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1990-02-05 SP '---' QUEENSBURY PLANNING BOARD MEETING SPECIAL MEETING FEBRUARY 5TH, 1990 INDEX Subdivision No. 1-1990 Quaansbury Economic Davalopmant Corp. 1. THESE ARE NOT OFFICIALLY ADOPTED MINUTES AND ARE SUBJECT TO BOARD AND STAFF REVISIONS. THESE REVISIONS WILL APPEAR ON THE FOLLOWING MONTHS MINUTES (IF ANY) AND WILL STATE SUCH APPROVAL OF SAID MINUTES. '---' '--" QUEENSBURY PLANNING BOARD MEETING SPECIAL MEETING FEBRUARY 5TH, 1990 7:00 PM MEMBERS PRESENT RICHARD ROBERTS, CHAIRMAN CAROL PULVER, SECRETARY PETER CARTIER JAMES HAGAN JOSEPH DYBAS NICHOLAS CAIMANO TOWN ENGINEER-WAYNE GANNETT DEPUTY TOWN ATTORNEY-KARLA CORPUS LEE YORK, SENIOR PLANNER SUBDIVISION NO. 1-1990 SKETCH PLAN QUEENSBURY ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT CORP. DIX AVENUE NICK SCARTELLI;JOHN LAPPER PRESENT MR. SCARTELLI-Stat~d I gu~ss ~v~rybody has a SH of plans. Th~ s~t of plans I hav~ h~r~ ar~ probably a littl~ bit mor~ ~xt~nsiv~ than th~ on~ you hav~. Th~s~ ar~ th~ on~s W~ us~ for pr~liminary and final submission. So, I IV~ chang~d a f~w of th~s~ sh~~ts. You might s~~ som~ information that's shown on h~r~ that's not shown on th~r~. Primarily, in th~ P building, on th~ l~ft hand sid~ coming in, it just shows som~ of th~ ~xt~nsiv~ work that was don~. MR. CAIMANO-Stat~d mayb~ w~ should d~al with his. Yours is mor~ up to dat~. MR. SCARTELLI-Stat~d you hav~ this. This wasn't on th~r~ at th~ tim~ b~caus~ w~ put it on for pr~liminary and final. MR. ROBERTS-Stat~d I gu~ss I'm going a littl~ out of ord~r. Normally, w~ list~n to Staff's and our Engin~~rs comm~nts. Do~s it mak~ any s~ns~ to do that tonight or should w~ list~n to th~ pr~s~ntation first? MRS. YORK-Stat~d what ~v~r you want, Mr. Chairman. MR. ROBERTS-Stat~d w~ll, l~t m~ back track, lik~ w~ hav~ b~~n doing, at l~ast, and list~n to Staffls r~ports h~r~ first. STAFF INPUT Not~s from L~~ A. York, S~nior Plann~r (attach~d) MRS. YORK-Stat~d on~ thing I just want to v~rify, and I know it I S an ov~rsight h~r~, is th~ numb~r of lots anticipat~d in th~ subdivision. On your traffic r~port, it id~ntifi~s th~ subdivision as having 12 parc~ls and th~ map and th~ application stat~ th~ numb~r at 9 and th~n in anoth~r plac~ it says th~r~ ar~ 8 lots. So, I'd just lik~ to v~rify, for th~ r~cord, how many lots and I know you will do that as soon as I'm don~. ENGINEER REPORT Not~s from Wayn~ Gann~tt, Town Engin~~r (attach~d) MR. SCARTELLI-Stat~d 1111 clarify a f~w things. First of all, th~ traffic r~port. Th~ traffic r~port I did wh~n I first start~d th~ Proj~ct. Cons~qu~ntly, I analyz~d it as th~ whol~ d~v~lopm~nt, including th~ two lots that w~r~ pr~s~ntly occupi~d. I f~~l as though, at th~ tim~ wh~n I did it, that nothing was don~, as far as traffic was conc~rn~d on th~ individual parc~ls, so I did it as a whol~ t~chnical park including thos~ lots. Th~ on~ r~ason why it do~s includ~ a littl~ mor~ is that lot 4, at on~ tim~, was divid~d into two lots, of cours~ now it includ~s on~ that's now into on~ lot and, of cours~, that mad~ th~ tw~lv~ lots that w~r~ in th~ traffic r~port. Th~ traffic r~port, of cours~, as I said, was p~rform~d and I did it b~for~ w~ had any contact with Valcour. It had anticipat~d, of cours~, 1 '--- '-_/ lot 9 as having an accass to tha roadway, diract accass, whathar or not it would ba in a singla lot or dividad lots, and tharaby usa Dix Avanua as an axit. With Valcour's prasantly having an accass from thair proparty, which is adjacant to this sita on tha southwast sida, that soma of tha paak traffic, paak hourly traffic, will ba raducad bacausa that is tha largast lot of tha group, that's of 15.96 acras. As I say, tha lot with tha two lots, now including tha smallar lot and, of coursa, tha lot 3 baing takan up by tha Rozall' s. Tha ramaining 8 lots to ba subdividad is approximataly around 32 acras. Thay ranga from about 1.3 acras to, of coursa, 15.96 which is tha larga lot to tha south of tha Projact. Tha Projact is mostly, as you 'va probably noticad whan you'ra passing tha sita, is mostly slopas to tha south and along tha southarn bordar of tha sita is locatad a Niagra Mohawk right-of-way, transmission 1ina. I think it's callad tha Hudson Falls transmission lina and that, of coursa, bordars tha Projact on tha south. On tha wast sida, tha sita is bordarad by tha Glans Falls Industrial and Tachnical Park and on tha aast sida it is bordarad by lands ownad by Clauda Charlabois. Tha síta is prasantly sarvicad by a singh antranca off of Dix Avanua which is around 1600 faat wast of tha intarsaction of Dix Avanua and Quakar Road. Tha singla antranca comas in off of Dix Avanua and, of coursa, it splits into two roadways with a madian and it continuas down to tha south for about 700 faat, that is tha portion that is alraady built and has baan accaptad by tha Town of Quaansbury. To tha aastarn saction, of coursa, wa hava a split roadway which goas ovar to tha aastarn saction of tha Park. It has, approximataly, a 20 foot madian. It I S two 24 foot roadways with wing typa curvas and it's tha naw typa of roadway. It has a cul-da-sac, which has approximataly 102 foot radius which is on tha aastarn saction. Dua to tha sida hill of tha lay of tha land, what wa hava dona, and back on this shaat, wa hava a typical saction and tha typical saction shows that tha madian will slopa at about a maximum of 10 parcant and this is to minimiza tha fill saction on tha south sida of tha most southarly roadway. Bacausa of tha sida hill, whan wa dasignad tha profila, thara ara two, indapandant profilas, tharaby tha fill raquirad on tha southarly roadway, will only ba about 1 to 2 faat dua to tha axtramitias of tha sida hill. As you saa, tha contours along tha south sida ara pratty minimal. Locatad through tha Projact, is a drainaga coursa, a straam, that has its haadwatars starting from about tha aast/wast runway of tha Warran County airport, that watarshad axtands that far north and, of coursa, it ancompassas an araa which goas all tha way ovar to Ridga Road and all tha way ovar almost to Dix Avanua on tha aast sida. It's about, mayba, a width of around 13 or 1400 faat wida and about tha sama distanca north from Quakar Road. Tha total watarshad varias from anywhara from about 1400 to about 1800 acras. Thara is about 500 and soma odd acras of watlands includad in that acraaga. Tha drainaga coursa comas down, it crossas Quakar Road and it has, as a conduit thara, a 48 inch corrugatad, matal pipa. It comas down batwaan Quakar Road and Dix Avanua by an opan ditch that crossas Dix Avanua with anothar conduit which is a 36 inch CMP pipa. Intarnally, in tha madian, tha cross ovar of tha two intarnal roadways, thara is thraa 24 inch culvarts and than tha straam flows southarly into a small body of watar and it dischargas out of tha body of watar with a small spillway and, of coursa, continuas southarly into a watlands to tha south of tha proparty. It's probably a littla bit difficult to saa sitas with this color, but tha sita, prasantly, is outlinad in rad. Tha Niagra Mohawk right-of-way continuas in an aastarly and wastarly diraction. Tha straam that you saa, that I was just spaaking, of comas down into a body of watar, dischargas, and comas down into a lowland on tha north sida of Warran Straat. Thara is anothar Warran lowland which is prasantly locatad just north of tha Niagra Mohawk right-of-way which is tha southarn portion of lot 9. That has a straam outlat which continuas in tha southaastarly diraction and flows into a culvart which is prasantly undar Warran Straat and dischargas into tha Faadar Canal. Tha straam, as it dischargas south in its own watar coursa, goas into a watlands, but also dischargas aastarly into tha sama straam which convargas in tha location that I hava my pancil and it continuas on into that sama culvart. That cu1vart that's undarnaath Warran Straat has a siza of about 6 foot wida by a foot and a half high. Unfortunataly, that is tha discharga and. On tha antranca and thara is about a 36 inch pipa. MR. DYBAS-Askad, Nick, just to rafrash mysalf, whan Mr. Sullivan, from tha City of Glans Falls, whara was all that watar ha was talking about that was running across? MR. SCARTELLI-Statad thara' s a papar straat which runs right down in thara which is prasantly dikad off by Paul Naylor, of coursa, it pravants tha watar from continuing down into tha watar coursa and going into tha Warran Straat undarpass. MR. CAIMANO-Askad, not down thara? 