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1991-11-23 SP -- .~ IJ,IEENSBURY PLANNING BOARD MEETING SPECIAL WRKSHOP MEETING NOVEMBER 23RD, 1991 INDEX Discussion of plans and goals for the future with new Town Board members and Planning Board members 1. THESE ARE NOT OFFICIALLY ADOPTED MINUTES AND ARE SUBJECT TO BOARD AND STAFF REVISIONS. REVISIONS WILL APPEAR IN THE FOLLOWING MONTHS MINUTES (IF ANY) AND WILL STATE SUCH APPROVAL OF SAID MINUTES. , j '-" -..-' IJ,IEENSBURY PlANNING BOARD MEETING SPECIAL WORKSHOP MEETING NOVEMBER 23RD, 1991 1:00 P.M MEMBERS PRESENT PETER CARTIER, CHAIRMAN JAMES MARTIN NICHOLAS CAlMANO TIMOTHY BREWER EDWARD LAPOINT CAROL PULVER SUSAN GOETZ MIKE BRANDT PLINEY TUCKER BETTY MONAHAN MEMBERS ABSENT JAMES LAURICELLA MR. CARTIER-What's your pleasure? We're here at your behalf. MR. BRANDT-I've been trying to encourage meetings between the Town Board and all the other parts of the team of the Town, because it's going to be a new team. We might as well meet each other and talk to each other and candidly try and figure out where we're trying to get and, if we can, from my viewpoint, look at the thrust the Town Board will have, preferably before I get in office and open the door. So, much you get inundated with..to find your thrust. I've been talking a little bit and meeting with as many Department heads and other parts of the Town as we can to explore where we can go and, certainly, there's been a problem in the workings between the Town.. impression we get in the newspapers. So, I'd like to avoid that. I'd like to, we're all, we each have a function. We each have something we need to do to find our direction, and in that spirit, I've kind of asked for this meeting, and, thus far, our goal is to get right to the point, say what we think, be very candid, and open it. In my campaign, I would take it from there..being incurred by the Town process, that is to handle the approval process, because the mechanism of cost is reflected on the Town's pride and it's also reflected to the person coming through, can we find ways of trying to regulate growth by making too overly complex a process. Can we define the growth we want far better than we have, and do more planning, and less.. the process is, when you make a process overly complex, then you can also start to play games..and all that sort of thing, and I'd rather.. MR. CAIMANO-You had some, when I talked with Lee York, you had some questions, and I tried to answer them from a Planning Board member's perspective, some things that really..last night. For example. MR. CARTIER-Let me just interrupt you one second to make sure you know where this is coming from. This is a list that was generated..and, at this point, it's really a shopping list. MR. CAIMANO-That's okay. Thing of it is, if you look at Number 14, for example, this is exactly what you asked for last night, Number 14,..one of the things you talked about last night, in fact, were already begun by this Planning Board. I think this list is a pretty good example of what. MR. MARTIN-I think, essentially, there's two directions which this can be taken from. One is that things can be made simpler. There comes a point where which the Town is bound by State law, as to what has to happen in a site plan review or a subdivision or anything like that. So, there's only so much we can do, but from that end, I think the application process can be presented in a more, not to catch on to a trendy phrase, a user friendly fashion. Also, I think we can do things to tighten up some of the incompetence which has led to frustration for people, and cost overruns. So, working from those two directions, I think you can improve the process, make it more simple, and also explain it to people and provide them with the material so they understand why they're having to do what they have to do. People get upset having to pay a $150 engineering bill in the mail from Rist-Frost for looking over their subdivision, when they don't understand it, but maybe if they understand, then they can see the need for it. MR. BRANDT -A 1 so, understand, my issue is, I don't want, by maki ng the process, ..opposi te. I'd 1 i ke to move it, set our agenda very hard, set what our goals are and just... go of the control s that we have or need or don't have. For instance, traffic control,..restriction on that. MR. CAIMANO-Pete sent us a letter, and in the letter he talked about a number of things..the Planning Board. It's addressed to the Planning Board. However, at the end of the letter, he says..I knew what was on his mind, but..keeping in mind my personal belief that..opens up..I understand what..at. The point is that if you don't change your way of doing..the Town Board know that you are going to do that. MR. CARTIER-But that is my individual, personal belief,..ultimately, that's going to be up to the Planning Board. 1 "- '-" MR. CAIMANO-Okay. I just wanted to put that on the table, because it does bring up an interesting thing, because now..the Town Board, and we..philosophies and how to work with you, which is fine, if indeed that is going to be the mode of operation. That's fine as far as I'm concerned. MR. CARTIER-I think I'm operating, I just read this the other day...so it doesn't matter who's blowing the whistle. MRS. GOETZ-That's what I was thinking. If you have a good Board, what difference does it make? MR. CAlMANO-It does, and I'll tell you why it does, just let me put this on the table. In terms of the ZBA, it doesn't, because you need a good person leading the meeting..much more strict interpreters of. . come at it from a business direction. He comes at it. .ultimately broad problems. If we're going to change Chairman all the time, it means...I would have to say, without..Pete leads his meetings in the direction of pretty strict interpretations of Zoning Ordinances and ecological.. I think Jim may very well do it the same. You and I may not, and I just think that because you deal with less structured type of problems..that's a personal opinion. MR. CARTIER-Yes, but I think it should be understood, and I have operated that way in the last year, that whatever the direction the Board goes is the direction the entire Board decides to go, okay. MR. CAIMANO-Okay. MR. CARTIER-It's not a unilateral situation. MR. BRANDT-I think you'll find that happening in thè Town Board, also. ,The Town Board is a Board... MR. CARTIER-...Pretty much what we have been doing all along, simplifying the process the way Mike's talking about, also, getting some kind of time..the Planning Staff is so wrapped up in the nitty gritty, there's no time..more meetings in workshop form, but absolutely, absolutely. MR. TUCKER-Why I'm asking you this, and I don't know who..in the process the guying putting this project together, somebody talked him into putting his sprinkler system into his...but my point is, is I think when. . MR. CARTIER-Are we talking about the one? MRS. PULVER-We're talking about Martha's, I think. MR. CAlMANO-Martha's hotel. MRS. PULVER-Martha's expansion. MR. CARTIER-Martha's. Okay, because I'm the guy who brought the sprinkler issue up, and it came up in the case of another motel. MRS. PULVER-It was a recommendation of Dave Hatin. MR. TUCKER-Yes. Mr. Hatin was involved. MR. CARTIER-As far as I'm concerned, that's a legitimate function of a Planning Board, is to look at safety issues, that's where I was coming from. Now, whether or not that's creating policy, I don't know. Maybe it is. MR. TUCKER-What bothered me about it was it wasn't a requirement. MR. CARTIER-Okay, chiseled in stone requirement. MR. TUCKER-No, but I mean it wasn't a requirement in the rules and regulations that were..for