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1995-10-25 ) F{fr; rfJpv QUEENSBURY ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS SECOND REGULAR MEETING OCTOBER 25,1995 INDEX Area Variance No. 78-1995 Tax Map No. 8-2-6 Ronald Benjamin 1. Use Variance No. 79-1995 Tax Map No. 23-1-29.1 William Bunting 8. Use Variance No. 80-1995 Tax Map No. 126-1-60, 61, 62 Glens Falls Kennel Club 13. Sign Variance No. 81-1995 Tax Map No. 103-1-1.2 GMRI/Darden Restaurants, Inc. 23. Red Lobster THESE ARE NOT OFFICIALLY ADOPTED MINUTES AND ARE SUBJECT TO BOARD AND STAFF REVISIONS. REVISIONS WILL APPEAR ON THE FOLLOWING MONTHS MINUTES (IF ANY) AND WILL STATE SUCH APPROVAL OF SAID MINUTES. '- - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 10/25/95) QUEENSBURY ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS SECOND REGULAR MEETING OCTOBER 25, 1995 7:00 P.M. MEMBERS PRESENT FRED CARVIN, CHAIRMAN CHRIS THOMAS, SECRETARY THOI'1AS FORD WILLIAM GREEN ROBERT KARPELES MEMBERS ABSENT DAVID MENTER PLANNER-SUSAN CIPPERLY STENOGRAPHER-MARIA GAGLIARDI NEW BUSINESS: AREA VARIANCE NO. 78-1995 RONALD BENJAMIN WR-1A CEA OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE 1261 ASSEMBLY POINT ROAD, AT SHARP BEND APPLICANT PROPOSES A 588 SQUARE FOOT EXPANSION TO A HOUSE WHICH IS CURRENTLY 1,176 SQUARE FEET. APPLICANT PROPOSES TO EXPAND AN EXISTING DECK, WHICH WILL REQUIRE RELIEF FROM THE 75-FOOT SHORELINE SETBACK REQUIRED BY SECTION 179-60, AS WELL AS THE SETBACK REQUIREMENTS OF SECTION 179-16C. (ADIRONDACK PARK AGENCY) (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) 10/11/95 TAX MAP NO. 8-2-6 LOT SIZE: 0.21 ACRES SECTION 179-60, 179-16C CHARLES JOHNSON, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT MR. THOMAS-"At a meet.ing of the Warren County Planning Board, held on the 11th day of October 1995, the above application for an Area Variance for the addition of a 580 square foot. of second floor to an existing 1,175 square foot single story residence was reviewed, and the following action was taken, Recommendation to: Return Comments: No action could be taken since a majority vote could not be achieved." Signed by C. Powel South, Chairperson. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Is there anything significant that you would care to add to your applicat.ion? MR. JOHNSON-You all have the color photograph. I just wanted to review, the portion of the deck across the front is being removed, in an attempt to get the house farther away from the lake than it already is. It currently sits about 11 feet. off the water line. However, it's a quick 20 feet above the water. So the applicant is sympathetic to the appearance from the lake. Trying to remove this deck brings the house further away from the water, a little less noticeable. The intent with the design of the second floor, it's going to be a master bedroom and bath. The concept is to, again, maintain a roof line edge, and begin to keep the design, again, low scale and blending with the surrounding scale of the existing houses. That's the proposal. My name is Charles Johnson. I'm with Paradox Design Architects. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Thank you. Okay. Does everybody on the Board understand what the applicant is requesting? MR. FORD-Can we get clarificat.ion on the actual square footage of the expansion? I have seen 588 and 580. MR. JOHNSON-There was a typo in the application. I believe the 588 is the maximum that, the 50 percent increase of footprint. - 1 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 10/25/95) That's what the still a little 588. 588 is. The design IS not set. in stone. It's gelling, but I just maxed out the application at MR. KARPELES-What's the relief necessary? for relief from? What are you looking MR. JOHNSON-The existing setback. MR. CARVIN-Shoreline setback. MS. CIPPERLY-He's removing a portion of the deck along the front, but. then filling in corners of the deck. MR. FORD-With more decking? MR. JOHNSON-With more decking. What we've simply done is kind of taken a zig zag deck that follows the profile of the house. We've taken two points, and just drawn a straight line, a diagonal line and filled in the remainder. So we're not really encroaching closer to the lake. MR. FORD-Is that a large beech? Is that what that is in front of the house? MR. JOHNSON-It's a boat house. MR. FORD-No. The beech. It's a tree. MR. JOHNSON-In this soil? MR. FORD-Yes. MR. JOHNSON-That tree grows up out of some undeveloped shoreline area, brush. There's no beach there. MR. FORD-I thought it's a beech tree, like a pine tree. MR. JOHNSON-I'm sorry. MR. FORD-Is that going to remain? MR. JOHNSON-Yes, it IS, and that decking that's around it is going to be removed as well. MR. GREEN-That closed in porch that's out there now, that's over the open space underneath, your addition is not going to be over that area? MR. JOHNSON-It will be. I mean, the actual addition, the new roof area will begin over t.hat portion of the existing home. MR. GREEN-Over the porch area, you're saying? MR. JOHNSON-Yes. MR. GREEN-Because on your drawing here, it looks as though it's going to come right. up, you know, to the back of that porch area. MR. JOHNSON-Correct. We're going to put a new roof over this, but the actual living space will not come over the top of that. MR. GREEN-Okay. MR. FORD-What is the height of that peak of the addition? MR. JOHNSON-Currently, I think the zoning allows 35 feet. We're going to be below that. - 2 - - -/ (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 10/25/95) MR. FORD-How much? MR. JOHNSON-I'm estimating right now, again, I don't have the accurat.e measurements down t.o grade, about 30 feet. It might be 32 when we get all done, but it's right around 30 feet. MR. CARVIN-How high is the house currently? MR. JOHNSON-It's about an eight foot exposed basement, eight feet of first floor, and probably about five feet of roof area. So it's about 21 feet. MR. CARVIN-So you're going up by approximately 9 feet, maybe 10, about. a third, and you classify this as a single story house. Is that correct? MR. JOHNSON-Right now? MR. CARVIN-Yes. MR. JOHNSON-Correct. MR. CARVIN-Is that downstairs finished, the basement? MR. JOHNSON-Yes, it is. He's purchased the house with it finished as a family room, recreation room. MR. FORD-So that's living space? MR. JOHNSON-That was not calculated in the total. I just calculated the first floor. So there's actually more living space in the house, but I've only counted the first floor level. MR. CARVIN-Unfortunately, none of us had an opportunity to get out to the house, as far as I know. MR. GREEN-I was out. there. MR. KARPELES-I went out. I couldn't get in. MR. CARVIN-Yes. I went out. I couldn't either. MR. KARPELES-The gate was locked. MR. JOHNSON-Really? MR. KARPELES-Yes. So I didn't see it. MR. FORD-I got there before they locked it.. MR. CARVIN-Okay. The house, does it set in the hill? Is this the only exposed wall, or are there windows or a wall on the side that's exposed? MR. JOHNSON-The grade goes back up on both ends. MR. CARVIN-And it does appear that there is a door. I guess, is this a door right here? MR. JOHNSON-Yes, it is. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Any other questions, gentlemen? MR. GREEN-So is there going to be any major renovation to the existing first floor now? MR. JOHNSON-The kitchen will be remodeled, but that's really the extent of the first floor. - 3 - (Queensbury Z8A Meeting 10/25/95) MR. FORD-Same question for the basement area. MR. JOHNSON-No change whatsoever. MR. CARVIN-If there's no other questions, I'll open up the public hearing. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED ENOCH ZYLOWSKI MR. ZYLOWSKI-I'd like to review it and see just what it is, because I couldn't. hear just what he was saying. MR. CARVIN-Okay. MR. ZYLOWSKI-Enoch Zylowski, I live right next door. Okay. MR. KARPELES-Which side do you live on? MR. ZYLOWSKI-At Bellwood, on the north side. MR. GREEN-The big white place there? MR. ZYLOWSKI-Right, and I didn't understand as to how far the porch has, an extension for the deck. I don't know where t.hat's at. I really have no idea what's going on. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Have you seen these plans? MR. ZYLOWSKI-No, I haven't. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Why don't you come up here and we can show them to you. Okay. As we understand the project, there is, okay, here's the front. There's the lake. All right. There is an existing deck here. That will be removed. All right. However, wherever you see these X'ed in areas, apparently this deck does go around the house, and this will be squared off. So this would be new decking here, and then there will be an extension going up approximately nine to ten feet over the existing house. MR. ZYLOWSKI-See, originally, this was just a porch. MR. CARVIN-Okay. MR. ZYLOWSKI-And then when Eckardt bought it, he closed the porch in and put bay windows out in t.here. That's what this area' IS. Originally that was an open porch, when the Whittmers lived there. So he closed that in, then he added all the decks here. MS. CIPPERLY-But this deck is coming off completely. MR. ZYLOWSKI-Okay. That is coming off. MR. CARVIN-This is coming off, as we understand it. MS. CIPPERLY-He's filling in this corner. MR. FORD-Angling across. MRS. ZYLOWSKI MRS. ZYLOWSKI-Why we're checking took our view of the upper part we just want to question that he here. is when this was enclosed, it of the lake from our house, and isn't coming out further into MS. CIPPERLY-The first floor of the house is not moving out. - 4 - -- (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 10/25/95) MR. FORD-But that deck might get in your view. MR. ZYLOWSKI-The deck that's enclosed now, or the porch that's enclosed now is going to remain. MR. FORD-But that decking that extends out from that will be removed. MR. ZYLOWSKI-How much of an overhang? MR. CARVIN-I don't know. Sir? MR. JOHNSON-No more than 12 inches. MR. CARVIN-Okay. This is the proposed extension. MRS. ZYLOWSKI-It's just we don't want more of our view cut off. We want to make sure that they weren't going to come out into here, but as long as they don't. MR. CARVIN-Yes. I don't believe that is the case, from the plans that we're looking at. It would appear that this actually will be centered more in the center of the house. I just want to make sure that I understand this also. You're going up in the center of the house, right, so that you're going to have a slant? This would be a slanting roof here? MR. JOHNSON-Correct MR. CARVIN-Okay. t.hen. So that it's not coming out to the front here MR. JOHNSON-Correct. This was sort of a generic representation, because at this point, when this was done, there wasn't anything hard and fast designed. At this point, the second floor does extend to this edge of the building. MR. CARVIN-Okay, but what I'm saying is that you're not coming out to the front here? MR. JOHNSON-With a new roof we are. We're going to take this flattened roof off and make it. MRS. ZYLOWSKI-And you're going to bring that roof all the way down over where the deck area is now? MR. JOHNSON-No. See, this section right here is the old porch, and we're going to put a new roof on it and just align is with the new section. What's going to happen is we've taken this space and included it into the second floor. So this wall has no depth to the edge. MRS. ZYLOWSKI-We just, originally, before Mr. Benjamin, but Eckardt, he enclosed that outer deck, and he cut off our view. We just wanted to make sure that you weren't going to come out further yet. MR. ZYLOWSKI-That, originally, was one Bellwood. The original driveway went in into Bellwood, and that's the way Frohman It was a hotel at that t.ime. of the cottages of through their gateway had it in the 1890's. MR. FORD-Can you see over that, what used to be the porch area, that roof now? MRS. ZYLOWSKI-No. See, we used to look out, from our back room in this house, from here, we could see right up the lake and then up the road and everything, and then whenever he did it. He - 5 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 10/25/95) closed this all in, what was originally just an open porch. He closed it in and put like a kitchen or whatever's there. So he blocked it. Then he added this other deck here. So no~ we just want to make sure that it wasn't coming out. further into this area, that it was going to block more than what it already blocked. Thank you. MR. CARVIN-Anyone else wishing to be heard in opposition? Any correspondence? MR. THOMAS-No correspondence. MR. CARVIN-Any public comment at all? Seeing none, hearing none, I'll close the public hearing. PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED MR. CARVIN-Okay. Bob, any thoughts? MR. KARPELE5-No. My only thoughts are, I couldn't see it, so I'm going to abstain. If I can't see the