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2001-03-26 SP SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING MARCH 26, 2001 MTG.# 13 RES, 148-149 7:30 p.m. TOWN BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT SUPERVISOR DENNIS BROWER COUNCILMAN JAMES MARTIN COUNCILMAN TED TURNER COUNCILMAN DANIEL STEC - absent COUNCILMAN TIM BREWER TOWN OFFICIALS COMPTROLLER HENRY HESS WATER/WASTEWATER SUPT. RALPH VANDUSEN TOWN COUNSEL BOB HAFNER 1.0 RESOLUTIONS NONE 2.0 DISCUSSIONS 2.1 VEHICLE PURCHASE ALTERNATIVE DISCUSSION Supervisor Brower-The first item on the agenda we have a vehicle purchase alternative discussion as those of you who were are Monday's evenings meeting last week may recall the Town's Fleet Management Policy was defeated it was basically eliminated and as a result of that the appropriations that were set up for that funding source also were terminated. So, we had at the time we had five vehicles that were scheduled to be purchased and at this time we have four vehicles that are still scheduled to be purchased. The reason, the Board Members will know that I sent a memo last Tuesday, I believe, indicating that I did not think that we needed to replace the Blazer that Fred had so we removed the plates from the Blazer that is added to the four or five other vehicles that are scheduled to be auctioned and along with the bobcat, which will be auctioned this spring. So, that is the current status, Henry sent a letter to the vendors that had received purchase orders simply informing them that although they had thepurchase order there was no appropriation available for that purchase order at this time because the fleet policy had been eliminated. But he did indicate that they were not to cancel the PO in four of the five instances and that within a week or so the Board would probably establish another appropriation for the purchase orders that were out. So, that being the case, Henry do you want to review the four vehicles that are, remain to be purchased. Comptroller Hess-What we have at least what I have on my list there are four vehicles for which there are purchase orders outstanding, the water department has a truck for twenty three thousand four eighty three twenty ($23,483.20) the recreation department a truck for twenty five thousand three fifty nine ($25,359.00) community development excuse me seventeen thousand six eighteen forty ($17,618.40) and highway added in twenty three thousand five fifty eight sixty seven ($23,558.67) there are the four that we have purchase orders outstanding for. There are three other vehicles that need Board consideration but, they have not, there has been no purchase decision made on those yet. Actually there are two others, one of them is the wastewater truck that, it is a technicality there will be a resolution on Monday night to clean up the paper work on that but there are two others beyond that. Councilman Brewer-Can I start this out? I guess for me Henry and maybe I am taking this wrong and if I am I apologize in advance but, I am a little offended by what took place in this last week with the Newspaper with the letters sent to the vendors with the letters sent to the Department Heads. Why weren't we told of this first of all Monday night when we eliminated this policy and secondly why wasn't the Town Board copied of the letters that you sent to the Department Heads saying that there was no PO's and to the vendors. I think the Town Board approves the policies and approves purchases and for you to just go around end and go to Department Heads and have a little hissy fit because we took away your policy it offends me and it offends my constituent with you arrogance in the Newspaper Supervisor Brower-Tim Councilman Brewer-No, Dennis, No Supervisor Brower-you are getting out of line Councilman Brewer-I am not out of line, I am doing my job. I am telling Mr. Hess what calls I have received, and why and I think it was inappropriate for him to do that. I am not raising my voice and I think I have a right to do that. I just think it border lines I do not have a description for it Henry, but, there is not one Board Member or one person in this Town that you can't go to and ask to talk to and that we wouldn't talk to you and I am very offended by it. I just want you to know that, in public. So, I am not saying it behind your back, or to anybody else, I am saying it right to you. I would like the answer to those questions, please. Comptroller Hess-That was what I was waiting to get to. Two questions, I will ask them, answer them in reverse order. The first one, why weren't you given copy of the letters that were sent to the Department Managers, they were letters that were sent to vendors I copied the Department Managers and I copied the Supervisor. That is an appropriate reaction I do not copy Town Board Members on all my routine correspondence. I did what I needed to do. Councilman Brewer-To me this is not routine. Comptroller Hess-Well, are you to let me, you need to let me answer my question. So, that's I consider routine, it was a routine matter. Why and I guess your other question was why didn't I tell you Monday night what the consequences were? I guess is what you are saying. I do not know exactly what I said Monday night I know that we have had two workshops over this and during those two workshops I do not think I concealed the consequences of that at all. I think that they need, you need, if you go back and review the minutes and review what was said I was very emphatic and very clear that the central fleet internal service fund was tied to the central fleet policy and that was not concealed it was stated very flat out. I do not know if you remember it maybe I did not say it last Monday night but I did not conceal that and. Councilman Brewer-I guess the thing that bothers me the most Comptroller Hess-I cannot take responsibility for the consequence of your actions on last Monday night. Councilman Brewer-But, you are the Comptroller of this Town and your job in my mind, it is your responsibility to tell us if we do something and there are financial implications and you did not do that. Supervisor Brower-Well, there really aren't financial implications Tirn. Councilman Brewer-Well I guess, there is Dennis. Supervisor Brower-Let me explain. The only financial implication is you have to look to another funding source. In other words if you want to replace these vehicles we can go, we can find the funds elsewhere they may have to come out of general fund. The way, Henry can probably explain it better to you, but the way the fleet service fund worked it was kind of a self sustaining fund, in that he borrowed money over five years at the same rate that we get interest on investments at the time, five and a quarter percent currently. I asked Henry to come up with some alternatives for this evening for the Board consideration on how the remaining vehicles could be funded if you desire to do so. He will have that presentation for you this evemng. Councilman Brewer-I guess the implication I am talking about Dennis if there was money in that fund where did that money just disappear to? Supervisor Brower-Henry would you explain that? Comptroller Hess-Well, I will try and do that. There is really not money in the fund, when you talk about cash being in the bank, that is an enterprise fund, what we would have done is raised the money through debt to pay for the vehicles and then receive the money back from the Departments as they lease those vehicles. The fact is, the mechanics of it are really less than important than the authority for it. The authority for operating that fund came from the Central Fleet Internal Service Fund, that was the authority under which that fund was established and when that went so did the funds, so did the Internal Service Fund. Councilman Martin-There are not any individual Departments as I recall there is vehicle line item in each Department, and that is how the Comptroller Hess-And I gave you an accounting of how that money could be reapplied to buy these vehicles. Councilman Martin-So, that is essentially what you would be doing then instead of making a lease payment or the payment from the vehicle fund to the Central Vehicle Fund we are going to make the payment like we used to do, right directly from the vehicle, the Departmental Vehicle line item Comptroller Hess-There are two ways you have to it. Councilman Martin-right in and out... Comptroller Hess-Two ways I think you need to consider it, one is either take the additional, there will be an unused appropriation that was set aside to lease those vehicles from the Internal Service Fund. There will be a portion of that, that is not used and that is detailed in this hand out that I gave out right to the dollar because we went and made that adjustment. So, the difference between that and what the vehicle cost can be achieved in two ways. One through other intra-fund transfers either through contingency or other parts, Departmental budgets or where ever the Board wants to take it from or you can BAN the additional debt from the general fund. Fortunately, there are two purchases that are not from general fund, one from the wastewater and one is from water. They can sustain themselves, in fact it was really anticipated that way. They were calculated that way, so the only ones that we are talking about are three vehicles from the general fund and you can either use contingency for that, yo can BAN it and pay it off over a period of time. But, you are right it will be purchased from the departmental line item and paid for from Department money, either transferred in or from BAN purposes. Councilman Martin-But, what I mean is that lump sum total amount of money is in that Departmental line itern. Comptroller Hess-Yes, it is. Councilman Brewer-So, Highway goes back to purchasing from Highway? Comptroller Hess-Goes back, no it will purchase from Highway Admin. Councilman Martin-But, like the Community Development vehicle for example, that money from the Community Development line item will go to where? Comptroller Hess-It will go to, it will go out of the 411 account which is the . .into an Equipment Purchase Account which is 2020 and then the car will be paid for, the vehicle will be paid for out of the 2020. Councilman Martin-All right. Well, I think there is, you know, this policy thing, I