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1991-02-14 SP / --../ QUEENS BURY TOWN BOARD SPECIAL MEETING FEBRUARY 14TH, 1991 THESE ARE NOT OFFICIALLY ADOPTED MINUTES AND ARE SUBJECT TO BOARD AND STAFF REVISIONS. REVISIONS WILL APPEAR ON THE FOLLOWING MONTHS MINUTES (IF ANY) AND WILL STATE SUCH APPROVAL OF SAID MINUTES. -- CJ,IEENSBURY TOlIN BOARD MEETING SPECIAL MEETING FEBRUARY 14TH. 1991 3:00 P.M. TOlIN BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT STEVE BORGOS, CHAIRMAN LYNN POTENZA RON MONTESI BETTY MONAHAN PLANNING BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT PETER CARTIER, CHAIRMAN CAROL PULVER, SECRETARY NICHOLAS CAIMANO JAMES MARTI N TOWN ATTORNEY-PAUL DUSEK SENIOR PLANNER-LEE YORK MR. BORGOS-I've got a question and I've got a comment. The vast majority of Planning. Zoning kinds of things. There was, a week or so ago, an article, a very large article, I believe it was the Glens Falls Business Review with Steve Sutton. I don't know if you saw it. It was a big half page or two thirds of a page filled with comments about Planning and Zoning kinds of questions. Then of course there was the first meeting of the Queensbury Business Association that two or three hundred people attended and I attended. I attended also the second meeting. I'm a member of the organization, not as Town Supervisor, but as a private business person in the Town of Queensbury, but obviously everybody looks over and here's the Supervisor. So I wear a couple of hats. Topics of concern most commonly brought to my attention are time, money, and frustrations. People are concerned with the time it's taking from Day One of an idea they have until conclusion. They're concerned about the fact that it's costi ng a lot of money to go through our process and they're frustra ted because of these thi ngs. As I talked to somebody yesterday about this kind of a problem and because of my background in business, people are saying to me. Steve, I get an idea that I want to be in business and then I decide, heck, I'll open a month from now and then we run into all your regulations. Well. they are our regulations, Town regulations. They're voluminous. but from the time someone gets an idea and says, this looks pretty good and does an investigation and prepares a business plan. then goes to find a location for that, then goes to arrange for financing and tries to find the proper people to put together an organization to get something done and then retain some engineers if that's necessary, under a particular circumstance, and then decides they're going to open and all of a sudden finds out that we've got our rules and regulations and they've got to follow rules and regulations, they could already have three or four months in the project before they hit our rules and they're chomping at the bit. They've spent some time. They've spent a lot of money. They're ready to go. All of a sudden, the rules are there and they could be faced with at least a month delay. by the time they submit by a deadline and get on an agenda, perhaps two months or three months or perhaps longer and these are the concerns they're sharing with me. I've explained to members of the public that when it comes to certain rules, regulations, and laws, the Town Board ~ change those if it's appropriate. We work under a guideline of a Master Plan. We put together Rules and Regulations that took effect October 1st '88, based on a Citizens Advisory Committee review which also was subject to many public meetings, a number of public hearings, went through the entire process, but we'll all remember that when we accepted that. we said this is a living, breathing document, from time to time it's going to have to be changed as we grow. as times change. So, we have. as you know, gone through a couple of zoning changes. We're proposing some amendments to the Ordinances. What you saw the other night were not Town Board proposals. We haven't even looked at those, officially, yet. Those are proposals from a number of people. Hopefully, we'll look at those fairly soon, but those are things the Town Board can respond to. Other types of questions related to policies and the submission dates and the sequence of agendas and what does or doesn't get done at the Planning Board meetings or in the Planning Process is where we get into a very grey area and this is really the reason for asking for this meeting is to try to delineate, first according to law and then if there are any unresolved areas, according to law. by some kind of agreement what roles the Town Board should be playing. the Planning Board should be playing, and the Planning Department. We have three sets of groups. here, all impacting on this same situation. I look at this, and I've come to the conclusion that we really have a traditionally authority responsibility concern. Who does what and who is 1 ega 11 y allowed to do what, a very typi ca 1 a rea. I t happens in all organizations. It's happened here, only right now the people or the individuals involved are not these three groups. generally. but rather private citizens or members of this community, homeowners and business owners. Homeowners I've had just as much questions from as business owners. I've got a couple of specific examples and pretty soon we'll get open to discussion. You've taken some recent actions to release the reports of the. and the recommendations of the different groups the Monday before the Tuesday evening meeting of the Board. That's one of the things people have been concerned about and we've had the department head meeting that would identify 1 '---' specific problems. The engineers have been present for that. Those problems. .!. thought. really truly thought were then being relayed to the project sponsors and so they could respond to them. Well, I found out that they really didn't see those until they got to a Planning Board meeting and then they said, gee, we can't respond because they won't take any new information that night. We've got to come back again. So, that's one of the concerns. We've got to find out, is that a Planning Board or is that Planning Department. We've got another concern with the level of change that may be accepted by the Planning Board at a meeting. In all probability. that's going to end up being your decision, but we've got to find out. If it's simply adding a piece of sidewalk or a culvert pipe, is that a big change or a little change? Can the Board condition some things or do you absolutely insist they come back for a month later with that delay? Another question, who approves press releases? This was funny. It came up the other day. Lee brought it up. We have a regulation, for Town offices, that anything going out of this building in the form of a press release should come through my office, at least I know what's gone. Kathleen is a professional writer and she can rewrite things if necessary as they go, from these departments. but as I read through, what was being talked about was a Planning Board decision and I sent it back to Lee and I said, well, in this case. I don't want to be responsible for speaking for the Planning Board. MR. CAIMANO-Excuse me. I don't know what you're talking about. Does anybody else know what he's talking about? What are you talking about? MR. BORGOS-This is about the change which would permit the release of the information a day early. MR. CAIMANO-I don't know what you're talking about. MR. CARTIER-I have no idea what that refers to. MRS. PULVER-That was in the newspaper you mean? MRS. YORK-No. I told him about what we should do. I haven't had a chance to talk to the Board. MR. BORGOS-No. I sent it back to Lee three or four days ago and asked her to give it back to Peter. MR. CAIMANO-So it's nothing that's been released to the public? MRS. YORK-No. MR. CAIMANO-Okay. MRS. YORK-But I felt that it would be good to get some publicity out regarding your change. MR. CAIMANO-Fine, okay. I thought it was something that was sent to the public. MR. BORGOS-And it should be, and it's a good idea, but I just wonder if my office is appropriately responsible to do that. more than happy to, but am I treading on the Planning Board's toes if I were to do something like that because really that was your decision and maybe it should go out that way. They're housekeeping kinds of things. Another discussion, the Planning Department was hired by the Town Board. The Planning Department is paid by the Town Board. The Town Board provides the office staff and all the equipment and everything else for the Planning Department. but who sets the work schedule for the Planning Department? We as Town Board feel that we do, but we're finding out more and more that maybe the Planning Board feels that they're working for you. They should be working for all of us. It's hard. though, if we get into a concern about where to draw that line. to draw the 1 ine. That's why I've asked our attorney to be here to 1 i sten to some of these concerns and maybe give us some advice. If the law is clear, great. If the law isn't clear and will permit either way, well then let's discuss it and come up with some answers. I'm just anxious to get on with the process. If I'm in business, I'll make all the decisions I can make and get on to the next thing. I get frustrated when we can't move to new areas. In the area of engineering review, this is something that's come up in the last couple of days. I've gone back to check the resolutions. As best I can see, and I don't know that the Planning Board's aware of this. the Town Board. by resolution. authorized the Town Supervisor, the Town Attorney. and the Senior Planner. Lee York, to retain the services of Rist-Frost Associates or if appropriate, Clough Harbour. if we get into certain specialized environmental things, from time to time as necessary for specific things. We did this because we knew we were going to need engineering review for some of the projects coming before the Board, and the language specifically says. from time to time. What has come to me. again mostly through public concerns, is that some engineering bills are in the range of $30 or $60 or $80 which represents not more