place, I can't make an opinion. MR. GREEN-No. I don't seem to have any problem with it at all, as long as you stay under the 50 percent and are not coming out any farther. My only concern is I didn't want it going over that closed in porch, because I didn't think it would hold it, and in order to do it, you'd have to do a lot of renovations underneath it, but if you're not putting any additional weight over that, what we now call the closed in porch, I don't have a real concern. MR. FORD-I have concerns about expansion on and around the lake, but this seems like a pretty practical solut.ion. They're not. coming any closer to the lake. In fact, they're reducing the deck. 50 I don't have a real problem with it. MR. THOMAS-I agree with Bill and Tom, that I don't see a problem with this. It would enhance the building, and I like the idea of getting rid of part of that deck that extends toward the lake, also the idea of saving the trees out front. I think will enhance the neighborhood, and I also believe it'll make the applicant's very happy. MR. CARVIN-Nobody has a problem with the height expansion? MR. HH)MA5-No. MR. CARVIN-Your height would be about 30 feet? MR. JOHNSON-Approximately 30 feet, yes, MS. CIPPERLY-This application will also have to go to site plan review for the Planning Board, where some of these issues will be addresseð again. MR. THOMAS-It would have to go up to APA, just to look at it. Right? MR. FORD-Just one general concern, and that is that I would like to see plans be firmer, when presented, than these are. These are, they started out pretty generic, and then they got more specific, but they still are not very specific when we talk about how high the current building is and how high we're going to go. I understand we're going to stay within Code, but generally I like to have greater specificity. MR. CARVIN-How far back from the lake is this going to be? Is it - 6 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 10/25/95) 11 feet plus or minus? MR. JOHNSON-Yes. That was what the existing survey had. MS. CIPPERLY-The house is at 11. MR. CARVIN-Sue, why do we need 179-16C? Are we considering this a front yard, or are we looking for relief from the 20? MS. CIPPERLY-Yes, but the 75 really, that is considered a front yard. This is kind of an interesting parcel. This is the front. yard because that's the architectural front of the house. MR. CARVIN-I want to get the relief, if we're going to grant it here. MS. CIPPERLY-It would be from the 75 foot. MR. CARVIN-Okay, but that's the 179-60, right, the 75 feet, but 179-16C has to do with the side yard setbacks. MS. CIPPERLY-Well, when I originally did this, I was thinking this was a side yard, but there's no relief needed there anyway, and I guess this could also need relief from the 30 foot. That. is the front yard. MR. CARVIN-Yes, shoreline. but on the other hand, we're looking at MS. CIPPERLY-So he needs relief from the shoreline the front yard setbacks. That's 11 right there. setback and MR. CARVIN-All right. Well, that's what I wanted to that this is 11 feet. All right. So he needs 30. 19 feet of relief, front yard. make sure, So he needs MS. CIPPERLY-Yes. MR. CARVIN-How wide is the deck? MR. JOHNSON-The deck is approximately five feet, the portion that we're building. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Well, I'm going to limit the height on this to 30 feet., because I think that this is actually a two story already, with the downstairs. I think we've addressed these types of issues in the past and got burned very badly. There's going to be absolutely no changing with the windows or entrances or anything on that basement level? MR. JOHNSON-No. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Is everybody comfortable with this? All right. MOTION TO APPROVE AREA VARIANCE NO. 78-1995 RONALD BENJAMIN, Introduced by Fred Carvin who moved for its adoption, seconded by Thomas Ford: The applicant is proposing to construct a 580 square foot second floor addition to an existing single story structure. In order for the applicant to accomplish this, he needs relief from Section 179-60, and Section 179-16C. 179-60 deals with the 75 foot shore setback. I would grant 64 feet of relief from that Section. Sect.ion 179-16C deals with the front yard setbacks, a minimum of 30 feet. I would grant 19 feet relief from that Section. The overall structure will remain no higher t.han 30 feet from ground level. By granting of this relief, and limiting t.he height t.o 30 feet, and because the applicant is removing an - 7 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 10/25/95) existing five foot deck, they are in essence actually moving back furt.her from the lake, which will benefit the applicant, and not be a detriment to the health, safety and welfare of the community. Again, by limiting the height to 30 feet, and limiting the expansion to 580 feet, we will not be creating an undesirable change in the neighborhood, or a detriment to any nearby properties. This appears to be the minimum relief necessary to achieve t.he applicant's desire to increase their living space. There does not appear to be any other feasible methods to accomplish this. This relief may appear to be substantial, percentage wise, but here again, we are dealing with an existing structure, and the applicant is reducing the setback from the lake by the removal of the deck. As I indicated, this would be the minimum relief necessary and adequate to protect the character of the neighborhood and the health, safety and welfare of the community. Duly adopted this 25th day of October, 1995, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Green, Mr. Ford, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Carvin NOES: NONE ABSTAINED: Mr. Karpeles ABSENT: Mr. Menter USE VARIANCE NO. 79-1995 TYPE: UNLISTED RR-5A CEA WILLIAM BUNTING OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE LOCKHART MT. ROAD, BEHIND GILLIS FARM APPLICANT PROPOSES TO CONSTRUCT A 17 FT. BY 30 FT. ADDITION TO THE NORTH SIDE OF AN EXISTING BOAT TRAILER MANUFACTURING BUILDING, ALLOWED BY USE VARIANCE NO. 82-1990. SECTION 179-79 STATES THAT ANY NONCONFORMING USE MAY BE INCREASED ONLY BY VARIANCE GRANTED BY THE ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) 10/11/95 TAX MAP NO. 23-1-29.1 LOT SIZE: 6.164 ACRES SECTION 179-79 WILLIAM BUNTING, PRESENT MR. THOMAS-"At a meeting of the Warren County Planning Board, held on the 11th day of October, 1995, the above application for a Use Variance to construct a 20' x 17' addition to existing building. was reviewed, and the following action was taken. Recommendation to: Return Comments: Removed from Agenda by Town on October 10, 1995." Signed by C. Powel South, Chairperson. MR. CARVIN-Why was it removed, Sue, from the Warren County? MS. CIPPERLY-Because it wasn't a Warren County, by accident this month the secretary sent all the applications up to Warren County, and there were two of them in there, we had one last week that was removed, also. There were two of them that didn't need to be sent. So we withdrew them. Lockhart Mountain Road isn't County, and this property isn't within 500 feet of the lake or Route 9L. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Is there to add to your application? applicant is requesting? anything significant that you'd care Does the Board understand what the MR. GREEN-I've just got one question on the' application, at least on the Short Form. It says 20 by 14. On our notes here it says 30 by 17. MR. BUNTING-Yes. We decided, I think after the that 20 feet wasn't even really worth putting up, original thing, so 30 would be - 8 - - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 10/25/95) more feasible to us. MR. CARVIN-What did we advertise? MR. THOMAS-The advertisement went out at 17 by 30. MR. GREEN-I think it was just on the Short. Form that it was 20. MS. CIPPERLY-That does need to be reviewed, because this is an Unlisted Action. MR. CARVIN-What Section are we seeking relief of, Sue, do you know right off hand? MR. THOMAS-179-79. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Thank you. Okay. Any questions of the applicant? Sue, do we have a copy of the original use variance? Is there any stipulations that you know of, in that use variance? MS. CIPPERLY-No. I did review it. It. was just for that original building there. This is just an addition to that. The reason it needs a Use Variance is because it's an expansion of a nonconforming use for that zone, which is Rural Residential Five Acre. In my review of it, in going out to the site, the addition's going to be on the north side. It didn't seem like it would be visible from the road. We haven't had any comment from neighbors. MR. CARVIN-Okay. It looked like there was two buildings out there, about similar struçture? MR. BUNTING-The one next door, yes. originally four stories high. They had floors qf that building. That belongs to That one was, that was to remove the top three Mr. Gillis. MS. CIPPERLY-That was a chicken farm that used to be a four story chicken coop. MR. BUNTING-When he sold the upper 10 acre lots, it was in the contract when he sold it. to the guy that. the top three floors of that building would be taken off, because it was quite large. MR. CARVIN-Okay. What specifically is the new addit.ion going to be used for? MR. BUNTING-Basically storage. The building was (lost words) when we purchased the spray booth. What we figured out, in putting this spraybooth inside the building, it was going to take up so much space inside that we would need some place to store our tires and wheels and our inventory. MR. CARVIN-Do you have a spraybooth currently? MR. BUNTING-Yes, but it's not assembled. It's in a pile. I wasn't going to put. it up until, I'm not using a spraybooth at the time, but I paint every night, eight, nine, ten o'clock at night, getting home. Just can't paint during the day when guys are working. MR. CARVIN-This is not a new occupation, or a new facet of your business? MR. BUNTING-Seven years I believe I've been in this, going on seven years, doing the same thing I've been doing. MR. CARVIN-Okay. So you currently do have a spray area? - 9 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 10/25/95) MR. BUNTING-Area, five inch sheet rock area, fire code sheet )" oc k . MR. CARVIN-All right. Any questions, gentlemen? open up the public hearing. Okay. I'll PUBLIC HEARING OPENED NOELLE GRANGER MRS. GRANGER-I have a question. I'm not opposed to the application. My name is Noelle Granger, and we live on the property adjacent to Mr. Bunting, and certainly the request is a relatively small one. I guess our concern is that the upper barn, which is the former poultry farm, which was, the three upper floors were demolished, seems to be going to be used for boat storage or something to do with the boat business as well. It seem to be, anyway, and I guess with addition to it, we're just wondering how large the business is going to become. I didn't know if Mr. Bunting could offer any information about that. . MR. hold BUNTING-The building that we have is just a size that would about the production that we have now, and my future plans if the business grows in the next five like it has in the five, I'd like to like move into an industrial park area and the business off the mountain, but for right now, I'm just a kid trying to do it. So, I'd like t.o build a house there day and just live up there actually. are, past move poor som e MR. CARVIN-Okay. Are both those structures? MR. BUNTING-The second poultry barn, the second building is not on my property. I have nothing to do with that anymore, and the boat business in there, that's Ray Gillis' son working up there. MR. CARVIN-Okay. So we have two separate and distinct businesses up there? MR. BUNT ING-Ye~3 . MR. CARVIN-Okay. Because I saw the two buildings there and I wasn't sure if they were the same. MR. BUNTING-Right. over there. I have nothing to do with what's going on MR, CARVIN-Okay. MRS. GRANGER-As a matter of fact, we were confused, too. So that answers that question. MS. CIPPERLY-When that was a poultry barn, was that used for boat storage? MR. BUNTING-The building that I'm in? The other one? Yes. There's always been boats in there, and Eddy Gillis, he buys boats cheap that have been damaged or whatever and he fixes them up on his own and sells them. Basically it's like a hobby business. It's not really a full blown, hanging a nail up and a sign. MR. CARVIN-Okay. business? I guess you're more of a manufacturing MR. BUNTING-Yes. MR. CARVIN-Okay, and the other building is quite literally - 10 - -- (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 10/25/95) storage? MR. BUNTING-It's a hobby, like on the side. It's not his full time business. MR. CARVIN-Okay. MRS. GRANGER-That was my question. Thanks. Thank you. MR. CARVIN-Sure. Any public comment at all? Any correspondence, Chr