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2003-03-13 SP SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING MARCH 13TH, 2003 MTG#13 RES#169 6:35 P.M. BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT SUPERVISOR DENNIS BROWER COUNCILMAN ROGER BOOR COUNCILMAN THEODORE TURNER COUNCILMAN DANIEL STEC COUNCILMAN TIM BREWER TOWN OFFICIALS COMPTROLLER, HENRY HESS BAY RIDGE FIRE COMPANY BAY RIDGE FIRE COMPANY OFFICIALS PRESENT -CHIP MELLON, CHUCK MELLON, AND RUSS CHATHAM Supervisor Brower-We understand you had problems with the new Bay Ridge Firehouse; you are here to brief the board on your concerns on what's going on. Russ Chatham- Really thinks there is not an awful lot to say you have everything in front of you black and white. Supervisor Brower-My understanding the main problems are the boiler kicking out on a regular basis. All three boilers don't run at the same time is that correct. Mr. Chatham-The problem as stated from Northern Mechanical the fuel delivery appears to be the primary problem. The cold gels up the fuel restrict it from coming in. There are several leaks in the system because of the black piping that was used. There are plumbers that say that it shouldn't have been used then there are plumbers that say it can be used. The problem is with that many excesses for air to penetrate the elbows and all those that are on there threaded pipe leaks. As soon as those boilers get no fuel or they get air they are designed to shut down. We've had several shtdowns throughout the winter and the remedy is to get fuel inside the building with some kind of auxiliary tank so that it can be warmed up and it could flow freely to the boilers. Supervisor Brower-you thought that was necessary early on but he assured you it wasn't? Mr. Chatham-Early on Tri Valley said they didn't believe it was going to work. Councilman Boor- Tri Valley is who? Mr. Chatham-They are the mechanical contractors. Then Jones Associates put together a proposal to put a supplementary tank inside of the basement to do exactly what we are talking about presented us with the bill it was going to be an add on and we said no. Councilman Brewer-How much was that add on? Mr. Chatham-I believe it was approximately eighty two hundred dollars. Councilman Boor-what's the size of the tank? Mr. Chatham-they were looking at a smaller tank I don't think it was ten, twelve gallons just to get fuel in there so that the air problem would be eliminated. The problem is the boilers need six gallons an hour 0 operate. Councilman Boor-Still the margins aren't good there. Mr. Chatham-when you've got one boiler running you are probably okay the colder it gets one fires, two fires, in the dead of winter three are firing at six gallons an hour that's not practical. Supervisor Brower-How big is the tank that's buried in the ground? Mr. Chatham-The fuel capacity just for the boiler is twenty-five. Councilman Boor-I understand from our previous conversation that's a half inch line. Mr. Chatham-In all fairness in accordance with the manufacturer of the pump that they put in the manufacturer say that you can pump up to a hundred and seventy-five feet in an half inch line. Councilman Boor-What temperature? Mr. Chatham-They don't get into that. Councilman Boor-That's why you hire an engineer, right? Supervisor Brower-Do you have a twenty-five hundred gallon tank in the ground outside? Mr. Chatham-Yeah, a hundred and seventy five feet away. Supervisor Brower-What remedies are practical? Do you have a basement? r. Chatham-We have a basement quite frankly it's filled up with mechanical equipment. Supervisor Brower-Is there room for a tank? Mr. Chatham-There is to put two hundred and seventy five gallons is what Northern is suggesting I don't know if that's a safe situation to be putting a two hundred and seventy-five gallon tank. Councilman Brewer-Remember when they built the building Dennis they down sized the cellar so they could just fit the mechanical equipment that you needed in there to begin with. Mr. Chatham-That's like a coffin down there you close that up which now we're leaving the doors open which is not what it should be if the building was to have a fire those doors are suppose to be shut. Councilman Boor-Is that temperature concern is why you are leaving it opened? Mr. Chatham-Yeah. If you turn off the fresh air, which brings the temperature down to the mid twenties, then everything will freeze up no one thought about any auxiliary heat for the basement no one thought about winter as being cold when you bring outside air in you are bringing in what is ever out there. We turned off the fan that's a problem because the boilers need air so now you soot up the boilers and you gum them up so you turn them on and then you freeze everything. Councilman Brewer-Originally was the tank placed whereit is today? Mr. Chatham-In the specs the tank was going next to the building. Councilman Brewer-Who authorized the change? Mr. Chatham-Every week we had a construction meeting and one meeting Mr. Jones had a gentlemen there that went through a proposal that put in this one tank. It all sounded good I sat there and I said, Dick you are the architect will this work and he said, yeah. I said this would not cost us any more money he said no. I said if you think this is going to work you are the architect quite frankly none of us thought about the distance. Councilman Brewer-Why all of a sudden would he move it? Chip Mellon-In part we went to one giant compartment part of it carries the diesel fuel part of it's the oil for heating. Councilman Boor-Centrally