than an hour of engineering time and we're wondering, if it was such a small thing. why did it go to the engineers? Our intent never was for small, little, everday kinds of things to go to the engineers and it certainly was never the intent for all projects to go to the engineers. Lee explained to us at committee meeting the other day that not all projects do go. I'm wondering what the criteria would be and, again, it's an internal thing. Normally, we would say to any other department head, bring them in to a Town Board meeting and say, what are your critieria for doing this, so that would take care of it. I want to be very careful, here, though. we don't tread on the toes of the Planning Board if we're giving instructions to our employees that here are the criteria and for some of you to come back and say, we don't like 2 --- those. We don't want to have a fight. We don't want to have a war. We just want to find out who does what and where. Two more little items. the process itself, how can it be done faster. That is not to imply in any way to reduce our concern for the environment, to reduce our concern for the Town of Queensbury. How can we speed things up? I know you've come through with an Expedited Matters Process. Lee has indicated that you've determined that isn't going to work. MRS. YORK-No, I sa i d it wasn't the concept that we ori gi na 11 y thought it woul d be because we have to open the public hearing, close the public hearing, do all those kind of things. So, therefore. having it like the County scenario is not possible, which was the original concept. MR. BORGOS-Okay. I want to talk about that in a minute. Are you saying it's not possible under the law? MRS. YORK-Yes. MR. BORGOS-Okay. We'll get back to that then. MRS. MONAHAN-I was there when the attorney gave them that decision. MR. BORGOS-Okay. The other item I had in this area was, if the process is difficult. and it's difficult on you, as well as it's difficult on us and the people going through the process. mostly because it's repetitious, because you have to come back for two or three meetings and people have to bring their consultants back again and their attorneys and it adds up. Who's authorized to change the process? Can the Town Board do it? Can the Planning Board do it? MR. CAIMANO-Can I ask you a question? MR. BORGOS-Sure. MR. CAIMANO-Do you, personally, find this unusual? Do you feel that the Town of Queensbury is deliberately doing something that no one else, as a legislative body, does? MR. BORGOS-I think the key word there is "deliberately". I'm not as intimately familiar with other Towns as I am with Queensbury and getting to be more so. I don't, very honestly, like to even have to worry about the whole Planning Process. I've got too many other things going on. So, we have a process send the Planning Department on to the Planning Board and let it go. I generally don't hear about any of these projects or any of these problems until after they've been through most if not all the process. There are just too many other things during the day. I can't get involved with it. I read the minutes several weeks later usually. I'm not thinking anybody's deliberately doing anything. All I'm saying is that the response from the public is at the point where. a number of people have said. I just completed a project and I will never, ever do another thing in Queensbury, to other people who've said, the reason I didn't build in Queensbury was because the process takes so long and costs so much money and these are good projects. I've gone out to look at them and, you know, they got through the Board and they got through the process, but that kind of an attitude bothers me because that's permeating the atmosphere. That's exactly what's been mentioned at the Queensbury Business Association Meetings and it's been brought up, very bluntly, by a whole bunch of people. I mean. person after person, it's like giving testimony at some kind of religious ceremony. I'm sitting there and they're coming up allover the room. A lot of the them I've never heard about before, but the public's hearing about it and all they're hearing is the negative side when very honestly, I think there's a lot of positive going on. I think there are a lot of good things to be said. good things about the process, good things about most of our regulations. I'm just anxious to serve the public as we can. If they complain about a road problem. we go to Paul Naylor and we can take care of the road problem. If there's a dead horse somewhere, we'll take care of that. Cats are being mistreated, we'll take care of those problems. Sewer, water we handle it, but I personallY feel frustrated in not being able to resolve these issues or, in many cases. not indeed knowing what the rules are to handle some of these issues and trying not to let anybody think they're being stepped on because certainly we're not trying to do that. The last concern is one that, and I really hate to bring it up in public. but I've got no other way to talk. I've been trying to talk to Peter about this. Peter indicated concern in his letter that, apparently, someone is trying to politicize the planning issues and bend the planning process to the will of a narrow segment of the Town. That took me by shock and I certainly was anxious to hear what is meant by that and find out what's going on, 1f. something is going on, or if this is a perception or what because I'd like to clear that up and if I can't talk privately, I've got to talk publicly about it and so what I'd like to do. we've eliminated most of my initial remarks, talk about, maybe the first thing that would have some meat to it, the authority/responsibility problem, who does what and who's legally allowed to do what. MR. CARTIER-Could I go through and address your comments in the order that you laid them out and I'll try to do this very fast, with the exception of doing the last one first? MR. BORGOS-Sure. MR. CARTIER-All I was trying to establish, and perhaps I was not as diplomatic in saying it as I could have been. 3 '---" MR. BORGOS-I couldn't talk to you to find out what you meant because you wouldn't meet with me. MR. CARTIER-Okay. I was simply trying to establish the fact that there should be a clear line of demarcation between political process and planning process and that I was, in effect, kind of drawing that line. Now, whether or not I did it in an appropriate way or a way that made you feel uncomfortable, obviously, but that's basically what I was referring to. I tried to clear that up in the second letter I wrote you. I guess I didn't. MR. BORGOS-You don't have any specifics? MR. CARTIER-Well, maybe I do. I don't know if you'd call this specific or not. but let me preface some comments and other members of the Planning Board please jump in at any time. I think what's going on out there is that there are some strongly held opinions being offered frequently and sometimes what happens is when opinions are said often enough, they take on the aura of being fact. When we start looking at some of the concerns that are being raised and we start digging some facts out. the facts, at least to me, suggest some different things and maybe I could get at that with some of the stuff that we're talking about here. Your first item had to do with how long it takes somebody and you mentioned lining the place up and so on and so forth. Understand that our time doesn't become involved. We don't become involved in that time line until they walk in the door of the Planning Department. MR. BORGOS-Right. MR. CARTIER-So, that's the only thing we have any control over. that segment of time. MR. BORGOS-But in their minds, they've been on this project for X number of months. Even though you haven't seen it yet, they've been working on this and they're all set to go into business until they hit this process. MR. CARTIER-But I don't, and the Board doesn't have any control over that portion. MR. BORGOS-Right. MR. CARTIER-The only control we have is over that segment of time that they wal k in the door and they fill out an application and that starts the process. That's the only time segment, time line that we any control over, okay. I can appreciate the frustration, but we have nothing to do with it. MR. BORGOS-Well, I just wanted to give you the background of why they're feeling so intense when they get to us. MR. CARTIER-Let me just finish one other thing. We did some nosing around with other Planning Departments in here and let me just throw some numbers at you. First of all. ours were 73 percent of the applications get through in the first meeting with us. Sixteen percent, these numbers are off a little bit, in two meetings and nine or ten percent in more than two meetings. Lake George: major subdivisions take two meetings, minor subdivisions one meeting. site plans two meetings. Saratoga Springs: 60 percent get through with one month, 30 percent two months, 10 percent three or more months. Latham: minimum of 18 months for any review, which is substantially longer. Clifton Park: two to four months, subdivisions six months. Guilderland: Site plans, three to four months. minor subdivisions three to four months, major subdivision one to one and a half years. MRS. MONAHAN-I might mention that those last ones that your mentioning here are communities that are more equivalent to Queensbury because of their growth rate. MR. CARTIER-Okay. but my point, here, is that here's some facts and the way I see the facts is, we come out Number One. in terms of speed of approval, if you want that. MR. CAIMANO-If I can just add something. Peter. MR. CARTIER-Go ahead. MR. CAIMANO- The fact of the matter is that since you and several people have questioned it, we have even tried to make that better and are taking steps and thus I think. if I can jump back to Peter's first comment and your last comment. the question that comes up about the politicizing and that's the fact that while we are attempting, as volunteer civilians, to do just what you want, you seem to be out there feeding the fire of innuendo and not saying. wait a minute. What's the real facts here, and going and ask the Chairman, what