1996-05-30
~
QUEENS BURY PLANNING BOARD MEETING
SECOND REGULAR MEETING
MAY 30, 1996
INDEX.
Site Plan No. 20-96
Tax Map No. 49-2-32, 33
John F. & Laura Flower
1.
Site Plan No. 21-96
Tax Map No. 74-1-19.2
Roger LaFontaine
9.
Site Plan No. 19-96
Tax Map No. 124-1-9
Alfred J. Merchant
24.
Site Plan No. 24-95
MODIFICATION
William Threw
Tax Map No. 137-2-7.3.
29.
Site Plan No. 22-96
Tax Map No. 148-1-2.1
The Michaels Group
37.
THESE ARE NOT OFFICIALLY ADOPTED MINUTES AND ARE SUBJECT TO BOARD
AND STAFF REVISIONS. REVISIONS WILL APPEAR ON THE FOLLOWING MONTHS
MINUTES (IF ANY) AND WILL STATE SUCH APPROVAL OF SAID MlNUTES.~'
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(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting
5/30/96)
QUEENSBURY PLANNING BOARD MEETING
SPECIAL MEETING
MAY 30, 1996
7:00 P.M.
MEMBERS PRESENT
ROBERT PALING, CHAIRMAN
CATHERINE LABOMBARD, SECRETARY
GEORGE STARK
CRAIG MACEWAN
ROGER RUEL
TIMOTHY BREWER
DAVID WEST
CODE COMPLIANCE OFFICER-JOHN GORALSKI
PLANNING BOARD ATTORNEY-MARK SCHACHNER
TOWN ENGINEER-RIST FROST, PAUL COLLINS
STENOGRAPHER-MARIA GAGLIARDI
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MR. PALING-Cathy, do you want to start us off.
MRS. LABOMBARD-Sure. Okay. The first item on tonight's agenda is
New Business for Site Plan No. 21-96, Type II, for Roger
LaFontaine, Zone: Highway Commercial One Acre. The applicant
proposes a 12' by 22' trailer at the site to serve lunch in dinner.
All land uses in a Highway Commercial zone are subject to site plan
review and approval by the Planning Board, and there is a public
hearing tonight.
MR. PALING-Okay. Thank you.
MR. GORALSKI - I don't see Mr. LaFontaine in the audience, yet. He's
not here.
MRS. LABOMBARD-I don't, either.
MR. PALING-All right. Then why don't we just put that off on the
agenda, lets move that to the last, and we'll come back to it.
SITE PLAN NO. 20 - 9 6 TYPE: UNLISTED JOHN F. & LAURA FLOWER
OWNERS: SAME ZONE: WR-1A LOCATION: 30 SUNNYSIDE RD. NORTH
APPLICANT IS PROPOSING IMPROVEMENTS TO DRIVEWAY AND ACCESS TO LOWER
LEVEL PARKING. CONTINUE DRIVEWAY AND INCREASE PARKING. INCLUDES
STABILIZING EXISTING BANK. WARREN CO. PLANNING: 5/8/96 TAX MAP
NO. 49-2-32, 33 LOT SIZE: .36 ACRES SECTION: 179-16
JOHN FLOWER, PRESENT
STAFF INPUT
Notes from Staff, Site Plan No. 20-96, John F. & Laura Flower,
Meeting Date: May 30, 1996 "The applicants are proposing driveway
improvements to their property on Lake Sunnyside. Staff has
reviewed this application and has the following comments: No hard
surfacing is allowed within 50 feet of any lake in Queensbury.
Construction of this driveway must conform to this requirement of
the Zoning Ordinance. Staff recommends a stipulation that before
construction takes place on this driveway that any slope created as
a result of this construction will be seeded and stabilized as
required by Section 179-65 of the Zoning Ordinance. All comments
from Rist Frost should be addressed prior to any Planning Board
action. "
MR. GORALSKI-The Warren County Planning Board returned a
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(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
recommendation of No County Impact, and Paul Collins is here from
Rist-Frost to give you their comments.
MR. PALING-Okay.
MR. GORALSKI-IIWe have reviewed the above plan received May 2, 1996
and have the following engineering comments: A short EAF should be
included. The layout plan does not include existing and proposed
contour lines. Level of detail not sufficient for review. There
is no landscaping plan indicating existing vegetation or clearing
limits. More detail is required on the retaining wall design and
construction details. Grading and erosion control plans are not
noted on the drawings. A slope stabilization study may be
required. The "New York State Guidelines for Urban Erosion and
Sediment Control" manual should be referenced and followed. If
increased runoff is expected a Stormwater Management Plan should be
provided. This submittal is too limited to provide adequate review
at this stage. If you have any questions, please call us. II It's
signed william J. Levandowski, P. E. Senior Vice President &
Director of Technical Services"
MR. PALING-Okay. Is the applicant here?
..---
MR. FLOWER-Yes, I am.
MR. PALING-Would you identify yourself please, in the mic, for the
record.
MR. FLOWER-I'm John Flower.
MR. PALING-Okay.
Flower?
Have you seen these Rist-Frost comments, Mr.
MR. FLOWER-Yes. I saw them yesterday morning.
MR. PALING-Okay. Do you want to comment on them?
MR. FLOWER-I've turned in the Short Form of the EAF this morning.
When we did this drawing, I didn't have an engineer do it. I had
a draftsman friend of mine. We went up and shot elevations. They
were marked on the drawing that I turned in. So there's not a
topographical contour type lines on the drawing. If you have the
drawing that was submitted, I have it numbered Number One, it shows
that the water level on the east side.
MR. PALING-Which print are you looking at, for our clarification?
Okay. That's not this. Here it is. It's marked Number One in the
lower right hand corner. There's a one and a two. Okay. I'm
sorry. Go ahead.
MR. FLOWER-And if you start on the east side of the property, on
the right hand side of the page, it's marked there with kind of a
bull's eye. It says four foot above the water line. Then that
comes up, the next elevation we shot was just off the corner of the
cabin that's sitting there. It's seven feet eight inches above.
The next one we shot, going straight up the slope, was at the
height of ground where the center level parking area is. It was 31
feet 6 inches, and then it's 37 feet 9 inches up farther on the
upper bank. So that's the elevation. I understand you people have
been over to see it. It's quite steep down through there. The
bank itself, 18 feet off the property line. The bank, right now,
it's cut away, it's 18 feet at the highest spot to the ground
level. The double terrace stone wall that we're proposing to put
up there would be two, four foot high sections. The grade would be
brought up, initially, to 15 feet, and then there would be two,
four foot high terrace stone walls that are indicated on the
drawing as the, kind of the dotted lines that you see running out.
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(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting
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MR. PALING-Now that would be going back to the west, when you're
describing that. Am I following you right?
MR. FLOWER-The wall would run back to the west, and up the slope.
MR. PALING-Yes.
MR. FLOWER-Okay. So those walls, each terrace would be six foot
wide, and the wall would be four foot high, and that's shown on the
other detailed drawing that was marked as Drawing Two, and I did a
little more smaller drawing and turned it in today. It's very
similar to this one. It just stipulates that we're going to use,
from like 18 inch to 4 inch cobblestone to build the wall. It's
going to have about a 15 degree slope on the wall, and abouD a 15
degree slope on the terrace section as it goes up, and indicates,
we didn't label it, but it shows, that would be seeded on the
terrace, you know, as you get up to the first level, you go back,
that 15 degree slope would be seeded, then you'd go up another four
foot, and then the rest of that slope up to the existing grade is
labeled as grass. The grade is approximately 24 degrees by the
draftsman that did these up for us and did the calculations. So
that's kind of the contour. Granted, it doesn't have the
topographical type contour lines on it. We've tried to indicate,
on Drawing Number One, where the edge of the bank is right nowvand
where we perceive the stone walls to run from. I mean, they're
going to taper down on both ends, and the highest section would be
four foot.
MR. PALING-We're all looking at these drawings for the first time,
including the gentleman from Rist-Frost. So I think we're going to
rely more on his re-action right now than our own. I don't know if
there's time enough to look at this, or what would you say?
MR. COLLINS-I would really like to take a closer look at it. It
mayor may not be all right.
MR. PALING-Yes. I can understand that. Okay, and this, you're
saying, includes your grading and erosion control also, on these
prints?
MR. FLOWER-Yes. It'll be all seeded and covered with hay, after
it's graded, until the seed comes up.
MR. PALING-That's a very steep slope, and I think I'm anxious, I
think, at least, to hear what the engineering analysis of it would
be. I'd have to rely on the rather than my own observations in
that case. How does everyone else feel?
MR. STARK-John, are you happy with this, what you received
yesterday and today?
MR. GORALSKI-I think, in concept, that this solution could work.
I guess I can't say, definitively, 100% yes it will work, but I
think in concept that it could work, yes.
MR. FLOWER-I have similar stone walls at a house I own over on
Sunnyside. The grade isn't quite as high as this, and they're
retaining that wall. They have for 10 years. There's a double set
of walls, there's actually three there. They're not four foot
high, they're more three foot high. The only thing that I did put
in this that I didn't do on those walls is there's a Number Four
stone going behind the cobble stone here for a filter fabric. That
sand there is very fine, and if you get any precipital rain running
down that washes right through the stone. So that's another thing
that's indicated on here that really holds that sand from washing
out through the cobblestone.
MR. PALING-Okay. Any other comments on this?
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(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
MR. BREWER-I don't have a problem waiting for the engineer, but why
are we reviewing a driveway?
MR. GORALSKI-Because of the slopes that they're creating to build
the driveway. You can only do that with a site plan review.
MR. PALING-This, lets see, it calls for a public hearing tonight,
and it also calls for, this is an Unlisted Action. So I think
maybe now the thing to do would be to go to the public hearing,
unless there was other comments at this point. So the public
hearing on this matter is opened. Does anyone care to comment?
PUBLIC HEARING OPENED
PAUL MOORE
MR. MOORE-I'm Paul Moore of 31 Sunnyside North. I'm across the
street from this proposed project. I haven't reviewed the drawings
yet, but as I drove around the lake on Sunnyside North today I
could see there appeared to be a significant amount of excavation
going on, and I guess my question is, how much work has already
been done, and is it being done to Code, or whatever the standards
are. It appeared there was a considerable amount of tree cleaving
going on this winter in that area. I don't know if that's a part
of this project or not, but I just though it would be good if Mr.
Flower could answer some of my concerns or questions. I'm not
saying I'm opposed to it or for it. I just would like to clarify
what it is that's been done so far, and whether that's part of this
program, and whether all the approvals are in place for this
construction.
MR. PALING-Okay. Your questions have to be directed to us.
MR. MOORE-Okay. I'll direct them to you. I live across the
street. I would like to know if the work that I observed today is
part of this project, as I drove around down Sunnyside North, and
if, in fact, this is being done according to approval and Code.
That's all.
MR. PALING-Okay. All right. Thank you. Is there anyone else who
would care to comment about this?
JOAN BOVEE
MRS. BOVEE-My name is Joan Bovee and I live on Lakeview Drive,
which is Sunnyside Estates, and we have a common beach there, which
is right next door to this property, and I saw it last weekend. I
mean, I saw it last fall, too, when there were starting whatever,
but I was concerned about the sand and everything washing into the
lake, and the hay. I mean, right now it looks to me, because I
haven't been over on the other side of the property, that
everything is going to wash into the lake. I missed the beginning
of the meeting. So I'm not exactly sure what Jack said about the
lake. The lake is what 1 was concerned about, as far as everything
washing into the lake.
MR. PALING-Okay.
MRS. BOVEE-Because we do have a beach right next door.
MR. PALING-Yes. I can understand your concern for that.
MRS. BOVEE-Okay. Thank you.
MR. PALING-Thank you. Anyone else? Okay.
DEBORAH CHAMPAGNE BARDIN
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(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
MRS. BARDIN-I'm Deborah Champagne Bardin. I live at 37 Sunnyside
North, across the way. I'm more concerned about the placement of
the driveway. I don't know if this is what I should be bringing in
front of you or not. It looks as if it's going to be on that sharp
turn, and it's going to take away some of the parking that is up on
the top level at this time. Again, my concern is just for the
parking, and I'm not opposed to this project or whatever. During
the winter time, it's difficult to get out of that area. So all of
the tenants and owners need to park up on the top level, and it
seems as if this driveway is going to take away from part of the
parking up there, and I wouldn't want to see a situation occur
where we're going to be parking on the sides of the road.
MR. PALING-Would you take a look at this, if you would, please.
MRS. BARDIN-Yes. I haven't seen it.
MR. PALING-And tell me if I'm following you right. This is the
driveway, I believe, and is this the pullout area you're thinking
about?
MRS. BARDIN-Okay. This is the driveway we're talking about right
here. This isn't my turn¡ so this is the driveway in here, you
take away this.
MR. GORALSKI-There's a parking area right at the turn.
MRS. BARDIN-Yes.
MR. GORALSKI-This driveway is not going to affect that.
MRS. BARDIN-Okay. There were stakes out.
MR. GORALSKI-I think they're just staking out the lot, is what they
were doing.
MRS. BARDIN-Okay. So the driveway is still going to be the same
area.
MR. GORALSKI-The driveway is going to come down, that same road cut
that there is now, that comes across the back of the three houses.
MRS. BARDIN-Okay. Yes. Because it looked like a place where the
driveway was going, and it's difficult because all of the work was
being done in this area. I was concerned about, you know, it
looked like that was going to be the driveway going off, to give
these people over here access to the main road, because this has
been, I guess, purchased by someone else.