is? MR. THOMAS-No correspondence. MR. CARVIN-Okay. No public comment? All right. hearing none, I'll close the public hearing. Seeing none, PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED MR. CARVIN-Okay. Gentlemen, your thoughts? MR. THOMAS-I'm still trying to figure out if the addition is going to be higher than the existing building or not. MR. BUNTING-No. It's going to follow the roof line. I put a 16 foot door in the center of the building, as you can see there. That roof line will follow, the ridge will go right across the back of the building. It will be the same height at that, and no higher. So it would be like a "T" on the back of the building. MR. THOMAS-That's the only thing ~ had. MR. CARVIN-Any problems with it, Chris? MR. THOMAS-No, none whatsoever. MR. FORD-Can you tell us about. because you obviously are storing st.oring in this new enclosed area. the painting operat.ion now, whatever you're going to be MR. BUNTING-My paints are stored in a paint storage cabinet. MR. FORD-Right, but you're going to use this expansion for storage purposes, right? MR. BUNTING-Yes. MR. FORD-So that you can construct a special painting area? MR. BUNTING-Yes. MR. FORD-But you already have a special painting area. MR. BUNTING-Yes, but I purchased the spray booth, a legitimate factory store bought spray booth. MR. CARVIN-And how is that going to be vented? MR. BUNTING-It'll be vented through the fan that comes with it and the duct work and the filters. This is a legitimate painting facility. It's an OSHA approved spray booth. MS. CIPPERLY-Yes. That'll all have to be inspected by the Fire Marshal and the Building Inspectors also. MR. FORD-Now are you going to simply remove your current spraying area? - 11 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 10/25/95) MR. BUNTING-No. My current spraying area will become what we would call a rigging area where the boat trailer gets the wheels put on, the lights put on, the winch, the jack. There'd be a finish area. What we'd like to do now is bring the steel on the road end of the building, where we're storing all our wheels and tires and stuff, and bring the steel in t.hat. end, and the finished trailer would go out the other end. Right now we waste so much time moving stuff back and forth and trying to work around in there. MR. KARPELES-I don't have any he's got a lot of land, and bother anybody. It's a long like a pretty quiet. business. problem with this. It looks like I don't see where it's going to way away from anybody, and it looks I have no trouble with it. MR. GREEN-My only original thought was I thought the upper barn was part of your property also, but since it's not, I don't have any concern at all. My original thought was, gee, you've got all this space, you know, what do you need another little space down here, but if that's not available to you, then I don't have any problem at all. That was my only original thought. I don't have any problem with the structure itself. MR. CARVIN-Okay. will this have any impact on your business at all, as far as monetary, if you didn't get this? MR. BUNTING-Instead of working 15 hour days, I'd be working 8 or 9 hour days. It would make things run a lot smoother. It'll be an asset to us. MR. CARVIN-Okay. MR. KARPELES-I just have a question about this paint spraying. You say that tHe, you can't spray during the day now because the fumes bother the people that work there. MR. BUNTING-The room that we spray in, it was at the end where the office is at, plus the doors opening and closing during the day, with the fan on, okay. You couldn't get a good product out.. You'd have so much dirt in the fenders. These are upper end trailers. They've got custom made. They've got. to look nice. So when everything's still at night, I paint at night. MR. KARPELES-So you'll be able to paint in the day time when you get this, with a legitimate spray booth, as you call it. MR. BUNTING-Yes. I can go home early. We don't paint every day, either, but it will still be much better. In the business time of the year, in the spring, we've got to paint every day. MR. FORD-While, I was looking at the site and the expansion, I couldn't help but see your product, and it is, it's good quality. MR. CARVIN-Okay. I covered everybody. with it. I don't have a problem MOTION TO APPROVE USE VARIANCE NO. 79-1995 WILLIAM BUNTING, Introduced by Fred Carvin who moved for its adoption, seconded by Chris Thomas: The applicant proposes to construct a 17 by 30 addition to an existing building whose height will not exceed the current. roof line of the existing building, and in order for the applicant to proceed with this project, he needs relief from Section 179-79, which indicates that nonconforming uses can only be increased by variance. This use, the original use of this property was granted by Use Variance No. 82-1990, allowing the applicant to manufacture boat t.railers. I believe the applicant has - 12 - - -' (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 10/25/95 ) demonstrated that a reasonable return cannot be achieved due to the current set up of his spray booth operation, which limits his hours of doing business, and does have an impact on the quality control and number of units that he can manufacture. By allowing this addition, it would allow him to construct a higher quality spraybooth, conforming with all the environmental concerns that might be associated with a spraybooth. It would allow him to operate a smoother operation. This situation is unique because this use is allowed by variance. By the granting of this relief, we will not be altering the essential character of the neighborhood, and again, this hardship has been self-created, but again mit.igated by the fact. that the use has been granted by variance, and certainly this would be the minimum variance necessary and adequate to address the unnecessary hardship proven by the applicant, and at the same time preserve and protect the character of the neighborhood and the health, safety and welfare of the community. A review of the Short Environmental Assessment Form indicates a negative declarat.ion. Duly adopted this 25th day of October, 1995, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Ford, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Green, Mr. Carvin NOES: NONE ABSENT: Mr. Menter USE VARIANCE NO. 80-1995 TYPE: UNLISTED LI-1A GLENS FALLS KENNEL CLUB OWNER: PAUL AND SALLY BRANDT CORINTH ROAD, 2 MILES EAST FROM EXIT 18 APPLICANT PROPOSES TO LEASE A BUILDING IN A LIGHT INDUSTRIAL ZONE FOR USE AS A KENNEL CLUB TRAINING AND EDUCATIONAL CENTER. SECTION 179-26 DOES NOT ALLOW THIS USE, SO A USE VARIANCE IS REQUIRED. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) 10/11/95 TAX MAP NO. 126-1-60, 61, 62 LOT SIZE: 2.04, 6.83, 1.97 ACRES SECTION 179-26 MARK LEVACK, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT MR. THOMAS-"At a meet.ing of the Warren County Planning Board, held on the 11th day of October 1995, the above application for: a Use Variance to operate a kennel club with educational and training courses. was reviewed and the following action was taken. Recommendation to: Return Comment.s: No action could be taken since a majority vote could not be achieved." Signed by C. Powel South, Chairperson. MR. CARVIN-Do you want to read this letter in, To Whom It May Concern, or will we read t.hat later? MR. THOMAS-Which letter is that? MR. CARVIN-That's from Cathy Cloutier. I've got it dated September 27th. It's part of the application. MR. THOMAS-There it is. A letter dated September 27, 1995, "To Whom It May Concern: We are the Glens Falls Kennel Club, and we have been in existence for 25 years as a not for profit organization. We are currently attempting to become a Tax Exempt organizat.ion. We are currently located on Bluebird Road, a residential area in South Glens Falls, and have been there for four (4) years. Before that we were located at St. Joseph School in Fort Edward. We are trying to find a permanent home as our present location is too small and the demand for our service has outgrown our current space. Below you will find a list of what our organizat.ion does and what our goals are. 1) We train and educate both the public and their dogs through low cost training classes discounted for Senior Citizens and for those who really - 13 - (Oueensbury ZBA Meeting 10/25/95) cannot afford our service, we will donate our services. 2) We promote training of therapy dogs for hospital and nursing homes. 3) We put on an information day at the mall each year. 4) We teach people how to find the right dog for their lifestyle through our Breeder Referral Program of Responsible Breeders and st.ress the importance of making sure people understand the responsibility of owning a dog in an effort to cut down the number of dogs that end up abandoned or in shelters. 5) We support the work of no kill shelters. 6) We promote responsible ownership of dogs so people will take responsibilit.y for their dogs seriously so they do not run free. 7) We give scholarship money to Cornell for veterinary scholarship students who will come back to our area to practice. 8) We support spay and neuter programs as well as licensing and vaccination programs. 9) We want to set up a rabies and tattoo clinic for local citizens. 10) We sponsor the Canine Good Citizen Test. In closing, it is the objective of this club to promote all aspects of living with dogs and having dogs able to live with the public in a harmonious environment. Very truly yours, Cathy Cloutier Training Director" MR. CARVIN-Okay. Is there anything significant that you'd care to add to your application? MR. LEVACK-My name is Mark Levack. I'm the listing agent on the property for Sally and Paul Brandt, and Colleen came to me some time ago looking for some space to house the Kennel Club. We're here to speak to any issues that you may have regarding the application and answer any questions that you may have. I have a couple of points that I'd like to throw out up front, and you can take them in whatever order or priority you wish. I think that this use is a good transition use because the adjoining property is SR-IA, and I just think that it's a compatible use with the neighborhood, as opposed to possibly some light industrial uses that might be a little more intrusive to the neighbors and to the residential zoning. I'd like to point out that this is not a kennel club. There will be no dogs housed at this complex. This is simply a class and meet.ing facility. Ninety-five percent of the business that's going to be conducted there will be held indoors, and I think the hardship here that we're up against, that the Brandts' are up against, is just the general economy, and trying to find manufacturing or light industrial tenant, it just seems that the tenant that's most likely to occupy this space under the zoning is least likely to be found out there today. There's an economic hardship. It's important to have this tenant in this deal at this time, so that Paul can continue to upgrade the facility, and that he plans on staining the property in t.he spring, and dressing up the exterior. I brought some pictures here this evening to show you that the interior is in really good shape, recently painted it for the Kennel Club so they could have a clean environment in which to work. Basically, they're a not for profit group. I'd like to point out that the reason I'm sitting here, again, in this situation and having to have a unanimous Board, due to the super majority necessitated by a denial at the County level. The main reason why they seemed to turn us down was that they wanted to prot.ect the integrity of light industrial zoning out there, and, you know, we have more light industrial prop~rty listed in this Town t.han anyone. I can tell you that without a doubt there is really an abundance of light industrial, LI-1A zoning. So I really don't see that this, we're not asking for a zone change on the property. We just simply asking for a Use Variance. So, Cathy's here to answer any questions, and Paul and Sally Brandt are here to answer any questions you may have. MR. CARVIN-Any questions, gentlemen? MR. KARPELES-Yes. Is that building on two different lots? It - 14 - -' (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 10/25/95) looks like it is here. MR. LEVACK-Because the building is a split building? MR. KARPELES-No. Well, it looks like a lot line goes down through the middle of the building. MS. CIPPERLY-Yes, this lot line, but they're both owned by one owner. MR. LEVACK-Right. Are you referring to this lot line here? MR. KARPELES-Yes, right. See, that's more distinct on this, but I guess my question is, they own both lots? MR. LEVACK-Correct. MR. KARPELES-Are they going to use the entire building? MR. LEVACK-No, just this portion of the building right. here, the back shop area, and we have a picture of that right there. The front