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1994-01-25 -. .......( QUEENSBURY PLANNING BOARD MEETING SECOND REGULAR MEETING JANUARY 25TH, 1994 INDEX Site Plan No. 59-93 Michael DiPalma 1. Site Plan No. 1-94 Michael DiPalma 26. Site Plan No. 2-94 Esther Cavanaugh 36. Site Plan No. 3-94 Garden Time, Inc. 40. SEQRA REVIEW Harris Bay Yacht 45. THESE ARE NOT OFFICIALLY ADOPTED MINUTES AND ARE SUBJECT TO BOARD AND STAFF REVISIONS. REVISIONS WILL APPEAR ON THE FOLLOWING MONTHS MINUTES (IF ANY) AND WILL STATE SUCH APPROVAL OF SAID MINUTES. "~ -- QUEENSBURY PLANNING BOARD MEETING SECOND REGULAR MEETING JANUARY 25, 1994 7:00 P.M. MEMBERS PRESENT TIMOTHY BREWER, CHAIRMAN GEORGE STARK ROGER RUEL CRAIG MACEWAN EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR-JAMES MARTIN PLANNER-SCOTT HARLICKER STENOGRAPHER-MARIA GAGLIARDI MR. BREWER-We'll go right into the New Business. NEW BUSINESS: SITE PLAN NO. 59-93 TYPE I MICHAEL DIPALMA OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE ZONE: LC-42A, C.E.A. LOCATION: ROUTE 9L, ACROSS FROM WILLIAMSONS STORE. PROPOSAL IS TO BUILD A 14' X 16' ADDITION TO SINGLE FAMILY HOME. SEQRA REVIEW: 1/25/94 CROSS REFERENCE: AV '94-1993 WARREN CO. PLANNING: 12/8/93 APA TAX MAP NO. 20-1-8 LOT SIZE: 1/2 ACRE SECTION 179-79 F MICHAEL O'CONNOR, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff, Site Plan No. 59-93, 1-94, Michael DiPalma, Meeting Date: January 25, 1994 "PROJECT DESCRIPTION: The applicant is before the Board with two site plan applications, one is for a fourteen by sixteen foot (14 x 16) foot addition and the other is for a bed and breakfast. Both applications involve the same residence. The residence is located on Route 9L across the road from Williamsons store near the intersection with Hanneford Road. The property is zoned LC-42A and is approximately one-half (1/2) acre in size. It is not serviced by municipal water or sewer. The applicant operates a seasonal guide service out of the residence and occasionally has customers stay over night at the residence. PROJECT ANALYSIS: In accordance with Section 179-38 A., the project is in compliance with the other requirements of this chapter, including the dimensional regulations of the zoning district in which it is to be located. In accordance with Section 179-38 B., the project was reviewed in order to determine if it is in harmony with the general purpose or intent of this chapter, and it was found to be compatible with the zone in which it is to be located and should not be a burden on supporting public services. In accordance with Section 179-38 C., the proposal was reviewed regarding its impact on the highways. There was found to be no significant impact on the road system. In accordance with Section 179-38 D., the project was compared to the relevant factors outlined in Section 179-39. The project was compared to the following standards found in Section 179-38 E. of the Zoning Code: 1. The location, arrangement, size, design and general site compatibility of buildings, lighting and signs; The addition will be compatible with the existing structure and no new lighting is proposed. A small sign is proposed but it is not clear where it will go. 2. The adequacy and arrangement of vehicular traffic access and circulation, including intersections, road widths, pavement surfaces, dividers and traffic controls; Vehicular traffic access is adequate. Access to the site is via an eighteen (18) foot wide existing driveway. However, cars will have to back out onto Route 9L which is an undesirable situation. 3. The location, arrangement, appearance and sufficiency of off-street parking and loading; Off street parking is adequate. There is - 1 - -.- .---- - -r room for three (3) vehicles, one (1) in the garage and two (2) in the driveway. 4. The adequacy and arrangement of pedestrian traffic access and circulation walkway structures, control of intersections with vehicular traffic and overall pedestrian convenience¡ Pedestrian access is adequate. 5. The adequacy of stormwater drainage facilities¡ Stormwater drainage is adequate. 6. The adequacy of water supply and sewage disposal facilities' The applicant should provide additional information regarding wate; supply. The applicant had tests done that indicate that the septic system is adequate. 7. The adequacy, type and arrangement of trees, shrubs and other suitable plantings, landscaping and screening constituting a visual andlor noise buffer between the applicant's and adjoining lands, including the maximum retention of existing vegetation and maintenance including replacement of dead plants¡ Landscaping access is adequate. 8. The adequacy of fire lanes and other emergency zones and the provision of fire hydrants¡ Emergency access is adequate. 9. The adequacy and impact of structures, roadways, and landscaping in areas with susceptibility to ponding, flooding andlor erosion. This is not an issue. RECOMMENDATION: Providing the water supply is adequate staff can recommend approval of the site plan for the addition and the bed & breakfast." MR. HARLICKER-There were some comments made regarding the use of the dock as it relates to the use of the bed & breakfast application. Dave Finlayson, I believe his last name is, I spoke with him this afternoon. He's with the Lake George Park Commission, and according to the Lake George Park Commission, the applicant currently has a Class B Marina license for the use of that dock. which allows him to moor one additional boat along with his, and it allows him to use his boat to go to a different location, another marina, to pick up customers. and then operate his guide service from there. MR. BREWER-So he can have a total of two boats? MR. HARLICKER-Right. They also said that if the applicant uses the dock to board and unboard passengers at that dock, it becomes a Type A Marina, which would require him going through another permitting process, and right now, according to the Lake George Park Commission, they have him listed as a permitted Class B Marina. MR. BREWER-Okay. You mentioned in here this needs a variance. Is that so? MR. MARTIN-It did get a variance already. It also should be noted wi th that particular application, I'll take you through what happened. There was a motion approving the variance that night. It was defeated initially, two to four. The Board, later on that night, considered the same resolution, and passed it four to two. There was a question posed, though, by a member of the Zoning Board of Appeals, as did they have the standing to do that. Usually, a Zoning Board will need a public hearing to reconsider an application like that. The question was posed to Paul Dusek. He has yet to render an opinion. I just tell you this as background information, and I posed the question to Paul how this effects your si te plan review tonight. He said you can proceed on with your si te plan review, and you can even come to a decision if you'd like, but should that variance be rendered void by what happened, then your site plan would also be void should the variance change at all. If they reconsider and change the variance in any way, then they're going to have to come back to this Board for a site plan. If the variance is reconsidered, exactly as it was, first of all if it has to be. There's question as to whether it has to be, but'if it does have to be, and it's passed exactly as it was, then you're site plan review would stand also. MR. BREWER-I guess I would just say that in past practice, we normally wouldn't give a site plan approval for an application that - 2 - ~_._-~-- ...... y needs a variance. MR. MARTIN-The variance was passed. It was denied the first time, then passed the second time. There's some question as to the standing of that. I'm not qualified to say which resolution has standing. That's why the question was posed to the Attorney. MR. STARK-When will he render a decision? MR. MARTIN-I would think he'll have an opinion for us within the next week or so. MR. STARK-Put it off until next week. We might have a decision by then. MR. BREWER-But I think we can go through the pUblic hearing tonight, and then if we decide that we want to wait until next, or, no, that's only the day after tomorrow, we have our next meeting. MR. HARLICKER-Thursday. MR. BREWER-Thursday. MR. MARTIN-Yes. I don't think he's going to have his opinion that fast. MR. BREWER-Well, lets go through the public hearing, and here what the applicant has to say, the public, and decide what we want to do. MR. MARTIN-It's the discretion of the Board. tonight, or postpone, was Paul's opinion. You can either act MR. BREWER-Okay, and we do have someone here from the applicant? Would you care to say anything? MR. O'CONNOR-I'm Mike O'Connor, from the law firm of Little & O'Connor, with Mike Di Palma. I'm here representing the applicant, and I would give you just a little bit of background, as Mr. Martin has done. Basically, this started out as a simple application for a 14' by 16' addition to a single family residence that Mr. Di Palma now occupies as his residence. When it went before the Zoning Board, it was determined that it is a preexisting, nonconforming lot, because they changed the zoning since the lot was created, a long, long time ago. The addition could not meet the setbacks that would be required by the present day zoning for this lot, in an LC-42 acre zone, I believe. So, he began with an application for an area variance to place the addition on the side of the house, and at that time, much discussion arose as to what his use of the property is, or his use of the property has been, and even what the use of the property was intended to be. To simplify things at that time, Mr. Di Palma stipulated that he wished to go forward with the proposal for the area variance, and obtain an area variance for the 14' by 16' addition, and agreed that he would not use it as a bed & breakfast facility, except if he made application to this Board for site plan approval. At that time, in all honesty, he did not intend to do an application to this Board, but when he went in to get his building permit, he found out that he had to come to this Board anyway, because it's in a Critical Environmental Area, and because it's an expansion of a nonconforming building in a Critical Environmental Area, he had to apply for site plan review. We then filed, still with the same theory that this 14' by 16' foot room would be used by Mr. Di Palma for his own private purposes, and not part of the bed & breakfast. He basically wanted a room for his trophies and what not, and keep it separate from the other part of the house that they use for the bed & breakfast. We filed the application, two applications, the application for the residential site plan review. I then spoke to Jim Martin, we spoke a couple of different times, and nobody seemed to be real clear as to when this began to be used as a bed & - 3 - - -" breakfast, or under what circumstances it was used as a bed & breakfast. There was even a question as to whether or not it really was in the definition of Bed & Breakfast. Mr. DiPalma bought the property in 1979. He became a licensed Guide in 1984. It wasn't until after 1984 that he began taking lodgers in, if you will, for consideration or payment. If you look at the history of the zoning, this was an R-1 zone in 1966. In 1979 when the property was re-zoned, it was still that when he bought it. In 1982, it became an LC-42 Acre zone, and if you look at the uses in LC-42 Acre zone, in 1982, we did not recognize a bed & breakfast in the Town. I don't think we recognized a bed & breakfast as a separate permitted listed use any place in the Town of Queensbury until 1988. When we revised the Ordinance in 1988, we added that as a permitted Type II site plan review permitted use. Whether all that came together or not, I don't know. Jim Martin suggested that we submit a commercial site plan review to legitimize the bed & breakfast, in addition to his residential site plan review that we submitted for this 14' by 16' addition. That's basically where we're at. I think, as part of the application, we have submitted some information. In fact, we actually submitted the log that Mr. Di Palma keeps as to how many times he actually uses the property in the manner that we talk about within our Ordinance as a bed & breakfast. In 1993, there were 12 occasions when persons stayed there as a guests. The actual breakdown of dates and numbers is set forth in the application before you. We're talking two to four guests at anyone time. We're talking length of stay, two days to, at one time, six days. I found out, after I submitted that, that two of those 12 occasions were actually non paying guests. One was a re lati ve, and one was just a friend. Basically, that's what we're talking about. We're talking about a 224 foot addition to a single family home. We have been to the County Planning Board at least twice or three times, I'm not sure, three times. The variance they approved it without comment. There's no County impact. With the residential site plan, they approved it without comment. With the commercial site plan, they approved it after discussion, or recommended approval, after discussion. We've been to the Beautification Committee. We've been to the Zoning Board of Appeals, and we do have a variance that was granted by the Zoning Board of Appeals. There is a question by one of the members of the Zoning Board of Appeals to the Town Attorney, after we got the variance, and I think outside of the 30 days of our getting that variance, as to whether or not they followed the proper procedure, or whether or not they should have used a different procedure. In our Ordinance, and in the Town Law, there is language that if a variance is denied, before the Board can reconsider it, there has to be a unanimous vote of the Board to reconsider it, and then there has to be a unanimous approval, if there's a change, at the time of reconsideration. The question that Paul is looking at, and thinks that there's a case, where it took place in the same meeting, it's like you folks offer one resolution that doesn't pass, is that a denial? And then you offer other resolutions, and finally you come to some consensus, and you make a second decision. MR. BREWER-In mY mind, just from being here for a while, I know that if somebody makes a motion, and we don't pass it, it's no action, unless somebody makes a motion to deny. Is the case made that a motion was made to deny? MR. MARTIN-I asked Paul specifically about this, for this case as well as future references with the Zoning Board. The Zoning Board it's different. It was explained to me by Paul that a motion to approve a variance, if defeated by vote, like in this case, two to four, that constitutes a denial, and no further action is needed by the Board. Although it is preferable to have the actual motion of denial, because it makes his job easier should it be challenged. Now the reverse is not true. If a motion to deny is stricken down, like, two to four, that does not automatically mean approval. The Board would have to actually make a motion to approve in that case. That's the way it is for Zoning Board's. That's the way it was explained to me by Paul. - 4 - -. MR. O'CONNOR-My suggestion to all that business is that that is a legal issue that I think Paul is going to give advice to the ZBA as to whether or not their action was appropriate or not appropriate, and whether or not the variance is valid. I would ask you to take the position that we have the variance granted. Look at this application on its merits. This is a proposal for a bed & breakfast, and aside from the proposal as a bed & breakfast, it's a, part of that proposal is a proposal to add 224 feet of one room to the existing structure. MR. BREWER-Well, if he's already operating a bed & breakfast, how come he's applying now? MR. 0' CONNOR-Because there appears never to have been a permit applied for or granted or given. MR. BREWER-Wouldn't that be a preexisting nonconforming use? MR. 0' CONNOR-This is where we, I don't know. It's got poor standing, it should be answered, and I think you should apply the same standards to this application that you do to any other bed & breakfast that's come before you. MR. MARTIN-My advice was to clean it up and make it a truly, an allowed use there. That's why he's here for site plan. Now the thing that you should also remember is the variance does not involve the site plan concerning the bed & breakfast. That can be fUlly acted on tonight. There's nothing to do with the Zoning Board on that. It's just the site plan associated with that addition that is somewhat in question, or the variance, I should say. MR. BREWER-How many boats do you plan on having? MICHAEL DIPALMA MR. DIPALMA-I just have one boat, and I have a neighbor that is not involved with me at all. He just uses this to go to work, the marina he works at, and having problems in the past. The Park Commission came over and said, in order to have a second boat at this dock, you have to be a Class B Marina. So I did what they said. I pay an extra fee now and have a commercial dock. MR. BREWER-Is that dock rented? MR. DIPALMA-It's not for pay. He takes care of the dock for me, and he fixes my boat. He's a mechanic. He fixes my boat in return for the dock space. MR. BREWER-All right, and what about the question about the water? Scott had a question about water. MR. O'CONNOR-I have a report here from C.T. Male of samples taken September 22nd. I didn't know you were going to have that until I saw your minutes this afternoon. This does not show that there's any problems with the water. I'll submit that as part of your record. This is not typical one liner. Apparently, and I don't know if this is why you raised the question. MR. HARLICKER-If I recall, it had been brought up in the Zoning Board, and Mr. Di Palma mentioned that he uses, a lot of times, bottled water. MR. MARTIN-Or water from a nearby spring. MR. HARLICKER-Water from a nearby spring. MR. O'CONNOR-By preference he does. MR. HARLICKER-Okay. - 5 - MR. O'CONNOR-By history, apparently, there was a property across the street that had underground, apparently, had some type of underground storage which was a source of contamination. The State does this testing four times a year. As you see, that was part of the remediation of that site across the street. I'll submit that to you. MR. BREWER-Does anybody on the Board have any questions? MR. STARK-Are we talking about both of these items together, or just one? MR. BREWER-I don't see any reason why we can't talk about both of them. Act on them one at a time. We have to do a SEQRA on. MR. MACEWAN-Are you going to open the public hearing? MR. BREWER-I will after ~ get done. We have to do a SEQRA on both the site plan and the bed & breakfast. MR. MACEWAN-Can we do one SEQRA for both? separate SEQRAs? Or do we have to do MR. BREWER-Well, we can do one, and then just. MR. MARTIN-Just to clarify, you will state on the record that these indicate acceptable safe drinking levels? Because really all it is is a bunch of dates and, there's no statement that says. MR. O'CONNOR-It's been told to me that that is their report to us on a quarterly basis, that the well is fine, that you can use it. MR. MACEWAN-No problem drinking the water? MR. 0' CONNOR-We have filters. This is a sample that was taken before the filters. There are two filters on the well. If you want to, I have no problem with you making your approval condition it upon us getting the simple one line water report from the Queensbury Water Department that the water is potable. MR. MARTIN-It says here, it's a letter from Russell Mulvey, and Environmental Engineer from DEC in Warrensburg. If assistance is needed in interpreting these results, contact Brian Fear of New York State Health. MR. O'CONNOR-We have no problems saying, we will stipulate, I think anybody else, we can come up with a simple one liner from Queensbury which said the water is potable, and even if it weren't, we could have an alternative source of water available for guests. MR. STARK-I to clear that up, maybe, Mike. I have to check my water four times a year, for the Motel, and it has to be checked for coliform, okay, at a certain, for each well, and then once a year, now, you have to check for nitrates and nitrites. MR. O'CONNOR-This has got a list of 15 chemicals on it. MR. STARK-Okay. Well, possibly because it's over there. MR. O'CONNOR-And this is something the State does for us. It's not something we do. The State sends somebody to take their samples, and they take the sample and they send the test report. I've never been involved in that before, and I also didn't see this until I saw, at 3:30 this afternoon, the comments by Staff that they were looking for some proof that we had potable water. MR. STARK-Now, you've been running it as a bed & breakfast for how long? MR. DIPALMA-I get in trouble when I talk, to me, it wasn't a bed & - 6 - breakfast, but in terms of the law it was. I got started when I retired, and it seemed a great place to live, like your sign says, to come up here and relax. Go fishing the rest of my life, until I got into some problems with the Town. Some were valid. Some weren't, but I have been having people there since 1984. MR. MARTIN-In the context of the review by the Zoning Board, the Board got into this a little bit and he submitted information to our Office, tax records and DBA certifications and things like that, that do reflect the date of 1984. MR. O'CONNOR-He's also been a licensed Guide since '84, and that's pretty much when he started taking people in. MR. BREWER-Okay. MR. MACEWAN-How many people live in the house now? MR. DIPALMA-Just myself. MR. MACEWAN-Just you, and how many bedrooms do you have? MR. DIPALMA-I have two bedrooms. MR. MACEWAN-How many bathrooms? MR. DIPALMA-One. MR. MACEWAN-One. That's all I have for now. MR. BREWER-Okay. I just have one question about the car, the vehicles. They back right out onto 9L? MR. DIPALMA-No, we back in, so it's easier. MR. BREWER-Is there any way, possibly, you could make this parking area a little wider, so you could pull in and. MR. DIPALMA-That's the way I park now. MR. BREWER-It shows the cars driving in. MR. DIPALMA-Yes. I do park, if I have to, in front of the house. MR. MARTIN-I also want to inform the Board, it was news to me today, I found out, apparently backing in to highways is an illegal action. MR. BREWER-That's what I'm trying to get away from, the peak. If you made this a little wider, pulled your cars in and parked like this, then they can back out and drive out. That's not a problem with you? MR. DIPALMA-No problem. MR. BREWER-Okay. You don't have a problem with us making that a condition? MR. DIPALMA-I'd have to cut a tree down to do that. small maple tree there. The re ' s a MR. BREWER-There's not enough room to leave that tree there? MR. DIPALMA-Well, I'll take a look at it. I'll take care of this. MR. BREWER-Okay. MR. MARTIN-I've just got one comment. How do they propose addressing the problem with the Class B Marina license that limits you to just your personal use of the dock, and not allowing anybody brought to the dock from off-site? - 7 - MR. O'CONNOR-We don't presently use the dock to take people to do fishing on the lake. We specifically, because there was a hassle, have people go to another dock at a marina and we pick them up there, even if they're staying at their residence, and that's the way it's been worked. Much of the use of the boat, and much of, actually, Mr. DiPalma's operation is that that's his personal boat. He takes that boat off to motels and picks up people at motels and takes them out onto the lake to fish, takes them back to their mote 1. MR. MARTIN-I was primarily asking about the people who do stay. MR. O'CONNOR-Okay. I'm just trying to explain a little bit. The dock, right now, is used for private purposes. It's not part of the application. MR. MARTIN-Then you'd agree to a stipulation that guests staying at the house will not fish via the dock. or directly via the dock? MR. O'CONNOR-If they're paying guests, that's part of the application, but I don't think you're also talking about people who, you're talking about them not using the dock for purposes of getting in the boat, as the Lake George Park Commission is talking about? You're not talking about prohibiting people from going down on the dock and fishing? MR. MARTIN-No. I'm talking about using the dock as a part of the bed & breakfast/fishing guide. MR. O'CONNOR-Okay. If that's a condition, that's fine. MR. BREWER-Yes, but suppose he has a couple of guys that want to stay there for a week during the summer and then want to go fishing? How are we going to stop that? MR. O'CONNOR-They fish on the dock. If they go out in a boat. MR. BREWER-Well, I'm saying, if me and a buddy of mine call up to some place in Lake George and want to go fishing for a week, he's got a bed & breakfast. He's a Guide. Why wouldn't we go to his place and stay and go fishing with him? MR. O'CONNOR-They do. He tells them they have to get in their car, and he meets them at the marina, up from the lake, and picks them up there. That's what they've been doing. MR. BREWER-All right. I'll open the public hearing. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED CHUCK BLEIBTREY MR. BLEIBTREY-Chuck Bleibtrey. Did you get a couple of faxes just before this meeting, letters objecting to this, from some other people on Hanneford Road? MR. HARLICKER-We have the letters. We're going to read them into the record. MR. BLEIBTREY-Just got them, just before the meeting? MR. MARTIN-Yes. afternoon. They came about four o'clock, four-thirty this MR. HARLICKER-Nothing's been dropped off tonight. MR. BLEIBTREY-The people have been charged to stay there since 1984. Is that what was just said here? Have we been getting sales tax from that? - 8 - -' MR. BREWER-Don't know. MR. BLEIBTREY-Because I was talking to the tax people today, and I want to know if there's a sales tax number involved with this. I think there should be. MR. BREWER-That's New York State. MR. BLEIBTREY-Do you have a sales tax number? MR. DIPALMA-I'm not answering any of your questions. MR. BLEIBTREY-Okay. They want me to call tomorrow, either with or without the tax number. Okay. I live right next door to this guy. I'll go to the map and I'll show you where I'm at. Right along in here, this side of the property is where I live. This is where his access to his dock is, down through the end of the property. Now, we've been having trouble. Do you have a letter there from Mrs. Bleibtrey? Would you mind reading that into the minutes? ---- MR. BREWER-Scott, do you have a letter from his wife? MR. HARLICKER-Yes, we do. MR. MARTIN-Yes. We typically do those after the people come to the microphone. The Board will take the letters at that time. MR. BLEIBTREY-Okay. There was a part in there that states that we have been subjected to numerous occasions of obscene language from Mike DiPalma, and we have a 10 year old girl, and he's used some pretty rotten language, directly at her. I'm fed up with it. I don't want any more traffic through our yard. I don't want strange men in there, mainly because 10 to 12 years old is the exact age that people kidnap, rape, sodomize, and murder, such as Sarah Ann Wood. I have no idea who these people are coming through that yard, and neighbors, fine, no problem, but I don't want, anybody that picks up that magazine and answers that ad and rents a spot in his house in our yard, and this is directly tied into this charter business. I don't care what he says. That's why he's here, and it's pretty raw language he uses. I wouldn't even say it here, unless you want me to, and I will say it into the record. MR. BREWER-No, I don't. MR. BLEIBTREY-Variance 1352, on 5/18/88, Area Variance 26-1992, 4/15/92. I'd ask you people to read those variances. You'll see that he lied to the Town on numerous occasions, several occasions, and he just tells you whatever you want to hear to get what he wants. He's here admitting he's been violating the Zoning Ordinance since 1984, and he's asking you to reward him by granting him permission to continue to do that, and he just, that's the way he does things. He just lies to you. I have never seen the same people there twice. Now, what about cutting down any more trees? Is there anymore tree cutting involved with this thing? Because he's been down in our yard cutting trees down, to make (lost word). MR. BREWER-Sir, the things that he's doing to your property, I can appreciate you telling us, but there's nothing we can do about it. MR. BLEIBTREY-Well, it's all tied into this. there's going to be any more tree cutting through. I want to know if to get this thing MR. BREWER-I can't tell you that. I honestly can't tell you if he's going to cut anymore trees or not. MR. BLEIBTREY-Well, why don't you ask him? Isn't that what we're here for? MR. BREWER-Okay. We'll ask him. I'll write it down, and as soon - 9 - ,--,' ..-r as everybody gets done, I'll ask him if he's going to cut anymore trees. MR. BLEIBTREY-By the way, there's a Corvette parked in that driveway all the time. You can't count that as a parking spot, and this is not a minor operation, as it says here in the letter. There's constantly strangers in our yard. We're always picking up the garbage from these people. One of their favorite tricks is to bring a gallon bottle of urine in from the trip and dump it in our yard. According to that set of blueprints right there, he's got a four by four septic system, four feet by four feet. Is that right? MR. BREWER-Four by four? Where do you see four by four? MR. BLEIBTREY-You see the existing septic system right there? It's drawn right next to the house. MR. MACEWAN-I think that's a graphic representation as to where it should be located, not the actual size of it. MR. BREWER-It has to meet the standards. MR. BLEIBTREY-Well, do you realize that that is less than 20 feet from water, or wetlands? Less than 20 feet. How can you approve something if it's not. MR. BREWER-It's preexisting, sir. We're not approving that septic system. It's there. It's been there, I don't know how long. MR. BLEIBTREY-Okay. You're adding another bedroom to it, though. MR. BREWER-Yes, and if it meets the Codes, we have no right to deny it. MR. BLEIBTREY-Well, when was it tested? MR. HARLICKER-I've got a letter here from Ray Buckley. They did a test on the septic system, dated September 2nd, 1993. MR. BLEIBTREY-When did they do it? MR. HARLICKER-December 2nd, 1993. The conclusion was, the existing building has two bedrooms. The sewage system design flow would be 300 gallons per day. Testing was done at a rate of 540 gallons in less than a day, or 120 percent of the required design flow for a three bedroom residence. The performance of the system was satisfactory under these conditions. MR. MARTIN-And he's got his stamp on there. MR. HARLICKER-Stamp on it. MR. BLEIBTREY-That obviously wasn't done at peak periods, right, December 2nd, nobody, you know. MR. MARTIN-What he did is they put 540 gallons of liquid through the system. That's what he says there. They've gone 120 percent of the design capacity for a three bedroom house. We have a two bedroom house. They went 120 percent of the design capacity, and it still did not fail. MR. BLEIBTREY-Okay. State field, but, I You could say that sales tax is part of the mean, the Town gets the sales tax from that. MR. BREWER-Not all of it. MR. BLEIBTREY-No. I know they don't get all of it. MR. BREWER-They don't mail it to the Town. - 10 - ~ .~ MR. BLEIBTREY-No. addition, right? I realize that, sir. This is about the MR. BREWER-It's about both. Well, yes, I guess we'll have to have a public hearing. MR. MARTIN-I would. recommend that, I would recommend you have two, just to keep it. MR. BREWER-Yes. We'll have two, one for the bed & breakfast and one for the addition. MR. BLEIBTREY-I would like you to find out, as long as you're going to ask more questions later, about the tree cutting. MR. BREWER-We will. MR. BLEIBTREY-We don't want any more tree cutting done. MR. BREWER-I will, but again, I don't have a right to tell a man he can't cut a tree down on his land. MR. BLEIBTREY-I'm asking you to ask him if he's planning on cutting any more trees down on mY land. MR. BREWER-Well, that's against the law. You can call the sheriff about that. MR. BLEIBTREY-Well, I'm just asking you to ask him, and ask far as strangers coming through our yard, now he has, after repeated requests to have this pile of rubbish picked up that's laying in my front yard. he hasn't (lost word) after almost a year. He had the whole dock rebuilt and just threw it in my yard. Now that is laying there. Now this is the kind of person that wants to run a business up there, and I would like you people to come up and visit this site before you make a decision on it. MR. BREWER-We have. MR. MACEWAN-We did. MR. BLEIBTREY-Did you come down and look at that mess? MR. MACEWAN-We didn't look at your property. property. We looked at his MR. BLEIBTREY-Did you go down and look at the dock? MR. MACEWAN-We didn't have to go down and look at the dock. MR. BLEIBTREY-Okay, because this is tied in with that dock. I want to assure you. This is tied in with the charter business. Okay. And the fact that this will not have an adverse effect is false. It's been bothering my daughter right along, all these strangers in here, and my wife and myself. It's been bothering us quite badly. Obviously, I think you can probably tell that, right? That this project would not have any affect on aesthetic resources? That's false. He's down there cutting trees down. MR. MACEWAN-He'll be cutting trees on his property or your property? MR. BLEIBTREY-He's got a 10 foot right-of-way, and he's down there cutting trees down, and it does cause a lot of noise, trash, like I said, they're dumping urine in the yard. They have had as many as three other charter boats in there, people I don't know, and they'll run up and down the hill with five gallon gasoline cans from their truck, maybe make 15 or 20 trips, and they'll sit in the boat for hours just sitting there drinking and talking and fooling around, just hanging around in our area. So we don't want any more - 11 - -- commercial activity up there, and this is having a negative effect on the community, and, George, I know you've got the Motel over there on Route 9, right? MR. STARK-Yes. MR. BLEIBTREY-I remember about 1983 you were down here because somebody wanted to put a sign on your property, and you were livid. but fortunately enough George Pense 1 was a good neighbor and he wi thdrew his application for that. I think you remember that, don't you. MR. STARK-Sure. I wouldn't let it go on for one day. MR. BLEIBTREY-That's right. MR. STARK-Why you let this go on, if it's true, you should go to the Sheriff's Department, because according to you, you have a good case. Go to the Sheriff's Department. MR. BLEIBTREY-I may end up there. First I'm going to the tax department tomorrow, and this is not seasonal. I mean, he lives there. He's there year round. It says here it's seasonal. MR. BREWER-The business, I presume, is seasonal, the bed & breakfast. He lives there year round. MR. BLEIBTREY-Yes. right. MARGARET BLEIBTREY MRS. BLEIBTREY-Margaret Bleibtrey. It's seasonal if you want to consider spring, summer, and fall as one season. The only season he doesn't operate is the winter, and from what I read, he's trying to legitimize something that's been going on, that he's been lying to the Town about for years. If he has been lying in all the other variances, what makes you think he's not lying now? MR. STARK-Have you talked to the Town Supervisor about it? MRS. BLEIBTREY-Yes, in the past we have. MR. STARK-And what was his answer? MRS. BLEIBTREY-We haven't had any help from the Town, other than the two previous requests for variance for a dock extension have been denied, but as far as stopping the illegal charter fishing business, and the board and lodging business, nothing's been done. MR. BREWER-If the bed & breakfast is an allowed use, ma'am, and he has a right to do it. MRS. BLEIBTREY-It's allowed in an LC-42A, that's correct, but it's been done all these years, without approval, and he's denied it at the previous variance hearings. MR. BREWER-He just got done telling us, he's been doing it since '84. He's trying to clean up a situation that was not proper, and I respect him for that. MRS. BLEIBTREY-He's trying to legitimize what he says is a minor operation, business enterprise in our residential area. As far as I'm concerned, he has no right to operate a business in our area. Maybe in LC-42A a bed & breakfast is allowed, but he has to meet all of the requirements. MR. BREWER-And that's what we're here to make sure he's going to do. MRS. BLEIBTREY-It's been going on, and he says that it hasn't been - 12 - -- .-.-/ going on. Now he's admitting it, because he's trying to make like he's, all of a sudden, this honest person coming forward, getting the permission to do what he's doing in our residential area, and the bed & breakfast is tied into with the fishing charter business. We don't want any of it going on. MR. BLEIBTREY-Is there any penalty involved for violating the Zoning Ordinance, or is that just there as a? MR. BREWER-You'd have to talk to Mr. Martin about that. MR. BLEIBTREY-Is there any penalty for violating the Ordinance? MR. MARTIN-In a case like this, where a use is occurring, that is permitted by site plan review, the most I can do is hold him to come in for site plan review. If he refuses to do that, then I can institute a court action against him, a summons, but he is here. It is coming in to compliance. If the Board denies it, then that's it. The use ends. MRS. BLEIBTREY-Maybe bed & breakfast is allowed in LC-42, but is a fishing charter business allowed in LC-42A? MR. MARTIN-No. A fishing charter business is not. MRS. BLEIBTREY-Well, it's all going on at the same home. MR. MARTIN-That is a preexisting use, that the Ordinance was adopted in 1988. That use predates the Ordinance, and therefore, it has a preexisting status, what a lot of people refer to as grandfathered status. MRS. BLEIBTREY-The bed & breakfast, you're referring to? MR. MARTIN-No, the fishing charter, not unless it goes out of use for an eighteen month period or longer, which, everything I've heard, and I've sat at all the Zoning Board meetings on the recent expansion, the use has been continuous every summer since that time. So, the fishing charter has preexisting status, and the bed & breakfast or the lodging component needs site plan approval. That's why he's here. MRS. BLEIBTREY-What gives him the right to operate this commercial enterprise in a residential zone, whether it's to be started in 1984 or 1989? MR. BREWER-Because there was no zoning when he started it. MRS. BLEIBTREY-There was no zoning when he started it? Yes, there was. MR. BLEIBTREY-There was zoning when he started this. MRS. BLEIBTREY-It was more strict than it is now. MR. MARTIN-The key is, and this is, within State Law. how it treats preexisting uses, is the adoption of the Ordinance. If it predates the adoption of the Ordinance, then a use is allowed to continue. It can't expand or anything like that, but it can continue in its preexisting state. MR. BLEIBTREY-What date did the Zoning Ordinance come into existence? MR. MARTIN-The current Ordinance came in in October of '88. MRS. BLEIBTREY-Prior to that, it was more stringent. MR. BLEIBTREY-Yes. What about the first one? - 13 - ------- MR. MARTIN-The last Ordinance before that was 1982, and I wasn't here then. I wasn't the Zoning Administrator. MR. BREWER-That is when you should have done something about it. MR. BLEIBTREY-We' ve been to the Town ever since we started up there. MR. BREWER-Okay, but you can't hold us responsible for that. MR. BLEIBTREY-I'm not. I'm just saying, this is not a preexisting use. MR. STARK-You moved in, when? MR. BLEIBTREY-1984. MR. STARK-Okay, and Mr. DiPalma was living in the house at that time? MR. BLEIBTREY-Right. MR. STARK-Who was living in the house before Mr. DiPalma? Do you have any idea? MR. BLEIBTREY-No. MR. STARK-I was just wondering if he, whoever was in the house prior to that, was he running a charter business? MR. BLEIBTREY-I'm sure there's somebody here on Hanneford Road that knows who it was. I'm sure there's somebody here that knows. MR. STARK-The longer residents, you mean? MR. BLEIBTREY-Yes. MR. STARK-Okay. MRS. BLEIBTREY-And you brought up the fact of expansion. They're not allowed to expand, just to mention this. If you give him this approval for a bed & breakfast, which is directly tied in with his illegal fishing charter business, what do you think is going to happen? There is going to be a great expansion, because now he's legitimate. He was lying about it before, but if you give him the approval, he could say, hey, I'm legitimate. MR. BREWER-Ma' am, if he does anything illegal, if he gets this approval and he does anything illegal, you call the Sheriff's Department or you call the Town and the enforcement will take place. MRS. BLEIBTREY-We've been through that in the past. Nothing has been enforced. I'm just telling you that. MR. BREWER-I'm sure if you call Jim Martin it will be taken care of. MR. BLEIBTREY-Well, what it comes down to is her word against his, and they believe him. That's what happens when the Town gets involved. MR. MARTIN-That's not true. If someone calls me, I respond to the complaint. I don't take sides. MR. BLEIBTREY-If it wasn't you, it was the previous Zoning Administrator. MR. O'CONNOR-With due respect, can we stay with the merits of the application that's before the Board? I don't mean to cut it short, - 14 - but Mr. Hatin has been at the property on different occasions. It goes back to even Bert Martin being at the property on different occasions. They did not find a violation. MRS. BLEIBTREY-Yes, they did. We have the violation. MR. BREWER-Ma'am, please. not get into a debate on violating. Lets stick with the application. who was there and whether they Lets were MRS. BLEIBTREY-I have a copy of the violation. MR. BREWER-Okay. Give it to Mr. Martin. MRS. BLEIBTREY-I will. MR. BREWER-Okay. I'm not trying to be short with you. MRS. BLEIBTREY-Okay. Well, we're just trying to let you know all of the ramifications of what has been going on and what will happen in the future, if this goes through. MR. BREWER-Okay. MRS. BLEIBTREY-We don't want this business in our neighborhood. MR. BREWER-Okay. MR. BLEIBTREY-Now, if he's going to have a bed & breakfast up there, we want to be sure that there isn't any charters coming down through our yard. MRS. BLEIBTREY-I don't want it. MR. BLEIBTREY-I don't want it either, but he just said that they're going to grant it to them. MR. BREWER-I didn't say that. MR. BLEIBTREY-You said it's an allowable use, you've got to grant it to them. MR. BREWER-Sir, I did not say that we were going to allow that. I can only speak for myself. I can't speak for the other three people here. I said if it's an allowed use, and he meets all the criteria, we almost have to grant it to him. I didn't say we were going to grant it to him. I never said that. You're putting words in my mouth, and I don't like that. MR. BLEIBTREY-Well, that's the way it sounds. Well, I don't like the way you're talking to me either. MR. BREWER-Well, I'm sorry. MR. BLEIBTREY-You said if it's an allowable use, you haven't got any choice, or words to that effect. MR. BREWER-I said there's nothing we can do about it, is what I said. MR. BLEIBTREY-Right. MR. BREWER-I didn't say we were going to let him do it. MR. BLEIBTREY-If it has to be done, I want to be sure that there's no, there's not going to be business running through our yard, the charter business. It's all tied into the charter business. MR. MARTIN-The other controlling entity here is the Lake George Park Commission. He has a dock permit that permits his boat and - 15 - .- - one other boat, and for personal or residential use. There should be no commercial use of the dock. That's the other controlling agency. They have enforcement powers also. Just to let you know, it's another agency for you to. MR. BLEIBTREY-We're here. We've been to the Town before about the charter. He said all along, that's why I want you to read the, because all along he's been saying, well, these are friends of mine. I'm not charging them. I'm doing it for free. I'm just an angel. So, now, he's admitting he's been BSing us all along, which we've been telling the Town, but nobody would listen to us. They just listen to him. MRS. BLEIBTREY-Well, if you look at the previous requests for variances, you'll be able to see how the story has changed. MR. BREWER-Okay. We certainly will. MR. BLEIBTREY-You're going to check these out before you vote on this? MR. BREWER-If you have a copy of them, we'll look at them right now. MR. BLEIBTREY-We've got the numbers. We don't have the copies of the minutes here. MR. BREWER-Okay. MRS. BLEIBTREY-I have a copy of the notice of public hearing. I don't have a copy of the variance itself, the minutes from. MR. BLEIBTREY-The minutes are what have all the lies in it. MR. BREWER-Sir, we can't tell if they're lies or not. MR. BLEIBTREY-Well, because he's just changed his mind and admitted to what we've been saying all along. MR. BREWER-All right. MRS. BLEIBTREY-Here is the copy of violation from the Town of Queensbury. the order to remedy Do you want this? the MR. BREWER-If I could. MR. BLEIBTREY-Take a look at it, but we want to keep it. MRS. BLEIBTREY-This is from 1987, and this was what was sent to him, I believe, prior to that notice of violation. MR. MACEWAN-What's he in violation of? MRS. BLEIBTREY-Operating the business in a residential zone. MR. STARK-Running a fishing charter from a 10 42 zone, it says. That's the violation that's listed by Bert Martin. MRS. BLEIBTREY-Bert Martin. MR. BREWER-Okay. Is that it? MRS. BLEIBTREY-Clearly, we do not want the bed & breakfast. MR. BREWER-Okay. MR. BLEIBTREY-But we're hearing the one on the addition right now, right? MR. BREWER-Yes. - 16 - -- MR. BLEIBTREY-This is the addition. MR. BREWER-We're having a public hearing right now for the addition for a 14' by 16' addition. That's what we're doing right now. MRS. BLEIBTREY-Just the addition. MR. BREWER-Just the addition. MRS. BLEIBTREY-When are you going to do the bed & breakfast? MR. STARK-Right after this. MR. BREWER-Right after this one. MR. STARK-And have another public hearing and everything for that one. MR. BREWER-Yes. Is there anyone else that would care to speak? JANE CRANNELL MS. CRANNELL-I'm Jane Crannell. I live diagonally opposite Michael DiPalma, and have lived there since 1947. I know the size of Mike's house. I've been in it quite a few times. It looks like the house is big, because it has this large porch, L-shaped across the front and the side. However, that's only useful in the summer, and the actual home itself is an ordinary size living room, a kitchen, two bedrooms, and a bath. So, I think it's entirely reasonable thåt he wished to add another room, for whatever purpose, to his home. He needs more space, and as far as the neighborhood being affected, I don't expect that I'll even see the new room, and I look out from, I look out across Ridge Road. There are trees on my property. There's a great big gorgeous Balsam on Michael's property, which will be able to stay there, if this addition is added. I don't expect I'll even see the new addition. You're just talking about the room? MR. BREWER-Yes, ma'am. MS. CRANNELL-That's really all I have to say, then. MR. BREWER-Thank you very much. JANE PELTIER MRS. PELTIER-Hi. My name is Jane Peltier. I also am a neighbor of Michael's. I live diagonally on the other side of him, going towards 149. I have also been in Mike's house, and I agree with what Jane has said, the other neighbor. His house is big, it is not. It's mostly porch. I also have a right-of-way going down where there is a dock, where six of us, or five of us, have space for our boat. We use our boat. Our boat is there all the time. I use my right-of-way all the time, which is next to Mike's right- of-way and next to their house. When Mike has been down there, I do not hear him use any foul language. I have been there, on my boat, when he comes in. I don't see him throwing any garbage around. The only garbage I ever see around there is from the people that buy the little (lost word) Route 9 and fish there, and they leave their garbage there. I try to pick that up when we go out in our boat. I don't object at all. He has been a good neighbor. I have been there when he's had company on his boat, on my boat, and he hasn't been noisy. We try to keep ~ right-of-way clean, too, which you do, because you're using it. In fact, my husband has helped Mike. In fact, he offered to help Mike with the wood that we had from the old dock, and Don said, I will help you take it out, which, he has a pick-up. So when the weather's right, it will be gone for Mike. If you cut a tree down on your right-of- way, it's because you're trying to keep the property looking nice. It gets a little weedy down there, and you try to keep it nice, and - 17 - --- I don't object at all to him having the bed & breakfast, or the, because he's a good neighbor. By the way, with the spill, I'm on the same spill that he is, as far as the water goes. We all have filters. Anybody that's connected with that spill, New York State, have f i 1 ters in our house. The water is all fi I tered through charcoal and everything. That's good water, once it goes through the filter, and we have Male, comes in and checks at least, ours at least five times a year they come, and they change the filters. They have Culligan, the State contracted Culligan to come and put two charcoal filters there, and I think that's the same set up that he has. So the water that anybody turns on in the house is quite pure, okay. MR. BREWER-Okay. Thank you. MR. MACEWAN-Ma' am, one question for you. The right-of-way that you're using is the same right-of-way that he is using? MRS. PELTIER-No. My right-of-way is next to his. MR. MACEWAN-Is next to his? MRS. PELTIER-Is next to his. MR. MACEWAN-There are two right-of-ways side by side? Is that what it is? MRS. PELTIER-Apparently, right? Yes. Their house is here. Their property is here. Mike's right-of-way is here. His dock is here, and our dock is here, and this is our right-of-way going up the road. MR. MACEWAN-Okay. Thank you. MR. BREWER-Okay. Yes, ma'am. GRACE ELIZABETH HANNEFORD MRS. HANNEFORD-My name is Grace Elizabeth Hanneford. I lived on Hanneford Road since 1930. I have two right-of-ways, because I have two pieces of property, one I have my residence on. The other one is next to Mr. DiPalma, south of him, and I want to make sure that he doesn't park or put anything on my property. I've had to ask him to take off his