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1991-12-03 SP '--- - ð ---- IJ,IEENSBURY PLANNING BOARD MEETING SPECIAL MEETING DECEMBER 3RD, 1991 INDEX Discussion with the Warren County Planning Department and other interested people regarding Million Dollar Half Mile 1. THESE ARE NOT OFFICIALLY ADOPTED MINUTES AND ARE SUBJECT TO BOARD AND STAFF REVISIONS. REVISIONS WILL APPEAR ON THE FOLLOWING MONTHS MINUTES (IF ANY) AND WILL STATE SUCH APPROVAL OF SAID MINUTES. ~-,-....,....."., - #" "", " "' ,I '--- '../ IJ,IEENSBURY PINtNING BOARD MEETING SPECIAL MEETING DECEMBER 3RD, 1991 7:00 P.M. MEMBERS PRESENT PETER CARTIER, CHAIRMAN CAROL PULVER, SECRETARY TIMOTHY BREWER EDWARD LAPOINT JAMES MARTIN NICHOLAS CAIMANO MEMBERS ABSENT JAMES LAURICELLA SENIOR PlANNER-LEE YORK STENOGRAPHER-MARIA GAGLIARDI MR. CARTIER-We're here to deal with the Million Dollar Half Mile situation. I'm becoming more aware that a number of people have already been working on this issue for quite some time. I think the goal for tonight is two fold. Where are we, at this point. Who's doing what, and what direction are we going, and, secondly, where do we go from here. I'd like to walk out of this meeting with some direction as to where we're going and who's going to be doing what, and so on and so forth. Kind of an overview, I think, it seems to me the direction to go, here, is to think both in terms of long term solutions, and I would guess that everybody seems to agree that that involves four lanes up there. That's going to take some time, probably, to accomplish, but in the meantime, I think we can work on some short term, temporary solutions to the problem up there, and that may, in fact, be the direction that we might want to go tonight. It might be worthwhile, to get everybody up to speed as to where we are, is for those of you who have already been working on this to let the rest of us know where you are and what's been done so far, and, with that, I don't have any other remarks, except to open the floor, and take comments. Does anybody care to start. MRS. YORK-Mr. Chairman, I'd like to introduce Ken Carlson of DOT, and Mr. Carlson can probably bring the rest of us up to speed as to what's going on. MR. CARTIER-Okay. Great. KEN CARLSON MR. CARLSON-Thank you, Lee. I'm here, I'm a DOT employee, but what I'm here to describe is a study that the Glens Falls Transportation Counsel, which is a cooperative State and Local government transportation and planning entity, is involved in in the area that I think this proposal is being put forth. It's basically the overlap of Routes 149 and 9. In any event, because of numerous, a lot of expression of concern about traffic problems in that area, the Counsel has decided to use some Federal funds to take a close look at the problems, traffic problems, existing traffic problems due to both the commercially generated traffic and through traffic to Vermont, and tourist traffic and a lot of different patterns that seem to overlap, to take a look at those things and see what can be done, both, well, first, what can be done immediately, sort of short term things, like sharing driveways, perhaps, or developing some sort of a interconnecti on of properties, and perhaps improving the si gna li zati on, maybe some turning lanes, whatever needs to be done right now, and then, looking in the long range, some of the other kinds of improvements that could be done, including a bypass, moving the interchange, the full range of different possibilities that could be implemented, and also looking at ways to fund things like this, some innovative ways to fund it, because there just isn't a lot of State money to do these kind of things in the kind of fiscal climate that we find ourselves. So, that's sort of a brief description of what we're proposing to do. We're in the process, right now, of putting out a request for proposals, I have an outline of it, here, too, if anybody wants to take a look at it. We hope to have a consultant working on this in the near future and expect some results within six months or so, six to eight months, estimate. The reason I'm here, I guess, is to express concern that nothing is done, within reason, and taking into consideration hardship and so forth, but that nothing is done that forecloses or shuts us out, in terms of solutions, that may be beneficial or even needed by all the businesses in the area. So, I think we need to take a close look at what happens and be aware of any possible effects on future solutions. We don't know what those are. I'm not coming here with blueprints or anything like that. We don't know what the solutions are. We haven't done the study yet, obviously, but it will be looked at, and I'm not sure exactly where to proceed with all this, but I just want it to be considered. MR. CARTIER-It sounds like you're carrying the ball, in terms of long term solutions, is what I'm hearing from that request for proposals, in that you're going to put together something that's going to deal with the long term solutions. Is that a fairly accurate description? 1 ----.. ---- MR. CARLSON-Yes. Well, I think the study will look at short term things, too. The proposal, as it's written right now, well, let me just page through it here and make sure I'm not, basically, we're talking about identifying, if at all possible, some short term, some immediate actions that could be taken, also. MR. CARTIER-Okay. MR. CARLSON-Long term solutions are the kinds of things that would take many years to plan, finance, and implement, you know, perhaps wouldn't be needed for a few years, too. MR. CARTIER-Okay. Well, maybe that's what we can hammer out tonight, is get some idea as to some of the things that we could do on a short term basis. The six months that you refer to is, what, for? MR. CARLSON-That's just to do the study, to determine what. MR. CARTIER-Okay. That's to get proposals in and do a study? MR. CARLSON-That's right, get a consultant on board. We've got an RFP that's ready to go, and it's just a question of getting the administrative. MR. CARTIER-RFP? MR. CARLSON-Request for Proposals, which I have in front of me, and that will address the short term issues, too, to look for opportunities to make things work better. MR. CARTIER-And you are looking for proposals from anybody who would care to submit a proposal, is that correct? MR. CARLSON-Anyone who's qualified, yes, qualified engineering firms, that's right, and we hope to get that rolling in the very near future. MR. CARTIER-Okay. MR. CARLSON-So, I'm not in a position to say what the solutions are going to be. I can say the kinds of things that will be considered, and, you know, as I said before, they'd be, in the short term, the kinds of things you can do relatively cheaply and quickly, like interconnections between properties, improvements to traffic signals, these sort of things, sharing driveways, ways that you can channel the existing traffic more efficiently, so that it will flow a little bit better, recognizing those kinds of things probably not going to serve, in the long range, as traffic continues to grow, and people continue to expand. MR. CARTIER-Okay. Those are the kinds of things we can do without waiting, in other words. MR. CARLSON-Right. MRS. PULVER-I was going to say, is it wise to do those things while there's a study being done? I mean, won't that effect the study? I mean, if you start tampering with the traffic flow now, in the middle of a study, doesn't that effect the results of the study? MR. CARLSON-Well, yes. I think things are not going to change all that fast. I mean, there'll be some things that come out of the study. If people have good ideas that they want to implement, you know, I wouldn't let the study hold you up on it, but I think, is that going to be a problem? Is everybody ready to start sharing driveways tomorrow? I don't know. MR. CARTIER-Well, we can find out tonight. MRS. YORK-Ken, one big concern is pedestrian safety up there, and I think it's a concern of this Board, too, and maybe that's one area we could certainly attack, at this point in time, without taking any of the options that could come out of the study. MR. CARLSON-Well, actually, I think it would probably be a good idea to write it into our proposal, too, to make sure that it gets consideration. I don't think we have it addressed. MRS. YORK-Well, maybe out of this discussion tonight, you can find some items that would enlarge your scope of services. MR. CARLSON-Exactly. I don't really know as we'll be able to come up with anything concrete, in terms of, we don't really have the tools to do it. MRS. YORK-Would you tell the Board who you've been meeting with, and what has been progressed, up until this point, with this whole issue. I'm sure a number of you who are here tonight can enlighten us 2 ----.. --' as to what has been going on with traffic on this corridor and who has been involved. There hasn't been a great deal of communication between different Boards and different organizations reviewing traffic and development along here. So, we're just trying to get up to speed and establish some communication linkages, at this point in time. So, if you could tell us what's been going on, to date, with this, if you've been involved with other people and other organizations. MR. CARLSON-Well, we really haven't, to be honest with you. The Transportation Counsel, which includes Town and County and, well, basically, Town and County representation, you know is aware of the problems and has put this thing together, but there hasn't really been a lot of interaction with the business community or with anybody else. I think that's, you know, one of the reasons we're here is to get your ideas and your concerns and make sure that we get them addressed in a study. MR. CARTIER-Yes. Along those same lines, on the end of that table, next to Ken, is a yellow sign up sheet, and if you are either an individual or representing an agency here, I would ask that you sign up there so that you can get, not only get minutes of this meeting tonight, if you want them, and I'm sure you do, but also whatever agency that you're involved with, when you are dealing with the Million Dollar Half Mile, that everybody on that list will share in those minutes. So, we don't end up re-inventing the wheel all the time. This is what I'd like to get by tonight is find out where everybody is and where we go from here on this issue. Is there anybody else? Sir? RALPH BARROWE MR. BARROWE-Ralph Barrowe, Warren County Planning Board. Being on the Warren County Planning Board, I've been kind of watching this for about a year, and two things that I notice that really block up the traffic, and it's the inability to be able to make a right turn at 149 on a red light, and at the two entrances of the through-way. Now, if you get two cars coming up the 149, not making a turn, the third car, if he wants to make a right turn, cannot, okay, because he's blocked. So, if we had right turn lanes there, and on the two entrances to the Northway, good, long lanes so that the people could get over, and continue and keep the flow, and I watch this and this causes a great deal of problems, not being able to get a continuous flow on the right hand turns. The second thing that I see is, people do not use the middle lane for making the left hand turns. They will turn, from the right hand turn, come across the middle lane, while they're trying to make the turn, they tie up traffic. If we could sign that, and I don't mean two or three signs, I mean, sign it, every driveway there is there, left turn from center lane, and we might help it a great deal, I believe. MR. CARTIER-Okay. Would that be a State function, to do that? Is there enough room out there, now, to just, in terms of paint lines, painting lanes in to get a right turn lane onto 149? MR. BARROWE-You'd have to do some temporary fill, I think, and maybe some temporary macadam, until you get, maybe, to the point where you get four lanes in there, and even if you get four lanes, I still think you'll need a right turn lane. MR. CARTIER-Eventually, yes. MR. BARROWE-I think so, unless you look about going behind these buildings and making roadways down there, but then you're going to start getting involved with bridges, and that's not cheap. MR. CARLSON-When is there a problem? When does that problem happen? MR. BARROWE-As soon as you have two cars stop at anyone of those traffic lights, that are going straight through, the third car