is an office, a one story office. The back is a little high bay area. This 2,750 square feet, and this is about 4,000 square feet, and t.hen this is 3,750 square feet right here, and they're just looking to occupy the back. I brought some photographs for you. MR. KARPELES-And this one is still empty? MR. LEVACK-No. That one is being occupied~ right now, by a Hal Raven, Raven Industries. He's just simply using it as a material storage shed, and a shop. MR. FORD-And the front office space? MR. LEVACK-Vacant. MS. CIPPERLY-Mark, could you address the length of the lease? This is not going to be purchased in the existing situation. MR. LEVACK-Sure. The lease, I have a copy of it right here. It's basically a one year lease with a one year option, for just the 4,000 square foot back shop area, and associated parking. MR. FORD-What would be the hours of operation? CATHY CLOUTIER MRS. CLOUTIER-Well, presently we hold classes starting usually at six o'clock at night. Our latest class is usually out at nine. We do have a morning class. We would not be using the building most likely on Sunday. MR. FORD-How early in the morning do you start? MRS. CLOUTIER-We have one ten o'clock class on a Tuesday morning, and we do hope to use it as an education center for the public, now that we would have the capability of having space that we had not had to start re-educating the ones that we haven't. MR. FORD-So right now you have one morning class, and how many evening classes? MRS. CLOUTIER-Right now we have two on Mondays. The last class is about 8:15, presently, on Monday. We have two on Tuesday, last class getting out at eight o'clock. We have two on Wednesday, last class getting out at eight o'clock, one on Thursday, last class getting out at seven o'clock, but we do have - 15 - (Queensbury Z8A Meeting 10/25/95) a need, and we've had to all of our time, if I can paid for what we do. turn people away because of that, and say, is all donated. None of us get MR. KARPELES-So this will be almost exclusively dog obedience classes? MRS. CLOUTIER-It is dog obedience with education. We do encourage the canine good citizen, which is spay, neuter and license your dog. I don't know if you have a letter in your packet from Colleen Kimble, your Animal Control Officer. We've been in contact with her, and she knows what we do, the Washington County SPCA, also. There's a lot happening out there that the public is totally unaware of, and we try and do it in a different way. There's a very minimum charge for classes, usually just to cover our rent, and that's about all it does, because we want. to get as many people as we can. If it's a hardship, we do it for nothing. I don't know if I answered your question. MR. KARPELES-Well, it's dog obedience classes, is why you need this a~-ea? MRS. CLOUTIER-Dog obedience and education, exactly. MR. FORD-Where would the dogs be walked? MRS. CLOUTIER-Out behind the property. MS. CIPPERLY-Behind the building. MRS. CLOUTIER-Right. MR. FORD-On the property? MRS. CLOUTIER-On the property behind the building, right, and that's another thing. In educating dog ownership is the plastic bag and the pooper scooper, and you take it home with you, and there is also a petition, and I hope you have that in your file, signed by where we had been for the last four years, including people living right over the training center, because there's apartments over the top of the training center, and nobody's ever had a problem wit.h this, because we do enforce it. MR. FORD-Would you address Item Nine, setting up rabies and tattoo clinics for local cit.izens? MRS. CLOUTIER-Right. This is something that has been done a lot in Albany area, sometimes in Saratoga. Glens Falls has never really done it in a full force, where we get a local veterinarian to come in and just about donate their time, and the person, there's a lot of people, I mean, a rabies vaccination can go anywhere from $15, if there's not an office visit, up to $35 or more, depending on your veterinarians. So what we want to do is have low cost rabies clinics. There's too many dogs out there that do not have their shots because people can't afford it. It's usually like a $5 cost for basically the serum, and if we advertise that with the help through the SPCA, and we pick and Saturday and say this is the day, and these are the hours we're going to do it, and like I say, try and get as many people in the area as we can to get the rabies vaccination, especially with the outbreaks we see now of people dying because they were bit by dogs that were never, or cats or bats or whatever. MR. FORD-And the second portion of that, the tattoo? MRS. CLOUTIER-The tattoo clinic, what, basically, it's a national registry where if you get your dogs tattooed, which is usually - 16 - - (Queensbury Z8A Meeting 10/25/95) on, there's been a lot of dognapping. There was some in Queensbury not to long ago, where labs, they snag the dog. They take it. They sell the dog to a lab. If the dog is tattooed, protecting your pet is another step, and t.hen taking that dog and cutting its ear off because the tattoo's gone, and selling it to a lab. We had the dogs tat.tooed on the inner thigh. It goes all the way up to their stomach. It's also something that will appear on the dog licenses, in the Town of Queensbury, wherever, as other identification remarks, identifying marks, and then again the national dog registry. You can register your tattoo there in case your dog does get lost. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Will this be done on premises? MRS. CLOUTIER-The tattooing? MR. CARVIN~-Yes. MRS. CLOUTIER-Yes. It would be. MR. CARVIN-What other medical or health related services might )lOU provide? MRS. CLOUTIER-Well, we'd like to teach them, we have an education, I don't know if you'd call it. medical or health, but it has to do with flea control. It has to do with allergies, nutrition, and we have speakers who come in, and we also have the first aid, and we have registered people in the Kennel Club who have first aid certification to teach people if their dogs ever this or that, and how to protect it, and maybe possibly save it in precious moments that yoU don't usually have. So we do educate our classes on that along with nutrition and flea control. MR. CARVIN-Okay, but no dogs will be, if I can use the term, kenneled? MRS. CLOUTIER-No. MR. CARVIN-So they're all transitory? MRS. CLOUTIER-They come in to the class. They leave after the hour and go home and practice and come back next week. MR. CARVIN-Okay. What about a noise level? anxious? Do they do a lot of barking? Are these dogs MRS. CLOUTIER-Well, the last place, well, where we are presently, it's been four years, and the neighbors up above have never had a problem with us. Sometimes, and I won't say it never happens, but sometimes when a dog first comes in a class and sees all these other dogs there, it's like, whoa, they'll give a little, hello, but that's why the instructors are there, and we teach them that barking is no problem. MS. CIPPERLY-Are most of your classes going to be inside, or is that only during the inclement? MRS. CLOUTIER-Yes, 95 percent of our classes will be inside. MS. CIPPERLY-Year round? MRS. CLOUTIER-Year round. MR. KARPELES-You confuse me. You said in back of the building. I assumed they would be inside, but then you said you would be in the ba,ck of the building. What's in the back of the building? - 17 - (Queensbury Z8A Meeting 10/25/95) MRS. CLOUTIER-Just the property when the dogs have to relieve themselves. That's all, the bathroom. MR. KARPELES-But the classes are inside? MRS. CLOUTIER-The classes are inside, yes. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Any other questions, gentlemen? MR. THOMAS-I've got one or two. If you were to move into this facility, would you increase the number of classes you hold? MRS. CLOUTIER-We have had them, even in the other building we were in, based on the need. We might have three classes on a Monday night, instead of two. We might. That's why I stated that nine o'clock would be the latest time, because that would give us the opt.ion to have a six, seven and eight o'clock class. MR. THOMAS-Could you see this running into a ten in the morning to eight at night operation? MRS. CLOUTIER-We all donate our time and have day jobs, no. It has not in t.he last four years we were at St. Joseph, also. There has never been more than two Tuesday morning classes. MR. THOMAS-On the average, how many dogs do you have t.here, per class? MRS. CLOUTIER-Fourteen. MR. THOMAS-So that's fourteen cars coming in and out? MRS. CLOUTIER-Yes. MR. THOMAS-Okay. MR. CARVIN-I guess, I'm counting, there's, what, five structures on this property? MR. LEVACK-Five, that's correct, yes. MR. CARVIN-And they're looking at this specific? Okay. How many other businesses are on this property? MR. LEVACK-This is the front of the property. This is the rear of the property. This building to the right is this building right here. That's occupied as a storage shop and a carpenter shop for Raven Industries. The front building has an office in the front. It used to be West Mountain Tractor Sales, and then the back shop area, which is everything that you see right here, and that's the only portion that. they're going to be occupying. The front portion of the building is an office that has no tenant. MR. CARVIN-Okay. So it's currently unoccupied, then. MR. LEVACK-Correct. MR. CARVIN-How about, like this frame building here, or this one here? MR. LEVACK-That is a cold storage building, and this is a cold storage building. This building doesn't even have power, nor does this one, I believe. Actually, this does lights in it. This one does not. They're just part storage. West Mountain is storing some parts to the ski lifts in this, and this is vacant. That building is in not the greatest shape. This is a nice pole barn building, and that home is being rented, occupied. - 18 - (Queensbury Z8A Meeting 10/25/95) MR. CARVIN-So this one's occupied? MR. LEVACK--Yes. MR. CARVIN-How big of a lot do we have here? MR. LEVACK-Eight acres, total, plus this site, which was annexed to the property. It's wooded. It's all trees in there. MR. CARVIN-Okay. There's no house on that corner then? MR. LEVACK-No. It's Just a, it's nicely wooded. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Would you anticipate these others being occupied by businesses at some point? MR. LEVACK-I would say no. I would say that hopefully we might be able to get an office tenant in here. It hasn't really proven itself to be a highly desirable office location. We're hopeful that we could get a tenant that would occupy it as an office and a shop, but haven't been able to do that, and I don't see those two back buildings being anything more than cold storage. MR. CARVIN-I'm not quite businesses or occupations sure, I mean, I don't know how many or uses we could put on a single lot. MR. LEVACK-Currently there are two, if you count this and Hal Raven. MR. KARPELES-Yes, but that's two lots, right? MR. CARVIN-It's one lot. MR. KARPELES-Is it one lot or two there? MR. LEVACK-Actually, I think there's two deeded, I think there's two different tax map parcels there. MR. KARPELES-It sure looks like two. MR. GREEN-So this one is a totally separate lot? MR. LEVACK-It does encroach a little bit, but yes. I think if we look at a tax map, we'll see a different parcel there. MS. CIPPERLY-I think this shows two. MR. LEVACK-If you felt that a boundary lot line adjustment was in order, I could talk to Paul and see whether or not t.hat might satisfy any concerns you might have. MR. CARVIN-Well, I'm just wondering, we've got five buildings, how many businesses we actually could have there. MS. CIPPERLY-They're all light industrial uses, except for this one. MR. CARVIN-I think there's a number of gross square feet. "Maximum density. One (1) principal building of up to twelve thousand (12,000) square feet of gross floor areas for single- story buildings and fifteen thousand (15,000) square feet. of gross floor area for multiple-story buildings will be allowed for everyone (1) acre." "For each additional one hundred fifty (150) square feet for single-story and two hundred (200) square feet of gross floor area for multiple-story buildings, five hundred (500) square feet of land area will be required." So I guess they could build it out quite a bit. It doesn't really say how many different. - 19 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 10/25/95) MR. THOMAS-No. feet peì" acr e . It doesn't say. It just says number of square MR. CARVIN-I think you had a good question there, as far as the traffic. I mean, I don't know what else goes in there. MR. THOMAS-I think this has to go before the Planning Board anyway, for a site plan. MS. CIPPERLY-Yes. Any new, in a light industrial has to get site plan review. MR. THOMAS-So I imagine they'll nail it there, but just to give us an idea of what's going on. MS. CIPPERLY-The other thing I was going to mention is that this particular use isn't listed in any zone in the Town. So no matter where it wanted to go, it would need a Use Variance. Kennels are listed, but. those are boarding facilities. There's veterinary, and they're just not really a kennel club designation. MR. THOMAS-I have just one more question. Do you plan on putting up any kind of fences? Have you ever had any problems with the dogs running away from the owners and, like into roads? MRS. CLOUTIER-We don't let You're dog is supposed to be where we are now, we have no L>Je can use. them out unless they're leashed. on a leash to protect your dog, and fence, we have an area out back t.hat MR. THOMAS-Okay. So there's no anticipation of any fence going up, MR. CARVIN-Any other questions, gentlemen? All right. I'll open up the public hearing. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED TIMOTHY BREWER MR. BREWER-Tim Brewer, Candleberry Drive. I would be in support of t.he application. In the past, I attended with this Kennel Club in Fort Edward, and found it to be a well organized organization, never had a problem when we went. We have two dogs. We took both of our dogs separate times. Well maintained. Like Cathy said, the dogs are on leashes. Naturally, there's going to be some barking. I don't see a problem with it. I think it.'ll be an asset to that building. It's been vacant for some time, and I think a business of this sort would be welcome in the neighborhood. Thank you. MR. CARVIN-I think we've got some correspondence. MR. THOMAS-Yes, we do. "TO: Queensbury Zoning Board of Appeals FROM: Colleen E. Kimble, Animal Control Officer SUBJ: Glens Falls Kennel Club DATE: October 10, 1995 It has come to my attention that the Glens Falls Kennel Club would like to have a training facility in Queensbury. I am writing t.o give my support to this idea. I feel the Kennel Club would benefit dog owners in the Town and surrounding communities. The Kennel Club holds classes in agility, dog obedience and canine good citizen behavior. The Club also promotes responsible pet ownership with support of spaying and neutering of animals and the licensing of dogs. Additionally, The Kennel Club suggest.s the adoption of animals from a local shelter, rather than purchasing an animal from a store. The Glens Falls Kennel Club can help teach residents to be better pet owners through education and - 20 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 10/25/95) responsibility. I believe they have a great deal to offer this community. Thank you for your time and consideration." A letter dated 10/25/95, addressed to the Town of Queensbury. It was faxed in, from Thomas H. Condon, 510 Corinth Road, Queensbury, NY, Subject scheduled Zoning Board meeting for 10/25/95 and the request of the Glens Falls Kennel club for zoning law change, "1 had planned to attend the above mentioned meeting to voice my concern and objection to the request before the Board of the 'Glens Falls Kennel Club' for a zoning change to allow them to locate a dog training facility in an area not zoned for such activity in the Town of Queensbury. Job requirements unexpectedly have prevented my attendance. My basic position is being an affected property owner that there should not be a further relaxing of zoning laws in the general area of Corinth, VanDusen and Pitcher Roads. Property owners including myself purchased property in Queensbury in good faith expecting existing zoning laws would be upheld. I would ask each of the Zoning Board members to consider whether or not they would be favorably disposed to such a development in their immediate residential area. Has the Board taken the time to survey and study the existing present site of the Glens Falls Kennel Club and det.ermined the impact of their operation on the immediate neighborhood? There is already a dog barking problem in this immediate area being considered by the Kennel Club as at least (3) parties have dogs they call pets but keep them tied up outside the majority of the time if not all the time which has negatively impacted the peace and quiet of the neighborhood. Past tenants of mine have complained. So that there is a real perceived problem to the Kennel Club's request before the Board. It appears that the Kennel Club is attempt.ing to address a need. Let them do so in a more appropriate land area and let it be one which does not negatively impact property values and the peace and quiet of affected residential areas. I respectfully request that the Board reject by voting against the Kennel Club's request for zoning change or variance. Thank you. Tom Condon" A fax transmittal from M. Mark Levack, subject, Glens Falls Kennel Club Additional Comments, "Please have this letter read into the minutes this evening. Thank you, Mark" A letter dated October 17, 1995 "The Washington County Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, Inc. is a private, non profit organization that provides shelter to stray and unwanted animals until new permanent homes can be found for them. All shelter animals 6- months of age and older are spayed or neutered to prevent unwanted litters. Adopted puppies and kittens have this surgery when they are 6-months old. In addition, the S.P.C.A. makes every effort to educate the public concerning responsible pet ownership and the need to spay/neuter pets. The Tri-County area cont.inues to face the growing overpopulation problem of unwanted animals, including litters of puppies and kittens. Since there aren't enough homes available for these animals, hundreds must by killed by euthanasia. Others will be abandoned in apartments and along the roadside, where they often face starvation and death. The Washington County S.P.C.A. wishes to acknowledge and support the Glens Falls Kennel Club in its efforts to educat.e the public on responsible pet ownership, including the need to spay or neuter pets. In addition, the Kennel Club offers various programs that help owners train and care for their animals. With such training, owners are more willing to keep their pets and work with them on possible problem behaviors, rather than give them away or abandon them. The Kennel Club also encourages the public to adopt their pets from area animal shelters. No only does this provide a home for shelter animals, but it provides space for others on the waiting list. Efforts such as these support the on-going activities of the S.P.C.A. and its shelter. The Board of Directors of the Washington County S.P.C.A. believes the Glens Falls Kennel Club will continue to benefit the community and the tri-county area. Board of Directors Washington County S.P.C.A." - 21 - (Cueensbury ZBA Meeting 10/25/95) MR. CARVIN-Ok~y. I think you said you had a petition? MS. CIPPERLY-Yes. t.his. I've got a copy. There are 33 signatures t.o MR. THOMAS-"G.F. Kennel Club We the undersigned acknowledge that we have had no problems with the Glens Falls Kennel Club in the four years that they have resided on Bluebird Road in the Town of South Glens Falls in the State of New York." And it's signed by 33 residents of Bluebird Road and Gansvoort Road. It should be stated that it's not the Town of South Glens Falls. It's the Town of Moreau. That does it. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Any public comment at all? Seeing no additional public comment, I'll close the public hearing. PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED MR. CARVIN-Okay. Gentlemen, any thoughts, comments? MR. KARPELES-I think this would be a good use for the land, to t.ell you the truth. I think a lot more objectionable businesses or uses than this could move in there, and I've been to dog obedience classes, never up here, but I think they serve a very worthwhile function, and I don't remember them being objectionable to the neighbors at all. So, I'm for it. MR. GREEN-My only init.ial concern was the noise and the traffic. I t~hink that's been addressed pretty well. Looking at some of the other uses that could go in this zone, freight terminal, extraction of sand, stone or gravel, truck repair, heavy machinery repair, I think a dog training facility is going to be a lot less of a both to anyone in the neighborhood than any of those that are allowed. So I don't have a real problem. MR. FORD-Can you tell me, on that petition, how close the closest person is who signed that? MRS. CLOUTIER-How close? There's two apartments right over the t.raining center, besides the neighbors in the rest of the street. MR. FORD-Does the Glens Falls Kennel Club ever initiate any outreach program to pet owner$ in the immediate neighborhood, addressing the gentleman's concern that the three that are chained outside or~hatever? ' MRS. CLOUTIER-I would love to fi~d out if that would be possible. Because I would like to talk to those people. The sad thing is when a person gets a dog to be a watch dog and not a pet, they tie it to a tree, and the dog stays there all day and barks. In fact, we would be glad, speaking as a training director, to offer those people a set of eight week sessions free of charge, t.o maybe educate them to help the neighborhood. MR. FORD-Thank you, and I too have been through the course and became well tT~ined. MR. THOMAS-I have no problem with this. I think it's a great idea. I think this area has been crying for something like this for a long time, and as far as Mr. Condon's remarks, if this had been a boarding kennel, I would take into account his comments, but since this is not a boarding kennel, and I think he misunderstood what. the use was going to be, that I don't think that this comments do apply to this, and like I said, I think it's a great idea. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Then I would ask for a motion. - 22 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 10/25/95) MOTION TO APPROVE USE VARIANCE NO. 80-1995 CLUB, Int,-oduced by F,-ed Carv'in who moved seconded by Robert Karpeles: GLENS FALLS KENNEL for its adoption, The applicant proposes to use the property as a Kennel Club training and educational center. In order for the applicant t.o accomplish this end, they would need relief from Section 179-26, which deals wit.h the Light Industrial zones for which a kennel club, educational facility, training center is not an approved use. I would grant relief from this section allowing the applicant to establish the Glens Falls Kennel Club because the applicant has demonstrated that the property as currently zoned, they have not been able to rent or lease the facility for any Light Industrial use. I don't believe that the Kennel Club is a unique situation. I strongly believe that it will not alter the essential character of the neighborhood. If anything, it probably will enhance a piece of property that has laid dormant now for an extended period of t.ime. The applicant has indicated that the Kennel Club will not be used as a boarding facility, that their times of operation will coincide with a normal, and not an abnormal, business day, and I certainly think by granting this Use Variance that it will be the minimum relief necessary and adequate to address the hardship that's been proven by the applicant, and more importantly, at the same time, preserve and protect the character of the neighborhood and the health, safety and welfare of the community. The applicant has addressed the concerns of this Board, as far as excessive noise, waste removal problems, and I would look forward to welcoming them to that particular area. The Short Form EAF has been reviewed with a negative declaration. Duly adopted this 25th day of October, 1995, by the following vot.e: AYES: Mr. Thomas, Mr. Green, Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Ford, Mr. Carvin NOES: NONE ABSENT: Mr. Menter SIGN VARIANCE NO. 81-1995 TYPE: UNLISTED PC-1A GMRI/DARDEN RESTAURANTS, INC. RED LOBSTER RESTAURANT OWNER: QUEENSBURY PLAZA ILENE FLAUM 750 GLEN STREET APPLICANT PROPOSES TO INSTALL A 50 SQUARE FOOT FREESTANDING SIGN. SECTION 140-6 ALLOWS EACH OCCUPANT OF A BUSINESS COMPLEX ONE WALL SIGN. APPLICANT WAS GRANTED TWO WALL SIGNS BY VARIANCE NO. 44-1995. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) 10/11/95 TAX MAP NO. 103-1-1.2 LOT SIZE: 1.22 ACRES SECTION 140-6 JON LAPPER & BILL MACRUM, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT MR. THOMAS-"At a meeting of the Warren County held on the 11th day of October 1995, the above a Sign Variance for a 100 sq. ft. wall sign. the following action was taken. Recommendation Comments: The Warren Count.y Planning Board Queensbury Sign Ordinance should be followed." Powel South, Chairperson. Planning Board, application for: was reviewed and to: Disapprove feels that the Signed by C. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Is there anything significant to add to the application? that you'd care MR. LAPPER-Yes. Good evening. With me tonight, again, is Bill Macrum from Chandler Signs in San Antonio, and Chuck Hodgson, the restaurant manager, is also here to answer questions. I'd just like to start out by saying that we were appreciat.ive of the variance that we thought was a compromise last time. We were very happy to receive a variance to put the additional sign in - 23 - (Cueensbury Z8A Meeting 10/25/95) back, and we left here after that meeting, I believe, in July, feeling that we had done our job, we had all the signs that we needed to properly sign the building. However, when the building was constructed and we, and most importantly the corporate people from the restaurant, from Red Lobster, came to Queensbury to take a look at the new building, they were extremely displeased, and we all went out. and took a look also, and we were in agreement, that we didn't expect to be, that legitimately, because of the style and design of the building, there's a problem with that you can't see the sign, unless you're standing right out in front of it, coming on the travel corridors on Cuaker Road coming down Aviation Road, Quaker Road, and coming south down Glen Street, you can't see the signs. We think there's a problem. We're here tonight to discuss this with you, to get your input. We may not be asking for a vote tonight., but we're coming to you to tell you that we truly believe there's a problem. We've proposed a solution, and we'd like to talk about it. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Well, I'd like to bring to your attention that on t.he previous sign request, that as part of Staff Not.es, as the ground for argument, I guess for lack of a better explanation, Staff Notes obviously indicate that feasible alt.ernatives, "we have indicated that a freestanding sign would provide visibility from Glen Street, but this is not the applicant's preference, nor would it be preferable from a visual standpoint", and then later on I guess Mr. Macrum, "t.ypically we rely on pylon signs or freestanding signs for Red Lobster Restaurants. With this situation, we underst.and we can't do that. What we tried to do is create signage at key points on the building, and again, it's hard to find these types of architect.s in order to address the Route 9 Queensbury traffic", and it aþpears that we went through an extensive situation with the signs back a mere two months ago, July 19th, or approximately two months ago, and in our motion, I think by inference, if nothing else, the only feasible alternative to this particular situation might be a freestanding sign, but that would also require a variance, and I almost think that by, I know that my feeling at that time was that this was the compromise in lieu of t.he freest.anding sign, and I think from my standpoint, and I'm going to be brutally honest here, you're going to need a super majority, because I believe this has, more than likely, been turned down by the County? MR. THOMAS-Yes. The County disapproved it on Oct.ober 11th. MR. CARVIN-We have a five member Board. We have, how the other members feel, but I'm just letting you think you've got a very tough road to hoe, conversations t.hat we had a couple of months ago, and very strongly that anybody that can't find the Red from the Planet. Mars. I don't know know that I based upon I also feel Lobster is MR. MACRUM-I'm Bill Macrum with Chandler Signs, and I was here previously, and to go back to the first meeting when I was here, I had strong instructions from my customers, General Mills, which I'm an agent for. My understanding of the situation at that time was through the Design Department and Construction Department, that Red Lobster was not allowed to have a freestanding display, period, and that was, my understanding of the information I had at that time was it. had t.o do with the Queensbury Plaza, and there was a landlord stipulation, maybe because they have a freestanding sign at Queensbury Plaza display, voided us an opportunity of having a freestanding sign. My direction was to work with walls sign. One of the problems I have in this particular building, I made a comment, this is a new building. It's a new t.ype of architectural look for Red Lobster. It was one of the first five. We had not signed a building like that, and more specifically, I had not signed a building like that on that type of property where it's sitting on the diagram. There's - 24 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 10/25/95) very few areas to sign on that building, architecturally. By design, you end up having roof signs. There's wall areas with a front elevation. Off to your right there's another kind of portable shed that comes out, and then off to the rear there's a couple of opportunities for signs, which don't address the situation they have out here, which is the upper Glen Street and the traffic coming to it from Quaker Road. What I wanted to talk about, and everyone was here, from what I know, the other day looking at this building, the final walk through it, and then after being back up here today, they do have a problem identifying the building to the high traffic. I'm not talking about so much about the local market right here. As a lot of people know, you go down there and there's a lot of people standing in line t.o eat there. I'm talking about long term, the people coming in, tourist, and just building for the future, and we've talked to the landlord. I've gotten permission from General Mills, as of recent, and the landlord's approved for the Red Lobster to have a freestanding sign. What we need to do is to come back in, and I don't like coming back in for another variance. I didn't expect to have to do this, but seeing it today, driving by it and looking at it, day and night, I think that there is a legitimate problem. What we're trying to do is work through a situation where they've got a sign design, not asking for a huge display. We're asking for a sign that will only address the main thoroughfare, which is upper Glen, put some color to it, and this is basically what it would look like. It's a monument sign. It's not a pylon sign. It's eight feet high, and it's there only to address traffic going in either direction, and it will have some visibility back to Quaker, but it's mostly for safety sake, for people driving. I know, in talking with Chuck, the General Manager, there have been some problems. So, again, it's for discussion. I wanted to talk about it, kind of where we've been, and get your feel on it. MR. CARVIN-Any questions of the applicant? MR. GREEN-Yes. I'm going to jump in here, because maybe the rest of you have the same problem. This base that the Red Lobster sits over is going to sit directly on the ground? MR. LAPPER,,-Yes. MR. GREEN-So the whole thing from the ground to the top of the lobster is only eight feet? MR. LAPPER-Yes. Queensbury. This is very different than any other sign in MR. GREEN-Okay, because on the side view it looks like it's on posts almost. MR. MACRUM-It's a double faced sign. It's got some, it's three dimensional. The critter, the lobster itself stands off a little bit off the back ground. The copy is channel letters, just like on the building, and it's got neon inside of it. We have clear plex over it for safety sake. So someone can't come up and grab the neon. It's down pretty low, and then the lobster itself has a plastic (lost word) and it's got vinyl on the surface, and it's internally lit. So at night, you can see visible neon, as you do on the building, and then the critter will illuminate, and the rest of t.he back ground is opaque. MS. CIPPERLY-Have you considered what this eight foot height, what it's going to do in t.he winter when there's snow banks? I believe that'll be, since the corporate people come from Orlando, maybe t.hey hadn't thought of that. MR. MACRUM-That's a maintenance issue. I hear what you're - 25 - (Cueensbury Z8A Meeting 10/25/95) saying. I northeast, shovel and the past. know we've done a lot of monument signs in the and we've dealt with that. I know they get. out. the they keep it clear, but that has not been a problem in MS. CIPPERLY-Another comment I had, since looking at this again, since the wall sign issue, where we said that your previous Sign B that was on your other, you can actually sit facing, if you're coming down Route 9 south, you can see where that Sign 8 would have been, if you're sitting at that intersection. I'm, wondering if that wall sign would, like if you took your Sign C and eliminated that, and instead took the B. It depends on which traffic you're more concerned about. MR. MACRUM-This we're trying to pick up both ways in the simplest way possible. Again, I'm not trying to come in with a large pylon sign. It's a minimal monument sign. The sign, which on my print here says exist.ing lett.er C, that we put up, to me, it's there (lost words) Bank Street and LaFayette, but the biggest concern General Mills has, of course today, and I'm sure Chuck will have in the future in operating a business, is getting traffic in off of upper Glen, and with this type of sign, we're picking up both lanes of traffic. I mean, one of the things you go by it, too, as you're heading toward Quaker, on Glen right now. The front elevation of the wall sign is the same, until you're right there. Unless you're looking for it, you just won't notice it, The opposite direction, all you see is really a big red barn, and again, you're to the entrance to the plaza there, actually before you're able to see Red Lobster. Again, we're dealing with the t.raffic and the people, everyone here's very aware. We've talked a lot about it. You know it's there. I'm just talking about the average person coming in to Town going to a restaurant. MS. CIPPERLY-Another thought I had is right now the Cueensbury Plaza sign is really a minimal size, and unless you're looking for it, you don't see it, and I was wondering if perhaps the Cueensbury Plaza would consid~3r eliminating that sign, and putting up a Red Lobster sign instead. MR. MACRUM-I would be in favor of that. MS. CIPPERLY-Well, because really the doesn't seem to, unless you're, I had to and I sort of do this. Cueensbury Plaza sign go out and look for it, MR. MACRUM-That's certainly something that I would, we could have that conversation with the owner. MR, CARVIN-Any other questions or comments? MR. MACRUM-Again, I didn't expect to be here. Coming back and looking at it, I think it is a real issue. When we walked out of here, we felt pret.ty good about what we had accomplished, but it's there. It's up, but our feeling is that it's not properly identified. MR. CARVIN-Okay. If there's no other questions, I'll open up the public hearing. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED NO COMMENT PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED MR. CARVIN-Okay. - 26 - ........ (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 10/25/95) MR. FORD-The compromise in our last meeting that I proposed has already come back to haunt me, but I appreciate the fact that you were willing, and the desire to come in and talk with us tonight. However, we are not experts on signage. You are, and we try to apply our local standards in a fair manner. I think we did that before, and it's my opinion that poor planning and design on t.he part of the applicant does not constitute an emergency or a need for us to grant a variance. MR. LAPPER-I guess if I could just address that quickly. Part of, there's nothing intentional on our part. We're not trying to get two bites of the apple, and we would have liked to have properly addressed this the last time, but in terms of planning in advance, as Bill said, this is a new prototype, a new design of the restaurant, and because it's a freestanding building, the design differentiates it from other restaurants, with the interesting (lost word) lines and the way this is juxtaposed with the entrance facing at a diagonal, kitty corner to the property, to Glen Street, and all these things work visually to make it not look like your ugly box, or even just what the old Red Lobsters look like, with the old mansard roof that was kind of rectangular and boring, that we have an interesting building, but people don't identify it like McDonalds. Like you look at t.his and you say, there's a Red Lobster barn. It doesn't look like a restaurant, necessarily, and we think, legitimately, and we hope that within the next week you guys drive down, and I'm sure you've looked at it., but look at it at night. and see what Bill's saying, is you see this fuzzy red thing, but you don't see a sign that says Red Lobster unless you're right out front of it. I really think there's a problem. We're not saying that what we've proposed is the only way that this can get solved. This is one way, and we want to just distinguish that we didn't come in with a pylon. That this is a real attempt on Chandler