mean we will work it out. I think, I again like the idea of generally speaking as we approach it, a new policy the idea of people who deal a lot with vehicles in the Town who have a history of doing that be that so called management entity. Will it be a committee or a person, I think a committee would be better. I think a group of Department Heads with skill in these things would be a good way to do it. But, I think we are all here you know feeling a little bit nervous and jerky and gun shy over the coverage in the paper. I mean that's. Comptroller Hess-Let me, I would like to say one thing about that, Tim raised it as a question without a question mark at the end. I, I am not sure why you feel my participation with the newspaper was anything other than I answered questions that they asked me on the phone. Dennis got first calls he referred the guy over to me I talked to him a couple of times, I did nothing more than answer his specific questions. So, I mean, if that, I am not sure, I am not sure if you did not like what you read but, I did not write that article. Councilman Brewer-I did not like what was said. Well, the things that you said Henry were, I got home tonight from work and on my answering machine is saying that our Comptroller has a lot of gull and a lot of arrogance saying that we are a rich community and that we should be, and we can afford to buy cars for employees and I think that is the wrong thing for a representative of this town to say. I am offended by it. And if, you know, I am sorry, there is no other way I can put it except to say, that I think it was the wrong thing to say and I am offended by it. If anybody in this room thinks that we have so much money that we can piss it away you know I think they are wrong. Comptroller Hess-I don't I do not know, I think there is a lot more words than I said that were even quoted in the paper there I do not think that is really the way it was said. But, you know, if I have a poor choice of words I mean I will apologize to the Board that is why I am not a politician. But, I think, but I think that the impression I gave it not one that we all don't feel and it has not been voiced around this table. Councilman Brewer-Well, it is not from tax dollars I can tell you that Henry, it is from sales tax. Our tax dollars in this community go . .not very far. Comptroller Hess-You can think that those sales tax dollars don't belong to the property owners Councilman Brewer-I am not saying Comptroller Hess-But that is exactly who they belong to Councilman Brewer-I am not saying that they don't belong to the property owners. Comptroller Hess-and you are as accountable for those as every much as if you are accountable Councilman Brewer-Absolutely. Comptroller Hess-for the dollar from sales tax, they belong to the same people. Councilman Brewer-Absolutely. Supervisor Brower-Well, you know when I first came on board with the town I had a little problem with you know, you see the Assessor's car you know it looks new, all these white cars they look new for about seven years you know, I mean they really do look good. I sawall these new cars around and it drove me a little nuts I went into see Henry one day and I said you know Henry, I am driving an older car you know and a lot of miles and it runs just like a top and why do we have to replace these vehicles, every five years, what is the importance of it? Henry said, well Dennis, I understand where you are coming from but look at it this way, if you buy a twenty five thousand dollar car for seventeen five you purchase it over five years and the Departments pay for it over five years and it gets maybe sixty to seventy thousand miles after five years and you turn it in and make ten thousand dollars on the re-sale because it is not worn, it is not beaten into the ground you have spent seventy five hundred or seven housand dollars for five years for that vehicle plus the insurance and plus the gas which we buy at a reduced price. By doing that you keep a high residual value and you get the maximum out of the car after the five years. So, I was able to accept that acknowledgement. One thing that probably bothered me as much as it bothered the rest of you was the sixty car number because Councilman Brewer-Exactly. Supervisor Brower-I had always understood, it was in the forty two car range and I know that we have five cars that are ready to be auctioned, which technically are still our cars. But, and Henry brought a break down of the different vehicles. Comptroller Hess-As far as the content of the article, I will say that again, I did not write that article, he got a lot of information from me and there are two things, there are two numbers that he calculated out that that I think were inaccurate. One, was the twenty seven thousand dollar per year or twenty seven thousand mile per year break even and he and I never talked about what the break even number was on a vehicle. In fact, after that got published, Dennis and I sat down and did a quick thing in my office and we came out that it looks like it is probably more like fourteen. So, I mean, he did a calculation that I cannot support nor tell you how he came up with it. As it relates to the sixty cars he did ask me about that and I argued with Tom over the phone that I think he was, I think he is distorting the number if he wants to use sixty because he specifically asked me. You have forty eight cars and they are not all cars they are service trucks from water and these are all and we were very clearyou know, in sedans we have about seven or eight, the rest of them are service type vehicles. He was interested in knowing how many vehicles do we have including Highway that are not dump trucks with plows on. We debated that, three or four minutes but finally I said, if you take the forty eight that we have through out the rest of the fleet and add about twelve that are registered and I was very careful to tell him I do not know that they are, how they are, I know that they registered as pickups on our inventory but I do not know what these vehicles look like. I cannot account for that, but he asked a question and I had the information in front of me and we gave it to them. But, I did not give him I did not tell him how to define those vehicles and I really don't feel like I need to defend why, his article. I mean I am sitting here trying to defend what the man wrote, what the man wrote .. Councilman Brewer-What you wrote in your own letter congratulating on how not all the facts are one hundred percent accurate the over all context of the story is substantially accurate and does not lead, mis- lead the read the reader. That is a quote from your letter, Henry. Comptroller Hess-That is right, exactly it is. Yes. I stand by that. Councilman Brewer-Write it as a taxpayer not as a comptroller saying that your are saying to us here tonight that things are not accurate but in your letter to them you are saying they are accurate. So, what is it? I mean, I am just reading what you wrote, I did not write it. Councilman Martin- I just want to move on from this point and know how we can make things better. You know I have been out to New Hartford, they are a client of ours and I have ridden in Jerry's Back who is a Building Inspector for the Town of New Hartford, I have ridden in his cruiser, around town getting a tour of it because we did their land use plan. So, but I just you know, I got to, I cannot believe that they are running that town on ten vehicles I do not think there are, is an apples and apples comparison made between the content of our list that makes up sixty and the content of ten cars that maybe involved in building inspection and things like that. You know, but, I am not going to sit here and say there is not room for improvement, that is fine. I think we have to bear in mind the rank and profile of the person that lives in this community who has got some rattletrap used car with roll up windows no air-conditioning, sweats their fanny off in a ninety degree day and they are sitting there readin about our, you know, sport utility fully decked out. I can not blame them for being you know upset, so I think we got to start looking you know are there better ways. I think we do need somewhere near close to sixty if you are going to continue to supply service to the extent that people have come used to. You know what I mean, like I ran that department down stairs, I know that when calls for inspections come in from a contractor they want somebody there within the hour. We all sat around here and hear about the Fire Marshal woe's we are three years behind on our annual inspections. That is not tri-annuals that is annual. We are three years behind in our annual inspections we consciously decided to give him an assistant, if we are going to go out and start shortening that list and keep up with it we have got to have that person in a car going out there, doing his job. He cannot wait until one comes available in the fleet and sit around the rest of the time. So, it is going to become a value judgemen between the level of service people expect and what we are going to supply and how we are going to supply it and the means we are, give them to supply that service with. Now, I will listen to ideas about you know, and maybe Henry can do some investigations for us, is there used vehicles, does that make sense? Can we get into a consortium with other townships about getting used stuff; does that make financial sense? Maybe it doesn't, maybe we are buying you know a piece of junk and if you apply the finances it is really worse. But, I am willing to look at this stuff. I think a question as been raised, and maybe it has some merit on some points on some fronts and we ought to investigate that. But, I do think we have to bear in mind the level of service that people access at this township and those vehicles are a means to that end. So, I am not so sure the numbers are all that far off given what we do. Let's investigate it. But, I do think there are ways maybe we could be a little smarter with the annua outlay and the types of vehicles we are getting. Councilman Brewer-I agree with you Jirn. I would simply said, that my perception of what was said in the paper whether who said it or who wrote it or whatever is that you can come up to this building tomorrow morning and see sixty cars sitting