this..of everybody that comes. MR. CARTIER-I would tend to agree with that, in terms of being consistent about..the safety issues are. MR. LAPOINT-. .feel if there's something I can do about it to make it correct. I don't care whether it's the law... MR. CAIMANO-..you said that. Now the issue's on the table, is it the proper, and that's what the.. MRS. PULVER-Wait a minute. Let me just say something. I went to the public hearing that the Town Board had..a sprinkler system with all the studies done, save the property, more than the lives. It adds to the cost. The room was filled with contractors and people speaking out against, and the cost. It ended up, they decided to let the sprinkling system be..sprinkling systems...the place was going 2 --- -- to go sky high. I mean, right now, they could go out and they could kind of shop for a sprinkling system, but if the Town requires it, you can bet it's going to be a top dollar item, and the other thing is, the only other motel to come before us was the, was it the Susse Chalet? MR. CAIMANO-The Susse Chalet. MRS. PULVER-And they put in a sprinkling system. So, I think that is the trend. They will automatically go there, with a, you know, maybe we make a suggestion or whatever. MR. CAIMANO-The point you bring up, though is that the Town Board did not pass a resolution requiring it, and, therefore, the Planning Board... MRS. PULVER-Because there was such public outcry against it. MR. LAPOINT-Well, no, but it's still within my individual purview to vote the way I want to vote. MR. CAlMANO-Sure. MR. TUCKER-I don't want to take that away from you, Mr. LaPoint, but I want to point one thing out to you. When you sit on that Board up there and..business people are wheeling and dealing all the time. Somebody comes in front of you and they get the opinion, well, we don't have to put in a sprinkler system. Well, if they'd like one, we'll put one in, but...wheeling and dealing to try to get away with something else, if they give you that. MR. CAIMANO-The fundamental question, though, is, that you will vote against something... MR. CARTIER-There's more to it than that. Understand, what I'm hearing Ed say, and I agree with him, and I think this will go back to your question, is, everything this Board does is grounded in the Ordinance. When we get away from the Ordinance, that's when we create some real problems for everybody. In the case of a sprinkler system, I think we are grounded in the Ordinance, in terms of, one of ..and if it is the policy of this Board to take a hard and fast look... MRS. PULVER-..I don't either. MR. BRANDT-I think that, if you feel that way, you should sell that to the Town Board and make it law, and if...the Town Board in it, then you shouldn't enforce it. If someone comes and sells you on a safety issue..or enforcing it because you feel it's a safety issue..in great detail, you may have some misconceptions coming from the person that sold you on it, and the beauty of enacting it in the law is that you have to go through a process where all the sides of the issue can be aired and everybody's got a forma1..both sides, and you make a policy. I think it's dangerous..I think it properly should be done through the adoption of a law. MRS. PULVER-Let me just say one thing, back to the public hearing, was that, the State does not require..I would not vote against a project because..I'm not comfortable with making the Planning Board.. . MR. MARTIN-I don't really know quite how to word this, because the distinction between these types of things is a very fine line, and I think a Planning Board should stay strictly within its realm, and I think that is best defined by traditional planning issues, subdivisions, you know, site plan review, in terms of the physical layouts of properties and buildings and so on, and when we start getting into interiors and Building Code issues, I think we're getting out of our strength and we're getting away from what the purpose of the Planning Board is, is it's created in..and as it's, you know, I don't know that I would want to get into a detailed aspect of whether a building is sprinklered or not, as a Planning Board member. I just don't, when the Building Inspector walks on the site and he's got his New York State book of codes with him and his other experience, that's his job. He's better versed in that than I am, and I understand what you're saying about the safety issue, but I think that's really getting it right down to the fine, narrow aspects, here, and I wouldn't, you know, I'll be the first one to, you know, if he's not sizing his lots correctly, or, you know, like we got in the subdivision the other night, flag shaped lots and things like that. 1'11 comment on that as a Planning Board member, and I'll make him go back to his engineer and make him spend more money to redesign that. That's an expense, and it's a result of our decision, and that's within our realm, but to make someone say that you have to have sprinkler systems, that's a Building Code issue, in my mind. MR. BRANDT-I think we've..lets move on to other areas and we'll come back for maybe a time, but lets all be thinking about... MR. CAIMANO-Could I bring one up, because it's something I that I thought about on the way over here, as a matter of fact,..that the SEQRA process on a project, rather than vacillate back and forth..better off down there, that's just an opinion, but..once and for all for us. MR. BRANDT-I'm certainly willing to consider..like to look at that. 3 '-" --./ MR. CAIMANO-Well, as we constantly change lead agencies...I think it's the right place for it, too, but why should you run the risk of the criticism that would naturally come with, we want to take this SEQRA, why? Have you got special interest in this? What? MR. BRANDT-Let me te 11 you. I tend to agree.. fi rst of all, you need cons i stency, and somebody has to overlook that consistency, and the Town Board is not the one that does that well, because..off into all kinds of areas, and I think that, probably, my intuition. MR. LAPOINT-I'm all for that, also, as long as we keep it consistent, and it's not project specific. My problem is bouncing it back and forth. MR. CAIMANO-That's right. MR. LAPOINT-And we make that decision, we go from time zero, right from.... MR. BRANDT-..to every single person that comes before..the same, everybody. I don't care where their from or what their background is, or their citizenship, or race, or anything. They are citizens, and they are treated as the same. MR. CARTIER-Do us a favor. If you are ever approached with a situation where somebody is telling you..if there are some things in the past that you are aware of. MR. BRANDT-I think, let the past be bygones. Lets look at the future. MR. MARTIN-See, and I think something that would be an excellent idea, you talk about more communication between the Town Board and us. You get a controversial project, or even as a matter of a regular course of action, you ask for us, for our recommendation on a re-zoning, and maybe you'll read the minutes and maybe you won't, and you never hear our side of the story, and we've seen it, especially on, like, this Diehl business, we saw this as a result of a past subdivision and all the review that was associated with that. So you had seven members at your disposal that had an in-depth knowledge of this project, and we were never approached at all by anybody and asked why we recommended no, and I think it would be nice to have a meeting. It's not that hard for us to get together. MR. BRANDT-If you think we need a meeting, if you think you have input we ought to hear, ask for it, because we may not realize that you think that. So, ask