trailer, his boat trailer, and I don't want him using that piece of property. It's on 9L, right next to, it's south of his house, and I have written a letter, too. Thank you. MR. BREWER-Okay. Thank you. Is there anyone else? ELSA KRAFT MRS. KRAFT-My name is Elsa Kraft, and I live approximately a mile from him. My only concern was the blind curve at the fork of the Pilot Knob Road. The traffic comes around there so fast that, more traffic coming in and out of a small parking area could be very dangerous. There are a lot of people that are walking and riding bicycles up and down that in the warm weather. Thank you. MR. BREWER-Okay. Thank you. John? JOHN SALVADORE MR. SALVADORE-My name is John Salvadore. I'm a resident of North Queensbury. With regard to the Class A Marina Permit, the Lake George Park Commission issues these, and there are various criteria for qualifying for them, one of them being adequate parking. The Park Commission is obligated, under their enabling legislation, to identify cumulative impacts. I wonder if this sort of thing is available from the Park Commission. What have they done to evaluate this? - 18 - '- MR. BREWER-This is a Class B, isn't it? MR. MARTIN-Yes. This is a Class B, and according to that designation, it needs one parking space for the additional vessel. MR. SALVADORE-I thought there was talk of a Class A Permit? MR. MARTIN-Well, he would need a Class A if the actual. MR. HARLICKER-If people at the house were to get on and off the boat at that dock, it would become a Class A Marina. MR. MARTIN-He has a Class B Permit right now, and that's for residential use, plus one extra boat. MR. SALVADORE-Okay, and the parking? MR. MARTIN-The parking under a Class B is one additional parking space for the additional vessel, in addition to his normal requirements under a dwelling. MR. SALVADORE-And you're satisfied that they meet that? MR. MARTIN-Yes. According to the way I see the parking schedule, it would be three or four, depending on how the rooms are rented out. If you have one room for rent, you need one space for the room for rent, plus two for the dwelling. That's the requirements of the Code. MR. BREWER-He's got a space, 39.9 feet wide. I can't tell how deep it is, and he agreed, earlier, to make it wider so that the cars could pull in and park different, so there would be room for three cars. MR. SALVADORE-So the requirements are additive? MR. BREWER-They're adequate. MR. SALVADORE-They're additive, the requirements? You've got a requirement for the boat. You've got a requirement for the B & B. They're additive. MR. BREWER-Yes. MR. SALVADORE-Okay. Has that been recognized? MR. MARTIN-Yes. You're saying they're cumulative. They have to be met for each use separately, is what you're asking? MR. SALVADORE-Yes. MR. MARTIN-Yes. MR. SALVADORE-Okay. With regard to the septic system, there was no evidence of failure. MR. MARTIN-Right. MR. SALVADORE-Was any kind of check made that we didn't have a home run to the wetland from the septic system? What is the criteria for a failure? MR. MARTIN-Failure, as I understand it, is determined by actual physical appearance of failure or odor, whether you actually have leachate coming up from the ground, or you have the presence of an odor. MR. SALVADORE-No dye check was made? MR. MARTIN-Yes, a dye check was done. - 19 - j .... ----- MR. SALVADORE-Was that from the dwelling to the septic tank? How was the dye? MR. HARLICKER-The water was run into the system at a rate of three gallons per minute for three hours, a total of 540 total gallons. As the water was added, dye was injected for the three hour period. The area around the septic system was inspected before, and at the end of this test period. There was no evidence of dye or sewage visible at any point on or near the property. The test was done on a day when the residence was vacant, but had been continuously occupied prior to testing. There was an above average amount of rainfall during the week before the test. MR. MARTIN-So it appears the dye was ran through the entire system. MR. SALVADORE-All right. Thank you. MR. STARK-Mr. Salvadore, how long have you lived up in your present location? MR. SALVADORE-Twenty-one years. MR. STARK-Okay, before 1984, do you know of a charter business being run out of this location? MR. SALVADORE-I have no idea. I've known in recent years he's done this. We've worked together. MR. BREWER-Okay. Is there anyone else who would like to speak? JOE ROULIER MR. ROULIER-My name's Joe Roulier. I just have a question regarding, when the zoning, the new zoning requirements were enacted, I know that there were various spots that were designated as commercial zones, in residential areas, for example, the Oneida Country Store, Cleverdale Store, and I was just wondering if there was any recognition of the Town at that time of a charter fishing business at that particular location? Because if there was a recognition of it then, it would prove that it was existing at the time, but if there was no recognition, or no provisions made at that particular time, then perhaps even the Town of Queensbury was not recognizing it, but I know that at the time they had recognized certain specific commercial enterprises that were operating within our area. MR. MARTIN-There would be notes from the committee that updated the master plan at that time. They went through and, like, inventoried the various uses throughout the Town, but even if that was acknowledged, it mayor may not have been included in the use schedule. For example, marinas are present in the Town, and they are, by design, left out. So it could have been acknowledged and still not included in the Ordinance. MR. ROULIER-Right. It just may be something that might be, for everyone's benefit, worthwhile checking into. That's all. Thank you. MR. BREWER-Okay. Thank you. Is there anyone else? I'll close the public hearing. PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED MR. HARLICKER-Maybe we should read the letters, before you close the public hearing. MR. BREWER-Yes. We can still close the public hearing and still do the letters, can't we? MR. HARLICKER-Okay. - 20 - "-- MR. MARTIN-Correspondence we'll call it. MR. HARLICKER-Yes. CORRESPONDENCE MR. HARLICKER-This one is from the Bleibtrey's, Charles and Margaret Bleibtrey, "This letter is regarding Michael DiPalma's Site Plan No. 59-93, and 1-94. We are the owners of the property through which Mr. DiPalma has a right-of-way for his own personal use. Instead of using this right-of-way for only this specific reason (personal use), Mr. DiPalma has used it to bring his customers for his illegal fishing charter business and his already operating illegal board and lodging business through our private property. We object to his application for an addition to his house (where his charter fishing customers board and lodge) and we object to his application to operate a bed and breakfast for the fOllowing reasons: 1. We are directly and negatively effected by Mr. DiPalma's customers wandering through and near our property at all hours. We do not want these strangers near our home, especially because of our young daughter. 2. Mr. DiPalma and his customers leave garbage near our home which we have to clean up. 3. Mr. DiPalma and his customers are excessively noisy at all hours. 4. Mr. DiPalma has subjected us and our daughter to obscene name-calling and has yelled profanities at us. 5. The bed and breakfast is tied in with Mr. DiPalma's illegal charter fishing business. He is already advertising fishing packages with lodging, breakfast and lunch included. See enclosed fishing information - 1994 brochure - page 4 - for his full page ad. 6. His charter fishing business and bed and breakfast are not appropriate for the residential character of this area, and should not be taking place in a single family residential area. 7. There is no provision for parking at his home. 8. Mr. DiPalma has already destroyed some of our property by cutting our trees down. 9. Mr. DiPalma has already had as many as three other charter fishing companies running charters out of our yard. We have only been trying to protect our home, our family, and our privacy. We are not looking for anything else except your help in protecting these things which we hold dear. Mr. DiPalma, on the other hand, is seeking a profit at the expense of his neighbors. Thank you for your consideration. Sincerely, Charles and Margaret Bleibtrey" There's one here from Margaret Bolen, "Dear Mr. Martin: Please let it be known at the 1/25/94 public hearing that we do not object to Mr. DiPalma's minor addition to his house. Sincerely, Margaret W. Bolen" This one is from Grace Elizabeth Hanneford, "Dear Members of the Board: I am against Michael DiPalma operating a bed and breakfast in his home on Route 9L. He does not have adequate parking. Does he have enough water for showers, flushing the toilet, etc.? Is his septic system large enough? If not, the over flow will run into the lake. I would like to know how Mr. DiPalma can advertise a package deal with bed, breakfast, and lunch and a fishing charter in a fishing magazine when he does not have permits for any of this. The fishing charter business is not allowed in this residential area. Mr. DiPalma knows this. I feel this bed and breakfast will cause more traffic, and does not belong in our residential area and will bring down the value of our property. Sincerely, Grace Elizabeth Hanneford" We have two letters here. They both say the same letter, different signatures. "As a resident of the Town of Queensbury on Hanneford Road, and a neighbor of the Bleibtrey's, I would like to inform you that I strongly object to Michael DiPalma's application to operate a Bed and Breakfast in my neighborhood and his application to put an addition on his house in which to operate this business. Mr. DiPalma has been continuously operating a fishing business out of his home and providing board and lodging for his customers in his home and the Town has done nothing to stop him. Why would you now go ahead and give him permission for something which will only increase his illegal operation? Why should our neighborhood suffer so that Mr. DiPalma can earn a good profit? His illegal activities and business in our neighborhood have to stop - why not stop him now? Our area is a - 21 - \ '-- single family home residential area. I want to keep it that way and keep Mr. DiPalma from totally destroying the residential character of our area. Mr. DiPalma's business is already destroying the peace of our neighborhood. The noise from his fishing charter-board and lodging customers is so loud at times that it disturbs me at all hours. Why can't the Town stop him? I strongly urge the Planning Board to deny Mr. DiPalma's request to build an addition and to operate a bed and breakfast." One letter is from Chlorina Nickel, and the same letter, another copy, is signed by Ernie Doin, and at the request of Mr. DiPalma, we pulled some letters from the Zoning file that he would like read into the minutes also. "Dear Mr. Martin: I have no obj ection to the addition my neighbor, Michael DiPalma, wishes to add to his home. The home looks spacious because of the full-length enclosed porch across the front. but the porch is only useful in warm weather, and the inside rooms are quite small. It's natural for him to want to expand a bit. I expect neighbors will hardly, because of plantings, be able to see his new extra room. Michael's house is his home, not a business building. He has been guiding since 1984. As I have read and observed during my 47 years in the Adirondacks, guiding is traditionally done from a person's home. Parties for fishing or hunting meet the guide there, and if necessary spend a night or two and have some meals. There is rarely more than one extra vehicle parked in Mr. DiPalma's driveway. I'm a close neighbor and I can't tell whether the people going to the dock with fishing gear are Mike's friends or his customers. There are only a few at a time. There's no more noise or activity than near any active fisherman's home and dock. Yours truly, Ms. Jane L. Crannell" This is from Ron Williamson, "I have known Mike DiPalma since he bought his house here in 1979. I know for a fact that he became a N.Y. State licensed Guide in 1984. Mike has provided room and board for his clients at is residence on Rt. 9L, and taken them fishing to various area rivers and streams. I cannot see how Mike DiPalma's 14' by 16' proposed addition to his house could negatively effect the community in any manner. Ron Williamson" This is from Gavin J. Rooney "Dear Sir: I have know Michael Di Palma since he was in high school. He worked for me for twenty six years s a police officer in New Jersey. I clearly remember when he received his fishing guide license in 1984 because he always wanted to arrange his days off and vacations around the times when fishing was the best in both Warren County rivers and Lake George since he was allowing his customers to stay at his house when he was taking them fishing. I also have seen people I recognized from New Jersey staying at his house who were paying to stay there and go fishing since 1984 because my wife and I owned a home on Cleverdale prior to buying our present home on Hanneford Road in 1987. As a neighbor I not only do not object to his planned addition, I think it will improve his property and therefore the neighborhood. Sincerely, Gavin J. Rooney" "Dear Sir: I am writing in regard to the variance the one Michael DiPalma is seeking! My husband Don Peltier and myself Jane Peltier approve of the variance Mr. DiPalma is seeking! We do not object to it! We have known Mike DiPalma since 1984 and have found him a very good neighbor. We also agree with him as he is trying to fix his home better! Thank you. Jane Peltier" And that was it for the letters. MR. BREWER-Okay. Mike, quickly, you wanted to respond. MR. O'CONNOR-Mr. Chairman, I think that you can tell by some of the strong feelings expressed that it's been a long ongoing feud, if you will, about use of a right-of-way and whether he's entitled to use it or not. That's an issue that I don't think really is before this Board as part of this application, particular the application for a 16' by 14', 224 foot addition to Mr. DiPalma's residence. Mr. DiPalma, perhaps, would like me to answer, sentence by sentence. the character assassination that has taken place. I'm not going to, because I'm not going to elevate what has been said to something of a level that needs response. Mr. DiPalma, I think, has held himself forth very well in his lifetime. He is a retired police officer out of New Jersey. I think he served some 20 odd - 22 - --- -. years with distinction with that police department. I don't know that he has any particular problem that would be any place, related to what seems to be referred to as going on here, prior to (lost word). There are a couple of issues that have been raised, and one is, does this have a negative effect upon the community, the 14' by 16' addition. I don't know anything that anybody has brought forth that we have not agreed to try to do to even mitigate what might be an impact of this particular one room. The one question came up is the turning of the vehicles or the parking of the vehicles, and getting on to the highway. We have no problem with stipulating that the parking be arranged so that the vehicles would be parked parallel to the highway, on the property, so that they would be able to turn around within the site and exit onto the property, as anybody would in a typical driveway. As to the question of tree cutting, we propose no tree cutting as part of this application, except we may have to, I understand, cut one tree in the front of the house to accommodate the parallel parking, or the parking that would go along side the house. As to the question of prior violations by Mr. DiPalma, I made a statement that, to my knowledge, Mr. DiPalma had not related to me any violations by the Town for past activities. There ~ a citation for violating, and as I understand it, the violation was dismissed when Mr. DiPalma appeared on it. That was in 1987. There was no finding of the violation by the Town at that time. There has been an ongoing close scrutiny of the activities of Mr. DiPalma by Queensbury based upon requests by Mr. Bleibtrey from time to time. He has had Mr. Hatin there a couple of times. He did have Mr. Martin there, but as we understand it, and we will present to the Board, I don't even know if that's relevant, particularly in view of the fact that in 1988, there was an amendment to the Zoning Ordinance which allowed bed and breakfasts on this property. I think the issue before the Board, when we get, and that's not even an issue. The first issue, on the first hearing, is the 14' by 16' addition in a Critically Environmental Sensitive area. Is this going to have a negative impact upon that area. MR. BREWER-Right. MR. O'CONNOR-If you look at your checklist, we're not even required to have an engineer's certificate as to the septic system. That is something that we did simply so we could put it aside and we wouldn't have a question. I think even staff was surprised when we submitted it, as to why we had submitted it. We didn't want an issue of it. I don't know what other impact we have. We went to the Beautification Committee and told them that we planned on no other Beautification than what was presently there. They said they'd been up to the property and it didn't look like it was going to make any appearance problem, and didn't have any problem with it. So you've got a one room addition going on in a house, and that's, what impacts do you have, or think that we have, that you're concerned with that we have not addressed. Maybe I'll submit a map which might give you some idea. Apparently, this is a part of a survey which shows you the right-of-way that runs to the lake, but again. MR. BREWER-Okay. Lets talk about that later. MR. 0' CONNOR-That's my point. The right-of-way to the dock and everything else we're not making part of the issue. MR. BREWER-Right. MR. O'CONNOR-Thank you. MR. BREWER-Thank you. All right. Lets do the SEQRA. RESOLUTION WHEN DETERMINATION OF NO SIGNIFICANCE IS MADE RESOLUTION NO. 59-93, Introduced by Craig MacEwan who moved for its adoption, seconded by Roger Ruel: - 23 - -- -/ WHEREAS, there application for: is presently before MICHAEL DIPALMA, and the Planning Board an WHEREAS, this Planning Board has determined that the proposed project and Planning Board action is subject to review under the State Environmental Quality Review Act, NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED: 1. No federal agency appears to be involved. 2. The fOllowing agencies are involved: NONE 3. The proposed action considered by this Board is unlisted in the Department of Environmental Conservation Regulations implementing the State Environmental Quality Review Act and the regulations of the Town of Queensbury. 4. An Environmental Assessment Form has been completed by the applicant 5. Having considered and thoroughly analyzed the relevant areas of environmental concern and having considered the criteria for determining whether a project has a significant environmental impact as the same is set forth in Section 617.11 of the Official Compilation of Codes, Rules and Regulations for the State of New York, this Board finds that the action about to be undertaken by this Board will have no significant environmental effect and the Chairman of the Planning Board is hereby authorized to execute and sign and file as may be necessary a statement of non-significance or a negative declaration that may be required by law. Duly adopted this 25th day of January, 1994, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Stark, Mr. Ruel, Mr. MacEwan, Mr. Brewer NOES: NONE MR. BREWER-Okay. Would somebody care to make amotion? If anybody's got any stipulations, lets get them out right now, before we. MR. RUEL-Well, I've got one. This is just for the addition? MR. BREWER-This is strictly for the addition. MR. RUEL-Okay. MOTION TO APPROVE SITE PLAN NO. 59-93 MICHAEL DIPALMA, Introduced by Roger Ruel who moved for its adoption, seconded by George Stark: Located at Route 9L, across from Williamsons' store. To build a 14' by 16' addition to a single family home. Whereas, the Town Planning Board is in receipt of site plan application file # 59-93 to construct a fourteen by sixteen (14 x 16) foot addition to an existing residence; and Whereas, the above mentioned site plan application consists of the fOllowing: 1. Sheet 1, plot plan, dated 11/17/93 2. Sheet Ai, elevations, dated 11/25/93 3. Sheet A2, elevations, dated 11/24/93 Whereas the above file is supported with the following documentation: 1. Staff notes, dated 1/25/94 2. Long EAF, dated 1/24/94 3. Letter from Michael O'Connor, dated 12/9/93 4. Beautification Committee comments, dated 1/10/94 5. Letter from Ray Buckley, dated 12/2/93; and Whereas, a public hearing was held on 1/25/94 concerning the above project¡ and Whereas, the Planning Board has determined that the proposal complies with the site plan review standards and requirements of - 24 - - -- Section 179-38 of the Code of the Town of Queensbury (Zoning). Whereas, the requirements of the State Environmental Quality Review Act have been considered; and Therefore, Let It Be Resolved, as follows: 1. The Town Planning Board, after considering the above, hereby move to approve site plan # 59-93. 2. The Zoning Administrator is hereby authorized to sign the above referenced plan. 3. The applicant shall present the above referenced site plan to the Zoning Administrator for his signature within 30 days of the date of this resolution. 4. The applicant agrees to the conditions set forth in this resolution. 5. The conditions shall be noted on the map. 6. The issuance of permits is conditioned on compliance and continued compliance with the Zoning Ordinance and site plan approval process. This motion should be predicated on legal determination of ZBA action, by our Attorney. Duly adopted this 25th day of January, 1994, by the following vote: MR. RUEL-I have one condition. The condition is expanding and/or revising the location of the driveway on the plot plan S-l, dated 11/17/93. MR. MACEWAN-I don't think that really would apply for the addition, because we're dealing with the addition. We're not dealing with the bed and breakfast. MR. BREWER-Here's the prepared resolution, Roger, Site Plan No. 59- 93. You can mark it approved, with the following conditions. MR. HARLICKER-There's one for each. MR. BREWER-There's one for each. MR. MACEWAN-Yes. house. We're just dealing with the addition to the MR. BREWER-I understand that, but there's probably one, they're all together there. MR. MACEWAN-Yes, but the point I'm making, driveway in for this addition to the house, should, the expansion of the driveway automobiles. he wants to add the and I don't think we to accommodate the MR. RUEL-Where would you pick the driveway up, in the bed and breakfast? MR. MACEWAN-Yes. That's what we were referring to it, the bed and breakfast operation, which we aren't really speaking to the issue right now. MR. BREWER-I don't think it really makes a difference either way, does it? MR. MARTIN-Well, backing out into the highway is illegal even from a residential. MR. MACEWAN-But it's a private residence right now. He's not being given an approval by us to do a bed and breakfast. MR. BREWER-Right. MR. MACEWAN-If he wants to put an addition on and his bed and breakfast gets shot down and he can't do it, why should he have to make the alterations to his driveway. MR. RUEL-All right. No conditions on the addition. MR. MACEWAN-Thank you. MR. BREWER-Now, wait a minute now. I've got to step back here and - 25 - - think about this. We've got to have some kind of condition about the variance. MR. MARTIN-That's the one thing that is concerned with this addition. MR. BREWER-This is contingent upon that variance being valid, in mY mind anyway. MR. HARLICKER-Yes. MR. O'CONNOR-Mr. Chairman, doesn't your approval fall if the variance falls? MR. BREWER-Well, I would feel safer if we had it in our motion. He's not going to cut trees down. MR. MARTIN-And I would call to the attention of the applicant, this requires submission of a site plan for stamping by the Zoning Administrator within 30 days. MR. BREWER-I'm going to ask you just one question. going to park on Hanneford's? You're not MR. O'CONNOR-You're still with the addition? MR. BREWER-Right. MR. O'CONNOR-Okay. MR. BREWER-So the only thing we have to work in there is about the variance. MR. MARTIN-And we should know that within the next week or two. MR. BREWER-So maybe this application shouldn't be decided until we get the answer for that, by you? MR. RUEL-So this motion should then be predicated on legal determination of ZBA action. MR. BREWER-Yes, by our attorney. MR. RUEL-That's the only condition. MR. BREWER-Okay. AYES: Mr. Ruel, Mr. MacEwan, Mr. Stark, Mr. Brewer NOES: NONE SITE PLAN NO. 1-94 TYPE I MICHAEL DIPALMA OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE ZONE: LC-42A, C.E.A. LOCATION: ROUTE 9L, ACROSS FROM WILLIAMSONS STORE. REQUEST IS TO OPERATE A BED AND BREAKFAST. SEQRA REVIEW: 1/25/94 BEAUTIFICATION COMMITTEE: 1/10/94 WARREN COUNTY PLANNING: 1/19/94 APA TAX MAP NO. 20-1-8 LOT SIZE: 1/2 ACRE SECTION: 179-13 D(3)(b)[15] MICHAEL O'CONNOR, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff, Site Plan No. 1-94, Michael DiPalma, Meeting Date: January 25, 1994 "PROJECT DESCRIPTION: The applicant is before the Board with two site plan applications, one is for a fourteen by sixteen foot (14 x 16) foot addition and the other is for a bed and breakfast. Both applications involve the same residence. The residence is located on Route 9L across the road from Williamsons store near the intersection with Hanneford Road. The property is zoned LC-42A and is approximately one-half (1/2) - 26 - >-- acre in size. It is not serviced by municipal water or sewer. The applicant operates a seasonal guide service out of the residence and occasionally has customers stay over night at the residence. PROJECT ANALYSIS: In accordance with Section 179-38 A., the project is in compliance with the other requirements of this chapter, including the dimensional regulations of the zoning district in which it is to be located. In accordance with Section 179-38 B., the project was reviewed in order to determine if it is in harmony with the general purpose or intent of this chapter, and it was found to be compatible with the zone in which it is to be located and should not be a burden on supporting public services. In accordance with Section 179-38 C., the proposal was reviewed regarding its impact on the highways. There was found to be no significant impact on the road system. In accordance with Section 179-38 D., the project was compared to the relevant factors outlined in Section 179-39. The project was compared to the following standards found in Section 179-38 E. of the Zoning Code: 1. The location, arrangement, size, design and general site compatibility of buildings, lighting and signs¡ The addition will be compatible with the existing structure and no new lighting is proposed. A small sign is proposed but it is not clear where it will go. 2. The adequacy and arrangement of vehicular traffic access and circulation, including intersections, road widths, pavement surfaces, dividers and traffic controls¡ Vehicular traffic access is adequate. Access to the site is via an eighteen (18) foot wide existing driveway. However, cars will have to back out onto Route 9L which is an undesirable situation. 