cannot get past them to make a right hand turn. So, it's a problem all year long, more so in the SURmer time, but I've been watching this because I've been waiting for what's going to happen when we get a petition before the County Board and be able to address the situation and that is, I think, is about the two major stumbling blocks, besides the amount of traffic, but I think this would cut down a great deal, because there's a lot of traffic that goes out 149. It goes past there because they have to get off the Northway there, and if we can keep those people moving, I think we could help the situation a great deal. MR. CARTIER-So, if we had, like, at 9 and 149, if we had a right turn only lane, and a straight through lane. MR. BARROWE-Right, an extra lane, and as long as you can possibly make it, not a little, short thing. Get enough to make it six, seven, eight cars that can get in there. MR. CARTIER-Are there two lanes there, now, going north? MR. BARROWE-You have a lane in each direction, and a center lane. MR. CARTIER-At the light? MR. BARROWE-The whole section through there, that's all you have. 3 '-- --- MR. BREWER-At the light, Pete, there's, it's one lane and then it turns into two. MR. CAIMANO-Left turn lane into the Warren County Municipal Center, but that's all. MR. BARROWE-That's the only place where they designate anything. MR. CAIMANO-But that's a left turn only. MR. BARROWE-But if we could get people making those right turns to be able to continue to flow, I think we'd help a lot. MR. CARTIER-Okay. What I'm thinking of, does that center lane run all the way up to the light at 149? MR. BARROWE-Yes. MR. CAIMANO-Yes. It goes all the way to 254. MR. CARTIER-Suppose you could convert a portion of that center lane up there to straight through only. MR. BARROWE-It doesn't go through the intersection. MR. CAIMANO-It doesn't go through the intersection. MR. BARROWE-I think you're going to confuse people if you change those lanes. I think you've got to add a lane. MR. CARTIER-Well, I'm trying to find a way of splitting off the right turning traffic, somehow, relatively simply, just by painting lines. MRS. PULVER-But if you take the center lane, then you've taken that left turn only option away. MR. CARTIER-True. MR. CARLSON-Yes. There are standards, on a State highway, for State projects that, you know, we can't just do anything that looks good, okay. Their standards would have to be, you know, and we have a whole traffic engineering operation to try and work these things out. Part of the difficulty here, though, I think, is what our engineers are used to designing for is commuter traffic, you know, it's p.m. peak hour, basically, or it might be four to five o'clock in most areas, but, in this corridor, you know, we've got lots of different kinds of patterns that happen that, you know, ways that I don't think traffic engineers really understand. We've got the skiers. We've got the truck traffic going through to Vermont. It's a through route. We've got the summer tourists, and the way these things overlap is not simple, and it's not going to be all that easy to come up with something that works. I don't think it's going to be possible to come up with something that works 100 percent of the time, but what we're going to try and do is to look at a lot of these different patterns, and I think what we've told the consultant to do is to look at the worst case, what we think is the worst case, which is, like, a summer holiday traffic. Tell me if we're right or wrong about this. I think what we, we have counts from Labor Day to work with. I hope that will serve as the worst case. MR. CAIMANO-Well, the third thing, too, is the pedestrian bridge, right? MR. CARTIER-Yes. That's a possibility. MR. CAIMANO-A pedestrian bridge so that people can park their car in one spot and go across the highway. MR. CARLSON-That would help with that sort of thing, right, but from a designer standpoint, you know, you have to pick some sort of a situation to design for. You can't design for everything. You have to settle on some numbers, in terms of, how many vehicles are going through each lane in an hour, and that's the way designers do these things. In this area, it's very variable. It depends on the season, a lot. It depends on the day of the week. I'm not sure what it depends on, but that's what we need to figure out, here. So, what we've told the consultant to do is to look at a summer weekend, the worst traffic you can pullout of that, or, holiday weekend, and then to look at a typical summer day to see what he gets, and then to also look at an average day over the year, just any old day, to see sort of what is normally out there. Now, if there are any other patterns that you think we ought to put in there. MR. BARROWE-Rainy days in the summer. MR. CARLSON-Yes. We've heard that, that rainy days in the summer are a problem, but, to be honest with you, I don't know if we can design for a rainy day. MR. BARROWE-No, but you get your maximum traffic flow, and you can design for that. 4 ----.. '--/ MR. CARLSON-Yes, well, the standard practice, and I don't know if we can really use standard practice, here, but standard practice is the highest peak that you could find any time in a year. Standard practice is used the 30th hour to go down from the worst to, like, the 30th, in terms of volume. I don't think we can do that, here. I think we need to look, a little bit more innovatively, but, on the other hand, I don't think we can design for the absolute worst case, either. In other words, we'd be building things that would really only be used several days out of the year. I don't think you'd want to pay for something like that, but, I agree, if we could get data on that, it probably would be good, to just give us some perspective, in terms of what we're going to have to handle. MR. CARTIER-I think, the way I see that thing going up there is that that area is going to become at least a three season heavy traffic area. MR. CARLSON-What'll be the seasons? MR. CARTIER-Well, I think the winter ski traffic, that's going to become a place to stop, on their way through Vermont. So, I think we'll probably see, maybe not as heavily impacted as it is in the summer time, but I think we'll see heavy traffic there in the winter time. I think you'll get the fall tourist, the leaf tourist thing, and I think what we've got to do is we've got to look at it from a year round perspective. MR. MARTIN-What I think Peter's trying to say is, when you do those 30 hours, like you're saying, is, typically, you may see a wide variation in accounts, from your peak hour down to your 30th hour, but I don't think, in this particular situation, you're going to see a wide variation. I think, if you were to graph it, they're going to go up high and they're going to stay pretty high. So, you're saying, well, you probably don't want to pay for something you're only going to use seven days a year. I don't think you're only going to use it seven days a year. I think you're going to use it more like, maybe, on a scale of half the year, literally. MR. CARLSON-Right, but I don't think you'd have the summer rainy day conditions, that many days. MR. MARTIN-Yes, but what I'm saying is, this corridor, Christmas traffic, ski traffic, I mean, we're talking January and February. You get a lot of traffic in through there. I mean, so, you're saying, well, you don't want to pay for the Cadillac, here, because you're only going to use it seven days a year. Well, I think maybe the Cadillac, in this case, is necessary, because, not only are we just designing for what's there, there's proposals, now, for even more growth there. MRS. PULVER-Yes, I think it's going to be an all year thing. MR. CAIMANO-I do, too. MRS. PULVER-In the spring time, you're going to have senior citizens tour buses coming through shopping, and in the summer, and the Adirondack stampede in the fall. MR. MARTIN-And you have Americade. MR. BARROWE-I think you misread something when I said rainy days, because that was to give you the worst possible days. MR. CARLSON-All right. Fine. MR. BARROWE-The rest of the summer is not good by any means. MR. CARLSON-Right. MR. BARROWE-You could be backed all the way up to the Municipal Center. MR. CARLSON-I think I understand. So, what we have in the proposal, right now, is, I guess it doesn't include the rainy day in the summer. We don't really know how to take, I guess you just have to have guys waiting around until it rains, or something, with the traffic counters, but if we can get that data, we'll certainly use it. We don't have it right now. MR. CAIMANO-Without trying to be funny, I think we're muddying the waters with the rainy days. MR. CARLSON-Yes. I don't think it's a big issue, but what we have written in here right now is holiday weekend, and then normal summer, which I think, midweek summer, and then, maybe we need more than just average, rest of the year. What you're telling me is that there's a winter peak, too, in January and February, that maybe we ought to get some data on, and see what we have out there then. MR. CARTIER-I don't know if it's there now. I'm not saying it's there now, but I think it will be, eventually. MR. CARLSON-It's not going to be there, yes, it won't be there until the ski, it's the ski traffic. 5 --./ '~ MR. MARTIN-Because I live on Route 149, and I see, on Sunday night, the westward bound traffic, in the evening from four to six at night, four to seven at night, is just, it's virtually non stop, on Sunday evening. MR. CARLSON-Well, the reality is, to get from Vermont to New York, there's really just a couple of lanes of pavement. You're either there or you're down on Route 7, or there's one road over through Cambridge, and there isn't any other way. MR. MARTIN-Right. Well, especially, if you go from here north. and that's where a lot of the major ski areas are in Vermont. a major artery into northern Vermont. Your options are even more limited, They're north of here. So, thi s is MR. CARTIER-The other thing, too, I think, is, in any proposal that's done, I would not like to see it limited to just the Half Mile strip. I think we have to think even longer term, that there's going to be expansion of the kind we're seeing now, south, all the way down to Aviation Road, Quaker Road, Aviation Road. I don't know about north. You're going to run into the Adirondack Park stuff, but there's a piece of land north of that, too, that I think is going to expand along the same lines, and I think, in any long term study, we need to plan ahead for that, too. DAVID KENNY MR. KENNY-For the record, David Kenny, owner of the Adirondack Factory Outlet Mall, Days Inn. There has been meetings on this, and I guess that's what you want to be updated on. MR. CARTIER-Yes. MR. KENNY-And there's probably been three or four meetings with Warren County, with the Glens Falls Transportation Department, and with the State of New York. Some of the concerns that were raised, you know, more so than, is there a traffic problem there now, at certain times, a few times a year there is, but more of the concern was, what is going to happen in the future, and the tremendous influx of people going to and from Vermont, and the State was at this meeting, and more or less felt, well, as everybody knows, did get past this past week with Washington with all its money, Federal money, for the interstate connecting roads, and this was brought to our attention at one of these meetings, and there is going to be major money available if it's a highway going from one state to another, and, supposedly, is what somebody from the State had told us, and the concern, on this particular stretch of road was, in the year 2005, or the year 2010, you know, right now, there's over 12 or 13,000 cars a day traveling through into either Vermont or getting off at that exit. Now, the study, when we had spoken to the State and Warren County Transportation Department, and the Glens Falls, because, at that time, there was no study being done on this road. The study was going to be done at the Quaker Road intersection, and this was upgraded to a Level Three or a Level One. There are three studies being done by the Glens Falls Transportation Department. One happens to be this one now, but until the meeting about two months ago, it wasn't part of the study. The other one would be, I believe, some place in Fort Ann, and there's one in South Glens Falls, coming into the City of Glens Falls, are the