for it, and I'll bet you'll get it. I think there has to be a lot of communication between the Town Board and the Planning Board. MR. MARTIN-Yes. I don't think people realize, all the time, the impact that a re-zoning has on your Town. MR. CAlMANO-It was..to me, and I'm sure it was to you, and that's why you were saying it, we would have a re-zoning recommendation for the Town Board..to hear what the hell was going on. MR. TUCKER-I think the direction that we're going to go is if we..as individuals, but... MR. MARTIN-I think that's what a direct, face to face communication on an issue we've got a recommendation on and you have to pass a resolution on, you know, we're supposedly like the planning mechanism for the Town, and we recommended against it or for it, I would think you'd want to know why. MR. BRANDT-Yes. I think planning has to be far more focused than it has..develop a comprehensive town plan, and by that..development is going to do as well as what..I mean, if you look at proper planning of a community, at least the way I look at it, it's all finances. So, if you want something to work, you design it so it'll work financially, that is, your sewer district..is going to be a very expensive area. Therefore, you have to plan a lot of density in it or it won't work, and..re-zoning and giving density outside of that sewer district. We need to force development inside that sewer district or it'll bankrupt the..be very careful about that, and..any development, you look at your utility cost and you have to have enough density to carry them, okay,...you don't put in ground water. You don't put in sewer, so that costs are much lower, you can afford to have lower densities.. .planning to plan around those costs. One of the things we need to do is look at clustering. That comes, your Item 15..primarily the West Glens Falls area where you're in..quite sandy, and percolations there can be a minute. . .heard enormous arguments over the years as to too high percolation rates. Well, I can understand the real concern about percolation rates when you're in course gravel..background was in bacteriology and I worked in a..bacterial filters with sand. We didn't go into virus filters, but it's not hard to do that either. When your looking at the soils do here, that's what they are. They're really filtering out these..as they go through the soils. Now you also have nutrients. You don't filter those out. You get into iron exchange and all that kind of stuff in soils. .happening in the West Glens Falls area..the nutrients are going on through. The nutrient overload doesn't bother me very much, because I think if you really look at water table and they go on out to the river and go out the river and we asked ENCON about that, years ago, and the reason I bring this up is clustering. If we can get an honest appraisal of what these soils really do and how tight we can build on them, then we could cluster our development much tighter and leave a lot more green belt.. .very much want it looked at because it is a soil science question, and..take a good scientific view of that thing.. 4 ',,--- --' MR. CAIMANO-..you brought up last night, I think, was this... MR. BRANDT-We would be really remiss if we don't look at the Hudson River as a major..not just in Queensbury, but in nei ghboring towns. . . famil i ar with the Hudson River. .ought to.. Town. .Mohawk has identified...want to see us look at that as..very strongly before we....I don't know if any of you people are familiar with the area, major significance for the future. ..don't want to get into the Wild River Act and all that sort of thing, but I think you can..development along there, if it's done properly. MR. CAIMANO-I remember when you first were here, Carol, and we. .five minutes would be a lot of time. Now it takes five minutes to get to the bridge. MR. MARTIN-..and when I say, traffic management plan,..went into this in depth with Peter the other night. I'd like to see a plan whereby the Planning Board and/or a Town Board, we developed a scope of services that we want to see in that plan. We dictate to whoever does that plan what we want to see and, as a consultant in the planning world, you can a lot of slack out there. I mean, there's some stuff that's not worth the paper it's written on. You've got to get a plan that lays out specific things that must be implemented in future development in certain areas of the Town, and these are the things that we. .as you go through your site plan review process or re-zoning process, or what have you, that must be implemented if further development occurs in these areas of the Town, and that type of work, of scope, will tie us into a plan that'll be a very useful document and not just be another study on the shelf. MR. CAIMANO-Remember the night that..you could put a light at LaFayette, County Club, and Glenwood and time it so that...lights on two of those, and it doesn't flow smoothly. MR. MARTIN-Well, they didn't use our recommendation. MR. CAIMANO-No? MR. MARTIN-Our recommendation, by the way, was to have the Glenwood light flashing and only activated in times of fire. MR. CAIMANO-LaFayette was supposed to be an activated light. It's not. MR. MARTIN-..flashing and only activated by the firehouse, if they needed it. Well, I think we saw there was significant justification for the Glenwood light, because that's where all the accidents were occurring. LaFayette should be left flashing. MR. CAIMANO-...question is, do we have, now, does the Town have the right to go to the County and say... MR. CARTIER-The problem we ran into before, I know Paul..privately owned County and Town lights..all those lights sequenced. It can be done. MR. BRANDT-I'm sure the guy who owns private lights doesn't want to own them. MR. CAIMANO-Like Shop n' Save. MR. CARTIER-I'm sure. MR. BRANDT-Any of them, because if..a store, the last thing you want to do is have to..some.. MR. CARTIER-I'm not talking about changing ownership. I'm talking about getting those lights sequenced. MR. BRANDT-I mean, if you looked, an environmental matter, every time you make people stop their cars and then start them again, I mean, environmentally, you cannot justify it. The amount of petroleum we burn...crazy. MR. CAIMANO-That's why we went to right turn on red. ...was designed in the late 70's. MR. MARTIN-There's certainly only a few of these things we can accomplish in the next few months or year or whatever, but I think that's one of those that should start as, if that's anything we can undertake in the next year, whether it be a need for appropriate..to do that or whatever, I think that's a very worthwhile. MR. LAPOINT-The first step we need there is to put together an index of existing...I think we've got dozens of these things available..the plan, you can work from that data... MR. MARTIN-Lower the cost of the plan that you, ultimately, have to have undertaken. MR. CAIMANO-There's another data base that we have, and we've talked about it at many...data base is the numbers of... 5 ',- --..../ MR. CARTIER-..we're going to put a traffic management study together out there. Who'd like to volunteer to work on that. MR. LAPOINT-Yes, and we provide them all the data, first, we've got all the data..traffic study stuff is obvious anyway. MR. MARTIN-I called, on behalf of the City of Glens Falls one time, to get traffic counts on Sherman Avenue and the girl at the County put a traffic counter out the next day, that was Monday. I had the information by Thursday, up to date, for that week. I was amazed. MR. BRANDT-We look at the limited resources of the Town. ..enormous amount of work to do here to..when we get help out of our citizens and all