located. Mr. Mellon-Centrally located it's hooked up to a monitoring system inside the building that tells us if there is any moisture, water in it, what the temperature is, if there are any leaks or anything. That was in part why we thought it was good idea to change as Russ said it was the architects thought it would work. Mr. Chatham-Who really thought we were getting more for the same the amount of money because it had all the bells and whistles. Again, no one said it was a hundred and seventy five feet none of us knew that and maybe Mr. Jones didn't know at the time, I don't know. The problem is when it got to the end it was difficult towards the end they had some problems...they were relieving people so basically we never really got a good shakedown of any of the systems plus the fact it was like summer. The heating system needs to be adjusted. The floor heating needs some adjustment, which is not a big thing to tune it up, but they never did it. We knew the first year we were going to have to play with it because radiant heat is tricky. You find a comfortable setting it's not traditionally going over to turn it to seventy. We've had the opportunity to figure it out we figured it out it's not set properly so it needs to be adjusted which tat is not a major.... Councilman Boor-Is there any ability to put another zone on this thing and have it in to this mechanical room? Mr. Chatham-You could put heat down there no problem because obliviously it's a hot water system you could throw just some radiant baseboard. Councilman Boor-I'm just trying to think of I don't know how this is going to resolve with the next person coming in I'm also concerned about when you shut the door or vice versa that's ridiculous. Mr. Mellon-The bottom line it's a fire hazard by operating the way we are which is keeping the fire doors open. None of us are in favor of doing it, but at the same time we can't take a chance to freeze all the pipes up in the building. We have to do whatever we can to try to baby this system through the winter. Supervisor Brower-Some of the furnaces run they alternate is that's the way they were designed? Mr. Chatham-You'll end up with all three running or end with two running this is what happened to Central. Central put in the big monser boiler whether it's thirty out or thirty below that whole thing is running. This is more cost efficient when it runs properly it's really a good system, but we have spent a lot of money and I can't even tell you how much because no one has billed us yet. We've had three different plumbers in there they are feel sorry for us and want to help us. Councilman Boor-There is a lot of other small stuff. Mr. Chatham-The small stuff is incidental, but the small stuff if you don't set them up properly and there is not the right air flow it creates all these other problems the fuel problem just increased the whole problem all together. When we didn't have fuel problem we would have had minor problems that we would of tweaked throughout this winter, but the fuel problem is a major situation. Supervisor Brower-When you've blown a couple of baffles out of your furnace when you replace those is that an inexpensive thing? Mr. Chatham-Not to bad. When it happened the second time Tri Valley came back and did all tha work. They also put in a large fourth damper because there is too much air coming down the chinmey. Utica calls for a twelve inch chinmey they put a fourteen inch some will argue that the more air you have its not a problem. It's not a problem if you have it it's a problem if you don't control it. With the flues they put in they didn't control the air. Supervisor Brower-Is that a regular chinmey flue? Mr. Chatham-It's dampers that are on the back on each chinmey flue going up into the main chinmey so they put a damper on each system. When one boiler ran all three dampers opened which is telling you it's starving itself because they restricted the flow even though they went with a bigger line there was problems why they went with fourteen I don't know. The first thing that Dick asked for was the specs on Utica and he specked the whole thing around Utica boilers we don' know why they put a fourteen in. Supervisor Brower-They are Utica boilers? Mr. Chatham-Yeah, they are our boilers we got them from Sawyers they are good boilers. This was ironic because the standard chinmey is twelve inch an we wanted this is what put the heated project for the fourteenth it was a special order. Supervisor Brower- Can you put a chinmey inside the fourteen the twelve inch inside it? Mr. Chatham-It's not really necessary we put that other damper on which Ti Valley did it at their cost they obviously recognized the fact that it was a problem. Supervisor Brower-Have you been getting any better consistency at all in the performance or are you still real concern? Mr. Chatham-As soon as it gets extremely cold it goes out or when air develops in it. Northern put a clear flexible tubing on the fuel line with the pressure gage so now when it goes out you can actually see the air in the plastic line. That's why they have been up there so much they wanted to make sure that what they said is what it is. They were there today and are on there way up there now because one of the boilers the pump went and the cup ling went. They go because they are under stress because they are trying to pull the fuel in. Councilman Boor! still go back to this hundred and seventy five feet of half inch line with climate like this it's like pulling tar with a straw. Councilman Brewer-Another thing that's mentioned in