1972-07-05
QUEENSBURY PLANNING BOARD MEETING HELD
,.JULY 5, 1972
Pre,siding o. 00 . . 0 . 0 . . .0 . . . . .Kushner
P:t'esent.....o.oo..<).....o.o.Kirkpatrick~ Mellon, Norton, Roberts. Sinnott
i"bsent. .. . . . . . . .0 . . . . . . .0 o. . ~nahan
Guesta......................Li.apes, Boynton, Katz, Coutant
~EGULAR SESS ION ~,;_~9:Q..,'.,~_
~h~'s. Mary Reilly, Court Reporter of Ac' r'L Heber & Assoc. has recorded this
m.?eting. Full transcript is on file.
10 Still Crick, Inc. , Development of Dean Howland.
Gordon Hemmett - Lake Gear ge Assoc. asking for letter of Mr. Morton of
July 1st and Dr. Carl George of June 30 be entered in record and offering
the opinion of others ~resent to help in this matter.
Clifford Witham commented on common sense Vermont in calling for a balanced
approach of conservation and development for Lake George.
Malcolm Coutant, Regional Attorney of No Yo S" Depto of Environmental
Conservation - stated he haa visited the site and they will use every
precaution to protect the wet lands" 011 question from Howland, Coutant:
stated that he felt Sect" 429 of the Old Environmental Law was broken by
Still Crick, Inco Th~.s pertains to filling areas which :were inundated by
'water for more than f:f.fteen <:onsecutive days in one yearo
Edward O'Ha-nlan stated he has photographs at various levels showing dredging
and where project was or is under watero
Discussion between Howland ~d Coutant - Coutant states that whether the
lake is at an illegal high level does not effect the" 15 "day inundation ruleD
Mike Apollo - stated the issue is to preserve and protedt Lake Georgeo
Howland states he is doing nothing illegal and the building is on a solid
concrete foundationo He says this is dry land as Kushner stated that
Howland could build one hous~ bu the project became a Subdivision when
there are five or more 10t80 .
'fhey have been driving 10 wheel trucks there and are filling only on solid
ground 0 He stated that the map was done by a professional engineer
,~llld is all that is needed for preliminary approval.
Kushner stated that the map does not i~dicate who prepared it.
John Quick stated that the Adirondack MOuntain Club is "opposed to commercial
development of the wetlands. .
Howhnd mentioned a lette~ of May 19th from Mro Brewer stat{ng that as of
this date that Encon has fino reason to suspect of your own knowledge you.
violated any department ordinance."
Unknown - Howland did ask Conservation Depto to inspect in development
and planning stageo Feels this is a minute portion of the wetlands and he
should be allowed to proceed and stop the next oneo
lolitham ... feels Howland is building on hard groundo Feels trther people
here are desecrating the lake as much as Howland wouldo
Hc~land feels it is the Towns duty to uphold the law and feels he has acted
and is proceeding with in the law 0
Stan Granger reaD a letter from Carl Send to Town Supervisor Gerald
SoloMun who abuts Howland lando Letter a~pres3es concern a~d opposition
to the propo~ed 5 or 10 acre plots in proposed changes to. Zoning ~nd
he does not ~ppose H~wland's development 0
Hemmitt asks for denial of preliminary approval and states that Howland
has other land that would not be in quiestion where he could builao
HOl'lland states he is not desecrating or d~~"'\edging the swampo He feels thaf:
the Planning Board had 45 days from May 8th which would be up June 17tb to
act on preliminary approval or d:f.sapprmTal and so feels he ha.s been
appro'\red by default~ He asks that the /,-rt.i1 be followed and he be given appro\
.al with the reason why.
HmfJland and Morton discuss Nature Const!:l'vancy d:lscussion 011. this lend 0
Quirk is concerned over use of power boats on mud at bottom of creeko .
Howland states 8' in middle of creek now - does not want p~~er boats
beyond this area where it gets shallow 0
Coutant - discussion of map fmbmitted by Howland for prelimi11ary approval ()
Kushner states there is no date, no name of person who drew this. He feels
we do not have a complete map to start t:ha [:-5 daYfL.
H,jwlaud - reads letter af May 3rd to Queensbury Planning Board submitting
plan for preliminary approval. He reviewed visit to site by Kushner and
Roberts IOn May 8tho He presents petition of all but on surr.ounding property
m~ers stating they have no objectionso The lOne missing is in her 80's
and was bedridden at that time. . .
Hammett - 0resented court case indicating the Banning Boards legal ?uthority
to ..:onsider ecology in decisions affecting :~:oning and planning.
Discussion on motors on creeko HDwland suggested that the Town Board could
limit the use af motors over three horae plOwer an the creeko Howland will
have launching ramp for use Df property owners in his develapment who
would trailer the blOats to the rampo
Sandy Collier suggests limiting the power boats on Lake George~
Dr. Ste.N'art - Lake George Researcil Center - State University of Na-J York
Preliminary testing of Dunham's Bay indicates can expect the percentage of
phosphate levels to be ten ti_mes higher. He suggests that the Tm'ffi of
Queensbury limit the horse power to ~ horse power on the creek to help
pre'."en t more problems,
PaulBrandt asks for town counsels opinion of the 45 days for prelim~nary
appr~val >
Harold Katz - Town Attorney .stated he did not visit site so he would nDt
be motivated by personal likes and dislikeso States there are 3 laws
to apply - State (Art. 16 of Town Law), Town of Queensbury Zoning ordinance
ana Subdivision regulation of the Towuo His opinion is that the Town
zoning ordinance and the Town ordinance regulating subdivision sites,
zoning B.nd planning precedes the State's statutes and as such it is within
the province of the BDard to render a decision either accepting or reject-
ing this proposal as made by Mr. Howland 0
Kushner asks for further comments and hearing nope states that we will
render an opinion.
ill cite as our first authoritY:I Town Law No 0 5, "Ordinance Regulath1g the
Develapment of Subdivisions in t.he ~own of Queensbury".
"I would also cite from the Zoning Ordina.nce of the Town of Queensbury,
Section 10200 which is General Intento "The intent of this ordinance
is to establish comprehensive controls for the development of land in
the Town of Queenst-..ury, based on the Master Plan for the TOlin and enac ted
in order to promote and protect health, safety, comfort, convenience and
general 'i-Jelfare Df the people 0 "
"I will alsa cite Section 1.300, Purpose 0 "Such reg'..!lations shall be made
in accordance with the Master Plan and designed to lessen congentian
in the streets, to secure safety from fires, flood, panic and other dangers;-
"to promote health and general welfare; to provide adequate light and air;
to prevent overcrowding of land; to avoid undue concentration of the public,
to facilitate the provisions of transportation, water~ sewage, schools,
parks and other public requirementso Such regulations ahall be made with
reasonable consideration, among other things, to the characteristics of
the district and the requirements of the particular uses and with a view
to conserving the value of buildings and encouraging the most appropriate
use of land tlroughout the Town 0 Ii
III also wish to cite Section 60902 which I shall find hereo II "First I tJill
cite Section 60901 which regards Site Plan Specificationso "Application
for multiple dwellings and planned residential groups shall require the
submission of a site development plan to the appropriate Board, said Plan
or Plans as submitted to either the Planning Board or the Board of Appeals
are required to shfiw all structures, roadways, pathwalks, parking areas,
recreation areaB~ utility and exterior lighting installations and land-
scaping on the site, all existing structures and usages within 200 feet of
the site boundaries, and any other elements as may be deemed essential
by the Planning Board or the Board of Appeals."
"Section 60902 regarding Planning Board; Board of Appeals Approvalo
"Every site plan submitted to the Planning Board (as a permitted use) and
to the Board of Appeals with referral to the Planning Board (special
exception use) in accordance with the requirements of this ordinance shall
contain such information and be in such form as either Board may prescribe
in its ruleso Approval shall not be granted until the site plan has been
approved by the Town Engineer and Health Offi'~:er concerning the adequacy
of the proposed facilities for fire protection, storm drainage waters,
water supply, and sewage facilitieso Approval of the site plan hereunder
by either the Planning Board or Board of Ap~eals shall expire one year
after the date thereof, if building permits have not been obtained f\Yt~
construction in accordance thereino" "Also, as Mro Katz has stated within
the structuring of our Town ordinance, there is no right, specific ri~ht
to preliminary approval. "lam going to ask for a motion from this Board
based on concern primarily for potential ecological damage to the wetlands
and possibly the Lake George area in total. ~AIso because there is a
question of possible ownership and/or juri.'")diction of control over the
adjacent wetland areas that we reject this application. I would accept
such a motiono Motion moved by Roberts, seconded by Sinnott and unanimously
approved 0
Howland asks for copy of the motion - Discussion on obtaining transcripts
from court stenographer - Kushner feels this is not practicalo Howland
feels we are out of order in not giving him a copy of this"
20 SoPo 132 Clifford Bo Witham - Witham appeared to ask for a postponement to
next montho Postponement grantedo Apollo asked if there will be a notice
of the next meeting on this when action would be taken. Kushner stated that
the Zoning Board would have a legal notice on their meeting on this"
30 Variance #237 = Carrols Restaurant - Motion by Norton, seconded by Kirkpatrick
and carried to recommend approval as long as the provision of Varo 1150
have been complied witho
40 Variance #242 Howley - Bowen - Lake George Road - Sign. Motion by Kirkpatrick
seconded by Sinnott and carried to recommend approval, 30' back from right
of way.
50 Variance #243 - Makesoil - Ounhams Bay - Remove present cottage and repl8.c(~
with new oneo 18\ feet from new (lake) side and 5 feet from side lineso
Makesoil appeared for thiso MOtion by Norton, seconded by Sinnott, and
carried to recommend approval as a hardship.
60 Variance 1214 - Sousa - Aviation and Dixon Roads - Sign less than 50' set
backQ Eric Luther appeared for this. Leased from Mro Sleight - problems
in lease as to improvement to property. Will do all they can. MOtion by
SiIU10tt, seconded by Kirkpatrick and carried to recommend disapproval as
this is Q non-conforming use and this will make this more non-conforming.
Norton opposedo
7 v Variance #245 - Kittredge - Gunn Lane - COft"-,([;!Ct garage to residence. Mrs 0
Kittredge appeared for this. MOtion by Kirkpatrick, seconded by Norton and
carried to recommend dis:;;i?proV'al as this would place two residences on one
lot. Roberts opposed. .
lL Vat'i,~:.I.ce 1246 - Coffin - Farm to Market Road - 8 horses year round to add
to building to house horses in winter. Coffin appeared.. Motion by Hellon,
seconded by Sinnott, and carried to recommend approval if neighbors are
considered with a time limit if the character of the area changeso
90 Next meeting August 2, 1972.
Adjourned 11:10 porno
Jo Arthur Norton
Secretary
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1
TOWN OF QUEENS BURY
PUBLIC HEARING
July 5, 1972
Mr. George J. Kushner, Chairaan
Mr. Harold W. Katz, Town Counsel
Members of the Planning Board
Mr. John Sinnott
Mr. Robert Kirkpatrick
Mr. Gilbert Mellon
Mr. Richard Roberts
Mr. J. Arthur Norton, Secretary
Time Started: 8:55
REPORTED BY:
Mary Reilly
2
MR. KUSHNER: I will call the July meeting
of the Queensbury Planning Board to order.
VOICE: Louder 0
MR. KUSHIrlEB: I won tt have any TOiee left
but I will do my best.
The minutes of the ~revious meeting were
not prepared in time so we will default with the
reading and can go immediately to the applicatioft
for Still Creek, Inco
Before we proceed wi tb.m- coBsid.ration
on this application I will first open with any
comment we may have from those present at the meeting
this evening either developer or anyone who wishes
to comment at this time.
(No response.)
Does anyone wet to be heard?
MR. GORDON HEMME'l'T: I represent the Board
of the Lake George Association and seTeral members
of the Association who are members of this town.
You should read letters into the record and
the Association arranged after you indicated at the
last meeting that you were willing to receiye material
concerning the wetlands and statement of position.
The Association forwarded some letters to you and I
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would ask that these be entered into your record and
perhaps it might be appropriate to present these
letters publicly tonighto I will abide by your
decision. We feel that the letters are rele'Vant and
state the things we are interested in and the things
we are concerned about. At least I would like you to
take these as part of your record.
MH. KUSHNER: Ar these the letters from
Lyle Morton and Dr. Carl George?
MHo HEMMETT: That's right. Mr. Morton's
letter of July 1st and Dr. George's letter of June,Oth.
MR. KUSHNER: Ve have those two and they
are 'Very complete in detail and certainly quite con-
v1ncLng. I think it might be sufficient to just ask
that these letters be submitted and represented on
the record rather than being read.
MHo HEMMETT: I appreciate and respect your
decision.
I would like to point out that the people
have been patiently waiting. We know you have other
business but I want you to know that they are
interested in the proceedings here tonight. If you
want to solicit their opinion, I am sure they will be
helpful to you.
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MR. KUSH1IER: Is there anyone that wishes
to be recognize~?
VOICE: In fairness ---
MR. KUSHNER: Please state your nalle for
the stenographer.
MR. WITHAM: Clifford Witham. In fairness
bere tonight I have been asked to make known the
fact that there has been meetings other than here
conducted by a group that calls themselves Queensbury
~axpayers Association which .1~1 undoubte~11 change
the name to Common Sellse New York and quite probably
affiliate .ith Common Sense Vermont. They are going
to speak for this group at the 8:00 p.m. July loth
meeting at Dunham' s Bay Lodge. I have been invited
to attend these meetings for the purpose of Comaon
Sense Vermont and hopefully Common Sense Hew York
1s to look at the facts 1n many of these ..tters
to study a movement which I know you people are not
the personification of.
