1991-09-30 SP
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IJ,IEENSBURY PlANNING BOARD MEETING
SPECIAL MEETING
SEPTEMBER 30TH. 1991
INDEX
Petition for a Change of
Zone P4-91
J. Buckley Bryan, Jr.
1.
THESE ARE NOT OFFICIALLY ADOPTED MINUTES AND ARE SUBJECT TO BOARD AND STAFF REVISIONS. REVISIONS WILL
APPEAR ON THE FOLLOWING MONTHS MINUTES (IF ANY) AND WILL STATE SUCH APPROVAL OF SAID MINUTES
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IJ,IEENSIIJRY PINtNING BOARD MEETING
SPECIAL MEETING
SEPTEtlJER 3D, 1991
6:45 P.M.
MEMBERS PRESENT
PETER CARTIER, CHAIRMAN
JAMES HAGAN
JAMES MARTIN
TIMOTHY BREWER
NICHOLAS CAIMANO
MEMBERS ABSENT
CAROL PULVER, SECRETARY
EDWARD LAPOINT
TOWN ATTORNEY-PAUL DUSEK
STENOGRAPHER-MARIA GAGLIARDI
TOWN BOARD MEMBER-BETTY MONAHAN
MR. CARTIER-We are here to review revisions to the re-zoning of the J. Buckley Bryan property and make
recommendations to the Town Board. Betty's here, I hope, to bring us up to date on the proposed
revisions to that property.
MRS. MONAHAN-Okay. I'm going to do this an entirely new way, okay. I hope I can get you people as
excited as I am. I have spent the last few weeks, as you well know, working on this specific project.
You've helped me. You've given me some of your ideas. The Planning Department has given me ideas.
Paul Dusek has given me ideas, and the more I talk to people, the more excited and the more I see the
possibilities. Yesterday, I had a chance to sit down with the owner and make an acquaintance of the
owner that works in special housing and special needs, and I got more and more excited. So, what I
would ask you to do first, okay, is look at the uses that are allowed under the MR-5 zone.
MR. CARTIER-What page are you on?
MR. MARTIN-17964.
MRS. MONAHAN-Okay. The professional office, and I see the opportunity there may be for some doctors,
as a thing to come in. I am also suggesting that you may want to limit the number of space, MR units
or whatever, that you would want to see go to professional buildings as a restriction, so that we don't
end up having that rather than the residential units that we need. Home Occupation, which could be
a great thing to serve some of the needs of some of these residents in the building. School, think
of maybe a day care for some of the children that may be in these apartments or adult care that's
becoming so necessary today, as people are taking care of their elderly parents and still have to work.
Eleanor Oudekerk, who is on the committee for affordable housing, also was a nursing home administrator,
said, wouldn't it be nice if we could have a clinic there. This zone is set up for a clinic, and all
that type of thing. Tom, I thought of yours, of the single family homes that you would like of the
Cottage Hill type. It's not allowed in that zone, but I see in the future maybe we could start working
on some PUD' s that woul d cover thi s type of issue that are not covered by our present day PUD' s, but
that could come down the road. This piece of property will be developed over a long, long time, okay.
All right. If this property is re-zoned, it is agreed that the re-zoning will not go forward until,
Number One, the National Church Residences makes a commitment to put that structure on this piece of
property, which will be roughly five acres of this land, all right. The owner has proposed a formula
that he can live with, economically. I will say, and I don't want to say too much right now, but just
for background, the owner is aware, because of situation within his own family, of not just seniors,
but other people in the community who need housing adaptable to special needs, and that's one reason
why he is so interested in doing this on the remainder of the property. He has already looked at plans
for units and has already seen a building. We've done exactly what he's thinking of, a rather roomier
apartment than normal for one bedroom, to accommodate things like the special shower stalls, the door
ways that can be widened, the counters that can be lowered, and some apartments have counters at
different heights to accommodate the person who needs a lower and the person who needs a higher. So,
you know, he's really given a lot of thought to that. So, he's proposed this formula which is not
any of the one's I've covered for you yet, which is, the Church Group gets, on their five acres, plus
or minus they've got here, there are 40 units, which I believe is actually 41. I think it's 40 for
the seniors and one for the manager, if I remember that plan correctly. All right. Then, and everything
would be in an MR-5 zone, okay. In this 24 plus or minus acres, he would commit to at least 50 percent
would be senior citizens, handicapped, etc., people with special needs preference, okay. Then, all
right, and I'll go through a formula with you, I mean, and actual numbers. Of the remaining units,
after you take out the National Church Residence units, okay.
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MR. CARTIER-In other words, on 19 units?
MRS. MONAHAN-No. I'll do the formula later, because it gets confusing. At least 25 percent of those
total units will be made handicapped accessible right from the beginning of the time that any other
buildings except National Church Residence buildings start to go up. Now, let me give you an example,
and we're playing, here, with numbers, that there's 24 plus or minus acres, he's also committed to
the fact that he will sell the Town at least three acres for park. We figured about two acres, at
least, for roadways, right?
MR. MARTIN-Yes.
MRS. MONAHAN-So, we're down to 19 acres, plus or minus. The zoning is eight units to an acre.
MR. CAIMANO-Wait a minute, three acres for park, two acres streets and roads?
MRS. MONAHAN-Yes.
MR. CAIMANO-Nineteen acres left.
MRS. MONAHAN-He's also committed, and we haven't put any acreage on this, in fact, now I said, maybe
that should be concerned of what the Town buys, and he didn't seem he was too concerned about how he
got, or what will be used as a bikeway through the whole, and a bikeway will be the type that people
with wheelchairs can use. The kids can use it to go to school without getting out onto Aviation Road,
if we can let the school, you know, give us permission to..it will be for people who need these three
wheel jobies with the motorized end. It will be used for a lot of the senior citizens that like to
ri de the regul ar three wheel bi kes, 1 i ke hi g tri cycles. So, thi s bikeway woul d serve a mul ti tude of
needs to get people outdoors and recreation and safety and etc., okay.
MR. MARTIN-Now, wait a minute. You said starting with 24, right?
MRS. MONAHAN-All right. So, we take the five out.
MR. MARTIN-For the?
MRS. MONAHAN-Parks and the roadways.
MR. MARTIN-And then another five for the project itself, right?
MRS. MONAHAN-No. Well, wait a minute, yes. Didn't I take out enough, here? Yes, I did. No, you've
got to do it this way.
MR. MARTIN-Okay.
MRS. MONAHAN-Well, it will make a little difference doing it your way. My way is simpler, but your
way is more correct. You're going to be right, but let me do it my way first. Okay. We've got 24
acres. We're taking five that has no count at all.
MR. MARTIN-Right.
MRS. MONAHAN-So, we're down to 19. On those 19 acres, because that's really why you need MR-5 for
the seniors, too, in order to get this 41 units in.
MR. MARTIN-Right.
MRS. MONAHAN-And 19 acres, you can have 152 units. Now, this is presuming they're all residential,
and none of it's bei ng used for profess i ona 1 or anythi ng 1 ike that, because I want to keep the
calculation kind of simple, okay. All right. So, what you have to do, when you're figuring, take
the 152 units and divide by two. That gives you 76 in each column, 76 here, 76 there.
MR. MARTIN-Special use, right?
MRS. MONAHAN-Okay. Out of the 76, this is the senior side now, senior citizens, handicapped, etc.,
out of that 76, take 40 units, that's the NCR, National Church Residences, okay. That leaves you with
36 more units that, some place in this project has to go to seniors, handicapped, etc., preference,
okay.
MR. HAGAN-Yes, but that's going to give you a total of, what, 112?
MRS. MONAHAN-No, no. Wait a minute. Don't go ahead of me, or you're going to get mixed up. All right.
Now, to find out how many he is guaranteed to make handicapped accessible, forgetting NCR again, right
from the beginning, buildings he's putting up, okay, you've got to take, go back to the 152 units,
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take away the 40 senior citizens, NCR, gives you 112. So, he's saying, of those 112, he'll do 25 of
those handicapped accessible. There's 28 there. So, actually, what he's going to have left, when
you get all done here, is about 48 units that he can do whichever way he wants to because what you've
got is, you've got the 40 NCR. You've got another 36 senior citizens, handicapped, etc., and you've
got the 28 that he has committed to making handicapped accessible in this building, and what he is
going to do, any building that he builds will have to meet that 25 percent formula. So, lets say the
first building he put up, the whole building was, that would buy him credits for the next building.
He can do this in his own mix, okay. Now, did I explain that so everybody understands that?
MR. HAGAN-No, because somewhere along the line, my figures add up to a total of some 200 units when
you get all through.
MRS. MONAHAN-That's because you're putting some of them in twice. That's why you've got to calculate
it two different ways to get your 25 percent.
MR. MARTIN-I think the best way for you to negotiate this out would be not to deal with percentages
or anything, but just hard and fast numbers.
MRS. MONAHAN-We can't, because if we deal with hard and fast numbers, then that takes away the option
of someday putting any kind of adult care center there.
MR. MARTIN-I see what you're saying, yes.
MRS. MONAHAN-Your child care center, a clinic, a doctors office.
MR. MARTIN-Well, couldn't you do it by minimums and maximums, and not say.