3. The location, arrangement, appearance and sufficiency of off-street parking and loading¡ Off street parking is adequate. There is room for three (3) vehicles, one (1) in the garage and two (2) in the driveway. 4. The adequacy and arrangement of pedestrian traffic access and circulation walkway structures, control of intersections with vehicular traffic and overall pedestrian convenience¡ Pedestrian access is adequate. 5. The adequacy of stormwater drainage facilities¡ Stormwater drainage is adequate. 6. The adequacy of water supply and sewage disposal facilities¡ The applicant should provide additional information regarding water supply. The had tests done that indicate that the septic system is adequate. 7. The adequacy, type and arrangement of trees, shrubs and other suitable plantings, landscaping and screening constituting a visual andlor noise buffer between the applicant's and adjoining lands, including the maximum retention of existing vegetation and maintenance including replacement of dead plants¡ Landscaping access is adequate. 8. The adequacy of fire lanes and other emergency zones and the provision of fire hydrants¡ Emergency access is adequate. 9. The adequacy and impact of structures, roadways, and landscaping in areas with susceptibility to ponding, flooding andlor erosion. This is not an issue. RECOMMENDATION: Providing the water supply is adequate staff can recommend approval of the site plan for the addition and the bed & breakfast." MR. BREWER-Okay. I'm going to go open the public hearing right away, unless the applicant has anything they'd like to add. MR. O'CONNOR-Solely for the purpose of your record, Mr. Chairman, I'm Michael O'Connor, appearing for the applicant. I would ask that my comments on the last application for this applicant be read into this application, and I would stand on those comments. MR. BREWER-Okay. I'll open the public hearing. Is there anybody who'd like to comment on this? PUBLIC HEARING OPENED JANE CRANNELL MS. CRANNELL-I'm Jane Crannell. When Mike goes down to his dock, I can see him walk by, down Ridge Road. I can't tell whether they're friends of his or clients of his. There are very few - 27 - people. There are never any more than, I never see any more than maybe three or four other people with him. They're talking, and I can hear the talking in my house, but I can hear everybody's talking. I can hear Chuck down in his yard, and I can hear Mary Bleibtrey playing because that's the way the sound is, it comes up from the lake, up that grade and rise, and we can hear the conversation up on Hanneford Road, on those houses that are along the cliff. I use the dock that is adjacent to Michael's. The right-of-way for six of us families, lets see, there'd be Peltier, Williamson, Crannell, Schultz, and Hanneford. We commonly own the dock, the long skinny dock that's just south of Mike DiPalma's. So, I don't presently have a boat there, but I go down there for relaxation, observation, and do some nature drawing down there. I don't see any of this that Peg and Chuck see. I just don't see it. Sometimes their daughter Mary is playing down there. She's a friend of mine, and sometimes she and I will pick up any litter that's around. It's been traditional on Lake George, and many of us aren't too happy about it, but those of you that live there, know that if there is a dock, the public feels they have the right to take a fishing pole down there and fish on it, without permission. So we can't really govern what happens to trash and litter, although it's a pain. When I go down to the dock, I most generally bring a handful of stuff back up, and sometimes bring a board or two off that famous pile of stuff there, but I can't really see that it's any, what's happening there or will happen there or has happened there is any different than any resort area, where people use their docks carrying equipment, talk and laugh and have a good time using the water. Thanks. MR. BREWER-Thank you. MR. MACEWAN-Thank you. MR. BREWER-Next. GRACE HANNEFORD MRS. HANNEFORD-Grace Hanneford. I would like to comment about the noise coming up from the docks and into my house. One day I heard Mr. DiPalma using foul language down there, and I told Ms. Crannell that. So he has used it, and I don't like it. MR. BREWER-Okay. I think George has a question. MR. STARK-Mrs. Hanneford, if you don't mind, I'd like to ask, you've lived here for 63, 64 years now in your house. MRS. HANNEFORD-That's right. MR. STARK-Okay. Who lived in the house before Mr. DiPalma? MRS. HANNEFORD-Grants owned it, then there was the lady at the bank. She rented it. MR. STARK-Did anybody operate a charter business out of there? MRS. HANNEFORD-No. MR. STARK-Have you ever had any trouble with Mr. DiPalma, other than the one time he parked a trailer on your property? MRS. HANNEFORD-He's not the most pleasant person, I would say. MR. STARK-He's not pleasant to you? MRS. HANNEFORD-No. MR. STARK-Okay. Thank you. MR. BREWER-Okay. Is there anyone else who'd like to speak? - 28 - -- CHARLIE ADAMS MR. ADAMS-My name is Charlie Adams. I'm from Assembly Point. I have a question. It didn't pertain so much to the building, but it has to do with the potability of the water. You were talking earlier about the acceptable water and saying that the State approved a filtered system. It's my understanding that the State will not approve a system with a filter alone. That it has to have chlorine or ultraviolet or something else, and I only bring this up in terms of, if you were going to have a bed and breakfast, then you're going to be bringing in people outside. What we do on the Lake, Lake George, about drinking the water, if we want to filter it or that sort of thing, or drink it straight, that's another fine, what you do for yourself, but if you're going to bring in outsiders, now I may be wrong, but I looked into this with some care, a decade ago, and I found out that the State says that you have to have, I believe, have to have something beyond the filter to protect against the ecoli threat, whatever else is in the water. I don't know whether this has any bearing on it or not, but since you are going into a business and you're bringing outsiders in that don't necessarily know what the problems with the lake are, it might be, it may be that my recollection of the State's position is not the way I have stated. MR. BREWER-Okay, and I think my only answer to that is, possibly, Mr. Salvadore could answer. John, does the State come in and, if you're having boarders there, I presume they have to inspect it, don't they? JOHN SALVADORE MR. SALVADORE-Yes. Our water supply is classified a public water supply. We, however, pump our water from deep wells. We do not take water from the lake, and there is a little different criteria from. MR. ADAMS-No. I'm talking about surface water. MR. SALVADORE-Yes. We are not taking water from the surface. MR. BREWER-Okay. Thank you. Ma'am? JANE PELTIER MRS. PELTIER-I'm Jane Peltier. I basically want to just say, to save time, the same thing that Jane has said. The other thing is about the water, drinking water. Our drinking water is (lost words) right. New York State has taken over our drinking water. They're telling me, I have a letter at home that says my water is safe for anyone to drink, per New York State, because I wanted to know, so, I mean, I would imagine, if it's all right for, New York State is telling me it's all right for me and mY family to drink it, I'm sure it would be all right for someone else to drink it. It is filtered, charcoal filters are all done through New York State. We do not do this ourselves. They come, periodically, and change these. Male, C.T. Male, is that who it is? They come and check the water inside, outside, what they have to do, and if they don't do it, then we are, let New York State (lost words). As far as his business, we do have, we use our dock. We have a boat on there all summer long. We use our boat a lot when we are down there. We don't see any of this either. We have to get along with everyone, and Mike has been down there with, whether they're friends or whether they're customers, I don't really know. We talk to them and say hello. He presents no problem. I'm not saying Mike doesn't swear. I swear on occasion myself. So, I mean, you know, so I'm not saying that he's picture perfect and he walks around and he doesn't swear, because I imagine he has sworn down there. My husband will swear when he's fixing the dock or something, hell or damn or something, and I think most men have. So, I don't really see the consequence about it, and I don't object - 29 - -, to it at all, and as I said, of the six people there, we're the one that uses the dock the most. So we would see more of Mike and his customers than any of them do. MR. MACEWAN-How wide is your right-of-way? MRS. PELTIER-Mine? It's 16 foot. MR. MACEWAN-Thank you. MRS. PELTIER-You're welcome. MR. BREWER-Is there anyone else who'd like to comment? MARGARET BLEIBTREY MRS. BLEIBTREY-The difference between Ms. Crannell and Mrs. Peltier, their situation and mine is that I live there. They don't live right next to, in the middle of all this activity that's taking place. One of them lives on Hanneford Road, and one of them lives up on Route 9L. We're directly and negatively effected by this activity that results from Mr. DiPalma's business operation, fishing charter and board and lodging, which exists today. I just want to reiterate that if you approve a bed and breakfast in our single family residential area, you'll only be legitimizing what he's done, and you would be giving him reason to expand his business and cause us more problems, and I'll stand on all of my comments from the first hearing, the same as Mike O'Connor did. MR. BREWER-Thank you. MRS. BLEIBTREY-Thank you. MR. BREWER-Is there anyone else? CHUCK BLEIBTREY MR. BLEIBTREY-Chuck Bleibtrey. I would like to agree with Jane. It is true. You can't tell who's who, the people coming through there, friends or strangers, because there's no way to tell, since you've never seen them before. So, naturally, we are training our 10 year old girl to not talk to strangers, and to stay away from them. So it is very hard on us, and the neighborhood thing, to bring up a daughter, when you have constantly got these strangers around, that you don't know whether they're friends of somebody's or what they are. She's afraid to go out and play when these guys are around. and we don't want her out there alone when they're around because we don't know who they are, and this is going to be tied into that charter business, believe me, and he wants to put more boats in there. MR. STARK-How far is your residence from Mr. DiPalma's right-of- way? MR. BLEIBTREY-About 15 feet from my bedroom. MR. STARK-To your bedroom? MR. BLEIBTREY-Yes. MR. STARK-So your daughter plays in the side yard, or the back yard, or whoever? MR. BLEIBTREY-All over. We've got a deck on there that's 12' by 66'. She plays on the deck, which runs right up to the, when I say 15 feet, that's (lost word) and down by the water, it's hard to see through all the trees and stuff, which we never cut any extra trees down (lost word) the garbage that's down there, and you can't hear any boats coming in all the time. So you don't know when they're coming in, and like I said before, I guess the thing with the Park - 30 - '- Commission, it didn't matter to him before. There's been a guy there all summer that I have no idea who he is. As far as the ~haracter of the neighborhood, I think it's going to even destroy 1t more. We want to be able to let our kids go out and play. and we want the other girls to be able to come over and play with her and they don't want to do that with strange men around. EVerYbod~ is on this thing about staying away from strangers, and Janie Crannell put it quite plainly and correctly. You have no idea who they are, none whatsoever. I know they're not neighbors. Janie and all of the other people that use that other right-of-way, they're the greatest people in the world, but they're not down there with strangers all the time. MR. BREWER-Sir, suppose he didn't have a bed and breakfast, and he had friends over all the time, and they went down to the dock and fished, or whatever? What could we do about that? MR. BLEIBTREY-Well, if they were friends of his, you'd get to know them, but when you have an ad in a magazine, anybody in the Country can pick up that magazine and call up and say, I'm coming over. It could be John Wayne Gacy, and how's he going to know? MR. BREWER-I understand what you're saying, because I have a daughter myself, but, I mean. MR. BLEIBTREY-Part of the program here is, is it going to effect the neighborhood. It's going to very negatively effect the neighborhood, to encourage this kind of traffic through there. Anybody can call him up and stay in that house, anybody. He cannot refuse anybody, according to the law, the discrimination law. As far as garbage goes, besides having his whole entire old dock laying in our yard for nearly a year, here's a couple of pictures of garbage that he just throws on the dock when he leaves, and throws in the lake. I mean, I just am sick of picking up rubbish down there. There's other guys just hanging around on the dock, guys I don't know. So all the while they're down there hanging around, my daughter's stuck in the house, or I'm stuck watching her, or my wife, and the other girls, too. She has other girlfriends that come over that are the same age. It's going to have a negative effect on the neighborhood, and I'm asking you to deny it, and as far as whether he used to be a cop or not has no bearing on it. I could say I used to be a priest. It doesn't mean I'm not a child molester. MR. BREWER-Okay. Is there anyone else who'd like to comment? MR. BLEIBTREY-I would just like to ask you to deny it, for the sake of the neighborhood. It is going to have a negative impact on the neighborhood. MR. BREWER-Thank you very much. PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED MR. STARK-Mr. DiPalma, what are your hours of operation? Do you ever take people out real early in the morning fishing or real late at night fishing? MR. DIPALMA-Never real late at night. maybe quarter of seven in the morning. five. I like to fish myself. As early as seven o'clock, I've gotten up myself at MR. BLEIBTREY-Every time he brings charters through there, it wakes us up. MR. BREWER-Okay. Mike, do you have any comments to any of the comments that were made? MR. O'CONNOR-The only comment I'd make is, again, we seem to be way out in right field. If I look at the Ordinance that we operate - 31 - - under, I try to find the standards on which this Board should jUdge a permitted use, which is a bed and breakfast in an LC-42 Acre zone. I don't know what concern you would have that we haven't addressed. Apparently, the neighbors have a problem with anybody being in that neighborhood. MR. BLEIBTREY-Not anybody. The neighbors are great people. It's the strangers. MR. O'CONNOR-If they bought the property, they would have realized that their property is subject to these right-of-ways. As I understand, there was once a dispute as to these right-of-ways, even, but clearly Mr. DiPalma has a deeded right-of-way, and that's causing a lot of the concerns. There's six other families that appear in the immediate adjacent right-of-way, and there's a lot of activity that goes back and forth, and that's been a source of, apparently, some misgiving. Basically, this bed and breakfast operation is no different, I think, than any other bed and breakfast operation that I've ever heard of or seen. You had one other that I'm aware of, on Ridge Road. I don't know what other formal applications you've had within the Town. MR. HARLICKER-There was one for the old grange hall. MR. BREWER-We had one on 9L. remember. That's the only other one I can MR. MARTIN-Yes, that was in last year. MR. O'CONNOR-We, as part of our application, are not asking this Board to condone the operation of a charter business from the dock. We stipulate to that, and we understand that what we're talking about is permission to allow people to stay over at this premises and have breakfast, enjoy the premises, as people normally would enjoy the premises, as a bed and breakfast. I think we've tried, in recent past, to be very careful to separate the charter operation from this activity. I don't know what other concerns you have. Parking, I think we've addressed, and we're willing to address it. The water, I don't know the problem with the water. Mr. DiPalma doesn't know the problem with the water. MR. BREWER-I think if he is licensed for a bed and breakfast, I think the State may, I don't know. MR. O'CONNOR-I don't know if the Department of Health requires an inspection. If they do, we're going to have to abide by it. MR. BREWER-Right. MR. O'CONNOR-If you want to condition it upon us getting a clean water check, I don't have a problem with anything, but that's not the typical, you usually get a one liner from the Queensbury Water Department for $15, if your water's good, that says the water's potable. It's much easier. This is a very scientific test. MR. BREWER-Okay. happy. Maybe we can do that, just to keep everybody MR. O'CONNOR-We don't have a problem with that, and I would suggest this, that if we don't, we be charged with having alternative drinking water on premises. Again, that may be something that's not within the jurisdiction of the Board. It may be Department of Health. The testing of this well is not for echoli. It's for the chemical spills. It may make a difference in the filter systems. MR. MACEWAN-Just one quick question. way? How wide is your right-of- MR. DIPALMA-Ten feet wide from my house to the lake. Now the lake is 20 by 30. - 32 - ~ MR. MACEWAN-And the lake is 20 by 30, and yours is next to the lady who has a 16 foot right-of-way. MR. O'CONNOR-I have a survey map. MR. MACEWAN-No, that's okay. MR. RUEL-Are we going to do the SEQRA? MR. MACEWAN-Yes. Ready? MR. BREWER-Yes. RESOLUTION WHEN DETERMINATION OF NO SIGNIFICANCE IS MADE RESOLUTION NO. 1-94, Introduced by Craig MacEwan who moved for its adoption, seconded by Roger Ruel: WHEREAS, there application for: is presently before MICHAEL DIPALMA, and the Planning Board an WHEREAS, this Planning Board has determined that the proposed project and Planning Board action is subject to review under the State Environmental Quality Review Act, NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED: 1. No federal agency appears to be involved. 2. The fOllowing agencies are involved: NONE 3. The proposed action considered by this Board is unlisted in the Department of Environmental Conservation Regulations implementing the State Environmental Quality Review Act and the regulations of the Town of Queensbury. 4. An Environmental Assessment Form has been completed by the applicant. 5. Having considered and thoroughly analyzed the relevant areas of environmental concern and having considered the criteria for determining whether a project has a significant environmental impact as the same is set forth in Section 617.11 of the Official Compilation of Codes, Rules and Regulations for the State of New York, this Board finds that the action about to be undertaken by this Board will have no significant environmental effect and the Chairman of the Planning Board is hereby authorized to execute and sign and file as may be necessary a statement of non-significance or a negative declaration that may be required by law. Duly adopted this 25th day of January, 1994, by the following vote: MR. HARLICKER-Could we get some clarification on the "small to moderate impact" as relates to Growth and Character of the Community or Neighborhood? You said it had a small to moderate impact, but you didn't elaborate what the impact was. MR. BREWER-Character, possibly. MR. MARTIN-It's the last page, Tim, Number 18, if you go down through the. MR. BREWER-I would say Other Impacts, possibly more traffic, creating more, rather than just a residence, he's going to have two bedrooms there, that he's going to rent out. Maybe in the density of the land use. Is that appropriate or not? - 33 - -, -- MR. MARTIN-It's your, depending on how you see it. MR. BREWER-The proposed action will cause a change in the density of the land use, small to moderate. He's changing it from one to possibly three or four. Is there any limitation as to how many people he can have stay in there? Granted, he's got two bedrooms, but it could be a family of four. It could be a family of two. It could be a family of five. MR. 0' CONNOR-There's some qualifications in the Ordinance, if that's what your question. MR. BREWER-That's what I'm questioning. MR. BREWER-I'm trying to figure out whether or not there is a square footage requirement. MR. MACEWAN-I think when we dealt with the one in the Grange Hall, over on 9L, that had to do with the amount of bathrooms that he had, as to the limitation of what he could do. MR. MARTIN-The bed and breakfast facility is defined as a stay of a maximum of one week. I know we're going to be taking up with the Town Board a change to the Ordinance regarding bed and breakfast, to classify them, and there's industry accepted standards, so to speak, for what constitutes, like, a country inn, or, a bed and breakfast, of the most minor facility, is four bedrooms or less. MR. BREWER-I understand that, but I'm saying, quantity of people. MR. MARTIN-Usually that's dictated by the number of bedrooms. MR. BREWER-But if he had a two bedroom facility, and my wife and myself and my daughter went there, that's three, and if he had another family of three, that's six people. If he had two families of four, that's eight. I mean, he could have, potentially, many people there. MR. MARTIN-All I can say in response is it's usually dictated by the number of bedrooms, the sleeping facilities. That's the guide by which anything I've seen measures the size of a bed and breakfast. JOHN SALVADORE MR. SALVADORE-The Health Department issues a temporary occupancy permit. MR. BREWER-Of maximum occupancy. MR. SALVADORE-It kicks in with 10 guests. If you have less than 10 guests, you're not required to get a temporary residency permit. MR. BREWER-I guess what I'm saying to you is, if he has 12, and he doesn't tell the State, how is the State going to know, and I'm not saying he's going to do that. I'm just saying it potentially could happen. MR. 0' CONNOR-It's typical anything. There are all requirements. to spot check as an kinds of things out enforcement there that of are MR. BREWER-The Fire Marshall would go there and. MR. O'CONNOR-They come in and find you in violation, they find you in violation. MR. BREWER-So like in our store, the Fire Marshall comes in and says, no more than, well, like even this room, no more than 50 people, or whatever. I don't know how many it is in here, but. - 34 - ~ MR. O'CONNOR-It's 300 in here. don't know your answer. It's 300 maximum capacity, but I MR. BREWER-Maybe we could find that out, Jim? Maybe Kip Grant could fill us in on that, just for our own information, that's all. MR. MARTIN-Yes. I think it qualifies as what is defined as an area of public assembly, first of all, and I don't even know if this would qualify for that. MR. BREWER-Okay. AYES: Mr. MacEwan, Mr. Stark, Mr. Ruel, Mr. Brewer NOES: NONE MR. BREWER-Okay. Now we need a motion. MOTION TO APPROVE SITE PLAN NO. 1-94 MICHAEL DIPALMA, Introduced by Roger Ruel who moved for its adoption, seconded by Craig MacEwan: To operate a bed and breakfast at that location. Whereas, the Town Planning Board is in receipt of site plan application file # 1-94 to utilize an existing residence as a bed & breakfast; and Whereas the above mentioned site plan application consists of the following: 1. Sheet 1, plot plan, dated 11/17/93 2. Sheet Ai elevations, dated 11/25/93 3. Sheet A2 elevations, dated 11/24/93 Whereas, the above file is supported with the fOllowing documentation: 1. Staff notes, dated 1/25/94 2. Long EAF, dated 1/24/94 3. Beautification Committee comments, dated 1/10/94 4. Letter from Ray Buckley, dated 12/2/93; and Whereas, a public hearing was held on 1/25/94 concerning the above project; and Whereas, the Planning Board has determined that the proposal complies with the site plan review standards and requirements of Section 179-38 of the Code of the Town of Queensbury (Zoning); and Whereas the Planning Board has considered the environmental factors found in Section 179-39 of the Code of the Town of Queensbury (Zoning) . Whereas, the requirements of the State Environmental Quality Review Act have been considered¡ and Therefore, Let It Be Resolved, as follows: 1. The Town Planning Board, after considering the above, hereby move to approve site plan # 1-94. 