The purpose of eo..on Sense Vermont and Com-
mon Sense New York 1s going to parallel those of
conservatory measures, inclusive of the developer
and various contractors, of desecrating the water of
Lake George with phosphates. In other words, a
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~~balance4 approach.
Thank rou.
(Audience claps.)
IIR. COU'fANT: I am Malcolm Coutant, Regional
Attorney of the Mew York State Department of Environ-
mental Conservation, Regions 4 and 5 and I 8Dl here on
behalt 01' the people of the State 01' flew York.
With regard to Still Creek, I have visited
the site and I assure you we will use every precaation
,
to protect the wetlands area. Thank you.
(Audience elaps.)
HR. KUSHDR: This gentleman with his hand
raisedo
MR. DEAN HOWLAND: Mr. Coutant, in your
inspection did you find we were breaking any law?
MR. COUTANT: Yes sir, I did.
MR. HOWLAND: What law?
MR. COUTANT: Section 429 01' the Old
Environmental Law.
ME. HOWLAND: To what does that pertain?
MR. COUTANT: Filling areas which were
inundated by water for more than fifteen consecutive
days in one year.
MR. HOWLAND: You bave evidence?
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MD. eOU'fAHT: Yes. we have gathered that
information.
MHo HOWLAND: How?
MB. COUTANT: I personally inspected and
by data collected. In obber words the area has been
inundated by water for lIlore than fifteen conaeritt..e
day..
MR. HOWLAND: Well, I 'Would 11ke to say for
the record Mr. Kushner did visit the property. We got
all of the way 40wn to tbe first hOllse that ls built
there with a permit aad this was last Saturday, 1s that
true?
MR. KUSHNER: Two Saturdays ago.
MR. HOWLAND: I know you are avare of water
eondi tions all ove1"'. He .1U8t had rubbers on in the are
that we have deTelol'ed. We have done no dredging; that
is cleared land and filled land. We walked on that part
MR. COUTANT: I fouad. it necessary to wear
hip boots except where you had filled in.
MR. HOWLAND: I can take you to thousands
of places around the Lake where you have the same
situation.
MB. KUSHNER: It is illegal to 1'111 any land
which has been inundated for fifteen days or more.
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MR. O"BAILOI: Mr. Howland stated that he
wasntt dredging. I have gi ventime and. I have taken
several photographs which will soon be available at
2,000, 1,000 and ;00 teet which I am sure depict all
of it and show in detail that he is moving land and
how the thing is under water. My photctgraphs will
show water in the area line. The dredging starting
east to west. ~his contradicts the statement I made
last time and I feel it is necessary to correct the
statement.
MR. HOWLAND: It is colllllon knowledge we are
digging for ponds. We are not dredging anywhere and
the ponds are being dug there on land, that is true.
MR. o 'HANLON: I all referring to dredging
ditches in a westerly direction slightly north and
the photographs sbow very clearly it is being used
as a method of drainimg and water 18 being displaced
from the 1'111 and the photes show this very well. I
have enlarged photographs which SDoW evacuation going
on 1,200 feet fro. the creek.
MR. HOWLAND: Sir, this is very misleading.
Mi. O'HAILON: M,. photographs will prove
this. I think a picture 1s werth a thousand words.
MR. HOWLAITD: Mr. coutant, when you mentioned
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section 429 of the old Conservation being illegal?
MR. COUTAIr.r: To fill or dredge or harass
or modify.
MR. HOWLAND: That see.s complete-land that
is under water fifteen days or more.
How does that reflect in 80me aspects and
80me times the water levels of Lake George which are
not kept within legal maximum depth?
The International :Paper Company lias using
the lake to provide for mill ponds.
MR. KUSHNER: I don't believe this pertains
to the discussion.
JIIB. HOWLAND: If the water level surpasses
the legal IDaXiBl\lll and the dam at Ticenderoga will be
under vater for those days, it would be illegal, how
wo,14 that reflect back?
-MR. COUTAllT:Our statutes and laws and repla-
tions, it is quite simple language. It states if the
area is inundated for more than fifteen consecutive
dar8, not how or why, just whether or not the water is
there, then the statute applies.
MR. KUSBJEB: Anyone else?
MIKE APPOLLO: I.. curious to know where
Mr. Witha. went to law school.
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~he first meeting I attended, the speaker
at that tiae cOllmenced b~s spe.ch stating that a large
dredge could do a lot of' damage. That impressed me.
r think all of us love Lake George and adopte4 the laws
and re!Ulationa and so forth when the ordinance went
through. We improved our p~rt,.; when taxes went up,
we paid them dd I slree with Plr. Celltut that the
water is inundated for at least fifteen days. Ko one
can tell me it isn't. I don.t know whether the
International Paper allows the water leTel or not.
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low the issue, we want to preserve and pro-
teet Lake George and we like tel be Ul'ulisturbed.
(Audience claps.)
MR. GRANGER: Is there any bUilding on the
SWa8lp'~that has been 'b1Iilt?
MR. KUSHlfER: Yes. 01.\8.
MR. GRANGER: If 011e is allowed., why is it
"being stopped now?
MR. KUSHNER: 'rhis is an application under
~.
subdivision. When there is five or more lots we haTe
no jurisdiction over one.
VOICE: In other word., he cow.lei build four
lIore.
MR. O'HANI,OI: I am curious to know wh,. Mr.
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1 Howland built his home on a stilt-type effect rather
2 than on solid ground?
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MR. KUSHIlm: The grolilnd ---
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MIl. HDVLAlID: May I answer?
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MR. KUSHNER: Sure .
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MR. ROWLAND: I obTi0\1.8ly haTe been at
many hearings and have a great deal ot infomatlon.
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We discussed aredging the ..amp and Conservation
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OfficialS will be dOlm there and if w.~"'.re dredging,
we would be stopped and given a sammons; which we
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haven't been given. We have built on a solid concrete
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foundation. The foundation was put in last tall. We
have sliding gla.. patio doors you can .0Te with your
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finger.
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I can g1 ve you further evidence. God 118Y
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be able to walk on water, I c1oh't share this wi th Hia;
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Maybe Mr. Coutant does.
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We drive ten-wheel trucks in there. You,
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young lad, should know your father is doing the fill.
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We do this on solid grolUld. It i. )lIt i.possible
21 that this should be implied right along. It is
22 ridiculous. You are like the blind following the
23 blind. It is not true what 1s being said; we are
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back three to four hundred feet, we are on solid
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ground. If you look at the map, it is clone by a
2 protessional engineero
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MR. KUSRHER: I question what professional
4 engineer.
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Jim. HOWLAND: 'fhat's a preliainary, that is
all that is required on preliminary approval.
PYR. KUSHNER: We haven't seell it.
PIR. HOWLAND: You don't until TOU get the
final.
JOHN QUEB:K: I want to take exception to
"the blind leading the blind.- I don't think we are
lUlaware of what's happening.
We have on the record stating our opposition
to co.mercial develo~ent ot the wetlands and the
people of the Adirondack Mouatain Club are simply
opposed to commercial development. Whether Mr. Howland
i. build1mg on stilts is irrelevant to uSo We don't
want to see the land developed, w. would like to stop
that measure. We want no blacktops, eement, patio
doors that move with the touch of a finger. Not all
21 of us are neeessarily blind about the wetlands. That's
22 it.
23 (Audienee claps.)
24
MRo KUSHNER: Will the people in the back
13
please speak louder so we can get it on the record.
Anyone el.e?
CLAUDE BRANDT: I am a taxpayer in the Town
of Queensbury. Is l1"r. Howland indeed filling the
wetlands illegally or is he indeed not filling?
MR. KUSHNER: Who are you as~ing?
MR. COUTANT: I belieye I will answer.
Conser'Tatlon Officials did, visit the area
but not all of it. The sole issue is the que8tion
of violating the mean high water of Lake George. I
don't propose to determine at this point whether or
not such is the situation. I do not make any reoOE-
mendation or opinion that it has been Yiolated. I
do not knoW' whether legal action will be taken or not.
We are not in the position of being poliee agents
although we may necessarily become so in some areas
and the law will be enforoed to protect the environ-
men t .
One ~uestion was raised about one house
being allowed. We have thousands of conservation
officers who are not acting police agents. We try
to make them understand what the purpose of the law
is, we intend continually to do 80 and ' will take
a~ 'ftrlngent approach if we haye to.
14
MR. BRANDT: Why is one muse built?
MR. COUTANT: Perhaps we didn't question
whether or not the law was being Tiolated. There is
a house there ana we accept it, but we seek to prevent
the future violation of that particular areao
One final action we are concerned with many
times is the techniques of any developer and request
the information on paper in order to determine what
the individual project is going to look like. Off times
the developer is allowed to build one home and I think
tbe department 'tfO-ul4 be unreasonable to take that down
or reverse a position whieh we believe he did in good
faith and I make that determination publicly in front
of hi. because I don't believe he inClended to violate
, (-
the law.
I think that answers several questions.
PIR. HOWLAND: I rai_se one other question.
You indicated just now that Conservation
Officials were not allowed to go in certain spots.
AUDIENCE: Ko, No.
VOICE: You're misquoting. It's on the
record.
MR. COUTANT: I indicated some part of the
swamp they didn't go see.
'1
15
MR. HOVLAND: As we are on the record, let
2 the record show I have this letter dated May 19th from
3 Mro Could. -I have been advised on this date, based
4 on the report we have no reason to suspect of your
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own knowledge you violated any department ordinance.-
lffi. BRANDT: You never let me finish my
question.
VOICE: In fact, Mr. Howland did ask tlte
Conservation Department to inspect his development and
during the planning stage of this development did every
thing to get your coo~eration sa4 to act within the
law.
It looks to me that portion of the wetlands
that he is affecting 1s less than one per cent of it.
I think it might behoOTe the Board to look at it at a
practical point of view. He did eTerything he knew
how to co_ply within the law and as far as he knows he
is within the law.
He does comply; yet it looks like you are
going to make him lose everything he put into that
minute portion of the wetlands. You h~e a moral
obligation. He has done everything he mows to comply
with your law.
If the SJstem. of Lake George or the wetlands
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are fouled up you need to change the law. Hang the
2 next guy; let's not do it to this guy. If you turned
3 thi s guy down how ean you rest tonight.
4 (Audience laughs.)
5
MR. KUSHNER: I belieT. I recognized Mr.
6
Witham.
7
MR. WITHAM: I wasn't aware I was quoting
8
as an. attozeney. I haTe s,ent seyeral hours with
9
Attorney Green from the State of Vermont talk1ag
10
sbout InternatioDal Paper.
11
As far as Mr. Howlaad's development, I baTe
12
been down there. I haTe seen homes within se"fersl
13
feet of the edge of the .ar.ho I think it is a cammon
14
misconception from one extreme to another extreme.
15
There is a marsh there and. then a :roisimg ground and
16
hard land. Mr. Howland has built and where he will
17
build further'h is buildlq on. hard ,ground.
18
Is it approximately 35 acres that you ftaTe
19
set aside Mr. How~lad?
20
MR. HOWLAND: Yes.
21
PlRo WITHAM: As tar as the other thing, I
22 won. 't get into dralnageo Drainage should be at least
23 a foot at the shore fron.t; that doesn't .ean 1 t should
24
be allowea..
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There are people here that do all of 'the
2 damage. There should. be gi.e and take here. l'1'1e8e
3 people are desecrating the lake and are despoiling
4 the lake.
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VOICE: Mr. Witham shoald be the last one
to speak.
MR. KUSHIEi: We are getting 8way from the
subject.
MB. APPOIJ,.O: He should be the last one to
talk about the legality of it .y friends. I know that
the Association \..... not aoti.ated by financial gain
or by greed. W.e are here purely for the lo.e of the
lake and I think this should apply here. I believe
Mr. Ho..land was advised before he moved. How, Mr.
Coutant say. here the first house he put up should be
let stand because he prObably acted in good faith.
State officials can be wrong in gi.ing deci-
sions that you all know. I happen to be an attorney
and that.s why I all speaking out. I kno.. man,. judges
who make wrong decisions.
MR. HOWLAND: This gentleman is an attorne,.
22 and he can, .h~. you th4 tit is your duty to 0 bIIerve
23 the law. It is everyone'. duty to obserYe the law
24
and it is the duty of the~l~' Town of Queensbury to
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observe their own law.
I bought the property after the zOlling was
in existence just lilte &nyol'le else would do. The first
thi~ I did was to study it the SU$mer betore ~ bought
the property. The situation 1n this piece of property
is ideal, better than anyone that 1s here. It is an
ieleal s1 tuat1on. I stud1ed 1t before I bought the
property. Iwasn't 111 aaTised. I haTe been in the
bus1ness all of .y life and I say your lawyer 18 OD.
ligated to follow the Is.. If you want, Qhange the
zoning oXlnanoe but you can't stop .e.
MR. WI1fHAM: I 8lIl going to agre. 11'1 th you.
VOICE: To follow the law. If the law
says inlHldat~, that's the State law which truscenda
tbe Town Board Daw.
MR. HEMMEft: If 1'011 CO down there and take
and look at the elevation you will f1nd that the
property 1s at least a foot betore the elevation.
MR. HOWLAHD: How can 70U say inundated,
you are talking about ra1n water.
MR. HEMMEf'l': Your friend says we haTe the
moral obligation but it is a legal obligation.
MR. APPOLLO~ What you are interested in is
a pocket full of money.
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MR. HOVLAID: Sir, I wish I had it.
MR. KUSHNER: Is e..ryone speak:i1lg loud
enough fo r you.
REPORTER: I would appreciate it if the
people in the baek could speak a little louder.
VOICE: I al.o own som. pareel of laJUl.
Pm. KUSHNER: Pleaae gi.. your l'laIle.
VOICE: Gerald Sol01l0n.
I bay. a letter I would like to read.
MR. KUSHIER: We would be happy to hear it.
Please co.. fOMlard.