Signs part to design something that would be more acceptable, understanding how Queensbury doesn't like a lot of signs, and it's not a pylon sign. It's a low monument sign. MR. MACRUM-If we'd have done this the first time, been here the first time, if there'd been a clear cut understanding of the landlord's position, as far as allowing, the landlord allowing a second sign. Typically when we go in and try to get a variance from the city or something like that, the landlord (lost words). MR. THOMAS-I wasn't here at the July 19th meeting, but I did read the notes, and it seemed to me like somebody almost promised that they wouldn't be back for any more signs, but I like Sue's idea of the applicant approaching the owner of the Plaza to replace the Queensbury Plaza sign, which is hardly noticeable, to replace it with a Red Lobster sign. I think this would alleviate the situation. I think it's a feasible alternative. MR. CARVIN-I was going to suggest a directional sign out where the road is. They can put that up without a variance, if memory serves correct. MS. CIPPERLY-They don't even need a sign permit for that. MR. THOMAS-Until about the 15th of January when there's 10 feet of snow piled on top of it. MR. CARVIN-Then they replace it in the 15th of April. MS. CIPPERLY-Shop N' Save had something similar. They started out with a four foot tall directional sign, and now they're, I think at the limit of six, because of the snow, and you just have to plan ahead, I guess. MR. GREEN-I'd have to kind of go along with everyone else here - 27 - (Cueensbury Z8A Meeting 10/25/95) tonight, that I was pretty much under the impression that this was settled previously. I'm glad it's a monument sign versus a pylon sign, but again, I've heard some other opportunities here. I thought the same thing that, gee, maybe you can incorporat.e the mall sign in with the Red Lobster sign, and make one sign out of it, and not have this problem. I think there's just too many alternatives to put another one in there. MR. KARPELES-Well, I wasn't even in favor of the "C" sign, but I have trouble with this, because it's not as though this were an existing building. This building was designed and built by Red Lobster for this location, knowing what the Sign Variance was in the Town of Cueensbury, and to me, that's a self-created problem. You just made your own problem, and I think you've got adequate ~:;ignage the'"e. MR. CARVIN-Okay. MR. KARPELES-In fact, I think we've got one too many signs, to tell you the truth. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Any other comments or questions, gentlemen? MR. FORD-I do appreciate, I believe, the position you placed in, when you get the corporate heads here and appreciate what you thought was adequate signage. that's an accurate characterization. have been the>' don't I believe MR. MACRUM-Somewhat. Things have changed from the first time that we had direction from the legal department. We do signs for them and have for seven years throughout the United States. This is a little unusual situation for us. Things have changed from the first time we came i~ to apply for signs to where we're at right now. I'm just being honest about it. That's the real world. I'm just here to t.alk about that, really, and do the best we can for our customer. MR. CARVIN-Okay. I would ask for a motion. MR, LAPPER-We would ask that, we would probably want to withdraw what we have now, and come back with something else, and talk to the owner of the Plaza, if we could get this in place of the Plaza sign or somehow incorporate this into the Plaza, if that might be something that this Board would consider. MR. CARVIN-Okay. So you're going to withdraw your application? MR. THOMAS-Do you want to table it or withdraw it? MR. CARVIN-I don't t.hink I'm even going because I think I've got three votes. t.here's no need to table it. to move for I mea n, I a tabling, think that MS. CIPPERLY-If you were to, there wouldn't be any variance needed if you were going to replace the Queensbury Plaza sign. There's nothing in the Sign Variance anymore that tells the Plaza owner what they can put on t.heir sign. MR. MACRUM-What is the size of directional signs? MS. CIPPERLY-Four square feet, and it can be illuminated. It can have the name of the, like you could put a little lobster on it. It can be up to six feet in height. That may be, as far as coming west on Glen Street, I think that would help, because you really don't see that building until you're just about at the driveway. I think a directional into the entrance there would help. - 28 - '- -- (Cueensbury ZBA Meeting 10/25/95) MR. CARVIN-Okay. So you're going to withdraw the application? MR. LAPPER-Yes. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Then the applicant application be withdrawn. Okay. Is come before the Board? Yes, sir. has requested that their there any other items to JOHN BROCK MR. BROCK-Good evening, Mr. Chairman. My name is John Brock from the Mooring Post Marina. I have an application for a Use and Area Variance with the Zoning Board, and last night, it's my understanding that, I'm a layman in this, but the Zoning Board asked to be lead agency on a SEQRA review. MR. CARVIN-That's correct. MR. BROCK-And last night I guess it went to the Planning Board and they want to be lead agency on the SECRA review. From what I understood last night, if they're lead agency, you have a lot of input. It was said last night that they do a lot of SECRA reviews, a lot more than the other Board. I guess, I don't want to see any further delays. MR. CARVIN-I can appreciate where you're coming from, because what you're telling me is news to me. MR. BROCK-Okay. They feel that they would like to be lead agency. I've gone through a year of my life, that I just wish I had never seen. Okay, but I don't know if it's a major thing for the Zoning Board to do the SECRA review, as long as it's done and done right, which I've got to believe, if they do all of these that they tell me they do, they know how to do them and do them right. I guess I would be feeling that way. Okay, and if they do that many, I guess what I'm asking is, I don't know if this Board would have a problem with them being the lead agency, and why they would. I would just like to see somebody say, look it, we're not going to spend months going to DEC, doing this, doing that. MR. CARVIN-Okay. I'm more than glad to share with you my understanding in this context, and I think I shared most of this information, if not all of this information, with the Board, in an Executive Session, because there is ongoing lit.igation with the Mooring Post, obviously. MS. CIPPERLY-I think the major points were also in the resolution about SECRA. MR. CARVIN-Yes, and we also did make the resolution. As I understand the SEQRA, we have to not.ify the other agencies that may be involved. Obviously, the Planning Board and also the Park Commis~:don . MS. CIPPERLY-And the Adirondack Park Agency whom we have not heard from yet. MR. CARVIN-To be very honest with you, I did not expect that the Planning Board would want to take lead agency status, because, quite honestly, this Board has tackled and grappled with the Mooring Post issue for the last year or so. So I think if anybody is familiar with what is going on out there, it should be the Zoning Board. So what you are telling me this evening, I was not aware of. I truly anticipated, if there was going to be a challenge, it would come from the Adirondack Park Agency. We had originally slated your hearing for November the 8th, or the 1st, but because everybody has 30 days to claim lead agency, I didn't - 29 - (Cueensbury ZBA Meeting 10/25/95) feel it was going to be fair to everybody to have a meeting on the 1st and not be able to do the SEQRA, which would require a second meeting. So, at. my request, I wanted to try to get, like you say, try t.o get all the ducks in a row, to t.ry to expedite this as graciously as possible. With this wrinkle that you've presented, I'm going to probably defer to Mr. Lapper, because as far as the Planning Board is concerned, do they or can they insist on being lead agency, or can we insist on being lead agency? Because I don't think I've ever seen a conflict in lead agency. JON LAPPER MR. LAPPER-What Mr. Brock is referring to is that there is a whole procedure, under SEQRA, when there is a conflict, and the DEC Commissioner decides, which often takes up to six weeks to get a decision. You submit it, your Board's resolution. MR. CARVIN-I should point out that Mr. Lapper is counsel for the Zoning Board with regard to the Mooring Post issue. MR. LAPPER-What Mr. Brock was referring to is that there is a SECRA procedure when two involved agencies dispute as to which agency should be lead agency, and two agencies request lead agency status, and the DEC Commissioner has the responsibility for making that decision under the circumstances. I also just learned about this today, that the Planning Board had also requested lead agency status, and I guess the first thing would probably be, I know that, I haven't spoken to the Town Attorney about it, because it's two Boards within the Town. He should pass on it first, and I guess it would be nice to know if it would be possible for one of the Boards to compromise, and I guess Mr. Brock, since your asking for this Board to compromise, I'm aware, from talking to the Chairman of the ZBA, that you'd like to expedite it at this point, after a year. MR. CARVIN-I, personally, don't have a problem if that is going to be the path of least resistance, because I think in fairness to Mr. Brock, I'd like to try to move this along. I mean, I don't really want to have a conflict here. I mean, as counsel to the Zoning, would it be advisable for us to step away from us, and I'm going to put it squarely on your shoulders. MR. LAPPER-I guess I don't want to answer that tonight, only because I would see the quickest way to deal with the whole thing would be for this Board to just have one public hearing, and make a SEQRA determination and be able to rule on the variance altogether, and I think that after a year of thinking about this, to the extent that there may be some modification on what was proposed, that would be something that, if this Board was going to do that, it would be able to do that under the SEQRA review, and then pass a resolution, if that were the way it's going to go. MR, CARVIN-Okay. Well, let me ask you this. If we decline to take lead agency status, in other words, agree with the Planning Board, when would the, what would be the earliest opportunity for the Planning Board to hold a SEQRA? Because we have to wait for APA, right? MS. CIPPERLY-First of all, we still have to wait for the Park Agency which, if they have Jurisdiction. MR. CARVIN-But they have, because we notified them, is that correct? MS. CIPPERLY-They have 30 days from last Thursday. - 30 - ...-" -- (Cueensbury ZBA Meeting 10/25/95) MR. CARVIN--Yes. MS. CIPPERLY-I tried to call them today. their jurisdictional question yet. They haven't decided MR. CARVIN-Well, I guess my question would be, now if we stepped back from lead agency st.atus, does the Planning Board now have to go through the same rigamerol of notifying the APA and the 30 days start again? MR. LAPPER-Yes. MR. CARVIN-Okay. MR. LAPPER-When are we going to hear from the APA? When does the 30 days run, Sue? MS. CIPPERLY-They would have until the, we notified them, the letter was sent out on the 19th, so, technically, they have until November. MR. CARVIN-Yes, but that's us asking for lead agency status. Now if we step a~<>Jay'. MS. CIPPERLY-So if the Planning Board, and I think there are some very valid reasons for the Zoning Board to do it, as we discussed previously. MR. CARVIN-But as Mr. Lapper indicates, that that could delay the whole process up to six weeks. MS. CIPPERLY-Well, perhaps the Planning Board would like to step down, especially in view of the fact that they're sort of at a disadvantage without an attorney, because their attorney, Mark Schachner, represented this applicant last year. So can no longer deal with the Planning Board on this issue. So I don't know if Paul Dusek is going to, I mean, it's very complex, and I think that the reasons that were put in the resolution that the Zoning Board, for one thing, has the most, the strongest issues to consider, and I think you're perfectly capable of answering those SEQRA questions all at the same meeting. MR. CARVIN-Well, let me ask hearing for the Mooring Post the SECRA stuff later? you this. Could variance, and let we schedule a them thrash out MR. LAPPER-Well, you can have a hearing, sure. MR. CARVIN-And if we have a motion on the variance, make it contingent upon. MR. LAPPER-No. determination. You can't have a motion until there's a SECRA MR. KARPELES-Can't we just make a motion that we would be amenable to the fastest way of resolving