this letter is it's not deep enough would putting the pipe in the proper depth would it help? Mr. Chatham-What really should have been according to a lot of other people it should have been a two-line system. It should have been a return line then you would push whatever is left so there would be nothing in the line. At least if it was returning back into the tank you'd have an empty line nothing to freeze. We're getting water coming through the conduit for the electrical stuff who knows if there wasn't water in the conduit for the fuel line and its frozen. Councilman Boor-I still have a problem with the fact they used threaded pipe. Mr. Mellon-The black iron is not all the way out just to clarify they have some type of flexible tubing that is outside. This is where it comes inside into the basement from there they went back iron it looks nice but is not practical. Supervisor Brower-The other main problem you've run into you had a freeze up on your septic line? Mr. Chatham-A couple times. Supervisor Brower-Where you had to un-thaw it because it iced it wasn't deep enough or didn't have enough fill over it? Mr. Chatham-This is debatable because when we asked the septic guys they told Chip it's happening allover. When we do heat systems we do them based on twenty below zero. Mr. Mellon- Part of the problem is that this also goes out to the parking lot. It's not in a place where the snow would insulate it. Councilman Boor-I wonder if because it's a fairly new system you don't have a lot of bacteria. Mr. Mellon-They did tell us that. The other question we have if you are suppose to pump out your tank every two or three years are we going to have the same problem when we do it then? Councilman Brewer- If the system is working it will work for many years. Councilman Turner-The discharge line from the building is freezingup? Mr. Mellon-It's going into the septic tank it's freezing from the line into the tank freezing at the tank then freezing into the line from the tank to the D box. Councilman Turner-It's not deep enough. Mr. Mellon-I talked to Dennis from IBS they told me they've seen other systems the same way with no problem. Mr. Chatham-We do know this with our problem with the runoff, which is the reason we need the gutters. All winter our parking lot was basically an ice rink if nothing else we drove the cold down into the ground. Supervisor Brower-Do you guys think gutters should have been on the building? Mr. Chatham-No, Mother Nature is telling us we need gutters. Mr. Mellon-There is ice build up when its running off the roof you try to keep it when it melts we put salt down it's hard to keep up with it. There is another issue on the gable ends of the roof over the apparatus bays where the roof comes out from the gutters. The gutters in the apparatus bay are built into the roof then there are the dormers tht come out from there they put some diverters in line you can look up and see where the diverter comes off the gable into the other gutter you can see the gaps there we have about a six or eight inch buildup. Supervisor Brower- Questioned if an Executive Session can be called to discuss situations with Bay Ridge Fire Company building? Mr. Hess-I don't know any reason that would fall under that. Supervisor Brower-I don't think it is if it was legal to do it we would be more than willing to do it I don't think it's legal to do it in Executive Session. Dick Jones, Architect-Basically, I think the last contact we had from Bay Ridge Fire Company was the week ending July 31, when we were finishing up punch lists. The next contact that we had was after your phone call to me I believe on the ninetieth of November we actually contacted the Fire Company at that point to ask what some of these problems were. The day that I spoke to you on the phone you asked me three things. If I knew they were having trouble backing fire trucks up into the building, which I didn't. Did I know of the ice buildup at the doors, which I didn't. I don't remember what the third one was I didn't know about that either. There are other thins that had been issues and I did know about those didn't appreciate the comment you made in a public meeting and went on the record in reference to calling Russ and having him say that basically I knew of all these problems because I didn't. If I had known about them we would have been there to address them. Supervisor Brower-You are saying that much of what was on the list that we received and you received was news to you? Mr. Jones-Yes it was. Several items on there we had known about and had been addressed at various times. There were many items on the list that we didn't even know they were having a problem with. Many items on that list are warranty items that contractors should be addressing. The Certificate of Substantial Completion for that building was dated March 27th of last year. If they haven't contacted the contractors within the first year in reference to that and they should be doing that in writing they are not going to get them repaired by the contractor. I don't know what they've ben doing with the contractors as far as contact I hope they have been doing it in writing that's what we normally tell out clients to do. I've seen no correspondence from the fire company to the contractors we haven't been copied on that. Supervisor Brower-Russ do you have any response? Mr. Chatham-Seeing Dick is only going to say what is privilege for him to say because he doesn't want to talk in this open meeting I don't know how I can respond to anything because I'm not going to get an answer. That