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1992-10-01 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING OCTOBER 1, 1992 4:00 p.m. MTG. #95 RES#536 TOWN BOARD MEMBERS Supervisor Michel Brandt Councilman Betty Monahan Councilman Susan Goetz Councilman Nick Caimano Councilman Pliney Tucker Town Attorney Paul Dusek Guests- Mr. Dick Morse, Mr. Mike O'Connor, Ms. Barbara Hemken Supervisor Brandt -Called the meeting to order LANDFILL DISCUSSION Supervisor Brandt-At the last Town Board meeting we discussed how we should proceed on landfill matters, because of the rolite system that we looked at and many things have happened since then. We are going to need some engineering work, one thing we need to increase our revenue stream there at the landfill operation and that is where Mike O'Connor comes in, he had talked to us potentially taking on Encore paper sludge and that is a possibility. As you know we need more volume more bulk so that we can ...off our landfill so that we can close it and we don't really have a closure plan, we have a closure plan for one segment and then after that we neither know where we are going to get enough material nor the income stream in which to use to close the thing off. With that in mind three of us went down and looked at a rolite process which is basically adding cement to ash from the incinerator and that seems to be usable and there seems to be some margin there to make some money to go with that if we can get it through encon. Since then there was a meeting held by the counties, the two counties where they were negotiating a whole bunch of things in the landfill. Incinerator ash is one of the things that they have to deal with and so I went to that meeting. I was invited to the meeting and I brought up the possibility of the rolite process and they told me you don't have to do rolite why don't you just landfill, we will put a double liner on a piece of the landfill and bring the ash in directly. The other thing I found out was that the reason you do rolite, the reason you put cement with ash is that you raise the PH enough so that the heavy metals in the ash change the chemical structure and they don't leach anymore. Then I found out that our ash coming out of our incinerator already has a very high PH. I was told you had to get to a PH of about 9 to make this work and it turns out the ash that they are producing is 12.5 so it is very alkaline. It may in fact chemically be, have all of the attributes that you get by going through the rolite process. We need to find that out and I have contacted some people to try and get some help to understand the chemistry of it to see if that in fact is the case and to consider it. There is a lot of work to be done and needs to be done right away and there is a hell of a lot of money in that waste stream. The counties are paying about 3 1/2 million dollars to get rid of the ash per year and probably if you landfilled it you could do it for around 5-6 hundred thousand dollars with the double lined and leachate collection system the whole thing. I went to the landfill and looked down at the Zoli area, where Zoli's operation was and it is mostly gone now, most of the material is moved out it is a very stable base under it and you probably could, it would not be unrealistic to look at doing some kind of an ash landfill in that area, if chemically it makes sense to do it. Still we need more bulk material so the Encore stuff becomes important. The county expects to have its own ash landfill made in operation probably in a year, year and halffrom now, for that window of time what I proposed to the county was if, if it is a safe process and if we can either buy rolite or buy some other process, possibly adding a little more...oxide the ashes that they are processing if we can get to a chemically stable and not environmentally damaging product and take it to our landfill will they split with the Town of Queensbury the difference between what it is costing to take it elsewhere and what it would cost if we handled it. They said they would split it, that could be a lot of money for us. There are engineering questions, there is applications that have to be made to Encon there is several things to consider and look at and we need to be in discussions with Encore and possibly another paper mill and Thomson Paper whatever they are called another mill that is interested. How do we go from there, we have got to get some help we got to do it. I propose that we on some kind of contractual basis hire Morse who has been doing our landfill work and get on with it, the Board has suggested that we all talk to him, that is the purpose of the meeting. At our last meeting you said you wanted to talk to Dick before we approve an open ended contract. Councilman Caimano- When I left work to come and talk about emergency budget situations, I did not come here prepared to talk about this, why don't you at least call us and tell us to be prepared for this. I came here prepared to talk about the budget, not prepared to talk and try and question Dick and find out acid side or alkaline paper, I did not come prepared for that. This is just unbelievable. ...Love to have a meeting of nothing but the landfill and do this properly... Just to start what side paper are you making, alkaline side paper or acid side paper. Unknown-We make tissue paper it is a neutral PH. Attorney Mike O'Connor-Speaking on behalf of Encore ... Introduced Barb Temken an engineer and technical supervisor for Encore paper, a stand alone mill, operates