2 '---' MR. SCARTELLI-Statad what happans is, thara ara carta in storms of high intansity in whfch this occurs. It doasn' t happan on avary storm. It happans on, wall I can t vantura to say axactly which onas, probably, mayba 5 and 10 yaar storms and suraly anything abova that. MR. ROBERTS-Askad, you'ra saying, in a 10 yaar storm, soma of tha watar doas coma this way? MR. SCARTELLI-Statad wall, it did, at ona tima. Thara is prasantly, Paul, had built a dika which pravants that now. Now, whathar or not, as I say, it's a fiva yaar or 10 yaar storm, I can't raally tall. Ona of tha problams is, dua to tha rastriction of tha mouth of tha culvart undarnaath Warran Straat, that whola araa now builds up to just a larga body of watar and as it kaaps on building up, it'll saak it's own path in its laast path of rasistanca or whatavar outlat it has on this sida bacausa it can't gat through thara fast anough. MR. CARTIER-Askad, how long's tha dika baan thara? MR. SCARTELLI-Statad I think itls baan thara for tha last coupla of yaars. MR. CARTIER-Askad who owns this culvart? Who's rasponsibla for that? MR. SCARTELLI-Askad, this culvart hara? MR. CARTIER-Statad yas. MR. SCARTELLI-Statad I think that's a stat a highway. Tha stata highway bagins just outsida tha City of Glans Falls. Tha City of Glans Falls has jurisdiction of all of tha stata highways within its boundarias. Just whara tha City lina ands, thatls whan tha Stata takas ovar maintananca. MR. CAIMANO-Askad, so if you wara going to look for raliaf on that, who would ba tha parson rasponsibla, tha party rasponsibla for, raliaf as far as making that inlat as larga or largar than tha outlat, Nick. MR. SCARTELLI-Statad yould probably hava to go to tha Stata. MR. CAIMANO-Askad, if you had tha raliaf thara, if this was alright, than it would naturally flow down to hara and youlra saying thara'd ba no problam up hara? MR. SCARTELLI-Statad wall, I didn't say that. I said that that is ona of tha rastrictions of tha sita. Now, thara would hava to ba, possibly, soma sort of an agraamant with tha abutting proparty ownars. This araa right in hara is prasantly a papar subdivision. It doas hava straats and lot layout. Whan, in assanca, it would ba built, I couldn't tall you. MR. CARTIER-Statad tha Town of Quaansbury. MR. SCARTELLI-Statad yas, right, that's in tha Town of Quaansbury. RON MONTESI, TOWN BOARD MEMBER MR. MONTESI-Statad Nick, thara wara two things that Paul did whan ha built tha dika, thara' s anothar road that goas ovar and tha culvart was running tha wrong way. MR. SCARTELLI-Statad this ona hara. MR. MONTESI-Statad yas. Wa dug that up and put a naw culvart pipa in thara. MR. SCARTELLI-Statad thara's two 24 inch culvarts undar this road right hara. That was tha ona that was installad by Paul, right in hara. MR. CARTIER-Askad, it was pitch toward whara tha dika? MR. SCARTELLI-Statad right, it was pitchad backward, right. MR. MONTESI-Statad and that was a small problam and than ha addrass, also diking it down on that 90 dagraa turn. MR. SCARTELLI-Statad 90 dagraa turn, right. Right down hara. MR. ROBERTS-Statad so now you I ra saying that all proparty than actually comas ovar to this point. tha undarpass, unlass it was a raally bad storm. of tha watar off this piaca of Doas not coma down hara toward ':\ -- -- MR. SCARTELLI-Statad it's not all tha watar just in thara. MR. ROBERTS-Statad I raaliza walra talking about a Rosancrantz swamp and avarybody. Probably soma of Charlabois's land as wall. MR. SCARTELLI-Statad yas, Charalbois's is off to tha sida. Thara' s only a small portion of Charlabois's proparty. This is part of his drainaga coursa which runs across just a cornar of tha tachnical park. It doas start in hara. Most of his land is shaat flow which flows in this, which was Olsan IS Garaga and tha sarvica station is down hara, but now this is prasantly all fillad in and is whara tha junk yard is. MR. DYBAS-Statad and gatting fillad in mora. MR. SCARTELLI-State:d this araa hara which was a natural, mada by, more: or lass, mothar: natura, for pond watar, but it was intarruptad whan, of coursa, Warran Straat was constructad. Now this is prasantly fille:d in and, of coursa, the: watar would just lay up and would discharga into this brook hara. MR. MONTESI-Askad, Nick, how do thay build a pipa 36 inchas to 6 faat. What mada that that way? MR. SCARTELLI-State:d I couldn't tall you. I didn't gat down thara and look at tha culvart, for ona thing. Our survay partias want down and chackad out tha siza. If I was to go down thara, probably what happans is whan somabody was filling in thair lands when thara wasn't a lot of rastriction yaars ago, thay just want out thara a stuck a 36 inch pipe: in thara and just continuad it on. Tha watarshad upstraam of this whole: araa was probably lass davalopad. You didn't hava tha problam that you ara avidancing today bacausa of tha runoffs ware: a lot diffarant. Thara's just anough discharga now, due: to tha watarshad changa, whara you' ra now avidancing mora flooding down in this araa than you did, say, 20 yaars ago. MR. ROBERTS-Statad and wa can anticipata more: MR. SCARTELLI-Statad as it is davalopad. MR. ROBERTS-Statad wa hava suggaste:d, I guass, to tha Town Board and racaivad a lattar from Stava that wa parhaps soma sort of a naighborhood solution to this drainage: problam naads to ba lookad at. Your anginaars, Charlabois I s e:nginaars, and tha City's, probably coordinatad by somabody in tha Town. Doasn' t sound to me: lika wa'va gottan that far. MR. SCARTELLI-Statad I'll tall you what wa hava dona on our sita hara. What wa did, and wa workad on tha basis of two bacausa of tha two Projacts and tha closa proximity to aach othar as far as davalopmant. Whan I want through this, I analyze:d tha sita as just tha sita itsalf and than, of coursa, I want off sita to saa how much was coming through. I did find out from Laon Stavas that this straam, tha upstraam land ownars, has a right of discharge: down through hara that date:s back to 1886, somawhare: around that araa. It doas dascriba a cartain channal that can ba constructad. Tha channal is not that big. It's only, I think, 10 foot across tha top, at tha widast point at tha top, and it can slopa down to 3 for tha bottom. That configuration of a channal or ditch won't carry a hack of a lot of discharga. As I say, whan this was farm land, all traas no pavamant, it probably was mora than that, for thosa paople:, as I say, 100 yaars ago. Today wa I ra talking about high ratas of runoff, whe:n you considar not so much as a 10 yaar storm, but you' ra talking about, 50 and 100 yaar storms. You' ra talking about in tha vicinity of this channal will discharga anywhara from 160 CFS to 210 CFS. This'll taka a channal, raquirad channa 1 , 20 foot wida at tha bottom, ona or two side: slopas, and 12 foot daap. MR. CARTIER-Askad 20 foot wida at tha bottom? MR. ROBERTS-Statad in othar words, what you 'va got hara is not adaquata. MR. SCARTELLI-Statad not for tha 100 yaar storm. MR. ROBERTS-Statad tha 100 yaar storm. MR. SCARTELLI-Statad for a 50 yaar storm, it's raducad considarably and for tha 10 yaar storm it falls down to, somawhara in tha vicinity of, around 100 CFS, just undar, it's about 80 CFS. Now, this takas into considaration if tha proparty 4 -- own~rs north of Quak~r Road hold back ~v~rything to a 10 y~ar discharg~ of und~v~lop~d land, thatls primarily what you'r~ crit~ria says. Th~ culv~rt at Quak~r Road, which is a 48 inch CMP, giv~n th~ h~ight of wat~r that it can build up and not flow ov~r th~ top of th~ road and carry 80 CFS. Th~ 36 inch at Dix Av~nu~, giv~n th~ h~ight of th~ wat~r, which would ~xc~~d th~ r~gulations, th~ r~gulations say that you can't hav~ a h~adwat~r of mor~ than on~ and a half tim~s th~ diam~tar or th~ h~ight of tha pipa. Now wa' ra talking about mayba, two and a half to thraa tim~s that. Two and a half timas tha haight of tha 36 inch will pass about 80 CFS. Tha thraa 24 inch pipas that ara prasantly installad undarnaath tha cross ovar road will discharga about tha sama thing, about 80 CFS. As I say, wa'ra in a point whara tha prasant culvarts ara adaquata, it's tha ditch, in ordar