MR. SOLOPlOJh Thi. i. a letter ataN..ad to
JIIr.. Gerald B. So 1 omcm. , SllperYisor, Town of Qt1eenal:nlry,
Queensbury Town Office, Bay 8lld Haviland Roads, Queens-
bury, New York 12801.
-Dear Mr. Solomon:
I was forserly a Vice President and the
Treasurer of' the Glens Falls Insuranee Company, and
now retired and live ona 200 acre farm on Ridge lOad,
approximately two milea 110rth of the Farm to Market
Roado.
Can you all hear me?
AUDIENCE: Yes, ".'0
MR. SOLOMON: (Contilu,ling) -I, as well as
11
20
a l1U11lber of my neighbors, am concerned about the
recomaen4atiol1 of "urphy & Kren Planning Associates
to the Planning !oard to limit the sales ot property
parcels to five or ten acre plots as well as some of
the other restrictions on such sales that have been
discussed at soa. of the Plannlng Board m.etings.
I sincerely believe that any limit on the
size of property plots to be sold should be unlform
throughout the Town aad. tha t any zoning ordinance
which applies dlfferent rules on land sales to thls
part of the Town ls arbitrary and discriminator,..
I have no deslre presently to sell any of my land for
a real estate developJHl1t or to any ind1 vidual, that
it is not fall" or equitable to have the Town Beard
aJ>prOTe any zonlng ordinance which preyents .8, a
future oner of my land or .,. nelghbors from selling
their land on exactly the I.e basis as any owner of
land elsewhere in the Town.
I belieTe the thought has also been expressed
that one of the rea.ofts for the proposed rules ls to
concentrate the growth of the 'rowa areas where water
and sewer faeili ti es are not proT1.4ed. I f such a
philosophy has any merlt, then any restriction on the
size of land parcels to be sold should apply to all
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areas of the Town which do not now have such facilities.
Basically, I believe this philosophy i8 fallacious for
the reason that those of us who li ye in the couhtry
Can provide our own water and sewer facilities on a8
satisfactory a basis as those who are provided these
services by the T0101.
You have no doubt obserTed the number ofne.
home. that have been but 1 t on Ridge and Bay Boads duri
the last 10 - 15 years. Generally all of these homes
are well constructed aJ1d 11~. 01It- on large lots.
Throughbut the whole country there has been a great
expansion of home building in areas which were foraerly
considered ruralo I believe that this trend to aove
to the country 1s just as strang here as in other
parts of the country and Will continue. It. sure
that lIost of the owners of these homes wanted to get
out of Glen. Falls or other populated areas and did
not want to live in West Glens Falls or the Aviation
Road areas. I ~ sure that you will find that none
of the owners of these properties wanted as lIuch as
five or ten aeres of lando Any land plot over one or
two aeres is a burden to the owner if he il a 'Working
.an aad does not haTe the time or machinery l1ecessary
to properly maintain it. I believe that the owners of
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saleable building lots north of Farm to Market Rosd
shoUld be allowed to sell such lots on exactly the
same basis as those in any other part ot the tom.
It would seem also that any zoning restric-
tion which requires that all land aales must contain
OTer one or two acres is entirely descriminatory to
the person who wishes to buy only a good-sized lot tor
his home. Why should such a purchaser be required to
pay taxes on more land tlen he desires? In fact suCh
an ordinance would haTe the effect of encouraging
future home owners to look outside of the Town of
Queenebury for a plot of land which they want. Taxes
in our Town can be only reduced or kept at a reasonable
leTel by encouraging good citizens to build nioe homes
and live in our town."
This is the part that concerns our discussion
(Continuing) "I also own a saall parcel of
land whi eh adjoins Dlmham' II Bay. I all fully aware of
the efforts of the Nature Coneeryanc1 Group and the
Lake George Association to preserve the area. bearding
on the Lake for wild11te and to prevent any property
construction :which would result in J)Ollution of Lake
George or detract from 1 ts beauty. I am sure that the
owners of the plots of land such as mine do not
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quarrel with these objectives. I do resent, however,
the efforts of special interest groups to control the
sale and development of land to persons who will install
the most modern systems to control sewerage waste and
will preserve the beauty of the Lake. Here we have an
effort of groups of people who are COIlparati ve17 well
off financially, who generally live at tne lake only
two - four months of the year attempting to maintain
their status quo and prevent other people les. fortunate
from eJljoying all of the advantages which Lake George
offers. This i8 basically.... distinetion a1'ld I don't
believe tbet Town Board should subject itself to these
pressures. It would seem that we have seen al1d. are
seeing througholtt the country the problems which arise
when minority groups are depri ved ot right s to .hi eh
they believe they are entitled under the laws of our
eountry. Unless our Ton Board is intelligeJ!lt enough
to proteet the rights of small land owners and minority
groups, it 1s not unreasonable to expect that legal
action will be taken in due time by these gr'Oups to
enable them to establish and protect their rights and
ferce the 'fown Counsel to reverse any lmfavorable
aetion of a aiseriminatory nature the~ might take with
respect to zonin!. It would se_ that our Zoning
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Board and Town Counsel can forstall such action by
carefully considering the rights and interests ef all
the residents of the Town before approYlng and ZOIlUlg
ordinances which are considered discriminatory and
unfair to resi.ants in certain areas.
Your attention is directed. to the enclosure
which seems most appropriate to the present problea.
The article would seem to conftrlll 80me of the thoughts
I haye expressed above.
Because we preaently have no Counaelaan
representing the interests of residents north of the
Farm to Market Hoad, I urge you to Bee that our
interests are fairly presented and protected and that
no zoning ordinance. are adopted which will be
detrimental to the gro.th of our Town.
Very truly yours, Earl E. Sand.-
(Audience clapB.)
MR. KUSHNER: Anyone else?
MR. HEMlm'1'T: Several things YOll SUIl up I
would like to coament on.
First of all, the people that are here are
interested in everyone being able to enjoy the wetlands;
they are not here to advise for or against anybody. As
the State Representative indicated he represents the
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people of the State and we feel our interests are
consistent with his because we are interested in the
wetlands being available to the citizens of the Town
and people of the State for general enjoyment; as .e11
as the protection of Lake George and the ..tlandso
I haTe asked you to include iD the record,
whieh you did ar;ree to include in the record, letters
wherein there are a nuaber of reaseJ'la stated 'by':. "
Dr. George why the wetlands should be protected.
In regard to the law of the 'town, s_e aomel'lt
ago the remark was made~ I see the Town Attorney up
there, I am sure that he is cognizant with the zoning
is~e. I am concerned ~bat the record be accurate.
It is lilY UJUleratan4ing that a large scale
development could be regulated, sheuld be subject to
regulation, att.~the first installation was built.
Row the problem is betore the Town Officials as well
as a cone~rn to the State.
Also the last thing I would say. I think all
of our conversation tonight and all of our conversation
at the prior Planning Board hearing had to be -- this
is the Planning Board, right?
MR. KUSHNER: (Nods.)
MR. HEPlKET'f: 't'here has been a lot of talk
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about the appropriateness of a preliminary proposal in
the ordinance and I have not found any particular
reference to a preliminary approval. I am not SU~ We
have any defini tlon and I all flot sure 1 t i8 neceslary.
But 111 underst.aBding i8 roughly BOlleone who is intend-
ing to make an investment can post and state his
intentions sad. get seae indicatio!l he i8 proceecling
in the right d.irection or get sOIle sort of guidance.
That's fine. We all understand and appreciate that.
But I would suggest because of all the things
that haye eo.. Gut at this lIeetillg as well a8 at the
prior Planning Board meeting and intervening meeting,
which I would ask you to consider that a n~ber of
serious i88ues have been raised and have been docu-
mented for your consideration and that these should
all lead 'OU to consider a denial of a preliminary
application. A preliminary application is approval,
is appropriate when everything looks good when everrt
looks there won't be harm to adjacent property owners.
The risk to the developer is mlnimal. You might see
when the general public would not be d.8,IIaged and per-
haps benefit many. I .~est that all this should
lead to a denial for preliminary approval.
In conclusion I would point out I haven't
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accepted Hr. Hovland's i.vitation to tour his property.
I do go by there freq\1M1tly, I have inspected his map
which is filed and talked with people who have been at
the property; and it is my impression that he has a
large pi..e of property there and there are in fact
other areas where he eould de.elop without danger to
the wetlands. So I would say any atmosphere of hard-
ship on him should be considered 1n light of the fact
that this is not the only parcel. He has other areas
where he could develop without danger and without
concern; which he has indicated ss good, high and dry
building sites.
So I would suggest based on all of this in
behalf of the people who I represent, I would ask that
you deny the application for preliminary approval.
(Audienceuclaps.)
MHo HOWLAND: As long as we are on the
record tonight; this has been reviewed many, MaDY
times and I am sure the same people are here again.
I wasn't going to sa1' a word tonight. You
suggested I have other lands and onee again it is the
very thing I tried to impress you people here. That's
what we want alsoo We are not desecr.ting the swamp as
has been sat d. Weare no t dredging the swamp and I
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can't seem to get across to you folks and I invite you
again.
We have been forced to move out of the area
because we were not given permits but by the middle of
next week we will be working there again. I invite
you, I believe that is fair enough. I invite you to
come out there. I will stop 'Work and take you down
and show you the area. I auggested that before. I
think it is a very fair thing. I will show you we are
not working in water. Maybe the Lord can walk on
water, I haven't been that privileged yet.
As far as approval or disapproval,I went to
Mr. Cune, who is Senior Attorney for the Land Claim
Division of the State of New York with my son. We met
with Mr. O'Dell who i8 associated with the Land Planning
Division of the State of New York. We went there four
days after the meeting of the 8th. At that time, Mr.
O'Dell told me or he informed Mr. Cune that the Planning
Board was obligated to give approval or disapproval
within 45 days. Mow, I brought this up at the meeting,
I received a letter from Mr. Cune stating the State's
position. The 45 day period was up on the 17th of
June. According to instructions we haTe from the
State level, we have approval by default.
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Now, I send a oopy of this correspondence to
the Town At~rneys and ask them simply to follow the
law as I am doingo I believe the people feel the same
way. You must follow the law. You have been all been
given the wrong impression; it's been deliberate.
I believe I am making a fair proposal. We
...,., just as interested in preserving the condi tion of
Lake George as anyone.
Now the fact that I am building less expen-
sive houses, I want to tell you all that I have done
a lot of testing on my own. I have tested the waters
around Rookhurst and if I printed it in the paper you
wouldn't like it. I bet anyone here to do the same
thing by independant testors. Take tests around
Rockhurst, Assembly Point, and a oouple of the coves
by independant testors and print 1 t right in the paper
and let the chips fall where they w111 _ whioh is
something you wouldn't dare do.
I .ave a lot of friends there and I don't
want to hurt them. But I haye be_ pressed to get
sewage systeas in there. This is what you must do.
You have a fabulous organization only if you directed
your effort in the right way you could clean up the
Lake. You are close to disaster. You don't seem to
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understand that and 1o__re blaming me. You haven't
put ....r~sy8t81lls in. I am in"iting you to see where
we are putting the sewer system - you must make your
efforts in the right direction. You are tryin~ to
stop other people who are juat a8 interested as you
are. You would never know that from What you hear.
It's wrong what you said, very, very wrong; we do
have appro Tal by default.
I don't know what the reacti on is go lt1g to
be here. All you had to do was approve or dlsapproTe
with a reason why. That's all we asked for. I haTe
the letter from tbe Senior Attorney of the State of
New York; they all have coples here. He spells it
right out, I brought it out in the meeting. '1'hey
didn't want to follow along. Ve have approval by'
default. I don't know what the problem is about.
What's going to happen here, it will probably be a
legal question but we haTe waited 1ty:.Qilt.
Mr. Morton, did you get full cooperation
from us in waiting as to what Nature Conservancy was
going to do?
KR. MO!lTON: I don't know what you mean by
cooperation.
MR. HOWLAND: The information you wanted.
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You said they were considering, we said we would sit
tight and wait. A. far as we were concerned we did
everything legally.
MR. Jl[OBTON: You haTe been. oontacted by
Nature Conservancy?
MR. HOWLAND: No, sir. We were contacted
by appraisers. We spent hours with themo
MR. H01rl'ON: You were oontacted by repres-
entatives of Nature Conservancy?
MR. HOVLAJiD: Contacted by two appraisers
for the State of Wew York.
MR. l'IORTOW: You and I talked twice on the
telephone and I informed you that the State and
Nature Conservancy is moving hand in hand.
PIR. HOWLAND: Wbat I am tr,i21g to state on
the record we haTe cooperated within the law with the
Town Board and with the ConseMation DepartJBeBt _
with eTeryone.
MR. KUSRlfER: I recocni ze the t;entleaan in
the back.
PlH. QUIRK: Mro Howland, I was told that the
parcels of land where the bu.ilding site ls, that in the
deed there is 80me statement that these people had
acce.. to Lake George.
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MHo HOWLAND: Yes, sir.
MR. QUIRK: According to Glens Palls
3 Chapter it is considered extremely dange~us.
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MR. 1I0WLAND: Why?
MR. QUIRK: Because there is a delicate
mud bottom in that section where you are building
your lota. Unless you are going to use air boats to
get o.er this .ud bottom; the.e power boats will whip
up the mud bottom of the swamp.
MR. HOWLAND: Sir. I have to interrupt you
right now.
Right now in the .iddle of the creek there
is eight foot of water. You want to come down. we
have get a canoe. I will taKe you out and let you
measure it.
Once again. it is a misconception. It is
fifty feet wide and there 1s eight foot of water.
MR. QUIRK: Vill it hold all of the ~','~,
up.
MR. HOWLA:ND: Beyond.. it gets shallow and
21 it di es. I ha.e been up there JItaI11 times. We are dead
22 set against power boats in there. Ve btrft covenants
23 of our own against it.