out here and that's, and we all know that's not true. I came up here Sunday there were five cars here. They were building inspectors cars or whatever the case might have been. I think what we have to do is compile a list per department, how many cars we have how many trucks we have, how many service trucks we have and let the public know. It is our obligation to do that. Councilman Martin-And maybe, if it is a conscious decision to reduce the service that we supply then that is a conscious decision. I would tend not to want to do that. Supervisor Brower-I do not know as we would reduce the service, I think there are certain departments the building inspector, the code enforcement officer, the fire marshal, the assistant fire marshal, the animal control officer, there is five vehicles right there that are pretty much assigned to the ... Councilman Martin-And they are in service basically, six or seven hours.. Councilman Turner-They are used every day of the week, eight hours a day that is why they are there. Supervisor Brower-So, those things aren't what we are worried about, I think what the article did for me was to think about, ok, the Cemetery, now Rod Mosher, I have not talked to Rod, I wanted to get to him today, I hope to talk to him tomorrow, I want to know what Rod does with his car. He drives it a couple of thousand miles a year. You know is he driving people around to look at cemetery plots or what. There are some people that don't necessarily have to have a town vehicle that we would be pleased to pay thirty four and a half cents a mile when they drive their own vehicle. I think it is those exceptions to the rule, but when you start trying to put your finger on anyone it is tough to isolate a need, a specific vehicle that you could terminate, except like the Blazer. I mean no one ever drove that so we took the plates off of that. Councilman Brewer-Yea, but Dennis, just because nobody likes it, is not a reason to get rid of it. Supervisor Brower-Low usage though. One of the things that I think may have, the fleet policy with the clip boards in the car so people signed in and they put their starting mileage, ending mileage, where they were going, one of the reasons for that was over the course of the next three years we hope to be able to isolate how many miles are being put on each vehicle. Are various people using these vehicles or is just the same person using it? Do they need a vehicle? Hopefully we would be able to take it through natural attrition. But, now that we do not have a policy we have got to take a new look at it and say what do we do now. Mr. Pliney Tucker-Can I answer a question? Supervisor Brower-Well, it is not designed for that, but, give me five minutes and we will take your question. Councilman Brewer-I do not think it is anybody's intention to not have a policy I think the idea was to re- write the policy, keep the things that we thought were good and maybe add some different things. There were things in there that we did not think were right, that complicated everything. So, that is my main reason for getting rid of it. Supervisor Brower-It would have been easier to work with the existing policy and change it. Councilman Martin-Again, I think a discussion of a policy misses the point, at least that was made that I got out of .. The policy is not all that complex, from what I read even of the old one there is only a certain few numeration's you are going to talk about and ...The big thing is the over all number of the vehicles and the cost. Is there a way we can reduce the number, I tend to think it is marginal, I do not know that we can all that much as you have indicated. But, I do think that there maybe ways that we could be smarter, about how we purchase and about how long we keep them. Maybe I am wrong, I would like to do that investigation. You know, do used vehicles from somewhere make more sense or are you buying something you are going to have it five hundred miles and it blows the engine. I do not know. Supervisor Brower-Well, we can do what other companies and other municipalities do, they will say, you know what we do not think you Mr. Manager need a vehicle so will you pull that vehicle and you pay him mileage from then on and this happened at the County recently, Sheriff Cleveland came the Sheriff Committee Meeting and said there are two jail, people in our jail that do not need cars anymore, they have had them for ten years I am recommending that we not provide them cars, but I would like to ask this committee if we should pay them a stipend? I was totally opposed to that, because if a management decision is you are not going to have a car you do not pay someone more because they are not going to have a car anymore. But, the committee saw fit to pay them a little more because they were losing their car. Again, I did not support that. Councilman Martin-I can tell you it will not make sense to do that. At least the department that I understand the best and that is Community Development the building inspectors down there average twelve to thirteen thousand miles a year as does Animal Control and Fire Marshal. You start paying out thirty four and a half cents per mile at that kind of rate. Supervisor Brower-If you recall, I said I did not think those Councilman Martin-You are right, I just wanted to get that out there. Supervisor Brower..good examples. Comptroller Hess- I just want to say something to Jim, because, I think the kind of research you are talking about we did it a couple of years ago, it is time maybe to look at it again because we have had a couple years of experience with what we have been doing. We have tested the acceptance level we have tested the complaints on it and it is time to re-look at it. I do not have objections to that, and there are models out there and there are other people that have experimented and come up with some things. You know the article such as this, which has a great deal of information you know life cycle costing, other people have come up with. We do not have to, we do not have to reinvent those things and we do not re-invent those things. Councilman Martin-Well, fine, that is the exact type of things that I am talking about. Comptroller Hess-We accumulate that stuff, we refer to it we do not do these things in a vacuum, so I mean, I think what you are suggesting is totally appropriate. But, you know, it needs some direction. Councilman Martin-.J do think we ought to the other aspect of that is I think we ought to be pushing the envelope more as to how long we keep a vehicle. Especially the way vehicles are made today, they tend to go longer and hold up better and I know there is that balancing act between ok, if you hold it too long then what is the return value when you go to resell it. But, I cannot help but feel and this is a simplistic approach that when, you take a case like didn't the Recreation Department just get rid of a Ford Truck it was like a seventy six or something like that a seventy nine, I mean I cannot help but feel man we did pretty well on that vehicle. For twenty five years of service you know, we probably stopped paying on it twenty years ago sure you had up keep and stuffbut man I tell you got a pretty good buck on that one. If we can push the envelop on longevity and keep. I know down in the building office we have got a lot of use out of the ranger trucks when I came there they were eighty eighths nd eighty nines and god just until a year or two ago they were still in service, that is a lot of miles. Comptroller Hess-You know I repeat this again, I think I have said it every time we have had a workshop on this topic is that when we said we were going to have a five year cycle that was considered a optimum cost for certain of our vehicles. We sort of said ok, that is what we are going to finance them at but it was never really intended that every vehicle was going to have a five year life cycle. It was going to be, because some of them have lower mileage. I mean Rodney's car, if Rodney was to keep a car for two thousand miles a year you would either have to take it away from him in two years and put it in a higher mileage usage and trade him off or you would have to let him keep that car until he wears it out, because you could not get your value out of it with that low mileage. So, I mean, that was the purpose of fleet management to really we use the word five years there are not going to be that many vehicles in that fleet that really have a five year life cycle most of them are going to have six maye seven. When you are talking about trucks maybe four or five when you are talking about sedans. So, it was a work in progress. Councilman Martin-I do think Tim's point is well taken. I understand what you are saying Henry about there is a responsibility to a sales tax revenue it is as great as it is a tax revenue it is as simple as that. But, I think the point that was trying to be made is you know, I think at twenty cents per thousand on a town tax rate it is having marginal impact on the over all budget of the town, at best. What I feel is the thing that bothers me is that there is opportunity being lost here in terms of ways to better utilize that money to meet the needs of the community. I think that has been, you know there has been opportunities lost for a while, I think, I keep on asking about like the Capital Plan and the Capital Spending Program because there are big projects out there that would be meaningful to this community that would have tangible benefit, seeing their tax dollars at work, rather than seeing, having the impression that they are sitting in some vehicle fleet parking lot. That is what I would like toget at those discussions, that is the opportunity, because even if you were to eliminate real property tax we still got sales tax revenue coming in and we have no say over that rate. We cannot cut that rate. So, I think there is opportunities for this town to do some meaningful things for its constituents and that is where I would like to plow those savings in. Supervisor Brower-We have got some major projects coming up like the Exit 18 Corridor, Councilman Martin-Exactly. Supervisor Brower-where we are going to need to find funds from the town to pay for some of that infrastructure. Councilman Martin-Exactly, and that is meaningful to people, they can see that. Supervisor Brower-I do not