MR. PALING-Okay. So the driveway we see marked on here, blacktop
drive, is what we're talking about.
MR. BREWER-Right.
MRS. BARDIN-That's currently blacktopped, yes.
MR. PALING-Yes, and down here.
MRS. BARDIN-And then it goes down into here to dirt parking, and
then this, but this is where we're being, this is what was all
being, like, staked off here, so it looked as if the driveway was
going to be here, and I was concerned because of this turn, and
taking some of this parking away for the winter time because they
cannot get up out of this driveway. Because it looked as if they
were trying to access this cabin from here, to eliminate this
problem.
MR. PALING-Right. That isn't going to happen¡ though.
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(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
MRS. BARDIN-Okay.
MR. PALING-All right.
MRS. BARDIN-That answers my question. Thank you.
MR. PALING-Okay. Thank you. Is there anyone else who would care
to comment on this? Okay. If there is no one else that cares to
comment from the public, then we'll close the public hearing.
PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED
MR. PALING-Now I wonder, you heard the initial questions. I wonder
if you care to comment on those. We're talking about washing into
the lake, the construction that's been done, and, John, you may
want to comment also. The driveway is off the list, but the
construction that's already started, the cutting of trees and so
on.
MR. GORALSKI-Well, I can give you a little bit of history. Back,
I guess it was about two months ago now, I got a call. There was
some excavation being done near the shoreline. I went out and took
a look. In fact, they had done some, basically done the cut t~at
you see now. When I talked to Mr. Flower about it, he immediately
went out and put haybales and did everything that k asked him to do
to stabilize the site until a site plan review could be done, and
in fact, the erosion control measures that he's put out there now
have been successful in keeping everything out of the lake.
MR. PALING-And no further cutting or anything was done?
MR. GORALSKI-No additional cutting has taken place since then, and
I don't believe that any additional cutting is proposed.
MR. PALING-I think the next question that's been raised is the work
in progress, if you will. Can we talk about that?
MR. FLOWER-Yes. Like John said, when we started working, I didn't
realize that we needed a site plan review and neither did the
individual that was doing the work. I wasn't doing it myself.
There was probably six or eight trees, big trees, removed, white
pines. Those are probably the logs that you saw at the top of the,
if you went by there, they haven't been removed yet. We haven't
done anything since John asked us to stop. There was some dirt
removed to create that grade and that bank. The slope that we
removed is a similar slope to the one that we're going to re-
construct. It's just going to be, the terracing part of it will
make up for the difference of where we're putting the driveway in.
MR. PALING-Are you working on it now?
MR. FLOWER-No. We haven't done anything since John asked us to
stop to get this approved. Yes. It took me a couple of weeks to
get an engineer, a friend of mine who's, well, he's not a degreed
engineer, but a draftsman over there with a transit to get the
elevations, and he did the drawing, and the stuff works. So
that's, like I said, about eight big pine trees. There's a lot of
brush stuff that was probably cut down, and there was numerous
loads of sand drawn out of there. So, yes, in response to Mr.
Moore's, there was some excavating done. There were some trees
removed. There's not going to be anymore trees removed, and, you
know, the sloped driveway is going to be, right now, just crushed
stone, and like John said, we have no proposal to pave anything
within 50 feet of the driveway, even if we stopped at the bottom of
the slope, like the existing blacktop driveway. That's more than
50 feet from the water's edge. The runoff that was also addressed
in the Rist-Frost thing, there's always been extreme runoff down
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(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
these slopes on either the blacktop driveway or where this exists
now. There used to be, we dug up ~bout a 10 inch fiberglass pipe
that was buried in the ground that kind of collected the water and
pushed it out down onto the lake. On the drawing, it shows, just
on the front edge of where the existing camp is, there's a
cobblestone drywall that's about three feet wide and runs all the
way across the front. On the Number Two drawing, you see kind of
a slope of that area there. There's going to be depressions on
both sides of that drive area, to collect the water and run it down
into that drywell area. So, really, I think the runoff, as far as
going into the lake, it's going to be better now than it was
previously. Before it was just running down through the dirt and
going out in there. In fact, we had to cut a tree down a~ one
time, as it had washed out from under the roots.
MR. PALING-This is Unlisted. We should do a SEQRA on this. We
should do a Short Form SEQRA on it. Now, should we do it prior to
final comments from engineering? I address that to the Staff as
well as to the Board.
MR. GORALSKI-It's really up to the Board. If you feel that you've
got enough information to address these questions, then you can go
through it. If you feel that you need more input from--the
engineer, then I'd recommend you wait.
MR. RUEL-I would recommend that we delay this application until we
hear further from Staff, certainly from engineering.
MR. PALING-Okay. Tim?
MR. BREWER-I don't want to delay him, but I think we ought to at
least have our engineer look at it. I mean, if we sent it to him
and he says he doesn't have enough information, maybe some kind of
an arrangement could be made between the engineer and the
applicant.
MR. PALING-All right. Dave, how do you feel?
MR. WEST- I agree. How much time would be required to complete that
assessment?
MR. COLLINS-I would guess less than one day.
MR. PALING-Okay. Cathy?
MRS. LABOMBARD-I think we should get a little report.
MR. PALING-George?
MR. STARK-How did we ever get this application if it wasn't
complete, when it was turned in?
MR. RUEL-I agree.
MR. PALING-There is some last minute information which the Rist-
Frost did not have an opportunity to review. I agree. I can't
answer your question.
MR. STARK-Ask the applicant if it's going to be a hardship to wait
a few more weeks.
MR. PALING-Craig, how do YOU feel?
MR. MACEWAN-I'd prefer to wait.
MR. PALING-Yes. I think it's the consensus of the Board that we'd
like to wait until we have final comments from Rist-Frost, and I,
personally, would like to wait on the SEQRA until I've got that.
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(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
I think I have too many questions.
MR. BREWER-Yes, if we're going to wait for that, we probably
should.
MR. RUEL-Yes. Sure, wait on it.
MR. PALING-Now, is this something that could be put together for
the next meeting, so we don't delay you too much?
MR. GORALSKI-You're next meeting wouldn't be until.
MR. PALING-June.
MR. RUEL-Three weeks.
MR. PALING-Yes. The other alternative, a possible alternative
would be to go ahead with the whole process, conditional upon an
engineering favorable response.
MR. BREWER-If you want to wait and do the SEQRA, how are we going
to do that, without the report from the engineer?
.---
MR. PALING-You can't. You're going to have to do SEQRA now, and
then make the motion, have to make it conditional upon Rist-Frost's
reply, a review by Staff.
MR. MACEWAN-I'm not willing to do that.
MR. BREWER-I'm not, either.
MR. PALING-Okay, then I think that's no. Okay. Then I think what
we're faced with is that we'd like to delay this until the first
meeting in June, which is June 18th. There's no reason they can't
be on the agenda then. Is there?
MR. GORALSKI-I can tell you that you're going to have at least
three meetings in June. What we'll do is put it on the first
meeting, whatever that is.
MR. PALING-All right. So that would have to be the 11th, then,
because there are no more Tuesday's in June, the 11th or the 18th,
and put this application on the one that comes first. Okay. Now,
what do we need to do, table this motion?
MR. GORALSKI-I think you would table it for more information from
the engineer review.
MR. PALING-All right. Do we have your consent to table this, which
we must have.
MR. MACEWAN-You didn't close out the public hearing, did you? You
left it open?
MR. PALING-I closed the public hearing, but I can amend that. We
will, I'll re-open the public hearing.
PUBLIC HEARING RE-OPENED
MR. PALING-And keep it open into the next meeting. Am I okay doing
that?
MR. SCHACHNER-You don't have to, but you can if you want.
MR. PALING-I think we should.
MR. MACEWAN-I'd encourage that, only because we haven't seen the
EAF and we haven't gotten engineering back either.
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MR. BREWER-And we will get an EAF with our packet?
MR. GORALSKI-Yes. We have one. That was submitted today.
MR. PALING-But we didn't see it. Okay. All right. Then with the
applicant's consent, I'll entertain a motion to table.
MOTION TO TABLE SITE PLAN NO. 20-96 JOHN F. & LAURA FLOWER,
Introduced by Timothy Brewer who moved for its adoption, seconded
by George Stark:
Until the first meeting in June, pending information from the
engineer.
Duly adopted this 30th day of May, 1996, by the following vote:
AYES: Mr. MacEwan, Mr. Stark, Mrs. LaBombard, Mr. Ruel,
Mr. West, Mr. Brewer, Mr. paling
NOES: NONE
MR. PALING-Okay.
Thank you.
We'll see you the first meeting next month.
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MR. BREWER-Do you want to do LaFontaine?
MR. PALING-Is he here now? Okay. Do you want to go back to the
first one.
MR. SCHACHNER-Bob, I wonder if it might not be appropriate, since
we seem not to be sure when that last matter was tabled until,
based on your meeting schedule, just make sure that the members of
the public that commented on it realize that the public hearing is
remaining open to some future meeting in June.
MR. PALING-All right. We had how many, two or three come up to
comment.
MRS. LABOMBARD-One lady left, but another is here.
MR. BREWER-I know one of the audience. I'll let them know.
MR. PALING-All right. Then that would cover the three that talked
tonight.
MR. BREWER-Actually, I know two of them that commented.
MR. PALING-Okay. Cathy, go back to Number One, if you would.
MRS. LABOMBARD-Okay. We're back to Roger LaFontaine.
SITE PLAN NO. 21-96 TYPE II ROGER LAFONTAINE OWNER: SAME ZONE:
HC-1A LOCATION: 1133 ROUTE 9 - MARTHA'S APPLICANT PROPOSES A 12'
X 22' TRAILER AT THE SITE TO SERVE LUNCH AND DINNER. ALL LAND USES
IN HC ZONES ARE SUBJECT TO SITE PLAN REVIEW AND APPROVAL BY THE
PLANNING BOARD. BEAUTIFICATION COMM.: 5/6/96 WARREN CO.
PLANNING: 5/8/96 TAX MAP NO. 74-1-19.2 LOT SIZE: 8.3 ACRES
SECTION: 179-23
DENNIS & ROGER LAFONTAINE, PRESENT
STAFF INPUT
Notes from Staff, Site Plan No. 21-96, Roger LaFontaine, Meeting
Date: May 30, 1996 "The applicant proposes a 12' by 22' building
to serve lunch and dinner at Martha's ice cream stand. This
expansion meets the setbacks and density requirements of the HC-1A
zoning district. The only staff concern is vehicular access at
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this location. This site currently uses three access points off of
Route 9. The center curb cut is ¡ocated next to an area used by
customers to wait for ice cream orders. Staff would offer a
stipulation that this center curb cut be eliminated in order to
prevent vehicle/pedestrian conflicts at this location.
Consideration should be given to providing mulch and street trees
in this area along Route 9."
MR. GORALSKI -The Warren County Planning Board approved. The
Queensbury Beautification Committee approved the above.
MR. PALING-Yes, there's a Beautification.
middle of the letter.
Well, notice in the
MR. GORALSKI-II In addition to the above Landscaping, Screening and
Planting Provisions, the Committee wishes to go on record that it
does not approve: 11
MR. BREWER-I think that's standard, the nonconforming signs.
MR. GORALSKI-I guess they just approved it.
MR. PALING-Well, John, read the sentence before that, too. ---
MR. GORALSKI-"Planting box across front. Nothing we can do. We
saw him. 11
MR. RUEL-What does that mean?
MR. PALING-Well, we'll have to ask the applicant.
MR. GORALSKI-Maybe the applicant can comment.
MR. PALING-All right. Why don't you go ahead. We'll come back to
that.
MR. GORALSKI-And then there's a letter from the Glens Falls
Transportation Council, from Joanna Brunso, Staff Director, 11 I have
reviewed the proposed site plan for the addition to Martha's Ice
Cream on Route 9 in the Town of Queensbury and would like to make
the following comments: 1. Martha's Ice Cream is located at a
difficult spot on Route 9. The center turning lane on Route 9 is
located so that northbound vehicles waiting to left into Martha's
must share the lane with southbound vehicles waiting to turn left
onto Round Pond Road. Since 1991 there have been three accidents
involving vehicles waiting to turn left into Martha's. Two of
these accidents involved personal injuries. 2. There are two
businesses on the site, one for ice cream and sandwiches and one
for the motel, and yet there are three entrances/exits all used by
the restaurant business. Parking is limited, and at times during
the peak recreational season, traffic in the parking lot may
contribute to a delay to vehicles entering the lot because a
parking slot is not immediately visible to the entering vehicle.
3. In preparation for the resurfacing of Route 9 in 1998, an
access management plan is being prepared. This plan is being
developed with a view to managing congestion and minimizing
accidents in the Route 9 Corridor between Sweet Road and Route 149.
It is very possible that this plan will recommend the elimination
of one of the access driveways. Therefore, this may be a good time
to rethink traffic circulation within the Martha's Ice Cream
parking lot. 4. The elimination of the center access drive would
provide several additional parking slots and reduce vehicle
conflicts. Striping on the pavement to indicate parking slots,
vehicle direction, and pedestrian walkways would improve traffic
flow in the lot. If possible, Martha's should provide additional
parking. 5. As soon as possible the barriers between the adjacent
businesses should be removed to facilitate the flow of vehicles
between these businesses. Thank you for the opportunity to comment
- 10 -
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(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
on this proposed site plan."
MR. PALING-All right. Yes, that's the extent of the letters we
have an income for this. So, yes, the vehicular access, and
there's a couple of, three questions. Would you identify
yourselves, please, for the record.
