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1992-03-19 SP ',-- -- ./ ~EENSIIJRY PLANNING BOARD IEETING SPECIAL WORKSHOP MEETING MARCH 19TH, 1992 INDEX Site Plan No. 3-92 Francis and Carolyn Martindale 1. THESE ARE NOT OFFICIALLY ADOPTED MINUTES AND ARE SUBJECT TO BOARD AND STAFF REVISIONS. REVISIONS WILL APPEAR ON THE FOLLOWING MONTHS MINUTES (IF ANY) AND WILL STATE SUCH APPROVAL OF SAID MINUTES. --- - ~EENSIIJRY PLANNING BOARD MEETING SPECIAL WORKSHOP MEETING MARCH 19TH, 1992 7:00 P.M. MEMBERS PRESENT JAMES MARTIN, CHAIRMAN PETER CARTIER TI MOTHY BREWER CORINNE TARANA EDWARD LAPOINT MEMBERS ABSENT CAROL PULVER, SECRETARY JAMES LAURICELLA SENIOR PLANNER- LEE YORK TOWN ATTORNEY-PAUL DUSEK ZONING ADMINISTRATOR-PAT CRAYFORD STENOGRAPHER-MARIA GAGLIARDI OLD BUSINESS: SITE PLAN NO. 3-92 TYPE: UNLISTED RR-3A FRANCIS AND CAROLYN MRTINDALE OWNER: SAlE AS ABOVE WEST SIDE OF RooTE 149, ACROSS FROM MARTINDALE ROAD, EAST 500± FT. CAROLYN MARTINDALE, PRESENT (7:00 p.m.) MR. MARTIN-This is much more informal. It is Workshop, and especially given the fact this is something that we're seeing as a potential re-zoning, I would gather, and it's not even officially been before the Town Board. I, personally, appreciate that. I think that's good that we see that in advance, as well, and the earlier the better. I always think that helps. So, it's much more informal, open exchanges. So, since you're the only one on, we'll see what you've got. MRS. MARTINDALE-Okay. I'll unveil it. This is what we hope to have as a future pancake house on 149. The bakery, possibly a produce center, a gift shop, a meat and cheese shop, and a sugarhouse. We wanted to have, in the back portion, here, like a petting area, so that, we want to give people that come to this site a variety of things to do. If the pancake house takes over, like we think it will, if it goes over in the area as well as we think it will, then we've got a variety of things to do. If we're fully seated, which the pancake house is designed to seat 80 people, then it would have other activities to do and enjoy and appreciate. We've designed a special area, over here, for the handicapped, giving them a separate entrance on this part, so that they can go in there without being part of the main traffic area, because we know that they need special attention, and the way we have it here, we could have whatever you would recommend. We have an ingress/egress. One area to come in, one area to go out, or however you would like it. MR. MARTIN-And I assume that requires removal of the existing building? Does that? MRS. MARTINDALE-We've showed that penciled in there. We think that is way to close to the road, but we need to use that, temporarily, until we get. ROBERT MARTINDALE MR. MARTINDALE-What we might want to do is, if we can get the, at least get maybe the sugarhouse up, okay, then we don't have to produce the syrup in here, okay. What we'd like to do is take some of the timbers from this barn and use them over here, just because they're such old timbers and you want to see that rustic look, where we can't tear this down until we're actually in this phase, because we still want to use this barn until we get to this, because we don't want to have to build another structure to store things until we are all set here, and plus then we want to use, say the outside barn went inside, okay, to give it a rustic appearance inside, and just give it a homey type atmosphere. MRS. MARTINDALE-Very rural. MR. MARTINDALE-Families can go in there and feel comfortable, rather than seeing just plaster or something like that. MRS. MARTINDALE-And I love the covered bridge. I think it gives it more of a rural character, if we kind of had a little walk way in here with a covered bridge. 1 -- --- MR. MARTINDALE-With windows so people can look and see the brook going down here, and might be able to see the pond. You never know what you might see here. We have deer running around back here. You probably have deer in your back yard. A lot of people coming from New Jersey, more metropolitan areas, they don't get to see stuff like this. So, if they come in here, they get a taste of Vermont, but only in New York State, where we like to have them in our communities, of course, spending their dollars, too. MRS. MARTINDALE-And as I was trying to say, the covered bridge, here, effect, would also give a walk way for handicapped or elderly people, if they don't want to be out here, inclement weather or whatever. It gives them a nice easy access to these other buildings. MR. LAPOINT-These are covered sidewalks, right, not bridges? MRS. MARTINDALE-Well, it has the roof on it. MR. MARTINDALE-It's not going to be suspended, no. We're just trying to give that appearance. MRS. MARTINDALE-The early American, rural appearance, is what we want it to be. MR. MARTINDALE-But it'll be on concrete forms, with footings, everything up to building codes, with windows so people can see. There probably will be some exits out of here, just in case, you know, say something does happen. They can get out of there if they have to. MR. MARTIN-I see the scale's 1 to 20. So, you're talking about something, how many square feet? MRS. MARTINDALE-This was 40 by 72, with the pancake house, to seat 80 people. MR. MARTINDALE-But this, right now, is just a conceptual drawing. We're trying to get the idea, what we want. MR. MARTIN-This is different from what I say, the day of the Scudder's.., and this has even changed again. MR. MARTINDALE-And it might even change some more. It's not carved in stone, but this is going to be kind of what we want, this effect, so people don't have to jump around. They can walk one place or the other. As far as square footage, at this point, we figured about 40 by 72, but when this all comes into effect, if we can't spend the money on 40 by 72, we might go a little smaller, okay. So, like we said, it's a conceptual drawing, but we want to make it, what you as planners, to make it safe, to make it work. MRS. MARTINDALE-We welcome any suggestions for parking or whatever we might need. We want to keep it open. MR. MARTINDALE-Greenhouses might go in there. That's why we have future expansion. We're not going to put an apartment house or anything like that, because we want to keep it this character so people will come back and want to come back and not see all this other baloney that they can see any place. MRS. MARTINDALE-And