think we, you know, it is one thing that we have to address and of course then there are many other items on the Capital Program list that, you know wish list so to speak. Councilman Martin-And if we do, can realize a savings from a vehicle policy what ever that may be these are the types of things that can go into, better infrastructure, safer roads and things like that, better drainage. Comptroller Hess-I guess what I need to, what I need to have a sense of we are coming up to a Board meeting next week and we have four vehicles on this list that you previously approved, we had to reset an appropriation if you intend to do it this way either through contingency and just to give you some sense of what that would be now, it would be sixteen, thirty, forty three thousand dollars, forty four thousand dollars would be used from contingency or we could BAN is another option. We could BAN the forty four thousand or we could BAN the forty four thousand and the debt we owe in the Internal Service Fund and liquidate that all at one time. I can do an analysis on that, but I wonder whether you want to, do you want to do a BAN or do you want to pay the forty three thousand dollars out of contingency and buy these vehicles. Councilman Martin-I guess what I am not following you, why can't, I just, you and I just talked about the vehicle line items in the respective departments would be the source, why are we paying out of contingency. Comptroller Hess-If you look at this sheet what you have, this is the fund available in that line item, because it was a lease amount not a purchase amount. So, this colunm had the amount that is available in that line item subtract that from the cost of the vehicle and this is what you are short and what you need to cover that shortage. That is the issue, so we need to cover it from a BAN or we need to cover it from Councilman Brewer-What are we making on the money that we have in the bank and what are we borrowing at so I guess that determines what, whether we buy them or we just borrow the money. Comptroller Hess-Well, right now you are going to borrow it, interest rates are down. It is going to be about, it is going to be about a wash. I think you will make about ten percent or excuse me a tenth of a point, tenth to a quarter at the most of a point by borrowing the money on arbitrage. By borrowing the money and leaving your money in the bank. Supervisor Brower-Over five years? Comptroller Hess-Well, that much a year, about a tenth of a percent a year, tenth to a quarter of a percent a year is the difference in arbitrage, you willleam in arbitrage. Councilman Brewer-So, on thirty five thousand dollars how much are you going to make? Comptroller Hess-Peanuts. Councilman Brewer-...it does not make any sense does it? Comptroller Hess-Now you still got two other vehicles that you need to deal with in that way if you are going to entertain thern. Supervisor Brower-Well, Tim you said buy them, Comptroller Hess-Through contingency. Supervisor Brower-Through contingency as opposed to taking the bond anticipation note? Councilman Martin-No, I think you do it out of the BAN myself. Supervisor Brower-I think the bond anticipation note would be the wiser choice. Councilman Martin-If this was November and we were dipping into contingency, that would be one thing, this is March. Comptroller Hess-Plus the fact that you have got two other vehicles. If you are going to consider the Recreation Dump Truck which was scheduled. Councilman Brewer-Can you put that in there with it? Comptroller Hess-No, I just gave you the four that have purchase orders on them, Harry did not get his purchase order in on this other one until this week, or give his request for a PO and then Building and Grounds has put in a request to replace their dump truck a year in advance. You have two dump trucks that total sixty five thousand dollars and if you are going to BAN them you BAN them at the same time. Councilman Brewer-Then why don't we get everything ready for Monday night and with the other two and see what it is going to be. Can we do that? Comptroller Hess-We can do it. Councilman Martin-That takes care of the short term needs. Councilman Turner-That takes care of just what you got there what about the balance you have got in the fleet. Comptroller Hess-The fleet, well, two ways, you can deal with the fleet now or your can deal with the fleet during budget time. There is no reason to have to pay that off. We could do it now but, after we talked about it I looked at it and said there is really, that debt is set hanging off now it would only transfer it to another debt line item. I think we should keep it and deal with that during the budget time. We will have a better picture, there is no compelling reason to move that out. Councilman Martin-That just deals with the short term now the longer term or the mid term thing is this idea, ok, what are we going to come back with a new policy. You know, who are we going to direct to draft such a thing, you know, and what should it say. Supervisor Brower-There is also another question, maybe we should ask and I don't already know, the State purchasing program you know they have some time limits and we have got some PO's in but other than like one, vehicle that I can think of and that's cemetery which comes to mind I cannot think of any other, well I can think of one other possible vehicle, I heard of, is Ralph here? There was an old Crown Vic or something a spare, a spare car in the Water Department that you have over there? Water/wastewater Superintendent Ralph VanDusen-I was not aware of that. Supervisor Brower-Well, that is what I heard. Water/wastewater Supt. VanDusen-Really. Supervisor Brower-Trying to get a hold of you Friday and earlier today. Water/wastewater Supt. VanDusen-There is a Crown Vic that I drive, I guess if you do not need me you don't need my car, but ... Comptroller Hess-But, what I have heard said was that we were going to get inventories together and go from,...what we did in 1999, actually in 1998 we did a survey of all vehicles in the Town and we went through and did a survey by department of every vehicle its condition its mileage it usage so we could monitor how much it gets used a year, and it is probably time to do that again. Its has been three years and if you are going to go through this process it is probably time to do that and then start with that. I do not think there is any reason to take a knee jerk action until you really look at that. Councilman Brewer-So, lets put that together and then we can sit back down and Comptroller Hess-Is that something you want me to put together? Supervisor Brower-Yes. Councilman Martin-Well, lets decide that fundamentally, right now is as we approach this new policy, and we are taking this first initial step is this something that we are going to ask be drafted out of the Comptroller's office no matter what the substance and form and content of it is? Is that what we are? Councilman Brewer-I would like us to draft an outline and then we can refine it with a committee if you want. Councilman Martin-That is what I mean but I mean the first draft or something to put in our hands for us to review is that what we are asking? Councilman Brewer-Our inventory. Councilman Martin-Yea, I know but this is going to lead on to a larger, the actual narrative statement policy, who is physically going to draft that thing? I think we ought to start now and decide that now so as you look at this inventory and all that. Councilman Brewer-Why don't we Councilman Martin-I am not drafting that, I can tell you that. Supervisor Brower-We made some suggestions on Monday, but of course they were rejected so, so I do not know where we are exactly right now. Councilman Brewer-Why don't we see if we can get some Department Managers that have experience with Councilman Martin-Ralph, would you be interested in working on such a policy? Water/wastewater Supt. VanDusen-Sure, actually a couple years ago, two and a half years ago or so Henry and I had a conversation about the program and at that time in the very early, early stages there was some discussion of Henry and I about the possibility of involving some Department Heads to get input from several view points not just the financial end but ... Councilman Martin-That is my point. Water/wastewater Supt. VanDusen-I was in favor of that then and I am certainly still in favor of that. Councilman Brewer-Chuck? Building and Grounds Supt. Chuck Rice-More than glad to. Councilman Brewer-We have got two pigeons right there. Councilman Martin-Well, I would like, and do you think maybe if Rick were here or Harry I am just trying to get people that have been around the system a while and you know ..on the vehicles a lot. Councilman Brewer-Why don't we ask Dennis or Ralph to or Chuck to get a hold ofthern. Supervisor Brower-I actually want to sit in on this because Councilman Martin-You are a given I am talking about, Henry is a given because of financing is going to be a key aspect of it. Councilman Brewer-Can I sit in on it? Supervisor Brower-Yes. Councilman Brewer-Ok. Councilman Martin-So, we have got, what one, two, three, four, five I think one more Department Head like a Rick or a Harry or somebody like that would be appropriate, I do not know how you feel. Councilman Turner -I would get Rick. Councilman Martin-Rick? Councilman Turner-I really do because he deals with vehicles all the time. Councilman Martin-If he would be willing to do it he would be the best one because he has got more vehicles than anybody and he has been here, how many years was he under you? Former Highway Supt. Paul Naylor-Eighteen Councilman Martin-Eighteen, I mean, he would be my first choice in terms of one more member. Councilman Brewer-So, we can ask Rick tomorrow. Councilman Martin-And you guys can work on formulating a new policy from all perspectives, legislator, financing and the guys that will use the vehicles. Councilman Brewer-What am I a bump on the log? Councilman Martin-Legislator. Councilman Brewer-Oh. Councilman Martin-I did not say politician. Do you want to set a time frame for first response back? Councilman Turner-You have to get the inventory done. Councilman Martin-Well I know, in consideration of that. I would like to have a time frame so things move. I will put on my calendar that the report is due here. Councilman