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1992-04-15 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING APRIL 15,1992 5:00 P.M. MTG#38 RES# 222-226 BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT SUPERVISOR MICHEL BRANDT COUNCILMAN PLINEY TUCKER COUNCILMAN NICK CAIMANO COUNCILMAN SUSAN GOETZ COUNCILMAN BETTY MONAHAN TOWN ATTORNEY PAUL DUSEK Discussion held regarding farm statues. Supervisor Brandt-Called meeting to order. I think some things have come up today, well I'll give you the floor. Mr. George Ryan-What happened today was...was selling statues out there and Mrs. Crayford told me not to sell statues, don't sell anything. I've been selling them every since I've opened. In 1988, I went for site plan review and started selling things this year she has changed that. I sell propane, I got a permit from the town to sell it, she told me not to sell it or sell anything just grown. I do grow stuff, but I've been selling stuff on the street corner for ten years and I've been trucking it in for ten years and grow it. The reason why, you have to talk to her, she's got the reasons. Supervisor Brandt-Here comes Pat. Pat, the question comes up why we start today to say this man can't sell certain things at his store? Mrs. Crayford- Y ou can't sell products something that aren't grown on the property. The reason has come up is because of the Martindale situation and we've learned that when your operating under an agricultural use that you can't sell ag products that aren't grown on the property. Mr. Ryan-Mike, she told me there wasn't a farm in the Town of Queensbury. Supervisor Brandt-Every single place that sells agricultural products imports them from some place Of... Mrs. Crayford-Could be, I can't disagree with you. Supervisor Brandt-The people themselves have already told me that. They can't grow enough so they import them from other places. Mr. Ryan-Shop-n-Save they sell flowers. Mrs. Crayford- They're not operating under an ag use. Councilman Monahan-Mike, I think we have to go back in history okay. George Ryan came into this Town for a site plan review in May of 1988 which predates our present zoning. He got a permit for everything he is doing there. I frankly do not think that George Ryan could be compared with the Martindale's. I would say that he's got more of a farm and garden center like Gardentime, Quaker Farms, Agway, those type of things. He is an entirely different use in my estimation than the Martindale's. Councilman Goetz-Was that type of use approved under site plan review? Councilman Monahan-Yes. Councilman Goetz-As described? Councilman Monahan-George tells that he has done nothing different there than what he did from the time he opened. This has been going on since 1988 and this also rights by use. Mrs. Crayford-In 1988, George applied to use his land as farm class A and B and a greenhouse 25 by 72 feet. During the meeting it was noticed that he had a Class C farm, and they went on to give him site plan review and stated that the greenhouses to be perpendicular to Route 149, etc. Supervisor Brandt-What's a Class A farm, Class B farm? Councilman Monahan-We would have to go back to the old classifications Mike because it predates the ones that are in here so we need the old zoning. Mrs. Crayford-Nothing changed except all farm classifications who need approval now. Farm Class C in 1988 did not require site plan review. Mr. Ryan-If I wanted to do it on commercial scale so Mack Dean told me that's what I had to do. I have the application for a variance it even states it right in here. Public information that's a copy of the transcript, it's worthless because the town didn't have good records and where every you start reading something it says intangible, intangible. Supervisor Brandt-Let me ask a question. It seems to me that we've been fighting this law at least in the three and a half months I've been here over and over and we have a problem with the law. Mrs. Crayford-Yes we do. Supervisor Brandt-A major problem with the law. Mrs. Crayford-I agree. Supervisor Brandt-Until we rewrite it why don't we ignore it. Mrs. Crayford-I don't think we can do that. Supervisor Brandt-I do. Councilman Monahan-My feeling is Mike how do you hit somebody that's been legal since 1988 and all of a sudden in 1992 say no. Mrs. Crayford-Listen to me please. He is only legal to sell what you are allowed to sell under agricultural use and that's was not figurines. I think you were given injustice and that you were told that. Councilman Monahan-The point of it is Mike all during this time he has gotten permits. He's got a permit to sell propane, I saw it there today. He's got a permit for every building that's been put up there. If he was going to be stopped he should have been stopped then. Mr. Ryan-I come to the Town, I used to sell christmas trees at Price Chopper parking lot. I come down to the town, I had to get permits. I had to get bonded. I had the sheriff come and shut