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1994-04-06 SP QUEENSBURY PLANNING BOARD MEETING SPECIAL MEETING APRIL 6TH, 1994 INDEX Hudson Point Planned Unit Development 1. Aviation Mall Sand Hauling Discussion 25. THESE ARE NOT OFFICIALLY ADOPTED MINUTES AND ARE SUBJECT TO BOARD AND STAFF REVISIONS. REVISIONS WILL APPEAR ON THE FOLLOWING MONTHS MINUTES (IF ANY) AND WILL STATE SUCH APPROVAL OF SAID MINUTES. QUEENS BURY PLANNING BOARD MEETING SPECIAL MEETING APRIL 6TH, 1994 7:00 P.M. MEMBERS PRESENT TIMOTHY BREWER, CHAIRMAN GEORGE STARK, SECRETARY CATHERINE LABOMBARD JAMES OBERMAYER CRAIG MACEWAN ROBERT PALING EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR-JAMES MARTIN PLANNER-SCOTT HARLICKER PLANNER- SUSAN CIPPERLY STENOGRAPHER-MARIA GAGLIARDI HUDSON POINT PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPMENT PROJECT THOMAS NACE MR. NACE-Okay. Generally, what we've done, we've kept the basic concept of the plan Saratoga Associates had approved during PUD process. Their plan was to have a boulevard type access road coming in to a, stopping at a loop road that served the subdivision, and within that loop, to cluster the different types of housing that would be provided, or the different types of lots, being third acre lots here shown in the heavy shading, half acre lots in the lighter shading, and one acre lots in the open shading. We've kept that same basic concept. In fact, if you look at our plan, I think the back end of this is, with a few minor changes. is almost identical. What we've tried to do is to provide a more freely flowing access from the boulevard to realign the boulevard a little bit, and to revise some of the layout up in here so that it would accommodate that, plus that it would make better use of the topography in here. We do have, running down through here, there's a change in grade that's, where this is relatively eight or ten feet higher, and it comes down a little bank and flattens out in here. We've tried to accommodate some of that into the green space. We've tried to arrange the green space a little bit, so it gave better aesthetics to the entrance road, the entrance to the boulevard. So we've provided a green strip, all the way along that entrance boulevard, so that there won't be any frontage lots on the entrance boulevard, really, until you get over here. These lots, although they'll have frontage, will encourage access off of the cul-de-sacs, but all throughout this segment, there will be no frontage at all on the boulevard. MR. MARTIN-I think it's an important point that they're providing that little narrow green strip there on either side of the boulevard. That will be common space. . ownership of the Homeowners Association. Right? MR. NACE-That's right. That's correct. MR. MACEWAN-Now, the middle median, is that going to be planted as well, or is that asphalt, or what? MR. NACE-No, that will be planted. We will, in our landscaping plan, we'll present you with a plan of how we're going to do that planting. MR. MACEWAN-Would that be the same for everyone of the cul-de-sacs, too, the green space in there, is that all planted area? - 1 - MR. NACE-It'll be landscaped with some sort of low maintenance type of landscaping. We haven't finalized exactly what that's going to look like yet, but it will be landscaped in one way, shape or form. ALAN OPPENHEIM MR. OPPENHEIM-Yes. Just to add to that, I think, when possible, we're going to try and encourage saving as much natural vegetation as possible. So, if it works, and we've got some big old pine trees there. We're going to try and work with them. MR. MARTIN-The other thing that's retained, that was an important factor, the Town Board, I know, when this was going through was, there was an attempt on this, as you can see, to keep common, or access by as many lots as possible to a common center green area, and they've retained that again, too. MR. NACE-Pretty much what we've tried to do, through all this area, is give everybody access out their back yard into some common space, okay. The only area that we really haven't been able to accommodate that is some here along the back side of these third acre lots, but in general, we've kept everybody with access so they can put on a pair of Cross Country skis, go out their back door, and gain access to the green space and the common area throughout the subdivision. MR. OBERMAYER-What about the transmission lines? Are those going to be, I mean, that's going to be a common playground also. MR. NACE-Well, the transmission lines, right now, they are owned by NIMO. MR. OBERMAYER-Right. MR. NACE-And they will continue to be owned by NIMO. That's not an easement. That is right-of-way. So, it'll be green space. Obviously, NIMO maintains that as open for maintenance of the transmission mains, so you won't see planting trees under it. MS. CIPPERLY-Do they keep that free of vegetation down there, like spray herbicides on that? MR. NACE-They keep the brush down, okay, and that's along any transmission main. MR. MARTIN-They used to spray, and they don't anymore. MR. NACE-I don't think they spray. that they do. I think it's mostly cutting MR. MACEWAN-As a matter of fact, in the eight years I've lived up there, they've come through ~ and cut back shrubs. MR. MARTIN-Well, I think they, they used to put down a pretty, I don't know if toxic is the right word, but pretty strong, some sort of a liquid or something that really just took care of everything and that's why, even now, they, it's very low maintenance in through there. MR. NACE-I don't think they do that anymore, at least around the updated areas at all. MR. MARTIN-Another element that's retained in this, too, and it came out during the Town Board review, was there was a concern over setback from the power corridor, and it was a requirement that there be a 75 foot buffer, even from the edge of the right-of-way owned by NIMO, and that's maintained. MR. NACE-That' s correct. You'll see that in the back lines of these lots, these lots here, we've maintained that 75 foot minimum - 2 - "--" buffer. Where we can, we've provided more. MR. MARTIN-Now, Tom, did you actually reduce the length of road? MR. NACE-The length of boulevard has been reduced, okay, by, I think, six or seven hundred feet. The actual length of road, just because of the constraints of providing the green space and what have you, the actual length of road is about the same. We have eliminated the eyebrows up here, which Paul Naylor wanted to get rid of. Those are a real maintenance headache to try to plow those. So we got rid of those. I think the number of cul-de-sacs, if you look, is still the same. They are five cul-de-sacs, plus the one at McDonald, and we're still five. What we've done is added the cul-de-sac in here, where the eyebrows used to be, and combined the two cul-de-sacs that were in here into one, a little longer, cul-de-sac. MR. MARTIN-Could you take the Board through the phasing that you were talking about, and how you might have to work in the? MR. NACE-Phasing we're still working on. There are some options that we're, obviously, going to present to you a proposed phasing plan in the preliminary. There are a couple of alternatives, and some of it's going to be market driven by what lots sell during which time period. Obviously, the first phase will be to come in and come to the end of the boulevard, at least, get the McDonald subdivision revised, and getting this first cul-de-sac in here. That first phase may end there. It may go further. The next logical step would be either to come down here with a cul-de-sac, a temporary cul-de-sac somewhere in here, or even a dead end with a road here and bringing this cul-de-sac in, so that this was dead ended with the next phase. It would also be possible, if we wanted to get into the half acre lots, to come into here and maybe put this cul-de-sac in as a dead end. One of the options we're looking at is in the abandonment of the existing Sherman Island Road. We'll immediately go in, in the first phase, and dead head Sherman Island Road with a new cul-de-sac here, okay, regardless of what our eventual phasing is, but one of the options we're looking at in the phases subsequent to Phase I would be to possibly come in here and, say if we came in here, if this was Phase II, to come in and do this, Phase III miqht be to come down here, connect with Sherman Island Road, come back up Sherman Island Road here, and provide this as a temporary loop, so that you have safety fire access, and you don't go past the 1,000 feet dead end road, which you would do if you came all the way down to here with a cul-de-sac. So that may allow us the flexibility of being able to get these lots in here, without having to extend the road all the way around the back side. If we did that, I've talked to Paul Naylor about it, we'd have to, obviously, work out the legal requirements of keeping this portion under Town ownership until we're done using it as a temporary accessway, and we would probably, since we'll abandon, physically, abandon it, in the first phase here, we, very likely, would have to come back and do whatever repair or maybe repaving of portions of it are necessary, in order to bring this to usable standards, while we want to use it for a temporary. MR. MACEWAN-What will happen with that lower half of Sherman Island Road when you're all finished? It will actually physically be torn up, or just kind of filled over and seeded, or what? MR. NACE-When we're all finished, it will probably just be filled over and seeded. After discussing it with Paul Naylor, I think that's the most logical approach. MR. MARTIN-Will you be taking up that first section between the hammer head and the edge of your new road? MR. NACE-We would probably, yes. We, initially, would at least fill that in, okay, and re-establish some ground cover on it. - 3 - MR. MACEWAN-Is there going to be anything at the end of the cul-de- sac on Sherman Island to prevent traffic from continuing down through there? MR. NACE-Yes. We will, when we fill this in, and re-establish ground cover over that, we'll put a berm, a large enough berm there, that it will be physically impossible to go over it, and we may have to, at least temporarily, do something to prohibit trail bikes and that sort of thing, off road. That's a difficult issue, I know. MR. OBERMAYER-That's where everybody will be hanging out, all the kids. MR. MACEWAN-They do, now. MR. NACE-Obviously, for the security of the subdivision. MR. MARTIN-But you will be establishing the connection through McDonald, allowing that? MR. NACE-This would be in Phase I, we would be doing this cul-de- sac, doing the entrance road, and making this connection, okay. We don't want to abandon, we don't want to cut this off. MR. MARTIN-That's what I was saying, and I think that's an important feature to the traffic safety for the whole area, if that is opened up... MR. NACE-The other thing we've done here, if you'll notice, in redoing the McDonald subdivision, we wanted to realign this so that it made one intersection, so that we don't have a lot of turning movements off of the boulevard. MR. MARTIN-That's much cleaner. MR. NACE-We've got really two places that that happens, that we have turning movements. One would be right here, and one here. MR. MARTIN-And they're aligned intersections now. MR. NACE-They're aligned intersections. We do have a skew here that we just couldn't get rid of, but it still falls within it's acceptable standards to do that. We've also, in allocating green space, I'll point out, there were two foundations, one we've shown here, and the other was somewhere in here, that the Cultural Resources Study showed, and we've maintained those within the green space. The other feature, does somebody have a drawing SK2 that I could throw up here? Okay. MR. OBERMAYER-The area by the river, is that going to remain green space? MR. NACE-Yes. That's all in the dedication. MR. OBERMAYER-Is that going to be part of the development? MR. OPPENHEIM-Basically, those of you, I'm Alan Oppenheim, and I represent the Michaels Group interest in the project, and I'm working closely with the land owner, Niagara Mohawk, but essentially what we have, really, the area that encompasses this whole space here, which is approximately 97 acres of land, the intent there is to dedicate that to a third party, and NIMO is currently in the process of finalizing their arrangement with a group by the name of the Open Space Institute, that is out of, there's a lot of conservation and land trust work done, really, throughout the eastern part of the State. The intent would be to dedicate this to a third party, and at this point it looks to be the Open Space Institute. We'd still have to work with the Town, to get them comfortable with the program as well, with the idea of - 4 - that whole space being available for passive recreation, and that's something that, you know, we've had an awful lot of discussion on, to date, in terms of exactly what passive recreation will be, but everybody is in agreement that it's certainly not going to be used as a public park, and it's really just a question of fine tuning, as a group, between the development team, the Town, and this third party, exactly how that will work. MR. OBERMAYER-Is that going to be part of this project, though? Is that going to be.. MR. MARTIN-You want to pay very close attention and read thoroughly the developer's agreement. That's why I wanted to make sure you read that, because that lays out in detail the requirements of how this all came together and how this will come together. There's really two basic forms of land preservation here. There's the common space that's going to be retained under the ownership of the Homeowners Association, all right, and that's these areas predominantly in between the lots, but long about, in this area, and I think it's better shown here, this whole point and all that, that is going to be conservation area, owned by this third party, that has to be presented to the Town Board and agreed upon by them as an acceptable ultimate owner for that property, and those are, really, the two basic forms that came out of this. You want to thoroughly read that, because the numbers get a little confusing, 97 acres here, and I think there's 27 acres of open space by the Homeowners Association. So you want to read that and get those numbers thoroughly sorted out in your head. MR. PALING-What's the land on the left? What is that? MR. NACE-They're individual existing parcels. MR. MARTIN-Yes. That's this area here. MR. NACE-Corinth Road comes on down through here. MR. MARTIN-And then, as a matter of fact, you've got, this is Inspiration Park, the affordable housing. MR. OBERMAYER-Okay. shale? The land up there, is that sand, other than MR. NACE-No. It's sand. There are layers of cobbles in it, but it's 50, we went down 50 feet with a drill rig, and it was sand and cobbles mixed together. We did not, the deep boring was out here toward the Point, and we didn't hit, at 50 feet, we didn't hit groundwater, or any indication of groundwater. MR. MARTIN-As a matter of fact, as I recall, it was a concern that the soils were maybe too fast, and would have to be modified for. MR. NACE-Yes. As you were speaking, well, did you have another question for Alan? MR. MACEWAN-Yes. I wanted him to bring us up to date with what was going to happen with the commercial and the day care center area. We haven't heard too much about that. MR. OPPENHEIM-Well, I think this here is really a long term perspective. I mean, clearly, given the location on Corinth, and the level of activity there, there has been an identified need for some type of convenience, Stewarts-like, store. Whether that is a year from now or five years from now, the market is going to, the market's going to really drive that, but we all felt it was prudent, as did, working with the Town Board and Mr. Martin, to at least designate that area right along Corinth, have that commercial designation for something that's Neighborhood Commercial oriented, and really to just let the market drive that. So that's really as far as we're at on that. - 5 - .