MRS. MONAHAN-No. I think this is a good formula. It allows you the mix for different needs that may
arise. That's a trouble with our planning and zoning, it's too inflexible, and then it doesn't meet
the needs of the people that are out there in the community when we have the opportunity.
MR. BREWER-It could also be segregated...or is it going to be by itself?
MRS. MONAHAN-The 40 units, National Church Residence, will be on five acres, in a building that they
design, but hopefully done in a way, that's why we want them exposed, like, to be able to go to the
school games and functions at the school and so on and so forth.
MR. CARTIER-These 40 units are not going to be mixed in like everything else?
MRS. MONAHAN-They can't be. National Church Residence will be in one building.
MR. MARTIN-There's very stringent design standards with the grant.
MRS. MONAHAN-Yes.
MR. CARTIER-So, ultimately, we're going to look at a subdivision, first, on this piece of property,
to subdivide off the five acres from the 24?
MRS. MONAHAN-Yes.
MR. CARTIER-Okay. The other thing about going with just pure numbers is, that locks the Planning Board
out of the process, in terms of numbers.
MRS. MONAHAN-That's right.
MR. CARTIER-If we're talking percentages, and what Betty has given us, here, is maximum possible.
MRS. MONAHAN-Yes.
MR. CARTIER-Okay. If we go with just numbers, yes, this guy can put in X number of these kinds of
units and X number of these kinds of units, that blows the Planning Board right...
MR. MARTIN-Well, that's what I'm saying, maximums.
MRS. MONAHAN-It doesn't give you a chance to plan for the needs, I mean, we're not sure what kind of
needs, yet, are, I mean, how many people are in wheelchairs, how many people are paraplegic, plus the
fact you want a mixture of other people, like, I also see this as an opportunity for people, young
couples, or single people, coming here, industry, they can't find any place to live. It also gives
them a chance to qualify, someone needs an apartment, for a HUD subsidized grant that will be subsidized
directly to the tenant. Do you know the difference I'm trying to say?
MR. MARTIN-Yes, vouchers.
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MRS. MONAHAN-Okay. It also gives an opportunity, I see this with Queensbury Manor, and we really got
excited sitting around the table yesterday, thinking what could happen, here. The chance for his,
he's got apartments with townhouses out there in front, a chance for the flow back and forth as your
circumstances change. Lets, for instance, say we've got, lets take some different scenarios in town.
You've got a man and his wife living in one of these other apartments, okay. One of them gets arthritis
very, very badly. One of them gets some kind of an illness, God forbid, maybe terminal, maybe heart
or what, where they are 1 imited in what they can do and they have to have apartments. It gives them
a chance not to move to a whole other area, but to move sideways within there. You've got Prospect
School right up the street if you need that. You've got a mixed community there right now, in that
whole area. You've got the shopping areas that are convenient. You've got a bus can get in there.
MR. CAIMANO-I was going to ask you that. Where does the transit end there, now?
MRS. MONAHAN-They won't bring it to us. There's no concern with that whatsoever. I can promise you
that.
MR. MARTIN-It probably goes as far as the mall.
MR. CAIMANO-It goes as far as the mall.
MRS. MONAHAN-I think it goes, I'm not sure, John Burke, I think, too.
MR. CAIMANO-You're right. They won't extend up there?
MRS. MONAHAN-They would, sure. You've got the, yes, see, that's what I mean, a PUD, because this would
be a perfect PUD, but we can't wait for that. See, this is why planning can get so exciting, when
you get it finally, we get things so we can respond to these needs. Now we don't have the PUD vehicle
in here. So, we have to take what we have and find how we can use this to respond. Now, we even had
so much fun with this yesterday, that we took the site, named it, decided what we were going to call
the park. You all realize that this is the site of part of the old Lloyd Bennett air field, and Lloyd
Bennett, of course, was the pilot for Admiral Perry that flew him over the north pole and everything,
and we see an exciting thing, here, to name this park and complex that way, to have, I was saying,
I wanted my park, I wanted a shuffle board court for the seniors, and he said, we've got the runway
right there now, and we wish it would keep part of the historic runway and turn it into the shuffle
board court, and we'll meet at the runway, you could tell everybody. I mean, this thing has got such
good possibilities if we look at this, you know.
MR. CARTIER-What road is this?
MRS. MONAHAN-This would be Farr.
MR. CARTIER-Farr Lane?
MRS. MONAHAN-Yes, and this, we'd have the bikeway come in here. Now, this is not what we're doing
tonight, but I just want to tell you some of these plans, what we're going to try for. The school
wants to open up, be able to get into their fields behind here. So, we're thinking of a cooperative
thing with the school, that we could get in for emergency vehicles. This road could also serve them
there, and we can be helping an awful lot of things going on in this community.
MR. CARTIER-This is an actual road and bikeway? In other words, this would be an entrance to this?
MRS. MONAHAN-This is where it comes out to Fox Farm, okay.
MR. CARTIER-Right.
MRS. MONAHAN-But instead of making that a vehicular way, creating a lot of traffic on that road, it's
almost better if we can get the land from New York State, they own that land right there. We've got
to make some swi tches in order to make thi s good pattern that woul d we 1 i ke to make, and then we'll
have thi s other for the emergency, I mean, thi s is conceptual, okay. I just want to show you the
possibilities.
MR. CAlMANO-Just to let you know, Fox Farm can't take any more traffic without doing something to it.
MRS. MONAHAN-That's right, and we don't really want to put it on there, because we think that would
be the safe way to bring the bikes through, you know, and get them over here to the school.
MR. MARTIN-Who would build that roadway, Betty, the Town?
MRS. MONAHAN-This? That's up for discussion, right now.
MR. CARTIER-Well, he would have to build, and the Town would assume responsibility, I would assume.
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MRS. MONAHAN-Well, you know, maybe the Town needs to do something towards senior housing, too, but
that's up for some other discussion. So, anyway, any questions about what we're trying to do, and
I want to say, I tossed around the percentage with this developer. He said those are the percentages
that, economically, he can make it fly, to provide housing in there for people with special needs,
put some of these special apartments in town which, as far as I know, we have very few. I know, I
think, what, Regency might have a few in there for wheelchair. He's looked at one plan where the whole
bottom floor is wheelchair accessible, and if you put the other apartments upstairs and make. .like
that, but he said, we played with a lot of other percentages, and said, you know, even keeping his
rate of profit very low, as I said, he has a stake in this type of stuff from the family involvement,
to want to see a project like this started. We think we can make something, here, that will be a pilot
project in the State of New York. I'm talking about the whole thing. One other restriction, that
each site that is build should be restricted, that there will be test holes done for that septic system,
and he says, if he has to go to Wisconsin Mounds or something, he, you know, but he's willing for those
kinds of restrictions.
MR. CARTIER-Okay. As I understand it, what's going to happen, if this thing flies, is the five acres,
the senior housing is going to be built immediately. They'll be Phase I, if you will.
MRS. MONAHAN-Not immediately.
MR. CARTIER-Well, you know what I mean, before anything else gets done.
MRS. MONAHAN-Yes.
MR. CARTIER-And then the rest kind of gets phased in.
MRS. MONAHAN-Yes.
MR. CARTIER-Okay. Speaking for me, I am in general agreement with the concept of..Let me play devils
advocate. What's to prevent him, there may be an easy answer to this, from coming in and saying, in
effect, to H with the pharmacy and the clinics, I want to build strictly residential units in there,
and we end up with, potentially, 160.
MRS. MONAHAN-Well, he can. I'm just saying you need the flexibility in there, planning, to do these
other things if the need comes, you know, nobody knows what's down the future. I mean, whoever thought,
even 10 years ago, that so much of Queensbury's population was going to be the elderly and the retired,
and that's the trouble, we can't, I think, Pete, if we're going to do good planning, planning has to
be flexible and innovative, without wrecking an area. Do you know what I'm saying, and that's why
these restrictions go on there. If you try and you cross every T and dot every I, I thing you destroy
that flexibility in your response to the times and the needs out there. He is working with some very
good people in the field, and I think it's going to what comes down the pike, you know, right now,
maybe it will be residential, but if a doctor came and said, I want to, you know, this is going to
be a great place to put an office, we can allow it under this zoning.
MR. CARTIER-I don't have a problem with that.
MRS. MONAHAN-And, I mean, you know, he said himself that the buildings he puts up, he's going to talk
to an expert in this field in Town about the needs that are out there for some of these special
apartments, okay, but he said himself it will be over a period of many years before these are built.
He doesn't have to build out. He's not in the circumstance, and of also, you know, we talked about
the fact, well, something could happen so tomorrow you're not the guy doing it, you know. We all could
wal k out in front of a car at some time or other, and I told him that density and traffic problems
were one thing that really concerned your Board very, very much, and so, I think that this is, you
know, I think if you leave the flexibility in there, and you have a formula that you think you can
live with and he can live with, that then, as you do site plan for all these various projects, in stages
along the way, that's where you keep your control over it because of the restrictions that we've got
in.
MR. CAlMANO-Right.
MR. HAGAN-Yes, but, again, he can come through with the statement we hear so often, well, this is
allowable. If we don't put any restrictions.
MRS. MONAHAN-Well, we are putting a lot of restrictions. We're restricting this a lot from what he
could do if he were....