another thing is, just a short distance up the road you have, commercialized, but we feel that this is a good entrance to the Town of Queensbury. representation of what we want in the Town of Queensbury. it's more It's a good MR. MARTINDALE-And any other place you try to come into the Town of Queensbury, what do you see? Businesses, like the Half Mile there. That's all you see, where this gives you a nice rural atmosphere coming into Town. It's not going to be cement blocks up through. It's going to be nice looking, country looking. MR. MARTIN-Well, what's everybody? I know we're very early on, here, in the process. MR. BREWER-The only thing that sticks out, to me, is, I don't know about the parking. Is that sufficient? MRS. MARTINDALE-Yes. Scudder said it was. They went according to your Zoning, and we have more parking over there if we need it. MR. MARTINDALE-If we can seat 80 people, the majority of people that come in, it's going to be a family style thing. They're going to have three to four people probably. MRS. MARTINDALE-I'd like to say another thing, too. and they say it is, I don't want any tractor trailers. I have suggested to the Scudders, if it's 1 ega 1 , I want to keep it oriented to the families. MR. BREWER-The only reason I asked that was because you said you can seat 80 people, here, and then I don't know how big this is, if these are all these shops. 2 "- FRANCIS MARTINDALE MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-We're looking for input, to see how the Board feels about it. MR. BREWER-I think it's a great idea. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-And if the Code says you've got to do this, then we do it. We're not out to cut corners. This is our life savings. MR. MARTIN-Well, from the standpoint of all the issues you're facing now, with the existing situation, the re-zoning is the way to handle it. I mean, there's the aspect of, the typical decision with re-zoning is, are you going to allow that new zone in that particular area. That's the basic, philosophical question. Once you get beyond that and get the new zone, then this is all fine and it's a matter of you meeting the ingress and egress requirements, driveway cuts, parking and the other, it takes away a lot of the issue you're faced with, now, in this situation. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-We've spent many hours with Pat and Lee. MRS. MARTINDALE-And Dave. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-And I guess we've got a problem trying to figure out what we're going to zone it as. MRS. YORK-I remember discussing Recreation Commercial, at one time. MRS. MARTINDALE-You said both, Recreational Commercial and Commercial Recreational. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-Here's an idea we're trying. We're going to give it to you people. MRS. MARTINDALE-If you like it and work with us, we want to work with you. In fact, we mentioned tot the Scudders. MR. ROBERT MARTINDALE-We've got 29 acres, there, and plus we have 14 acres behind that, and if you include my property, our property, it's three more acres. MRS. MARTINDALE-Even as far as the piping goes, we want cast iron. We don't want cheap plastic or anything like that. We want to do it right to begin with. MR. LAPOINT-Are you tal king about.. it would be 28 or 29? MRS. MARTINDALE-29.9 acres, and leaving the other out of it. Right. MR. LAPOINT-Which is land locked in the back? MRS. MARTINDALE-No. MR. LAPOINT-It's a long road? MRS. MARTINDALE-No. It has good road frontage on that as well. MR. ROBERT MARTINDALE-But the other property, we have a drawing of the whole survey. To get to the other property, there is another parcel on the other side of me. MR. LAPOINT-One particular parcel? MR. ROBERT MARTINDALE-Right. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-But they adjoin. MR. ROBERT MARTINDALE-They're all continuous. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-And if we have to, we can use it. MR. LAPOINT-You're only interested in? MRS. MARTINDALE-This one parcel, right. We want to keep everything in a cluster in the front, and retain the rural character in the back. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-The other part is tapped with Maples. MR. ROBERT MARTINDALE-Right. This part back in here is all Maple trees. 3 -- MR. LAPOINT-And you said, how many of those taps do you have? MR. ROBERT MARTINDALE-We had 300 up there. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-We have 300 out now. MR. ROBERT MARTINDALE-We've had other matters to contend with, I'm not going to get into at this point in time. MR. CARTIER-I guess, I'm going to sound like I'm raining on your parade and I don't mean to sound that way. All I want to do is point out to you some of the things you're going to have to deal with at the re-zoning issue, because this is a great design. I love this, and this is Step Two, I think, as Jim said. I think when the Town looks at a re-zoning, I understand you're coming in with a very site specific plan, but when a Town looks at a re-zoning, what they have to do, and lets say you're going to go Recreational Commercial zoning, what we have to do is look at not just the site specific plan that's being presented, but we also have to take into consideration all of the other things listed in that zone, because we cannot say, yes, we're going to re-zone this Recreation Commercial but this is the only thing that can be put in that zone. We have to consider the other things that are allowed. So, that's something you're going to have to deal with when you go through the re-zoning situation. You're going to have to respond to that somehow. I think, and Paul correct me if I'm wrong, here, too, you may have an issue of spot zoning to deal with. So, that's something that you might have to address. Somewhere along the line you may want to get a definition of spot zoning, to deal with what you have not already. MR. DUSEK-If I could just comment on that, Pete, and that is that, any time you're re-zoning a small parcel, obviously, that's one of the questions that always arises, is that spot zoning. Just because a parcel is small doesn't mean that it is, and I should mention, also, spot zoning, when we use that term, it's basically illegal. If you hear that terminology used, that's what the courts have said you can't do, and usually, though, what the courts look at is a situation