MR. LAFONTAINE-That's Dennis LaFontaine, and I'm Roger LaFontaine.
This is my son. I own the property.
MR. PALING-Okay. Thank you. Would you clarify the statement by
the Beautification Committee regarding the planting box across the
front, nothing we can do, we saw him.
MR. D. LAFONTAINE-I met with her, and she wasn't really sure why I
was there. She just wanted to see what we were planning on doing
with the property. We laid all fresh sod down. We've got a
planter box going, I've got a planter box going in front of the
Grill, if that's what she's talking about, I'm not sure, but
there's one going across the front window there. Nothing she could
do. She made that comment in the meeting, saying there was nothing
further we could do. Everything was fine with her.
~
MR. PALING-You're saying in front of a window?
MR. D. LAFONTAINE-Well, there's a planter box going in front of the
window in front of the building, a flower box.
MR. RUEL-On the building
MR. PALING-A window box. It says "across the front". I took that
to mean out near the street.
MR. D. LAFONTAINE-No, there was nothing ever mentioned.
MR. PALING-There's no comment about that?
MR. D. LAFONTAINE-Not at all.
MR. PALING-Let me look at one other thing here. Okay. I guess the
other question I had was, the barriers between the adj acent
businesses, that would be, that would include the zoo.
MR. D. LAFONTAINE-I don't know what barriers between the
businesses.
MR. GORALSKI-I think what she's talking about is, no, I believe she
does mean, because you can circulate around your entire site back
to the motel. Is that correct?
MR. D. LAFONTAINE-Correct, to the back lot.
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-There's a motel parking lot.
MR. GORALSKI-Right. I believe what she means, see, I guess the
most current theory in access management is to have
interconnections between adjacent businesses, so that, say people
that went to the zoo, and then they were going to go to Martha's
for ice cream or for lunch, they wouldn't have to go onto Route 9,
across Route 9, make a left hand turn, come down 100 feet, then
make another left hand turn across. What was encouraged is to have
an interconnection between commercial properties.
MR. D. LAFONTAINE-You just have conflicts with insurance companies,
insurance companies on the liability side.
MR. BREWER-That's in our Zoning Ordinance also, isn't it?
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(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
MR. GORALSKI-For new commercial uses.
MR. BREWER-Just new commercial uses.
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-I didn't put up that so called guardrail between
the zoo and our property. That was put up by the zoo. So I have
no say whether it can come down or not. That's not mine to say.
That's owned by the Zoological Park.
MR. PALING-Yes, but did you talk to them about the possibility of
taking that down and making it a common drive?
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-Well, they put it up there because they didn't
want cars going from one to the other. It wasn't like that until
just, what, a couple of years ago.
MR. PALING-So you haven't talked to them about it recently, though.
Okay.
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-He's sitting right back there.
MR. PALING-Okay. All right.
---
MR. RUEL-Can't people walk from one to the other? You don't have
to drive from one to the other, do you?
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-From the Zoo to our property?
MR. RUEL-Yes.
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-Yes, they can walk if they want.
MR. RUEL-Well, then why should someone leave the Zoo, go out on
Route 9, go back in again? It doesn't make, sense.
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-No.
MR. RUEL-They can just walk over, can't they?
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-Yes.
MR. RUEL-Now, what's on the other side of your property?
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-Kay's Motel.
MR. RUEL-They can do the same thing there.
MR. R.
problem.
LAFONTAINE-Yes. They do it all the time.
There's no barriers there.
Tha t 's no
MR. RUEL-Then the only vehicle she's talking about is the vehicular
barrier, right?
MR. PALING-To the Zoo.
MR. RUEL-Because there is no other barrier. They could walk.
Didn't we, at one time, talk about a brick walk in front of the Zoo
property, for just that, to gain access to other properties?
MR. GORALSKI-When the miniature golf course was in, we talked about
pedestrian access along Route 9 to connect all those properties.
MR. RUEL-Yes. So, can we continue on that basis, I mean, just
allow people to walk back and forth?
MR. GORALSKI-They do now. Yes.
MR. RUEL-Yes.
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(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
MR. PALING-How do you feel about the curb cut, cutting back on
that, to two?
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-I'm not quite sure what that was. I've never
seen a copy of this letter. So I don't know what it was all about.
MR. RUEL-They want to eliminate the center one, the center curb
cut.
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-The center driveway?
MR. RUEL-Driveway, yes.
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-That is the most viable one, I would imagine.
The one on the bottom, further south, is used mostly by the motel
guests. By eliminating the center one, I think we're going to
create, it's going to create more of a hassle in that one driveway,
because when we have our lines out there, the people, they can't
cut across the front of the ice cream stand, because of the lines,
that go from one driveway to another. If they come in the north
end of the driveway, they park on that side, or in my back lot, and
go out that side. They come in the center, they park there, and
the center one, the end one, the south one, goes to the motel,-and
the house that's there.
MR. RUEL-The center one we're talking about, is that the one
directly in front of the restaurant?
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-Directly in front of the restaurant.
MR. RUEL-Okay. I came in that way the other day, and I wanted to
go out the southern driveway, and I couldn't, because the lines
were too long.
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-Well, that's why I say, if you take that driveway
out now, you're going to have people trvinq to do just that.
MR. RUEL-If you take that driveway out, if you come in on the
southern one.
MR. D. LAFONTAINE-You're going force people to try and cut through
the line.
MR. RUEL-You can't get through, because of the lines.
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-But you're forcing people to try and do that,
because that lower driveway on the north end is not very wide, and
it's at a crazy angle because the house is there, and you've got,
the motel's back there.
MR. RUEL-Yes. John, I was just wondering whether the person who
made this assessment, as far as the removal of that curb cut, I
wonder if they were aware of the long lines that exist there, all
the way back to the highway practically.
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-Right. I don't want to go creating a hazard.
I've done everything I could on that property to avoid creating a
hazard with my customers out there, and I, to block off an entrance
and an exit which is very wide, it's a nice size entrance and exit,
is the main one used on that side, I'm telling you, people would
try driving through the lines.
MR. PALING-Maybe what they're saying is that the lower, that the
northerly entrance should be reconstructed and that the middle one
be done away with. I'm not sure I follow your reasoning when
you're saying crossing the lines, because I've driven in all of the
entrances and exits, I guess, there, and I've seen people, I don't
do it, I hope I don't, but I've seen people wend their way through
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(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
the people when they come in that middle slot. They're going to go
off to the left, out where you've got most of the parking, come
hell or high water, and that's why I'm not following your reasoning
that they would, it would tempt them to cut across. If you
eliminated that middle entrance, you might even add a few parking
spaces.
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-I think it would be creating a hazard.
MR. BREWER- If people realize that that entrance is not there
anYmore, they're either going to have to realize that they're going
to come in the southerly most entrance and park there, or the
northerly, and they're just going to realize that that entrance is
not there, and they can't go in there to park there or try to get
across.
MR. D. LAFONTAINE-So she addressed, at the beginning of the letter,
that the cars were having a problem not finding, looking and not
seeing a spot and having trouble getting in. If you shorten one
driveway, so it's going to have less access into the property.
You're lessening the access into the property.
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-And it's liable to back up things up on Route 9
even worse. We have a motel there. We have a restaurant. We have
a house on the property, and we have our ice cream business. We've
got to have the access to the property, without somebody thinking,
coming up, if they're heading south, coming up Route 9, and all of
a sudden they realize they're missing that one opening, and they
jam their brakes on, you know, I think it would create a problem.
We haven't had a, she's talking about accidents out there. We
haven't had any accidents caused by our property, per se. The last
two accidents were on the corner of Round Pond Road and Route 9,
and, you know, Round Pond Road is where there's an accident
problem, and they finally fixed that light up there after two years
of complaining. It was the darkest intersection there is, and they
just did it, what, two weeks ago, after the last accident.
MR. PALING-These are the people, however, who study and traffic
problems and provide us with input in regard to this, and we do
rely on them quite a bit because they go out and analyze it and
give us benefit of their findings and their experience, and so we
have to think heavily upon what they do submit as a recommendation,
and I think everybody here's been in and out of Martha's many
times.
MR. STARK-I have a question for John.
accidents in five years is a lot? I
hardly any, myself. What do YOU think?
John,
mean,
do you think three
I don't think it's
MR. GORALSKI - I'm not a traffic expert. I don't know if three
accidents in five years is a lot. I really don't know.
MR. STARK-For the amount of traffic that goes in and out of the
place for six months of the year, I don't think that's a lot.
Maybe you could argue three is three too many, but.
MR. GORALSKI-The only thing I can say is I think sometimes, in
their busiest times, whether it be during lunch or on the weekends
in the evenings, but when they're busy I think access from the site
is a little bit confusing, and anything that can be done to kind of
make things more defined as to where you're supposed to go, where
you're supposed to turn in, where you're supposed to park, would be
helpful.
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-Everything has been striped. I do it every year.
My driveways are all striped. There's arrows there. Everything is
well marked. All my parking places are defined. I honestly think
I've done everything and more than I can. We built a successful
- 14 -
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(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
business. I don't feel we should be penalized for it.
MR. BREWER-I don't think anybody wants to penalize you, and I think
what this Board has been doing in the past and hopefully will
continue to do it is to cut down on the curb cuts. Right up the
street we eliminated some. Up the street we've tried, and on
Quaker Road. Many, many places we've tried to eliminate extra curb
cuts. I don't know how far that span is.
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-The front of our property is 500 feet.
MR. GORALSKI-Three entrances in 500 feet, I would agree with Staff
and Glens Falls Transportation, that I think if you define the
entrances, people may not get used to it riqht away, but I think
it'll be better off in the long run.
MR. RUEL-Now, the recommendation for the reduction in curb cuts by
this agency is to eliminate accidents? Is that it? Because it's
accident prone?
MR. BREWER-Accidents and/or maybe confusion. If there's less
confusion, there's less of a chance, probably, for an accident.
..--
MR. PALING-They keep trying to preach to us, Roger, that the more
accesses that you have, the more confusion it is to traffic, as
traffic is passing. If they can come at you three ways, it's
harder than if they can only come at you two or one, and the fewer
accesses that you have, practically speaking, the better off you
are, and I think that's their basic message to us, and, George, you
had a comment.
MR. STARK-I'd like to wait, before we discuss anYmore, and get
Art's comments, from the Zoological Park, to see if they can
internalize off Route 9. Do you know what I'm saying?
MR. PALING-Okay. Yes. I think I agree. If there are no other
comments at the moment, lets open the public hearing on this
matter. Is there anyone here that would care to speak about this?
PUBLIC HEARING OPENED
ART SMITH
MR. SMITH-Okay. My name is Art Smith. I represent the Lake George
Zoo for David Osbourne. First off, we are not against this. We
feel it goes right with the business. It should have been there a
long time ago. So we are not against it. The only thing we have,
and we've sol ved it, but I'd just like to bring it to your
attention. I've made an agreement with Roger, and it's all taken
care of, but there's been a little garbage problem. The stuff
would blow over. People, you can put a garbage can here, and
they're going to throw it on the ground, but I've talked to Roger,
and his man is picking it up. So we have no problem. As far as
the guardrail, we put that up because of our insurance company.
People from Martha's would drive, zoom, right up through our
parking lot, go through our front entrance and out to the, up there
by the miniature golf course. It's like a race track, and my
insurance man almost got run over one day. That did it. So that's
why we put that up. Because we are liable. He says we are liable
if they hurt someone on our property, or have an accident. That's
what the insurance company says. We are in the process of blocking
our other driveways up. We don't want parking on there. We are
stopping all parking there. We've had some problems just recently.
I did. I asked the gentleman to move, and he proceeded to tell me
my pedigree, and was going to fight with me.
MR. PALING-He was parking in the Zoo parking lot and doing business
elsewhere.
- 15 -
(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
MR. SMITH-In the evening, going over to Martha's. People park
there, even if he's half full. They still park at my place. It
makes sense. It's an empty parking lot, but we're liable, and when
they throw their garbage out up by my gorilla and that, you know,
I don't expect Roger to go clear up there.
MR. PALING-So you're blocking access in the evening.
MR. SMITH-To the evening.
MR. PALING-In the evening you'll block it off.
MR. SMITH-From six o'clock on, my entrance, the whole big parking
lot down below will be blocked off.
MR. PALING-Okay.
MR. SMITH-But we're in favor of what they're doing.
MR. PALING-Okay. Thank you. Is there anyone else who would care
to comment?
RICK ROGGE
~
MR. ROGGE-My name is Rick Rogge. I'm a resident here in Town, and
I think that what they're proposing is a good idea. I'm for it.
Regarding the three entrances, I've been there on numerous
occasions, as most people in Town have, and I think the three
entrances is actually a good idea, because if the parking lot is a
little congested instead of sitting out on the street waiting for
some place to go, I can simply move to the next entrance, get off
the highway and immediately move into the parking place. So I
think it would be a bad idea to change the current arrangement.
Thank you.
MR. PALING-Thank you. Do we have anyone else that would care to
comment? Okay. If there is no one else, then we will close the
public hearing.
PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED
MR. PALING-Okay. Now, do we have any comments from Rist-Frost on
this?
MR. GORALSKI-They didn't comment.
MR. PALING-Okay. So we are to the point, and this is a Type II,
yes. Right. So there is no SEQRA involved.
MR. GORALSKI-Right.