in the Town of Moreau the largest recycler in Northern New York. A regional employer...looking for ways of disposing of paper residue of Encore paper...basically we are talking about a material that is 70-72% water 28-30% solids of the 28-30% solids 50% is clay the rest short fibers with a little mix other than short fibers. Encore wants to get all the fibers that they can get out of this paper residue before it goes out the door, they make money based upon reusing those fibers. The process now leaves 28% solids...we have gone to DEC to work out alternative means to landfilling looking for ways to utilize some of the materials. We have beneficial use permits from ENCON one of the use permits is that we can use the paper residue for daily cover in permitted landfills or landfills that are operating under closure orders. Another use permit is that we can use the material for grading in landfill closures we are looking to preserve the air space of the landfill now at the Town of Moreau that has a limited airspace...Ifwe can find other uses or homes for the paper residue it serves our purposes because it may extend the use that we have at Moreau. Right now there is no other permitted landfill that will take our residue. ..try to find an economical way to handle the waste, use our waste maybe not as waste...we understand that you are looking for two things 1. some grading material and 2. daily cover while in operation ... We are looking for some type of relationship where you can benefit from our material we can benefit from the space that you have available which would make more space available to us in the Town of Moreau because we would fill it at a slower basis. Councilman Caimano- This sludge is out of a clarifier somewhere? Barb Hemken-yes Councilman Caimano-Is there anything added to the clarifier for sludge settling? Barbara Hemken-We use ... Councilman Caimano- What about biocides additions? Barbara Hemken- We do not add biocide because the next step in our treatment process would be a biological treatment of the water. Councilman Tucker-This stuff that you are proposing to put in our landfill is the same that you put in Moreau Barbara Hemken -Identical Councilman Tucker-You have all of the permits from the right people to do that. Attorney O'Connor-Yes. Moreau is using it for daily cover and also for grading material....We did independent applications not based on that actual use...Moreau is a consolidated landfill for municipal waste Councilman Caimano-Is there a chemical analysis of this, is that how you passed.. Attorney O'Connor-We submitted test results, to DEC... Councilman Caimano-Did DEC test it? Attorney O'Connor-They accepted the lab results... Barbara Hemken -It had to be tested by aDept. of Health Certified Lab. Attorney O'Connor-1 would like to know what quantities you would be interested in and what financial arrangements you would like to make. You have two goals, one to taking care of the closure operation and an income strearn....we are committed to the Town of Moreau that we are bring all our waste there... Councilman Goetz-You would have to get out of that? Attorney O'Connor-We would have to make sure that they are happy with us. Supervisor Brandt-Noted that we need something like 150,000 yds. to get the contours ... Mr. Morse-I see our function as assisting the Town and that is what I submitted the proposal on, evaluate the potential areas for this product with the rolite to quantitate volumes needed for various items once you have that data then you can proceed in a negotiation and discuss potential revenue stream you are looking at. Noted that he had discussed with DEC that Encore will have to get a 360 hauling permit to bring the material to the landfill. Attorney O'Connor-We are in the process of obtaining 5 beneficial use permits in various stages... Supervisor Brandt-We have a lot of technical work to be done here and we are not staffed to do it. Councilman Tucker-Noted that the residents of the area have to be a part of whatever we are going to do from the beginning. Supervisor Brandt-Noted he had spoken with the environmental committee and they are willing to help...we have to interface with the public...I am asking the board to consider hiring Morse Eng...we will define the tasks as we go. Mr. Morse-I have sent in two proposals....One for evaluating the Encore sludge and the other for application in the rolite area... drawn up tasks coordinating with the Town, legal and Encore staff, evaluate closure plans with reference with specific areas and functions for re-using paper mill sludge ie. daily coverage, general fill, intermediate cover, etc. I can came up with a projected budget, to give you a not to exceed number $4,960.00 if we get into the rolite issue $7,740.00... Supervisor Brandt-The definition of the task is dependent on what we learn as we start the process. This will be for the whole landfill, and discuss this with DEC up front... Attorney Dusek-How does the two proposals Dick, tie in with DEC on the CIR? Mr. Morse-It does tie in ... Supervisor Brandt-Discussed County's proposal regarding ash at the landfill, liability to be handled by the two Counties... Councilman Tucker-Re: Rolite, use the rolite to close the landfill, it would be three years of the total amount of ash coming out of our plant... Mr. Morse-That was based on the assumption that we were only going to be using rolite in the gas vent layer.. . noted that we have plenty of gas vent material found locally... Councilman Tucker-Either way, that we go with