to gat thara, that's rastrictiva. Tha ditch, as I say, to construct it, is by aasamant and to confina it, by aasamant, to a 3 foot bottom and a 10 foot top probably would not carry tha 70 or 80 CFS unlass it was on a vary staap slopa. I hav~ my book. I could run it through to tall you what it would ba, but it would ba vary low. It probably wouldn't ba vary high. MR. ROBERTS-Ask~d so you' ra saying tha ditch through tha dupbx proparty is not adaquat~? MR. SCARTELLI-Statad tha ona that is dß8cribad by tha aasamant of 1886. What I'm saying is, lagally, that's all you can widan a ditch out to. (TAPE TURNED) bacausa it says that you only can wind it 10 foot across tha top and 2 foot on tha bottom, I think it's 2 foot on tha bottom. It would ba a problam right thara. MR. ROBERTS-Ask~d so you' ra saying wa can't do much of anything upstr~am, tha situation probably isnlt ad~quata, that itls out of our control. MR. SCARTELLI-Statad wall, I'm not a l~gal lawyar, so I can't tall you. MS. CORPUS-Askad, can you gat around that? Can you find tha h~irs? Can you go forward? I raad all that stuff and that was my quastion whan somaona mantion~d tha aasamant. LEON STEVES, VAN DUSEN AND STEVES MR. STEVES-Statad I think tha othar thing that Nick didn't hit upon, my concarn is tha d~pth and I imagina tha raason that tha ditch wasn't constructad to tha width that thay wara grantad was bacausa thay hit badrock and thay'll rastrict anything anyway and I think that is somathing that rastricts tha flow southarly. MR. SCARTELLI-Statad prasantly, that's tha othar thing I was going to coma to, prasantly, whan you' ra talking about th~ ditch construction, thara is ,of coursa, a rastriction dua to tha alavation of ladga. Prasantly, undarnaath Dix Avanua, that is whara about ladga is. Thara' s not too much ovarburd~n on that invart of that ditch. You hav~ to blast down at laast, mayb~, 6 to 8 fa~t of low~ring that ladga to that araa thara. MR. CAIMANO-Askad, corract ma if I'm wrong hara, basically, it comas down to Laa's mamo, it says "Tha limitations ara shallow dapth of badrock and sarious drainaga problams". Evarything wa'va talkad about so far, I donlt haar anything positiva. Am I wrong? MR. SCARTELLI-Statad I hava to giva you tha background. I'm just trying to bring you up. I don't want somabody to coma back latar on and say, wall you didn't tall ma about that and I was laft in tha dark, and you know. MR. SCARTELLI-Statad what I hava don~, as I said, I inv~stigat~ ~varything off and on th~ sit~. Going on to what w~ call tha ~rosion control. Wa hava prasantly th~ lots, two on th~ right hand sid~ as you'r~ ~nt~ring tha sita. w~ hava, of cours~, th~ NDP building and wa hava, of cours~, thra~ that bord~r on th~ north sid~ of tha int~rnal roadways. Th~sa lots will drain towards tha roadway. Th~ir contours ar~ such that th~y flow~d to th~ ditch that was pr~s~ntly th~r~ in its axisting stat~. Th~ contours for th~s~ four lots, of cours~, will flow towards th~ north sida of th~ int~rnal roadway. Tha lot which is pr~s~ntly on Roz~ll, th~ on~ of Valcour and, of cours~, th~ on~ to th~ ~xtr~m~ ~ast, flows south~rly and, of cours~, discharg~s along to th~ southarn bord~r. What w~ hav~ inv~stigat~d is tha possibility of craating a r~t~ntion pond in tha m~dian for c~rtain lots, namaly, th~ two on tha right hand sid~, on tha wast~rly sid~, coming in and, of coursa, this on~ h~ra pr~santly dischargas into a clos~d drainaga systam that is alr~ady constructad along th~ roadway. Along tha roadway, th~ra ara catch basins that ar~ constructad in tha pavam~nt with a closad drainag~ systam. That 5 '--- -.../ systßm prßsßntly dischargßs to thß south of thß cross oVßr roadway and flows dirßctly into thß pond. What Wß arß proposing to do, in addition to crßating a rßtßntion basin in hßrß, is to crßatß a bßrm with a dischargß pipß in ordßr to dischargß thß maximum flow that Wß can which is about thß 80 CFS, crßatß a spillway so that any largß flows can, of coursß, dischargß without damaging thß bßrm. In addition to that, our closßd drainagß systßm in hßrß is sufficißnt in sizß so that it will connßct into thß closßd drainagß systßm. What Wß havß donß in hßrß is, for thßSß catch basins hßrß, Wß havß installßd an 18 inch outlßt pipß to dischargß into thß mßdian. Wß havß proposßd, also, on thßsß DIls down furthßr, which is across from Rozßll, and thß intßntion is thßrß that thßSß lots in hßrß would build a bßrm to contain thß runoff on thßir sitß, whßn thßY comß in for sitß plan rßvißw, possibly, put a structurß down in this ßnd and thßY will bß ablß to connßct into thß systßm and dischargß into thß mßdian which is going to opßratß as a rßtßntion basin of around 26,600 cubic fßßt of watßr. MR. ROBERTS-Askßd, that'll bß dug out grßatßr than what it is now? MR. SCARTELLI-Statßd it could bß, Yßs. Right now, at thß ß1ßvation that wa havß this, Wß havß about 26,000 now in thßrß Wß can attain. MR. ROBERTS-Statßd it almost sßßms likß you'rß kind of natural. MR. SCARTELLI-Statßd and thß samß thing with this onß hßrß. This onß hßrß Wß will construct a drainaga structurß in this cornßr and connßct into this systßm in hßrß which will back flow into hßrß, into thß rßtßntion basin. What wß' rß saying is that Wß want to block off thosß two pipßs that dischargß south of us, into thß pond, so that that watßr will rßtain itsßlf up in hßrß, thß diffßrßncß bßtwßßn thß 10 Yßar dßvalopßd and thß 10 Yßar undßvßlopßd flows. Thß lots on this sidß, thß north sidß, of thß roadway havß, of coursß, thß samß condition. This lot will havß a bßrm on thßsß and, of coursß, thßY can connßct into aithßr this systßm or connact into this manholß or connßct into this catch basin hßra. This lot harß has an option. Thay can aithar connact in with a manholß into this systßm harß or fraa flow down. Wß'va providad a 20 foot drainaga ßasamant which will discharga bßcausß a part of thß drainaga thatls coming off tha Charlßbois's parcal will bß intßrruptßd by this drainaga ditch and, of coursa, dischargß down to tha watlands which is prasßntly on tha Niagra Mohawk propßrty. MR. CARTIER-Askad, ok, you'rß talking about building barms on soma of thaSß sitßs, doas that mßan that thßrß's going to bß tamporary ponding on soma of thoSß lots? MR. SCARTELLI-Statßd on soma of tham yas, thara hava to ba. MR. HAGAN-Askßd, how did you and up calculating tha 18 inch drain thatls in hara, tha thrßa of tham? MR. SCARTELLI-Askad tha thrßß of tham hara? MR. HAGAN-Statad yas. MR. SCARTELLI-Askßd you maan thß outlats? That's basad primarily on tha diffßrantial that this araa would ralaasa onto thß roadway or from harß into this systßm and coma in, you know, as far as what would rßlaasa a diffarancß. MR. HAGAN-Askad, is thßrß any ..factor in that 18 inchßs? MR. SCARTELLI-Statßd, wall, not too much bßcausa of tha fact that it's prßsßntly 18 inchas across thß road way. This is morß or lßss a rßlißf. Tha pipa that's in thßrß now, that was constructßd to join thß two DI's that arß in thß pavßmßnt, is an 18 inch pipß. Tha only thing that you can rßlaasß from this propßrty, is thß diffßrantial batwßan thß dßvalopßd and undavßlopßd statß of that proparty, which you I rß only rß1ßasing somßtimßs ßithßr on a 12, 15, or 18 inch pipa. If you raIßasß it on a 24 inch pipß, you' rß gßtting an awful lot of watar with not an awful lot of runoff. Tha propßrty hßrß at thß southßrn part of thß sita including Rozßll, if hß continußs on, would havß, of coursa, thß opportunity of having a ratßntion arßa also and, of coursß, dischargß into tha straam flow that's prasant ly in hßra. This, right in hara, this rßtßntion arßa that's on lot 9, is approximatßly around 36,000 cubic fßßt of watar. Thß pipß that is through tha rßtßntion basin, now thß ratantion basin in its final stata will havß a closa off hßrß and hava two outlßts which will dischargß into tha ditch, but prßsßntly, this is a 36 by 31 arch pipß. In othßr words, Wß try and kßßp thß hßad as low as possiblß. Tharß' s 36,000 cubic faßt of watßr in this rßtantion basin, plus thßrß's approximatßly 32,000 cubic fßßt of rßtantion in thß rßlocatßd ditch dUß to building up a hßight 6 '--- of wat~r. On s~cond thought, possibly, on this in h~r~, w~ may b~ abl~ to put a s~ri~s of thr~~ ti~r piping rath~r than hav~ a singl~ outl~t pip~ and th~r~by, control th~ discharg~ a littl~ b~tt~r and that is, put a pip~ down on th~ bottom and th~n two off to th~ sid~. This will carry low flows that'll r~tain a c~rtain amount of wat~r until thos~ b~nd and, of cours~, th~s~ two will discharg~. MR. HAGAN-Ask~d, this may b~ a stupid qu~stion, but how do you plan to r~tain that wat~r? MR. SCARTELLI-Ask~d, this wat~r h~r~? MR. HAGAN-Stat~d right, for what p~riod of tim~. You k~~p talking about r~t~ntion and I und~rstand what r~t~ntion is, but you also hav~ to control g~tting rid of that r~t~ntion, oth~rwis~, you hurt yours~lf. MR. SCARTELLI-Stat~d how you r~l~as~, you r~l~as~ on siz~ of pip~ and a clos~d drainag~ syst~m, you r~l~as~ on siz~ as w~ll as slop~ of pip~. In a culv~rt, you r~l~as~ du~ to its siz~ at its op~ning b~caus~ of its conflu~nc~ of th~ pip~, du~ to its ~ntranc~, ~ach pip~ and ~ach siz~ and ~ach shap~ will just carry so much wat~r. Without trying to giv~ a class on hydraulics, th~ discharg~ of a pip~ is d~t~rmin~d by, what th~y call, h~adwat~r, th~ h~ight of th~ wat~r at th~ ~ntranc~ and that is, of cours~, du~ to th~ siz~ of th~ op~ning as w~ll as th~ wat~r that builds up. So what I'm saying is that w~' r~ controlling th~ wat~r, but w~ l~t th~ wat~r build up and by doing so it's also r~taining its~lf b~caus~ it's not passing straight through. MR. CARTIER-Stat~d you don't hav~ any control north of you. P~opl~ can dump and, by rights, hav~ th~ right to dump wat~r into this drainag~ way. So you don't hav~ any control ov~r that. It's logical to assum~ that, north of you, th~ flow off that prop~rty is going to incr~as~ as d~v~lopm~nt occurs along Quak~r Road and so on and so forth. How do~s that ~ff~ct th~ ponding that you' r~ talking about in various lots. As mor~ wat~r com~s from th~ north is that going to rais~ th~ wat~r tabl~ ~nough to cr~at~ gr~at~r r~t~ntion on individual lots? MRS. YORK-Stat~d actually, ~v~ryon~ that d~v~lops is now und~r th~ th~s~ p~opl~ ar~ and th~y hav~ to r~tain th~ir drainag~ on sit~. w~ wonlt hav~ a major probl~m in that r~sp~ct. sam~ r~gulations So, hop~fully, MR. SCARTELLI-State:d it 's lik~ th~ Hudson Riv~r. This, you could tak~, as th~ Hudson Riv~r, through he:r~ b~caus~ you'v~ got to l~t that wat~r go. I m~an, som~body up h~r~ in North Cr~~k, I m~an if th~y l~t th~ wate:r go, th~ guy down in Troy, h~'s going to hav~ to acc~pt it. What is he: going to do with it? In oth~r words, what I'm saying is, if this wat~r r~l~as~s up h~r~, youlv~ got to l~t it go through. JOHN LAPPER MR. LAPPER-Stat~d and w~' r~ taking e:v~rything that's coming und~r Dix Av~nu~, ~v~rything that com~s through und~r Dix Av~nu~, w~'r~ taking right through. MR. SCARTELLI-Stat~d we:' r~ allowing that thing to pass, but it do~sn' t mak~ any diff~re:nc~ which wat~r w~ r~tain. In oth~r words wh~th~r or not I r~tain som~ of th~ wate:r up he:re: or wh~th~r I r~tain the: wat~r from th~ sit~, I 'm r~taining wat~r. In oth~r words, I'm controlling th~ r~l~as~. MR. CAIMANO-Stat~d it's got to back up som~wh~r~ though. If you' r~ controlling th~ r~l~as~, if you'r~ controlling th~ pad, it has to back up som~wh~r~. MR. SCARTELLI-State:d I'm only controlling th~ r~l~as~ which I 'm r~sponsibl~ for on this d~v~lopme:nt. MR. CAIMANO-Stat~d so ~ach on~ going backwards, hav~ to do th~ sam~ thing. MR. SCARTELLI-Stat~d right, th~y hav~ to do th~ sam~ thing. subj~ct to th~ sam~ r~vi~ws that as w~ are:. Th~ir going to b~ MR. CARTIER-State:d but what's going to happe:n now is wh~n w~'r~ sitting h~r~ looking at a sit~ plan for an individual lot, on~ of th~ things w~'r~ going to hav~ to b~ v~ry car~ful about is squar~ footag~ of buildings, parking lots siz~, and major constitution ~ast of th~ prop~rty is going to b~ involv~d in a r~t~ntion basin. MR. SCARTELLI-Stat~d how w~ did this, as b~st w~ can, right now, is that w~ figur~d that ~ach lot would d~ve:lop to its full pot~ntial, that is 70 p~rc~nt, of building, 7 -.-/ parking lot, and walkways and roof arèa and 30 pèrcènt of pèrmèablè arèa, that's what thè règulations say you'rè allowèd. So what Wè do, is Wè figurèd that into our, what Wè call, our runoff factor from that plot of land or from thè total sitè and thèn, of coursè, that should bè thè maximum. Now, if somèthing dèvèlops past that, thèn of coursè, it's going to bè a littlè diffèrènt figurè. MR. CARTIER-Statèd thè thing that pops into my hèad is a rètèntion basin, onCè it is floodèd, pèrmèablè, it can't hold anymorè watèr. MR. GANNETT-Statèd YOU'Vè crèatèd a nonpèrmèablè surfacè with pèrmèability, but that samè situation rèally appliès to any parcèl thatls dèvèlopèd. MR. CAIMANO-Statèd but now it's critical. Now it's critical to this wholè thing. MR. SCARTELLI-Statèd what happèns in a rètèntion basin and, in othèr words, how you gèt a sizè, what you try to do is you try to plot what thèY call an inflow hydrograph and you plot thè rainfall from thè undèvèlopèd arèa. You plot thè onè from thè dèvèlopèd arèa and you plot thè onè from thè 50 Yèar storm. Thèn you havè a rèlèasè pipè. Now that rèlèasè pipè will dischargè at a ratè èqual to what it would dischargè on an undèvèlopèd statè. Now that has a cèrtain ratè that III always dischargè, but it will nèVèr dischargè morè than that max. So that has a dischargè likè that. Thè diffèrèncè bètwèèn this linè and that linè is what you havè to providè in storagè. This timè èlèmènt, bècausè of thè drainagè arèa b~ing small, mayb~ v~ry short. In th~ th~ory of drainag~, wh~n you'r~ talking about tim~s, if wat~r is allow~d to pass and all conduits arè propèrly d~sign~d this wat~r, b~ing at th~ low discharg~ point, will alr~ady hav~ gon~ through, pass~d by, and wat~r from th~ ar~a abov~ Quak~r Road will n~v~r coupl~ tog~th~r. In oth~r words, that III b~ going down th~ Hudson Riv~r b~for~ this' 11 ~v~r catch up to it, if th~ whol~ syst~m is propèrly dèsign~d. MR. CARTIER-Stat~d th~ r~ason I'm asking is I'm trying to g~t ah~ad of th~ gam~ h~r~, too, and looking at individual sit~ plans, th~s~ ar~ som~ of th~ things that th~y'r~ going to hav~ to consid~r v~ry car~fully and what th~y do on individual lots. MR. ROBERTS-Stat~d and mayb~ 70 p~rc~nt usag~ of somè of th~s~ lots is not practical. MRS. PULVER-Statèd h~(Mr. Scartalli) only figur~d that. H~ only us~d that as a figur~. H~ didn't say that ~v~rybody was going to build to 70 p~rc~nt. MR. ROBERTS-Stat~d for us to bè cons~rvativè in looking at this, I think P~t~r's thinking that mayb~ w~ want to b~ pr~tty cons~rvativ~ thèrè. MR. GANNETT-Stat~d I would think th~ critèria for Sitè plan r~vi~ws for ~ach of th~s~ individual lots is th~ sam~ that th~ Town alr~ady appli~s, to limit th~ d~v~lop~d runoff to no mor~ than th~ historic so ~ach individual lot is not contributing anymor~ to th~ runoff th~n th~y pr~s~ntly ar~ in thèir und~v~lop~d conditions which is consist~nt with th~ way th~ Town's policy alr~ady is. MR. ROBERTS-Stat~d in som~ cas~s th~y may not b~ abl~ to put as much on som~ of thos~ lots as th~y'd lik~. MR. GANNETT-Stat~d ~xactly. That may ~ff~ct th~ d~nsity of d~v~lopm~nt. MR. ROBERTS-Stat~d looking down th~ road. MR. SCARTELLI-Stat~d and you might want to go to oth~r typ~s of surfac~s. You might want to limit all of your parking lots to, say, grav~l surfac~s. MR. ROBERTS-Stat~d that has a limit~d ~ff~ct. MR. SCARTELLI-Stat~d it has a limit~d ~ff~ct, but th~r~ is somè sort of an ~ff~ct if you can hold th~ wat~r, ~v~n in th~ grav~l ar~a, in th~ voids, for a c~rtain amount of tim~ b~for~ it runs off. It h~lps. MR. CARTIER-Ask~d, how about v~g~tativ~ transpiration? Is wat~r out of th~ ground significantly ~nough to contribut~, kind of situation? that going to hold in any way, to this MR. GANNETT-Stat~d not r~ally fast ~nough for a storm wat~r situation. t~rm, slow s~~pagè situation, y~s, but, for a storm wat~r situation, ov~r and don~ with b~for~ that r~ally has a chanc~ to hav~ much ~ffèct. A long itls all 8 MR. SCARTELLI-Statßd what happßns is, whßn rainfall falls, it starts building up a film. Oncß that film brßaks up and shß starts flowing, shß' s going to dischargß all thß timß. To try to pßrcolatß into it, has to bß a vßry, vßry slow ratß. Whßn you'rß talking about thß storms that wß'rß talking about 10 25 50 d 100 I ' , , an Yßar, you rß talking about intßnsitißS that, you know, don't pßnßtratß in through thß soil that fast. Your onß and two Yßar storms, which arß vßry