2. The Zoning Administrator is hereby authorized to sign the above referenced plan. 3. The applicant shall present the above referenced site plan to the Zoning Administrator for his signature within 30 days of the date of this resolution. 4. The applicant agrees to the conditions set forth in this resolution. 5. The conditions shall be noted on the map. 6. The issuance of permits is conditioned on compliance and continued compliance with the Zoning Ordinance and site plan approval process. Conditions being increase the size of the parking area shown on the site plan, Sl. Cars can park parallel to Route 9L. That the debris associated with the dock, remanents of the old dock, be removed, by May 1st, 1994. Duly adopted this 25th day of January, 1994, by the following vote: MR. BREWER-And I would ask one other condition. This gentleman has a problem with the debris on his dock, and if it's from your dock, it's not from your dock? MR. DIPALMA-There are some posts, and some old pipes that were taken off, on my dock (lost words). MR. BREWER-It was on your dock. MR. DIPALMA-On my dock. MR. BREWER-Okay. you remove that. I'm going to ask that a condition be made that - 35 - "-- , ---," MR. DIPALMA-Absolutely. We were going to get it out. MR. BREWER-I'm going to say June 1st. MR. DIPALMA-Sure. MR. BREWER-Or May. about it. I don't care, whatever everybody else feels MR. MARTIN-May 1st. MR. BREWER-That's another condition I'd like, for that to be removed by May 1st, that debris. MR. MARTIN-The debris associated with the dock. MR. BREWER-Yes. MR. MARTIN-Remanents of an old dock, right? Okay, by May 1st. MR. BREWER-By May 1st, 1994. MR. O'CONNOR-If you want to put a date on the filing of the amended site plan, showing the parking area. MR. MACEWAN-You've got to have it in 30 days. MR. O'CONNOR-Okay. MR. MARTIN-And that's true of both these site plans. One site plan will be sufficient for both actions tonight. MR. O'CONNOR-Okay. AYES: Mr. Stark, Mr. Ruel, Mr. MacEwan, Mr. Brewer NOES: NONE MR. BREWER-Next is the SEQRA Review for the Harris Bay Yacht Club. Is this going to be a long discussion? We're going to do a SEQRA Review. We're not going to have a public hearing tonight. We're just going to a SEQRA Review. Would you mind if we got these two other quick items out of the way, and then we don't have to make these people wait? Okay. Lets do that. Lets do Cavanaugh first, and then we'll do Garden Time. Then we'll come back. Lets do Cavanaugh first. MR. STARK-Okay. NEW BUSINESS: SITE PLAN NO. 2-94 TYPE: UNLISTED ESTHER CAVANAUGH OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE ZONE: MR-5 LOCATION: RHODE ISLAND AVENUE PROPOSAL IS TO CONVERT VACANT SECOND FLOOR TO APARTMENT. TAX MAP NO. 128-9- 31.1 LOT SIZE: 10,560 SQ. FT. SECTION 179-18 D(l) ESTHER CAVANAUGH, PRESENT¡ DEBRA SAWN, PRESENT STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff, Site Plan No. 2-94, Esther Cavanaugh, Meeting Date: January 25, 1994, "PROJECT DESCRIPTION: The applicant is proposing to convert the upstairs of an existing single family house into an apartment. The property is zoned MR-5 and is located on Rhode Island Avenue; it is serviced by municipal water and an on-site septic system. PROJECT ANALYSIS: In accordance with Section 179-38 A., the project is in compliance with the other requirements of this chapter, including the dimensional regulations of the zoning district in which it is to be located. In accordance with Section 179-38 B., the project was reviewed in order to - 36 - ---"--'--~--- '- --./ determine if it is in harmony with the general purpose or intent of this chapter, and it was found to be compatible with the zone in which it is to be located and should not be a burden on supporting public services. In accordance with Section 179-38 C., the proposal was reviewed regarding its impact on the highways. There was found to be no significant impact on the road system. In accordance with Section 179-38 D., the project was compared to the relevant factors outlined in Section 179-39. The project was compared to the following standards found in Section 179-38 E. of the Zoning Code: 1. The location, arrangement, size, design and general site compatibility of buildings, lighting and signs; No exterior alterations are proposed. No new signage or lighting is proposed. 2. The adequacy and arrangement of vehicular traffic access and circulation, including intersections, road widths, pavement surfaces, dividers and traffic controls; Vehicular traffic access is adequate; 3. The location, arrangement, appearance and sufficiency of off-street parking and loading; Parking is sufficient. 4. The adequacy and arrangement of pedestrian traffic access and circulation walkway structures, control of intersections with vehicular traffic and overall pedestrian convenience; Pedestrian access is adequate. 5. The adequacy of stormwater drainage facilities; Stormwater drainage is adequate. 6. The adequacy of water supply and sewage disposal facilities; Water supply is adequate and there is currently a one thousand five hundred (1,500) gallon septic system which should be adequate for four (4) bedrooms. 7. The adequacy, type and arrangement of trees, shrubs and other suitable plantings, landscaping and screening constituting a visual andlor noise buffer between the applicant's and adjoining lands, including the maximum retention of existing vegetation and maintenence including replacement of dead plants; This is not an issue. 8.· The adequacy of fire lanes and other emergency zones and the provision of fire hydrants; Emergency access is adequate. 9. The adequacy and impact of structures. roadways, and landscaping in areas with susceptibility to ponding, flooding andlor erosion; This is not an issue. RECOMMENDATION: Staff can recommend approval of this application." MR. BREWER-Do you have any comments, ma'am? MRS. CAVANAUGH-No, I don't. MR. BREWER-Does anybody on the Board have any comments? MR. MACEWAN-I have a question. apartment located? Where is the entrance to the MRS. CAVANAUGH-The existing front of my house, right now, I have a front door, and at the end of the house, that's where that entrance to my upstairs will be. MR. MACEWAN-So it will have a separate entrance? MRS. CAVANAUGH-Yes, there will be a separate entrance. MR. MACEWAN-And the entrance comes into, what, the kitchen area to the apartment? MRS. CAVANAUGH-It would be going up into the front room of the apartment. It would be on the north side of the house. MR. MACEWAN-Okay. Thank you. MR. RUEL-Just for my information, what's a "non use" room? MS. SAWN-Okay, the way that the peak comes down from, the way the peak comes down, it's just going to be, there's going to be nothing back there. MR. RUEL-Yes, it's not high enough. You'll have the same pitch in - 37 - '--- .../ the back as in the front? MS. SAWN-We're gOing to have to raise the pitch in the back about four and a half feet, to be able to put a window in the kitchen, and it'll only be the kitchen area. I'm Debra Sawn. I'm her daughter. MR. RUEL-You're going to live downstairs? MS. SAWN-Right. MR. RUEL-And you're going to send your mother upstairs. MS. SAWN-She wanted it that way. MRS. CAVANAUGH-I wanted it upstairs. I didn't want anybody over my head. I don't want anybody over me. MR. RUEL-Is this a bedroom, six by twenty? MS. SAWN-Yes, that would be a bedroom in the front of the house. MRS. CAVANAUGH-Yes, that would be my son's. That's right in the front of the house. MR. RUEL-And the stairs, I can't read this, but these are the stairs over here? MS. SAWN-That would be when you come downstairs from the inside. There would be an inside entrance and an outside entrance. MR. RUEL-And the exterior of this addition will conform with the rest of the structure, right? MS. SAWN-Correct. MR. BREWER-This has to be all built inside, or? MRS. CAVANAUGH-Yes. DES is doing the construction. MR. BREWER-And it has to be inspected anyway? MR. HARLICKER-Yes. MR. MARTIN-Yes, it has to be. MR. RUEL-Yes. Kitchen and bathroom, the works. MRS. CAVANAUGH-It's going to be all electrical. Everything's going to be electrical. MR. RUEL-NiMo will like that. MR. BREWER-Okay, and we've got to do a Short Form? MR. HARLICKER-Yes. MR. BREWER-We've got to have a public hearing, right? I'll open the public hearing. Is there anyone here that would like to comment on this? PUBLIC HEARING OPENED NO COMMENT PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED MR. RUEL-Short Form. RESOLUTION WHEN DETERMINATION OF NO SIGNIFICANCE IS MADE - 38 - -' RESOLUTION NO. 2-94, Introduced by Craig MacEwan who moved for its adoption, seconded by Roger Ruel: WHEREAS, there application for: is presently before the ESTHER CAVANAUGH, and Planning Board an WHEREAS, this Planning Board has determined that the proposed project and Planning Board action is subject to review under the State Environmental Quality Review Act, NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED: 1. No federal agency appears to be involved. 2. The following agencies are involved: NONE 3. The proposed action considered by this Board is unlisted in the Department of Environmental Conservation Regulations implementing the State Environmental Quality Review Act and the regulations of the Town of Queensbury. 4. An Environmental Assessment Form has been completed by the applicant. 5. Having considered and thoroughly analyzed the relevant areas of environmental concern and having considered the criteria for determining whether a project has a significant impact as the same is set forth in Section 617.11 of the Official Compilation of Codes, Rules and Regulations for the State of New York, this Board finds that the action about to be undertaken by this Board will have no significant effect and the Chairman of the Planning Board is hereby authorized to execute and sign and file as may be necessary a statement of non-significance or a negative declaration that may be required by law. Duly adopted this 25th day of January, 1994, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Ruel, Mr. MacEwan, Mr. Stark, Mr. Brewer NOES: NONE MR. BREWER-Okay. Do we have a motion? MOTION TO APPROVE SITE PLAN NO. 2-94 by Roger Ruel who moved for its MacEwan: ESTHER CAVANAUGH, Introduced adoption, seconded by Craig Located at Rhode Island Avenue. To convert a vacant second floor to an apartment. Whereas, the Town Planning Board is in receipt of site plan application # 2-94 to convert the upstairs of an existing single family house to an apartment ¡ and Whereas, the above mentioned site plan application dated 12/29/93 consists of the following: 1. Sheet 1, site plan, undated 2. Sheet 2, upstairs floor plan, undated 3. Sheet 3, south elevation, undated¡ and Whereas, the above file is supported with the following documentation: 1. Staff notes, dated 1/25/94 2. Short EAF, dated 12/29/93 Whereas, a public hearing was held on 1/25/94 concerning the above project¡ and Whereas, the Planning Board has determined that the proposal complies with the site plan review standards and requirements of Section 179-38 of the Code of the Town of Queensbury (Zoning)¡ and Whereas, the Planning Board has considered the environmental factors found in Section 179-39 of the Code of the Town of Queensbury (Zoning). Whereas, the requirements of the State Environmental Quality Review Act have been considered¡ and Therefore, Let It Be Resolved, as follows: 1. The Town Planning Board, after considering the above, hereby move to approve - 39 - -' -" site plan # 2-94. 2. The Zoning Administrator is hereby authorized to sign the above referenced plan. 3. The applicant shall present the above referenced site plan to the Zoning Administrator for his signature within 30 days of the date of this resolution. 4. The applicant agrees to the conditions set forth in this resolution. 5. The conditions shall be noted on the map. 6. The issuance of permits is conditioned on compliance and continued compliance with the Zoning Ordinance and site plan approval process. Duly adopted this 25th day of January, 1994, by the fOllowing vote: AYES: Mr. MacEwan, Mr. Stark, Mr. Ruel, Mr. Brewer NOES: NONE MR. MACEWAN-Schermerhorn didn't get his variance? MR. MARTIN-He withdrew. MR. STARK-Okay. SITE PLAN NO. 3-94 TYPE: UNLISTED GARDEN TIME, INC. OWNER: EARLTOWN CORP. ZONE: HC-1A LOCATION: OPPOSITE GARDEN TIME ON EAST QUAKER SERVICE ROAD. PROPOSED USE IS FOR DISPLAY AREA AND RETAIL SALES FOR OUTBUILDINGS. BEAUTIFICATION COMH.: 1/10/94 WARREN COUNTY PLANNING: 1/19/94 TAX MAP NO. 110-1-2.62 LOT SIZE: 0.16 ACRES SECTION: 179-23 D(l) FRED TROELSTRA, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT MR. MARTIN-Well, see, there's an initial issue, here, maybe we want to address right away. The buildings are shown to be sited on the Earltown property, and there's also a question as to the buildings actually being positioned on the County right-of-way as well. There seems to be some problem getting Earltown to sign off on this as allowing this to occur, but I believe, the applicant indicates he's got a signed agreement with Earltown to have these buildings sited there, but Earltown's concern, I think they have, I've read a letter from the attorney representing Earltown, to Mr. Troelstra. They're introducing language like this is a change of use and they're worried that approval of this site plan is going to commit them to a certain use of this property. They'll be bound to it, and I've tried to tell them that that's not the case. They can file for a site plan review with this Board, should a new use for that site come along. They're looking to sell the property, obviously. I'm trying to get, I've talked to Mr. DeSantis, who's the Counsel for Earltown, directly in my office. I've explained to him that, you know, this does not tie them down. They can certainly come in for a site plan, should a change of use occur for that site, and he was going to go back to the powers that be at Earltown and explain this, but I have not heard back from him, and I think Mr. Troelstra will speak to the fact that you talked to Mr. Macri today, who is a principal with Earltown. I'll let you take it from here. MR. TROELSTRA-I'm Fred Troelstra. Just to make a point of clarification, the proposed use is for display and retail sales of outbuildings. I'd like to correct. It's proposed use is for the overflow stock of our buildings from the retail side of Quaker Road to the vacant side of Quaker Road there. It's not intended for retail sales. It's just there for the holding area of those buildings, and unloading of those buildings in that vicinity. I did speak with Victor Macri today, of late, and a point of clarification there. He had just spoken with Frank DeSantis, the attorney for Earltown, and in recollection of that, Jim, he did say, Vic Macri had mentioned that the Board has mentioned they don't want any involvement with this process, in terms of a change of use. It appears that they need further clarification on what this review process is, and we attempted to do that seven to ten - 40 - '-' ~" days ago, and with lack of communication, I guess. MR. MARTIN-Yes. I've spoken to him, and he hasn't gotten back to me, and I don't know what the. MR. BREWER-We can't act, give them any kind of approval, until the agent. MR. MARTIN-Well, no, they're the property owner, in this case. MR. BREWER-Right. I mean, they have to give them a right to be the agent, don't they? MR. MARTIN-Yes, and that's the first concern, is if the property owner is on Board with this, and I don't know that that's been, it's sort of. MR. TROELSTRA-The intent, here, was, obviously, good faith. We do an exchange of services with Earltown in this particular case. We maintain that facility is. Not, like the County would, by mowing a couple of swaths each side of the road. We've maintained that facility to be, in terms of aesthetics, much more aesthetic than what the County would do. We mow that entire median. HR. BREWER-I can appreciate that. MR. TROELSTRA-In terms of what Earltown is desiring, or lack of, they would rather not be involved with any of this process, at this point, to jeopardize or bound themselves to. MR. BREWER-But you have to understand, they have to be involved, because they own the property, and as one Board member speaking, I will not vote yes for this until they ~ involved. MR. TROELSTRA-To what capacity? MR. BREWER-In any capacity. authorization to be an agent. I mean, they have to give you MR. TROELSTRA-They would be desirous of further review than of what that would need to include. MR. BREWER-It simply just says that you are their agent, and you're bound by this site plan. MR. TROELSTRA-They don't want to forego anything, in terms of, for me to have powers that would change the status of that particular property. MR. BREWER-Probably all it would do is, if you drew up some kind of contract, it would give you the opportunity to put your buildings on their property. MR. MARTIN-The way I view this, and I can't speak for Earltown, but this is an interim use of this site. This is obviously being marketed as commercial property, and I think I even recall Wood Carte being approved at one point to build a store on one of these lots, and it just never came to fruition, obviously, but it does not tie them into any use of this site on a permanent basis. MR. BREWER-It doesn't give them the power to do anything with that property you want. If you want to put up another building over there, or another store or something, you can't do that. MR. TROELSTRA-Correct. MR. BREWER-If you draw up the right language. It just gives them, in other words, we can't allow you to go put something on somebody else's property. - 41 - "--' --""~ MR. MARTIN-Without their permission. MR. BREWER-Without their permission. Exactly. MR. STARK-Tim, if Mr. Troelstra got an agreement, you know, or signed thing, agreement, just saying that you're acting as their agent for this site plan review, and maybe we could put him back on Thursday then. MR. MARTIN-Yes. See, I don't want this to be blown out of proportion, but nonetheless, it is a fundamental. MR. TROELSTRA-They won't have it by Thursday, unless you have some other abilities to get it than I do. MR. MARTIN-I'll make an attempt to call Frank again. I'll do everything I can. I mean, I don't want this to be a real burdensome thing, but nonetheless, it has to be there. If the Board wants, you can table until Thursday, and I'll make every attempt to contact them over the next 48 hours. MR. BREWER-I mean, it's just illegal for us to do it. I mean, we don't have a right to do that. That would be like me coming here and saying, well, gee, Garden Time's got a little land up there. I'd like to put a garden in up there, or a fruit stand or something and coming here and asking these people if I can do it, and they say, okay. How would YOU feel about it? MR. TROELSTRA-Well, obviously, not too keen, but we've had, I've got a written agreement. MR. BREWER-I'm not saying that's the case, Fred, but I'm just saying that could happen. MR. STARK-So all he needs is a letter just saying that he should act as their agent in this site plan review. MR. BREWER-Yes. There's a space on our application for him to ask them for. You could fax it to them or whatever. MR. STARK-Authorization to Act as an Agent. MR. MARTIN-We have that form. If they will sign that, that would be sufficient. It's just signing off. It's a short statement that gives you power to represent the applicant. MR. HARLICKER-In this specific application. MR. STARK-You're familiar with this form right here. Just get them to sign that. MR. BREWER-And then that just gives you the opportunity to come in here and get on with your business. MR. MARTIN-Can you get that signed by Thursday? MR. TROELSTRA-With clarification of what that means. that form to Victor Macri, and then he passed it DeSantis, and they declined to sign. I presented on to Frank MR. STARK-They declined to sign? MR. BREWER-All it simply does is give you permission to put the buildings on the, have Vic DeSantis draw up a simple contract, the only thing that you can do is put your bUildings on it. MR. TROELSTRA-Tim, it's not that simple. MR. STARK-Why wouldn't he sign it? - 42 - ~. MR. TROELSTRA-Because they feel that, they've got a nice, neat package over there. They don't want to make any waves with small requests to put some buildings over there. MR. STARK-But yet you're maintaining their property? MR. TROELSTRA-Correct. MR. STARK-I mean, even behind Broad Street down there? MR. TROELSTRA-Right. MR. RUEL-Are you presently using that property for storage? MR. BREWER-Yes. The buildings are there now. MR. TROELSTRA-Yes. There's a few bUildings. MR. STARK-They put their overflow over there. MR. RUEL-How long have you been doing that? MR. TROELSTRA-Since June, July time frame, and we had the agreement first before we put the buildings there. MR. MACEWAN-This letter that you did to them. did they agree to it? MR. TROELSTRA-They signed it. Don Ayles, from Earltown. Correct. There's a response from MR. MACEWAN-Why acting as agent? to agree to that. incorporated into can't that agreement be incorporated into him That's all we want you to do, because they have This same information in this letter needs to be the application. MR. TROELSTRA-How would you propose to do that? MR. MACEWAN-I would just attach that letter to it. Why can't he do that, as outlined in the letter. MR. TROELSTRA-According to Vic Macri, that's the only means of communication that he would rather be dealing with is those letters. He went in front of the Board, Don Ayles did, on the request for us to do an exchange of service. MR. MACEWAN-In front of what Board? MR. TROELSTRA-Earltown's Board, the Board of (lost word). MR. MACEWAN-Okay. MR. TROELSTRA-So, in so doing, they've given me the opportunity to put our buildings on that facility, and I guess. MR. MARTIN-What's that letter say? MR. MACEWAN-It just says, his letter to them says, in exchange for the use of approximately 7,000 square feet of land bordering the East Quaker Road Service Road, Garden Time, Inc. will maintain, mow, the following Earl town properties. It goes on to list the Board Street Plaza, two, three, four in Broad Street Plaza and one hundred feet deep on Quaker Road Services, and then he writes back to them and says, regarding your proposal letter, and subsequent letter of January 20th, blah, blah, blah, we agree to the following, and they basically reiterate what he's already said, the fact that Earltown's got to give him 30 days notification that they will want him to vacate the property, which is pretty much a simple contract what they've got to, because they've got a spot right on the bottom where they agreed to it, and they date it. I mean, that same contract can apply to the application, just so that we have - 43 - '-- .