are the facts here? 4 -- MR. BORGOS-Well. get specific of how I'm feeding the fire. MR. CAIMANO-The first 15 minutes of your talk. I didn't hear any facts of what you were saying. You were saying. You mentioned a lot of people. You mentioned a lot of things and then Peter's giving you the facts of the matter and the facts of the matter are that it doesn't take all that long to get through it once it gets to the Planning Board. The facts of the matter are, we're trying to do something about it and the facts of the matter are, we're Number One in the area of moving things through. MRS. PULVER-Well, wait a minute. I want to say something. These facts are great. Where did you get these facts? MR. CARTIER-Lee and John called these Planning Departments. MRS. PULVER-Okay. but. and the other thing and not to defend anybody, but those facts don't mean anything to anybody coming in front of our Planning Board. MR. CAIMANO-Of course not. MRS. PULVER-They don't care. They want to build in Queensbury. Let's not even pay any attention to that. Let's go back to the beginning which is. what can we do to make our process better to make the people in our area happy. MRS. POTENZA-Right, because what you're doing, it's becoming a them and us when you're talking about what they've done, and that's one thing I certainly didn't want this meeting to turn into. MR. BORGOS-No, and we're not going to let it. MRS. MONAHAN-I think Peter has done a very good job and I will tell you why and I have been a little steamed. I went to the Business Association Meeting and I listened with an open mind. I also saw the press releases. I saw information that was misinformation and misinterpretation and by somebody taking this misinformation and misinterpretation and running with it like gospel is not doing this Town a service and I think what Peter is trying to do is to clear the record, get the true information out there, the true interpretation so that our work is being based on facts, not on conjecture or misinterpretation misinformation and I think what he is doing is laying a ground work to do what you say you would like to do. MR. MARTIN-Through my profession, I encounter these types of things every day and I encounter them in a cross section of communities and I encounter them with a cross section of clients both public and private and it is something that you see all the time. that the private developer will overlook things. He is anxious and that is a connecting them with this type of business and so therefore I think it's unfair to say, these people are so anxious and they want to do things. Sure they are, and it's just not in Queensbury that they overlook things. It's the nature of the beast that they are going to overlook things. They're anxious. They overlook components to their financing, what's necessary and so on and so forth and I don't think you can dismiss the comparisons to other like communities because we are all under a New York State Law and you can only make it so short. You can only make it so good. MR. BORGOS-Okay. Again, right from the very beginning, we said we don't want a confrontation. We're all part of a team. I'm just conveying to you. and I have to do it in a public meeting, the perceptions that are coming to me personally and are being projected at public meetings and it comes back and usually it says, the Town Board. Some people say, I went to the Town Board, well they never went to the Town Board. They went to the Planning Board or they went to the Town Office Building as it turns out, but it always says Town Board. I just want to let .x2!!. know what's happening out there, some of which you probably are aware of already and saying it's .Q!!!:. problem. It's our combined problem to respond. Now if the response is that, folks, we're doing a good job and it's the fastest you can possibly get and it's great service, so be it. Then we've got to find out what. the people who are raising the objections, do they have a reason. There were at least 15 at the first meeting and at least 10 or 15 that I heard at the second meeting and they changed times, so I didn't hear the whole meeting. Are those people making up what they're saying? What are the problems. MR. CAIMANO-But nobody knows, we can't answer. MRS. MONAHAN-But Steve, they're also assuming that everyone of those projects that they're talking about we're projects that should have gone forward. MR. BORGOS-I didn't say that. Betty. MRS. MONAHAN-Well, that sounds like what you're doing. MR. BORGOS-No. All I'm saying is that people are standing up and saying a lot of negative things. MRS. MONAHAN-That may be. 5 , "'--' '-./ MR. BORGOS-And I can't respond to them because the things that they're dealing with, I'm not sure if the Town Board can handle, even to discuss if we have any authority and if they're Planning Board. 1 will send those people to the Planning Board. I've got to find out where the lines are. MRS. POTENZA-But we're still going to hold the elected officials accountable. MR. BORGOS-True. MRS. POTENZA-And that's what it boils down to. MRS. MONAHAN-First I think you've got to find out if these comments are based in fact and that is the first job and I think that's what Peter is trying to do there is outline the facts. Would you continue, Peter, please. MR. CARTIER-Okay. I'd like to just jump around here because I do want to get this all in. In terms of what we're doing. what I'd like to do and, again. if this is factual. if you want to look at it that way. to answer to answer the comment that it takes so long and the Planning Department is not sensitive to speeding up the process. The fact of the matter is, we have done a number of things. MR. BORGOS-Right. and I have reminded them in public meetings about this. MR. CARTIER-We've gone to two meetings a month. This present Board is much more amenable to scheduling special meetings than the previous Board was. We've come up with an Expedited Review Process for smaller projects. Those Expedited Review projects are also exempt from Agenda Control and those can be added. So. we're doing something like that. It's the first time through this Expedited Review thing and we've got to tinker with it. It's not perfect yet and it may never be. We are working on, I'm sure you're aware, a pre engineer review system because that seems to be a major bone of contention. how long it takes to get engineering things taken care of. So, that's being worked on. MR. BORGOS-And, again, let me interrupt for one second, because I agree with that 100 percent, but is that appropriately a Planning Board decision or is that a Town Board decision in outlining the process by which things go through the system? I've got to know that because, are you spinning your wheels or would we be spinning our wheels? MR. CARTIER-It seems to me that that is really. in fact, Planning Board policy and what the Planning Board needs to do is establish some sort of policy and take it to the Town Board and say, this is what we'd like to do. Does not the Town Board pass on all Planning Board policies? MR. BORGOS-Well, that is !!!l. understanding, that the Town Board passes on Planning Board policies, but is that a Planning Board policy. If it is, fine, lets determine that and lets get it through. MR. CARTIER-If you want an answer from me, I'd say, yes. that's a Planning Board policy. MR. BORGOS-Well, I need a legal opinion. MR. MONTESI-Isn't there a bigger picture here, though? If you, no matter what you do in terms of a time frame, and I know we've wrestled with this, but a guy comes in and he gets reviewed, whatever project, and there are some deficiencies in that project. okay. Whether he gets it a week or two weeks before the meeting, he looks at that and he changes something. Now the process is that whatever changes he makes has got to go back to our engineer. Now there's no way in hell that you can get it back to the engineer and him say yes or no and still make that same agenda. I mean. realistically, what you have to say is, I'm going to give this back to you two weeks before the meeting. If there's a deficiency, you just lost a month. Now, that would make everybody happy because then they'd say, all right up front, I Know I lost a month. MRS. MONAHAN-Wait a minute. I have a feeling that maybe the process that they're trying to establish, and I may be wrong on this, is if they get the developer's engineer and the Town's engineer talking at a much earlier stage. perhaps before the developer's engineer has expended a lot of hours he's going to bill the developer for. MR. MONTESI-That's the only way you're going to get around this. MRS. MONAHAN-And doing work that the Planning Board says, or our Town Engineer says isn't going to work. If you can get those two levels working early. we can cut down, perhaps. on money the developer is spending on engineering fees and we can get in front of the Planning Board a plan that is not going so have much.... MR. MONTESI-No question. That's the way you have to approach it because you can't short circuit the review, the deficiencies and then the review. MRS. POTENZA-Ron. we talked about this a year and a half ago. 6 "--" --- MRS. YORK-What we need, though, is a mechanism to charge the developer for that review. We've been trying to get. and I'm sure Lynn will attest to that, that there has been ongoing committee talk about it and about finding a mechanism to charge the developer for that up front review. At this point in time. this is the way we charge the developer. When they come in, they are given a number to be on the Planning Board agenda. That's our mechanism for charging. We need to find other ways to do that by contractual agreement or something, then it's a go. What some people are doing, now, is coming in and saying, okay, I want my project reviewed. but in order for you to be able to do it, give me a number and I'll go on, not this month's agenda. but the next month's agenda and then it's review. There is still a time frame involved there, but at least they are getting an up front look. MR. BORGOS-And that's a perfect example, but, again, I don't want to, we don't have time. today, to go into all