MR. PALING-So I guess it's up to us now, to talk it over a little
bit and come to a conclusion with a motion. Well, lets start with
Craig. How do you feel, Craig?
MR. MACEWAN-We've been working hard in trying to cut down the
number of curb cuts throughout the Town, and it's a bad corridor up
through there. To top it off, that particular area, you know, with
Round Pond Road coming out there and some other businesses makes it
very congested. I'm in favor of closing off the middle one.
MR. PALING-Yes. George?
MR. STARK-No, and for the reason that, coming south many times
during the day, I have to wait a lot of times while people take a
right in there, and I think if you cut off the middle one, you're
going to have to wait longer. People turn in the first one, they
turn in the second one, they turn in the third one. A lot of times
- 16 -
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(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
I'm waiting, and I'm coming down at night a lot of times, too. I
don't think we have to.
MR. PALING-Okay. Cathy?
MRS. LABOMBARD-I think this is a tough one. It's been operating
all these years, probably quite successfully, and I know that our
job is to try to eliminate the curb cuts, but I just don't know.
I know what George is saying is true. Personally, I've been in
there so many times. You have to be careful. There's always lots
of traffic there. I don't know eliminating which one would be the
best, to tell you the truth. I don't know. Maybe if it's working
successfully, if three accidents in five years is, considering the
number of people that are in and out of there, maybe that's not a
bad record. Maybe you ought to just leave it alone.
MR. PALING-Okay.
MRS. LABOMBARD-But like I say, I really, I think this is a tough
one.
MR. PALING-Roger?
--
MR. RUEL-Do we necessarily have to buy the Glens Falls
Transportation Council's recommendations?
MR. PALING-It's an input. It's a recommendation like any input
that we have, and we have to take that along with all of them.
MR. RUEL-I know, but can we have our own traffic engineer look at
this? I'm not convinced. I'm siding a bit with George, in that,
in most cases, the elimination of curb cuts seems to be a logical
thing, and I certainly buy it. However, this is an entirely
different situation. Where this building is located, the number of
lines of people in front of it, the access and the exits. It just
seems to me that the more entrances you have, or the more exits you
have, the better it is, in that particular case. In most cases
I've seen, it didn't work that way, but in this case, and this is
why I'm not totally convinced that GFTC is necessarily 100% right,
in this case, and I was wondering, is it possible for us to have
another party, an engineering or traffic engineer look at this, in
light of.
MR. PALING-I think you could hire one, but I don't think we have
one.
MRS. LABOMBARD-I don't think we need to go to that.
MR. RUEL-Well, if we don't go that way, then I don't necessarily
buy this Glens Falls Transportation Council, 100%.
MR. PALING-So you're saying leave it as it is?
MR. RUEL-I would, yes, in this case. I think this is a different
case.
MR. PALING-Okay. Dave?
MR. WEST-I think I have to agree with Roger. I'd like to hear a
little bit more on what exactly is this access management plan that
they're alluding to in this letter. What are the details of it?
Yes. It probably would be nice to eliminate one of the curb cuts,
but I think, based on the situation, the different entrances, where
they're going, the flow of traffic, I don't think that eliminating
a curb cut is justified.
MR. BREWER-I agree with the Transportation Council and Staff, in
that, if we are to eliminate a curb cut, it makes the best sense to
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(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
eliminate the curb cut where the biggest mass of people are. I
think if you've got cars coming down the road 40 ~iles an hour,
they go by the first one. They know there's a second one. Heaven
forbid if there ever should be anybody pull in there. I'm not
saying it'll happen. I'm not saying it won't happen. I hope it
doesn't happen, but I think in the past we've done it, with every
other possibility that we can, and I think we should continue. I
don't think we should pick one business and say, no, lets not do it
to him and do it to the next one.
MR. PALING-George, did you want to add additional?
MR. STARK-Yes. It seems like, you know, they came to us for
approval for the place that sells hamburgers and hot dogs, and
we're holding them up by saying, well, okay, we'll approve that, if
you eliminate a curb cut. That's like if someone else wanted to
come for an approval for something else. Say he wanted to add more
motel units. Are we going to make him eliminate a curb cut on
that, then? I don't see the connection really.
MR. MACEWAN-I think you're way off base, George.
MR. PALING-All right. Lets get a comment from Staff or legal on
that issue. That's a good question.
MR. SCHACHNER-I'm not sure I follow the comment, only in that that
would actually be precisely when, when somebody seeks a site plan
review or a modification of a previous site plan approval, that
would actually, I think, legally, at least, be the appropriate time
for the Planning Board to consider things like traffic flow, and
you don't have to have the perfect match up. In other words, it
doesn't have to be traffic flow, for example, created by the
additional restaurant or the additional trailer serving food. From
a legal standpoint, the appropriate time for the Planning Board to
look at any number of issues, including traffic, would be when an
applicant would returns to the Planning Board and seeks some type
of modified approval or additional approval. From a legal
standpoint, I would be more troubled by, if a Planning Board felt
it wanted to try to reach out and get somebody to eliminate a curb
cut or do something like that when there was no application
pending. That would trouble me.
MR. PALING-All right, and I better give my own feeling here before
I go any further. I think we all remember the situation on Route
9 not too far from Martha's and the Passarelli thing where we let
it go at two curb cuts, and, wow, did we get brought down on that
one, and told that it was wrong, and I believe in what the
Department of Transportation says, that the more exits and
entrances you have, it's more confusing to the drivers going in
both directions, and the fewer that you have, the safer that you
are, and the much more stable condition, and I personally feel that
in this situation, they should keep the south entrance access as it
is, eliminate the middle one, and perhaps even do a reconstruction
job on the north one, so that you do have the best possible
condition, and do some more striping in the lot where you've lost
that curb cut. So I guess we've all spoken our peace on this.
Unless there's further comment, we'll entertain a motion to act on
it.
MR. STARK-Why don't you ask the applicant, if it appears that this
is the only way it's going to pass.
MR. PALING-Would the LaFontaine's come back up to the table,
please. The only other thing I was going to add is the Department
of Transportation also indicated that, with the re-development of
Route 9, they're probably going to ask for this to be done anyway,
the widening of Route 9.
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(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
MR. D. LAFONTAINE-When we talked to the State last, they plan on
re-striping the road and changing, the center lines of the road.
That's what they plan. They didn't say anything about changing the
curb.
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-Well, they plan on wideninq the road, and that is
the time for something to be done, not in the middle of the season.
They're planning on widening the road, apparently from Sweet Road
down to 149 and re-doing that whole road.
MR. MACEWAN-But when they re-do that road, that will be done during
the summer months, which would be in the middle of your season.
MR. BREWER-They're not going to do that road in the spring, George.
MR. STARK-That's the way I understood it. O'Connor put in a bid
for it or something, and he was telling me that they had to do it
in the spring. They couldn't do it in the summer months.
MR. RUEL-What's the schedule?
MR. STARK-Next year they're supposed to do it.
.----
MR. PALING-' 98.
MR. BREWER-It would make sense if they could do it in the spring,
but, boy, I don't see how they could. That's a long stretch of
road.
MR. STARK-Well, from history, when they did our section from 149 to
the Beach Road, April, May, June, and they had to be out of there
by the Fourth of July. They did the same thing, you know put the
curbs in and the bricks and the red planters and all that. They
wouldn't let them do it in the summer.
MR. PALING-Well, as Cathy says, we've got a very difficult
situation here, to make a decision one way or the other, but
unfortunately that's our duty, is to decide on these things, vote
on them, and that's the process. Has anything we've said changed
your mind, or what do you think?
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-Not really. I feel the same way I did before.
I'm afraid it would create accidents. You've got people that go to
turn in, and they miss that southern driveway, and they're going to
hit their brakes. It's true. It's very true. I've watched the
traffic flow. The road is designed wrong. It's not my fault. The
State of New York, when they re-did that road back in '85, '86, an
engineer from the State of New York actually published in a State
news letter saying that that road was designed wrong, and that it
would have to be re-done at some time in the future, which still
hasn't been re-done. The road design is wrong. The center line is
wrong. They did it. I didn't do it. I have been having to live
with it. We do the best we can. Our property is well marked. Our
driveways are well marked. Everything is striped. We've got
arrows in and out. I mean, really, I'd be afraid of creating a
problem where somebody wants to go out the north driveway and is
going to cut through that, trying cutting through those lines of
people. You have yo yo's out there, and you all know it.
MR. WEST-Has anybody ever been struck in your parking lot?
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-No. No one has ever been struck in our parking
lot.
MR. D. LAFONTAINE-You're going to create an accident by cutting off
an access for people to get out of their driveway. Now they want
to head south on our property, they can't go out from that side,
from the north end of the property anymore, so they figure they
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(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
have to go, they're going to have to cut through the lines to get
up there. They're not going to go t,o the north end of the property
to go up the hill.
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-We have never had an accident in our driveway,
and we have never had anyone struck in our lot. Any accidents that
have happened have been out in the road, and most of them have been
involved with Round Pond Road, which is out from us. It's across
from the Zoo more than it is from us.
MRS. LABOMBARD-See, I think maybe this is an exception. I know
just what you're saying about slamming your brakes on. I know just
where you're coming from.
MR. BREWER-What do you mean, slamming your brakes on, Cathy?
MRS. LABOMBARD-Well, you're going south, and you decide, yes,
there's Martha's, I want an ice cream, and you miss that first
turn, and it's just, the way the road kind of comes up and goes, it
starts going up the hill there. It just is always, to me, an
unpleasant situation, and, where, if you miss the first turn in.
MR. D. LAFONTAINE-Then you're going to force them to go up to~he
south end entrance, and if the parking lot is full, you're going to
force them to come back through the line to the north end of the
property.
MR. PALING-But can't you say that about any parking lot, if you
miss Wal-Mart, where the light is coming south, that you turn in
the next one? And they only have two entrances there.
MR. BREWER-Cathy, the thing I'm trying to say is, the most
northerly entrance, the next one is the shortest span, so if you go
by the first one, more than likely you're going to be half way
beyond the second one. You're going to have to go in the third
one. So, if that's not here, you could still go in.
MRS. LABOMBARD-I see what you're saying. I know what you're
saying, and I'm not going to disagree with you there either. I
just think it's a precarious situation to begin with, and maybe
what we have has been working. I just don't know if we should
change it.
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-What I'm trying to explain is, the cars coming,
heading south, they're going to be coming up there, and this is
actually the shortest driveway, the narrowest driveway right here,
the one on the south end. They're going to miss that, because
there is a house there, as you well know, and there are trees
there. They're going to miss that one as they see the ice cream
stand, or the restaurant, or the grill, whatever they happen to
want to go to, or the motel. Now, if this driveway is no longer
here, they're going to have to keep going and go into this second
one. That is the problem driveway, because if you go out there and
look at the road, that's where the turning lane is, going to Round
Pond Road. That is, it would be a real hazard. I'm telling you it
would be creating a hazard. This center one is the most used
driveway. It is the most used driveway.
MR. PALING-But the center one is on the far side, it's away from
your parking lot. Excuse me. It's right in front of the
restaurant. So many times to get through there you've got to go
through people.
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-No. They use the north driveway when they're
going to this back parking lot.
MR. PALING-But what about if they come in the one in the middle?
Which way should they turn?
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(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-If they come in the one in the middle, they're
either parking in front of the res~aurant or on the right side of
the restaurant. I have parking all the way back there.
MR. PALING-Or making their way through the crowd.
MRS. LABOMBARD-No, Bob.
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-This center driveway goes to the restaurant here.
Here's the ice cream stand here.
MR. PALING-Right.
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-Okay. This center driveway goes to the
restaurant here, the parking here, and to the motel here, and this
driveway here goes to the back parking lot here, and the additional
parking here. This center driveway is very viable.
MRS. LABOMBARD-It is. We always use it.
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-It's the most viable driveway on the property.
MR. MACEWAN-I have a question for Staff. Do you, offhand, know
what the plans are for that road reconditioning, what they hav~ on
the books?
MR. GORALSKI-Actually, the only thing I can tell you is if you read
the wording of the GFTC letter, they have not developed final plans
yet.
MR. MACEWAN-So you don't know whether that section of the road is
going to be widened or just re-surfaced or re-striped or what?
MR. GORALSKI-I do not know, and I don't believe their final plans
have been made. I think their final plans won't be made until they
complete the access management plan, which has not been completed
yet.
MR. MACEWAN-If they go ahead with their plans through that whole
section up there, and they deem not only this parcel, but maybe
some other selected parcels along the road need, at that time, to
have access cut off, will they take control of it and go ahead and
do it?
MR. GORALSKI-I don't know, legally, what ability they have to do
that. Mark might be able to answer that better. I know they do
have control over access. One of the things they have to do is
provide access to the highway.
MR. SCHACHNER-The answer is, they're certainly not required,
"they", the State, is not required to provide more than one access.
The State is the entity that would have the legal authority to
close off an entrance, if it felt it was appropriate. That's not
something that's to be done without a procedure, and you already
have the curb cuts there. It would be a matter between the
applicant and the State as to whether that was done validly or not.
MR. MACEWAN-How do they go about doing that? Do they notify the
applicant saying that, you know, our upcoming work schedule, we
plan on taking out one of your entrances? How does it work?
MR. SCHACHNER-Typically, there would be a notification of the
applicant, and typically the applicant would have an opportunity to
make his position known to the State. Let me just make a
generalized statement. It's a lot tougher for the State or any
entity to come along and try to go back and remove curb cuts that
have already been approved or have been there, unless the applicant
was trying to gain some additional approval, which the applicant
would not be trying from the State.