MR. HAGAN-I don't hear any numeral restrictions.
MRS. MONAHAN-You can't do it in numbers. We're doing it in percentages, because that's the only way
you can do it.
MR. MARTIN-What are the restrictions, again?
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MRS. MONAHAN-All right. Number One, the zoning doesn't go unless the National Church Group puts their
building in there, okay.
MR. MARTIN-Okay. For the whole 24 acres?
MRS. MONAHAN-That's the whole 24 acres. That's going, still back to the 24 plus or minus acres, at
least 50 percent will be senior citizen, handicap, people with special needs preference, and I hate
the word "handicap", but until somebody comes up with a new one, it's somebody that needs an apartment
that's different than what I can function in.
MR. MARTIN-Now, this is 50 percent of the remaining, after the 40 you subtracted?
MRS. MONAHAN-No. That's why we've got to, okay, then, and I mean, this is with restrictions, taking
out for the park and the road and the septic systems, and all that kind of stuff, then at least 25
percent of any units that go up, he calls them rentals, other than the Church Group, will remain
handicapped accessible right from the very first building that he puts up. So, he's made that commitment
to people with special needs, and as I said, that could be somebody with arthritis, heart. I have
a lot of friends who cannot carry groceries upstairs anymore. Those type of things, that, you
know,...now, if you want me to go through the numbers, again, how it breaks down?
MR. CAIMANO-No.
MRS. MONAHAN-Do you, Jim, want me to go through the numbers?
MR. HAGAN-No.
MR. CAIMANO-Let me just, as a neighbor, as a resident. .lets leave out the fact that we would be doing
a tremendous service for the handicapped and senior citizens of our area.
MRS. MONAHAN-Well, not just handicapped, because there will be other people in there.
MR. CAlMANO-Right, but lets talk about something else. Lets talk about planning for the neighborhood.
It's RR-3, right now?
MR. CARTIER-Yes.
MR. CAIMANO-And if you look at RR-3, and we're concerned about infrastructures and roads and traffic,
there's all kinds of things that could go in there, legally, under RR-3, that would cause us fits,
as neighbors. Number Two, we had a situation, a couple of years ago, where John.
MRS. MONAHAN-Excuse me. What type of uses allowed under MR-5, would give you fits as a neighbor?
MR. CAIMANO-RR-3.
MRS. MONAHAN-I mean, MR-5.
MR. CAIMANO-Well, for one thing, a golf course.
MRS. MONAHAN-Not under MR-5.
MR. CAIMANO-RR-3.
MRS. MONAHAN-I'm sorry.
MR. CARTIER-We're talking about the present zoning.
MRS. MONAHAN-All right.
MR. CAlMANO-A couple of years ago, a few years back, we had a similar situation, when you re-zoned,
across the road, where John Schutze now has three beautiful office buildings that enhanced, and it
was the perfect setting for what you envisioned as buffer zones between single family residential and
commercial zones. It was well done. It was well conceived. I remember that there were some people
who were very concerned about that, but considering what could have gone in there and what did, it
is a boon to that area, as far as a residential area is concerned. I think that, from a personal
standpoint, I haven't heard anything from anybody else, anti at all, it certainly is the best use that
I can think of for maintaining a relatively bucolic atmosphere in that area, as opposed to some things
that could go in there under RR-3.
MR. CARTIER-Okay. I agree with that. I guess my concern is, in going from an RR-3, in terms of
residential, we're going from a site that, under RR-3, would allow eight residential units, up to a
much larger number. . well over 100. I don't really have a problem with that, as long as this Planning
Board isn't locked beforehand, in terms of numbers. In other words, I don't havè a problem with saying,
50 percent
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is going to be such and such. I guess my question becomes, 50 percent of what? What is approved at
site plan? We're looking at a 20 year plan, here, but I think, from a Planning Board perspective,
we're going to have to have a pretty detailed look at what he's going to do with the remaining 19 acres.
MR. CAIMANO-At least conceptually, right?
MR. CARTIER-Conceptually, particularly in terms of getting clinics in there, the kinds of things that
you're talking about, that would be appropriate.
MRS. MONAHAN-Yes.
MR. CARTIER-I don't want to see us getting sandbagged into a corner where we're piecemealing, we're
looking at this 19 acres piecemeal.
MR. MARTIN-That's why I'd really like to see a planned unit development approach. I know this doesn't
qualify proper as a planned unit development, but what you're describing to me here, and what you
envision, and that is the best planning tool you have available.
MR. CARTIER-But he can still do it..
MR. CAIMANO-He can still do that, without holding it up.
MR. CARTIER-Within the allowable uses of the zone.
MR. MARTIN-Right.
MR. CARTIER-He can still do that, and I think what this Board is going to want to look at, correct
me if I'm wrong, is an overall conceptual plan as to how this thing is going to go.
MR. MARTIN-That would be the ideal.
MR. CARTIER-Which is what we do with PUD's anyway.
MR. HAGAN-Otherwise, how are you going to keep track of each individual plan that comes up?
MRS. MONAHAN-I think you all know the time frame that we're in.
MR. CAIMANO-Right.
MR. CARTIER-I don't have a problem with that.
MR. MARTIN-I understand that.
MRS. MONAHAN-Okay.
MR. BREWER-HypotheticaHy, if he came in and said that he's going to put the senior housing, you said
he's first going to put accessible.
MRS. MONAHAN-That is a condition of this re-zoning.
MR. BREWER-Accessible, handicapped, without.
MR. CAlMANO-No.
MRS. MONAHAN-No. The National Church Residences has a grant, $2,000,000.
MR. BREWER-I understand that.
MRS. MONAHAN-To put up senior housing in the Town of Queensbury. Now, I'm not sure if, in those units,
that he won't have anything to do with, once he seHs them the five acres, that's out of his hands.
They'll pay the recreation fee to the Town and we'll use some of that for the park, and once he starts
to build himself or anybody else in his name, the first building he puts up, 25 percent of those units
have got to be handicapped accessible. Now, if he decides he wants 50 percent or 100 percent, he can
buy some of this other 25 percent down the road. Do you know what I'm trying to say? Lets say you
decide, all right, it makes economic sense to build this whole building with all these special things
in it, all right. Then the next building that he says, no, it makes better sense to have them all
regular apartments, but he's got this 25 percent.
MR. CAIMANO-But the percentages are still there.
MRS. MONAHAN-So, as long as he's always even or ahead, he can't owe a debt when he does these kind
of things.
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MR. CARTIER-I think maybe the way to go at this is to think about this as we're looking at two phases.
Phase I is the National Church Group thing, that's the five acres. I don't think anybody here has
an argument with that. I think the questions come up with regard to what he's going to do within what
we could call Phase II of this thing, and I think what this Board wants to see, I know what I want
to see, is an overall conceptual plan that, over the course of whatever time frame he's talking about,
he's going to follow. I don't want him to think he's got 50 percent of whatever those units are, that
that means he's got eight units per acre. That eight units per acres actual buildout is subject to
site plan approval before the Planning Board.
MRS. MONAHAN-He realizes that he has to come in for site plan and everything.
MR. CARTIER-Okay. I want him to understand up front that whatever approvals or whatever's written
into this zone, is not something that bypasses, if you will, the site plan process and the Planning
Board process.
MRS. MONAHAN-No, but what he's saying is he can't go out and do planning, yet, without that zoning,
if you know what I'm trying to say. Otherwise, he's putting the cart before the horse.
MR. MARTIN-But the other thing, from a technical standpoint, and I agree with what Pete said, is that
in this area where this is a lot where there are proven concerns of permeability, it would be very
wise for him to know, from the get go, what areas, what is the maximum allowed density there, from
these technical limitations, from the standpoint of these technical limitations. That's another planned
unit development type, along those lines.
MRS. MONAHAN-He realizes, and Paul was there during part of our conversation, Paul, I think you agree
with me, that he realizes that he must do test sporings at every site that a building is proposed.
MR. MARTIN-Yes, but what I'm saying, though, is don't do it incrementally, do a test hole sporing for
this group here. Next year I want to sell another group, so now I do test holes, and then again, all
of a sudden, well, I've reached a limit, you know, he should know that limit now.
MRS. MONAHAN-If the test sporings, all the type of work you do when..septic systems, won't support
it, they can't go.
MR. CARTIER-I would suggest to him that before he gets into spending a whole lot of money on this other
19 acres, he comes in to this Board for a workshop session, okay, on an informal basis, and we let
him know our concerns, before he dumps a whole bunch of money into planning and engineering of this
thing. In other words, he almost kind of goes through the subdivision, sort of, process.
MRS. MONAHAN-Yes. I think once you talk to him and really know what he plans for this, that you're
going to feel as good as I do, and I know what you've heard before, and I realize that, but I'm really,
as I said, we had a great thing for about two hours of throwing ideas on the table, once just goes
on top of another, of what we can do to serve people in this community that are not being served at
thi s present time, ei ther because, all ri ght, here's another example of where these apartments coul d
fit in. A man and his wife reach retirement and they've got a house. It's an ordinary house. ..happen
to have a $200,000 house. They sell it. They put the money in the bank because they don't have to
pay any income tax on it, and they've got the interest, and with their social security and not much
else, okay. They can afford some apartments that are going to run maybe $500 a month, but they can't
afford the ones in Queensbury that are $7, $8, and $900 a month, and then they've got the opportunity,
if one of them gets incapacitated for any reason, of moving sideways in that same area into an apartment
that's for that, and they haven't pulled up their whole roots and changed their whole way of life.