me down, she didn't work for the town back then. Today, Francis sells christmas trees down there and they got a new law for him cause he has a business. I've done everything from the bottom and everything from the town. I don't cheat nobody, I ain't cheating anybody. Mrs. Crayford-I agree with you. I think your in a very very difficult situation in many ways it's been unfair to you. Councilman Goetz-When they do site plan review do they spell out specifically what they can sell? Councilman Monahan-But there is enough of what I think Hilda Mann said you could pick up to know that at that time they expected him to bring stuff in and I'll try to find it here because I did look this over. Councilman Caimano- There is a common sense here what we've got to get back too. Mann gave permission to operate. You say, well you agree with them you hate to put him in this position. The government should not be putting it's citizens in positions. The government should recognize the position's are there and solve the problem. It doesn't solve the problem by all of a sudden when the man's business starts saying, oop's sorry you can't do that now, that doesn't solve the problem. Councilman Monahan-Particularly when he's been allowed to do it for four years. Councilman Caimano-It's absolutely ridiculous. Councilman Monahan-I don't think that you respond to how you treat your systems by complaints. Councilman Tucker-What authority does the Town Board have as far as that law is concerned? Attorney Dusek-You always have the right to start as a board to change the law or add something else to it. You know what that entails going through a public hearing or whatever else. You ultimately as a Town Board have the final say in all laws because you can legislate. The question here seems to be though, I want to see if I can understand here what's happening. This gentlemen is in an agricultural district is that correct? Mrs. Crayford-Yes. Attorney Dusek-In the agricultural district it is my understanding that you are allowed to not only grow things, but you can also sell things is that correct. Mrs. Crayford-Grown on the property. Attorney Dusek-Basically there are no restrictions in terms of what you can sell as long as it's farm produce of some nature. Mrs. Crayford-Grown on the property. Attorney Dusek-Is there any restrictions the nature of the items that can be grown, is that defined someplace. Mrs. Crayford-Grown on the property. Supervisor Brandt-Did Martindale's grow christmas trees on their property? Mr. Ryan-Martindale worked for the town when I started they didn't have that place, grown... Attorney Dusek-Let me see if! can finish this line if! could. What is it that you have over on your property what's going on on it? Mr. Ryan-I raise plants. Now, I raise, them plants, I got to feed them fertilizer right? I'm in business to make money a living it says right in there. I sell fertilizer if you come in and say, that plant nice and green I say, yeah buy this fertilizer for $2.40. Attorney Dusek-What's the biggest part of your business what is it? Mr. Ryan-Flowers and vegetables. I truck the vegetables in and the flowers, I sell dirt. If I sell the plant why should I send them to Agway to buy the dirt? Attorney Dusek-Do you have any photographs or anything I thought I saw something maybe I can get a better understanding by looking at it. Mr. Ryan-I sell statues. I sell propane. The reason I sell propane it's expensive for me to heat my greenhouses. If I buy so much it comes cheaper. I explained that to them here. Attorney Dusek-The property is clearly orientated, is this generally a picture of the entire property? Mr. Ryan-It's bigger than that. Attorney Dusek-Is this where your activities are confined too? Mr. Ryan-Yeah. Attorney Dusek-Then it looks to me like your selling flowers, vegetables and you've got a couple of statues. Mr. Ryan-It's got a lot of statues. Councilman Monahan-That type of thing that would go in the garden or on the lawn. Attorney Dusek-Pat, let me ask you this. What's wrong with what's he's doing in this photograph. I'm not trying to give you a hard time. Mrs. Crayford-No, I'm fine. The figurines. Attorney Dusek-Isn't it part of what he's selling in terms of his vegetables and flowers? Mrs. Crayford-But, he didn't grow them on the property. I am just going by the law. Attorney Dusek-My thought is the law says agricultural use means management of any land for agricultural raising of cows and or other live stock, truck gardens, horticulture or garden orchards. Seems to me that it's a pretty broad phrase that would include like a lot of activities that are related to gardening and flowering. That could include that now the plants, but also the soil, fertilizer, figurines... Mrs. Crayford-Excuse me, but what did the Zoning Board just decide last month with the Martindale's that they couldn't zone non-ag products. Councilman Monahan-We don't have two comparable type of things going on. Attorney Dusek-Do