty much on ridge rock, but we would like to get going in about two to three weeks. MR. THOMAS-So you couldn't wait the six months until the property line adjustment was done? MR. ROULIER-We'd prefeT not to. We'd prefer to get going. The intent of purchasing the property was that no one would ever build on the property, and we feel as though the variance is the minimum required to go ahead with this particular project. MR. THOMAS-At the bottom of that gully there a stream that flows through there just a, like a runoff? on that north side, is year round, or is that MR. ROULIER-No. It's probably a runoff. MR. THOMAS-On the side you want to build the porch or the deck, it goes down into a deep gully. MR. ROULIER-That's just a natural runoff. MR. THOMAS-It's just a natural runoff? that flows through there year round? And there's not a stream MR. ROULIER-No, there isn't. There's a stream that flows at the other end of the property, as you come down the driveway area. You may have seen that culvert underneath the road. MR. THOMAS-Yes. That I know about, but I was wondering about that other side. MR. ROULIER-Yes. No. It's just the particular slope of the property and the natural runoff in the spring, that's all. MR. THOMAS-Okay. MR. TURNER-Anyone else? Okay. I don't have any questions. He answered the question I asked him today and that's fine. That's great. Okay. I'll now open the public hearing. - 12 - "'--' '-"" PUBLIC HEARING OPENED NO COMMENT PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED MR. TURNER-Okay. Motion's in order. MOTION TO APPROVE AREA VARIANCE NO. 60-1994 CHARLES III, Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved for its seconded by Fred Carvin: FREIHOFER. adoption, This will provide 10 feet of relief from the 20 foot mlnlmum side setback required by Section 179-16 in a Waterfront Residential One Acre Zone. Since the house is constructed in such a way, the porch has to be located on that side of the house. The relief is substantial relative to the Ordinance, but as the applicant's representative has explained, that this will be deeded over in six months, so that the question that we're talking about tonight will be moot. The project will not appear to have any adverse effect on the community. It's not self created since the house is located in the position that would require a variance for that side. This would be the minimum relief to alleviate the practical difficulty demonstrated by the applicant. Duly adopted this 16th day of November, 1994, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Carvin, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Maresco, Mr. Menter, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE ABSENT: Mr. Ford AREA VARIANCE NO. 61-1994 TYPE II UR-10 A. TELLIER OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE WEST SIDE OF MALLORY AVENUE SECOND LOT SOUTH OF INTERSECTION WITH NATHAN STREET APPLICANT PROPOSES 25.33 FEET SETBACK FROM ROADWAY IN LIEU OF THE REQUIRED 30 FT. SEEKS RELIEF OF 4.67 FEET FROM THE FRONT SETBACK REQUIREMENT STATED IN SECTION 179-17, URBAN RESIDENTIAL 10. TAX MAP NO. 117-5-4.1 LOT SIZE: 0.23 ACRES SECTION 179-17 A. TELLIER, PRESENT MR. TURNER-Okay. Good evening. happened? Would you care to explain what MR. TELLIER-Yes sir. We don't want to shift the blame (lost word), but there is a lot, at the beginning of the construction, there was a lot of confusion as to where that property line actually is, because the pavement is not in the center of the right-of-way. It's along one edge of the right-of-way, and so we were trying to figure this out, as to how far the setback should be. So rather than have it surveyed at that time, the customer chose not to have a surveyor at the beginning, but he wanted to have a survey, pay only one trip to come out and survey the foundation after it was put in. So we did our best to measure where it was. We drove the stakes, and I think we were fairly accurate at the time, but the fellow that drove the bulldozer knocked the stakes over, and moved the dirt, piled the dirt up, so we lost our reference at that point, and when I showed up the next day, I questioned. I stopped construction for at least one day or a day and a half while we tried to find out, because I felt that the hole was a little bit too close to the road. So they brought the bulldozer back the next day, and they dug the hole, and they moved it back another three or four feet, but inadvertently, but I felt that it was fairly correct at that point, but after the place was backfilled and we had to measure where the foundation was, we realized that it was about two feet - 13 - <,-, or so off, too close to the road. After the surveyor came, we found out it was actually four feet. So it was a big mistake. I built 36 houses in this area, a lot of it in the Town of Queensbury. This is the first time this has ever happened to me, and this is the first time that I didn't actually, was not present when the hole was dug and when the foundation was there. So that's what happened. MR. TURNER-Okay. Any questions? How big was that dozer? MR. TELLIER-That was a little bit larger than a D4. MR. TURNER-Well, it's a tough mistake. MR. THOMAS-If you could estimate, how much do you think it would cost to have Larmie come in and lift that house up and put another foundation back however far it's got to go? MR. TELLIER-It depends on, I used to do a lot with modular homes. This is not a modular. If it were a modular, it would be feasible, but you can't lift a stick built house as easily as you can a modular. MR. TURNER-They can do it. They could do it. I've seen them do it. They're great. Okay. comfortable with it like it is? They're good. Do you guys feel MR. THOMAS-Everybody's entitled to one mistake, and this is the fb-st one in 36. MR. TURNER-Not a bad track record. MR. KARPELES-You better not be back. MR. TELLIER-I've only got two lots left, sir, and I plan to do something else with my life. MR. TURNER-You're going to survey them first this time, right? MR. TELLIER-Yes, sir. MR. TURNER-Okay. Let me open the public hearing. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED NO COMMENT PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED MR. TURNER-Grant relief, you intend to, what, put a garage there? MS. CIPPERLY-As far as Correspondence, we didn't have anything written. We did have one phone call from a Mr. Williams, I believe his name was, from, he was calling from Florida, and he was just mainly calling to find out what was going on, and just said, well, kind of too far away to attend the meeting, and. MR. MENTER-It doesn't appear like it's going to affect the neighborhood at all. MR. TURNER-No. That's minimum relief, really. That's real mlnlmum, but, you know, when it comes to a garage or something else down the road, he's got to meet the setbacks. MR. CARVIN-Well, the guidelines, I think in making the determination, the Board shall also consider whether an undesirable change will be produced in character of the neighborhood or a detriment to nearby properties. Two, whether the benefits sought by the applicant can be achieved by some other method feasible for the applicant to pursue other than the - 14 - '-- -/ Area Variance, and obviously bulldozing it back five feet is a possibility, but I don't think it's very feasible. Three, whether the requested Area Variance is substantial, and five feet, I don't feel is that substantial. Whether the proposed variance will have an adverse effect or impact on the physical or environmental conditions of the neighborhood or district. Again, I don't think that's relevant, and whether the alleged difficulty was self created. However, there's one. Okay. Self created, which considerations shall be relevant to the decision of the Board of Appeals but shall not necessarily preclude the granting of the Area Variance. So, I mean, we've got four out of the five. So, I don't have a problem with it. MR. TURNER-No. Okay. MR. TELLIER-Maybe it would be wise to put on the record that the houses of all the next block on Mallory street are much closer than 30 foot setbacks. Now this is on the north, since Mallory runs north and south. So on the north side of Nathan Street, all of those houses where Mrs. Willette, who used to work in the Town of Queensbury, her house and several others there are only about 20 feet. They're older homes. MR. TURNER-Yes. They're older homes. That's probably, they've been there probably before zoning. MS. CIPPERLY-One thing to note on this particular zone, the front setback has a couple of asterisks by it, and it says, "Or the average setback of the two adjoining principal buildings, whichever is greater". If there are adjoining principal buildings that are closer to the road. MR. MENTER-I don't think that helps in this case. I think the one is set on the road, and it's further back, and the next door on those side are vacant. MS. CIPPERLY-Yes. It still says whichever is greater. So if we go with the 30, I think we'll be, I didn't go out and measure the adjoining building. MR. CARVIN-Okay. As an aside, are you still giving out those bright colored things? MR. MARESCO-Yes. I was looking for them. MR. CARVIN-I didn't see any of them. MR. KARPELES-I didn't see any up at Freihofer's either. MS. CIPPERLY-I'll check on that. I don't usually do that function. I'll check on whether that. MR. TURNER-Okay. Motion's in order. MOTION TO APPROVE AREA Introduced by Theodore seconded by Fred Carvin: VèRIANCE NO. 61-1994 Turner who moved for A. its TELLIER, adoption, The zone is UR-l0, and this is relief of 4.67 feet from the front yard setback as required in Section 179-17. Testimony of the applicant indicates that an error was made, due to the lack of surveying the property first before the building went up, therefore, creating the problem that's in front of us tonight. This is the minimum relief to alleviate the practical difficulty. It is kind of self created, but again it's just a minor mistake. It will not alter the character of the neighborhood, since many of the homes up there have less setbacks that are preexisting homes of that nature, and there's no neighborhood opposition. Duly adopted this 16th day of November, 1994, by the following - 15 - .',---- -- vote: AYES: Mr. Carvin, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Maresco, Mr. Menter, Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Turner t-..lOES: NONE ABSENT: Mr. Ford AREA VARIANCE NO. 62-1994 TYPE II LI-1A MARK W. DARIUS OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE RIVER STREET, OFF QUAKER ROAD APPLICANT PROPOSES TO REMOVE EXISTING OFFICE AREA ON EAST SIDE OF BUILDING AND CONSTRUCT NEW CUSTOMER WAITING ROOM, OFFICES, AND PARTS ROOM ON WEST SIDE OF BUILDING. RELIEF IS SOUGHT FROM 30-FOOT SIDE SETBACKS REQUIRED IN SECTION 179-26, LIGHT INDUSTRIAL lA. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) 11/9/94 TAX MAP NO. 112-1-35 LOT SIZE: 0.48 ACRES SECTION 179-26 MARK W. DARIUS, PRESENT MR. THOMAS-HAt a meeting of the Warren County Planning Board held on the 9th day of November 1994, the above application for Area Variance to construct an addition to business offices, parts room and customer waiting room was reviewed and the following action was taken. Recommendation to: Approve" Signed by Thomas Haley, Chairperson. MR. TURNER-I went down there today and Mark and I measured it up, and the map is off a little bit if you add it up. It comes up to 138 feet wide instead of 124, and it puts the office, he has a side yard setback of 25 feet 10 inches from the property line to the existing building, instead of 28 feet. MR. MENTER-What was that one, Ted? MR. TURNER-Where the proposed office is supposed to go, he shows 28 foot. From the building to the property line is 25 foot, 10. MR. MENTER-The existing? MR. TURNER-Yes. Do you agree, Mark? 1'1R. DARIUS-Yes. MR. KARPELES-So this 12 foot should be 9 feet, 10, then? MR. TURNER-He's got, what, 16 feet? MR. THOMAS-Yes, 25 to 9 feet 10 inches. MR. TURNER-Yes, 9 feet 10 inches. Okay. Does anybody have any questions of the applicant? MR. CARVIN-I have a couple. If I'm correct, there's a fence that runs up along the property, and it seemed to me there was a whole bunch of trees on your side of the fence. Are those trees going to be removed? Are they going to stay there? MR. DARIUS-No, they're not going to be removed. MR. CARVIN-Okay. those trees? So there shouldn't be any interference for MR. DARIUS-No. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Also, the facility, is there going to be any, you've got here, I guess, waiting room, office and parts room. Is there going to be any work or shop area in this new section? In other words, there's not going to be any repairs? - 16 - '-- ..-" MR. DARIUS-No. MR. TURNER-What he indicated to me today was, Fred, that the proposal to do it this way is to move the office and the parts room over here, and in the spring he wants to put another two bay section on the east end of it. MR. CARVIN-That's what I was wondering, if there was another site. MR. TURNER-Yes. bays ove," here. He wants to take this down and put another two MR. MENTER-What you said was going to extend the building on the east side how far, those two additional bays? MR. DARIUS-Approximately 40 feet. MR. CARVIN-Why aren't you squaring it up? set.backs? Why are there MR. TURNER-The main building's offset. MR. CARVIN-Well, no, what I'm saying is that, because he's going to have a jag here, and he's got a jag in the front. MR. DARIUS-That'll add a little character to the building, and plus my Niagara Mohawk and my gas meter comes in right here. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. MENTER-It doesn't affect the setback, though. MR. CARVIN-No. It doesn't affect the setback. I'm just trying to, because if he's going to put another part on the other part, it seems to me there's going to be a lot of angles on the thing. MR. TURNER-The property property. That doesn't fairly safe. That one's some time. that he abuts is the old Cieba Geigy have anything wrong with it. That's okay. So I guess that could be sold MR. KARPELES-I didn't realize they owned on that side of the road. MR. TURNER-Yes, they do. MR. KARPELES-Do they own that big tank theì"e, too? MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. DARIUS-That's their tank for purifying all the stuff they pump from the other side of the road over there. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. DARIUS-They pump it across the road and into that, then do whatever they do to it, then pump it back over across the road. MR. TURNER-Manhattan Pulp and Paper used to be right next to this place. There used to be a building up in there. Okay. Any further questions of the applicant? MR. MARESCO-The question I did have he pretty much answered, what was the reason for, you know, but you already explained why. MR. TURNER-Okay. Let me open the public hearing. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED - 17 - ~ NO COMMENT PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED MR. TURNER-Okay. Any further discussion? Okay. MOTION TO APPROVE AREA VARIANCE Introduced by Theodore Turner seconded by Robert Karpeles: NO. 62-1994 MARK who moved for its W. DARIUS, adoption, This would grant the applicant relief of 20 feet 2 inches from the 30 foot required side yard setback, from Section 179-26 in a Light Industrial One Acre Zone. The difficulty with the property is that the building is offset to that side, and in order to add additional working space to the east side of the building, the applicant must change his office space and his parts room to the west side of the building, therefore requiring the variance from the 30 foot side yard setback. The property was just indicated as 124 feet in width. When he maxes his building out, it'll put him approximately 40 feet from the easterly side yard. So that would put him within 36 feet of the easterly side of his property line. It's not self created. There's no neighborhood opposition, and this is the minimum variance to alleviate the practical difficulty. Duly adopted this 16th day of November, 1994, by the following vote: MR. MENTER-How is it that your overall measurement across the front was greater than his? MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. MENTER-Yet, both sides are smaller. MR. TURNER-I know. His deed says 124, but where he showed me where the property line was to the other property line, measured from the property line to the buildings, we came up with 138 feet. So it may be the easterly property line's not in the right place. I think that's more it than anything, the one next to Zack's. MR. DARIUS-Right. That one has been surveyed by me and Mrs. Zack that used to own it, and the guy that owns Zack's, so that line. MR. TURNER-Is there a marker there? MR. DARIUS-That string is the marker. MR. TURNER-Yes, but they have a marker on the front corner and a marker in the back, that the pull the string on? MR. DARIUS-There's like 20 feet of fence on Zack's. There's a pin right there driven in, and on the back side of Mrs. Zack's, there's another pin there, and that string was well right on there. MR. TURNER-Maybe you own a little bit more there than you thought you did. Does your deed show it? MR. DARIUS-My deed does show 124 by 168. MR. TURNER-Well, anyway, he's only seeking relief from the side that's critical. AYES: Mr. Menter, Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Carvin, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Maresco, Mr. Turner I'WE::::;: NONE - 18 - ',,-- -/ ABSENT: Mr. Ford AREA VARIANCE NO. 63-1994 TYPE II SR-1A TROY BAPP OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE SUNNYSIDE ROAD, OFF OF BAY ROAD APPLICANT PROPOSES CONSTRUCTION OF A 20 FT. BY 30 FT. POLE BARN TEN (10) FEET FROM THE SIDE AND REAR PROPERTY LINES. RELIEF IS SOUGHT FROM SECTION 179-19, WHICH REQUIRES A 20 FOOT REAR SETBACK IN THE SUBURBAN RESIDENTIAL 1 ACRE ZONE. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) 11/9/94 TAX MAP NO. 54-6-14 LOT SIZE: 0.66 ACRES SECTION 179- 19 TROY BAPP, PRESENT MR. THOMAS-"At a meeting of the Warren County Planning Board held on the 9th day of November 1994, the above referenced application for an Area Variance to construct a 20 ft. by 30 ft. pole barn was reviewed, and the following action was taken. Recommendation to: No County Impact" Signed by Thomas Haley, Chairperson. MR. BAPP-On the side line there's plenty of room on the side, 10 feet on one side and 120 on the other side. I was just looking to go closer to the back. MR. TURNER-What are you from the mobil home back to the proposed storage shed, Troy? MR. BApP-Probably 100 feet. MR. THOMAS-This shows 65 feet. MR. TURNER-The door going to be on the side, on the 30 foot way or on the 20 foot way? MR. BAPP-Right on the 20 foot line. MR. TURNER-Facing the front? MR. BAPP-It will be facing the road. I talked to the other property owners behind me, the golf course. There's like a buffer zone, probably 100 feet of wooded area between their lot and mine. MR. CARVIN-There appeared to be a white shed. I don't know. Is that on your p)-ope)-ty? MR. BAPP-Right now that's on the golf course property. MR. CARVIN-That is the golf course. So that's not yours. MR. BAPP-I'm pretty,sure, the way that the map shows it anyway, that that goes up behind the Billedou's property. MR. CARVIN-Okay, because the way the roof was sloping and the way the shed was facing, I thought it might but into your property somehow. MR. BAPP-I think really when we (lost work) over towards mine, and with the golf course I've asked the Jacobsens, and they said that it might be a little bit on mine and a little that's on skids, if I do have to pull it. Billedou's property sitting there, and it's okay. I think bit on theirs, but MR. MENTER-That's your shed? 1'1R. BAPP-Yes. MR. CARVIN-That's the existing shed, or are you going to build in addition to that shed. MR. BAPP-No. It's not going to be attached to that. It's going - 19 - -- to be a separate. MR. CARVIN-So you're going to have the white shed and? MR. BAPP-Right. MR. CARVIN-Well, how big is the white shed? MR. BAPP-Twelve by ten, I think, twelve by twelve. MR. TURNER-How high up do you propose to go with this? MR. BAPP-Somewhere around 18 feet, I think. MR. TURNER-Eighteen to the peak. So you're going to have a pitch on the roof? MR. BAPP-I've already got the trusses there. the ga~-age. I just tore down MR. TURNER-You're going to utilize them? MR. BAPP-Yes. MR. THOMAS-Is this a storage shed or a garage? MS. CIPPERLY-According to what I was told by was not planning to store a vehicle in there. occasion, to service his vehicle, work on his planning to use it. the applicant, he He may use it, on car, but he wasn't MR. BAPP-I'm not going to use it as a garage, but if I do need, you know, it's raining or something (lost word). Right now I use my father's garage. MR. CARVIN-I guess I need to, what exactly is a pole barn? MR. MENTER-Post and beam. I'1R . CARVIN-Post and beam, open sides? MR. BAPP-Open sides. Just for the meantime, I was going to see if they would let me enclose it. Maybe next year I could do that. MR. CARVIN-Okay. There's no garage on the property or anything, is the~-e? 1'-1R. TURNER--No. MR. CARVIN-Just the trailers? MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. CARVIN-And the mobile homes, I guess. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. CARVIN-Are there two families, the mobile homes or the trailers? MR. BAPP-My grandmother in law lives in the other one. MR. CARVIN-Okay. So there are two families on that property? MR. BAPP-Yes. Mf:;::. CARVIN-Okay. MR. TURNER-Yes. How long have they been there, Troy? - 20 - "--- ~ MR. BAPP-Since 1964 or '65. MR. KARPELES-Why can't you leave the 20 foot setback? MR. BAPP-Right where the corner of the pole barn would be would be a septic that runs from the one trailer right down there, plus, too, there's a swimming pool. I tried to stay back away from those as far as I could. MR. KARPELES-The septic tank goes far enough so that it would hit the? MR. BAPP--["Jell, reason that I have any. the leach want this runs out that way. That's the only (lost word) the swimming pool doesn't MR. TURNER-Does the leach field run parallel with the easterly property line from front to back? Do they run front to back, from the road? MR. BAPP-Yes. It's curved a little bit. MR. TURNER-Do they extend that far out? Because according to the measurements, you're 65 feet from the trailer to the front of the shed. They're not back that far? MR. BAPP-No. MR. TURNER-So how much room could you come forward and come away from that property line? Come over and come forward? MR. BAPP-I think if I go the 20 feet from the back line. MR. TURNER-You're only talking 10 feet more. You're talking 10 feet more to move it, and 10 feet from the side. MR. BAPP-The 10 feet might make a difference toward the leaching. I'm not really sure, if it would or not. MS. CIPPERLY-He's okay on the side setback. MR. BAPP-Yes. The sides are all right. MS. CIPPERLY-It's just, so you'd be talking about moving it forward. MR. TURNER-Ten feet more. MR. CARVIN-Well, he's got that other shed, too, even though it's on skids. Wheì-e's that one sited? If it's his shed, I'm sure he's going to have to move it on to your property at some point, right? MR. BAPP-Yes, at some point. MS. CIPPERLY-The definition of a structure is attached to the ground. So I'm not sure what you do. MR. CARVIN-It's a pretty good sized structure. I mean, it appeared to be bigger than what those, you say it's a 10 by 12 or thereabouts? MR. BAPP-Twelve by twelve. It might be, probably, ten feet high. MR. CARVIN-It's got a slanted roof. I saw it from the road there. I didn't go out to measure it or anything. It looked like a pretty good sized shed. I mean, that's sited in here some place. MR. TURNER-Yes. - 21 - --- -' MR. CARVIN-Possibly two sheds, right? MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. BAPP-See, right now I've got all my lawnmowers and wheel barrels and things out under tarps. MS. CIPPERLY-It may be that if you're going with one shed per lot, it's really one shed could go with each principal building, if you're trying to determine whether he needs. MR. TURNER-I guess my other question would be, why couldn't you turn that shed that you're proposing, turn it the other way, like you have the alternative location. You've got that turned the 30 foot way. MR. BAPP-I've got my neighbor over there. He doesn't want me to drive around from that side. MR. TURNER-No. I'm not saying that. Not, putting it in the alternative location. i'1R. 8APP-·You mean tur nit that way? MR. TURNER-Just turn it around. MR. BAPP-To get to it, I'd have to come around the opposite way, unless I made the door on the side. MR. CARVIN-It still sounds to me like it's going to be a garage. MR. TURNER-Well, you can't store a vehicle in there. MR. CARVIN-Okay. MR. TURNER-He can, but he's not supposed to. MS. CIPPERLY-He doesn't currently have a garage. MR. CARVIN-I'm not arguing that, but I'm saying, build a garage. MR. TURNER-He's saying it looks like a garage. MR. THOMAS-Yes, but can he have a 600 foot storage shed? was a few people in here a couple of months ago that would liked to have had one that big. There have MR. CARVIN-Yes. gar age, right? I was going to say. He could have a bigger MS. CIPPERLY-There isn't a limitation on the size of a storage shed, a pole barn. MR. MARESCO-There is no limitation on the size of? MF~. TURNER-No. MS. CIPPERLY-Only the 900 square feet on the garage. MR. TURNER-See, some of the zones are, like, 200 square feet, and this one here would be. MS. CIPPERLY-In the Single Family Residential, there's a limitation of 200 feet on a shed. MR. TURNER-Yes. It's 100 feet without a permit. MS. CIPPERLY-SFR-1A has a limitation. MR. CARVIN-So he's going three times over the storage shed? - 22 - ~ ~ MR. TURNER-Yes. storage shed. There's no limitation in SR. It just says, MS. CIPPERLY-By nature, the little more restrictive. subdivisions. Single Family Residential zone is a It's more likely to be covering MR. CARVIN-I hope they address this shed/garage issue. MS. CIPPERLY-We're working on it. In fact, we do have a draft. MR. TURNER-When does a shed become a garage? It's all in how you hang the doors. MR. CARVIN-We have a pole barn, so we don't have any doors here. MR. TURNER-I know. No, but I'm saying the ultimate end is all in how you hang the doors. MR. CARVIN-It all boils down to the use. MR. MARESCO-How many sides does a pole barn, I'm confused on a pole barn. It has no sides at all? MR. BAPP-I don't really know how that works. Most of the pole barns that I've seen have had closed in siding. MR. MENTER-It's a framed structure, and the siding would go, generally, on the outside of the frame. MR. TURNER-Yes. A lot of them only close in three sides. MS. CIPPERLY-I think the pole barn construction is really defined by the type of framework that you say. MR. MENTER-Post and beam. MR. TURNER-Yes, post and beam. MS. CIPPERLY-Well, it's poles in a footing, and it's really the, sometimes they're completely covered, like a barn, and other times they're open. MR. BAPP-I have other friends that built one on Ridge Road, and they ended up boxing theirs in. It's a little bit bigger than this one. MR. CARVIN-Well, if it's going to be "a garage" or work area, I'd like to see, I'd have to agree with Bob. I'd like to see it, I think he can meet the setbacks. MR. TURNER-Yes. Because he's got 65 feet. MR. MENTER-Yes. I think there's room, and I also think that, there is already a shed. MR. CARVIN-He's going to have another shed there, in some fashion or form. MR. TURNER-He's only got to go 10 feet. That still leaves you 55 feet in back of the trailer. MR. THOMAS-It shows the septic coming out 20 feet, where the septic tank is, and then the leach field beyond that. So that 65 cuts down to 45, however far the leach goes out from there. MR. CARVIN-I guess the pole barn would only have, what, only four posts in the ground anyway, right? MR. THOMAS-Not that size. You'd have to have more. - 23 - '--- ---' MR. TURNER-You'd have to have more than that. You'd have to have your corners, one in the middle, three on the back. MR. 8APP-And then too, if I do move it forward, the weather conditions might a factor (lost word). MR. CARVIN-Well, the alternative would be the reduce it down, I mean, the size of the shed. MR. TURNER-How high are yOU going with the peak, again? MR. BAPP-It think it's 12 and 6, 18 feet. MR. TURNER-Eighteen feet going 12 feet up to the proposed building is? to the peak. eaves. From the All right, and you're pool over to where the MR. THOMAS-According to this drawing, it's 38 feet to the nearest point. MR. TURNER-You'll never get in the pool from there, 38 feet. MR. MENTER-Are you scaling off this drawing? MR. THOMAS-Yes. It says this drawing's to scale, one inch equals 40 feet. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Is the pool 27, though, across? MR. THOMAS-On the inside it shows 29. MR. CARVIN-So there's another two feet. MR. TURNER-There's two feet. MR. THOMAS-It's a pretty good drawings for doing it free hand. MR. TURNER-Okay. What do you want to do? I think he can move it ahead another two feet. MR. CARVIN-Yes. I think he can comply with the Ordinance. MR. KARPELES-Yes. I think he has to prove he can't, anyway. MR. TURNER-Yes. He can't prove he can't. No. MR. 8APP-Will there be enough to put up, you know, on the other side of my back line? It's just a buffer zone with the trees. MR. TURNER-I know. say that property's down the ,-oad. Maybe not now, Troy, but there's nothing to going to get sold. Anything could happen MR. BAPP-That's true, I guess. MR. TURNER-Nothing's forever. MR. CARVIN-That's for sure. MR. TURNER-Okay. I'll open the public hearing. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED JIM PULVER MR. PULVER-I'm Jim Pulver. I live next door to Troy on the west side, which is where the alternate site is. MR. TURNER-Yes, right. - 24 - '-- ~ MR. PULVER-My personal preference would be that the variance would be granted and that he would be allowed to go on the preferred site, for a number of reasons. Basically, because I adjoin that property. As already indicated, the building's going to be 18 feet. The shadow footprint from that building will impact me. If he picks the alternate site, visually, I'll be staring into a fairly large building from my property. The land that he proposes to build on slopes away from his residence and, subsequently, I think will give the building a lower profile, the farther back it goes. I don't know that much about how big the buffer zOne is between the golf course and Troy's property. I have the same situation behind my property, in that there's a buffer between me and the golf course. As to whether future buildings would occur there, would, I guess, depend on the size of the buffer and the people that own that property. I don't know anything about that. All I know is that my preference would be to go with, if approval is granted, my preference would be that the variance would go, keep the building farther back, and the lower profile, in terms of, to hide the building from what I'm going to see. MS. CIPPERLY-Which side did you say you were on? MR. PULVER-I'm on the west side. MR. TURNER-He's on on the west side. correct? the west side. He wants it He doesn't want the building on the east side. Is that MR. PULVER-That, definitely, would be ffiZ preference. Like I say, if it's 18 feet high and 20 feet, depending on which way it's. MR. TURNER-Do you have a problem with him going ahead with the building 10 feet more, on the east side? MR. PULVER-I don't have a problem with that, per se, but my preference is as I have indicated. MR. TURNER-He's proposing the 10 feet now, and we're saying to him, move it 10 feet forward so you don't need a variance. MR. PULVER-Right, and I'm just letting you know, as the adjoining land owner, what my feelings are. MR. TURNER-Yes. I understand. Okay. Thank you. MR. THOMAS-Sue was just saying, if you took it and rotated it clockwise from that northeast corner, and made the back of the pole barn parallel with the back property line, you could probably get 18 feet. MR. MENTER-Ted suggested that, didn't you? MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. MENTER-There's going to be an access problem. MR~ TURNER-Yes. He said he didn't want it. MR. THOMAS-You said rotate it 90 degrees. MR. TURNER-I said turn it right around and make it 30 feet go along the back property line. MR. THOMAS-Just make it like this. MR. TURNER-Yes. That's what L said. All I said was take it, and go 30 feet this way, 20 feet that way, like that, and move it up 20. - 25 - - ---- MR. THOMAS-Make this, there's a 20 here and a 30 here, and that way it would be. MR. TURNER-Fine. I don't have a problem with that. MR. THOMAS-Rotate it like that, on the northeast corner, pivot it on that northeast corner, so the back of the building, instead of being, it would be parallel to that back line, but it would be at an angle to the side line. You'd get almost 18 feet, because that's what this measurement is here, right now. MR. BAPP-Just turn it so that the long ways is this way? MR. MENTER-No, so it's like this. She's got it dr a~<J n there. MS. CIPPERLY-More like just take it and move it like this. MR. MENTER-Push it to where this is 20 feet, because here you're at 10, push it to 20, straight off this line. MS. CIPPERLY-See, right now, this is about 18. MR. BAPP-Yes, but by the time I do that. MR. MENTER-Well, you've got eight feet to work with there, and you're just going to, that's something you'll have to look at on the property. MR. BAPP-I should have measured this closer, too, because I think that's much closer, really, than what I did with this one. MR. MENTER-Yes. So it's tough to say. MR. BAPP-If that's what has to be done, I wouldn't have any problem, really, doing that. MR. TURNER-Well, if you meet the setbacks, you can withdraw it, or we can vote on it. If you want to try to go ahead and meet the setbacks, you can withdraw the application. MR. BAPP-Then what happens if I do that, and then they come. MR. TURNER-Then you have a right to come back. If we vote on it, it's denied. MR. MENTER-If you withdraw it and you go check your measurements and say, this isn't going to work, I can't make it happen, then you can come back and we can rehear it, but if we deny it, it's. MR. CARVIN-Then you can bring back an accurate map. MR. TURNER-We could table it, but you've only got 60 days. We could table the application and you could go home and investigate the possibility of turning the storage building as suggested, all right, and then within 60 days you have to come back and tell us yes or no, and then at that time, we'll vote on the application. If you say yes, you won't be back, you can work with it. If you say no and you've got to come back for the variance, then we'll have to vote on it. MR. MENTER-In other words, we're just saying, go home and check these things out and see if it'll work otherwise. MR. BAPP-The only thing is the weather conditions. I want to try to get it, at least the concrete. MR. TURNER-Yes, but I don't think you're going to get it. MR. MENTER-I think what's going to happen is, if we vote on it now, it's going to get turned down. - 26 - ',- ~ MR. TURNER-It's going to get turned down. I can tell you that right now. I can see it coming. So that's why I'd suggest to you, go home, get it done as soon as possible. MR. BAPP-What if I say that we'll gO the 20 feet from the back line? MR. TURNER-Then you're all set. You don't have to come back. MR. BAPP-What if I do that and the Town comes and says my leach field is too close? Do I come back? MS. CIPPERLY-Well, if you come in, if you want to table it, I don't know when the septic work was done there. MR. BAPP-Since '64. It's all been pumped. MR. TURNER-I know, but. MS. CIPPERLY-I'm just trying to figure out if we had any records of where the leachfield would be, but back that far, unless there's been work done on it in the last 10 years or so. MR. TURNER-What you might better do is table it, go home and look at it, and if you're satisfied you can work with what they've suggested, all right, then you just write a letter, or come in, write a letter to us explaining that you're withdrawing your application because you can meet the setbacks, and that's all we've got to have, then you're all set to go. MR. BAPP-Okay. I'll do that. MR. TURNER-So, with your permission, you want to table the application for 60 days? MR. BAPP-Yes. MR. TURNER-Okay. MQTION TO TABLE AREA VARIANCE NO. 63-1994 TROY BAPP, Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved for its adoption, seconded by Fred Ca r v in: For 60 days. The applicant will explore other possibilities to locate the storage shed in a location that won't violate the set.bac k . Duly adopted this 16th day of November, 1994, by the following vote: MR. TURNER-The tank has got to be 10 feet from the building. D Box has got to be 10 feet from the tank, and then leachfield. The your MR. MENTER-And I think the length in what is going into the system. of the leachfield is a factor Right? MR. TURNER-Bedroom size, but you're all set. Your system hasn't failed. So, once it fails, then the tank, you know, if you have to remove the tank, then you've got to put one in according to Code, and then it's based on bedroom size, determines the amount of leachfield that's required. MS. CIPPERLY-Yes, but if it's a real old system, who knows. MR. TURNER-Don't feel bad, they last a long time if you use them right. MS. CIPPERLY-I mean, as put in relation to the far as the distances, where the tank was trailer, and isn't necessarily 10 feet - 27 - '--' ---- from the trailer. MR. TURNER-No. That's right. It could be farther out. Okay. AYES: Mr. Maresco, Mr. Menter, Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Carvin, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE ABSENT: Mr. Ford USE VARIANCE NO. 64-1994 TYPE: UNLISTED LI-1A E. JAMES BARRETT OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE QUAKER ROAD APPLICANT PROPOSES A MIXED USE FACILITY INCLUDING TRUCK LEASING, TRUCK REPAIR, PLUS AUTO SALES, IN A LIGHT INDUSTRIAL ZONE, WHERE AUTO SALES IS NOT AN ALLOWED USE. RELIEF IS SOUGHT FROM SECTION 179-26D, PERMITTED USES IN LIGHT INDUSTRIAL ZONE. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) 11/9/94 TAX MAP NO. 110-1-1.23 LOT SIZE: 1.96 ACRES SECTION 179-26D CHARLES SCUDDER, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT MR. THOMAS-"At a meeting of the Warren County Planning Board held on the 9th day of November 1994, the above application for a Use Variance to allow for truck and auto leasing sales and repair of Hertz/Pensky was reviewed and the following action was taken. Recommendation to: Approve" Signed by Thomas Haley, Chairperson. MR. TURNER-Mr. Scudder. MR. SCUDDER-I think the application speaks statement that was just read. I guess if questions, we'd try to field them. for itself, and the the Board has some MR. TURNER-Well, tell us why you can't make a reasonable return on the facility as zoned, as a truck repair, without the auto sales. MR. SCUDDER-Well, the truck and the 50/50. I think Planning Board at the current business is configured such that auto leasing and related services are roughly that statement was made, I guess, before the one point. They need both. MR. TURNER-Is the old facility owned by Mr. Barrett. MR. SCUDDER-Well, Mr. Barrett's here. speak. I'm going to let him MR. TURNER-Okay. BILL BARRETT MR. BARRETT-Actually, I'm Bill Barrett. What was the question, again? I'm sorry. MR. TURNER-Is the facility you're in now, is that owned by you people? MR. BARRETT-Yes. MR. TURNER--So you could feasibly run the used car sales there and run the truck repair shop at the proposed site? MR. BARRETT-The whole idea of this venture is to modern building that's more efficient, and move operation from Dix Avenue to Quaker Road, and the vacant, or we'd sell it, or whatever. We would operation there. It would be too hard to maintain plants, with the additional manpower required. get a more the entire Dix Avenue be not have any two physical - 28 - ',,--- --' MR. CARVIN-If you were to, let me see, you have a truck repair, and also the truck sales. MR. BARRETT-On Dix Avenue? MR. CARVIN-Yes. MR. BARRETT-Car rentals. MR. CARVIN-And if you were to lose the auto or truck sales, you would say that would have an impact on your business of at least 50 percent? MR. BARRETT-A seveíe. Our rental operation, car side, is, the car sales are just an inherent part of the business. I buy cars for the rental busi ness and I have to sell the cars'. I n other words. my used car is generated from internally. I don't go out and go out and buy it. I sell my own fleet cars. So if I don't have a mechanism to sell the cars, I can't continue buying new cars. It just kind of flows down through. I don't have a car sale allowance over there on Quaker Road. MR. MENTER-What exactly happened with the zoning there? the line now? It's light industrial but. Where's MR. TURNER-It's down farther, down right next to Car Essentials. MR. MENTER-Okay. MS. CIPPERLY-Mazda is there by variance. industrial pa)"cel. That's a light MR. TURNER-Yes. MS. CIPPERLY-What is unique about this one, really, is they're looking for a mixed use. They're looking to retain light industrial use in the truck repair facility and also put a commercial use on the property, and since it's a vacant parcel. Ted, it seems more appropriate, maybe, to ask why they couldn't get a reasonable return on the parcel, rather than the facility. MR. TURNER-Would you care to answer that? Why you could make a reasonable return on the parcel? MR. BARRETT-You mean just sell the land? MR. TURNER-Just sell the land. MR. MENTER-Or utilize it in some way that you could make a reasonable return on it. DAN BARBER MR. BARBER-The present building is totally obsolete. MR. TURNER-I know it is. MR. BARBER-There's big physical problems there. The assumption was, 10 years ago when they bought the property was. they thought that it was zoned for this reason. Okay. It's not like we've changed in mid stream here, thinking that we would do trucks and then sell cars. MR. TURNER-I know. They've had a trailer on there with a sign on it for a long time. MR. BARBER-But this has been the plan for, like, 10 years, to go in here. but there's been a wrong assumption that it was commercial versus light industrial, which we didn't know until we were at a meeting of the Planning Staff, the Planning Board here. - 29 - -- -.../ Even the Planning Staff itself thought that that piece of property was Highway Commercial. MR. TURNER-I know they did. tonight. I read some of the minutes there MS. CIPPERLY-But if it were zoned commercial, then you'd still be here for a variance to do the light industrial. MR. BARBER-Right. MS. CIPPERLY-There is an advantage to this site. I don't know if, it's just always struck me that, having a rear access to it would help, as far as trying to put those two different uses on the site. MR. SCUDDER-Well, it helps enormously. The service road that goes into the Hewlett subdivision, like a horseshoe, went out onto Dix. It's a perfect rear access. It shows on this exhibit he)" e . MR. CARVIN-Do you do any heavy machinery repair or anything like that, or is it just trucks? MR. BARRETT-No, sir. Just cars and trucks. MR. CARVIN-Do you have any limousines or anything like that? ~1H. BARRETT -~~o . MR. CARVIN-No buses? MR. BARRETT-No. ~1R . TURNER-How many tractors do you gener all>' lease? MR. BARRETT-Tractors based in Glens Falls, no more than five. MR. TURNER-You lease five from Glens Falls? MR. BARRETT-Yes. MR. TURNER-How many rental cars do you have? MR. BARRETT-Based in Glens Falls, 40. MR. TURNER-So when they come in there, they their tractors, after they've leased them and work, they drop the trailers there, as a rule? come in there with need some service MR. BARRETT-We haven't had any problems with storage of trailers. We will service the power (lost word). The trailers are usually left off site, at warehouses around the area. MR. TURNER-Yes. That's what I'm getting at. When they come in, they come in with just a tractor? MR. BARRETT-Yes. They come in with just a tractor. MR. TURNER-Did you buy this from Hewlett's? MR. BARRETT-Yes. MR. TURNER-How long ago did you purchase it, 10 years ago? MR. BARRETT-I'm going to say '84, '83. MR. TURNER-I know it's been a while. It's not self created. See, I think, if I'm not mistaken, I think Hewlett owned, pretty much, all of the property from where this existing place is down - 30 - '-- -../ to where Car Essentials is, right up to the light industrial line. I think he owned, pretty much, all of that, because, he owned where the Mazda dealership is, the Langdon. MS. CIPPERLY-He still owns that corner piece, that point. MR. TURNER-Yes. He owns that corner piece. So he owned that whole parcel, and I know, through the years, he's tried to sell it light industrial. He's been in here for several variances, including the Mazda dealership, and I think the body shop, and Car Essentials. MR. MENTER-So there has been a problem in marketing that light industrial. MR. TURNER-Yes, turning the property over, but, of course, they bought it in '84, and '84, I don't think that was light industrial then. I think in '84, Powhida's farm is about where your piece of property is, pretty close to it, or where, they used to own that. That was the powhida farm, and the Sullivan farm. MR. BARRETT-That's correct. MR. BARBER-The (lost word) has always been to do this, ever since '84. It has not changed, cars and light trucks. MR. TURNER-Yes. I know they talked about it a long time. I remembe)- that. MR. MARESCO-When you say "light trucks", there is a weight limit that you'd be having on the size of the trucks that you'll be wor ki ng on? MR. BARRETT-Basically our own fleet trucks. (lost word) 18 foot. MR. TURNER-Yes, but don't you lease smaller trucks? lease to Kaymr? Don't you MR. BARRETT-We did, but we no longer. trucks. They had small pickup MR. CARVIN-Now the auto sales, will these all be used cars, will they, or will there be some new? MR. BARRETT-There will be no new cars. There will be recent model used cars. Again, my own fleet, and you haven't asked the question, but I'll volunteer it. We won't have 100 used cars for sale. July and August, I'll have zero. I may have, at the most, hopefully, not many more than 15 or 20 that are available for the folks to buy. I'd just like to have that opportunity, I've got to have that opportunity to sell a car to the public from that facility. MR. TURNER-You only lease five tractors? MR. BARRETT-In Glens Falls. We have a facility in Albany. MR. TURNER-Okay. Are you going to bring any of those vehicles up here to service them? MR. BARRETT ··No . MR. TURNER-Do you have a service facility in Albany? MR. BARRETT-Yes. MR. CARVIN-All right. Are you affiliated with Hertz/Pensky? MR. BARRETT-Yes. - 31 - --- -- MS. CIPPERLY-Could I ask where be placed on the site? Would Road where you've got spaces? car lot from the front? those cars that are for sale would it be in this strip along Quaker Is this going to look like a used MR. BARRETT-Well, I would say that the cars that are available to the public, the cars that are available to sell, for display along the Quaker Road side. MR. TURNER-They would have to be to be noticed. MR. BARRETT-So, as the cars become available for resale, we'd like to park them along the Quaker Road side. MR. KARPELES-Do you advertise that these cars are for sale? MR. BARRETT-Yes. MR. MARESCO-You own ones for sale there, all the cars, though, don't you have all the five, six? MR. BARRETT-Theoretically, (lost word) any time, but it doesn't always work that way. I buy a car, I can't afford to sell it until it's been a week or at least six month and maybe a year. MS. CIPPERLY-Charlie, were you given a number of parking spaces that this size building would require, by the Planning Board, or by Scott? MR. SCUDDER-I don't think so, but I think we meet the criteria, though. MR. TURNER-Are you going to do some calculations, Sue? Because I've got a question I wanted to ask him, if you're going to do