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1997-11-24 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING NOVEMBER 24, 1997 4:30 P.M. MTG# 54 RES# 435-436 BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT SUPERVISOR FRED CHAMPAGNE COUNCILMAN BETTY MONAHAN COUNCILMAN THEODORE TURNER BOARD MEMBERS ABSENT COUNCILMAN CONNIE GOEDERT COUNCILMAN CAROL PULVER TOWN COUNSEL MARK SCHACHNER TOWN OFFICIALS HIGHWAY SUPERINTENDENT, P AUL NAYLOR SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Opened meeting. RESOLUTION ENTERING EXECUTIVE SESSION RESOLUTION NO. 435, 97 INTRODUCED BY: MRS. BETTY MONAHAN WHO MOVED FOR ITS ADOPTION SECONDED BY: MR. THEODORE TURNER RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby adjourns from Regular Session and moves into Executive Session to discuss insurance contractual services proposal from companies. Duly adopted this 24th day of November, 1997, by the following vote: AYES: Mrs. Monahan, Mr. Turner, Mr. Champagne NOES: Mrs. Goedert, Mrs. Pulver ABSENT:None RESOLUTION ADJOURNING EXECUTIVE SESSION RESOLUTION NO. 436, 97 INTRODUCED BY: MR. THEODORE TURNER WHO MOVED FOR ITS ADOPTION SECONDED BY: MRS. BETTY MONAHAN RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby adjourns from Executive Session and moves back into Regular Session. Duly adopted this 24th day of November, 1997, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Turner, Mrs. Monahan, Mr. Champagne NOES: Mrs. Goedert, Mrs. Pulver ABSENT:None DISCUSSION BIRDSALL ROAD SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Good evening ladies and gentlemen. This is really an extension from a previously held meeting that we started at four thirty over in the Supervisor's Conference Room. I would like to move right into the Informational Meeting here this evening regarding Birdsall Road. The purpose of this meeting is for this board, and unfortunately we have Connie and Carol who are both absent this evening, for this board to get some insights, have a clear understanding of at least of what the neighborhood is saying regarding Birdsall Road. I think you all are aware that we had received some requests for the Town to take over this road as a Town road that was evidently a part of the roads that came over to the Town back in 1963. There are some questions, I think in everyone's mind at least from the Supervisor's position as to how best we can treat the situation and make it right for the neighbors. That's what we're here for and at this point I'd like to open it up for unless counsel you have anything more to add to that, we will open it up for those of you who care to speak and you are on record. I'd ask you to come to the microphone please and give us your name. We will use this as some further information and data that perhaps some decisions could be made along the way. We're not looking for a decision here this evening, but rather input from you folks to kind of bring us as board members up to speed and kind of hear back from you as to what your position and how you feel about the next move on the part of the Town on Birdsall Road. Anyone here care to enter into this and voice an opinion? JOHN WHALEN-I own some land on Birdsall Road. I'd like a little insight or information on what happened it 1963 on how the Town acquired Birdsall Road or what is Birdsall Road. Some of it's a right -a- way, some of it's obviously a Town road. I would like some information on what the Town acquired in 1963, how they acquired it, and I'd like to see some maps. Birdsall Road who knows what, what is really Birdsall Road, what's a path, what's a trail, what's a right-a-way. I'd like to see something definite on it since this is all new to me. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Sure. Do you want to jump on that one? TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-The Highway Superintendent can join in anytime he wants. Essentially as I understand it in 1963 the Town adopted a whole inventory if you will of Town roads. I think the principal purpose for doing this back in 1963 was actually to maximize the amount of miles that we said we we're maintaining for the purpose of getting State and Federal grant monies for road upkeep, maintenance, and construction. The goal at that time would have been to be as inclusive as possible and state that as many things as possible were Town roads, correct me in I'm wrong Paul. The records do seem to indicate that at that time one of the roads listed on the inventory and there are literally dozens, I don't know the exact number I don't know if you do, but there are literally dozens, one of the roads listed on the inventory was Birdsall Road. With each road that was listed on the inventory was a certain distance in other words how much of that road, I mean linear distance, how much of that road was adopted by the Town as a portion of the town highway or town road inventory. The distance that is listed in that 1963 approval for Birdsall Road as a town road greatly exceeds the distance that I think most people today think of as the town road portion. It seems to us that most people today think of the town road portion as extending the paved portion up to the bike trail... .or end, or beginning or whatever you want to call it. Is that generally true that is what generally most people think of the town road portion being I assume I'm seeing most people nodding yes. The inventory document does seem to indicate, however, that a much greater distance was adopted as a town road and in fact, correct me if I'm wrong Board or Highway Superintendent. I don't know think this is anything the Town government came up with this realization that there was a larger number amount of distance. But, actually one of the Birdsall Road residents himself has pointed this out to the Town in what I'm going to characterize as a campaign to convince the Town that a Town should maintain the entire length of Birdsall Road all the way past Glen Lake and up into the hill, what I call the hill there as a town highway that's my summary of the situation. By the way, I'm Mark Schachner the Town's Counsel and I was not a Town's Counsel in 1963. SUPERVISOR CHAMP AGNE-I would have to also concur with that, that's my understanding. At the time