these in great detail, but that's an example of who does it. Are you wasting your time to try to handle that problem or are you properly handling that and then send it back through the process to the Town Board, as you said a minute ago. I mean. I have to know that. MR. CARTIER-I think that's something that the Planning Board sits down with the Planning Staff and figures that out and we've got an engineer on the Planning Board who's already come up with some criteria, some threshold criteria and this is stuff that we can approve contingent upon... MR. BORGOS-But then are you authorized to institute that immediately or does it go to the Planning Staff to bring back to the Town Board or do you form a resolution to submit it to the Town Board? We have to know those things. MR. CARTIER-My question is. how has that sort of thing been handled in the past? MR. BORGOS-I don't know that it's been addressed. MR. CARTIER-When the Planning Board has made a change in policy. MR. BORGOS-Some of it has. Your Expedited Matters case. MR. DUSEK-Well, I think maybe I could help out in this area. In the past, first of all, a lot of these issues didn't arise in the past. A lot of the stuff that's happening now and being taken a close look at it is something of more recent vintage because I've been with the Town, now, since 1988 and so I've seen some of the changes occurri ng and I thi n k a lot of it is.. the intense development and the a rea becoming more developed, but basically the law provides that there is an ability of the Planning Board to adopt it's own Rules and Regulations, which this Board has done, too. in the past and in fact has made modifications to those Rules and Regulations. They propose them. They hold public hearings on them. They adopt them and then they send them to the Town Board which would have the final say as to whether or not they would approve those regulations. If the Town Board does, they become effective. If they don't, then it goes back to the drawing board. So, in the first instance. there's that. Now, there is a grey area in the law that. and this is the area that's troublesome sometimes and that is, can the Planning Board have certain, for lack of a better word, policies that are not necessarily in the shape of a regulation, per see That goes through this whole process and those are things that you have to kind of look on it on a case by case basis. Obviously, the safer way to do it is by way of written rule and procedure because then you'll know it will hold up later and once it's been agreed to. it's in writing and everybody understands it. but there may be an ability to not go that complete formal route with some things and that's the type of, like I say, that's the type of thing we have to probably just sit down and review and address as they come up. MR. BORGOS-And I'd like to be able to make a list and ask your Planning Board to make a list of the kinds of things and at some point, fairly quickly. have a meeting where we can sit and discuss, on a workshop basis. those kinds of problems so we can have delineated as quickly as possible the authorities and responsibilities. Again. not telling you how to do your job, but just so, making it faster so you know you're working or we're working to get it accomplished. That's all we need. MR. MONTESI-I mean, if Lee York and this Planning Board and the Department feel that they have a mechanism or procedure to institute, they'd li ke to institute, I mean. what they need is the legality of a legal mechani sm to charge the developer, then put that to paper and to pen and then let the Town Board force that issue of charging. We'll have our Staff look at how we're going to charge and make it legal and it's done and we've taken your advice and we've just tried to make it legal, especially if you're collecting money. I think you really want a regulation. MRS. MONAHAN-Well, Ron. actually, we've been trying to get escrow accounts settled in this Town. The County consul tants we have, when I was on the Pl anni ng Committee wi th Lynn, she was in contact wi th the Legal Staff many times. The Town Board has talked about this. It's one of those things that have not been done. Escrow accounts are not a new thing in this Town. What would be new about this one is that a developer would sign a document saying that he will be responsible for engineering fees before he does get on the agenda, that would be the change, but these escrow accounts have been kicking around and cost this Town a heck of a lot of trouble because they have not been finalized for at least two years that I can vouch for. 7 --- --- MR. BORGOS-Ri ght. We've talked about 1 arge projects wi th an anti ci pati on of $5,000 and we have had escrow accounts for West Mountain and a couple of others that were large. MRS. POTENZA-That's right and they have the luxury of time, the larger projects, because they know, they foresee that it's going to be a time problem or time concern going through the process. It's the smaller individual businesses and/or residents that I'm more concerned about. When you're talking Highland or Earltown or West Mountain. they'll march to the drum, okay, but it's the individual that approaches me on the street that is concerned because of, I don't know. putting in a holding tank up at the Lake versus, you know. and checking setbacks and that type of thing, doing an expansion on a home and/or a mom and pop business coming into the Town of Queensbury. coming into the Department, finding out what has to be. and what process they have to go through and getting so frustrated that they don't even fill out the application. They walk away and they move to Glens Falls where they don't have to go through the process and I know, believe me, I don't lay any blame on the foot of the Planning Board. I feel that they are doing a terrific job. I think the problem lies with the process and you work the process every day, you know, every meeting. You have to know. eventually, where the kink is. You have to know where the weak link is. MR. CAIMANO-Let me ask a question, here, of Lee and you, Peter, I guess. because you've been on the Board longer. Lynn brings up a "kink". There is one kink that. in it's perceptive value, would probably be a very good thing and that is, when a person walks in. whether it's one day or the day of the meeting, and they look at questions, there has been, you have said and so have you. in the past, well, you have to have it at the same time as the Board members. We were talking about this yesterday. I really don't care. I would rather have the applicant well armed with answers. As. long as the applicant understands that they can't change the project as originally submitted, I don't really give a big rats fanny when they get it. MR. CARTIER-That's true and I agree with that. The problem occurs, however, is that when they get these three days in advance, they assume, and I have no objection to giving them out early. as long as they don't make the assumption that now they can make revisions and we don't have to go back to the review process. They can walk into the Planning Board with a revised application. MRS. PULVER-I think that they should have like a review and get the Staff Notes and everything back and make all their changes and re-submit their changes and then come to the Planning Board. MR. CAIMANO-As long as the project before the Planning Board has not been changed, if I have a paper that says, this is what the project is and because of something over there. he comes in and he's got a totally different project. what the hell's the sense of meeting? MRS. POTENZA-But, Nick, what happens on that project if the change comes and it says. one of the changes are minor changes, an addition or subtraction of parking spaces? MR. CAIMANO-And it's already been talked about? MRS. POTENZA-And it was brought to the attention at the Department Head's Meeting that this was lacking. MR. CAIMANO-I really don't care. That's fine. MRS. POTENZA-But now, the way the process is, it can go before the Board and if there isn't enough parking spots or handicapped parking or whatever minor thing, the applicant doesn't even know that until he's at that meeting that night and what happens if you have that three day layover and he corrects that site? Are you going to say, wait a second, now the thing is changed and we're not going to look at it? MR. CARTIER-We're talking, at what level does this thing kick it out of the review process for another go around, then that's the issue we have to talk about, okay, and it seems to be that most of those things tend to be engineering, okay. Now. if we get this pre engineering review system going, then those problems are going to solve themselves, I hope. MRS. POTENZA-This is another of my concerns. You talk pre engineering. If a project goes, and Jim you're much more familiar with this than I am because you live and work this. If a project is reviewed and someone hires an engineer, for stormwater runoff or whatever you want to talk about. and that engineer is a licensed engineer and he stamps that application and he's putting his license on the line by presenting this recommendation. What do we have now? Do we have a conflict between the Town Engineer and this other engineer, the Town Engineer is saying, this may be right. but I prefer this, therefore, I'm going to push your application back because I would like to see this other suggestion or this other recommendation? MRS. PULVER-Sometimes we do. MRS. POTENZA-That does happen. MRS. PULVER-I'm trying to think. Who was it? It was Weller that was in front of us and the Town Engineer looked at it one way. 8 ',,---, --- MR. CAIMANO-And what did we say, we said you guys go and sit decide it. MRS. PULVER-Right, but I mean there was no decision made because the Town Engineer said one thing and we said something else. MR. CAIMANO-Well. wait a minute. Answer the first part of Lynn's question. The first part of Lynn's question. obviously, when he appeared before the Town. licensed or not they are a paid advocate of someone. So, you've got to start with that. Then it's up to those guys. We can't argue with them. I