slow, thßy'rß thß nicß onßs that gßt into thß undßrground. MRS. YORK-Askßd, havß you talkßd to thß City of Glßns Falls ßnginaaring dßpartmant? MR. SCARTELLI-Statßd yas, I talkad to thß City of Glans Falls and thosa Sßt of plans want out today to thß City of Glans Falls. I spokß to tham. I showad tham, wa axplainßd tha whola concapt to tham. Tha sama thing and thay, of coursa, lookad at it and said what wa hava shown is a rßasonablß approach and thßY don't Sßß any problßms with it. MR. DYBAS-Statßd you gavß thßm a Sßt of plans today, so, obviously, thßY havßn't had timß to study it. MR. LAPPER-Statßd hß mßt with tham last wßak. MR. SCARTELLI-Statßd I mßt with thßm last wßak. MR. DYBAS-Askßd, oh, did you? MR. SCARTELLI-Statßd last wßßk is whßn I mßt with thßm and I axplainßd to thßm thß wholß situation. MRS. YORK-Askßd, arß thßY going to bß sßnding us somßthing in writing, thßY did sßnd a lßttßr to thß Board. MR. SCARTELLI-Statad Yßs, I told thßm that I I d apprßciatß, whßn thßY rßcßivad thß plans, on a formal basis, that wß' d apprßciatß gßtting a lßttßr from thßm. MRS. YORK-Statßd ok, thank you. MR. ROBERTS-Statßd our bottlßnack, thßn, is thß culvßrt undßr Warran Strßßt. MR. SCARTELLI-Statßd as I ßxplainßd a littla whilß ago, it comas down to monßY. Thß culvßrt sizß and thßrß arß diffßrßnt solutions, I'm just going to givß you thß most ßxtrßmß solution. I just want to giva you somß idßa of what sizß wß'rß talking about. Thß sizß that you naad to pass thß quantity of \Yatßr ... for a dßsignßd storm is about 6 to 8 inch .. .or a 4 by 5, 4 foot widß, 5 foot high, culvßrt, concrßtß culvßrt. That's tha siza wß'rß talking about. Wa nßßd approximatßly about 20 squarß fßßt of opßning to pass this undßr. That's attaining a lßast about a foot and a half. That maans that thß building, thß watßr would ba about 7 and a half foot apart. Eithßr onß of thoSß would cost anywhßrß from $180 to $210 a foot. I ran a rough cost. It comßs to about $350,000 if you want to go from placß south of hßrß, across Dix AVßnuß, on a straight shot for thß canal. MR. CAIMANO-Statßd you mßan Warran Strßat. MR. SCARTELLI-Statßd I mßan Warrßn Strßat to thß canal. Of coursß, that is rßcognizing thß fact that thß Statß of Nßw York would allow you to dischargß into thß canal dirßctly. MR. ROBERTS-Askßd, that's in a diffßrßnt location than thß prßsßnt culvßrt? MR. SCARTELLI-Statßd Yßs. MR. ROBERTS-Statßd I Sßß. I wouldn't mßandßr oVßr to thß aast so much. MR. SCARTELLI-Statßd that's prßtty tough. Trying to ...now is prßtty rßstrictiva. Tha culvart is about right in hara and, as I say, in hara, I don't know what you'd havß to rip up what's prasantly constructad thara in ordar to construct a culvart through thara. MR. ROBERTS-Statad it saams lika thasa wara thß nßighborhood solutions that Wß wßra kind of hoping to gat soma answars to. 9 --- -./' MR. CARTIER-Stat~d I can s~~ som~body could ~asily paint a sc~nario wh~r~ th~ Town of Qu~~nsbury could b~ar th~ cost of doing som~thing lik~ this. I'm just tossing this out. W~ 'v~ got th~ Qu~~nsbury Economic D~v~lopm~nt Corp. which th~ Town of Qu~~nsbury is v~ry much int~r~st~d in promoting and g~tting off th~ ground. It would improv~ what is a bad situation now and it's not going to g~t b~tt~r by its~lf, it I s going to g~t wors~. It is also not going to just solv~ som~ probl~ms on th~ QEDC prop~rty, it's also going to solv~, I'm assuming h~r~, som~ probl~ms north of th~m and th~ mor~ that d~v~lopm~nt tak~s plac~ on Quak~r Road, which it's going to do, th~ mor~ w~'r~ going to hav~ to look at and consid~r som~ kind of solution to this situation. MR. SCARTELLI-Stat~d to go on~ st~p furth~r, I don I t want to put som~thing in som~body ~ls~s backyard. Th~ approach can b~ tak~n in th~ sam~ light as you tak~ to a traffic situation. You say that if you dump mor~ traffic at an int~rs~ction, you should b~ar part of th~ cost in th~ traffic signals in that int~rs~ction, wh~th~r it's 30 p~rc~nt, 50 p~rc~nt, or what~v~r th~ volum~ that you put into it. Th~ sam~ thing could b~ said h~r~ too. How ar~ you going to institut~ that hgally? MR. CARTIER-Stat~d I'm just working off th~ top of my h~ad h~r~ and trying to find som~ way of bringing this 60 inch culv~rt into r~ality. MR. DYBAS-Stat~d it mak~s s~ns~ that you' r~ going to hav~ to work with th~ Stata and you don It know how r~sponsiv~ th~y'ra going to ba to any kind of suggastions. MR. SCARTELLI-Stat~d you hav~ to m~~t with th~ Stat~ and run ov~r som~ of th~ solutions that can b~ achi~v~d. I'm not saying th~ 60 inch culv~rt is th~ way to go b~caus~ it is v~ry larg~. In ord~r to mak~ a 60 inch culv~rt flow, you hav~ to build up an awful lot<TAPE TURNED) fin~ channa! of that d~ck th~n it's going to spr~ad out in ord~r for it to flow. So, you hav~ to watch which way you go wh~n you d~sign a structur~ such as this. MR. CARTIER-Stat~d I'm not hung up on what th~ particular d~sign is. looking for a way to g~t that bottl~n~ck out. I'm just MR. SCARTELLI-Stat~d you'd hav~ to m~~t with th~m. Som~body would hav~ to. MR. DYBAS-Stat~d chanc~s ar~, you' r~ not looking at an immediata solution to th~ probhm anyway. MR. SCARTELLI-Stated it would hava to b~ studiad on what would ba th~ b~st solution and prasant~d to th~m. MR. ROBERTS-Ask~d, r~fre:sh my mamory again, what ar~ your answars, what ar~ your solutions to this down str~am flooding. W~'v~ talke:d about upstr~am, but thar~'s not much w~ can do about it and you 'v~ got it taken car~ of through your own prop~rty and now w~lr~ concern~d, I think. MR. SCARTELLI-Statad as I say, all tha runoff that wa spok~ about in th~ QEDC Technical Park is handl~d within tha boundarias of it. w~ also had cons id~r~d, in tha discharga of this, what is coming from th~ offsita. Although th~ acr~ag~ of th~ sit~ its~lf is only about, I think it's around 36 acres, th~ra is about 16 acre:s of land that, of coursa, discharge: from off the sita on to this pr~s~nt sit~. Pr~santly from th~ Gle:ns Falls Tachnical Park, th~r~'s a c~rtain amount of flow that comas across th~ boundari~s. Th~ sam~ thing is tru~ with a portion of th~ Claud~ Charl~bois' s parcal. What ar~ solution is, is to try to taka car~ of tha diffarantial in tha d~valoped and undev~lop~d stat~ in the r~tantion ar~as that w~ pr~s~ntly hav~ and try to confin~ th~m in th~r~. Th~ major discharg~ that you' r~ going to b~ g~tting from off sit~, which is north of Dix Av~nua, to provid~ sizes of culv~rts through h~r~, would maan, of cours~, major low~ring of th~ pr~s~nt sit~s that ar~ th~re. MRS. YORK-Stat~d so what you'ra saying, Nick, is you f~~l, with this r~t~ntion ar~a and thes~ b~rms h~re, that you can control and k~~p tha wat~r on your own sita, aach lot can? MR. SCARTELLI-Statad yes. MRS. YORK-Stated in your application you mantioned that the soils, of cours~ we have a d~pth to bedrock problem, but th~ soils are clay and silt. MR. SCARTELLI-Stat~d yes. 10 -..../ MRS. YORK-Askad, is that going to ba a problam with watar laying in thosa barmad araas long pariods of tima bafora baing abla to infiltrata? MR. SCARTELLI-Statad no bacausa thay' ra not going to infiltrata into tha ground, thay'ra just going to ralaasa out. MRS. YORK-Stat~d I s~~. MR. SCARTELLI-Stat~d becausa w~ considarad th~m as th~ typ~ of soil that it is, th~ 30 to 70 p~rc~nt of th~ br~akdown b~tw~an th~ two typ~s of surfac~s, th~ p~rm~abla and th~ roof. MRS. YORK-Ask~d so th~y' r~ going to go right h~ra, through har~, and through th~ roadway? MR. SCARTELLI-Stat~d y~s, through har~ and com~ down, of cours~, into this r~t~ntion basin. MRS. YORK-Stat~d alright, now I s~~. MR. GANNETT-Statad in oth~r words, you'r~ not ralying on infiltration for this. MR. SCARTELLI-Stat~d no. MR. GANNETT-Stat~d just a slow r~laas~ through th~ pip~. MR. SCARTELLI-Stated in oth~r words, when this ar~a h~r~ gets fill~d, th~n of cours~, it would drop down into th~ naxt pond, which is tha long ditch through th~ lowar lot, lot 9. MRS. YORK-Ask~d, but it will not go through it at a rata wh~r~ it will causa any damag~, that's what youlr~ saying? MR. SCARTELLI-Stat~d no. MR. CARTIER-Stat~d som~wh~r~ in all of this, th~r~ I s plans for a daycar~ c~nt~r, is th~r~ not, on ona of thas~ lots? MR. LAPPER-Point~d it out on th~ map. MR. CARTIER-Ask~d, you want to hav~ barm~d wat~r from th~ lots? MR. LAPPER-Stat~d right. MR. CARTIER-Stat~d I'm