- MR. MACEWAN-So that could be, potentially, well beyond your Phase III or whatever? I mean, that could be, like, seven, eight years down the road. MR. OPPENHEIM-It could be. It's too early to say, and I think, given what we've gotten approved here, which is a zone change, at the point in time that the right use comes into place, we'd have to go through site plan process for that piece. MR. MARTIN-See, that whole idea was done with a broader concept in mind, and the area I always cite is the intersection of Dixon Road and Aviation Road, where you've got neighborhood type commercial uses available there to the people. You have a hardware store, a bank branch, a rather small grocery store, a Stewarts is there, and they basically service the population within a radius of that area, say maybe a quarter or even a half mile or something like that, and that was the same idea there, that people can go there and get staple, basic needs, you know, rather than have to go into the center shopping area with their car, create more traffic and more cumulative pollution and all that, that they can go here and take care of their basic needs, rather than have to get into the major shopping center. MR. OBERMAYER-Is that zoned Commercial around that potentially Neighborhood Commercial area? What's the zone? It's zoned Residential. So you just want that little? MR. OPPENHEIM-Just that small section. MR. MARTIN-It amounts to about two acres, doesn't it? MR. OPPENHEIM-Yes. MR. OBERMAYER-What kind of road frontage on Corinth is that right there? MR. NACE-There's about 100 feet. MR. OBERMAYER-One hundred feet. So, really, where would the access be to that? MR. NACE-The Town, in the review of that, has asked that we provide an access right-of-way from the end of our cul-de-sac here out through this strip of land to that frontage on Corinth Road, and what we've done is just to show that generally, how it could be laid out, and to show that when you do that, what you're left with out here are two one acre parcels on either side of that right-of- way, and your main frontage, for access, would be off the right-of- way, not off of Corinth Road, okay. This would just provide a road intersection for this access out on Corinth, and then the actual frontage for the commercial lots would be interior. MR. MACEWAN-Is that something the Town's requesting you do, is to have a road go in from there? MR. NACE-Well, the Town has requested that we provide for them the right-of-way to do that, that the Town could do at some time in the future, if they want it. MR. MARTIN-All they're required to do, at this point, is dedicate that 60 foot strip through there. MR. MACEWAN-Why would they want to do that? MICHAEL O'CONNOR MR. O'CONNOR-The Town actually wants a deed to it. MR. MACEWAN-Why would they want to do that, though? - 6 - - -- MR. O'CONNOR-For future options. MR. MACEWAN-For what? MR. OBERMAYER-Maybe a secondary access to the development off of Corinth Road. MR. MARTIN-Yes, I think that was the thinking. MR. OBERMAYER-Right now, you only really have one way to enter and leave the development. MR. MARTIN-There is usable property in that throat there. MR. OBERMAYER-Well, with the right-of-way, there's no way you're going to have enough room for commercial development. MR. NACE-What do you mean, on the frontage, on Corinth? MR. OBERMAYER-On the frontage, yes. MR. NACE-No. There's no way. You've got 100 feet of frontage. MR. MARTIN-And you wouldn't want that. You wouldn't want the main access coming right off of Corinth Road. You'd want the access to come in off of that. MR. OBERMAYER-How far away is the next commercially zoned piece of property from this area right here? MR. NACE-Quite a ways. MR. MARTIN-Probably that Neighborhood Commercial. MR. NACE-. .to Northern Distributing. MR. OBERMAYER-There's a little deli, West Mt. Deli right there. MR. 0' CONNOR-. . variance for a preexisting lot. there's any actual zoning. I don't think MR. MARTIN-Light Industrial's the closest. The nearest commercial might be that area I cited, along Dixon Road. MR. NACE-That could be. That's right, and that's quite a ways from here. MR. OPPENHEIM-It seems as if there's definitely,..with the amount of growth that has happened out there, it would make sense. MR. MARTIN-Well, see, you've got Bedford Close Phase III that is right across the street from there, essentially. MRS. LABOMBARD-That's what ~ would like to know, is where is the intersection of West Mountain Road? There it is. MR. NACE-It's right here. MR. MARTIN-So, I mean, if you get this project built out. You get Bedford Close built out, there's going to be quite a population of people there, and like I say. MR. NACE-And even if this only ends up being a cul-de-sac back here for access to these commercial lots, it's served some purpose. MR. MACEWAN-What's that strip there, right there at the throat of that? Can that be rezoned to be Commercial or Neighborhood Commercial, the throat right there, the access, that right-of-way. Is there enough room there to build maybe another couple of lots in there? - 7 - ~ '-./ MR. MARTIN-Yes, there's probably got to be almost three acres. MR. OBERMAYER-I mean, I would think Corinth Road would be a better place for commercial than a residential road. MR. NACE-I think the commercial's got to be easily visible, and right close to that. MR. OBERMAYER-That's going to be part of this project, is that what you're saying, or entirely segregated? MR. NACE-Well, it's, the zoninQ, the PUD zoning for that commercial is part of this project, okay. The actual development of this, as commercial properties are subject to site plan review. MR. OPPENHEIM-And from a really feels like it's, I the remaining housing. right on top of a little practical standpoint, I mean, this is mean, that's quite a distance from any of So it's not as if you feel like you're commercial piece. MR. OBERMAYER-The neighbors, though, right there, might feel like they're right on top of it. MR. MACEWAN-There's not a lot of houses right in that area. MR. OPPENHEIM-Not right in this area. MR. NACE-There's one little house here, I think. MRS. LABOMBARD-Where's the horse farm, and where's the water works? MR. OPPENHEIM-This is the horse farm right here. It comes in right here. MRS. LABOMBARD-Okay. MR. O'CONNOR-The layout of the 60 foot road will be part of this approval process, the actual development of those two lots, unless there comes a buyer. That wouldn't necessarily be at this time. MR. NACE-Yes. That's what this is. MR. OBERMAYER-Okay. So the zoning of it, being commercial, would not be part of this project? MR. NACE-No. The zoning is already. MR. OBERMAYER-It's already commercial. MR. NACE-That's what I'm saying. The zoning is part of what's been done. The development is not part of the plans. We're just showing it on these plans to show you where it's at, to show you, we've been required to layout this right-of-way. We just want to show you that the commercial parcels that are left here fit in well with the right-of-way. MR. OPPENHEIM-I think, just to finish up to your original question, this still, now that we do finally have the zone changed, the planning there is still in its infancy. We're doing additional market studies to really get a handle on whether this is going to be, we have the abil i ty, I think, through the zone change, to accommodate up to, I think it was either 75 or 100, 75. Whether or not it's going to end up that large remains to be seen. That, again, is going to be a market driven thing. MR. MACEWAN-Is that something you would develop, though? MR. OPPENHEIM-Well, it would be the intent, I think. Clearly, the master developer of the project would be the one who would provide that for the homeowners and, obviously, the thing that has to be - 8 - '- .~" carefully analyzed is, any improvements that you make to the common elements of the property, from a market perspective, you put in a community building, you've got the upkeep, the maintenance, and you just want to be sure that that's adding enough value to the end product to justify the additional homeowner fees. MR. MARTIN-I would say you'd have no problem selling a 75 slot day care facility there, with Inspiration Park right around the corner. MR. BREWER-You show on the map on the right, Alan, a two acre parcel for the day care center. On the map on the left, it's that lot? MR. NACE-Well, the lot itself hasn't been depicted exactly, okay. This is just the general area. MR. OPPENHEIM-This is just the label. I don't want to confuse you, Tim. MR. NACE-You're talking about this, and, again, here, it wasn't really. . . MR. BREWER-Where the borrow pit is. MR. OPPENHEIM-That's the same location. MR. NACE-It's the same location. MRS. LABOMBARD-It doesn't seem to, the road doesn't seem to curve. MR. OPPENHEIM-You're looking at a different scale, too. So it is deceptive, because you're looking at a different scale. MR. BREWER-It looks like it's on the other side of the road, I mean, like it's those four lots, if you look at that, and then you look at that. MR. NACE-Right. If you look, this road is flatter in back. It comes down further, closer to this line than our layout. Our layout stays up the road. This curve stays up a little higher, and then, because they were down further. They dipped down and came back up. MR. MACEWAN-What is your intent, if you decided to go with a community center? I mean, is it just basically a meeting hall type building or something like that? MR. OPPENHEIM-Well, I think a community center, that's more of a generic term, to the degree that, I mean, one of the thoughts for this area is to have some type of community amenity, such as tennis court, okay. So, in addition to that, it's nice to have a building where people can go in and congregate. Very simple. Nothing fancy, but just kind of an area where people can get together, and if people are walking through the community, it's nice to have a place to, particularly in the winter, if they're cross country skiing, to stop and grab a hot chocolate or something like that. MR. MACEWAN-Did you guys do the Interlaken development down in Saratoga? MR. OPPENHEIM-No. MR. MACEWAN-They have a community center down there. Do you know which one I'm talking about? MR. OPPENHEIM-Yes. community center. I know the project. I haven't been in their MR. MACEWAN-It's a small building. It's got, like, a little kitchenette place, it's got a separate meeting room, and then it's - 9 - "- ~ got a large meeting room that could accommodate maybe up to 75 people in there or something. MR. OPPENHEIM-Yes. I haven't been in there. is probably similar. I imagine the theme MR. OBERMAYER-Is this going to be like an though? Not necessarily a community center, center? Association center it's an Association MR. OPPENHEIM-Well, I think that the distinction there, when we say, community center, that's a good point, because, in many respects, I mean, this is, this line here, and, actually, it's this land plus everything below this line, that is going to go to a third party, that will be available for passive recreation. Now that goes beyond just the members of the Hudson Point community, okay. That is something that could be used by members of the public. In contrast, everything within here, and Jim threw out the number, 27 acres of land, will be controlled and owned by members of this community. So, it's, there will be a Homeowners Association offering plan and prospectus has to be put together, and so that will be included within that package. MR. MARTIN-Yes, because you're, essentially, creating another lot there, really, that's going to comprise all that homeowners open space in the center. MR. OPPENHEIM-Another taxable lot. MR. OBERMAYER-So, like, people from Bedford Close aren't going to be utilizing that community center? It's more exclusive. MR. OPPENHEIM-No. One of the issues to be addressed will be, as far as the community center goes, when we talk about day care, will be, it may well make sense to expand that beyond just the members of the community, and to offer day care to folks outside the community, and that's something that hasn't been determined, at this point. MR. MARTIN-There's a double edged sword to that. People may view that as a thing that lowers the value of their property in this community. MR. OBERMAYER-I would think so. The only thing is, though, I mean, the lot sizes are very small and so the houses are going to be fairly small when you're looking at the lot size of 14,000 square feet. Is that type of people, I mean, are they, you know, the smaller ranch houses, are they looking for an exclusive community center? I mean, maybe Bedford Close? MR. NACE-Fourteen thousand square feet compromises, it's a third acre lot, and that comprises a lot of the lots that have been developed in Queensbury, in reality. MR. OBERMAYER-But I'm talking more like Bedford Close doesn't seem like an exclusive community. MR. OPPENHEIM-Well, one of the things we've tried to do here, and I guess when you say exclusive community, we've worked hard, particularly in this market. I mean, it's important to have some diversity of product type, and to be able to offer that diversity, to establish absorption to create, really, while we don't, in our original concept we had town homes. That's no longer part of the puzzle here, but we've got the smaller lots here that we expect to be more reasonably priced, a third of an acre, then the half acre lots in here, and the one acre lots here, and so there is going to be some diversity, in terms of the types of single family homes there, but one of the other things has been, and our level, I've been more active down in the Albany market, but one of the things we're seeing down there is a lot of folks don't want as much land - 10 - -- '--' anymore and that doesn't, land, so if you say a third of an acre, that doesn't