man over there knows an awful lot I would think he has communicated that we've seen an awful lot in the last six months. Councilman Boor-For the record who are you? Dan Grant. Councilman Boor-How are you involved in this? Mr. Jones-He was the Construction Administration personnel from my office who was handling Bay Ridge Fire Company. Supervisor Brower-Dan were you aware of multiple problems relating to the project? Mr. Grant-I was one of the people that put together a punch list, which was pointed out 0 the contractor things that were incomplete as far as the contract. I also received most of the calls from Chip, Chuck, Russ, as far as problems they were having often times I would put that in a written form to be faxed to Tri Valley. Supervisor Brower-You were communicating with the contractors? Councilman Boor-You did this in writing. Mr. Grant -Most cases. Supervisor Brower-You didn't communicate with Mr. Jones? Mr. Grant-Sure. I also agree some of the things that are on this list is the first time I saw them. I was aware that they were having difficulties with boilers. Supervisor Brower-You are saying they have until the twenty- seventh to notify contractors if there is problems? Mr. Jones-If there is warranty work or items that they feel are not completed they need to make sure they have given written notification to the contractor within that first year period I don't know where they stand with that. We have done some notification in reference to some of these items as I said this is the firsttime I've seen them, we haven't done a notification and I don't know if they have. They indicated they have contacted people, but I don't know if it was in writing or not. They need to do that if they are going to protect their rights under their contract. They should be notifying Plank Construction that is the one they had the contract with. Councilman Brewer-Weren't you the lead person in this whole project? Mr. Jones-Our contract wasn't with Plank Construction their contract is with Plank Construction our contract was with Bay Ridge Fire Company. Supervisor Brower-You did the construction oversight, right? Mr. Jones-We did construction administration services under our contract. We did not provide construction management services there is a big difference. You had a general contractor who had a multitude of subs on that project. Councilman Boor-The specifications came from who the general contractor or the engineer or architect? Mr. Jones-We put together the package that's another thing part ofte equipment for the building was pre-purchased through I.E. Sawyers. There were a multitude of items that were supplied to the contractor for installation. Councilman Boor-At whose specs? Mr. Jones-We spec the material the provided material and the contractors provided material. Councilman Boor-Above and beyond material I would expect engineered the functioning of the material as it relates....Mr. Jones-We did a specification a detail how it would be installed that's correct. Councilman Boor-And if it would work if you do this will work? Mr. Jones-Yes, but let's back up there. The....under floor heating system was engineered by a supplier that provided the material to I.E. Sawyers we did not engineer that system. They provided all of the material they supplied the layout the contractor installed it. Mr. Chatham-What was the contractors suppose to do after he got the stuff? Mr. Jones-He was suppose to install it. Mr. Chatham-And make it work correct? Mr. Jones-It was suppose to be the primary heating source. Mr. Chatham-He was suppose to make sure it worked. Mr. Jones-If the contractor didn't make it work he needs to come back and make it work I'm not faulting yu with that at all. Mr. Jones-My name is the only name that came up with a multitude of other local suppliers. Councilman Boor-You we're saying that another engineer did the radiant heat not you. Mr. Jones-Whearsbow is the company that I.E. Sawyers bought the material from. Councilman Boor-Who engineered the radiant heat? Mr. Jones-The name of the company is Whearsbow. They designed the layout of the under floor with the flows and everything else. Councilman Boor-And all the exterior engineering as far as fuel tanks to building they did that engineering also? Mr. Jones-No they didn't. Councilman Boor-The radiant heat was done by this other company is it correct that your company engineered the tank for the building. Mr. Jones-It's not that simple. We engineered the original tank that was designed but it was not installed it was a substitution because the tank was combined by the contractor. Councilman Boor-Did you okay that? Mr. Jones-Yes. Councilman Boor-You didn't do any of the engineering of the equipment in the boiler room. Mr. Jones-Some of it was by our design and other by Whearsbow. Councilman Boor-There we're different engineers involved in the boiler room? Mr. Jones- Yes. Councilman Boor-We essentially had one engineer that did the radiant heat. We have you that did the exterior from the boiler to the building then we had multiple engineers design whatever went in the boiler room is that somewhat correct? Mr. Jones-It is somewhat correct but the sequence of events the building wing for the offices and the public areas of the building was designd with a base bid system they had split systems air handlers, we had three air handlers which were for heating and cooling. They had hot water coilers in them. It was an add alternate to go to the underflow heating system which we had gotten all the information from provided in the specifications so the