three areas they're looking at studying now. MR. BREWER-The Corinth Road, 149, and 9 and 149. MR. KENNY-Yes, the Corinth Road was, but there's three. This wasn't one of them, at the time, and the concerns, one of the biggest problems they had, even though it's not that often, but it is often enough, where traffic, and this is where the State became involved, because, Fred Lamy isn't here tonight, he's the Warren County Sheriff, but he's the one that raised the issue, was traffic backing up onto the Northway, at the exit. When you're coming up the exit way, at this point here, this is when traffic will be backed up onto the Northway, and, at that point, the State became very involved, because there's a problem, and it's a major problem, and that is a hazard, and they have corrected it a little bit because they tried to widen that exit and make it a two lane exit now, but it's a temporary fix it, but the State, when I had heard, and we talked about a study, we were talking a study more like what Mr. Cartier's talking about a study, is basically the Miller Hill Road, where it's four lanes now coming up off Aviation Road to four la~es leaving Lake George. I mean, it doesn't take a genius to look at a situation and say, you have four lanes on one side. You have four lanes on the other side of you, and a major exit in the middle coming into two lanes. That's the most heavily used exit on the Northway. It's bound to bottleneck at certain times. I'm not saying we're in favor of four lanes. No one is saying we think it should be four lanes, but we do think a study should be done, and the State has agreed to do this study, or the Glens Falls Transportation, has agreed to upgrade it to this point, and to look at the whole issue, what's going to happen in the year 2000, or the year 2010. I mean, here, it seems to me we're talking, today, what traffic is going to happen on that road this summer. I'd li ke to know what do we think's going to happen there in the year 2005. I think we're really, you know, if we're talking about tomorrow, I don't think there's a problem there today. I don't think there's a pedestrian problem. I don't think there's a traffic problem. You have to wait five minutes. I'm worried about, you know, I can remember just three years ago when there was no traffic going in there, or four years ago. I can remember seven years ago when you could leave Albany on the Northway and there was no traffic coming up past Saratoga. Now, there's constant traffic. There's more and 6 --../ '-----' more people using that road as an interstate to Vermont, and, in the year 2000, if there's 25,000 cars projected on that road, or the year 2005, hopefully, we can address it today and plan for the future, not sit back and say, lets look at short term things. To me, that was more the purpose of the study than the short term. The short term, one of the solutions, I would agree with this gentleman, is we had talked about at these meetings, it was Mr. Lamy's suggesti on, thi s is all County property, supposedly, and a lot of the back up happens right here. A car going straight on 9 backs up everybody trying to make a left hand turn onto Gurney Lane and get on the Northway going south. Now, why there is no turn lane here so that traffic would never stop flowing through is just because one was never put in. MR. CARTIER-You're talking south bound? MR. KENNY-South bound traffic heading, when the ski traffic leaves on a Sunday night or whatever, it gets bottled up here. One car hits this intersection, here, that's going straight, it backs traffic up all the way, and traffic would flow very smoothly, never stop, if there was a turn lane here. The land is there. It's County land, I believe. It's very easily done. That was one possible, short term solution. The problem with putting the turn lane down here, there are some problems, because the Dunhams building is right there. People have looked at it, and that's where the study was going to come in and possibly look at these issues, but I really think the primary purpose of the study was to look at the year 2000, and not to look at tomorrow. MR. CARTIER-Well, I don't think we're saying we're either going to do short term or we're going to do long term. I think what we're talking about is doing both, and when you talk long term study, we're talking about a long time before something ends up, physically, on the ground, that is going to deal with these things, and I think what we also need to do, though, is to consider, from tOday until that point that something's on the ground that comes out of this long term study, as the short term that we have to deal with, and it seems like what we need to do is come up with some short term solutions to that, okay. MR. KENNY-Yes, and that's what the State had basically said at this meeting, that there was really no money available. Steve Borgos was there, and the possibility is, if something comes out of this that possibly the Town can work on, or whatever, the State, more or less at that point in time said, the money is there to do the study, because there's been a lot, to do three studies a year, and if we get on the list, the Glens Falls Transportation Counsel has agreed to put us on that list, because they saw the problem, but until that study is finished and complete, I mean, without a study, we're really talking, you know, none of us are transportation experts. I mean, there's been talk on the road already, from the business people up there, should we have four lanes, shouldn't we have four lanes. As a matter of fact, a petition's been signed by some people that don't want to see four lanes, and I more or less explained to them, how can you give an answer before you see the problem. If the State does a study and comes out with recommendations and they make projections, that's what should be done. I don't want to give the answer before they do a study. I think now we're talking about trying to solve some problems, I mean, some of the concerns that I would have I think the Town has addressed in its Master Plan, you know, keep the new buildings 75 feet off the road along there, so if there is a need to widen the road, we can. The road situation, I don't believe the Town of Queensbury can deal much with it. It's a State road, and the State has to come in and help us there. So, pedestrian walkways or sidewalks I think are great. I think if we can communicate more access roads, you know, connecting properties, for the future, is a great idea, but there has been meetings, and I was at three of them, and Mr. Lamy has some major concerns, even though it's only two or three days out of the summer when it really effects us seriously, when it's a rainy day, like Labor Day weekend one day. I mean, it was grid locked. MR. CARTIER-But, understand. it's not going to get better. It's going to get worse. MR. MARTIN-I don't think it is just two or three days in the summer. I disagree. I live in that area. I go through there all the time, and it's just not two or three days in the summer. MR. KENNY-Well, I guess what the State, at that point in time said, it's busy there during the summer time, and you're backed up for five minutes, but it's not a traffic hazard. The State, you know, there's a lot of other areas in the State, and I can sympathize with the State, that are a lot worse than Queensbury. We just happened to be used to driving from Point A to Point B without being stopped. That is great for the Town of Queensbury, but that is not the rest of New York State, and the State has a lot more serious, what they consider more serious problems than this particular intersection, according to the State. So, that was there position. What they consider problems is when traffic backs up onto the Northway, when it's total gridlock. Now you have a problem, but if traffic is backed up where you have to sit in traffic five minutes, the State's not going to come in and say, we've got to take care of this right away. Until it becomes a hazard, which, here, it has become a certain hazard, because traffic is backing out onto the Northway. When that happened, when Fred Lamy mentioned that, it was like. MR. CARTIER-Okay. Now the State's involved. MR. KENNY-Now the State's involved, because they're afraid, when traffic gets backed out onto the interstate, we have a problem. 7 , ---" -- MR. CARTIER-Okay. MR. CARLSON-We are working on some solutions to those short term things right now, but they're not completely done yet. When I said we weren't involved very much before, I guess I was really speaking more for the Counsel. We all wear a lot of different hats, and I know that people from the Department, I think it's at the Warren County Public Safety, is that? MR. KENNY-Right. There was two meetings with them. MR. CARLSON-Yes, right, and these issues were raised. MR. KENNY-I think that's what got this whole ball of wax rolling, but I'm a little concerned when I hear you talking about, and when he mentioned, I was under the impression the study that was going to be done was on the section on Route 9, the future growth of the area from Miller Hill Road almost right into Lake George. This happens to be the peak section of that road, but to do a study just for this road, this one Half Mile, and we're more or less looking at 15 years down the road, as business expands north and south of this particular intersection, it's going to be a business district, and can we deal with it now. I do believe Queensbury has answered some of their problems by going back, two years ago, trying to get business to build 75 feet off the road, for the possible expansion of, we consider that a major roadway through the Town of Queensbury, but we can't widen the road, and we're not saying the road should be widened at this time. I think what we're looking for is a study to look at the year 2000, the year 2005, and if you come back and say there's going to be 30,000 cars on the road on a day, possibly then, it should be widened. I don't know. That I can't answer. MR. CARLSON-What we have in proposal here is for the consultant to look at 10 years out and 20 years out, and to look at, also, perhaps, if it makes sense, some different scenarios for development. In other words, different amounts of commercial development and what that would mean, you know, different intensities, different densities, what have you, to see what different kinds of improvements will support, you know, perhaps if you limited the density a little bit, you might be able to get away with some lesser, you know, maybe another lane on, one lane, or something, I don't know, something less than a full four lane, or maybe it would be possible to deal with it by moving the interchange. We told them to look at all these possibilities and sort of line them up so that people can say, well, okay, here are the costs and benefits of several different ways of going, and which way do we want to go, and that's what we're hoping to get out of this thing. We're going to try and direct it so that we get that kind of a presentation. It'll say, here's a couple of scenarios you could take, and which way do you want to go. MR. KENNY-And I guess the other fact is the point you mentioned, funding, which the State brought to our attention, was that, being this is a main interstate into Vermont, and the possibility of getting federal money from this new federal grant that was just passed, that's basically what that money is ear marked for, is for these types of projects. MR. CARLSON-Yes, highways of national significance, I believe they're calling it. MR. KENNY-Yes, right. Well, highways connecting one state to another. MR. CARLSON-Right. MR. KENNY-And so, if this study's being done now, we're on the front burner of this money, you know, it may not be the year 2000, but there's possible funding available, and I think, when a study is done, this will be realized as the main connecting route to Vermont. It hasn't been designated that yet, but I think that is the case, and I think everybody in Queensbury's aware of the traffic going by our doors going into Vermont and that's why the outlet malls and the shopping are there, because it's a major pass by route. They're not there because it's not a major hi ghway or not a major route. So, that's a possible way to get the funding and that's what was brought to our attention at this meeting with Warren County. MR. CARLSON-Now, one thing that should be noted, also, I think that it looks like there will be