would never argue with them because it's up to..and we did say that, at one time, we said. you guys go into the corner and talk your engineering crap. MRS. POTENZA-There's a problem with that, Nick. I'll tell you what the problem is. now the applicant paying double, okay. The applicant is paying for theoofrom the Town Engineer and also for his own engineer. MR. CAIMANO-Yes, but he has an opportunity to go before the Town and it's engineers long before he appears before the Boards to talk about those things. MR. BORGOS-It would be under the new process. MR. CAIMANO-Okay. give it to him for free. I don't care. What do I care about pay. MRS. YORK-I want to just say one thing because after Staff Review, and maybe you're not aware of this, Staff Review occurs the first Wednesday of the month in the morning. That afternoon we send out all the packets. They have to go to Warren County, okay. Warren County has to review these. MR. BORGOS-All of them or some of them? MRS. YORK-They review 99 percent of them. There were probably five. in total, last year that were not reviewed by Warren County. Anything within 500 feet of a County or State Highway or a navigable waterway. MRS. MONAHAN-Recreation spots. MRS. YORK-Anything. MRS. MONAHAN-Town parks, Federal parks. don't mean Town. but County, Federal parks? MRS. YORK-Yes. So, anything. they have to be reviewed by Warren County and we send out everything under the SEQRA process that is required at that time. Now. those people that are required to review this cannot be reviewing a different plan and they have 30 days in which to comment on it. What happens is. basically, my Department, because there has been this concern for a long time. Instead of having the Planning Board take lead agency status on these projects and then having the project go on another month, the Planning Board said, Lee, send out the information immediately so we don't hold people up for a month. So, that's what I do. Then, within the time frames, I call the involved agencies and if I think there's going to be a problem. alert them to the fact that this is coming and then before the Planning Board Meeting I call them again and ask them if they have comments. Now the 30 days has not elapsed at this point in time. Usually, they will give me their comments over the phone or write them to me at that point in time, but many times they prefer to take their 30 days. I mean, that's their choice. They have a choice at that time. MR. BORGOS-You're really raising the issue, though, of major versus minor. MRS. YORK-Right, but everything goes to Warren County. that's the bottom line. MR. BORGOS-But let I s assume for a minute that a project comes in and it's got 26 parking spaces and that the engineer at some point later recommends 27. Now, you've been saying, I understand that that's a problem and you won't review it. MR. CAIMANO-Not at all. That has never been a problem. MR. MARTIN-Not something that minor. MR. CARTIER-If somebody is telling you that we'd turn something down because of one parking space or even two or three or four. you're getting an opinion. MR. BORGOS-Lee's raising the point. Does that have to go back again to Warren County because it's a change? 9 '-- ~ MR. CAIMANO-No, because what we have done so far and much to Peter's chagrin, Carol and I kind of push it a little bit, is that we say, it doesn't make any difference because Warren County is advisory only. So, I said, what the hell's the difference. Let's pass it and get on with it. So. that's what's of concern is that we are doing something. MRS. POTENZA-The reason I talked about parking spots. and I tell you why it sat in my craw, is because I was at the Planning Board Meeting when Mr. LaFontaine went before the Board. MR. CAIMANO-Who's he? MRS. YORK-Martha's Ice Cream. MRS. POTENZA-Martha' s Ice Cream, when he wanted to expand the motel, okay, now this was a year or so ago. MR. CAIMANO-Yes. MRS. POTENZA-But he was in his third trip around coming before the Board and there was a discussion about handicapped parking. MR. CARTIER-Right. MRS. POTENZA-And as to whether the handicapped parking should be in the center of the parking area or either to the left of the parking area or to the right of the parking area. Now mind you, ladies and gentleman, this is a half and hour debate this went on. Finally, out of frustration, the man throws his arms up and says. whatever you want, wherever you want me to put it I'll put it. I've got to get through this process. I've got a contractor I'm retaining and I've got to move on this. So, whatever you want. you tell me where you want them. MR. CARTIER-But that got approved that night. That did not hold that up. MRS. POTENZA-But it was the frustration, Peter, that he was, after three months. MR. CAIMANO-That's a totally different Board, I might add, too. MR. BORGOS-Yes. but these are the kinds of things. MR. MARTIN-That's an important point to bring up. here. We are dealing in a community that's in transition right now and you're talking about the past two years of which you've gone through riding out the rough spots of a brand new Ordinance, one of the first of this kind within 30 miles of this Town and I think it's important to remember what you're dealing with here. You're dealing with a municipality that is unique in its development pressures for this area and again I think the comparison to the Colonie's and the Guilderlands and the Wiltons are well founded because those are the same type of communities that are experiencing similar pressures. MR. CAIMANO-And the pressure, as you pointed out is very well pointed out. is the fact that on the one hand. we've got the LaFontaine and on the other hand, those particular things about the septic tanks on setbacks on Lake George bring their own particular pressures because of the environment. MRS. POTENZA-But in any community. Nick. I mean, we can talk about Clifton Park and Colonie or whatever. I mean, I don't know what it's ahead of them. I don't know if everything in their town has to go before the Planning Board. In this Town, everything comes before this Board. everything. The point I'm trying to make is that there are things that have to be, I mean the only thing that doesn't have to go before this Board is home occupation in a residential home. okay. a home occupation. Other that, if you review the Ordinances. you'll see that everything's got to come before the Board. Maybe we should sit back and think hard about that again. MR. CAIMANO-That's not so. MR. BORGOS-There's too much stuff to.. MRS. MONAHAN-I would like to clarify something here, because I keep hearing septic tanks bandied around and I think. as we all know, when we start tal king about variances for the Sanitary Ordinance, there's only one Board they come in front of which is the Board of Health which is the Town Board and the Planning Board does not get involved in that. MR. CAIMANO-That's right. MR. CARTIER-I'm feeling pressed for time. What I'm suggesting is, you want to end this before four, because Paul can't be here. Are there some issues specific to Paul's being here, or do you want Paul here for all of them? 10 -- -../ MR. BORGOS-My whole reason for calling the first one is to say I think we have jurisdictional/authority/ responsibility kinds of problems. That's, just to get that point across. MR. CARTIER-Okay. MR. BORGOS-We want to resolve them. I think you probably want to resolve them. I want to be able to answer phone calls by saying, yes I can help you or no I can't, but call the Planning Board or appear on the agenda of the Planning Board or something. MR. CARTIER-No, don't call the Planning Board. Call the Planning Department. MR. BORGOS-Well, I know. I've got to know which way is appropriate. under the law, so we don't get sued. Unfortunately, we have to worry about that and so that I can answer the people. MR. CARTIER-Okay, which goes to your second item. basically, role or and so on and so forth. MR. BORGOS-Yes. MR. CARTIER-The easy answer, for me, is that the Planning Board is responsible for the maintenance of the Master Plan and seeing to it that applications adhere to the Ordinances that derive from that. As far as the Planning Department Staff, the easy answer to me, again. I'm not suggesting everybody's got to agree with this. is that the Planning Department works for the Town by providing services to the Planning Board, the Zoning Board and so on. MR. BORGOS-I think we all agree with that. MR. CAIMANO-But you mentioned something else, though. You said their work schedule. Their work schedule, defacto, comes from the work that's put out by the Zoning Boards and the Planning Boards, does it not? MR. BORGOS-In general. We have said the schedule will be flexible as far as we're concerned. If Lee or John have to appear at a Board meeting, then the hours they work that night they take off during the daytime. MR. CAIMANO-I'm talking about work during the day. MR. BORGOS-Or work during the day, if we see a priority, in our minds. What's going to happen if we bump into, if, and Lee hasn't said this yet, but if Lee were to say. gee. I can't do this today, Steve, because I'm finishing a Planning Board matter that they said is a priority. Sticky. MR. CAIMANO-Well, let me tell you what's going to happen. What will happen is you'll get an applicant who can't appear on the agenda because they can't get their work done. That's what's going to happen. So, now you've got to make that decision, just like they're making. MR. BORGOS-But this is the point. does the Town Board have that right or does the Planning Board have the supreme right in dealing with the Planning Department. MR. CARTIER-I think it's a question of priority. MR. BORGOS-That's my opinion, but I've got to bring them out. MR. CARTIER-It's a question of priority because the Planning Staff has got a bunch of jobs to do. some of which are for the Town Board, some of which are for the Planning Board. some of which are for the Zoning Board and I don't have the answer for this. I think what we have to decide is, what takes precedent on Planning Staff time. MR. BORGOS-Who makes that decision? MR. CARTIER-I hope it's a group decision. MRS. MONAHAN-Has it ever been a problem? MRS. YORK-I don't think that..it's never even arisen as a problem. MRS. MONAHAN-I don't think it's ever been a problem and I think we're trying to borrow problems that haven't occurred and we've got enough to settle that have occurred without going out and looking for ones that haven't occurred. MR. BORGOS-I know. Peter, you wanted to comment on a couple of other things. MR. CARTIER-I don't know where else to go. here, with this. You were talking about. and we've kind of danced around these things, are levels of change. at what level of change does an application involve getting kicked back through the roof, again, if you will, or go on. We're working on that. Again. those seem to be mostly engineering issues. Ed LaPoint's already done that for us. 11 '--' ..