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(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
MR. PALING-We have a tough situation here, and I'm not sure what's
going to happen, but I want to get just one other thought in this,
and someone else had the same thought I did. Supposing we did
require that the middle access be closed, but we said that the re-
construction and the work on it didn't have to be done until after
the middle of October? Would that make a difference to you?
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-No. The middle driveway is the most viable
dri veway there. It's tough to, you know, if something's not
broken, why fix it? And it's not broken. We haven't had a problem
there. There is traffic at times, but we haven't had a problem.
MR. D. LAFONTAINE-Charlie Wood has some serious traffic down there.
He creates a back up on his Route 9, because you expect it. It's
a busy location.
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-We have a busy location, and people that go
there, especially our local customers, know, there's liable to be
a back up, and they know the area. It's not broken, why fix it?
That middle driveway is really a viable driveway.
MR. STARK-I think the owners know more than Joanna Brunso about
this situation. They've been there for many years, 17 year~or
something like that. Martha had it for, like, 35 years before
that. They know what's valuable to them and what isn't.
MR. PALING-How would you feel about closing the northerly entrance?
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-If anything, that's the one I would consider,
and, again, not in mid season. I just, you know, don't want to be
putting construction equipment there and everything else.
MRS. LABOMBARD-My suggestion is, why don't we just leave it alone,
and in 1998, when the Department of Transportation comes in and
builds the new road, let them put their two cents in and mandate
whatever they want.
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-If I may put my two cents in, in that respect,
what I was trying to think of, when you were talking, back in '85,
'86, when they re-did that road, the State did come in and tell us
where our driveways would be and what size they would be. The
driveways that are there now, the State is the one who put the
curbing in. They're the ones that put the brick in. They're the
ones who told us what size they were going to be.
MR. MACEWAN-Did you have three existing ones prior to the State?
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-No, prior to the State, we had, actually we had
almost the whole front open. We had one little curb there, which
was, I don't know, maybe, the State's the one who came in and told
us what we have to have, and I imagine they're going to do the same
thing again, but right now we really have had no problem, and I'm
afraid of creating a problem.
MR. WEST-How did they arrive at three driveways?
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-Because of the fact there was a house, a motel,
a restaurant and the ice cream stand. They went by the fact where
the motels were located out back you needed an access to it and
from it, without cars cutting through the lines. People coming in
and out of the motels use that most southern driveway, because it's
a straight shot. Now, without the southern driveway, they're going
to come out of the motels. They're going to be cutting across and
out one of the other driveways.
MR. BREWER-Why wouldn't they go straight out? Why do you insist
that they have to go across that line?
- 22 -
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(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-I'm not insisting.
avoid.
That's what I'm trying to
MR. BREWER-Traffic can be controlled, can't it?
MR. D. LAFONTAINE-It's very well controlled now. We don't have a
problem.
MR. R. LAFONTAINE - We
controlled right now.
don't have a problem. It's very well
Why create a problem when there is not one?
MR. PALING-All right.
everybody.
MR. MACEWAN-I'd be willing to be flexible here, and he's saying if
he had to do without a curb cut, he could live without the northern
curb cut. I'd be willing to go along with that, and doing his re-
vamping of it in the off season.
Any final comments?
One more shot for
MR. PALING-Okay. George, do you want to make anymore comment?
MR. STARK-No. ~
MR. PALING-Cathy?
MRS. LABOMBARD-No. You know how X feel.
MR. PALING-Okay. Roger?
MR. RUEL-Stick to my original comment.
MR. PALING-Dave?
MR. WEST-No.
MR. PALING-Okay. Tim?
MR. BREWER-I'm fine.
extent.
I would agree with Craig, I think, to an
MR. PALING-Close the north.
MR. BREWER-Close the north and do it off season.
MR. PALING-Do it off season.
MR. MACEWAN-Just an added thought to this. If we decide, and the
vote goes that we don't do anything about this, and the State
comes, next year or the year after, you may not have a choice or an
opportunity to work with it, and we're giving you an opportunity,
here, to work with it, at least.
MR. D. LAFONTAINE-Even if you guys make us put one driveway, and
the State could come in and change it.
MR. R. LAFONTAINE-They could come in and change the whole thing.
MR. MACEWAN-They probably won't, because now you've got it down to
two. Because they've sent those messages to us, as well,
especially when we dealt with the Passarelli site up the road. The
State did say that, although there was room for, I think, three
curb cuts up there. Is that what it was? They wanted to see less
than that.
MR. PALING-They wanted one.
MR. MACEWAN-They wanted one.
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(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
MR. PALING-All right. I will entertain a motion.
MOTION TO APPROVE SITE PLAN NO. 21-96 ROGER LAFONTAINE, Introduced
by Roger Ruel who moved for its adoption, seconded by Catherine
LaBombard:
For a trailer at the site.
Duly adopted this 30th day of May, 1996, by the following vote:
MR. BREWER-No, with the qualification that I think that one curb
cut should be removed, and I don't think this Board is being
consistent by approving it.
AYES: Mr. Stark, Mrs. LaBombard, Mr. Ruel, Mr. West
NOES: Mr. Brewer, Mr. MacEwan, Mr. Paling
SITE PLAN NO. 19-96 TYPE II ALFRED J. MERCHANT OWNER: BESSIE E.
CALLEJO ZONE: LC-10A LOCATION: CORMUS ROAD APPLICANT PROPOSES
TO CONSTRUCT A SINGLE FAMILY RESIDENCE ON 1.67 ACRES. CROSS
REFERENCE: AV 4-1996 AV 36-1996 WARREN CO. PLANNING: 5/8/96
TAX MAP NO. 124-1-9 LOT SIZE: 1.67 ACRES SECTION: 179-13/
JIM MILLER, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT
ALFRED MERCHANT, PRESENT
STAFF INPUT
Notes from Staff, Site Plan No. 19-96, Alfred J. Merchant, Meeting
Date: May 30, 1996 "The applicant is proposing to construct a
home on a 1.67 acre piece of property on Cormus Road. The
applicant has received setback and permeability variances from the
ZBA for this proj ect. Any comments from Rist Frost should be
addressed prior to the Planning Board taking action on this
application. Staff would recommend approval of Site Plan No. 19-
96."
MR. PALING-Okay, and you've got the County.
MR. GORALSKI-The County had No County Impact. There were variances
that were approved. Rist Frost comments, "We have reviewed the
site plan received May 2, 1996 and have the following engineering
comments: Variances have been granted for non-conforming setbacks
and permeable area in an LC-10A zone. Town of Queensbury must
approve curb cut. Vegetation may limit visibility for access. No
utilities connections or water well locations are shown on the site
plan. The stormwater management report indicates no increase in
site runoff. The drywell overflow pipes discharge toward the rear
of the site. Test pits and perc test locations and results should
be shown. The plan indicates the general location of the septic
system. Details need to be shown and noted on plan. A perc test
should be performed at the septic site to confirm compliance with
DOH regulations. Also design flows should be indicated.
MR. PALING-Are there any others, John, any letters or whatnot?
MR. GORALSKI-No. That's all I have.
MR. RUEL-What's the zone on here?
MR. GORALSKI-Land Conservation 10 Acres.
MR. MILLER-My name is Jim Miller. I'm a Landscape Architect. I'm
here with Al Merchant who is under contract to purchase the
property. The site is an existing nonconforming site. It was
existing when the land was re-zoned for 10 acre Land Conservation,
and that's why the variances were required, because a 10 acre lot,
- 24 -
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(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
obviously a much larger site was required. In response to Rist-
Frost's comments, the driveway permit will be required and the
grading of that driveway, selection of that driveway location, I'll
go over that. Cormus Road is a dead end, at the south side. So
the driveway is entering out on the low end of the site, and it's
also exiting in the direction where Cormus Road intersects with
Luzerne Road. The grading there, we brought the driveway in at
about a three percent grade. So that we can have a level area
before the driveway drops onto the site, and the filling of that
area, in addition, some clearing will be required. I think we'll
meet the visibility requirements. The utility connections weren't
shown. To be honest, we don't know exactly how they'll come in.
They're going to come in off of Cormus Road. They'll either follow
the driveway or come the shortest direction in from Cormus Road,
and will probably be made by the utility companies. The stormwater
discharge, we've completed a stormwater management report, and
we're siting drywells throughout the site, for infiltration, and
we've allowed to avoid drainage across the road. We have culvert
pipe with overflow, on the lower end of the site. The septic
system, Haanen Engineering is going to be doing the septic design,
and it's our understanding that's going to require a separate
permit, and that information will be submitted. The location of
the septic system was selected. It looks like the site--- was
previously graded. There was an existing driveway and that area
had been graded, and it was the flattest area on the site. So
that's why part of the house location in the site plan was to allow
for that area to be utilized for septic. There will be deep tests,
perc tests and engineering design done on that. We've also, we did
have a well location indicated, and the well location, we've
indicated, at the north portion of the site, away from the
leachfield, and one thing that I'd like to add about this. This
sand, Cormus Road here, beautiful views down to the east, to Glens
Falls, and when Al came to us to talk about this, he wanted to
locate up there on the hill, and he knows the access from Luzerne
Road and the steepness of the site is going to be a concern, and in
locating the house, we pretty well have located it in a way that
the only way that we could really access the driveway, and the
house plan that he's selected has a lower level access, and the
driveway is located at the low corner of the site. We have a three
percent grade at the top intersection to allow a car to stop
exiting. It drops fairly steeply about 15%, then levels off across
the entrance of the house, which really established the upper floor
grade of the house, then continues, and it sweeps back a little bit
to give us a curve to the lower level, and this is about a ten
percent grade down to a flat area here. There will be a retaining
wall. It's going to be a concrete wall, possibly faced with stone,
that's going to be sloping along this area of the house to help
transition that grade. The grade on the upper side, we'd actually
end up cutting a little bit on the uphill side of the site, and
we're filling on the downhill side, and one of our concerns, other
than storm drainage, was erosion control on these slopes, and where
we have cut some of these slopes, stable soils, are one on one
slope, and in fill they're two horizontal to one vertical, and on
the detail sheet that was submitted, we're calling for these areas
to be seeded, mulched with straw, and then jute mesh netting
installed over the top of that, on all these disturbed areas. The
only area that's really going to be a finished lawn area is going
to be in this area near the septic field. The rest of it's going
to be natural, in an addition, what we've suggested is that in
these areas where the jute mesh is installed, once the seed becomes
established, to come in and reforest that with some hemlock and
maple oak seedlings to essentially create that back to a natural
condition. We've also, for storm drainage, in the limits of the
grading, are installing a silt fence.
MR. RUEL-The existing driveway, is that paved?
MR. MILLER-This here? No, that's just a dirt road that was cut in
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(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
there, Roger. This portion of the site had been cleared, and
there's an existing dirt road tha~ was cut down there to do some
grading, and I don't know why it was put there. The reason we
didn't use that, it's at a much higher point on the road than where
we came in. So it would have been not practical. It would have
been too steep to try to access that. This site drops about 90
feet from this corner to this corner.
MR. RUEL-You'll probably seed that area.
MR. MILLER-Yes.
MR. RUEL-This is new construction?
MR. MILLER-Yes.
MR. RUEL-It is Code to have a detached garage?
MR. GORALSKI-You can have a detached garage. You can't have two
garages.
MR. MILLER-Well, I think I labeled them both garage, and one is
actually a storage building, you know, for lawn mowers. ~
MR. GORALSKI-If he's got a detached garage, that other building
will have to be some type of storage building. He will not be able
to store motor vehicles in it.
MR. RUEL-The reason I ask is that I wanted to build a two car
garage, to put cars in it, and I was told I can't.
MR. GORALSKI-Did you have another garage on the property?
MR. RUEL-Yes. The house has an attached two car garage, and I
needed two more.
MR. GORALSKI-Right.
MRS. LABOMBARD-But this isn't an attached garage.
MR. MILLER-At the lower level, there's a grade access at the
basement level. The house is actually, it steps down the slope.
So the basement opens to the lower end.
MRS. LABOMBARD.,.. Right . So that's not considered an attached garage,
really.
MR. MERCHANT~Really, we're just covering our bases. We haven't
selected the definitive house yet. So I'm not sure if the garage
will fit into the basement. So if it doesn't, I've got something
to fall back on. If it does, I believe it might be just a storage
facility, if anything, maybe perhaps a woodworking shop or
something.
MR. RUEL-Do you have garage doors on the detached garage?
MR. MERCHANT-I wouldn't think so. It would probably be, you know,
more barn-ish type.
MR. STARK-Jim, how much fill are you going to have to put? That's
kind of like a plateau down there. I didn't think you had to put
too much fill in there at all.
MR. MILLER-Well, no, not very much. Where the fill is required,
because if we build the house, we'd need to fill a little bit on
the downhill side of the house. Actually we're going to have some
deep foundation walls there, and a little bit of fill to grade back
the natural grade on the downhill side, just because of the way
- 26 -
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(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
we're benching the driveway and the house in. There's not going to
be very much. No.
MR. RUEL-Staff, how are we doing on the Rist-Frost comments on this
application, have they been addressed?
MR. GORALSKI-Rist-Frost comments, Paul has addressed them. I think
mainly what they're looking for is some perc test data and some
deep test pit data.
MR. PALING-I don't think we have any trouble with not commenting on
the location of the utilities and the water well.
MR. GORALSKI-The well is on there. The utilities, the way they
come in, it's been addressed already.
MR. RUEL-It's okay?