automatically insinuate that you're going down in quality, because there is a market out there for people who want to be part of a nice community, have a nice home, but not have a lot of land that they own and need to maintain, and they like the idea of being part of a community where a lot of it's commonly owned and maintained. MR. MARTIN-Alan, can you speak, at all, as to what's going to be done to give this a feeling of a true planned community? I mean, what aspects of, I mean, to what level is this going to be planned? I mean, are we talking about coordinated signage and street lighting? I mean, what extent is this going to? MR. OPPENHEIM-Well, I think the, it's a good question, and I think to make this project successful, as a planned unit community, there's got to be some continuity, in terms of the signage. Street lighting is still something that's being evaluated, and, obviously, the level is financial consideration, but they're clearly are going to be a strong and detailed fabric of covenants and restrictions that are going to run with the property, that are going to talk about what people can and cannot do in their yards, and identifying some guidelines for, to the degree that some of the lots were sold off to a different builder, and a different builder were to get involved in the project, you want to be sure that there's some guiding continuity for the project. So that's, you know, that's really the intent, at this point in time. MR. MARTIN-Are we going to have elevations of typical houses built throughout the? MR. OPPENHEIM-Yes, you will. MR. MARTIN-I wouldn't normally ask that, but I think in this event, we've got, you've heard me say this before, that this is supposed to be this community's best attempt at planning. MR. OPPENHEIM-Yes, and I think that that's something that we'll have as we get further into the process. MR. MARTIN-Okay. MR. OBERMAYER-Do those transmission lines, do they come from across the river, or is there a substation back on the river, on the side of the river? MR. NACE-The generating plant's right here. The dam's right here. MR. OBERMAYER-So how is NIMO going to continue to access their substation? MR. NACE-They have a separate access, here, that comes in. MR. MARTIN-That's supposed to be the road used for construction, as well. MR. NACE-That's right. MR. MACEWAN-So, phasing is still up in the air, as to how many phases we're going to be looking at for this thing, I mean, where you're going to start and what you're going to do first? MR. NACE-Where we're going to start, really, is pretty obvious. That's a given. It's just how far we come with that first phase, whether it's just this to here, or whether we extend it down a little ways, and then how the phases are sequenced beyond that. We've worked up a lot of options. and now we're just kicking them back and forth. MR. MACEWAN-I'm assuming you're looking to come in front of us here - 11 - -.- ~ in another month or so? MR. NACE-Yes. MR. MACEWAN-What's going to happen with the McDonald subdivision? MR. NACE-That will come to you concurrently. What we will do is have a final plan for this, which, you know, is a one shot modification of an existing subdivision. MR. MACEWAN-That kicks it into the subdivision process allover again, with the modification, is that not right? MR. O'CONNOR-I don't think so. We've been through that a couple of times. We've done it before by filing a modified map with letter asking for approval of modifications, with the engineering detail. MR. MARTIN-It's been typically done as a modification, and a one step process, depending on how much information is needed. I mean, obviously, if they don't get everything the Board needs, then it would be delayed until you have everything you need, but, typically, it's been a one step process, and the thing that has been added, recently, with State Law, is this is the time yoU~ have another public hearing. MR. MACEWAN-Section 267. MR. MARTIN-Yes. MR. MACEWAN-Actually, it kicks it into, they typify it as a major or minor modifications, and it kicks it into, it's in the process allover again, right from Sketch right on through, and with the changing of the lot lines and the new road configurations, I would consider it a major modification. I don't see a problem with it going through, but I think you should start the process. MR. O'CONNOR-That seems to be contrary to prior resolutions from this Board, where we've had it before this Board twice to advise the Board that we will be coming in for a modification, and I think the last time, I think, it was Ed LaPoint who made the resolution, kind of specified what the specifications and what not would be for this submittal. MR. MACEWAN-In all fairness, though, that plan's changed a couple of times since then, too. MR. O'CONNOR-The modification has not changed significantly. MR. OBERMAYER-Well, maybe you could just show us what has changed. MR. NACE-Well, as I pointed out before, the extent to which we're modifying the subdivision has not changed at all, okay. The area of lots that we're working on is still the same. It's from here on out. The only thing that we have really changed, and the concept of the lot layout is still the same. We've got a cul-de- sac on this side for access to all the lots with interior access, and we're making a connection to the boulevard from the existing road. The only thing that's changed is now instead of having the cul-de- sac access the boulevard up here, we're bringing it down here so that, obviously, these lot configurations have changed. MR. MACEWAN-What resolution are you referring to that we approved, or that we voted on? Did we pass the resolution? MR. O'CONNOR-Yes. MR. MACEWAN-What was the resolution in reference to? MR. O'CONNOR-What would be necessary for modification and was this Board in favor of modification. The changes that we have. - 12 - ~ MR. MARTIN-I think it comes to a matter of substance. As long as this Board gets all the information it needs, whether you put steps to that, I really don't care. I think, as long as we can get the information we need, and if that's a one step process, fine, but this Board is not going to vote on this until it feels comfortable it's got all the information it needs, the engineering review has been done, and a public hearing's been held. I, quite frankly, don't see the need for three steps, as long as all the issues are addressed and a public hearing is held. Now, if that can be done in the context of one meeting. and that would mean they'd have all their ducks in a row, then, fine, but if they don't, then it's tabled until whatever information's missing is provided, but I don't know that there's, steps is the actual key here. It's what information is needed, and if proper engineering is done, and the stormwater is looked at. and that type of thing, those are the real issues. MR. MACEWAN-So you're basically saying that we should be able to do this in a one step process? MR. MARTIN-I think so. I'm not saying one meeting, necessarily, but a one step process including a public hearing. MR. 0' CONNOR-The changes that are proposed are actually less changes than what were initially proposed, Craig. If you remember, in the beginning, we were going to disconnect it from Sherman Island Road, and we were going to disconnect and put cul-de-sacs on the end of each of those, and have only the entrance from Corinth Road. Now after the modifications that the Town suggested, the Town Board requested, we are going to leave the traffic pattern intact within the subdivision and the only thing that we're going to change on this subdivision at all is that, instead of a cul-de- sac, on the most westerly end of the southerly part of that subdivision, we now have a boulevard that goes out to Corinth Road, which is a winlwin situation, because it then allows the people that are on Sherman Island Road to access Corinth Road through the new entrance, as opposed to the entrance which is a bad safety feature of the existing Sherman Island Road and, in fact, it allows not only the people on Sherman Island Road, but I think there's one or two small roads off of Sherman Island Road. Now, they can use this. It also allows the school bus system to come in through our subdivision to go into that, and I think the school bus system may even go back out through our road. MR. MARTIN-I think the intent was, I don't know how the school system handles their school bus stop, but was to, the thinking was to have the pick up now at that intersection of Sherman, right here, rather than now I think it's at the top. isn't it, Tim, at the curve, and that would be a safer situation. MR. MACEWAN-They drop off the kindergartners there, at that intersection. MR. BREWER-Just to enlighten you, the grade school kids, they do pick up. They come into the subdivision that's there now, because there is a kid, it's not on the map there. MR. MACEWAN-Yes. There's a kid at the end of the cul-de-sac, down at Morningside Circle. MR. BREWER-Mornings ide Circle, there's a child that lives there that goes to grade school. So, therefore, he has to pick up that child, so it does pick up the other children in there. MR. O'CONNOR-But that's a real winlwin situation, as far as traffic goes. MR. MARTIN-And the other thing is, I think what will happen is, and what is hoped is that the actual net traffic on Sherman Island Road will actually be less, because, just as one thing, the NIMO trucks - 13 - will now be coming through their service road, and it will be only the neighborhood traffic on Sherman Island Road. MR. MACEWAN-I've got a good question for you. I do know that, during the summer months, there's a pretty good line of traffic that will come down there in the evening, because there's people who have camps down there along the river, and they access those camps through that NIMO right-of-way where the gate is on the other side of the power lines, which you'd have to go down past the last house on Sherman Island, and there's a dirt road through the woods there on the left. How are they going to get down in through there now? MR. OPPENHEIM-They're going to, I mean, the intent really is those folks. There's just a few camps down there. MR. NACE-There's only one. It's right down on, right there. Well, there's a camp and then there's a couple of trailers. Those are leases. MR. OPPENHEIM-They're going to be terminated. MR. 0' CONNOR-They're temporary leases. The intent is to remove them, demolish them, clean up the areas where the camps are. Timing wise, I don't know, Tim, when that's going to take place. MR. OPPENHEIM-Well, the gears are in motion now. MR. O'CONNOR-Are they, to discontinue? MR. OPPENHEIM-Yes, they are. MR. O'CONNOR-I think that also will. MR. BREWER-So, presumably, they will be not there this summer? MR. OPPENHEIM-Presumably, process is going to work. ago, has already notified given them a time table. but it remains to be seen how that NIMO, and we just discussed this a week the folks of exactly what's going on and MR. MARTIN-What are the mechanics of that? lease buyout required? Is there an actual MR. OPPENHEIM-No. I think they're just on a temporary lease, almost like a month by month or day by day. MR. MARTIN-Just a thirty days notice type thing? MR. OPPENHEIM-Yes. There's nothing formal in place there. MR. O'CONNOR-If they're like what I've seen, there's some type of letter agreement that says that on thirty days notice they can be terminated, but the people have some period of time to choose to remove the improvement, if they want to, and I don't know how long a period it is. MR. OPPENHEIM-The hope is that they'll take everything with them. MR. O'CONNOR-If you go further out Corinth Road, there are a couple of real nice homes that have been built on the same basis. I looked at those, fifteen years ago, or ten years ago, or something like that, and I was amazed at the homes that have been built on the basis of thirty days notice. You move it in so many days, I forget how many days, but there's a couple of homes. I don't know, mechanically, time wise, but that's something that they're addressing. MR. OPPENHEIM-Yes. - 14 - MS. CIPPERLY-Could you show, on that map, where the open space is, how much of that? MR. OPPENHEIM-See these diamonds that go through? It's everything on this side of the diamonds. So it really, if you were to follow this, it's everything on the other side of that. MR. MARTIN-Tom, does this line here follow this southern boundary of that lot follows this? MR. NACE-Exactly. These lots along the back. MR. MARTIN-This is basically in the same exact location, this little opening here. MR. NACE-Yes, pretty much. That's right. MRS. LABOMBARD-Could you explain to me the accessibility of the whole development, especially the three acre and the one acre lots to the river? I mean, who actually owns that green space. I know you've answered that question. Would you answer that again for me. MR. NACE-That's Alan. That's the green space that's going to be dedicated to a third party, a conservation group. MRS. LABOMBARD-Like ADK or something like that? MR. OPPENHEIM-Like ADK, yes. The group that we've made reference to, whom Niagara Mohawk has been talking with, is the Open Space Insti tute, which is a larger version of a local land trust. I mean, they are a very significant entity that's well capitalized. They really, what they do in a lot of cases, is they come in and they put together a management plan, and in some instances, they stay and retain ownership forever. In other instances, they put together the management plan for the Town, and then if there's a local land trust that wants to take title, then they'll turn it over to them. MR. MARTIN-See, what I thought was important for whoever that group is or entity is, that they do have a planning function or planning skill. So a planning can be developed for that area, whatever that may be, even if it's as simple as just preservationlconservation, and how is that accomplished. MR. OPPENHEIM-Really, I mean, truthfully, the way it's been talked about today is the Open Space Institute, coincidentally, uses Saratoga Associates to do a lot of their open space planning, and Saratoga Associates, who, they've been involved in the concept plan for this site, from Day One, has done an awful lot of management plans for passive recreation use. They've done a lot of this for Niagara Mohawk for other Niagara Mohawk lands. So, really, it's accomplished by the Open Space Institute putting, somebody employing Saratoga Associates to put together a management plan identifying the most suitable spots for walking and passive recreation areas, so that trails can be constructed accordingly. MRS. LABOMBARD-Because I'm just wondering how it would be monitored? I could see myself in there, ten years ago, with a ten year old son and all his buddies building forts, going down to the river, playing down there. I'd be a wreck, thinking they drown, thinking they'd, believe me, they could conjure up anything, and that's what