of these various little...many problems, and we'd like to try and find a mechanism to do that..part of getting it. Once you get it, you've got to pay attention to what it says..we can't move as fast as going. .consultants and making our decisions..accomplishes a lot of things, if people will involve themselves. It also helps us get our message out to the community..one of the new Board is going to attempt to do is that..same thing if we do a comprehensive..that input. MR. CARTIER-If you come up with a list of four or five or however many...you identify what those things are, then you put the word out and say..working on this, another group working on that, and so on and so forth..busy because you're going to have to digest.... MR. BRANDT-...put priorities here from your viewpoint. MR. CARTIER-Absolutely. We haven't gotten to do that yet, but we will. MR. LAPOINT-Yes. The call for citizen help from the Town Board would be, I think,.... MR. BRANDT-And what we're going to try and do is form a mechanism to accommodate it...we have to learn how to do that, and please have patience, because I don't know...how to do that, but we're going to try and learn. MR. CAlMANO-Let me ask you this, though,..discussion with Lee..especially you as the Chairman. MR. CARTIER-If we're going to get into some of this other stuff.. well , let me, I think there's going to have to be some kind of Staff time provided to what we're talking about, in terms of simplifying... MR. MARTIN-..and I wil1..consulting, planning firm to the..my firm shelter planning..we wouldn't even. I'm saying, rather than paying $25,000 a year for a junior planner and all the associated benefits and worry about pay increases and so on, you could have a retaining, planning firm on retainer that handles either one side of the..or the other, the day to day, mundane stuff of processing the applications, the site plan work and all that, or undertaking some of these other planning... MR. CARTIER-..which would you prefer? MR. MARTIN-I think that's up to her. MR. CAIMANO-From a PR standpoint, I would think that the Senior Planner.... MR. MARTIN-I know your cost being in consideration, I think, in the long term, you're. MR. BRANDT-Let me say clearly that, in my..very strongly that I thought we needed far more planning than we have. That's.... MR. MARTIN-...I'm saying, with that approach is, you're hiring an entire firm with several people, maybe, at your access, whereas you hire that one person, that's only another 40 hours a week, and you're limited by the abilities, and what that only one person can handle. MR. BRANDT-My view is, there are places we can cut expenses in the Town..also why I was careful not to say that I was... MR. MARTIN-The only thing I will say to go along with that, and this is for Pliney's interest. This is something I've seen for many..West Glens Falls needs, and is deserving of having, a single purpose housing rehabilitation program, targeted for that area. There is probably five or six target areas that you could do in consecutive years in that. .properly. This Town, instead of riding on the back of the County and being part of their application, deserves to have its own community development office, with its own housing rehab program, funded through the federal government. MR. CARTIER-Wait a minute. Isn't that on the list? MR. MARTIN-Yes, it is. MR. CARTIER-Number Nine, that's right. 6 - - MR. MARTIN-Number Nine, and what I'm tal king about is a benefit to lower and moderate income people there. You've got income eligible people down there and the need is there, and the County's told the Town before, well, you won't qualify because you're a rich town. That's..granted, some parts of the town are affluent, but it's the people who will actually receive the grant that make it eligible or not, and it wouldn't cost anything to the Town, except for the cost of the preparation of the application. They all have admin lines within them. They're at 20 percent admin. You can run your own program and pay for it out of the grant, and you can start fi xi ng up some of the homes down there, instead of..like it doesn't even exist, and South Queensbury, too. I think there's probably a target area or two down there, too. MRS. PULVER-..point is, they're even being asked to do..even what studies should be, you know. She accessed. .deciding what studies should be done, and then announce. .or our Senior Planner would still be..a Junior Planner isn't even going to have the expertise that our Senior Planner has. MR. CAIMANO-. .just for the sake of argument, since you..what kind of numbers are you looking at, as a... . MRS. PULVER-..and instead of maybe giving the $15,000...I've been trying to do it. MR. MARTIN-ooI think you could create..office within the Planning Office of this Town..the grant, and I envision another position...the Senior Planner, their mission would be to implement the housing rehab program, and I'm not just tal king about a rehab program that does siding and windows and that type of stuff. I'm ta 1 ki ng about rea 1 nuts and bo 1 ts rehab, foundation repair, roof repa i r, p 1 umbi ng and electrical wiring, you know, code issues, that type of thing, and fix up the housing for the people down there and give them something they can take.. .probably got one of the neediest areas in the whole County, and you're continually told by the County Planning Office, well, you know, we put you in as part of our comp, or our County, this Town, with the position it's in, could easily..a program, in and of itself. MRS. PULVER-A grant could be justified for that area down there. The County has been giving. MR. MARTIN-Here's a small example. Okay, say you have a three block area with 60 housing units in it, okay. Forty are determined to be income eligible. You survey the area, and 32 of those are substandard. They're not up to code. They need work, put in a $400,000 grant application, those are the limits, $400 and $600 in for a comp, $400,000, and $320,000 goes to rehab, $80,000 is for admin, that's where you pay your coordinator out of, and any other incidental costs of the Town for running the program, and $320,000, $10,000 per unit, is budgeted for rehabilitation of those homes. ...even doing mobile homes. I work in it every day. It's there. It's just that the Town has always been cowed around by the County, as to, you know, well, we'll take care of it for you, and we'll survey for you. MRS. PULVER-The County has been funneling money into that area for years, and..the County handle it that way. Also, with the way.. for them to take on the burden of trying to write these grants and do the survey, there wasn't enough Staff to do that. So, in order to do that, have an outside firm and..back here (TAPE TURNED) MRS. MONAHAN-..we did get the ones for West Glens Falls. We have no other... MR. MARTIN-What I'm saying is, though, that there is a multitude of programs down on the West Glens Falls area, and it's not just something that should happen...That's why it's not, you're not rated on the wealth of the Town, Betty, you're rated on the specific people within a targeted area. MRS. MONAHAN-Yes, but we couldn't get enough of a...and we did have a target area..before we got the... over there, from that money that was left over, and anything that the Town... MR. BRANDT-Well, yes, lets look at that, and if someone represents that they think they can do it, so it's a $5,000 gamble. It's hardly the end of the world. MR. MARTIN-I can guarantee you that, you survey the West Glens Falls area, and you will find a concentration of income eligible people. MR. CAIMANO-And South Queensbury. MRS. PULVER-No, that's another area. MRS. MONAHAN-Well, unless