some. MS. CIPPERLY-Well, under commercial, which really mayor may not apply to a hybrid type thing like this, there's not an easy answer for that. That's why I was wondering if somebody had given them a number. My concern was that if, depending on how many cars he had for sale, he could be taking up spaces that were required by the Planning Board. MR. TURNER-Yes. He says he carries an inventory of 40 cars. So how many, is that a correct assumption or not? MR. BARRETT-Well, yes. Again, in this business. MR. TURNER-I know sometimes I've been down to the other place and I know you had 40 or more. MR. BARRETT-When my yard's full, I'm starving. When it's empty, I'm making money. So, hopefully, the yard's empty, but there will be times that we have an excess of inventory, but, when that happens, we have other cities that we operate. We disperse the fleet continually, and if I have too many vehicles in Glens Falls, they go. We don't keep them. MR. TURNER-Yes, and if they have too many in Albany, they bring them up to you, right? MR. BARRETT-Not trucks, no. Cars. They're constantly rotating. We have no cars in Albany. MR. TURNER-I know. How many would you say transpires in the course of, how many do you move around, in a given time? MR. BARRETT-We have a 180 car fleet. MR. TURNER-Okay. So how many do you move around? - 32 - ~ '-- MR. BARRETT-Probably 50 a month, between the cities. MR. CARVIN-Are you going to move from the other location to this location, you said? Okay. How much bigger is this location than your current location? MR. BARRETT-The same size. MR. CARVIN-About the same size. MR. BARBER-The building is, basically, bigger. compact. It's more MR. CARVIN-So it's laid out better than the other one? MR. BARBER-Yes. MR. TURNER-Yes. The other building, originally, was a gas station, and I think they added on to the back of it and put that big bay on it, as I remember it, and you drive in one end and out the other end of the big bay. MR. BARBER-The problem is sewage and drainage problems. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. BARBER-The building really needs to be totally rebuilt down there, the present building. MR. BARRETT-We looked at that option, but the cost of it just. MR. TURNER-I know, and right up where you park the cars on the hill, that ledge right there goes across the road, it goes up on your property? Doesn't that ledge go across the road right there, right between you and Red Star? MR. BARRETT-Yes. MR. CARVIN-This would be a much more visible location, too. MR. TURNER-Yes. It would be a neater operation. MR. BARBER-Yes. MR. KARPELES-Could we back up a little bit? I think I'm gathering what your business is here and there, but could you just kind of explain, start from the beginning and explain what your business is, because it seems different than anything I've ever heard of before. It's a mixture of car leasing and truck repair and so forth? Could you explain it to us? MR. BARRETT-I'll try. We've been around since 1954 and on Dix Avenue since 1967, and we are rental and leasing agency for both cars and trucks, doing business as Hertz Car Rental and Pensky Truck Rental, and we have a business called Barrett Auto Sales, that's our vehicle to sell and fleet to the public, just to keep things going. So, basically, there's three different things under one hat. MR. KARPELES-But the only trucks you repair are your own trucks. Is that right? MR. BARRETT-We have our own fleet of trucks that we have to maintain, and we have leased trucks that we have to maintain, long term lease. We have short term rental trucks and long term lease trucks that we maintain. We do have the idea of generating additional business in this new facility to the public, outside repair, if that comes our way. We're not going to solicit it, but if it comes our way, we can probably accommodated it better than at this facility. - 33 - '--' MR. KARPELES-Both trucks and cars? MR. BARRETT-No, trucks. MR. KARPELES-Just trucks. MR. BARRETT-No outside car business at all. our own to keep us busy, as far as cars. We have enough of MR. KARPELES-But you do maintain your own cars there, too? MR. BARRETT-Yes, we do. MR. TURNER-So you're going to solicit outside truck repair for people that don't have the facilities to repair their truck? You're going to be like, kind of like LeRoy Holding? Is that what you're going after? MR. BARRETT-No. He doesn't do a lot of outside repair. He got rid of that, LeRoy Holding. He has a good leasing business, which we can't seem to expand and that's on Dix Avenue, okay. We have to have a modern facility to go out and get the truck leasing side of it, and this is going to be our whole approach in this facility here. As far as outside repair, it would be nominal, if any, basically, because hopefully we're going to generate enough leasing business here that we wouldn't have time to (lost word). MR. CARVIN-Yes. Well, the truck repair is an approved use. That doesn't really, that's not really a factor. MR. TURNER-Right. That's an approved use. It's just the car sales. You're probably the only one that kind of does that, that does the trucking and has a leasing, car leasing business along with the trucking. I don't know of anybody else that does that. Most of the other guys are dealers. MR. BARRETT-Right. It's kind of unique. MR. TURNER-Yes. You're a different operation all together. MR. CARVIN-See, if you had passenger limousines, there'd be no problem, but I can't give you the difference between a passenger limousine rental and a car rental. I mean, to me, they're essentially the same, but, you know, and/or bus storage. I mean, if you were storing buses, there's no problem. I don't have a problem with your application, but what we have to do is develop certain aspects, so that we can grant a variance. In other words, you have to show us a, basically, financial hardship, and I think that you've demonstrated that. In other words, your business is dependent, it's a hand and glove situation. So, I mean, if you lose one, you're going to lose a substantial amount of revenue. Is it going to cause a difference in the neighborhood, and again, that answer there is no, because right up the street there's similar situations. So you're not going to alter it. Has the hardship been self created, and, certainly, it's not a self created hardship because it's a hardship of the zone. I mean, I think if it was a Highway Commercial they could probably do this. MR. TURNER-Well, you can almost compare it to, like, K-Mart. MR. CARVIN-Yes. MR. TURNER-K-Mart is kind of that they have here. This guy the business he has because he depends on the other, and they unique in the sense of the store is kind of unique in the sense of has a two stage operation that one go hand in hand. MR. KARPELES-What kind of repair work do you do? I mean, is it - 34 - - -../ just oil changes and things like that, or do you do extensive repairs on the trucks? MR. BARRETT-We can do everything except major diesel tear down in frame nature. We don't, that goes to Albany. MR. KARPELES-How about body work? MR. BARRETT-No body work at all. We send all that out. MR. KARPELES-And how many people do you employ, or do you anticipate employing, on this site? MR. BARRETT-Currently we have about 15. MR. KARPELES-That's what you figure you will end up with? MR. BARRETT-Yes. MR. KARPELES-And how many do you have now? MR. BARRETT-We have two mechanics and five office employees, about seven or eight. MR. KARPELES-You're going to double your workforce then? MR. BARRETT-Hopefully. MR. TURNER-Do you keep any excess tractors there? MR. BARRETT-No. MR. TURNER-In case one breaks down out on the road, you've got to go get it and you're going to lease them another one? MR. BARRETT-Albany. Albany's only 45 miles down. MS. CIPPERLY-There's, as you just mentioned, an Albany facility in your, could you explain? Are you part of a larger system, or do you own, also, the Albany facilities? MR. BARRETT-We're a licensee of the Pensky Truck Rental, and back in '81, '82 we started operations in Albany, New York, which is home by Barrett's, d/b/a pensky's. MS. CIPPERLY-The reason I'm asking that, is it really necessary to sell the cars at this location, or do you have another one in your system that you could sell these at? MR. BARRETT-I'm sorry. Albany is strictly trucks. We don't have the rights for a car operation in Albany. Glens Falls has been car sales for years. We'd like to keep it that way. MR. TURNER-Mr. Barrett, I don't want to keep beating a dead horse to death, but any trailers going to be on site? Are you going to lease trailers along with tractors? MR. BARRETT-No. We are out of the trailer business. MR. TURNER-Are you going to have any trailers there on the site? MR. BARRETT-Honest answer? If there's a trailer there, it will be there, truck, service, probably no more than six hours, at the most. MR. TURNER-Okay, the trailer that's there will be associated with the trucks that are there. MR. BARRETT-No. We don't own any, the Barrett Company does not own any trailers at all, and the only trailer that may come in - 35 - there would be the, I'm trying to think of the last time I had a trailer at Dix Avenue, for any reason at all. There hasn't been a trailer at Dix Avenue since, except one I've got parked there. MR. TURNER-The one with the signs on it? MR. BARRETT-Yes. No. There will not this facility. I wouldn't want them trailers, and tractors are, again, expensive pieces of equipment. If trouble. They're on the road. be any there. these they're trailers parked on We don't lease things are very sitting, I'm in MS. CIPPERLY-Was your plan to have the truck business, or to go out this service