some money to do this sort of thing, but one way to get it sooner is to have, and, you know, it's going to be competitive. It's still going, is not that much money. It's just a fairly small amount of money and an awful lot of projects that are crying to be done, and there's a lot of places where we've got grid lock and we have operational problems where we really have to spend it. So, you can't really count on it coming through in time. One of the ways to make it work faster and work better is to have some sort of a local contribution, which makes the project much more competitive in that sort of free for all, or whatever you want to call it, the competition to get funded. MR. KENNY-That was discussed also. MR. CARLSON-That makes the numbers work a whole lot better, if you can put something together like that. 8 "- ---./ MR. KENNY-Well, again, on that point, that was mentioned, and it was mentioned the fact that if the property owners along that stretch of road were willing to cooperate with whatever study was done with the people, rather than to fight it, it would make it a much more salable project. MR. CARLSON-Right. MR. KENNY-And that's where we would get involved, trying to say, you know, we're all for the study. I can't tell you whether all the property owners, at this time, are for it or against it until they see the study again, but the consensus is basically, they would like to see the study done and, hopefully, we can get all the property owners to cooperate as much as possible. We can't break arms or anything, but we can do the best we can. MRS. YORK-Do you have an organization of the businesses up there, some kind of affiliation? MR. KENNY-Not really, no. I mean, we've met. We've talked, and we all have different philosophies, but there is a lot more cooperation tOday than there has been in the past. MR. MARTIN-What do you think the reaction would be to some sort of a business improvement district, with a special tax assessment district, that the owners of that area up there who are directly benefiting from such improvements, to use that as a source of this local map? MR. KENNY-I guess some of the businesses along there feel. going back four years ago or five years ago, that that district contributes about two million dollars to Warren County sales tax base and a couple hundred thousand dollars to the Town tax base. That wasn't there, without getting anything from the Town or anything from the community, really. There's five hundred jObs being benefited by the area. I do believe, five years ago, if anyone of those businesses came to you, and when there was no development up there, and said, look, we're going to generate 60 million dollars in sales, put 500 people to work, what can we get from you, the IDA and the people gave CB Sport what they gave CB Sport would have probably given us the world, you know, and that's the competition. Some of the developers that come up here get in other areas, to bring this type of development into an area. They put sewer in for them, economic development. I'm not saying they wouldn't agree to a tax situation, but I don't believe that they don't do, I mean, that's one of the stigmas on that area which I take offense to, is that we don't do anything for the community but cause traffic problems and everything else. What we're doing, basically, is stopping people going to Vermont and getting some of their money for New York State before they go to Vermont, and I would think Warren County would be grateful to get that three percent sales tax. MR. CARTIER-Okay. I'm sure they are, but I think we're getting side tracked, here. Lets get back on track, here. What I want to do is break this down into long term stuff and short term stuff. Is there anybody here who would care to address the long term solution issue? MR. CAIMANO-I would like to make a comment, and the comment is when you talk about long term and you talk about having somebody like the State, who doesn't care about that speech you just made, there's no guarantee that that would be the route that goes to Vermont. I mean, especially with the burn plant, now. You could see somebody come up and say, lets do the Quaker Road across to the Hinter Lands and go that way to Vermont. So, you want to be careful, especially with him here. MR. KENNY-Well, that comment was made at the meeting, also, that the State has basically never considered that to be the major route. They always wanted the major route to be at Exit 17 where they put the clover leaf exit in. MR. CAIMANO-That's correct. MR. CARLSON-There's a sign there that says Rutland. MR. CAlMANO-That's correct. MR. KENNY-And one of the things, you don't stop natural traffic patterns. MR. LAPOINT-Well, the reason why it doesn't work is because it's still quicker to go through our traffic jam and get to the Northway than it is to go through Fort Edward or Hudson Falls, and the minute that our i ntersecti on becomes longer and slower, people will go the other way, the truckers, everybody. That's just natural. MR. KENNY-I won't disagree with that. I think, at some point in time, hopefully, there will be some solution. I would like to see either 149 widened, possibly, or this, the long term planning, I mean, I can see, possibly, Exit 17 cutting straight across to Vermont and bypassing Hudson Falls and bypassing everything else in the future. MR. CARTIER-Lets not get into Exit 17 and Fort Edward tonight. That's two other counties. I don't mean to cut you off, but I want to keep moving along, here. Is there anybody else who'd care to address the .l.Q!!.g, term issues, for Mr. Carlson, anything that he wants to get into? If not, what I'd like to 9 ',,--, --' do is get into the short term stuff, that is, those kinds of things that we can do to solve the problem until the results of Mr. Carlson's study kick in, okay. I've just sort of been picking through things, here. These are the areas I think we ought to look at, in terms of short term, pedestrian traffic flow patterns, that's been mentioned tonight, internalize the traffic flow somehow, that's been internalized tonight. Lee York mentioned something about somebody from, Mrs. Ray. MRS. YORK- Yes. MRS. PULVER-Glens Falls Transportation. MR. CARTIER-Yes, in terms of getting some bus stops located up there, and bus shelters that would gear people into those particular areas. Rather than have a bus make a number of stops, it makes just a few stops. We've heard about right turn lanes, stacking lanes, tonight. Another possibility is, on both sides of the road, have some of these entrances and exits delineated entrance only or exit only, right turn only, that sort of thing. We can do something like that, and maybe even reduce some curb cuts there, so we can get some traffic flowing more smoothly. Is there anybody who'd care to address all of those issues or offer some solutions and give us some direction to go on some of these things? I think that's where we need to go. DAVE EATS MR. EATS-My name is Dave Eats. I'm the regional manager for Dexter Shoe. Just a couple of comments I wanted to address to Mr. Carlson, just really briefly, and these come from a merchants point of view, more than as a resident. The business is a little bit flatter than you actual think. For the four quarters, the peak quarter is about 35 percent of the business that's done for the year. There are two quarters that do about 25 percent, and a quarter that does about 15 percent of the business. The reason that we talk to you about the rain days is that, on an average day, lets say in July, which is not normally, the first two weeks of July is not normally peak traffic season. That's just general business. On one of those days, we might normally sell 200 pairs of shoes. On a rain day, that number could jump to 700. It is just the most astronomical thing that you can absolutely imagine. So, when we talk about a rain day being an unpredictable kind of a situation, I can understand your problem. From our point of view, we're more than happy to cooperate with you. We could give you the 10 busiest weekends we do out of the year and give you some kind of a rough idea of what the differences are between some of those days. If you get in touch with us, we'd be more than happy to give you, at least, some background data for filling that in. For some of what Mr. Kenny had to say and what we feel, you know, we have a real good understanding of what the street was and what 149 was and Route 9 was when we first came here in 1983. From the time that we opened, this store has been the busiest store that we have. We have 24 locations in Vermont, New York. This store still remains one of the busiest locations that we have. Warren County Tourist Department is the best tourist department in the State. I do business in Niagra Falls. I do business in Rochester, Syracuse, everywhere. There isn't anyone that beats Warren County Tourism, and what's developed on the Million Dollar Half Mile is a third tourist attraction, and it's a vibrant tourist attraction. You've got Great Escape. You've got Lake George. You have that Factory Outlet Shopping Center, and, from our point of view, as a merchant, you need to think about it, or all of us who are merchants in the area and businessmen' in the area, and this is what we're beginning to talk about among ourselves. We have to think of it as a single unit shopping center. 1'11 give you an example. From the doorway of the Adirondack Factory Outlet to the Dexter doorway is 525 steps, paces. From Caldor, in the Crossgate Shopping Center, to JC Penney, is also 525 steps. So, what you have is a massive shopping center that's divided by a street that goes right down the middle of it. For us, we've heard the long term planning and all that other kind of business about what's possible. We're hoping that all of us can get together, what we can do with our direct neighbors to try to make it a little bit easier. Bob will address some of these things for us, but what we want everyone to look at are some of the amenities for making this a viable tourist attraction, like Great Escape does, like Lake George does, or whatever, because for us, and for the County as a whole, like Dave said on the tax base, it's a third major tourist attraction. It is the best shopping center location from Montreal to New York Center. Forty percent of our business this summer is Canadian. There is no question about the fact that that is a hot stri p. We need, for our own purposes, because we stand in the front windows of our own building and we cringe when we see the folks go across the street to Dunham, well, not from that point of view, but from a pedestrian traffic point of view. It's, everyone takes their own chance on that street. It's not channeled. Pedestrian traffic is not channeled, and if I go back to the Crossgates analogy, for the customers safety, which is really my main concern, the customer, that pedestrian traffic has to be channeled. For short term solutions, you know, we're hoping for something, collectively, that is doable, workable, pragmatic, and as barrier free as maybe any of us can get together and make it, and when I say barrier free, you know, that's kind of like the pedestrian bridge. During the most peak period of time, maybe it will get used, but our concern is that people will just take the shortest way across. So, we're interested in doing a lot of the short term solutions. Bob Joy is working with us, and he has some constructive comments. BOB JOY MR. JOY-Mr. Chairman, I'm Bob Joy. For the record, I'm an architect here in Glens Falls, and we did start out getting interested in this situation, along with Mike Ingersall and Chris Tatich of the LA Group, because we've been working with Dexter on a project of their own. At this point, our roles 10 ----- '---' have sort of di verged, and we've offered, as I menti oned to Lee York today, to provi de some des i gn assistance to do some of the short term, interim things, before Ken and his study and his work can get through the budget cycle and the approval process, and so forth. We've offered to provide some design expertise as sort of a community involvement effort on our Staff. So, what we'd like to do is maybe, we've started, Mike Ingersall went with me and we found these aerial photographs in the Town Hall and had them reproduced, and it begins to bring into focus, very quickly, what the growth has been there. These were done in 1988, and I don't know if you can see from the back, but