24
Now, you say you have been up there. Why do
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1 you object to people living out there? It doesn't
2 make sense, does it?
3 (Ho response.)
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MR. KUSHHE:B: Let the chair recGpize Plr.
Coutant.
MR. COU'l'ANT: In answer to Mr. Howland's
question.
Has the map that has been su1::llli tted been
made a part of the record and will it be 80 if it has
not?
MR. KUSHNER: Repeat the question.
6. COUTAN'l': Will the map; I understand
Mr. Howland made an application for approval within a
certain period Qf time.
Is that particular document ,part Qf the
record and if not, I request that it be made part of
the record.
MR. KUSHNER: Yes.
Pm. COUTANT: Is this the map?
PIR. HOWLAND: Yea, sir.
MR. COU'rANT: Mr. en.i Nan , I ask you to
22 tell .e the dates attached to this map?
23
24
MR. KUSHNER: No dates on this -ape
PYR. COUTANT: I would ..ky'4Ql st- _ tire
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name of the person who drew this map?
MR. KUSHNER: That I all unable to do.
MR. COU'l'A1fI': Is that a complete map if you
don't haTe the date and the name of the person who drew
it?
MR. KUSHNER: These are pieces of a map
that should be on an appropriate map.
MR. COUTANT: In light of those stat_euta
I would say you haTe ftot had aD application made yet
under which you had to act within 45 day.. You wouldn't
latow who to send tbe answer to eTen if you did deci4e;
eTen though we know Mr. Howland is here _ that the map
i. not c..plete.
MR. KUSHNER: I recognize someOJ'le down the
back.
MR. COUTANT: One final thing. I happen to
work ---
VOICE: We can't hear you.
MR. COUTANT: One final thing. I would like
to say that I work for the State as a Senior Attorney.
While it may seem significant to people who don't work
for the State, within the State it is a moderate level
of competence. 50 I would say Senl.~ Attorney is far
from the top it is not at the bottoma
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VOICE: There is more than one?
MR. COUTAHT: In the department I work out
3 of, there are seventeenattorneYI; twelve of them are
4 senior attorneys. So the bulk of the attomey8 do
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work for the state. After you work three or four
years you become a senior attorney.
MR. HOWLAND: To clarify the record.
(Mr. Howland reading a letter.)
-To1ft1 of Que en sbu ry , Planning Board.
Attention; Arthur Norton, Secretary.- This i8 dated
May 3rd..
.Sir, attached i8 the plan for preliminary
approval of Still Creek Inc. de.elopMent. The develop-
ment is located as you know west of Ridge Knolls Devel-
opment, one-half mile north of Farm to Market Road.
This 6.5 acres, approximateJ.y 30 acres haTe
been set aside for aceess to the creek on the southerly
side where in due time we plan to apply for a loa4ing
ramp from the Conservation Department for the use of
residents of Still Creek and Ridge KnOlls.-
On May 6th at approximately 7:00 p.m. Mr.
Roberts and Mr. Kushner visited the site with myself
23 and my son and we walked part of the 8i tee Mr.. Kush-
24
ner, now this is the first step the P1attning Board
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1 takes after preliminary approYal.
2
MR. KUSHNER: No, correction; after appli-
3 cation.
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MR. HOWLAlfD: Beg pardon"
MR. lUJSHNER: You said after" approvallt_
after application.
MR. HOWLAND: I all sorry. It was indicated
the technicality of the lack of name or dates.
There is no question they visited the site.
They were aware the plan was beiftg submitted.
Now, I will complete my notes if I .ay as
long as we are making a record here.
Mr. Kushner told us he was opposed to the
development on general principals and he would .ake a
t"~, case if he had to. I objected to his approach
expressing the view he had eTery right to try to get
the area rezoned and I haTe ev.~ right to keep the
areas zoned as it is. But Tery definitely he as a
member of the Town Board was in .-y opinion to pass
judgment Oft a plam from a legal point and froll his
viewing only; no special uses
or va~aDCes were
22 being asked for. The erea was zoned for exactly
23 what we planned to do. So my son and Mr. Roberts
24
said nothing. I would go through our entire proposal
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here biltt 1 t would be repeti t1ous.
2 I do want to say that I have a petition,
3 not a lengthy one, w1th 500 names on it of the 8ur-
4 round1ng property oWllers in the matter of the proposed
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subdivis10n plan by Still Creek Inc.; .......t
officially by Stein and Chambers.
M'fo whom 1 t may eoncern. We the under-
signed owners of the property of the Town of Queens-
bury, County of Warren, State of Ifew York, said propert
being located at tke address shown and all of the
property situated northerly of the Farm to Market
Hoad are familiar with an~ have seeft the proposed
subdivision plan to the Planning Board and have no
objection to the approval of Baid subdivision plan
an4 do hereby consent to the appro....l of sllch 4i..i110n
plan.M
For your information I have all but one of
the property owners that surround .., this encompaSBes
400 acres, and the one person I don't have ls a very
fine old lady, she was bedridden at the tiae. Sil1ee
21 then, I talked to her and she sald she w~4 be
22 delighted to sign. She is probably eightY-SOlie years
23 old.
24
MR. KUSHNER: I did l'lot use the word
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1 atest case" nor am I a member of the Town Boa~.
2
MR. WITHAM: Mr. Kushner, I am a little
3 unclear 1IfaS the map or a facsillile of that which you
4 now have before you presented to you people some t~e
5
in early May?
6
MR. KUSHlfEH: The map was, yes.
PUl. WITHAM: It has no date. You verifietl
it vas presented to you in early ~ay?
MR. KUSHNER: HInt., hil1l1ll.
MH. WITHAM: Thank you.
MR. HEI'IKE'.M': In the conyersation which
has just taken place, aince I requested a decision
by the Board, I suggest nothing that has been said
changes the remarks I have said.
Tbe only thing perhaps, it is your legal
authority to consider matters of ebology in aaking
Town decisions effecting zoning and planning. I have
and I w1ll hand to you a photostatic copy of a case
from the State Supreme Court, b.app Realty against
Ludwick 0 The Court held that Town authorities ahould
21 consider ecology in making decisions and once again I
22 request your denial for preliminary approval at this
23 tiae.
24
Pm. KUSHNER: I recopi ze the hand 1ti. the
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back.
2
MR. SHIRES: Are you going to make a decision
3 tonight?
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HR. KUSHBEB: We are up here, yes.
MR. SHIRES: lIaT we hear it.
MR. IUSHNEB: We wanted everyone to have
their say before we get to it.
MR. O'HANLOlh At the 1'01lll1 lleetil1g I con-
tradicted Mr. Howland. He ma6e a statement be wal
high and dry, good seTen to eight feet aooTe the level
of water and my .arl~ photographs shew that the water,
I-'-contradicted by saying the land was below the water.
I 8JIl gotng to contradict hi. again; not 150 feet and
eight feet, it's ere like 70 feet, more like 70 feet
and it'. ll1possible dttring the months of August and
September because of Tegetation and water lilies and
other vegetation that coapletely encompa.. the water
during those months.
Unless he used weed cutters aDd ehemieals
during those months and dredge on outboard motors he
21 could ..ver make a trip up there. I take my duck
22 board where he is deTeloping and I always Use 30 to
23 35 inches of line, that's in the center of the creek.
24
I say it's impossible, it's impossible with a aotor
40
during the months of August and September.
MR. HOWLAND: Just for the record. I haTe
been all of the way up to .y property in a 22-1'oot
criss craft in August of last yearo
MR. WITHAM: Sincerely, I am interested.
Is there any particular reasoR, in ~epresenting this
illustrious group and doing so with good lIorality,
you have not made a personal inspection partiCularly
in view of the broad encompassing reque.t you have
made tonight to see for yourse~^,'r
MR. HEMMET'1': I was interested in a.king a
visit and I spoke to Mr. Norton about the possibility
of visiting the property. He told me he had contacted
Mr. Howland about a visit and was asked to come on the
15th, is that right?
MR. HOWLAND: I said we would be back at the
development around the 15th.
MR. WITHAM: At the last meeting one month
ago approximatelYt Mr. Howland mentioned several times
very clearly with clarity that everyone in the room
lias invited to come.
Mr. Kushner, when you made your visitation
did you find any house in construction in progress
other than above water level?
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MR. KUSHNER: Well, it was because fill had
2 been brought in.
3
MR. WI~HAM: Fill to grade the sides or fill
4 to grade the lowest part of the foundation?
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MR. KUSHNER: I would say fill for the
foundation.
MR. LES~ER: I want to ask a couple of
questions in regard to Mr. Howland.
You admitted in the deed they do haTe
access to the Lake?
Mli 0 HOWLAND: Yes.
MR. LES'fER: Because the property goes up to
the creek?
MR. HOWLAND: I bought it because of the
Lake.
MR. LESTER: Did I understand going north
toward the Lake?
MR. HOWLAND: No, 110 going south.
I would be very happy to see the 'fown of
Queensbury limiting the creek to any motor not in
21 exoess of threetDrsepower. It was mentioned 1 _ It.
22 I dontt think every manufacturer would qualify. We
23 would support wholeheartedly maximum horsepower _
24
three horse.
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We expressed this for a long time for eon-
serystion reasons. We are just as interested in fish-
ing, eanoing, row boating as anybody.
MR. JOSEPH SCHJtlIDIGER: I am addressing Mr.
Howland.
The fact is you bought the property for the
express reason that all of the property would have
acoess to the lake?
MB. HOWLAND: That's correct; 2,000 feet of
frontage.
MR. JOSEPH SCHMIDIGE1l: Many times we haTe
heard it is all swamp. We all heard he actually got
his big boat in there.
Did you get your propellensfouled?
ME. HOWLAND: No.
Pm. JOSEPH SCHMIDIGER: What, what do you
expect to do; bring a boat in and out from the swamp?
I'm. HOWLAND: No, I just went to see what it
was like. I'd been up there itany times and I went up
there to see what it is like.
MR. JOSEPH SCHMIDIGEB: The people you are
selling to haTe access to the Lake?
MR. HOWLAND: Do you 11Te on the Lake, sir?
MHo SCHMIDIGER: Definitely.
ME. HOWLAND: I bought the property to bui Id
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homes and people living there could have access to the
Lake.
MR. SCHMIDIGER: You had to dredge before
MR. HOWLAND: We do not. No, you can't
dredge. The law prohibits. We have no intention of
doing that.
MR. JOSEPH SCHMIDIGER:
If the people you
are selling to should go through the swamp and weeds
MR. HOWLAND: If they choose, yes, sir. I
wasn't aware that's a crime.
HR. KUSHNER: The chair reoopizes this
gentleman.
MR. ADAMSON: Mr. Howland, may I ask you if
you put in X number of houses there, say fifty, and
there are fifty lot owners that want boats on the Lake,
how do you ..vision these fifty lot owners handling
their access to the creek?
MRQ HOWLAND: Trailer thea}down, put them
in and trailer them back out.
JIIR. ADAMSON: No w81 they can lea.,.e them in
over night?
MR. HOWLAND: No. sir.
MR. ADAMSON: Suppose they are fishing in
the lIom1ng and go home for lunch and want to eo.e
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back, what do they do?
VOICE: You got fifty boats.
MR. HOWLAND: If you had two or three
boats ---
VOICE: This l.at weekend?
MR. HOWLAND: Sir, it's not e~en worth
answering.
Jim. JOSEPH SCHMIDIGER: Sir, you said you
have fifty houses and you ha~e two or three boats, yet
you say you lfOuldn't haTe bought the place unless you
had aecess to the Lake?
MR. HOWLAND: That i8 correct.
MR. JOSEPH SCHMIDlGER: Vill you have at
least fifty boats, not three as you say?
MR. HOWLAND: All of us, if we had. aeeess
to the Lake, will have a boat.
MR. KUSHIER: We ba~e someone else.
SANDY COLLIER: The question was presented
at the meeting before last meeting ---
MHo HOWLAND: Two aeetings back.
SANDY COLLIER: You had the fifty boats ---
MR. HOWLAND: You said that.
SAlmY COLLIER: We take fifty boats, wtat
kind of boats are these going to be, are you going to
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45
have fifty canoes paddling up Lake George?
MR. HOWLAND: I wouldn't know.
SANDY COLLIER: It' IS very ideal to have
canoes but you can't have them with motor boats on
there.
You want this creek for access to Lake
George. Why, then?
MR. HOWLAN.Q: Block it off if you want, I
don't care.
SANDY COLLIER: You are going to destroy
part ot the Lake.
MR. HOWLAND: Do you boat on the Lake?
SODY COLLIER: No, most of these people
here do.
1m. HOWLAND: Do you urge they should be
stopped? Do you think they should be stopped?
SANDY COLLIER: Excuse me, I think that is
a Tery good idea. If the boats cou14 be li1li ted on
Lake George I think it would help pollution; like
Henry Diamond 88id a month ago, he said Lake George is
not polluted.
MR. HOVLAND: He drank the water - big deal.
SANDY COLLIER: I don't believe this.
MR. HOWLAND: I live on the Lake and we boil
46
all of the water.
SANDY COLLIER: I think it i II a good idea
for the boats to be limited - not more to be put on;
which we are asking yau, not to put more houses Oll this
MR. HOWLAND: I am very sorrr. Well you
aisht say the same things to these people.
SANDY COLLIER: I think they should.n' t have
more on the Lake.
MR. HOWLAND: If you clon't live here, you
can't put your boat on there; and I ea't put 111 beat
on Lake Champlain. I am sorry JIIi ss, 10U have got to
mature your thinking.
RERE CHAPIUS: You mentioned 1 - Ii horse-
power.
Are you incorporating that in your deed?
Are you including in your deed sOlle limit?
KB. HOWLAND: We would be in fa.or of
Queensbttrr Town ordinance limiting the horsepower not
in excess of three or t_ and a half.