MR. CARTIER-I understand what you're saying.
MRS. MONAHAN-Now, the only thing, I think, when you make a recommendation, I would like to just decide
how many of these MR units or however you want to do it, I think you should restrict the number of
professional buildings, and I ran after him and said do you care if we restrict it, and he said that's
entirely up to you. So, he has no problem with that.
MR. CARTIER-That's very hard for us to do, at this stage.
MRS. MONAHAN-Paul, if they don't do it now, is there anything that would prevent any developer, lets
say this gentleman whom I have a lot of confidence in, as I said, God forbid, tomorrow, and we've got
somebody else we're dealing with. If we don't put some kind of restrictions in this right now, and
I know you told me we should put in for the septic system type of thing, restrictions, could they
conceivably turn that other 19 acres into as many professional buildings as would be allowed there
under the way that MR-5 zone is set up?
MR. DUSEK-As I understand the conditions that you're currently indicating, which would basically be
to re-zone the area to MR-5 subject to certain conditions, exactly the way I see it right now, I think
that they could conceivably build anything else that's in that district, including office buildings,
and not have to build housing.
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MRS. t«JNAHAN-Any residential. So, how can we word that, so that the Planning Board has a right, at
site plan review, to approve the appropriate mix of professional buildings and other uses that are
allowed in this zone along with residential that carries out the intent of, the social needs of why
we are re-zoning this, because we're re-zoning this for social needs.
MR. CARTIER-Right.
MR. DUSEK-I don't know that I can give you an answer off the top of my head, but I can give you some
guidelines, and guidelines would have to be that whatever we ultimately come up with, it is not something
that can be discretionary, that just leaves it open ended, in other words, that you can arbitrarily
decide one way or another. You need some sort of a formula, some sort of guidelines that would give
an indication as to what the correct result is.
MRS. MONAHAN-Could it be something like, in order for a professional building to be allowed in this
particular MR zone, the applicant would have to prove that the occupancy, the type of tenants in this
building would benefit the, I'm just trying to throw out things. Let me just think. If we don't
brainstorm things, we'll never get to good answers, that would benefit those people for whom these
units, the unique needs or something.
MR. CARTIER-Two things, Number One, you're asking the Planning Board to do that and, recognize, that's
a Town Board function. We're recommending with regard to the re-zoning only. The kind of restrictions
you're talking about are going to come from the Town Board.
MRS. MONAHAN-I know, but you guys are going to work with this, so lets all work with it.
MR. CARTIER-Certainly, I don't have a problem with that. Secondly, maybe the way to get at what you're
talking about is that for every, and again I'm brainstorming off the top of my head, here, for every
X number of residential units built, you must provide a certain square footage of professional office
space.
MRS. MONAHAN-Not must, but you could. You have the right to have that much.
MR. CARTIER-Maybe then you could do it that way, somehow.
MRS. t«JNAHAN-But this is one thing, that's why a PUD is so much better.
MR. BREWER-Is that excluding the five acres for the .
MRS. t«JNAHAN-No, because they need those.
MR. CAlMANO-The only reason I was shaking my head was that what you were doing was a double edge sword.
It was restrictive to the person who wanted to put in the private business.
MRS. t«JNAHAN-I realize, but he's willing to do that. So, we have some guarantee this whole thing is
not going to go professional.
MR. CAlMANO-But the person investing money for that business may not be willing to do it because it's
so restrictive on him or her.
MR. CARTIER-Well, I think what we need to do is kind of step back and realize that what we're doing
here is creating a special needs zone that's got an MR-5 label hanging on it.
MRS. t«JNAHAN-That's right, because that's the only thing we can hang onto it.
MR. MARTIN-Well,..see if we can do a PUD without the 30 acres.
MR. CARTIER-I don't know how you can.
MR. CAIMANO-Why? They made the law, right, or is that a State law?
MR. DUSEK-No. It's Town law, but it's mandatory under Town law.
MRS. MONAHAN-And it's only for residential. Paul, we said that it's only for residential units, but
then we've got Hiland that's got more than residential units in it.
MR. CARTIER-Yes, but it's designed, the stuff in the PUD is designed to serve residents..
MR. MARTIN-I just have one question. I just want to have this answered so I can walk away from this
and say I asked everything. Was there any discussion of a UR-I0?
MRS. MONAHAN-Yes, and he couldn't get the units there to make it economically feasible for what he's
trying to do, for special needs.
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MR. MARTIN-As someone who writes zoning ordinances, I get caught up in the purposes, although some
people read right by them. MR-5 "Multi Family Residential zones are designated to provide for an
anticipated increasing demand for high density multifamily housing and professional office building
and buildings in areas located near commercial services subject to intense development pressure."
UR-lO "Encompasses mostly older more traditional high density neighborhoods in Queensbury. Secondly,
areas subject to intense development pressure located near service areas or zones similarly. This
protects and enhances the urban character while providing adequate opportunity for in-fill and high
density housing." UR-I0 permitted uses "Multifamily dwellings, including apartments of fewer than
100 units, professional office, incidental to residential use, planned unit development, school,
churches, synagogue, hospital, nursing home, or health related facility, such as outpatient clinic,
laboratory or physical therapy facility, day care center and duplex."
MRS. MONAHAN-The uses are great, but it won't give him the density so he can do the.
MR. MARTIN-Okay, and that's strictly what it was, the economic consideration?
MRS. MONAHAN-Yes.
MR. HAGAN-Because you said in the beginning, less than 100.
MR. CAIMANO-Right.
MRS. MONAHAN-Well, that's all right because everyone of these units would be less than, of the
units..would be less.
MR. MARTIN-Well, I guess in my heart I was hoping we'd be saying, here's the parcel five acres MR-5
for the senior, and the rest is UR-I0.
MRS. MONAHAN-I suggested that and he said, economically, to do for these people, the ones that need
specially equipped apartments, he cannot do it with that kind of a density.
MR. MARTIN-Okay.
MR. CARTIER-But suppose, when he comes for site plan and we look at site specific things, we decide
that it can't handle the density.
MRS. MONAHAN-He has to prove that he can put that kind of site, you've got that guarantee in here,
that he has to prove that.
MR. CARTIER-As long as he understands that.
MRS. MONAHAN-Yes, he does.
MR. DUSEK-The only way you could do a PUD is if they went in and revised the current legislation
effecting PUD's, and the only thing about doing that.
MR. MARTIN-You couldn't do it project specific?
MR. DUSEK-Well, special legislation, sure, but it's going to be a lot more work.
MR. CARTIER-And frankly, the way the new PUD zone is written, it's gone from 30 acres to...
MR. DUSEK-Jim, what I'd be troubled with is that, first of all, the answers would be. .legislation for
a particular PUD, which would take some time to do, because it would have to be fairly involved. The
second alternative, which may seem easy may be simply to say, well, we'll revise the current Ordinance
to reduce the acres to, say, 20, instead of 30. The problem, though, is that then you're going to
have to go through and look over the entire PUD to make sure that you don't run into problems with
that new size. It may work, but I just don't know, without studying that.
MRS. MONAHAN-All right. This is down in the future, and maybe could even effect this project, but
we can't do this in time, in the future.
MR. MARTIN-I was going to say, could the Town Board structure their approval, simply outline your
approval according to what the PUD wording is in there?
MRS. MONAHAN-What I'm think is maybe we need to legislate for different types of PUD's in this town
or overlay zones or whatever. There's kind of situations that the 50 and the 100 acres address, and
there's the kind, smaller ones that address, like, a neighborhood type of a situation, where you're
trying to create a small neighborhood.
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MR. CARTIER-See, I don't think a PUD situation fits, here, simply because a PUD is designed to allow
you to do things you couldn't normally do in the zone, okay, and here's where we're looking at, all
the uses that are listed are permitted uses in this zone.
MR. MARTIN-But, what it does allow you to do is it allows you to plan, early on, as to what type uses
are you going to put and where.
MR. CAIMANO-I think we need to keep track of where we are, here. We're at a very early stage. The
public hasn't had a chance at this yet. All we're doing is moving the thing along.
MRS. MONAHAN-I will tell you one thing, we've got some PUD's right on the books now, that you're going
to come in and see them the...those PUD's get revised, because of the economic climate and the different
things. Now, Lee and I were looking over the Master Plan and, you know, this was one comment we have
to make, relative to defending this, that those rules, and think about this, were written for the
economic and demographic conditions of the 80's, and the 90's have changed a lot in this area.
MR. MARTIN-As a result of the 80's.
MR. CAlMANO-As a result of the 80's, right.
MR. CARTIER-Well, the old cliche, the Master Plan's good for five years.
MRS. MONAHAN-Yes, absolutely, but don't forget all the years you spent working on it, that the things
were changing right then, but you couldn't catch up with it.
MR. CARTIER-That's right, we were just getting less behind.
MRS. MONAHAN-Yes.