MR. MILLER-No matter how we draw it, NiMo goes the way they want.
MR. PALING-Yes, well, the perc tests are there twice.
MR. MILLER-We had included some information in the stormwater
management report on the perc tests for the drywells. We will add
that to the plan. We will have to submit the septic design, and
the perc test for the septic design, when that's submitted for
permit, that will be included with that design.
MR. PALING-But we'd have to still make it conditional on the perc
test, at least for the stormwater management end of it.
MR. MILLER-Well, that perc test is included in the stormwater
management report. It just was not on the plan.
MR. RUEL-It's supposed to be on the plan.
MR. MILLER-Yes. I'll add it to the plan.
MR. PALING-Okay. That's all right. Then the other is taken care
of when there's a septic system permit process.
MR. GORALSKI-Right. They will have to get a septic permit from the
Building Department, and at that time, what I would recommend is
that you put a condition that when they get their permit for their
septic system, that they provide perc test data, location of the
septic field.
MR. PALING-Okay. That shouldn't be any problem. All right. Okay.
This is a Type II. There is a public hearing. So we'll open the
public hearing on this matter now. Does anyone care to speak or
comment on this?
PUBLIC HEARING OPENED
RICK ROGGE
MR. ROGGE-Hi. My name is Rick Rogge and I live on Cormus Road. I
have property adjacent to the property that we're talking about
right here. I'm next door. I have one question, and that is the
storm sewers. I understand that there's a pipe being put
underneath the driveway and I was just wondering where that was
going to be piped to.
MR. PALING-Okay. Was that your only question on that?
MR. ROGGE-Yes it was.
MR. PALING-Okay. Thank you. All right. Would you care to comment
- 27 -
(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
on that?
MR. MILLER-Sure. First, the only drainage that comes on the site
is from the center line of Cormus Road over. There's a drainage
ditch on the other side that intercepts the drainage from the hill
above us and takes it off site. We'll have a stone lined swale on
the uphill side of the driveway that will go into drywells.
There's one drywell. In this area it's six foot by eight foot deep
and it was three drywells that pick up the water in this expanse
(lost word) by the storage shed and the garage, and the pipe that
goes under the driveway, the only reason for that is just an
overflow. Ninety-five percent of the time, the stormwater
management report addresses a 50 year storm that most of the
stormwater will be infiltrated into the soil. That is purely a
safety precaution. If there's a situation where it would overflow,
it overflows in two points, on each side of the house, and that's
only so the water doesn't overflow the driveway, and right now, the
site drains in a northeasterly direction, and actually further down
the mountain it turns into a stream down here. So what would
happen with this is it would discharge in two points, and these
would be rip wrapped, and then it would continue down the natural
course it flows now, and there'd be no increase in what's flowing
down there now. ~
MR. ROGGE-The dotted line. Is that where the telephone pole line
is?
MR. MILLER-This here?
MR. ROGGE-Yes.
MR. MILLER-I don't know if it's a pole line there.
roadway that goes over and down.
It's an old
MR. ROGGE-Yes. Okay. All right. I've lived up there for over 11
years. I'm really familiar with the property, and I've picked
berries on this particular property for probably most of those 11
years. This plan makes a lot of sense, and some other people have
tried to build there before, and I was very opposed to those plans
because I didn't think they made sense, and I did not think they
were good ideas. I've never seen a plan that made more sense for
this particular piece of property, and as the person who lives
right next door to it, I fully support it. Thank you.
MR. PALING-Okay. Thank you. Okay. Are there any other comments
or questions?
MR. RUEL-The drywells are four feet?
MR. MILLER-There was four of them, yes.
MR. RUEL-Four feet deep.
MR. MILLER-Six feet by eight feet. One of them was six by eight.
The other are four foot deep.
MR. PALING-Okay.
comment?
Do we have a motion, bearing in mind John's
MR. SCHACHNER-Did you close the public hearing?
MR. PALING-I'm sorry. Does anyone else care to comment on this
matter? Okay. If not, the public hearing is closed. Thank you.
PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED
MOTION TO APPROVE SITE PLAN NO. 19-96 ALFRED J. MERCHANT,
Introduced by Roger Ruel who moved for its adoption, seconded by
- 28 -
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(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
George Stark:
To construct a single family residence on 1.67 acres, with two
conditions. One, to provide perk test data at time of septic
design application. Two, stormwater management perk tests to be
included on the plan. Three, that the applicant shall have only
one garage on site.
Duly adopted this 30th day of May, 1996, by the following vote:
AYES: Mr. MacEwan, Mr. Stark, Mrs. LaBombard, Mr. Ruel,
Mr. West, Mr. Brewer, Mr. Paling
NOES: NONE
OLD BUSINESS:
SITE PLAN NO. 24-95 TYPE II MODIFICATION WILLIAM THREW OWNER:
SAME ZONE: LI-1A LOCATION: BIG BAY ROAD APPLICANT PROPOSES
REVISIONS WHICH INCLUDE SIZE AND LOCATION OF THE PHASE 2 BUILDING,
PEAKED ROOF, PARKING PREVIOUSLY INDICATED AS FUTURE WILL BE
INCLUDED IN PHASE 2 AND WILL BE SIZED TO ACCOMMODATE TRAILER
PARKING AS WELL AS CARS, INLETS AND DRYWELLS HAVE BEEN ADDED TO
COLLECT RUNOFF AND ADDITIONAL SCREEN PLANTING OF 15 PINES TO BE
ADDED ALONG THE EAST SIDE OF PARKING AREA TOWARD BIG BAY ROAD TO
PROVIDE VISUAL SCREENING OF THE PARKING AREA. BEAUTIFICATION
COMM. : 5/6/96 TAX MAP NO. 137-2-7.3 LOT SIZE: 7.7 ACRES
SECTION: 179-26
JIM MILLER, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT
MR. PALING-This is a modification.
hearing on something like this?
Why don't we have a public
MR. GORALSKI-You can require a public hearing, if you feel the
modification is significant enough. It is not required.
MR. PALING-Okay. John, your comments, please.
STAFF INPUT
Notes from Staff, Site Plan No. 24-95, William Threw, Meeting Date:
May 30, 1996 "The applicant is proposing revisions to a site
located on Big Bay Road including an increase in size and changing
the location of the Phase 2 building. These changes will result in
conforming setbacks and density for this site. Staff would
recommend approval of this site plan with the condition that the
plan be revised to indicate a phase line showing what area of the
site is to be included in Phase 2. Any development that is shown
as being a part of the second phase will need to be constructed
before a final Certificate of Occupancy can be issued. Comments
from May 24, 1996 Rist Frost memo should be addressed prior to any
Planning Board action."
MR. PALING-Okay.
MR. GORALSKI-This is from Rist-Frost. "We have reviewed the
modification to the approved site plan which were received on May
2, 1996 and have the following comments: A NYSDEC SPDES
Construction General Stormwater Discharge Permit is required if the
area to be disturbed is greater than five acres. Addition of stone
roof runoff construction trenches and the increase in infiltration
capacity should ensure adequate on-site drainage. The drain in-
lets to the drywells from the paved area could allow some minor
ponding, but would infiltrate rapidly even after a greater than 50-
year storm. Additional parking has been included to conform with
existing and future use. There are no further engineering
comments. If you have any questions please call." Signed Bill
- 29 -
(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
Levandowski.
MR. RUEL-Is that second comment, are they saying, yes, they're
agreeing with what he has?
MR. GORALSKI-Yes, I believe so.
MR. RUEL-Yes. That's an okay. The only one is the first one, if
it's over five acres.
MR. GORALSKI-And the Queensbury Beautification Committee, "Removed
island - 15 addition pines on Big Bay Road. All green space on Big
Bay side of building. Will approve if Phase I & II are completed.
Planning to finish Phase I. Moved by Mr. Lorenz, seconded by Mary
Reese."
MR. RUEL-John, could you exert your influence, talk to the
Beautification Committee, tell them to use a few more words. No,
really. They used to give us the details.
MR. GORALSKI-I will do that.
MR. RUEL-And now they don't do it anYmore. All right.
~
MR. GORALSKI-I will do that.
MR. PALING-Okay. This is Jim Miller's here. Is that in response
to Rist-Frost?
MR. GORALSKI-I think Jim Miller's letter is simply describing the
modification that they're proposing from the original site plan
approval.
MR. PALING-Okay.
MR. MILLER-I'm Jim Miller, Landscape Architect.
BILL THREW
MR. THREW-I'm Bill Threw.
MR. PALING-Okay. Have you seen the Rist-Frost letter?
MR. MILLER-Yes. We will submit the Stormwater Management report to
DEC, and the other two comments, I think he's agreeing with what
was submitted.
MR. RUEL-What about the first item?
MR. MILLER-The Stormwater Management report will be submitted to
DEC. It has not yet.
MR. PALING-I'm a little confused with the Beautification Committee,
too. Have you seen their letter?
MR. MILLER-Well, no. I was at the meeting, and I can explain.
They were concerned, the landscaping on Big Bay Road, at the end of
the Phase I building hadn't been completed, and they were
commenting that they wanted that area landscaped. In addition,
I'll go over the plan, that as part of the modification, we propose
an additional 15 pines to screen the area along Big Bay Road. We
suggested 15 additional pines for screening, and they agreed with
that, and I think their other approval was that, before they would
recommend approval on Phase III building, that all the landscaping
and site work for Phase I and II should be completed.
MR. PALING-All right. I think that's reasonable. Yes. Okay, and
the 15 pines, is that on the print?
- 30 -
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(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
MR. MILLER-Yes, it is.
MR. GORALSKI-Yes. If you look to the south of the entrance drive,
you'll see 15 white pines.
MR. PALING-Okay. So that should take care of that.
MR. GORALSKI-Just a comment. I noticed here, the way, I was out at
the site today, and the way the gravel fire lane has been
constructed, it does not turn around the east side of the existing
warehouse building. It actually comes straight out to the road.
MR. MILLER-Yes. That's part of the reason for the modification, is
the first phase, the second phase building is near completion right
now, and what's happened, in the construction of that building,
some things have changed relative to the Building Department fire
codes and the engineering of the building, that when we came back
in to talk to Staff about it, they said we should come back for
modification. The first thing was, the building size increased by
250 square feet, and that was because of the engineering system.
This is a pre-engineered metal building. It didn't change the
parking requirements or anything. In addition, there was also, you
know, originally there was going to be a fire wall separating the
two buildings because of the amount of space, and what happened,
the size of the space and trying to tie into the old concrete and
steel building, and the steel building, it really got to be an
engineering nightmare. So they had the area so one of the options
was to separate the two buildings by 10 feet, and that's what Bill
had done, and there's overhead doors and a connection between the
two, but they're essentially two freestanding buildings. In
addition, being a pre-engineered building, this has a sloped roof
on it, as opposed to the other building, which had a flat roof and
drains. So that changed our drainage requirements. Instead of
having roof drains going to drywells, we now have stone trench
drains down each side to collect that roof runoff, and that runs
into a series of drywells. So those were the changes, and as John
said, the Fire Marshal wanted to eliminate this gravel drive on the
east side of the building, and extend it straight out, to Big Bay
Road, which actually give us more lawn area and green space there,
and the hydrant locations were changed and things, and these things
have actually been going on since we've submitted this plan. So
those changes that have since happened, we will modify this plan
so, after this modification, it will be accurate. In addition, the
other requirements came out, this is leased by Encore and it's used
for storage of their paper products. Encore has come back and made
some requests, and actually additional loading doors were added
here, and the original plan, we had left some of this area as
unpaved, setting it aside for future spaces, and what's happening
with the circulation in here, Encore has asked that they have more
area here, and spaces that were previously going to be lawn an set
aside for future, they asked that they be added. So what we did
here was expand this area to accommodate the tractor trailers, and
that was why we made the suggestion on the east side, here, our
concern being, you know, increasing that pavement there. We
narrowed the pavement enough on this side. This is existing pines
in here. It's pretty heavy, to plant those additional 15 pines on
that east side, because the trees that are there, you can sort of
see under them a little bit, and that would give us a denser screen
to give us a more positive screening across.
MR. RUEL-Where would the trailer parking be?
MR. MILLER-Most of the tractor trailers come in, they load, unload
and leave, but with the depth of these parking spaces, it can
accommodate some storage of some trailers there. Right now, yes,
they store some right in this area here. So, the intent was to
widen this out to allow some trailer parking, but mostly to
accommodate the circulation that they need to get in and out of
- 31 -
(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
those loading docks.
MR. RUEL-AIl of the parking that's marked on here is for cars,
right?
MR. MILLER-Yes. Well, it's laid out as a car requirement. As we
talked about before, we really don't need that amount of car
spaces, but it will, you know, by designing it this way, it'll be
available for the circulation of the tractor trailers.
MR. RUEL-Is it wide enough for a trailer?
MR. MILLER-They're nine foot spaces.
MR. RUEL-That's wide enough?
MR. MILLER-No, but, you know, if a trailer parked there and
overlapped and they took, you know, and two of them took up three
spaces, it's not going to be a problem, because we have adequate
space. We're still, you know, 30% green space requirement, we're
still at 38%. So even with modifications, we're not.
MR. STARK-The modification is fine and everything, but I thought,
when we gave the approval for this before, that he was going to
clean up the back, and it still looks like an outhouse out there.
Plain and simple.
MR. BREWER-Do we have our previous motion, John?
MR. GORALSKI-That is included in a previous motion.
MR. BREWER-Yes, but I was just curious about the date. Didn't we
set a date or something?