you know something that wasn't known a little while ago, because that was... MR. BRANDT-How big an area are these areas? Can they be relatively small? MR. MARTIN-Yes, relatively small, whatever it takes for you. You have a $400,000 grant, right, and about $80,000 for admin. So, $320,000, and the average rehab cost can range from $8 to $12,000, and however many units you need to eat up that 320, lets say it's 10, because there's 32 units, you're only looking at 32 homes, and I would guarantee you that you would find a concentration of... 7 "--' - MRS. PULVER-And that's all you have to find that you could use that money. MR. MARTIN-We found it in the Town of Kingsbury. MRS. MONAHAN-Lee has got more information than I do, because I know Steve wondered why we didn't get that South Queensbury..information. So, she's got the better information than I do. I'm doing this off the top of my head, in my memory. MR. BRANDT-Well, lets explore it. I think if there's any possibility of it, it's certainly worth fo llowing. MR. TUCKER-Just one more short question, while it's roaming around in my head. What's the obligation of the people receiving this? Does this have to be repaid? MR. MARTIN-Well, the typical thing HUD likes to see is a five year commitment, that, in a single family home, you won't sell the home for five years, if you do, you have to repay the grant. There's an exception of, if the person dies, obviously. If it's a rental property, that the landlord keeps the unit occupied by lower and moderate income people, for a period of five years. MRS. PULVER-Maintains the rent. MR. MARTIN-And maintains the rent, at an affordable level. MR. CARTIER-Just one other quick question, if you're talking about an outside planning consultant, is that a person that would be appropriate to monitor that, or do have to do that separately? MR. MARTIN-I think you could administer it in-house, with a rehab coordinator paid for out of the grant, directly responsible to administer the program. MR. CARTIER-Are we talking about a new person, or somebody already in..? MR. MARTIN-A new person with construction background, preferably cost estimating and that type of thing, and some management skill. What we've come to find is the best type of person is a semi retired person who's been in the trades a long time, and they have an in-depth knowledge of prices out in the field and usually, if they're a local person, they'll have, also, a good knowledge of who's a good contractor and who's not. MRS. MONAHAN-Jim, why..and why wouldn't...to do that, because every time the Town of Queensbury puts on an additional employee, it costs a bundle of money in benefits and everything else. MR. MARTIN-Well, for one thing, I think the demand is so great that you can't handle it adequately through the County, and, secondly, I think you can write better specifications and run a better program than the County does. MR. BRANDT-What I understood him to say is that you hire a consultant to start the application. Whenever that application's approved, that's when you hire your person in-house, and that salary is covered out of the grant. MRS. PULVER-Right. MR. BRANDT-So, it's not gamble money from us. The gamble money if five grand to start the process. MRS. MONAHAN-Lee does... MRS. PULVER-But not the time. MR. MARTIN-But not, and do site plan reviews and everything for the year, also. MRS. MONAHAN-I realize that. I'm just saying that if that Department was set up in a certain way... MR. BRANDT-Well, I think it's a very, very good point and I'm glad you brought it up. Lets keep going. MR. CARTIER-It sounds like what you want from us is a ranking of these. MR. BRANDT-As much as possible. Some of these, I'm sure, are relatively quick and easy. MR. MARTIN-Well, I think what we want to see, if there's anything that we didn't put down that they might have had, for consideration. MRS. PULVER-I just quick looked at this list and I can't believe I even read it without my glasses, but I'd like to hear the new Board's ideas on architectural review. MR. BRANDT-I was going to ask you yours. 8 -- -- MR. MARTIN-I noticed here, Pete, it says that architectural compatibility with other elements of the project and with the neighborhood is part of our factors of consideration. MR. BRANDT-You've got the power if you want it, if you want to do it. MR. CARTIER-There's the question. MRS. PULVER-Okay, yes. I guess everybody, we briefly discussed it, one time I think, in Executive Session, and my feeling on the Architectural Review is, in order to do architectural review, we need to see their full elevations. So, it either means they have to come back again, after they've had site plan, or they would have to have all their elevations and everything done in the beginning, to starting site plan review, which is a tremendous expense to any applicant to have all those elevations done, especially when they don't know whether the Planning Board is going to like this 2,000 square foot building that they're trying to put up and maybe they're only going to end up with an 1,800 square foot building, and they're going to have to lower the pitch of the roof, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc. I am not in favor of more regulations in a site plan review, and I don't like the idea of the Beautification Committee handling site plan review. What do they, they do trees and shrubs. If we're going to have site plan review, maybe we need to set up a separate committee, a committee of architects and engineers, or whatever, who really know what they're looking at, and if they say lower the roof line, they're even going to know how much it's going to cost the individual to do it, you know, I have the feeling Beautification will look at it and, I don't know what we're going to end up with if they decide. MR. CAIMANO-Just another one of those situations where the outside public,..the Planning Board to ask for a volunteer adjacent type of committee to just review these as a.. MRS. PULVER-Well, my suggestion, wait, let me finish. My suggestion to the Architectural Review is that, possibly, the Planning Board and the Town Board just sit down, or have a public hearing or whatever, and get out input from the community as to what they would like to see. I know you've done it with signs, and as far as Architectural Review, what direction do you want to go, and then just have some guidelines that, as people come in, these are kind of our guidelines. If you're thinking of putting up a building here, this is what we would like to see. MR. BRANDT-Guidelines I like, but new law. MRS. PULVER-No, some guidelines. I don't want to tell somebody to paint everything blue or green. MR. BREWER-The amount of projects that have gone through in this Town, everybody just think, from the last three years, how many problems have we had with architectural review? One, that I know of. MR. CAIMANO-But, still, it's very subjective. MR. BREWER-I can't see telling somebody how to build their building. MRS. MONAHAN-Some places in site plan review, they..but have them do a scale model, which is also..that shows the difficulties in bringing your vehicles in and stuff that does not from a flat drawing. MR. CAIMANO-Scale models are very expensive. MRS. MONAHAN-They don't have to be. MRS. PULVER-Yes, they don't have to be, well then maybe we ought to find somebody that we can hire for the Town that will do these scale drawings at a reasonable, or these scale models, price, because if, we're making money for the architects and the engineers, at the applicant's expense. MR. MARTIN-My understanding of architectural review is that, in many communities, it's based, or the reason for it