MR. CAIMANO-Well, onward and upward, here.
MR. MARTIN-Yes, I think we're ready for a recommendation of some sort, here. All I'm concerned with,
Betty, is I see you have all these wonderful, you envision all these wonderful things for this parcel,
and I agree. All I would like to do is somehow try and say, yes, this is what we want here, and not,
and I've heard it said before, well, I really tried to do that, but the economic conditions weren't
right. I've just got to put up 100 and some odd units of housing here, and that's it.
MR. CAlMANO-Right. I don't want to have that happen because, not only will the neighbors run me over
with a truck, but I'll run myself over with a truck.
MR. MARTIN-Look at the Diehl business, here. Well, I had 48 units, but the economic conditions aren't
right. I need to double it.
MRS. MONAHAN-But you've got percentages in here that are going to hold him to certain standards.
MR. MARTIN-Yes, but, no, I'm talking about your professional offices, and this mixed use type.
MRS. MONAHAN-I know, and that's why I'm saying, they may never have them, but this allows things that
would be a natural offshoot to serve this community, but now the only thing is, or maybe we have to
worry about that when we do this, Paul, about putting some restrictions in there about the professional
offices.
MR. MARTIN-See, that's what I'm saying, though, in effect, you coul d develop thi s as a, you're goi ng
to outline your restrictions or put them in some sort of legal document. You simply reference the
PUD and the development restrictions along that outline.
MRS. MONAHAN-Are they the same restrictions that we want, that are in the PUD?
MR. MARTIN-Or you can use that structure to develop that outline.
MRS. MONAHAN-Where's the PUD in here, Paul?
MR. CARTIER-Article XV.
MR. DUSEK-I know what you're saying and I think, conceptually, it makes sense. I just don't know,
from putting it to practice. First of all there's two issues. One is, obviously, drafting, and I
guess I just can't visualize it, right off the top, how that would be, because you're not going to
just put a sentence in there saying, this will be developed in the same manner as PUD's. You're going
to go through the full PUD Ordinance and actually mark off those sections that would be applicable
in this instance and make them conditions. I think that's what you're saying.
MR. MARTIN-Right.
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MR. DUSEK-I mean, that's possible, and you'd have to review through it. The only concern I have is
I understand the Town Board's under, they expect me to have something drafted by.
MRS. MONAHAN-Tomorrow.
MR. DUSEK-If there's any resistance on my part, Jim, that's the only one, is that I just don't know
if I could conceivably do that in that short time frame that I'm under.
MR. MARTIN-I can understand why you're so excited, but I just don't want.
MRS. MONAHAN-I know what you're saying.
MR. CAIMANO-Well, one of the things is the reality of it. How many units will the Church have?
MR. MARTIN-Forty one.
MR. CAIMANO-Forty one units. Well, it's not realistic to assume that anybody will invest in a
professional type operation that will only benefit...
MRS. MONAHAN-That's right, you'd have to get more units there.
MR. MARTIN-Believe me, Betty, now, I hope you're not envisioning this really state of the art or
aesthetically pleasing facility, here, for this. We're looking at dormitory stuff for that senior
housing.
MRS. MONAHAN-I beg your pardon. The one that they brought in, Jerry has made the comment he expects
one a little bit more..for Queensbury.
MR. MARTIN-I know those grant applications and they don't like frills.
MRS. MONAHAN-Actually, the one that the architect brought in did have more to it and aesthetics from
the outside than what...
MR. MARTIN-It is the literal chicken coop.
MRS. MONAHAN-. .but I will tell you one thing, the apartments inside are laid out the best of any of
them I've seen.
MR. MARTIN-They're gorgeous.
MR. CAIMANO-You're talking about the outside.
MR. MARTIN-I'm talking about the physical.
MRS. MONAHAN-It's a box.
MR. MARTIN-Yes. It's a box with a hallway down the center and all these little apartments inside.
MRS. MONAHAN-They do do an L, which, if that would be better.
MR. CARTIER-Well, I would remind you that we have no architectural review ordinance in this Town.
MR. MARTIN-I'm talking about the requirements for the grant application are such that they don't like
to see right hand corners.
MRS. MONAHAN-But I will say that, inside, and I've been in a lot of them right here in town, inside
those apartments are roomier and more flexible. You have more chances to be using different sized
furniture in different places. The storage is probably the best than even a lot of regular apartments
that I've seen.
MR. CAIMANO-Were you on the Board when..the place on Quaker Road was cut up, the orange mess?
MR. CARTIER-The orange mess? What's the orange mess?
MR. CAlMANO-Go a little further east on Quaker Road.
MR. CARTIER-I can't think.
MR. CAIMANO-You can't think. That's what bothers me is that everybody complains about us.
MR. CARTIER-Are you talking about the lumber place?
MR. CAIMANO-Yes.
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MR. CARTIER-No. I wasn't on the Board then.
MRS. MONAHAN-I'm not even sure we had zoning then.
MR. MARTIN-That was a long time ago. That's been there since '68, '67.
MR. CAIMANO-Are you going to allow any questions from the public?
MR. CARTIER-Does the Board care to take questions? If you'd just give us your name for the record.
DEBBIE COLLIN
MRS. COLLIN-Yes. I'm Debbie Collin and I live at 16 Fox Farm Road, not Fox Hollow, Fox Farm. I am
probably one of the four residences on Fox Farm Road, and I am also a life long resident of Queensbury.
I lived 19 years at Carlton Drive before my husband and I finally got to a point where we could build
our dream house, so to speak.
MR. CARTIER-You've been in talking to us before.
MRS. COLLIN-Yes, I have. We'll go back to those Town Zoning Board meetings. I was at everyone.
It took me a year and a half to buy my property because I waited for, it used to be zoned, right across,
Fox Farm was split down the middle. The side that I wanted to buy was Rural Residential One Acre.
The other side was, I think, UR-I0.
MR. CARTIER-UR-I0.
MRS. COLLIN-And so we were delighted when it was changed to RR-3 because we thought, well, this is
kind of a nice protection, and I believe Mr. Bryan was at those same Town Board meetings. A couple
of things come up. I am not against senior citizen housing. The five acres is fine. I'm concerned
about the 24. I have a question about the numbers, too. I'm a little confused.
MR. CARTIER-It's not five acres. MR-5 is 5,000 square feet.
MRS. COLLIN-The five acres for senior citizens is fine, okay, and as I look at my numbers one of my
questions, three acres, five acres is for NCR, right?
MR. CARTIER-Correct.
MRS. COLLIN-Three acres for park, two acres for streets and roads. Okay. So that reduces his 19 acres,
then, down to 14 acres, is that correct.
MR. MARTIN-That's what I was saying. So, you have 14 times 8.
MRS. MONAHAN-I didn't take out, but that's because I..for senior citizens.
MRS. COLLIN-I just wanted to make that clear. Okay, so he's dealing with 14 acres, then, for his,
okay. All right. I have a concern about a domino situation. I've done a lot of research, and I went
up to the County and I looked at the Tax Map, and I found out who owned everything, and I was familiar
with Buckley Bryan's, you know, how much he owned, but Mr. Farone, Tom Farone, I don't know if he's
here, he owns 120 acres that borders to Buckley Bryan's piece. My concern is a domino effect, is,
gee, let this guy do it, because Tom, as you know, built Dixon Heights, and so I was very, that's why
we were glad to see his acreage go for RR-3. We thought, he can build either way. He's a contractor.
He can go with. I didn't realize golf courses could go on RR-3, but that's another question. My
concern, living right across the street from Buckley Bryan's property is, I'd like to see the woods
that I now look at left. I'd like to see that buffer zone untouched, totally untouched. If you want
to put a small bikeway in there, I would maybe agree to that.
MRS. MONAHAN-That was your idea.
MRS. COLLIN-I know it is. Yes, I did come up with that idea and I did talk to Betty about that, because
1 ivi ng on Carl ton Dri ve, we 1 i ved near Robert Gardens apartments, and one of the thi ngs we enjoyed
being, we lived in kind of a semi retirement community. We were in an older community, and most of
the people, their kids have grown up. We happen to be the young couple who found one of the houses
that the older people had moved on to an apartment maybe, but we had the three wheel bicycle, we used
to call them the speed demons. These little ladies with their three wheeled bicycles riding around,
but they used to have to come through a field to get from Robert Gardens, which was probably, I've
often thought that would have been nice if that was accessible to them, instead of pushing their bikes
through fields, but it was nice there because it was a quiet community. I would like you to understand
my ploy being one of residents on Fox Farm Road, that I'd like to see the woods there. We left a lot
of woods on our piece, just because when I came to all those Town Zoning Master Plans or whatever they
were, 20 years down the road, maybe, there's going to be a road that comes to Round Pond Road, so we
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left a lot of our trees. So, I guess I'd like to see that buffer, not only for myself, but for these
senior citizens, because if this does become the proposed road that that company said would be a good
idea, and it does make a lot of sense, trees do protect for noise level. I'm very concerned about
septic system. The other reason I understood that it became RR-3 is because of the percolation level
there. That has changed, I guess to new testing that Buckley Bryan has done.
MR. CARTIER-No. My understanding is that it's the same, if I read that report right, it's the same
report we looked at back in '88, '89.