we've sort of penciled in all the changes since then, and the growth has been tremendous. These are issues that have really come to the forefront in recent years. What we've got are two different drawings that we can get copies of for the various Boards. I think the Planning Board, Lee, I think you've got some from last time, perhaps, but we can get some prints. This scale is double the one here, and, obviously, this shows more of the traffic situation and the exits and entrances to the Northway and this shows more of a parking lot situation. I'd like to bring a little different perspective, maybe more akin to David's comments than some of the others. Ken, when you talk about the traffic study, I think one of the problems here is that if we look at simply a traffic solution, we may lose the benefit of this as a shopping center, and I think there are a lot of different types of traffic, not just through traffic, but I think one of the things that can be done, short term, that also has a long term impact, as far as your study is reducing the cross traffic back and forth by cars, and either getting cars between properties with some connectors, where the topography allows us to do it, or allowing people, encouraging people to simply park in one area and walk around, if there are even some simple things like crosswalks, sidewalks, landscaping, some of the pedestrian amenities. I think we learned, in downtown Glens Falls, and a number of the other downtown areas that we've worked in, that sometimes traffic studies solve one problem and create a whole host of other ones, when they don't consider the pedestrian, they don't consider the retail environment, and they simply solve how many cars you can get through a light in a given amount of time, and how much pavement you can get in between building lines, and I would hope that in part of your RFP, or part of your study, and certainly in the review that's done by the County Board and the Town Planning Board and other interested groups, that that component is really addressed. I think that's an essential part. I think Dave's right on the mark when you have to picture this as Aviation Mall with a highway through the middle. It needs to function as a shopping center, and I think they're learning the same thing over in Vermont, and they're learning in some of the other areas. If you've been over to Manchester, a lot of people walk all over there and you have the same problem, people out in front of cars on the street, people walking through driveways, cars sort of jamming on their breaks. They've got a problem intersection there. I think we can see what can quickly happen if this continues without some sort of overall solution or cooperation, and I guess what we're hoping is that maybe we can provide some of the pieces of the puzzle. It seems like we've got State interest, County interest, Town interest, the business community, and maybe we can bring some of the design professionals involved to sort of pull all of this together, from Dave, some of the conversations and studies, I think you get to a certain point, you get to a dead end because somebody else has to take the next step. I guess the hope we had, and certainly our appreciation to the Town Planning Board, here, is to maybe get things off dead center and begin to take some small steps. I think, David, I can speak for Dexter and perhaps one or two properties next to you, that you've talked about, that whatever comes out of this, in the way of short term solutions that the group feels would be worthwhile, you're willing to do a demonstration project to at least show what could be done, whether it's a crosswalk across the street that makes it easier to get to your competitor, or vice versa, or whether it's allowing space for future expansion in the design of their particular project so that the short term solutions don't get torn up in three, or four, or five years to make way for the long term ones, whether it's landscaping, sidewalks, lighting, signage, connections, limiting driveways, all of those sorts of things that we've talked about. I think if we can come up with some ideas and listen to the concerns of all the different groups, that we have the opportunity to do at least a very limited demonstration project to see how it would work and see how it would look. So, I would just pledge my own support and time and limited expertise to help out in whatever direction the group feels it needs to go. MR. CAIMANO-Do you have some plans, Bob, as far as how you envision this flow of traffic, of pedestrian traffic, across the streets, crosswalks? You've talked about it in generalities. Do you have some plans? MR. JOY-No, but I think we're willing to go back and begin to develop some overlays of these types of things. We did a real quick study, for instance, just showing where some sidewalks and trees and driveways and all that. Mike, you counted curb cuts up there, didn't you? I don't know how many there are along that strip, but if you look at that, there's some that are, in areas that are almost continuous, and what little I know about traffic engineering is, you talk about the frustration of the side condition or the edge condition, and cars that sort of come out at you from every which way, that, obviously, creates a traffic problem and a traffic hazard. Limiting that by allowing people to connect between properties, I think, woul d be helpful. Lee York pointed out, I think, that there aren't even any painted crosswalks going across the strip, here, that would at least alert cars to the fact that there are pedestrians in the road, or directing pedestrians to key points where it might be a little safer to cross. MR. CAIMANO-Lets leave the crosswal k for another topic, just for a second, but there's a marketing problem, too. I don't think it's a very difficult problem to do what you say, and to channel the traffic in certain ways, make sure that they can only go in or out certain ways and close off curb cuts. When you do that, though, I can see that some of the people are going to say, well, when you do that, you 11 "---' --..../ I limit access to my store. You could prevent left turns in certain areas. You could do a lot of things. The first thing that's going to happen to the market person is he or she is going to say, well, that's great, but you've limited access to my side, because if somebody goes in on the right hand side, going south, if somebody goes in the right hand side mall, it's French Mountain Commons, and finds it difficult to get out and go over to Dave's place, then there's going to be a marketing squawk. MR. JOY-If I can give you an example, think it's just the opposite. MRS. PULVER-Yes. MR. JOY-Picture the Grand Union and the other factory outlet, the Queensbury one, down, just below Quaker Road. MR. CAIMANO-Yes. MR. JOY-Where they just put the traffic light and realigned a couple of driveways, okay, before they were just a little bit askew and a little bit off, you know, that type of thing, not necessarily involving other lights or anything like that, but simply aligning across. I think one of the problems here is we've had, probably, 25 or 30 different projects in front of the Boards, and the Board has never had the opportunity to really come to grips with this as a shopping center or a single entity, and I think we really need to take a look at that, not necessarily to limit people's access, but maybe to improve it, and I have a feeling that, properly conceived and presented, it's really just enlightened self interest for every business along there to cooperate in a plan that makes it better for everyone. I don't think that we're necessarily talking about closing off entrances to Dave Kenny's driveway or something like that. I think maybe what we're talking about is improving. MR. MARTIN-A realignment, or. MR. JOY-Realignment a little bit or something, and then making sure that those entrances are clearly marked, and perhaps making, right now, we've got sidewalks in some area, and you get to a property line and they just stop, and then you walk across somebody's parking lot and then you maybe get another sidewalk. There are areas where there's just about two and a half feet grade difference and no ramp, no steps, no connection, just an earth bank that's now worn down. Those are real simple things. MR. MARTIN-Yes, see, and those are the types of things that I was saying, in our earlier meeting, about priorities or goals for the Town. I think some sort of a plan that would call for design considerations to be given to perspective developers or expansions in that area, along those lines, to make things more consistent, and just the whole area, as you say, be looked at as a single situation, would be a great improvement. MR. JOY-This whole thing has happened so quickly. I think if we went back to 1983, when Dexter put their log cabin up here and was about the only one up there, if we all knew what it was going to be like today, I don't think there'd be any question that somebody would say, hey, we need a plan. We need to make sure that this doesn't get out of control. Now we're trying to do it in reverse, and I think it can still be done, at least in a limited way, that will help ameliorate the situation until Ken's white knights come in on their chargers. MR. CARLSON-Yes. Could I just say one thing? I'm intrigued with the idea of the shopping center with the highway running down through the middle of it. I never really thought of it that way, and I think it really rings true, but let me just tell you what we're doing in one of the other, I think somebody mentioned there are several other areas that we're studying at the same time, the consultants supposed to look at, Corinth Road. and because that is a major entrance into the City of Glens Falls, and it's like sort of a gate way kind of a thing, we have put into that part of the RFP for that particular corridor instructions to do a visual assessment and to look at the visual environment and to come up with ways, not only just ways to improve the traffic flow, but ways to make it look better. Would that be appropriate? It seems to me that that's something that would make some sense here, too. MR. MARTIN-Yes. I think Bob's earlier comment about not just establishing hard and fast traffic engineering principles that make this a nice through traffic situation, but something that's designed, recognizing the fact that this is also a retail center in a business district, would be much more favorable. For example, the City of Glens Falls, their business district was virtually killed by the loop traffic there, and think that just got cars through and out of the City just as nice as you please, and now you've got a skeleton of a business district left, as a result. MR. CARLSON-But they can't stop with the businesses. MR. JOY-Just a quick comment, Ken. If I could picture the ideal team to do your study, in addition to the traffic consultant, it ought to have a landscape architect or somebody in the design field, and it ought to have a retailer, because I think it has to work as a retail entity, if only for the sake of Warren County's tax dollars. I mean, somebody really ought to have that perspective, and I haven't seen any other study, but this really ought to be forefront. 