where a small parcel is zoned strictly for the benefit of the people that own that parcel. In other words, there's no community gain out of it. It's not consistent with the Master Plan in the area, or for that area of Town, and basically not consistent with the Town's comprehensive planning. Some instances, like, if you're right next to a commercial area, like, say this is commercial line, commercial's here, and you re-zone a small area like this commercial, it's consistent with the overall commercial area right next door to it, and usually you get away from the spot zoning arguments. In other instances, if you're building like a senior citizens complex or something, that's a community need that it's geared to. Yes, it benefits the owner, but the community has a strong desire to support that type, and so it may modify which we did, in fact, up on Aviation Road. If you take, though, like you're in a residential, and you take a small part of that residential, right in the center, and zone it retail, you've got to have a good reason for doing that. It's got to be consistent with, like I say, the Master Plan or the actual justifications, and I think that's what Pete's leading to, that you at least have to take a look at that and it's my understanding, too, I just might mention that I thought Betty Monahan was looking at an entire re-zoning anyway, in that area, and I know there's some concerns about the current zones. There's nothing to say, under the law, of course, that you can't create a new zone that may be more suitable for that area of Town. MR. MARTIN-Well, as I read this, here, I don't think this Commercial Residential zone sounds far from what they're trying to accomplish, here. MRS. YORK-No, Recreation Commercial. MRS. MARTINDALE-Either one. At one point, you told us CR, and then you told us RC. MRS. YORK-RC, Recreation Commercial. See. Recreation Commercial, Jim, has amusement centers, public meeting areas, golf courses, taverns, refreshments, camp sites, riding academies, ski center, restaurant. So, it encompasses already some of the uses, here. MR. MARTIN-Yes. Well, in these types of issues, to try and link any conformance with the Master Plan, see, the purpose, under Recreation Commercial zone, RC zones are areas within Queensbury where the Town wishes to isolate, protect, and encourage expansion of recreation industry. Large scale projects will be encouraged to... range planned use development plans defining uses, intensities, patterns, etc. Residential uses are considered compatible with RC zone. That maybe, but I don't see a lot of so called recreational, here. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-That was skipped. MR. MARTIN-All right, well, just let me get on with it. The purpose for a Commercial Residential, Commercial Residential zones are those areas of Queensbury which are transitioning from Residential to Highway Commercial uses on narrow arterial roads. Now, I see this, definitely, as a, if you're going to say, transition, this is a transition, it's a beginning, potentially. The purpose of this zone is to allow for this transition in a manner which permits a widening of the arterial route, which is certainly necessary along areas of 149, and I understand it may be even under schedule with DOT. 4 ',-- -- MR. ROBERT MARTINDALE-They're going to re-pave the road this year. I know that. MR. MARTIN-Widening of the arterial road, encourage safe traffic patterns, which this design would improve on, an aesthetically pleasing environment, which they're certainly making an effort to do, and safe pedestrian circulation, which they're certainly making an effort to do, and then if you look under Site Plan Review Uses, Type II, you have restaurant and retail business. MR. ROBERT MARTINDALE-As far as spot zoning, what you're saying, too, there is a camp ground not that far away, and up the road a little bit there is French Mountain Log Homes, which is right on 149. MR. MARTIN-Yes. That whole corner is commercial. MR. ROBERT MARTINDALE-It's all commercial. So, it's not like this is going to be stuck right in the middle of a residential area, because there are, on either side of us, within a quarter of a mile, there is something commercial. MR. DUSEK-I think, though, if the community were to tackle that, they'd probably want to look, though, like say if you property's here, and the residential's down here, and there's a residential in the middle, they're probably going to want to take a look at whether they're going to justify either the same thing all the way along or a transition from here to there, to see if that makes sense, and I think that's what Jim's already starting to do. He's looking through the Ordinance and saying, these, although this is not the Master Plan in the zoning. MR. MARTIN-This is based in the Master Plan. MR. DUSEK-Right, and those are the comments from that. He was looking for that connect. So, depending upon how this is structured, you may get by that problem. MRS. MARTINDALE-Could I interject something right here. This is what, when Pat and Dave Hatin, when we were discussing that earlier this year, they said, go ahead and get your animals on the site, because if you come into a problem, if they re-zone it and you can't do it, and have that there. Have it already established. So, this is why we labeled it as such, just to try and get it in there. MR. ROBERT MARTINDALE-And the petting would be an amusement, so I guess this is what they're saying, the Zoning Board. So, that's why we want to have it in there. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-Also, it would be very educational. We're taking a lot of time and a lot of stress to make the maple industry very predominant. We're losing it. It's not something that's going to last forever because there's too much work to it. We have a hard time keeping people interested in it. So, there will be an educational aspect of the syrup being made, but also going through the woods. We're not going to do this overnight. MR. MARTIN-That was one of my other questions. There's obviously a phased approach to this. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-Jim, it's going to all depend upon how much money I have to spend to get through. MRS. MARTINDALE-All the planning and engineering, and we're hoping you'll work with us. We want to work with you. We want to do it right, and we welcome any input. If you think we're going about it wrong, then please tell us. MR. ROBERT MARTINDALE-The other thing about educational, my son is two and a half, going on three, and we just registered him for nursery school, and I have talked to the people there, and they are very interested in coming and seeing animals, and seeing how maple syrup is produced. So, it is educational, too. There's a lot of kids, they don't get to see anything like that. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-Also another thing, here. This land has been in my family for five generations, and before. My ancestors came here with Abraham Wing. We still have Quaker Bonnets in the family that came with them. This is a tribute to my grandfather as much as anybody, and we have a lot of antique, a lot of old equipment. We want it to be something that people will go through Queensbury and say, hey, this is a neat little thing. MRS. MARTINDALE-It's unique. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-I don't want it shoddy, and because we don't want it shoddy, we're going to have to do it in steps, but I'm not trying to hide anything, and we're honest and we have a lot of integrity and, help. MRS. MARTINDALE-Another thing we didn't mention, we did say we wanted to keep all the woods back here, natural as they are right now, but we hope to have walk trails through the sugarbush where they can see how the pipe line is run, and have, possibly, picnic tables, if people want to come here, if we have the meat shop, if they want to make a sandwich or whatever. They can go out there and sit in 5 -- ----' the woods and see deer or turkey or whatever. It's going to be Recreational. It's going to be fun, something designed for the whole family. We don't want, in a restaurant or anything like that, we wouldn't want to sell alcoholic beverages or anything like that. We want to keep fun and family oriented. MRS. YORK-Is the roadway along there depicted as it is, or is this just? MR. ROBERT MARTINDALE-That is an actual topo map, okay. These are the contours of the property. MRS. YORK-Because it just seems to me, doesn't it curve a little in there? MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-We're way above the curve. MR. ROBERT MARTINDALE-We're way above the curve. It's pretty much straight. You're on a downhill grade right here. It's not like you're bending right here. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-The curve is way down here by that first building. MR. MARTIN-There is a fairly straight portion of the road there, right in that area. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-It's on the safest part of the road I can get it on. MR. CARTIER-We keep.. from site plan to zoning issues, here, and 1'm going to tell you, the only thing that occurs to me, here, in terms of the site plan, is that you want to plan for a four lane road out there. MRS. MARTINDALE-It has been. This is 75 feet back from the road. MR. MARTIN-Well, you've got plenty of room to do it in. This is something you'll want to take up with you're designer. You want to be able to accommodate a road wide enough. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-These buildings are back a long ways. These buildings are much further back than what your Code is asking for, and we've put it out here for that. MR. CARTIER-Well, what I'm saying is that this is going to be four lane, to keep it looking decent, you want to have some green space, here. MR. ROBERT MARTINDALE-Well, we don't know that they're going to do that, do we? MR. CARTIER-What? MR. ROBERT MARTINDALE-Widen the road. MR. CARTIER-This is what you have to plan for. This is why we've gotten all screwed up on the Million Dollar Half Mile, here. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-Unless this Town knows something more than the Town of Fort Ann does, the State has no intentions, and this is as of November of 1989, has no intentions of doing anything except straightening, and a few areas, resurfacing and maintaining that road for the next 10 years. MR. CARTIER-What happens 10 years from now? MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-Well, you and I may not even be around in 10 years. MR. CARTIER-But the building will be. Just to go back to the zoning thing for a minute, looking at these two, I know when we rewrote these zones, the Commercial Residential zone was primarily for out the Corinth Road and coming in from Dix Avenue, main street, Dix Avenue. Those zones with really high density stuff, and in thinking about the property out there, it seems to me, given the fact that we're talking about tourist traffic, here, it seems to me that the Recreation Commercial seems to be more appropriate, to me, anyway, than Commercial Residential zones. MRS. YORK-Well, I'm really hoping that, in the future the Planning Board can have the opportunity to have worked on this corridor. MR. CARTIER-Where is that? MRS. YORK-Well, before John Goralski left, we went out and did some survey work and have the basics for it, a jumping off point, so to speak, and from here on it's just a philosophical discussion, and coming up with what works. MR. MARTIN-As someone who lives on that road, I'd like to see that type of thing, it was to go to a commercial use, I would like to see this low intense, large lot area encouraged, because I think the commercial uses you do have there are along those lines. 6 --- -- MRS. YORK-Right, to maintain the rural character. MR. MARTIN-Like, the trailer parks are certainly, as a rule, nature, I mean, although they're vast, from the character they present, they're well hidden and retain a lot of the foliage and woods and so on, and open space, and I think those are the types of things you want to hit on, if you were to do a creation of a new zone or a planned unit development area for this corridor, you do want to definitely encourage that, because it is, you're not going to want to do something where you get to the intensity that you're going to force an adjustment to the speed limit there or something like that. You don't want to create a lot of areas where people are made to slow down to 30 miles an hour because you've got all this intense development that has occurred, because it is a major arterial, and..for this whole region. MRS. YORK-Well, do you see that as something the Planning Board could work on? MR. CARTIER-The corridor study? MRS. YORK-Yes. MR. MARTIN-Sure. MRS. YORK-I