MR. CAIMANO-But one of the things their doing, though, is putting a restriction, that every time he
does something, he has to dig up.
MRS. COLLIN-Yes. Those woods, by the way, are quite lovely. We walk through them a lot, and that
roadway. There are a lot of test holes in there now. I don't know if Mr. Farone has done them or
if the Town has done them. It's about 150 feet of sand, from what I remember, when they drilled for
the school in that area. Now I know, as the level changes, but I would not want to see what they have
a John Burke's which is, I believe, called an open settling bed, or something of that. I wouldn't
want to see an open pit thing li ke that. I'm concerned about the sewer and what are you going to do
with the septic. Thank you for saying that Fox Farm Road can't take anymore traffic.
MR. CAIMANO-Well, it can't.
MRS. COLLIN-It's a dead end there, but when you go out to Aviation and Potter.
MR. CAIMANO-It's down right dangerous.
MRS. COLLIN-Well, I won't let my children stand for the bus there. So, I guess those are basically
my concerns. I think the park is a great idea, and I'd invite any of you to come for a walk with my
husband and I through those woods, not only for the senior citizens, but I think, because you've got
the school so adjacent, you've got your natural parking for cross country, for, there's lady slippers
galore that grow in there. There's Rush Pond that could be used for the schools for science activities,
or canoeing.
MRS. MONAHAN-Now, we're getting over, you know, not on Bryan's land.
MRS. COLLIN-We're getting into Farone's land.
MR. CAIMANO-So, basically, you're concerned that there might be a slop over and he would come in and
do the same thing?
MRS. COLLIN-Yes. I'm concerned about the domino effect, and I know that Mr. Smith, on the corner of
Aviation and Fox Farm, he has that little parcel that you probably, if you live up there, Nick, I don't
know where you live, there's a little for sale sign. He wanted that re-zoned for professional building.
MRS. MONAHAN-Debbie, is that on the right or the left of that corner, if I'm going towards West Mountain?
MRS. COLLIN-It's on the right.
MR. CAlMANO-It's before Fox Farm.
MRS. MONAHAN-Yes. I know where you mean, now.
MRS. COLLIN-You turn right there and then there's a vacant land and then there's the little original
farm house that is there. I know that man wanted to have that re-zoned for professional.
MR. CAlMANO-That's RR-3 right now, right? The whole thing is RR-3?
MRS. COLLIN-Yes, the whole thing went RR-3, and that was our, like I said, we were not going to buy
there. We waited a year and a half, and I'm not against senior citizens.
MR. CAlMANO-Actually, that really is a good buffer, if you can keep it as a buffer.
MRS. COLLIN-Yes, it is nice.
MR. CAIMANO-The senior citizens thing would be a good buffer.
MRS. MONAHAN-Yes. It's where you go from one use to another, and I think that's what you people do,
as a Planning Board, when you do site plan, the buffers and all this type of thing.
MR. CARTIER-I was just going to say that.
MRS. MONAHAN-Debbie, I don't want to scare you, but look at the uses allowed in RR-3A.
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MRS. COLLIN-I guess I didn't realize RR-3 meant (TAPE TURNED) We also bought, in that whole area you'll
realize, it's not totally RR-3. Part of Farone is 42 Environmental.
MR. CARTIER-Yes. I guess a couple of things would occur to me. One is, in terms of the buffer, here's
a place where we ought to consider clustering. In fact, the senior housing unit is already going to
be clustered, and he's got the room to.
MR. MARTIN-Well, I think that's the way he's going to be able to get by the requirements for permeability
is through clustering.
MR. CARTIER-Possibly. The other thing is, recognize that all we're doing, here, tonight, as a Planning
Board is making a recommendation that carries absolutely no legal weight with the Town Board. The
only weight it carries is what the Town Board decides to carry.
MRS. COLLIN-Okay.
MR. CARTIER-All of the things you're saying, I think, need to be also said at the re-zoning public
hearing and also at the site plan when, for lack of a better name at this point, Phase I and Phase
II come in.
MRS. COLLIN-Okay. I wasn't sure how many places I was supposed to show up.
MR. MARTIN-Well, the real important one is with the Town Board tomorrow night. I think we're to the
point of a motion, here.
MR. CARTIER-Okay. First of all, just in terms of procedurally, I think what we have to do is rescind
our previous motion.
MR. MARTIN-Why don't we totally just rescind it and then we can restate it.
MR. CARTIER-Okay. It's a motion of, correct me if I'm wrong, September 17th.
MRS. MONAHAN-Is that the right one?
MR. CAIMANO-Right.
MR. CARTIER-Okay. So, we can entertain a motion to rescind that, at this point.
MOTION TO RESCIND OUR PREVIOUS MOTION P4-91 OF SEPTEMBER 17TH, Introduced by James Martin who moved
for its adoption, seconded by Timothy Brewer:
For the purpose of a restatement of the intent of the motion.
Duly adopted this 30th day of September, 1991, by the following vote:
AYES: Mr. Caimano, Mr. Martin, Mr. Hagan. Mr. Brewer, Mr. Cartier
NOES: NONE
ABSENT: Mr. LaPoint, Mrs. Pulver
MR. CARTIER-Okay. The motion is rescinded. We can now entertain a motion with regard to recommendation
of the re-zoning. Just a quick comment, here. I guess the thing that bothers me, and, again, I'm
not opposed to thi s project. We're looking at thi s from a very.. brush strokes and I want, I guess,
the Town Board to understand that our motion is based on the fact that we are looking at a very broad
concept here. The nitty gritty does not show up. The detail is going to show up at site plan, and
restrictions by the Town Board.
MRS. MONAHAN-Yes.
MR. MARTIN-Right. I was just going to say that we should attempt to word the motion in generalized
terms and give the Town Board some guidance as to what you should look at. So, 1'11 try and start
it off. I'm certainly open to any discussion or correction.
MRS. MONAHAN-Excuse me. If I could jump in, I don't know if I should do this, Paul, or not. If I'm
not doing legal procedure, slap me, but I think the first restriction you should say, you know, if
you're going to recolllllend this, that this is only recommended to be re-zoned if the National Church
Residence goes on it. That should be the very first thing that comes down the pike.
MR. MARTIN-Okay.
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MR. CAlMANO-Why don't start the thing by simply saying that this motion is contingent upon that.
MR. CARTIER-All right. Lets do a quick. .of everything we want and then put a motion together from
that.
MR. MARTIN-Yes, lets outline this, here, first.
MR. CARTIER-Only if NCR does what?
MRS. MONAHAN-Only if the agreement is reached, Paul, and you can word this better than I can, between
the owner and NCR.
MR. DUSEK-I think it might be easier, rather than getting into that part of it, Betty, would just be
to say, it's contingent upon the development, lets see, you want to issue a building permit or CO or
something that will trigger that building. I don't think I'd even worry about the agreement between
the parties.
MRS. MONAHAN-That's true, that's good.
MR. MARTIN-That's true.
MRS. MONAHAN-That's even tougher.
MR. DUSEK-So, maybe, are you looking for, maybe that the.
MR. CARTIER-The zoning contingent upon issuance of a building permit.
MR. MARTIN-Of a CO.
MRS. MONAHAN-Now, wait a minute, because they can't sign the agreement unless they know the re-zoning
is going through. So, we've got to be careful that we don't stop that.
MR. MARTIN-Why don't we say, contingent upon an agreement between National Church Residences and the
present property owner for the purposes of development of a senior housing project funded through the
202 Program.
MR. DUSEK-The only problem with that is, what if they have an agreement but it falls apart, or what
if the agreement.
MR. CARTIER-Or the re-zoning falls apart.
MR. DUSEK-Right. You're saying, okay, contingent upon an agreement, see the problem is is that the
zoning, once it kicks in, the only way it's going to kick out is if you go through a legislative process
again. So, if you make it contingent upon the happening of the agreement, it then kicks in at that
point, and there's no getting rid of it. So, if the agreement falls apart after the fact, the zoning
is still there.
MR. MARTIN-I see.
MRS. MONAHAN-But back up and figure out, how do we structure it so that National Church Residence says,
I'm not going to sign an option on that land because you don't have the right zoning.
MR. DUSEK-Well, no, if you have all the zoning in place except for the issuance, in other words, the
whole zoning comes into bearing at the time the building permit is issued. If that's the only
contingency.
MR. MARTIN-Well, yes, that would be good enough for signing off.
MRS. MONAHAN-Is it?
MR. MARTIN- Yes.
MR. DUSEK-They should have no problem. That's the only thing, and that's just a matter of them taking
the initiative to apply for the building permit.
MR. MARTIN-Yes. That's just like if you were going to buy a house that had an office on the first
floor of it and a dwelling on the first floor, you would buy that contingent upon the allowable use
of a first floor office or something like that, the same type of a thing.
MRS. MONAHAN-That doesn't stop them from signing grant papers and?
MR. DUSEK-I don't know what their grant situation is, and, obviously, we can explore this with them,
but at least for purposes of this Board, that may be the way to make sure that your contingency's in
place.
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MR. MARTIN-All they'd need is the option.
MR. CAIMANO-Yes, but I mean, if you find out, between now and the time that the Town Board has to pass
it, that there's something else, you can always change that. All we're concerned about is giving the
Town Board a recommendation.