-' MRS. YORK-Right. MR. CARTIER-And maybe that needs to be formalized as part of Planning Board policy. MR. BORGOS-Can I safely, then, say. to the public, for that specific concern. the Planning Board is working on it and they're about to propose some new regulations. MR. CARTIER-Yes. MR. BORGOS-That will make me comfortable. MR. CAIMANO-I wonder about communications that are coming to you, too. I saw a letter the other day in which you had said something to Peter regarding our site visitations. Long. long time ago. before I ever got into that truck, I made the statement and Carol was there. We all said, we will not meet on Saturdays unless the press is notified. A year and a half later, the concern comes to you that you realize, and I'm not saying you're out of the loop. I'm saying, where was the cOlllllunication? It's already been taken care of. MR. BORGOS-No. A memo came to me from Lee York's office indicating that the Planning Board. from now on, will be meeting on one Saturday a month and I simply said to Lee. be sure that you tell them that that will be a public meeting and there would have to be provisions for the press to be able to ride in any vehicle. MR. CAIMANO-But that was a year old problem. MR. BORGOS-I was just responding to the new memo that came. You've been holding these meetings? MR. CAIMANO-Since I've been on the Board. MR. BORGOS-I wasn't aware of that you've been holding them. MRS. YORK-Well, they started on Thursday afternoons and then switched over. MR. CARTIER-Part of the reason for doing that, too. we've taken some flack about getting together that way, but understand there an advantage. in terms of time there too. We get to talk about the application on these site visits and it saves time at the meeting. MR. BORGOS-I think it's a wonderful, we did it a couple of years ago. We solved a long standing problem in ten minutes. All I'm saying is so that we don't get hit with a law suit, please be sure that the press is notified, that's all I'm saying. MR. MONTESI-Peter let me give you a very, I was encountered, as Steve gets sometimes. as a very specific, and I can name names because the people have talked to me. I was out shopping at Christmas. The Wood Carte said to me, the guy that owns the Wood Carte in the Northway Plaza, I have to move. My landlord is, I'm growing. I need more space and my land lord..provide it. He said, I would like to build on Oliver Laasko's Earltown project down on Quaker Road in the commercial section. I'm interested in buying a lot there. Gee, I said. that's wonderful. That's great. The sales tax revenue will stay in my community. He said, I have a problem with your Planning Board and Zoning Board and Planning Department. I said, what's the problem. He said. I have to go for a variance because in Highway Commercial. there is no designation for a furniture store. I said. gee. I said. that's interesting, probably an oversight. I think generally we look for a Highway Commercial or whatever that zone is to have retail stores and we didn't delineate or specifically say a furniture store. Why don't you start that process of the zoning review because I said that's the least of your concerns. I said, you're going to have a site plan review and septic is going to be a problem because I'm not sure what kind of septic tanks you can put there. but I said, why don't you get that process going. It'll take you one month. I said, you've got your building done? He says, it's a very basic rectangular building. I said, well, you need site plan review. Now, I think I tried to solve that problem and short circuit any bad will. I said. I really want you to come to my cOlllllunity. I said, to that extent, I will make a call to Pat Collard tomorrow to verify that you do need a variance and she did. I don't know if he's gone through with it. I don't know if retail sales are off and he's balking at it, but in a very positive way. I wanted him to stay here. I did a little bit of homework on the thing and yes, there is a loop hole. I mean there is something that I would like to think that I could address and we had a workshop meeting a month ago and we need a couple of more on the Ordinances and it says, gee, if you want to build a furniture store in the Town of Queensbury, you better not plan on doing it in Highway Commercial, unless you want to go for a variance. 1'm not sure that's right. We should change that. MRS. MONAHAN-There were no similar uses? MR. BORGOS-No. That's one of the proposed changes to the regulations. Right now it says. fish store, candy store. balloon store. It doesn't say furniture store. 12 "'--' -.,../ MR. CARTIER-Well, we're in a hell of a trap trying to list everything. MR. BORGOS-Well, that's why you've got to say retail. MRS. MONAHAN-At the time that Ordinance was worked on and adopted. it was stated very concisely that all uses could not possibly be listed. It was to be considered as similar uses. It does say that they are illustrative. MR. CAIMANO-Well, the point here, though, is that as these come up. if it comes up as a very specific thing. I think that can get handled and a problem can arise that..be taken care of. I think just talking about generalities doesn't solve anything. MRS. MONAHAN-That's right. I think you're completely right. MR. CAIMANO-If somebody comes to you or Lynn or whoever and complains, then why not go directly to him or somebody. MRS. POTENZA-Because then that's political..Nick. MR. CAIMANO-No. MRS. POTENZA-Well. QEDC's a perfect example of that. Everybody on the Board thought that I was putting too much pressure on because of QEDC. MR. CAIMANO-Only because things hadn't been done before hand, that's all. MRS. POTENZA-Well. even after the fact. MR. CAIMANO-But if he comes to me and says, Wood Carte can't get in here without a Zoning Variance because it's not listed and all this comes up, that triggers something to happen. doesn't it? MR. CARTIER-Here's what needs to happen. There has to be one person that somebody can be directed to when you get hit by questions like that. MR. CAIMANO-Sure. MR. CARTIER-And she's right. It's the Planning Department. If somebody raises a question with you and you don't have the answer for it, the best answer you can give him is to go into the Planning Department or take him in. because these people have the answers. They do this stuff everyday. Most of it's in their head. MR. CAIMANO-Doesn't that take you off the political hook? MR. BORGOS-See, this exact thing happened to me at a meeting last week of the Business Association and people said, here are problems and an accountant and an attorney both turned to me and looked and said. he said, you're in charge of this Town, you fix it. MRS. MONAHAN-But. Steve, an awful lot in that meeting was misinterpretation and misinformation and we should not be reacting to those kind of things. MR. MARTIN-I think that type of comment, though, has got to be taken from it's source. I mean, you know, I went to that QBA Meeting to and I was very encouraged to see that maybe this was going to be an educational group that would work with the Town. various Town Boards and accomplish some good things, but on the other hand, I think they should be very careful of turning into a vigilante fringe group who's just a certain group of people who are interested in a certain thing and because they have this power, this stick to offer, hey, we got sales tax and we got property tax or we're going to hold it over your head like a big stick. I don't personally care for that and, again, from my experience and what I do in my profession, an area can draw on what it's got to offer to a business. Queensbury's got good location and it's a growing community and believe me, that is not something they're going to look by just because you've got a provision or two in your Ordinance that's a little sticky to deal with. MR. BORGOS-But they still want to know who to go to to get the answers. Lee York is not in power to make the decisions. I'm not in power to make the decisions. The Planning Board may make some. The Town Board may make some. The ZBA may make some and some are out in the never never land and all we're trying to communicate is that we've got to identify those and get a legal opinion. MRS. MONAHAN-I think what they are trying to say, though. if you send them to Lee or the Planning Department. who's ever down there, they send them on the correct journey and I have followed that that way many times with my constituents. I have gone in with them, said here's the problem. Where are we all supposed to go next and I go to the next spot with them. I've even sat down and helped them fill out some of their papers for them so they don't feel overwhelmed. 