- something on paper from them saying, it's okay. You can act as our agent to go ahead and make this deal with the Town. It's that simple. MR. TROELSTRA-I agree. MR. MACEWAN-I don't see what the problem would be from their end. I mean, if they're already making an agreement to you, you're just doing the same agreement for them, for the benefit of the Town. MR. MARTIN-Is there any chance that Frank would attend the meeting here? I can ask him. I'll ask him. MR. BREWER-That's where ~ stand. I don't know how everybody else feels. MR. MACEWAN-I agree with you. I mean, I don't think we can even legally act on it because he's not an agent. MR. TROELSTRA-We've got the approval from the Beautification Committee and Warren County. MR. BREWER-And I don't think you'll have a problem with us, but it's just a matter of legality. MR. STARK-If you could get him to sign that authorization to act as agent by Thursday, you know, we can table it until Thursday, no problem. MR. TROELSTRA-I don't have that ability. tagteam them on that. I think we'll have to MR. BREWER-Well, lets table it until Thursday, and if he doesn't, then. MR. MARTIN-I'll update the Board Thursday. MR. BREWER-Thursday we can always table it again. MR. MARTIN-If the people are present, you'll know that everything worked out, and if he's not here, I'll update you as to what happened, but I'll make every attempt over the next two days to get that authorization or at least have them attend your next meeting. MR. BREWER-Or if he wants, I don't mind a special meeting. I mean, it's going to take us 10 minutes. MR. TROELSTRA-Okay. Is there any other means, vehicle, I could use? Is there a temporary use permit of some sort, because this is by no stretch of the imagination a long term thing. MR. MACEWAN-We couldn't give you any kind of okay or approval to do anything without their approval. MR. MARTIN-We've worked with you to this point. If this is something that, if it has to be put off to February, we'll work with you on that. MR. BREWER-Thank you. We need your consent to table. Okay. We need a motion to table. HOTIOH TO TABLE SITE PLAN NO. 3-94 GARDEN TIME. INC., Introduced by Craig MacEwan who moved for its adoption, seconded by George Stark: Tabled until the next meeting, Thursday, January 27th. Duly adopted this 25th day of January, 1994, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Stark, Mr. Ruel, Mr. MacEwan, Mr. Brewer - 44 - ~"---'--"------" ...---- NOES: NONE MR. TROELSTRA-Thank you. MR. BREWER-Okay. I guess Harris Bay. representing Schermerhorn? Jim, is Michael O'Connor MR. MARTIN-He wasn't at the Zoning Board meeting. I know that. MR. BREWER-Is there someone here for Schermerhorn? MR. MARTIN-That was withdrawn from the Zoning Board. I thought you knew that. I'm sorry. The variance request was withdrawn. MR. STARK-SEQRA Review? MR. BREWER-Yes, but I think we're going to have a little bit of discussion first. SEORA REVIEW: SEQRA REVIEW: RESOLUTION ACKNOWLEDGING LEAD AGENCY STATUS AND REVIEW OF THE LONG EAF FOR THE HARRIS BAY YACHT CLUB APPLICATIONS. BRIAN O'DONNELL, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT MR. MARTIN-I think you should first accept Lead Agency Status. You have the resolution there. MR. BREWER-Okay. Does somebody want to introduce that? RESOLUTION ACKNOWLEDGING LEAD AGENCY STATUS IN CONNECTION WITH Variances and Site Plan for Harris Bay Yacht Club RESOLUTION NO.: 5-1994 INTRODUCED BY: Georqe Stark WHO MOVED ITS ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Craig MacEwan WHEREAS, in connection with the Variances and Site Plan applications, the Town of Queensbury Planning Board, by resolution, previously authorized the Executive Director to notify other involved agencies of the desire of the Planning Board to conduct a coordinated SEQRA review, and WHEREAS, the Executive Director has advised that other involved agencies have been notified and have consented to the Town of Queensbury Planning Board being lead agent, NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that the Town of Queensbury Planning Board hereby recognizes itself as lead agent for purposes of SEQRA review, and BE IT FURTHER, RESOLVED, that the Town of Queensbury Planning Board hereby determines that it has sufficient information and determines the significance of the project in accordance with SEQRA as follows¡ 1) an Environmental Impact Statement will not be required for the action, as the Planning Board has determined that there will be no significant effect or that identified environmental effects will not be significant for the following reasons: and - 45 - -- BE IT FURTHER, RESOLVED, that the Executive Director is hereby authorized to give such notifications and make such filings as may be required under Section 617 of the Official Compilation of Codes, Rules and Regulations of the State of New York. Duly adopted this 25th day of January, 1994, by the fOllowing vote: AYES: Mr. Ruel, Mr. MacEwan, Mr. Stark, Mr. Brewer NOES: NONE MR. BREWER-Okay. Scott, we have a couple of notes? STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff, Use Variance No. 111-1993, Area Variance No. 108- 1993, Site Plan Review application, Harris Bay Yacht Club, Meeting Date: January 25, 1994 "PROJECT DESCRIPTION: The applicant is proposing a five year master plan for the site. Changes to the site include a waterfront stone walkway, a raised wood deck attached to the club house, an addition to a shed at one of the docks, replacement of two underground gasoline storage tanks with a single 6,000 gallon above ground tank, reconfiguration of the parking lot. PROJECT ANALYSIS: The Planning Staff reviewed Part 2 of the Long Environmental Assessment submitted with this project and offers the following comments: 1. Will the proposed action result in a physical change to the project site? The proposal will result in a physical change to the project site. The site is currently utilized as a marina. The project includes changing the parking area, relocating a gasoline storage tank and construction of a pedestrian walkway and wood deck. All these actions will resul t in a change to the pro j ect site. 2. Will there be an effect to any unique or unusual land forms found on the site? There are no unique or unusual land forms found on the site. 3. Will the proposed action affect any water body designated as protected? The proposal will affect a protected water body. The project involves construction directly adjacent to a wetland area. The placement of a 6,000 gallon gasoline tank 4 feet from the wetland is a concern. The possibility of a spill is always present and with the tank being so close to the wetland it would be very difficult to prevent the spillage from getting into the wetland. By moving the tank to the edge of the proposed parking area it would be approximately 20 feet from the wetland. The reconfigured parking lot will be expanded on the east so that it is wi thin inches of the wetland. Contamination of the wetlands could be a problem because of this proximity. The applicant should indicate what measure will be used to ensure that the wetland will not be impacted by erosion sediment and contamination. 4. Will proposed action affect any non-protected existing or new body of water? The proposal will affect a non-protected body. The project will invol ve shoreline construction along Lake George. A DEC permit will be required and the applicant should indicate what measure will be taken to ensure that no erosion or sediment or pollution will get into the lake. 5. Will proposed action affect surface or groundwater? The proposal will affect surface and groundwater. Because the site is built mostly on fill, groundwater is very close to the surface and, therefore, very susceptible to contamination. The applicant needs to show that the contaminants from the cars and boats will not impact the groundwater. 6. Will proposed action alter drainage flow or patterns or surface water runoff? The proposal will affect drainage flow and surface water runoff. The applicant has to provide information regarding drainage and stormwater runoff. 7. Will proposed action affect air quality? The project should not impact air quality. 8. Will proposed action affect any threatened or endangered species? The proposed action should not affect any threatened or endangered species. 9. Will the proposed action substantially affect non-threatened or non-endangered species? The project should not affect any non- - 46 - .- threatened or non-endangered species. 10. Will the proposed action affect agricultural land resources? The project should not affect any agricultural land resources. 11. Will the proposed action affect aesthetic resources? The project should not impact any aesthetic resources." The overall purpose of this application is to improve this site aesthetically. So if anything, it would probably have a positive impact on the aesthetics. "12. Will proposed action impact any site or structure of historic, prehistoric or paleontological importance? The project should not have a negative impact on any site of historic, prehistoric or paleontological importance. 13. Will proposed action affect quantity or quality of existing or future open space or recreational opportunities? The action should not have an adverse effect on open space or recreational opportunities. 14. Will there be an affect to existing transportation systems? The project should not effect the transportation system. 15. Will proposed action affect the community's sources of fuel and energy? The proposal should not impact the community's energy or fuel supply. 16. Will there be objectionable odors, noise or vibrations as a result of the proposed action? There should not be objectionable noise, odors or vibrations as a result of this project. 17. Will proposed action affect public health and safety?" We've got, Rist- Frost supplied comments regarding this issue, and I'd like to read those into the record. ' Impact on Public Health - The proposed gasoline storage tank is adjacent to an uncontrolled parking area. The applicant should address intentions for adequate tank venting, warnings, etc. so as not to produce any potential for vapor igni tion or explosions due to normal habits of typical vehicle occupants including smoking or other sources of spark or flame.' "18. Will proposal affect the character of the eXisting community? The project should not have a negative impact on the character of the community." I'd like to add these two. These are our comments made by Tom Yarmowich of Rist-Frost Associates, that we got this afternoon. ' Wi th regard to SEQRA, the long form Part 2, we have the following comments: 1. Impact on Land - The project is proposed in multiple phases occurring between 4/94 and 12/99. This extensive period of project development has the potential for repetitive site disturbances and associated construction impacts to the environment. Extended construction monitoring will be required of the Town and other permitting agencies. Additional detail on the applicant's intended phasing plan may be warranted. Proposed mitigation should be identified. 2. Impact on Water - The project proposes encroachments in wetland adjacent areas, raising grades along the shoreline and bulk petroleum storage closer to the shoreline and wetlands than existing. It is likely that the proposed grade for the shoreline walkway will either concentrate runoff into the lake at additional points or will redirect runoff towards wetlands. The reduction in buffer area adjoining wetlands for proposed parking to the east has the potential for increasing pollutants entering the wetlands. The associated handling required for gasoline delivery truck off-loading and potential spills is a concern. Dedicated tank truck transfer station facilities are not indicated. How will the potential for a spill during transfers be addressed? Monitoring provisions for the storage tank and gasoline piping to fuel dispensing equipment are not indicated. What provisions are proposed? In general what mitigation measures does the applicant propose to address these potential impacts on the water?' "RECOMMENDATION: Additional information is required before staff can make a recommendation on this project for the purposes of SEQRA. This project is also subject to site plan review and a freshwater wetlands permit. Information contained in this application may necessi tate the re-opening of the SEQRA process should the Board deem the additional information significant." MR. MARTIN-And then there is an Item B with Tom's letter. "B. With regard to the Area Variance sought from 179-60 B: 1. There appears to be no location on the site which can provide the proper fuel storage tank separations without interfering with the existing clubhouse location. 2. Parking space layout is based on 10' x 20' spaces rather than minimum 9' x 20' spaces allowed in the zoning. - 47 - '-- "- The applicant should determine if reducing parking space size can eliminate or reduce the need for establishing new parking areas in the wetlands buffer area." And that's from Tom Yarmowich. MR. BREWER-Okay, fellows, it looks like we've got a couple of comments. MR. O'DONNELL-Yes. We haven't had the opportunity to have those comments before they were read. I've got the Rist-Frost document. I'm Brian O'Donnell. I'm the Attorney for the Harris Bay Yacht Club, and this is Jim Miller, who's one of the consultants working with us on the project. I'd like to get a copy of the comments that were read, so that we could address them. It's going to have to be at a later time than tonight. MR. BREWER-It would be my suggestion that possibly we could set up a workshop, if that's acceptable to you, and maybe go over the comments. MR. MARTIN-I apologize engineer today. Had submitted them to you. for that. we gotten We them just got earlier, these from our we would have MR. BREWER-That would probably be beneficial to both parties involved. MR. O'DONNELL-! would think so. MR. BREWER-I don't know how everybody else feels about it, but I think that would be a good idea. I mean, we can get some of the stuff done. MR. STARK-Do we need a week to address them, or? MR. O'DONNELL-I think a week. If it's not going to be doable within that length of time, we'll notify the Board, and ask for another extension. What we're going to need to do is go back to the architects that we're working with and say, these are the comments that we've gotten, what do we have in there already that we could point out to them, and what additional to we need to put into it. MR. MARTIN-The other thing I would suggest is that we actually have Tom present at the meeting, rather than just have to work from a letter. I don't think he'll have any problem with coming. MR. BREWER-What's acceptable to you for a date? I mean, I'm not gOing to shut you off now. ! mean, we'll still hear the people that are here, hear their comments. MR. O'DONNELL-No. Shutting it off now is probably not a bad idea, with the comments that have just come in. Do you want to do this during the day, or during the evening? MR. BREWER-Evening, six o'clock, seven o'clock, whatever. MR. O'DONNELL-February 1? That's next Tuesday, or February 2? MR. STARK-Wednesday? That's fine. MR. BREWER-That's fine with me. MR. MACEWAN-Will we have new Board members there? MR. MARTIN-Yes. We should by then. MR. BREWER-That would be great. MR. MARTIN-We'll bring them up to speed, because we're not very far into this at all. We'll submit to them all the information we - 48 - --- have. MR. MARTIN-Is that the date being discussed, February 2nd? MR. BREWER-Yes. MR. STARK-Next Wednesday. BETTY MONAHAN MRS. MONAHAN-By the second, you'll have an awful hard time bringing them up to speed. MR. BREWER-Well, they can sit in on the meeting anyway, Betty, and then they can read the previous comments. MRS. MONAHAN-I anticipate the appointments will be made by having a Special Town Board meeting on January the 31st. That is the way it looks at this present moment. MR. BREWER-We'll have it downstairs in the Conference Room? MR. MACEWAN-When do you want to do this, the second? MR. BREWER-Wednesday, the 2nd. MR. MACEWAN-Seven o'clock. MR. O'DONNELL-Okay. MR. BREWER-Wednesday the Conference Room. Okay. everything then? 2nd, seven 0' clock, downstairs in the So you want to hold off and go over MR. O'DONNELL-I think it makes sense to do that, unless you gentleman have some questions. MR. BREWER-I just have one question, in general. In the spring of the year, there's a ton of water there every single year of my life. What's going to happen to that? JIM MILLER MR. MILLER-What we anticipate will happen with that is, we're still going to get the high water in the spring. Assuming that we get permission to build and raise the walkway, it may limit the water coming into the parking lot to some extent. It will come in through the (lost word) and go out through the (lost word), but we'll have a dry area to walk on for access to the docks, right along the waterway. MR. BREWER-I just could never figure out why some engineer couldn't design to figure out how the hell to get rid of that water. I mean, as long as I've been in the business I'm in, I've been going to marinas, for 20 years, and I hated to go there every year because of the water. MR. MILLER-The only way to get rid of it would be to raise the grade around there, and get a spring like last winter, there's not much you can do, because the property is so flat. MR. BREWER-So there's actually really nothing going to happen with it. MR. MILLER-Well, we're going to try and improve it along the water front by raising that portion of it, but during extreme high water, such as in the spring, we'll still have some flooding, unless we control the entire parking lot. MR. BREWER-Yes. I know there's nothing you can do about 100 - 49 - '-- - percent of it, but. MR. MILLER-What we're trying to do under this proposal is raise the lowest part of stream, to at least get above the mean high water level, to minimize that. MR. BREWER-Yes. Okay. That was the only question I had. I don't know if anybody else has any questions. MR. O'DONNELL-One other question. Zoning Board tomorrow night. We're on the agenda for the MR. MARTIN-That would be postponed as well. MR. O'DONNELL-All right. MR. MARTIN-And we would coordinate that pending the outcome of the SEQRA process, at the next available meeting for the Zoning Board. They meet, just for your notes, they meet the third and fourth Wednesday of every month on a regular basis. JOE ROULIER MR. ROULIER-Can I ask a question? MR. BREWER-Yes. MR. ROULIER-There's several questions that I would like to ask, and one of them, I'm Joe Roulier. I have a few questions regarding the Harris Bay Yacht Club. I can probably answer that question best, why it's always under water. The best reason I can give you is probably because for the last 35 years it's been sinking, and that there have literally been thousands upon thousands upon thousands of yards of fill that have been dumped into that area, that continually keep sinking down into Harris Bay, and the additional fill that this Company is proposing to put in there is only a temporary solution to the problem, and I can assure you that five years from now they'll have the same problem, because I've seen this happen year after year, and I would just like to point out a problem they had about a year and a half ago. They were installing a new area for their crane to rest on, and in the course of installing this particular platform, what they did, one of the local contractors brought in stone by the yard. I would estimate probably five hundred to one thousand yards of stone, and (lost word) at the location of the crane right now. One afternoon, all of a sudden, this pile of stone that they had literally broke through the base of the lake, and as it broke through the base of the lake, the entire area where the docks are all the way over to the culvert that you're probably familiar with, literally raised right up in the air, to the point where the docks and the ground, as you know it to be the bottom of the lake, was out of the lake. One of my concerns is that they've been adding and adding fill. In fact, if you research this even further, you would know that when they put the road in, many, many years ago, several contractors went bankrupt because they would put in literally mountains of fill in the evening, and the next day they would come back and the fill would be gone. It's just a big void in there. My concern with the Harris Bay Yacht Club is that they've added this fill, up until as recently, I believe, as two years ago, and what's going to happen if all this fill, all of their parking lot, which is fill, breaks through this area of the bottom of the lake, and the only way I can explain this to you is a person at the site said to me, Harris Bay, there's a lot of sediment through the years that has blown into Harris Bay from the swamp, and at the bottom, as we know it, is actually a bottom composed of, lets say, two to three feet of sediment and mulch and everything that's been interwoven through the years. What happens is that when you get a high concentration of stone into one particular area, and this stone actually breaks through the silt type base that's been established, you get one action creates another reaction, and you get the displacement of - 50 - - the equivalent amount of stone that went down there. That's the theory that was presented as to why the bottom of the lake all of a sudden came up, and this gentleman here, I'm sorry, I don't know his name, but if he was the manager, he would attest to what I'm saying about the additional docks in that area and the ground level over to the culvert, were right up in the air. I have no idea, to this day, how they ever got it back down. Now, the concern that I have, I am a property owner in Harris Bay. The concern that I have is that if we continue to allow them to put fill in, granted they need the fill because of parking or whatever, but I don't think the residents of Harris Bay all of a sudden have to wake up one morning and have the bottom that we know it all of a sudden up over the top of their docks. I think that's their problem, and I think that they have to come up with alternative measures. I don't care if they have to come up with floating type of docks to get out to their docks, if they have to park their cars on the other side of the street. MR. BREWER-They have the same problem on the other side of the street. MR. ROULIER-That's right, and as you know, I think you know, the building on the other side of the street, that big building that they have there, I've been told, sinks two to three inches a year. MR. BREWER-I don't know that, but I know it's under water every year. MR. ROULIER-But it's continually sinking. The additional fill that they'll put in there could bring the problem that I'm telling you folks to a head, but two years from now, we're going to have the identical problem. It's going to keep sinking and sinking and sinking, and somehow it has to be effecting, ecologically, environmentally, the balance of Harris Bay. It's not right. The other thing that concerns me is, of course, gas, oil, they want to increase the parking in that particular area. The more parking you put into that area, the more gas, the more pollutants obviously get washed into Harris Bay. I'd like to get on to something else, but I do want you to consider that. because I think that an engineering study may be in order to verify what I'm telling you about. MR. BREWER-We'll determine that when we go through the SEQRA. MR. ROULIER-Okay. I'd like to move on to the septic system. I would like to find out exactly where the septic tank is, and at what level the top of the septic tank is in the spring of the year. As you know that the parking lot is approximately two feet under water in the spring of the year, and from what ~ have been told, and I don't have first hand information on this, but the septic tank that they use is then under water by two to three feet. Now, my concern is this, that they use that tank as a holding tank through the winter months, and I've been told that they periodically pump it out, although I do not know if there is an alarm system on that tank that would tell them when to pump it out, but I do know this, based on my own experience, having to have pumped out numerous septic tanks, there is not a company available that gets in to a septic tank and scours a septic tank out, and can assure me that when the water level is three feet over the top of that septic tank in the spring, that the residual that's in that tank isn't leaching out into Harris Bay, and I would like to know that, in their master plan, that they will address that problem. The other problem that I have is, Harris Bay Yacht Club, one of the services the Harris Bay Yacht Club has for their own customers, and for other people that come in off the lake, is that they pump this sewage from these boats, from all these boats which have hOlding tanks into a septic tank, and then it is disposed of in an area, I understand, that's across the road, on the swamp side of Route 9L. I have two concerns. I have concern about the sewage because the sewage is a highly concentrated volume of sewage. It's not the typical sewage that we would have when you're diluting down with - 51 - '-- - water. What they have, they're using marine toilets. tremendous concentration. In a MR. BREWER-It seems like it's against the law. MR. ROULIER-Okay, and in addition to that, I'm not through, under one of these items, it says, do they, I can't tell you, about waste, they also, the sewage is one problem. The other side of the coin is that they're continually adding to the sewage and the holding tanks where the boat, a chemical that eliminates the odor. So in addition to the sewage, they're pumping into the leach area, a tremendous volume of chemicals. I'm concerned because in the, as part of the requirements to take care of this, I think it's under H. of the list of requirements, it says that they have to put down existing septic systems, and I think for all of our benefit, I would certainly like them to indicate what they have for septic systems, and indicate specifically what they currently have for a leachfield, because I'll tell you one thing, I know exactly where the leachfield is at the Harris Bay Yacht Club. I know that it was installed in excess of 20 years ago, when it was a considerably smaller marina, when the boats were little day boats, not overnight camps, like they have, and I think that we, this is an opportunity with this