my question is, who is there to monitor it, to supervise it? I mean, even though it's all on paper, these people aren't patrolling? MR. OPPENHEIM-They're not patrolling, but I think a couple of things. One, the powers of enforcement are put in a few different entities hands. The Town, the owner of the lands, the folks in this community, everybody has a vested interest in that, and I think everybody is going to be interested in ensuring the fact that - 15 - it is, so called, passive recreation. Because believe me, somebody who buys a lot here, a big appeal to being there is knowing that you've got 97 acres, and if you go out there, and you see a bunch of teenagers horsing around, you're motivated to do something about that. MRS. LABOMBARD-So that isn't woods in thereZ MR. OPPENHEIM-It is. It is all woods. So your question is, how do you know? MR. MACEWAN-It's safe to say that probably with the amount of concerned citizens that have been fOllowing this project through from the start, they're certainly going to be following it through long after it's done. MR. MARTIN-You've got to go out there to appreciate it. definitely an attractive area. It's MRS. LABOMBARD-I know it is. I pass there every day. MR. MARTIN-That was discussed, that was, almost the same exact words were spoken during the Town Board meetings on this, and at first, if you could have seen the initial plan, there were, how many lots out here, 16 lots, way in the long ago? They had 16 lots out here, then it went to 8, and then the ma;or revision was done and they shifted everything away, and it was always acknowledged that, even today people go down there. You're never going to keep people off of this. It's an attractive place to be, and so, the general thinking was that, to keep pushing the lots as far away from the shoreline as he could. That's the best form of preservation. MR. OPPENHEIM-Betty Monahan has also volunteered to be full time in supervising that. MR. O'CONNOR-One thing, Cathy, that's kind of self restricting is the fact that there's limited access to that. People, to get down there, are going to have to come through the subdivision, for the most part. MRS. LABOMBARD-I see that, now. MR. 0' CONNOR-Unless they, there probably are ways th·at you could hike across the wetland that you come in from the Church, I think the Church property is on the other side of Clendon Brook, there. You might be able to hike through there, but there aren't going to be big parties hiking through there. People who live in there are going to have a self interest to police what's going on. MR. NACE-I lived next to the Water Shed property, Glens Falls Water Shed property, for 15 years and believe me, when kids got a little rambunctious out back, you let somebody know about it. MS. CIPPERLY-What's the thinking behind the one large..? MR. NACE-This here? There's a zone line that you see shown here. Everything here is one acre. Everything here is three acre, and that's just to comply with that zoning, because I think the three acre zoning, this particular Waterfront Residential Three Acre is outside of the PUD Ordinance. Am I correct? MR. MARTIN-Yes. MR. NACE-So, this had to remain three acre lot zoning. You also, in that same token, you'll see a building line, what we called a building line here across this one acre lot, simply to be a building setback, in that the portion of that lot below that line is in the three acre zone. So in order for this to comply as a one acre building lot, the house has to be located north of that line. - 16 - '-- ~/ MR. BREWER-Also, just to let the people know, here, there are five archeological sites on that point also, just so that you know. You're protecting them also. MR. MARTIN-Yes, they're indicated. MR. OBERMAYER-Yes. They show that. MR. MARTIN-That was the other reason for the conservation area. That encompassed all of them. MR. PALING-What are those, like digs, or what is it in that case? MR. OPPENHEIM-Well, they found things such as arrowheads. MR. PALING-A fence, what is it, protection, a fence? MR. NACE-No, no. MR. OPPENHEIM-I think, the areas will be identified, and, essentially, a buffer is established, in that they, really, there was a substantial amount of investigation. There were two phases of analysis where an archeologist has been out on site, first identifying the fact that there was something there, and then identifying the extent of the locations, and the indians tended to be along the bluffs. So, those areas will be identified by survey, with the appropriate buffer, and left in their existing state. MR. O'CONNOR-They may not be marked. If you follow the State's suggestion, you can map them, but they don't want to mark them too obviously because then you get a lot of volunteers out there digging them up. The preferred method is to actually leave them intact. MR. MARTIN-It's a very interesting thing to watch done. Tim and I were out there when they were right in the midst of a dig, and they get out a, they do it by meters, like you have a two meter by one meter area or something like that, and they dig it out perfectly square and they take out every little thing, and they found, he showed this thing to me. It looked like a rock, and he said, this was an edge of a cutting instrument, and if you look really closely, you can see where somebody chipped away, and they were trying to make like a head of an axe on it, or something like that, and then he was saying there was, like, dark soil in a cross section of the soil, and I thought it was black dirt. He said, no, that is where someone built a camp fire. MR. MACEWAN-How deep were they? MR. MARTIN-They were, probably, what, two feet, at the most, but it was fossilized, like, a little bit, you could see a few inches under the surface of the soil was this oval outline with what could have been a camp fire. (TAPE TURNED) MR. O'CONNOR-.. .early, early Native Americans. MEMBER OF PUBLIC MEMBER OF PUBLIC-Down on that lower level, right out on the point, when I was a kid, there was a pit that was probably 25, 30 yards wide of white, white sand, and every time it rained you could go down there and pick up a cigar can, or a tobacco can full of flint, and it would be various kinds of flint, nothing that came from ~ area, a white variety of sand. MR. MACEWAN-Is that pretty much it? - 17 - '-- --./ MR. NACE-Yes. I think we just wanted to, before we start our major effort here in the design process, we wanted to make sure that everybody had a chance to look at it. MR. MARTIN-I can't stress enough, though, to read those documents, those three documents. MR. PALING-Lets make sure we understand which documents you're talking about, because this is the only thing I've got, this, this, and I've got a couple of letters. MR. MACEWAN-Alan, do you have a revised, kind of like outline of what you're intent was with the development of that, in terms of housing types, development? Not the Full Environmental Impact Statement. MR. OPPENHEIM-Probably part of our initial submission that was prepared by Saratoga Associates.. overview work to date. Craig, probably the best thing really is the Final EIS document that was submitted. I mean, that is, it's not a summary, but I think for anyone who really wants to. MR. O'CONNOR-You've got the SEQRA Findings Statement, March 7th. You've got the Hudson Point Planned Unit Development agreement, and you've got the resolution approving the Hudson Point. MR. MARTIN-Those are the three I was speaking to. MR. O'CONNOR-Those are the three documents that actually set forth the zoning for this property. MR. MARTIN-And the major shift came between the Draft EIS and the Final EIS. That's when the major shift came from 163 units down to 96. MR. OPPENHEIM-The Final EIS would have all the information that you'd be looking for. MR. MACEWAN-I think what I would like for these three new members is a copy of that, plus a copy of the McDonald Subdivision map, so that they know what's going on there, before we do site visits, if you can, because we'll take them down there and show them the area. You're looking to come back in front of us, what, in May, first meeting in May, I'm assuming. MR. OPPENHEIM-And I think if you want to go out and, I mean, whatever works best for you, but, certainly. if you're going to do a site visit, and you want us to attend, let me know. MR. MACEWAN-I don't know if we'll actually walk it. There's still a lot of snow down there. MR. PALING-Now, when we see you again, what will you be asking for? MR. NACE-Okay. We're going to be submitting to you, okay, a couple of things. First will be the preliminary plan, which is really the major engineering plans for the entire subdivision, everything you see here. In that will be a separate plan that we're going to ask you for final approval for a McDonald revision. Okay. MR. BREWER-How come no Sketch, Tom? MR. NACE-Sketch, if you look at your regulations, Sketch is the PUD. MR. BREWER-The Planning Board didn't approve a Sketch Plan, though. MR. NACE-No, but if you look in your PUD Regulations, you go directly from the PUD Ordinance to the preliminary plans. - 18 - '-- -.-/ MR. BREWER-This doesn't follow the regular Subdivision Regulations? MR. MARTIN-No. A PUD, after it comes to the Town Board, it comes in at Preliminary Site Plan they call it. MR. NACE-And that's really why we're here tonight. Okay. We didn't feel it was totally fair to come in with a complete. MR. BREWER-No. I'm just questioning why, I mean, usually we get a subdivision from Sketch, Preliminary, and Final. This goes right to Preliminary, and I was wondering why. MR. NACE-This is labelled in your regulations as Site Plan, okay. What you're going to see at Preliminary will be a site plan, but in reali ty, it's reviewed under the Preliminary Subdivision standards. So, what you'll see is a preliminary plan. In essence, what you're seeing here is really Sketch Plan. So you'll see preliminary engineering drawings for that parcel. MR. MARTIN-See, that's what happened. The Sketch Plan came with the, before it even went to the Town Board. That's what we approved in a report to the Town Board. MR. BREWER-Boy, that was so much different than this, Jim. MR. NACE-That's why we're here. MR. BREWER-I understand that. MR. NACE-So we'll hit preliminary plans, the final plan, or plan for final approval on McDonald, and then we'll also have phasing plans, okay, that'll show you our phasing concept, because, after preliminary site plan is approved, then the next time we come back will be for final approval of Phase I. MR. PALING-Now the McDonald Subdivision will be just a layout. You're going to modify that? MR. NACE-Well, no. It'll be complete engineering. MR. MARTIN-We want to thoroughly raise, too, going into this, is Article VIII, which picks up with 179- 51, and we're going to probably be starting at, technically speaking, 179-58, Site Plan approval process. MR. PALING-179-51 and 58? MR. MARTIN-Well, I'd start at 179-51, but 179-58 in that whole scheme of the PUD process, that's where they're picking up with now, but you want to read that whole thing and that'll give you the background as to how we got to where we are, and where we have to go from here, it was part of the application. MR. 0' CONNOR-Tom, it might answer that question more. Wi th McDonald, I don't think you have to do the whole thing, because I don't think there's any changes at all. MR. NACE-No, from here, from this line out. MR. O'CONNOR-I think if you showed from here down, out that way, like, even like that, because all this doesn't change at all. MR. MACEWAN-I'd prefer that they show everything, especially when we have three new Board members. MR. O'CONNOR-Okay, but I'm just saying, we're not modifying this up here. We're not going to provide drainage up there different than what's already there. This is already a Town road, that's already a dedicated road that's been accepted by the Town Board. In fact, from here down. - 19 - -- --" MR. MACEWAN-What are you referring to, to showing only that lower portion, with reference to what? MR. O'CONNOR-We've got to show, from an enqineerinq point of view, that we are going to properly handle the drainage as it's created here. MR. MACEWAN-Okay. I thought you were talking about a drawing just of that portion. MR. 0' CONNOR-That shows the road configurations and everything else. Maybe it's just as well to put it all on one map. I just don't think we want to get into thinking that, I don't know what this engineering is up here, but that's a Town road that we're not going to change. MR. OPPENHEIM-See, I think, and this is a question, I don't know how it works better for you, but, I mean, isn't that really the line, Tom, that we're talking about? MR. NACE-Yes. What we've got to do, though, and I think, probably, for clarity, and I have no problem with doing this. What we'll show you is, if you want to see the entire subdivision, fine. We're going to show you one drawing of the entire existing subdivision as a removal drawing to show you what portions of the road, what portions of the water line, fire hydrant, etc., we're having to remove, okay, and then we'll show you a drawing of what we're proposing that shows from, it'll, again, show the rest of it as existing, but it'll highlight from where we're starting our changes on out, show you the changes. MR. MACEWAN-Kind of like an overlay thing? MR. NACE-Right. Exactly. Okay. MR. O'CONNOR-We're going to have to pick up parts of that cul-de- sac back from the Town. MR. NACE-Yes. There's got to be a land trade there. MR. O'CONNOR-We're going to get that abandoned by the Town. MR. NACE-That's right. MR. O'CONNOR-The other thing which we would do some place along the same line, and probably as part of this Phase I, is construct that hammerhead, that ending of Sherman Island. MR. NACE-Yes. That's part of Phase I, to dead end this and construct a cul-de-sac. MR. O'CONNOR-I don't know if that's going to come, you want to see it and give it a blessing, that'll have to go through Town Board action also, because that's a separate process entirely, the abandonment of the roadways. The Town Board will have to do that. MR. MACEWAN-The thing that you guys were talking about, though, that was one of your concerns, was that you were going to use a portion of the Sherman Island Road during the construction aspect. So, can they abandon that? MR. O'CONNOR-I would want them to abandon it as a public highway, okay, and if Tom and Naylor and everybody works out a way that we can work it into a loop system on a temporary basis, what we would do is we would still own it, but we would give you a, or give the Town a temporary easement, like you do on temporary cul-de-sacs, until the next phase gets kicked in. MR. BREWER-So then what do you do? You take the berm down and then reberm it? - 20 - MR. MARTIN-No. He's just talking about that metal portion staying open. MR. NACE-This will get constructed and this bermed right away, permanently, okay. What we're talking about is looping, once we