12 ~ '-.../ MR. CARLSON-Yes. I think it's a unique situation, in the way it's been configured. MR. KENNY-We're trying to address some of that. We have approached Niagara Mohawk about the possibility of all the new buildings along that road will have underground power. We're talking about the possibility, whether we can get it or not, we're waiting for the numbers to come back, of getting underground power there, taking down the street lights that are there, and come up with a theme of coach lamps on either side of the road. Those are things we are looking at from a business association, and from another group that is sitting in a meeting and talking about beautifying the whole area, not just this strip, the whole, hopefully, Lake George Region, at some point in time. This was one model strip we're just addressing at this point in time. Where we'll get, I think if you drive down there and you look at the, on the west side of Route 9, just the poles and the way they're done, it's just a nightmare, and I do think, and. you know, the Planning Board, if you look at any new project that's been built up there in the last three or four years, most of them have sidewalks, most of them have addressed some of the problems. It isn't something, you know, on our side of the road, I have sidewalks in front that go right to Mr. Shalit's property, that go right by the Days Inn. Then the Log Jam, which had been recently done, has sidewalks, and Dunham just put sidewalks in. The one that doesn't is the old Route 9 Mall, which, nothing's been done there for the last 10 years, so there's no way of sitting down and saying, you have to do something, but, on the one side, basically, that's the only property that is the missing link, and there could be other beautification things done along that side, and, on the other side, you've got French Mounta i n Commons. There's been, some of your concerns have been addressed. The perfect solution isn't there. It just, probably, will never be there. I mean, the beautification, we would like to see something like that. If you talk about a special lighting di stri ct to try to get a theme, a theme park done with trees and flowers and shrubs, I thi nk all the businesses along there would do whatever we could. MRS. PULVER-I very much, Dave, like the idea, as an Olympic shopper, if there was an Olympic team, I'd be captain. When I go up there, and I go up there quite frequently, if there were sidewalks all the way, and pedestrian crosswalks, I would gladly leave my car. Now, the reason I take my car is because there are so many curb cuts, and I can pull in here, pullout, get in the flow, then cut across, get in anywhere I want over there and, you know, weave back and forth across the highway. MR. KENNY-One comment on that, it's been raised a couple of times tonight. You will drive your car from parking lot to parking lot when it's slow. If you go up there when it's busy, once you find a parking space, guess what, you're not going to move. When it's easier to drive from my place to Dexter's, you will drive. When it's easier to walk. you'll walk, and when it's busy, you don't see cars, you know, then they park and stay. MRS. PULVER-I've done both, when it's busy, because it was convenient to move my car. I mean, I didn't always have a full sized parking space to park it in, but. MR. KENNY-Right, but, the majority, I mean, that's the way I view it as, I mean, I think my parking lot, only because of the fact that it's right on the road there and I have the Lake George Plaza on one side of me and the mall on this side of me and French Mountain Commons right across the street, and where a right hand turn is generally full and the people shop those three centers. I mean, I have very rarely seen somebody leave mY center and drive across the French Mountain Commons, or never seen anybody leave my center and drive to Lake George Plaza. MRS. PULVER-Well, from the shopper's point of view, I felt it was safer to get my car and maybe circle around for a parking spot than try to cross the road with all the traffic or walk up and, you know, like, one minute you're on the sidewalk and the next minute you've dropped two feet, and then you're back up. So, I do think the sidewalks and the pedestrian crosswalks would help tremendously, for moving people. MR. KENNY-I agree. I'm not disagreeing with that. I don't know how we're going to address the John Brock with a place, you know, they're coming in. They're willing to do a model project. How are you going to get the Chalet restaurant and the place next to that to, if you can get them all to come in and say yes. MRS. YORK-Well, why don't you consider forming some kind of organization up there, Dave. I mean, that's really what you should be doing. The businesses in that area should be getting together and talking. MR. KENNY-Well, the way you do it is, I think you're seeing some of it. If you went up there, this is last week, you saw the Lake George Plaza plant about 15 more trees. What you have to do is improve the properties that are willing to improve, and competition, eventually, will win out, where the guy across the street will want to be making a project as nice as my project. MR. CARTIER-What we're saying is, I agree, exactly with what Lee is saying, because I was going to say the same thing, here. What you need up there is an association, out of enlightened self interest, that works together, with the full understanding that not every individual business owner up there is going to want to be involved in an association or get involved in any of the things that the association address. Don't expect to go for 100 percent agreement up there. 13 '- --...../ MR. KENNY-We do meet with the Lake George Plaza, the Adirondack Factory Outlet Mall, French Mountain Commons, and the Log Jam Center probably once every other month. We talk on the phone every day. We do coop advertising. We try to coordinate plantings. We try to coordinate a lot of different things. Now, to get every little individual that has no interest in the Factory, those are the Factory Outlet Malls, but to get a Frank's Pizzeria or the Chalet or some of the other places totally involved in what we're doing. MR. CARTIER-You're not. Don't expect to do that. okay. What I'm saying, though, is what you just said, is that, if they begin to see that the improvements that you're instituting is increasing business, it's out of enlightened se 1 f interest that they get themselves i nvo 1 ved in thi s. Otherwi se, they're going to have things being done up there that they have no input on whatsoever. It would be crazy for them to cut themselves out of the process by saying, I don't want to get involved, and, secondly, now, if you have an association like that, then you can work with an architect who is looking at this thing in terms of an entire corridor, and you can come up with something. We're not going to get anywhere, going just piecemeal, individual owners. MRS. YORK-Could I make a suggestion? My suggestion would be, and I think other people here, I know, have probably come to the same conclusion, that we really need to form a group of people who would coordinate efforts, look at some short term solutions that could happen relatively quickly, and be the communications network to all different groups. I've just talked to Mr. Carlson. He would be happy to be involved. I certainly would offer my services. I think Mr. Joy has already offered his. Dan? Mr. Kane from the Warren County Traffic Board and the Warren County Planning Department. How about you, Pat, do you want to be involved? Miss Tatich the Director of the Warren County Planning and Economic Development Department. MR. KENNY-And I can te 11 you, Ed Moore, from French Mounta i n Commons is very interested. He's there all the time. He's willing to, you know, if you come up with a suggestion of what you'd like him to do. I know he would cooperate. MRS. YORK-Would you have him call me tomorrow, Dave, and I'll generate a list of interested people, and anybody else who would like to be involved. MR. KENNY-I think Dean Beckos and the Montcalm is extremely interested in the situation up there, would be another one that is an on-site property owner. Myself. MRS. YORK-Well, just have the couple of people that you think would be interested get in touch with me. It's not going to be a big group. MR. KENNY-I'm sure, at this time, Bob Joy will represent, also, Dexter, but, you know, I know Dexter has called me a number of times about, even before the project was on the drawing boards, what we thought we could do to influence the area, as far as making the future growth for all the businesses. So, there is some communication there. It's just, and I do think you see improvements up there. I think if you look at the four malls that are there, they have the sidewalks. They have the flowers. They have the shrubs. If you really go up there and look at the Lake George Plaza, you can't say too much wrong about that. If you look at the Martin Mall, we're making changes every day. French Mountain Commons is doing it. We have plans. I mean, it takes money. I mean, I have plans to put a lot more in the front of my property, wi th benches and with a lot more there. I I d li ke to see, my next project would be to see the lighting changed, and I'm trying to get a crabapple district where people plant crabapple trees allover the place. MR. CARTIER-I think that's something that could be handled by the group that Lee is suggesting. I think it's a very appropriate approach to this. MRS. YORK- I know it's ho 1 i day season, but Do you want to set a first meeting, here? know that Dexter is very interested in getting going. MR. CARTIER-Yes. MRS. YORK-Okay. What sounds good? Pat, day or evenings best for you? PAT TATICH MRS. TATICH-Always during the day. MRS. YORK-Always during the day. All right. MR. EATS-I just want to reinforce some of what Dave said. I think that, if this group gets together and they come up with a plan, and it might be, this is the ultimate plan that we want to do, in whatever stages. If it's the lighting, if it's sidewalks, if it's planting of whatever, we can say, this is the direction that we want to go in, and then if there's an association, we can work ourselves. We can do what we can do. We can work with who our neighbor is and whatever the case is. If we get eight out of ten who would go along with this and say, okay, this is what we're going to do. Maybe we can 14 ~ --.' only do this much this year. Maybe we can eliminate a curb cut. Next year maybe we'll put in a sidewalk, or maybe they can do that this year, to eliminate, so that people can walk through and not hike up. That would be excellent, and then if one of the properties that has a difficulty in coming to terms with this comes before the Board, because they all get sold sooner or later, then you can also hold them accountable to coming to terms with the plan as a group, so that we all buy into the responsibility of everything. I think once we all commit to a barrier free flow, it'll work for all of us, but if the design comes into place, then I think everybody can pick up and work on it, and we'd do our darndest to do everything we could do to come to that plan. MRS. YORK-What I would anticipate is, why don't each of us involved plan to respond to the group that we're affiliated with, in terms of either a verbal or written report, something like that, and plan on having a public meeting for any suggestions we come up with, at which time, this Board will act as, take the lead role once again. How would that be? MR. CARTIER-Fine. MRS. YORK-So, we would basically be under your direction, but affiliated with our own. MR. CARTIER-As far as I'm concerned, you're going to be an autonomous body. MRS. YORK-How is the week of the 16th? Pick a date, Pat. MR. CARTIER-While they're doing that, is there anybody else who would care to make a comment? MR. CARLSON-I'd just like to say one thing about this task force. What we could do, and I think it's an opportunity, is to use the study as sort of a catalyst for getting people involved. I mean, there is something going on here. It's going to effect them, and if they want to have input, now's the time to come out, and I think you could use that as a way to organize, bring people out and get them involved. So, I mean, that's not going to make my job any easier, but I think we'll have a better product, after, when we get more input and get people contributing and get the sort of spirit, from what I hear, it's going to take a lot of, what I'm hearing here from you, it's going to take a lot of cooperation. If you're going to ask business people to give up some of their access, you know, it's, basically, the life blood sort of thing, you know, to sort of raise all the votes, in a sense, it's going to take a lot of cooperation. This is the kind of thing we're always trying to promote, though, is the idea of limiting access and channeling all these things and making them work a lot better on State highways, so we don't have to spend so much money so soon, essentially, it's self interest, on the part of the State, trying to preserve our highway system. So, I just wanted to mention that. I think it might be a good way to organize a group. There's something going on, there's a study going on of highway improvements, including the pedestrian access idea and a lot of other sort of things we've been tossing around, and it is going to effect everybody that's doing business up there. MR. MARTIN-I just had a question. Is it built into your RFP that there's going to be draft copy for review and comment prior to a final being published? Is that built into the? MR. CARLSON-It's built in, yes, but the way it's built in, we could expand that. MR. MARTIN-What is the distribution going to be, of that? MR. CARLSON-We could expand the review process to include, at some point, a public forum. MR. MARTIN-Well, I was just thinking, you know, like, the Town Board, the Planning Board, and the locality, if there is a local, private merchants group forum, that they should all receive copies and have time to comment. MR. CARLSON-Comment on, say, a draft? MR. MARTIN-On a draft, so that we don't just get, here it is, the final, and these things were missing, but it's too late. MR. CARLSON-There will be some interim products that we'll be monitoring which, perhaps, we can build in. In other words, we don't want to be in that position where a consultant comes and says, well, here it is, boys, good-bye. We want to be sure they're doing exactly what we want them to do. So, we're going to be looking at interim products. The Counsel's going to be looking at. MR. MARTIN-Milestones and so on? MR. CARLSON-That's right, and I can't see any reason why we couldn't have some sort of a mid study, wherever it's appropriate. I'm not sure exactly where, probably later on in the study. We have had some input tonight, on what, the scope of it. I think we're going to change it, from some of the things we've been told about the area. MR. LAPOINT-Without reading the RFP, I would just be concerned that it's not going to shift too much emphasis on counting cars, and we'd be paying for that type of thing. 