you have a copy of that decision? Councilman Monahan-No we don't. I'm sorry, but don't they have a more of a farm and garden center... Attorney Dusek -You just raised a good point. The Zoning Board decision as I understand it is in question right now anyway is it going to be reviewed or something? Mrs. Crayford-Not that one. Attorney Dusek-The whole decision is up for grabs. Mrs. Crayford-Just the one about augmenting is going to be discussed. Councilman Caimano-But again, now I'll ask you for common sense. What does the Martindale situation have to do with this gentlemen anymore than it has to do with Gardentime, Silo, or even Shop -n- Save. Mrs. Crayford-Because Nick the Martindale situation is operating under agricultural use as is George. Councilman Caimano-Go back to the Supervisor's question. Should we close them all down? Mrs. Crayford-No, change the law to help them. Councilman Caimano-Fine. In the meantime what do we do for this gentlemen who's livelihood is depending on this. Councilman Monahan-Look's to me like Nick, selective enforcement. Councilman Caimano- That's what I think too. Councilman Monahan-I call this selective enforcement. If I call up and complain about something that's when the law is going to get enforced. Attorney Dusek-I'll tell you Pat, my gut reaction is and I'm just coming into this kind of cold and if anybody wants to disagree and please do. But, it just seems to me that what I see in this photographs this is why I asked the questions that I asked is generally a garden, flower, vegetable type operation which is, it might have a few other things thrown in here, but it seems to me it would generally be a agricultural use. I don't know of anybody who is in an agricultural use setting that isn't going to try to get into these other areas of topsoil and other things. Maybe the answer is not, I don't know it's up to the Town Board, but it seems to me you could just broaden, if she's having problem with the definition broaden the definition to give a little bit more flexibility in here. Councilman Tucker-That's what's got to happen. Four or five weeks on this garbage and it doesn't go anywhere let's sit down and redo it. Attorney Dusek-If that's the case why bother enforcing against the guy right now if your going to do that anyway. Supervisor Brandt-The other thing is that's really setting the agenda for the Town Board let us set our own agenda. I like to revisit this law. I'd like to look at it carefully as we have time. But that isn't my highest priority right now just let them go on for a while. Mrs. Crayford-I'd love to leave George alone. Mr. Ryan-Can I say something. I belong to an organization New York State Farm Bureau they sell my insurance and they sell me everything on there. If any of that stuff wasn't to do with the farm would they sell me insurance for it. Councilman Caimano-I don't know. Mr. Ryan-No they wouldn't. Councilman Caimano- The point is what do we have to do to let him know that as far as we're concerned, I'll even go on record we're going to revisit the law to straighten it out. But in the meantime he can continue operating. Attorney Dusek-In this instance, I think we've got to hear the final word from Pat because obviously she is the Town Zoning Administrator. Pat you just heard generally the argunIents I just made as far as agricultural use let me just add to this. The fact that this gentlemen apparently was allowed to do this activity for what four years? Councilman Caimano-Four years. Attorney Dusek-All of the sudden the Town is coming now to say you can't. Is there any need for urgency in your opinion to take this gentlemen to court or start some sort of enforcement action over the next few months? Mrs. Crayford-The only urgent need and I hate to say it is when Carolyn Martindale looks at me... Councilman Caimano-Carolyn Martindale does not run this town. Mrs. Crayford-But, excuse me she has a point. Why can he do something I can't do? Councilman Monahan-Because in the first place excuse me we're not talking about apples and apples type of use. Mrs. Crayford-Yes we are. Councilman Monahan-No we're not. George Ryan has been there since 1988. Martindale's came into this Town, wait a minute they came into the Town under the new regulations and about last year I think is the first that they had anything there. Attorney Dusek-In otherwords to make something fair. I think that in my opinion that if you from the legal standpoint if you buy what I just said if Carol Martindale wants to open up this type of operation on her property she can. Councilman Monahan-If she wants to do a farm and garden center. But she's not a farm and garden center at this particular time. Attorney Dusek-As long as she goes through a site plan review whatever is required under our limits she can do this same type of activity if you say your not going to proceed this way. Councilman Monahan-I have problem. Councilman Tucker-Your shaking your head no. Mrs. Crayford-I'm