get to here, being able to loop down and back up to here, okay, and back out. MR. MACEWAN-How big of a berm will that be? MR. NACE-We'll have to work out the details. MR. OPPENHEIM-It will be big enough to ensure that nobody's going to think of going through it. MR. MACEWAN-Okay, so then for next month, for the Preliminary, you're going to have all the Preliminary drawings. You're going to be looking for the Final on the McDonald Subdivision. You're going to have your phasing plans for us. What about landscaping plans? MR. NACE-They are part of the preliminary submission. MR. MACEWAN-What about maybe seeing copies for what was planned, I don't know if it's even beneficial to us, but the Open Space Institute, what kind of arrangement's going to be made with those people. MR. OPPENHEIM-As soon as, you know, it's in process now. I mean, there is something going on right now. MR. MACEWAN-Something we can look at, some sort of draft or something? MR. OPPENHEIM-Well, basically what's going to happen here is, and I told Jim, we expect shortly within the next two weeks to have an initial meeting, to get Open Space Institute here to meet with the appropriate folks, to outline who they are, what they're all about, and then put the gears in motion to create a management plan. MR. O'CONNOR-Unless the Town Board directs us otherwise, though, Craig, most of that will go to the Town Board. They reserve to themselves the right to approve the arrangements that are made with the third party, because they wanted to have that control. I think we would be dealing Open Space with the Town Board, not with this Board. MR. MACEWAN-What about for the Homeowners Association, the plan or prospectus for that? MR. OPPENHEIM-Yes. As soon as it's put together, that's certainly something that can be made available. That's, I'll tell you right now, that's not going to be until the tail end of this process. It takes a while to get it put together. MR. MACEWAN-For Final, though? MR. NACE-Yes. I think before Final your regulations, in fact, call for any covenants and restrictions and Homeowners Association. MR. MARTIN-Yes. It's even here in Preliminary, actually, a copy of the Certificate of Incorporation of Homeowners Association, the By- laws of the Homeowners Association and Declaration of Covena-nts and Restrictions and the Offering Plan, where applicable. MR. MACEWAN-Is there anything else that YOU need? MR. MARTIN-Well, when it comes in, we're just going to follow 179- 58. That's what we'll do for a completeness check, and then it'll be with the Board. - 21 - ~ MR. BREWER-Can I ask a couple of questions? MR. MACEWAN-This isn't a public hearing, but we'll let you. MR. BREWER-I just would question the time table for the permits for the septics, and we have to get, what is it, a SPDES Permit for the over 40 septic system? MR. NACE-That was, okay, originally, when, I don't have a copy of it, but when the old original Draft EIS was submitted, it included a cluster of townhouses, and there was a common system that was going to serve the development, and that would have been required for that common system. MR. OPPENHEIM-Well, aren't you talking about the 49 and the septic variance with DOH? MR. NACE-Okay. That's the variance. Yes. That is in process. All the paperwork's been submitted to the Department of Health. MR. BREWER-And nothing really happens until you receive that permit, is that correct? MR. O'CONNOR-Not necessarily. It's like, would be like any of your other approvals. always conditioned upon this. that portion, I think, Your final approval is MR. BREWER-But I mean, you can go in and do your infrastructure and stuff like that, but you just can't build a house until you get that permit? MR. NACE-No, no. We can't file the subdivision. MR. BREWER-You can't even cut a tree, then. MR. NACE-We can go through approval phase with the Town Board, or the Planning Board, and if the Board is willing, have an approved plan contingent upon Health Department approval. Okay. MR. BREWER-Suppose, hypothetically, you get that approval from this Board, you go in and you start doing this and that and whatever, and DOH says, sorry, fellows, you can't do it, and then, you don't put a tree back that's already cut. MR. NACE-No, no. That's right. You're right. MR. BREWER-I mean, so that's kind of. MR. O'CONNOR-What Tom is saying, we get approval of this Board, contingent upon.. MR. BREWER-Nothing happens, actually, until you get that approval. MR. NACE-Yes. Right. MR. MARTIN-You can't even do site work. MR. NACE-I'm sorry. I misunderstood the question. MR. OPPENHEIM-Nothing's going to happen until all the approvals are. . MR. NACE-I would expect we have that DOH approval within the next month. MR. OBERMAYER-Are you going to be collecting the stormwater from that area? MR. NACE-We're going to be putting in good soils, sandy soils. We're going to be putting in drywells and probably in some of the - 22 - - - lower areas connecting the drywells with some perforated pipe with stone. So, no, with the drywell system and infiltration system we're better off keeping the stormwater diversified throughout the site. We're going to do that as much as possible, but in the low areas we'll probably just. MR. MARTIN-You have the paved swales all the way through and all that. MR. NACE-Paved swales all the way through. MR. BREWER-I've got one more. The right-of-way that you're giving the Town, for the potential road, I would ask this Board to ask the Town why they want to build a road that length when they don't own the land on either side of it, and is that land potentially there for rezoning? I mean, if the Town comes in, I don't understand, in my mind, why the Town wants to build a road. I don't know how long that is, Tom. Can you give me an idea? MR. O'CONNOR-Eighteen hundred feet. MR. BREWER-Why does the Town want a right-of-way of eighteen hundred feet to bui ld a road at one hundred bucks afoot? I'm asking this Board to ask the Town Board why they would want to do that. MR. OPPENHEIM-I think, I mean, that's a long road. most towns. Any time, in MR. BREWER-I understand that, but NIMO owns that land. the Town want to spend that kind of dollars? Why does MR. O'CONNOR-I don't think the Town has committed. MR. BREWER-No, I know they haven't committed, but why would they even get the idea to spend that kind of money to access your subdivision, Mike? MR. O'CONNOR-I don't think they have the idea that they would ever spend the money. I think what they're doing is, what we used to do when we had a subdivision approved on a regular basis, here, is always have a possibility of connection to the next adjoining property. MR. MARTIN-And we're starting to do that again. MR. BREWER-What if that next adjoining property is. ..? MR. NACE-What if somebody comes in here and wants to develop one of these long, narrow lots? MR. BREWER-That's their problem. MR. MARTIN-That request originated with Paul Naylor, and I don't know that it was ever questioned. MR. BREWER-I'm questioning it now. MR. MARTIN-Well, he asked for it, and the Town Board made sure that it was included. MR. BREWER-Okay. Fine, but I would ask this Board to ask him why the only property that it adjoins, that could be developed, is somebody elses. So what the Town Board has in mind, if they're ever going to build a road there, they're building a road for somebody else. MR. MARTIN-Well, not necessarily, if somebody comes in and says they want to develop somewhere in here, which is right now open horse farm, they want to do that, they build the road for us. - 23 - -- -- We've got the right-of-way. They just have to build the road for us. They pay for the road. MR. OPPENHEIM-Plus I think it also should be pointed out that this land here may well end up in the Town's hands. This land here is the land adjacent to the wetlands. MR. BREWER-Okay. Maybe just an explanation then. That's all I'm asking you for. MR. MACEWAN-Can we do this? Can we request Mr. Naylor's presence, to keep the public happy, at our first meeting with this guy? MR. MARTIN-Yes. He's going to have a lot of comment on this. MR. MACEWAN-Can you see that he'll be there at the night that these guys are going to be there? MR. MARTIN-Yes. MR. MACEWAN-Will that make you happy, sir? MR. BREWER-Yes. MR. MACEWAN-Okay. MR. BREWER-As a private citizen, I'll talk to Paul Naylor. MR. MACEWAN-Okay. MR. BREWER-The Open Space Institute that will possibly, whomever owns that land, Alan, you're going to deed restrict that so that it'll never be anything other than passive recreation, as per your definition and the Town Board's definition? MR. OPPENHEIM-Yes. That's the way, I mean, I think that you've got the protection, in that in those three documents we've made reference to, clearly, we've all agreed, and it's been put in writing, that it's going to be passive recreation, and we know that there still needs to be some efforts as to defining what exactly goes into that box, but there's no question, from our perspective, as the project developer, that, and we also have some say into that, clearly, ~ want it to be passive recreation, and it wouldn't serve us otherwise, and I know the way the Town feels about it as well. MR. MACEWAN-Is that something that the Town Board has to approve? They approve that before we give you final approval for the project? MR. O'CONNOR-I don't believe so. I think that they will approve it before we are entitled to get a building permit, within the project on the lots, as you approved the layout. MR. MARTIN-There was a restriction in there as to, I think that's right. It's in that developer's agreement that no building permits will be issued until land is conveyed, and properly, and that the Town Board... MR. 0' CONNOR-We may, in fact, be given in the deed with the grantee, the person who is actually going to be the taker of the deed, executed in proper form for recording, but with the grantee being blank, that they hold in escrow, with the Power of Attorney to fill in the party of the second part. We did not want one to hold up another, and I don't know if the talks with the Town Board are going to be satisfactory, with the talks with the Open Space Institute with the Town Board are going to be satisfactory, if all of a sudden somebody on the Town Board is going to say, no, we want go look at other people, and this process, we want it to go forward. We're going to give up control, except for the fact that - 24 - -.. we say we will require that it be not more than passive recreation. MR. MARTIN-The other person that would be at your disposal on this would be Paul Dusek, if a question should arise to this, because he was privy to all that, too. MR. BREWER-I guess what my position is, that that land ever ends up in the hands of the Town, owned by the Town, and the Town, fifteen years from now, says, gee, that's a beautiful piece of land. Lets make it into a farm. I know Y..Q.1!. don't want that to happen. I don't want that to happen, either. MR. OPPENHEIM-I don't think, legally, they can do it. MR. O'CONNOR-We will restrict the conveyance of it, the same thing as we will restrict the conveyance of the 60 foot right-of-way. In fact, on the 60 foot right-of-way, I think we have an agreement, and it's within the documents, and I haven't looked at those since February or March when they were done, but it says that there's a right of reverter, that if the Town Board ever decides that that's not going to be a public road, that strip will go back to us. MR. MARTIN-Right. I think that was restricted to a public highway, and that was it. MR. O'CONNOR-Public highway, or, there's also some thought, you may want to have a nature traillbike path through there, with Town blessing. MR. BREWER-Who's responsible for it now, though? Suppose somebody's walking down through there and they get hurt? MR. O'CONNOR-The Town will own it. MR. BREWER-The Town will own? MR. MARTIN-The 60 feet. MR. O'CONNOR-Yes. Not an easement, they will own the deed. MR. BREWER-So then anybody can go down there. If the Town owns it, then anybody can use it. Right? MR. O'CONNOR-Subject to the rights of the Town to restrict access. Every piece of property that the Town owns is not necessarily accessed to the public, or the public doesn't have right of access to it. It has to be held for public purposes. They can restrict it. They can own that piece and say, we're not. It's like the water plant. They own the water plant, but everybody in the Town can't go on the water plant property, and they can do the same thing with this strip. MR. BREWER-Okay. MR. MACEWAN-Anything else? MR. BREWER-No. That's all. MR. MACEWAN-Anybody else? No? Then we'll see you in May. MR. OPPENHEIM-Okay. Thank you. AVIATION HALL EXPANSION MICHAEL PIAZZOLA, PRESENT MR. PIAZZOLA-Our Construction Manager, Ron Stoddard, and I met with Jim Monday morning and we've basically given notice as to, one of the deals that we worked with Galosha is that they could sell as much sand as they could get to K-Mart for whatever they could get, - 25 - '- - as part of the deal that they have with us, and they were going to haul it and we were going to look the other way, and because your concerned about hauling during the day, basically what we told Galosha was that, as of this Saturday morning at eleven o'clock, that operation is shut down completely, that day hauling operation, and they're working like hell to get as much sand down to K-Mart as they can because it's all profit to them. MR. MARTIN-Now what did that letter agreement say, that you gave to the Board, what day was it, April 7th, or 9th? MR. PIAZZOLA-It was the 7th. MR. BREWER-The first letter? Yes, the seventh. start going to the Town. It was going to MR. PIAZZOLA-Okay. You want it to be the seventh? I'm just trying not, I mean, Galosha, we're just trying to not cut Galosha off, because we want him to make money on the pro j ect, and we're negotiating. MR. BREWER-When did you tell him this? MR. PIAZZOLA-We told him Monday after we left Jim's office. MR. BREWER-Okay. Let me just tell you this. I went up there yesterday, just to look. Matt Galosha came to me, said, do you see where that transit is, that's where we're going to. We should be done in a day. I said, okay. I'm not here to check on you, Matt. I just came up to see what was going on. MR. MARTIN-All I'm saying is, if you're not going to honor that first letter that you wrote Paul Naylor, then you would be well advised to be on his doorstep tomorrow morning at eight o'clock explaining why that's not the case. MR. BREWER-I also ask, does Galosha have the second contract? MR. PIAZZOLA-Did you ask Matt? MR. BREWER-No. I asked you. I'm asking you. MR. PIAZZOLA-Yes. We're negotiating that right now. The problem is, to be perfectly honest, the contract, the amount that we've put together for the contract amount is that that should not exceed about a million eight for all that work. Galosha's at 2.3 million. MR. BREWER-I don't care about dollars and cents. MR. PIAZZOLA-Well, I'm just telling you that, we're