assuming in a daycar~ c~nt~r, th~r~' s going to b~ som~ outsid~ activiti~s for th~s~ kids? MR. STEVES-Stat~d th~r~ won't b~ any b~rming on th~ lot. h~ is taking into consid~ration a 70 p~rc~nt buildout on with a r~t~ntion in th~ middl~ and down th~ lan~. Nick ~arli~r said that th~ lot and flow~d off MR. SCARTELLI-Stat~d th~r~'ll ba som~ r~tainag~ in h~r~. MR. CARTIER-Stat~d that is my qu~stion. MR. SCARTELLI-Stat~d it should b~ minor. MR. CARTIER-Ask~d how much ar~ w~ talking about, an inch, foot? How d~~p? How big? MR. SCARTELLI-Stat~d I didn't calculat~ ~ach individual lot. MR. CARTIER-Stat~d wall, ok, but you h~ar what my conc~rn is. MR. SCARTELLI-Stat~d y~s, I know what your conc~rn is. I didn't do ~ach individual, in oth~r words, I lump~d th~s~ into th~ middl~. MR. CARTIER-Stat~d I und~rstand that. individual sit~ plans. Again, I'm looking down th~ lina, at MR. ROBERTS-Stat~d or a f~nc~d off ar~a. 11 "-'" MR. GANNETT-Stat~d I think a f~nc~d ar~a is a r~quir~m~nt, anyway, for child car~ c~nt~rs and that n~~ds to b~ work~d in as part of th~ ov~rall sit~ d~sign and if that's not your b~rm~d ar~a, that's a d~sign probl~m. MR. SCARTELLI-Stat~d what th~s~ do a lot of tim~s, of cours~, you try to achi~v~ th~s~ b~rms as a landscaping b~rm mor~ than by just b~rm as a dam b~rm. FRED CHAMPAGNE, PRESIDENT, QUEENSBURY ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT CORP. MR. CHAMPAGNE-Stat~d I don't think w~' r~ talking about 12, 16 inch~s of wat~r lying out th~r~ on th~ front yard. MR. SCARTELLI-Stat~d th~r~ could b~ at tim~s. JAMES LAPANN, AGENT FOR QUEENSBURY ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT CORP. MR. LAPANN-Stat~d y~s, but th~ kids ar~n't going to b~ playing out th~r~. MR. CARTIER-Stat~d th~y might not b~ out th~r~ during a big rainstorm, but is that wat~r going to b~ gon~ within 8 or 10 hours or th~ n~xt day? MR. SCARTELLI-Stat~d no, it will b~ gon~ within 30 minut~s. MR. CARTIER-Stat~d ok. MR. CHAMPAGNE-Ask~d, this is th~ manhol~, I m~an th~r~ will b~ a manhol~ th~r~, Nick, am I corr~ct in saying that? MR. SCARTELLI-Stat~d y~s. MR. CHAMPAGNE-Ask~d, it's a clos~d syst~m that tak~s it through? MR. LAPANN-Stat~d it's wat~r laying on th~ surfac~ for 30 minut~s. MR. SCARTELLI-Ask~d, r~m~mb~r I was t~lling you about an inflow? That is th~ inflow b~tw~~n thr~~, it will t~ll you h~r~, 10 y~ar und~v~lop~d, 10 y~ar d~v~lop~d, 50 y~ar. This is th~ discharg~ of a 12 inch pip~. This is tim~. MR. CARTIER-Ask~d, in minut~s? MR. SCARTELLI-Stat~d this is tim~ in minut~s v~rsus quantity of wat~r. You' r~ talking about wh~n it catch~s up to a 50 yaar, in othar words, as tha storm prograssas, and high intansity storms, you'ra talking about accumulation ovar a 24 hour pariod. Your talking about, possibly, mayba, 100 minutas. MR. ROBERTS-Askad, so prasantly, downstraam, in tha Niagra Mohawk ar~a and parts bayond, thara is soma flooding and soma bonding, I guass, bafora it can gat to tha culvart in soma bad storms. Can Niagra Mohawk accommodata that? MR. SCARTELLI-Statad what happans with the watar is, onca it laaves tha proparty, whan it hits thase araas hare and this area hara, it's going to start spreading out. MR. ROBERTS-Statad it might not be so good if it's spraading in your backyard. MR. SCARTELLI-Statad no, that's right. MR. ROBERTS-Askad, can wa confin~ it to Niagra Mohawk property? I guess not, that's up har~. Th~re's more of a watland aven bayond that isn't thara? MR. SCARTELLI-Statad yas. MR. ROBERTS-Stat~d right in tha middla of that subdivision probably. MR. SCARTELLI-Stated Niagra Mohawk has presently about lOO foot right of way down through h~ra. Now, I'm sura, if you saa this lin~ right hara, that's tha edga of tha presently ponding body of water. Thar~ is, of coursa, a little bit out into this area here. I know there hava baen projacts that I'va bean associatad with whera we have gon~ to Niagra Mohawk and thay hava allowad us to berm that area and use it as a retention. It's just a matt~r of, again, mak,ing contact with them. 12 --' MR. ROBERTS-Stated so this is a backup, possibly, plan. MR. CAIMANO-Stated on Wayne's report, number four, he says the drainage concept proposed is reasonable. Anything that has been said tonight change your mind, reinforce it? MR. GANNETT-Stated no, this is basically the same concept that we had talked about in some previous meetings with Nick and the QEDC people. Basically, there's two drainage issues. One is the local on site retention where each individual lot owner is responsible for not increasing the rate of runoff and the other is the stream that goes through the site, in which case, the developers responsibility is to maintain a free flow of water through that site without hindering the discharge of that or, conversely, with a small pond that's there, there is some small amount of retainage in that pond already, if that pond is to be relocated or removed, as was discussed earlier, then that equivalent capacity should be provided somewhere else on the site so that rate of flow does not increase, but basically, the stream that's going through the site, their responsibility is to maintain, and not obstruct, that flow. MR. ROBERTS-Asked, and you think it's a workable plan? MR. GANNETT-Stated I think the concept is very workable. MR. CAIMANO-Stated but we still have the problem down below, potentially. MR. GANNETT-Stated the ponding due to the backup of the culvert under Warren Street? Yes. MR. CHAMPAGNE-Stated lets look at the givens here, then take a look at that culvert. Do I understand you to say that to have an impact as a result of the size culvert that's in there now, that it's going to take some heavier activity north of us or are we safe, on the QEDC property, with what's there now? Ilm not totally up to date. Nick is talking about $340,000 to do something different down there. If that's what it's going to take to make this property a salable commodity, then, obviously, we might be wasting our time here tonight. I guess I need to clarify that and I haven't talked with Nick regarding that, at this point. Is it going to take another culvert under Warren Street to make this property salable, yes or no? I need to get that clear so that we can get on with the show tonight. If that's our case, then we might as well adjourn. Can you help me with that? MR. GANNETT-Stated 11m not quite sure I understand your question. MRS. YORK-Stated I don't think that we can control what goes on on Warren Street and we can't dictate to DOT or the City of Glens Falls, what should be done there. Am I expressing what everyone is thinking here? MR. CARTIER-Stated what I was trying to get at was, at some point, that culvert is going to have to be dealt with. MR. CAIMANO-Stated not that this group's going to do it. MR. CARTIER-Stated and I think that Nick was bringing out the point, too, that what ever point that is, it's going to be a shared cost. It's going to be Town of Queensbury, QEDC, whatever else is being effected by this situation. MR. GANNETT-Stated but for this Project to continue, it doesn't need to have that culvert built. MR. SCARTELLI-Stated because presently, as you all know, this is the Project of EarlTown. This area in here is a wetland. MR. ROBERTS-Stated you're way upstream, again, now. to what we can do. We realize there's no... as MR. SCARTELLI-Stated depending on what happens to that wetlands, changing its character, then that's another deal. MRS. YORK-Stated but they have to live with the same rules as you guys. MR. CAIMANO-Stated theoretically, Lee, this is the worst scenario, because whatever development happens from here, we have control over it and we can squeeze it down. So the worst case scenario is right now. 13 --' MRS. YORK-Statad yas. MR. ROBERTS-Statad I guass thara is soma mora land batwaan your land and Warran Straat. MR. GANNETT-Statad that araa ponds now and that's going to continua to pond until tha ultimata solution is dona, corracting tha culvart siza on Warran Straat. MR. CARTIER-Statad down tha lina, what I anticipata happaning is that thara' s so much davalopmant north of you with an incraasa in drainaga, that you guys ara looking at a 32 acra laka on your proparty. 