Rolite or Ash either one is going to land in this landfill up here at a maximum of three years, is that correct? Mr. Morse-If we filled in the Torrington side there might be a longer lifetime, I have not looked at those numbers over there what volume of materials are required to fill in there, if you had a mono-fill ash fill over there you might take longer than three years. I am not sure there is a back limit line, you have to get a one on three slope up from that... Councilman Tucker-What is the start up time for the Hartford Landfill? Supervisor Brandt-A year, year and a half. A year, year and a half it would be more cost effective to landfill the ash at that point there then it would be to run it through rolite. Rolite is costing $35.00 per ton. You have 45 tons of ash a year from the burn plant, right now, they are sending it to two different places. They sent one thousand five hundred and thirty three tons to Buffalo at $91.50 per ton and sent one thousand eight hundred and seventy eight tons to Albany at $73.00 per ton. Averaging, they are paying $81.00 per ton, costing something to load and truck, if you subtract $35.00 to do the rolite process you got a margin of $45.00 per ton at 45,000 tons is 2 million dollars if you split it 1 million dollars, for Queesnbury. If you landfill it with a liner, then you got a lot more margin to work with there is a margin there of three million six hundred thousand dollars, subtract what it costs to build that, you could have a million and a half dollars a year of income stream...the question is how do you do it most cost effective so it does not do environmental damage. The next thing is enormous incentive to try and make it work, the one thing we do not have is a real plan financially to close the landfill for a long period of time. Councilman Tucker-What is bothering me is the time gap, when Hartford landfill opens, the waste stream goes away, so what happens we are talking a year and a half that is going to be on line and we are talking three years to close ours out... Supervisor Brandt-If! were the county I do not think they care where the ash ends up they care that it is cost effective, so if you go to the double lined system which they would have to, once they built it here why not fill it until it is full. Councilman Caimano-Prudence says also, that you figure out the cost to close the landfill and then you make sure that you cover that cost in a year and a half.... Councilman Tucker-You either have to do that or have an agreement Councilman Caimano- With Hartford. Councilman Tucker-with the two counties, that ours will get closed. Councilman Caimano- The way things go around here I would just as soon get it paid for early. Supervisor Brandt-I agree, that is the key... Councilman Tucker-The one thing we have to do is tie it together so we get the material to do what we want to do and then go from there. Councilman Monahan-Preparation of the site would be fairly expensive, our financial responsibility or counties financial responsibility? Supervisor Brandt-The county is offering it... Councilman Monahan-questioned the pond at the bottom of the Zoli pit. Mr. Morse-According to Jim, that was lined to have a pond for his water recycling...not a native pond... Councilman Monahan-questioned if a lot of natural resources would be covered? Supervisor Brandt-He has got the best of the gravel as I have been told...I would like the board to enter into a contract and get the answers to these things... Councilman Tucker-Both of these processes you want to bring along together? Supervisor Brandt-I think you have to. Mr. Morse-They are both viable income streams to the town and that is a benefit... Councilman Tucker-I guess you realize that you are starting in left field to sell this because all we have heard is how dangerous this stuff is all that... Supervisor Brandt -Untreated that is the fact, it is a matter of proper treatment perhaps that is already happening in the incinerator that is what it looks like. Councilman Monahan-What do we know about contaminants that are run in there that are not supposed to be in there.. Mr. Morse-That is something that we have to ask the county how are they monitoring that... . noted he had a tour of the incinerator they do run their own analysis of heavy metals on a daily basis..I believe it was daily...it is a continuous thing...they sample stack gases continuously...we have to ask those questions...if we are going to have testing we need to spot test this load and have the results before it is processed and put into the fill. Supervisor Brandt -You have two contaminants, an organic contaminant the stuff that doesn't burn right and hazardous waste...this burner is a very very clean burn...the other thing that is more likely is heavy metals that come in and end up in the ash..noted that ash is used in daily cover in Buffalo...noted that he had contacted individual in Canton and Mr. Tarana to give the town more information regarding ash... RESOLUTION TO HIRE A CONSULTANT MORSE ENGINEERING RESOLUTION NO. 536, 92 (Motion was withdrawn) INTRODUCED BY: Mrs. Susan Goetz WHO MOVED FOR ITS ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mr. Pliney Tucker Discussion held Supervisor Brandt-We are saying we are going to do it by the task, by the hours by the fees that he showed. Mr. Morse-We are not going to go over that amount until I, if I have to go over it, I will come back to you and say I need. Councilman Goetz-But there are two separate. Mr. Morse-One is for Ash, the other is for the