trying to get Galosha to work, but the problem is we're so far away on numbers right now that we're giving Galosha the work in little bits, and Ron Stoddard, who is our Construction Manager, is working with Galosha daily to try to come up with something that works so we can sign on the dotted line. MR. MARTIN-Ron sat in my office Monday morning and said that they were going to finish clearing out the path for the building. In other words, they were scraping off the asphalt of the old parking lot for the Mall, and they were taking that to K-Mart also, and, obviously, Paul Naylor does not want that. It's all full of asphalt chips and all that. He doesn't want that, but, when that was done, he estimated that to be about Thursday. When that was done, they were going to immediately start hauling to the Town, and then he was to call Paul Naylor, who I talked to this afternoon, who had not heard anything from anybody yet, and I said that you'd be advised to call him in advance, because he has things to do at his end to start that hauling, to be done by Thursday at the latest, tearing up the building pad, and then he would go back to hauling from the sand bank, the good stuff that Paul wants, - 26 - ~ Thursday. MR. PIAZZOLA-Right. So for the sake of, just clarification, and to honor the agreement that we put before you last week, why don't we say that, again, April 7th is the day that we told you, okay. Lets give Galosha another day of hauling, and then start hauling to the Town tomorrow night. Is that all right? MR. BREWER-Who's going to haul it to the Town? contract for it? Who has the MR. PIAZZOLA-Galosha's going to haul it to the Town. MR. MARTIN-My way of thinking, that's totally up to the Highway Superintendent. MR. BREWER-What bothers me so much is that when you, Mike, myself, Dan Galosha and Paul Naylor sat in Paul's conference room, Danny sat across the table from me and said, we've got to go three, four more days and we'll be done with K-Mart. That's a week and a half ago. I mean, how many more three, four more days are you going to go, and then when you say to us, Saturday it's done, Wednesday, they're still hauling. That's what ticks me off so much is, if it's going to be ne:xt Wednesday, I don't care. Tell me next Wednesday. Don't tell me Saturday, and then when I go to work Monday morning, I see trucks, and my ears turn red because I see trucks. MR. PIAZZOLA-Well, if we agree tonight that tomorrow's the last day, then I'm going to go to Galosha and say, tomorrow's your last day. If April 7th's the date, then I think it should be April 7th, because every time I go to Galosha and say, you need to stop hauling tomorrow, well, can I get two more days, can I get three more days. MR. BREWER-No. This Board here, and I'm speaking for myself as a member of this Board, is not here to make Danny Galosha money. I mean, they're a great customer of ours, where I work, but this Board, I don't think, is in a position to make a contractor money. That's not what we're here for. MR. MARTIN-And the other thing that was said, in the context of our meeting Monday, was that the only hauling that would be done during the day, during this night time period, would be the incidental hauling necessary to dig the footings, and that was it. There may be an occasional truck during the day time, but nothing of the magnitude of like the twelve per hour that we're getting right now. Maybe one or two an hour, tops. MR. PIAZZOLA-Fine. So lets honor the April 7th date. Tomorrow's the last day for day hauling to K-Mart, and the night hauling will start either tomorrow night or the night after. I just don't know if Galosha can get people to haul tomorrow during the day, and then put the same guys on at night. I just don't know. MR. MARTIN-I don't know how ready, what Paul's got to do. He may need some lead time, too, but all I'm saying is you should be talking. MR. BREWER-I mean, how does the Board feel? I mean, you heard how 1. feel. How does the Board feel? Does the Board feel that we should let him keep hauling during the day or what? MR. STARK-Well, Tim, you know, maybe they didn't know exactly how much they could get down there. They said, well, maybe five days will do it, and it actually turned out to be 10 days. MR. BREWER-George, he told me how much he's hauling a day, how much he sold to them, it's like adding one and one. - 27 - -" -- MR. STARK-Maybe they needed more, to do what they had to do down there. MRS. LABOMBARD-What if they're not done tomorrow? MR. BREWER-Then let them haul it from their pit by the airport. I mean, that's not the spot they have to get it from. I mean, when Galosha talked to Kubricky this winter, or last winter, they didn't care if they got it from the Mall. Danny Galosha thought he was going to get it from his pit. He has several pits. When we talked to K-Mart, a year ago when we approved their building down there, I asked them, where' s the dirt coming from. They said, most generally, the dirt will come from towards Kingsbury. It will come down Quaker Road, towards the airport. There's pits out there, as though they had already talked to someone. MR. MARTIN-Speaking for me personally, given the choice between meeting the K-Mart need from the sand at the Mall and meeting the K-Mart need from the sand out near the airport, I'd rather see it come from the Mall, because those trucks coming to K-Mart via Kingsbury are going through residential neighborhoods, and less well built roads to accommodate those heavy trucks. Quaker Road is built to a certain standard. It doesn't go through any residential neighborhood, and that's. MR. OBERMAYER-I, myself, would like to see a little more, you know, better schedule. I mean, you tell us one day, as Tim says, and then you still see them ramming down the road. I don't have a problem with Galosha bringing them to K-Mart, but, the whole idea was to control the trucks during certain traffic periods, and that's not happening right now. That was the real criticality, how the whole discussion came about. We didn't want you hauling it during rush hour in the morning, nor in the evening. MR. MACEWAN-I will say one thing, in their defense, every truck has been covered going down Quaker Road. MR. OBERMAYER-Yes, they have, and they're washing the wheels, too. I made that comment earlier. MR. MACEWAN-I mean I guess, somewhere along the line I've lost our scope of where we're going with this. What's the problem with going up and down Quaker Road? MR. OBERMAYER-There's no problem with it, as far as ~ can see. MR. MACEWAN-And that's a commercial highway. meant for. That's what it was MR. OBERMAYER-Right. certain hours. The whole deal was to re strict it during MR. BREWER-The amount of them. MR. MACEWAN-Well, why doesn't somebody get on the case of yellow freight who's got three or four tandem tractor trailers a day going up and down that road. MR. BREWER-Three or four a day versus twelve or fifteen an hour, Craig? Come on. MR. MACEWAN-I mean, that's what it's meant for. highway. I mean, it's a MR. BREWER-It's not meant for specific amount of trucks, fifteen or twenty trucks, to go up and down that road all day long. MR. MACEWAN-Why not? MR. BREWER-What do you mean, why not? I'm not saying it can't be - 28 - ''-- - done, but it wasn't built for that. MR. OBERMAYER-The dirt has to come from somewhere, though. I mean, they have to continue with the construction. So they have to have. MR. MACEWAN-How much more time does he need to finish up his deal with K-Mart? MR. PIAZZOLA-He told me, I mean, what he's telling me and maybe what he's telling Tim are two different things, because Tim's on the Planning Board, and I'm the represented property owner, but. MR. MARTIN-My main concern is the representation was made to this municipality, and most specifically that Highway Superintendent over there, that hauling was to begin on a certain day, and for all I know, maybe he's made plans, he's going to have somebody there tomorrow night. That's what I'm concerned about. MR. BREWER-And that's what I see is the big problem, is the priority is for K-Mart. We're not in business to make K-Mart money. The Town has been promised that dirt, and I think the Town should get it before K-Mart. I'm sorry if you don't like that thought. MR. MACEWAN-I'm not saying that I don't like that thought. I agree with you. MR. MARTIN-I'm not saying that it's a big deal, that if you're not right there honoring that tomorrow, but I think it's worth the courtesy of a personal visit to him tomorrow to explain why it's not being done. MR. PIAZZOLA-Okay. Lets do this, because I don't want to keep giving you schedules that we can't abide by. Tomorrow's April 7th. Tomorrow will be the last day of hauling for K-Mart, and where he gets his K-Mart sand from after tomorrow is Danny Galosha's problem and not mine, because I've got a commitment to delivery 100,000 cubic yards to the Town, and that'll start. MR. MACEWAN-Let me ask this of the Board. What's the problem if he stops tomorrow and delivers his 100,000 yards to the Town, then if he needs, he goes back and starts delivering to K-Mart next week, two weeks from now? MR. BREWER-It won't happen, Craig, for the simple reason that K- Mart, I presume, is on a time schedule, and they're pushing to go as fast, I don't have a problem if he keeps going to K-Mart, as long as the Town gets their dirt. MR. PALING-What is the problem? The schedule that has been set up has been violated to hell, but it doesn't seem to have caused any real problem, and the only arguments seem to be taking place here. What is the problem that's come up because of it? MR. STARK-The Town's going to get their dirt eventually. What do they need the dirt now for anyway? It's not winter. MR. MARTIN-I don't mind even if you don't start tomorrow with the Town, as long as it's agreeable to the Highway Superintendent. MR. PIAZZOLA-I hate to keep coming back to you and saying, and have Tim say, well, you said three days ago, four days ago. MR. BREWER-You told him Saturday. That's fine with me. I don't have a problem with that. If you want to go to Saturday, go to Saturday. If you want to go to Wednesday, don't tell me Saturday and then go to Wednesday. If you go to next Wednesday, I don't care. If you want to go to three weeks from Wednesday, I don't care. You pick a day. - 29 - ~- --' MR. PIAZZOLA-See, I don't know what he needs. MR. MACEWAN-Well, what do you care about? I mean what's your gripe here with this? MR. BREWER-Because, Craig, when they come in with a piece of paper that says, we're going to haul from eight a.m. to three p.m., and they're hauling from four-thirty to three-thirty, or three o'clock, it's the principle of it. MRS. LABOMBARD-It is. MR. BREWER-It's the principle of it, and that's what pisses me off. MR. MACEWAN-I agree with you on that aspect. Have they been adhering to it, though, since the last time we talked to them, as far as the hours? MR. BREWER-No, sir. MR. MARTIN-He stopped at three-thirty. MR. BREWER-They stopped at three-thirty, but they start at four- thirty in the morning, Jim. MR. OBERMAYER-I think four-thirty in the morning is a great time to haul dirt. MR. BREWER-It says seven to seven. MR. MARTIN-We sat in Paul Naylor's Office and said, the three of us. MR. BREWER-At the Planning Board meeting, they came in with a schedule. MR. MARTIN-Well, one of those, we said it was four a.m. to three- thirty would be all right. MR. BREWER-Right, we did, but when they came in to the Planning Board meeting. MR. MACEWAN-I have to ask you a question right there. Why are YOU guys making a deal with them that isn't in front of this Board? MR. BREWER-He said that would be ideal. They came to the Board and said, from seven p.m. to seven a.m. they would haul to the Town. From eight a.m. to three p.m. they would haul to K-Mart. We said, okay, fellas, great. They're doing it from four-thirty in the morning until three in the afternoon. MR. MACEWAN-So we've given them two opportunities to adhere to a strict schedule, and both times they have not done it. MR. BREWER-That's what bothers me, Craig. MR. PIAZZOLA-Well, Tim, we gave you two schedules last week that said, as of April 7th, this is the schedule we're going to follow. Tomorrow's April 7th. MR. BREWER-I think the schedule says, as of April 1. MR. PIAZZOLA-Well, the ones I gave you last week say April 7th. MR. BREWER-I think they say April 1st. Maybe they say April 7th. MR. MARTIN-The two phased ones there, the Option A and B. MR. MACEWAN-Well, I guess maybe the contention we have here is that, yes, you gave us a schedule that said April 7th,...when you - 30 - - were going to be done, but you also gave us a schedule that said, you guys were going to haul within a certain time period, and that hasn't happened. MR. PIAZZOLA-We gave you April 7th. eight to three, incidental hauling. We were going to haul from MR. MACEWAN-That starts at four in the morning. MR. PIAZZOLA-Tomorrow's April 7th. MR. MACEWAN-I'm not talking about tomorrow being April 7th. I'm talking about up to today. Things haven't been going the way they're supposed to be going. MR. PIAZZOLA-Galosha said, I need to get as much down to K-Mart as I can, and I said, well, and he also said that he had a good relationship with the Town, and it wouldn't be a problem, so he hauled from four-thirty to three-thirty, and that's what he's been doing. MR. MACEWAN-His good relationship, I think, is going down the tubes real quick. MR. PIAZZOLA-So I have a schedule that I gave you that says, as of April 7th, it'll be eight to three, for incidental hauling, and seven p.m. to seven a.m. to the Town, and that's the schedule we'll follow. MR. OBERMAYER-Yes, just a time schedule, where you're going to. MR. STARK-Why don't you say something to Galosha, get him in here, and let him defend himself. MR. BREWER-Isn't that funny, what I said April 1st, and everybody keeps saying April 7th. It said April 1st, because you told us that you didn't want to get pinpointed into a specific day being April 7th. It says April 1st. MR. OBERMAYER-Do you have someone else contracted? MR. PIAZZOLA-No. We went to Paul Naylor, and he said he'd be ready on the seventh, I think. Well, tomorrow's April 7th. Can we just start the schedule tomorrow? MR. BREWER-Sure you can. MR. PIAZZOLA-The Galosha as well right. It's all Town. thing is, I can't keep coming here and defending as myself, because Galosha says that it's all right. I talked to the Town. I've talked to the MR. MACEWAN-But the bottom line is, Galosha's not the one who made the deal with the Planning Board. So you're wearing the shoe s right now, and you're the one that's got to say, I don't care what you're telling me, that's not the deal I struck up with the Planning Board, and that's the way it's going to be. MR. OBERMAYER-It's really your responsibility. MR. PIAZZOLA-I understand that. MR. MARTIN-If I were you, all contact of that nature should go directly through Ron Stoddard. He's the Construction Manager. MRS. LABOMBARD-May I