MRS. MONAHAN-And all we're doing is setting the public hearing to show HUD that we have good faith,
you know. So, if we have to do any adjusting.
MR. CAIMANO-Right. Well, lets just do it.
MR. DUSEK-You may want to keep it loose, in terms of contingent upon the building permit or some other
equivalent mechanism, to be sure that, in fact, the senior citizens project sponsored by National Church
Residences is in fact built. In other words, that it's contingent in some fashion. I think that's
the message you're trying to get through to the Town Board.
MR. CAIMANO-Right.
MR. CARTIER-I think that's where we were going, and you lost me, in terms of, if they don't have this
agreement, the zoning still stands. I don't follow that.
MR. MARTIN-If you made it contingent upon the agreements.
MRS. MONAHAN-He's trying to structure it so the zoning goes down the tubes if they don't get that.
MR. MARTIN-Okay. They go ahead and sign the agreement. The zoning is enacted. The property is
re-zoned.
MR. CARTIER-Right.
MR. MARTIN-Changed for good.
MR. CARTIER-Okay.
MR. MARTIN-Termination clause in the agreement kicks in 90 days later. The zoning's still in pl ace.
No project.
MR. DUSEK-That's the problem, see, they're going to read that...
MR. CAlMANO-And, in this case, he's talking about a building permit which is far...
MR. MARTIN-What he's saying is, bricks and mortar are in the ground. There's your senior housing
complex. It's started, you know, or a building permit is issued, now.
MR. CAIMANO-I still say that we're going way beyond the bounds of what we need to do. All we're doing
is conceptually telling the Town Board, go ahead with this thing. It's up to the Town Board to do
this.
MR. CARTIER-So, we can make a recommendation as to approval with regard to the conceptual matters and
give the Town Board a list of things. All right. Okay. Then, lets go back to where we started.
Very quickly, what's a list of things we want the Board to consider?
MR. MARTIN-Well, we want the senior housing project to be built.
MR. CARTIER-Okay. What else?
MR. MARTIN-Do you want the park?
MR. CAlMANO-Yes.
MR. BREWER-Bikeway.
MR. CARTIER-Bikeway.
MR. MARTIN-Do you want.
MR. BREWER-Buffer.
MR. CARTIER-Buffer.
MR. MARTIN-That's something I wanted to..to address the concerns of the neighbors. I would say we're
looking at, maybe, 30, 50 foot buffers, at the point of site plan review, between this lot and
neighboring residences.
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MRS. MONAHAN-Okay, because I'm wondering if we want a buffer between there and the school property
because that's where, maybe, you're road's, going to have to go, do you know what I mean?
MR. CAlMANO-The reality of it is, as you would like to do, we want to keep this residential friendly.
MRS. MONAHAN-Why can't we say something like that?
MR. CAlMANO-Do it.
MR. MONAHAN-Can we say something like that, Paul?
MR. DUSEK-Sure.
MR. CARTIER-The other thing, by the way, this is going to be a Type I review when it comes to us, you
know, for site plan.
MRS. MONAHAN-Yes, which is the real tough one, right?
MR. CARTIER-Yes.
MR. MONAHAN-With all the long papers and everything. I think everybody's aware of that. I didn't
expect you to rubber stamp.
MR. MARTIN-No. We're not saying that.
MR. CARTIER-Okay. Senior housing, park, bikeway, buffering, residential friendly to neighboring
residentials, is what we mean by that?
MR. CAIMANO-Yes.
MR. MARTIN-Okay.
MR. CARTIER-Density, perc rates, clustering. Do you want to recommend?
MR. MARTIN-Yes. Residential development be clustered to the greatest extent possible.
MR. CARTIER-Because what we're doing here is we're giving the guy a direction that we're going to want
to see...
MR. CAIMANO-The testing has got to go in there, that you talked about.
MRS. MONAHAN-Yes. The testing needs to go in.
MR. CARTIER-Site specific septic testing.
MR. MARTIN-I would like to see, at the earliest point possible, to encompass all of this, a conceptual
development plan for the entire 24 acres.
MRS. MONAHAN-But do we want that in the re-zoning type of thing, Paul?
MR. CAIMANO-No. What I'm saying is, this is our notes to you.
MRS. MONAHAN-All right.
MR. CARTIER-All we're doing is raising flags.
MR. CAIMANO-Some consideration has to be given to the traffic situation.
MR. MARTIN-You might as well say, and all infrastructure.
MR. CAIMANO-And all infrastructure. Just say, infrastructure including traffic.
MR. CARTIER-Does zoning become a Type I?
MR. DUSEK-I was going to say, I don't know that this is a Type I action at all, for any reason.
MR. CARTIER-It has over 100 dwelling unit potential. That makes it a Type I.
MR. MARTIN-Well, 100 dwelling units not on a public water or sewer.
MRS. MONAHAN-It will be on water.
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MR. DUSEK-I didn't bring my SEQRA booklet with me.
MR. MARTIN-I'm almost certain this is going to trip one of them.
MR. CARTIER-Because I looked it up in here. It is a Type I.
MR. DUSEK-Don't be mislead by that.
MR. MARTIN-No. That's Type I, in terms of the Ordinance, not Type I in terms of SEQRA.
MR. CARTIER-Okay.
MR. MARTIN-But I think it is going to trip the one for SEQRA.
MR. DUSEK-Okay, if that's the case, then we're going to have to go back and do a Long Form.
MR. CARTIER-For the re-zoning.
MR. CAIMANO-The Board is, the Town Board.
MR. MARTIN-Yes, as lead agent.
MR. DUSEK-And the SEQRA process is done all at once. So, you'll have to have your comments in for
the other items, too.
MRS. MONAHAN-What other items?
MR. CAIMANO-All the items on SEQRA Review.
MRS. MONAHAN-First we're talking about the SEQRA on re-zoning and then you're going to do another SEQRA
on site, right?
MR. CAIMANO-But what he's saying.
MR. BREWER-It's all one.
MRS. MONAHAN-Are you telling me that when National Church Residence come in they don't have to do a
SEQRA that's more site specific than your review?
MR. DUSEK-That's right.
MR. MARTIN-I think that's why the re-zoning, the attempt to catch that at the re-zoning stage.
MR. CARTIER-Well, lets get on with this, and we can talk about that. That's kind of another issue.
What have I got so far? Senior housing, park, bikeway, buffering, residential friendly neighboring
residences, residential clustering, site specific septic testing, emergency access. This place is
going to have to consider emergency access more so than other places.
MR. CAIMANO-That's right.
MRS. MONAHAN-I agree with you.
MR. CARTIER-Traffic study.
MR. CAIMANO-Well, I didn't say traffic study. I said, traffic concerns.
MR. CARTIER-Traffic concerns. Okay.
MR. MARTIN-See, what all that is, basically, an outline for is you want to see a conceptual plan.
MRS. MONAHAN-What about some place in there, do you want to say something about the concern for the
mix that will be allowed of the professional office to the residential use?
MR. MARTIN-Yes.
MR. CAlMANO-That's a good point.
MRS. MONAHAN-I don't know how we're going to handle it, but I think that's got to be addressed.
MR. MARTIN-Well, somehow you want to say that you want to be guaranteed some sort of residential use
there, and not purely office.
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MR. CARTIER-Let me understand something. If we get this thing to public hèaring tomorrow night,..then
that saves the grant money, right, then that gives us a cushion of time to deal with this thing and
we can slow down and take a harder look at it. Is that accurate?
MRS. MONAHAN-Isn't that accurate, Paul?
MR. DUSEK-Well, I was just about, a little later I was going to mention I think that what has to be
done is, first of all, tomorrow, if, in fact, all they have to do is adopt a resolution setting the
public hearing, the public hearing could be set far enough in advance, so that, in turn, we can get
to all these issues in the meantime.
MR. CARTIER-Okay.
MR. DUSEK-And that's what I, in fact, as I mentioned to Betty a little earlier, I would hope to address
SEQRA issues and everything before we got to the public hearing so that we're not playing catch up
at that point.
MR. CARTIER-No, but you've also got to have, the public hearing part of the SEQRA process has got to
be in there, too.
MR. DUSEK-Well, that depends. If it's strictly a Long Form, it's not necessary to have a public hearing.
If you go to an Environmental Impact Statement, then it is.
MR. CARTIER-The Town Board is going to be the ones who decide whether or not a public hearing is
necessary for the SEQRA process, correct?
MR. DUSEK-Right.
MR. CARTIER-Good. I'm glad we're not making that decision.
MR. DUSEK-Although your input is there.
MR. CARTIER-True. Okay. What else?
MR. MARTIN-Okay. I will make a motion.
MOTIOfI TO RECO_ND RE-ZONING FOR P4-91 PROPERTY MER J. IIJCKLEY BRIM. JR.. FOR THE RE-lOfIING OF
HIS PARCEL TAX MP NO. 73-1-22 FROM RR-3. RURAL RESIDEflTIAL. TO .-5, Introduced by James Martin who
moved for its adoption, seconded by Nicholas Caimano:
This recommendation is made with the following suggestions for review by the Town Board: One. the
Senior Housing complex to be developed by the National Church Residence is developed and built. If
not, the existing zoning will remain in effect. A park, a minimum of three acres in size, will be
made available for purchase by the Town. A bikeway included on the property, crossing the property.