sludge... Councilman Tucker-You figure you have to bring them both along? Supervisor Brandt-We have the ...to tell him what to do and what not to do, we tell him do not work on this then he stops and no billing. Attorney Dusek-It might be easier to just have a contract with Morse Engineeringjust generally employing him to help the town through the next process of the CIR which will include an evaluation of the use of rolite and paper sludge, and ash at a given hourly rate with the understanding that the town can terminate the services at any time. Councilman Caimano- I would like to have that. Supervisor Brandt-I like that too. Councilman Tucker-Another point that I would like to make is if we do this today, I want to hear from this man, what is going on, keep us informed. Supervisor Brandt-Lets prepare such a document and bring it forth for Monday's night meeting. Attorney Dusek-This will be a neutral document which is really not going to cover any particular schedule of events, it will just hire Morse Engineering with the cut off that you can stop them at any time. (Previous motion withdrawn) Councilman Monahan-I do not know how the paper company feels about this but if we are going to spend money to evaluate using paper sludge in our landfill I want to split some cost there because this is going to be a benefit to you too. Mr. O'Connor-1 do not think you are using us exclusively, there are other people that will benefit from the study as much or more than us and on behalf of one client I do not think it would be fair to really do down that road very far. ... there are some other people that once you start on this course will be knocking on your door...we are here on a preliminary type basis...we would like to know what is available and what the final terms are. Councilman Monahan-We are playing with an unknown and I have a problem with that, we are taking all the risks...I am getting a little concerned the way the landfill closure money is being used and we are not getting any cost benefits back from it....I am not sure we are spending town funds wisely with no backup type of thing? Mr. O'Connor-What you are considering with paper sludge is very sound from an environmental point of view as well as an economical view. We have proven to DEC that it is an acceptable material for the purposes that we are talking about...the Town of Corinth and Wilton is working with paper sludge from IP... Councilman Monahan-Questioned if there has been any dialogue with DEC regarding if they would be receptive to the use of paper sludge? Mr. Morse-I do not think there would be an issue over paper sludge. Discussion held regarding amount of cover to be used... Discussion held regarding if there was an odor to the product....Barb Temken indicated that it is not an unpleasant odor...noted that there are not the chemicals in the process that a pulp mill would have. Councilman Monahan-Does this create a gas? Mr. O'Connor-Suggested that the Board visit the Town of Moreau Landfill which is using the material as we are proposing for Queensbury... Councilman Monahan-Questioned how close where the residences? Mr. O'Connor-It varies with which side you are on... Supervisor Brandt-We will put a contract together ... Attorney Dusek-Noted that there are other things that have to be done like amendments to our local laws, contract modifications with other municipalities, there are a lot of things that you have to do before you get to the point of even accepting paper sludge... Supervisor Brandt - I think you will get a lot of support from the counties and the other towns if they know we are looking hard at trying to accommodate thern... Councilman Tucker-Did we get our extension? Attorney Dusek-We can expect a letter sometime next week confirming the extension for six months... RESOLUTIONS RESOLUTION CHANGING PENALTY DATE REGARDING WATER BILLS RESOLUTION NO.: 536, 92 INTRODUCED BY: Mrs. Susan Goetz WHO MOVED ITS ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mr. Pliney Tucker WHEREAS, it has been brought to the Town Board's attention that water bills were sent to the residents of the various water districts of the Town of Queensbury, which provided that payment of the bills must be made not later than September 24, 1992, or a penalty incurred of 10%, and WHEREAS, the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury recognizes the fact that the water bills have traditionally been sent out such that the same would be payable on the last day of the month and that the Town residents had grown accustomed to this practice and procedure, and that the late payment date selected on this particular occasion arose as a result of difficulties experienced within the Department, NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby authorizes and directs that the last date on which water bills may be paid without penalty shall be September 30, 1992, rather than September 24, 1992, and that after September 30, 1992, late payments will incur a penalty of 10% as is customary and usual with regard to the water district billings. Duly adopted this 1st day of October, 1992, by the following vote: AYES : Mrs. Monahan, Mrs. Goetz, Mr. Caimano, Mr. Tucker, Mr. Brandt NOES : None ABSENT: None Discussion held regarding 1992 Highway Dept. Budget -requested meeting to be set next Monday night at 7:00 P.M. WORKSHOP SESSION 1993 TOWN BUDGET Town Clerk-Town Attorney-Building and Grounds and other various accounts. On motion the meeting was adjourned. Respectfully submitted, Miss Darleen M. Dougher Town Clerk-Queensbury