MR. HElIE CHAPIUS: Don' t you think you could.
limit tln two har..power", in your deed?
MR. HOWLAND: I can It control the water
any place.
MR. BENE CHAPIUS: I want to disagree with
47
you and I render I went up that creek last year in my
i!lboard outboard, I burned up my motor 'because the
whole thi~ got clogged up wi tb weeds. I didr1't get
near your property 0 On the way back I hi t IIY prop,.
MR. KVSHNEB: The hour is getting late. I
all goin.g to reco!J1ize anyone no has not had the
opportunity and then the Board will take action.
MR. STEWART: Our department in very
preliminary testing in Dunham's Bay has found that
you can expect the percentage of phosphate levels to
be ten times higher. Now, there is no way to tell
how much of this bottom mud is gOing to be stirred
up or how much is going to 'be released in Dunham's
Bar. I think 8Jl;rbody who owns a boat on the Lake i.
quite aware of what you can do when you hit shallow
water. Regardless of that, the quality of the water
will change. 'rhere is no way you can release into the
Bay without adding to the Bay itself.
So, unless you keep the power boats off the
creek entirely, because Mr. Howland, this isn't within
your legal right, if the Town of Queensbury is 0011-
pletely willing to put half horsepower limit on this
creek, there Will be no probl... Unless that is done,
Mr. Howland's property 1s available for anyone with any
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48
boat to get up there. Dunhaa's Bay will suffer, there
is no two ways about that.
(Audience claps.)
MR. HOWLAND: May I uk 8. question?
You said percentage of phosphates there?
MR. STEWART: That's right.
MR. HOWLAND: Did YGU test?
MR.. STEWART: Yes, we began a series of
tests up in Dunham's Bay on the roek aDd mud that are
in the marsh lands.
PIR. HOWLAND: You 88Y .we., who is .we.?
MR. STEWART: I am talking of i1'14iY1dua18
with the Lake George Research Center of the State
University of New York.
(Audience claps.)
PII. COUTANT: I believe the record should be
accurate, I bel_e 1t is Doctor Stewart.
MR. HOWLAND: I agree this 1s a serious
problem.
Isntt it true that tests haye been made,
sUMe,.. ha'Ye been Rlade that cost up to a million
dollars and haye 11'141 cated 86- per cent of phosphates
are coming Gut of sewer syst_s iu Lake George because
they haven't been willing to p.t the third bays 11'1.
49
DB. S'fEWART: Let's be careful what you are
saying in front of these people. Let us be careful
what you are putting on the record.
You are putting together 8e~eral numbers that
do not cOIae froll the same .ource to come up with that
figure. I will be aelighted to sit down with you and
show you.
Further lIore, you will see information
within the next six week period come out from a State
agency showing that is not so.
MR. HOWLAND: I would be interested to see.
ME.. KUSHNER: Anyone 11'1 shing to speak.
Mr. 1fl'tham,I ammt recognizing you.
MR. WITHAM: You have recognized me.
MR. KUSHNER: This gentleman .i th his hand
up.
PAUL BRANDT: I would like to ask the Board
a couple of questions.
One thing came up earlier was that if the
Planning Board did not make a recommendation within a
45-day period it was autoeatlc. I would like to hear
the Towa Counsel's opinion on that.
The second thing I would llke to know, bow
yo. people base your appro~al or disapproTal. I aSSUMe
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.50
it haa to be according to present laws as they are
written or could you integrate a stop gap?
MR. KUSHNER: The Planning Board cannot
enact a stop gap zoning 80 we haye no authority to
enact a stop gap.
~s far 8J your other question which was
addressed to Mr. Katz, would you care to reply, Mr.
Katz?
MR. KA'fZ: Mr. Chairman, let me preface .y
answer this way.
As counsel for the'~o1m Board and directly
and indirectly to the variou~administ2atiYe boards
including your J'18l1ning hard., I 8IIl charged to render
certain legal opinions. Because of this, I have not
visited the site. I don't want to be Motivated by my
own personal likes or dislikes. I am motivated solely
by what the statute says. I am 80lely conceraed with
reco_ending to your Board and any other board the
application of the laws as we find them.
In this particular instance we have three
distinct and separate laws to apply. We haye State
statutes t part! eularly Art! ole 16 of the Town law t
which happens to be about zoning and planning. We
have the Town. zoning ordins,uce of the Town of Quee118-
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51
bury and we have the subdivision regulating ordinance
of the TOD of Queens~.
These three set. of law must be all applied
because as the State statute says and I ~uote in Sec-
tion 269, .Whenever the provisions of any other statute
or local ordinance or regulation imposes other higher
standards th~ are required by regulation aade under
the authority of this article,. Section 269 Article 16,
.the provisions of such a statute or local ordiaance
or regulation governs in vi...of the statute of the
Stat.o. We must then refer back to the subdivision
ordinance and zoning ordinance. There is no provision
in either subdivision ordinanQe or zoning ordinance
for .preliminary approval. sinee this is the higher
standard, we Blust apply this standard.
Therefore, this Board has within its province
the right to accept or reject the plan without render-
ing any preliminary approval and since it has this
right my interpretation of this section of the law is
that they are allowed to refer to the Town law that
does not apply a provision for preliminary approval.
My entire province is to interpret the law
for the Town Board and other administrative agencies.
I interpret with the best of -1 kftowledge based on
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52
the facts, based on the statutes involved and based on
the expertise of various State Attorneys who deal with
these subjects daily. It is my opinion that the Town
zoning ordinance and the Town ordinance regulating
subdivision sites, zoning and planning prece~es the
State's statutes and as such it is within the province
of the Board to render a decision either accepting or
rejecting this proposal as made by Mr. Howland.
MR. HOWLAND: That's why we have counsel.
We have learned judges. That's why....e have a number
of attorneys and for this reason I don't know if this
answers your question.
MR. BRANDT: Then in substance I don't think
the 45-day rule applies in this instance. I believe
the Planning Board can render an opinion wi thout any
violation of any statute.
MR. KUSHNER: Does that answer your question?
MR. BIlAND'!' : You did not answer my question
as to how you base your judgment according to the law.
Mli. KUSHNER: We certainly have to werk with-
in the framework of existing laws.
MR. KATZ: Mr. Brandt, I thought I pointed
out that my recommendations and decisions on legal
opinions are based 801ely upon the existing laws. I
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1 am not concerned with may happen ten year. from now or
2 even ten days from now with respect to the law.
3
Jl!R. BRANDT: I was talking about the
4 Planning ~oard's decision.
5
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MR. KATZ: Pardon.
l'fR. BRANDT: I was talking about the
Planning Boa~ts decision.
MR. KATZ: I think the Planning Board 1s
bound by the Salle statutes which I recited before.
MR. HOWLAND: Mr. Katz, aa you said to ae
several times, nothing personal ---
MR. KATZ: Either way.
D. HOWLAND: I:i ther way - you told lie that
you would document your opinion, 10U told me that
about three weeks agoo
Can you 40euaent that now or will you docu-
aent tbat in the immediate future?
Pm. KATZ: I absolutely will.
MR. HOWLAND: Thank you, 8i r.
MR. KUSHNER: .Anyone else care to comment?
21 (No response.)
22 Hearing nothing, gentle.en, we are going to
23 render an opinion on this applicatiGn.
24
I cite as our first authority, Town Law
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'---- 24
54
No.5; .Ordilla1\ce Regulating the Development of Sub-
divisions in the Town of Queensbury.-
I would also cite from the Zoning Ordinance
of the Town of Queensbury, Section 1.200 which is
General Intent. -The intent of this ordinance is to
establish comprehensive controls for the development
of land in the Town of Queensbury, based on the Master
Plan for the Town and enacted in order to promote and
protect health, safety, comfort, convenience and
general welfare of the people..
MR. HOWLAND: What section is that, sir?
MR. KUSHNER: This is section 1.200.
I will also cite Section 1.300, Purposeo
-Such regulations shall be mai e in accordance with the
Master Plan and deslgn~ to lessen congestion in the
streets, to secure safety from fires, flood, panic and
other dangers; to promote health and general welfare;
to provide adequate light and air; to prevent over-
crowding of land; to 8'Vo1.d undue concentration of the
public, to facilitate the provisions of tran.sportation,
water, sew~<<e, sehool., parks and other public require-
meats. Such retulations shall be made with reasonable
consideration, among other things. to the character-
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55
1sties of the district and the requirements of the
particular uses and with a .iew to conserving the
value of bu1l.dings aU "encouraging the most appropriate
use of land throughOut I; the Tolll'l.-
I also to wish to cite Section 6.902 which
I shall find here.
First I will eite Seetion 6.901 which
regards Site Plan Specifications. -Application for
multiple dwellings and planned residential groups
shall require the submission of a site development
plan to the appropriate Board, said Plan or Plans as
submitted to either the Planning Board or the Board of
Appeals are required to show all structures, roadways,
pathwalks, parking areas, recreation areas, utility and
exterior lighting installations and landscaping on the
site, all existing structures and usages within 200 feet
of the site boundaries, and any other elements a8 .ay
be deemed essential by the Planning Board or the Board.
of Appeals.-
Section 6l'02 regarding Planning Board;
Board of Appeals Approval. -Every site plan ~bmitt~d
to the Planning Board (as a permitted use) and to the
Board of Appeals with referral to the Planning Board
(special exception Use) in accordance with the require-
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ments of this ordinance shall contain such information
2 and be in such form as either Board may prescribe in
10
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20
3 its rules. ApproTal shall not be granted until the
4 site plan has been approved by the ~ow.n En<<ineer and
5
Health Officer concerning the adequacy of the proposed
6
fa.,ilities for fire protection, storm drainage waters,
7
water supply, and sewsge facilities. Approval of the
site plan hereunder by either the Planning Board or
8
9
Board of Appeals shall expire one year after the date
thereof, if building peraits have not been obtained for
construction in accordance therein.-
Also, as Mr. Katz has stated within the
structuring of our T01ft1 ordiMnCe, there 1s no right,
specific right to preliainary approval.
I am going to ask for a motion from this
Board based on concern primarily for potential ecolog-
ical damage to the wetlands and possibly the Lake George
area. in total.
Also because there is a question of pOSSible
ownership and/or jurisdiction of control over the
21 adjacent wetland area.tha~ we reject this application.
22 I would accept such a motion.
23
24
MR. RICHARD ROBEBTS: I 'WOuld so move.
MR. KUSHNER: So moved.
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57
Is there a second?
~R. SINNOTT: I will second.
MR. KUSHNER: Any further discussion?
All in favor of the motion signify in the
usual manner.
JOHN SINNOTT: I.yeo
ROBERT KIRKPATRICK: Aye.
GILBERT MELLON: Ayeo
RICHARD ROBERTS: Aye.
J. ARTHUR NORTON: Aye.
MR. KUSHlfEB: Opposed?
(No response.)
MR. KUSHMER: Motion i8 carried. We haye
rejected this application.
(Audience claps.)
MR. HOWLAND: Play I ask a question?
MR. KUSHNER: Certainly.
MR. HOWLAND: Your motion referred to
ecological conditions.
Do you consider, sir, that the members of
this Board are qualified to pass judgment on this?
MR. KUSHNER: No, but we have surficient
evidence submitted by people who are authorities that
we reel their opinions beared weight.
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Folks, if you have any conversation, we
2 would appreciate your doing it in the hall so we may
3 continue with our business. You are welcome to stay
4 and hear the rest of' the meeting.
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VOICE: Could you announce the agenda
quickly. They are afraid people are going to leave
who aren't going to hear.
MHo KUSHNER: Yes, we ha"e a special permit
by Clifford B. Witham as the first point on the agenda
and we have several variances applications before us
this evening.
MR. HOWLM D: Could you haTe that motion so
I could see it in writing1
MR. NORTON: George, couldn't you get that
later.
MHo HOWLAND: Without getting into every
word, can you review that motion?
MHo KUSHNER: I would ratber have it when
she gets it typed and we will be glad to present it to
you.
MR. HOWLAND: I rather YOll answer it now
22 because we are obviously !ping to get involved in a
23 legal action.
24
MR. KUSHNER: You asked a question and I
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refused your request.
lIB. HOWLAND: I would like to haTe the
secretary read back the motiono
MR. KUSHNER: Is it possible to do so
easily or not?
THE REPORTER: It will take a few minutes.
MR. KUSHNER: We haTe a great deal of bust.
ness this evening.
MR. HOWLAND: George, I am entitled to get
on the record a very simple question.
MRo KUSHNER: Well, ask your question.
PIll 0 HOWLAND: I haTe as ked you to let me
hear the resolution, you have just made a resolution,
you must know what it i8.
MR. KUSHNER: You want1itt back ___~.r and
we want to give it back to you ~~~ and that is
why you have to get it off the recordo
MR. HOWLAND: Well, I believe it should be
delayed until this young lady reads it back.
MR. KUSHNER: I f you want to get tha t from
the record, if you like to wait around until we finish
our other business, we will be happy to do that.
JUl. HOWLAND: Mr. Kushner, you are very Dluch
out of order. I am entitled to hear that resolution
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and to al'lswer it. You are ."err much out of order,
sir.
(Mr. Howland leaves the meeting.)
:MR. KUSHNER: Our nttxt piece of business on
the agenda i$ Special Permit 32, Clifford B. Witham.
Art, will you give us that information.
PlR. IlORTON: Yes.
PlR. KUSHNER: I hope you people don't mind
if we drink our cokes up here?
AUDIENCE: '0, no.
MR. KUSHNER: May I ask another question,
would you object if we all took our coats off?
AUDIENCE: Mo.
MR. NORTON: Special Permit 32; Clifford B.
Witham, Applicant. This is for the provision of the
ordiBanee inTol."ed in now zone R3 with permi tted
special allowing use of marina. The special use
in."olved is marina (used boats and merchandise) we
do not want a full scale marina in the sense of
Hkr~ Bay; only on a small scale basis.