contractor new exactly what he was providing as part of that alternate. The alternate stated that the Whearsbow under floor system would become the primary source of heat. The secondary source would be the air handlers and that's just how it was set up. The air handlers were designed for temperature control packages and each unit would have its own. Then we had central controls it was basically a variable air volume system so that there were thermostats in separate rooms that can control temperature rise for either heating or cooling that's the way it was set up. That's not necessarily the way it ended up. Councilman Brewer-There was conversation regarding the elevation of the building was changed for hatever reason? Mr. Jones-After we bid the project the contractor offered a fifteen thousand dollar credit to not....site by another foot. We had established an elevation for finish floor they were providing a cost savings to Bay Ridge Fire Company if we did not cut that additional foot. Councilman Brewer-Was that elevation okayed by you? Mr. Jones-We didn't change the grades the contractor came back with it and we monitored what he was doing. Councilman Brewer-We did not put an official stamp on it, no. Councilman Brewer-How can that change. Mr. Jones-The contractor offered it as a value engineering credit to the owner. Councilman Brewer-It's not built as you designed it. How can it be stamped? Mr. Jones-We didn't stamp it. The contractor provided an as built I believe to the owner for the site. Councilman Boor-You signed off on it then? Mr. Jones-We didn't sign off on it. Councilman Brewer-Then it's never been signed off on as a complete construction project? Mr. Jones-We have given it a Certficate of Substantial Completion that the owner has signed, the contractor has signed, and we have signed saying the project is complete. Councilman Brewer-What are we going to do to fix this what can we do? Mr. Jones-They could put in the day tank that we recommended for the boilers. We went through fourteen different scenarios of providing day tanks and they opted at that point not to do it because they felt it was excessive costs. The last time I think Dan talked to Chip a month ago maybe longer you were given an indication you thought that the day tank was going to be installed at that point. Mr. Grant-There was several times that we discussed it and I thought it was going to be installed. Councilman Boor-What is this going to fix? Mr. Jones-The oil flow for the underground tank to the boilers in the building. Councilman Boor-If it doesn't where are we at? Mr. Jones-It should rectify the problem. Supervisor Brower-One of the things that bothered me is item two; serious water leak in the main electrical generator transfer switching equipment. Mr. Jones-This is the first time I've seen this. If there are leaks in the conduit that's a warranty item for the contract. Mr. Mellon-We discussed this issue with you. Mr. Jones-Who did you contact at Plank Chip? Mr. Mellon-John Roth. Mr. Jones-Did you do it in writing? Mr. Mellon-Our plan is to we wanted to see what we could get resolved. I've got calls into them they've come back up a couple times. Part of the issue they had problems getting...back up he told us it was their issue because he was a subfor the electrical. Since then one of Plank representative came up looked at said he would give us an answer. Since then we had another problem where we had another conduit leaking. We basically stopped the water flow as best we could ourselves because we can't get anybody from Plank to respond left voice messages with John Roth. Ben came up from Plank about a month ago as a representative from Plank noting now he can't get a hold of anyone. Mr. Jones-It's a warranty item from the contractor. We didn't install the conduits the contractor is responsible under warranty thinks we have to find a way to get them to respond. Mr. Mellon-We're not pointing the blame on you on that issue Dick. This list we had to put down on paper the items that we had problems that we need to get resolved. Would like to make clear all these items are not directed at Richard Jones Associates, Tri Valley, and Plank Construction. There are different people that could be responsible for different issues. Mr. Jones-Bay Ridge Fie Company realizes if there is something you need from us we're there doesn't think there has ever been a question of that. Substantial Completion was last March by contract we're obligated to provide services sixty days after the Certificate of Substantial Completion. We provided services way to the end of July since the phone call from Dennis we called to find out what the problems were spent another twenty hours trying to resolve whatever we could. We don't charge for the services beyond the end of completion of the project because we live in the community. I did take personal front because I felt they were directed at my firm. A lot of them are contractor issues that if we were aware of we would have helped resolved, but some of them we are not even aware of. Mr. Chatham-Dick you are right on some things, but the primary problem that we have is the heat. I made it very clear to you that we were under a lot of pressure from the Town because the firehouse was not a popular subject we were also pressued from the Town not to exceed our budget. When you made the proposal that we had to put in the auxiliary tank my words to you were Dick when we came to the meeting and the gentlemen was there to sell us that twenty five hundred gallon tank he made his pitch and I directly looked at you