For subsequent development of the property, efforts be made to buffer thi s development from exi sti ng
neighboring residential uses, and that these buffer areas should be shown on subsequent site plans,
at the point of site plan review. The overall development of the property should be done in such a
way as to be "residential friendly" to neighboring residences. To the greatest extent possible,
residential development on the parcel should be clustered. Development of septic systems for subsequent
uses on the property be subject to individual septic testing for proper percolation. Emergency access
to the parcel be adequately considered. Traffic resulting from proposed uses of the parcel be adequately
dealt with to the extent possible under re-zoning of the property. That consideration be given to
a method of limiting the development of professional office of the parcel. The reason being to establish
and maintain optimum mix of professional and residential use. Density considerations be given under
the new zoning that's being proposed, and, this generally applies to all of the above, at the earliest
point possible, or if it is possible at all, a conceptual plan for the entire parcel be presented for
consideration by the Town. Lastly, the re-zoning is to be based on the following percentage formula
as it applies to the various residential uses of the parcel, and they are, at least 50 percent of the
entire units be developed to the benefit of senior citizens, the handicapped, etc., and other special
needs. Of the remaining allowable units after development of the National Church Residence project,
25 percent be made available and accessible to the handicapped from the beginning of construction of
any buildings not done by National Church Residences.
MRS. MONAHAN-I think you left out one thing, and I think we need to nail it down, and that's this
percentage formula, because if we don't put this percentage formula.
MR. CARTIER-You guys are going to do that.
MR. CAlMANO-You'll do that.
MRS. MONAHAN-I know, but I think you ought to put this in so that when I go fight for this they'll
say, well, the Planning Board doesn't care anything about it.
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MR. CAlMANO-Well, from your standpoint, you want it, the percentage so the Planning Board kicks in.
MR. HAGAN-I fail to agree with half of what you guys are doing.
MR. CAlMANO-Why?
MR. HAGAN-Well, let me try to tell you. What does all this have to do with just a change in the zone.
What the Town Board is going to do is change the zone, that's all. Now, how are they going to write
all this stuff in the changes? This stuff comes in at site plan.
MR. CAIMANO-We don't want them to write it in the changes.
MR. HAGAN-Well, okay. Then what good is it for them to consider it at this time?
MR. CAlMANO-Because, if we're going to have communications back and forth, they should know what we're
going to consider when it comes to site plan review.
MR. HAGAN-Okay. That's different. That's what I'm saying. We're talking about site plan review,
not are-zoning.
MR. CARTIER-I think all we're saying to the Town Board is, in your deliberations with regard to re-zoning
this piece of property, these are the things you should take into account when you consider the
re-zoning.
MR. MARTIN-See, this is what I mean, Paul, by a planned unit development approach to this. That's
really what it is, in effect.
MR. DUSEK-We just don't have a mechanism to handle..
MR. CAIMANO-Right, but at least we give it a thought process.
MR. BREWER-I still don't understand that formula.
MR. MARTIN-I understand what she's trying to do with it.
MR. BREWER-I understand what she's trying to do with it, but I can't work it out.
MR. CAIMANO-Well, in actuality, it's as Debbie said earlier. It's 24 minus five, minus five, minus
nine, or whatever.
MRS. COLLIN-You end up with 14 acres.
MR. CAIMANO-Fourteen acres.
MRS. COLLIN-So, I understand that 50 percent of the 14 acres.
MR. BREWER-Yes, but if there's 24 there, and she says take 50 percent, that's 12, to me, less five.
MRS. COLLIN-No. Start with 24.
MRS. MONAHAN-It's units. I'm talking about units.
MR. CARTIER-Fifty percent of the units. Not 50 percent of the acres.
MR. BREWER-If you read that. he says, 50 percent of it, not 50 percent of the units. That's not what
you said. That's why I couldn't figure it out.
MRS. COLLIN-Betty, you're saying acres, and if you mean units, say units.
MRS. MONAHAN-No. You have to start with units to do your calculations, because that's how it's figured,
but then you've got to take out the acres that you can't count, and then for part of it you have to
put some of it back in because you're working two different formulas simultaneously.
MR. MARTIN-On one formula you ~ including the senior housing, and on the other formula you're pulling
it prior to your calculations.
MRS. MONAHAN-See, and that's what makes, and then when you do your cross check backwards, it all adds
up.
Duly adopted this 30th day of September, 1991, by the following vote:
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AYES: Mr. Martin, Mr. Caimano, Mr. Hagan, Mr. Brewer, Mr. Cartier
NOES: NONE
ABSENT: Mr. LaPoint, Mrs. Pulver
MR. CARTIER-The only thing I would raise is I hope somebody somewhere, and I guess, Paul, maybe this
is for you, it seems mostly appropriate for you to do, is that somebody sits down with this thing,
when..done, and look for loopholes, so we don't end up with what we don't want to have now, 160
residential units.
MR. DUSEK-If I may, let me just make an observation I think that it's important for the Board to be
aware of. What I plan to do, at this point, is to draft language in a very general sense for this
first motion to set a public hearing. The language that is ultimately made the legislation, which
won't happen until after the public hearing, it is my opinion that we have some flexibility in it.
In other words, what we have to make sure, in the first motion, which ultimately triggers a public
notice and everything, is that we're generally notifying the public of an MR-5 designation for that
area with, generally, the conditions that we are seeking to impose on it. They don't have to be all
of the conditions, but they have to be the major conditions so that the public will know what we're
trying to head to and give them sufficient notice.
MR. CARTIER-Okay.
MR. DUSEK-After the public hearing, the Board will then have the opportunity to finally draft, in final
version, the legislation, which we can, if the terms that you see, I guess what I'm leading to that
when this thing comes out, ultimately, and you guys get a hold of it and if you don't see everything
that you wanted or if you're a little concerned, you still have an opportunity to raise those concerns
prior to or at the time of the public hearing, so that when the final legislation is drafted it can
be included. We have some flexibility. I can't change it drastically, otherwise we have to go through
another public hearing, but the Board will have some opportunity to revise and to add even a few more
conditions, as long as the general nature of the legislation hasn't significantly altered. Like, if
we went from an RR-5 to a UR-I0, then we'd have a big problem.
MR. CAIMANO-You're talking about that Board, the Town Board.
MR. DUSEK-Right, but I'm saying, ~ will have an opportunity to see the what it is that's been drafted,
know, when you see it, that that doesn't mean that's exactly the way it has to be when it gets through
the public hearing process. They have some flexibility. So, you'll have further input at that point.
So, when you see it, I guess this is just a forewarning, it may not be exactly what your motion says,
but it'll be generally in those terms with the thought we'll crystallize it at that second step.
MRS. MONAHAN-But some things you've got to keep in there, and that's, the condition of the National
Church Residence going in, the percentage formula, and the septic test formula. Those have to go in.
MR. DUSEK-Right.
MRS. MONAHAN-And the park and the bikeway.
MR. BREWER-And the buffer.
MRS. MONAHAN-Yes, the buffer.
MR. CARTIER-Does anybody else have anything else?
MR. DUSEK-I do. If I may ask the Board for an Executive Session to discuss matters of employment of
particular persons.
MR. CARTIER-Okay.
MRS. COLLIN-I would just like to thank you for letting me speak.
MR. CARTIER-Thank you.
tl)TION TO 60 INTO EXECUTIVE SESSION TO DISCUSS A PARTICUlAR PERSOII(S) AND THEIR EMPLOYJENT HISTORIES,
Introduced by Nicholas Caimano who moved for its adoption, seconded by James Martin:
Duly adopted this 30th day of September, 1991, by the following vote:
AYES: Mr. Caimano, Mr. Martin, Mr. Brewer, Mr. Hagan, Mr. Cartier
NOES: NONE
ABSENT: Mr. LaPoint, Mrs. Pulver
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MOTIOIf 10 COME 001 OF EXECUTIVE SESSION AND RElURN 10 REGUlAR SESSION, Introduced by Nicholas Caimano
who moved for its adoption, seconded by James Martin:
Duly adopted this 30th day of September, 1991, by the following vote:
AYES: Mr. Martin, Mr. Brewer, Mr. Hagan, Mr. Caimano, Mr. Cartier
NOES: NONE
ABSENT: Mr. LaPoint, Mrs. Pulver
A discussion was held on Criteria to be Considered When Looking for an Attorney for the Planning Board,
and it was decided on:
1. A planning background.
2. A SEQRA background.
3. A Town Law/Ordinances background.
4. Enabling Legislation background - a thorough understanding of case law regarding the above.
5. Attendance of approximately 10 hours of regular monthly meetings and 2 or more hours of specia1
meetings.
6. Readily availab1e on short notice by phone.
7. Sit at meetings, interject comments in a manner that does not send wrong message to app1icant or
Board.
8. Previous experience with like or comparable boards - i.e. Planning, Zoning, Town, etc.
9. Time for pre-review of app1ications before meetings.
10. Available to head of P1anning Department.
11. Hour1y versus retainer.
On motion meeting was adjourned.
RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED,
Peter Cartier, Chairman
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