Brewer-The first week of May? Councilman Martin-Is that enough time to do the inventory. Comptroller Hess-Oh yea, we can do the inventory... Councilman Martin-The first week in May to have a draft and policy. Councilman Brewer-A draft policy the first week. Councilman Martin-How does that sound Ralph does that fit into your workload? Councilman Brewer-What is the first meeting date in May, do you have a calendar, Jim? Councilman Martin-May the 7th. Councilman Brewer-May the 7th so we should probably have a meeting sometime Water/wastewater Supt. VanDusen-Earlier is better for me I am on vacation the end of April, so. Councilman Brewer-Oh, I will have a meeting in the beginning of April. Councilman Martin-We should have it pretty much set by then, then it is a matter of having it typed up. Councilman Brewer-So, Dennis you will arrange getting a meeting together with us some afternoon or early morning. Councilman Martin-And you will investigate used vehicle purchases and things like that in light of the new Comptroller Hess-I am going to put you on an inventory, for you to deal with so you can see what you are talking about. Councilman Martin-I am talking beyond that when we go.. Comptroller Hess-When you go into however you want to put this out I mean I will look at anyway you ask for. Councilman Brewer-I do not really like the idea of buying... Councilman Martin- I just want to not leave any stone unturned. Comptroller Hess-One thing about used vehicles you buy new vehicles off State Contract with about a year, year and a half depreciation already on them. Supervisor Brower-Yea, exactly. Comptroller Hess-So you could go out and buy a two year old vehicle and not, and pay the same price you pay for a new one off State Contract, so that speaks against used vehicles unless you buy really old ones. Councilman Martin-I just want, you know, let Henry then I would like you know, enumerated, you know, advantages or disadvantages because that is what needs to be out there because perception is, gees, they are buying all these new cars and now in New Hartford they are ridding around in one hundred thousand miles squad cars it is good enough for them god danm it. You know, these finances you know, there is fine points like this that are huge in a decision that are very relevant. Councilman Brewer-I guess we beat that horse enough. Supervisor Brower-Well, I did promise Mr. Tucker and ask what he had to say? Did you have a question? Mr. Pliney Tucker-That is all right I got my, my ..was answered. I do have a comment and I am not knocking anybody or anything else, but, Jim mentioned and about the people out there. If this had been worded just a little different, kept the old policy and then made the changes those fine gentlemen, the two gentlemen over there working for that wonderful Post Star, would not have had a thing to write about. Tim talks about answering questions, Boy, I get it all the time. Sixty cars, sixty cars like hell, they counted his vehicles and they had no right to count his vehicles because they are only owned by the people in the water district not the entire town. Supervisor Brower-As is the sewer district. Councilman Martin-I think we need to make those kinds of apples and apples comparisons, when New Hartford gave you that number was it, was their water districts and their sewer districts Supervisor Brower-They did not give it to me. Councilman Martin-Well I know, Supervisor Brower-I kept saying to Tom, comparison... Councilman Martin- I just have a hard time believing that. Supervisor Brower-But, you know what, the bottom line is it is something that I had not really focused hard on because I thought we had a policy in place that was functioning well that seemed to be working that seemed to have a lot of financial advantages from the way it was being financed and paid for except, obviously the managers did not like the five percent charge on it and possibly some managers did not like the over sight of having a third party looking over their shoulder, but the bottom line is it is dam over the water or water over the dam excuse me and now we have got to move forward and look at a policy that will work for the Town effectively. Councilman Martin- I never really looked at it that hard, because I just know what the kind of demands are for service out there. Supervisor Brower-But, Jim, like I said, let me tell you something I enjoy my own car in sales and I paid, like I paid mileage so you know it is not uncommon. Councilman Martin-Yea, but Dennis, that is all factored into the I get a little tired of hearing the white knight private sector, you know, that is all factored into your overhead too and your bottom line products are paying for that and profit to boot. Supervisor Brower-But, Jim, thirty four and a half cents is a good re-imbursement rate. Councilman Martin-When we start paying thirty four and a half cents and you are going to see that vehicle line item go up. Supervisor Brower-That is why you cannot do it across the board randomly you have got to be specific, but we also have to know what our cost is and Henry can calculate. Councilman Brewer-But you also, you and I talked about this yesterday, Dennis, lets have our insurance company say all right if we are going to start paying people the thirty four and a half cents this is not private sector, this is we would have to look at, do we need a rider on our insurance policy because those employees are working for the Town although they are in their vehicles the town can be sued. Supervisor Brower-I do not know if that is true. Councilman Brewer-Well, I am telling you, at my work we had to put a rider on our company insurance policy to cover me because if I was in my own vehicle and I was working and I got sued, and it went beyond my policy they could sue our company. Comptroller Hess-We have a rider like that, but to be honest with you it is intended for the casual use, if you were to go to predominant use that would change Councilman Brewer-So, would have to look at that cost also. Councilman Martin-And when you started filing your claims that would really change in premiurn. Comptroller Hess-One of the things you would need to do if you were going to use primary, and I am not an advocate for using thirty four, we did a calculation the other day, just so you are aware, after this twenty seven thousand mile thing appears and I sat down and did a real quick calculation and its down and dirty it is nothing sophisticated. What we figured using ten thousand miles as a base for a count on vehicle what would you spend to drive a town vehicle ten thousand miles on average using cost of ownership, insurance, depreciation, and a years maintenance. It equates to about what you could pay an employee to drive fourteen thousand miles for at thirty four and a half cents. So, the break even point is someplace between the two call it fourteen thousand miles. So, there is a calculation to do there but there are other risks involved. At some point an employee does not have to drive his own vehicle and there is nothing in our personnel policy or union contract that says when you want an employee 0 go someplace that they have to use their own car so there are other factors involved that you have to weight. So, it is not a cut and dry thing. Councilman Brewer-And you have to think about not only, you employees what kind of cars do they have? You know, I mean, insurance companies start looking at those things and the more they are going to start to cha-ching, cha-ching, cha-ching Councilman Martin-They will not mind at first but you start filing the claims and they will start looking. Comptroller Hess-One of the things I started to say in the business of education where we used to have people drive their own vehicles we use to maintain their vehicles under DOT and we use to make sure they were inspected, make sure that we had the insurance, a copy of the insurance card or the drivers license and every year we got a drivers record for thern. Some of those things would be applicable here. If you are going to use the employees car as your fleet you will have to maintain it in terms of administration, very similar to what you maintain your own fleet in order to be safe. Supervisor Brower-I know we required all our drivers to take safe driving programs at the town and they take that periodically. Councilman Martin-Every three years I think isn't it. Supervisor Brower-If they are driving town vehicles. Councilman Martin-I have taken that a couple of times as well we should. Supervisor Brower-I am scheduled to take one down the road, I haven't yet. Councilman Martin-I have seen you drive, you better. Supervisor Brower-Thank you. Councilman Martin-We need a little levity here. Well, thank you guys for serving on that committee. Comptroller Hess-.J am going came back with a resolution next week to Councilman Martin-To cover the short term, then, alright. Unknown-May I ask a couple of questions? Supervisor Brower-Yes. Unknown-How many departments that have these sixty vehicles, ten, five, six? Supervisor Brower-Water, Sewer, Cemetery, Community Planning, Building Department, Recreation Dept. , Transfer Station, Councilman Martin-We probably have eight or nine. Unknown-Is it possible to get a list of the departments of how many cars.. Councilman Brewer-That is exactly what we are going to do. Supervisor Brower-He has an inventory but not necessarily broke down. Comptroller Hess-It is an inventory but it is not a condition inventory. Unknown-I would like to see it broken down per department myself. Councilman Martin-That would be easy enough to do. Unknown-How many cars have you got in each one of these departments. Comptroller Hess-That is what we do we send a Department Manager and they actually do an inspection report on each of the vehicles so they know not just what is there what is its condition and whatever. Councilman Brewer-We have to note though Nick, that Ralph's Department, Water Department and Sewer are funded by Special Districts so they are not really. Unknown-Still the money comes out of the town. Water/wastewater Supt. VanDusen-No Councilman Brewer-Special Districts pay for those. Mr. Pliney Tucker-It comes out of the water district when you pay your water bill. Comptroller Hess-They are paying differently, but Unknown-It is still through the town, I do not care where