being is that if you have a historical district, or a district with a certain architectural theme or character that you're trying to preserve and maintain and maybe enhance, then you have architectural, but, boy, in the Town of Queensbury, you know, one of the oldest buildings on Quaker Road's Grossmans. What are you going to do, make it orange and white? MR. TUCKER-And you mentioned Grossmans, and when Grossmans went in there, we had the same situation we've had with this..People screamed and hollered. MR. MARTIN-And in this day and age when people are screaming about over regulation and the cost of those regulations, to them, I think this is an, I don't know what we can do to. MR. BRANDT-I think there's a consensus that we're not running to adopt an architectural review. MR. CARTIER-No, and I agree with Carol. If you're going to go that route, get some feedback from the Town in general, and if you get feedback that says we want architectural review, in fairness to applicants, I think there should be very specific guidelines, or whatever you want to call them, as to what's acceptable and what's not. 9 '-' --- MR. BRANDT-You have to start with a study of what was the first development we have, which was the states avenues, and then that'll set the tone for what we're doing. MR. MARTIN-Well, some of the things don't even fit, still. Like, I think Taco Toms an abomination, that whole building. That Mexican architecture up here in Queensbury just doesn't seem to fit, but what are you going to do. MR. LAPOINT-Well, we do it at a very basic level anyway,..put up screening for dumpsters. We obviously don't have a loading dock spacing the major. MR. MARTIN-Well, you require a lot of green space. MR. LAPOINT-Right. We do the plantings and, to me, there's a level. I mean, this is mostly retail people who want it to be attractive. MR. CARTIER-The only thing, to play Devil's advocate a 1 ittle bit here, the only thing I'm concerned about is that, as you get, when you start reaching build out, what begins to happen, I think, commercially, is that you have to put something up that gets noticed from everything else, and you have to be very careful. To be noticed, you have to be very different from your surroundings, and somewhere down the line, I don't know how to do that, but somewhere down the line, we should have a handle on that. So, I guess I don't see it as a completely dead issue, but it's something that needs to get put on the back burner and considered down the line somewhere. MR. CAIMANO-There's only one issue, and that's the..out of how many projects. MRS. MONAHAN-You do know where that is, architectural review, as far as the Town Board's concerned, don't you? MR. CARTIER-No. In terms of the Beautification Committee? Yes. MRS. MONAHAN-The Beautification Committee is reviewing several different Ordinances and coming back with some recommendations. It's in a studying process right now. MR. CARTIER-It's being looked at now, by the Beautification Committee. Okay. MR. TUCKER-And I'm sure, Pete, your Board is going to look at...closer, are you not? MR. CARTIER-Yes. MRS. PULVER-Well, as close as you can. Remembering, though, that we don't see elevations. MR. CAIMANO-We never saw that. MRS. PULVER-We don't see any elevations and we don't know what color it's going to be. MR. TUCKER-You get a feel, when the applicant comes in and talks tn you, and if you get the feel, well, hey, is this guy going to put something in that. MR. CAIMANO-Wait a minute. I didn't get the feel that there was going to be blue roofs on that Quaker Plaza. MR. LAPOINT-On a planned view, it's very confusing, as to what you are looking at. MR. TUCKER-I bet if something comes in in black in white again that looks something like that, you're going to say, hey, what are you going to do? What color's it going to be? Are you not? MRS. MONAHAN-I hate to tell you guys, but when that came in front of Beautification Committee, I was there, and I told..right then that parking wasn't going to work, and I'm an amateur. MR. BRANDT-I'll tell you my feeling, that is, if we spend a lot of time on architectural review, we're not spending time on creating green belt, on the major re-zoning, not re-zoning, but a comprehensive town plan that we really need, and we need a capital spending plan for years ahead. We need to say that the Town is going to do a Hovey Pond on a certain schedule and at what level of service we're going to do it. We shouldn't be jumping into these projects out of the clear blue. We've got to have that plan together, and that's a big job. MRS. MONAHAN-If I remember right, we used to do it, that's how we did Gurney Lane, we had the money to pay for it because we knew we were saving the money to pay for that particular project. MR. BRANDT-I know the guy who put the first $100,000 up for this last budget. 10 "---' -- MRS. MONAHAN-Part of it was when, didn't you sell, weren't you the one that did the Vorcheck property? MR. BRANDT-I was involved, yes. MRS. MONAHAN-Yes, right. What else? MR. CARTIER-Is there anything left off this list that you can see? MR. BRANDT-Well, I haven't read the whole list. You're way ahead of me. MRS. MONAHAN-Did you bring my idea that I gave you last night from that thing, because I think that has to be addressed. MRS. GOETZ-The little blurb about the green spaces. MRS. MONAHAN-. .shopping area, a retail or commercial anything, we're permitting the blacktop to be in front and the green space in back, and we're permitting blacktopping right up to the edge of buildings, and that's not good for your drainage, and it's certainly not good for the impression in this Town as you drive through some of these places, and we've really got to bringing some of the green space in front, and not let them use some place that's four miles out in back to qualify as green space. MR. CAIMANO-Give me a for instance. Do you mean like Kaidas Kitchen, and that kind of stuff? MRS. MONAHAN-If I were on the Million Dollar Half Mile, I would point out several for you. Basketville, for one. MR. CAlMANO-Okay. MRS. MONAHAN-The shoe store is kind of on that same side of the store. MR. MARTIN-The shoe store is worse. MRS. MONAHAN-On the other side is a prime example of that. MR. CAlMANO-Okay. Well, they came before the Planning Board, and I wasn't there for that meeting, but their plan is to go around back, too, right? MR. CARTIER-Who are we talking about? MR. CAIMANO-The Dexter. MRS. MONAHAN-I'm talking about the green space. You need green space in the front. MR. CAIMANO-Right. The green space will be in the front and the parking will be in the back. Didn't they present that? MRS. PULVER-Yes. MR. CARTIER-Some green space. MR. LAPOINT-..reduce parking in the front. MR. BRANDT-I have no problem with what you're suggesting. MRS. MONAHAN-You would avoid a lot of the problems that are right down there with the new mall there, if that planting was better planting that softened those buildings, a little berming of that land and a few things like that. You drive by that and it looks like, the least they could do, and then you go up by Northern Homes and that have done a beautiful job for that area. MR. CARTIER-I think probably what needs to be done there is to have a Planner, or Planning Board look at that issue and come up with some guidelines, pass them on to the Town Board, and have the Town Board into an Ordinance. MRS. MONAHAN-And we have met with the businessmen on the Million Dollar Half Mile, and they are going to do more plantings, try and get the lines underground, but I think they're also talking, you might want to start thinking about this, an identification type of lighting system, such things as the type of street lights that go through there. Bob Flack suggested this years and years ago, Mike, if you remember, all Route 9, right through to Lake George.... MR. CARTIER-Yes. I think I had something, sort of, in reference to that, it wasn't 149, but it was Route 9. 