The applicant is Clifford B. WithaD'l, Diamond
Point, Mew York; owner is Della G. Witham, Glens Falls,
Itew York.
Description and location of the lot 1s 800
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feet on Lake George and 800 feet both sides of Route 9L
southerly to (Jill 111 1-4' Bridge; approximately :3 ,000 feet;
present zoning classification of the lot and iaprove-
sent thereon and use thereof is Ii3 with dri'Yewa)" anti
construction shed. Description of improvement or
changes intended to be made; a dock, six feet wide and
40 feet out (State dock) from shore with one boat slip
on each side with 20 feet inside width, physical
refurbishing and aesthetic refurbishing of construction
shed with final use of same for tool closet and real
estate office; driveway to be ~raded to wldth of 50
feet to shore line of 85 feet to accolllBOdat. parking
for approximately six autos; landscaping, flowe~bed,
trill1Ding this.
MR. KUSHNER: Anyone here to speak in this
application?
MR. WITHAM; Thank you.
This thiD<< got a little heated tonight,
myself included. It is part of the give and take of
our Aaeriean system. We are Bot all going to qree on
Iluy things here but all of us are better ci ti zens .
1'hen there are those who are sitting hoae doing nothing
or expressing opinions oyer a martini in a saloon. We
are the ones who are here and that' s what counts. We
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are living America here tonight.
Wow I offered this property as agent for
Della Witham to the .ature Conservancy approximately
four months ago. We have waited four months and. we
have waited this time with a great deal of family
sacrifice. We don't expect any benefit for it at
this time. We withdraw our offer to the Nature Con-
servatory 0 We wai t-ed for them what we feel an undue
amount of time. ~r we see aanifestation on their part
and I think we will tewards progress our opinion could
ohange due to other changing circumstances beyon. our
control inclusive, if .t, presenting four additional
facts of inforaation requested by the Town Board. I
haTe no choice except to defer our application until
the next meeting.
Thank you.
Pm. KUSHNER: You are postponing?
MR. WITHAM: Yes.
MB. KUSHNER: Well, postponed until the
next hearing.
MR. AP:roLLO: Mr. ChaiNU, we came up here
for a heari~ and now we hear it is being postponed
ahead of time. I don't like to come all of the way
from Albany.
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Will he go on next time?
Pm. KUSHNER: There will be legal notice in
the paper' when it comes to the Zoning Board not the
Planning Board.
MR. APPOLLO: As far as the Planning Board
is concerned he could withdraw it?
MR . KUSHNER : Yes.
MR. HEMMET'l': For the record, 8Y under-
standing is that this is as you pointed out basically
a Zoning Board matter that il here for the Planning
Board recommendation.
The appellant has requested a postponement
at this time. There are people here as just has been
indicated. have come some distanoe and who have come to
make remarks; perhaps you could reeeiTe the remarks
tonight for your consideration even though the appel~t
has postponed bis application.
MB. WITHAM: I 8JIl not prone in any vay to
try to stifle any commentary all th~s application when
the application is presented in its final form with
the additional information t1IlIIIt we would be more desir-
QUS of at this time. Without the application being
completed, I feel and unasked for by myself my attorney
advised and he may not be correct, that advanced
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commentary on an incomplete application would be some-
2 what arbi trary and could be construed as prejudicial
3 to your Board when they had all of the informat ion
4 relevant to the application they were desirous of.
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MB. KUSHNER: Mr. Witham's point is well
taken.
Harold, could anyone cOlUlent on an appliea-
tion that 1s not in its completed form. This would be
questionable testimony.
MR. HEMMETT: It i8 our understanding that
the application as it haa been read 1s not the appli-
cation in its final form.
Okay, I will yield to your point.
MR. KUSHNER: If we have further people
deserting, they may now leave. We hope you 1'1111 eome
more often.
Gentlemen, we now have under old business,
variance naber 237, Carlos Restaurant. Bather than
read the whole application which has come before us
at the last meeting we reeouen.d to the Zoning Board
21 that their request be approved. There was some ques-
22 tion about their compliance to a previous variance
23 that has been granted; that i8 why it h.. been returned.
24 to us.
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------
65
Anyone to speak on behalf of Carlos this
evening?
(No response.)
Hearing no response, I will accept a motion .
MR. NORTON: I make the motion we recom.end
approval of this application if the provision of the
previous 'Yarianee application 150 has been complied
with.
MHo KUSHNER: Anyone second the motion?
MHo KIHKPA'l'BICK: I seco1'1Cl.
MR. KUSHNER: J,:ny further discussion?
(No response.)
All in favor signify in the usual manner.
HR. .TOD SINNO'r'r: Aye.
MR. ROBEJIll' KIRKPATRICK: Aye.
MR. GILBERT MELLON: Aye.
MR. RICHARD ROBERTS: Aye.
MR 0 J. ARTHUR KOBTOR: Aye.
MR. KUSHNER: Opposed?
(No response.)
MR. KUSHIiER:Motion is carried.
Variance NUJlber 242, Holly Bowen, Lake
George Road.
Mr. Norton, gl'Ye us the particulars in this
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1 application, please.
2
KR. NORTON: Application to install a free-
3 standing sign' ten feet back of the property line in
4 lieu of 50 feet requirement.
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Eo KUSHNER: Anyone to speak on this
application?
(No response.)
MR. KUSHNER: Hearing none, do I hear a
motion for this application?
MR. KIRKPAlfIlTCK: I move approval of 30 feet
setback rather than ten.
MR. KUSHNER.: You are recommending approval
of 30 feet .etback?
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Yes.
MR. KUSHNER: Anyone second?
MR. SINNOTT: I will second.
MR. KUSHNER: Any further discussion?
( No response.)
MR. KUSHNER: All 1m. favor signify in the
usual manner.
MR. SINNOTT: Ayeo
MR. ROBERT I.IRKPATBICK: Aye.
MB. GILBEM' MELLON: Aye.
MR. RICHARD ROBERTS: Aye 0
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67
J. ARTHUR NOR'l'ON: Aye.
MR. KUSHNER: Any opposed?
(No response.)
MR. KUSHNER: Carried.
Variance nuaber 24). I know I will get this
name bad. George, are you here? It's his application.
MR. NORTON: Jotake Sale.
VOICE: (Not identified.) That's it.
llIR. NORTON: Plake Sale; 'Variance from rear
line restriction allowing petitioner to construct a
seasonal summer cottage on Dunham's Bay, Lake George.
The cottage to be built 18.5 from the rear line
(Lake sho~e) and 5.0 from eitper side.
MR. KUSHNER: I think the main question we
had in this was an 18i foot setback and we are won4er-
&I<< why you can not comply wi th the )0 foot setback
requirement.
VOICE: The present drain field tor the
sewage system is located betwean my present cottage
which I intend to reconstruct which is on the same
21 site I intend to build on and a driveway up to the
22 back. The driveway is on bedrock; I couldn't con-
23 struct there. It's the only area left for the drain
24
field which properly would be set back sufficiently
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68
far from the Lake to be in aocordance with your regula-
tions. Concerning the sewage and. drain field this is
really the only area I can build.
MR. KUSHNER: Does that satisfy you, gentle-
men? Any questions?
VOICE: There is a copy of the survey
attached to the plans and I submit it to you. The
sewage drain field lies between the driveway on that
map and rear of the existing cottage and in this area,
as I say, I have sufficient seticcond1 tions to enable
me to put 1n a decent drain field. The remainder of
the lot is complete bedrock.
MR. KIHKPA'l'RICK: You already have one home
on it?
VOICE: Yes. I intend to build on the saae
site where my present cottage exists.
MB.KIRXPA'l'BICK: One cottage, teari~ one
down and reconstructing a new one?
VOICE: Yes.
I am told my predecessor was an owner of a
toy store and he used this '8 great deal and this 1s
one of the reasons why I want to reconstruct.
Secondly. my fam11y has enlarged and as a result I
need more room and an ad4ition to the cottage is just
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69
uncomfortable. So I 8.1Il asking thi s Board and the
Zoning Board to reconstruct. ~he lot as you can see
is a very narrow one and has existed in both dimensions
for 30 years to my knowlecige, It has not been caned
up by myself or any predecessor.
This is the situation I am faced with. I
think you gentlemen will agree it's a hardship.
MR. KUSHNER: Gentlemen, do you have any
questions?
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Are you going to live in
your present cottage while you are reconstructing?
VOICE: No, sir.
tIy present cottage is collina; down right
after Labor Day and I vill be reconstructing next
spring. One cottage at anyone given tille.
MR. KUSHNER: I will accept a s.tioD. on
this application.
MR. NORTON: I Blake a motion that we
reco1llllend approval upon this because of hardship.
MR. KUSHNER: Anyone second?
PIR. SIlOiOT'f: I will second.
PIR. KUSHNER: Any further discussion?
(No response 0 )
MR. KUSHIER: All in favor signify in the
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usual MDner.
MR. SINNO~Tt Aye.
ROBERT KIRKPATRICK: Aye.
G ILBER'l' MELLON: At,.
RICHARD ROBlm'rS: Aye.
J. ARTHUR NORTON: Aye.
MR. KUSINER: Opposed?
(No response.)
MR. KUSHlfER: Carried.
Variance nuber 244, G. R. SUZ& & Sons.
MR. IfOBi'ON: Application to place free-
standing sign less than the required 50 feet setback
for property at the corner of Aviation Road and Dixon
Road; owne4 by Henry Slate.
Q; "KUSHNER: Anyone to spe,ak on this app11-
catioll?
ERIC LUTHER: The reason for the request for
a free-standing price stga i8 because or the extending
circumstance of the size of the loto Aetually, I
believe to have the price sign 50 reet from the public
right of 1Iay edge of the property real~Y because of the
way our property is set up at this location it would be
impossi ble. It is a ktad of .........shaped area. .
What I am requesting is so.. agreeable posi-
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71
tion to put our price sign in. Now we have just
taken that particular location over for a distributor
of an oil corporation. We have been in Hew York State
for less than a year now. It is our attempt to create
a better location for the community and realize that
probably the past appearance of that service station
has not been favorable. The one way to make it fa"for-
able is to make it profitable. If we can have a price
sign where the public can see it, we can llake it profi
able. It is not our intention to have this business
conducted as it has been in the past. We fully agree
with you that the unsightliness of junk tires doesn't
belong in the community. This is the one thing we
fully intend to comply with and deaand out of anybody
we have at the station. One way of avoidiDg this is
to be able to sell our product and one way we can .ell
is by being allowed to post the price so that it can
be seen from either direction on the road.
MR. KUSHNER: Of course, you are aware of
nOliconforming use in that zone and it's lIlY' opinion
additional variances make this more nonconforming.
I personally question the appropriateness of encourag-
ing the perpetuation of nonoonforming use.
MR. LUTHER: I can understand that.
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One thing that I would appreciate your
considering is the fact that we have been unable at
this t1lle to put a priee sip anyldlere. W. eyen tried
to put it in the second day and the sheriff calle around.
and said it was too elose. We put it in tbe middle
bay so it wouldn't be too close to the road. If we
can't have it out so the public ean see it we ean hard-
ly conduct business. Oue of the ways we attempt to do
business i8 by the pricing of our gasoline. Pricing
is our life blood.
Certainly. we could get another dealer to
go in there. He wouldn't be able to live on ga=-oline
or anything else that would be more clean. He would
have to derive his income out of the bays which would
not be favorable from our position or yours. It would
create a great deal of unsightliness as has been in
the past. Surely, you realize that.
One other thing too. This land is owned
Qy Mr. Slate and since we haye come into this area
we attempted to get Mr. Slate's approval on modern-
izing the building. In faet, we asked him if we
could just paint it. We would be willing to paint
that whole complex if we could paint our building
along with it. We are interested in presenting a
73
better image and a price sign does pose a pro_lem for
us.
~B. KIRKPATRICK: Is your business just
pumping gas,selling oil?
MR. LUTHER: Yes.
We are also a Goodyear distributor. At
this particular outlet our main theme is gasoline.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: No repair?
MR. LUTHER: I WGuld say strictly limited.
If a local resident might have a problem, sOllething
that would be very slight. Right now, we are con-
ducting no repair there. ~be moat extensive repair
we wou14 do would maybe to do an oil changeo Cer-
tainly with an oil change there are no tires sitting
aroUD4.
MR. KUSHNER: Gentlemen, we have been dis-
cussing here and there is no question that that site
has been an eyesore in the past. There is a possibilit
it could become a worse eyesore.
Mr. Norton made a suggestion that we might
want to consider recommending approval not necessarily
in that location but apptto'Val of the sign based on
modernizing the building, improving the appearance of
the building so we could upgrade that area.
'-----r-----
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MR. LUTHER: The lease, if we could get out
2 of it under the circumstances we might consider that.
13 Now, he has us held. We would like to, I think it is
4 a very good location, it's a beautiful residential
area, we would like to have a go at it. If there is
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any recommendations you can give us that you would
like to see us do in the area of modernization, we
would sincerely appreciate it.
MR. KUSHNER: We think it is probably more
your responsibility to come and tell us what you are
going to do; although you might wisb to meet with the
Town Beautification Commission who I know is very
inte~ested in this sort of thing and very glad to
work with you.
Does it still seem more appropriate if a
sign or price was permitted that it be placed on the
island rather than quite so far out to the point?
Do you gentlemen have any comments?
MR. SINNOTT: I am not easily moved by it.
I still feel it is nonconforming and yet I hate to
see people go out of business. On the other hand,
business is taportant to our community.
Why won't Slate allow you to make that
premises into an exceptionally "autif~l gasoline
r----
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75
station?
MR. LUTHER: He has written into our lease
we can't change the exterior.