you are getting this money when you start making all these different phrases like they are making here, you know, they can play all the games they want to the money still comes from Councilman Brewer-I do not think anybody is trying to play games you are saying that Unknown-No, I am just saying you know when you are saying that it comes from one appropriation to another appropriation to another appropriation. Councilman Brewer-When you starting talking about a truck that he has a two ton dump truck up there we are not going to count that as somebody driving that vehicle around all the time. Councilman Martin-I think it does make a difference in North Queensbury I am not paying any money that results in a vehicle purchase for water or sewer department because I do not get those services. Mr. Pliney Tucker-About a half of the town doesn't Jim. Councilman Martin-That is right. Mr. Pliney Tucker-Half of the Town does not pay for the vehicles that the water department uses. Supervisor Brower-Because they do not have water. Unknown-My second question, on the thirty four cents a mile, is this a standard thing that communities pay, State pays, Federal pays? Supervisor Brower-Federal reimbursement rate. Unknown-Because I know the company I was in never paid that much. Supervisor Brower-I believe the County pays it to. Comptroller Hess-It is an IRS rate that changes every year this year it is thirty four and a half cents. Councilman Brewer-Last year it was thirty two or something. Comptroller Hess-Thirty two cents. Unknown-I used to work for a pretty big company, I know you are putting it off, well sixty vehicles god we need them and everything is honky dory but I worked for a real big company that did service for people every minute of every hour and I do not think that they had sixty vehicles including construction vehicles. I mean we had a lot of heavy equipment. So, I am just, you know, I am just saying you put it off like it is something. Councilman Martin-That's what I want to make sure people understand, this is not just you know big sport utility luxury vehicles that sit out there just because we have no where else to place the money. These vehicles are being used to supply the service that the people demanded. If you want building inspections to start occurring you know with three or four days advance notice on a concrete pour then fine but if you want building inspections to be able to call in, radio out to a guy in a truck and have them there within sixty minutes that is another level of service. To supply that level of service require different types of equipment. Unknown-How many building inspectors do you have? Councilman Martin-Three Each one has a truck, pickup truck. Mr. Pliney Tucker-And I can vouch that they sometimes make it and sometimes they don't. Councilman Brewer-They are right out straight all the time. I mean the animal control officer, you call up there is a mad dog in your back yard, you do not wait until tomorrow and have somebody come up that is just an example. Unknown-Yea, I know. Councilman Brewer-that person Unknown-I just had to laugh because I have been a resident of the town for fifty years and I have never had them in my yard, so, I do not know what you are talking about. Mr. Pliney Tucker-You know, Nick has a good idea, if we can get the paper to print the end result. Unknown-I would like to see where you are using these vehicles. I am serious I work for a big company and I am going to tell you we didn't have the vehicles you guys got. Councilman Brewer-Well everybody that has that perception that they are all cars Nick, Unknown-No, I am talking about heavy equipment, ..we had a lot of trucks, I am telling you I just looked through my mind, I bet you, I have been retired ten years, but I would bet you, you would have a tough time saying they have got sixty vehicles. Supervisor Brower-Well, when that article first came out I sat there and said sixty vehicles, I called Henry up and said Henry, I need, I want you to do an inventory on these vehicles because I do not know where sixty vehicles are. Mr. Pliney Tucker-This guy right here is in charge of Building and Grounds he does not have a car. Supervisor Brower-I have been around the town and I have not seen that many. Mr. Pliney Tucker-He does not have a car period. Unknown-I am just saying there has got to be realism to everything and I do not know what it is but I mean, because I am just a little no body but I am just curious. Former Highway Supt. Paul Naylor-You need to hire an equipment superintendent to make your decisions for you is what you need to do. Somebody that has expertise in it. You started with this girl but she didn't have the expertise. It was the right track but the wrong railroad. You need somebody who knows what the hell they are talking about number one. Number two, don't take my money for those sidewalks no more or I am coming after you. That is a special district and I do not have sidewalks in my end of town so don't take my money to pay them bills to the Highway guy for doing those sidewalks because that is my money. Right. Supervisor Brower-We already paid hirn. Former Highway Supt. Naylor-If you do not believe me call the Attorney General he will tell you, because I did once, that is the way it goes. You order it done you better pay it. Councilman Martin-That is a whole other thing to be really irritated about. Don't get started in on that one. Councilman Brewer- Lets save that one for next week. I have two of them here tonight writing they will have enough to write for a week. Former Highway Supt. Naylor-Give them a little more then they won't have so much trouble. Supervisor Brower-That is in order but it is probably a subject that we could talk about briefly, because...... 2.2 NORTH QUEENSBURY SEWER UPDATE Councilman James Martin-Dennis and I met with Bill Lamy and several representatives of O'Brien and Gere who are our engineer on the North Queensbury Sewer Project, here one day. I had to give O'Brien and Gere credit they were very up to date on everything and they had a lot of answers and they were very opened minded as we approached the discussion. First of all I know Bob and Mark are off investigating where we are at in the SEQRA process with that and things like that and I still would like to get that update, too from you. Town Counsel Bob Hafner-I will have that to you next Monday. Councilman James Martin-That is fine. Town Counsel Hafner-The Seqra and the North Queensbury. Councilman Martin-According to Bill Lamy the County is the lead agent he gave us a little historical background to start, we started on this in 94' with the first EIS from Clough Harbor. There was a supplemental done and I think even another supplemental was underway or was it that some one, I cannot remember that aspect of it but any how the supplemental was very nearly compete. They were about ten days away from issuing a final, oh, no a draft, supplemental environmental impact statement on the idea of a discharge to what was it, brook up there, Dick the one that goes into Washington County? Unknown-Factory Brook. Councilman Martin-Factory Brook, that was going to be the alternative and then as everybody knows the law suits came and away we went. So, in the interim since then the other projects in the other communities have proceeded, they started the work on Hague, Bolton and Lake George. We had a twenty million dollar grant it is estimated that, rather than Queensbury share being thirteen million it will probably going to be in the ten million dollar range after all that is said and done, because of all those other projects are going to take up that three million. So, we will have ten million dollars to proceed with ours on. We talked about where we should jump into the process in terms of taking up this subject. I think the general consensus was that we start with a scoping document and have that document be developed in a public process likely a meeting to be held. I would speaking for me, I would assume it would be at the North Queensbury Fire House and we talked about the timing of that to occur in early sumer so we do catch the benefit of the seasonal folks up there. Then we started we had a long discussion about well, you know as a early indication of ..what should we explain to them some of the options that are being considered. We went on to a lengthy discussion one that I precipitated regarding this idea of a so called, what was the term they used? Supervisor Brower-In basin district. Councilman Martin-No, the management district, they had a decentralized system vs a centralized system. Ralph was there, I am sorry Ralph. Anyhow Ralph was there. We got into a lengthy discussion about the and Mike Shaw was there too, I am going around the table now seeing the faces. We got into a lengthy discussion about that and that was never assumed to really be taken seriously and the way that was talked about was the idea of keeping things as much as we can up there. Really the way they are, with those sights that have or those individual houses that have compliant septic systems would be allowed to keep them and those instances where you need to go to an alternate septic system or maybe even a holding tank that would be done. Investigate the idea that maybe the district then managing those systems for you by pumping them out every three years, pumping out the tanks and pumping out the holding tanks as needed. Obviously, that would be at a greater frequency and you know, ways the district could wor in that regard. Because apparently something like that in terms of capital expenses anyhow could be paid for out of the grant. The grant cannot pay for operation and maintenance in either regard. So, we went on a lengthy discussion about that and that will be now a real option considered as we move forward in the scoping. That will be one of the lists then it will be at a parallel, you know, stand, an equal footing. We talked a little bit about central system, the various things that went into that, connecting over to Lake George, connecting down to Glens Falls, then a couple other options, the spring on the golf course, the Factory Brook was talked about. They posted the question to us if you had your druthers between connecting to the Lake George plant or running to Glens Falls, they asked Dennis and I both how we felt about that just