know you've got a lot of extra meetings already scheduled, but I think it's something. This corridor, we know, is changing, now that we've had request for variances, last year, a substantial number. MR. CARTIER-Lets get ahead of the number. Lets not get another Million Dollar Seven Miles. MRS. YORK-Right. MR. MARTIN-That's what I'm saying, you know, lets, from the outset, all right, we acknowledge that there's going to be a change, here, at least along areas of it, and what are you going to do with it? MRS. YORK-Maybe, on your next site visit, you can just...down the road. MR. MARTIN-Because, I'll tell you, the potential is there. I think it's just that we're in a result of a weak economy and a weak market. There has been signs on there for years, now, 150 acres for sale, large tracts of land. MR. CARTIER-That's outside the blue line. MR. MARTIN-This is. MR. CARTIER-I'm just wondering, how much of 149, is all of 149 outside of the line? MRS. YORK-No. MR. MARTIN-It crosses right after my house, as a matter of fact, where my property line is. MR. CARTIER-East of you? MR. MARTIN-Yes. MR. CARTIER-Okay. MR. MARTIN-I think it's right around the Bay Road intersection, somewhere in there. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-No. It's right there. Right in front of Mildred Lackey's old house, and it runs right straight across to Ridge Road, and right straight through to Kingsbury, and then it comes right back up. MR. CARTIER-I'm sort of stepping back and taking an aerial view of the Town, here. I'm trying to think of where in the Town you're going to expand recreational use. If it's a tourist driven economy, where are you going to expand recreational, and this may be inappropriate. MR. MARTIN-Yes. The other thing you have to acknowledge is that there's a high traffic count on this road. It's got to be in the 1,000's. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-Seven hundred and twenty cars an hour, as of 1989. MR. MARTIN-So, I mean, that's quickly losing it's residential flavor, with that kind of traffic count. 7 -"-..'"' MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-My forethought is, the State has been screaming and hollering and everybody says they're going to put a four lane road through. When they put a four lane road through, it will not be on 149. It will be north, or it may not even come that way. It may come through Route 4 up the wood creek area, the canal area, that situation. Whatever any Town does, believe me, in Fort Ann, we're fighting, and we don't want a four lane road through. If you put a four lane road through, you're going to kill your economy, especially your tourist. MR. CARTIER-That's never stopped the State before. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-No, it hasn't, but it has deterred that spur connection from Vermont to the Northway for many many years, to the tune that I understand we are paying the State of Vermont a sizeable amount of money to keep it from not being..the State of New York is, right now, but we've got to have something to bring the people back to 149, or back to Queensbury, if that four lane road does occur, and if that four lane road occurs, there'll be a lot of residential houses on 149 that won 't be there, and you'll lose the whole residential, rural, aspect. MR. CARTIER-Yes, okay, but basically all I'm suggesting is that, given everything that you have said, it's very relatively easy to plan for, that some day,... the four lane. (TAPE TURNED) MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-..somewhat of a seasonal creek. Now, this little spot, here, does trickle year round, this that comes here dries up in the summer time, but in order to get distances for the proper stormwater runoff that we're going to have, our plumbing, sewage. We have to stay out here a little ways, and he actually had it back further, and I said, no, we've got to push it out this way, but still have room, here, for just the situation that you're talking about, and I have no problem with that, but also in the event that we have to, that we still have some available space, without going across this creek. Now, there's a lot of room back here, yet, that we'd like to keep green, without being forced to come back into here for parking area, as a result of something occurring out here. MR. CARTIER-Well, the only other thing that would occur to me, too, here, is that in terms of this future expansion, that when you plan your parking up here, you plan entry into this future expansion, without having to put another curb cut. MR. ROBERT MARTINDALE-We don't want to pay another $5, $600 for a curb cut. MR. CARTIER-..more curb cuts in the Million Dollar Half Mile. MRS. MARTINDALE-We don't like that either. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-We probably.. that Million Dollar Mile more than anybody on this road, because I go through there at least three times, four times a day. This area, here, is a little bit deceptive, from the fact that there's not a lot of usable land, in order to be back safely from here, and you see this well? This well was put in way before this zoning rule changed, and when zoning was changed, before it was changed, I went to Betty Monahan with this same concept and said, Betty, when you change it, please keep in mind, we're farmers, and this is what we do. Well, my answer was, Fran, put it in writing. Fran was haying and cutting corn and everything else. We didn't get it in writing. So, it went by, but that well was drilled, when did Floyd put his house up? When you're uncle put his house up. MR. MARTIN-It was in the Fifties, wasn't it? MR. ROBERT MARTINDALE-No, the other. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-But, anyway, this well was put in right here, and now it's going to haunt me, because where this well is, in order to meet all the specifications that we have to work around, I can't put too many buildings in there. MR. CARTIER-You're talking about maintaining the well. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-I'm talking about, if you use that well, which, it's pretty near 500 hundred feet down. I can't afford not to. We're limited to the amount of buildings we can put here. We're limited as to how close we can get the cars. So, you have a pretty good area that would be kept open. MR. MARTIN-The only other thing I would encourage, too, if this was, in fact, the design. I'm not saying it is, but if it ultimately was or something similar to this, if any driveway that close to the existing barn is a site plan issue, that barn, that close is going to make getting in and out of that nearest driveway tough. I would almost, as a condition, to raise the barn right away. If you want to keep the wood from it, store it somewhere, but get that down. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-I don't want to start a family problem, Jim, but you come out that driveway right there, and it's safer than coming out of your driveway at your house. 8 - -- MR. MARTIN-Well, my driveway is just as bad, coming from the westerly traffic. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-Wait a minute, now. There's no banks, here. This is completely level, and at this point, a car can be out here and see very clearly down and up, both ways in the road. MR. CARTIER-Well, 55 miles an hour, what's the site distances you have to have? MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-DOT has looked at this. MRS. YORK-I was going to say 700. MR. ROBERT MARTINDALE-Now, is that for Commercial or is that for Residential? MR. LAPOINT-That is just traffic. MR. ROBERT MARTINDALE-So, even on your property, you don't have 700 feet site distance. MR. MARTIN-No. They've been very lenient on there for a lot of people. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-Please, lets also be just as lenient. Lets work with a native, for once. MR. ROBERT MARTINDALE-And there is plans for taking the barn down. MR. CARTIER-If you've got 700 feet site distance already, it's a moot point. If I'm reading this as the edge of the road, here, now, what's this highway,..that's the highway right-of-way? MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-This, right here, is our boundary line. This is our property from here back. This is State from there. MR. CARTIER-But where's the road? MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-The road would be right out in this area, here. It would be out further. From here to the pavement, from this exact corner, right there, is just about six foot. MR. LAPOINT-What I think you have to do is make sure you have your justification for the re-zoning completely squared away, as Paul has suggested, and that's probably the wisest way. I don't see, from site plan, it looks good, okay, but you're not ready to tackle that one, yet. So, just make sure you've got your. MRS. MARTINDALE-Is this something that you would work with us, you like it and would like to see it in there? MR. LAPOINT-Yes. re-zoning's right. It's exactly what I would think would belong out there. The justification I can't get my arms around right now. Again, as long as the MRS. MARTINDALE-Would you try and think about some? MR. LAPOINT-Yes. I'd have to hear from what everybody has to say about re-zoning, and what your justifications are, and you're not at that stage, but I mean, from a site plan, it looks like a good concept. MRS. MARTINDALE-Thank you. MR. CARTIER-It seems to me the most appropriate way to look at this is to go at it in terms of this corridor study, and incorporate this thing in a corridor study, which means you're going to have to lean on somebody to get that corridor study. The Planning Board, I think, is certainly more than willing to get rolling on this and get plugged into that study process. The corridor thing has been floating around in the air for a couple of years, now, at least that I know of, maybe this is the thing to kick it off. MRS. CRAYFORD-This corridor study is to re-zone? MR. CARTIER-It's a study of 149 and what we're going to do with it. MR. MARTIN-Yes, and that would be the ultimate outcome. MRS. YORK-Yes. Our Department started it about two years ago, but then when we had no staff. MR. ROBERT MARTINDALE-How long do you think it will take to get this study done, is the next thing. We don't want to wait five years to do this. 9 ~ -- MRS. YORK-No. I wouldn't think, six months, a year. It depends on exactly what the constraints are, basically, of the people involved. It's been initiated. I've got some background work done on it. The Planning Board, obviously, the people who are here feel that it's worthwhile to work on. What would happen is if the Planning Board wanted to work on it, the Town Board said, why don't you work on it. We've got to have some interaction between the Boards, at this point in time. Then certainly time would be scheduled for it and then the Planning Board could make recommendations to the Town Board. MR. DUSEK-What kind of time frames did you folks have envisioned, just out of curiosity? What would you hope to have accomplished? Is October the 1st the date? MRS. MARTINDALE-No, if it were next spring or whatever, we. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-There's a few things that's complicating this whole situation, and I don't want to get into it. You all know what it is, but it is coming up planting time. We're already into the greenhouse at home, working to get our set plants started. There's no way that I'm going to be able to break ground until after Halloween, which is really the 1st of November, but there's an awful lot of talking that's got to be done, and, quite honestly, it's going to have to be done in phases, because you're looking at, easily, a million dollars, here. I'm looking at a half a million dollars, just with the pancake house. MRS. MARTINDALE-And the parking, the pancake house and the parking. MRS. CRAYFORD-I'm looking at you, when you said next October, are you talking maybe just a sugar house? MRS. MARTINDALE-No. I wanted to start the pancake house, becaulse I think that would give us. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-I'm going to be honest, it depends upon how much it's going to cost me in legal fees. If I've got to spend $50,000 in legal fees, you've hurt this little poor farm boy. You've hurt us bad, and that's what I'm hoping won't occur. MRS. YORK-Well, lets take a look at the long term concerns, here, because I think that's why we're all here. I think a dialogue should be started between the Planning Board and the Town Board, regarding, if they feel the, the Town Board has to tell me what to do, and suggest that Staff time should be devoted to this project. So, that's what we'll have to do. Maybe you want to pass a resolution at your next meeting, or discuss it when you go on site visits, or see how you want to proceed, but I think that it should be something that you get in touch with them and..you think this is a viable project. MR. CARTIER-Yes, I think maybe the way to go is not to say to the Town Board, we want you to do a corridor study. Tell them, we want you to authorize the Planning Department and Planning Board to do a corridor study. MRS. YORK-Yes, and to make suggestions back to them. MRS. CRAYFORD-So, you're saying, rather than have them go for are-zoning. MR. MARTIN-Well, I was going to try and summarize, here, and break this out. You've got your application under site plan, and that's a whole different issue, and we can..with that, and this here, I think you can basically break it out in one of two ways. You can just petition for a zone change right now and see where it catches on with one of the exi sti ng zones and see what happens. I, personally, feel the big issue there is going to be spot zoning. I think that's going to be a problem. You just can't get around it, all right, but the other way to go is this corridor study with an evaluation of the whole area and possibly the development of a new zone for a re-zoning of this area to that new zone and that would. MR. CARTIER-Which eliminates the spot zoning issue. MR. MARTIN-Right, which eliminates that problem, and would accommodate this project very nicely. MR. ROBERT MARTINDALE-So, if it wasn't for the zone, you as Planning Board members, would say that, yes, this is a good idea? MR. MARTIN-Yes. The spot zoning is the thing. I guess what we're all saying is we acknowledge a character change is going to occur, or it's reasonable to expect, and we're just going to try and nip it in the bud and deal with it as best we can, rather than have another overdeveloped, high intense problem on our hands. MR. DUSEK-One of the things I might mention is that if the Town undertakes it itself, I think that lightens the load on you folks, because they're going to include that as part of this. Whereas, if you undertake the petition on your own, of course, you're on your own to demonstrate your.. and everything. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-We're hoping that's the situation. We're not out to build, quite honestly, I think if I went for a zoning change, it would. 10 ~ --- MRS. MARTINDALE-We'd have a worse...on our hands than ever. MR. FRANCIS MARTlNDALE-I don't need it. We're getting pretty shaky as it is. If the Town and the Boards feel that this is something within the realm of reasonability, within the next year, is a year a long time to figure something like this? MR. MARTIN-I don't think that's unreasonable. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-Okay. I'm going to lose another maple season. MR. ROBERT MARTINDALE-As far as pancakes. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-Pancakes and maple syrup go together, and I can show you, in New York State alone, probably 150 farmers, because basically that's who makes syrup, that have pancake houses right off the side of their milk houses. MR. CARTIER-Yes, I hear you, and I don't want us to mislead you, in terms of a corridor study as, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing because you do a corridor study. Then you have to have public hearings. Okay, you have proposed a re-zoning, then you have public hearings. Now, you're dealing with a whole bunch more people, okay, and a re-zoning of an entire corridor is not something that falls into place. MRS. YORK-Plus you have to realize that whoever looks at this is going to be looking at what is in the best interest of the community as a total, and as to the land use along that stretch of road, where all the things you proposed may not fit in. It's not going to be done with just this property in mind. It will be done with that whole area. MR. MARTIN-And a lot of the considerations are infrastructure, what are the physical constraints, the physical development aspects of the whole area, soils, available sewer, water, all those things come into play. So, it's an all encompassing process. MRS. YORK-It's a big undertaking. It really is a large undertaking. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-As you know, Lee, you told us, better than two years ago, that this was in the process, and two years has gone by. We've procrastinated for two years. MRS. YORK-Yes, well, due to things beyond my control. MRS. MARTINDALE-Actually, this isn't being done just for us anyway. They've had a study of this going on. We don't expect it to be done just for us. MR. MARTIN-I guess that sort of summarizes, I guess, those are basically the two scenarios that you have available to you. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-But if I wait and work with you people, everybody's happier than if I go and ask for a re-zoning. Is that correct? MR. MARTIN-Everybody's the operative word. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-If I do it with you guys, am I going to get along better or are we going to have a hard time? If I go and ask for a re-zoning, I know I'm going to get resistance, and I'm not out for resistance. MR. MARTIN-And it's not necessarily going to come from this Board. When I say, everybody being the operative word, you're neighbors. MRS. MARTINDALE-And the Townspeople. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-I'm not arguing that. MR. MARTIN-All right. That's going to be the critical issue. MR. CARTIER-Maybe I could answer it this way. I doubt very much that the Planning Board will be the one that screws it up for you. MRS. MARTINDALE-Who will be? MR. CARTIER-I have no idea, but I would say that it's not the Planning Board that's going to. MR. MARTIN-The only thing I would like to see, from a planning aspect, in the ideal world, and it never is, but I would like to see the corridor study, and I don't think that anyone of the existing zones fully fits the needs of this corridor. So, in the ideal world, I would like to see that study done and maybe some attempts at drafting a district that would better fit what that study showed to be appropri ate. 11 -- - MR. BREWER-What are the other corridors zoned? MRS. YORK-Well, there are specific areas, like Residential Commercial on Corinth Road, which was kind of fitted specifically to the area, and Bay Road was MR-5 to create a. MR. BREWER-..sewer. MRS. YORK-Right, and to create, like, a