15 -.,./ '---" MR. MARTIN-Right. MR. LAPOINT-That's introduction to the obvious. We all know we've got delays in that area and the level of service, blah, blah, blah. That doesn't make that much difference. I don't want to see more of the study focused on fixing intersections, you know, the solutions to the problems, rather than the traffic studies we see in front of this Board, that come in, that are that thick, of counts. MR. MARTIN-Yes, and then there's three pages, at the very end, with very little substantive information. MR. LAPOINT-I know a little bit about traffic engineering, and I really don't think you need to spend anymore than, like, ten percent of your budget on that type of thing. Again, if 50 percent of what you're going to pay for your study is counting cars, it's just, totally out of line. MR. CARLSON-Yes, I agree with you. MR. LAPOINT-It's more like ten percent or less, you do counting cars. Ninety percent of it should be paid for looking at an isolated right hand turn lane, going south to the Northway, the suggestion for the right hand turn lane heading east on 149, solutions. I mean, we all know what the problem is, and, again, so many cars per hour just doesn't make that much difference right now, and, again, I'm worried that we're going to spend a lot of money doing that and not looking for a solution. MR. CARTIER-I agree. Would anybody else care to comment? MIKE INGERSALL MR. INGERSALL-My name's Mike Ingersall. I'm with the LA Group, and part of the Dexter team. MRS. YORK-You're going to be on the task force, are you? MR. INGERSALL-Yes, sure. Just to let you know, as part of your environmental assessment form, a traffic study has been done with counts on Labor Day weekend in 1990, and the projections are done through 1995, and you'll see an increase, but I think, from experience, and the Board will see those numbers and those charts that you always see, it's going to be sèveral years before the State will buy into the improvements you're talking about, based on their formulas. So, the type of improvements we're talking about, here, make much more sense than the long range. MR. CARTIER-You mean the short term stuff that we're talking about? MR. INGERSALL-That's right. MR. CARTIER-Okay. MR. CARLSON-You mean, before it will meet the warrants for? MR. INGERSALL-That's right. Right now you'll find that, even with the addition of the plaza that's being proposed, the intersections, now, are at a C capacity, basically 75 percent of capacity, and it's not going to be for several years until that goes over into an E or an F, and that's the only time when the State will mandate improvements. So, it's all in the document, but, again, all that information is available, and it should be part of your RFP that that's recently been updated. MR. LAPOINT-You see, we looked at a traffic study, just south of this area, where the Mount Royal thing, and we couldn't agree on what the numbers meant. I mean, we sat here and we went through piles of traffic study, and no one agreed on what they meant. I mean, everybody knows the traffic backs up when the Glen Drive In lets out, and that the traffic goes up to 2800 vehicles per hour when that happens, and, I mean, all that was just obvious, and the applicant, at that time, had paid for all that, as part of our request, and it really didn't solve anything that putting that money towards a little bit of redesign of the intersection, redesign of the access to the mall, you know, the money would have been better spent some place else. MR. CARLSON-I agree with you. All too often, traffic studies spend an awful lot of effort and time and money on proving that there's no impact. That has happened. We see an awful lot of that. That's a big part of my job is to review these things. and you really have to look at them with a, I can't think of an appropriate analogy, but you have to look very carefully. There is an awful lot of that sort of thing, but this study will not do that. We're not looking to prove that there's no problem. We're looking to solve the problems. MR. MARTIN-That's why I mentioned the need for a draft, because several eyes looking at it, or several groups, and they're going to come to a realization, if it's in fact there, that, you know, this is worthless, we need more, or, hopefully, that won't be the case, but at least it will undergo a lot of scrutiny. 16 --- ----..' MR. INGERSALL-But, I just wanted you to know, there are recent counts which should help you tremendously. MR. CARLSON-Yes. SUSAN GOETZ MRS. GOETZ-What is RFP? MRS. YORK-Request For Proposals. MRS. GOETZ-Okay. MR. CAlMANO-I was interested, because I knew this was going to happen, and I knew it was going to be like pulling teeth. I was interested in your term of "enlighted self interest", when you talked about the Million Dollar Half Mile. I know I'm going to hate myself for saying this, and, with apologies to Dexter who's putting on a nice program, if it wasn't for Dave Kenny pulling teeth every step of the way, none of the things up there would happen. So, lIenlightened self interest" is not a term to be used with what's going on up there. MR. CARTIER-Well, that's unfortunate. It really is. Does anybody else have a question or a comment? Okay. To boil this down, I think what we're looking at, in summary, is a task force that Mrs. York is going to assemble. I would remind you that, if you are interested in minutes of this meeting, and we can get some sharing of minutes among all these agencies and groups, if you would sign that on the way out. MR. BARROWE-Let me ask just one question. Short term, are we trying to get some help for this coming summer? MR. CARTIER-I have no idea. MR. BARROWE-Okay. MR. LAPOINT-I say, yes. I say that's what we should be doing. It would seem to me to be obvious. If the County owns the land, I'm wondering what the big problem is. I mean, if we spend 40 grand on a traffic study, is that 30 percent of what it would cost to put an exclusive right hand land in that County property to there, and that's one of my concerns. I think this will cost on the order of $40, $50,000 to do this, and is that a significant percentage of what one fix would be, one improvement? I think, yes, and I want to make sure we don't spend our money just studying and next year we're at the same point, where no infrastructure has been done, and we're here in 1992, evaluating this study and arguing about numbers. MR. CARTIER-I think that's going to be up to the task force. I think what they might want to do is consider coming up with a whole list of solutions, and, essentially, put them in some sort of rank, and say, okay, here are the ones we can get done immediately, lets, what are we going to do to implement those, and go from there. That would be the kind of thing that would work for this summer. Yes, ma'am? LYNN WEBSTER MRS. WEBSTER-Lynn Webster, from Warren County Planning Board. It seems to me, when this whole thing started, Dan Kane originally suggested cuts between properties with traffic lanes going, the whole nine yards. I think, if you ask Dan, you'll find he already has your solutions. MR. CARTIER-Great. MRS. WEBSTER-And they were done back in 1983, because I was on the Board then, and listened to everyone who just pledged to give whatever, reject it flatly, because they were going to lose parking places that Queensbury required. If this gentleman's planning on doing a six month study, it's not really going to help Queensbury at all for this summer. MR. CARTIER-No. I know that. We don't expect what Mr. Carlson's going to do is going to solve anything for this summer, and probably the summer after, okay, that's the long term stuff. MRS. WEBSTER-Well, it sounds like what he was planning to do, his study was done. This gentleman had the fi gures. I don't know. Maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about, because I'm not a traffi c engineer, but just being a logical human. I think we should go back to square one and look at the plans that were originally suggested. MR. CARTIER-I agree. Is Mr. Kane going to be on the task force? MRS. YORK- Yes. 17 ---- '- MR. CARTIER-Great. Okay. Anybodyelse? I guess I'd close this off with a definite rhetorical question, here, is how do we avoid this situation in the future. where we don't get into what we're doing. which is retroactive planning? That's something that we're going to have to deal with later on. MR. KENNY-How is this plan effecting their project? I guess, that hasn't been discussed here at all. MR. CARTIER-We don't know yet. MR. KENNY-I guess that's my question. Can they go forward with their project, at this time, before, even the short term solutions? I mean, are they in a position, now, to start their site plan review process, and get what they want to do? MR. CARTIER-They are already in site plan review process. MR. KENNY-Okay. That was my question, this isn't going to delay them in any way? MR. CAIMANO-No. MRS. PULVER-No. MR. MARTIN-There's no grounds for that. MR. KENNY-Right. MR. CARTIER-I don't know that all of us agree with that. They are going through the site plan review process, but there are definite traffic issues that have to be dealt with in there. MR. MARTIN-What I meant by no grounds is, there's no moratorium or anything like that that's being contemplated. MR. CARTIER-Okay. I just don't want Dexter Shoe to. all of a sudden, be staring at a blank check, here, okay. Does anybody else have a question or a comment? If not, I guess we have a direction to go. Thank you all for your input, and I think we're going to get things solved, eventually. We have a couple of other items, as a Board, to take care of, beyond this. Thank you very much. Okay. Lee, do you want to take us through this re-zoning issue? Have you got any comments? MRS. YORK-Well, I guess, what I did was just give you my copy that was sent down from the Attorney's Office, and I simply, you'll notice my scratches on the front of it, but, basically, I'm sure you have all read in the paper that they are going back to the concept of just doing the five acres, and Mr. Dusek would like some formal resolution from you stating that you have no problems with this change going from the 25 acres to the five acres. MR. CARTIER-Okay. Does the Board have any questions on this? MR. MARTIN-No. I think this is what we probably all, ultimately, wanted anyhow. MRS. YORK-Right. The site, as I understand it, is going to remain the exact site that you have, the portion of the property that we have always intended, or understood to be the senior portion. MR. CARTIER-Essentially, the south end of the 25 acres? MRS. YORK-Right, close to the school. MR. CARTIER-Okay. MRS. YORK-That's my understanding, at this point. I think, logically, that would be the most appropriate location. MR. MARTIN-I, actually, have no problem with five acres anywhere on the site. I mean, in terms of the, really. MR. CARTIER-Okay. MR. BREWER-Are they going to access the road in from that? MRS. YORK-My understanding, at this time, is that Mr. Bryan is going to give a driveway somewhere into the property, from Manor Drive, between some of those apartments there. So, there will be access provided. MR. LAPOINT-And we'll get to see that anyway, right? MRS. YORK-Yes, you will. You will see it at the subdivision phase. 