MR. RUEL-Yes, there was.
MR. GORALSKI-Wasn't the motion prior to CO on the building?
MR. BREWER-I thought we set a date.
MR. STARK-I don't remember what the motion was, but I thought you
said you were going to clean it up or something.
MR. THREW-Yes. Before we could get approval of this, I'd have that
second phase all cleaned up, which it is. The third phase isn't
cleaned up yet. We've been concentrating on the second one right
now.
MR. PALING-But it does appear that he's moved that stuff back.
That's all wide open now, where it wasn't before. Now, I'm not
saying what is back there some day we've got to address, but for
the purpose of this, I believe he's clear.
MR. THREW-That stuff is going to disappear, too, because I've got.
MR. MILLER-One of the comments that Staff had made was showing a
line on this plan delineating the end of Phase II, which is
actually the line at the west end of the Phase II building, and I
believe it was their recommendations that the site work would have
to be done up to that Phase, and then the rear portion cleaned,
prior to moving in.
MR. GORALSKI-A final CO has not been issued on this building yet.
I will check that motion, and if there is a certain date or, I
thought what it said was before CO was issued.
MR. MACEWAN-That's what I recall.
- 32 -
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(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
MR. GORALSKI-Whatever that condition is, that condition will be,
they'll be required to do that before a final co is issued.
MR. PALING-Okay. Now, what is left to be done that the final
prints don't show.
MR. GORALSKI-There are a couple of things that I would like to see
on this plan. One is that the gravel fire lane, as it has been
installed, should be shown on the plan.
MR. PALING-Okay.
MR. MACEWAN-A question regarding that Farr Lane. Doesn' t· that
create another "curb cut"? Does that present a problem.
MR. MILLER-Well, it's only an emergency access.
MR. GORALSKI-It's an emergency access. It was requested by the
Building Inspector and the Fire Marshal.
MR. RUEL-Are you talking about this one here?
MR. MILLER-That one, Roger, goes straight out to the road. ---The
Fire Marshal didn't want it being, it was too close to the
building. If there was a fire, they would have trouble using it.
With it going straight out to Big Bay Road, they could come
straight in, and it's only 10 foot wide, and it's only to access
the rear of the building.
MR. RUEL-On your existing warehouse, you show a septic tank, and an
eight by eight foot leach pit.
MR. MILLER-That's existing.
MR. RUEL-Do you have one for the Phase II warehouse building?
MR. MILLER-The Phase II warehouse is, we share that one.
same company and there's only two people at the site.
connect the pipes from one to the other?
It's the
You'll
MR. BREWER-One bathroom.
MR. MILLER-No. There's no bathroom in the new one. There's only,
the office space and the bathroom is only in the first one.
MR. PALING-We've got the gravel line, and there's another one,
John?
MR. GORALSKI~Yes. The water line and the hydrant that run along
the north property, I spoke to Bill about this, and I believe he's
going to stop the hydrant at the north west corner of the Phase II
warehouse building. He's going to stop that line at the north west
corner of the Phase II warehouse building, and not extend it out to
that planter area until Phase III is developed.
MR. PALING-Okay.
MR. MILLER-Yes, and this hydrant here has also been located back
along the property line at the direction of the Fire Marshal. So
this hydrant on the plan will be moved back to here, and this
hydrant will move back here. This will be a future location for
Phase III, then.
MR. PALING-All right. So that will be, the hydrant locations have
got to be noted. Okay. Is there anything else, John? We've got
three of them, gravel line, the water line, and the hydrant
locations.
MR. GORALSKI-And then I would like to see specifically delineated
- 33 -
(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
on the plan where Phase II ends and Phase III begins.
MR. PALING-Yes. Right.
MR. GORALSKI-So all the work included in Phase II would be
complete~ prior to the issuance of a building permit.
MR. MILLER-Okay. John, I'm envisioning that that's going to be
pretty much in line with the north end, or the west end of the
Phase II building.
MR. GORALSKI-Back to the corner probably?
MR. MILLER-Yes.
MR. RUEL-You could show it with a dotted line or something on the
plan.
MR. MILLER-Yes. I'll show that.
MR. PALING-And it'll have to be run by Staff.
MR. GORALSKI-The other thing that the Planning Board should be
aware. Because Encore Paper is looking to get into the building
fairly quickly, and this was the earliest we could get them on for
this modification, we were planning to issue a temporary CO for
Encore to start providing paper (lost words). One of the previous
conditions, it didn't say anything about not issue a temporary CO
before cleaning up the building.
MR. PALING-Okay, conditions of last motion. So there's really five
items. The fifth item is the conditions of the last motion.
MR. MACEWAN-So what you're saying, then, if the conditions say that
the site, or this particular area all had to be cleaned up prior to
issuance of a CO in Phase II. If it doesn't have wording in there
to the effect that you can't even issue a temporary one, you'll go
ahead and issue one.
MR. GORALSKI-Yes. That's what our plan is right now.
MR. BREWER-What is the purpose of us saying that a CO won't be
issued until the stuff is done, then?
MR. GORALSKI -Well, in this particular case, a temporary CO is
issued for a certain amount of time, which will allow him to
complete the project, while they start (lost word) building. If
you want to make the motion that not even a temporary CO be issued,
that's certainly up to you.
MR. BREWER-I'm not saying that, but I thought our, when we say
that, as far as the that condition no CO will be issued, I thought
the reason was that they don't use the building until the
conditions are met?
MR. GORALSKI~That's fine with me.
MR. MACEWAN-To me, I interpret that CO, permanent, temporary or
otherwise, period.
MR. GORALSKI-Fine.
MR. SCHACHNER-Unless otherwise stated, I would agree that that's
what that, when you imposed that condition.
MR. BREWER-Not just this site plan, but any site plan.
MR. SCHACHNER-No, I'm speaking generically. If the condition is,
no Certificate of Occupancy until whatever, I'm speaking
- 34 -
--
(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
generically now, that unless the motion specifies permanent,
temporary, I think it would apply to any Certificate of Occupancy.
I don't know if that's what your motion says, because we don't have
it.
MR. RUEL-So the conditions of the last motion were predicated on a
CO. Is that correct?
MR. GORALSKI-I don't know. I'm not sure.
MR. RUEL-If it was, then this temporary CO you're talking about
would negate that original one.
MR. BREWER-No.
MR. PALING-And he's got to go back to the original motion.
MR. GORALSKI-We haven't issued anything yet. (Lost words)
temporary CO or a permanent CO. I will check the previous
resolution, unless you give me different directions.
MR. BREWER-No. I think when we say, before a CO, it means any CO.
-----
MR. GORALSKI-Okay.
MR. SCHACHNER-And I'm saying that, legally, I think that's correct,
unless it is specific mention of which type or a particular type,
it means any CO.
MR. PALING-Okay.
MR. MILLER-Mr. .Chairman, could I add one thing to this?
MR. PALING-Yes.
MR. MILLER-Well, two things. One is, Mr. Threw has been working on
the construction of the building to meet a June deadline with his
contract for Encore, and because of some of the weather and things,
the site work has been left until last, and I think if this
temporary CO cannot be issued, it's going to cause a breach of
contract, with his agreement with Encore, and I would request that
possibly allow the temporary CO to be issued for a month or
whatever, and then give him that month to complete that site work,
and then at the end of that one month period, review it and the
temporary CO would expire if the work's not done.
MR. MACEWAN-And in the mean time the warehouse is filled, and
there's nothing you can do.
MR. STARK-No. The temporary CO is revoked, that sounds fair.
MR. PALING-What does that do if the temporary CO is revoked?
MR. GORALSKI-If a temporary CO expires and no permanent CO is
issued, they couldn't occupy the building.
MR. PALING-They're out of business.
MR. MACEWAN-How difficult is that to enforce?
MR. SCHACHNER-It's a lot harder if a building is not already up.
MR. MACEWAN-That's what I thought. Thank you. I'm not in favor of
that.
MR. STARK-John, he's for the approval tonight.
passes tonight, he'll get a CO then, right?
I mean, if he
- 35 -
(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
MR. BREWER-Not unless all the conditions are met.
MR. STARK-He's in the middle of meeting them.
MR. BREWER-We made the conditions a year ago, didn't we?
MR. MACEWAN-Yes.
MR. BREWER-I don't want to hold it over his head, but can we go
next door and get the motion and find out what it is? It's
probably har~ to find.
MR. PALING-Wait a minute. Lets just discuss it a little bi~ more.
I would be inclined to go with the temporary CO route, for this
reason. I think that it's reasonable, and the weather has been
bad, in that he can comply with everything that's been said, and
lets face it, he's got a lot more after this to come. If he would
decide to, lets say, not use as right, or not comply with the CO
that's been pulled, then we would hit him with the book later on,
I would assume.
MR. GORALSKI-The only thing I would say is, regardless of what the
previous motion said, you have him here in front of you doi~g a
modification now. If the Board's feeling is that every tree has to
be planted, everything has to be paved, everything has to be
cleaned up, prior to the issuance of a CO, well then you can make
that motion tonight.
MR. PALING-Yes. That's our option.
MR. GORALSKI-If you want to see certain things done and certain
things.
MR. BREWER-How long is it going to take you to do all the work,
Bill?
MR. THREW-All the work and trees, except for those 15 that they
made the stipulation, has been done, and as soon as you give me the
temporary CO, the paving will be done in a couple of weeks. That's
as fast as I can get a paving contractor in there.
MR. BREWER-As far as the clean up.
conditions were? Are they met?
Do you know what those
MR. THREW-Yes. Each phase had to be cleaned up before I got a CO
on it, completely, nothing, none of the debris whatsoever.
MR. MACEWAN-So everything in Phase II is cleaned up?
MR. THREW-Is done. Phase III has not been touched because I've
been concentrating on Phase II, to get that building done.
MR. MACEWAN-So the only thing that you would be lacking to meet the
conditions of the previous approval would be to get the lot paved
before these people could move into the warehouse?
MR. BREWER-And those trees. I don't have a problem with that.
MR. MACEWAN-Right, is that what you're saying?
MR. THREW-Yes.
MR. MACEWAN-So you just need to pave the lot and plant 15 trees.
MR. THREW-Right.
MR. MACEWAN-That's doable by me.
MRS. LABOMBARD-Me, too.
- 36 -
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(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
MR. STARK-Why don't we listen to Mr. Miller's, give him until July
1st to do everything, and then if ,everything is met at that point,
John can issue a permanent CO. He's the one that said a month.
MR. PALING-That's plenty of time.
MRS. LABOMBARD-June 30th.
MR. MILLER-The reason I said that, he's been concentrating on the
building, and he just completed the building. As a matter of fact,
they were finishing the floors the other day, and then the concrete
slab. So now that he's got that completed, he could focus on the
site work.
MR. RUEL-Lets give him a 30 day temporary CO for site work.
MR. MACEWAN-I'd hate like heck to see him lose a customer.
MR. PALING-Yes.
MR. BREWER-A temporary CO to June 30th.
MR. PALING-We could go to June 30th with a motion, with th~five
conditions that we talked about originally.
MR. BREWER-Right, and then June 30th, if the work is not done,
then.
MR. PALING-There's no CO of any kind issued. Okay.
MR. SCHACHNER-Might I suggest that since this is a modification,
that the Board mention in your motion that, if this is the case,
that it does not feel this is a material modification that requires
any further public hearing or SEQRA review, if that's how you feel.
MR. PALING-Yes. I think so. Okay. You should make that part of
the motion.
MOTION TO APPROVE MODIFICATION TO SITE PLAN NO. 24-95 WILLIAM
THREW, Introduced by Roger Ruel who moved for its adoption,
seconded by Timothy Brewer:
To include size and location of Phase II building, peaked roof,
parking previously indicated as future will be included in Phase II
and will be sized to accommodate trailer parking as well as cars,
inlets and drywells added to collect runoff and additional screen
planting of 15 pines to be added along the east side of parking
area toward Big Bay Rd. to provide visual screening of the parking
area, with the following conditions: One, the gravel fire lane, as
installed, will be shown on the plan. Two, the water line and
hydrant to be located at the northwest corner of Phase II warehouse
and to be indicated on the plan. Three, indicate on the plan, and
to Planning Staff's satisfaction, where Phase II ends and Phase III
starts. Four, that the applicant will have to submit stormwater
discharge permit application. Five, that a temporary CO may be
issued to June 30th to complete the site work in Phase II. No
public hearing or SEQRA since it would have no significant effect.
Duly adopted this 30th day of May, 1996, by the following vote:
AYES: Mrs. LaBombard, Mr. Ruel, Mr. West, Mr. Brewer,
Mr. MacEwan, Mr. Stark, Mr. Paling
NOES: NONE
SITE PLAN NO. 22-96 TYPE II THE MICHAELS GROUP OWNER: HUDSON
POINTE ZONE: P. U.D. LOCATION: COMMUNITY RECREATION SITE -
- 37 -
(Queensbury Planning Board Meeting 5/30/96)
HUDSON POINTE BOULEVARD PROPOSAL IS TO CONSTRUCT A TENNIS COURT,
BASKETBALL COURT, SOFTBALL FIELD" TRAILS AND PARKING AREA FOR
HUDSON POINTE HOMEOWNERS. CROSS REFERENCE: P6-95 TAX MAP NO.