11m baing axtramist hara, but what I'm saying is that at soma point bafora that happans, that culvart' s going to hava to ba takan cara of. MR. CAIMANO-Statad Laa is saying that bacausa of tha actions that could ba takan by this Board, tha worst casa scanario is right now bacausa this Board can provida that no mora watar gats off that proparty, in fact, maka it lass. So worst casa scanario is right now, bafora anything's davalopad. MR. SCARTELLI-Statad lat ma say ona thing, and I'm not going to throw tha cart and tha whaal, that land has not dischargad its full, maximum capabilitias, tha land north. I'va yat to saa a 50 yaar storm. I'va yat to saa a 100 yaar storm. I don't know what ona would look lika. I'va dasignad for thasa things, but I'va yat to saa tham. I'va saan storms of vary high intansitias for a vary short pariod, but whan your talking a 100 yaar storm, your talking, in this araa hara, of somawhara about 5 inchas in 24 hours. MR. ROBERTS-Statad but that watar would ba ratainad north of Quakar Road and tha Rosancrantz swamp. MR. SCARTELLI-Statad a good parcantaga of it would. MR. ROBERTS-Statad limitad by tha siza of tha culvart on Quakar Road, which you can taka cara of. MR. SCARTELLI-Statad yas, by tha siza of tha culvart. You can only gat so much through thasa culvarts, so you'ra going to ba rastricting it. MR. CHAMPAGNE-Statad you' va got a lot of haadwatar up abova bafora it avan gats to Warran Straat. Now wa'ra talking about tha top of tha Adirondack Mountains. MR. STEVES-Statad in all tha yaars that tha City's had troubla with tha undarpass and it took Paul Naylor to go in thara and put tha barm in, to halp tha City out. I havan It saa tha Stata coma forward, yat, and offar any solution on thair and and thay' ra tha onas that craatad tha problam bacausa thay rastrictad tha flow, fraa flow of watar and salt to through that canal. MR. DYBAS-Statad bacausa, you'll find that tha philosophy of tha Stata is, tha Stata doas not act, tha Stata ~acts, that's why it takas so long. MR. STEVES-Statad no, I undarstand. Nick raally, probably has a handla on that bacausa ha workad for tha City for yaars and has that problam himsalf. MR. SCARTELLI-Statad in my tanura with tha City, wa had ona flooding on tha undarpass sinca 1978. Tha ona that thay just had was in, about, 1987 or 88. Wa always saa that 10 yaar fraquancy, about 5 and 10 yaars, that's why I say, it saams to ba that cycla. I'm not saying that that is it, but it may ba that thaylll navar hava anothar ona, dua to that barm. Ona stap forward, did thay avar build down thara, that is, an approvad subdivision, than, of coursa, that changas tha charactar of that araa also. MR. CAIMANO-Statad that brings up tha quastion I was just asking Dick. What rasponsibilitias doas this Board hava ragarding that alraady approvad subdivision? MR. STEVES-Askad, what approvad subdivision? MR. CAlMANO-Statad tha ona that's south of this. MR. STEVES-Statad no, that's not an approvad subdivision. MR. ROBERTS-Statad it's a vary old ona. watar. I don't know whathar that would hold 14 '- --- MRS. YORK-Stated they haven't initiated any construction or work on it in 12 months, so they're null and void, right? over MR. ROBERTS-Stated it's been 20 years, 30 years. MRS. YORK-Stated alright, we're safe. MR. ROBERTS-Stated it's a littb, dinky lot. is not valid. I think probably that subdivision MR. SCARTELLI-Stated I think it's fifty foot lots. MS. CORPUS-Asked, is that Uncas Street? MR. CHAMPAGNE-Stated Braydon subdivision or something like that. MS. CORPUS-Stated oh, the Braydons. It's 18 months anyway. MR. SCARTELLI-Stated a lot of them were paper streets down there. MR. CAIMANO-Stated so that's it, right, Karla? MS. CORPUS-Asked, are we in the Town or are we in the City? MR. ROBERTS-Stated no, it's in the Town. MRS. YORK-Stated it's on Niagra Mohawk property, too. MS. CORPUS-Stated the only probbm I see is the paper street probbm and other things like that, as far as doing anything on that. MR. ROBERTS-Stated I guus we had a high flying idea that, perhaps, this was the time for some cooperation between neighboring property owners and the Town and City and maybe solve some of these long range problems. I guess, however, we've got to back away from that at the present time and, probably, we're not going to have a whole lot of complaints from the City because the City would like very much, I'm sure, to have us cooperate so that one of their major employers can expand into the Town of Queensbury. MR. CHAMPAGNE-Stated you have to keep in mind that we traded him, two years ago was it when you did expand, so we have shared Valcour with the City. They have appreciated that and we allowed that to happen so it's their turn in the box. MR. ROBERTS-Stated fair enough. Do you think, Wayne, to get over the storm water management plan hurdle for Sketch Plan, do you think we can go forward? MR. GANNETT-Stated I think the basic concepts they've outlined are fine. There'll be some more detail presented in the Preliminary Plan, but that's usually the way it is with subdivisions. MR. ROBERTS-Stated unfortunately, we're running out of time for all of these things and you were delivered the Preliminary and Final Plans today and I'm sure you haven't had a chance to digest them. This all leaves us in a bit of an awkward position, I think, trying to be as cooperative as we can. MR. GANNETT-Stated I did manage to digut the Sketch Plan and there's no real prob bms . MR. ROBERTS-Stated points out, I think, question was whether to hold the preliminary and the final at the beginning of our next two meetings or at the end and I'm opting for the end in hopes that the press has gone home and we can keep this thing as quiet as possible. One other question, then, beyond storm water, I guess, can we agree with this traffic? MRS. YORK-Stated I just have one question. How many lots? MR. SCARTELLI-Stated there's actually 8 lots. MRS. YORK-Stated 8 lots, ok. MR. ROBERTS-Stated that raises a question. There is going to be no connection to your new road from lot 9, from Valcour IS. They're going to strictly build south? 15 -../ MR. SCARTELLI-Statad ye.s. This is tha davalopmant of lot 9. MRS. YORK-Statad maybe. wa should gat into that during tha sita plan. I raally hata to confusa any issuas at this point in tima. This Board has baan vary ganarous having a spacial maating anyway. MR. CARTIER-Askad, wa'ra talking about looking at praliminary at our naxt ragular maating. MR. ROBERTS-Statad yas. MR. CARTIER-Askad, and final the. maating bayond that. MR. ROBERTS-Statad that's right. ~R. CARTIER-Askad, thara ara no daadlina problams, in tarms of gatting stuff in? MRS. YORK-Statad thay missad tha daadlina. So what tha Chairman has agraad to ~o is se.t up a spacial maating immadiataly following tha ragular maating, so that wa can handla this lagally. ~R. ROBERTS-State.d this is what tha lagal dapartmant has said wa could do, hoops ~wa hava to go through. MR. CARTIER-Askad, wa ara, in affact, waiving submission daadlinas for this projact? MR. ROBERTS-Statad wall, wa gava tham axtansions for that bacausa of tha act of God in tha cancaling of our maating bacausa of tha storm and now thosa things ara in. Whathar thay'ra complata, I guass wa kaap our fingars crossad that mayba thara are.n't going to ba anything significant that naads to ba changad. MRS. YORK-Statad I do hava ona quastion. Dua to tha anginaaring commants, Nick, I don't know if thasa hava baan addrassad on your praliminary and final submissions, will you allow QEDC to maka an addandum to thair submission at this tima? MR. ROBERTS-Statad I think wa'ra going to hava to if wa'ra going to hold any kind of a daadlina and follow through with our cooparativanass in hopas thara won It ba anything vary significant to changa. MR. CAIMANO-Askad, do you hava any problam ralatad to things on hara, Nick? MR. SCARTELLI-Statad no, I donlt hava any problams. I can addrass tham all. MR. CARTIER-Statad just down tha lina kind of stuff hara. Whan you sat spacial ~tings, I think you should also sat spacific submission daadlinas for applicants v/who ara raquasting to coma in so wa can avoid soma of tha kinds of problams wa'va run into hara. MR. ROBERTS-Statad it's probably a good idaa. I think, to soma axtant, wa did. I think wa did and wa thought at that tima that thay could gat in undar tha ragular daadlina, but bacausa of tha storm and cancaling maatings, things got a littla muddy. Actually, we. cancallad two maatings which would hava givan tham a graatar opportunity for some. of thasa datailad changas. May ba wa should have. soma mora quastions bafora wa gat into daciding whe.the.r or not wa ara, basically willing to waiva. MR. CAlMANO-Statad ona mora tima, did I haar that you hava no problams with tha any lattars on tha Fabruary 15th notas. MR. SCARTELLI-Statad no, I can addrass all of tham. MRS. YORK-State.d at praliminary thara'll ba tima. MR. CARTIER-Statad tha only thing I want to be.caraful of is that wa don't gat to a point, at final, whara we.' ra giving a final approval with a whola bunch of stipulations to it. I think, by tha tima wa raach final, all of this stuff should ba cle.are.d up. So wa have. a nice., claan, claar,..final approval. If that maans postponing soma dacision making on tha Board's part, I think that's somathing wa ought to just faca right up front thara. 