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1994-11-09 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING NOVEMBER 9, 1994 7:06 P.M. MTG #63 BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT SUPERVISOR FRED CHAMPAGNE COUNCILMAN BETTY MONAHAN COUNCILMAN DR. R. GEORGE WISW ALL COUNCILMAN NICK CAIMANO COUNCILMAN CAROL PULVER TOWN ATTORNEY PAUL DUSEK TOWN OFFICIALS TOM FLAHERTY, WATER SUPERINTENDENT RALPH VANDUSEN, DEPUTY WATER SUPERINTENDENT MIKE SHAW, WASTEWATER SUPERINTENDENT PAUL H. NAYLOR, HIGHWAY SUPERINTENDENT RICK MISSIT A, DEPUTY HIGHWAY SUPERINTEND HARRY HANSEN, DIRECTOR OF PARKS & RECREATION JAMES MARTIN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT SCOTT HARLICKER, ASSIST ANT PLANNER KATE DUBOIS, PRINCIPAL ACCOUNT CLERK MIKE MCCARTHY, CPA PRESS: Moreau Sun PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE LED BY SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE PUBLIC HEARING - PROPOSED 1995 BUDGET NOTICE SHOWN SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE called meeting to order ... Welcome to all of you, it's awfully nice to see so many faces out there. I'll say it again as I did Monday night, this really is government in action and I'm pleased to see we've got some folks here concerned and interested in what the Board's activities have been and will be and are and it's great to have you be a part of it. Before we open the floor discussion, let me just read if! may, my budget or at least the Board's position here to kind of bring us up to date as to the philosophy behind where we are, what we're trying to do and I think it will set the stage for the balance of the evening. As Fiscal Officer for the Town of Queensbury, I and the entire Board are very pleased to submit the 1995 Town of Queensbury's proposed budget that represents a 2.7 increase overall with no property tax increase. This slight increase, that is in the overall budget, is the result of restoring a few positions that were cut from the budget, other improvements mandated by the State and from services necessary to the operation and maintenance of the Town. Further, the drainage problems throughout the Town as we're all well aware of, must receive our attention before we become liable for unsafe environments that require corrective action. Therefore, we have allocated several thousand dollars to improve drainage throughout our Town. The initial understanding for fiscal conservatism was evident throughout our meetings with everyone who had input into the budget. The 1995 Proposed Town Budget reflects the local economic condition as it exists today. It reflects an economy that still remains stale and stagnate in the Northeast and more specifically to our local region. As I am sure that you are aware there were severe cuts in Town budgets over the past two years. These cuts have left roofs leaking, equipment break downs and severe problems in managing the Town's enforcement policies due to the lack of manpower. This practice, if allowed to continue, would severely limit and cripple the Town's future stability. I have to tell you, there have been eighteen employees laid off here since I believe, it was 1991. Queensbury is a progressive Town. Consistently this Town has enjoyed the benefits of a growing retail and manufacturing base. Although there are dark clouds hanging over the area of business and businesses closing their doors and moving from the region, government must still continue to provide essential services at a reasonable cost to satisfy the needs of the people and to improve the growth of our economy. The Board's 1995 Town Budget reflects a $390,637. increase, up from $14,550,615. to $14,941,252. representing that 2.7% increase. But the best news I have to tell you is that Queensbury's County Tax Rate for next year will go from $2.99 to $2.87, there again a decrease of approximately 12 cents. Let's hope that holds. Major impact, at least the areas that have been impacted on the budget would include but not limited to the following. A drastic increase in the New York State Retirement Fund from zero, previous last two years to next year at $37,500. An independent auditor is proposed to examine and develop a uniform code system for all our emergency services for the town, cost estimated to be about $16,000. Litigation against the Town for Article 7's has increased due to recent revals. The amount budgeted for this purpose is up from $9,000. in 94 to approximately $20,000. in 1995. The Building and Grounds Department staff will increase by two laborers needed to adequately maintain the Town's property at approximately $40,000. The Contingency fund for 95 has been increased from $25,000. to $275,000. Funds necessary to provide adequate heat for the Highway Garage increased expenditures there by approximately $9,000. The Zoning budget is up approximately 16% due to the purchase of software for upgrading a software at about $8,000. In addition to a Zoning Enforcement Officer that will be added to that department. The Planning budget increased from a $161,419. to $187,337., nearly a 20% jump. The cause for this is again due to improving the computerization in that department for tracking property and the characteristics of that property. Other increases of approximately $30,000. includes such increases as legal and engineering fees. An extremely high increase in the Town's drainage budget from $45,000. to $137,500. This increase is the severity of the drainage problems throughout our Town as I indicated earlier. In addition to that, to keep our roads and highways in excellent condition the Board is proposed to employ two additional motor equipment operators. Hopefully, this increase will help the Town's eligibility to receive future State CHIPS money. We're proposing an increase in local funding of approximately $65,000. Capital Projects to be funded for next year include $72,500. of which $42,520. will be for the Hudson River Park. That's set aside money. Hudson River Park may in fact never be developed but the funds will be there if in fact the Board chooses to go in that direction. An additional $30,000. will be set aside for the Weeks Road project to accommodate the Route 9 intersection there at Wal-Mart. Basically, that's the statement and with that, just let me review here a couple of housekeeping rules. Our procedure tonight, will be this. You will raise your hand and will be recognized by the chair. You will come up here to the microphone, state your name and address for the record so that we have a record of that. Everyone will be given an opportunity to speak at least one time through. Those of you that may wish to have a second go around, I would ask that we wait until everyone had their chance for one time. I'd like to take a moment if I may also and kind of describe the process that the Board has been through that leads us up to tonight. Early in September the Supervisor sat down with each Department head who came to us with a request for funding for 95. It was at that time in the documentation and justification for any increases was established and we certainly spent time reviewing those requests along with the justification. At that point, early October the Supervisor submitted a Preliminary Budget to the Board. The Board then reviewed the Preliminary Budget and then prepared the Board's Tentative Budget as we will be reviewing tonight. That has taken us, I guess four to five weeks in order to accomplish that. So, the budget that you're looking at tonight is one that has been tentatively approved by the Board. Does not mean that it is going to go for adoption as it is, I'm sure there's going to be more work to be done on it between now and the 21st of November. Now, with that, does the Board have anything more to add before we get into the front cover of the budgets, if you have those, what we call the Tentative Budget summary sheets? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Only Fred that we do have enough empty chairs here in front for any of those people standing and if not, I'm sure we can get some more so that people don't have to stand through this evening. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Sure, you're welcome to come in and we'll take a moment while COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Take a look for an empty chair. There's some right here Margo. Anybody that's got an empty chair beside you, maybe you would raise your hand so those in the hallway can see where they can sit. There's still some empty ones over here. There's alot of empty chairs over here. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Okay, I guess with that, I'm sure some of you had the opportunity to review the budget. We're here for technical input to the budget and I would hope that we can hold to that. So, with that I'll open the floor up for your concerns and certainly discussion of the budget. Who wants to be first? MR. JOHN BOWMAN-What part of the budget are you starting with? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Page 1. MR. BOWMAN-I don't have SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Help yourself. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-There are more budgets up here, if anybody would want one, raise your hand and we'll have somebody bring them to you. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I guess we're pretty well set now. Let's start over again. For those of you that would like to participate, who wants to be first? This may be a short meeting tonight. MR. JIM PIPER-Did you say you're going to go page by page? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-No, let's start where ever you chose to start. I'll ask you to refer to the page number up in the upper right hand corner of your budget so that, that would kind of keep us all on the same track here. If you could do that, I would appreciate it. MR. PIPER-My name is Jim Piper, I live on Meadowbrook Road in the Town of Queensbury. If you don't mind, could I start first on the revenue part of the budget? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Sure. MR. PIPER-Just some questions that I noticed looking at the revenue portion of it and I'm a novice at looking at this budget so I'll probably need some help. COUNCILMAN PULVER-Jim, are you looking at your revenue sheet here or you looking at MR. PIPER-Yes. COUNCILMAN PULVER-Okay, you're looking at MR. PIPER-This from the printout. COUNCILMAN PUL VER-Oh, what page are you looking at? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Upper right hand corner. MR. PIPER-I think it's 1 of the general fund, it looks like when they photo copied this, they cut it off. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Okay, you're starting with page 1, we're there. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-By the way, before you start, I'm sorry Jim but we have a couple of experts over here to my left. Kate Dubois who works at our office and Mike McCarthy whose with an accounting firm that we've contracted for to kind of walk us through this project. MR. PIPER-First of all in the revenues, the sales tax revenue, I see in the current budget there was projected a four million dollar sales tax. That was projected as sales tax revenue and again in next year we project four million dollars? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-So far this year, we've taken in $3,263,000. and that doesn't include the last payment, correct? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- That's correct. MR. PIPER-What do we project the last payment at? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I'm going to say another million. Kate or Mike, is that about where the trend has been? MRS. KATE DUBOIS-About $800,000. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-About $800,000. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It's less then the Summer ... MR. PIPER-So, we're going to be, we're going to have an excess of the four million dollars this year, but yet we're projecting another four million dollars next year. We don't take into consideration K-Mart which is going to generate quite a bit in sales tax. I don't see anything for the Mall expansion which is going to generate an increase in sales tax and also the overall growth of the business community in the Town of Queensbury, your strip malls and everything else. I would think that this four million dollar figure does not represent a realistic figure, that that sales tax figure should be higher. Just an opinion in looking at that and looking at what I see coming down the road. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Right, I would think you're right but from a budget standpoint, if you're going to make a conservative budget that on revenues, you're extremely short in terms of your projections and MR. PIPER-You don't want to over estimate. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- That's right. Mike? MR. MIKE MCCARTHY-Yes Nick, one of things you want to bear in mind too, excuse me, you have to bear in mind too that the sales tax is not evenly distributed where it's collected in the County. And when the Town looks at the sources of sales tax revenue, that you're talking about, you can't assume that all of it's going to stay here in Queensbury or even what percentages. It all depends on how the distribution formula works at the County wide level. So, it's hard to anticipate that without a year of it behind us. MR. PIPER-Okay. Could you tell me what franchise fees are? I, also on revenue which I see franchise fees where the current budget, we budgeted $60,000. But for the last two years, we've seen $92,000. and $123,000. come in and I don't know what franchise fees are. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Mike, maybe you and Kate ought to sit up there by that microphone and Paul, if you could slide over a little bit. MRS. KATE DUBOIS-Franchise fees are what we receive from Harron Cable for allowing them to have the sole franchise for cable in the Town of Queensbury, approximately five percent of their revenues. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Can you hear her? MRS. DUBOIS-Franchise fees are what we receive from Harron Cable for allowing them to have the cable franchise in the Town of Queensbury. It's approximately five percent of their revenue. MR. PIPER-Okay and this year we projected $60,000., already we've taken in $82,000. Now, is that the total so far? Do we have another payment coming from Harron Cable? Or $82,000., that's it for the year? MRS. DUBOIS-There should be one more payment from Harron Cable. MR. PIPER-Any idea what that payment or how they run? Is it like a quarterly break down? MRS. DUBOIS-It's a quarterly payment and this year they've averaged between twenty and twenty-five thousand a quarter. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-So, that's on a low side obviously. MR. PIPER-That's on a low side and we've projected sixty thousand again next year, being conservative. Okay. Okay, building permit fees and I realize that the building industry, especially in the Town of Queensbury fluctuates. But I see next year we dropped the proposed income from building fees to seventy thousand dollars. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I see it. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Where is he? MR. PIPER-It's on page 2, I'm sorry. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It's on page 2 at the bottom. MR. PIPER-It looks like last year we had a good year but then we kind of, we dropped off some this year and I would imagine there's probably another payment coming in or another quarter. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-What you're hitting on in all the questions you've asked so far of course is the fact that, what we've said so often, this is an expense control business. We're at the short strokes when it comes to telling what our income is going to be. It's a guess work and we try to guess on a very conservative side. Look it, we estimated, our current budget was eighty thousand, we're only at seventy- six. I don't know that we're going to make it for even this year. I don't know that we're not either but I'm saying, we're short right now. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Jim, that varies all over the lot. You know, if you have one major construction project like the Wal-Mart and some of the other larger ones, it makes just an incredibly impact on that number. So, we really don't know. That's an unknown. MR. PIPER-I notice that as you look through alot of the income fees if you will that it does fluctuate quite a bit and there's no way that you can actually pin down any of these numbers and try to be more realistic? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-No. Yea, the only way to do it is if you look at the budget it says actual prior 2, prior I? MR. PIPER-Right. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- Those are the previous two prior years and you try to make as educated a guess as you can based on a conservative side. MR. PIPER-And I realize to be conservative you're better off to be a little on the low side then on the high side and then have to make it up some place else. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- Yes, because we can't make it up anywhere. It's not as if we're selling a product or a service. We're simply taking in taxes. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-And we should not be running a deficit budget and that's what we try to be very careful, that we won't end up with a deficit. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Betty, you were a few years ago when it did happen, the sales tax COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-The sales tax was a deficit because it was over estimated and it was a deficit. MR. PIPER-I agree, but I, I don't know, looking at those figures, I think we could have been a little bit higher. I think we've under estimated it by quite a bit. But COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well, you know what would happen? Let's say this comes in higher then that, then what we do where we've got an applied fund from reserve, it shows here on one of these pages, then we would not have to use as much as a fund balance as we've already accumulated or we would have more to replace that out of the fund balance that we use. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Also Jim, Kate, our fund balance has been growing at the rate of a couple of hundred thousand dollars anyway a year, probably at least from some of the history that I went back through, five or seven years. I'll tell you, it's an unknown. You know, it's a crystal ball. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-On the other hand, it takes about a cash of a flow of a million dollars a day to run this. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-We have to go in with a million dollars COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Right? That's where it was the last time I looked. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Yea, your right. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Ifyou look at, there's a sheet which shows our applied fund balance right now and we would like certainly to build that as a safety cushion. MR. PIPER-Okay, just a couple of other questions. As I look through the budget in several areas and not having done that much work in budget but having listened to quite a few people that have prepared budgets, you always seem to submit a budget that's been padded in several areas so that when you meet the budget review committee and you get finished with them hacking away, you have a budget that is workable. I noticed in several areas, the proposal is one figure or what was requested by the Department Head as one figure, what was proposed by the Board, was higher in some areas. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Pick one, let's find out why it was. MR. PIPER-Okay, on page 2 of the actual budget, I believe it's under Town Justices, Department 1110. Halfway down the page, under Deputy Court Clerks, requested was $24,024. Proposed was $43,124. Is that two positions? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-What happened there, Jim, if you look at the clerk full time at $19,100., the first one. That position actually, we realized that all of sudden, it was not a position of full time clerk but rather it was a deputy clerk with the Justice System. Consequently, that $19,100. came down to this other line and that happened after the request was made. MR. PIPER-Okay. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Ifyou add those two numbers together, that's what it is. MR. PIPER-Okay. In miscellaneous contractual, also under the, it would be the next page under Town Justice where they had requested $3,000. and $6,620. was put in. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-That is the actual raises that we put in there for the employees next year. We have no idea what those raises will be, we are in negotiations and that's probably about all we can say about it. But we did put some funds in there and obviously they do show up as part of the miscellaneous contractual. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It will show up in every category under miscellaneous contractual. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But there's other items also in that miscellaneous contractual. MR. PIPER-Okay and the $275,000. contingency that appeared in the budget that you spoke of SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Right. MR. PIPER-Now, was that total contingency or was that a line item of $275,000. in one item of the budget and I noticed as I went through there was a contingency in the Water Department. There was a contingency in the Highway Department. Is that included in the $275,000.? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-No. MR. PIPER-So, we've got $275,000. contingency as a line item contingency by itself COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-In the General Fund. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-In the General Fund. MR. PIPER-In the General Fund? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Yes. MR. PIPER-We've got a $35,000. contingency for the first time in the Highway Department because it doesn't show any line item SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-You're right. MR. PIPER-And last year, I believe also there was no contingency in the Water Department. This year there's $31,000. or $33,000. contingency in the Water Department. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- That's a different taxing area, number one and number two, we're going into three years of heavy construction in the Water Department. MR. PIPER-I saw that because I saw that there was other, in the actual constructural part of it, there was heavy funds there that matched. But I was just inquiring as to whether or not the contingency, the general contingency that Mr. Champagne mentioned, the $275,000. included those others? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-No. They're separate items, Jim. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-And Jim I think, you know, one thing, contingency in Highway, if we have a real bad winter, you don't budget for the worst winter. Last year we had a real bad winter that was more expensIve. MR. PIPER-I agree with you on this. If you review, as you review the Highway codes, the Highway codes look like they've been beefed up and that's why I didn't challenge on the Highway codes because I figured that's probably why we did beef them up. We got hammered pretty good last year with the snow and I imagine that that's probably why the codes were brought up. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Well, one of the things you got hammered with was because we didn't repair the building. We had to jerry-rig heating operation in the Highway Department so that they could work. Some of them are here today and that was part of the expense. We're going to do that again this year. We're not going into a construction project in the Highway Department until next fiscal year. So, again, we're protecting ourselves as to what might happen. MR. PIPER-Now this year in the Highway Department, are we on natural gas or are we still on fuel oil? I noticed they put a gas line in here a couple of months ago. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-We will be fuel, oh I'm sorry, we'll be natural gas. Although, one burner, Paul you're here. The new heating system that's going in will be natural gas. What are we doing with the existing heating units? They'll stay on oil, is that correct? HIGHWAY SUPERINTENDENT, PAUL H. NAYLOR-Yea, but it won't be working, probably going to the junk yard. MR. PIPER-Okay, and just one other question. You eluded to the money that was included in this year's budget for drainage. I think it went from thirty-five thousand, or forty thousand to a hundred and thirty some thousand. Is that earmarked for a specific area or is that just, drainage is that bad in the Town of Queensbury so we're going to put that much extra money into drainage? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-That's a good question. I think we're aware of some of the drainage problems that are out there. To be specific in terms oflocation, I guess I can only say North Queensbury, South Queensbury and West Glens Falls. Those are the problem areas that we'll be addressing. But in terms of going out there and estimating the actual cost, Jim, we really have not done that. MR. PIPER-The only question I had, I was wondering if alot of that money might be targeted towards Hampton Court and I was wondering at what position the Town has as far as recovering any of the money from the contractor who built that development? I mean, original, when I looked at that and saw that much money in drainage, I kind of thought maybe that's where it was headed and for the Town to project that much money into a private development SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Yea, you're absolutely right. Obviously that's, again, in litigation or will be or could be, I don't know yet. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I think maybe we'll let the attorney answer that part as far as Hampton Court is concerned. But I think you know, there's more then Hampton Court. We've got the Cleverdale area that's got extreme drainage. People along Meadowbrook have reported bad drainage through there. We've got along problem areas in this Town. MR. PIPER-Well, it depends on who you talk to on Meadowbrook Road. It depends on what meeting we're in, Betty. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But, you know, it's almost an unknown what we're going to see in drainage because drainage is a big problem that's happening in this Town from the intense development that's happened, so much of it's gone under the roof. MR. PIPER-Thank you very much. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you, Jim. Next, anyone? ATTORNEY PAUL PONTIFF -Good evening, my name is Paul Pontiff and although I no longer am a resident of the Town of Queensbury, I sit here as a Representative Attorney for the Fire Companies and the Rescue Squads in the Town of Queensbury. I have a couple of questions and comments that I think should be aired and discussed. Not specifics with respect to the budget that stands in front of us but I was looking at the minutes from the Board meeting on Monday night and a couple of things occurred to me as a result of that. There is a comment that's made a number of times about negotiations and I think it's important that the we think about negotiations with respect to the fire service and the rescue squads or the emergency services. From my understanding, there have not been negotiations and I would propose, as a representative of those organizations that we schedule a meeting to specifically negotiate the line items in the budgets that have been presented on behalf of those organizations. Secondly, I see a comment that in arriving at the figures that were arrived at in the budgets for the Town, for each of the fire companies and the emergency squads that there was a beginning point, that zero and added to that was the debt that they had incurred and that was going to be taken care of. What the fixed expenses were and that was going to be taken care of and what do they absolutely have to have as far as equipment. I'm not sure that, that latter part has been negotiated sufficiently to arrive at an informed answer. There maybe different opinions with respect to what's required, in the way of equipment. Some may come from the Board and some may come from the people who function within those services. So, I think we need to address that question and I think we need to come to some resolution about that perhaps rather then just saying this is the figure that we're going to deal with. There is a comment in the minutes that these services were given ample opportunity to justify their numbers. But I'm not given that same information in my conversations with these folks. I don't think based upon the data that I have that they were afforded the opportunity to sit down and line item by line item discuss their budgets and make an attempt to justify those items that appear in those budgets. There's a comment that someone moved here some sixteen years ago and felt that the fire protection wasn't better today then it was then. I have to tell you that I