suggest that we have some closure on this right now? I think Mike knows what we want and expect of him. MR. BREWER-No. I think we should officially make a resolution as to what's going to happen. - 31 - ',-- - MRS. LABOMBARD-That's what I'd like to. MR. BREWER-If you would tell us what you're going to do, we'll make a motion and approve it, and if it's violated, then Mr. Martin will give somebody a call and take the proper procedures, but leave yourself open. If you want to go until next Saturday, say so. I mean, I don't care. Just say what you want to do. MR. OBERMAYER-I mean, if it's going to be ongoing to K-Mart, that's fine, too. MR. STARK-He can't say that now, because he doesn't know whether Naylor can take it tomorrow or not. MR. BREWER-I'm talking about K-Mart, George. MR. OBERMAYER-I mean, to me, you can go as long as you want to K- Mart. How can we stop them from going to K-Mart, the hours? MR. BREWER-I don't want to have you get in a conflict with Galosha's either, but on the same hand, I don't want him out there saying, well, it's okay because I've got a good relationship with the Town. Bull shit. He doesn't right now, as far as I'm concerned anyway. MR. PIAZZOLA-Again, Tim, I don't want to take money out of Galosha's pocket. So I don't want to commit, and I don't want to say, okay, tomorrow's the day, if he needs another day, but I want to be able to say something to you that we can start, we can make a motion to adopt, and we can start, as of X date, we're going to stop day hauling. MR. BREWER-If he needs another day, lets give him until Saturday. MRS. LABOMBARD-Well, when will we know? tomorrow. If Mike talks to him MR. MACEWAN-He's coming in here right now and telling us the guy needs until Saturday, or he needs another day. MR. BREWER-Lets make it a week from today. MR. OBERMAYER-Yes. Give him a week. MR. PIAZZOLA-I'd like to give him through Saturday, Tim, because I don't want to have to come back here in a week and then have you say. MR. BREWER-If you want to give him through Saturday, and he's still going next Wednesday, you'll be back here Monday, I'm sure. MR. PIAZZOLA-Lets give him through Saturday. MR. BREWER-Like you said, though, I don't want to take any money out of his pocket either. I mean, if he can go until, do this, Mike. We'll give you until next Wednesday. Tell him he's got until next Tuesday. MR. PIAZZOLA-I'd like to give him until Saturday. MR. OBERMAYER-But you could go on your regular twenty-four hour schedule though after that, right? Just as long as you go by those time schedules that we agreed upon. MR. BREWER-I still would like to know the destination. MR. OBERMAYER-Right, but, I mean, the destination could be K-Mart, as far as I'm concerned, as long as you go by the time schedule. MR. MARTIN-You don't have any up date on an ultimate destination - 32 - -- -- via your own lot or, with NIMO? MR. PIAZZOLA-We're supposed to have a plan from John Meyer Consulting, tomorrow or Friday, and they keep promising a plan, and they're still working with NIMO trying to get SAG line height coefficients out of them so they can do the final grade, but I told them, I said, we've surveyed the power lines, put the final grade on the plan, get it to me so I can get it to NIMO, . and we can get it in the process, at least so we can get the thing rolling with NIMO, because they're going to make changes anyway, regardless of what we submit to them. The other way to go, we're working with, we just made an overture to Queensbury Gardens, who has an interest in taking some of it, which would require the construction of a haul road across the NIMO easement, or the NIMO lands, to get down to Queensbury Gardens. MRS. LABOMBARD-Where's Queensbury Gardens? MR. PIAZZOLA-It's the apartment complex that abuts the property. MR. BREWER-So you would go through your own property, so to speak, right? MR. HARLICKER-Why don't you just build a little old temporary road right where that dotted line is there? MR. MARTIN-See that little green line going through Queensbury? MR. PIAZZOLA-This one right here? Is this where want the fill? MR. MARTIN-Yes. Put that fill right in that road. MR. BREWER-I still would like to know, if it goes on site or that route, I don't care, but I would like to know the destination. All right. You're going to do seven p. m. to seven a. m., Town of Queensbury. MR. PIAZZOLA-That'll start Monday evening, which is, that'll be the eleventh. MR. BREWER-You're going to call Paul Naylor tomorrow morning, correct? MR. PIAZZOLA-Right. MR. BREWER-Begin the eleventh of April. MR. PIAZZOLA-We're going to have incidental day hauling between eight a.m. and three p.m. MR. STARK-What's that, for the foot print of the building? MR. PIAZZOLA-That would be for the footings. MR. BREWER-Beginning Monday? MR. PIAZZOLA-Beginning Monday, eight to three, incidental hauling. MR. OBERMAYER-Where are you going to bring that fill, the incidental material? MR. PIAZZOLA-It's one truck an hour to K-Mart, is that a problem? MR. BREWER-No. MR. PIAZZOLA-Eight to three, incidental hauling, and I don't know the destination, but you'll know as of Monday. MR. BREWER-Before it happens. - 33 - '-. "-' MR. PIAZZOLA-Between now, which is 4/6 to 4/9, day hauling until eleven a. m. on Saturday. We close down on the weekend. On Saturday, we close down day hauling. MR. BREWER-Day hauling beginning at four-thirty a.m. until three p.m. MR. MARTIN-And eleven a.m. on Saturday. MR. BREWER-Will end eleven a.m. Saturday, 4/9. How's that, Mike? MR. PIAZZOLA-If you could put that on Queensbury letterhead. If you type that up, then we can hand it to Galosha and say, here it is. Here's your schedule. MR. MACEWAN-And if he doesn't abide by it, somebody ought to say something to him, then. MR. PIAZZOLA-I know. I'm trying to keep Galosha working, but the thing is, every time I go to him and say, you have to do this, he says, I've already taken care of it with the Town. So should I go hire August Bole and throw Galosha off the site, which is what I'd like to do, because I don't like to keep coming here. MR. MARTIN-No. The next time he says that to you, you say, okay, fine, lets go call Jim Martin right now. MR. PIAZZOLA-Okay. MR. MARTIN-All right? Lets do that. Next time he says I've worked it out with the Town, lets the three of us get on the phone. MR. PALING-With all due respect, this letterhead will be the Planning Board that's saying this, and it's not Paul Naylor. MR. MARTIN-I'll tell you what, Tim. I'll have it typed up for your signature. We'll just say, as per our meeting last night, the agreed upon hauling schedule is. MR. BREWER-I want to make a motion right now to approve this schedule, and then tomorrow it can be typed up, and I'll sign it. MR. STARK-Make the motion, then. MOTION FOR THE AVIATION MALL HAULING BEGINNING 4/6/94 THROUGH 4/9/94 DAY HAULING FROM 4:30 A.M. TO 3:00 P.M WILL END 11 A.M. SATURDAY 4/9/94. BEGINNING MONDAY APRIL 11TH. 7 P.M. TO 7 A.M. TO THE TOWN OF QUEENSBURY PIT. INCIDENTAL HAULING WILL BE FROM 8 A.M. TO 3 P.M. ONLY, Introduced by Timothy Brewer who moved for its adoption, seconded by Craig MacEwan: Duly adopted this 6th day of April, 1994, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Obermayer, Mr. Paling, Mr. MacEwan, Mrs. LaBombard, Mr. Stark, Mr. Brewer NOES: NONE ABSENT: Mr. Ruel MR. PIAZZOLA-The other thing I need to ask your indulgence on is to have a workshop meeting, so we can talk about our subdivision plan that we've filed, basically, for financing purposes, and we'd like to do that on the 12th, if possible, the 12th of April. MR. BREWER-I spoke to Bob Stewart about it today, and I said I didn't have a problem with it. You want to do it Tuesday the 12th. Do you know if Bob got a hold of Ted Turner today? MR. PIAZZOLA-I don't know. Bob told me, I was in Syracuse today, - 34 - but Bob called me on the phone. Can we tentatively schedule it for the 12th? Can we have it set up for the 12th, and then we'll confirm it with the ZBA? MR. BREWER-All right. MR. PALING-I'm not familiar with what you're talking about. We're going to get something on this? MR. BREWER-We'll get paperwork. MR. MARTIN-It will be in your packets. It's on your April agenda. MR. STARK-Does anybody see any problem with the subdivision? MR. BREWER-Nobody's seen it yet, George. MR. STARK-Well, you know what they want to do. MR. MARTIN-I can, basically, in a nutshell, tell you what it is. Here is it here, okay. They've got a long term lender on this whole building, some sort of teacher's pension fund. They don't do construction financing. They've had to go to a conventional bank to finance their construction of the J.C. Penney's building. Those lenders have said, we want a first security position on that parcel of land that the building is going to sit on or we won't give you the financing. So, in order to do that, a lot has to be created that follows the footprint of that building. Now, when you do that, she's got it here, when you do that, you naturally create parcels that violate virtually every aspect of the Code. There's no yard setbacks. There's no frontage on a road. There's no nothing. It's supposed to be 25 acres in size. Everything is, you know, so that's why they have to go for a variance. The Board's seen when a nonconforming lot comes through, you can't create a nonconforming lot. You've got to get a variance first, and then they've got to get a subdivision, and the frustrating thing about all this is, this lot is probably going to exist for the term of the construction, maybe eight, nine months, tops, and then it's all going to be conveyed back into the overall parcel again. MR. MACEWAN-Isn't there something you can do to get around that? MR. OBERMAYER-Can't you get a construction loan? MR. MACEWAN-Can't we pass some sort of resolution to get him around that, so that they don't have to go through that rigamarol? MR. STARK-That seems like a hell of a lot of expense. MR. MARTIN-They've done that before, with other communities, and I can't think of, because you have to look at the worst case scenario here, if something did go wrong, that the long term lender doesn't take out the construction lender, that lot will stay in effect. I mean, that's probably a one percent chance of that happening or whatever, but nonetheless. MR. PIAZZOLA-When you borrow three million dollars from the bank, they want to know that they've got collateral on the loan, and you're fighting the battle between Teachers which is a big Teacher's Pension fund that has the loan against the whole 55 acre parcel, and Key Bank, which is going to be doing the loan on the Penneys. Teachers wants to give up as little as possible, because they want to have the most leverage and collateral as they possibly can. Key Bank wants to get as much as they can because they want to spread their risk out ove~ as much of the property as possible. Key Bank will not take a secondary mortgage position behind Teachers. Teachers has a mortgage here that's in the first posi tion. We went to Key Bank and said, listen, just take a second, and they said basically, we're not going to sit behind a thirty million dollar mortgage. We'll have to foreclose against - 35 - "- the thirty million, buy Teachers out, just to secure our three million, which is the J.C. Penneys building. The way we've done this, in several other communities across New York, is we've created a subdivision plan where we've created separate and distinct parcels. MR. MARTIN-In the Town of Guilderland, most closely. MR. BREWER-How come so many lots, though? MR. PIAZZOLA-How come so many lots? Just quickly, we're buying three lots from Charlie Wood, which (TAPE TURNED) If we could just do that, that would be a lot line alteration. The problem is, the bank that's loaning the money for the construction wants those as collateral as well. So they have to be subdivided, but the existing J.C. Penney has to be subdivided because what's going to happen is, when the proposed J.C. Penney is built, the construction lender's going to take their collateral interest out of there, give it back to Teachers, then they're going to take the collateral interest against the existing J.C. Penney which is being built out as Mall shops. ..department store, when that's built, then Teachers will get the collateral interest back in the existing J.C. Penney, and the construction lender will take their collateral interest against the fourth department store pad. MR. MACEWAN-And the lawyers are getting rich. MR. PIAZZOLA-We' re creating 10. We're creating the large Mall parcel. We're creating Department Store D, which would be four, J. C. Penney, which is five, the new J. C. Penney, which is six, seven, eight, to Charlie Wood, nine, Charlie Wood, and... .which is Parcel 10. MR. BREWER-And then after everything is built, it's going to be reverted back to one lot again? MR. PIAZZOLA-Right, and we'll be filing another subdivision plan, a year from now, with one parcel, to roll all the parcels back into one. I mean, Bob Stewart, I have a meeting with Bob Stewart, and he asks me a thousand questions. How can you do this without going through the subdivision process? This is just a pain in the neck. It's a lot of paper. It's a waste of trees. There's got to be another way, Michael, and the lawyers that represent these banks in New York want it this way, because if they have to foreclose against this proposed J.C. Penney parcel, they want to know there's something to sell. MR. BREWER-How in the hell can they not be sure about a company like J.C. Penney? It's Pyramid Company, though. MR. PIAZZOLA-So that's why we filed the 10 lot subdivision plan. We're using all the engineering from the site plan modification, the original site plan package, as the underlying engineering that you'd submit with any subdivision plan that you file. MR. STARK-Tim, did you talk to Ted about this? MR. MARTIN-Ted's aware of it. MR. STARK-What's he say? MR. MARTIN-His general impression is, and I don't want to speak for him, but I think his general impression is that he doesn't see a problem, from an Area Variance standpoint, and that their principal concern in considering that is they have to weigh the detriment to the neighborhood against the benefit to the applicant, and in this case, the surrounding community, there's really not a detriment to the community. The Mall's there. This is a continuation of that use, I mean, and everybody knows what it is, and the benefit to the applicant is obvious. - 36 - - MR. STARK-This will be a joint Board meeting next week? MR. MARTIN-Well, I don't know. hope that it is. We haven't heard from them. We MR. BREWER-Tentatively the 12th. MR. STARK-Which is Tuesday. MR. PIAZZOLA-We'd like to get on the Planning Board agenda for our Preliminary plan at subdivision on the 20th of April. MR. MARTIN-Well, we had to stagger it in such a way that you're on for the ZBA meeting first, and then the next available Planning Board meeting, provided you get all your approvals. MR. BREWER-The nineteenth you'll come to