13 ---" MR. CARTIER-Yes. I don't mean that Lee is going to. at that initial step, is going solve their problem or cure it, but Lee is going to be able to direct that person to... MR. BORGOS-Without exception, all of those people have already been that route. MR. MONTESI-Steve. can we continue. We're getting some good dialogue here. Do we still need Paul? MR. BORGOS-You have to go back. I would go for a few more minutes. I've got another engagement coming up, too. So, 4:15, I could make. MR. CARTIER-Maybe here's an easy one. The press release issue. All I'm hearing is that these press releases are sent through what office? MR. BORGOS-Okay. All Town press releases come through my office and go through Kathleen for proper english and so forth, but a Planning Board, I don't want to tamper with Planning Board things unless you say. here's what we want to send out, will you just check it. MRS. PULVER-I think it says something in the Rules and Procedures, doesn't it? MR. CAIMANO-Right. MRS. PULVER-That all press releases will be approved by the Planning Board. MR. CARTIER-Planning Board. MRS. MONAHAN-I would say, you know. if it's a policy procedure and you want the Town to publicize it, that's one thing. If it's sensitive matters that the Planning Board is commenting on, that should come directly from the Planning Board itself so that nObody is tampering with anything that the Planning Board wanted to say about a certain issue. MR. CAIMANO-Right..the Chairman himself or herself. whoever that be. MR. CARTIER-I think the issue is, who has the authority to send out press releases and the question is, if I'm understand this, does the Planning Board have the authority, on its own, to send out... MR. BORGOS-As far as I'm concerned, you do. MR. CAIMANO-Me, too. MR. CARTIER-So we've solved that. The only thing you want don~ is a copy sent up to Kathy. right? MR. BORGOS-Yes. MR. CARTIER-Okay. Engineering Review costs. MRS. YORK-If I could just jump in here. I sent you a letter. MR. BORGOS-I've got it. I've already dictated a response to you. MRS. YORK-Okay. So you realize that some of our reviews are dictated by the Ordinances, the Sewage Ordinance, and the Subdivision Regulations that we deal with. MR. BORGOS-Right. MRS. YORK-And there's other standard things that are reviewed with the agents or Rist-Frost and myself and we clearly have an understanding regarding these. MR. BORGOS-No question about it, and you are authorized. from time to time as necessary, to retain Rist-Frost to look at specific things for specific projects. MRS. YORK- Yes. MR. BORGOS-That was cleared up a week ago at a Planning Department Meeting. MRS. MONAHAN-Steve, I have a thing that I requested many times that I would like to see a policy. and I think that in all fairness to the owner, the developer, whatever category it falls in. that person should be notified of the fact that the engineer is going to be on their property at such and such a day. MR. BORGOS-Absolutely. Supposedly, that's being done. 14 -- --' MRS. MONAHAN-I don't believe so. MR. BORGOS-We sent that down to the Planning Department months ago. MRS. MONAHAN-I know, but the engineer has to agree to this. MR. BORGOS-Well. I'm sure that they will. MRS. KINAHAN-And I would like this to happen. An actual appointment is set up. The engineer does a schedule that. through your office or the engineering firm. It's probably cheaper if we do it through our Planning Department. MR. BORGOS-That's our Planning Department, the engineer and the Planning Department work with the appli cant. MRS. MONAHAN-Get in contact with the applicant and say that the engineer will be on your site at such and such a time if you would care to be there. Then he knows that his charge is valid. The engineer has been there for an hour, two hours, three hours, 15 minutes. He has a chance to talk to him or even bring his own engineer if he wants to. I think that could do a lot to solve some problems. MR. BORGOS-That's 100 percent, that should be. MR. CARTIER-Is it worth doing that with the Planning Board, too, site visits? Is it worth letting applicants know that the Planning Board members will be on site somewhere between 1 and 5 p.m.? MR. BORGOS-I would think that that would be great. MR. CAIMANO-Fine. MR. BORGOS-They would be so happy. MRS. PULVER-What did we say, the second Saturday in the month? MR. CARTIER-No, the Saturday before the first regularly scheduled meeting. MR. BORGOS-That would give those people an opportunity to point things out to you. To answer your questions. (TAPE TURNED) MR. CARTIER-Just a couple of other quick things here. The question came up, why does it go to engineering. We have criteria. I think that's what Lee is describing, so I think that's dealt with. How could it be done faster. we've addressed that. Who's authorized to change the process? My own personal opinion is that the Planning Board policy is controlled by the Planning Board with the approval of the Town Board, okay. We've established that. I also might make an editorial comment, here, and back it up with some things that have been said to me. Once an applicant understands the process and follows the process, it goes faster. I've had applicants tell me that, okay. and I think what needs to be done here is some education. We need to make people aware of what the process is. MR. BORGOS-We have been working on booklets for three years and we're about to come up with the first one soon and then fairly quickly. for every kind of. for subdivisions, for pools, for whatever, give them to people and it would be very simple and they'd check it off. MR. CAIMANO-We had a mom and pop. but it wasn't in our Ward. It was in George's. I think. A husband and wife were going to rent this place and open a deli and the first time they came before us, I mean it would have been nice if we could approve them, but we'd have been in dangerous ground if we had approved it and the reason was they just couldn't work their way through that form, which could have been handled, I think. MR. BORGOS-The Planning Staff is here and it's a free service. MR. CAIMANO-There's an opportunity for the public to say, gee, the Planning Board. the little guy got killed. If we had ever approved that, we'd have been on really shaky ground. MRS. POTENZA-But the concern there lies in the Planning Department. If there was a problem with that application. someone in that Staff should have hand held that applicant to help fill out that form. MR. CARTIER-And that's been done in the past. MRS. YORK-The unfortunate part in this particular case was the applicant came in with the paper work the day of the submission. By that time, when we talk to them, it's too late. There have been abusive people in the past who have said, look, we are going to go before the Board and we don't care what happens. and blah, blah, blah. In those cases. we step back and they will be handled by the Board. 15 ---" MR. CARTIER-And they have been handled by the Board. MRS. YORK-And in that case, they were, and then we were given the opportunity to help them, but there are some people that you cannot say, step back a month and let me help you do this right. MR. MARTIN-Well, this brings up an issue that was brought up during my interview when I was appointed to the Board. I would li ke to see, I think that it is time. now, finally, for a totally revamped application both for subdivision and site plan review. In reading that application, I mean. the very nature of the way it's laid out, the way it's worded. the way it's structured assumes that the individual is coming from a planning background or an engineering background and I think we have to sit back and structure something from the standpoint of, you know, maybe someone who's never heard of anything like this before and make it easier and more self explanatory. MR. BORGOS-Wonderful idea. MRS. PULVER-The next applicant that comes in, you use him as a guinea pig and make it, because he's never been through it. MR. MARTIN-If you were to go back that far into the process. at the very, very, very start, I think you would avoid a lot of these hard feelings that come out months later. MR. BORGOS-Wonderful idea. MR. CARTIER-Okay. Who does it and when do we do it? MRS. POTENZA-Well, that's how we get talking at the committee and that's initially our idea. MR. BORGOS-Why not let Jim come up with some ideas. If he's thinking about it, put some ideas down, then we can assign it to Lee to work on it and give it out to everybody. MR. MARTIN-I'll sit down with Lee anytime. MR. BORGOS-I think that's a wonderful idea. Great. MRS. POTENZA-And with those folders..proposed booklets that we're in the process of making up. Keep it as simple as possible. MR. MARTIN-That could be part of the application package. MR. CARTIER-I've got one more thing. I want to walk out of this meeting knowing who's going to work on what. What are we going to do as a result of this meeting? MR. BORGOS-He's going to look at a new application. MR. CARTIER-What else are we going to do? MR. CAIMANO-Before you even get into that, I've got one more thing because Lynn brought up the idea, and rightfully so, of help from the Planning Staff. I made this comment at your hearing, regarding the new Zoning Administrator position and all that kind of stuff. I just want to ask you to look again. and you jogged my memory when you said the interview. You look for people to serve on these Boards with proper background. You look for lawyers who have legal degrees. You look for administrative assistants with backgrounds. Even yourselves, when you run for public office, you have to present your bonfidees to the public. They have to see what you do. Don't leave this whole process hanging on someone, and I, and forget about who's there now. don't leave it hanging on someone who doesn't have the patience of Job and some background to do the job. MR. BORGOS-That's not a topic of this meeting. MR. CAIMANO-I know that, but what it's going to do is it's going to impact on this job. It impacts on all of our jobs. MR. BORGOS-Yes. I'd be happy to talk about that at another meeting. MR. CAIMANO-Well, it has impact with the Staff. MR. BORGOS-I'd be delighted to do it because I have a way to explain, regardless of who the person is, why that position is absolutely necessary and some things that are happening. MRS. PULVER-Let's get off that subject. Back to where we are, here. One thing that concerns me are all the charges and all the things that everybody has to have regardless if they're dividing one piece of property into two pieces or one piece into eight pieces or whatever. I mean, there has to be rules 16 for it, but I would like it to be better. The thing that comes to my mind is the Corinth Road project. They had to go outside their architectural firm that they were