and said is this going to work is it fine with you and you said, yes. My next breath was this will not cost us any more money and you said no. When you gave us that bill for eight thousand plus for that tank I then said Dick...Mr. Jones-It wasn't an eight thousand dollar plus. We have a file that is full with proposals. I think Plank had a proposal for fifty five hundred dollars we've got one down now to eight hundred dollars and nothing has still happened. In reference to the tank when you looked at me and said you didn't want it to cost any more money that was the underground tank we're talking about the pump. The pump was a separate item by the heating contractor that you supplied to him so one doesn't relate to the otero Mr. Chatham-I guess we exercised poor judgment by taking your word that it would be okay to relocated out there. Mr. Jones-No you didn't exercise poor judgment it was okay to relocate it out there but nobody looked at the pump inside the building because it was a separate entity by another contractor. It was a separate thing it was not part of the site work contract with that tank it was provided to the mechanical contractor for installation by him. Mr. Chatham-Am I missing something here, I guess we should of known that. Councilman Boor-It's unclear to me if this pump that was in there was there before or after. Mr. Jones-It wasn't there till after it was always there Russ because we needed it to be able to extract the oil and bring it in the building. Councilman Boor-It was there before the pump went outside? Mr. Jones-The pump was not installed when the tank was installed outside. The pump was installed after but it was part of the contract documents it was being supplied by Sawyers to the mecanical contractor for installation. The fuel delivery system was designed when we had a thousand gallon tank sitting outside of the foundation wall next to the building. You supplied the pump as part of the pre- purchase equipment to the mechanical contractor for installation. Councilman Boor-What about the hundred and seventy five feet? It sounds to me like when this was reengineered to go farther away I would of thought is the pump that's already here or already been purchased was going to be big enough to handle this. Mr. Jones-Nobody looked at because nobody thought about it. Councilman Brewer-Who approved it? Mr. Jones-We never got a shop drawing on it to review. Councilman Boor-How could you say the system would work? Mr. Jones-Because nobody looked at the pump we okayed the underground tank. Councilman Boor-A hundred and seventy five feet away. Councilman Brewer-I would like to see all us get these things straighten out. Mr. Jones-The pump that's there it was originally set up on a supply and a return I think now we only have a supply line. Councilman Boor-Who do you go to get a system engineered when you want to go a hundred and seventy five feet away. Mr. Jones-We came up with various pumps that would do it. Councilman Boor-Why weren't two lines put in? Mr. Jones-The pump manufacturer with the location of the pump felt that the single line was more appropriate. Councilman Boor-Then they are the ones that are liable for this issue? Mr. Jones-I don't think you can go back and make them liable. Councilman Boor-A hundred and sixty feet is a long way in a half-inch line. Mr. Jones- It's not the cold oil it's the fact that you have three burners running and it can't keep up with it. Councilman Boor-You can't push tar through that thing quick enough and get the quantity there. Mr. Jones-That's why we suggested the day tank inside the building. Councilman Boor-At what point? Mr. Jones-January of 2002. Councilman Brewer-How big was that day tank. Mr. Jones-There was various sizes we were looking at. We were looking at enough for whatever the requirements were at that point. We had prices from the contractor bearing from fifty five hundred dollars down to Iss than a thousand dollars. Councilman Brewer-The day tank may solve the problem but the line is going to have to be dug up and buried it's gone down further. Mr. Jones-You are pushing the oil from the tank to the day tank. The day tank then basically is a gravity feed I believe there is a pump on each burner it's going to pull the oil from the day tank. Councilman Brewer-You still have to get the oil from the tank outside to that day tank. Mr. Jones-I don't think there is an issue of doing that at forty degrees. The day tank is the solution to that problem. Councilman Brewer-The solution to the heating problem is you think if we spend five thousand dollars or whatever the number is will take care of it is there anyway to be sure of that. Mr. Jones-We've done day tanks in the past and they've worked. Councilman Brewer-Understood, can we be sure of it taking care of this problem? Mr. Jones-I would think that you could, yes. Supervisor Brower-Would it have the flow necessary to supply the three boiles? Mr. Jones-It will be sized for certain duration of time and have a certain capacity in the tank. As the flows goes down the pump will go on and push more oil out of the tank. Mr. Chatham-This was never an issue about Dick not telling us to do this. This is only an issue about the fact that we resented the fact that we had to pay for it because we felt that there was an error in not recognizing the fact that the fuel was going to have a hard time coming in, correct. Mr. Jones-That was your position it wasn't my position. Mr. Chatham-The position was we were going to be under scrutiny when the Town Board said to us why did you go over budget I