initially anyhow, us individually. I indicated I think Dennis was wanting to look at, you can speak for your self obviously, but, you want to see how all the things weigted out but, I thought connecting to Glens Falls made the most sense because from a planning point of view bring the pipe down Bay Road and finally sewering that corridor that had been so long talked about would be a by product of that. However, the project, this project would only probably they thought EP A would only pay to the corner here, right here at Bay and Blind Rock and then the Town would be responsible for that cost from there down to connecting into the City. So, that one, all those ideas, all those alternative options will be on the table and scoped and reviewed in the draft supplemental. Then we will go back with a draft supplemental impact statement, we will go through all that SEQRA process find the document to be complete, there will be a comment period as mandated and then we will go off on final supplemental impact statement will be written and it will go the course. As I rate things out I just cannot help but feel that this decentralized system as they call it, management district is relly, is at least be worthy of a full investigation and see how that goes. Given the profile of the area up there, we are talking about roughly seven hundred and fifty properties, very few of them are commercial. I just don't we are not like the other communities along the lake that are part of this grant we don't have large dense commercial area or things like that. We have a relatively quantified situation up there. The land use pattern is set, basically residential and I cannot help but feel that type of approach would be beneficial and the other thing about it is I think that approach in and of itself would have a like a growth control to it and not be a growth inducement. I do not think we are ever going to see the day where you have condo's and casino's go up on the shores of North Queensbury but I do think you will be an acceleration and proliferation of larger single family homes, larger square footages, larger foot prints, if you go to a centralized system. If you want to a decentralized system byvirtue of the fact that you have to maintain an area in the yard for your septic discharge even that along would tend to keep the lid on that a little bit in terms of the size of the houses. So, that is all going to be Supervisor Brower-They did ask us one interesting question at the end they said if money were not an object, in other words if we could obtain more Federal dollars potentially which would you prefer, decentralized or centralized? Jim, I think chose decentralized and I chose centralized because I was concerned about the long term O&M cost which I thought would be less in a centralized system. Any yet, we both see advantages of a decentralized system with limited funds where you cannot get more money, because we can probably have greater impact on the lake without going to a centralized system. I do not think that we can do a centralized system without getting more dollars to complete it. Councilman Martin-They are saying now that if the impression I came away with that it might be as much as seventeen million dollars if not more for a centralized system. Ralph was posed that same question and you know, he can obviously speak for himself too, but he I think liked the centralized system from his perspective due to the O&M costs associated with a decentralized. The only thing I will say about the centralized system though the concern I have is, I do not think the average person up there in North Queensbury is fully understanding of the impacts that will come with a centralized system and installing it. When you talk about extending laterals and lines out to service all those houses along that shore line all those little finger type roads that extend down to the shore line the trees that would have to be removed, the pavement that would be torn up, and they did say before they stopped the work before they did what they called ground penetrating radar, GPR, and they did find a lot of bed rock an they are not sure as to the content of that rock whether it is something that is rip-able in other words they can with a machine you know dig it out or they have to blast. You start talking about blasting this is not something where you can put the blasting trench two hundred feet away from somebody's house and put the shields up and all of that. You are going to have blasting in some instances within a few feet of residences up there I think. I just cannot imagine how you can do that. Supervisor Brower-Ralph, did you have any comment because Water/wastewater Supt. VanDusen-No, that was very thorough. Supervisor Brower-Very good explanation. They did emphasize though sure we rip it up once but then it is there for twenty five years. Councilman Martin-There are advantages to both but the main thing is I think we are going to have an open process an inclusive process that will really start in eamest in like mid June when the population is back up there. They are going to go off now and prepare for that first public meeting in mid June. Supervisor Brower-I think the best news is that work is proceeding with up grading Lake George sewer system, the Bolton sewer system and Hague is getting under construction, so the County finally is able to at least positive impact on the lake over all, fairly soon, which is very encouraging. Councilman Martin-The other option that we did talk about that they will put on the table the other option, I should say that was kind of no, is they will put out although it will require a change in what is called the Lake George law, it is a State law that does not allow for discharge into a surface water. We would like to have that put back on as an option and it is this idea of wetland treatments in the, using the Dunhams Bay wetland as a filtering source for treated effluent discharge. That will be on the table although the liability with it obviously is that you have to have an act of the legislature to change that State law. Water/wastewater Supt. VanDusen-Two things came to mind, when we were talking to them one was the out of basin discharge issue that has to be resolved if we go to the City of Glens Falls for treatment and the other one was this was a long ways down the road but once a final option is selected the discussion was pros and cons of having a referendum where, politically do you want to have a referendum or not and the over all consensus was yes, once they come up with a recommended solution that there probably would be a referendurn. Councilman Martin-To put it before the voters for the cost. Mr. Pliney Tucker-Anybody brave enough to ask how long to get to the construction point? Councilman Martin-Well, gees Pliney, I would think you know, the SEQRA process on this alone will extend I would imagine if we start this sununer I would say it would extend probably to the later point of 2002. So, you might be to a, depending on what is selected if you have got design and build and construction drawings and... Mr. Pliney Tucker-You are looking at five years then, aren't you. Councilman Martin-I would say if that were, you would be looking at maybe a spring 2004 breaking ground. It depends on what is chosen, I do not know, maybe a decentralized system could come to pass sooner than that, I do not know. That is just an estimate on my part. I do notice, I feel pretty comfortable with the SEQRA estimate though I think it will be a good year, year and a half working your way through findings statement. Water/wastewater Supt.VanDusen-Assuming there are no lawsuits. Councilman Martin-Yea, exactly. That is just letting the process go its. Mr. Pliney Tucker-Is any of the stuff that they have done already going to be usable? Councilman Martin-Yes. Where they, there is a wealth of good information that came out of that is still relevant from that Clough Harbor report or initial EIS, and there is a lot of information that came from ...investigations that were done to the supplemental. We have a lot of good information readily available in the building department about the condition of a lot of systems up there. So, there is a lot of information in place or it can be easily accessed, so that will be good. Supervisor Brower-Thank you, Jim. Anything else to come before the Board this evening? Councilman Brewer-Yes, did you happen to get a date for me with the City? Supervisor Brower-No, the Mayor was out, on vacation last week. Councilman Brewer-Is he back? Supervisor Brower-He is back now. Councilman Brewer-Well you get a hold of him please. Supervisor Brower-Yes. Mr. Pliney Tucker-You mean he was not here for the tournament? Supervisor Brower-No. Not that I know of. Unless he snuck in Saturday night. Unknown-He will not be back until Thursday. Supervisor Brower-He is not back until Thursday. Really, they told me he was away last week so I just assumed that he would be back today. Councilman Brewer-One more thing. Can we the Drellos Brothers have a proposal that I showed everybody it is one option out of any amount of options that we want to choose, whether we want to look at that option, whether we want to look at AMG, I would like to take a step forward and say, lets do something or do nothing. Councilman Martin-I am thinking of closure. Councilman Brewer-Exactly. Either we have got to have a building over there with the presents for ten trucks or twelve trucks or whatever the need is, lets find out what it is and lets do it or lets not just leave it hanging in the air somewhere. I think at this point Rick was going to come back to us with some kind of a report as to the building. I would like to take or have somebody ask somebody from OSHA or whomever to get in that building and say this is what it needs if you want to come in there tomorrow if we were to buy it, this, this, this, this and this, and how much so we know the true value of the building or the true cost of the building. Councilman Martin-I agree. Councilman Turner-I thought we were going to do that we where going to have somebody look at the internal... Councilman Brewer-I know that Charlie York does that, he did it for our company he works for the State and they will come in and look at a building and he came around our store and said this is what you guys got to have