this, and if it means us withdrawing our request to do the SECRA, we'd be willing to do that? MR. CARVIN-That's what I'm trying to find out here. Sue is kind of indicat.ing that maybe the Planning Board should step back awa)l . MR. FORD-How does one resolve this? MR. CARVIN-It goes to the Commissioner. MR. BROCK-It's my understanding, and I had a meeting with Mike - 31 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 10/25/95) White, the Lake George Park Commission, and it's my understanding that. the Lake George Park Commission does 'not lI~ant. to gøt involved in the SEQRA review, and they would want the Town to do it. Now whether it is the Zoning Board or the Planning Board, the Park Commission doesn't really care, and I think that if the APA says they do not have jurisdiction, no jurisdiction is t.he samø for the Planning Board as it is for the Zoning Board. MR. LAPPER-Right. Yes. MR, BROCK-So they wouldn't really have to go back through this again, if, and correct me if I'm wrong. I don't know, okay. I'm being honest with you, but what I'm trying to say is, if the APA says, we do not have jurisdiction, okay. MR. LAPPER-And if the LGPC says they don't want it. MR. BROCK-The Lake George Park Commission says they don't want it, well, there is no more 30 days. MR. GREEN-I think you'd still have to notify them anyway. MR. BROCK-Yes. comfortable. You may have to notify them, but I feel pretty MR. CARVIN-Well, if we could expedite that correspondence out of those two agencies, we'd be all out of the woods. MR. LAPPER-But that's the answer, and sometimes when you want to move a project, you try and walk it through the Agency, because they have 30 days to respond, and if they don't respond, then their rights lapse. So sometimes instead of wait.ing the 30 days, and then they don't have it, you can ask them to right a letter in a week, and in a week that can be det.ermined, but to answer his question, assuming that both of those agencies don't say that t.hey want to be lead agency, then it. would only be an issue between this Board and the Planning Board. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Staff basis? Is that. something that we can follow up, on a MS. CIPPERLY-Yes. As I said, I did try to call the Park Agency today, and I would be surprised if they had an answer for me tomorrow, because a jurisdictional inquiry for them is kind of a project, both on the part of the applicant who has to complete a book, and they also have the right to request further information if they don't. think they have enough, in ordør to determine whether they even have jurisdiction. So, I don't think that it's going to be a real complex issue, but I don't think this is necessarily just a thing between the Planning Board and the Zoning Board, at this point, and I guess I would just, I would hate to see the Zoning Board relinquish something, and then still have a problem with the Park Agency. MR. CARVIN-First of all, I feel that the SEQRA belongs here. MR. GREEN-I think we should with that, no matter what the time takes. MR. CARVIN-I mean, I can appreciate the Planning Board having "more expert.ise", but I firmly believe that we have more expertise on this particular situation. MR. LAPPER-At the very least, you have a meeting on the eight, So we could look at the situation. MR. CARVIN-What I'd like to try to see is, I guess, a two pronged attack, here. If we can get something out of the APA and the - 32 - (Queensbury ZBA Meet.ing 10/25/95) Lake George Association, certainly this week if we could get them to relinquish the 30 day, that would free up our hands. I don't know if we're going to be successful, probably not. I mean, I'm just saying that I want to work with you, here, on this, because I agree with you. MR. LAPPER-A call between you and the Chairman of the Planning Board. I mean, there may be a way to just get that settled. MR. CARVIN-That's the second shoe is that I'd like to see, you know, I'll try to get a hold of Bob Paling tomorrow, or Paul Dusek, and find out why the Planning Board feels compelled to be lead agency here. MS. CIPPERLY-I think, once Maria has that section of the minutes typed up, we'll get those to you as soon as possible, and maybe you can see what went on last night. MR. CARVIN-Yes, and I'm st.ill going to try to get it on for the 29th. MR. BROCK-Let me ask. I may be out of line. I don't know. If, lets say this 5EQRA thing happens in the next couple of days, is that a possibility that the meeting would be moved back up? MR. CARVIN-I doubt it. It's more of a scheduling situation, because we have a pretty full boat. I know that we have probably 10 or 12 other applications which we were going to schedule for the eighth and the fifteenth. I really did not want to schedule the 22nd because of the proximity to Thanksgiving, and we were anticipating a bureaucratic snafu, the 30 days. So we thought that this thing would all kind of fall into place, so that the earliest that we could move forward would be at some point after the 18th or the 20th. 50 at that point, that made the next available time for this room was the 29th. I also feel that this is a significant enough of a project that it will probably have the only issue on the Board, on the agenda, and it's not something that I'd want to dovetail with, I think four or five other applications. So that is the thinking behind scheduling it for the end of November. I still would like to try to adhere to that time frame, if possible, and barring any unforeseen legal complications, I'm hoping that we would be successful in holding to that date. MR. BROCK-Okay. If you make a decision on that night, I have to go to the Planning Board. If that thing's approved, is there the possibility of getting concrete in the ground before it freezes? MR. CARVIN-Well, I appreciate your dilemma, and my guess is probably not, I mean, if I was a betting person. It really depends on what happens at that meeting, and the weather. Okay. Well, I appreciate that information, and either I or John or somebody will be in contact with you to bring you up to speed on this. MR. BROCK-Okay. Thank yoU for your time. MR. CARVIN-Thank you. Any other business before the Board? All right. Do you guys want to do some minutes? MR. KARPELE5-Sure. Lets get them over with. MS. CIPPERLY-This is a draft I was doing of the Use Variance application. So if you gentlemen would take a look at it in your spare time. One thing I was trying to do is get all the location and everything mapped on the first page, and if it's not there, we're going to reject the application. I basically said that on the first page. - 33 - (Queensbury ZBA Meeting 10/25/95) MR. KARPELES-Good. Thank you. MR. CARVIN-And if we can't find it, they aren't on it. MR. KARPELES-If I can't get in, I'm going to abstain. Any place I can't look at, I'm going to abstain. They ought to be well aware of the fact that we like to look at these properties, and if we don't. see them, then that's their tqµgh luck. MR. CARVIN-I agree with you, Bob. MR. FORD-We spend a lot of time out there on the road. MR. KARPELES-Yes. I drove all the way up there to see that doggone place, and I couldn't even get in. MR. CARVIN-There was one of them that didn't even tell you which side of the road, left or right, just drive and stop. MS. CIPPERLY-So if you can take a look at that, I'd like your input, and then another thing that's been happening, on the Use Variance applications, is how much of a site plan do you want for them, and I think you should have as much information as you would on an Area Variance. I think that,if there's things you'd like to see added to that list, I can use that same page in an Area Variance application. MR. CARVIN-Okay. This would be for the applicants to fill out, in lieu of our new one then, right? Okay. MS. CIPPERLY-I'm trying to make it like so Page One could be for any of the variances. MR. CARVIN-Okay. at.tached to this? Are we going to have like an agent form MS. CIPPERLY-Yes. That would be attached to the back, along with the Short EAF. I realized t.hat. the Use Variance application had never been updated to reflect changes that were done in 1994, I guess it was, a couple of wording changes in the Ordinance. MR. CARVIN-Okay. I think in keeping with Bob's comments, that any place on here, direction and map must be provided, and also, those bright orange things, they should be put in a visible spot, because we are not. MS. CIPPERLY-They're really helpful when they're there. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Did you say you wanted to do some minutes? MR. KARPELES-Sure. MR. CARVIN-Okay'. CORRECTION OF MINUTES July 27, 1995: In motion, page 1~, Use Variance #34-1995, middle of motion, although in all three cases the applicants are cLi fferent, the owner of the "problem" in question should be "property", and also Carvin introduced motion, seconded by Mr. Ford ~OTION TO APPROVE THE MINUTES OF JULY 27. 1995. AS AMENDED, Introduced by Thomas Ford who moved for its adoption, seconded by Fred Carvin: Duly adopted this 25th day of October, 1995, by the following vote: - 34 - -, (Cueensbury ZBA Meeting 10/25/95) AYES: Mr. Green, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Ford, Mr. Carvin NOES: NONE ABSENT: Mr. Menter August 16, 1995: NONE MOTION TO APPROVE THE MINUTES OF AUGUST 16. 1995, Introduced by Fred Carvin who moved for its adoption, seconded by Robert Karpeles: Duly adopted this 25th day of October, 1995, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Green, Mr. Ford, Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Carvin NOES: NONE ABSENT: Mr. Menter August 23, 1995: Page 15, Mr. Stewart, the basement only requires one outlet near the panel because it's not considered sib "living space"; Page 16, Mr. Carvin in the middle, and I'm not totally convinced that this can't be moved back further and still accomplish your living area because obviously you're telling me the downstairs area sib "a" redundancy; Page 64, in motion, that the variance is granted only for Jeffrey Thomas' occupancy of the proposed revised garage structure, and that if he should vacate those premises, that any kitchen or continued use of that structure as a second residential use not allowed by Ordinance, or the Town of Queensbury at that time the variance becomes null and void, take out "at that point"; later on, if he should vacate it or he should move, or you should move, then the unit loses its variance, take out words "has to its" MOTION TO APPROVE THE MINUTES OF AUGUST 23. 1995. AS CORRECTED, Introduced by Thomas Ford who moved for its adoption, seconded by Fred Carvin: Duly adopted this 25th day of October, 1995, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Green, Mr. Ford, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Carvin NOES: NONE ABSENT: Mr. Menter August 31, 1995: NONE ~OTION TO APPROVE THE MINUTES OF AUGUST 31, 1995, Introduced by Fred Carvin who moved for its adoption, seconded by Robert Karpeles: Duly adopted this 25th day of October, 1995, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Green, Mr. Ford, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Carvin NOES: NONE ABSTAINED: Mr. Ford ABSENT: Mr. Menter September 20, 1995: Page 26, Mr. Karpeles, I can't see how a fishing charter business is not going to have a detrimental effect on the neighbor, take out "has got", and replace with "is - 35 - (Queensbury Z8A Meeting 10/25/95) not going"; Page 29, I said damn, I meant darn; Page 27, Mr. Carvin, three quart.ers of the way down the page, I stated this before, I have no doubt in my mind that Mr. DiPalma, not Mr. Bleibtrey, has a use to the right-of-way, but I'm not positive that paying customers, friends, or other folks that are visiting Mr. DiPalma also have that use of right; MOTION TO APPROVE THE MINUTES OF SEPTEMBER 20. 1995 AS CORRECTED, Introduced by Thomas Ford who moved for its adoption, seconded by William Green: Duly adopted this 25th day of October, 1995, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Green, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Ford, Mr. Carvin NOES: NONE ABSENT: Mr. Menter September 27, 1995: Page 4, Mr. Carvin sib 30 days isn't going to make a "heck" of a lot of difference; Page 9, Mr. Karpeles, sib is that the only sign, not "they" only sign; Page 33, Mr. Karpeles, I feel that we have a safety hazard here, rather than I would feel like we have a safety hazard; MOTION TO APPROVE THE MINUTES AS CORRECTED 199~, Introduced by Fred Carvin who moved seconded by Robert Karpeles: FOR SEPTEMBER 27. for its adoption, Duly adopted this 25th day of October, 1995, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Green, Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Carvin NOES: NONE ABSTAINED: Mr. Ford ABSENT: Mr. Menter On motion meeting was adjourned. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED, Fred Carvin, Chairman - 36 -