16 -../ MR. ROBERTS-Stat~d I think that's tru~. I think with that sam~ thought in mind, I' d lik~ to ~v~n tak~ a quick look at th~ sit~ plan tonight and s~~ if th~r~' s som~ stumbling blocks that w~ might, w~'d b~ doing it informally I pr~sum~, but that also could b~ a d~lay~d factor as far as Valcour's conc~rn~d. MRS. YORK-Stat~d actually I would lik~ to discuss it with you a littl~ mor~ thoroughly, Nick. MR. CAIMANO-Stat~d Dick, I think w~' r~ put in th~ position, th~n, of doing som~ work that w~ don't want to do, ar~n't w~? MR. ROBERTS-Stat~d it could b~. w~ all got th~ sit~ plan maps. I'v~ charg~d around th~ prop~rty and look~d at it and I'v~ got my f~~lings about it. MRS. PULVER-Stat~d I think w~ ought to takè it onè stèp at a tim~. MR. SCARTELLI-Stat~d to go along with Pèt~, I '11 mak~ èVèry ~ffort to mak~ surè that ~v~ryon~ of thos~, that th~r~ isn't anything hanging out th~r~. MR. ROBERTS-Askad, ar~ w~ in agr~am~nt, th~n, that wa will, in fact, allow that add~ndum to th~s~? MR. CAIMANO-Stat~d y~s. MR. CARTIER-Ask~d, ar~ you comfortabl~ with th~ traffic study in tarms of th~ way it was don~, th~ basic scanario? MRS. YORK-Stat~d I'm going to look at it furth~r. MR. SCARTELLI-Statad in th~ n~xt day or so, I could maka sur~ I r~vis~ it. As I say, I did it ~arly bacaus~ I want~d to gat it out of tha way and th~n wa chang~d th~ 12 to th~ 8. MR. ROBERTS-Statad wall, that should mak~ it mora consarvativ~, batt~r. MR. SCARTELLI-Statad it is cons~rvativa. In fact, th~ figur~s, tha p~ak flows would chang a consid~rably b~caus~ of tha fact that all of th~ amploy~as for lot 9 would now b~ ~xiting on to Warr~n Str~at. So I'd ba taking out 15 acr~s. MR. ROBERTS-Stat~d traffic do~sn't saam lik~ a hug~ probl~m to ma, but would you f~~l mora comfortabla if wa brought in gr~atar ~ngin~~ring than this? MR. GANNETT-Statad I hav~ no problam. MR. CARTIER-Ask~d, so w~'ra looking at a sp~cial m~ating aftar our r~gular maatings? MR. ROBERTS-Stat~d yas. (TAPE TURNED) MR. CAIMANO-Askad, why ar~ w~ making it a spacial maating? MR. ROBERTS-Stat~d lègally, I guass th~y t~ll us that wa hava to do it that way b~caus~ th~y missad th~ submission d~adlina. Wa ~xt~nd~d th~ filing daadlina b~caus~ of circumstancas and that kind of r~quir~s us to go for sp~cial. MR. CAIMANO-Ask~d, it's not just to put it at tha ~nd of th~ ag~nda or anything lik~ that? MR. ROBERTS-Stat~d can't do that. MS. CORPUS-Stat~d ag~nda control law. MR. ROBERTS-Stat~d w~ hav~ to clos~ th~ ma~ting and opan anoth~r on~. W~'v~ don~ that a coupla of timas. MR. LAPANN-Ask~d, wh~n is that m~~ting? MR. ROBERTS-Statad th~ 3rd and 4th Tuasdays of this month. MS. CORPUS-Askad, I'm trying to figura out, what's tha 3rd and 4th Tu~sday? 17 '---- ---- MR. CAIMANO-Statßd thß 13th and thß 20th. MS. CORPUS-Statßd so it is nßxt Wßßk. MR. CAIMANO-Askßd, it is thß 13th, isn't it? MR. CARTIER-Statßd I gUßss, just to go on rßcord hßrß too, so thßrß arß no possiblß misundßrstandings, latßly sitß plans havß bßßn morß than onß shot dßals. MR. ROBERTS-Statßd that's why I was wondßring if Wß could look at this a littlß bit ahßad of timß. MR. CAlMANO-Statßd thß 20th and 27th of thß month arß thß 3rd and 4th TUßsdays. MOTION TO APPROVE SKETCH PLAN FOR SUBDIVISION 1-1990, Introducßd by Pßtßr Cartißr who movßd for its adoption, sßcondßd by Nicholas Caimano: With thß stipulation that total numbßr of lots bß spßcifißd. Thßrß is agrßßmßnt to postponß considßration of thß traffic study until prßliminary application and that commßnts from Enginßßring Staff and Planning Staff bß addrßssßd at Prßliminary. Duly adoptßd this 5TH day of Fßbruary, 1990, by thß following votß: AYES: Mr. Hagan, Mr. Cartißr, Mrs. Pulvßr, Mr. Dybas, Mr. Caimano, Mr. Robßrts NOES: NONE On motion mßßting was adjournßd. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED, Richard Robßrts, Chairman 18 F)yE (Opy TOWN OF QUEENSBURY Planning Department "NOTE TO FILE" Mrs. Lee A. York, Senior Planner Mr. John S. Goralski, Planner Mr. Stuart G. Baker, Assistant Planner Date: February 5, 1990 By: Lee A. York Area Variance Use Variance - Sign Variance == Interpretation X Subdi.uïon: X Sketch, _ Preliminary, - Site Plan Review - - Petition for a Change of Zone - Freshwater Wetlands Permit Final Other: Application Number: Subdivision No. 1-1990 Applicant's Name: Oueensbury Economic Development Corp.._ Meeting Date: Februarv 5. 1990 *****************.*****...***.**.****.***.*..***.********.*****......*.......*....***......* The applicant is requesting to subdivide 32.3 acres into 8 industrial lots. The land to be subdivided is located on Progress Boulevard and Dix Avenue adjacent to the City of Glens Falls. The site has some limitations that have been discussed in the past. These include a shallow depth to bedrock, and serious drainage problems. The site is part of a large natural drainageway. The property abuts Niagara Mohawk property to the south. QEDC has a drainage easement onto Niagara Mohawk property. The Board should verify the number of lots anticipated in the subdivisioh. The traffic reports identify the subdivision as 12 parcels while the map and application state the number at 9. ;,:,'1, I have not had an opportunity to analyze the traffic study and would like the opportunity to further comment on it at the Preliminary Stage of review when the SEQRA analysis is done. Our engineer will address the sketch drainage plan. LA Y /sed _ _~_...._.n..._,. _~_ '~ - -- RIST-FROST ASSOCIATES, P,C, CONSULTING ENGINEERS 21 BAY STREET POST OFFICE BOX 838 GLENS FALLS, NY 12801 518· 793-4141 February 5, 1990 RFA #89-5000-520 Mrs. Lee York, Senior Planner Town of Queensbury Office Building Bay and Haviland Roads Queensbury, NY 12804 Ref: Queensbury Economic Development Corporation Subdivision 20-1989 - Sketch Plan Dear Mrs. York: We have reviewed the Sketch Plan submission received today for the above-referenced project. The design concepts presented are generally in accordance with those presented at the January 19 and 24, 1990 meetings with QEDC and Town representatives. Specific comments which can be addressed in the preliminary and final submission are as follows: 1. When the existing stream crossing Lot 9 is relocated, a drainage easement of adequate width should be shown on the subdivision pl at. 2. A IO-foot separation should be shown between water andisewer on the new road, since the sewer grades indicate that the water main cannot be placed at least 18-inches higher than the sewer for a significant length of line. 1 3. The ins ide edge of new roads A and B where they intersect Progress Boulevard, should be designed to minimize the potential for ponding of stormwater runoff. 4. The drainage concept proposed is reasonable. Drainage calcula- tions should be included at preliminary stage for the retention area in Progress Boulevard to account for the runoff from the new roadway. We understand that stormwater calculations for onsite runoff and the stream to be conveyed through Lot 9 will be a part of that lot's Site Plan Review. @ GLENS FALLS, NY' LACONIA. NH · ..--- --..-------.----.----- --- ~LÍ -- Mrs. Lee York, Senior Planner Town of Queensbury February 5, 1990 RFA #89-5000-520 Page 2 5. The traffic report should clarify whether peak hour traffic includes Lot 9, and information on existing Dix Avenue peak hour traffic levels. Very truly yours, :aloST AS ° ~¡(~nett, P.E. Mana~ng Project Engineer WG:mg P.C. '1.