road part and the car leasing use the front, or were you planning to use the whole site for both? MR. BARRETT-No. We'd separate it for visual impact. Cars would be in the front and on the east side. Trucks are out back. The idea is to scoot out the rear to Dix for access. MR. MENTER-You still need a site plan, right? MS. CIPPERLY-They were sort of then this question came up. So one. going through that process, and they're sort of on hold in that MR. MARESCO-Do you sell all used trucks now at the old facility, you sell trucks there? MR. BARRETT-We sell trucks at, yes, we do, at Dix Avenue. We have trucks for sale. MR. MARESCO-Will you be doing that here also? MR. BARRETT-Yes. MR. MARESCO-Will they be outside with the cars? MR. BARRETT-They will be in the back. MR. MARESCO-They won't be out front where you'll be having the cars with the For Sale sign? MR. BARRETT-I don't think so. MR. MARESCO-Trucks won't be, like they are now, they're out visible. MR. BARRETT-They'll be in the rear of the building, where the trucks are. MR. MARESCO-How will potential customers know those trucks are for sale? MR. BARRETT-Through advertising in the paper, trucks for sale. MR. MARESCO-The 22 spaces that are up here, are those marked off, those are where you're going to put the cars that are for sale? MR. BARBER-Well, ideally, they were going to be (lost word) to the trucks on Quaker Road. MR. MARESCO-But were those two spaces put in for customer parking, that's one of my concerns? MR. BARBER-No. MR. MARESCO-They're not? parking? Were those 22 spaces for customer - 36 - .- -- ~ MR. BARRETT-No. MR. MARESCO-Those are for vehicles that have been? MR. BARBER-For their lease and rental vehicles. MR. BARRETT-I want to express one point here. People never have cars there that are, well, unplated, for sale, okay. We're kind of different. The old days of taking 50 cars out and parking them for sale and waiting for a sale are gone. We keep these plated, okay, licensed, registered, because if they don't sell today, I'll rent them tomorrow, and vice versa. So, there'll be a red Ford there today and a green one tomorrow, but they're all fa)- sale. MR. TURNER-In the 22 spaces you just described, are you going to park some of your rental trucks there, also, along with your rental cars? MR. 8ARRETT-I don't (lost word) at all. )·eason fa)- it. I wouldn't see any MR. TURNER-Okay. MR. BARRETT-The trucks can be seen, visually, from Quaker, as you go by. MR. TURNER-How many bays do you propose to have in the garage? It's 82 feet, the bays? MR. BARBER-Yes, six bays. MR. TURNER-Six bays, twenty foot bays? MR. BARBER-Yes, that's correct. The building is 71 foot. MS. CIPPERLY-Do customers typically leave their car when they lease a truck, or do they? MR. BARRETT-That i~ very variable. Most people will not leave their car on our facility. We deliver a lot of our cars, deliver a pickup. MR. KARPELES-Is it both long term leasing and short term leasing? MR. BARRETT-Yes. MR. KARPELES-So you might lease a car for a year, for the life of the car, I guess? MR. BARRETT-Well, usually for no more than two years. MR. KARPELES-We keep talking about trucks. trucks, all different sizes? ¡'-Iow big are the MR. BARRETT-Anywhere from a pickup truck to a 24 foot minivan. MR. TURNER-Flat bed trucks? You rent them, I know that. MR. BARRETT-Yes. MR. KARPELES-So you do have tractors, too, for rent? MR. BARRETT-Yes. MR. KARPELES-And you sell those also? MR. BARRETT-Yes, but again, the majority of the heavy truck business is in Albany New York. - 37 - -- MR. TURNER-Do you handle any specific tractor? MR. BARRETT-Mostly white GMC trucks, Kenworth. MR. TURNER-Kenworth, yes. further questions? Okay. Does anyone else have any MS. CIPPERLY-What portion of your business would you attribute to car sales, versus the truck? MR. BARRETT-We will sell an average 100 cars a year. It's not a great volume. MR. TURNER-What's the ratio of your rental business, truck rental business? MR. BARRETT-Fifty/fifty, about half and half, cars and trucks. MR. TURNER-That's all types of trucks. That's your pickups. That's your one ton trucks. That's your flat beds. That's your tractors. MR. MENTER-I don't have any problem with it, I don't think. Certainly, to me, it certainly meets the, you know, fits in well with the neighborhood, and it's certainly unique enough. MR. TURNER-Right in back of them, as I indicated before, right in back of them is the other trucking outfit there, LeRoy Holding, and they rent a major proportion of the property owned by Roger and Gerald Hewlett, and they just expanded. I think they're building inside. I think they've done some renovation inside, and they do a major rental business, like Mr. Barrett does, only I think do maybe a little bit more. MR. BARRETT-They do. He's all trucks. MR. TURNER-He's all trucks. Right. MR. MARESCO-I don't have a problem with granting the variance. I do have a concern, though, that I would like to address, is I just visualize, being your on Quaker, you're right on Quaker Road with this, as I pass by your facility many times, I just visualize all these used trucks and cars with signs out there, and I'm just concerned about the aesthetic appearance of what this is going to look like. MR. BARRETT-We don't usually put signs on the cars. MR. MARESCO-I've seen, I thought I saw, you know, For Sale, you know $1395, or whatever. Will there be landscaping out there? I have a concern about the look, the appearance of it, what it's going to look like. I'm not saying you run a shabby business, but it's on a very visible piece of property, which is going to be, obviously, much more visible to the public now. 1'1R . TURNER-Have you been in front of the Beautification Committee yet? MR. BARBER-Yes, we have. MR. TURNER-What did they ì" ecomme nd for? MR. BARBER-What's on the site plan right there. A series of trees and grass and plants near the building, etc. We were approved with that a couple of months ago. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. SCUDDER-Here's the planting schedule, over here. MR. THOMAS-Niagara Mohawk's going to love you putting those trees - 38 - '-' -..-' right under that power line. They better be real dwarf. MS. CIPPERLY-He works for Niagara Mohawk. MR. SCUDDER-They're going to be coniferous and deciduous. Coniferous, of course, you can trim. MR. THOMAS-What's this right here? MR. SCUDDER-That is a dumpster. It's going to have a little fence around it and some shrubbery around the fence. MR. MENTER-I think the bulk of the, obviously, the large truck parking is out back. The access out back is perfect for that. I think it's laid out for cars up front and the trucks in the back. MR. TURNER-The access road is available to everyone that's in there, right? MR. BARRETT-Yes. MR. KARPELES-The basic reasons why you're moving is to modernize your facilities and get more visibility? MR. BARRETT-We've just outgrown Dix Avenue. MR. BARBER-And sewer, drainage problems, structural problems, etc. MR. TURNER-I don't have a problem with it. Do you? MR. CARVIN-Lets move it. MR. TURNER-All right. Okay. I'll open the public hearing. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED NO COMMENT PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED MR. TURNER-Discussion? Tony, are you satisfied with the concerns you raised? MR. MARESCO-I think so. Yes. MR. MENTER-I'm fine with it. MR. KARPELES-Yes, no problem. MR. TURNER-I know Fred is. I am. Okay. Lets move it. MOTION TO APPROVE USE VARIANCE NO, 64-1994 E. JAMES BARRETT, Introduced by Fred Carvin who moved for its adoption, seconded by Theodore Turner: The applicant is proposing a mixed use facility which will include truck leasing, truck repair, plus auto sales in a Light Industrial Zone, where auto sales is not an allowed use. I would grant the applicant relief from Section 179-26D, permitted uses in a Light Industrial zone, to include the auto sales. The applicant has demonstrated that a reasonable return would not be possible, and that the hardship relating to the property is unique and does not apply to a substantial portion in the district or neighborhood, and that by granting of this variance, we would not be altering the essential character of the neighborhood, and that this hardship has not been self created. Also by this Use Variance we would be able to address the unnecessary hardship proven by the applicant and at the same time - 39 - '--' preserve and protect the character of the neighborhood, the health, safety and welfare of the community. The Short EAF shows no negative impact. Duly adopted this 16th day of November, 1994, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Maresco, Mr. Menter, Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Carvin, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE ABSENT: Mr. Ford MR. TURNER-Bill, that trailer down there with all the signs on it, that's history, right. MR. BARRETT-Thank my brother for that one. That will. MR. TURNER-You're safe. Hey, guys, before we go, Sign Variance application No. 55-1994, from Gibraltar Realty, "I spoke to Sue Cipperly in the Planning Office today. She advised me that the Sign Variance application for the Glens Falls Queen Diner has been tabled. Would you kindly notify me when this matter shall again come before the Board. Gibraltar Management" I thought they indicated they were against, that? October the 20th, that's a long time ago. Was that the one that they sent the last time? No. We tabled that. MS. CIPPERLY-Well, I had it, tentatively, on the 30th, but I haven't seen this letter. I was going to call them and ask. MR. THOMAS-The 30th of November? MS. CIPPERLY-Yes. MR. TURNER-We got a