to be in compliance, you will have to agree to do it. In this case I would say that we wouldn't have to agree to do because we do not own the building. Former Councilman Richard Merrill-Could I suggest an environmental assessment of the land. Councilman Brewer-Yes, we have that. Supervisor Brower-It had been suggested. Former Councilman Merrill-That has been done. Councilman Brewer-Yes, it has. Unknown-Phase I Councilman Brewer-Yes. Supervisor Brower-Well, I find it, I will be frank with you I, this has a low priority on my priority list Councilman Brewer-I understand that. Supervisor Brower-for capital spending. So, I really have not been excited about the concept at all. The thing that I thought we should pursue might be if you really need to get a jump start on the west side you build a little pole bam at the Water Plant or at our pit there at Big Bay and you get a little jump start with two or three trucks and out you go. Councilman Brewer-I just want to decide what we are going to do, if we are not going to do this as a capital improvement then lets not do it, but lets not leave it hanging. We started the discussion and lets end it. Councilman Martin-The other thing, this might bring to bear too, is remember we talked, you and I talked about the option of you known, depending on what is done maybe the property on Big Boom can go up for sale and we can get a real return on that as industrial property. Councilman Brewer-Exactly. Councilman Martin-There are four or five acres there. Councilman Brewer-There are seven there. Councilman Martin-You put seven acres back into industrial zoning and it is very viable as a matter of fact we have even had purchase offers on it. Supervisor Brower-On the Big Boom property. Councilman Brewer-On the Big Boom Road property yes. Councilman Martin-You want to talk about building your tax base. Supervisor Brower-How much property is there? Councilman Brewer-Seven acres, isn't there Paul, give or take seven acres? Former Highway Supt. Naylor-Big Bay, Seven acres... Councilman Martin-So, depending on what you do that is prime industrial space, you want to talk about building your tax base, depending on what we do that is another option in the mix. Councilman Brewer-I just would like to give Rick and answer I think it is, he came to us with a proposal we ought to at least give him an answer, yes or no or lets look at the options we have and say, if we need ten trucks over there lets put up a building that will house ten or twelve trucks, a small office and a bathroom and a lunch room and then we have got that. If we want to have somebody else build it and we can lease it or what do we want to do. Councilman Martin-Or we do not want anything but I think we owe him an answer. Councilman Brewer-Exactly. Supervisor Brower-I guess the question is, is it something, is it something that is really pressing the town, I do not see it. Councilman Martin-The only thing that has been the motivation for me Dennis is that we have, that building is on the market, it is for sale it is opportunity in time. Councilman Brewer-I do not necessarily agree that, that has to be the building though. Councilman Martin-But I am saying Tim, at least the presence of that there is the motivation for me and that is what pushes it up the list for me. Councilman Brewer-Lets say, Rick, we are going to either, we are going to do nothing, and lets stop taking about it or we are going to do something and that is my position, I want to do something. I am not saying that we should buy a building or build a building I am saying we either make a decision as to what we are going to do I guess is what I am saying. Supervisor Brower-You guys know my position on it, I do not know if Ted is along, you seem to like the idea. Councilman Turner-I like it to an extent, to an extent. Supervisor Brower-To an extent. Councilman Brewer-Lets get Rick in here and all the players and say Rick is this really going.. Supervisor Brower-Seems like a no to me...J like that within a reasonable doubt.... Councilman Martin-Capital Plan Comptroller Hess-I am sitting back waiting for some, for the Board to have a workshop on prioritizing Councilman Martin-Can we get that on our next agenda then if you want to talk about priority issues. Supervisor Brower-I think that would be a good time. Councilman Brewer-For the next workshop? Can we do the same g thing with Rick next time too. Councilman Martin-Put that on there, Supervisor Brower-Yes. Councilman Martin-Because that is part of the Capital plan discussion anyhow. Supervisor Brower-See, that's, I guess that is my bone of contention is that of all the things that we have got on that list it was very low on my priority list. I thought it should be on there but I did not think it was a crucial thing for the Town right now. Councilman Brewer-I think it does a number of things Dennis, if we need room for this building for expansion for the Planning for the Building and Grounds for the whatever, we have how many thousand dollars was it allocated to put a storage building up or whatever, do we need office space. That all ties together if Rick moves part of his office out of there we have room right next door with a building. Councilman Martin-Those are the factors to consider Councilman Brewer-So, it is not just putting the Highway Department there. Supervisor Brower-But there is also factors of controlling the growth of the town too, trying not to add, trying to avoid hiring as many new people as possible. Councilman Brewer-This does not hire anybody new. Supervisor Brower-No, but its, I think it is a mental mind set. You know what I am saying. Councilman Brewer-No, I do not. Supervisor Brower-Well, you are saying we need more room, someone just said that, we need more room, we need more and more office space. Councilman Brewer-I said do, we, I did not say we did, I said do we. Councilman Turner-We just talked about it right here. Councilman Brewer-You go down to the Planning Office they are cramped. Councilman Martin-Needs assessment. Supervisor Brower-So, is the library, the library is cramped. Councilman Martin-I think there are many factors that are connected here Dennis and the fact that yes, it does open up office space over in that building, there is an opportunity maybe to sell some surplus valuable industrial property and get it back on the tax role as vacant land. These are all ancillary issues that are going into play here that have meaning, that have value. You, know is it the right time to jump maybe it is not, if it is not then fine. But lets bring it to closure. I mean, we have an opportunity before us lets explore it in a diligent manner and if it doesn't then we move onto the next issue. Councilman Brewer-That is all I ask. If we are not going to do it that is fine with me. But, if we are going to do it lets do it, that is all I am asking. Councilman Martin-It does not look good for anybody just to broach an issue and then just leave it out there in space and it is hanging around like a spider. Councilman Brewer-So, the 9th we will have all the parties involved and we will make a decision on whether we will move forward or not. Henry did we ever come up with any kind of a needs assessment? Comptroller Hess-It never, Rick never asked for one I guess. Chris has been really wanting to get that done, ...it is his initiative and I support it, but no we have never taken any action on it. Councilman Brewer-How much does that cost to have it done? Comptroller Hess-He has projected, anywhere depending on the scope you want and I have not done any estimates on it but he projects that it could cost anywhere from five to fifty thousand dollars, I do not think.. Councilman Martin-It depends on how you want to scope it. Depending, what we are looking for here is an initial inquiry up to five thousand. Comptroller Hess-I would tend to think Councilman Brewer-Why does it have to cost that much? Councilman Martin-Who usually does these things is architects, you know, and they have space and demand scenarios and they will go around and talk to department heads and they are going to talk to us and you will get a report. Comptroller Hess-It is time intensive. Councilman Martin-Yes. Supervisor Brower-And depending on the architect you hire it depends on the cost perimeters they use, you know, some of them use real fancy furniture. Councilman Martin-That is what the library went through this last time. Councilman Brewer-Can't we get some, somebody that is reasonable that could come in here and give us a fair assessment of what we need for under five thousand dollars? Comptroller Hess-If you turn Chris loose on it he will find somebody. Councilman Brewer-Well then lets do that. Councilman Martin-..scope it... Councilman Brewer-Tell him to get a price on how much it will cost for Monday. Councilman Martin-The worst thing you can do and I am one, don't go to a consultant and say what do you think we ought to do, never you always do with a defined.. Councilman Brewer-I bet it you tell him tomorrow morning, Chris see if you can get a price for Monday night... Supervisor Brower-Thank you gentlemen for a lively discussion, at this point in time I would like to ask the Board to convene in executive session to discuss a personnel matter, if that's appropriate I will RESOLUTION CALLING FOR EXECUTIVE SESSION RESOLUTION NO. 148,2001 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. James Martin WHO MOVED FOR ITS ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mr. Theodore Turner RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby moves into Executive Session to discuss a personnel matter. Duly adopted this 26th day of March, 2001 by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Martin, Mr. Turner, Mr. Brewer, Mr. Brower NOES: None ABSENT: Mr. Stec (No action taken) RESOLUTION ADJOURNING MEETING RESOLUTION NO. 149,2001 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. Turner WHO MOVED FOR ITS ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mr. Martin RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury adjourns its Executive Session and adjourns it Special meeting. Duly adopted this 26th day of March, 2001 by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Turner, Mr. Brewer, Mr. Martin, Mr. Brower NOES: None ABSENT: Mr. Stec Respectfully, Miss Darleen M. Dougher Town Clerk-Queensbury