told you on several occasions that I was going to have to tell them that's why we're all here. This all started because we had to ask the Town Board for twenty thousand dollars in our budget to do the gutters. None of this would have happened if we had not asked for the money for the gutters. The fact is from day one Tri Valley said the pump isn't going to wor and you assured us that it would work even though you said we should put in this day tank and we said adamantly we won't pay for that that's your problem you made a mistake you ultimately said the pump will work and we said okay. Mr. Jones-I didn't ultimately say the pump would work. When we did this project one of the add alternates was the under floor heating in the office area of the building. We designed a system with an overhead system basically for heating and cooling in that whole area. You decided to take the add alternate which added I think nine thousand dollars worth of material and I think the add for the contractor was in the neighborhood of eighteen thousand dollars so there is almost thirty thousand dollars that was added to the project for a duplication of system. Unknown-I believe we mentioned at a few meetings that there was a duplication of systems in that area under floor heating wasn't necessarily a good thing because of the heat it is in that type of space. Mr. Mellon-I think we have to make it clear if you want to make that comment then we have to go to the beginning of the project when we sat down and decided the Committee had a list of things we wanted we sat down with Richard Jones Associates one of the things that was brought up from the start if we're going to do radiant heat we're going to do radiant heat in the whole building. I was adamant about it because anybody including departments have it in front of their building said if you don't do the whole building you are crazy. With that said our original estimate was a million seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars. At that time, I said Dick don't you think we ought to go to the Town and ask for two million because there might be some add-ons or whatever, at that time you said no we're fine. As it turns out we're about four or five hundred thousand dollars from what we ended coming in from. My point is right from the start some the estimates may have been off, but we did tell you from the start what we wanted as far as pricing. Mr. Jones-We did price the under floor as an alternate which gave you an opportunity to save thirty thousand dollars in budget moey if you didn't take it because the other system was designed as the primary source of heat. When we took the alternate the under floor became the primary source of heat. If it's creating problems it's probably because it has not been balanced. Mr. Mellon-That's true. Mr. Jones- We don't know what the designs flows are suppose to be because I don't think Whearsbow put them on their drawing. I'm not sure it was ever balanced to the right flow. Mr. Chatham-No it wasn't I have all the balance charts sitting in the office we're going to have that done. We can't get the boilers to run long enough to accomplish that. Supervisor Brower-Is bothered by the icing in the parking areas. Councilman Stec- What about the radio room being hot in the summer not being able to cool it is there a solution? Mr. Jones-There sounds like there is a problem with air handler number three, which controls the exercise room, the day room and radio room. Mr. Mellon-Dan from Tri Valley was there today this is what he said. The difuser in the room is undersized and needs to be increased in size that was something they were suppose to do several months ago. Mr. Jones-For heating or cooling? Mr. Mellon-Both. Mr. Jones-The under floor system is the primary heat source in there so you shouldn't even need.... Mr. Mellon-It doesn't get over fifty-seven degrees. Mr. Jones-Then something is not right with the flow in the under floor system. Mr. Chatham- Tri Valley said there are two many issues. Mr. Jones-The thing is set up with zone control valves for the variable area volume with separate temperature controls. If you set one of the thermostats in anyone of those three rooms which are coming off of air handler number three you should be able to get heat is that happening? Mr. Mellon-No, there is no air movement from the air handlers. Mr. Jones-In anyone of the three rooms? Mr. Mellon-Correct. In the floor heat for some reason when the air conditioning is on the day room does cool. Mr. Jones-Something is wrong with the temperatue control. I remember that unit came in without the control package on it and it had to be ordered and added to that unit. We couldn't even do the shut downs for New York Fire and Signal until we had that installed which was delaying the Certificate of Occupancy for the building. I don't know what ended up happening with the temperature control but it sounds like nothing is hooked up on the heating side. Councilman Boor-Who was the original sub on that? Mr. Jones-It was Tri Valley. Councilman Brewer- Solutions needed to complete this list we are talking a few thousand dollars I think we're wasting more energy and time in my opinion. If we can fix them for a few thousand dollars then lets fix them. Mr. Jones-I think part of it is getting sub-contractors up here and finding out what we need to do to balance the under floor system I think that's where you have to start. If you have hot and cold spots in the building with the under floor system something is not right. The system was laid out we looked at efore the