shaking my head no because she can't under an ag use definition. Councilman Caimano-We're saying he can. Mrs. Crayford- That's what I'm saying to you. Supervisor Brandt-Let us review the law later leave it open. Mrs. Crayford-May I submit something tomorrow. It would be very simple and I will submit tomorrow maybe you can get this done and over. Councilman Caimano-You mean about the law. Mrs. Crayford-Yeah. Councilman Caimano-But, in the meantime what about this gentlemen? Mrs. Crayford-I'm not going to bother him. As long as I know you are working on something then fine. Let me submit something tomorrow please and maybe it will be simple and you can just take off it. Mr. Tom Philo-Can I say something on one thing here. I admire what Nick Caimano says, government in this Town, okay get their act together so a guy can make a living. We have a cripple guy over there named Jessie Stiles let him make a living too. Mr. Ryan-Sir, the guy worked for twenty years around here... Mr. Philo-I hope you make this law so you don't have to... Councilman Tucker-We'll make everybody legal when we write it this time everybody will be legal. Mrs. Crayford-Maybe the Town shouldn't even be involved in the farmers. Mr. Ryan-You know what my taxes are $2,000 a year Martindale's are $200.00. Keep the taxes where they belong let him pay his share to. Councilman Goetz-We're working on that too. Mr. Ryan-Thank you. Councilman Caimano- Thank you. Sorry you had to get all excited, but we'll get it all straighten out. RESOLUTIONS RESOLUTION AMENDING RESOLUTION NO. 217,1992 RESOLUTION NO. 222, 92 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. Nick Caimano WHO MOVED FOR ITS ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mrs. Susan Goetz RESOLVED, to amend Resolution No. 217, 1992 dated April 13, 1992, such that the amount of $ 313.00 is transferred from Office Supplies 01-1330-4010 to Miscellaneous Equipment 01-1330-2001. Duly adopted this 15th, day of April, 1992, by the following vote: Ayes: Mrs. Monahan, Mrs. Goetz, Mr. Caimano, Mr. Tucker, Mr. Brandt Noes: None Absent:None RESOLUTION ENTERING EXECUTIVE SESSION RESOLUTION NO. 223, 92 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. Nick Caimano WHO MOVED FOR ITS ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mrs. Susan Goetz RESOLVED, the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby adjourns from Regular Session and enters into Executive Session to discuss potential land purchase and hiring professional services. Duly adopted this 15th, day of April, 1992, by the following vote: All Those in Favor: Ayes Anyone Opposed: Noes Absent: None RESOLUTION ADJOURNING EXECUTIVE SESSION RESOLUTION NO. 224, 92 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. Nick Caimano WHO MOVED FOR ITS ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mrs. Susan Goetz RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby adjourns from Executive Session and enters into Regular Session. Duly adopted this 15th day of April, 1992, by the following vote: All Those in Favor: Ayes Anyone Opposed: Noes Absent: None RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING RETAINING OF APPRAISER RESOLUTION NO. 225, 92 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. Nick Caimano WHO MOVED FOR ITS ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mr. Michel Brandt WHEREAS, the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury is desirous of authorizing an appraisal to be made of certain property located in the vicinity of the Town of Queensbury Landfill, and WHEREAS, proposal were obtained from three appraisers, and WHEREAS, the Town Board has reviewed the proposals, NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby authorizes the retention of the services of Municipal Appraisal and Revaluation Company, and BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that the amount to be paid to Municipal Appraisal and Revaluation Company for services to be rendered shall not exceed the sum of $1,000.00 without further approval of this Board, and that the same shall be paid for from the appropriate account, and the appraisal is to be furnished as soon as possible and not later than May 15th. Duly adopted this 15th day of April, 1992, by the following vote: Ayes: Mrs. Goetz, Mr. Caimano, Mr. Tucker, Mrs. Monahan, Mr. Brandt Noes: None Absent:None RESOLUTION ENTERING EXECUTIVE SESSION RESOLUTION NO. 226, 92 INTRODUCED BY: Mrs. Susan Goetz WHO MOVED FOR ITS ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mr. Pliney Tucker RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby adjourns from Regular Session and enters Executive Session to discuss contracts, potential litigation, client/attorney privilege information. Duly adopted this 15th day of April, 1992, by the following vote: All Those In Favor: Ayes Anyone Opposed: None Absent: None On motion, meeting adjourned. Respectfully Submitted, Darleen M. Dougher Town Clerk Town of Queensbury