11 '- ,--,' MR. CAIMANO-You've got a Route 9, Number Seven, establish set backs on Route 9. MR. CARTIER-Yes, in other words a corridor plan. MRS. MONAHAN-But you're doing it, here, for traffic, in Seven, and we need to think for aesthetics, also. MR. CARTIER-Yes, see, historically, what's happened with the 30 percent perm is it's been considered for perc, to get groundwater, and it hasn't been considered in terms of aesthetics, and I think we have to raise the ante on that, in terms of using it for aesthetics. MR. CAIMANO-Well, you run into a problem, I remember I had an argument with Stu Baker one night. You run into a problem, you've got to think about this. He was busting the chops of Mazda because they had their parking in front. Mazda, of course, is the car dealership. Well, every other car dealership in town has their cars up in front of their dealership. So now, all of a sudden, we make him put his cars on the side with the back, you put him at a commercial disadvantage to all of his competitors. You've got to be careful about that. I understand what you're saying. I think it would soften, certainly, the Million Dollar Half Mile that would be a much softer looking shopping area if that was green up front, and the parking was all in the back. Remember, you can't put somebody at a commercial disadvantage. MRS. MONAHAN-I will tell you something, Nick, as a great consumer, and a helper of economy, I tend to stop at the places that are visually impressive to me, rather than the ones where I can see all the cars parking. MR. CAIMANO-You may be, but if I'm a car dealer, and that guy, and that guy, and that guy have been allowed to show their cars up front, and now I come next door and you say, you can't show your cars up front, you've got to put them in the back. MRS. MONAHAN-Not in the back. MR. CAIMANO-That's what Stu Baker wanted to do. MRS. MONAHAN-Well, yes, but there's happy mediums. MR. CARTIER-But it doesn't have to be either or. It can be a combination of. MR. CAIMANO-No, no. There's a combination, that's correct. MRS. GOETZ-Could I ask the status of the affordable housing overlay, Betty? MRS. MONAHAN-Don't bother. MRS. GOETZ-Is it nonexistent? MRS. MONAHAN-Lee has done all her work. The Town Board hasn't tackled it. MR. MARTIN-I think that and the traffic study, and, obviously, in my spiel I went on about the rehab program. Those are my top three personally. MR. CARTIER-I think, in terms of ranking these, probably the best way to do this is to think in terms of scale. Which of these have the largest effect, and those are the things that we need to get a handle on now, first, and rank those. MRS. MONAHAN-Another thing that I don't think is here, and that's the corridor that comes in through West Glens Falls,..buying one residential lot and putting a commercial on it and getting all kinds of variances, and we're going to have a mess there. MR. BRANDT-When you say, a corridor through West Glens Falls? MRS. MONAHAN-Coming off the Northway. MR. BRANDT-At Corinth Road. MR. MARTIN-Yes, Corinth Road. MR. BRANDT-Coming into the City. MRS. MONAHAN-Yes. MR. MARTIN-Yes, she's right. That's definitely in transition. MRS. MONAHAN-We haven't done the transition correctly. 12 '- --.-/ MR. MARTIN-Right, that's what I mean. MRS. MONAHAN-We should have said, you've got to buy two lots. They've got to be this way. MR. CARTIER-We did, Betty, that's in the Ordinance. MRS. MONAHAN-Well, then, how come we've got all those up there, that you can squish them in? MR. CARTIER-I have no idea what's been going on up there, but when we built that zone in the Master Plan, we spent a lot of time on that very issue, that if you're going to commercialize that, you've got to put, I think, a one acre plot together. MR. TUCKER-You know what I see happening. A couple of times..they buy a home. They do not physically change the building on the outside, the building itself. They may tear down a garage and create a parking lot, but they do not change the original building. MRS. MONAHAN-And then they don't have room for the parking. MR. MARTIN-That's what happened with that restaurant we had come in there that, remember, we wanted, they had a swimming pool with it, and we told them to fill in the swimming pool' because we didn't want kids coming out of the restaurant, falling into the swimming pool in the dark. MR. TUCKER-Well, there's one being done up there right now that had a swimming pool. They've taken it out. They took the garage down. They're making parking behind the house. So, physically, they ha ven 't changed the house at all. All in front of the house, and ins i de the house is the way it is when it was a home. MRS. MONAHAN-Yes, but they had to have 30 percent permeable area. MR. TUCKER-Well, the project isn't done yet, but this is what they're doing. MR. BRANDT-I can tell you another problem that I ran into going in the neighborhoods in the same area you're talking about from the Corinth Road towards the City, between the Northway and, what's that, Richardson Street. In that area, you've got a bluff as you go to the south. You've got a commercial strip and then you've got a road parallel to Corinth Road with one layer, or one tier of houses, and then the bluff drops right off. As you put commercial right up to those homes, that's not fair to those folks. You've really got to take and zone all the way to the bluff so that people have to buy the homes and those folks can get out of there with a reasonable standard of living. In other words, when someone does a commercial..force them to buy the home and read, change the entire neighborhood. MRS. MONAHAN-And we've got to force them to buy a big enough lot. If they have to buy two homes. They have to do it. MR. TUCKER-Betty, correct me if I'm wrong. Don't we have a 75 foot setback all the way along the Corinth Road? MRS. MONAHAN-But not if it's on an existing footprint. MR. TUCKER-Yes, well, that's what I'm talking about, and a lot of those properties that are on the Corinth Road, when you required the 75 foot setback, the rest of the land that's there, they can't even build on. They don't have the room to build. MRS. MONAHAN-Because they should have bought two lots. MR. TUCKER-No, no. What I'm talking about is the individual homeowner, right now, that owns the property, is going to have difficulty selling his land or her land, because of the size of their lot and the regulations that somebody buying it has got to meet. MRS. PULVER-No. It's preexisting. If they leave it like that, they'll be fine, whoever buys it. MR. MARTIN-See, they can sell it as it is, but if they had a vacant lot, then they would have to conform to that 75 foot setback, but if they have a house on that lot already, and it's only 25 feet off the road, then they can sell that, because it's preexisting. It doesn't have to be moved 75 feet back. MR. TUCKER-No, but what I'm saying is, they've got a piece of property right there, okay, the lot, . . somebody comes along, doesn't even want the house, all they want is the 1 and, and they've got that 75 foot setback, and they don't have enough land left because all of those lots don't run halfway between.. . MR. MARTIN-I would think, then, though, and Sue can correct me if I'm wrong, but I would think, in that instance, they're going to qualify for a variance. If that's the only requirement they can't meet, then they're likely to get a variance. 