148-1-2.1 SECTION: 179-58
JIM MILLER, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT
DAVE MICHAELS, PRESENT
STAFF INPUT
Notes from Staff, Site Plan No. 22-96, The Michaels Group, Meeting
Date: May 30, 1996 "The applicant is proposing to construct
tennis courts, a basketball court, softball fields, trails and a
parking area for the Hudson pointe subdivision. Staff foresees no
negative impacts associated with this development and would
recommend approval of Site Plan No. 22-96 as long as all Rist Frost
comments are addressed to the Planning Board's satisfaction."
MR. GORALSKI-And the letter from Rist-Frost, dated May 24th, "We
have performed a review of the recreational area site plan for the
Hudson pointe P.U.D. and submit the following engineering comments:
A review of the previously submitted comments does not specifically
refer to a planned recreation area, however, it would be considered
as green area under existing regulations. The road drainage system
above the proposed site will not affect site runoff. The sight
distance on the access road to the open space institute parking
area should be checked for limitations due to existing vegetation.
We interpret the drawing that no clearing is required. The site
plan indicates no utility connections. Any proposed water and
electrical services should be shown. There are no specific
regulations for required parking for recreational areas.
Requirements should be checked for handicapped parking on the OSI
access area. The stormwater management report is acceptable.
Erosion details are noted and properly controlled. The site is
over five acres and stormwater construction general permit
requirements should be checked. Generally, post-construction
details are acceptable. Percolation tests are not specifically
referenced, although they are mentioned in the stormwater
management report. Notes should be added to the drawing. The site
plan appears to conform with the original planned unit development.
All previous comments have been addressed. Any future revisions
must be reviewed on a site specific basis by the Board. If you
have any questions, please feel free to call." Signed Bill
Levandowski.
MR. PALING-Okay, and there are no other letters or what not on
this. No. Okay.
MR. MILLER-Jim Miller, Landscape Architect.
MR. PALING-Okay. Have you seen the Rist-Frost comments?
MR. MILLER-Yes, I have.
MR. PALING-Okay. Do you want to comment on them?
MR. MILLER-Yes. Well, the first comment being green area, we have
no comment on that. The road drainage, it will not affect the
site. It's a Town road, with wing swales, so there's no drainage
coming on to the site. The site distance, actually the next two,
the site distance and the clearing I addressed together. This
drawing I hung up is actually the master plan drawing, and it shows
the site plan that's before you, this portion. This also shows the
future day care center. I thought you might be interested in
seeing how those two tie together, but there is some clearing, and
because the loop road is being built right now, and they're
clearing in this area here. This was the borrow pit which extended
back across the Hudson Pointe Boulevard, and it was wooded. The
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woods came out across the top of the borrow pit in this area, but
what happens, the way the road is designed in this area to meet the
grades for the lots, they're cutting the road right here down to
about three feet. So in doing that, they're ending up clearing
some of the trees in that area. Since they cut the road down three
feet, for us to have our parking access, we've got to cut the
parking lot down. So there will be some trees removed in the area
of the OSI parking area. So there is minimal clearing in there,
and also because of that clearing and grading, that will improve
that site distance for these driveways, which I think will resolve
that concern. There are no utility connections. Any utility
connections will be at a later phase with the day care center. The
handicapped parking, the management plan for the Open Space
Institute trail system just requires a five car gravel parking lot,
which we've shown, and there was no requirements for handicapped
access, and, you know, it's not designated. It could certainly be
used for handicapped. One of the reasons I would question that is
that, if you take that trail and go back and start down the bluffs,
there's about a 15 to 20%- gravel road that goes down into the
wetlands into that Open Space Institute area. So I don't know that
it's really suitable for handicapped access, but I think, you know,
it will be accessible. The trails will be at grade. It's a
crushed stone parking area, and we just haven't designated anything
for that. There is handicapped parking provided for in the lot for
the recreation facility. In the stormwater management report,
since it was a borrow pit, everything drained into it, so we
essentially graded the site so that it terraces down. The parking
area and the day care center are at the higher elevations. The
tennis court, basketball court is going to be like at a lower
plateau, and the softball fields would be at a lower level, and
then we've kept the area outside of the softball field as low
areas, and the stormwater from the parking area would discharge
into there and will be contained and will infiltrate. The same,
swales will be provided around the tennis courts. The future day
care center, we envision that, there's not a tremendous amount of
paved area. There'd probably be some drywells in there to handle
the stormwater runoff, or, if need be, they could drain this lower
area so the stormwater shouldn't be an issue. The site is
contained because of the shape of it. So erosion control is really
not a problem. Again, the percolation test, we included some perc
test information for the stormwater in the stormwater management
report, and we'll also add that to the plan as required.
MR. PALING-Have you seen those perc tests, John?
MR. GORALSKI-They're in the stormwater management report.
MR. PALING-Okay.
MR. STARK-Thirty to sixty seconds it is, Bob, excessively high. In
the stormwater plan, it says excessively high rates.
MR. PALING-EXcessively high.
MR. MILLER-It's all gravel. As a matter of fact, I think in some
of the septic systems, they had to modify the soil to reduce the
infiltration, and the last comment we have no comment on. One of
the requests earlier that Staff made dealt with the connection
points to the driveways, and we modified the plan earlier (lost
words) sand, the day care center was in this area, just combined
parking for everything, and we've since made a decision to separate
them, but one of the concerns was locating driveway accesses across
from lots. If you can see, the north side of us are single family
lots. Obviously, the Open Space Institute's only a 60 foot wide
right-of-way, and that's a low impact, but we've located our access
driveway where it connects to one of the community green spaces,
which is also a trail system that runs throughout the project, so
that this rec area can be accessed by the trail system and also the
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driveway will come out onto that green space. So if somebody's
playing softball over here at night and half a dozen cars over
there, even, they won't be shining lights right into people's
windows, and we did the same thing with the day care center. The
day care center is really going to be more of a drop off kind of a
circulation than a parking condition. So we provided a one way in
and out loop. In here it's all lots, but what we've done is we've
designed this driveway to come out on a lot line here. That area
could be mounded and planted. The landscaping for the property,
this is the old Sherman Island Road, here, which is now community
green space, and this trail also connects through and connects back
to the housing lot. So any of the housing sites can access this
area. Everything to the north side .of this trail is the future day
care center. That's the dividing line that you see on your plan.
What we propose for landscaping, this is all wide open now.
There's existing woods on this lot here, and existing woods from
the top of the borrow pit area along here which would remain. This
is the nature preserve area. Even though some of that's cleared,
it's going to not be maintained. That's going to revert back.
What we've done is we've indicated some berming and some planting
of pines and shade trees along the road to provide some separation
from this active recreation from the residential lots, and also
these will be about four or five feet below the grade of the r~ad.
So we're trying to provide some buffer and leave some openings for
some visibility in there also. This trail system is really like
you see it defined through here, and, you know, proposing a row of
maple trees along there to provide some screening and buffering
around the parking area, and the other landscaping that's proposed
is some planting in and around the different activities to sort of
provide some separation between these areas, in addition to trying
to create, down at the softball field, have a bench area to maybe
have an area that's treed with some picnic tables or something.
The other thing that works out nicely with this plan is the way
this bank wraps around the ballfield, this actually ends up being
a nice spectator area over looking the field.
MR. PALING-Okay, and you're satisfied with that site distance now,
that there are no blind spots?
MR. MILLER-Well, I think, right now, this is heavily treed in here,
and I think when they reach the final grades, and Paul Naylor
requires the clearing in the right-of-way, the full 50 foot
clearing, and then when we grade our accesses in, I think that will
satisfy that concern.
MR. PALING-It's hard to visualize with re-visiting, but I'm sure
you're right. Okay. Any questions?
MR. RUEL-Yes. How come the Beautification Committee doesn't get
involved in this?
MR. GORALSKI-The Beautification Committee looks at our agenda and
picks what things they want to look at.
MR. MILLER-Yes. I was there for the other project. I asked them
why this wasn't on. I thought they'd like this one.
MR. PALING-I would think so.
MR. RUEL-They could learn something.
MR. PALING-Okay. This is Type II. We have a public hearing
tonight. So, at this point, why don't we open the public hearing.
Does anyone care to comment on this?
PUBLIC HEARING OPENED
ROLAND AKINS
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MR. AKINS-I'm Roland Akins. I live on the Corinth Road. The only
thing I have one question on is, I received a notice of public
hearing, and on here, it's either a mistake or misleading. I don't
know what it is. It lists parking areas for Hudson pointe
Homeowners. Now, one of those parking lots is going to be for the
public, right?
MR. PALING-Excuse me, sir. Would you please address the question
to the Board.
MR. AKINS-One of those parking areas is going to be for the public,
the way I understood it in the past, and the application is.
MR. GORALSKI-That's correct. There is a parking area for the
nature trails. That's definitely public parking.
MR. AKINS-So in other words the application states that the parking
areas are for the homeowners, and that should be.
MR. GORALSKI-The parking area for the Open Space Institute is a
public parking area.
MR. AKINS-Okay. That's the only question I had.
..----
MR. PALING-Okay. Has it been answered to your satisfaction?
MR. AKINS-Yes. That's the way I understood it to be, for the
public, that one parking area.
MR. PALING-Okay. Thank you. Anyone else care to comment?
MR. RUEL-Does that have to be designated on a plan?
MR. GORALSKI-It's designated on the P.U.D. agreement and the
management plan for the Open Space nature preserve. If you'd like,
you could have the applicant also add that now as a note on his
plan.
MR. RUEL-Yes; That's what I was thinking.
MR. GORALSKI-That the Open Space Institute nature preserve parking
area is open to the public, but that's a requirement P.U.D.
MR. MILLER-Yes. That was a public access parking lot.
MR. PALING-Okay. If there are no other comments, we'll close the
public hearing.
PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED
MR. PALING-All right. Anyone want to comment or question, or we
can go right to a motion?
MR. STARK-I have a comment.
MR. PALING-Okay. George?
MR. STARK-Mr. Miller, this is probably one of the nicest plans
that's ever come in front of the Board.
MR. PALING-Yes, it's very nice.
MR. STARK-We were down there. We thought it was, you know, for my
own information, is this building faster than you anticipated?
Maybe Mr. Michaels I should ask that.
MR. MILLER-Dave Michaels.
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MR. MICHAELS-Yes. We're, right now, very much ahead of schedule.
We've got five lots in the first phase that don't have any activity
on them, that aren't sold yet. We've got quite a bit of interest
on them. We have a model under way. We'll wait on that until the
next phase, and the development work, we're actually ahead of
schedule. We ended up getting a late start because of all the
weather that we've experienced, but we anticipate paving the 10th,
about 10 days from now we plan on paving. So we're moving right
along, I would say, ahead of schedule.
MR. MACEWAN-When will you be sodding over the remaining portions of
Sherman Island Road?
MR. MICHAELS-My name is Dave Michaels, and I'm President of the
Michaels Group.
MR. PALING-Go ahead, Craig.
MR. MACEWAN-My question was just, when do you plan on sodding over
and seeding over the remaining abandoned portion of Sherman Island
Road?
MR. MICHAELS-Well, part of the development plan, once they..--get
paved, the next thing will be to grade up the road shoulders, and
then we have top soil already spread along the road. Right now
we've kept it to the side, and then we'll be done utilizing that as
an access road. It's been used as an access road to aid
construction right now, and then I would say within 30 days after
that we'll be grading that up and seeding it, and where that is,
being all topsoil and so shaded, you know, it should grow pretty
well, even though we're planting it in the summer.
MR. MACEWAN-It is at the other end. It looks real nice.
MR. MICHAELS-Yes. We usually like to try to plant, you know, maybe
up to, we usually use the rule of thumb about June 15th as the cut
off and then we try to get back in there the middle of August,
because it seems like if you try to seed areas that are difficult
to water and maintain, the time in the middle, you know, it's tough
to get any growth.
MR. PALING-Okay. Any other questions, comments? All right. We'll
entertain a motion.
MOTION TO APPROVE SITE PLAN NO. 22-96 THE MICHAELS GROUP,
Introduced by Roger Ruel who moved for its adoption, seconded by
Catherine LaBombard:
To construct a tennis court, basketball court, softball field,
trails and parking area, with the condition that, One, percolation
test notes be added to the drawing. Two, to add a note to
designate parking area for OSI, which is public parking.
Duly adopted this 30th day of May, 1996, by the following vote:
AYES: Mr. MacEwan, Mr. Stark, Mrs. LaBombard, Mr. Ruel,
Mr. West, Mr. Paling
NOES: NONE
ABSENT: Mr. Brewer
MR. PALING-John, did I understand you to say we're probably going
to have three meetings this coming month?
MR. GORALSKI-Based on the preliminary review of the applications,
yes. I believe there will have to be an extra meeting. If you'd
like to discuss when you'd like to schedule that third meeting.
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MR. PALING-All right. Then we're forewarned that meetings, then,
will be June 11, 18 and 25, probably.
MR. GORALSKI-Well, June 18 and 25, probably. The third one, would
you like to do it on the Thursday.
MR. STARK-Tim, what about 18th, 20th, and 25th?
MR. GORALSKI-How about the 20th?
MR. PALING-How's the 20th suit everybody?
MR. STARK-18th, 20th, 25th.
MR. MACEWAN-That's fine.
MR. PALING-Okay. I thought we indicated the 11th to one of the
applicants? That's why I did that.
MR. GORALSKI-No.
MR. PALING-All right, then 18, 20 and 25, and that would leave site
visits staying on June 13th at 4 p.m. No minutes to approve
tonight. Meeting adjourned.
On motion meeting was adjourned.
RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED,
Robert Paling, Chairman
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