dealing with and go to C.T. Male because they needed an architectural landscaper. MR. BORGOS-Who said? MRS. PULVER-It's in the forms. They needed an architect and landscaper. MRS. YORK-It's part of the Ordinance that was passed. MRS. PULVER-Right. MR. BORGOS-I don't remember that. MRS. PULVER-That was an additional expense. That's the first time. that's an additional expense to an affordable housing project that didn't need to be there. MR. BORGOS-But you see things like that. proposal as changes. MRS. MONAHAN-All right, Carol, but let's get back... MRS. PULVER-But I mean, there are other things, too. MRS. MONAHAN-Yes, I mean, you talk about affordable housing in the TownooState of New York that made you do the archeological digs. I mean, everything isn't on the Town. MRS. PULVER-I'm not blaming it on the Town. I'm not even thinking on the Town. I'm saying there are other charges, too. that are involved with other parts of the application. MR. BORGOS-You mean, dollars, you don't mean allegations. MRS. PULVER-No. Dollars. I'm beginning to think we're making all the lawyers. and the engineers and the architects rich. MRS. POTENZA-You are. MR. MARTIN-My other comment in that regard is, I think, again, as a settling back to a compromise position after we've seen the Ordinance working for two years, I think the Town should give serious consideration. now, to maybe revising it's attitude towards minor subdivision regulations. I really feel. again. a lot of these problems we're hearing are these smaller groups or the transfer of property among family members. MR. CAIMANO-The recreational fee, for example. MR. MARTIN-Right, that could be handled in a minor subdivision clause and, I mean. you certainly have the legal staff and the Planning Staff to, relatively quickly, insert such a provision into your Ordinance. MRS. YORK-We made a suggestion as to that provision about a year ago. MR. MARTIN-Because as someone who did go through it, it was a lot of things that just simply weren't relevant and caused the applicant... MR. BORGOS-That's exactly our point. MRS. PULVER-Didn't you say that you had to spend quite a bit of money, too? MR. MARTIN-Yes. MRS. POTENZA-How much? That's exactly the point. MR. BORGOS-That's exactly our point. MR. MARTIN-Well. even the application itself was so much more exhaustive to the fact that you had to do a full blown subdivision. MRS. POTENZA-Plus the fact that you know what you were doing. You were in the profession of doing that. MR. CAIMANO-Doesn't the Town Board assess those charges? MRS. MONAHAN-Yes. 17 ~ ~ MR. BORGOS-No. Only if it's in the Ordinance. MRS. MONAHAN-And the Town Board approves every Ordinance that you guys are working with. MR. CAIMANO-But you approved the Ordinance. MR. BORGOS-That's what I'm saying. We're already in the process. There's a list out there of some 20 some recommendations that you looked at the other night. MR. MARTIN-Right. I'm not faulting anybody with that comment. There was a prevalent attitude at the time and things were, you know. development all of a sudden was here in a great wave, and so there was a natural tendency to want to pull back and say, this is the way it's going to be now, and I think at the time it was probably the best thing to do, but now we have a shifting position, here. and maybe it's the time now to re-insert the Minor Subdivision clause. MRS. MONAHAN-Jim, I think what happened was, before we got so many professionals on board, that there were times when this influx of great development happened when minor subdivisions didn't create a problem because nobody could evaluate them. MR. MARTIN-Right. MRS. MONAHAN-So then we kind of threw out the baby with the bath water, but if two of them caused a problem then by God everybody's got to come in and nobody's going to have any right to judge anything and say it is or isn't going to create a problem. MR. MARTIN-Right. Well, I'm sure you could structure your Minor Subdivision Regulations to avoid that type of problem where people were circumventing the reviews you wanted to see. MRS. MONAHAN-Well, some of them may be drainage problems, you know, but that doesn't mean that you're going to be up some place where there's nobody around you and create some big problem. MR. MARTIN-Right. MR. CARTIER-I've just got two other quickies. MR. BORGOS-Okay. and then we'll end it. MR. CARTIER-Okay. One is, the Planning Department Staff has been taking some awful hits from a variety of directions. I just want to say that this Planning Department Staff. as far as I'm concerned. has brought this Town into the 20th Century, as far as Planning is concerned. They've done a hell of a jOb. We've got some professionals and we ought to be very grateful that we have them. The other thing is, we need another Planning Board member. Are there things in the works? MR. BORGOS- The resignation has come. think l've sent a copy to all the Board members now. So. I would hope they would be taking action. MRS. MONAHAN-Paul. we have to officially have to accept that resignation letter, don't we? MR. BORGOS-We'll do it the next meeting. MRS. MONAHAN-Because it said, at our convenience. MR. BORGOS-I think it's already gone to Paul's office for a resolution for the next meeting. MRS. ftl>NAHAN-I would like to say one thing with Planning Staff here and Planning Board members and I have said this before, but not to everybody at once. I look at Highway Commercial and I'm terribly disturbed about it. Ron has found some uses that aren't in it. I look up my way and see some uses that they're going to be allowed out in a fairly rural area in Highway Commercial that are going to present a great problem. We're looking right down the road, here. at one if they put in some Highway Commercial. They're trying to, right now, it's already created a problem. I would like that Highway Commercial looked at. but not looked at as a broad zone, but looked at specifically at where in Town are we allowing Highway Commercial and each one of these specific spots look at all the uses and say, are those uses compatible with that area of Town? Because it's a terribly broad catch all zone. MR. BORGOS-Yes, and I don't want to cut you off. but that wasn't the advertised purpose of our meeting, but those are the kinds of things and we can have a lot of feedback back and forth on those. MRS. MONAHAN-But if that is going to cause some problems..so I would like that one really looked at. MR. BORGOS-I appreciate that you have taken your time. We have just. procedural things and I think you understand. Our Town Attorney has raised the same thing, for timing. 18 .-/ ,-- MR. DUSEK-Could I maybe just make one comment? I've been sitting back listening to everything, which is I think what Steve has wanted me to do and I noticed that. obviously. some of the big questions that were raised here today was in terms of who has the authority and who should be responding to the various concerns that have been raised and some of the ideas, not only concerns. but ideas that are also floating around in terms of how to handle the problems and just to give you my quick input, and maybe it's already evident, but from what I see, it's breaking down that the reason why this issue I think has been so confusing is because it seems that there's a number of, or different agencies have to take different steps. For instance, the on site reviews of the press wagon and the approval of the press releases. that's clearly. I can give you some quickies, that's clearly policy. No need for special regulations. No need for anything on that. Planning Board simply sets that. The thing that very much surprised me today is I heard that the listing of uses that are set forth in our Zoning Ordinance under Type II Lists that we have, was a comment that that was meant to be only illustrative and not definitive. The Ordinance does not say that and if that is the case then that is an example of a Town Board action that would be needed to amend the Zoning Ordinance immediately to make that the point and maybe that would eliminate some of the concerns that have been raised here. The example of the revision to the application of the site plan and subdivisions that the Board reviews, in my opinion. that type of thing would be an example of a form that the Board would develop first. I think it would be a good idea to incorporate that into your Rules and Procedures and, therefore, go through a public hearing, approve it, and then have the Town Board approve that one. So. what I see here is just that there is a number of issues that have to be approached with different legal mechanisms to get the results here. Personally, I have found this very helpful. hearing everybody discuss this because I'm starting to get a sense, now. as to what the issues are, as I'm sure you are, and perhaps we can start to work with the right mechanisms, that's my job, to help you through the process legally, so that you have your legal solutions and implement all of this. So. I feel sure, I just want everybody to get some observations I saw and let you know that I'm certainly ready to help both Boards and Departments to address what you want to do here. MR. CARTIER-Okay. Can you draft some things? MR. DUSEK- Yes. MRS. MONAHAN-Paul, would you put the solving of the escrow account situation on the top of your list, please, that we've been kicking around. MR. DUSEK-I think we need to discuss that further, because that's another example of something that I think has been so cloudy, in terms of where we're going with it, what needs to be done, that we haven't been able to focus in and solve the problem. My office has been wrestling with it for quite some time. We've addressed it, somewhat, in terms of we do have a form escrow agreement that is now used for all major projects. In fact. Pyramid signed one of those. MR. BORGOS-Okay. Thank you, again, very much. I appreciate this. We'll try to work on what we can. If we get some other ideas. we'll have another meeting. some time when we don't have the problem of time. MR. CARTIER-Okay. On motion meeting was adjourned. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED, Steve Borgos, Chairman 19