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1991-11-07 TOWN BOARD MEETING NOVEMBER 7,1991 7:00 p.m. MTG #53 RES. 581 - 592 MEMBERS PRESENT STEPHEN BORGOS-SUPERVISOR GEORGE KUROSAKA-COUNCILMAN MARILYN POTENZA-COUNCILMAN RONALD MONTESI -COUNCILMAN BETTY MONAHAN-COUNCILMAN TOWN ATTORNEY PAUL DUSEK TOWN OFFICIALS Paul Naylor, Kathleen Kathe PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE LED BY SUPERVISOR BORGOS SUPERVISOR BORGOS opened meeting with the following statement ... I learned a long time ago that miscommunication among human beings is probably the most difficult problem we face and that perhaps 90 percent of our problems stem from that. That was brought home to me this morning when I awoke to the radio news with a variety of comments and I said, 'what happened'? Fairly soon, an hour or so later when I had a minute, got a chance to get the newspaper and see the front page. I was not happy, to say the least. Earlier today around 10:00 or 10:30 or so at the Municipal Center I did a television interview with Channel 8 and made some comments. Later today we finally had time to send off a press release to the local news media. Still later I prepared a letter to the editor for the newspaper. I've called the Editor, he has agreed to run that in the paper and I hope it runs tomorrow. But let me read it to you if you don't mind, just bear with me. I think its important that this word get out. Dear Editor, Please print this letter in its entirety as soon as possible so the public will know how I feel. I'm concerned about the perception and contents of the front page article in todays addition of the Post Star. The headline is inaccurate and although I did make the statement shown in quotation marks, they were taken out of contexts and the tone of the article is antagonistic. I will cooperate fully in the change of authority from one Supervisor to the next, exclamation point. Tonight budget hearing is a hearing only and no action will be taken. In response to a reporter's questions concerning the salary issue, I said, quote, "there is no sense in making the taxpayers pay for extra money that is not going to be used", end quote. I stated further that, quote, "we're always looking for ways to cut the budget whenever possible and if Mr. Brandt has no intention of excepting the salary budgeted, it would seem appropriate to cut it from the budget", end quote. I said, quote, "I will certainly be inclined to help him fulfill his campaign promise", end quote. I also told the Post Star reporter that changes in the proposed 1992 budget will be done by the full Town Board and I have only one vote. Your article states that, quote, " Borgos has intensified his attack on Brandt", end quote. That is not true. The entire interview featured on the front page of the newspaper was based on a phone call from a Post Star reporter to my home at approximately 9:00 p.m. last evening. All of comments were in response to specific questions by the reporter. When asked by the reporter if I had any plans to meet with Mr. Brandt, I responded no. I said further, Mr. Brandt had often announced that he was familiar with the operation of Queensbury government, would be able to take over quickly. I noted that Mr. Brandt has not contacted me in any way and has not requested a meeting. I told the reporter that Mr. Brandt has said he knows what needs to be done, so I don't see any reason to meet. In response to the reporters question concerning the transition when I took office, I said that no meetings were held with the previous Supervisor prior to assuming office. I said that under the law, I am responsible for Town government until midnight on the last day of December. I also said that I will be available until the last minute. I told the reporter, quote, "At midnight on December 31st, the keys to my office will be left on my desk and that will be all there is to it, the transfer of authority". I told the reporter that under the law Mr. Brandt will have full authority as Supervisor as of just after midnight on the morning of January 1st, even before any official inauguration ceremony. When asked if I had any bad feelings personally towards Mr. Brandt, I replied, no. I said that the two of us had met often during the campaign, had shaken hands and had talked. I will say again now, that there is no personal animosity against Mr. Brandt. I've told everyone that. Its going to be, hopefully, in the paper tomorrow. I've told you again now. Whether the reporter heard what I said in the way that I said it or whatever, I don't know. This is what I said, this is what I intended to say. All the quotations used in the letter or in the newspaper, appear again here but this is in context. I'm sure there is no animosity between me and the paper, its just one of those things that happen, that's why I wanted to clear that up. I see Mr. Brandt in the audience tonight, I spoke with him earlier this evening, and I'll ask Mike if he will come forward, we'll shake hands publicly and everybody will see it. TOM PHILO spoke regarding the newspaper article, noting his displeasure and recommended to Supervisor Borgos to work with Mr. Brandt during the transition. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN thanked Supervisor Borgos for his statement and clearing the air. PUBLIC HEARING - MOBILE HOME PERMIT - JAMES MONTGOMERY & RITA HAY 7: 13 p.m. Notice Shown SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Is there anyone here to speak for or against or ask questions about this particular item? It's normally, pretty much a pro form of proposition. Yes sir, would you come forward, state your name and address. WILFRIED KLEIN, 12c Newcomb Street-I was just wondering if this was for a new trailer or the existing trailer? TOWN CLERK DOUGHER-Steve, that is a replacement trailer, a 1971 model. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- Thank you. I know I reviewed it the other day but I didn't want to speak without checking. That is a replacement trailer. A 1971? TOWN CLERK DOUGHER-That is correct, 1971. MR. KLEIN-So they are removing one and replacing it with another? TOWN CLERK DOUGHER-What the theory is, if the weather is acceptable to moving it, they will move it on the site next to the one they're living in and as soon as the weather allows, it will either be now or early spring, to move off the old one, put in the new one and the old one will be taken away. MR. KLEIN-Okay, thank you. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- You're welcome. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Would you like to see the diagram? MR. KLEIN-No, I'm familiar with the area, thank you. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No it shows the mobile home, where they are going to be sited. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Any other comments or questions? Board members have any questions about this particular item? COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Just an accommodation by the Town Board I think to try and help a family that, they obviously had a good buy on a trailer and no place to put it and not being able to move the old one off site, so for a temporary basis they'll be two trailers on this site. One will be occupied, not two. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-And we've always been in favor of upgrading mobile homes. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Any further comments? Ifnot, we'll declare the hearing closed ... PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED 7:17 p.m. RESOLUTION APPROVING APPLICATION FOR REVOCABLE PERMIT TO LOCATE A MOBILE HOME OUTSIDE OF MOBILE HOME COURT FOR JAMES C. MONTGOMERY & RITA HAY RESOLUTION NO. 581, 1991, Introduced by Mr. Ronald Montesi who moved for its adoption, seconded by Mrs. Marilyn Potenza. WHEREAS, Mr. James e. Montgomery and Ms. Rita Hay have previously filed an application for a "Mobile Home Outside a Mobile Home Court" Permit, in accordance with Paragraph 2, Section 4 of Ordinance # 12 for the Regulation of Mobile Homes and Mobile Home Courts in the Town of Queensbury, to locate a mobile home at property situated at 16 Newcomb Street, Queensbury, New York, and WHEREAS, Paragraph 2(c), Section 4, of said Ordinance #12, requires the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury to hold a public hearing before granting said permit, and a public hearing was held on November 7, 1991, NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby finds that the application of Mr. James e. Montgomery and Ms. Rita Hay is satisfactory, and BE IT FURTHER, RESOLVED, pursuant to Paragraph 2(c), Section 4 of Ordinance #12, the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby authorizes the Town Clerk of the Town of Queensbury to grant a revocable permit to locate a mobile home outside a mobile home court, allowing Mr. Montgomery and Ms. Hay to place a mobile home on property located at 16 Newcomb Street, Queensbury, New York, in accordance with the terms of the Ordinance. Duly adopted this 7th day of November, 1991, by the following vote: AYES Mr. Kurosaka,Mrs. Potenza, Mr. Montesi Mrs. Monahan, Mr. Borgos NOES : None ABSENT: None PUBLIC HEARING - REZONING REQUEST - 1. BUCKLEY BRYAN, JR. 7:18 p.m. Notice Shown SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Mrs. Monahan, I guess you're on. I didn't get any further chance to talk to anyone else. Mrs. Monahan has agreed to make this presentation. She is thoroughly familiar with the project and Betty I guess we'll turn it over to you, tell us if you would the details. Some people have seen this before but the details of where the site is and maybe you can point to some items on the board. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-For the Town Board, there are a few extra here, I've got some maps. I think you all know that we've been industriously looking for a site to put senior housing because the National Church Residence who will be the developer has a grant for around 2 million dollars to put up a 41 unit building. This will be HUD money. The apartments will be subsidized. We were looking for a place where we could give the seniors a good quality of life and Steve happened to be talking to an owner of a land in a place where we thought was perfect and the gentleman said he would gladly devote his land to this use and some other special uses. This land is off Manor Drive. (demonstrated on map) Here is Aviation Road, here's Manor Drive, here's the apartment houses, the town house complexes that are there. Here is Farr Lane, here is the State of New York Civil Defense area. Here is Fox Farm road. Here is the Queensbury School grounds and the land behind here is undeveloped. The acreage is approximately 24 acres. National Church Residences want 5 acres of that land. But the Town Board itself is requesting this rezoning because we think it meets a great need in this Town. Let me run through some of the advantages of this here. We already have multi family units here. This will be next, we expect the building to be placed next to the school property. Therefore the seniors will have that nice view out over the open school fields. This is a nicely wooded area. What it is, is the rest of the old Floyd Bennett airport, the part that isn't part of the school grounds. They'll have all the exposure to what's going at school. In other words, they can watch the kids practice, they can go to the games. We've got the tennis courts there. Don't forget, alot of seniors are still playing tennis. There's a pool there. There will be the Lake George Opera Festival. All the different things that are going on in school. Within walking distance they've got, Stewarts market, they've got the Sokol's market complex. There are two churches near there. There is a dentist group of offices. It's an easy place to bring the bus system in. It has Town water. It does not have Town sewer. Okay. We think that this is a place where we can give the seniors a very good quality of life. It's across from the State Police barracks which is going to give them a feeling of security. One of my ex-girl scouts said to me, while you are doing this, why don't you think of a bikeway through that area to keep the kids off of the Aviation Road, plus alot of the seniors now have the three wheel bikes. So a bikeway is planned to go from this area traverse of the whole property. As we've talked to more and more people, this project gets more and more exciting overall. The owner of the land is interested in putting up some apartment complexes that we'll have over in this area that will have units in it for people with special needs. It will be the wider doorways for the wheelchairs, the bathrooms specially equipped, the lower units in the kitchen. We also, as part of this plan, are reserving 3 acres for the Town to have a park. This park will be focused towards senior needs, thinking of boccie ball courts, shuffle board courts, horseshoe pits, fitness trails. Right now I'm investigating what has been done any place in this Country for some part of that park to use for people with disabilities. In other words, equipment that will build up their leg area, the arm area, whatever. I've got through several different organizations trying to get some information on that which will be an innovative thing in this area if we can do it. Okay, lets see what else we've got here. The bikeway will be so that you can use the wheelchairs on it, the new... vehicles that are like the wheelchairs with the motors on them. Then the balance of the apartments will be for mixed needs in ages. There will be the advantage here of the seniors, can sell their home, they're living on their interest money and their social security. They'll be able to move into a regular apartment, I'm not talking about the subsidized now, the regular apartments, one of them in the family needs an apartment with special needs, they'll be able to move sidewards within this complex when it's fully built out. It will take a long while to get all these other uses in here. Therefore they won't have to pull up their roots and they can stay right in the same area. This zone also allows for professional offices, schools, health related facilities, incidental to the residential use. So this seems a natural area with the kind of uses that are here to have a spot left for professional buildings that would house doctors offices that would be compatible with the needs of the people in the area and also where you could have an adult care center and a day care center. Don't forget now we've got the sandwich generation that we've got to provide for. Those people that are taking care of their elderly parents and they're taking care of their children and they're also working and sometimes they need care centers for both the elderly and the children and we hope in this area we can provide those multi uses. We also are looking at the fact that this is the rest of the Floyd Bennett airport. It has great significance in this Town historically and it also has great significance in the nation because of Floyd Bennett. We're thinking of some kind of signage through here to be like an educational trails and to let people know what this area was used for, what the history of aviation was in Queensbury, what the history of Floyd Bennett was. Okay, we've got some problems that people have brought up and this is how we will be mitigating them. People are concerned about the traffic on Aviation Road, how people will get out of here. When the time comes, we obviously will have to start thinking of traffic lights because we've got bad traffic patterns on this road so far. This part of Aviation Road is at a traffic level that is acceptable but the time undoubtedly will come when that has to have a traffic light. Some people are worried about the soils. So what we have done is, there have been some tests done on this soils, alright, they seem to be perfectly fine for this type of development. But since the Town Board is rather careful, we have said that standard field percolation tests shall be conducted for verification of laboratory permeability test results prior to any subdivision approval or site plan approval requiring subsurface sewage disposal and storm water infiltration systems. In the event that suitable septic systems can not be built in compliance with all state and local laws, development of the property with dwelling units or other buildings will be limited to a number or square footage for which proper septic systems can be constructed. Therefore we have tried to protect the Town in this area. I'm also going to suggest Steve, in the mitigation, that we suggest the low water toilets, showerheads and so on and so forth. You knew that was coming, didn't you? We also had another thing raise it's head the other day and believe it or not we have another site here that maybe the Blue Lupine and the Blue Karner. So in the mitigation will go a statement that this spot will be investigated and the proper steps will be taken to protect the habitat of the Blue Karner Butterfly if it proves in fact that that habitat is there. We look forward to probably besides the senior units, I'm saving some space for the park, the bikeway, the roadways, the professional uses, that you will probably see, other than the National Church Residences, in the neighborhood of about 90 other units built in there and those units also have some qualifications on them. Okay, we've got the 5 acres for the 41 unit HUD section. Then at any given time, a minimum of 50 percent of all dwelling units built and in existence on the subject premises, shall be senior citizens preferred and or handicapped accessible and usable in accordance with the New York State Uniformed Building Code. The number of units built in connection with the 41 unit HUD section 202 project, shall be included for purposes of determining compliance with this condition. And two, at any given time a minimum of 25 percent of all dwelling units built or in existence on the subject premises, exclusive of the 41 unit HUD section 202 project, shall be handicapped accessible and usable in accordance with the New York State Uniformed Building Code. The number of units built as part of the 41 unit HUD section 202 project shall not be included for purposes of determining compliance with this condition regardless of whether the same is handicapped accessible. So we've put quite alot of conditions on this zone, because of what we are trying to do, the type of housing we are trying to, the needs that we're trying to serve. It will end up being a mixed community with mixed ages and so that you have a small community within this area plus the mix housing that you have around it. I think here in this Town we have in this project a chance to do something unique with this mixture. A something that, to my knowledge, has not been done any place around here. We're quite excited. Everybody who looks at this, comes up with a new idea to make it better. The owner of the land is excited of all these uses that are going in there. The need is being met for many, many different people in our area. CLAIR BREAULT-Will these be subsidized? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-The 41 HUD units will be subsidized. The whole complex will not be. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Excuse me. If anyone has any questions, since this is an official public hearing, you have to come forward and state your name and address and all that, which is not meant to not have you ask questions but its just part of the regulations. MRS. BREAULT-Well mines been answered. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Betty do you want to finish first or do you want to get questions as you go? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I think that's about all I have to say Steve unless you can think of anything that I have forgotten. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Maybe later. Now anyone may speak as often as you wish but everybody once first and then will go back a second. TOM PHILO, next door neighbor of Betty Monahan-Betty I'd like to ask you, what type of construction is this going to be? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I think Tom that is too soon to tell at this stage. Once this, the first thing that we have to do, the steps will be this, the land will be rezoned. Okay. Then the next step is for the owner of the land to come in with a subdivision plan so he can subdivide off this 5 acres and possibly the park land too. Then National Church Residences will come in with a site plan review for the construction of this building. Now if you are familiar with it Tom, though ours is not proposed to look like this, there is one of these up in Whitehall on Elizabeth Street. MR. PHILO-I was superintendent at it. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Were you really. MR. PHILO-That's why I'm asking the question. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-They intend to make this one, probably an L shaped building which I think will be a little fancier, for Queensbury. MR. PHILO-When I said, what kind of construction, is it going to be stick frame, is it going to be module units like the jargon for Glens Falls, chicken coop valley. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Oh no, we're only talking about, right now, National Church Residences, will be the one that is going to be first. The others will be built over several years. That has not been determined really yet. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-I think I can help having seen the original plans which I understand will be the same ones that will go here. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-For National Church Residence. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Would be framed construction, drywall interior built on site, stick frame. Not to be confused with low income housing. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-This is affordable housing only because its got the HUD subsidy, that's how it qualifies for that. MR. PHILO-How much is the government going to put in and for how long? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-The grant is 2 million dollars roughly, right Steve, I mean give or take a few bucks here and there? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-That's my understanding that the government grant covers the construction and then I don't think there's any life that I've seen and again, we don't get into that part of it, but I've seen no life time whether its 20 years or 30, I've seen no limit on that subsidy program and its set at a maximum rent, not to exceed a certain percentage of the income. MR. PHILO-So the Town of Queensbury is going to pick up the remainder of it? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, no, no, no. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- The Town of Queensbury pays absolutely nothing. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That's a federal government. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-We are totally not involved in this. MR. PHILO-Who is going to subsidize it? SUPERVISOR BORGOS- The federal government and the National Church Residence work together in a partnership. We're only involved in trying to help them find a location. That's our total involvement. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-We're also not involved in the price and terms of what the National Church Association purchases. That's between the ... MR. PHILO-I misinterpreted. Okay, I thought that we were going into construction. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, oh no. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-We are not in the construction business. MR. PHILO-Thank you. BOB FULLER, Reservoir Drive-One of the things that I noticed early on when this first came to life was that there was talk about a park and a bikeway and what have you. I think you mentioned that that was not, that would not be paid for by the developer and that Queensbury would absorb the cost of ... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-When National Church Residence puts in their request to be approved for site plan approval, they will give the Town at that time, 20,000 dollars. We will have that to start buying this land. We do not have to purchase that 3 acres at one time, we can do it over a period of time. As this other is built out, more money will come to the Town in what we call a recreation fee. MR. FULLER-So that what you're saying then is, as this development progresses, there will be revenue that will be generated that will offset the costs or will fully cover the cost of anything that the Town would want to contribute to this? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I would say definitely that there would definitely be enough money coming in for that. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-Dollars or land, that's the option. MR. FULLER-Is there a, just for my own information, is there a selling point to this notion of handicapped access and what I'm thinking specifically is that I think we have some homes that are built on Dixon Road right across from Dixon Heights and those were built and some how those went in because they were handicapped access and yet, no? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-I don't know how that ... COUNCILMAN POTENZA-It sounds good but no, no they're just duplexes and some of the construction that was done and only to make it more marketable for older building was it done. But there wasn't anything done specifically or aimed specifically for handicapped people there. MR. FULLER-I see, in other words, there was no special zoning because its handicapped access. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-No, its multi unit. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No and don't forget when we talk about handicapped access, you'll only have got to pick up the paper today and see the young people in motor vehicle accidents, sport accidents, industrial accidents that needs special types of housing. I have some of my nephews that are that category and I'm well aware of the need of that out in the community. MR. FULLER-Would you please, just how many total acres are we talking about rezoning in this area here? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-There are about 24 acres here. MR. FULLER-How many will be for this project? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-National Church Residences will take 5, the park will take 3, your bikeway, your roads and stuff will take anywheres from an acre to 2 acres. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-But the balance will be geared towards other senior housing, handicapped housing or ... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Or a certain amount of just straight housing. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-Yes but all multi unit. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But on the formula that we have. MR. FULLER-How close is the closest sewer district to this ... COUNCILMAN POTENZA-Howard Johnsons. MR. FULLER-Okay, so it is down the road. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-On the other side of the northway. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It might be up there before this is built out. That's something that we don't know but that's why we put in the very definite constraints about the percolation test so that it has to be proved that the land can carry anything that goes up there. MR. FULLER-Thank you. DAVE PALM, 37 Fox Hollow Lane-Your visual aide is inadequate. I can't really see it. Can you bring it or bring a copy of it over? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I know. This is your Fox Farm Road and ... SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Here is mine. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I know that there is some concern about where the entrance to this will come. Let me assure you right now it is not the intent to have an entrance coming in here except the bikeway off from Fox Farm Road because we know that Fox Farm Road is already heavily traveled, you don't need any extra traffic on that road. MR. PALM-Do you have a proposal that covers the whole 24 or 22 acres? COUNCILMAN POTENZA-No. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No because this is strictly in the concept type of thing. What you are asking for will be coming at site plan review for the different phases of this. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Just for everyone's sake, when it gets to site plan review, this project or any other, public hearings are held by the Planning Board so you certainly will have an opportunity to comment again at that point. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-All we are doing tonight is proposing a rezoning to make all these good things happen for alot of people who need it. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-Alot better than the swamp that they were going to put them in. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I call that warehousing George. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA- That was horrible, I couldn't live there. HOWARD SHAMES, Fox Hollow Lane-One of the things that I'm concerned about, I mean its a very nice project that you're looking to do, but I think you deal with Aviation Road very lightly. Right now with the congestion of Sokol's and Stewards, that whole area over there is terrible to drive on to began with and if you know, there's been multiple automobile accidents there. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, I'm not dealing with it lightly. What I'm saying is ... MR. SHAMES-Well a traffic light is not going to do it. Okay. You have a narrow road there, if you are going to have people with wheelchairs, you have children right now, walking back and forth ... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-You are not going to have people with wheelchairs out on Aviation Road. MR. SHAMES-Well you're talking about vehicles and bikes and things like that. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Still, you're not going to have those types of things out on Aviation Road. We're talking about an internal system for those types of things. I mean you are not allowed on the road with those kinds of things. MR. SHAMES-Well they're going to move with bicycles. Right now Aviation Road in that area is very congested now between the kids, the bicycles, people jogging, going back and forth to the tennis courts and I think that something has to be done for that area more than just the consideration of a traffic light. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-You may be entirely right that that needs a complete traffic study and the road will have to be upgraded. MR. SHAMES-We also have another problem with congestion. Right now, you can't get over the bridge to get from one end of Queensbury to the other and that's going to add to a tremendous amount of congestion there right now. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-What's going to go there for right now is the 41 units. These 41 units are not going to, with the elderly, are not going to add that much to the traffic congestion. MR. SHAMES-You're going to have people coming to service the elderly. You'll have people from Social Services ... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, not that much. Not that much, no. MR. SHAMES-I would be surprised. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well look at Bob Cronin and those places. You know you don't have that much traffic generated for those kind of buildings. MR. SHAMES-Okay. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Anyone else? CATHERINE MARQUARDT, 38 Fox Hollow Lane-Betty when you said, I'm picking up where Howard left off, you said, traffic is adequate? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Right now, the last traffic study that was done here, I can't tell you the exact level but it is an adequate level. I realize that once you get to the bridge you do change. MS. MARQUARDT-You don't even have to go to the bridge. If you live there you know it's not adequate. Not even close. You put senior citizens in there you are isolating them. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No. MS. MARQUARDT-They can't get out, unless they drive. We all have grown children, we have teenagers, we don't let them walk on that road. My son, 17 years old, plays varsity soccer, he certainly moves faster than senior citizen, I don't let him walk on that road. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-There is, this will be a very easy place to bring in the public bus transportation system. MS. MARQUARDT-But then if they don't ride the bus, they have to ride the bus to Stewards and Sokols? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well as far as riding to Sokols up here, you know, I mean, I'm a senior citizen, believe me, I'm perfectly capable of walking along the edge of Aviation Road. MS. MARQUARDT-You're taking your life in your hands if you do. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well so is any person in any age as far as that goes. MS. MARQUARDT-That's exactly my point. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But I also am on my road. You know. MS. MARQUARDT-I think Aviation, I think it's irresponsible of this Board to change the zoning until the traffic is changed. I'm not saying it never should be done, but first thing is first and you have to set your priorities and until you do something about the traffic pattern, at least as far back as Potter, to try and put any kind of housing in that area, is irresponsible and you're creating more accidents than we've already had. We've had some deaths over there, we've had some serious accidents and I don't think anybody that lives in that area, can even began to think about it. I had a mother who lived there with me for 7 years, in her 80's. I wouldn't let her go out any further than on to Fox Farm and she was as capable as you. I just thought it would irresponsible to change zoning at this point. MR. FULLER-Bob Fuller again. I just had a... SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Excuse me, just one second. We set up a rule before, I just want to make sure. Is there anyone else who wants to go first? We'll go one time before we start the second time around. MR. FULLER-Oh, I'm sorry. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Sorry. You're welcome to come back but I just want to make sure we follow it. DEBBIE COLLIN, 16 Fox Farm Road-You can almost see my house on the map. You didn't say anything about buffer zoning. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It's in the rezoning Debbie. MS. COLLIN-Okay, alright and that might be premature. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I'll read it to you precisely so you know what is in there. Certain trees and shrubs currently in existence and adjacent to Fox Farm Road, shall be left in their natural state and not cut or removed unless hazardous or diseased and this area is to be further defined and identified as a buffer zone left pursuant to the Town of Queensbury Conditional Rezoning and Declaration of Restrictive Covenants filed with the Warren County Clerk Offices on any and all site plans and subdivision plans presented to the Planning Board of the Town of Queensbury for review and or approval for any part of the subject premises. MS. COLLIN-Okay, who decides if they're diseased or not? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well that's pretty obvious. MS. COLLIN-I mean, I'd like the language to say, as is and I'd like the woods there to be the depth of the Civil Defense Center. You know the little bikeway can come in there but ... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That's pretty far in, deep, Deb. We don't usually have buffer zones that deep in. MS. COLLIN-Well, you know, I live right across the street ... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I know you do, yes. MS. COLLIN-I look at the woods and I don't want it to be just 10 feet of woods. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, you won't but buffer zones, I've got that on one of my maps over there, that's pretty deep in there and that would be an umeasonable amount to ask them ... MS. COLLIN-Well that might be umeasonable but I guess the reason why I say this is it took me 2 years to buy that property across the street because the zoning used to be this zone. I did alot of research, I went up to the tax maps, found out who owned the property, what was going on, went to all of your rezoning things, I'm on record. I probably took the risk of buying open land, but when they told me the aquifers running underneath this property and that's a very important piece of water, that it would go to RR3. I know some people don't think that's such a good zoning, I like that I guess better than what this is going to be, MR5. Now I haven't celebrated the second anniversary of my new house because I was told aquifers is an important thing and I know zoning is not written in blood, so I'm concerned that all of a sudden it's alright to pollute the aquifer. We haven't, you know, we haven't investigated how well these percolation tests, now I know they were done randomly, I've walked through those woods, there's about 10 percolation tests that were done, I think maybe by Mr. Ferrone, I'm not sure. So you haven't addressed that yet, and it sounds like that is premature, you're not going to know until you rezone what you are going to do about septics. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-The density won't go through if the ground can't carry it. Steve, I didn't bring it over here with me, you've got the letter there from Tom Yarnowich in that packet, would you read that please? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-I don't think I have it with me. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Wait a minute, I'll get mine. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-There was a study done several years ago and the engineer for the Town reviewed that, at this time, has issued an opinion. Betty has probably got that. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-This is from Tom Yarnowich, professional engineer with Rist Frost, addressed to our Planning Department. I have had the opportunity to conduct a general review of the March 28, 1991 hydraulical report prepared by George L. Marshall, Engineer Geologist. The test pit location plan was not included however. The data in the report indicates that soil conditions are generally favorable from an engineering standpoint in terms of subsurface sewage disposal, stormwater management, public infrastructure development and construction phase sediment control for development in a MR5 zoning density. Regardless of the development density, it is felt that standard field percolation tests should be conducted for verification of laboratory permeability test results prior to any subdivision approval requiring subsurface sewage disposal and stormwater infiltration systems. And that requirement is in the rezomng. MS. COLLIN-In the rezoning, okay, does it, I don't understand all that because I don't have that kind of background but once we pollute the aquifer, I mean you know, 10 years from now we find out, oh no, it won't happen, okay. Keep this record. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-This is on Town water there too you know. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-No, the only reason I say that is because we don't have, again, go back in the old pollution concern, all over Town, almost all the people, the vast majority of the people in Town of Queensbury, has septic systems and some who have sewers, wish they had septic systems. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-The whole west side of Town. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Most the west side of Town. We don't have any documentations that I am aware of with there are any pollution problems that way around Town now. In this particular case, whatever system were to go in there would have to be designed meeting all the latest criteria and there's a tremendous amount of sand there as you are aware, Mr. Kurosaka will tell you, sand is a... MS. COLLIN-There's about 150 feet of sand. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-I've done work in the area, the whole west side is sand. Also, in order to put in an septic system this size, you would have to take the perk test and test hole, right where they are going to put the system. MS. COLLIN-But they would only be testing for 41 units? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well that's all that is going there now. But before you can build any of the others, you've got to retest the other area. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-For this one, yes. But if they put another unit in, they've got to test there and for everyone they put in. So I think you are quite well protected. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-As you go along you're going to do further tests. MS. COLLIN-Okay. Am I allowed one question per time up here or can I give my other concerns? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-You are allowed to come up once, but if you've got two that kind of combine, once you've sit down, you've lost your turn ... MS. COLLIN-Oh I see, okay. The other thing I would like to propose to the Town is if you are thinking of rezoning this, I'm not against senior citizens, I think that 3 acres should be donated by the developer as, because this is sort of a nice favor to change this zoning from and I think the 3 acres should be something that should be donated, it's a park. Kind of like the green areas that developers have to do, I know within some of these other, even I think within our own development, a green area has to be kept, its not purchased by the Town. This is kind of a big favor. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I do want to say Debbie that for the rest of it, it's proposed that those units be clustered so there will be alot of green area in the area not just checker boarded up. MS. COLLIN-And in speaking of sewers, did we ever think of Hiland Park because they do have a sewer and I know he was talking about senior citizens. Was that ever something that we searched into and I know the bus system does come up to Regency Park. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-It's not economically conceivable to run sewers up there because they don't need them. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I'm afraid that the income ... MS. COLLIN-They have sewers as far as I understand, Hiland Park. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Hiland Park has sewers except for the northern most part of the development. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Debbie I don't think you'll find that Hiland Park is going to cater to the type of income that this specific property will here. You're going to have to have a pretty good income to live in any senior citizen housing that was proposed by Hiland. MR. PHILO-I'd like to answer this girl's question and Mr. Kurosaka will go through it, when we say percolation test. That's how fast the water goes into the ground, okay. MS. COLLIN-I know that, yes. MR. PHILO-And he said it was sand and gravel, so it would go very fast. You said Hiland Park, its clay. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-It sure is. MS. COLLIN-Yes, they have sewer. MR. PHILO-Okay, so the percolation is zilch, whatever goes in there is on top and it's going to stay there. So what they're saying to you is, the sewer, it will go down fast, it will dissipate fast. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-Yes, but what she is saying, has the Church ... MS. COLLIN-Will it dissipate and hit that aquifer? MR. PHILO-It would never touch it. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-It wouldn't effect the aquifer, the amount of water going, it wouldn't effect it. It will oxidize itself. MS. COLLIN-It won't effect it. Alright, I just remember when we used to dump all that stuff in the rivers too and it wasn't going to happen, ruin those either. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-The first thing is, your sewage, the effluent produced, a certain amount going through the system, once it hits the ground, it tumbles down through the rocks and the oxygen in the ground oxidizes it. MS. COLLIN-I know that sand and gravel is a good filter. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-I think your own system on the property is that way. MS. COLLIN-Yes, I'm aware of that. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-I think we missed her question. Was the question you asked, has the Church group looked at the land of Hiland Park to perhaps relocate there instead of ... that was the question. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Oh, excuse me. MS. COLLIN-Yes because they do have already in place sewers and seeing that you are dealing with a large load of multi dwellings. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- The answer to your question is yes, land was too expensive. They looked at other land also on Meadowbrook Road, that land also too expensive and unworkable. MS. COLLIN-Yes, I was aware of that. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-Also Hiland Park is too far away from urban areas. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-Also isn't there a contingency is this contract about perhaps putting a Wisconsin Mound in if there's concerns? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It just says that they have to have a system that is going to work and I mean, that system is will be ... MS. COLLIN-Wait a minute, that's not like a settling bed, is it? COUNCILMAN POTENZA-No. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, a Wisconsin Mound is when you ... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-A large Wisconsin Mound is a pain in the neck. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That's when you have to bring in more dirt. You have to bring in more dirt and mound it. I think the bank down here is on a Wisconsin Mound. MS. COLLIN-Does it produce an odor? COUNCILMAN POTENZA-No, it's covered. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, absolutely not. It's used up around ... COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Generally a Wisconsin Mound is when you can't go into ground because of rock and you build a mound on top of the ground and put your leach pipes into that mound system. Sometimes you have to pressurize it. We have some of those up in Lake George and Cleverdale and Assembly Point where they are based on rock. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-You've got some on the islands too, they're designed so. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-It's a totally different concept from what we're dealing with here. In some cases where you have real good soils, like we have here, sand and gravel, sometimes the percolation is too fast and they need to put some clay in where the septic tanks are going to be to slow down the rate. MS. COLLIN-I think you've got about 150 feet of sand is where, because when they drill for the school, that's what they... COUNCILMAN MONTESI -A good filter bed. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-In fact Debbie, we did that with one area that we rezoned, we know part of it is going to take the septic systems well and the others got to have some different kind of dirt drawn in and that's in that rezoning. That restriction is in there, to meet the percolation test results. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-Another answer to one of your questions too Debbie, is that I don't know what the minimum green space or setbacks, but I know it's a minimum of 50 feet on ... COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Between zones. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-And residential, right? So it would be that minimum of 50, between MR5 and Single Family Residential. MS. COLLIN-See I guess I'm requesting more ... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Debbie, I think it will be, but it may not be the length of that because that's pretty narrow there. My sheet with the figures on is over there. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-I believe that's a 140 some feet across there. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But that's very narrow, you're not going to be putting much there. By the time you put the bikeway in, you're not going to be able to get too much in there. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-One hundred twenty-three. MS. COLLIN-You have an established path already that's very close to the Civil Defense Building right now. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Do you? MS. COLLIN-Yes, that the kids have used that they may want to straighten. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I saw some other paths out there they use too. MS. COLLIN-Yes. So is there a reduction from when I came to the Planning Board, you said there would be, before that said 112 units, has he reduced it to 90? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-These are not exact figures because you have to really multiply it out, the exact square feet and all this kind of stuff. But what we've done is, the SEQRA report says that there's a 169 units that can go there. That's maximum. You take out 3 acres for the park, you take out 26 more units. You take out probably the roadway would be equivalent to 2 units. You take out the 41 for the National Church Residences and then you take out 2 to 3 acres to be reserved for the professional buildings and the developer is very interested in that concept, the owner of the land. So you're taking out more than 17 more units and that's how you get down to, 85 to 90 units. I might be off a few, I mean, don't hold me exact. MS. COLLIN-I know, Buckley Bryan owns the Queensbury Manor as well, I know that he does allow for every 2 bedroom, for each one of his apartments, he allows 2 cars per unit and I guess I go back with my neighbors and say, 2 times 90 is 180 cars. That does, that's quite a few. I know that they're not going to all come at the same time but we've got to look at the traffic. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Debbie that question would be addressed when this part goes for development, when they come in for site plan review in front of the Planning Board and then all those pieces get put together and you also have a right to come and be a part of that process. MS. COLLIN-So let me understand, is this MR5 going to mean more of a special MR5? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It's a MR5 zone with some restrictions to it, because of the seniors and the handicapped. MS. COLLIN-Okay, alright, because I get a little creepy feeling that it's just kind of, we've got the 40 units and now he can do what he want's. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, the restrictions were very definite that I read for you about the percentage that has to be for seniors or handicapped, two different formulas in there, so that if one doesn't kick in, the other one does about what has to be built first and so on and so forth. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Debbie, actually the senior citizen is a 1 unit building probably maybe 2 of the Queensbury Manor Buildings in size, on 5 acres. So it's a fairly small building on a large parcel of land. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It is. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-We as the Town Board are concerned tonight with, yes we're looking at rezoning 24 acres, but very specifically for you and for the public, I think what we're saying is, we're really interested in trying to get the grant through and dealing with 1 building on 5 acres. The rest of the property that Mr. Bryan has asked for the rezoning on and we're considering tonight, has some real restrictions on it as Mrs. Monahan put out. But that whole process of that parcel, where the road will actually come in on Farr Lane or through the apartment complex and what the park will look like, has to go through the strict review of the Planning Board and a site plan review and at that point they do make some demands on that developer for a traffic study count, for the specifics for perk's and all of those tests. I feel comfortable that there review will handle many of the questions that you and your neighbors are concerned with. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-We can answer for them. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I sort of and I don't make little of this, but I sort of think that the 41 units on 5 acres is not as impacting as the rest will be and obviously it will have a barring on the next round and that's where you'll be most effective in controlling what you see as you look in your neighborhood. MS. COLLIN-I don't object to 41 units on the 5 acres. I'm real concerned about the rest of that property. That's the part that frightens me the most. If it was just that, I would be up here with my pom poms. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yes but alot of what is proposed here, will be almost a support system because this is kind of a corner stone of a project that, whose object is to meet some very special needs in this Town. MS. COLLIN-By the turn of the century which is not too far, half of the population will be over 60 and I would almost come up here, and should we make this a special zone and it could only be for senior citizens? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-As a senior Debbie, I'm going to tell you no. I think there's nothing more depressing than to be just around seniors. MS. COLLIN-Well we're surrounded by though a mix community. I'm not saying it's a closed community like some of the ones, say in Florida. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yes and probably they're illegal now because of age discrimination. MS. COLLIN-Okay. BONNIE GARVEY, 42 Fox Hollow Lane-First I want to ask you, if you give this your approval, what is the time frame? When will you say yes to this person and when will he start doing whatever and how long will that take? SUPERVISOR BORGOS- The he is a corporation, National Church Residences. Mrs. Monahan has been doing the negotiations, she can give you a better idea. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-For this part right here, the 5 acres that they're going to have, they want to start putting the shovels in the ground in the Spring. But they have to go through site plan review all the, first the subdivision has to be done, then the actual project itself, has to go for site plan review through the Planning Board which is probably a process of at least 2 to 3 months there. All of that will be sessions that will be opened to you. That will be the first step, that 41 unit building. MS. GARVEY-And how long to build it, to actually get people in there? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well I'll tell you, we've got people calling right now and going on what they call, the interested list, that's how bad the need in this community is. MS. GARVEY-So by next Fall this could be a reality? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well you know, it's kind of hard for me to tell what the construction schedule is for some organization. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-It's possible. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But it's possible, I'm not saying it will actually happen that fast. I would hope we could house some of them by next Fall because I've seen some of the places that some of them are living in and they are unsafe structures. MS. GARVEY-Okay, my next question is, did you say that there is a definite guarantee that they are not going to some how have an access road that comes out onto Fox Farm Road? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I said it's not the intent of this Board and I think that we all agree on that, that the traffic will not come out this way because this road is a congested one. MS. GARVEY-Well I didn't say as a main road, I said as an access road. Perhaps some kind of fire code or something says, you need an alternative route into the project. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-We are working a couple of different scenarios to move traffic in and out. If these scenarios come true, we wouldn't even need that for an emergency access. MS. GARVEY-But the possibility of eventually that having to be used, is there. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well if it were an emergency, if you're talking to bring a fire truck in some time ... MS. GARVEY-No, I'm talking as perhaps a concession and, you know as you go along, each side ends up compromising different projects. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-This entire project has been done with the only thought in mind, that Farr Lane would be extended by receiving title from the State of New York to a narrow and short piece of the Civil Defense property, to be used for a road that could then shoot across the property. The proposal calls for at least a driveway to start from Manor Drive in. Mrs. Monahan is currently speaking with the School officials about acquiring from the School, a very narrow strip of land running right along the edge of the property, provide just a road access on that side. That would be one straight road across the property. That would then give 2 exits there without anything going to Fox Farm Road and there's no intent going to Fox Farm Road. MS. GARVEY-Okay. My other concern as the rest of my neighbors have already stated, is the traffic on Aviation is horrendous. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-And we recognize that concern. MS. GARVEY-You know it truly is. To drive out of Sokol's parking lot, your head has to rotate 360 degrees a couple of times, people are just pulling in and pulling out from allover, Stewards, the whole bit. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I'm over that way quite often myself. MS. GARVEY-I don't think, traffic wise, we're really going to have to figure something out before we allow this, I think it's not in the best interest. That's it. Thanks. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- Thank you. DAVID KENNY-I think this is a great idea, I think it's something that's really needed in the Town of Queensbury. I have a couple of questions though. I know this property was looked at for this specific purpose at one time and being somewhat familiar with some of the things that have gone on in the last few years, this property, I don't recall what it was rezoned 3 acres, maybe 1 acre, I believe it was half acre zoning. It was changed from that to 3 acre zoning for a specific reason. Now if we go back and change it, are we saying when we change it from the half acre to 1 acre to 3 acre, that reason no longer applies. I believe the reason was, because that we felt it was over an aquifer, it was sand and we were a 100 percent for this type of project going in, if it was ever sewered. Now without it being sewered and turning around and changing it and giving it to him, are we saying, 2 years ago when we rezoned it, we didn't do our homework very well or we had no right. Because the reason, when you rezone somebodies property, you have to have, I think, a reason. You just can't go and do it because I feel like doing it. The reason was because this was over an aquifer, there was sewage problems, we thought, the engineers had said that to some people at that time. So my concern is, are we opening some type of Pandora's Box by saying, well, just because this is a needed project, which I agree, but for other people in the community that property was zoned because we had reasons, maybe there's reasons involving my property also, I want to go back to what I was. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-You were a member of the original Citizen's Advisory Committee that proposed the rezoning of the entire Town, so you're familiar with all the details. This property to the best of my knowledge, had been zoned to accommodate apartments prior to that rezoning. MR. KENNY-Right, correct. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-At the time this new proposal came in, Mrs. Monahan went to the Planning Department, it's my understanding, you can confirm this, that the Planning Department looked and said that, they made general statements about sections of the Town based on general topography and geology that on closer observation, that they found this section was not what they thought it was, according to the hydrological studies that were done. I understand Mrs. Monahan again has followed this but I understand that's the case. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Dave, when you looked at the soil maps that you looked at when you were on the Citizen's Advisory Board, they were broad based geological maps. Alright. The tests have since been done on this particular property that Tom Yarnowich's letter referred to, that show that this property can carry septic systems in this density from testing that has been done. We've also said, not only are we just not going on the testing that has been done, but it's in the rezoning language itself that tests have got to go in here to prove every density that happens here that it can carry the soil. If any test fails then they cannot have that density, they will have to adjust that density downwards. MR. KENNY-I will concur with that, the information that we got back then I will not say was correct, I guess my concern... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I am not saying your information wasn't correct I am saying it was broad brushed maybe taking in ten or fifteen, twenty, thirty acre parcels, this here was gone on and done on specific, this was, come in and gone of specific parcel, a smaller parcel and said within this area here is a parcel that can carry it. MR. KENNY-I am not disagreeing, I guess my concern is, is if! own 15 acres three miles away and I was up zoned to 3 acres for whatever reason, now if I can come in and prove with test are you going to give me, rezone me again? COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-You might be able to. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-We would have to listen to them. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-We would judge it by its own merits. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Dave, we listen to rezoning all awhile, you know, rezoning again I will say and I have been in this for a long time through the League of Women Voters and done an awful lot of seminars on it. Zoning is not a static condition, in fact we should be updating our zoning right now in the light of new regulations and the State of New York is coming out right now with bills in front of the legislature with alot of different zonings that they call innovative planning. I have not a chance to read them yet, there's another one called flexible planning. Zoning is a changing picture all the while. MR. KENNY-I know. I guess I'm somewhat even referring to where the road comes around by exit 20, where Rush Pond is, that was all up zoned for the same reason and it has basically the same sand. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well wait a minute, you're in a special environmental zone, Critical Environmental area there so we can't compare that, not with Rush Pond. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-Well this backs up to Rush Pond. MR. KENNY-Well this backs up to Rush Pond also. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well wait, Rush Pond is way over here, though someplace, I mean this isn't here and Rush Pond here ...you've got many acres in between. MR. KENNY-The reason we rezoned it was because of the aquifer and the water, which we were told. Now I'm not an engineer, when people came and told me that's not a good place to have that high density, I voted, said if that's the case, the engineers say that, fine. Now we did the man an injustice by rezoning because now we're being told 2 years down the road, that that's not the case at all. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-You've got more detail studies with this. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-You've got more detail studies. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- The Planning Board has reviewed this again and they've recommended the rezoning on this, based on detail studies. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yes. MR. KENNY-Oh, I'm not against the rezoning, I think it's a great idea. I think it's a great idea but I'mjust saying is it opening a Pandora's Box where we, apparently when we rezoned it down 2 years, even though we spent 2 1/2 years doing it, we didn't do a very good job. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, that's not true, you did a good job in the light of the information you had and the light of that time. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-No, nobody is accusing you of that Dave, you were correct with the information you had. MR. KENNY-I'm just bringing this as a point of reference. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I know exactly what you are saying. MR. KENNY-I just think that, to rezone a specific property without, when the reason why we rezoned it last time, was an infallible, was not the truth and that's what we're saying. We rezoned it, it was zoned for high density, we took that away because, and the reason, you have to have a reason, the reason was, the soil was no good, that's what the owner was told. I remember him coming to the Queensbury High School fighting it ... "Why are you rezoning my land"? "Go test it, I'll prove that it's good soil", and we said, well that's not what the information we have. I remember the guy coming and saying it was going to be designed for this and now all of sudden we're saying, "you know what, you were right". Well that's good that we're going to change it if it was a bad decision but I'm a little concerned on how it effects everything else in the Town. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-In fact, you know, when he came in with this test that he had done after the zoning was done... MR. KENNY-Before the zoning was done, he came in. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, well he came in after with this big packet of data and it was suggested to him then that maybe he should apply for a rezoning because of the data that he had but he didn't bother to do it. RICHARD COLLIN, 16 Fox Farm Road-I would like to talk about the, what I would call, the handle on that piece of property. Is it necessary that that has to be rezoned as well? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yes. MR. COLLIN-It has to be all part of it? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yes, because it's all one part of one parcel. But I mean, you know, logically, what are you going to do down here where it's a 100 foot wide? MR. COLLIN -You could put a road through. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-You're going to put a bikeway through. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-What if the rezoning, and I'm just throwing out comments, if the rezoning specifically said, there will be no entrance, no roadway permitted on that side ... MR. COLLIN-It sounds good. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Totally and what if the rezoning said that there would be a minimum buffer of 150 feet and that further that there would be no structure built within 300 feet of the road? It starts to push things back. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But Steve, I think we need to get the measurements here first and I've got them on one. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Well you can do it right there. That little piece, 143 feet Ron said, so double that for the back of a building. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-The straight line is 584 feet. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Have you got my map there that has the measurements on? COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Yes, it's 584 feet. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-A football field away there is possible back of the building. MR. COLLIN-I do not see that written in this. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-That is why I got a public hearing to take that kind of input. MR. COLLIN-What we were thinking of was not necessarily the back piece of the Civil Defense on the property but they have an existing fence that is in the back of the property and that would be to be sufficient border, it is not all the way to the back of the property but it does set back quite aways. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-The fence shows here, that is a possibility it is 400' MR. COLLIN-Don't you feel that is too much? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-We are here to talk about it. 400' is more than a football field. MR. COLLIN-It is all wooded at this point. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-And when the leaves go away you can see the lights through it. We are open to suggestions. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Is it too much, its not too much to talk about, it is if you say, and I am not arguing for or against it but I am saying 150' by 400 is like almost 2 acres and a guy will be paying taxes on 2 acres and not being able to use it. What is a reasonable amount 150 x 50 150 x 100 where you are tying to be fair to the people that own it and also the people in the neighborhood. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-But you could, the owner could have the use of that property in that through a clustering concept that property could count for the acreage so you are not going to deprive the owner or anybody of the use of the land and just push it further away and that counts in as part of it and I think it is fairly simple, change to make. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-In fact I did hear the suggestion one time, but it was a suggestion, it is not cast in concrete that this might be a good area to put some picnic tables and things like that besides the bikeway, you know. Of course you are going to have the protection of the wooded area etc. MR. COLLIN-I guess what concerns us more is the ... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I think it's already in this you know, clustering is a way that this is to go, now, I suppose we could put in a further restriction asking that, that area to be used as part of the green space to a certain amount back here, I do not think you want to go the whole 584' because that is a lot of land, but maybe part way back. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-I think time begins, and correct me our Attorney if! am wrong, when you change from one residential zone to another to a multipurpose zone the buffer zone has to be a minimum of 50' ATTORNEY DUSEK-Right COUNCILMAN MONTESI-So time begins on that property at 50' so we have a 50' buffer to start with right now, and ... MR. COLLIN-Couldn't you put a further restriction as you suggest COUNCILMAN MONTESI-What I am saying, is that is where it starts now what would be reasonable to the neighborhood? MR. COLLIN-Would we have a secondary input here as to what you decide as far as the depth and when will that be? COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Well we ought to talk about it tonight. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-We ought to do it right now. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-Well we could put it in, yes... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Because we could put it in the rezoning. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-Put it in the rezoning now that you want a minimum of 150' of buffer from off ofFarr Road with no access road. MR. COLLIN-How far, from the fence on that map how far back is that? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-I would guess about 400' looking at, the total length is 500. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-584' SUPERVISOR BORGOS-We are looking at a map of the property drawn by VanDusen and Steves the date is May 15th 1985 for reference. It is 584' total you got the fence coming here so you are probably about 400', and perhaps a little bit longer than that. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-Much to ask a man to give up, unless you can figure it into green space. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-You wouldn't give it up you would just restrict it. MR. COLLIN-...cutting half that woods out the way you are really, cutting a fair share of what exists now as a buffer to the end of the runway, the old runway. ...you will cut down a fair section of ... SUPERVISOR BORGOS-I think we are hearing enough input tonight very honestly that I certainly wouldn't be ready to vote for a rezoning tonight, I would personally like to take all this under consideration and suggest that Mrs. Monahan and Mrs. York perhaps go out in the field and have the distances measured off and flag it out and see what it looks like. MR. COLLIN-With the no road restriction SUPERVISOR BORGOS-I think that is important. MR. COLLIN-Ok, larger set back as is except for bikeway? COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-We don't get like nonnegotiable demands but give reasonable suggestions that is what we are here for to listen. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well, I think it was a definite intent, because as you know, Debbie came to the Planning Board when we were talking about it to protect the residences in that area. I mean they thought that was a reasonable intent to give them that buffer protection. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-It's not like these people would be rowdies, they won't be. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- Thank you. MYRON SWEET, Farr Lane-Now how are you getting in there? Are you going down Farr Lane or not? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, that's what we just said, no. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Farr Lane. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Oh, Farr Lane, excuse me. MR. SWEET -You're going down Farr Lane. Alright, you rezoned it once, you've got an apartment house next to me, so I will be in the middle of a bunch of apartment houses, then, right? COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-Where are you? MR. SWEET-I live on Farr Lane. (demonstrated on map) Right there. You got an apartment house here, you're gonna stick more apartment houses over here, so I'll be right in the middle of a bunch of apartment houses, right? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well I don't know if! would say you're going to be in the middle of them. (demonstrated on map) There's going to be apartment houses out here and there maybe a couple of professional buildings and you're going to have alot of green area out there too. MR. SWEET -(demonstrated on map) My house is right here. It's nice and quiet there. I got there, nobody, I built over the park there, because nobody will bother me, it be alright if it stayed. Now I've got an apartment house here, another apartment house here. How are you getting in there with the water? Come across my yard or not? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well Manor Drive has Town water, they'll take it off from in that area. MR. SWEET -Alright. Why are they going down this road, straight in? COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-The boundary lines there. MR. SWEET-Why not go across Manor Drive, they're the ones that are gonna make the money on it, right? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-There, probably, there's enough room there for a driveway into here. I'm not sure if there's enough room to put a way in the other. MR. SWEET-What's here then, that everbodies talking about? What's going to be here on Fox Farm Road? COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-Nothing. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That will be left for a bikeway going in through there and the rest of it will be left natural. MR. SWEET -Okay, where is the park going to be? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Right now it's proposed that the park, this is a little bit out of scales, proposed that the park be behind the senior citizen area. MR. SWEET-Yea, okay. But do you understand what I'm saying? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I do. MR. SWEET-It's nice and quiet and now I'm going in the middle of a park and 2,000... and I don't know what's next. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Sir, I lived on a road that when I was a child I could slide down it on a sled. Now, I can't listen to the TV. with my front door open. MR. SWEET-... you build here because the State owns it, and now I found out the State doesn't own it. So the water won't come across my yard, right? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I'm not on the water committee, I don't really know where water lines go there. Steve? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-There is a water line on Farr Lane. MR. SWEET-What gets me, I mean, they rezoned it once, multi houses, right, then rezone it to residential again, right? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Zoning never stays the same, I can tell you. MR. SWEET -Now you're going to build here, but what happens to this space? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-This is what I was telling you, there will be more senior housing, there will be some handicapped housing, there will be some regular apartments, there will be space that can be used there for, like a Doctor's office or an Adult Care Center or something like that. MR. SWEET-I understand, I had apartments and I sold them, got rid of them, I got sick of them and go over there and say the heck with it. But now, they're following me right around, the apartments, you know. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yes. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-You're not going to have a bunch of rowdies, these are old people. MR. SWEET-Yea, but okay, 25 percent ... COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-You are no spring chicken yourself, you know. MR. SWEET-Yea, I know, another 4 years and I can retire. So where am I now, right in a bunch of apartment houses. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-They are for older people, they're not going to be rowdie. MR. SWEET -Only 25 percent are older people. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Excuse me, would you speak into the microphone sir, just so that we can get all this on tape. MR. SWEET -Just 25 percent are going to be for old people, right? COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-No, 25 percent handicapped. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-Or old. MR. SWEET -And how many old people? COUNCILMAN POTENZA-One or the other. MR. SWEET-I mean is this all going to be for old people. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-State code says, you've got to have 25 percent handicapped, period. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-At any time, there's going to be a minimum of 50 percent of all dwelling units built, shall be senior citizen preferred and or handicapped accessible. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-And, or, that's right. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-Twenty-five, half of those, have to be handicapped anyway. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-No. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-Yes they do. State law, the building code requires 25 percent to be handicapped in multiple housing. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-According to the way this is written its and or COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-I don't care what it says. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Let me try to bring this back to order for a minute MR. SWEET-In other words this is subdivided, right? And COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-Just the five acres. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN- Just this part is subsidized. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Please both of you speak into the microphone so we can get it all. MR. SWEET-What I am saying is how many years, after ten years down the road, they can rent it to anybody? That is what I am asking, is that possible? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-These restrictions are on this land, and what is says is, shall be senior citizen preferred and or handicapped accessible and usable. Now if something happens though in this town that we did not have any Senior Citizens that wanted apartments or handicapped that did not want apartments then somebody else could rent them. As long as the market is out there and I think it is going to be there that's what is going to be in there. MR. SWEET -But it does not stop them from keeping on coming. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-We do not know what is going in there. MR. SWEET-You do not know what is going in there. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-We know the restrictions that we placed on it. MR. SWEET -But actually the idea you build you house in a residential zone and the next thing you know you are in the middle of ... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I know exactly what you are saying and as I said I live in a single family house that has changed so in character and the traffic pattern around there in the sixty years that I have been there, or been in one near there that it is unbelievable. Things do not stay the same in Queensbury now. MR. SWEET-...Aviation Road... COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA- Thank you, Sir. MR. SWEET-Thank you. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Mr. Tucker PLINEY TUCKER-Pliney Tucker, Queensbury COUNCILMAN POTENZA-Wait... ATTORNEY DUSEK-I just want to make a correction, I just made an error. Mr. Montesi had asked a question as to whether that required a 50' buffer zone between the zones. It does not. I just double checked. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Under the law you are saying it would not require the zone but certainly we can impose it. Correct. ATTORNEY DUSEK-You can certainly put it in as a condition, that's correct. But I just wanted to correct that misstatement. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Okay, thank you. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Paul, if we put any tougher conditions in that are here right now, do we have to re-advertise this? ATTORNEY DUSEK-No. MR. TUCKER-Betty, I gather you've had alot of conversation with the gentleman that owns this land? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yes. MR. TUCKER-Economics, was the 3 acres going to cost? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-We haven't talked about a price at this time or whether some of it will be donated or what. MR. TUCKER-I understand the church unit is tax exempt, yes? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-I believe that's the case for the town tax, the county tax and perhaps the school tax. It is not the case for the water, nor for fire protection, special districts. MR. TUCKER-No, I know that. Is the rest of the area that you are talking about rezoning, going to be tax exempt? COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-No. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No. MR. TUCKER-Okay. You rezone this, the whole package, the church deal falls through, does the property rezone back to what it is now? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Paul, you've got to answer that the way you wrote this, please. ATTORNEY DUSEK-Yes, under the way this is structured, the answer is no, it would not rezone back. However, the protection that has been put in, is that there is in here a requirement that no other buildings can be constructed anywhere on the property until, that event of the senior citizens complex happens. So essentially, the zoning goes into place, the senior citizens doesn't get built, nothing can happen on that property and it will be up to the owner to come back to the Town Board and request a rezoning or some other solution. MR. TUCKER-Thank you. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-You'll probably be sitting here then. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- Thank you. JOHN SCHULTZ, 39 Fox Hollow Drive-I would like to add my voice to those who are concerned about the traffic situation on Aviation Road. I grew up on Wolfe Road in Colonie and I still run a business down there so I'm a little bit familiar with changing traffic patterns and I've been traveling on Aviation Road for about 9 years now. I've seen the traffic on Aviation Road increase, multiplied dramatically. In my opinion the traffic is coming very close right now to saturation point on Aviation Road. I believe that at some point in the very near future, that road is going to have to be widened. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-I think we all believe that. MR. SCHULTZ-And I believe that something has got to be done for pedestrians. I haven't heard anything yet concerning what we should do with pedestrians. We have school children going back and forth on that road every day. Now you're going to be having elderly people going back and forth on that road. Something needs to be done to address these concerns and I haven't heard anything ... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-This is part of the reason of getting a bikeway in there so we can get them at least off the Aviation Road in this area and shoot them through that way. Which is a small area, I know, but at least it will get them off one piece of it, can conceivably. But you know... MR. SCHUL TZ-I don't know how long this project is going to take but when it's fully developed with all the, with everything that you're talking about there, you're going to be adding alot more traffic on there and I just think, you know, if this goes through and another project, a housing development goes through down further on Aviation Road or off Aviation Road or whatever, all these things just keep adding to the problem. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-You're completely right and Queensbury needs a good traffic management plan allover the whole Town. You are right. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-John the other thing that you didn't mention but it has to be addressed too and we have talked to the State of New York and Steve tells me that we are 3 to 4 years away from that happening, is the widening of the bridge on the Northway. I think that when that bridge, when we get confirmation from the State that that is widened, then have an opportunity to look at most of the property from the bridge until, pretty much Manleys, is owned by the School. There isn't anything that's built on that so that the possibility of widening that does exist. It gets a little cumbersome once you get by Potter Road in terms of how wide would you make Aviation Road the rest of the way. But at least to Potter Road, there's at least strong possibilities of widening that. The State has put Aviation Road, exit 19, on a low priority list, 3 to 4 years. I think we have one of the highest counts off of exit 18 and 19 on the Northway, next to Wolfe Road and we're on a low priority. MR. SCHUL TZ- The traffic patterns between the School and Potter Road right now are horrendous. There are many accidents that are happening there all the time now and I'm surprised that there aren't more. I'm sure there will be more and they'll be worse accidents. I just hate to see something else go in there without something being done first. I really, I think you should seriously consider this problem before you go ahead with this project. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- Thank you. Anyone else? Mike. MIKE BRANDT-Hi. One of the things I found in campaigning in this election was that there's a great deal of concern about the overall Town plan and especially in traffic and green belts and neighborhood preservation. There was a great deal of enthusiasm by people towards looking at a comprehensive rewrite of a master plan. All I would suggest is that there's a whole new Town Board coming aboard in a month in a half or so or a month and three quarters and I would suggest you do not rezone this at this time and you let the new Board address it. I think that what's happened here is the Federal Government has dangled a piece of money in front of us, change your Town plan and accommodate this special need and of course there's need for it, and we're jumping through hoops for them. We've become the project's sponsor and we're in such enthusiastically trying to accommodate this, that we're losing track of the neighborhood in our own Town. I think the Town does belong to all the residents and I think they have a right to slow, careful input. I just would like to ask you to consider deferring this to the new Board. Thank you. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- Thank you. Anyone else? PETE SMITH, 137 Aviation Road I own the property on the corner there of Aviation and Fox Farm Road. I know the traffic is terrible there I can't get out of my driveway half the time and go west to go east. It is terribly heavy, but that isn't really what I am concerned about right at the moment, there have been several times in fact twice in the last several years that I have tried to get something done on my property, get it rezoned, so I could put something in there. The first time was a mini mart and then a bank. I would like to know why you are pushing this so when I could not get my little piece rezoned. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Betty, do you have an answer? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I do not know if we are pushing this, we have known that, we have had National Church Residences has had this grant for well, we have known about two years I think and that two years we have looked at many pieces of property in this town we have also surveyed the need that is out there. Now, these type of residences cannot happen if they are not close to other facilities, your markets, your churches, public transportation, town water etc. We can do nothing and we can see these seniors living in some of the dangerous conditions that I have seen them in. Front porches that aren't safe to walk on, steps that aren't safe to come down no railings on them or we could make up our mind that we are going to do something good in this town and be a little innovate and take a few chances and we are going to find a place that we can give them a quality of life for it is coming right down to that. Because everybody says not here, not here, not here. The Town of Queensbury is growing, I do not care where you put this you are going to run into traffic problems and we either make up our mind we are going to do something for these people or we are going to say to these people we don't care about you? Queensbury is becoming known as a Westchester of Northern New York if that is what you people out there want Queensbury to be and that is what you want it reserved for then say so now and we will drop all kinds of projects like this. PETE SMITH-I was hoping some of the old citizens that pay taxes for fifty, sixty years there, I had a little piece of property to sell and can't do a thing about it. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-You cannot sell every, I have got property in this town too, we have all got problems we cannot solve every problem we can try to solve as many as we can. We are here tonight to try and solve a problem to meet the needs of certain people in this town who's needs are not being met. Now, either we are going to be a gentle community here where we are considerate of these people or we are going to say, we do not care. PETE SMITH-All I can say is my property, my trouble wasn't tried to hard. We thank you. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Next MS. CORINE TARANA-My name is Corine Tarana, I am shorter than this, I live on Edgewood Drive, I do not live in this community, in this neighborhood that you people are talking about but there is a problem that you may not be aware of that you might want to consider. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-You better speak into the microphone. MS. TARANA-I am trying to address it more to you people that live in this community, than the Town Board, which I think the Town Board should consider as well. The Wilton Community Developmental Center is closing they are going to be looking for places to put handicapped people I have nothing against the Senior Citizens, I have nothing against handicapped, my training is in Special Education. But they are going to be looking for places to place these people they are considered a family. If there are five, six, seven of these developmentally and we are talking the extremely developmentally retarded and disabled. These people are considered a family there are five or six or seven of them, they are not a mother and father and a couple of children, and I have a concern that you are opening up a big possibility for them to move into this community and I think, nothing against Senior Citizens I am all for a project for Senior Citizens but I think you are opening up Queensbury particularly this neighborhood to something that will look real hot to the State. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Next person. Anyone else wish to speak, Kerry? MR. KERRY GIRARD-Kerry Girard, 3 Kline Avenue-Just one question, I am for the site the project itself, I think you are well aware of that. Why are you rezoning the rest of it, it is like you went from one extreme to the other, instead of taking the project and the piece that you need which was a five acre request, you have jumped from an alternative site to this site which is a good site but you want to give the farm away here to the landowner and you want to do big and better things and its kind of in a hurried fashion. I can be appreciative to a master plan for the Town but this now seems to be, being pushed through not just the Senior's project which you are on a time schedule that we are well aware of but not you want to encompass many other things that I do not think you are fully aware of the ramifications of at this point. So, my question to the Board is, why aren't you just considering the Senior Citizens project and the rezoning of the necessary acreage that's all that is required is five acres, why is the full parcel here of twenty plus acres being rezoned, which is going to add a lot of value to that landowner. I realize you are going to tie him up and many restrictions there but at the same token you are adding complications to the application here which as you can see are worrying the residents, the same thing you ran into down on our parcel on our project. You had to worry to the local residents of what's going to happen and that was just five acres with the other fifteen going to go to the Town and nothing going to be done with it. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-This is exactly why the law requires public hearings, because no matter what you do where you do it some one or more people will be concerned so this is the time for everybody to voice their opinion. Mrs. Monahan can give you the answer about the whole parcel. MR. GIRARD-Back to the question, why are you going with the whole parcel in rezoning there? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-The reason for the rezoning of the whole parcel because the owner of the land was, said, I will take this opportunity also to put in some apartments, with the wheel chair accessibility, and the bathrooms that are handicapped accessible the kitchens that can be used by the handicapped. One thing rather flowed to another and made a good overall concept in other words instead of doing just a spot we looked at an overall concept that would flow together and have services that would support each other, and that was the whole plan. This does not as many people keep saying the Master Plan for anyone who would like to read it I hate to take the time to read it all here is one page report by our Senior Planner who this rezoning does follow the goals that are in our Master Plan. MR. GIRARD-My point is your complicating the application here. Don't you think with the time frame that you are under with the Senior Project you would have been better off just addressing the site and the land that is needed, and the project alone and not get into at this present time rezoning the rest of the acreage? Do you think you would be running into the problems you may, it's looks like you are running into again here? That is what I see as the route of your problem this evening, you have gone from one extreme to the other and I guess that ends my comment and you have answered my question but I am just giving some food for thought. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Let me ask you a follow up question? Are you saying that you would personally prefer to see a rezoning of just the five acres with some type of entrance from Manor Drive rather than another road? MR. GIRARD-Personally, I would rather see the spot zoning for just the project. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-It would probably or at least possibly be called spot zoning and it would be a very small piece of property, you couldn't really expand the current zone because the current zone there is a 10,000 sq. ft. zone so you would have create still a five, 5,000 sq. ft. zone. But you are thinking of that as a possible solution rather than doing the whole property. MR. GIRARD-Yes if I was a resident up there and I bordered that property I would be quite concerned. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-That of course would be up to the Church Residences to work out with the owner of the property to see if he would be willing to do that. That is certainly an option that is worth discussing more. MR. GIRARD-I know that is all the church needs, they are looking for their land and their project they really don't care and I think that's what you might be getting caught up in the landowner and the contingencies and all of this back and forth. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Interesting point. Dick? MR. DICK PALMER-Hi, I am Dick Palmer from Queensbury. I hadn't expected this when I came here tonight, but I do have a few questions? In the sewer department, area, that I live in I was told that after all the planning and everything was done, that when it came to tieing into the sewer to the house that the Board hadn't anticipated that it was going to cost so much, but it cost me. These things keep coming up, I am listening and I am reading now, I read today that down at Hovey Pond test were made about the clay and then those test prove that we were going to make lots of money. But we didn't make it because test were taken later and they were no good and then more tests were taken. Now I think I'm hearing you say that Mr. Yarnuwich has suggested strongly that tests be made for percolation, that this point we don't even know, that its acceptable for this, according to the preliminary test and the engineer has suggested for some reason, that it be retested. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, what ... MR. PALMER-The traffic, just a few points I'll make it ... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Excuse me, I just want to clarify the testing. What he is saying is, that as this project builds out for the years, each time you get another section of it built, you're going to have to prove that it can carry the additional density by the additional testing. So if any time that can carry that density, than you can't put more density on it. MR. PALMER -Oh, I think perhaps I understood what you said differently than what you meant. But I heard, I thought, that he suggest even at this point, that it gets tested. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No as it comes for site plan review and this would come for site plan review, is how the sections would be ... MR. PALMER -Well it just seems like alot of planning with, just like up there at the pond, we don't know how deep we're going to go, how far we're going to go or anything like this, and we don't know how many houses we're going to have. I think it should be studied further, I guess what I'm saying. The traffic patterns. .. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I'm just smiling because you're talking to the wrong person about Hovey Pond and the clay because I'm the one that through some of the road blocks up and suggested some of the testing. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-And the election is over and the people have voted. MR. P ALMER-That has nothing to do with the election, does it Steve? No, none at all. I'm concerned, that's alot of money and this is alot of money I think that could come out of my pocket. In 1983 I started a business up on Aviation Road and when I looked to put a permanent place in for my business, I made sure it was not on that side of the Northway, because traffic in 1983 was such that it couldn't exist with my business. It was just too much, my cars, my trucks, I had 6 trucks, couldn't come and go because of the traffic and that was pretty heavy then. I go up there quite frequently now and that's a shame. I think that really we should study it before you go making any definite rezoning for this purpose. Thank you for hearing me. HAROLD RATHBUN-Betty I would like to get on that list, where ever it is, for senior citizens because my ... are approaches 70 which I think the majority of our population now is getting into the older age. My property is getting such that I can no longer care for it and I'm sure my Doctor Evans would attest that I have a heart problem. So I won't be around to take care of it. Now for the past 6 or 7 years, my wife has taken care of her mother in Hudson Falls, she traveled Aviation Road because it's, County Line Road rather, excuse me, because its the least travel road in Town. During that period of time, 2 of our automobiles were totaled by people coming through stop signs and broad siding her. Now the citizens who are concerned with increase traffic, my wife now goes to Super Shop N' Save from just up the road, once a week. I won't be around long so I don't think if we're in a project like this, and I think I represent the average citizen that would be there, that we wouldn't create a traffic problem. Thank you. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Harold, practical suggestion, Barbara Howe, Steve's secretary is keeping a list of interested people. Call and put your name on the list. MR. RA THBUN- Thank you. MR. SWEET -Alright now, you've got 5 acres for senior citizens, right, now you've got 22 acres, you're going to get this all for multi family houses, is that what the idea is? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It will be multi family but you're going to have land taken out for a park and bikeway and etc. MR. SWEET -My suggestion is, if you do rezone the 5 acres for multifamily houses and the rest for residential. Then it won't be so bad, it wouldn't be quite so many apartment houses. You've already got too many apartment houses in that area. The lot across the road there, I suppose that's zoned for multifamily houses too, right? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Across which road? MR. SWEET-(demonstrated on map) See what I'm talking about. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Across Aviation or are you talking about in here? MR. SWEET-Where am I. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-You said you were right here. MR. SWEET-This is an empty lot. What's that zoned for? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I can't tell you without a zoning map here. MR. SWEET -Multi family, I bet you. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I don't know, to be honest with you, because I don't have a map with me. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-It's not in this. That's not in this piece of property. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yes there is a vacant lot there I think but I don't know what the zoning is. MR. SWEET -You're going to have all apartment houses in there. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-So. MR. SWEET-Yea, you don't care, you don't live there, but I do. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-I may live there eventually. MR. SWEET-Yea, well you never can tell. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-If George ever has any medical problems he'll consider living there. MR. SWEET-But that's my suggestion, to change the lot across the road, residential, 5 acres if you're going to do that, and the rest residential. You've got too many multi family houses right in one area, in my opinion and it would be better for traffic. Then on top of this, like fire, Manor Drive, no one ever stops at that stop sign. I almost got hit, I have to stop for everybody generally or step on the gas so they miss me. Then that would cut down a little bit on the traffic. That's my opinion. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-What's that zoned right now. MR. SWEET-Then that would cut down a little bit on the traffic. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It was zoned rural residential 3 acres because what they thought the soil was there from those broad maps ... MR. SWEET-That's my opinion. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- Thank you, your opinion counts, we appreciate it. MR. FULLER-Mrs. Monahan, where is Dixon Road on that map? Is that just to the east? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Dixon Road, you've got to come way up ... COUNCILMAN POTENZA-Right across from Farr Lane, Dixon comes into Aviation. That's Dixon, right at that point is the Getty gas station. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yea, this ought to be, yea Sokol's market, would be here. MR. FULLER-Okay, one of the concerns that I have and I think its very real, obviously the very serious and dangerous situation that our children face as they walk along Dixon Road and what I'm going to question is, how we're going to impact those children with increased traffic down Dixon Road? Dixon Road I think as you understand a main thorough fare to Glens Falls. My children walk along Dixon Road to Kensington Road School. They go to school in Glens Falls and in places they have 14 inches and no more than that, for there, to traffic themselves to school. Now that's not really that big of a concern at this time of year but when it starts to snow, than it's absolutely treacherous. If you're talking about increasing, I know you a have alot of interesting in solving problems but my concern is that by solving one, we might create a couple of other problems. I think if there is no traffic plan, very seriously detailed traffic plan, that will study the impact of that traffic, I would recommend not going forward. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I think your children walking are a separate problem and I'll defer back to Steve and Ron, because I know they worked on this and I understood, Steve, at one time, you got the bus to go up there and the people we're not interested in having their children ride the bus. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- That's my understanding. MR. FULLER-Well there's ... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Which would be the safest way, which is the safest way to take those kids to school. MR. FULLER-I'm not, I don't think I followed that. Was there a reasoning in here that I missed? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I said, I think your children walking to school are a separate problem because that's a very serious problem and ... MR. FULLER-But the fact is that... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-And what I'm saying is, that the solution to your problem with the kids walking to school is what we tried to do by having buses come up there and have them ride a bus to school because they shouldn't be walking along that road. MR. FULLER-Well the fact is Mrs. Monahan, that they walk along that road. We can have a contest here about buses but the fact is, one, there is no bus available, and two, they do walk, and three, if you build this with 90 units and the potential of over 100 new automobiles, a percentage of which will go down Dixon Road on their way to Glens Falls, then you've increased the danger to the children. I think you should consider that as you go forward with this project. I mean, I'm just asking to give that some very serious consideration because the parents in Hidden Hills, Reservoir Park, and I think it wouldn't be a bad idea for our new board members from ward 3 and ward 4, to stand on the corner of Dixon Road and Old Forge and see what kind of traffic goes down that road and that would be ... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-You're absolutely correct and I know that the Planning Board when those subdivisions were approved, tried to get the City of Glens Falls and Queensbury to switch school district boundary lines and the ones that were the most dangerous area to walk, would come to Queensbury and be picked up by a bus and the school districts would not cooperate. I know we have the problem but I'm saymg ... MR. FULLER-They can do cartwheels and back flips but the fact is that it hasn't changed and the danger still exists and I would just like to consider that. If I were to further my comments, its that, wouldn't it be practical, wise and practical, to support existing sewer districts with these kind of projects. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Is what the sewer district is costing now, there's very few residences that can afford them. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-You really don't need them over there. MR. FULLER-Not today. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-When the density gets there, it will be able to support a sewer district but it can't support it now. MR. FULLER-My final comment is to, please, to consider the impact of this project. Do a very detailed planning or a study of traffic patterns and planning because the gentleman who spoke earlier hit a nail squarely on the head. The danger to our children and the danger to our seniors, anyone, walking along that road, Dixon Road, without question, they are, something has to be done. When we got our road, when Dixon Road was repaved, we lost our extended walkway, we just jeopardized our children. I don't think that this is a wise and practical thing to do. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-I think the function of the Planning Board when they put some restrictions and require certain studies to be made prior to installation in any development. MR. FULLER-Well at the time, when we built Queen Victoria's Grant and Dixon Heights, there was no traffic plan required. I don't know if something has happened in the past couple of years to make that a requirement but prior to the construction of Dixon Heights and Queen Victoria's Grant, it was not necessary, it's not required, it was not, nothing was done. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA- That's the Planning Board's problem, I believe. MR. FULLER-It's the children who walk along Dixon Road, it's their problem, George. MR. KUROSAKA-It sure is. MR. FULLER-And I'll just leave it at that. MR. KUROSAKA-I understand your problem because you're in my ward. MR. PHILO-What is the parliamentary procedure if you have something going on like this and you want to get rid of it? What is the proper position to go through? SUPERVISOR BORGOS- The parliamentary procedure is to continue to through the hearing. When the hearing is over, the Board will decide whether it wants to have another hearing, whether it wants to take action tonight or whatever it wants to do. My best guess is, having heard all this information and knowing this Board quite well, is that they're not planning to take any action tonight. My best guess is it will be looked at again, very carefully for all the concerns that are being discussed tonight and at some time, whether it'll be a couple of weeks or a couple of months, it will come back to the Board for some final action. MR. PHILO-I have great concern for what Betty said, for the older people. The only thing that bothers me out of the whole thing, there should be more time study done on it. Betty said for 2 years, right, they had the grant but they've been on Meadowbrook Road, they've been hopping around and each time, you've got to take the proper evaluation to make it an assessment, is this good for this property or not. Okay and if we're going to be good for the Town of Queensbury, Betty, I think you have a wonderful idea, but it's a new within 2 or 3 months, am I right? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, I'd say it's longer than that we've been working on it, wouldn't you Steve, probably? COUNCILMAN MONTESI-At this site? COUNCILMAN POTENZA-Well how long have you been working with, on the project? MR. PHILO-No, not with this project, I'm saying this site. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Just this site? MR. PHILO-Just this site. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I think it was about July. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-This site, probably 3 months roughly. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yes. MR. PHILO-Okay, even if it was 3 months, there's certain criteria that you haven't met as far as, you've got to satisfy this community first that it's going to go through. I think while you've got it up for vote tonight, I think, whatever questions they asked tonight, go back and give them a chance. If it will meet everybody like you said the buffer zone, changing that, fine. So there were a few items that were brought up here tonight ... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yes, I agree with you Tom. MR. PHILO-So if you say, if you give the people 3 months or I think that's plenty of time ... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I don't think we, as far as the National Church Residences, Steve knows this better than I do because he's been in touch with Jerry Solomon's office, if we're going to put the National Church Residence building up, I don't think we have 3 months to rezone that land. Now Steve probably knows that better than I do. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-You'll have to conduct a new hearing if you go 3 months because there's four of us who won't be here in 3 months. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-My best guess is that you have probably at the outside, 2 months to make a decision. If the decision is favorable, it appears that the funding would go through. Actually the funding is assured, I've spoken with Gary Douglas in Jerry's office. MR. PHILO-When did he say the... SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Ifthe decision is no for this property, the project is totally gone forever from Queensbury. That is absolutely guaranteed. MR. PHILO-How long is it going to take you to meet this, satisfy these questions, so everybody is happy? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-It's up to the Planning Department and Betty's pushing it. COUNCILMAN MONTESI -First of all, everybody is never going to be happy. MR. PHILO-I can see that Mr. Montesi. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Tom, if I had Town water, I'd put this down on my farm. MR. PHILO-There's room for it Betty. There's room for it and that would be a nice spot. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yes and I bet you, I'd get complaints in the neighborhood although there's loads of land there. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Where's the water at Hiland? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-We'll make it stretch. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-How much would it cost to water the farm? MR. PHILO-In other words I'm just saying there should be some time, just to satisfy the people, fine, answer these traffic and like the barrier ... SUPERVISOR BORGOS-The Town Board just voted to extend the Town water to Mrs. Monahan's farm. MR. PHILO-Beautiful Betty, I'm going to move in. No, what I'm saying is, there seems to be a big dispute over rezoning, like Mr. Smith, I met him over here a long time ago and I remember when the poor guy was trying to get his zoned. All of sudden they hop up and they're going to change this rezoning in 2 minutes. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-This isn't in 2 minutes. MR. PHILO-No but it's close. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, I mean it's gone through the Planning Boards and I mean it's been taken some time, believe me. MR. PHILO-Just show some validation why Mr. Smith can't get it then all of sudden this thing can fly in a matter of 3 months or 1 meeting. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Rezoning, it's not being done in 1 meeting, we've had this in front of us for quite some time. Rezoning is often done for social needs, it's not done for other type of needs. MR. PHILO-I'm just a concerned citizen that only comes once in a while and you're probably saying, thank god, he don't come again for another year. But I would like to see the thing treated right and I don't think the traffic is right. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Tom, you know there's nobody that wants to not treat this right believe me, that's why we're having a public ... MR. PHILO-Because I was superintendent on Lord Howe Estate and that was a 2 million, 1 million grant on the first and a million on the other and as superintendent I see what the tax payers of Ticonderoga had to go through and they're stay paying for the mistakes. Yes. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I don't know what you mean, I'm only familiar with the ones in Whitehall and Granville, I don't know anything about Ti. MR. PHILO-Lord Howe Estates is the name of the project. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I don't think that's comparable to this, it's not a National Church Residences. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-I know but it was a different project Tom, it was federally funded project, the Lord Howe Estates. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But not the National Church Residences. MR. PHILO-Right, that's why I asked him to start with. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-This is not, National Church ... MR. PHILO-And it's nothing that I'd love to see this old timer in over there anyway. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-Well maybe he wants to live there. MR. PHILO-He said he wanted something nice. I mean with that type of construction, George knows what I'm talking about. We call it chicken coop valley down in Glens Falls. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-Well I think your not comparing apples to apples, you really aren't. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-I think you're mixing projects. MR. PHILO-That's why I asked if it was stick framed. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-In all honesty and I said this when Mr. Girard came before us looking to rezone his property, just go to Whitehall, just go to Granville, look at the setup. Just take 2 minutes, they would be delighted to show it to you see what a terrific complement it would bring this town, is this the right location, maybe not is Girards the right location maybe not is there a perfect location guaranteed not. Somebody's got to give something, sometime. That is basically what we are saying and tonight you have come up with a lot of concerns, and a lot of ideas I can hear my constituents screaming no, alright and I understand that, they are not saying no I do not want it, they are going to say no with mitigating circumstances we will look at it. The best thing that has come across this table so far is zone it five acres, put the road in off of Manor Drive and everyone is going to be happy and that's, feasible. MR. PHILO-Mr. Borgos came up with a good buffer zone, so... COUNCILMAN POTENZA-If we zone the five acres you do not need the buffer zone because it will not be near Farr Road or Fox Farm Road. MR. PHILO-Did they come up with some kind of blue print of what they, how they are going to structure this thing? COUNCILMAN POTENZA-Construction wise? MR. PHILO-Yes as far as ... COUNCILMAN POTENZA-The construction of it I do not know. I do not know Tom because I got enough to handle rezoning, if you want to talk construction go to the other board. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-You go to the Planning Board if you want to get into construction. MR. PHILO-What I am saying is, so far you tell be it is going to be a beautiful project, I say in Glens Falls they said the same thing down there. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-But, don't compare it to Glens Falls Tom because it is not the same. MR. PHILO-I want to see what it looks like. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-Well we'll get you, have your neighbor send you a picture because she has them. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-I'm sure the Planning Department has the blue prints. MR. PHILO-Betty, you got the blue prints? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I don't know what happened to those ones they presented that night. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-What we know right now Tom, it's one building similar to the one that they showed us when Mr. Girard's property was in front of us. Probably the identical building, right? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It's an L shaped building. MR. PHILO-What is it, is it 6 inch studs, 4 inch studs or 2 inches? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Oh come on Tom, we don't get into those kind of things. MR. PHILO-But I'm trying to ask ... COUNCILMAN MONTESI-It's not modular, it's stick built. MR. PHILO-Very good, I ask the 6 of them, I finally get an answer from the guy that's going out of Town. Thank you. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Steve, I would suggest if we don't have any new thoughts that people want to say, that maybe it's time to conclude this because alot of people are here for the budget and I'm sure they want to get into the budget. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Well that's the problem, we have multiple hearings but again, we've always run totally open meetings and we stay as long as we have to, nobody enjoys it ... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But I think some of our audience doesn't want to stay, they're here for the budget. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Well ... COUNCILMAN POTENZA-It's important to them. MR. PHILO-Well could you table this thing for a while and make sure all these questions are answered, is what I'm saying. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well I think we've already said, we don't intend to take any actions tonight. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-There will be no vote tonight. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-We're not going to take any action tonight Tom. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-We're anxious to hear, everyone has come out, we're anxious to hear everyone's comments. We've never had a time limit for anybody and I would not propose to impose a time limit tonight. Just stay here until we hear everybody say what they want, we'll go away tonight, I'm sure there will be no action tonight. MR. PHILO-Thank you. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-You're welcome. Mr. Kenny next and then in the back, please. MR. KENNY - I happen to like here, to just rezone the 5 acres, I don't know if the owner of the land will go for that, I think he's looking for something. If he is, I think that's the best way to approach this. I have one comment on time, whether its money with the alliance of church whatever this thing is it has to be done in two months there was one other time in the past that I have been before this board with the rezoning of a project and it had to be this way and right a way because time was of the essence and they were going to start building and they wanted to build that spring. And because it got zoned and everything got pushed through so quickly, I believe there were law suits slapped on the people and everything else and now it's in courts. I don't think we rezone anything because of time. I think we should really take the time and look at it properly. I don't think money should be the issue of getting the grant approved. If we can do within the time frames and do right the job, fine. But I would... COUNCILMAN POTENZA-But Dave, what comes first the chicken or the egg? We've got a project and we have a chance to finance it with federal monies for 2 million dollars that will make it affordable to the average senior in this Town. I'm not talking big rentals. MR. KENNY-I'm not saying we can't get it done within the 2 months that Mr. Borgos has said. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-Well you know how it is. MR. KENNY-I'm saying, than maybe we need to put more work in it in the next 2 months. I think the questions should be answered. The sewers or the septics should be tested. We should have documents and when we do, we have a firm leg to stand on. Or we can say, we, you know, the engineer says, go out there and have the test done, the owner of the land is going to have to take some risk. Say, look we're considering ... but these are questions that were asked and we feel as a Board they have to be answered before we're willing to rezone it. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Dave, if this Board feels that just the 5 acres with 1 building and 40 units on it, is all we're going to rezone, then the septage and the sewage becomes a very small issue because you're impacting 5 acres with 1 building. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-On 22 acres. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Not the 22 acres and that makes some good sense for us to consider that. MR. KENNY-I'm agreeing with that. I would agree with that, I think your legal department has got to word it so that when it is done and I think the owner of the land has the incumbrance now, to get that rezoned, before it gets rezoned, to get the test done and satisfied some of the concerns. COUNCILMAN MONTESI -Right. MR. KENNY-He's the one that were doing a favor. Now if we're going to do the favor ... COUNCILMAN POTENZA-I don't know, your doing a favor for 40... MR. KENNY-Well we're doing a favor for the senior citizens, we're doing a favor for the Town also, the Town needs it. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-That's it, alright. Exactly, that point should be made. MR. KENNY-But I think it's incumberant on him to ... COUNCILMAN MONTESI-To do the rest. MR. KENNY-To do some research and put some money into the project. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-Absolutely. COUNCILMAN MONTESI -Okay. MR. KENNY-That's all and I think we should carefully, the reason shouldn't be, well the money is there, we got to do it within 2 months because the money is there. We should still do right. Maybe you should work harder on doing it ... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I don't think it's ever been done that way Dave. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Maybe we have to do the project on 5 acres in 2 months and let Mr. Bryan come in for the balance over a period of time. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-Right. MR. KENNY-Right and then the balance should go back to 10,000 square, the 10 and not the 5, I don't know. There's alot of other questions to be answered, I think there should be more work looked into it. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-That's a possibility. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-There sure is, that's why we've got this input. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-Ifyou wait until the new Board seats itself, in January do it ..., start all over agaIn. MR. KENNY-I'm not saying that. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-These hearings are invalid, because they can't sit on the hearings on this. MR. KENNY - I said, all I'm saying is, maybe it can be done within a month. Maybe it can be done within a month. Maybe it would cost, when projects get done, the faster you want to get them done, generally the more cost to the owner. Maybe you have to have 3 engineers go out there and work ..., if time is of the essence, generally it will cost somebody a little more money to get the proper work done that quick. You know, if I hire you as an engineer and your backed up for the next 3 months and I can't get a study done for 3 months, but if I walk in there and give you an extra 50,000 dollars, you make it'll next week. You put 6 guys out on the field. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-I'd like to get a fee like that. My fees don't run that high. MR. KENNY-The economy is time, basically. You can get things done very quick if you want to spend the money. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Next please. MR. SHAMES-The question you asked, I really have a question, you asked the attorney before if you were going to make any changes, did you have to advertise this again, what does that mean? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-In some things that we do as the Town Board if changes are made, you do have to re-advertise and that's why I asked him, if we're talking about these type of changes, did we have to re-advertise. There would just be further restrictions on the land. MR. SHAMES-Okay, but that doesn't mean that if this gets tabled right now, that there would not be an advertisement in the paper to, another meeting with the community involved? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Ifthere's another public hearing, there would be an ad. If the Board decides after having heard all this, that the restrictions, and see if I'm correct, the restrictions are, either, more restrictive than what's here... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Like the buffer zone. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Or if they constitute a major or significant change, than there would have to be another public hearing. Is that correct? ATTORNEY DUSEK-Right. The operation of the way these things work is that the proposed zoning amendment which was advertised in the paper and then yielded to this public hearing, the law minimally requires that they have at least one public hearing. Following that public hearing, if the Board wanted to adopt it as is, at any time, either tonight or in the future, they would not have to have any further public hearings or give any further notice because there's just nothing under the law that would mandate that. However, if they were going to make some kind of change and if the change is significant then they would have to hold another public hearing before they could adopt it. If they were going to a minor change, for instance, as I think Mrs. Monahan was indicating a little earlier, she asked me the question, which I understood to be, well, if we wanted to make a buffer zone of 150 feet, keeping the same concept, same size land, basically the same only bringing in a buffer zone, it's my opinion that that's a type of minimal change, it does not require a further public hearing. But if they were to change this project from it's current status say, to go to the 5 acre project, than they would have to have another public hearing. MR. SHAMES-Okay because I just don't want to see this thing railroaded in because it sounds like a good idea. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I don't think we want to railroad it in. MR. SHAMES-I don't want to look through rose colored glasses either I want to be able to look at everything. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-Nobody is here to railroad anything, we're here to listen. MR. SHAMES-Okay, well I think we've got some really serious decisions to make and I think there's alot of planning that has to be done and just because it's time, I don't think we should just go forward and do it. It sounds like a great idea but I'm starting to lean towards the 5 acres myself. But I would really like another public hearing on this thing. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- Thank you. TED BIGELOW-Resident of South Glens Falls, Vice-President of Woodbury Development Group and Executive Director of Homefront's Development Group here in Queensbury and Glens Falls. First a question. Betty, the adjoining zoning for the 5 acres, not the entire parcel, to the lower part, I'm assuming it would be the easterly part of the site, is that already zoned multi family? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-This right here? (demonstrating on map) This is multi family, I'm not sure about this vacant lot but I'm assuming that it's multi family. Without a zoning map, I don't want to say that's a positive fact. MR. BIGELOW -So if the 5 acres were added to that multi family zone, you wouldn't be guilty of spot zoning, is that correct? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It would be a different, yea, we would have to, to meet National Church Residences requirement, it's got to go to MR5, that's URlO in front. MR. BIGELOW-Not prepared to speak on the rezoning of the entire parcel, I guess I'll limit my comments to the project itself. Back 2 or 3 years ago this Town to a complete revision of their master plan and redid their zoning. They effectively made alot of their housing in this Town more expensive by going to single family lots, 1 acre requirements. It's made it very difficult to do affordable housing in this Town. I'm very familiar with this type of project. I have no direct or indirect affiliation with this project in other groups that I'm affiliated with. I have had direct affiliation with National Church Residences, I've worked with them on projects before. They're a top notch organization, they're management are with the Methodist Church, they're based out of Columbus Ohio. The program that this is financed under, is the HUD section 202 program. It is by the way, the same financed mechanism that was used for Lord Howe, wherever that gentleman went, up in Ticonderoga and I'll addressed the problems that they are having up there in just a minute because it has nothing to do with the financing. This program is very, very important to this Town. There's a terrific social need in this for elderly housing, affordable housing. The HUD 202 program provides the construction financing, the mortgage financing and it also provides a deep subsidy for the rentals for the people that live there. You will have low and moderate income senior citizens living there because they're the people who can't afford to live in Queensbury and they are the people who live here now and they're going to be moving into this project. From a traffic standpoint, there is no concern. I've been involved in several of these projects in Waterford, Granville, Whitehall and over in Vermont, they do not generate any traffic at all. Most of these people don't even have cars. Most of the people that will come to this project are your service providers, doctors and health care professionals. Very few cars and if you go to your high rise projects in Glens Falls and you look at the number of units within those high rises compared to the few number of cars you see out in the parking lots, traffic is no concern for this particular project. I think there's a need. I think you should find a way to support the project to get it through. I will tell you that it is time sensitive. I know that, being directly involved in putting these packages together. There are 4 or 5 of these projects awarded in New York State every year, because the competition for them is so keene, because they are such a good program for the elderly. This one I think was granted to National Church Residences about 2 years ago. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yes. MR. BIGELOW-Part of that process is that they have to demonstrate site control. If they don't have site control, when that application goes in, they don't even get looked at. When this application went in, they demonstrated site control and I'm not sure where the first site was, whether it was Kerry's or where it was. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, it was another one. MR. BIGELOW-Okay, that fell through. They've been working on this now for over 2 years, if they don't show site control with proper zoning, they're going to lose this project and you'll never see it again because the financing just isn't there for it. If this Town cares about providing good quality housing for their senior citizens, they should find a way to compromise to do this rezoning to do this project. The next thing you should understand is that, if you rezone that 5 acres for that project, that does not give that project approval, it has to go before the Planning Board for site plan review and that's where you get all your technical questions answered, all your engineering. You're approving that use, your saying yes, we think that's a good place for it but that doesn't mean it's going to happen. Now they have to go out and do the specific tests to see if the land has the carrying capacity to provide for the septic systems. That's when those questions get answered and that's where they do a good site plan review for your parking, your greenery, your buffering, the buildings, everything. So all you are doing by rezoning is approving a use, not the project. The project is approved, it still has to go through a very lengthy process and that's where the Planning Board and the technical people of the Town and their engineers get to really tear it apart and make it work. I will tell you that the project up in Ticonderoga, I had direct involvement with that when I worked with Avalon Associates, which did the 202 financing on that one, that project was a godsend to that Town and it's the same type of housing. The problem up there was a poor site plan review by the Town. There was problems with construction with the soils where it wasn't designed properly. That's the difference but it is the same financing mechanism, same exact program and it's providing good senior housing for their people up there and we desperately need it here. I think if this Town lets this particular project fall by the way side because they couldn't find a site, an appropriate site, in the Town of Queensbury given it's huge size, I think that's a terrible atrocity. I'll make one last comment, one lady back here made the statement that Wilton Development Center was closing down and that is correct. The State is deinstitutionalizing some of their people but by rezoning this it has no effect on that because she was right in her statement that, when they go out and they do a house, these people, they put 6, 8, 10 handicapped people in it, they're considered single family by law because they knew they would have these type of problems. They don't need this rezoning. They can go build one of these houses up in the Pines or Hidden Hills, anywhere where there is single family zoning, it doesn't have to be multi family zoning. If they want to go down and buy an existing house on Fox Hollow Road, they can do that and there isn't a danm thing you can do about it because it's set up that way because the State knows they have these kinds of problems, providing good housing for handicapped people. I would just say that because it is so time sensitive, that the Town should act quickly or I'm afraid they are going to lose the grant and the deep subsidy that they have for this particular project. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Ted, I want to say something else because I've been inside the complex in Whitehall. I think they are probably the best designed apartments that I ever been into and the most flexible apartments. I talked to very many of the people in there and they were happy, happy people to be living in that place. MR. BIGELOW-I will tell you that having been directly involved with these projects, I just did a senior citizen project down in Phoenicia through the farmers home program about 2 years ago, where as when people get older and they live in their single family homes and are on limited incomes, they tend to become shut-ins. These are the greatest social things in the world, they stay active and they stay healthy and they're good for them. The other thing it does, it puts some more houses on the market because they sell their houses. I think it's really a godsend and you ought to find a way to compromise soon before you lose it to keep it within the Town of Queensbury because you'll never get it back once it's gone. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I agree with you Ted and Steve and I have probably looked at and evaluated and had the Planning Department evaluate, I would say 6 or 8 different parcels of land this summer. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-I've looked at alot more than that. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yes, but that we've really had an evaluation done for the soils and facilities and so on and so forth and to us, this one far met the needs of the people the best. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Anyone else for the second time or the third time? MR. GIRARD-Just a couple of questions Betty knowing the process of how this has to go through the application. Do you know if HUD has approved this site yet? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It's my understanding it is. MR. GIRARD-Have you had any confirmation, when you say that's your understanding? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-All I know that, is, I have sat down and talked with the consultant from National Church Residences. MR. GIRARD-Okay, because that's the procedure. That has to go before HUD and it takes about 30 days and they have to approve this site before they authorize the financing for it. Correspondence from 30 days ago, from Jerry Solomon's office, to myself, is that my parcel was still the primary parcel on file which surprised me. So I don't know what's going on, whether we're sitting here with a loaded gun waiting to see what's going to happen or the landowner. Do you know if that landowner has come to an option agreement with National Church Residences yet? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-I understand that has happened. We have not been, I have not been involved in that. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, I have not been either because I think that's improper for the Town to get involved in the financial arrangements. MR. GIRARD-Well the procedure would be then, an option should be gone into an agreement. Then from there, HUD will assess the site. Not until you have an option, will HUD do an assessment. So if the option has been granted, I would say HUD has done, either in the process or very soon should have, agreed on the site. To me that's a prerequisite before you people take it any further. IfHUD hasn't approved it, why is even the Town looking at it. So it would pay to follow up on it with National Church Residences to get up to date with what's going on at their end because you may be creating your own headache when you don't need to. Secondly I've heard some things about, brought to the table tonight, concentrate on the 5 acres and possibly extend Manor Drive through what's come out in the paper, what not. If there's any extension to the road or water, is the Town and the taxpayers going to incur any of that cost? SUPERVISOR BORGOS- That would all be decided upon at the time the options are known. The piece that was being looked at on Farr Lane, the extension ofFarr Lane, was for a road to be constructed probably by the Town of a length of approximately 75 feet which would be just an extension ofFarr Lane. That would put it back enough to get started. MR. GIRARD-Isn't that quite a contradiction to Town policy for any subdivision and development in this township? Aren't you making quite a concession here? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-If you want my candid opinion, I think if the Town is not willing to do something for our elderly, expect all other levels of government to do something, than we're not doing our job. I think it's a very small thing to do, 75 feet of roadway. MR. GIRARD- Well let's compare apples to apples also Betty. You know I have just as much history on this file as you do and I'm seeing 2 different colors here. I'm seeing other private developers come up here and I'm also a home builder in the Town of Queensbury and had to pay for the sewer to come across the street to my property where many other people in the neighborhood had it put to their property for free. I've heard other people come up and say the same thing. I've heard other private developers come up and say they've been shot down. I've seen other developers have to pay for their own roads, have to pay for all their own sewer. Granted this a good project, it's a tax exempt project but the people in my neighborhood did alot of complaining about the cost. Are we going to bear any cost and we explained to them it was a HUD project, and no, you wouldn't bear the cost, it's a federally funded project. I think it was hard for them to accept that. From what I'm hearing here and what I read in the papers, I can see some direct costs that the Town is going to do some things for this, for this site. It's the same company, it's just a different site and all of a sudden we're willing to do all these things and we all directly know who is going to bear that cost. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Kerry, there was a proposal that was put forth at one point for that 75 feet. Not all Board members agreed to that simply because of your concern. I, for one, did not feel comfortable setting a precedent that I would put a road in for whoever. I viewed the seniors, the church group, as a developer. If I did it for them, why wouldn't I not do it for any other developer in Town who has, bringing homes or apartments or whatever to my community. We approved a 40 unit affordable housing project. Why wouldn't we put the road in for them? Seventy-five feet by fifty feet, yes, small amount, it's also going to have to be a 75 foot main put to there. Then it would be the responsibility of the developer to get that road down to that 5 acre parcel. That's a pretty good size road there. There was some concern with other members of the Board with that proposal so I don't want you or the public to think that that was cast in concrete, there was some very deep concern about that small aspect, of the Town subsidizing a part of it. You know, Mrs. Monahan makes a good case though, I mean for seniors or for affordable senior projects, it's something the Town should do. It wasn't set in everybodies mind that that was a good idea. So that still is open for consideration. MR. GIRARD-Well that's good to hear but those agreements are made at the Town Board level or at the Planning Board? COUNCILMAN MONTESI-That would be a Town Board level because somebody has to spend funds from the highway or the general fund to do that. MR. GIRARD-Okay, well that's a concern of mine, if you're making agreements and concessions, I think the public needs to know. Again, you are at a new site, you had a prior site, that prior site, I'll make a public statement, is still available. I say this is a good site but I don't want to see the Town having to spend more money than it would have had to spend at a prior site. There's no need for that and the same issues are being brought up tonight of a greater magnitude and that's why I brought up the idea about why your rezoning the rest of the land, you're creating your own traffic problem. That project does not create traffic problems. Anyone that's knowledgeable about the project will admit to that. That is not a traffic generating project. By itself, it's a good site, it's a great site and it's a good project and you're just going to create your own problems here. Another problem you're creating is bending over backwards and spending costs that you don't need to. It's a well funded project. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Well take into consideration and I'm not casting stones but if you were the owner of the property and had asked for it to be rezoned and it just didn't get done or asked for it not to be changed and then the Town was looking for a 5 acre parcel and of the 5 acres, you own 24, it would be convenient to do and fit the scheme of things and do the whole thing over. MR. GIRARD-His property has already been rezoned in your recent master rezoning plan. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Yes ... MR. GIRARD-He bought it, he owns it, he knows what he can do with it. It's a really good value to him to do what you are doing. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Right, well what I'm saying is, it's convenient if he could get the whole thing done. But if the Town says no, we're only interested in the 5 acres, he may not want to do the project at all. But that's a gamble we take. MR. GIRARD-Well so be it, you'll see the true colors come out and what he thinks about this project, won't you? COUNCILMAN MONTESI-We certainly will. MR. GIRARD-Okay. MS. MARQUARDT-I just have one question. The focus of discussion this evening has shift from the large parcel to the small parcel and now you're talking about the small parcel as if it was still, was exclusively senior citizens. Is that true? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It is, that's a HUD grant. MS. MARQUARDT-Okay, so if you go, that would be just senior citizens? COUNCILMAN POTENZA-Yes, that would be strictly senior citizens for affordable ... COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Yes, five acres, one building. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That is your HUD 202 grant for a 41 unit apartment house. MS. MARQUARDT-Okay, now senior citizens or handicapped? COUNCILMAN MONTESI-No just seniors. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-No, strictly senior citizens. MS. MARQUARDT-Okay, thank you. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-The rest of the project sort of confuses the issue. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Anyone else? One more time, anyone else? Okay, I'll declare the public hearing closed. PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED 9:21 P.M. TOWN BOARD agreed not to take any formal action tonight, planning for further review. PUBLIC HEARING - 1992 TENTATIVE BUDGET 9:35 P.M. Notice Shown SUPERVISOR BORGOS opened public hearing, all people who want to be heard will be heard once first and then people will be heard a second time and we'll go through 3, 4, 5 times, whatever you want, speak as long as you want to, say whatever you want to, we'll stay here as late as we have to. This is obviously a very important item. With that said, who would like to be first? JOHN POLNAK-I'm the Executive Director of the Glens Falls Queensbury Historical Association and we operate the Chapman Historical Museum. My points, are two fold. One, I'd like to sincerely thank the Queensbury for the past support. You're money really has made a significant difference in what the Chapman does and how we do it. Secondly I would like to strongly encourage you to support the Chapman at the recommended level of 17,000 dollars. There are many fine, fine organizations in this area, we really are blessed. However the Chapman is unique. We are the only organization that preserves and interprets the shared heritage of the entire population and although our, Chapman's boundaries are much broader, Queensbury is are, certainly our biggest pocket of population. The Chapman is also an important and growing organization. If you haven't been to the Chapman in the last year and a half, then your impressions are wrong. Since then, the carriage house has been moved. We've gone from being a very modest historical house into being a true museum complex and very recently that modest historical house has been renovated and it is now a state of the art historical site that compare favorably to other organizations. I would also like to stress that, not only have the facilities been up graded but also our programming and our exhibits. We're really trying to expand and reach out to the community. Some of the recent exhibits, the history of exhibits, we've done a show on immigrants to this region and that was up until last spring. We've also done, that was succeeded by a show on the Civil War and how it effected the Glens Falls, Queensbury region. In other areas we've done art shows from professional artist like Nathan Farbe to amateur artist like Jerry Competition to very in between artists, the Adirondack Guild. We also have the Stoddard Collection. We have a gallery devoted to that, we are the largest holders of the Stoddard Collection. Seneca Ray Stoddard is our National known figure and we are nationally known because of our holdings. Our programs are also going along in the same vein. Our attendance is 12,000 approaching 15,000 this year, 4,000 of them are school children. For now, it's all free and open to the public, school programs. We also do adult progranuning, lecturing. We have noon time lectures, history and lunch series. Both of them have been on the immigrants, both series. As we speak we have a program going on the Civil War series, 80 to 100 people attend that. We do alot of out reach programs. Is the Queensbury funding important to the Chapman? It's crucial. Last year, New York State funding, supported 16 percent of our overall budget. Next year, it will be less than 2. In real dollars, that means 1 and 1/2 people, staff people. A decrease in funds from Queensbury will have serious repercussions in our operation for next year. The message is clear from New York State. We have to support ourselves and our constituents have to support us. What is the Chapman doing? We're aggressively seeking to expand our membership and our corporate membership. We're feverishly running grants. We're trying to find underwriters for our projects and we're also seeking local public support and that's why I'm here. Our constituents are your constituents, we cater to the same people. Again, I strongly urge you to approve the recommendation of the 17,000, the money will be well spent. Thank you. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- Thank you. Let me just say one thing, I forgot, it's my fault, I overlooked it. The Board will take no action tonight on the budget. This is a public hearing. We're here to get your input. We may ask you some questions, you may ask some questions, but don't expect any formal action. I meant to say that ahead of time. SUSAN GOETZ-My question regards the cost of finishing the Hovey Pond project and has that been addressed in the proposed budget? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Hovey Pond project is a capital project. The capital project has been funded so far in a couple of different ways. It's funded through the recreation fees from the developers. It has also to a large extent been indirectly funded from the landfill closure account by virtue of the fact the materials being extracted from Hovey Pond have gone to the landfill for closure. The whole has gotten bigger. There has been no charge then to that particular project, the project is just appearing, it's going to the landfill. How the rest of it is funded, will be up to the Board, which ever Board is involved at that point. There's really one major item left to go and that major item is the construction of a new dam and spill way based on the Department of Environmental Conservation standards and through the Division of Dam Safety. Exactly how expensive that will be is unknown. The estimate is 200 to 250,000 dollars. The proposal had been to sell more top soil, to help pay for most if not all of that. That's a more recent proposal. Earlier proposals, going back many years, called for this to be funded on an annual basis directly out of Town tax payers money. It was determined at that time, that the 900,000 dollar total cost was too much. There is no direct money in this budget for finishing Hovey Pond. If it is to be finished next year and we believe that the present schedule would say, some time next summer, water back in the pond, everything ready to go. It would depend, at that point, on how much topsoil if any has been sold. There has been some sold. If there isn't money from that source, the Board sitting at that time, would have to decide on several funding options. One of those, to take more money from the developers fund. Another option would be to go to the bonding route, to do bond anticipation notes or full bonding for the dam. Beyond the dam, there should not be too much big number construction required. Earlier proposals talked to about a major filtration and sedimentation basin structure which estimated the cost some where in the access of 100,000 dollars. More recent concepts have said that probably we can get by just by putting a ditch of sorts, essentially a filtration basin on either side of Route 9 at Halfway Brook. Easy clean, easy to watch, not disruptive to the backyards of individuals. If that's the case and we believe that to be the case, that number will be smaller. It will be up to the Board sitting at the time to determine whether to bond the entire project or to fund in some other fashion. Answer to your question, it is not provided for as such in this budget as we typically do not provide for capital construction projects. MIKE BRANDT -Over by West Mountain, where it's snowing tonight. Steven, in the Hovey Pond project, it's normal for the Town to contribute money to a capital projects account as part of it's normal budget and then that can, once it's in the capital account be spent. It's my understanding, there's less or about 200,000 dollars of recreational fees left in that capital account, so we are looking at 50,000 dollar short fall just for the dam and spill way. We are looking at a less than a 100,000 dollars as you now described for a sedimentation basin and undoubtedly there is going to have to be something done to finish the surrounding area. I'm sure that there is going to be 300,000, 400,000 dollars needed in there and I hate to see us say that the next the administration has to borrow money to do that. I would rather face it now and provide for it. I think also, my greatest concern in looking at the budget is the landfill budget. There really, we're showing a revenue of 2,250,000 dollars and it's my understanding that that revenue is from user's fees. That's the very last page of the budget of the whole document, the very last page. Two million, two hundred fifty thousand dollars of income as user's fees if that were paid by user's last year and if we in the coming year have exactly the same number of user's that we had last year, we about 90,000 users, 90,000 visits where people used the transfer station. If you divide that out, that means that were expecting to see 25 dollars per user per time he goes there. That's not going to happen. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-No and ... MR. BRANDT -We all know it's not going to happen because if we expected that to happen and if we enforced it, we would have, it would be costing us 40 dollars a ton to pick up the trash out of the woods and from over the sides of the roads and we can't let that happen. So what, now that 2,250,000 dollars as I understand would be used for several items. It would be used for the operation of the transfer station, that is staffing and operation of the transfer stations. It would be used for the landfill operation and we do have to run a landfill. There's a question of exactly what that will cost us because other Towns may come into it and the amount of hours that we run it could be severely changed one way or the other, history will tell us that. It will be used, this money will be used for the landfill closure and the landfill closure we are committed to and we need to do it, that's the 10 acres that's underway at this point. I think we have to really be careful here between now and when we adopt this budget of adequately funding here because if we don't adequately fund for what we have to do, we're going to create a crisis, a financial crisis for the Town unparallel. I know that there is tremendous apprehension within the employees of the Town that there will be massive layoffs. I had a few minutes to talk to some of those employees and I don't foresee massive layoffs but if we had a million dollar deficit built in here, I'm afraid that there would be massive layoffs and it would be forced on us. I think we have to look at it very carefully and I suggest that we get immediately into a program to weigh, we just established new fees, we just reopened the transfer station, we need immediately a history of what's really happening. How much material are we getting in by weight because we know it's costing us about 5 cents a pound to handle it, to get rid of it, to go through the burn plant. What surplus are we generating. We're going to have to do some very fast accounting here and we can't miss an opportunity and address this and I ask you to do that and I ask you to keep us informed and if you don't mind I would like to also approach the landfill operation and talk to them directly if that's alright with you and if I have your blessings. To me it is the most, potentially the most damaging thing we have in our budget, the rest of the budget I don't have much comment on. I just ask you to focus on it very carefully because it's an enormous need. Thank you. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Thank you. I would like to respond to some of your points by saying, as you mentioned, as of this morning, we reopened the transfer stations so we're in full operation. As of this morning, a total new era began in the history of solid waste in the Town of Queensbury. The way we do things is totally different. Things have been changing on a daily basis, perhaps an hourly basis as the Warren County Solid Waste Committee has met over and over, at the Warren Washington Counties Joint Solid Waste Committee has met over and over, as the Industrial Development Agency has met over and over, as DEC has come in and gone out. This budget was calculated on the philosophy and the concept of a user fee, that concept has worked beautifully for the last 2 years. It's worked so well in fact that the Town of Queensbury's general tax base people have paid no dollars into the landfill account. Actually there was a slight profit if you will during 1990 and I expect the same thing in 1991. That profit obviously just sits in the landfill fund and then goes on year after year. If the amount of material coming to the landfill dramatically differs from what we've projected, in being lower, than our expenses will be proportionately lower because the major part of the 2,250,000, a million five, is direct fee to the burn plant. We set fees officially yesterday to start this morning, that were based on our best estimate of how many bags of garbage and what the weight of the garbage would be going in per container, going to the burn plant. That estimate was not only ours, that estimate was based on an account taken by the, account projected by the Warren County DPW Superintendent, Fred Austin, who is an engineer, who spent a great deal of time working on this. Interestingly enough, he projected approximately 1,000 to 1,200 bags, 32 gallon bags of garbage or solid waste per 40 cubic yard trailer. Our Solid Waste Superintendent did his own study and in 2 different locations, he counted the numbers. In one location I believe there was 1,241 bags, in another location, there was 1,100 and some bags so approximately 1,200 bags. It was also calculated on approximately as I recall a 20 pound per bag average. Jim Coughlin did the studies in 2 places counted the bags, the number of cars, he came up with a 18.7 pounds per bag average. After they took the load with x number of bags to the burn, not to the burn plant but to scales at Torrington, weighed it and then they calculated it. The numbers seem to be holding right on the button. What will probably change, is that as people understand they're going to be paying by the bag, they're going to start compacting. Now if enough people compacting, they're going to distort the numbers. That's why the Town Board by simple resolution can adjust the rates if necessary. But at the moment, the 2 dollar a bag rate for the 32 gallon bag is set. Some homeowners, generally senior citizens with 1 or 2 people who make 1 trip, once every 2 weeks with 1 bag, have been paying 3 dollars per trip, they'll now be paying 2 dollars. Very few people, I admit, but some will be in that category. Other people with many, many bags with garbage have said to me, well, we're just not going to bring so much garbage in. That's not a bad idea. Reduce, reuse and recycle. As long as we don't throw it on the roads. So we've got the off setting problem of more litter. This budget is built, again on that particular philosophy, but if things change, it can be changed instantly. There is no possibility if we watch this carefully for the Town to get seriously in debt or in debt at all. There's enough room here that if our projections are 50 percent off, there still will be enough revenue out of the 2 dollar charge per bag to cover the operations and maintenance cost that are fixed costs. There's also 50 cents per bag or 25 percent of the revenue set aside for the landfill closure. Now the landfill closure has been projected all the time to cost between 4 and 8 million dollars. So far we've spent approximately 450,500,000 dollars, roughly on the landfill closure. There is at this moment or as of 3 days ago, just over 1 million dollars still in the closure fund. If we get, assume for a minute we get the kind of volume we're talking about, we would be adding to that closure fund, 750,000 dollars a year. Now if we add 750 for 2 years, that's a million and a half. We've already spent a half million roughly, we've got a million there. So we're going to be at 3 million dollars that the Town would have available 2 years from now total including some that's spent. Also, we're expecting momentarily and we still have our fingers crossed, to hear from the State that we will be declassified at the landfill. That will automatically entitle us to apply for 2 million dollars of State grant money. We're presuming we're going to get that. If we get that, we will then have 2 million State money on top of 3 million local money, gives us 5 million dollars. We're then in the ball park for the total closure cost, without going into any general fund money. Assuming we will keep the fees up to the full price all other things being equal, we will continue to generate 750,000 dollars a year for final closing adjustments, for landscaping, whatever else is necessary. It's the proposal that once we have enough money and the landfill is closed, the Town Board will then have to make a decision. Do you want to reduce rates because our costs are down? What do you want to do? But there should be no need to use general fund monies, there should be no need at this point at least and I don't see it in the future, even to go to bond because of the way this is working out. MR. BRANDT -Well there's a couple of concerns as your getting into the depth of it. One concern I have is that we've raised significantly the fees for people bringing material to a transfer station and I'm not picking at that, I think that you've, it's been a responsible decision. Now we have to see how people react to it and as you said, compaction will certainly will effect it. If people bring less material, certainly the problems less and we all benefit. I think this is probably the biggest thing we have to do is educate people and help people find a way to create less trash and the user fee does do that and I'm all in favor of that. But we are dealing with enormous numbers here and we can be enormously wrong and we have to look at how much compaction is effecting us. There is still another part that I'm not comfortable with and that is that the people who use a commercial hauler, really aren't contributing to that landfill cost and to the landfill closure cost. What could happen is that as people learn that, they go more through commercial haulers and that could really leave us high and dry. There possibly is a way of billing through the IDA so that everybody contributes to that and especially the commercial accounts and I'm one of them. We have, you know, we are a commercial user and as a commercial user we would not be paying for that and there are alot of big commercial users and they should be contributing towards the landfill closure fund and these other costs. So these are concerns I have. I'm not going to pretend to you that I have an answer for them, all I think is that we're dealing in enormous numbers and things could change very drastically here as people change their habits and we're going to affect that by the actions that the Town has taken and we've got to look very closely at it and responsibly address it. That's all. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- Thank you. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Mike, one of the things that Steve gave you some of the in depth numbers, I don't think he just finished the thing out but if we project a 1,000 bags in a compacted 40 cubic yard dumpster at 2 dollars a bag, that's 2,000 dollars. It's going to cost the Town as it will any Town, roughly a 1,000 dollars to ship that the burn plant and burn it. With the 2,000 dollar income, 500 will go to closure, 500 will go to operating and maintenance and a 1,000 to the burn plant. Obviously you raised a very interesting and good point and that is that if enough people start using commercial haulers and we don't get that kind of volume at our landfill, we don't get the income, we don't have the expense, but we also don't have the closure and the operating and maintenance dollars either. So ... MR. BRANDT-Right and if ... COUNCILMAN MONTESI -You're right, it's something that probably we have started in the right direction, you and the new Board will have to also closely monitor that. We're starting at the slowest time of the year in terms of tourism and stuff so that, we're trying to get a handle on it and yesterday, this Monday, no, Wednesday was the first day, today was the first day. So we've asked Jim Coughlin to give us daily monitoring of this in terms of numbers and dollars and to see where we are going, up, down or over. MR. BRANDT-The real whole of the potential problem is that if the 18 pounds becomes 38 pounds, you've got a problem and you know it. You know, I don't have to educate you, you're certainly aware of it and it can happen, and it can be an enormous mistake if it happens. So these are the types of things that I'm very concerned about because it's, in the entire budget document, it is the one thing that can have the biggest effect on the budget. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-You're right. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Doubling the weight of the bags, halves our income and causes us to have the severe problems that your talking about. MR. BRANDT-The other thing which is related as long as we're in detail, it's called cash control and any business that deals in cash has the potential of getting ripped off bad. I lived in a little Town called Muscatine, Iowa for 5 years and there was a big Town called Davenport near by and there was an enormous bridge built between Rock Island and Davenport and there was a toll bridge. I can tell you that what happened was that at night some people figured out how to shut off an electric circuit and the 25 cents tolls amounted to millions of dollars that were pilfered out of there before someone figured out what circuit was shut off and how to prevent that from happening. I don't want to point a finger or say that anybody would take money but the way to prevent anyone from taking any money is to set up controls so they can't. When we're looking at potentially taking in a million or 2 million dollars across the landfill operation, boy, cash controls are going to be extremely important and we may have to invest some real money in that cash control system. There also I think we have to look very carefully at that. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-We talked about that particular subject for well over an hour the other, argued, fought, bled for about an hour the other day and ... MR. BRANDT -Well I'm sure, every business will. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-We came to the conclusion, the Board, I voted against it, came to the conclusion that until December 1st, they're going to just handle dollars, cash at the landfill. The other proposal, we spent alot of time on and I backed, is one that most communities use that of selling stickers at a secure place such as the Town Clerk's Office, at a local super market, in those stickers would be placed on the bag, then little if any money is actually handled in the field and subject to robbery or whatever. So that's, we spent alot of time on that. MR. BRANDT -Let me tell you, in the ski lift business, you sell tickets and a guy in the parking lot is producing them and selling them and that's called counterfeiting. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- That's another major, the counterfeit concern is a major concern. MR. BRANDT-It happens and people are danm good at it when you've got these kind of bucks involved. So it's, anybody that has been in the bar business, knows that there are a million ways and as soon as you solve them, there's a million and ten. It's an enormous potential problem and all I care is that we stay right on top of it and I'd like to be able to communicate with you, consistently, currently all the time to follow it. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Ifwe see changes that are necessary even in the coming 6 or 7 weeks, we'll make those changes. MR. BRANDT-Thank you. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-You are welcome. DICK PALMER, Queensbury-Right on the same subject, that's why I jumped up here, but the 1,800,000 kind oflost me. I was looking at 15,000 tons ... SUPERVISOR BORGOS-We're predicting and again, we're going on the best numbers we have available, 5 or 6 years ago we were doing over 40,000 tons a year at the landfill. That number dropped to 30 some thousand tons last year. At this moment, as of the end of last week, we were 21,000 tons for the year, a dramatic drop, a huge drop, that I really can't account for. I know we're recycling a bit, I know it's not going into the Washington County landfill. I don't know where it's going but for some reason, our records show it's not coming to us. We said if we were looking at 30,000 tons, approximately half, roughly half, will come in vehicles that would now go to our transfer stations. The other 15,000 tons will go through commercial haulers in packers directly to the burn plant. We won't see it, touch it, get involved with the money in any fashion. Only approximately 15,000 should come to us. Fifteen thousand tons, is 1500, ten ton trips to the burn plant and that's how we calculate the numbers. MR. P ALMER-That's why I was concerned that if last year we had approximately 90,000 cars through the landfill and 15 ton, that would be 30 million pounds. Divide that out, it comes to about 333 pounds per unit that went through the turnstiles. If we take that 333 pounds and put that into bags ... SUPERVISOR BORGOS-I don't have my calculator with me, one second. MR. PALMER-Fifteen thousand tons is 30 million pounds. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Fifteen thousand tons times 2,000, so ... COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Some of those vehicles were compacted trucks coming up to the landfill because ... MR. PALMER-Going through the turnstiles? COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Oh turnstiles, okay. MR. PALMER-I'm talking 90,000 cars through the turnstiles. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Okay, your right. MR. PALMER -We're talking about, well if we assume the same amount of cars going through the turnstiles, and now using the approximately the same weight regardless of how they package it. So if we've got 15,000 tons, 90,000 cars, we've got 333 pounds per car or 16 bags times 2 dollars, is pretty expensive. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Except there's another figure that you are leaving out, a major, major, major component of what our stuff goes to the landfill, is what we call haulers other than cars. People who pay the fee that we call miscellaneous money, people who are not in cars or pickup trucks. There are many, many stack body trucks, rack trucks, big dump trucks, huge rental vehicles I've seen out there come through. Janitorial services, vans come through that do not go through the normal coin gate. They stop at the gate, the people come out, they weigh or excuse me, they measure the amount of material there and they charge them per cubic yard and that goes into the so called miscellaneous money income. That could amount to perhaps as much as half of the total volume or more. MR. PALMER -Steve, will they put those in bags? I mean that kind of volume is not going to go in bags. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-No, they're not going to put them in bags. It has to be loaded though into the transfer container, it's going to be taken ... MR. PALMER -Well won't they be taking that to the trash burning plant? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-No. The only thing that can go to the burn plant is material in compactors. Uncompacted material from the typical hauler of any sort other than those licensed and specifically permitted to go there, may not go. They've got to go to the transfer station, be unloaded from the pickup truck or the stack body, dumped into the hopper, compacted, hauled down. MR. PALMER-How are they being billed right now? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Those people are being billed right now, per cubic yard. MR. PALMER-And what is that rate? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-That rate as of this morning is 13 dollars per cubic yard. MR. PALMER-Thirteen per cubic yard? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Thirteen per cubic yard. If you figure the number of bags per cubic yard, it would have come out just around 10 dollars but we said, it's probably more dense materials so we'll start at 13. MR. PALMER-So if we average 120 pounds per car, which I think is more what it is. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-I know what you are saying. I don't think you can do it that way. I don't think ... MR. PALMER-Well I guess what I'm trying to say is that regardless of how we're doing it, that 120 pounds is really not going to be changed. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-I don't think that that's a good average number. MR. PALMER-Okay let's go to 80 pounds, it's still 4 bags, okay. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Four bags, maybe. MR. PALMER -So that, your comment before really was that it was going to be less money because alot of them at 2 dollars, but it's going up so much that I just doubt that we're going to get a million eight and that I can't figure. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-No I said for some people in a very precise category, senior citizens who typically have 1 bag of garbage every 2 weeks and there are a number offamilies like that, they have been paying 3 dollars. Now they'll pay 2 dollars because it's just 1 bag. Paying on a per bag basis, it used to be per car, now it's per bag because we had this incredible cost at the burn plant that we never had before as of this morning. That's automatically 50 percent of that 2 dollars, right off the top and we have absolutely no choice in that, it's County law and can't do ... MR. PALMER-Yes, that's where I'm concerned on trying to figure that revenue coming in. That 90,000 cars in your study, what would you guess or what does your study show that that would drop because of an increase if they had to pay 8 dollars which probably would be close by. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Well it's an interesting concept, our studies, my personal studies have shown that that's probably going to increase. MR. PALMER-The numbers? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Yes and the reason it's going to increase is because the commercial haulers I expect will notify their customers December 1 st that their fees are jumping substantially because of the burn plant. Now if their fees jump from 16 or 17 dollars a month to 30 dollars a month, I think alot more people are going to put their couple of bags in the car and drive to transfer stations which in this nice free economy should say to the haulers, whoops, we better cut our fees back. So we're going to bounce back and forth for probably 3 to 5 months before we settle on fee structures for the commercial haulers before we have a pretty good idea what's happening at the landfill. It's a very complicated problem. MR. PALMER-Well I'm sure it is but just come up with a, like we were looking at a 9.2 million budget and now we're up to a 11 million with the increase of 1.8, assuming we're going to get it in. I'm concerned about that. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Ifwe don't get it in, we don't spend it either. It works both ways. We're watching this on a weekly basis and if things are going in the wrong direction, simply change the rates. MR. PALMER-Again, we're going to have garbage ... SUPERVISOR BORGOS-You can't lose too much. MR. PALMER-All over the country side. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-I hope not. MR. PALMER-Yes, I hope not too. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Anyone else on landfill type thing first and we'll get all of the landfill out of the way? Mr. Tucker come forward first? PLINEY TUCKER-I have a son that lives on Jamaica Road over in South Glens Falls. He got a notice in the mail from North American Recycling that he was only going to get billed just this month for his garbage because of the burn plant. Town of Moreau, the landfill is still open. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- That's correct. MR. TUCKER-Is North American Recycling going to be hauling out of the Town of Moreau to the burn plant and if they are, how are we going to control whose going to pay to have the ash hauled to Buffalo? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-I'm going to keep it short. Somebody told me during the last few weeks, keep it short. Bottom line is, at the moment, the only people committed to bring every bit of burnable solid waste is Warren and Washington Counties. All the Towns in Warren and Washington County and the City of Glens Falls, must go there. There's a problem because there's not enough garbage. So now the IDA is soliciting more garbage from anywhere they can get it. So if the Town of Moreau wants to come, I'm sure there will be welcomed. What has happened so far, nobody wants to come. What has happened in Florida with the same situation, nobody wants to come at the going rate, in fact they've gone out to municipalities nearby and have cut the rate in half and they still can't get enough garbage. So you've got a real potential problem there. The Town of Moreau is still permitted by the State to be opened as a consolidated landfill for a while. They are still trying to site a County Landfill. If they can't get their County Landfill done before DEC loses it's patience, my guess is they are going to be directed to take it to the burn plant. All of Saratoga County will be. MR. TUCKER-I can understand that but the people I'm talking to over there can't understand why North American Recycling is going to increase their rates to take their garbage to the burn plant. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Then they have to go to BFI or one of the other companies. That's going to be, you know, a normal free enterprise situation. MR. TUCKER-But who is going to control, I know myself as a taxpayer, I don't want to pay for the ash from garbage that North American collects in the Town of Moreau and brings to that burn plant to take to Buffalo. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-You are not going to be paying for the ash that way. The County taxpayers will not pay for the ash. The people who will pay for the ash are people whose material go to the burn plant. Only those people. So lets say in our 90 dollar a ton rate that is being paid now, which is part of what you will pay at the transfer station. That will cover ash disposal. There will be separate charge for ash disposal in your Town budget or in the County budget. It's all absorbed in that one item. With some luck the people who are now looking for an ash landfill site, at least a temporary one in Warren or Washington County, will find a site that's acceptable to everyone soon. In that case, the cost at the trash plant could drop by 30 to 50 percent and we can reflect decrease to the taxpayers, all things being equal and this thing is evolving every minute. MR. TUCKER-Yea, I understand that. What's to say that a guy picks garbage up in South Glens Falls, goes to the burn plant with it and says he got it from here? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-He can't because of the controls that the IDA will have. He can try it but for instance, the Town of Queensbury is going to be billed per a specific container that left a particular site at a particular time with a particular driver. Signed in, signatures of everybody when it leaves, when it goes the other end, the bills come back, everything gets matched up. That will go from IDA to Warren County, Warren County will send us the material and bill us and we will then pay Warren County. It's a long involved, it's the biggest mess that society's in. MR. TUCKER-Thank you. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Anyone else on Landfill? Okay, let's switch to any other particular concern, we'll start a whole discussion about that. Any other item at all. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Steve can I just ask while we have some public here, just a general question. In our budget this year we have included some charitable organizations. Not alot. Some that are new, some that are old. We have in the past given to Big Brothers and Big Sisters and this year we have included 800 dollars on the budget line. Volunteer Action, we have included 2500. Literacy Volunteers, 5,000 and Glens Falls Youth Center who made a fairly... plea and talked about numbers of Queensbury students going there, 3,000 and Homefront, the affordable housing, non-profit corporation, 15,000. These numbers are subject to some frustration among some of the Board members, simply because once we open the door to charitable organizations, how far do you go. I mean, what is to say that you shouldn't be supporting the Y, the Association for Blind, etcetera. I mean at what point do you stop. We obviously have selected five organizations. We also are generous to the Chapman, the Hyde and the Library. While there are some of you left, the public, if this is a concern to you, with your other comments specifically that you are here to ask about, I for one would just like to have a feel from you that you feel comfortable with what we're doing, that you don't. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Let me first explain one thing, sure come forward. Let me just explain, maybe it will answer some of your questions. Number 1, the Town may not make any donation to anybody. We can't just donate public funds, that's not proper. We have to enter into a contract for services and that's what we have historically done with all these groups. The reason those numbers are there is because we all sat through these pleas and we all heard it discussed the other night. But the reason that it got there in the first place because the job of budget officer is to propose budgets and I cut without exception, I believe, I cut everything else in every department except the landfill stuff. But I found that these 3 items were of major significance and it was my recommendation as budget officer that they be brought out to the public with the idea that this is the time to make hard decisions. Do we or don't we want these organizations? Do we or don't we want their services? They've lost their State funding as we have lost our State funding. It was my opinion that they were worth while at the numbers that I've put in which is not the numbers that they've requested but I put those numbers in. It's up to the Town Board to make that decision. As far as setting at a precedent for the future, I guess anything we do sets a precedent for the future. If others come in and make a good plea and do a good selling job, than they'll probably be included too. It's up to the sitting Town Board at that time to make that decision. We went through the other night and for the benefit of those who weren't at the meeting, we voted 2 to 2 on one of the items. Everybody, I believe, agreed on the Glens Falls Youth Center and on the Literacy Volunteers and we took a little, and Big Brothers, Big Sisters and the others, but the new ones, and we got to the point of Homefront and there was a 2 to 2 split and the law says it than marches on to the next step which is here. That's the background of it and we're not giving any money away, contract for services. MR. FULLER-I think they are all, the charitable organizations that you mentioned are all very worthy and I will commend you for those. However I do take a little bit of exception to what I consider to be, what we would look at as our social responsibility. It used to be, we used to use words like affordable housing but sometimes for the moderately wealthy and I'm referring to specifically Homefront. I'm not saying that these people are moderately wealthy, I'mjust saying that we do have an organization in Town, called Habitat for Humanity. That's being developed and it is an ongoing kind of thing and it's getting to the point, that it's becoming very exciting. While I agree that we liked to see as many people as possible living in homes that are affordable, I think we do ourselves a wonderful service by looking into the possibility of supporting Habitat for Humanity as well as the others. Personally if I had my choice I would take the 15,000, I do it and I'd take it and give it to Habitat. Ralph Nicholson is fermenting alot of excitement in this in our community and I think that's something that could be looked at. Thank you. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- Thank you. I've heard his presentation, not here but at a Rotary Club meeting and he's doing a good job. MR. FULLER-Yea, he is. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-The great thing about Habitat ... SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Whoops, you've already spoke once. MS. GOETZ-Just to answer his question. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-I'm sorry, I just don't want to get out of sequence or control or whatever. Make a note and come back to it. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-I guess I'm the swing vote on that Homefront thing ... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-The great thing about Habitat for Humanity is that there is no government money involved, it's volunteer labor, it's private contributions and it's sweat equity by the people that are going to own those places. I think it's a fabulous ... SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Ifyou see the video tape, everybody sweats. MR. FULLER-One of the nice things about Habitat is that you can donate ... we send alot of corporate dollars to Habitat, that money goes into an escrow account, it's on hold until somebody finally gets the ... to build that first house in our area, then the money is released. It's earmarked and it's held. So your not going to lose it, you don't have a certain time table in which to use it. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No and it's not a wasteful program, every dollar is well spent. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Once again, to expedite the process, do we have any more comments about any of this particular, any of the items in this particular part of the budget? COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-I think my wife has sort of convinced me on Habitat too, she's been talking to me about it. MR. BIGELOW, Homefront Development Corp.-I'm new to Homefront as their Executive Director. As you know, Carol Pulver was their Executive Director last year. For those who don't know, last year Homefront applied for and was granted a State grant for doing an affordable housing project out on the Corinth Road which consists of 42 single family homes. It's a 750,000 dollar grant which will be used to help write down the cost of the mortgages so that moderate income families can afford new homes. It will be used to get their mortgages down into the 50 and 60,000 dollar range. We approached the Town this year for 2 reasons. Number 1, Homefront was started by a local group of community involved people, bankers and they provided the initial funding for the corporation because they felt there was a great need, it's a non profit corporation. Secondly, Warren County had to agreed to provide 50,000 dollars in funding for administration over a 2 year period. It's my understanding that they provided the first year funding of 25,000 dollars and the second year, they ran into a budget crunch and they did not grant the 25,000 dollars. Obviously we came to the Town because our first big project is within the Town of Queensbury and if we don't have administrative funds, we may not be around to get this granted completed. I believe it's a worth while program and Habitat for Humanity is a very worth while program also. I don't know if they solicited funds from the Town. We did because we need it, not only for this grant, our jurisdiction or our service area is Warren and Washington Counties and northern Saratoga County. This is our only project right now. We do plan on others in the future in other areas of both Counties but in the up coming year, our primary goal is to make sure that we get this subdivision started. Which will be new roads and utilities and to a large parcel and 42 single family home lots developed and sold within, we hope a year, maybe 18 months. We do need the money to provide for the administrative services to monitor the grant and make sure that it gets done correctly. I'd like to say that in no way that would I want to jeopardize anything that Habitat for the Humanity has asked for, if they have asked for it because they are a very worthwhile group and I hope that we're able to work with them on some projects in the future. If they've asked for funds, I think they should be given the funds. We asked and we feel there is a need and we very much need it and we'd like to get them. Thanks Steve. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- Thank you. As long as you are here, does anyone have questions for Mr. Bigelow? Thank you. Any other comments or concerns about those specific types of funding? Mrs. Goetz, even though it's your second time, as long as were on this topic. MS. GOETZ-Well it was when I started to get up before. I don't want you to give the 15,000 to Homefront. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-Why ... MS. GOETZ-Because I feel that the taxpayers have already, will be paying through the 750,000 and the taxpayers have been impacted by paying to the County budget because the Queensbury residents pay 40 percent of the County budget. I'm concerned about groups starting this type of project and then throwing it on the taxpayers to finish. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-Sue I think the dead lock is broken. MS. GOETZ-Thank you. MR. BIGELOW -Susan is right, it does fall upon the taxpayers of all New York State. The grant is a State grant for the affordable housing corporation, was set up by the State of New York and that's what they're in the business of doing, is providing monies for affordable housing. The grants that they give have to go to non profit organizations just as the 202 money from HUD for the senior citizen's project. The community of Queensbury has different needs at different levels. We have needs for senior citizens and we have needs for our low and moderate income families. This particular program is bared on the shoulders of New York State taxpayers and there's no getting around that. It comes from State tax funds. If we don't take this program, it is a competitive program, it was secured by Homefront and they did win it. If we don't take it, it goes back to the State to be used somewhere else. So I think it is important that we keep it. If the community has as it's goal to provide affordable housing which in the last few years during the boom times of the 80's, we've sort of shut out alot of affordable housing in this Town. They ought to consider this a worthwhile project. I think it should be considered for the funding. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Ted, you made a good point and George wasn't at that meeting and I just want in all fairness that, you did say that the funding would go away. Then there was some discussion about, that we had, you and I and the rest of the Board had, if you took the 15,000 and you earmarked very specifically for Queensbury to do one specific thing and that would be administer the dollars that are available right now for the one project in Town, the 41 or the 40, is it 40 units? MR BIGELOW-The subdivision is 42 units. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Forty-two unit subdivision. Somehow, someway, someone has to administer who is going to be able to buy those units. I mean there is some paper work that has to be done. I'm not sure if you're not here, if Homefront isn't here, if it isn't funded, whose going to do that. I'm not raising the issue in total defense of Homefront but I'm raising an issue that this Town Board spent a hell of alot of time on a project that came before us for affordable housing, the grant was given to the developer and somewhere along the line, somebody has to administer for our community that was given that grant, that dollar amount. Now if you're not here, if Homefront isn't here, if it's totally insolvent, I'm not sure how that happens. You said that the State would come in and handle it through another governing body. But that's just one of the things that we need to have some concerns about and as you pointed out, that 15,000 dollars that your asking to contract with the Town of Queensbury, wouldn't provide us with much in future planning for affordable housing but probably only enough to administer what we have presently. MR. BIGELOW-Exactly. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-That's just a clarification point. MR. BIGELOW -Yea, as it stands right now, you're looking at Homefront. There's myself and our volunteer Board of Directors. As I said, we're going to look at doing alot of other projects, also some multi family projects and I did say that we would like to work with Habitat with Humanities. There is alot of paperwork that goes with this grant. There's a 15 year monitoring of the program. These grants are given to individual homeowners so for people who don't have enough down payment or closing costs to get into these houses. These houses are not inexpensive. They're in a new subdivision, they're going to run anywhere from 77 to 82,000 dollars a piece. The maximum grant per household will up to 25,000 dollars and there's a pay back provision for the grant that if the people move within the first 5 years, they have to pay back all of the grant. If they move within 10 years, it's a third. Within 15 years, it's two-thirds, after 15, the entire grant is forgiven. The houses have been designed in such a way that they can grow with the family and expand with the family. I wasn't involved at the time but I understand that there was a rezoning done and it was very laborious and there's a large buffer area around the smaller lots that were approved and there's a homeowners association that has been set up to monitor that. So there is alot of paper work involved and the 15,000 that we're asking for would go just toward this program or programs that we're able to look at within the Town of Queensbury. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-I have to say Ted and it doesn't take my position on how I feel about Homefront but it's a new concept that you are asking. It was a new concept a year ago and when United Way gave 5,000 dollars to Homefront, I think I was taken back somewhat. It wasn't because, I sort of felt like, I'm not sure I want United Way to be a social worker for my community and I was taken back. There's traditional charities that United Way gave to and I wondered who was suffering because of this 5,000 dollar contribution to Homefront. That didn't mean I wasn't in favor of it, it just came to me as somebody did a good job of selling and maybe that's the winds of change are about and maybe that's something that we have to listen to that breeze that's blowing. MR. BIGELOW-Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it, the sales job wasn't by me, you had a very, I don't want to say very important group of people because they're no more important than anybody else in Town but I should say influential people who wanted to see this succeed and they went out and solicited funds from banks and different organizations. This non profit concept is not new, it's been around for years. One form of them is called world preservation companies, they were paid for by the State. Every year they would give them up to 50,000 dollars in administrative money solely to administer their organization and there were caps put on that. That after I believe it was 5 or 6 years and up to 300,000 dollars worth of funding, they were supposed to have gotten to the point where they had done enough projects and developed enough cash flow where they could make themselves self sufficient. It really has happened very, very little with most of the RPC's across the State, there are very, very few of them that have become self sufficient and alot of them are dying on the vine. Here at Homefront, we have taken a different approach which the part that's novel is we went to the private sector to solicit the funds initially and that first set of funds that were garnered primarily from the private sector, were what enabled this area to get the grant. The money from Warren County was also very important. We wish we had it, we are working with Warren County right now through Pat Tatish's office on possibly some funding through one of her grant programs. There's a need and not only Queensbury but all of Warren and Washington County for affordable housing. As I said, our tact is just a little bit different, we are trying to do it on a shoe string right now and develop projects just as the original intent of the RPC's was, just like you would a business, to develop cash flow where you can maintain and administer your own programs without big brother, i.e. the State or municipal government, having to feed you every year. But in the beginning, you do need capital to operate and we're a non profit but we're just like any business, it's just that our funds go back into what we do, it doesn't go into somebodies pocket. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Dave, on the same topic? MR. KENNY-I watched this project get approved also. Did you say that if the 15,000 doesn't come, they'll lose the grant and this project won't happen? MR. BIGELOW-No, I wouldn't, what I said is that we may not be around which could mean we could lose the grant. We do need funds to operate just as any business would and we are looking at several different funding sources right now David. This is one of them, this is one of our most important ones right now to get us through the winter. MR. KENNY-Okay, I still want to make a point. That was the same thing when that had to get rezoned, it was time, they were going to lose the grant. Now let's say it doesn't get built for the next year, can you come in next year and say, if you don't get another 30,000 to keep operating, we'll lose the grant? I mean, you know, it seems to me when this approved last year, it was a done deal, they got the grant and the place was going to get built. I didn't know, I can understand them coming for money to do another project somewhere but I was under the impression, once that grant was approved and that project was approved, everything was at that point okay. Now I'm hearing a little different. Unless they can keep operating, they may lose it. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-I think and I don't have the first hand knowledge that Ted has, it's my understanding that because of the delay in the approvals last year, time marched on. The grant that was approved or tentatively approved early this year, last year, I've lost track, buy many, many, many months ago, didn't come through, they had to wait for the next round of funding. Time went on, things didn't materialize in the economy in general, Homefront slipped away, all of the sudden the grant came through. Now they've got to keep their operation going. It's my understanding, in order to have somebody help this get finished, if they don't, it's my understanding there's nobody to administer it, the grant is going to be gone. It will go somewhere else in New York State, it won't go back in the taxpayer's pocket, it will just go to another community. MR. KENNY-Okay, well that wasn't, I was here the night the final Planning, I think the Planning Board approved the final thing and the guy from Homefront was here and said if we don't get this approved, everything is set up, if we get this approved tonight, the grant's there, it's a go, if we don't get it approved, we'll probably going to lose the grant. It was approved and it was the economic pressure on getting approved. I just don't like to hear now that well, now if we don't get this, we may lose the grant. I mean because when does this, you know, I have no problem when you give money, that's a decision. I don't like the fact that, well if you don't, we may lose the project. That's what I don't like to hear. You know, if it's to keep operating, we need the money, fine. I don't like the fact that I'm now hearing, we may lose the grant that we were already told we had once in the planning process. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-I think what you're hearing is, at least from my perspective, all the other reasons we should keep Homefront are pretty solid. This one particular item is something that would be visible and tangible and could be done right away and very specifically if they're not there, this particular project is going to go. Hopefully as Mr. Bigelow has mentioned, that Homefront will be working on many different projects and as long as they're up and running and under contract to the Town of Queensbury, they'll work on projects for our community. That should be beneficial to a segment of our community that can need this chunk of help. MR. KENNY - I just wanted to bring up that point because this is a little confusing. MR. BIGELOW-I can understand the confusion. The, as I said, I wasn't around at the time the grant was awarded and as most of you know the Executive Director, she had decided to run for municipal government and left the position and Homefront was left without a director for several months. The Board of Directors came to me and asked me if I would help them out. Our plan right now is to get this grant stabilized and get through the winter so that we can start it in the spring. But there's alot of paper work that needs to be done, ongoing in the process of getting it underway and that's what we are attempting to do through the winter. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- Thank you. Mr. Tucker, name and address please for the record. PLINEY TUCKER, Ward 4, Queensbury-I understand that Adam Rich is the developer of this, right Ted? MR. BIGELOW-We are the sponsor, they are the developer, that's correct. MR. TUCKER-Does the grant go to Homefront or did it go to the sponsor or to the project? MR. BIGELOW-It goes to the sponsor who is Homefront Development Corp., us, the non profit. MR. TUCKER-In other words, you guys control the 750,000 dollars? MR. BIGELOW-We most certainly do. Do you want me to explain how the money is drawn down? MR. TUCKER-No. I just had some information and I think I spoke about it several months ago ... MR. BIGELOW-That's why we're here, give it out ... MR. TUCKER-Yea, that the financing for this project was coming out of the State of Vermont and because of the financial situation over there, the financing wasn't allowed to happen. I'm talking about Adam Rich's financing. Now do you know whether he has got financing for this project? MR. BIGELOW-The way this works is Homefront Development Corp. is the sponsor, we are the grantee and the recipient of the State monies. Adams and Rich who, a developer based here in Glens Falls, is the developer. They will have the responsibility of building the project. They solicited bids from qualified contractors, locally and nonlocally. I believe they interviewed, it was 6, it may have been 5, it was 5 or 6. Part of their requirements was that the contractors selected, now this is separate from the developer, they're hiring a contractor to build the homes, was that they had to provide all of the construction financing. The only group that could meet all of the specifications as spelled out, was a company called the Rutland Group out of Vermont. Adams and Rich solicited local banks for the financing, they declined. The Rutland Group was able to secure financing through a bank in Vermont out of Rutland and I forget the name of it right now, but the financing is coming from a bank in Vermont for the Rutland Group. They are having to provide all the financing for the houses and for the development of the roads and water lines and all the utilities. There's no grant money going to be drawn down during construction. When the house sells, the paper work is put together with an itemization with the grant amounts to the particular people, it's sent to the State, they send the money to Homefront. At closing, that money will then go to the bank to write down the mortgage and then at that time, through the mortgage, the developers pay for the house. He doesn't receive a nickel from that grant until the house sells. MR. TUCKER-But their financing is stable as far as you know? MR. BIGELOW-As far as I know it, yes sir, it is. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Next? I guess we're still on this general topic. Anyone else? If not, let's skip to another topic of choice. MARK BEHAN, 18 Sunset Drive, Queensbury-I'm here tonight representing the Board of Trustees of Crandall Library to thank the members of this Board again for their continuing financial support for the library. You have really distinguished yourself over the last several years for the tremendous support and the dramatic increases and we appreciate that very much. As you know, Crandall is coming off another record year for use and 18 percent increase in circulation. We're in the middle of this year, that's on top of a 20 percent increase last year. Because of the difficult financial times, libraries traditionally see increases in use as unemployment rises, so we expect that next year will be no different. We'll probably be another record year next year and we appreciate the 220,000 dollars that's allocated in this year's budget. The library asked for 294,000 dollars, I believe was the request, which is a 13 dollar per capita request. We recognize that any requests in this economic climate, any increase request, are difficult for you to accommodate but should you find yourself in a position where there are additional sales tax revenues, I hope that you'll look favorably on perhaps on some increase in that funding. Again, we appreciate it very much. You have been great friends of Crandall and we appreciate your continuing support for it. Thanks. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-You know Mark ... SUPERVISOR BORGOS- Thank you. Anyone else want to make a nice statement? COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-Ifl had my druthers, I would rather put the 15,000 dollars in the library. I still haven't changed my opinion about that project. I voted against it and I got attacked in the paper about it. I don't appreciate the tactics and the information that they had in the letter was not presented at public hearing. It could have come from only one source, sponsor. My personal integrity was attacked. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Any other comments about the library as long as we're on that topic. Any questions from members of the Board about the library. All these things we're talking about tonight have been discussed in excruciating detail at 20 or 30 hours of budget hearings. So the Board is fairly familiar with everything. Certainly were ready to listen to new ideas. Mr. Kenny again. Let's see, anybody else who hasn't spoken yet at all on some other topic. Now as we go to each new topic then it opens to everybody for the first time. Anybody on any other topic who hasn't spoken on anything? If not, Mr. Kenny. MR. KENNY-It's the first page of the budget, I'm not, I just want to get a clear picture of what it means. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-You want to just hold it up? Okay, that's the cover sheet. MR. KENNY-Yea, it says here, the cover sheet, appropriations, 11,074,142.00 dollars, I guess that's how much money you plan on spending in the general fund or that section. Then it says estimated revenue, 9,163,415.00 dollars. I'm assuming that revenue is generated by sales tax, property tax and ... SUPERVISOR BORGOS-In the case of the landfill by the landfill fees ... MR. KENNY-Well that's not part of that one. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Building inspector fees. MR. KENNY-Building inspection fees. I'm looking at this one, the landfill is below. Okay, then it has applied fund balances, 1,407,000, what is that money? Where is that money coming from? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Okay, that's what's normally or quite usually called a surplus, surplus monies. Surplus monies are amounts left over from operations of a previous year plus amounts unspent during the current year that came in through revenues. So at the end of the current year you anticipate, we've been lucky, each of these past several years even though we've appropriated to spend, we've approved spending in advance of x number of million dollars, we've tried to be careful, we've always had something left over. So these are the monies we believe that will be left over and should be applied and there should actually be considerably more than this. But this is the amount that should be applied. I would recommend not using any more fund balance than this because to do so would reduce too much, I think, the amount of fund balance left over. MR. KENNY-Okay, that's my next question. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yes, if your not going to ask it Dave, I am. It's what going, what's left in the fund balance after you apply that. MR. KENNY-Right, well that was, I guess I want to go through the whole lines and go back. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Okay, this is anybodies guess from year to year. We're shooting for ... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But at this present time. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-My best guess is it's going to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 300,000 dollars. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It's drawn it down. MR. KENNY-Okay, well let's go to the next line so everybody understands. The next line is the amount to be raised by property taxes for that line item. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Correct. MR. KENNY-Okay now we'll go back one to that fund applied balance, what, I'd like to know what was in that balance to start the year, 1991? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-We projected to have approximately 600,000 dollars. When we finally came out and we never know until after the sales tax are received at the end of January and after the accountant's do the final calculations through February sometime. As I recall we ended up with something in the range of 450,000 dollars. There were reduced sales tax numbers, there were some reduced State aide payments that were due in December that didn't come in. So that was around 450, approximately. MR. KENNY-Okay, so basically what you're saying is, to start the year of 91, what was left in this applied fund balance was 450,000 dollars. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- That's in the general fund, correct. MR. KENNY-In the general fund. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- There was some in Highway and others. MR. KENNY-Okay, it's just that ... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well there's 2 ways that we get money and I don't know what I'm hearing here. We get it because all the departments didn't spend all their money and we get it because our income is higher than what we projected. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- That's how the surplus gets built, right. MR. KENNY-Right, I'm assuming the applied ... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Were you lumping them all together when you were giving Dave the figures? SUPERVISOR BORGOS- Yes. MR. KENNY-The applied fund balance I'm assuming is mostly by alot of surplus... COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Sales tax revenues MR. KENNY-Sales tax revenue ... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, we didn't have much ... MR. KENNY-I would think you budget for the amount, I think you budgeted 3.9 million and 3.9 million came Ill. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, we didn't have much surplus. MR. KENNY-I don't think coming from sales tax, I don't know where... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-We've had it building up over a period of years, I think we've had too much of it. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-In the past, we've underestimated it ... MR. KENNY-I guess my question is, I just heard, there wasn't too much. Ifwe start the year with 450 and we're going to end the year with approximately 400, we really haven't switched the equation too much. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I heard 300. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-We should not have changed ... MR. KENNY-Well 300, even 150, I'm not worried about it with 19 million dollar budget .... SUPERVISOR BORGOS-We've dropped dramatically in the last 2 years. We've dropped dramatically for a couple of reasons. Number 1, we were under the gun from the State and have been for many years because the surplus was too big and this is State wide. That's one of the arguments that the State and the Governor used this year in dramatically reducing State aide. He was saying the so called cash rich towns and municipalities of the State should use that up. Well to an extent he's right, but other expenses kept going. What happened last year, the Town took 2 very, very big hits, totally uncontrollable. One was a 250,000 dollar take back of sales tax by the State for an error they said they found back in the range of 1984,85,86 which we can not even look at, we have to take their word for it and pass through Warren County. The other big hit was this year, the tremendous hit in State aide loss this current year of 160,000 dollars from budget but 200,000 dollars from actual 2 years ago. The State at this time last year, even 2 weeks later than this, told us this year we would get 260,000 dollars. We budgeted 235 to be conservative, we ended up getting 74,000 dollars. So there's another 160 that I had hoped to have, 160 just this year which would have put us up in 550,000 at the end of the year after everything said and done. But in addition to that, had we had the 250 that we should have had, then we would be up 750,800,000 again. We can not predict what the State will do and impose on us. That's, we're at their mercy. We have to make decisions on the best available information on any particular minute. MR. KENNY-No, I just, you hear all these kinds of rumors and stories and you say, you know, you have the applied fund balance and I was just assuming that's what it was. But I see we're applying a million four for 1992. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-A couple of years ago we applied a million five and a couple of years before that we applied a million three and million six, that's been reducing because the amount available to us is reduced. MR. KENNY-Well that's what I'm saying. I guess my question is really is how much ... back track the last 3 years, if we start the year and end the year with the same amount, than it's just an adjustment actually which you could make in November, December, there's no problem with it but if it's money that's been there for 5 or 6 years and you're slowly running that account down, then when it's gone, there's going to be a problem. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That's what's been happening. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Correct, well we did slowly run it down. Dave, we did run it down ... MR. KENNY-By State mandate. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Well the law is in the legislature now to say that a municipality may not keep more than 10 percent of the general, that's the number 1 line, the general appropriations line. So the State would mandate for Queensbury under the new law that's proposed, 600,000 dollars absolute maximum surplus that you could have at any time and our goal was 600 to 900,000 dollars. We're going in that direction. The other part of the philosophy is that, why should we hold the taxpayers money, if the taxpayer could have it. I believe government should only take tax dollars when they need it. People know best what to do with their money. Warren County has been criticized for the same thing for years. Also when things are allowed to build up in surplus, surplus by law is available for governing bodies just to grab and use to a large extent without public hearings and it's not good to even make it look like that potential is there. So by keeping surplus at a reasonable number, we're comfortable because we pay our bills well, we've got an excellent credit rating. We don't need the surplus for a rainy day because we can always bond if we have to. MR. KENNY-No I'm just hoping this million four that's there today, is there for 1993. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-It should be. MR. KENNY-That's the ... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That's a catch 22. MR. KENNY-If the 2 starting figures are the same, it should be. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-It should be more, if the economy, the economy has got to a some point bounce. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But it ain't going to bounce according to the specialist this year. It's going down more. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Well if sales tax revenue, we're on key with sales tax revenue right now. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But we don't have the roll overs ... SUPERVISOR BORGOS-We are ahead of time. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-We don't have the roll overs we used to. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-We're on key with mortgage tax too. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-We're on the penny with mortgage tax. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-We have a real bad December, what does that mean? MR. KENNY-I don't see a problem with it, there was 450,000 to start 1991 and there's going to be 300,000, your estimating because you should have a good idea of what's going to be now, I mean 2 months down the road, a month and a half. It's a slow time of year like you said, alot more revenue isn't coming in. You have a pretty good handle on it, if you feel it's going to be 300,000, that's what your saying versus 450, you know, 150 like you said, they did hurt you. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Out of a 17 million dollar budget total or whatever, it's about as close as you can get. MR. KENNY-No I don't have a problem with that. I mean I would have a problem if there was a million dollars to start the year and we're going to wind up with 300,000, then I could see a 700,000 dollar short fall come next year. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-You know I get a big kick out of the State criticizing towns for accumulating enough so that they don't have to make these big swings in taxes and yet the towns are not the ones like the State that have troubles balancing their budgets and keep having to find new tax sources. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-That's true. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-And our taxes has been right there for 4 years in a row. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-You know the State spends it, when they got it, they spend it ... COUNCILMAN POTENZA-When they don't have it. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-And when they don't have it, they figure a new way, they don't raise taxes but they've got an awful lot of new fees that we didn't have 5 years ago. You know I think this is bananas, these State comments on these audits and that way and I would gladly go down and tell a few people. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Please do. I went and I tried and I listened and there was a committee, the joint meeting of the Senate Finance Committee and the Assembly Ways and Means Committee started with 10 members. After Mayor Dinkins got done, a whole bunch of them left, by the time I got up there, a person was there and he took some phone calls. So they don't really listen alot. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But they didn't take a nap. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Yes sir. TOM MCDONOUGH, Twicwood Lane, Queensbury-I had a couple of questions about some line items and I refer to page 27, most particularly with respect to a budgeted amount for police. Not to take that particular item in of itself but apparently ... SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Your 27 I don't think agrees with my 27. What's the second set of numbers? TOWN CLERK DOUGHER-Thirty-one twenty. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- Thirty-one twenty? MR. MCDONOUGH-Thirty-one twenty. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- Thank you, it's a little different page in our book. I apologize for the delay. Okay, that's 35 in our book. MR. MCDONOUGH-Okay, my understanding is many, many years ago, we disbanded the Queensbury Police Department, that an allocation of funds was made to the Sheriffs Department which I assume is the basis for what we have here on this particular item? Am I incorrect? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-You are correct, 275,000 dollars. MR. MCDONOUGH-Now my understanding further was at that time, that was a voluntary payment, it was not a contractual obligation mandated by law. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Not my understanding. My understanding is that the Town of Queensbury way back when the police department was established, actually entered into a contract for services, in fact I've seen the contracts. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-For 3 years. MR. MCDONOUGH-I understand that they did enter into a contract but my understanding of it was not a mandated contract by any authority. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Not mandated by the State. MR. MCDONOUGH-Other than the contract that they entered into. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-It's my understanding that there were extra services to be provided and that was agreed upon between Warren County and the Town of Queensbury way back and I don't know the motivations of all the people in 1980 whatever. MR. MCDONOUGH-Well what I'm coming to is on review of increased budget items, perhaps and I don't want to cause any problems between the Town of Queensbury and the Sheriffs Department. But with the increased budgets both here, this municipality and the County Municipal, this is the type of item that ought to have a second look taken at it. Because it's a substantial amount of money which at the time, I understand for the transfer that was required with respect of number of police officers, that were agreed to be hired by the Sheriffs Department, the purpose has long since gone by that time and I don't want to incur Mr. Lamy's wrath by making this statement but it's still a substantial amount of money and perhaps ought to be reviewed. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Let me make you feel happy, I hope. Mr. Tucker, here in the audience has many times over the past few years brought that to our attention. The current contract with the Sheriffs Department expires at the end of December of this year. We are currently in the process of renegotiating the numbers. We have spent many hours in discussions with many people at the County level concerning our possible decisions for the future. We have officially notified the County in a timely fashion approximately a month ago, that the contract is terminated at the end of this year. We have asked for a meeting to negotiate a possible new contract. So I think you'll be very happy within several days to see once the meeting is, a formal meeting is held, that perhaps there can be some substantial savings in this area. MR. MCDONOUGH-Well what I would ask you folks to take a look at is the foundation for the basis for the contract really no longer exists. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-Well that's one of the reasons we've discussed it. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Many of us are in full agreement with what you are saying. MR. MCDONOUGH-Okay, alright. I guess another question I had and I guess I'll have to convert the numbers and I'll go to ... SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Just give us the second set of numbers and we can pick a page. MR. MCDONOUGH-Okay, I'm going to page 81 and your department is 9902. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Page 80 what? COUNCILMAN POTENZA-Eighty-one. MR. MCDONOUGH-I have an 81. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Okay. MR. MCDONOUGH-Now this is referred to as the cemetery fund in my book. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Wait a minute. Will you give us that number again? Because 9902 in our's is unemployment insurance. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-What does it say? Is there a title there? What's the whole number? Is it 99019002? MR. MCDONOUGH-Well I've got about 10 pages that categorizes the cemetery fund running from that department 8811,9030,9050,9060,9720 and 9902. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Well let's turn to page 83 which is the cemetery fund and specifically what numbers.. . COUNCILMAN POTENZA-90308030, I guess is what he just said, right? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Benefit social security? COUNCILMAN POTENZA-Right, that's 87. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-I've got page 88. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-Well maybe if Tom asks the question we'll find ... SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Let's ask your question and then will determine what the line item is. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I was going to say, what's your heading? MR. MCDONOUGH-The heading has been cemetery fund for the whole list and it comes out for a gross total, even on your page 1, of 324,934 and I've been following it as a cemetery fund issue ... COUNCILMAN POTENZA-Page 95 for us. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-There it is. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Okay, we're with you, I think. Well I don't have a page 95, continue with your discussion please. MR. MCDONOUGH-My question is, is this in fact come under the cemetery commission or is this a misnumber or where alot of things were just buried... COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Quite a phrase. MR. MCDONOUGH-Not to make a pun, where there's no other place to put them because it's a substantial amount of money and if it's only relegated with respect to a cemetery and a cemetery fund and you have all these other expenses attributable to it, how come? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Okay since you've done so much work I'm going to give you a detailed answer, I'll try not to bore you. Cemetery Commission was established by an act of State legislature in the 1930,40 range, somewhere in there, the only such cemetery fund in the entire State of New York, the Cemetery Commission. The Cemetery Commission is charged with the overall responsibility of setting guidelines and policies at the cemetery. They're also charged with responsibilities of maintaining a fund for some of which is to be dedicated to perpetual care of the cemetery. The Cemetery Commission as traditionally taken care of all the monies, all the Cemetery monies in the Town that go to the fund. However a major portion of the money that comes in goes to the Town for operation and maintenance, comes directly to the Town. Major portion of sales, cemetery lots, crematory services, other burial services comes directly to the Town. That shows up as revenue here of 255,000 dollars at burials and cremations. The Cemetery Commission has been paying for out of their fund and we don't control the money although we report it on our State Annual Report as of a few years ago, they've been paying for the retort, excuse me, the purchase of the entire crematory, bond, principal and interest. MR. MCDONOUGH-I see that. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- They've also agreed as of a couple of years ago, to pay the difference between that payment and those payments come into the upper 40,000 range, the difference between that and 75,000 dollars as another transfer to the Town to that Cemetery fund, that Pine View fund that you see on here to be used for perpetual care. So we have budgeted as revenues from the Cemetery Commission this year, 75,000 dollars and that will show up on the revenue line. MR. MCDONOUGH-I see that point but I guess, my question then go back to points, of employee benefits of a pay 60,000 dollars out of the Cemetery fund as it's listed, in this particular item for hospital and medical expenses which if we're talking about solely the operation of the cemetery fund, the cemetery operation, it seems like an awful lot of money. As are some other items. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-This year to date we have spent 45,902. There are, I'll try to remember, 5 or 6 people full time. Betty is counting them now. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Six and one of those is part time. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Plus we've got, crematory is not on there. MR. MCDONOUGH-That's a separate item. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That's another one. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Right but that still comes under Pine View on here. MR. MCDONOUGH-I understand but it's listed on a separate item number within this category, it's separate ... SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Also for hospitalization? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Not for hospitalization. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-These are inserted in our accounting department, these particular numbers and they get refined between now and the adopted budget. MR. MCDONOUGH-Well the only question I had is that it seems like an awful lot of money for employee benefits for hospitalization and medical insurance of 60,000 dollars for such a small number of people. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Not 6 people. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-It runs approximately, hospitalization costs for family, hospitalization including the dental program and other, runs somewhere just over 5,000 dollars a year. In fact it's over 6,000 a year now. MR. MCDONOUGH-But that would be double for the number of employees we have here if you take the figures that you say ... SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Well if we have 9 employees and they're all family... MR. MCDONOUGH-I think we've got 6 over here. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-I think Betty got up to 9. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-We've got 1 part time but it's 20 hours, 52 weeks so it's probably covered with hospitalization. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Yes, right. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Two, three, four, five, six people is all I have found so far. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Okay, 6 people at 6, would be 36,000 dollars. For some reason we've already spent 45 ... MR. MCDONOUGH-What about 30,000 dollars, you said 5,000 per family. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-It's about 6,000. MR. MCDONOUGH-Well you said 5. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-It's about 500 dollars a month. MR. MCDONOUGH-But we've got 60 budgeted for that number of people. I'm just looking at the numbers and seeing this is rather high, just in that category, okay. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-What's the retort page? Let's see if they're counting them. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I got the assistant for the crematorium. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-How much does it show up in hospitalization benefit under the crematory? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I don't think anything Steve, I think it's all together. MR. MCDONOUGH-It's not listed separately, it's only, the crematory is not listed. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-They are all together. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Okay well if it's not there than it would be here so that would give us one more person. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No it's 6, I counted him. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Including? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yes. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Okay this should be ... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Unless, wait a minute, is Rod on here? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Rod should be, you've got to count Rod. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Ron isn't listed in, oh wait a minute, I didn't count him though. One, two, three, four, five, six, it's seven, because I didn't count Rod. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Okay so there should be roughly 42,000 dollars we've paid so far this year, 45,900. So there's a cushion here at this level of the budget process that conceivably could be changed. Those are the refinements that we make following this hearing but it's a good point. MR. MCDONOUGH-I had a question back and I got to go to the number to do some transferring here, let me see. I also see an item as listed under traffic control which would be 3310 on your item, on my book it would be page 28. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Okay, page 36 in our book. I can break that down for you. Do you have the break down on your sheet? I haven't looked at those. MR. MCDONOUGH-No there's no break down here whatsoever and all of it, almost all of it though is contractual expense. Obviously we don't have any traffic control as such within this municipality, as I understand. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-We do, let me explain what the items are. There all, anything in the so called point 4 account is a contractual item so you'll see a 4 something after it. We have signs, street signs, traffic signs are proposed at 18,000 dollars. The present year budget was 25,000 dollars. Traffic light repairs are proposed at 15, the present budget was 30. The utilities, that would be the electric service for the traffic lights, proposed at 8,000, the current budget was 10,000. Miscellaneous contractual for whatever happens that relates to these things, whether it's extra pavement marking for something special, is only 3,000 dollars. So the total proposed this year is 44,000 compared to a current budget of 72,000 and we did that because actual expense to date as of the first of October, is 10,300. We do expect, I believe they told us the other night, 15 or 18,000 dollars more of signs that will go on this list that have been ordered but have not yet been received. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-For this year. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-For this year. So there's enough money here to be a little bit of a cushion for next year in case it's needed but not a huge amount. MR. MCDONOUGH-Would the same discussion hold true with respect to what would probably be the next line item expense, 3410 fire which is on my page 29? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Okay, does that all it says, is fire on there? MR. MCDONOUGH-That's all it says, is fire. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Okay, that is the fire marshall's office. It's the fire marshall's office, that's not the fire departments. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Page 37 on ours. MR. MCDONOUGH-I have done some little research but not sufficient to be overly intelligent about this but somewhere in the background the fire marshall's obligation is one that's also mandated by the County, is that correct? In other words, has the municipality, Queensbury municipality voluntarily adopted this as their obligation as against turning it over to the County to follow as a County obligation? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-What you are talking about is the County provides a service of building and code enforcement, that to small extent, relatively small extent, includes the services of a fire marshall. There is no fire marshall at the County level. MR. MCDONOUGH-I understand that. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Their department and responsibilities would be comparable to our department of building and code enforcement. The fire marshall's office is something different. It does get involved with education in the schools. It does get involved with inspection of somewhere over 800 businesses in Town. It's a separate item from the building and code enforcement department. MR. MCDONOUGH-I understand that but ... SUPERVISOR BORGOS-It does not duplicate. The County, in other words the County does not provide that service. MR. MCDONOUGH-I understand that but if we did not provide the service, that type of service would be mandated and fall upon the shoulders of the County. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Be mandated by the State. MR. MCDONOUGH-To fall on the County's shoulders. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-It would probably go back in our department of building and code enforcement. MR. MCDONOUGH-Well that's the next step I'm coming to because that comes in through the back door because you did indicate that the obligation of the building and code enforcement officer is that of the burden of the County which apparently somehow this as a municipality has adopted as their own. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-I'm trying to, I wasn't in time Supervisor when the decision was made. So I don't know why it was made and I don't know for a fact that the County would automatically resume that responsibility if the Town dropped out of it. I don't know that. MR. MCDONOUGH-Well again, coming back to my original discussion with respect to the issue of the police department, all of this is history, okay, and if it's only history and we're volunteering to do it, perhaps we ought to take a look at and say, this ought to be rewritten as of the chapter of 1992. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-We'll take a look and try to get the history on this and see what the rules are. MR. MCDONOUGH-Because at this point in time we may be doing it only based upon the fact that we did it before and we've done it so long that we ought to continue doing it and perhaps take another look at it. Because if it turns around and in fact is an obligation of the County, perhaps we should be looking to the County for some contribution as a set off against taxes to us, so far as the fact we're pulling those duties. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-They'lllove me after I talk to them about the police but we'll ask. We'll check into it. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-I have a suspicion that the building inspector duties are quite different than the fire marshall's duties. I don't think the building inspector would do the job adequately. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-To a large extent they come under the same law then they separate. COUNCILMAN KUROSAKA-Uniformed fire code and building codes. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-In the fire marshall's office, that's a good question because something shows up in the budget that you need. Fire marshall's office has a fire marshall and a deputy fire marshall, 2 people. You'll see a fairly large change for next year in the salary side of this in the personnel cost and that is specifically because Fire Marshall Bodenweiser is on an extended sick leave. He is ill. He mayor may not ever come back. He had accumulated sick leave, days for most of his 12 or 13 or 14 years with the Town. He's now sick. We have to provide to make those payments until he uses up his sick leave. So that's money is in here otherwise that would be down substantially and we're going to further refine that by calculating exactly how many days he's got left and this is relatively close but we'll drop that as much as we can before the end. MR. MCDONOUGH-At this time I don't have any other line items I'm going to bring up for discussion but I do want to look into them, I only got the budget this morning. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- Thank you. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Steve, with regards to that, we are not going to replace Fire Marshall Bodenweiser this year? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-I think the Board decided the other day that, we made a couple of weeks ago, made Kip Grant, the Deputy Fire Marshall, we made him acting Fire Marshall. I think the Board decided the other day we will go out and replace and get a deputy. Mr. Grant can not possibly handle that load alone. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-We don't have a line on that unless you've made an a... COUNCILMAN MONTESI-That's not in the budget. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-It is in the budget. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-How? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It's not in ours unless you've made an adjustment that we don't have. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-No we have ... COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Well you've got the deputy and you've got the fire code enforcement and one is covering Bodie's salary. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Okay, the fire marshall is listed here as 39, 8, that includes the salary of Kip Grant and the additional monies ... COUNCILMAN MONTESI-I don't have that. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Oh, well you've got different figures, see we've never gotten the updated version. We should have had an updated version and we didn't get it. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Okay, you probably didn't make a note that night, I'm sorry. I thought you had all gotten these. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Okay, the updated version, there's 39,8, it is in there. That includes what Mr. Bodenweiser would be entitled to on sick pay, what Mr. Grant would be getting and then there's another line for deputy fire marshall, the person who does not now exist with us at 23,000. That includes money for overtime. So the salary for the 23,000 person would be probably be in the range of 21,000 dollars. MR. MCDONOUGH-Thank you. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- Thank you. Any other questions on any of these that have just been discussed so we can hit them? Okay, anybody else? MR. PALMER-On page 121. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Can you give us that second set of numbers in the left hand side? MR. PALMER-Oh let's see, 8130. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Do you got a title for it? MR. PALMER-Sewage treatment disposal, Quaker Road Sewer District. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Okay so I've got to go down into the waste water. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Page 130 Steve. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-I flipped to the wrong side. COUNCILMAN POTENZA-Which one, it depends on which one it is. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Okay, what specifically? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Okay, I don't have 130 in this book, 8131? COUNCILMAN MONTESI-8130. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That's the whole sewer department. Oh it's a PAC one. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-8130 is Pershing Ashley Coolidge Sewer District. You want to go to Quaker Road? MR. PALMER-Well this says 032 Quaker Road Sewer District and then sewage treatment disposal. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Okay and the number? MR. PALMER-There's a 77,000 dollar increase. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Very specifically, I've got an answer for you. The increase includes a 75,000 dollar extra charge from the City of Glens Falls under the contract that was entered in 2 years ago for the repair of that incinerator that's a problem. There's also a couple thousand dollars increase because the, those are serial bonds that were out there and as I recall the amount to be paid back in principal this year is a few thousand dollar, higher than last year. Not all the bonds were equal, they varied by 2 to 4 thousand dollars from year to year. MR. PALMER-So the Quaker Road Sewer is not increased by 77,000, that's increased by the entire Town for this, all the sewer district? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-No, the dollar cost that has to be covered by the Quaker Road Sewer District, again at this moment, would be increased by approximately 77,000 dollars. However, the good side is, there is an increase in the assessed valuation. There's an increase in people sharing the cost. We have an increase in contract customers. When we finally pare this down in the next week to 10 days, fingers crossed and it's our goal to see at least some slight decrease in the cost of that district. We now have all the bonding costs in here, we have the whole load. We should decrease. In addition to that, I've already spoken with the Mayor of the City of Glens Falls, we will try desperately and there's not alot of people here now, we will try desperately in the next few weeks, to try to find a way, my recommendation anyway, try a find a way that when the Warren County Supervisor's go to Washington to take care of the Lake George problem, going to try and find a way also to some how include the Quaker Road Sewer District in part of that equation. Going to try also include the cost to rebuild the incinerator in Glens Falls in that equation. I haven't talked to the Mayor in detail, I mentioned the plan to him, he wants to hear more. If we can possibly convince Warren County to send the sewage to Glens Falls Waste Water Plant that was built for that purpose years ago and abandon the 3 or 4 extra little plants that are proposed around Lake George and up through Bolton, get it back in 1 pipe and send it to once place. I think personally that there's an opportunity there for us to get the federal government to tie all these things together. I think and if that's the case, with a substantial amount offederal funding, we could dramatically reduce this cost quickly. Much more quickly than I ever thought. I think it's worth a try. It's not a long shot any more, I think it's a relatively short shot because the government has announced plans to fund more public works projects specifically highways and other major things to get the economy moving. I think right now, there's not a bad chance to get that money. But that could help and it's got to be done in the next few weeks. MR. PALMER-Alright, I guess the next one, under same thing, Hiland Park Sewer, there's appropriations, estimated revenues and then amount to be raised by taxes, 15,350. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Hiland Park District? MR. PALMER-Page 1 here, Hiland Park Sewer and I was just kind of curious of 15,000 being raised by taxes for whatever ... SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Oh on your cover page, on the cover page. MR. PALMER-Yes, it's on the cover page. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Hiland Park's Sewer is billed on a totally different basis from Quaker Road Sewer and Pershing Ashley Coolidge is billed still by another formula. Reservoir Park is billed by yet another formula. Technical Park Sewer District billed by yet another formula. Hiland Park is strictly on the basis of assessed evaluation. So that's the amount to be raised in the district. Take the assessed evaluation and that's the way it gets paid. A good chunk of that money goes into Quaker Road Sewer District to help pay the pumping costs and the costs to the City. It's a very involved, the generate the sewage, they drop it all in the Meadowbrook Road Pumping Station. We calculate how much comes from Hiland Park, we use that as a percentage to off set the City charges. So we bill Hiland Park for their percentage use of what becomes the Meadowbrook Pump Station plus all the pipes go into the City. MR. PALMER-Okay so that I'm to understand I guess that Hiland is not finished, that they are paying for sewage as used. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-They still pay all the operation and maintenance, the only thing that they are finished with is the capital construction with the exception of the agreement signed here a few weeks ago where they are still making an annual payment and that shows up again as revenue to the Quaker Road Sewer District. I'll give you the page, I'll show you exactly where it is, I've got to find it in the revenue side. MR. PALMER - I found it some place but it seemed kind of low and really questioned that but I don't know what page it is Steve. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-I should be able to find it in a minute. There's Hiland Park water, there's a few pages here. We've got to find Quaker Road Revenue. I think were in the right one. Quaker Road Sewer District Revenue. Let me study it for just a minute. MR. PALMER-Yea I see it on my page, 13681. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Okay it's on our page 9 or page 18, it's under miscellaneous revenues, 50,000 dollars. I'm sorry that's where it was, it's been moved. Let me look in the earlier budget, I don't see where it's moved in that final one. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well see we don't have that one Steve. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-I'll go back to the one that you have because that's where I've got all my notes. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-The one that we have is page 18. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Page 18 also? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yes. MR. PALMER-Any idea what page mine would be? UNKNOWN-Page 16. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Here's why it doesn't show up and it's going to help everything, it doesn't show up because I didn't mark it with my magic marker of items that were supposed to be moved over, I missed it. It's 50,000, you can see right here, it's 50,000 dollars was this year's appropriation and that same goes over here to proposed. So that will reduce the amount to be raised in Quaker Road by 50,000 dollars. MR. PALMER -So that, I would have go into much further than I really think we should take time on now but it just appeared that that 135, I believe it was that they agreed to, there was 8,000 paid which some balance of that 50 to be due this year ... SUPERVISOR BORGOS- The other 42. MR. PALMER-And yea, by the end of this year, and was it just 50,000 next year? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Fifty thousand next year. Fifty thousand I believe the following year. I'm trying to keep the years straight, 50 this year, 50 this year, 50 next year and then in the last year, the interest from December 21st oflast year plus the remaining 18 or 20,000 dollars. So it should be roughly 50,000 in the fourth year, maybe more than 50, at 9 percent. MR. PALMER-Okay, then from that point on, I guess there really is no sewage use payment by the people? If they double the size of that area ... SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Oh there will continue to be ... MR. PALMER -And they increase the usage of sewage, is there going to be an increase in money coming in? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Absolutely that's the 11 something to be raised this year. Now that could be 15, it could be 30, it could be 50 at some point. MR. PALMER-That's raised by that not by taxes, as I was looking at here? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Correct. That's raised by Hiland Park and that shows as a revenue to Quaker Road Sewer District. MR. PALMER-Okay, I guess that's what I'm just trying to find out what that 15,350 on taxes is for the Hiland Park Sewer on that cover page? I don't understand why on any tax money is being raised for that. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-Oh, because individuals ... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It's by their own taxes. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- This is not Town wide, this is just in that district. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-On their taxes. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-See individuals own houses now in Hiland Park and if you own a house in Hiland Park and let's say you use 70,000 gallons of water a year, then the Town of Queensbury is going to tax you on your flow. MR. PALMER-Okay, that's what I wanted to know. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-So that, yes we are raising, the individual, Hiland Park is a whole district but now they are selling their lots so individuals own those lots and we charge those individuals based on their flow. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-For your purpose and again I can see, I get confused, I live with it every day. Where it says all other districts, the only people who pay any of the items listed and the amount to be raised by taxes are people in those special districts. So even up above where it says water funds, the only people there who pay any of those numbers are the people in those districts getting serviced. MR. PALMER-Okay. Thank you. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- Thank you. Anyone else? Mr. Tucker, come on up. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Gee just think Pliney, pretty soon you'll be on this side answering the questions. MR. TUCKER-Yea I know it. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-I miss my bed at home, I figured a 20 minute meeting on the first thing, we've heard no controversy on that first project and I was wrong by 2 hours. MR. TUCKER-As we look through here it shows unemployment insurance but it shows that you're not paying any. Suppose a Town employee gets laid off? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-We have one line in there somewhere. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Unallocated. MR. TUCKER-That covers it all? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-It's got a small amount. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Three thousand dollars or something, in one spot I saw. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-We have been extremely lucky. I think only 2 people have collected in the 4 years that I've been here. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I think, are we self insured for that, aren't we or through the County? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Not that one. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Aren't we through the County, a special program. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-No, that goes through, that's through New York State on unemployment. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-We report it to New York State, does it? MR. TUCKER-Now Mr. Naylor is gone so I want to talk about his budget. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-You don't have a chance to beat on him. MR. TUCKER-The revenue budget and it's highway funds and it's page 96 in my book. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-In revenues? MR. TUCKER-In revenue budget. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Let me just get everything nailed down here. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-What kind of a number does it got Pliney, the second set there? MR. TUCKER-The current budget is 433,000. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No I want those in the code numbers. Show me your budget and let me get it to my budget. MR. TUCKER-Well the code number I'm looking for you to give me an answer on, is 0040004280. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Wait a minute until I get there. Okay, miscellaneous revenues, highway fund. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Okay, got it, it's our page 7, our page 7 of revenues. COUNCILMAN MONTESI-How many dollars are we talking about? SUPERVISOR BORGOS-You see 360,000? MR. TUCKER-Yea, it's current budget is 10,000, expenses 36, requested budget 10,000 and there's 360,000 budgeted. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Okay, where it says expense it should be revenue, it's just a misnomer, any of these things in the revenue side where it says expense at top, the software needs to be changed, expense here should say revenue. This is where the money shows up from worked down for other departments. For work done on Hovey Pond, the landfill, whatever. It was not done this way based on State recommendations this year, you won't find a comparable number. I've asked the accounting department to generate that, to correct our books, give us whatever resolutions we need, so you can look right at them. MR. TUCKER-Okay, thank you. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Your welcome. Anyone else? It's been an inspirational evening. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I don't know what Pliney was looking at but we've also got real estate, part of the real estate property tax goes into that highway fund too. I don't know which figure he was looking at. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-He was just looking for that particular account number. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yea well it's all 004 in our book. SUPERVISOR BORGOS-Yes. Any other comments from the public on the budget? Hearing none, we'll close the budget hearing. PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED 11 :20 p.m. OPEN FORUM - No one spoke - Closed RESOLUTION CALLING FOR THE QUEENSBURY BOARD OF HEALTH RESOLUTION NO. 582, 1991, Introduced by Mrs. Marilyn Potenza who moved for its adoption, seconded by Mr. Ronald Montesi. RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby adjourn and enter as the Queensbury Board of Health. Duly adopted this 7th day of November, 1991, by the following vote: Ayes: Mr. Kurosaka, Mrs. Potenza, Mr. Montesi, Mrs. Monahan, Mr. Borgos Noes: None Absent: None QUEENSBURY BOARD OF HEALTH RESOLUTION TO SET PUBLIC HEARING ON APPLICATION FOR VARIANCE OF SANITARY SEW AGE DISPOSAL ORDINANCE FOR WENDY JEAN INGLEE RESOLUTION NO. 42, 1991, Introduced by Mr. Ronald Montesi who moved for its adoption, seconded by Mrs. Marilyn Potenza. WHEREAS, the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury is, by operation of Law, the Local Board of Health for the Town of Queensbury and, as such, is authorized under Section 5.035 of the Sanitary Sewage Disposal Ordinance of the Town of Queensbury to issue variances to such Ordinance, and WHEREAS, Ms. Wendy Jean Inglee has applied to the Local Board of Health of the Town of Queensbury for a variance from certain standards of the Sewage Disposal Ordinance set forth in Section 3.050-5, such standard providing as follows: APPENDIX A TABLE I - HORIZONTAL SEPARATION DISTANCES FROM W ASTEW A TER SOURCES TO STREAM WELL OR LAKE OR WASTEWATER SUCTION WATER PROPERTY LAKE GEORGE SOURCES LINE (a) COURSE(c) DWELLING LINE AND TRIBS. Septic Tank " " " 10' " and WHEREAS, Ms. Inglee has indicated a desire to place the septic tank 6' from the property line, rather than placing it at the mandated 10' distance, NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that the Local Board of Health for the Town of Queensbury will hold a public hearing on December 2nd, 1991, at 7:00 p.m., at the Queensbury Activities Center, (reasonably accessible to persons with mobility impairment) 531 Bay Road, Town of Queensbury, Warren County, New York, to consider the application for a variance of Ms. Wendy Jean Inglee to place the septic tank 6' from the property line, rather than placing it at the mandated 10' distance, on property situated on Boss Road, Queensbury, New York, and bearing Tax Map No.: Section 142, Block 1, Lot 15, and, at that time, all persons interested in the subject thereof will be heard, and BE IT FURTHER, RESOLVED, that the Town Clerk of the Town of Queensbury be and is hereby directed and authorized, when in receipt of a list of neighbors within 500 feet of the subject property, to publish and provide Notice of said Public Hearing as may be required by law, and authorized to mail copies of said Public Hearing Notice to the adjoining neighbors. Duly adopted this 7th day of November, 1991, by the following vote: AYES Mr. lCurosaka,Mrs. Potenza, Mr. 11ontesi,Mrs. 11onahan, Mr. Borgos NOES : None ABSENT: None RESOLUTION CALLING FOR REGULAR SESSION RESOLUTION NO. 43, 1991, Introduced by Mrs. Marilyn Potenza who moved for its adoption, seconded by Mr. George Kurosaka. RESOLVED, that the Queensbury Board of Health hereby adjourn and enter Regular Session of the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury. Duly adopted this 7th day of November, 1991, by the following vote: Ayes: Mr. Kurosaka, Mrs. Potenza, Mr. Montesi, Mrs. Monahan, Mr. Borgos Noes: None Absent: None QUEENSBURY TOWN BOARD RESOLUTION APPROVING MINUTES RESOLUTION NO. 583, 1991, Introduced by Mrs. Marilyn Potenza who moved for its adoption, seconded by Mrs. Betty Monahan. RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby approve the Town Board Minutes of October 21st, special and regular, October 22nd, 24th, 28th, and 29th. Duly adopted this 7th day of November, 1991, by the following vote: Ayes: Mr. Kurosaka, Mrs. Potenza, Mr. Montesi, Mrs. Monahan, Mr. Borgos Noes: None Absent: None Abstain: Mr. Kurosaka (1O-21,spec., 10-22, 10-24, 10-28) Mr. Montesi (10-24, 10-29) RESOLUTION TO AUTHORIZE APPLICATION FOR FUNDS FROM THE NEW YORK STATE DIVISION FOR YOUTH RESOLUTION NO. 584, 1991, Introduced by Mrs. Marilyn Potenza who moved for its adoption, seconded by Mr. Ronald Montesi. WHEREAS, the Town of Queensbury is eligible for funds from the New York State Division for Youth, and WHEREAS, Harold R. Hansen, Director of Parks and Recreation, has prepared application for the total amount of monies which the Town of Queensbury is applying for the year 1991 for recreation funds in the amount of $10,000.00 for the administration, supervision and operation of year-round recreation programs and activities, NOW, THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury authorizes and directs Stephen Borgos, Supervisor, to sign the funding application for submission to the New York State Division for Youth. Duly adopted this 7th day of November, 1991, by the following vote: Ayes: Mr. Kurosaka, Mrs. Potenza, Mr. Montesi, Mrs. Monahan, Mr. Borgos Noes: None Absent: None RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING THE RETAINING OF NORTHEASTERN APPRAISAL ASSOCIATES, INe. TO PROVIDE APPRAISAL SERVICES RESOLUTION NO. 585, 1991, Introduced by Mrs. Marilyn Potenza who moved for its adoption, seconded by Mr. Ronald Montesi. WHEREAS, the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury is desirous of retaining the services of Northeastern Appraisal Associates, Inc., to appraise and report the market value of certain property, in connection with an Article 7 tax proceeding, NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby authorizes the Town Supervisor to retain the services of Northeastern Appraisal Associates, Inc., to provide an appraisal report of property located in the Town of Queensbury, at an amount not to exceed $3,000.00, and BE IT FURTHER, RESOLVED, that the bill for services shall be paid from the Assessor's Office, Account No.: 00113554740. Duly adopted this 7th day of November, 1991, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Kurosaka,Mrs. Potenza, Mr. Montesi, Mrs. Monahan Mr. Borgos NOES : None ABSENT: None RESOLUTION TO AMEND AWARD FOR PURCHASE OF COPPER TUBING TO SECOND LOWEST BIDDER RESOLUTION NO. 586, 1991, Introduced by Mrs. Marilyn Potenza who moved for its adoption, seconded by Mr. Ronald Montesi. WHEREAS, the Director or Purchasing for the Town of Queensbury, Warren County, duly advertised, among other things, the purchase of fire hydrants, wedge gate valves/tapping valves and sleeves, and copper tubing as more specifically identified in Contract Documents previously submitted and in possession of the Town Clerk of the Town of Queensbury, and WHEREAS, certain bidders submitted bids for the various items including the copper tubing, and WHEREAS, the low bidder for the copper tubing was Ramsco, Inc., who has now advised that they are unable to furnish the copper tubing as bid and, however, Vellano Brothers, the next lowest bidder, has indicated that they can provide the copper tubing at the amount bid, and WHEREAS, the Town Board has considered its options of rebidding the copper tubing or awarding the bid to the second lowest bidder, NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby awards the bid for the copper tubing to Vellano Brothers and sends its previous award to Ramsco, Inc., with the copper tubing to be paid for from the appropriate Water Department accounts. Duly adopted this 7th day of November, 1991, by the following vote: AYES Mr. Kurosaka,Mrs. Potenza, Mr. Montesi, Mrs. Monahan, Mr. Borgos NOES : None ABSENT: None RESOLUTION AMENDING 1991 BUDGET FOR FUND #40 RESOLUTION NO. 587, 1991, Introduced by Mrs. Marilyn Potenza who moved for its adoption, seconded by Mr Ronald Montesi. WHEREAS, Thomas K. Flaherty, Town Water Superintendent, has requested that the 1991 Budget for Fund #40 (Queensbury Water Fund) be amended by $100,000.00, by increasing the appropriation in Account No.: 40-8320-2899 (Capital Construction, Water Source), to pay for the engineering services of O'Brien & Gere as authorized by resolution #103 of 1991, and WHEREAS, the source of funds is the unappropriated Fund Balance of Fund #40, and WHEREAS, such budget amendment has been approved by the Director of Accounting Services and the Chief Fiscal Officer, NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby approves, authorizes, and directs that the 1991 Budget for Fund #40 (Queensbury Water Fund) be amended by increasing the appropriation in Account No.: 40-8320-2899 (Capital Construction, Water Source) by $100,000.00, and that the source of funds be the unappropriated Fund Balance of Fund #40. Duly adopted this 7th day of November, 1991, by the following vote: AYES Mr. Kurosaka,Mrs. Potenza, Mr. Montesi, Mrs. Monahan, Mr. Borgos NOES : None ABSENT: None RESOLUTION TO TRANSFER FUNDS RESOLUTION NO. 588, 1991, Introduced by Mr. Ronald Montesi who moved for its adoption, seconded by Mrs. Marilyn Potenza. WHEREAS, certain departments have requested transfers of funds for the 1991 Budget, and WHEREAS, said requests have been approved by the Town of Queensbury Accounting Office and the Chief Fiscal Officer, NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that the funds be transferred as listed below, for the 1991 budget, FIRE MARSHAL FROM TO AMOUNT 01-3410-4400 01-3410-4010 $ 50.00 (Misc. Contractual) (Office Supplies) Duly adopted this 7th day of November, 1991, by the following vote: AYES Mr. Kurosaka,Mrs. Potenza, Mr. Montesi, Mrs. Monahan Mr. Borgos NOES : None ABSENT: None RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING ADVERTISEMENT OF BIDS FOR TOWN OF QUEENSBURY WATER TREATMENT PLANT MAINTENANCE BUILDING REROOFING RESOLUTION NO. 589, 1991, Introduced by Mr. Ronald Montesi who moved for its adoption, seconded by Mrs. Marilyn Potenza. WHEREAS, the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury is desirous of reroofing the Town of Queensbury Water Treatment Plant Maintenance Building, which is more specifically identified in the proposed Contract and Bid Documents submitted to this meeting, and which are currently being reviewed by the Town Supervisor of the Town of Queensbury, and WHEREAS, pursuant to Section 103 of the General Municipal Law, it is necessary to advertise for bids and award the said proposed Contract to the lowest responsible bidder meeting New York State Statutory Requirements, and the requirements set forth in the Bid Documents presented at this meeting, NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury approves the general form of the contract and bid documents submitted to this meeting, and authorizes the Town Supervisor and Town Attorney, working with the Town Engineer, to revise or amend the same as may be deemed advisable, with regard to dates, payments, and other like provisions, and BE IT FURTHER, RESOLVED, that an advertisement for bids for the said Town of Queensbury Water Treatment Plant Maintenance Building reroofing be published in the official newspaper for the Town of Queensbury and that such advertisement indicate that bids will be received at the Office of the Town Clerk of the Town of Queensbury, at any time, until, but not later than, December 2nd, 1991, at 2:00 p.m., and that the bids will be publicly opened and read at 2:05 p.m., by the Town Clerk of the Town of Queensbury, and such advertisement shall indicate that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury shall have the right, at its discretion, to reject all bids and re-advertise for new bids as provided by the laws of the State of New York, and BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that Miss Darleen M. Dougher, Town Clerk of the Town of Queensbury, is hereby authorized to open all bids received at the Office of the Town Clerk of the Town of Queensbury, at 2:05 p.m., December 2nd, 1991, read the same aloud, and make record of the same as is customarily done, and present the bids to the next regular or special meeting of the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury. Duly adopted this 7th day of November, 1991, by the following vote: AYES Mr. lCurosaka,Mrs. Potenza, Mr. 11ontesi,Mrs. 11onahan, Mr. Borgos NOES : None ABSENT: None RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING INTERFUND ADVANCES RESOLUTION NO. 590, 1991, Introduced by Mr. Ronald Montesi who moved for its adoption, seconded by Mrs. Marilyn Potenza. WHEREAS, pursuant to Section 9-A of the General Municipal Law of the State of New York, the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury is authorized to temporarily advance moneys held in any fund to any other fund, NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby authorizes the temporary advance of funds to the accounts or funds indicated, and in the amounts indicated, as set forth below: FROM: TO: $ AMOUNT Queensbury Water Fund Highway Machinery $192,000.00 Fund (#40) Cap. Project (#94) and BE IT FURTHER, RESOLVED, that the Town Supervisor, as Chief Fiscal Officer, is hereby authorized to arrange for and accomplish the above-authorized transfers, and temporary advances, and BE IT FURTHER, RESOLVED, that the Town Supervisor, as Chief Fiscal Officer, shall keep suitable records and arrange for the repayment of the temporary advances as soon as possible, but not later than the close of the 1991 Town Fiscal Year, and the Town Supervisor shall also determine the amount of interest, if any, to be paid, upon repayment in accordance with Section 9-A of the General Municipal Law. Duly adopted this 7th day of November, 1991, by the following vote: AYES Mr. Kurosaka,Mrs. Potenza, Mr. Montesi, Mrs. Monahan, Mr. Borgos NOES : None ABSENT: None RESOLUTION APPROVING AMENDMENT TO CERTIFICATE OF INCORPORATION OF THE QUEENSBURY ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION RESOLUTION NO. 591, 1991, Introduced by Mrs. Marilyn Potenza who moved for its adoption, seconded by Mr. Ronald Montesi. WHEREAS, the members of the Queensbury Economic Development Corporation have proposed an amendment to the original Certificate of Incorporation filed with the Department of State and a copy of the proposed amendment to the said certificate has been presented at this meeting, NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, the Town board of the Town of Queensbury hereby approves the Certificate of Amendment of the Certificate of Incorporation of the Queensbury Economic Development Corporation accomplished pursuant to Section 803 of the Not-For-Profit Corporation Law. Duly adopted this 7th day of November, 1991, by the following vote: AYES : Mr. Kurosaka, Mrs. Potenza, Mr. Montesi, Mrs. Monahan, Mr. Borgos NOES : None ABSENT: None COMMUNICATIONS Ltr. - State Department of Transportation, lowering the speed limit to 30 MPH on Jenkinsville Road. RESOLUTION APPROVING AUDIT OF BILLS RESOLUTION NO. 592, 1991, Introduced by Mr. Ronald Montesi who moved for its adoption, seconded by Mrs. Marilyn Potenza. RESOLVED, that the Audit of Bills appearing on Abstract November 7th, 1991, numbering 91506500, 91530900 through 91566100 and totalling $559,277.14 be and hereby is approved. Duly adopted this 7th day of November, 1991, by the following vote: Ayes: Mr. Kurosaka, Mrs. Potenza, Mr. Montesi, Mrs. Monahan, Mr. Borgos Noes: None (Councilman Monahan noted her approval of the audit of bills but stated that she does not approve of the Highway vouchers for 72,396 and 57,839 coming out of the Landfill Closure Fund until we do a cost accounting on that project and see if it's of cost benefit to us.) Absent: None RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING DRAINAGE EASEMENT RESOLUTION NO. 593, 1991, Introduced by Mr. Ronald Montesi who moved for its adoption, seconded by Mrs. Marilyn Potenza. WHEREAS, there has been presented at this meeting a drainage easement between Gaetane Gaudreau, owners, to the Town of Queensbury as grantee, the easement is in the vicinity of the Fuller Road area and is more specifically described in an easement dated November 1, 1991, and WHEREAS, the easement is offered to the Town of Queensbury in consideration of one dollar and it is understood and agreed that the Town of Queensbury will not have to pay anything for this particular easement, NOW, THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED, the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby approves and consents to the receipt of the drainage easement and hereby authorizes the Town Supervisor for the Town of Queensbury to execute the same and to place any seals that may be necessary of the Town of Queensbury in connection with said drainage easement, arrange for the filing of the same at the Warren County Clerk's Office as well as the Town Clerk's Office and the signing of any other associated documents to file it. Duly adopted this 7th day of November, 1991, by the following vote: Ayes: Mr. Kurosaka, Mrs. Potenza, Mr. Montesi, Mrs. Monahan, Mr. Borgos Noes: None Absent: None No further action was taken. On motion, the meeting was adjourned. RESPECTIVELY SUBMITTED, DARLEEN M. DOUGHER TOWN CLERK TOWN OF QUEENSBURY