letter, Bliebtrey's thing with DiPalma is still on hold. Paul hasn't gotten to it yet. I asked him about it, and he said he hasn't been able to get to it, and in reference to the Martindale zoning variance, from Paul Dusek, "I referred the above captioned matter annexed hereto, please find a copy of a letter which extends the time in which the Martindales have to bring an Article 78 proceeding against the Zoning Board of Appeals. As we were down to just a few days and there was no meeting with the Board available, I felt it was important to hold off a lawsuit to give us an opportunity to discuss this matter further. I trust you will agree and I look forward to meeting with the Board at your convenience to discuss the matter." And this is to Michael E. Cusack, Cooper, Irving, Savage, Nolan, and Heller, 39 North Pearl Street, Albany, New York, who is the lawyer for the applicant. MS. CIPPERLY-The situation on the Martindale one, that's the one that you did a resolution that it was past the 60 day filing for an appeal. MR. TURNER-Right. MS. CIPPERLY-Paul Dusek informed, afterwards, when contacted by their attorney, that they should have been present, at least, I guess, during that determination, so it has to go back on the agenda. I have to talk to Paul about whether you have to vote to put it back on the agenda as an item or what the procedure is. MR. MENTER-Apparently, we're to get together with Paul, anyway, on this thing. MR. TURNER-Yes. I spoke to Paul about it, and he said that, you know, it was a misunderstanding bet~"een what he thought he said to Sue and what Sue thought he said. So I guess that's where it - 40 - -- -.-/ happened, but attorney and so back on. anyway, he said that he had talked to they waived this proceeding until we get their them MR. CARVIN-To determine if they're beyond the 60 days, right? MR. TURNER-Right. MR. MENTER-That's the issue. MR. CARVIN-I didn't know we had to notify, that's not a notification system. MR. TURNER-Well, an appeal is, yes. An appeal is a notification, you have to notify them. MS. CIPPERLY-Apparently, they should have been put on the agenda as an item and then, at that time, if you wish to. MR. MENTER-As an item for discussion. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. CARVIN-But about, ì-ight? it's not something that we notify There's no public discussion. the public MR. MENTER-Yes. It seems like the decision is made when it's gì· anted. MR. TURNER-It wasn't an appeal. It was an interpretation. MR. CARVIN-I don't see where we have to have public hearing on that. MR. TURNER-No. Well, I know, but it wasn't an appeal. It was an interpretation. That's all it was. Did the time frame lapse or didn't it lapse? Do we agree with what's in the Ordinance, or didn't we agree with what's in the Ordinance? MS. CIPPERLY-Another thing that Paul mentioned was that their attorneys said they were appealing the enforcement action, rather than the decision. As I said, better talk to Paul about it, because I'm confused. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. CARVIN-Well, I think away, because it sounds slowly out of control. we should get Paul and get that squared like it's something that's spiraling MR. MENTER-Unless there's something that I don't understand. MR. TURNER-It just delays the enforcement action that's required on their property on the Farm To Market Road, at this point. They could still go ahead, do what they claim they've been doing there until this is decided, that's the way ~ see it. MR. MENTER-From their standpoint, yes. MR. TURNER-From their standpoint. MR. MENTER-I'm not sure I understand Paul's standpoint. MR. CARVIN-They filed an appeal, right? MR. TURNEF~-No. The>' filed an in"terpretation. That's what IrJe got it as, was an interpretation, not an appeal. MR. CARVIN-Of the enforcement, right? In other words, they're challengi ng. - 41 - '-' MR. TURNER-Remember, we sent them a letter, we met with them? MR. CARVIN-Like, in February, right? MR. TURNER-Yes, right. MR. CARVIN-Okay, and then they filed a challenge to that, right? In other words, which was. MR. TURNER-They wanted to appeal his decision he made in February, and they were too late. MR. CARVIN-Right, an Article 78. Are they filing an Article 78? ¡VIR. TURNER-Against us if we don't hear it. ~1R . CARVIN-On what grounds? MR. TURNER-I don't know. MR. CARVIN-Well, I don't either. MR. TURNER-All I'm saying to you is, when we read that letter, that indicated that he had discussion with him, as far as enforcement went, over the issues up there on the piece of property. All right. So then they wanted to appeal it, but then by the time the lawyer got a hold of it and it got back to here, the 60 days were up. MR. CARVIN-That's correct, and our asked us to interpret whether the they were up. interpretation. 60 days were up, I mean, they and we said MR. MENTER-Yes. Nothing affects that 60 days. MR. CARVIN-But nothing in there indicates that we have to publicly advertise, and now he's saying that they should have been present to partake in that discussion? MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. CARVIN-I don't see where there was any discussion. MR. TURNER-I know Paul wants us to give their lawyer consideration and let him talk about it, get it over with. MS. CIPPERLY-My problem is not knowing how much time to allocate to it. I sort of figured we could do it on the 30th if it's a vote to rehear, or whatever. MR. CARVIN-I also think it opens up a real Pandora's Box. I mean, any time that an enforcement goes out, I mean, this thing, we're going to be constantly rehearing all of cases. MR. MENTER-Well, it's not the enforcement. MR. TURNER-It's the appeal of his determination of what can occur the~-e. MR. MENTER-Right. MR. TURNER-But that isn 't ~.Jhat \1Q. got. MS. CIPPERLY-You can have that discussion in front of their attorney, where he can participate. MR. TURNER-Yes. That's what he wants. He wants to be heard. MS. CIPPERLY-Paul Dusek referred to Due Process, and I think that's where. - 42 - '",--, ---' MR. TURNER-That's what he wants. He wants to go through us. MR. MENTER-Because it is an appeal. MR. CARVIN-Well, it seems to me that it went through the process and they just went beyond the 60 days, so that they had their 60 day opportunity to file the Article 78 on the original determination. MR. MENTER-But they do have a right to appeal or ask for a clarification of the Ordinance, or whatever it is, and once they do that appeal, then it becomes an agenda item. MR. TURNER-They have a right to appeal Jim's determination as to what can occur up there. They asked us, what I'm getting at, they asked us in that resolution, to determine whether, in fact, the 60 days was up or wasn't up, and it was, and that's all we acted on. Paul said to me that we should give them the opportunity to speak, and get it over with, because it isn't going to go away. MR. KARPELES-Well, is Paul going to talk to us? MR. TURNER-He'll be here when it comes. MR. CARVIN-Our next meeting won't be until, what, the 30th? MR. TURNER-The 30th. MR. CARVIN-Are we on time to have all the material for the Ma1- i na? MR. TURNER-We'll have it Monday. The minutes we're supposed to have Monday'. MS. CIPPERLY--I've advised Maria that even if she doesn't have all of the minutes done by the end of this week, that if she at least gets the parts where the attorneys were giving their parts, then maybe the reading of the letters and that sort of thing can get to you late'r. MR. CARVIN-Yes. I letters to the Board, have. think it's imperative that we have those so that there's no question that we don't MS. CIPPERLY-Right. We'll give you copies of all the letters that were not read into the minutes. If you want copies of them, IrJe can do that. MR. CARVIN-I think, just to be on the safe side, yoU might give us copies of all of them. MR. i"1ENTER--You knolrJ what else I thi n k I'd like to have is the ' 88 minutes. MR. TURNER-Yes, we need them. MR. MARESCO-Are you going to gi\",-e us copies of that? i"1S. CIPPERLY-If you want them. MR. TURNER-I'll tell you about the '88. The '88 was 4,000 and some odd square feet bigger. MR. MENTER-Than this one? MR. TURNER-Yes, and I'll remind me, because my one and the chance of a fire. tell you, Mr. O'Connor doesn't have to concern was the size of the facility, - 43 - ""- MR. MARESCO-The chance of a fire is pretty real with all that storage of 9as. MS. CIPPERLY-So you want the '88 minutes? MR. TURNER-Yes. We need the '88 minutes. MR. MENTER-On the Mooring Post. MR. TURNER-Okay. MS. CIPPERLY-On the 30th, the agenda items, Bliebtrey was on for the 30th, and I, that is now into December, because Paul hasn't, that's why we were able to put the Mooring Post on the 30th. There were two other items. One is the Smith application, that had to do with the County on West Mountain Road. He's been unable to get an answer out of the County. So he's coming back to get a decision on that variance, which was a renewal situation, and the other is the Lynch, over on Ridge Road. MR. CARVIN-That's coming back, the Bank? MS. CIPPERLY-The Bank has since sold their portion of the property. Rather than discuss that now, you'll see that on the 30th, but we're trying to get that resolved, and the other one that I had on was the, that Queen Diner sign. I have to call Gibraltar Management and ask them if they've got their situation resolved, because they had to check their contract with Wal-Mart on that. So that's what's on the agendas, the Mooring Post, and, four all together, if the sign one is on. On motion meeting was adjourned. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED, Theodore Turner, Chairman - 44 -