13 ',,-- ----" MRS. GOETZ-It depends on when they bought the property. MRS. MONAHAN-But then, Jim, you're..the reason why we said the 75 foot setback. That was so that when the State comes in there, and we get better access to the Northway, we can put that road in without somebody having to pay billions of bucks to buy up what's there because somebody's just put up a new commercial building. MR. MARTIN-Yes, but you can't, through zoning, over-burden the property. That's why he would get the variance, because you can't deny him the right to use his property. MRS. GOETZ-Well, not necessarily. It would depend on when they bought the property and the self imposed hardship angle. MR. MARTIN-Right. MR. CARTIER-I think we're kind of getting ahead of ourselves, here. We're getting into stuff we need to talk about in Workshop Sessions. What I'd like to see us, or the Planning Board, is come out of here with some sort of direction. Do you want us to rank these things in some sort of order? MR. BRANDT-Yes, and I don't know if it's been said, but we want your input on how the Town is staffed and organized, so as to help you in your process. In other words, if we can reorganize or change how we're staffing and accelerate your work, so that gives you more time for planning in the long range picture, and we need to do that. MRS. MONAHAN-I think you're also asking them if there's anything that they could have the professional staff do that, some of the smaller things, so it doesn't have to go through Planning Board all the while. MR. CAIMANO-That's right. MR. BRANDT-Very much. We're interested in looking at that. MRS. MONAHAN-You know, like, you do Expedited items for one thing, now. MR. BRANDT-One of the things I've seen that concerns me in our process is when we have, we go through a public hearing about a project, and there's some controversy about that project, it takes a long time to resolve it, and I don't think that's good. I really don't, because I think we can force the discussions and try and get the concessions that we're looking for and get on with it. I don't know how to accelerate that, but I'd like to see it accelerated. MR. CAIMANO-For example? Do you have an example? MR. BRANDT-Sure. Look at the Charl ie Woods thi ng. I mean, that's an example. It's a tough one, but that's an example. MR. CAlMANO-But I think, lets play Devil's advocate, here. In fairness, your last comment is the operative one. It's a tough one. It puts the Town right smack between a very substantial commercial operation and the rights of private citizens. I think that any time you take on those kinds of things to look at every angle of it is time well spent. That's my personal opinion. MR. CARTIER-I agree. MR. CAlMANO-Because, in the final analysis, nothing we do is going to be right for both sides. MR. CARTIER-That's correct. MR. BRANDT-I know that, but does it take a year to do that? MR. CAIMANO-I don't know. MR. CARTIER-Wait a minute. We're not in control of that time, understand that, okay. We are not totally in control of that time, because there's time involved, when they're finished doing their DEIS and FEIS. We have no control over that. They've been in for two postponements. They're up this month. I had to Lee know these guys are up this month. They've got to come back in for an extension of time. So, understand, I've heard this before, Mike. This length of time it takes to get a project through, you have to narrow that time line down and look at what pieces of that time line the Planning Department and Planning Board is dealing with. You can't talk about, as someone did once, about the time it takes the guy to get his mortgage. We don't have any control over that, and there was a point where we were getting so much flack about that that we went back and looked at it. The average time to get a project through this Town is 55 days, and you compare that to other Towns around, that's a very short period of time. 14 '-, '--' MR. CAIMANO-Mike Baird was another problem gainer of it takes a long time syndrome, when and he built an entire Department on that. Part of the reason it took Mike Baird to get that time, most of the reason, was Mike Baird. Mike Baird simply wouldn't listen to what anybody told him. If somebody told him the 1 i ghts are on in hi s room, he woul d argue for months over it and take people to court, and, at one point, Lee York had to call the police to physically throw him out of. So, he built this entire Queensbury Business Development on this argument that the Planning Board, the Planning Board, took him a year, and the Town Board. It didn't take them a year in the process. It him a year, because he wouldn't sit down and do the work. It was wrong, and I resent that. I don't deny that there are rules and regulations in a bureaucracy that really are, they're stumbling blocks to good life. I don't deny that at all. You're absolutely right, but we have been under the gun for two issues, one being Charlie Wood, and the other being Mike Baird. He built an entire argument for everybody out there on an issue that was his fault. Nobody in this Town stopped Mike Baird from doing anything. Mike Baird stopped Mike Baird from doing something. MR. BRANDT-I don't even know what he was trying to do. MR. CAIMANO-I don't think he does. By the way, after all the bullshit, he came to us and said, I'm going to delay the project. MR. CARTIER-The first thing to ask, when somebody comes to you and complains about time involved is ask them, or point out to them, because we get to be the bad guys, ask them and point out to them, okay, look at your time, and how much of that total amount of time was spent getting through the planning process. I would venture to say that that's the shortest piece of time line, in this whole process. MRS. MONAHAN-See, Pete, the thing of it is, half these people out there that are bad-mouthing the Town, they won't admit that they didn't do their homework and they didn't get the required drawing, you know, it was the Town wouldn't do. They don't tell you what they would not do. MR. CARTIER-We're not going to fix everybody. MRS. MONAHAN-And, in fact, we've got one right now. Lee went up and said, I can't tell you how much time on this project trying to take this guy's hand and work him through the process. He's been nothing but a pain and the Planning Board finally gave this guy two or three opportunities to bring in the detail that he was supposed to bring in, the correct survey, not something on the back of an envelope. So, finally they turned him down. They said, we've given you all this opportunity. You won't listen. We deny the site plan. MR. MARTIN-Yes, but we were right at the edge of giving him another extension, and finally we got to thinking about it and, remember, we just said, there's only one way this guy's ever going to understand, and that's just get rid of it. MRS. MONAHAN-And I was at that meeting, so I know that that's a fact. MOTION TO ENTER EXECUTIVE SESSION TO DISCUSS PERSONfIEL MmRS, Introduced by Carol Pulver who moved for its adoption, seconded by James Martin: Duly adopted this 23rd day of November, 1991, by the following vote: AYES: Mrs. Pulver, Mr. Martin, Mr. Brewer, Mr. LaPoint, Mr. Caimano, Mr. Cartier NOES: NONE ABSENT: Mr. Lauricella tllTION TO REro. TO REGUlAR SESSION, Introduced by Carol Pulver who moved for its adoption, seconded by James Martin: Duly adopted this 23rd day of November, 1991, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Martin, Mr. Brewer, Mr. LaPoint, Mr. Caimano, Mrs. Pulver, Mr. Cartier NOES: NONE ---- ABSENT: Mr. Lauricella On motion meeting was adjourned. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED, Peter Cartier, Chairman 15