us. The twentieth, you'll go to the ZBA. MR. MARTIN-No. It's got to be reversed. MR. PIAZZOLA-I guess you need the variances before you can go to the Planning Board? MR. BREWER-Right. He's got to go to the ZBA the 20th and us the 26th. MRS. CIPPERLY-We're going to have two meetings. He's coming to us on the 21st. MR. BREWER-And then he's going to come to us the 26th. MR. STARK-Why do we have to have a meeting on the 12th? MR. MARTIN-He wants to have a joint session to explain this to both Boards. MR. PIAZZOLA-What I'd like to do, George, is bring in Bob Stewart, Austin Hoffman, who's the Attorney out of Syracuse who does this for a living, from Pyramid, John Meyer Consulting and Northeast Survey. MR. STARK-Seven o'clock next Tuesday then, over there? MR. BREWER-Yes. us. If there's any change to that, you'll hear from MR. PIAZZOLA-If we don't get the ZBA, I'd still like to just take an hour of your time, if we could, to go through this thing in greater detail. MRS. LABOMBARD-We have site visits the 13th of April. MR. BREWER-Right. Tuesday night, the 12th, we have a meeting at seven o'clock. After that, we have the 19th and the 26th. MR. MACEWAN-I've got two things I'd like to talk about, if I can, for a minute. Did you guys make some sort of deal with these guys in that meeting there on Monday? MR. BREWER-We didn't make any deal. MR. MACEWAN-Well, that's not what I heard from you. MR. BREWER-He said it would be ideal if he could go from 4:30 in the morning. MR. MACEWAN-That's not what I heard. My ears didn't deceive me. You said that's not the new schedule we agreed to. That was the word you used, right? - 37 - -- -" MR. BREWER-We agreed to a schedule last week. MR. MACEWAN-No. I'm talking about when you guys met with them Monday afternoon. MR. BREWER-Yes. We told them they had to stop at three o'clock in the afternoon, and, essentially, that's what they did. MR. MACEWAN-You didn't make up a new schedule then? MR. MARTIN-No. We told them to stop at three. MR. MACEWAN-Okay. Secondly, this thing with the McDonald Subdivision, I would encourage you to take a look at the law, because the law states that any modification of an existing undeveloped subdivision kicks it right back in Sketch, Preliminary, allover again, and that's the way the law was written, and that's the way the law went into effect July 1, and that's the way Dick Boos put it to us, and it was specifically asked that, even if you moved a lot line one foot, and he says, even if you moved a lot line six inches, it kicks the process in allover again. It's kind of stupid, but there's reasons for it. MRS. LABOMBARD-Now this McDonald Drive, or whatever, what, is that in there already? MR. MARTIN-Yes. MR. MACEWAN-It's existing, but they're modifying it to suit the needs of the entranceway to the PUD. If everybody's going to play by the rules, I want everybody to play by the rules. MRS. LABOMBARD-Would you answer this question for me? I know that the original plan of Hudson Point is, you know, the Town Board said no, there's no way, we did, this was before me, okay. There's no way we're going to do 199 lots. MR. BREWER-On the contrary. MRS. LABOMBARD-So, we got it down to 166. You get them down to 96, and they re-did the whole thing. MR. BREWER-I'll tell you the scenario. The scenario was that they came to the Planning Board, and I'm as a member of the public, they came to the Planning Board, they approached them. They showed them a plan that the Planning Board gave them conceptual approval. They went to the Town Board, the Town Board went through the process with them, ended up giving them a positive dec on the EIS, and went and did a Draft Environmental Impact Statement, and came back, correct me if I'm wrong, no, didn't ever come back. MR. MACEWAN-Never came back to ~. MR. BREWER-They came back with a final, it came as a Draft EIS. They took comments. They had a public hearing. They listened to people speak. NIMO got involved a little bit. They came back with a Final EIS, which now shows you the plan that you're looking at today. MRS. LABOMBARD-Right. Okay. Now, we have to have another public hearing to, now, this, what they just showed us today, nothing has been ratified or okayed. MR. BREWER-PUD status has been approved. MR. MARTIN-There's elements of that that you cannot change, without Town Board action. MRS. LABOMBARD-I understand that. - 38 - - MR. STARK-Who owns the land, right now? MR. BREWER-Niagara Mohawk. MR. STARK-And they're selling it to the Michaels Group? MRS. LABOMBARD-So the Michaels Group hasn't forked out a penny yet, except for their engineering fees and drawings? MR. BREWER-Believe me, they've forked out a lot of money. MRS. LABOMBARD-I know, but they haven't bought any, they don't own any deeds to any property? MR. MACEWAN-They're whole deal is going getting final approval of this subdivision. will change hands. to be contingent upon Then, probably, money MRS. LABOMBARD-And who gives them the final approval? MR. MACEWAN-This Board. MRS. LABOMBARD-This Board, yes or no. MR. BREWER-In phases. MR. STARK-Well, say they come in for the first phase. You give them final approval for the first phase, he can build the first phase. MR. MACEWAN-This Board has, basically, the right to say yes or no to them. That's why I'm asking you guys to get a copy of that Final Impact Statement, so that you can, it's going to be thick, and there's going to be a lot of reading, but will bring you up to date on everything that's happened with the thing since Day A. MR. OBERMAYER-You can get us copies of that. right? MR. MARTIN-Yes. MR. MACEWAN-Plus the McDonald Subdivision. MR. OBERMAYER-Now when are they scheduled to come in front of us? MR. BREWER-They're not yet. MR. MACEWAN-Some time in May it'll be in front of us. MRS. LABOMBARD-But you see, this is where I'm confused. From what I've inferred, is that because they had gone to this point revise their original plan, that something actual was, that the okay was given to them for something. MR. BREWER-A PUD. MR. MACEWAN-They got a new zoning designation. That's what they got. MR. BREWER-That zoning up there is all SR-1, WR-3, okay. Therefore, that means they can't go in there and put third acre lots. They went in under a PUD designation, which allows them a mix of uses. The density has to stand, but the lot size can vary. MRS. LABOMBARD-Can vary, I understand. MR. BREWER-And so that's what they got. It was approved. MRS. LABOMBARD-So, we conceivably, all of us could say, no, we don't want anymore PUD's in that part of Queensbury, and can the whole thing, scrub the whole thing. I'm saying, hypothetically, - 39 - "-- -.--" everybody in here, or half of us decide. MR. MARTIN-You have to have a reason. There has to be a substantive reason. They're entitled to that PUD designation. A PUD is an actual zoning district. just like SR-1 Acre or something like that. It's an actual zoning district. Now they're entitled to that, and they're entitled to that in a basic format, and that's what that resolution approved. Now, the responsibility of this Board is to take that general form and hone it down into a specific plan, a detailed plan. Now, if you reject that, there has to be a reason for it, and then they go back to the drawing Board. They have that basic form, and they'll adjust something..your concern, but they're entitled to that project, and they're entitled to that project under certain general circumstances. MRS. LABOMBARD-What about a SEQRA Review on all of that? MR. MACEWAN-It's all been done. That's what kicked it into the Full Environmental Impact Statement. MR. MARTIN-They're in, the scheme of things, the way that's laid out, they're about two thirds of the way through the process. The final third is this site plan review process. Remember, the reason why it's termed site plan review is they now have a permitted use. They've got a permitted district. Now, it's just like you with any other site plan approval. It's not that it's ~ a permitted use. It's a permitted use, but only upon your approval of that site plan. There's going to be 96 lots there, and the resolution of approval even gives parameters to the size of those lots, and it also says, there's a range in which those lots can fall. Maybe it can be 32 third acre lots at only, I think, the ranges are in there, though. So, within those ranges, this development can take place, but you, and through your site plan review process now, determine what that detailed shape is going to be. MR. BREWER-. .the minimum or maximum amount of certain sized lots. MR. MARTIN-What I think is an important concept with a Planned Unit Development is, Planned Unit Development is our most sophisticated mechanism we have in this Ordinance to deal with Planning, and that is supposed to be a planned community. That's why, you normally don't address things like street lighting and street signage, but you're going to get into those things because that's all things that are elements of this neighborhood. and you're planning this out almost to the Nth degree. MR. MACEWAN-How emphatic are you going to be wanting to make them stick to that, I mean, with lighting, signage? A couple of things, as part of this PUD they were supposed to have, a PUD's supposed to encompass a wide range of community needs, from not only commercial endeavors. but residential, and neither one of the commercial zones that are being met with and really dealing with, just kind of, well, we might do that in the future. We might not do it at all. MR. MARTIN-Yes, but I disagree because in that resolution of approval, there are specific uses. That resolution of approval for those commercial district is laid out just like commercial district of this Ordinance. It' s limited to certain uses. They have setbacks. They even have a green space requirement. A certain amount of green space in the front yard. MR. MACEWAN-What I'm getting at is that, it could never happen, a commercial use. MR. MARTIN-So then they'd have to come in for a zone change or something like that. MR. MACEWAN-On that basis alone, they're not meeting the requirements of a PUD. - 40 - - MR. MARTIN-I don't think you're needed to have a commercial space to meet the requirements of a PUD. MR. MACEWAN-It says so in the Ordinance. MR. MARTIN-I think they've also met the requirements of a PUD by the range in housing that they have there. They have a certain number of third acre lots. MR~ MACEWAN-Yes, but a PUD is not just designed for residential needs. A PUD is supposed to be, the thought and the mechanism behind it is supposed to be a self-contained community. MR. MARTIN-No. It can be an all residential PUD. Look at Top of the World. MR. PALING-It doesn't seem that the public is going to have much of an impact on this now. MR. MARTIN-But it's supposed to be a range of housing. MRS. LABOMBARD-They could just bring up some real concerns that would have to be modified, and once those would be modified... MR. MACEWAN-The Southern Exposure development is not part of the PUD, however, they need to gain access through that development to get to their PUD. That was a development that was done before the Master Plan was changed. They're all substandard lots in there. Now that the thing's never been developed and they're now modifying the thing, it's going to kick it back through, in mY opinion, through the whole process again. ...are going to have to come up with one acre lots. I guess when you get down to the point, you talk about what's your definition of a modification, whether it's major or minor. You're definition of what yoU might think might be a minor modification is not mY. definition. I mean, if you're moving a lot line one or two feet, or you're taking a radius of a road and moving it a little bit, yes, maybe that could get away to become a minor modification, but when you're totally changing the infrastructure, like they are in that, and totally moving, what, five or six properties in there, changing the lots all around, that becomes a major modification. MR. MARTIN-Well, that's your decision as a Board. MRS. LABOMBARD-All right. From past experiences, what's your opinion, that you think's going to happen, when we present this to the public, in open forum? MR. MARTIN-I think, given what this has gone through, and as closely as I've followed this with the Town Board all the way through, I think you're going to have some comment, but it's not going to be that negative. MR. MACEWAN-I want to reiterate one point that Mike O'Connor said, was he was saying that that was a resolution that was acted upon, the thing that Ed LaPoint had initiated that resolution for that. On that, that resolution was done before that new law went into effect, and nothing happened on that subdivision. They didn't act upon it, and no formal decision has been made on that subdivision. No formal approval has been done on it. So, as far as that goes, that resolution is kicked right out, because now the law supersedes that resolution. MR. MARTIN-Well, I think it's up to this Board to come to a consensus of opinion on how you want to treat this. MR. MACEWAN-Well, that's why everybody's got to have information in front of them. You can't come up with consensus with everybody, you know, for me, personally, I'd see them go through the process again on that subdivision. all the a good like to I don't - 41 - - -.-I have a problem with the way it's laid out or anything. I'd like to see the lots maybe a little bit bigger, but I think there's some room for flexibility in there, but to just ignore it and say, well, it's a minor modification, just dust it off, that's not right. That's not the case. MR. BREWER-Hypothetically, if it does have to go through the process again. MR. MACEWAN-It should go through easy. haggling. There shouldn't be any MR. BREWER-Does he leave the zoning as it is? MRS. LABOMBARD-See, I don't understand why Phase I has to be the one third acre lots. MR. MARTIN-It's always been the case that when a subdivision comes in for a modification that was approved under an old Ordinance, it's bound only to the requirements of the old Ordinance. MR. MACEWAN-The reason for it, Cathy, is you have to get the infrastructure going first. You have to gain access into there to do that. They're not going to go up and down Sherman Island Road. They're not going to use that access road down by the river. They need to get their Boulevard put in first, and get into there, and where are they going in through, it happens to be gOing through those third acre lots. That's the reason why they have to go that way. MR. BREWER-They've got to recoup some of their money. MR. MACEWAN-Yes. It doesn't make sense for them to go and put, what did you say, $100 a foot to put a road in to go in there three quarters of a mile to build up six half acre lots and hopefully try to sell them, when you've just put in how many millions of dollars worth of roadway. On motion meeting was adjourned. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED, Timothy Brewer, Chairman - 42 -