18 -- - MR. CARTIER-So the bikeway, parkway strip is a thing of the past, also, I would assume. MRS. YORK-At this point in time. MR. CARTIER-Okay. Does anybody else have any questions or comments? Okay. Would anybody care to make a motion, or a recommendation, with regard to this? MOTION TO RECOMMEND APPROVAL OF THE REIJ,IEST FOR A CHANGE OF ZONE FOR THE BUCKLEY BRYAN PROPERTY RE-ZONING AS AMENDED TO REFLECT A RE-ZONING OF ONLY FIVE ACRES, Introduced by James Martin who moved for its adoption, seconded by Edward LaPoint: Duly adopted this 3rd day of December, 1991, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. LaPoint, Mrs. Pulver, Mr. Martin, Mr. Brewer, Mr. Cartier NOES: NONE ABSENT: Mr. Lauricella, Mr. Caimano MR. CARTIER-Okay. Thank you. MRS. YORK-And, also, would you make a comment that you have no problem with the Town Board still acting as Lead Agent? MR. CARTIER-Okay. MOTION TO CONSENT TO THE TOWN BOARD AS LEAD SEQRA AGENT FOR THE RE-ZONING, Introduced by Edward LaPoint who moved for its adoption, seconded by Carol Pulver: Duly adopted this 3rd day of December, 1991, by the following vote: AYES: Mrs. Pulver, Mr. Martin, Mr. Brewer, Mr. LaPoint, Mr. Cartier NOES: NONE ABSENT: Mr. Lauricella, Mr. Caimano MR. CARTIER-Last item. The incoming Town Board has requested from us two things. Number One, some sort of priorities with regard to our list of goals for the year and, secondly, some kind of recommendation regarding how Staff should be organized to expedite the Planning Board function. I don't know how much detail they want on that second one, but lets deal with the first one first. I don't think we should try to reach a consensus that we all agree on what the top ten are, in terms of what's Number One, what's Number Two, what's Number Three. Perhaps what we can do, however, is come up with an agreement of the top five, without necessarily ranking them one through five. Do you agree with that? MR. MARTIN-Yes. MR. LAPOINT-Fine. MR. CARTIER-Okay. Then maybe we can go six through ten. I don't know how far you want to take this, whether you want to go through all of these or not, but I think we at least ought to pass on our top ten, whatever that is. Let me try something. This mayor may not work. If you would give me your top five, just the number, and then later on, I'll ask you for your six through ten, just the numbers, without necessarily ranking them six through ten, or one through five. MRS. PULVER-I have a couple of things I want to say, as I look over this list. I look at this list, and I think all these items need some attention from somebody. I'm not sure it needs to be the Planning Board. MR. CARTIER-Agreed. MRS. PULVER-My mind says there should be a planning task force to handle items like Number One, Number Two, Number Three, Number Four I wasn't sure whether I wanted to put it under Planning or if it should be a Town Board priority. I have the Town Board as instituting a Town wide soil study. That is something that the Planning Board will recommend to the Town Board, but the Town Board has to give the direction to do it, because there are costs involved. Then I also thought there should be some sort of a, maybe, citizens board, which would handle, like, Item 19. I have 14. What I'm saying is that this list, I don't think, is all for the Planning Board. MR. CARTIER-Correct. It wasn't intended to be, and I think you're one step ahead of us. I think all we're doing right now is establishing what we would like to see get accomplished in the next year. MR. LAPOINT-Right. 19 '- '-/ MR. CARTIER-And from that point, we'll sit down and figure out who's got to do what, because you're absolutely right. A lot of these things are Town Board functions. MRS. PULVER-Okay. I'll give you my top five. Number Six, Town wide soil study. I see, Affordable Housing Overlay, Numbèr Two, I see Number Nine, Number Nineteen, and Number Five. MR. CARTIER-I'll come back to you for your second top five, two, five, six, nine, and nineteen, okay. MR. LAPOINT-I'll go next. Okay. There's just one out of this entire group that I do have a problem with, and that's Number One. I don't think we have a problem with the process, the way it goes. I think we may be knee jerking to some complaints out there that are really not valid. I think our entire process here is very good. We expedite things, and I don't want to see us fixing something that doesn't need to be fixed. So, the only the one of this whole group that I object to is Number One. MRS. PULVER-Okay, but Number One is, I looked at Number One and said that that means the application, okay, not the process. MR. CARTIER-One or Three, because Three deals with the application. MRS. PULVER-I see. All right. MR. LAPOINT-I don't mind modifying the application, but I still think, and I may disagree with some of you on this, I'd still like to see as much up front engineering as I possibly can, and that's the only thing. I don't want applicants coming in with eight and a half by eleven, true sketches for us. I'd like to see the engineering done up front, and I think it saves everybody in the long run. So, Number One is the only one I have real problems with. Here are my top five: 2, 5, 9, 12, and 18. MR. CARTIER-Okay. Jim? MR. MARTIN-Lets see. I've got 9, 2, 17, 3, and 5. MR. CARTIER-Okay. Tim? MR. BREWER-2, 5, 9, 17, and 19. MR. CARTIER-Okay. Let me tell you what we've got here. Everybody has 2 on their list. Everybody has 9 on their list. Four out of five have Number 5 on the list. Okay. Then it falls apart. MR. LAPOINT-Just a suggestion so it doesn't fall apart, is that everyone of our top five makes the top ten, even if it's an individual. MR. CARTIER-Sure. No problem. MR. LAPOINT-Lets do that. So, how many does that give us? Add that up, and then each of, we have to come up with our next, say, if that makes seven or eight, then each of us come up with two more. MR. CARTIER-Okay. Seventeen shows up on, I'm not even looking at those, I'm looking just at Number Seventeen shows up on, one, two, three of us. Nineteen shows up for two of us. Four is a loner. Twelve is a loner. Three is a loner. Six is a loner, and eighteen is a loner. MR. LAPOINT-Okay. That makes ten right there. That makes five that we all agree on, or more than one agrees on, and then five that are loners, so that makes ten, so my idea's no good. MR. BREWER-Lets try the second five. MR. CARTIER-Okay. Who's got them? MR. MARTIN-Okay. I'm all ready with the second five. 19, 11, 14. MRS. PULVER-Wait a minute. We settled 11. MR. BREWER-Yes, we did. MRS. PULVER-It's out. MR. CARTIER-No, it isn't. MR. BREWER-Well, we didn't really settle it. MR. LAPOINT-No, we didn't really. MR. BREWER-We talked about it. 20 ---,,' -- MR. CARTIER-Wait a minute. True. MRS. PULVER-That's what your new Supervisor said. MR. BREWER-Well, did he say it after I left? MRS. PULVER-Yes. We had a conversation, and he said. that settles it. MR. MARTIN-The thing that brought it back in the forefront of my mind is the discussion we just had a few minutes ago. MRS. PULVER-But I think that can just be done, part of the planning, you know, like, you will have sidewalks from now on, and you will have underground lights and, you know, what's ever adopted will be adopted. MR. MARTIN-All right. MR. CARTIER-Well, do you want to pull it out of your top ten, or what do you want to do? MR. MARTIN-I'll leave it for now. 14, 1, and 10. MR. CARTIER-Okay. Who else. MR. BREWER-I, 3, 4, 12, and 10. MR. CARTIER-Okay. Ed, or Carol? MR. LAPOINT.4. 14, 17, 19, and 10. MR. CARTIER-Okay. Carol? MRS. PULVER-Did I give you 2, 5, 6, 1, and 9, as my first five? MR. CARTIER-You gave me 2, 5, 6, 9, and 19. MRS. PULVER-9 and 19. Okay. I think we've hit mine. I think mine have been hit by somebody, with my numbers. MR. CARTIER-Okay. Lets see, here. 1 shows up in three places. 3 shows up in two places. 10 shows up in four places. 4 shows up in a couple of places. This is kind of falling apart, with regard to, well, wait a minute, 19 shows up in a lot of places. 14 shows up in a lot of places. All right. Let me try this with you. 2,5,9,19, yes. Okay. Here's a definite top five, guys, okay. These five items showed up in everybody's list. All right. 2, 5, 9, 17, and 19. Are you willing to make that the top five? MR. MARTIN-That's fine with me. MR. CARTIER-Okay? All right? Of the next six through ten. MR. MARTIN-I think if we can get five things done in the next six months, then we can reevaluate. MR. CARTIER-Well, I'll tell you one thing, Number Two is done. That's a resolution by the Town Board. That package is done. MR. MARTIN-Okay. MR. BREWER-It is done? MR. CARTIER-That is done. That Overlay Zone is done. It has been done since last January, okay. It's just been in the pipeline and stopped. MR. MARTIN-Or maybe then you go into a six or seven, but I think, beyond that, you're starting to get a little fuzzy. MR. BREWER- Yes. MRS. PULVER-Well, like I say, going back to these things, I broke it down to where there are certain things the Town Board, like, Number Two. The Town Board is the only one, at this point, that can handle the Affordable Housing Overlay Zone. So, they just need for us to say, do it, and then, after the first of the year, that Town Board should just get going at it. Number Four, Traffic Management Plan. 21 '-' >__r MR. MARTIN-See, I didn't say that one, because I thought, based on what I'm hearing here, that. MRS. PULVER-Exactly, but if there is to be one, the Town Board is going to have to allocate the funds. If we feel one on this list, we need to ask them to allocate the funds, so that this will be here. MR. MARTIN-Well, yes, that's why I didn't even put it on there, because I got the impression the State was paying for the cost of the study. So that, the Town Board is just going to defer to that anyhow. If they can have a chance to save money, they will. MRS. PULVER-But I looked at the list and broke it down to, like, okay, this is what you guys have, this is what we're going to do, and then I'll appoint a Board and then we'll get them to do these things, here. We could get the whole list done. MR. CARTIER-Eventually, we will. MRS. PULVER-I mean, it could, because a lot of these, say, a Town wide soil study, can't be done until the Town Board says, now, we have to do it. MR. CARTIER-I agree. MRS. PULVER-So, it has to go to them first. We can't do that. MR. CARTIER-Okay. Let me get some direction from you, here. What I'll do, I'll tell you what. I'll put a draft letter together to the Town Board, the incoming Town Board, with these top five as listed. as our top five. I'll go back through this other set of numbers and come up with a consensus of the second top five, okay, for a draft. Now, the only other thing we want to get into that, also, has to do with the incoming Town Board's request that we make a recommendation regarding how Town Staff should be organized to expedite the Planning Board function. I don't know if they're referring to the zoning. MR. BREWER-Expedite what? MR. MARTIN-I think it's as expedited as it can get. MRS. PULVER-Yes. MR. MARTIN-Are they understanding that we're dealing with mandated time frames, here, that? MR. CARTIER-I think what they're referring to, can we go into Executive Session for about five minutes? Can I entertain a motion for a quick Executive Session? MOTION TO 60 INTO EXECUTIVE SESSION TO DISCUSS A PERSONNEL ~TTER, Introduced by Carol Pulver who moved for its adoption, seconded by James Martin: Duly adopted this 3rd day of December, 1991, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Martin, Mr. Brewer, Mr. LaPoint, Mrs. Pulver, Mr. Cartier NOES: NONE ABSENT: Mr. Lauricella, Mr. Caimano MOTION TO COlE OUT OF EXECUTIVE SESSION, Introduced by Carol Pulver who moved for its adoption, seconded by James Martin: Duly adopted this 3rd day of December, 1991, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Brewer, Mr. LaPoint, Mrs. Pulver, Mr. Martin, Mr. Cartier NOES: NONE ABSENT: Mr. Lauricella, Mr. Caimano On motion meeting was adjourned. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED, Peter Cartier, Chairman 22