JttR. SINNOTT: Weren' t you and your eell-
panions giddy in signing a lease like that?
MR. LUTHER: When we moved to New York State
we assumed a lease-holding system with the oil cor.
poration. Now some of them were h~ghly favorable and
others were less such as this one. We had to assume
them all. It wasn't a piece Ileal proposition. We ar.
bound by whatever agreements they had so we would like
to make the best of it. Certainly, it hasn't been made
the best of in the past and it would be our intention
to do so; that it is in the lease. I would imagine
the reason he did that was so that the station would
conform to the rest of the plaza area that he has
there, but we would
MR. SINNOTT: Excuse my laughter.
MR. LUTHER: (Continuing) We ha'Ye gone so
far as to offer to repaint his entire area if he
allowed us to do that; but I think the problem is
assessment may go up.
The modernization that we put up in all of
our stations and I'll hang my hat, ninety-nine per
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76
cent of the stations we have, ninety-nine per cent
we have a mansti 'Ye type of effect wi th a big front
even a lease of this type, say 57 years as we do in
th1s case. we put an iU'Yestaent in and ad'Yertise it
off.
MR. KUSHNER: You can't do it here.
MR. LUTHER: No, we are 11mi tea. here.
MR. KUSHNER: Here your problem is not wi th
the Planning Board or the Zoning Board and you are not
going to resolve 1t by disous.ing it with us but with
Mr. Slate.
MR. LUTHER: Certainly, by hav1~ a price
sign we could make some business at least and be a
better representative of the community and in time we
hope to ehange Mr. Slate's mind - we are trying that
right now.
MHo HOR'rON: Could you paint your station
without that being a change to the structure so to
speak?
MR. LUTHER: We have painted the inside.
MR. lfORTOH: Would painting the exterio r
effect your lease?
D. LUTHER: Yes, it would. We have a
written lea8e. I haTe already painted the inside;
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we are going to do as much to the outsid.e as we
possibly can and still be in compliance with his
lease. We are also trytng to make an agreement with
him to appro,.e it 0
Of course, if we spend a lot ot money and
i.proTe the place, since" can't adTertise the fact
we have gasoline, certainly the investment would not
be a wise one. Bight now it's marginal at best, it's
marginal right now, it will always be aarginal unless
we are able to compete in a very eo.petitiTe manner.
It doesn't have to be marginal because the location
does have excellent business opportunities and we
researched it and belieTe there 1s business opportunity
there. But it depends a little bit on what you allow
us to do 8l1d to a great extent on the cooperation we
get out of Mr. Slate.
MHo KUSHNER: I would like a motion on this.
MR. SINNOft: I make a motion we reject this
application as nonconforming to our regulations.
MR. KUSHNER: Any second?
M. KIRKPATRICK: I .econd.
MR. KUSHNER: Any discussion?
(No response. )
MR. KUSHNER: All in favor signify in the
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78
usual manner.
JOHN SINNOTT: Aye.
~
GILBERT MELLOW: Aye.
RI CHARD ROBERTS: Aye.
J. ARTHUR ROJrrON: Aye.
JIIR. KUSHNEB: Opposed?
MR. KIBKPA'l'RICK: Aye.
lI!R. KUSHNER: Motion is carried.
Varianoe number 245, Louise Kittredge.
MR. NORTON: Convert garage storage building
into temporary summer use for one person, myself; lot
90 x 150 feet, H1 zone, has summer cottage and garage
storage bui1dingo
MR. KUSHNER: We have SOIleOhe here to speak?
MRS. KI'l'TBEDGE: Yes.
Are there any questions I could ans.er?
MR. KUSHNER: Do 10u gentlenlen haTe an1
questions?
MR. KIRJ(PATBICK: Wouldn't it be just as
well to put an addition in 1o\lr present cottage?
MRS. KITTREDGE: We were told not to, the
contractor told me this house was built in 1916 that
it is 55 years old. It is not advisable to haTe a
wing construction - that the difference in ages would
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79
be unwise to attach the new to the old.
He thought it
advisable to do this and for my own person it is better
to haye a separate building.
The purpose of the building is expressed in
that statement there; partly a garage, partly a storage
building. I have recently .ove4 from my home in Mary-
land. The express need was to get located, the express
need is expressed in that memo there. The exprea8
need was to make quarters for ae. At the time my
family was using the cottage, my daughter is married
and has children and it is rather complicated for
several generations to occupy ane building at one time.
M. KUSHNER: Although the members of the
Board are well aware the t in the past it has been
common practice in Lake George to utilize facilities
in this manner, two principal dwellings on one lot.
Reoently another area of the Town had. a
similar application and it certainly is in contradic-
tion to our Zoning ordi...ee.
We reeo.-end as Mr. Kirkpatrick suggested
an addition to the existing dwelling rather than an
additional dwellingo
Do you gentlemen have any further C1ue.tl<mf
(No response.)
80
KR. KUSHNER: Hearing none. I lfOult! aocept
a lIotion.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I believe we will reject
the application. because of two dwellings on one lot.
MR. KUSHNER: As you are probably aware
this is only a recommendation to the Zoning Board.
Who will second?
MR. HORTON: I will second.
MR. KUSHNER: An.,- further discussion?
(No response.)
MR. KUSHNER: All in favor signify in the
u.sual lIe,tUler.
JOHN SINNOTT: Aye.
ROBERT KIRKPATRICK: A1e.
GILBERT MELLON: AYe.
J. ARTHUR NORTON: Aye.
MR. KUSHNER: Opposed?
RI CHARD ROBERTS: Aye.
PIB. KUSHNER: The motion is carried.
Variance number 246. Charles Coffin.
MR. NORTON: From three horses to eight
horses for winter months back to three for summer
months. This is on a two and a half acre lot on the
Farm to Market Road. They desire to add to an already
81
existing building frame construction to enlarge an
IS foot by 15 foot building; IS x 26 feet addition
of same eonstt"Uction.
lm. KUSHNEH: Any questions on that?
VOICE: (Not identified) The building I
want to enlarge is a lean-to type building, called a
half building. The roof goes Ii ke thi s and I waJlt to
extend the roof. I do rent a pasture where the horses
have been for the last two winters. I would like to
have them where it would be ea.1 to get into and take
care of th.. myself.
MD.. KUSHNER: Any questions gentlemen?
(No response.)
MR. KUSHNER: The Planning Board has
reviewed this and has two concerns; the reaction of
neighbors and secondly possible future change in the
character of the area. I believe we do have a motion
but it will be taking these factors into account.
VOl CE: Can I answer that?
As far as neighbors go, across the road
they have horses and oat'le.:'onehouse down the road
has horses and cattle that surrounds us on three
. sides. I don't believe we would be out of character
in the neighborhood.
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1
MR. KUSHNER: Motion?
2
MR. :MELLON: I would recommend we approve
3 the variance if the neighbors are considered and the
4 character of the land remains the same.
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MR. KUSHNER: You are recommending a time
6
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7
MR. MELLON: Yes.
8
MR. KUSHNER: We are reeolUllending a time
9
limit on the application so that it would be recon-
10
sidered periodically.
11
Who will second?
12
MR. SINNOTT: I will second the matioR.
13
MR. KUSHNER: All in favDr?
14
JOHN SINNOft: Aye.
15
ROBERT KIHKPATlU ex: Aye.
GILBERT MELLON: Aye.
16
17
HI CHARD ROBERTS: Aye.
J. ARTHUR NORTON: Aye.
MR. KUSHNER : Opposed?
(No response.)
18
19
20
21
MR. KUSH:NEB: Carried.
22 Any further business to come before the
23 Board this evening?
24 (No response.)
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83
ME. KUSHNER: Hearing none, I a.ccept a
motion for adjournMent?
MR. NORTON: Iou haye your magical motion.
MR. KUSHNER: The meeting is adjournedo
(Whereupon, the hearing was adjourned
at 11:10 p.m. o'clock.)
IHE
AKE
GE
ORGE
ASSOCIATION
PROTECTING THE;: LAKE SiNCE ,eS!5
LAKE GEORGE. N.Y, 12845
--
July 1, 1972
~r. George Kushner
TOVITI of Queensbury Plar~ing Board
Queensbury Town Office
Bay Road
Queensbury, ~ew Yo~k
Dear l.'ir. l~usimer:
lI'lr. :2l1iott Davrcon re18yed your re.' ',; 231; ior ::-1 ',lri tten
statesent frc~ the Lake George A23oci~tic _ ;iving the
reasons why the Dunham, ~arris, Warner Eay wetlands
sho~ld be pro~ected and preserved in their natural
state. ~his letter is, I hope, responsive to that
request.
'-
T~e Lake 2eor~~ ~ss0ci~-~~n is opposed to realty
devclcD~e~ts ~~ thsse ~2~lands because we are con-
cer:~ed l;":' -:~l t!:e vi ~al i::--:,:'ortEnce of saving the:~~.. frorn
destruction. ~e are convinced that the Still Creek
Inc. tV~ge of developmerr: ::lust lead to quick and ir-
repara'.Jle destruction. '.fe offer the following in
support of this position.
;
"\lhat ha"O"Oens to Lake Genrge' s ma ~ or wetlar.ds area
in the n~;r future is of vital import8nce not only
to the lake itself but to all those concerned boout
its ~rotection and preservation."
liAs [1atters stand right now, the lc::lr;2s-: ",'ctlcmd
area at L3~ce George is thre8-cc~1ed w~ t: = er:.~ari.cnt and
i:retr-,-~''l:..-:)le damage. The se::..~iou8~.-..;c, ~ __ -':::-.8 -c..reat
lS; '.:;..ic~ely ,lppreciated, nor is it , ".J~J.' under-
f'-;~'-i~ ~ Lr~l,sJs trlC area can be 's~~\r ';,~ .~~-, ~y, and
~~~~E~~~d, i~s uniqua wildlife ch~_~~ _ disappc~r
:: or'c;' 6.'. SL:.C:':. a loss would be an c.,~ ,':":. _, _ catas-
era ~J;.2 ::'or :.. ake G8orge. II
, ". r." ,,',OI:',:~ 0:1." i\L:\'IUl~'_
'----
110;-:.1.', ':::-1. recent years has tie '0' .S., ~', _.; .h ~_ ,)
,.d.c:r6.c,-,na. that a wetland 'p':"'8YS a ..1.. _..i':"'..;. ~__ ...:;-',..lrE.':.J
..
L ;:-.)
u s
K E E P
L A K E
G E 0 R G E
C L "-
2.
--
life cycle, whe4her it is located on a sea cost or
alongside an inland body of water such as Lake George.
Biological scientist's have long been aware that an
undisturbed wetland is one of the most productive
habitats for fish, animal and plant life found in
Nature. Its characteristics a~e, in a way, a combi-
nation of those found in upland areas such as a forest
or a field and those found in the ocean or a lake.
Both water and land plants in a marshland provide an
abundance of food and nutrients, and conditions which
are ideal for breeding. The tangle of marsh vegetation
acts as a filter for the surface water as it runs off
from higher ground. Wnen adjacent to a lake, such an
area plays a critical role in the natural development
of the lake's shoreline and of fish life in the lake
itself."
'rHE WETLANDS AT LAKE GEORGE
--
"Around Lake George, the rocks plunge steeply into
the water in most places. There are several minor
wetland areas, but the largest by far is that at the
southeastern end of the lake, behind Dunham Bay,
Harris Bay and Warner Bay. Embracing more than a
thousand acres, all privately owned, it is one of the
largest unpolluted, freshwater wetlands left in New
York State. Its importance to the ecosystem of Lake
George can hardly be over-estimated."
;
',mAT WOULD BE DESTROYED
"It has taken Nature more than 10,000 years to produce
this Lake George wetland ---- from the time when the
last retreat of glacial ice left its burden in the val-
ley east of French Mountain to dam an ancient river
bed and form the present lake. Undisturbed for a
hundred centuries, the wetlands wildlife n~w faces the
prospect ot: being .obliterated by Man in a few years."
"Just what will be lost, if this occurs? Vlhile a sys-
~ematic inventory of the flora and fauna in this thou-
sand-acre tract has not been completed, one did start
just recently. Nevertheless a handful of naturalists
have long been aware of the unique character of the
area and its probable linkage to the ecosystem of Lake
George."
"_'or exmnple: Eight specimens of extremely rare bog
turtle __n, one of the nation's "endangered species",
.
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-
only 63 of which have ever been found in New York State
---- \'lere collected for the I\'stional Museum in the Dun-
ham Bay inlet in 1884. Conceivably, scientists could
find another bog turtle today in Dunham Bay inlet, but
not if the area undergoes development for human habita-
tion. "
"The present scientific inventory, while hardly begun,
has already shovm there is a wealth of fish, bird, ani-
l~al, insect and plant life in these marshy areas which
will disappear unless t~c wetland is protect~d from
the incu~sions of ~~n. :ie following listing is far
frow cOIplete, ~ut it ~~:l serve to indicate what is
there to be lost."
F'ISH
"---
liThe three inlet streams "'thich empty into the lake are
shallow in depth and support a wide variety of aquatic
plants on which fish and other life-forms feed. Con-
ditions are ideal for the spawning of certain species,
especially northern pike and largemouth bass. In a
recent nine-day census, one inlet showed a weir count
of 160 pike ranging up to 12 pounds and'34-inch length;
59 bass, running up to 6 pounds, were netted. Other
varieties found include yellow perch, brown bullhead,
black crappie, common sunfish, golden shiner, cornmon
whi~sucker, cisco and rainbow trout. Tagging of
certain'species revealed later clear evidence of the
connection between the inlet as a spawning ground and
the fish populations in the main body of the lake."
~
\'ll\TERFOWL
"Abundant food for waterfowl exists in the wetland,
both'plant and animal. Plant forms include several
varietiesoof pondweed, pond lily, ~ater lily, duck-
weed, burreed, cattail, bulrush, pickerelweed and
coontail. -Waterfowl observed feeding or nesting in
the area included black ducks, wood ducks, mallards,
teal and Canada geese."