master plan, that we thoroughly review the septic system of the Harris Bay Yacht Club, before they're allowed to change their vacuum tank, which is an integral part of their septic system. They want to move a vacuum tank, which is the actual vacuum, I understand, that takes the sewage off the boat, puts it into the septic tank, and then pumps it to this, what I would consider to be an inadequate leachfield, in an area that's closer to the swamp than I'm sitting from you fellows right now. I think we have a lot of questions that have to be answered, and right now, they're probably the two biggest ones, and hopefully at that workshop meeting, maybe we can get them, before they come back in, maybe we can have a detailed analysis of the septic. I would like them to also come in and tell us exactly, within the last 10 years, so that yOU know how many additional cubic yards of fill have been put into the basin of Harris Bay. MR. BREWER-Well, I think that's something that we can ask Mr. Martin to investigate that. If they're dumping over in there, Jim, I don't know how you can do it now, but I don't think that's legal, is it? MR. MARTIN-Well, the only thing that comes to my mind, right now, to investigate that, would be to have some soil borings done throughout the site, and see if there has been dumping, or. MR. BREWER-If Mr. Roulier knows where they're dumping it, I mean, it wouldn't be too hard to, do you know where it is? MR. ROULIER-Absolutely. MR. MARTIN-That would also speak to the question as to whether there is, in fact, any sort of a foundation or bedrock or firm ground under all, or if there is in fact a settling situation. MR. BREWER-I guess what I'm getting at is if they're dumping sewage, and chemicals, next to a wetlands. MR. O'DONNELL-Gentleman, would you like a response to that? MR. BREWER-Yes, I would. law. I'm not positive. I've got to believe that's against the MR. O'DONNELL-Well, the short version is, and I'll give you both the short and the long version, that Harris Bay's Capital Improvement Program is seeking to do certain things. It's not seeking to rebuild the facility, and what it's seeking to do is replace existing 7,000 gallon fuel storage tanks with a double containment 6,000 gallon tank. It's seeking to tie together the - 52 - '- / decks and provide handicapped access on the Club House. It's seeking to consolidate vending machines and pay phones which are currently on site in one area by a shed and sea dock, and it's seeking to install some landscaping, and in the course of that, move a vacuum tank from one side of the building to the other. Across the road, it's seeking to place some fill in an area which has previously been filled, in front of one of the buildings, and that's what it's seeking to do. It's not seeking to change the septic system. Mr. Roulier, as far as ~ know, has never been on Harris Bay's property with permission. Apparently, Mr. Roulier has been on Harris Bay's property without permission, and recently as December made a complaint about our septic system to the Lake George Park Commission, who's charged with investigating these complaints. They went. They investigated. They took water quali ty samples, as apparently did he, and the water quality samples were tested. They are well within normal coliform, fecal coliform, and fecal streptococci. I have the records. Now, the parking lot in Harris Bay, on the lake side, as far as I remember, and I go back to 1980, has not been filled, with the exception of, I think, three years ago or so, when some gravel was poured on, about two inches of gravel was poured on, away from the lake surface. I don't recall any other filling being done on that. The project that he's talking about, where we had some sediment displacement, we were replacing the launch ramp, and the volume of stone which we put in under the old launch ramp, and we pulled out, did displace some sediment. That's true. It was cleared out. It's not a problem. We're not seeking to do anything to the soil. We're not seeking to modify the docks. They're essentially new, floating docks. What he's talking to you about has nothing to do with our application. MR. BREWER-It has to do with our SEQRA. If we're doing a SEQRA on that, that has to do with that property, I would, in mY opinion, I think it has something to do with it. MR. MARTIN-I will say this much about the septic system. The septic system. regardless of what happens with this application, will be pursued by both the Town and the Lake George Park Commission. If the Lake George Park Commission doesn't want to participate, then we have basis to do it on our own. If there's suspicion of a failure, they'll investigate that. I have a problem with a test being done in December, on a system that's probably not being used at all, and I think what should be done to get an accurate reading on this, is for the test to be done in July, late July, when the boats being emptying their holding tanks, to see if there is, in fact, a failure and answer this question once and for all. MR. BREWER-Then how, properly, can we do the SEQRA, Jim? MR. MARTIN-Well, I'm just saying that the system is not, the place is virtually, if you do the testing now, I feel the data that's going to come back, in my estimation, is inaccurate, because the system's certainly not being used. If it is, it's certainly not being used at the level. MR. BREWER-I don't mean to interrupt you. I'm specifically talking about where he says they're dumping. MR. MARTIN-I think there is some merit that we are dealing with two separate actions here. You have a project that's defined with some improvements, but I'm saying, as a separate issue, regardless of this, it is going to be pursued, and a final answer is going to be attained on the septic system, and I'm saying this is a separate action, irregardless of this application, we're going to look into the failure, suspected failure, of that system. MR. BREWER-They're changing the septic, aren't they? MR. O'DONNELL-No. - 53 - -- MR. STARK-They're not touching the septic system. MR. ROULIER-They're changing the vacuum system. MR. STARK-They're changing the location of the vacuum system. MR. O'DONNELL-We're not changing the vacuum system. We're just moving the vacuum system that currently exists from here to here. That's it. MR. ROULIER-Then couldn't they, could you have them provide us with the details, tell us what they have? I think that's reasonable, under the requirement H. It says, of existing septic systems. MR. MILLER-The existing system is shown on the drawing, as best it could be identified. There was no engineering plans available, and the surveyors located the tanks and all the pump pits and the lines and everything, that they could reasonably locate. MR. O'DONNELL-All of which has been provided in the initial application. MR. ROULIER-My point is this, the leachfield area that they have, apparently they are not able to provide us with any detail as to the size of it. We have 270 boats over there, with bedrooms, with a considerable amount of sewage and chemicals that's going into an area probably a tenth the size of this room, and all we're asking for of the Harris Bay Yacht Club is to tell us what they have for a leachfield, I think it's reasonable. MR. O'DONNELL-If our system fails, there is a procedure for dealing with that, and it's a different form. It's not this one, and I'm sure that the Lake George Park Commission or the Town of Queensbury, who does the inspections, will tell us if the system fails. They've inspected it. They did it in December, on his complaint. They've done it during the course of year. It hasn't failed. We're not here before you doing anything with that septic system, and what we would ask you to do is concentrate on the project that we've brought before you. MR. BREWER-Okay. MR. ROULIER-Can I make one additional comment on that? Apparently, the Harris Bay Yacht Club pumps sewage to this leachfield area, and then discontinues at a certain date. The samples that the Lake George Park Commission obtained were approximately two months after they had stopped pumping to that area, and in my conversation with one of them, as recently as last week, they did not take the samples immediately adjacent to where their system is located. The reason for that is because the area immediately adjacent was frozen because, of course, the time of the year. MR. MARTIN-This has been a long standing problem. The Town, and I believe the County, at one time, had a lake affairs person, or an individual went out and investigated these types of things, Dan Olson, and a test was done back then, regarding this issue, and I believe the Health Officer for the Town, Dr. Evans, had some concerns also, and I don't know that those were ever fully addressed or followed up on, and that's why I believe this summer we've got to do a thorough test, go out into the middle of the wetland, take some samples. Go to the edge of the wetland, near the leach bed and take some samples, do a comparison, and also test for the presence of suspected chemicals. If the chemicals are there in the wetland in any great concentration, then you certainly have a failure, ~ believe. I think you can make that association. So this has got to be done, but it's got to be done at a proper time of the year to get an accurate idea as to what the real impact is. MR. ROULIER-The leachfield area is essentially built on the swamp. - 54 - - MR. MARTIN-Just so you, this is my basic understanding of the system, and maybe Jim can correct me if I'm wrong, but my basic understanding is you have a vacuum point next to the, I believe it's the southeast corner of the building, at the current time, of the Clubhouse. That's where the sewage is deposited. It goes to a septic tank under the parking lot, essentially, right? MR. MILLER-There's just a pump pit there. That's all that is. MR. MARTIN-Okay, a pump pit. It goes from there through a line, believe it or not, right through the wetland, paralleling Route 9L on the north side of the road. You can see it in the fall. It's on the north side, crosses through a culvert under the road, takes another turn, and proceeds on the south side of the road, paralleling the road, up to a small grassy forested area on the south side of the road on the edge of the wetland, and that's where the leach bed is, and it's about, I would say~ a quarter of a mile away from the Clubhouse. MR. BREWER-And the Park Commission allows that? MR. MARTIN-Well, it's a preexisting situation. MR. O'DONNELL-Yes, sir, they do. That's the system that's been in there for years. It has worked, and it is still working, and we're meticulous about maintaining it, and in the past we've had some sabotage on that line. Somebody took apart the couplings, and we replaced it with galvanized line. MR. MARTIN-That's what instituted the inspection by the County and the Town at the time, because that was deemed as a, there was some question as to what constituted a major or minor repair. MR. O'DONNELL-And it was determined that was minor. MR. MARTIN-Right. MR. O'DONNELL-And we've walked that line at irregular intervals every day. JOHN SALVADORE MR. SALVADORE-My name is John Salvadore. If I remember correctly, this system is fully laid out and designed in the Prospectus that Harris Bay Yacht Club utilized when they marketed the memberships in that Club. Secondly, the test samples that were taken back in '88 or '89 were taken by Warren County, okay, and they were used to support the Lake George Park Commission's promulgation of waste water regulations. They're in a table. They're coded. You have to really search to find out where they were taken, and it's just more of a flax that was thrown up to justify the waste water regulations, all these failures we had. It's all documented. It's all there. MR. BREWER-Thank you. MR. ROULIER-I would just like one thing clarified. Is there a septic tank, then, immediately behind the Harris Bay Yacht Club? If there is, is it under water in the spring of the year. MR. MILLER-There is a concrete pump tank there that the effluent that's pumped out of boats, as well as the effluent from the building, goes to a pump pit. It's pumped to the galvanized line that was discussed. The septic tank is on the other side of the road. I'm not sure of the exact elevations. Well above the wetland. Here's the Clubhouse area. and then there's a 25 acre piece of property up here, and the tank is located in this area. It shows an elevation of 326, and the lake is 320. We haven't found any documentation if they're tile fields or drywells or what's up there, then what happens in the fall of the year, that - 55 - - pump pit's not used. As a matter of fact, if you go up there now, you'll see it's a portable toilet for the winter employees. The entire line is blown out. The tank is, I believe the septic tank is pumped out, and then that pump pit is drained. In the spring of the year, yes, that pump pit is under water. It's got a concrete cover on it, and it is under water, but it's pumped out every fall, and in the spring of the year, when the system's activated, any water that's in there is pumped up into the system. MR. O'DONNELL-Gentlemen, I have what I believe are the 1989 tests that Mr. Salvadore was talking about. They were taken on June 7th, and apparently three different samples, three different tests. Three different tests with multiple samples each. The highest count of fecal coliform per 100 milliliters is 80 colims, 400 is the level at which they start to look at it as a problem. The other two samples are less than 10, and all of the number of colonies in the samples were zeros. MR. BREWER-Okay. MR. ROULIER-I'd like to address that. MR. O'DONNELL-By the way, we're not talking about the septic system in our project here. MR. ROULIER-But to answer, I've taken two separate water samples in December, adjacent to where this system is. Now I want you to keep in mind that these samples were taken approximately two months after anything was pumped into that area, all right. The first result was the total coliform, which was 1480. The second results, which is fecal coliform, which was 160. Now, I think it was Jim just said that they'll start looking at it at 200. MR. BREWER-Mr. Salvadore just did. MR. SALVADORE-It used to be 400, and it has been reduced to 200. MR. ROULIER-Okay. Now that's 160, approximately two months after anything was pumped into the area. So, the results that I've obtained certainly would, and I just want to also, the biologist that analyzed these results said, in his opinion, that there was no question about it, that there is some sewage that's going into this particular area, and I know that Jim and I have had a conversation regarding this, and he's also talked to this man, and this is what, another reason why we feel as though next year we'll be doing more monitoring of the area to see if the system is in fact failing, but the preliminary results, and they're quite official here, I'd be happy to show them to you, indicate that there is some sewage going into the swamp of Harris Bay. MR. STARK-Tim, this doesn't have anything to do with the application. MR. BREWER-Right. MR. STARK-There's no discussion of the septic system. MR. BREWER-All right. We're done. If you want to discuss it when we go through the SEQRA, you're more than welcome, the second, Wednesday night. MR. MARTIN-Just so the public who's here picked up on it, the next meeting is a workshop, February 2nd. I believe that's a Wednesday night, at seven o'clock, and the Board is asking for the Conference Room downstairs by the Planning Office. I believe that's Room 5. MR. O'DONNELL-I've never been before a workshop. Tell me what I need. MR. BREWER-It's very informal. We're going to go through the SEQRA - 56 - "-- line by line, and address any questions. MR. MARTIN-We will have our Consulting Engineer present that evening, the individual who wrote the letter to the Board tonight. MR. BREWER-We'll just go through every line, by line, by line, by line. MR. MACEWAN-We don't want to actually do the SEQRA Review. We'll just go over it with you to identify where there may be any potential problems. Correct? MR. BREWER-Well, if we go through it and there's not a problem, we can do it. MR. MACEWAN-Well. the only thing is with the public hearing. Should we leave it open? MR. MARTIN-There wasn't a public hearing required, not for a SEQRA Review. MR. BREWER-If there's potentially problems in the SEQRA, engineering problems you have to address, that gives you time. MR. MARTIN-Just so you have the right perspective here, too, this is the SEQRA Review on the variances and also a site plan review, which is associated with this. This will be back to you in site plan, if it gets that far. MR. BREWER-And I think, in this situation, if need be, we can waive the deadline for submission for February, because the deadline is the last Wednesday of January. You'll be past that if you want to get back on the agenda for February. CHARLIE ADAMS MR. ADAMS-Can I make one quick comment? I don't know if I'm the only one that is kind of horrified, here, and I'm not criticizing anybody personally, but the end of that Harris Bay Yacht Club galvanized pipe goes into the tank on the base of Assembly Point, and nobody knows what happens to it. Now, I think there ought to be some authority that can come along and say. we have the right to know what happens to it, and I think that although what the Yacht Club wants to do in their new plans, so forth, if they are as much concerned about their septic system and knowing everything that they have to know about it, then I'm not sure that they're going to get very far. MR. BREWER-I agree with you, Mr. Adams, and I disagree with Jim, because, and you, sir, no disrespect, but if your project has nothing to do with your septic system. I don't care. If it's effecting the project or the property, then, to me, it does have something to do with it, and that's just my personal opinion. I can't speak for the Board. If it's leaching into a wetland, then it's effecting it. That's my opinion. MR. STARK-But it doesn't have anything to do with the project. MR. BREWER-It certainly does. It's part of the property. MR. ADAMS-The project can't exist if that system doesn't work. MR. BREWER-It certainly does. MR. STARK-Then they should be shut down now, instead of, you know, I mean, they're talking about putting a walk in, and relocating a gas tank. That doesn't have anything to do with the project. MR. BREWER-I think it effects it, George, because it has something to do with the whole piece of property, and I'm not here to debate - 57 - ..." -/' with anybody. MR. ROULIER-Ultimately, if there's a problem, then the Harris Bay Yacht Club should be shut down. The sewage up there is a concern. MR. BREWER-But this is not the Board that can shut it down. MR. ROULIER-No, I know that, but why doesn't the Harris Bay Yacht Club, obviously, these gentlemen here know that it goes over adjacent to a wetland, okay. Why don't they just, you know, in "master plan" say, hey, look it, lets get the sewage and the chemicals out of the Lake George basin, put a holding tank in, right next to the gasoline tank. If they can put a 6,000 gallon gas tank in, they can put a 6,000 gallon hOlding tank, and then have the sewage truck come and take it down to the waste water treatment plant. MR. BREWER-You're asking the wrong guy. MR. ROULIER-But that, if they want to do something, you know, it's a very self-serving thing what they want to do. They want to make it better for their people. They come up, they get on the boats. They use the lake. They get on and the sewage goes in the swamp. That's not right. Let the sewage go in a container, and let it go down to the plant. Why can't we incorporate that into a master plan? MR. BREWER-I think that's something you should talk to them about. MR. STARK-Tim, at the workshop there's no public hearing. MR. BREWER-It's not a public hearing, but I don't think this Board's ever denied anybody the right to talk, at any meeting, and as long as I'm Chairman, I don't think I ever will. MR. ROULIER-Well, I thank you very much. MR. BREWER-You're welcome. Okay. Thank you very much, gentlemen. MR. MARTIN-Okay, I just want to call to your attention the discussion item on the Stormwater Management Ordinance. Did anybody get a chance to look at that? Any comments? MR. MACEWAN-Not yet. MR. STARK-What would you like to discuss about it? MR. MARTIN-Well, I'd like to know if you had any input on it. I have mY thoughts on it, but. MR. BREWER-Can we wait until Thursday to discuss it? MR. MARTIN-Yes. You can do it Thursday, because there's a meeting with the Park Commission next week to take that up, and if you'll notice, Town Planning Board's are referenced in those regulations as doing reviews relating to Stormwater Management. That's why I gave it to you. MR. BREWER-Could we just go through these first three resolutions real quick, Jim, Garth Allen, Passarelli, and Potvin? MR. MARTIN-I'll update you on those, too. In terms of Passarelli and Potvin, I brought that to the Town Board the other night. They want to hold off on giving you a comment on that. I think Tim was there. He heard it, until the weather clears and they can actually get out on site, and walk the site. They are willing to agree to, or they encourage the Planning Board to enter into an agreement with the applicant's to allow their plat to be approved with the recreation land dedication or fee issue left open until comments can be brought forth after a. - 58 - - --.../ MR. BREWER-With no building permits issued until such time as the fee is paid. MR. MARTIN-Right. fee is paid or the land is dedicated. MR. BREWER-Or the land is dedicated. So we have no, the Recreation Commission did discuss those two, but they also want a chance to go and look at the site, and I think they're probably going to wait until spring, also. MR. BREWER-Do you want to wait, or do these right now? Do we have a prepared resolution for those? MR. MARTIN-Yes, well, the two are accepting land. I don't think you're in a position to do that, and Garth Allen, we don't have a defined area, yet, for dedication. We may have that by Thursday, or next month for sure. As soon as we get it, we'll let you know. MR. BREWER-We have nothing to do, then, with those. MR. MACEWAN-Tim, Mr. Salvadore has a question. MR. BREWER-Yes, sir. MR. SALVADORE-If I may, John Salvadore, from Queensbury. I will not be able to attend your Thursday evening meeting, and I have a real interest in stormwater, and the work that Jim Martin is doing, and I would like you, if you can, to take a few moments to hear him. MR. BREWER-Are you going to be there Wednesday, the 2nd? MR. MARTIN-That'll be too late. The meeting of the Park Commission is earlier that day. MR. BREWER-You mean, now? MR. STARK-What comments do you have? I mean, they can't take that long, can they? MRS. MONAHAN-Excuse me, Jim. Aren't you going to also discuss this wi th the Town Board, your comments. Maybe he can make that meeting. MR. MARTIN-Yes. Next Monday night it's going to be discussed with the Town Board, too. MR. SALVADORE-Monday night at the Town Board, Fred Champagne tells me you're going to be talking about the Warren County Sewer. It'll probably take all night. MR. MARTIN-They agreed at their last meeting Monday night, though, to do it this Monday the 31st. MR. MACEWAN-We're this late, what's another 15 minutes, 20 minutes, half an hour. MR. STARK-What's your comments, Jim? They can't be that much, are they? MR. MARTIN-Well, I have a problem with the existing stormwater regulations are very, they're highly, they depend highlY on someone developing what I feel is an exorbitant system, in some cases, to deal with stormwater, and they create, I believe, excessively low thresholds, as to what, if you read the regulations, is deemed like a major project that kicks in all these various engineering plans to be developed, and all this, to deal with stormwater, and to me, there seems to be, there's got to be a more straightforward, practical approach to dealing with stormwater and not create these expenses for people, because that's why they haven't been - 59 - -_._._<- - .