that road was brought onto as a town highway and I can't tell you reasons for not upgrading or maintaining the road back in 1963 and on forward to 1997, I have no idea why that was not brought on and maintained by the Town. However, with that on record as Mr. Schachner had indicated its my opinion that there is some obligation and certainly some liability if the Town owns that road and its a road by use is that correct Paul? Then if it is a road by use then we certainly do have an obligation over and beyond what we're doing at this point in time. TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-Fred, if I could. Let me just do what lawyers do best let me muddy the water in one respect. That is that the only thing that we referenced so far is this adoption in 1963 of the town road inventory. There have been other steps taken since then that would seem to indicate that in fact Birdsall Road is not a Town road. The best examples of those I will give is that many many residents along Birdsall Road including, I'm sure many of you all have had to obtain variances to get building permits on Birdsall Road because it has not been considered to be a town road in the past. Again, I'm seeing heads nodding and even in the time I have been Town Counsel I know there have been people who had wanted building permits to build on Birdsall Road who have therefore and because Birdsall Road has not been considered a town road past the paved area at the bike trail they have been required to get variances from a New York State Town Law provision that requires access on to a public road. I don't want to make this out to be a black and white issue, I think one of the reasons the Town has asked to have this meeting is because we have at least one Birdsall Road resident who adamently maintaining that it is clearly a town road based on the actions of 1963 and should be treated as such. We have been contacted at least as far as I know we have been contacted by at least one other resident who adamently maintains that as I understand that it is not a town road and that it should not be treated as such. The main reason to have this meeting as I understand it the Town Board wanted to gain public input as to what you all think not so much as to whether it is or isn't, but as to what your goal or desires are as to what you want the town to do or not do by way of maintenance is that a fair summary? SUPERVISOR CHAMP AGNE- That's basically why we're here. Anyone else care to join in? We can almost go by show of hands those in favor of town road those in favor of private road? BILL MERRITT-Our family has owned property on Birdsall Road since 1960. Birdsall Road has changed many many times. If the Town adopted Birdsall Road in 1963 they abandoned Birdsall Road when they allowed houses to be built on the road that they adopted. If it is a road by use the path that crosses our property now it is a road by use, it is a road of use by trespass and vandalism. And as such, I would ask the Town Board if in the eventuality the Town Board decides to maintain what they consider to be Birdsall Road that they clearly show us on a map what portion our land will be maintained as Birdsall Road and give us input so that we can determine whether that is the most advantageous place for us as it crosses our property. There is no sense splitting a persons piece of property if the road can as easily go along the back edge. Therefore, please if in the eventuality you determine that you are going to maintain it that you show us where this road is going to be so that perhaps at the same cost it can be placed in the most advantageous position for all of us common sense would dictate that. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Are you saying that right now it bisects your property? MR. MERRITT-Yes, ma'am. TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-Can I just ask at least for my own enlightenment can you help me out I'm not sure I'm following you as to what you mean by if the Town adopted it now it's been a road of trespass and vandalism can you help me out on that a little? MR. MERRITT -We tried over the years at one time Birdsall Road and our back door were at the same elevation. Today we've had to build two retaining walls because offill that was brought in, in the winter months unbenost to us found out later. . . . TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-Are you saying Birdsall Road the elevation has increased? MR. MERRITT -Yes. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-By the Town? MR. MERRITT-No, I think by other residents. I think I don't even know if they live there anymore. TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-In one particular area? MR. MERRITT-Yes, where it goes behind Gwinup's and the Merritt's property. Additionally that road has been moved we attempted at one time to stake it off and our stake's were torn down. We contacted the Warren County Sheriff several times to make them aware of this. We're talking at a time when I was much younger in the sixties and seventies so some of these acts were done by my father primarily. It's a clouded issue, but it makes no sense to place the road so that it divides our property when it could easily be moved to the extremity of our property at, on ones disadvantage. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I was going to say if that happened it wouldn't cut off anybody from using a new location. TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-Mr. Merritt, I assume as far as you are aware anyway that when you talk about the road having been moved over the years, I think what you are telling the Town is that in fact the actual passage way has not always been in the same place? MR. MERRITT -Exactly, that's true. No it has not.... TOWN COUSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-And I assume as far as you know its not been any town personnel doing it I assume it's been people that live there? MR. MERRITT -Yeah. TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-It is interesting because it does raise I think as Mr. Merritt indicates it raises some issue as to whether in fact there is still a town road at all. There may have been at least as a practical matter some type of abandonment. Again, I think the picture is not really a black white picture we're gaining valuable information with some of this stuff. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-That particular location if! may, Paul and a couple of us did ride up through there. Is he speaking of where the road would be moved to that upper area there? Is that the one where the garage itself conceivable could be blocking that? That may be a problem with the garage on the corner there where the road would come back down to intersect, isn't there a garage located right there? HIGHWAY SUPERINTENDENT, PAUL NAYLOR-On the right hand side..... But as it is of now if we follow that route we can't plow it because there is lawn there and everything else that's why we need to know what we're going to do. TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-Paul, if you follow the current route you couldn't plow it? HIGHWAY SUPERINTEDENT, MR. NAYLOR-If I follow the current route. TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-Because oflack of width? HIGHWAY SUPERINTENDET, MR. NA YLOR- The width. There was a natural path back in there to the last house. TOUWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-That is too narrow for you to plow? HIGHWAY SUPERINTENDENT, MR. NAYLOR-It's kind of tight in a couple spots but we could probably plow with one of our little pickups. That's why we had stated early looking into it so we could cut some trees that's when we found we had a few problems that's why we're here tonight to try to iron those out. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-For those of you who haven't spoken at this point, I guess from where I sit is it in everyone's best interest to leave the road as it is? Are most of you saying..... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I'm not sure if Merritt's want it left where it is. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I understand that. I'm trying to go, you know at this stage until we can legally put it in some kind of a legal road going from A to B it's almost saying to our Highway Superintendent there are some obligations on both sides here as I perceive it and I think we're trying to work our way through that. The neighborhood those neighbors that are here tonight on that road I guess are saying to us leave it as it is and you do your own plowing. We got to make some decisions because we already have a foot of snow out there. We're saying what do we do next, heads we do it, tails we don't. I don't think that's quite the way we want to operate government and that's what we're trying to come up with is a gentlemen's agreement at least temporarily until such time we know what are legal ramifications are. Yes, sir..... STEVE MILLER-Property owner. Actually I own a house in between Birdsall Road and Marley Way. I would just like to say for the record that I am in support of maintaining the road in the winter months, I think it is a very good idea. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-For the Town to maintain the road in the winter months? MR. MILLER-Yes, very much so. It's very hard to get in and out. I am not equipped to remove snow to get to my house in and out during the winter months. I would greatly appreciate it. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Good point. COUNCILMAN TURNER-How far in do you live? MR. MILLER-I am the gray house. My driveway is actually on Marley Way the small road off Birdsall Road right before the bike path. It's quite a ways to get to a maintained road at this time. COUNCILMAN TURNER-Are you up on the hill? MR. MILLER-Not that far. COUNCILMAN TURNER-I'm trying to think where you are. MR. MILLER-My access is from Marley Way. TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-Which is that first right turn coming down Birdsall Road. MR. MILLLER-Given that, you know if there was something clear there I could park in my front yard to gain access. Right now if the weather got too bad I don't know if I could get in and out. COUNCILMAN TURNER-There is a house that goes off in there up around on a little hill that's not your house? You go in Birdsall Road and proceed in a little ways and you go I think to where Mr. Beadleston house is then there is a road that goes up and around is there a house up there or does that come in from the other way? UNKNOWN-He takes the first right off Birdsall Road as you come in he doesn't even come on Birdsall Road. COUNCILMAN TURNER-Okay. MR. MILLER-But, I have frontage on Birdsall Road. If either one are both maintained it would at least give me some avenue to get in and out. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Did you have to get a variance when you put your house on because you weren't on a Town road? MR. MILLER-I had to get variances, yes, for the reason of not being on a Town road I'm not sure I would have to check the records on that. TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-Do you know when you were in the variances process roughly, like what year? MR. MILLER-A year and a half ago I started. TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-I could pretty much guarantee that was one of your variances. I mean I don't know you or your specific property, but.... MR. MILLER-I had two. TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHAHCNER-One of them would have been a variance from New York State Town Law Section 280-A, requiring public road frontage is my guess, I don't remember your application. MR. MILLER-No, that was not one ofthern. That specific language was never brought up. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-They probably didn't do it state the variance that way. TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-ZBA did a lot of those. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yeah, but I mean sometimes they just put not on a Town road they don't write the law they make it much more simple. TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-That could be. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you. Anyone else? BILL NIKAS, REPRESENTING THE MERRITT F AMIL Y-I guess today, I'm on a fact finding mission as well in order to properly advise thern. I like the Town Superintendent to plow my driveway too, but as we know private roads can't be subject of Town highway equipment. I have a couple of questions that hopefully you can answer for us. Is this road still on the Town inventory for State and Federal Aid purposes? TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-Yes, as far as we know it is. MR. NIKAS-Has the Town since this resolution in 1963 ever done anything with respect to this road plow it, improve it, exercise any rights whatsoever with respect to this road? HIGHWAY SUPERINTENDENT, MR. NAYLOR-No. Since eighty two, yes we haven't, I don't know before me. TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-We know for fifteen years we have not. HIGHWAY SUPERINTENDENT, MR. NAYLOR-Sixteen years to be exact. UNKNOWN-Since 1974 you haven't. MR. NIKAS-Other than this resolution that you refer to is there any other basis for the Town to claim Birdsall Road as a public road? Is there a deed, any document whatsoever, than this resolution? TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-Not that we're aware of. Again, Bill I hope this is clear the Town is not necessarily adamently claiming that we have to have this treated as a Town road that's one of the reasons for this meeting. MR. NIKAS-I absolutely understand that. I understand this is a fact finding mission on both sides. For our clients to get a proper opinion as you'll be giving we need to know what the history here is. Mr. Champagne you indicated there might be an obligation on the part of the Town. From the purely political viewpoint as to whether one would support plowing or not how do you view your obligation as a Town Supervisor towards the members of Birdsall Road. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Obviously if in the final analysis this road can be established that there is a non-abandonment, let's call it a non-abandonment. If it is on the inventory as of 1963 as my position might dictate I guess I would sense some obligation there. MR. NIKAS-But, if it's shown there hasn't been any use since 1982..... TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-I think the question sort of bags the real question. I think the answer is we don't know. It depends on what the legal status of the road is. SUPERVISOR CHAMP AGNE- That is something that we're trying to achieve here tonight obviously. Yes, SIr... . LOUIS COOLEY-I live on Birdsall Road Extension. That's what I want to verify if this tonight is on Birdsall Road or Birdsall Road Extension, that's where we're all frorn. Birdsall Road, I've been up there and living for twenty-five years and I've been up there for fifty during the summer, but I live for twenty- five. .. Birdsall Road is beautiful you couldn't ask for it any better. But, the extension which leads to macadam and then goes in around the lake that has never had any care, any maintenance of any kind. There are twenty-two people that own cottages and houses up there. Roughly twelve people live there year round the rest come weekends and there are six that never show up at all during the winter. As far as the road being changed and changed, and changed that road if it hadn't been changed some of these people wouldn't of had cottages on the lake because the railroad track used to run along the shore of the lake. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Is that right. MR. COOLEY-Now, I'm eighty years old I know what I'm talking about. If they hadn't changed the road some place or taken the railroad track out these cottages wouldn't of been built there to start with. That railroad used to come right up past the corner of my house and I was the first one to build up there that was fifty years ago. That's all I got to say that all these complaining about the road being changed it was changed, for the better of the people. Thank you. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you. Anyone else? MR. WHALEN-I have a bit of a problem with the Town acquiring a road by use. I'm used to the road where it goes through my property is just a little dirt path. It's been there a long time and on the maps it shows it as a the right -a-way. I certainly have no problem with the use of it, but I do have a problem with the idea that if the Town decides to take it over as a road it can do pretty much whatever they want to the road on people's private property. Now on my deeds nothing shows that its ever been given to the Town it's always been private with a right-a-way. I certainly have a problem with the idea of it being plowed and trees being cut down, the road being shifted to where its best to plow for. In my opinion to deed a road over to the Town requires the owner to deed it over and it requires the Town to accept it, there has to be maps and everything done quite legally. TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-Just so you know there is a distinction legally there are two types of municipal roads called roads by dedication and roads by use. Just so you know there is a different category called roads by use. I'm not saying this is good or bad and you certainly are entitled to your own opinion, but I'm just telling you as a matter of law there are two different types. MR. WHALEN-I do have a problem with the Town deciding it owns a road without any definition the idea that it could be moved out of it its historical place. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Maybe you should explain how a road gets to be a road by use that might be helpful I think. TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-The title sort of indicates how the road gets to be a road by use. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I think there is some confusion. HIGHWAY SUPERINTENDENT, MR. NAYLOR-Maybe I can answer that. What you got to realize sir, back in 1963 the State of New York and the Federal Government said if you give me all your roads, up until that point the Town had no idea how many miles of road it had if they had ten or ten thousand we'll give you money. Now everybody knows in the eighties they took it away in the nineties there is no money there is Chips that's the only program there is for your highways and you got to match it. A Town Board just like this told their Highway Superintendent go out and measure every mile of road in the Town so the more money we make, probably the most illegal act that ever was done. The Town Board took a hundred and fifty miles of road in one night and passed a resolution. The only way you can give up a road that's taken by resolution is by resolution so this resolution is still on the books. The only way we can wipe Birdsall out is they would have to, but then whoever wants it could start an action, here we are tonight hoping this doesn't happen that's what it all boils down too. That road by use is where the public cut across there neighbor and then their neighbor cuts across there and everyone used to live in a neighborhood where nobody cared what you did and what you didn't do. Those days aren't here anymore. It's my turf, your turf, and stay off of mine that's what it boils down to. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-This activity that we're going through certainly is not one that was brought about by the Town or the Town Board. It was a petition that we received in order for the Town to take over the road and maintain it. You need to know that at least that's my understanding unless I'm incorrect on this. TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-That's absolutely correct. I tried to point out at the beginning and maybe I wasn't clear about this. This whole issue arose because a particular Birdsall Road resident whom I assumed would be here tonight and would speak tonight, I don't know the gentlemen maybe he. . . . . . UNKNOWN-Which is correct. If you want I can go up and address.... TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-Are you Mr. Doherty? MR. DOHERTY-Yes. TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-Not a particular this particular Birdsall Road resident has sent a series ofletters to the Town seeking Town embracing, if you will of the notion that this is a town road and the Town should maintain it as such. I don't have to speak for him because he is here on his own behalf. But, all Mr. Champagne was saying sir that this was not an issue that the Town brought up but, in fact the gentlemen who brought it up is now here to speak on his own behalf. DAN DOHERTY-I think you are all aware of my position on this that being that I want the Town to plow the road. Initially we had to go through some variance, I believe Mr. Turner you were Chairman at that time. COUNCILMAN TURNER-Yes. MR. DOHERTY- This specific issue was addressed in one of the many hearings before the ZBA, I believe it was. The documents were produced and there was a question as to whether it extended beyond my property line. The fellow from the Warren County Map Department wasn't in, but regardless this has been around at least for two years or whenever I was before the Zoning Board of Appeals. I think some of the residents are confused and I don't know why. I photocopied a letter Mr. Naylor's letter of September 9th, distributed them the best I could threw them in some mailboxes and basically, Dear Resident from now on the Town is going to be plowing the road. Doesn't say anything about paving, doesn't say anything about moving the road. It's the same road that's been there for two years I don't understand the difference. Right now there are a few kind individuals that do the plowing in their own pickup trucks. I don't understand why somebody wouldn't want the Town to come in and just plow the road. That's what started this whole campaign and that's what brings me here today. My position stays the same and from the standpoint it's the same road hasn't moved in two years since I've been up there and what difference does it make. I would much rather seen the Town come in plow it, salt it, then having to have the private residents do it. COUNCILMAN TURNER-Mr. Doherty the private residents only plow it don't they? MR. DOHERTY-I'm sorry sir? COUNCILMAN TURNER-They only plow the road? MR. DOHERTY-Right. COUNCILMAN TURNER-They don't salt it and sand it? MR. DOHERTY-No, and that's where the problem comes in. You get a couple of freezing thaws the road becomes real slick and from a standpoint of access from a car it is very difficult to access and god forbid if an ambulance or an emergency vehicle had to get down there I don't know if they could. ANITIA FREJIBEORG-I live at the end of Birdsall Road. I would just add to this what Dan said here that the road sometimes so bad so I can't get my garbage delivered they won't come with the trucks to pick it up because they consider the road to be dangerous. I would be very happy if the Town of Queensbury would help us out. HIGHWAY SUPERINTENDENT, MR. NAYLOR-You may add that road stops about a hundred feet short of the turn around. We may need an easement or whatever we can get if that's going to be the way we plow it for a turn around at the end. If the folks at the end are here. . . . . . SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Without any improvements without any blacktop Paul is that reasonable to consider plowing as it is right now? HIGHWAY SUPERINTENDENT, MR. NAYLOR-Until we can do better. There are trees in there that have to come down so we can get a snow plow through there. RESIDENTS-No. KATHY GWINUP- W e have property over in there and have been in there for thirty years. I realize that this is going to be advantageous to a lot of people in this gathering here tonight, but there are going to be a lot of us that are going to adversely affected by this. If you've been in there on that road you know where the road starts to go down and level off near the garage that was mentioned earlier. There are three of us on that left side down that hill that if a plow were to go in there how much of our property is going to be ruined by the snow that's going to be thrown over the banks onto our steps? The rocks that are going to be going down into our camps what amount of property do we have to give up and do we have to sacrifice for the expense of others to get in and out of there? I know we don't live there in the winter time, but it is going to do a lot of damage to some of our properties. When you start talking about cutting trees down and doing those kinds of things and moving this and that then I think it has to be agreed upon all that's in question. Thank you. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Anyone else? STEVE MILLER-I would just like to add my house is in between Birdsall and Marley Way. Again, if one or both were plowed I would have access. I would just like to say that I'm still employed and I have to go to work everyday. I imagine some other people who are not year round residents and who don't work don't have to worry about going to work everyday sometimes I work on weekends so that's also a factor. It would just be very good for me to be able to continue employment uninterrupted during the winter months. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-This other road give me the name of that road, please. MR. MILLER-Marley Way. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I believe that's private Fred. MR. MILLER-That's a private right-a-way. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-That is private we can't touch that. MR. MILLER-I just wanted to give you a reference point to where my house is. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Understand. DON BEADLESTON-I've lived on Birdsall Road since 1974. I asked the Town many many times if they could plow Birdsall Road they told me it was a private road they couldn't touch it. I've spent thousand of dollars on plows and trucks I had no problem getting in and out to work, I'd like to leave it just the way it IS. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Where is your residence? MR. BEADLESTON-I'm right on Birdsall Road. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-How far in are you? MR. BEADLESTON-A long ways in. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-All right, I guess that was my question. MR. BEADLESTON-In fact, we were the second family to live there year round. We've had a lot of snow, but we've been able to get out. Now all of a sudden it is a issue why is it an issue. If they are so concern let them buy a plow. UNKNOWN-Why don't you got one Don? UNKNOWN-Yes, indeed why don't you plow them out? MR. BEADLESTON-Because I snow blow the road now. Or I'd like to be reimbursed for my plow. UNKNOWN-Or say here is a dollar for gas they won't even say thank you. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Wait a minute we want to keep this civil here let's not get carried away. One at a time at the mic, please. MR. BEADLESTON-Why is it such an issue now? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Okay, thank you. Others? UNKNOWN-Everybody is indicating, you know I've been here since 1970 or whatever it is. This has been on the books since 1963 and had somebody done an adequate title search and investigation they would of seen it from 1963 on. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Anyone else? ELIZABETH MERRITT-We bought the property on Birdsall Road in 1960. At that time the right-a-way went down by my pump house right across the beach lot that they call now right in the middle of Doherty's camp is where it was at one time. Through the years we have tried to get it moved. At one time we had it all staked up and they came in the night and pulled the stakes up. Now we do not have fifty feet to give to the Town cause if we give it we don't have anything. That's my case leave the road alone. Everybody in there knew it was a private road and they had to plow themselves out and that's the way they've been doing it and let it continue. Thank you. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you. TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-I think that the fact we're sitting here on November 24th, Paul what are you saying get a consensus as to what we should do, right? I think it would be appropriate to give the Highway Superintendent some sort of direction in light of the fact that winter appears to have begun. One of the ideas that I think I heard Paul was the notion at least for the interim period you could plow without having to take trees do any damage with one of your smaller vehicles. HIGHWAY SUPERINTENDENT, PAUL NA YLOR- We would have to assign from somewhere else. TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-Which would be a hassle for the short term, but do-able. I guess I think it is appropriate for the board perhaps to solicit opinion as to anybody would have any valiant objection with that. As I understand it what the Highway Superintendent would be proposing for some period of time at least this winter hopefully to resolve this for future winters would be just to plow. He has a smaller vehicle that at some hassle to the Highway Department he can deploy for that portion of Birdsall Road that's narrow. That would be that the Town would as I understand it the Town would plow what's currently being utilized and traveled, and would not be doing any tree removal or paving or any other type of maintenance, improvements for the short term is that right? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I guess too, Mark we have to assure the people if we do that we're not taking anything for granted that it gives the Town any rights to do anything more in the future. TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-We have whatever rights and obligations we have. I think one season of doing this on a short term basis will not change that aspect of it that's a good point Betty. But, it might be appropriate for the Town Board just to seek some of informal consensus that nobody has a valiant objection with that short term program. I think in all fairness we need to give Mr. Naylor some direction here. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I guess in doing that are we making the assumption then that is a Town road? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I don't think we can with what we know now. RESIDENTS-No. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Then we should not be on it. The difference here if that's a private road we cannot touch it. We should not be there and I think Paul would agree with me. If we're making an assumption that we're going to put that truck on that road then to me it is a Town road. Am I right in saying that Paul? HIGHWAY SUPERINTENDENT, MR. NA YLOR-A hundred percent. TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-You are absolutely a hundred percent correct. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-There is a liability once we go on there with that truck and we make that plow go through there then there is definitely a liability. Then if someone slides off and goes into the lake and drowns guess who is going to pay the freight. I'm a little bit skittish since we've been doing what we've been doing since who knows when evidently at least if we want to go by past practice I can get by with that. But, I can't get by with past practice if I put a plow on that road and there is damage to a vehicle or something goes bad and he's going to have to be sanding he's got to make that road safe it is going to take sanding and god only knows what else. We should not be on a road that we can't improve to a level of a standard, I guess that's acceptable by the courts. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Or one that maybe a private right-a-way cause we don't have any business there. TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-Right. The most important aspect if it's not public we can't go on it. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I think what we need to do is kind of gather our forces here as a Town and try to come up with the best scenario that we can come back with without a decision. You folks are going to be brought in on any decision that's made in the future. I just need and I think we all together need to kind of just share what is going. To come back listen to the tape, I've got my notes and then to make a decision. Right now, I don't know whether and since he is the Highway Superintendent he has full rights and privileges of really putting a truck on there or not putting a truck on there. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I think Fred we also should say if anyone thinks of anything later on that would help of determine the history of this road or if they are talking to anybody else in the neighborhood there that hasn't come that can shed some more light on the history of the road we will appreciate knowing anything we can about the history of that property over there. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I'm going to raise a tough question here I guess we've taken enough punishment in abandoning roads over the last year and a half or two. I would never vote for abandoning a road unless you people out there do one of these to me. But in reality if we have done no improvements if it really never has been maintained for whatever reason since 1963, I don't know what the provisions are in the law for abandoning a road.... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Maybe we don't own it to abandoned it in the first place so I think you are putting the cart before the horse here. TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-The other thing I forgot to mention the tax maps they are not binding by any means, but just as another factor I think the tax maps show the Town portion ending at the pavement, I believe.. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-The tax maps show that. TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-I believe so. Again, that's not determinative either there are a number of different factors here that influence the ultimate legal decision. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-We don't know what deeds say as far as right-a-ways..... TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-We haven't heard anybody say anything about a deed saying that it is a Town road. That doesn't mean there aren't any but we certainly haven't heard that at all. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-So the only evidence we have on record that would identify that as a Town road is that the distance from point A to the other road is beyond where the blacktop is? TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-That's what Mr. Nikas asked was there anything else that we're aware of that indicated this might be a Town road. I think our answer was that not that we're aware of. Mr. Nikas we didn't ask you is there any other things besides what you've indicated to us that you are aware of that might indicate it is not a Town road but, I'm assuming whatever you know you've told us? MR. NIKAS-I've done a title search and you wouldn't find anything in the real property records that would indicate this is anything other than a private road. That's why I've come here to ask whether the Town has any information concerning.... Here is the problem with the issue I don't know this for sure, but I think probably everybody wouldn't object to a small truck plowing a road. The problem is once the Town gets involved in any aspect of improvement on this road these residents lose control. The next board that comes in may say, well we want to do something more than just plow we want to put fifty feet in, we want to pave, we want to salt. Absolute control is lost by these people who may very well like to see it plowed but don't want to see what's goes along with it and that's Town control. I don't think these people are trying to be bad neighbors as much as trying to avoid, you can't be half pregnant in this situation. The Town either owns it takes complete control over it and is subject to whatever Superintendent is in office and whatever board. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-You are absolutely right. COUNCILMAN TURNER-Let me ask Mr. Doherty a question since you are in the room would you care for the record what was the variances you applied for that piece of property? MR. DOHERTY-We had some setbacks... COUNCILMAN TURNER-Area variance. MR. DOHERTY-Yes. We did apply for a Town road variance. TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-Town road frontage. MR. DOHERTY-At that hearing we also addressed the fact that these records show as a Town road. I think that night we were granted our permits, our approvals. TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-To follow up on that. I thought when you spoke you said the property title search would of revealed it was a Town road. MR. DOHERTY-I said title search is under investigation. TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-You don't have any information about any title documentation to show a Town road, right? MR. DOHERTY-No. COUNCILMAN TURNER-I remember one other incident and I think that a lot of people that are in this room tonight were at that meeting, too. Not at your meeting a different meeting, I remember Mr. Beadleston was there. There was a controversial issue over a piece of property that the guy was going to put a house on right at the end of where Birdsall Road stops by your house and starts to go up the hill, right there to the left. I believe at that time the discussion revolved around that road not being a Town road. UNKNOWN-Right. It wasn't a Town road. COUNCILMAN TURNER-I think we have to do a lot of research to actually find out if this is a Town road. COLLEEN BEADLESTON-I would just like to know the legality of what distinguishes a Town road from a private road. I was told that each person, homeowner would have to give up fifty feet of there property to do this is this true? TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-It sounds like dedication. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-A road that we take today a deeded Town road we do take fifty feet, subdivision roads, etc., but that would not apply to a road that's been there by a road by use. A road by use is different than a private right-a-way. TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-Remember, I said earlier, legally there is two types of municipally owned roads. MRS. BEADLESTON-That's what I wanted to know what's the difference. TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-One of the differences is exactly what you are talking about. What's called a road by dedication is actually three rods or forty nine and a halffeet wide. What's called a road by use is however wide the actual use has been plus a small amount along the sides for reasonable maintenance. Nobody as far as I know is talking about any portion of Birdsall Road becoming what's called a road by dedication with the full fifty feet. MRS. BEADLESTON-Then that wouldn't apply? TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-Nobody is talking about it. MRS. BEADLESTON-That's good. TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-I don't think that's in the cards at all. As far as I know nobody is suggesting that. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-If by chance and I'm not sure how I see it at this stage, but if by chance this is identified as a valid Town road what would happen Paul basically to bring it up to standards what would be the process? HIGHWAY SUPERINDENT, MR. NAYLOR-The worse section is where you come off the blacktop of Birdsall and hit into those big pines trees. The big trucks can't fit through there and that's who plows that area. Again, we would have to transfer another truck in and then we would probably have to take the plow off the big truck and back in down in there because he couldn't make it between the pines. A tandem would not fit through there and it has to be sanded after we plow it. Just like Mr. Doherty said and Mr. Nikas if we maintain it we're going to go all the way because I don't need to be in court again. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Tree removal... ... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I'm not sure if you can take a tree if it's not in the road by use. TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-You can if it is close enough so you need to do it to maintain it you can. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Just because you want to bring the biggest truck you got in. TOWN COUNSEL, MR. SCHACHNER-Reasonable maintenance. UNKNOWN-Don't you need the property owners permission? HIGHWAY SUPERINTENDENT, MR. NAYLOR-Not really. If we take it the way that a normal Fuller Road, I can name them all, I've been in them all. There is a resolution as I know it that's says that road is a Town road. What we've always did was the width of it, if it's ten, fifteen feet wide. You guys have all drove in there and you know where the two big pines are the truck won't go around them I can't send them in the middle. One of them has to come down so I can get the truck in there. It has to be sanded and none of my trucks will fit in there and they cost a $120,000 of your taxpayer dollars. If! smash one up just plowing that road somebody is going to cry and it is going to be me probably crying the loudest so we got to wiggle through. We can probably do it this winter with the small one and then we're going to have to figure out how to sand it, sneak our way through there and sand it. We may have to even come down that other private road and sand backwards to get them I don't know. I've been in there when it's like it is right now and it is not easy to get in. You guys know you travel it every day try to drive a truck through it thinking if he could make it I don't think he can. There are two big pines right by the wire and all that and we have to spend four, five hundred bucks to get the tree people to come in and take them down then the stumps have to come out so we can.. ..that corner up. The only thing we can plow is what's there we can't go any where else unless it was all deeded that's what a road by use is you follow the road that's there. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I think from the conversation I hear from my fellow council people here I'm going to leave you tonight's message that says at least we're going to be leaving it alone at least on a temporary basis. When it snows next I hope whoever plows it in the past whether it is a private road or Town road, will have to be determined in the long run, and I'm sure we will do that. But, on a temporary and immediate basis we're going to hopefully keep the Town trucks off from it and we'll continue on as past practice. HIGHWAY SUPERINTENDENT, MR. NA YLOR-I have no problem with that. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Anything more to be said by anyone at this stage? Okay, thank you very much for coming. 6:30 P.M. MOREAU WATER Discussion held regarding Town of More Water Contract. No action taken. No further action taken. On motion, the meeting was adjourned Respectfully Submitted, Darleen M. Dougher Town Clerk Town of Queensbury