Q'IHER BIRDLIFE
"IJ.1he wetland was confirmed to be the habitat of the
marsh hawk, blue heron, green heron, 1\lnerican bittern,
killdeer, ring-billed gull, ruby-throated hummingbird,
yellow-shafted flicker"downy woodpecker, belted king-
'-
..
4.
'-
fisner, eastern kin~birc, three verities of swallows~
blue jay, common crow, long-billed marsh wren, black-
capped chickadee, cedar waxwing, yellow warbler, yel-
lov/threat, red-winged blackbird, common grackle, car-
dinal, rose-breated grosbeak, American goldfinch,.
white-throated sparrow, song sparrow, robin, Balti-
more oriole, indigo bunting. Probably there are many
others.1I
i\NIkl\L LIFE
"h!uskrat, otter, mink, beaver and racoon are among the
fur-bearers found in the marsh. In addition'there are
numerous smaller mammals, a~ well as frogs,: turtles,
snakes, salamanders, and a wide variety of inverte-
brates. One local trapper reported it was not unusual
to take as many as a hundred muskrat in one week in
the spring, working his trapline in the hours before
going to his daily job."
"Such are the documented facts as to what exist in
the wetland today. There is little doubt the scien-
tists will expand their 11sts as time permits comple-
tion of the detailed inventory."
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"But the wildlife that is there today may not wait
that long. A question Which-every citizen who is
seriously concerned about Lake George must ask him-
self isi "Am I content to sit idly by and watch
Nature be raped in these wetlands by the blades of
bulldozers and the scouring thrust of boat propel-
lors in the shallow inlet streams?"
"If one's enwer is "yes", one had better take a
good look at what's there now, for soon there may
be only the memory of what existed in the marsh be-
fore it was "improved" by the developers cerving it
up for human occupation.1I
The foregoing incomplete inventory of Dunham's Bay
plants and wildlife is a compilation of actual obser-
vations made by qualified biologists, ornithologists
and other naturalists who have studied these wetlands.
There is much more to the story of these wetlands
that needs -to be told. This 1100 acre swamp is a
vital part of Lake George. It isa nursery for many
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of the micro-organisms, fish and other marine life that
inhabit the Lake. Their supporting food chains extend
back into the marsh.
Perhaps the most important thing about these wetlands
are their relationship to Lake George as a whole. This
relationship is a highly complex subject which can best
be expalined by a scientist familiar with both the wet-
lnad area and the Lake itself. To explain this part of
the story we asked Dr. Carl George, of the Department
of Biological Sciences at Union College and Chairman
of the Northeast Chapter, the Nature Conservancy, to
prepare the attached report~
We sincerely hope this letter and report gives you an
insight into the importance of keeping the Dunham, Har-
ris and Warner Bay wetlands in their present natural
condition. Please let us know if we can be of further
assistance.
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Yours very truly,
, -./'., .,~ ~ ~~
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. Oc~ :fie: i>tl'/1/t64-;/ L-'
Iijsle W. Morton
President
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c.--ARTMENT OF BIOLOGICAL SCIENCES
UNION COL.L.EGE
SCHENECTADY, N.Y. 12308
TEL.: (SI8) 346.87SI
June 30, 1972
1"r. Wayne Bryne, CoChairman
~he Adirondack Conservancy Committee
c/o Institute of History, Art and Science
Lake George Village, New York 12845
Dear Wayne:
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Thanks to you and your many coworkers, the Dunham Bay
Wetlands continue in the headlines of conservation action
in the Adirondacks and your Committee is to be fully commended
for its timely and most critical action. You are acting to
preserve the largest wetlands of one of Amer~ca's most notable
lakes and certainly one of, if not,the most vulnerable and im-
portant wetlands of New York State.
r would now like to turn my remarks toward providing a
number of points suitable for your use and the use of the
several elec~ed officials of the Tovm of Queensbury, one of
the communities most responsible for the preservation of the
area.
To begin with, the people of this state through their
chosen officers in the Department of Environment81 Conserva-
tion are now frequently taking the position of requiring a
developer undertaking significant construction to show evi-
dence to the effect that his activities will not seriously
modify our natural heritage. From the onset tnen I would
suggest that the Adir~ndack Conservancy take all possible ef-
forts to assure that the Developer will provide full details
on what he actually tends to do and the projected environmental
i~pact of such efforts. Further, the ACC should actively
follow the Department of Environmental Conservation's evalua-
tion and the 2dvertized public hearings to assure that the
Dropose~ development is being fully considered. We are fortu-
nate to have many competent specialists who are in a position
to evsluat8 the r(quired impact study of the develop~r. In
a se:r13e one is not innocent until proven guilty in environ:. ental
~atters, better, a project is potentially guilty until shoo..
otherwise.
0fext, r would like to accent the importance of viewi:.;
the Dunham Bay Wetlands within the context of the total cr~inage
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basin of the Lake George system. We are not discussing an
isolated site but rather a part of a totality which may be
slow to react but almost inexorable in change once such change.
has been initiated. Toward considering the systemic approach
I would like to accent the importance of soliciting expert
testimony from the several scientists of the Lake George Fresh-
water Institute, especially regarding matters of chemistry,
hydrology, microbiology and planktonology. You cannot expect
sweeping and absolute statements regarding the overall merits
of the proposed construction; however you can expect the best
information available on specific topics. I have. made an ef-
fort to communicate with most of the workers associated with
the Institite. I have also spoken with other specialists and
have made three trips by small boat and canoe into the Dunham
Bay sector of the wetlands. I have also viewed the somewhat
rough plans of the developer, which purport to display the
general character of the proposed development. The following
generalizations seem acceptably defensible at this time.
1. The Developer, Still Creek, Inc., has already intro-
duced into the wetland considerable quantities of fill. The
identities of the several plant species indicative of the wet-
land character listed here but for the sake of brevity will'
not be; however such plant species could be. presented to any
competent botanist familiar with local flora' for evaluation.
Organisms which perennially occupy'the site in question are
certainly the best indicators of its essential character.
The intrusion as I have obser.ved also consists of
displacement and tramp~ing wetlands vegetation, the construc-
tion of one structure, and the damaging of significant numbers
of trees through root covering by fill.
2. The main and axi.al streal:! meandering through the
Dunham Buy sector of tlie wetlands does indeed "stream" lake-
ward, i.e. the stream'moves with varying velocity toward the
lake and would thus serve as a means of carrying the influence
of the site development into other parts of the wetland and
eventually into Lake George itself. I would assume that the
velocity and thus volume of water moving through this stream
varies with the seasons being maximum during the spring and
at some time after periods of rain.
3. The flora of the marsh and more peripheral swamp is
indeed diverse and existing listings prepared by competent
specialists further attest to the distinctive and generally
unnerturbed charcter of the area. My several conversations
wi~h the state botanist of New York State, a person speciali-
zinq in aquatic plants and with more than 20 years experience
in i-:Jew York's wetlands claims the Dunham Bay 'iletlands to be
the finest for general Fquatic plant study in the state. At
~res8nt, the area is intact and appropriate for its floristic
diversity, proximity to major population centers, and extent
as a major instructional and research facility. The area on
this basis alone is established as a major environmental re-
source for the people of this state.
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4. ~he strea8 running from the vicinity of the proposed
(~nd already initiated) development will inevitably be used by
residents of the proposed.development unless special restric-
tions be placed on such use at the very onset. In that I have
heard the developer specifically state that he has planned his
development for this site in order to give residents of the
development access to Lake George by boat, I feel that it is
safe to assume that significant boat traffic will indeed be a
consequence of the development.
Considering the distances involved (ca. 2 miles) it
also seems fair to deduce that motorized craft will be used
in the stream. With this point in mind one must consider the
consequences. If motorized craft move slowly they will bperate
at low fuel combustion efficiency and release rel?tively larger
a~lounts of oil and gasoline. If craft move quickly the distur-
bance of the highly unstable bottom and banks will be even
further accented. The combined action of prop induced turbulence
and the assorted hydrocarbons will, in all likelihood, greatly
disturb the existing array of plant and animals now colonizing
or briefly visiting during the spawning forays. The northern
. pH;:e cmd the largemouth bass, significant species in the sport
fisheries of the Lake, will most likely be seriously damaged
in terms of their propogation.
5. A major question which should fall the responsibility
of the developer is the assessment .of the actual amounts of
organic detritus which will be activated 'and translocated in
the stream through the action of the motorized craft he will
attract to the area. Given the highly organic character of
the bottom and the movement of the waters one may safely pre- .~
dict that organic matter will indeed be moved toward the Lake,
the actual amounts VArying with the volume of flow and the
extent of prop turbulence The developer is next faced with
the question of impac.c of such organic detritus on the Lake.
In other streams and lakes such organic matter may place a
significant biological oxygen demand on the receiving environ x-
mente In this case, one can suggest that the receiving envi-
ronment will be the deeper water of the Lake. If such oxygen
demand is great, especially during warmer years, oxygen levels
in the deeper waters could be further depleted of oxygen moving
the lake ever closer to the serious consequences of anoxic con-
ditions (Which are loss of lake life and the release of certain
nutrients held by the sediments). This stress coupled with
the now well established higher phosphate levels and produc-
tivity in the southern part of the Lake could be a serious
factor in the decline of water quality in a variety of ways.
Considering the vast amounts of organic matter now held in
the wetlands se~ious decline of the stabilizing existing ~ege-
tation could have serious repercusions on the entire lake.
6. Another aspect of marshland deterioration is the now
well recognized release of phosphate, especially in marine ·
coastal circumstances. In some areas of the New England
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coast one of the greatest sources of phosphate is the deterio-
rating marshes. ~elease of phosphate from the marsh is inevi-
table with disturbance. The question, of course, is just how
much. Again, the developer should bear the burden of answering
this question in that he is provoking the circumstances under
which such projected release could occur. Given the fact that
outboard motors create turbullence ten feet and more deep and
that much of the stream is now only a foot or less deep (even
at highest water) much organic matter will be translocated and
it may be assumed that this organic matter does indeed carry
significant amounts of phosphorus.
7. Let us now turn to several of the questions which
relate to the needs of the residents who come to occupy the
proposed development. It is expected that the developer will
be sensitive to their likely activities, and expectations. The
several questions which I have on this aspect are:
a. How stable is the fill ~hich is now being introduged?
Will it settle causing the homeowner undue expense
in maintenance of structures and land surfaces?
b. Will herbicides be permitted for the control of
lawn, garden, swamp and marsh vegetation? What
influence will these herbicides have on the other
parts of the marsh and the Lake?
c. Will the close proximity of resid~nces and peren-
nial standing water gen~rate insect problems which
will require extraordinary control procedures such
as broadscale spraying? If such spraying does
occur what impact is projected for the immediate
area and the marsh at large? .J
d. Will residents be allowed to maintain pets such
as dogs and cats? If so what influence will such
animals have on nesting waterfowl and other wild-
life in the marsh? .
e. What restrictions will be placed on the use of
specialized vehicles such as snowrnobiles, swamp
buggies, propeller craft, all terrain vehicles,
etc. which might be prompted by the proximity to
the marsh area? If such restrictions are not
planned what impact will such vehicle use have on
the marsh?
f. What activities regarding substrate management
might be projected as inevitable and necessary
by residents (i.e. ditching, filling, dredging,
etc.) and how will these relate to federal, state
and municipal law? In other words are residents
being placed in a position of implicit violation
of standing laws designed to protect and regulate
the use of natural resources?
g. I}:'o,.what extent will lavms and gardens be developed
and what impact will' such development have on the
marsh and the Lake? The application of fertilizers,
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bicides and pH regulating chemicals may prove
especxally critical here.
h. How will waste waters be treated and what impact
will such treatment have upon the marsh, the-Lake
and water supply? What safety factors are planned
for the system and what are the implications of
failure at different seasons of the year?
8. Finally, several much more difficult questions arise
which must be considered. Does the development constitute a
"precedent", which will lead to further de;'elopment of the
same type? If it does what are the implications?
9. Next, will those persons who take occupancy be placed
in significant social jeopardy, i.e. will they because of lack
of information enter into a complex and awkward involvement
which will prove destructive to their health, financial well-
being and status in the general community of the Lake George
Region?
10. Finally, what are the realities of the tax structure
related to the development? Until the accounting is well re-
searched and detailed the net gain of revenue for the hosting
community remains in serious question. The problems of water
supply, solid waste disposal, law enforcement, wildlife manage-
ment, water resource management, health care, and the supply
of other social needs may under such circumstances place an
unusual and excessive burden upon the tcwnship. Intrusion
into a typical or vulnerable development site frequently has
just this consequence. We have learned at great social cost
not to build. on river flood plains, unstable slopes, geolo-
gical fault lines, areas prone to fire, etc., and it is be- ~
coming rapidly clear that marshland development has its own
problems as well.
In review then there is but one conclusion. Many ques-
tions have been left unanswered and these questions are not
easily answered. Suitably detailed answers will take both
time and considerable money. However, to undertake the devel-
opment as proposed without such answers well in hand has the
very real potential, in this opinion, of generating quite
significant and widespread social costs which will have to
be borne by the community at large rather than those respon-
sible for the development. In short, the development has
the potential of being counterproduotive, contributing to
a net loss of life quality for the entire Lake George basin
system.
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I would thus, urge that those responsible take all pos-
sible action to require the developer to provide information
which will indeed allow the fair and judicious decision
making. The matter is certainly not one of limiting any
person's constitutional rights, rather it is protecting the
rights of those who stand to lose through the abuse of the
freedom assigned to each participant of a free enterprise
society.
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Biology
Chairman
Eastern New York Chapter
The Nature Conservancy
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