pour went down as far as the installation I think Whearsbow came up and inspected. The overhead system is basically the only reason it was still there with the heating side is because you need ventilation air to conform to the building code. We wanted to be able to have the hot water coils to temper the ventilation air. It's not the primary heat source it's only if you go in a room at night you hit the thermostat and the unit will come on and provide additional heat without turning up the entire system. Something is not right with the control systems on the air handlers and the under floor system as far as the water flow for that. The boilers have the capacity to heat that building without a problem. Councilman Boor-The overhead is that forced air? Mr. Jones-That's a forced air system. We have hot water coils in the air handlers and it's basically a forced system the air is tempered by the hot water coil. Supervisor Brower-The septic tanks freezing out from the drywell freezing up that seemsunusual were these not put in at appropriate depth? Mr. Jones-They were put in at the right depths. We talked to quite a few people this year we've had other instances where it's happened. With the extreme cold weather the frost penetration is deeper than usual. The built-in gutters in the building have electric heat trace in them. Is that set up on a time clock basis? How are you running that right now? Mr. Mellon-I think it's just a breaker. Councilman Brewer-We need to be looking at these problems to come up with solutions. Mr. Jones-We need to get the information from Whearsbow as far as what the flow should be. I haven't seen it, but it's here somewhere. We need to get it to Tri Valley so that the system can be balanced. Mr. Chatham- Tri Valley says they don't know an awful lot about it. Councilman Boor-I'm concerned with the people that are working on it. We asked Tri Valley if they would maintain the system for us they said no. Councilman Boor-Is Northern Mechanical the most qualified in the area to deal with this? Mr. Chatham-They straightened out Centrals Firehouse. Councilman Boor-Is that somethin that they would bid on or is this an hourly? Mr. Chatham-We had them bid on the maintenance and they were twice as much as the lowest guy so we went with the lowest guy. Met with another guy then called Northern Mechanical. They have the boilers set up and got them running. When air infiltrates the system you see the air. They go down we know that's a problem. We know that the fuel is having a problem getting delivered. We know that black pipe is leaking. Northern says there is a leak out in the tank. Mr. Jones-None of the monitoring in the tank has gone off to indicate a leak? Mr. Chatham-Not that were aware of there is no lights or flashing sirens going off. Mr. Chatham-I guess if somebody told us that it wasn't going to work we would have had to come back and asked for more money. The only reason we're here because they are asking what we are doing with the money. Mr. Chatham gave letter to Mr. Jones from Northern Mechanical regarding tank. Councilman Brewer-How much would it be for us to ask f you to go over this list with these fellows and come up with a plan to address all these issues and price it so we can get it done? Mr. Jones-We're not charging to do this. We live in this community. This project is as important to us as it is to Bay Ridge Fire Company. We don't make a habit of charging clients after the fact; it's not what happens. We want to resolve the issue if we know about them we'll help. If we don't know about them we can't address them. Supervisor Brower-I appreciate that attitude; that's what I was hoping might come out of this type of meeting. The bottom line is if you were willing to work with the Fire Company to address it would relieve a lot of my concern. Councilman Brewer-Can we anticipate that you guys will get together and take care of all these issues? Mr. Jones-Tim, I think one of the important things is we need to find out what we can do to get the contractors that are on record for installing this stuff back to do as much as possible. Councilman Boor-I would reommend that you send out a generic letter saying we believe there are problems either in material or workmanship wishing to keep our warranty open would appreciate you getting back to us. Mr. Mellon- Tri Valley is aware of this. The man from Tri Valley had it in his hand when we walked in the door. Mr. Jones-Your contract is with Plank Construction and that's whom you have to notify. Mr. Hess-I would like to make a suggestion. Is there anyway you could do that on the Fire Companies behalf? Mr. Jones-I think the contract is between Plank Construction and Bay Ridge. We can put together a letter and you can put it on your letter, but I think it has to come from you as the other party to the contract. We can put a letter together and I can get it to Russ and they can sign the letter with us. Supervisor Brower-Thanked everyone for coming in. RESOLUTION ADJOURNING SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING RESOLUTION NO. 169,2003 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. Roger Boor WHO MOVED FOR ITS ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mr. Daniel Stec RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby adjourns its Special Town Board Meeting. Duly adopted this 13th day of March, 2003, by the following vote: Ayes: Mr. Boor, Mr. Turner, Mr. Stec, Mr. Brewer, Mr. Brower Noes: None AbsentNone No further action taken. Respectfully Submitted, Darleen M. Dougher Town Clerk Town of Queensbury