community center and things. So, there has been zoning done around corridors specific to that area. It's not unique. MR. CARTIER-Would it be easier to go with something like a Recreation Commercial zone and then combine it with an overlay, 'than to create a brand new zone? MRS. YORK-It might be, Pete. What I've been long an advocate of is performance zoning, and linking that type of concept, but there's a whole lot of devices out there than can be considered, certainly, and I think we will have to look at a lot of different opportunities for this. MR. DUSEK-It seems to me, I think the first phase, then, is really going to be for everybody to kind of talk this over and decide what it is that they're going to want to do and set up a potential time frame, and that's what you folks are going to be interested in, and it seems to me that some discussions early on will start to yield some idea as to how long this process is going to be. I mean, if the corridor idea is the thing that catches on, everybody wants to do it, and then Jim and Lee and everybody, the Planning Board obviously will have some feel as to how long that's going to take, and then the Town Board, obviously, depending upon their schedules and what they've got to do, they'll throw in their time factors, and that'll start to give you folks a feel as to whether that is your best alternative and also, at the same time, not only timing, but you'll also start to get, probably during these discussions, some feedback as to what types of things are looking at up there and whether that fits with your plans. So, I think early on you'll be able to tell if this is going to be something that is going to work for you. If it isn't, then you always have that opportunity to come back and petition for a re-zoning anyway, on your own accord. So, even though you go one, you don't preclude yourself from at least applying. Not to say what will happen on that, but at least you have that opportunity. MR. CARTIER-Let me back up to something I said, too, just so you're perfectly clear where I stand. If I saw this as a spot zoning situation, I'd be very resistant to it, but I'm very supportive of it in terms of a corridor, a full corridor study. I'm very supportive of it. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-That's why I think it's necessary for us to wait. It's not going to be five years, two. HARRY HANSEN MR. HANSEN-Be advised that what's being said here is all well and good. A corridor zone, I think she's been trying to say she's worked on it for two years, and considering the situation today, the Staff involved, you're going to have to make the choice which one you want to go with, because no one can give you, in terms of a corridor zoning, how soon that it can be. It could be, or it could be. So, just as long as you're aware of that. She'll probably make the request, and somewhere down the line, somebody's going to make a decision. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-Well, I think that's why we're here tonight, so that you can see this, know our ideas, and we're saying, guide us, you tell us, so that there will be no hassles. I don't care about the hassles of the neighbors. I don't want government hassles. MR. MARTIN-And I understand that, and you certainly have touched the burner and found it to be to be a little warm, but anyhow, but I, on the other hand, will present the options, but I don't feel comfortable committing to this or stating a time frame, or even recommending you to go a certain way, because this Board, even, is only one voice, or, the decision is among many people and many groups, and how long it will take, even if it is done, is, so, I don't want to sit here and say, yes, or as a Board, say, yes, lets go with that corridor thing. We recommend that you wait, and then 18 months from now, you come back and say, yes, look what you told me, and I'm still sitting here on my hands. It's your decision, but it's not within our realm to do that. It's not our function. MRS. YORK-Even if the Town Board says, this is a good idea. Do a corridor, take a look at this corridor and get back to us with some recommendations, just as they don't have to consider any re-zoning, they don't have to consider that. So, I mean, it's not entirely up to anyone in this room. MR. MARTIN-Right, and it's a tough spot. I'd like to keep this along the planning lines and a corridor study is within that, and it's something that we can certainly try to advance. MR. CARTIER-Well, that's what I was just going to ask, can we, as a Board, decide that we are going to ask to be authorized to start looking for corridor study? 12 --- MRS. YORK-I think you have to do it that way. MR. MARTIN-We can certainly do that. Once a request goes in, if it gets acted on, great, but it may sit there, too. I don't know. So, I'm not going to sit here, one way or the other, and recommend that, yes, hold off because this is coming. MR. FRANCIS MARTINDALE-I hear you and I agree with you and I understand. MR. CARTIER-If that were commercial property out there already, I would look at this and say, beautiful, this is great. So, it's the zone issue, that you're confronted with. MRS. MARTINDALE-Okay. If the zoning is all taken care of, if you do get it through, then you would welcome this project? Is this something that we would? MR. CARTIER-Conceptually, yes. We don't know all the details, but conceptually. MR. MARTIN-And I think the emphasis, you're leaving a lot of open space, there's a rural character to it that you're trying to emphasis. MRS. MARTINDALE-A family fun oriented thing. MR. MARTIN-And the nature of the, this isn't like a retail like up a the Mall. I mean, this is something of a more rural, agricultural character, and I think that's appropriate, and maybe something you I d like to see in this particular corridor, encourage. MR. CARTIER-Something well designed could set the tone for whatever else goes there. MR. MARTIN-Right, because I'm a great one for these purposes, when you see these preambles to the districts. That's what it's all about. There's a lot said in there. Something of this nature in this particular area, I think, is well suited. So, I wish we could tell you more, and we'll do what we can, from that aspect of that corridor study. (8:05 p.m.) On motion meeting was adjourned. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED, James Martin, Chairman 13