- --/- implemented. These stormwater regulations, we have stormwater regulations right now that have been adopted, and the way the rules read, if the local towns don't adopt them, the Park Agency themselves is supposed to enforce them, and they haven't done it, because they are just so out of line with what could reasonably be expected with anybody, it hasn't happened, and the other thing that I'm learning about this is, the main problem with stormwater is that there's a lot of phosphorus in it, and phosphorus is a big problem in the lake, in that it contributes to the growth of, what's the plant? MR. MACEWAN-Milfoil. MR. SALVADORE-Macrophites, all of them. MR. MARTIN-Right. So, they want to cut down on the phosphorus loading on the lake, and a lot of that has been proven to come from stormwater, but what has also been proven is that 75 percent of the phosphorus that enters the lake, or the stormwater that enters the lake, comes between the months of February and June. Obviously, with the snow melt runoff, which, given the time of the year, renders most of your stormwater management techniques inoperative, because you have frost in the ground. So the water just simply runs off over the top and into the lake. So, we have all these complicated regulations, then, to deal with 25 percent of the problem, most of which. that remaining 25 percent, is coming from the municipal road system, which is not held to any standard, or any sort of mitigation measures, or corrective measures to deal with stormwater. So, to me, if we're going to get the most bang for our buck, so to speak, we should be asking the municipalities around the Lake George basin to get their act together with their roads and the State and the County. MR. MACEWAN-Which means tax dollars to be spent. MR. MARTIN-Well, but you have, I think, a better avenue, and a better venue to get effective stormwater management, rather than making the guy who's trying to build a three thousand garage on a, three thousand dollar garage on a site, install a five thousand dollar stormwater management system to deal with the runoff from his garage roof. MR. SALVADORE-The problem is this. They promulgate the stormwater regulations, and on the first go, they had State agencies and municipalities in there, okay, and, excuse me. they didn't promulgate. They drafted. They had State agencies and they had m municipalities in there for their roads, and none of them would agree to it. One State agency will not allow another State agency to regulate it. There's just no way. So they had to drop that out. They were forced to drop that out. They promulgated the regulations. Now, they have, they're working with the municipalities, and, by the way, on the first go around, you folks weren't active. I came in to this Town and talked with Steve Borgos and Lee York, repeatedly, to get in with the Park Commission at these workshop sessions that you're doing now. They refused to do it, and so when the Park Commission came and said, here's our model Ordinance, you weren't ready for it. None of them can accept it, okay. Now what do they do? We're back to Square One, but they did try, in the initial go around, and it didn't work, and now, as Jim says, the stormwater regulations are nothing but a left handed regulation control on development. That's all it is. They're not going to do anything about cleaning up the problem we have, but it is a break on development, and they'll tell you that, don't they? They tell you that. MR. MARTIN-See, what ~ have a problem with is, we're the guys in the front lines. We're the guys down in the trenches, when the building permit comes in, like I say, for a garage or a house, or an expansion, and I've got to say to the person, well, you've got bedrock outcroppings on your site, which is prevalent in many areas - 60 - ".- -/" of the shores of the lake, in our particular town. You have no chance for infiltration. You've got to develop an elaborate pumping system and holding tank and all that to deal with rain water. You tell that to somebody, and explain to them that the reason why they have to pay for the soft cost for the design, and the installation of the system, and the maintenance of the system, year in and year out, is that rain water pollutes Lake George. MR. SALVADORE-I would be faced, under the first regulations, with collecting in the order of two hundred thousand gallons of water in a twenty four hour period, collecting it, impounding it, and then infil trating it into the ground, two hundred thousand gallons. That's a hell of a good sized swimming pool, isn't it? MR. MARTIN-George. your establishment's in the Park Commission. MR. STARK-I'm not in the Park Commission. I'm a half mile out of it, thank God. MR. MARTIN-But these are the types of things, and I just feel that the place where we can have the greatest effect, and the systems are in place to actually install the improvements, and maybe even deal with the runoff problem in the winter time as well, or in the spring, is with the road system, and that's where the accountability should be in the first instance. MR. STARK-But what are you suggesting, a different salt, or something like that, that doesn't have as much phosphorus in it, or what? MR. MARTIN-No, it's naturally present in the water anyhow. MR. SALVADORE-Well, we're fighting the forces of nature. exactly what we're doing. That's MR. MARTIN-And, to me, that's the place where the greatest energy should be spent, because that's where you can have the greatest impact. The other thing is, a lot of the problem is existing, the existing structures. We have a great amount of our shoreline in this town is built out. You may have some expansion of existing structures over a long period of time, but a lot of it's built out. So, to have this put in on new construction, is going to be virtually meaningless, unless you do something, also, to deal with the existing structures as well. MR. MACEWAN-This only goes into effect if someone does a new addition or a new structure, but it's not in effect if someone's buying an existing piece of property. MR. MARTIN-There's all sorts of very low threshold, limits of clearing. As soon as you clear a certain area, like 750 square feet, or whatever, I forget what it is, structures of a certain size, it kicks you into this greater review, and it virtually requires that you get professional assistance in a stormwater management plan, and then a system designed to deal with it, and all that. MR. SALVADORE-And the other thing they want, they want this stormwater management plan recorded at the Warren County Center, and they want a deed encumbrance, that that plan stays in effect, regardless of who owned the property. MR. MARTIN-See, and to me, it goes so far one way, in trying to protect the lake, that it's doing the exact opposite. It is so cumbersome and so costly and overly restrictive, that it's had the exact opposite effect. The stormwater management regulations were adopted by the Park Commission when? MR. SALVADORE-'89. - 61 - "-' ........",..ø/ MR. MARTIN-'89, and it's here now nearly five years later, and we have, I believe, two communi ties in the basin who are actually adhering to them. MR. RUEL-Does this storm management water system exist because no one else has come up with a better plan? MR. SALVADORE-It exists because we're relying on junk science, if you want the truth. The Park Commission has a technical staff, an advisory staff, and they're putting out junk science. This phosphorus budget changes from day to day, okay. Over the years, they have shifted on the septic systems being a problem and the phosphorus generator, to now slowly, as the reports come out, over the years, these wizards, these scientist, are shifting and finding the stormwater to be the real problem. You don't hear much about waste water now. MR. RUEL-But aren't they aware of the same problems that you're talking about? Are they blind to this? Are they ignoring them? MR. SALVADORE-Yes, but they neg dec everything. They didn't do an environmental review. MR. MARTIN-I find, in fact, I'd buy into the fact that I think phosphorus is having a negative effect on the lake, and I think therefore some protection should be put in place, but again, lets put our efforts in the area where we're going to have the most effect, right off the bat, and to me, that is stormwater management along the roadways. MR. SALVADORE-Now, the key thing about this change, they want to change regulation. They want to change regulations that they promulgated after they had a two year moratorium, okay, two year moratorium, they stopped everything so they could do these regulations. It took them that long to get them in place. Now they're trying to get them incorporated in the towns. They're running into resistance, and now they want to modify them. How about all those folks out there that have been hurt by this? I mean, hurt. A lot of those homeowners out there have had to do these things Jim's talking about, okay. It's a real sticky wicket. MR. MARTIN-See, and where it's going to come into play with you is, virtually all these things are going to need site plan review, and you're going to be reviewing these stormwater management mechanisms and systems for compliance with these regulations. MR. SALVADORE-Well, mind you, in this change that they want to do, for a property like ours, okay, a commercial property like ours, where, in the original draft of the regulations, it was necessary that the whole site be studied and taken care of, now they're saying they want to put the word "may" in. MR. RUEL-Not "shall". MR. SALVADORE-"May". Isn't that something? Well, who decides who gets it and who dOesn't? MRS. MONAHAN-Jim, under (lost word) can you shift that right back onto the Lake George Park Commission and let them walk under that amount of paperwork? MR. MARTIN-See, because where this got started was, Kathy Vilmar with the Lake George Association called all the Zoning Administrators around the Lake George basin and said, would you like to meet on a fairly regular basis and take up various issues that you have, as a group of Zoning Administrators, in the Lake George basin, unifying issues, and we quickly came to Park Commission issues and the stormwater regulations, and that's where we are today. It took about a year to get to this point, but that's why we're here now, and I came into this, saying to the - 62 - '- other Zoning Administrators, listen, the lake is being polluted, and we're not doing anything about it. We ought to, as individual towns, develop some reasonable, rational direct approaches to this problem and start doing it. Call for guttering on houses built along the lake with drywells and that type of thing, and that's something people are willing to accept. They understand. They're willing to do that. It's not costly, but at least you're doing something, and then we got off into this modification of the existing rules. MR. RUEL-How about salt getting into the stormwater system? Anything being done about that? MR. SALVADORE-Well, the salt shows up in the lake in the measure of the chlorides. This is where you see it. Chlorides aren't particularly harmful. They kill all those fecal coli we talk about. MR. MARTIN-Well, I think they do have an effect on the fish, and the trout, especially, are effected by that. MR. RUEL-In Lake George, they actually go out in the spring and pick up all the sand and the salt from the roads. MR. SALVADORE-They try to. MR. RUEL-To prevent it from going into the lake. MR. MARTIN-Yes, but, see, I don't think that, the salt is long gone. The salt dissolves quickly. It's already in the lake. They do that mostly to recover the sand for next year's water. MR. BREWER-They also say that a lot of the salt is purified before it gets to the lake, too. I don't know how true that it. MR. RUEL-What do you mean by "purified"? MR. BREWER-Well, it goes down into the ground before it gets to the water. MR. MARTIN-The worst condition by far is the stuff that runs off with the snow melt, right over the top of the ground, no infil tration. It's directly into the lake, and like Hanneford Road, you dealt with an application along there tonight. There's areas along there where the runoff is direct. I mean, you saw Irwin Johnson's application, remember? Right in that area. There's very elaborate systems people have set up that take the runoff directly into the lake. MR. SALVADORE-Whatever comes of all of this, the Park Commission is going to come up with a model Ordinance, okay, and Jim is going to be required to incorporate that into the Town Zoning Ordinance. That's the law. MR. MARTIN-Or the Town Board will be. MR. SALVADORE-The Town Board will be. We will demand an environmental review before that's done, okay. MR. RUEL-You'll pick it up, word for word, and drop it in as our Ordinance. MR. SALVADORE-The Park Commission can make you do it. Believe me, they have enormous powers. Read their legislation. MR. MARTIN-So, this was the line of thinking that I was going to try and advance on behalf of the Town, or as the Town Zoning Administrator, the meeting is next Wednesday afternoon, the 2nd. MR. SALVADORE-He's got to go to the meeting with something, right? - 63 - ----- MR. MARTIN-Right. I'm just trying to get some consensus from the various Boards, the ZBA, the Planning Board, and the Town Board, as to what the approach should be, so I at least go with some backing, and they don't hear about this second hand. MR. MACEWAN-I like the approach that you want to do. You want to do something less restrictive, but do some good, without burdening them with astronomical expense. MR. MARTIN-Because if you do that, that's why we are where we are. People have just revolted to the point where they've just simplY said, no, and what are you going to do about it? The Park Commission does directly enforce, I believe, what, in Ticonderoga, and. MR. SALVADORE-Ticonderoga, maybe Fort Ann, those little towns that don't have their own. MR. MARTIN-And there's very little activity along the lake there. So it's not a big issue. MR. RUEL-We seem to have some experts in the area. Could somebody explain to me why I see vapors coming out of these drains all winter long? How come it's so warm down there? MR. SALVADORE-The ground is not exposed to cold air. MR. MACEWAN-Yes. The water is warmer than the air. MR. MARTIN-The ground, at six to eight feet below the surface, maintains a constant temperature, I believe, of, like, 53 degrees. MR. MACEWAN-Fifty-two, close. Fifty-two. MR. MARTIN-That's where heat pumps come from, heat exchangers and that. MR. SALVADORE-I've been following this for many years, and you have a two pronged attack, a political problem, and you have technical problems. MR. MARTIN-The other problem I have with these regulations is a lot of them were developed by engineers who, boy, they knew what they were getting into from the beginning. All right. That's all I had. MR. STARK-Mrs. Monahan, you had something to say? MRS. MONAHAN-Sure I have something to say. MR. SALVADORE-By the way, this Harris Bay Yacht Club thing, everything is on the record, believe me, everything is on the record. Everybody's just ducking, ducking like hell. MR. BREWER-Ducking what? MR. SALVADORE-The issue of that waste water system built on that wetland, next to that wetland. MR. BREWER-Believe me, John, my opinion is that it has everything to do with that application, whether anybody says it does or it doesn't. MR. SALVADORE-These people stand here and say they don't know. MR. MACEWAN-Okay, Betty, lay it on us. MR. SALVADORE-One of the problems they're going to have is to get from their sump to their septic tanks, they're going across other people's property, namely the State of New York, and I don't think - 64 - they have an easement. MR. BREWER-I don't know that. MR. SALVADORE-The land is not contiguous. MR. MARTIN-Yes, well, they cross under a culvert, under the State right-of-way. MR. MACEWAN-We're ready for you. MRS. MONAHAN-Okay. I just wanted to talk to you gentleman and inform you that under this Town Administration, the Committee System is going to work. Your Committee, myself as Chairman, and Carol Pulver is the other member. We're interested in making this the best Planning Department, the best Planning Board, and the best Zoning Board in northern New York. Anything we can do to help, any problems you want to talk to us about, individually or as a Board, any assistance we can get for you, any resources. The first thing I'm going after, unless you guys tell me no, is an attorney for these Boards, and it's not the Town Attorney. Do you want one, or don't want one? MR. MACEWAN-I'd like one. MR. STARK-Why do you, why not use the Town Attorney? MRS. MONAHAN-I think it's a conflict of interest. I think sometimes the Town, with the Town Law, is in conflict with what is maybe good planning or what a Planning Board or Zoning Board wants, and I don't think an attorney can serve two masters. MR. STARK-So you would want an attorney to sit at the meetings? MRS. MONAHAN-Whatever you people think is necessary. certain projects. Maybe for MR. MACEWAN-I think we could have somebody, like, on an on call basis. There's a lot of meetings we get through very well on our own. There have been some meetings in the past where we certainly wish we had someone here. MR. BREWER-A couple of years ago, when we interviewed attorneys, and we discussed that, you never know. How do you know when you're going to need an attorney? I mean, you can pretty much, you can guess. MR. MARTIN-We had it where we were going to have attendance at all meetings, and review of applications as needed, as I recall. MR. BREWER-Right, and I think we discussed that, because, I mean, like I had no idea when I came to this meeting tonight that we were going to have the conflict, not a conflict, but the controversy we did about that bed and breakfast. I thought it was going to be in and out, bang. We were two and a half hours. Not that we should have allowed him to be two and a half hours, but we were. MR. RUEL-We should have someone here, some legal representation. MRS. MONAHAN-I'm thinking of your debate right now. Is a septic system something you can get into as part of the site plan. MR. MACEWAN-In my opinion, it's going to be. From my standpoint, because they want to expand the decks on that thing to allow more eating, more people to be there. MR. RUEL-I didn't see that. MR. MACEWAN-It's right on their application. That's what they want to do. They're adding more decks to the facility. - 65 - MR. HARLICKER-The Town Attorney said connection between what you want to application that is before the Board. that there review and has to be a the actual MR. BREWER-Yes, but isn't that pertinent to the application, Scott, to you? MRS. MONAHAN-The Town Attorney, I'm sorry, is not always right. I had a big go around with him about one thing, and I was right. MR. BREWER-Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm way off in left field, but I think it's pertinent to the application. MRS. MONAHAN-Carol and I are thinking that part of the policies and procedures for Planning and Zoning Boards will be that in order to be members, you will take a certain amount of training every year. MR. MACEWAN-That's State mandated now. MRS. MONAHAN-No, it isn't. It's not. MR. MACEWAN-Didn't it go into effect that you have to take so many hours of training now? MR. MARTIN-It's being considered. MR. MACEWAN-The last Planning and Zoning thing we went to, they talked about that, in that teleconference. MRS. MONAHAN-And what kind of training do you think YOU need. What kind of training new members need. These are all things we're talking to Jim about. We want your input. MR. BREWER-I think the last conferences that we went to at ACC were done very well, and they were well organized. MRS. MONAHAN-The one Dick Boos was there? MR. BREWER-That one, and the one. MR. MARTIN-The County sponsored a series of satellite hook ups. MR. BREWER-Yes, the satellite ones, and the one that Dick Boos was there. I thought that was excellent, and I think we should, if there's more available, I think we ought to go to them. MR. MARTIN-We could have that held at least annual, and maybe even semi-annually. He'll come, if it's organized through the County like it was before, where we have a consortium of communi ties together there. He'll come. MR. BREWER-I think we should try, ourselves, to organize one, maybe you can call Dan Kane or somebody. MR. MARTIN-We organized the last one, actually. driving force behind that before. We were the MR. BREWER-If we could be the driving force for one on SEQRA. MR. MARTIN-You know who's an excellent guy, that came down to talk to the Zoning Board, Joe Prall. He's the Regulatory Affairs Director from the Warrensburg Regional Office. MR. BREWER-I mean, what can it cost us? Can it cost us a couple of hundred bucks? MR. MARTIN-He should come talk to the Town Board, too. MRS. MONAHAN-And Joe Prall, because I called him one time with a question. He went and got some information from up above. We can - 66 - get the guys out of Albany. MR. BREWER-We can have the Town Board, the Zoning Board, the Planning Board, the Planning Staff. MR. MARTIN-You could always learn more about SEQRA. MR. BREWER-Yes. I mean, what could it hurt? MRS. MONAHAN-Well, actually, my information out of the State is that the State itself is doing work right now to revamp some of the SEQRA to make it more intelligible. MR. MARTIN-Where did Sandy Allen? MR. HARLICKER-She's down at DEC. MR. BREWER-She went to work for DEC. MRS. MONAHAN-She's down at DEC. MR. BREWER-She's an attorney for DEC. MRS. MONAHAN-Yes, but it's easy to get people out of Albany. MR. MARTIN-Well, you want the Regulatory Affairs people, that's the division you want, because they're the one's who understand the regulations. They farm out the reviews when it comes in. MR. BREWER-Well, it's good for us, though, because while we're sitting here doing this, it's excellent. MRS. MONAHAN-SEQRA can be very, very complicated, and you need to have good grounding in it to know what you're doing. MR. STARK-The Board's going to be up to full strength next month? MRS. MONAHAN-Yes. MR. MARTIN-We've since changed the format of the agendas a little bit to more reflect, like, what the Town Board does. MR. MACEWAN-I mean, like when we did those resolutions. you bang those things right off. I mean, MR. STARK-Okay. So you don't count them. You just count the site plans, old and new. MR. MARTIN-Actual review is done that night. MR. STARK-You don't want more than eight, that's for sure. MR. BREWER-Yes. I would like to keep it at eight. MR. MARTIN-We generally, right now, formally, we shuffle that around so we keep it at eight, and we try and balance the meeting, so we don't have, like, all larger projects, or more complicated projects all in one night. We try and balance them. MR. BREWER-I just thought I'd ask. That's all. MRS. MONAHAN-I think if you want that, it could be, I'm not the Town Attorney, but it could be part of the pOlicies and procedures and we adopt that in as part of the pOlicies and procedures. MR. MARTIN-It would be easy enough to resurrect. There was a law you had on the books before. It would just be a matter of, as a matter of fact, I think it was even, I thought there was discussion, I remember, at the time. of extending that. There was - 67 - ~'^".'-.-- legislation drawn up to extend it, and it was just never enacted. MR. BREWER-I'm not so much concerned about the amount of items. I'm concerned about the amount of time that we're here. I don't think we should be here until midnight. I don't think it's healthy for anybody. I don't think it's fair to any of us to be here until midnight. MRS. MONAHAN-I also don't think it's fair to the applicants. MR. BREWER-No. MRS. MONAHAN-Or the people who are against the applicant. You know what I mean? At that time of night, you just want to get out of here. MR. MARTIN-Right now, I think the Zoning Board has more of a problem in that regard than the Planning Board. MR. BREWER-Well, I don't know. Is there anything else anybody else wants? MR. MACEWAN-The attorney issue is something that we've grappled with in the past, we wanted to ask. MR. MARTIN-What we could do is, if you want to delve into that, we had some pretty good discussions on that, two years ago. We could pullout those minutes. MR. BREWER-Did you keep minutes then? MR. MARTIN-Well, we didn't, obviously, at the interviews, because that was in Executive Session, but we had discussed that, I remember, three or four meetings, before we actually began having the. MR. BREWER-We had some good discussions about it. MR. MARTIN-Before we actually conducted the interviews. MR. BREWER-And I can remember who we interviewed, Jimmy LaPann, Mark Schachner. MR. MARTIN-Peter Firth. MR. BREWER-Peter Firth. MR. MARTIN-And we were going to recommend Schachner. MR. BREWER-Schachner. MRS. MONAHAN-If you would like m~ to, not this week, I don't think, but maybe next week, I would call Mark. See if he is still interested, and what kind of financial arrangements could be made, not to promise him the job, but just give him information. MR. BREWER-We did discuss dollars with him, didn't we? MR. MARTIN-Well, there was an amount the Board was discussing about putting in the budget. I can't remember if it was $20,000 total for both Boards, Zoning Board and Planning Board, or how that was. MR. STARK-What happens if, halfway through the year, you go over that? MR. MARTIN-Well, that was the thing. We were going to try and strike a deal where it was like a retainer basis, or something like that. MRS. MONAHAN-I was going to say, you certainly, in the Town of - 68 - ~ ,~ -"'-- Queensbury, want an attorney that knows Planning and Zoning, and I will tell you, if you know anything about the Town of Kingsbury Planning Board, and the attorney they have, you know very well you want an attorney that's very versed in Planning and Zoning, and that will give you the right guidance. MR. BREWER-Didn't they get rid of Cusack? MRS. MONAHAN-He had a conflict of interest he never even told them about. It was the neighbors who had to bring up the point that his firm had done work for Galusha. He never divulged it. MR. BREWER-And that's not right. MRS. MONAHAN-I had a problem with that, when I heard that a Justice of the Peace of this Town was coming in front of the Board, because I don't think we permit that. MR. BREWER-He represents people all the time. MR. MACEWAN-Yes. He was in here for the Harrisena Church, Formula One Autobody he was in here for. On motion meeting was adjourned. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED, Timothy Brewer, Chairman - 69 -