lived in the Town of Queensbury for some twenty-six or twenty-seven years from 1965 through about 79, I'm sorry though about 90 and I was a member of Queensbury Central for many of those years and I know that in 1969 when I joined the fire company, there was alot less available in the way of protection then there is today and sixteen years ago there was less available then there is today. The question is whether or not what's available is adequate and whether it is an overkill and whether it's appropriate for the exposures that exist in the Town. There is a comment about truck fund money. I think it's pretty clear that truck fund money can't be set aside by the Town as a separate item. It can be, there can be a fund established but to identify it for that purpose, I think is not appropriate. If the businesses which are negotiating now for contracts to provide services to the Town, whether it be the accounting service or any other service that the Town buys, including emergency services are not responsible then the Town shouldn't be dealing with them. If they are going to have an opportunity to present and provide the services that they are contracting for, then I think it's important that the Town allow them opportunity to expose that service and also to make available on a good accounting basis, the dollars to replace their equipment as obsolescence occurs and I think that has to be looked at. There may have been some discussions but I think discussions that have occurred may have been on an individual basis and I think now you're looking at an organization that is providing services to the Town overall even though they are separate corporate entities in a way that they expect to be treated as a professional group and expect to be treated as any other organization or company that provides services to the Town. I think a couple of comments, if any of these organizations dissolve and this was discussed at the meeting the other night and appeared in the minutes and Paul gave a correct answer to that question. As non-for-profit entities, they are restricted by what the internal revenue code provides with respect to dissolution and their assets at that point in time would have to be distributed pursuant to court order to another qualified 501 C3 Organization. That doesn't necessarily mean it would have to go to a fire company although it seems to me that who else would want a fire truck. But, certainly the law does require that the assets be distributed to another 501C3 Organization as required by a Justice of the Supreme Court. Just in general terms, I think the reason I'm here tonight is first of all, I've been asked to be here by these organizations and secondly, I have a personal affection for the fire service having been involved in it for a long time. I feel that it's important that we look at the actual numbers. As I said the other night with respect to International Arts and Cultural Association, I understand your expression of fiscal responsibility and I understand it with respect to these organizations but I think they feel that they have not been given the opportunity to actually negotiate with the Town and I think that's my primary purpose here, to establish some basis on which we can engender a meeting or meetings to accomplish that goal. Thank you very much. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Fred, I'd like to respond to that and this is something I've told some of the fire companies. I think it's time now that we all sit down as mature, reasoning adults and do some really tight negotiating that is in ernest. Okay? I would suggest to the fire companies and the EMS squads that they take the figure that the Town proposed for the contracts and they try to work their budget around that and they make it a bear budget, not a champagne budget. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-No pun intended. ATTORNEY PONTIFF-It wouldn't taste bad right now. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That they make it a needs budget, not a wants budget. When they do that and they get this prepared and they find they've got gaps that they feel that they really need to have covered, then I think it's time to come back to the Town, the fire companies as a group, and then the EMS companies as a group. I would assume the fire companies would want their president, their treasure and probably their chief. And we sit there and we work through those items and try to come to some conclusion. But I think they have to take the figure that we've offered first and try to work their fire service around that. And I also would ask that they leave the vehicle fund, not any vehicles that they are paying for now, but any future purchases out of that. We have to come to some way of handling that, Paul, and I agree with you. But I have a little problem now and it really came home to me when you gave us ... articles relative to Bay Ridge when they bought that truck, that any money that these companies are accumulating, don't, I mean they can have $200,000. in the bank and if they go out of business for one reason or another and they don't need all that money to pay their debts, that money can, alot of things can happen to it. It may not come back to the Town. This is taxpayers money, that taxpayers money is really not paying for a service as of today, it's being put there to furnish a future service. I've a little hard problem with that, that the taxpayers money is used that way. We've got to resolved that some way or other. ATTORNEY PONTIFF-Betty, could I respond to that, just before you go on? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Sure. ATTORNEY PONTIFF-I think that can be dealt with. I think if the contract terms provide for dealing with that, should there be a dissolution of the organization that we can structure language which will take care of that problem. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Okay but you see why I would like them to take, the figure that we gave them did not have a vehicle fund in it. It had debt payments for any vehicles they own now, I would like them to look at the figure that way, put the vehicle fund aside for a moment. Let's get that part of the contract so we can come to agreement on it. I think if they go and do their homework, then we all sit down and have a meeting and thrash this out and get to the philosophy of the type of the needs that they have, I think this can be drawn to successful conclusion and we have to do this before the 21st. I mean, we have to get through all the negotiation before the 21st of November because that's when this budget has to be adopted. ATTORNEY PONTIFF-I understand that. I think most of these services have already done that. I think it's a matter now of attempting to schedule a meeting or meetings to address those questions. I think that, at least the people I've spoken with, have looked at the budgets again and have taken a hard look at what they can live with, what they can function with and what they can't function with and I think we're about ready to do that. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-And I mean, excuse me Paul, but these need to be done as line items, you know. ATTORNEY PONTIFF - I understand. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Paul, can't we, prior to setting up those meetings, in a matter of days, like between now and Monday, can we not have an answer, thinking about what Betty has just said, let's say Fire Company A has a $200,000. budget that we have said we feel we can fund only $200,000., can we not get an answer on paper, pen and ink is fine, indicating that, look, we've looked at $200,000., here's where we disagree, we feel that we're going to need $243,000. and the reason is this. ATTORNEY PONTIFF-I think that can be done. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I think that that's what we're looking for. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That's what we need is a new budget that says how close we can come. ATTORNEY PONTIFF-And then you've got to look at that and then you've got to say, well, we need to talk about that. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- That's right. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That's right. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- This is not unique. A year ago, Paul Naylor is here and so is Rick Missita, a year ago when they walked in, they were hit with two hundred and, I don't know, seventy-eight thousand. You have to take $278,000. out of this budget. Now, we don't know how to run a Highway Department. All we said was, this is all we can pay. You guys go back, spend the next week to ten days, tell us how you can do that. They just did that. When they came back, they said, look, we took this, two seventy eight is not realistic. We have to settle for this because this is what we have to do. And we settled. ATTORNEY PONTIFF-Well, I think that can be done. Whether it can be done by Monday or Tuesday, I don't know but COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-You've got until the 21st. ATTORNEY PONTIFF-I think that can be done and I think that's, I think that makes some sense in looking at the actual amount of costs that are involved and what realistically will be expected to be incurred during the course of the next fiscal year. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Right. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Now, Paul I would also say that I think the Town feels that these expenses should be firemanic expenses. We did see some budgets that the expenses are not what, some of the expenses in them were not what we would call firemanic. ATTORNEY PONTIFF-Well, I have not seen all the budgets so I can't respond to that, Betty. Thank you. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- Thank you. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you. Anyone else? Yes, John. MR. JOHN BOWMAN-First of all I'm going to criticize this COUNCILMAN PUL VER- The small print. MR. BOWMAN-Voluminous group of papers here. No tabs and if you hadn't picked one up the day it was printed, you'd have difficulty finding whatever you were looking for, whether it was expenses or proposals or departments, whatever. So, okay, I have a, my name is John Bowman, I live up on 149 and I have a few questions about the fire departments and rescue squads. And I was wondering why after a hundred percent funding a few years ago, do they feel that they need still to an increase in this part of the budget for 95? I also understand that they do have some State mandates and if they are actually State mandates, I would suggest not only the departments in Queensbury, throughout the State of New York plus the Town Boards, see if they can't get some help from the State of New York if they're mandating these. Secondly, each company seems to have enlarged facilities, both fire and rescue, most have two stations and they're, they have new fire trucks and rescue vehicles. So, what is the increase funding needed for? If they want the full funding, a few years ago and they built and bought all these equipments, pieces of equipment which apparently in the budget the Town is going to fund all this money for, why do they need this extra increase now? The other thing I observed and there's probably a logical answer for it, after ten runs from the Bay Ridge Fire Department and Rescue Squad, when I heard the fire whistles blowing, I observed as I say, eight out often runs, came up Ridge Road and went into Washington County. Now, I understand we have mutual aide but I figured it was within the Town of Queensbury. Now, if they're going to run into Washington County, what sort of an offset or payment from Washington County comes into Bay Ridge Fire Company? There ought to be a logical answer to that. Then the other thing is, you have to remember that every level of government plus organizations throughout the Town, County and State and even the Federal Government, they have their hands in our pockets and I can't even keep change in my pocket. There's holes in my pockets and how can low income residents, the elderly and those on fixed incomes support all these requests. I've been retired for seven years. Thank God I'm healthy. The day after I retired, I went right to work on another job. It's not big pay but at least I'm able to keep my head above water but I think all of this should be taken into consideration. Now, there was several years ago when I was a fireman, we used to have monthly functions, suppers, bingo parties, various other functions to raise money. If it's not for firemanic equipment, I would suggest that they think about some fund raisers. I've noticed driving past most of the fire companies in the Town that throughout the day and the evening, there's several cars, sometimes the yard is full, fire or rescue squad members at that station. If they've got time to do that, then I would think they would have time, I would think they have time once a month to put on a function that they could raise some money for some of these non-firemanic items. That doesn't go over too well, does it? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-What else you got John? MR. BOWMAN-Oh, quite a bit. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Okay. MR. BOWMAN-You don't think it's serious or SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I absolutely do, it's very serious. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I think it's very serious. Guys, all I ask you to do is this, the other night, Monday night you guys sat there three hundred strong and beat us to death and we sat here patiently and listened, whether we thought it was true or not and I think they deserve the same consideration. UNKNOWN-Until we left. UNKNOWN-Yea, until we left... COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-You could have stayed here all night, you could have stayed here all day and gone home at eleven thirty like I did. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Folks, we've got to get back to the gentleman here at the mic, please. Thank you. MR. BOWMAN-I was a charter member in Bay Ridge, I helped in pretty much every office in that organization for years. I put in my time and we had many, many fund raising, you know, opportunities which we did, suppers, and other type fund-raisers. You know, do you run an organization, would you run your household the way they want to run these organizations? If you don't have the money, you don't buy something. If you don't need it, you don't buy something. And about the equipment, I think spending a few thousand dollars on repairs is better and would be more fiscal responsibility then turning them in and buying another two hundred or a hundred seventy-five or whatever the hell it costs to buy a new fire truck and ambulance. Sometimes I'm in a position where I see these fire trucks and ambulances taken out of the station and just run around the block three or four or five times. For what? And the other thing is, you know instead of each fire company or rescue squad getting together and forming these little clicks, you know, and badgering and arguing, see if they can't get together and come up with an idea of raising some extra money for themselves. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you. MR. BOWMAN-Okay. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Anyone else? MR. BOWMAN-Now you can boo if you want. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I'm sorry, this gentleman. Can you be next? MR. PLINEY TUCKER-Pliney Tucker, Division Road, Queensbury. Page 12, Fred. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Page 12. MR. TUCKER-In my budget anyway. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-General fund? MR. TUCKER-Personnel. Expenses. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Page 12? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I've got the Town Clerk. Town Clerk, Pliney? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Is that what you've got, the Town Clerk? MR. TUCKER-No, it's to do with, it looks like a new item, 35,000. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Oh, the Personnel Director. MR. TUCKER-Yea, I figured that's what it is. MRS. DUBOIS-That's on page 11. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-No, not in ours. I'll tell you what it is, it's fourteen thirty. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Fourteen thirty, gotcha, page 15 in our's here. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Go ahead. MR. TUCKER-What are we trying to accomplish here? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Wait a minute here, in the middle of the page it says department, it's fourteen thirty . SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Give me your page number again, Pliney, I'm sorry. MR. TUCKER-Page 12. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It's our page 15. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-What we're proposing here is that, and again whether it ever comes to unfold remains to be seen but in the budget we provided for $39,000. for a Personnel Director or a Human Resources person. Someone to be responsible for those kinds of things that deal with the human resource area and it could be everything including the OSAH regulations. It could be sex harassment rules and regulations. That's the kind of activity that this person would oversee. MR. TUCKER-Okay. Page 25. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Do you have a department number? MR. TUCKER-I've only got a few. Department nineteen eighty-nine. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Okay, got it. MR. TUCKER-I probably should know what this is because we put it in the budget before but COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- The management project, is that what you're talking about? MR. TUCKER-Yea, the management project. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-This year we employed a consultant to come in here, work with our various department heads, setting up a, if you will, a point system for salary levels and one of my goals here was to try to identify, we're really trying to do some job valuing, to identify given value for a particular job and we've been through that process. Now, it's a question of possibly bringing in a follow up consultants to work in that same vain, setting goals, objectives, outcomes, expectancies so that we can get this town on some kind of a management by objective basis. Okay? MR. TUCKER-Yes. Page 38, department fifty-four ten, $50,000. proposed for sidewalks. I thought we were going to go out of the sidewalk business. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Except in front of your house, we're building this in front of your house. MR. TUCKER-No, I don't need sidewalks, I've got lawns, thanks. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Anybody, whose our sidewalk person? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It's Doc. It's maintenance for sidewalks, in case we need it. We're not building any more. Remember what happened when you were on the Board, we got caught with our sidewalks down? That's what it's for. It's to make sure that if sidewalks that we own have a disrepair that we have to take care of, that's what it's for. COUNCILMAN PULVER-Well, it's potential for the plowing for the West Glens Falls area where we had the problem last year with the snow along Main Street where the kids were walking and they had to walk in the road because the snow we could remove it. Well, we didn't have any way of taking it off the sidewalks at the time so this is why part of it is in there. If we have to remove it this year because it's a hazard. MR. TUCKER-Alright, it sounds good. 43, department sixty-nine eighty-nine. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Other economic development. MR. TUCKER-I guess it's, principal payments. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Oh, I'm looking at other economic, sixty-nine eighty-nine is other economic development here. MR. TUCKER-That's what it is but I'm looking down the bottom line here and we've got $370,000. in that budget. Is that, that Small Grant, City Grant that we got from, for AMG? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Yes, right. That's the HUD Grant, AMG's HUD Grant that we got. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Right. MR. TUCKER-This may be a dumb question but I'm going to ask it anyway. Is the payment SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Yes. MR. TUCKER-Made by AMG SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-The answer to that is yes. MR. TUCKER-It would show up in this SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-It will show up in the revenue side. MR. TUCKER-In the revenue side? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Right. MR. TUCKER-Okay. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-And it's there. I'm sure it's there. MRS. DUBOIS-Yes it is. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-$67,000., some where in that neighborhood. MRS. DUBOIS-Yes, and change. MR. TUCKER-I've got a lot of them here but you answered alot of them. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Good. MR. TUCKER-I guess on the drainage, you haven't decided. You're putting the money there to look at problems, right? COUNCILMAN PULVER-Yes. MR. TUCKER-You and I talked about this once before, Fred. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Right. MR. TUCKER-You're going to hire some engineers, I hope. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-It looks that way. MR. TUCKER-Okay. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I'm sure your well aware of this, we had about six feet of standing water down in South Queensbury during this past spring and I don't think any of us at this table want to risk lives of the children and what have you, with six feet of standing water in that bowl down in South Q and that's what we're trying to achieve with this. MR. TUCKER-That's between Dix Avenue and the Boulevard? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-That's right. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I was going to say Pliney, I know you're well aware of that because you worked on that alot. MR. TUCKER -Yea, alright. Now, the Highway fund in my budget COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Administration or under the Highway? MR. TUCKER-Not in administration. Just a second and I'll tell you when I find the page. Page 3. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-What's the department number on top? Is this under the Highway fund itself or under administration. MR. MCCARTHY-He's on the actual Highway fund. MR. TUCKER-The actual Highway fund, it's report 111. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Yea, got it. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-What's the number code? MR. TUCKER-Page 3. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It's our page 6, Betty. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-What code are you looking at, Pliney? MR. MCCARTHY-He's actually on the Highway fund. Skip through the General fund and the Cemetery fund. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Fifty-one ten? MR. TUCKER-The fund is 004, report number 111 and it's an itemized list of the Highway Department. Requested by the Highway Department, equipment purchases, $508,000.. Proposed, $8,000. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-How do you like that for cutting? MR. TUCKER-Yea, that's cutting but what's it going to do to the Highway Department? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I'm glad you said that, not me. What we've done here, as you can see the request came in for a half a million dollars in through some rather interesting review, we found, help me with this Paul or Rick if you're here, we found about a $137,000. in there that had been put in earlier as a capital project, okay, for Highway equipment. So, we took that $130 or that $167,000. Am I right there, Paul? HIGHWAY SUPERINTENDENT, MR. NAYLOR-One ninety-two. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-One ninety-two? HIGHWAY SUPERINTENDENT, MR. NAYLOR-One ninety-two. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Okay, we took that one ninety-two that had been building up in there evidently over the course of time and we added to that another, I believe $30,000. that we took about of the General fund to transfer into that Highway Equipment and we purchased trucks with that money. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-In 94. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-In 94. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-In 94. MR. TUCKER-You bought two trucks? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- Two trucks. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-The order is in, I don't think, you haven't got them yet, have you Paul? MR. NAYLOR-No, they're down in Albany Ford right now, waiting to get their bodies put on them. They should be here the middle of December for the first snow fall. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- Y ou hope. MR. TUCKER-Can I go again? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Go. MR. TUCKER-Highway machinery, request COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Same page. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Fifty-one thirty? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Same page, two line items down or three. MR. TUCKER-The Highway Department requested $907,600. and $407,600. was allotted. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Ifyou look up halfway up the page, $500,000. was taken out of there. It's a, it's now a Capital Project Fund as opposed to a line item. Do you see it? The account number is, starting with 00451302040. MRS. DUBOIS-There's would be just the 2, they have the condensed. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Oh, tell them that because I don't know that. Tell them that Kate. On the condensed version it's another number, right? MRS. DUBOIS-It's just point, instead of twenty forty, it would be group 2. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Give me your page number again, Pliney, I'm sorry. MR. TUCKER-Page 3. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-And where is it Kate, in the middle of that page? MRS. DUBOIS-I'm sorry, it's in group 4. MR. TUCKER-I don't know find what you're talking about Nick. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Okay, it's, if you MR. TUCKER-It would be in that one but I don't think it's on mine. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Did you see the Highway repairs totalled up of 678,975, can you find that? It's below that about one, two, three, four, five items. It was put in proposed at half million dollars and it's now zero. It's on our page 7. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-He's on another one though, aren't you Pliney? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-No, that's what he's asking. No, he's asking about the total. He want's to know why the total is that. MR. MCCARTHY-Pliney, you're looking at the department total, it's the same five hundred thousand Fred just told you about. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Yes, okay. MR. TUCKER-Alright. For the 407,600 in Highway machinery, what are we buying there? Do you have any idea? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- That's the total though. MR. MCCARTHY-Pliney, that's the total of the three lines above that. That's the 309, the 8, and the 90. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Is he looking at the 407? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-He's looking, he wants to know what this 407 is. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-He's looking at 407,600 and he wants to know what composes that. MR. TUCKER-Highway machinery. MR. MCCARTHY-That's the total line that you're looking at. MR. TUCKER-Oh, I see. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That's not necessarily equipment, Pliney. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It's under Highway. MR. TUCKER-Right here, it's under Highway and I followed it on across and that figures at the end of it. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-And I'm going to guess for you because I don't have your COUNCILMAN PUL VER-I got it. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-You got it? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Highway machinery, Pliney is 5130 and if you look back up the listing there that is accumulative of that 407, it's all Highway machinery. It's a category within the budget that represents everything that deals with Highway machinery, it's a separate entity. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But it includes, it includes the payroll and it includes radio equipment, tools, insurance, training education, miscellaneous contractual, gasoline. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Highway budget, Mike, help me here. We've got Winter, we've got Summer. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- This is the Sunrmer side. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But what MR. TUCKER-That would be small equipment and COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Yea, batteries MR. TUCKER-Everything bunched together. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Batteries, uniforms. MR. TUCKER-Okay. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yea, it's none of the big stuff. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Mike? MR. MCCARTHY-Basically Fred, I think he's just confused because the way this report is printed out there are several subtotals on this page and it's not very clear that you're looking at a subtotal. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- That's right, it's not. Actually, that's right. You see, the three lines run together. MR. MCCARTHY-Right. MR. TUCKER-Yea, I followed mine right across and it said Highway COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Yea, it's not. MR. TUCKER-And it run all the way across. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Right, it's run together and it's not supposed to be. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Unfortunately, that's the name of the category but it's not all machinery that it's referring to. MR. TUCKER-Yea, I understand now. Let's go to page 4, and I'm probably doing the same thing, Principal Payments COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Wait a minute, Pliney, give us at least an amount so we know what we're looking for. MR. TUCKER-It's fund 4 MR. MCCARTHY-It's a continuation of the Highway fund. MR. TUCKER-Yea, it's a continuation of the Highway fund and it's 4111, the same report. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-And it's how much, how many dollars? MR. TUCKER-Eighty thousand dollars. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Eighty thousand dollars? MR. TUCKER-Principal payment. I would just like to know what we're paying on. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-It's got to be a BAN, right? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Here it is, I see it. It's a BAN principal. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Yes. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It's a BAN principal. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Bond Anticipation Note. MR. TUCKER-Okay. Okay, one more, page 5. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-And then right below that, Pliney is the interest on that. MR. TUCKER-Oh, touchy subject. Fire Protection fund. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-You want to go to the Fire Protection fund? MR. TUCKER-Yea, it's says page 5 here on mine. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-What's the number? MR. TUCKER-It's fund 005 and the amount is $150,000. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Right. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It's the pension fund. MR. TUCKER-Your employee benefits COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It's the pension fund. MR. TUCKER-And pension, is that, that service award? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Actually, this is the department, service award department total. MR. TUCKER-Okay. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yea, I don't know why they call it a local pension fund because it's not a pension fund. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I don't know either. MR. BOWMAN-Is it retroactive? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Is it retroactive? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It was retroactive for a couple of years, John, you should have come back Ill. MR. BOWMAN-Gee, thanks alot. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-What else you got, Pliney? MR. TUCKER-Just one other question, it's to do with the landfill. We're closing that and the information I have is, we're going to wind up with quite a chunk of money there. Where will that money go when the project is completed? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I guess maybe there's two parts to that question. The first part is, at this point in time the landfill is actually operating on a zero based income versus revenue COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But no, I think he's talking about the closure fund. MR. TUCKER-I mean the closure. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Oh, the closure money. MR. TUCKER-Yea. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Okay, that money that we have in that fund upon completion, I haven't got that far yet, come to think of it. Can you help with that COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well, for the first place I doubt if there's going to be that much left. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Well, but if there is money left, where will it go? That's a legitimate question. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But don't forget your committed to upkeep. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Right. COUNCILMAN PULVER-Right, there's still maintenance going to be on the landfill, you still have to mow, do test wells. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Jim, do you want to COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, I don't think, let Paul. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Okay, Paul. ATTORNEY DUSEK-That money is in a reserve fund and under law, a reserve fund once the purpose is accomplished and I think part of your problem is going to be, as was mentioned, you're going to have some anticipated future maintenance costs. So, you're going to need to figure out what that future cost is going to be and then whatever money is left over, if you can, as a resolution determine that there is a surplus, that can be transferred to another reserve fund, another Capital Project. MR. TUCKER-Okay. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Pliney, I think the confusion is this. Everybody knows that we're entitled to roughly two million dollars from the State if we spend four million. Okay, everybody knows that the contract, the base contract has come in from the company that's closing the landfill for roughly two point two million. But there's also been alot of expenses. We've been able to go back retroactive and take any expenses that had to do with the closure and already put that into the State. Paul, what was that or Jim, that check that we got back, was that around six hundred thousand dollars? LANDFILL SUPERINTENDENT, MR. JIM COUGHLIN-Four hundred thousand. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Four hundred thousand. So, that means another eight hundred thousand on top of the two point two. So, we're about three million right there. We've got engineers on top of that. We'll have maintenance. So, I really don't think except for what you want left in maintenance or if a future problem, there's going to be a heck of alot of money left in there. MR. TUCKER-Yea but whatever, if there is any left it goes into a Capital Project? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-What ever is there will be in a fund, it will stay in that landfill fund. MR. TUCKER-Okay, thank you. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you, Pliney. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-And Pliney, if you haven't seen you might want to go up and look at what a neat job they're doing up there. MR. TUCKER-I've seen it and they're doing a great job. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Anyone else care to speak? Yes, sir. I'm sorry. Well, I apologize for that. Why don't you take that chair right in the corner, then I'll know you're going to be next. How's that. I apologize. MR. JEFF WILLIAMS-Hi, my name is Jeff Williams and I live on Glen Lake Road, Town of Queensbury. I'm about a mile from Bay Ridge Station Number 2 and I'm here to support Bay Ridge and all our Town Fire Companies and Rescue Squads to get their funds back. I've lived in Greenwich all my life but decided to buy a home here as a good place to raise our two kids, in the Lake George district and has an excellent reputation for fire and rescue service. It seems this year there's been much negative publicity thrown at our fire companies and it's very unfair. They do great service for our community and it's a great injustice and a slap in their faces. This year I've not seen one compliment from the Town Board towards our volunteers, it's always negatives. Volunteers are expected to go out on calls anytime, day or night, twenty below zero or ninety degrees, for one hour or eight hours, three hundred and sixty-five days a year to help people in need without any pay because they are volunteers. Volunteers are expected to leave their homes and family in the middle of dinner, Christmas Eve, picnics, or whatever to help people and may not return as what happened in Hudson Falls this Summer. Everyone just expects them to answer the call even though they don't get paid but they answer each and every call because they're dedicated and love what they do. I would like to ask one question. Where would this country be without volunteers? I feel the Town Board is short changing all the people of Queensbury by slashing the fire and rescue volunteers budgets as these people are well trained and dedicated people. I would like to join the fire company myself and give something back to my community by I work twelve hour shifts out of town and have a family and I can't put in all the time that's required to properly do the job a hundred percent. One thing that I do know is that I feel really comfortable that my family is a short distance away from the fire company or emergency squad if any emergency should arise. I give much credit and a pat on the back to each one of our town firemen and rescue squad volunteers as they do an outstanding job with the only reward in knowing that they have helped someone in time of need. Thank you for the time to talk. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you. MS. CONNIE TUCKER-My name is Connie Tucker and I live on the Glen Lake Road in the Town of Queensbury and I would like to address what this gentleman who lives on 149, some of the comments that he had to say. It's nice to see, first of all that we still have some charter members from Bay Ridge that are still with us. I've been a member of the rescue squad, this is my sixteenth year. I spent fourteen years with the Bay Ridge Fire Company. When I first joined the organization it was no where near what it is today. We have many, many requirements that are put on us for training. We have many, many requirements that are put on us by OSHA and also with the awareness from the public of their own health care needs and their own fire service needs, we have to be out there and be professionals. The gentleman suggested that we attempt to do fund-raising. We did do this many years ago, back then it was quite easy to do it. Then we didn't have the economy we have today. We had one parent working in the household and the other parent usually home taking care of the house and the family and that's no longer available to us anymore. Ninety percent of the households are two parent employed, have to depend on day care for their children. And some of them want to volunteer their time to their community and it's very difficult to be able to take the time to do fund-raising. As far as the hours that we spend in the building when people may come by and see us working in our buildings, we are working. We're doing training, we're working on our budgets, we're updating, cleaning up and restocking supplies. Alot of time is spent on training so that we're available to give the community the service that they expect and the care that they expect. Sixteen years ago we did not have advanced life support capabilities in the Town of Queensbury. Today we do. Fortunately for us and the Town has been very supportive of the advanced life support services that we're providing and the residents have had to use these services have also been very appreciative. We've had more saves than we've had failures and that's kudos to the people who got out there and spent thousand, fifteen hundred hours in the additional training that was required to get these certifications. As far as going over to Washington County, we do, many of us partake in regional training programs where some of these ALS providers need preceptorship so that they're able to function effectively on their own. As far as Bay Ridge is concerned, we have three of those preceptors that are available to Washington County and we do provide that service for them and it's to help our neighbors so that they would be able to provide the quality of service that the residents of this town get. I hope that clears up some your and I don't want to say misconceptions because I don't really think they're misconceptions, I think maybe it's misunderstandings about what we do. MR. BOWMAN-Okay, but I still don't think the taxpayers in the Town of Queensbury SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-You're going to have to COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Well, you can't have that. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Yes. MS. TUCKER-Thank you. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-What I would like to do if you give me the opportunity is that if you have a concern relative to the budget, we ought to go through that first. We'll stay here as long as you would like to have us but I really would like to get through the budget first and then the other issues whether they be emergency services or whatever, certainly we'll deal with those. But I think since this is a notified meeting of the Town Budget for next year, I really would like to focus on that at this point. Okay? Yes, sir, in the back, John. MR. JOHN SALVADOR-Good evening, my name is John Salvador, I'm a resident of North Queensbury. This tentative budget that we've been handed, does it include any cost accounting changes from previous years? Is it the same code of accounts that's being used? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Yes. MR. SALVADOR-Okay. Is it anticipated that there will be any salary increases for the Town Board members? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-No. MR. SALVADOR-It's not in this budget and it is not anticipated? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-No. MR. SALVADOR-On the first page I see that there's a $107,000. property tax revenue item for cemetery. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Where are you? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-First page. MR. SALVADOR-First page, cover page, tentative budget. It looks like the cemetery is running in the red or the cemeteries are running in the red to the tune of a $107,000. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Kate, do you want to field that one for us? MRS. DUBOIS-Actually the cemetery is becoming more self sufficient as it goes along. Since they've purchased the crematory, it's becoming more self sufficient. MR. SALVADOR-My question is, why isn't it totally self sufficient? You just have to charge enough fee, user fee and it should be no tax drain. No liability to the taxpayer. MRS. DUBOIS-I think the user fees are set by the Cemetery Commission. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-That's correct. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- Yes. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-And approved by the Town Board. MR. SALVADOR-Maybe we need to negotiate with the Cemetery Commission. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-No, the Town Board approves them. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Wait a minute, they're suggested by the Cemetery Commission. Approved and set into place by the Town Board. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Right. MR. SALVADOR - Well, is the Cemetery Commission in business selling plots in a cemetery for people to use? That's what they do, don't they? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Yes they do, do that. MR. SALVADOR-And they keep the lawn mowed and they run a crematorium. Why can't they run it on a balanced budget basis? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-John, so noted, it's in the record. MR. SALVADOR-Okay. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-John, there's a little history to that and I guess maybe I'm going to go into it. At one time, the cemetery owned a great deal ofland. When that land was sold, the most of that money came into the General fund and that's one reason they're running with a negative balance. So, if you look at the history over the years, you can't make a snap judgement just by looking at that figure there. MR. SALVADOR - Well, can we correct that? Can we take that COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I, we couldn't afford to. We built the building behind with the money out of that land that was sold owned by the cemetery and etcetera. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I think we have your concern, John. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-You would have to go back twenty or thirty years in order to straighten this all out and get this going on the way that you're talking about because we would have to pay the cemetery back money COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-And change the law too. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-And you know, the philosophy of the Cemetery Commission now is to have the services in Pine View roughly the same as they are in neighboring cemeteries. On Bay Street, on Union, they may be a little more then ours but they try to keep them some place in a regional concept. MR. SAL V ADOR- Well, maybe something we should consider is privatizing the cemetery. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, it's a service that you get but that's a philosophy, so forget it. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Let's get back to, I understand what you're saying. MR. SALVADOR -Yea, it just never comes up again. This goes down the memory hole, these discussions and the cemetery will never be on the discussion table again. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Because we can't. MR. SALVADOR-Pardon me? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Because we can't. MR. SALVADOR-Yea. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Well, we can't. It is a function of the State Legislature and we can't do anything about it. MR. SALVADOR-The State Legislature created the Commission. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- That's right and the only way to get it out of it MR. SALVADOR-At somebody's local request. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Right and the only way out of it is to go back through the State Legislature. MR. SAL V ADOR- Why don't you? Why don't you? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Well, there have been attempts. MR. SALVADOR-Pardon me? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- There have been attempts and now they'll be more attempts. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But Nick, I don't want to get into this right now because really and truly, I don't care who administers it, you're still going to have that kind of a balance there to do. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- That's true. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Unless you want to put those cemetery lots up to about $4,000. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Okay. MR. SALVADOR-Isn't it true we are the only community in the State of New York that has a Cemetery Commission? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Set by the State Legislature. MR. SALVADOR-We are the only community in the State of New York? SUPERVISOR CHAMP AGNE-I don't know that, John. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That's true, that's true. SUPERVISOR CHAMP AGNE-I don't know. Is it true? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-As far as I know, it's true. MR. SAL V ADOR- That's true. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-As far as I know, it's true. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But there would be no gain for us not to have one. MR. SALVADOR-Okay, I'd like to continue. On page 12, it looks like we're creating a new position or there's never been any COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-What are we talking about? MR. SALVADOR-Page 12. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-It's personnel. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-We're looking at different COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That's the same one that MR. MCCARTHY-Fourteen thirty again, Nick. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That's the same one that Pliney did. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Fifteen thirty? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Fourteen thirty. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Okay. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-That question was asked, John, I think we answered that rather MR. SAL V ADOR-I didn't hear, I'm sorry. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-You didn't hear. MR. SALVADOR-Is it a new position? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-It's a new position. MR. SALVADOR-Okay. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Has not been created, it's a suggestion. It has not been created. COUNCILMAN PULVER-Actually, the Town Board hasn't even had much discussion on it. It's still up for discussion. We ran out of time before we had to present the budget for the public hearing and this is one of the items we still plan to talk about. MR. SAL V ADOR- Well, will it be settled before the budget will be finalized? COUNCILMAN PULVER-Yes, yes. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It will be settled before the budget is finalized, yes. MR. SALVADOR-And then you'll have it in or out? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Right. COUNCILMAN PULVER-Yes. MR. SALVADOR-Engineering services on page 13. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Fourteen forty? MR. SALVADOR-Anything in there for stormwater, wastewater in North Queensbury? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Either it's a part of that or it could be under drainage. We could take some funds out of drainage, John to do that but there's going to be some hard look at drainage in North Queensbury. MR. SAL V ADOR-I understand that last year's budget had $12,000. in it for inspections of wastewater systems in North Queensbury to inspection, required by the Lake George Park Commission. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Where do you see that? Where do you see it? MR. SAL V ADOR-I understand it was in last year's budget. Where, I couldn't tell you. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I don't know, I can't MR. SALVADOR-Dave? DIRECTOR OF BUILDING & CODES, MR. DAVE HATIN-Thanks, John. MR. SALVADOR-Was it? DIRECTOR OF BUILDING & CODES, MR. HATIN-I don't think it was, John. I think it was proposed but taken out. MR. SALVADOR-Jim? EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MR. JIM MARTIN-Sixty-five hundred dollars from miscellaneous contractual for a proposed contract with the Lake George Park Commission that never came to flourish and obviously because the wastewater regulations were struck down. MR. SALVADOR-So, you have the money unused? EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MR. MARTIN-Yes, that's correct. MR. SALVADOR-Will it be returned to the SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-General fund? MR. SALVADOR-Yes. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Sure. MR. SALVADOR-Okay. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Everything left over from every department is returned to the General fund. MR. SALVADOR-Okay, yea. Building and Grounds, page 17. Off the top of my head it looks like we're spending $400,000. a year to cut the lawn. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-John, if you look at the, well maybe you don't have everything we have. But if you look at the categories that make up that money. Let's see, if you look at the categories in Building and Grounds, you've got your superintendent of that department. You've got your cleaners, you've got a switchboard operator, you've got the laborers that clean this building, you've got your working foreman. You have got miscellaneous equipment, you've got tools that he needs, cleaning supplies. Equipment and maintenance. He's responsible for this building, the highway building, the court building. We've got in here money to put in air conditioning. Well, wait a minute, no air conditioning, furnace repair, excuse me. There's electrical repairs, there's telephone repairs. There's utilities for these buildings. There's some fuel MR. SALVADOR-Utilities are included in that account? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Absolutely. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-That's right. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Under State Code, he's responsible to put that in under his MR. SALVADOR - Well, this sheet you passed out to us should be more detailed then. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well, if we put MR. SAL V ADOR-I mean, I'm telling you, this looks like you're spending $400,000. to cut the lawns. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Understand, understand. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-On the other hand, John, if we printed up everyone of these for the public you would give us H E double L because the expense that we went. MR. SALVADOR-Not really. On page 26, contingency. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Department number, John. MR. SAL V ADOR- What would you like? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Give us a number off COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Department number, right in the middle, top of the middle of the page. MR. SALVADOR-Nineteen ninety. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- That's it, thank you. MR. SALVADOR-With such a detailed budget that you prepared, why is it necessary to carry such a large contingency? I mean, you've got a track record from last year, you've got an organization in place. You know, it's just kind of up two percent, three percent, you know here and there. What are the unforseens that could add up to $275,000.? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Well then, how could we possibly answer that question? If it's an unforseen, how could we possibly answer that question? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-John, you've been in business, right? MR. SALVADOR-Yea. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-You've worked all around the world. I'm sure that as you did your thing with oil or whatever it was, you had a contingency fund in there. The State recommends ten percent. We're considerable less than ten percent. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- We're four and a half percent. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-The real point is, if the roof blows off, we want to have a few chips in here in order to put a roof back on rather then waiting until the next year. And you're right, the previous administration, I think had $25,000. in there and I have to tell you, I don't want to risk my neck at $25,000. on a sixteen or a fifteen million dollar budget. MR. SALVADOR-Yea, but if the roof doesn't blow off, you've got $275,000. to SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-You're absolutely right, John, that goes back into the Surplus fund. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-And then we use it to apply for the next year's taxes. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-You're absolutely right. MR. SALVADOR-Yea, right. Okay, Dog Control, thirty-five ten. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Thirty-five ten? MR. SALVADOR-Yes. UNKNOWN-What page? MR. SALVADOR-Page 30. This looks like about three years ago, we were spending $26,000. on this, in this category and then it went twenty-seven thousand. Actually, this year it's thirty thousand and now we're going to thirty-seven and somebody has even requested fifty-one. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Wait a minute, John. Current budget this year is fifty-eight two one five. Actual to date out of that has been spent is thirty thousand six seven three. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-John, there was a vehicle in there. If you notice, there was $14,400. in there to replace the, I believe it's a three quarter ton van. It's a high cost operating van that really don't need that much and it's well over the mileage at this point. What we're doing is will we will be purchasing the van from this year's money and rather then carrying it over to next year, that fourteen four has been eliminated therefore dropping it from the fifty-eight basically to the thirty-seven. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Basically, it's a thirty-five percent decrease in that item. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Right. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-And one of the big items in there, John is vet services most of which gets paid back to this town when people pick up their dogs. If a Dog Control Officer picks up a dog and takes it to the Animal Hospital there's a charge but when they have to pick, and we pay but when they pick up their dog they have to, we have to be reimbursed. MR. SALVADOR-Is there significant amounts of money involved in that? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Ninety-five hundred, that's part of your $37,000. MR. SAL V ADOR- Well, there's another page in here some place that shows the dog tag revenue declining over the years, down to about $3,000. this year. It would appear at first glance that we have a smaller dog population in town and yet the cost of dog control is going up. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Don't forget that this is not, actually, we probably should retitle this animal control with the rabies SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Yea, change that, John. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Change and I know you don't think we should be doing, taking care of rabies cases but we do and most of the people out there in the community certainly want us to take care of rabies cases. And that is, don't forget that's in there under this budget. MR. SAL V ADOR-I believe COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-And I know your philosophy. MR. SAL V ADOR-I mentioned this once before, this dog control program is supposed to be another user fee operation. If you own a dog, you buy a tag. The tag revenue that you collect pays the cost of dog control. Now, we're way out of wack here on the COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But what we're saying is that this person does more than dog control. As far as I know we don't have to get tags for our raccoons or our skunks or the animals that are rabid out there. So, it can not come back in as a positive. MR. SALVADOR-But those raccoons and others, and skunks belong to someone else other then the town. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-John, I've got to tell you, we've been through this a million times and you know, it's beginning to COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-We can't find their owners John, I'm sorry. MR. SALVADOR-But, SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-We're not going to change, John. MR. SALVADOR-Excuse me. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-You're not going to change that, please. MR. SALVADOR-Excuse me, on this piece of paper, the problem comes into focus. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I understand that. MR. SAL V ADOR-A declining revenue and an increase in costs. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I understand, I understand that. MR. SALVADOR-Okay. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But we're not comparing apples and apples. MR. SALVADOR-Well, by God, you should be. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Can we change the title, now that we have an Animal Control Officer, can we change this title of this page? Is that possible, Kate that we can rename this? MRS. DUBOIS-I can check the State Codes for Animal Control. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Because, you know we did appoint her as an Animal Control. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Let's move along. MRS. DUBOIS-The State Codes stayed the same so that you can see the continuity. MR. SALVADOR-Okay, page 39, department fifty-six thirty. It appears that the town is running a bus company. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-What was that you said? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Fifty-six thirty, page 49, Betty. MR. SALVADOR-Page 39. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Well, ours is 49. MR. SAL V ADOR-I haven't seen any buses running in my neighborhood. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Well, we don't get up that far. MR. SAL V ADOR-I pay a hell of a library tax, I'd like to get there some day. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I don't have any control over that either. MR. SALVADOR-All of the taxpayers of this town are kicking into that $42,000. I don't think we're even coming close to getting a benefit. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Do you know what the split is, Mike? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It's done according to the mileage, routes that are covered in our town and I don't have the SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-This is the one that CWI used to do. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, no this is not. This is the Greater Glens Falls Transit. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-You're right. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- This is our contribution. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-And that is our share according to the miles driven over our roads that service our people in the Town of Queensbury and there's a formula that that's done on. I don't have the MR. SALVADOR-I'm not arguing about the formula. I'm arguing about there's an incidents of cost here to a group of taxpayers, I happen to be one of them and we're getting absolutely no services. It's a fairness question. On page 50, seventy-five fifty, Celebrations. What are we celebrating? Or planning to celebrate? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Give me that number again, what's the department? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Seventy-five fifty. MR. SAL V ADOR-Seventy-five fifty. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Celebrations. MR. BOWMAN-For your Christmas parties. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, it's when the kids from SAGA City were here and we had a box lunch for them, those types of things. UNKNOWN-We can't hear you. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I'm sorry, I wish they would give me one of these things that you wear. Part of that, that you see in there that's been spent so far is when we had the exchange program with the students from SAGA City. We did a box luncheon here for them as a courtesy from the community. Those type of things go in there. At one time, we did the fireworks in West Glens Falls, we haven't done those in the last year, probably will not do them again. So, it would cover items of that nature. May not all be spent, doesn't always get spent. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't depending upon what's going on out there. MR. SALVADOR-Okay. Back to the Cemetery fund on page 1 of the expense budget, report one hundred and eleven. I guess it's page 38, I'm sorry. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-What code number have you got for it? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It's under the Cemetery. MR. SALVADOR-It's at the end. It appears that we're beginning to pay someone for their service, personal services. We hadn't been paying in past years. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Where are you, John? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-What number, what code, John? MR. SALVADOR-It says, fund 002, Cemetery fund. MR. MCCARTHY-On the Cemetery fund, Fred it's department nineteen ninety. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Nineteen ninety. MRS. DUBOIS-That's the contingency, Fred. That's your contingency that you put in for the salaries. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Oh, okay, you're right. Those are the raises, John that we put in the miscellaneous and contingencies. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well, they're not actual raises. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-No, it's not all COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I mean, the Union contract has got to be negotiated. We don't know what the negotiations area going to be. MR. SALVADOR-Okay, alright, I see that. Fire Protection fund. There's been alot of discussion on the emergency services and fire services this evening. I would just like to say that, I think your budget for next year should reflect a small amount of money to get into a comprehensive study and analysis and recommendations of where we're going in the future. I recommended this last year about this time or shortly after you took office. You have played with this problem all year long. It's been very highly politicized and until you take it out of the political arena, you are not going to have a solution. I recommend a, whatever you feel, a small amount of money, hire yourself a consultant as you attempted to do and get to the bottom of this thing. You have here on this list two categories of employee benefits and pension fund for the fire services. A $150,000. each. Ten MRS. DUBOIS-No COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- That's not so. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That's not true, John. MRS. DUBOIS-Excuse me, that's a subtotal. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- That's just a mis, that's a misprint. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I don't know why they label that. Those are the fire service awards. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It's the Service Award Program. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Those are the Service Awards Program that were voted by the people in this community for the fire company personnel and the rescue squad personnel and that went to referendum. MR. SALVADOR-Is workmen's comp in one of these? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Workmen's comp, yes. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Yes, it is. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It's the next line. MRS. DUBOIS-It's a separate line. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It's the next line MRS. DUBOIS-And those are subtotals. Each department is subtotalled. MR. SALVADOR-Okay. My point here is that these people who perform these services are in essence your employees. They are not at arms length. When you're paying workmen's comp, insurance premiums for people, they're your employees. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I'm not sure that's so. MR. SALVADOR-They're not an independent contractor. I'll tell you, we jumped through hoops to show that in our accounting that when we have an individual contractor working for us, he has is own workmen's compo MR. MCCARTHY-John, for the volunteer firemen, the State passed special legislation allowing the town to cover them with certain benefits like the workmen's comp and the retirement. Even though they're are still on an independent contract basis, it was specific for volunteer firemen. MR. SAL V ADOR- Well, it's adding up to all the problems that you see, you hear in this room and I strongly recommend that you've got to go to a different type of organization, whatever it may be. But there's, you don't have clear delineation between a contractor who performs services for a set amount of money and functions as an independent contractor and somebody whose on your payroll. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I don't know about that, we have a very clear delineation, it's called a contract. Right? MR. SALVADOR-Okay. ATTORNEY DUSEK-I've researched that out for the Board and it's clear that the fire companies or independent companies in the Town of Queensbury contracts with them and that's exactly the way it's set up. You can check the non-for-profit organization law, you can check the town law, they are independent corporations and I think that is important to establish that for the record. MR. SALVADOR-Thank you. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you. Now, next. Yes, sir, Brian. MR. BRIAN LAFLURE-As I discussed with you on Monday night and as I left the microphone, I offered my hand to you guys in a mode of negotiation and anti-confrontation. I would like to continue that vain. I have a couple of questions for you and they are budget questions. I just happen to be open to the page on the fire budget because that's where John was. It's scary John but you and I have known each other for a long time and where did he go, he's way back, we've known each other a long time, had alot of conversations and we usually don't agree but at least we talk. I do agree with John that I think if this, if we as organizations can not get together with the Town Board, as far as understanding how we operate as private corporations and how that fits into the jargon of the Town of Queensbury, we are considered by OSHA to be employees of the town. The firemen are the employees, the chiefs, the assistant chiefs are managers, management and the town is the employer. Whether we like it or not, we are in that vain. However, everything else that we deal with, the paperwork, the budgets, everything else doesn't work that way. If that's something that needs to be addressed, then that should be addressed down the road in a long range plan and let's get it out of the negotiations today but certainly we should all be conducive to entering into some kind of discussion on that. The question I have for you on the budget and I am on page 5 of the special districts, the one marked Fire Protection fund, the one you were just on. The question that I, I raised this to you once, Fred and I didn't have the paperwork in front of me to ask it to you properly. Under the employee benefits and local pension fund, why aren't there any numbers under 1994, the current? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Well, there's been some transfer of coding of that, Brian and I'm trying here to go back. If you look back up in the MR. LAFLURE-Can't hear you, Fred. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I'm sorry, excuse me. Well, if you go back up, well, I'm not so sure that does show there. MRS. DUBOIS-In thirty-four ten. You'd look at the department line item, thirty-four ten point four is where the expenditure was, previously. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-One line up from that Brian. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-You see, there's been some shifts in the codes so therefore the lines have been moved. MR. LAFLURE-Why is it listed under contractual? MRS. DUBOIS-The State came out with new regulations so that it was moved into employee benefits. This is all directed by the State Comptroller's Office. MR. LAFLURE-Then why is it different for 95? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Because they told us to make it different. MRS. DUBOIS-Because 95 is the year that we, they told us to change it for. MR. LAFLURE-Then why isn't it in 94? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-It is in 94. MRS. DUBOIS-It is there, it's there COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It is, under a different number. MRS. DUBOIS-Under thirty-four ten which is your fire contract and then there's point four. MR. LAFLURE-I'm sorry, the numbers don't line up. I don't think with the COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Show him, Fred. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I'm not sure that, that budget breaks it out. If you look at ninety sixty here okay, and it's a ninety twenty-five here. Last year, it was up in this line item, it was a thirty-four ten. MR. LAFLURE-Okay. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-The State required that we move it and in fact if you go back into earlier years, it's even the third one, Brian. It's the shifting of the State requirements. MR. LAFLURE-The problem that concerns me is that it confuses those people who look at the line item marked contractual as the amount of money that's being paid to the organizations. That's the confusing part. Do you understand where I'm getting from? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-No, I understand. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- The wording is confusing. MR. LAFLURE-I understand that and I'm not finding fault, I'm just telling you that for a person to try to follow from year to year, to understand where the actual contractual expenses are going and where they have been, it's very confusing. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-You're right. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It is. MR. LAFLURE-And that's why I want to SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-You can't argue that and it's confusing to me too. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-And we can change MR. LAFLURE-Do you know what I'm saying. If you were to read this, it says that we got a contractual last year two million two. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Can we change the wording? Can we change the wording, Mike or Kate? MRS. DUBOIS-I can check with the State Comptroller's Office. Basically, they mandate what we do and we try to fall within their guide lines. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Because what you're saying is, it makes it look like our contracts are signed for this amount of money. MR. LAFLURE-The numbers go out to the media, it says under contractual in 1994, it was two million two. However, proposed and requested for this next year are, you know, they're a dramatic change here because there's $150,000. that's somewhere else and if people are just comparing the contractual line item, if you were to just follow across that and try to make a comparison, it's very difficult to spot that. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It is on yours, it's not quite so difficult on these large ones. MR. LAFLURE-I'm talking about what the people get handed out and what the reporters end up reporting. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But what they really need to do is go look at the final line that says Fire Protection fund. There's where you'll find that tracks across to the very bottom line that ends up being one $1,758,100. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- The very end. MR. LAFLURE-Right. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It's the very last figure. And Brian, I agree with you and believe you me, as Town Board members, every time the State says you've got to move this stuff to a different line, we say the same thing. How come we've got zeros in there for previous years? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- You're arguing with the wording more then the line, aren't you? MR. LAFLURE-I'mjust arguing with somebody, a lay person who we have to try to show when you lay out something, when you try to put like the sheet that you guys did from 91 to 95, and somebody is trying to follow across and see, you know, have they gone up or have they gone down. It doesn't truly make sense and that's what we want to look at. MR. MCCARTHY-Excuse me, Brian. MR. LAFLURE-Yes. MR. MCCARTHY-If you want to pencil in the comparable numbers, the 94 budget for those service awards is a $150,000. and the year to date, numbers spent is $73,073. and then subtract it from the number that's on the point four line. MR. LAFLURE-Okay, because if you look at, go into the revenue section of that, you see another line item where it shows the amount of money collected in taxes and the amount of money dispensed under contractual, it shows about a $79,000. difference between the two. And again, like I'm saying to look at that point blank without knowing that this change was made, it appears that you collected X number of dollars for contractual, yet not all of that was dispensed and in theory should have come, should be carried over as and you have a line item, I'm on the wrong page, you have a section where you bring over monies collected for a tax that are put into the next year's fund if it's left over. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But Brian if you look and I'm looking at the big budget so I'm not sure, I mean I know it's on your page but I don't know how, if you look at expenses for Fire Protection fund, the very last figure that says one million five hundred and seventy-eight thousand one hundred COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Seven hundred and fifty-eight. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I'm sorry and then you flipped to the revenue, you would see that, that figure is identical. There's no difference between them one bit whatsoever. So, you know it's just the way they put it together and on the lines, I'm afraid. But when you get down to the final figure, they are the same. MR. LAFLURE-That's where I'm trying to head so that we can make an accurate comparison and see where were at. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-And you know, if it would help, I'm sure for the fire companies or one copy to each, I'm opening my mouth here, Kate, but that you would not mind running a detail page for, each fire company have a detailed page of expenses and of income, if that would help you follow the figures better. MR. LAFLURE-And perhaps a cover sheet with that, that gave us the information that Kate just gave us about how those line items were changed. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Alright. Okay, Kate, will you do that? MR. LAFLURE-Because it's as difficult for us to follow you as it is for you guys to follow our system. We've been around and around and around in this during negotiations and we all know we never seem to be on the same page. I think that would make a big difference. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well, if that will help you, these will be prepared for and will be set to MR. LAFLURE-We know for a fact that you people pay into our pension fund but if you look at the paper that we are handed, it appears that in 1994 those payments were not made and that's the question that we raise. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, they've been made. MR. LAFLURE-And those misconceptions very easily get blown out of proportion and that's how we get into the situation that we get into. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Rumors do go fast. MR. LAFLURE-Absolutely. Okay, I have one quick question on a couple of the different budgets. I've gone through these and alot of these have been answered already. Under your Town Board budget, page 1, a simple one. Where do you put expenses that you guys incur other then your salaries? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Such as? MR. LAFLURE-Your trip to New York for your Association of Towns? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Conference expense. MR. LAFLURE-Do you know what line item that is? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It's the second line. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Twelve hundred dollars, I don't know if it shows in yours or not. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Twelve hundred dollars we've got. MR. LAFLURE-Not on our page. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-You're right. MRS. DUBOIS-It would be in the point four. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Where is it, Kate? Where would it show on his budget? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It's in the nineteen hundred. You've got nineteen hundred, we show a break down between twelve hundred and seven hundred. MR. LAFLURE-Okay. I know that expenses are incurred in that, I was just curious as to where that fits in here somewhere. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-We don't have very many. None of us turn in personal gas, we don't turn in personal this, we don't turn in personal that. MR. LAFLURE-Some is there Betty because in the records I looked at, your's was $530. last year. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That was the conference in New York. That was the conference in New York. MR. LAFLURE-That was the question that I just asked. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yes. COUNCILMAN WISW ALL-I didn't go to the conference. MR. LAFLURE-We knew you were back handling things for us, George. I'm just asking, you know, don't tell me that you don't charge if you actually do, that's COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, I'm saying, personal gas, all that kind of stuff, we just do. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Brian, let's stick, maybe you want to stick just to the numbers, I don't think we need to get confrontational. MR. LAFLURE-I asked a legitimate question of a budget item. I think that's a legitimate question. It appears that you guys aren't going to want to listen to me anymore even though I have some valid questions, if that's the attitude that you're going to take, I can live with that. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Brian, I'm interested in any question you've got on that budget. MR. LAFLURE-Okay, I would also like to raise a question on the Buildings and Grounds. I really think that, that budget needs to be looked at. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-What's the department number? MR. LAFLURE-I'm sorry, sixteen twenty. John asked this question and I just have one other question so that I can make a comparison. I'm on page 17 for those of you in the audience. I have no idea what page you guys are on. In the first group of expenses, page 17, Buildings and Grounds, department sixteen twenty. I know you guys have a better breakdown, can you tell me what the utilities is? John raised that question. I am curious to know how much of the utilities, how much of that budget, the $399,000. is utilities? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-As a percentage or as a number? MR. LAFLURE-No, as a number, a dollar amount. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-It's been budgeted for $24,000. MR. LAFLURE-$24,000. in utilities? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-That's correct, yes. MR. LAFLURE-That would be for the buildings that this department covers. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-That's right. MR. LAFLURE-Court, Highway, this building and the Town Hall? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-That's right. MR. LAFLURE-$24,000. in utilities? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-That's right. MR. LAFLURE-Okay, that's the question that I have. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Now, the good news is, we had an audit down of all our electric bills UNKNOWN-Can't hear you. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I'm sorry. MRS. DUBOIS-Fred, excuse me, that's only building. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- That's right. MR. MCCARTHY-You've got to add up the buildings. MR. LAFL URE- It didn't seem right. MRS. DUBOIS-That's for the Town Office Building, that $24,000. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I'm sorry, yea. Highway has a separate utility. MR. LAFLURE-Can you break those out or no? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- Yea, I'll break them out for you. The Town Office Building is twenty-four, the Town Court Building is five. MR. LAFLURE-Five thousand? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- Yes. MR. LAFLURE-Are these estimated or are these actuals. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Well, these are the budgeted. Actuals are, actuals to date is thirty-two forty- six from the court and for the town eighteen three twenty-nine. MR. LAFLURE-Okay, and what are the other ones out of there? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Well, the Highway Department is in there but I don't, have you got that real quick? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-The cemetery would have their own utility budget. MR. LAFL URE- That would come out of their budget not Buildings and Grounds, am I correct? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That's right. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-And so would the highway. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It would be an addition to the utility bill you're seeing there. MRS. DUBOIS-I think the highway COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Highway budget also, this would not, in this budget, is only those two buildings, as far as I know. MR. LAFLURE-How about this building that were in? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-This building is separated out too. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But it's under Building and Grounds. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- This is part of it, isn't it? MR. LAFL URE- This building gets it's power from next door, am I correct? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It's in the same code number but it shows as a different item. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Is it a different number, a different dollar? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But it's under Building and Grounds. MR. LAFL URE- I just want to find out how much COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Here it is, here it is, $8,500. MR. LAFLURE-So total for utilities that, in other words, not actual Building and Grounds operational expenses but the utilities themselves adds up to what I see $37,500., is that correct? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Twenty-nine and eight is thirty-seven. In actuality to date it's five to what you've got there. Five one four two for this building. MR. LAFLURE-Okay, so in actuality, the actual, if we were to round this off about $360,000. is actual what goes to the Building and Grounds department to operate? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- Three hundred and sixty thousand? MR. LAFLURE-Well, three ninety-nine minus thirty-seven, that gets you, you know, if! subtract forty from four hundred I get three sixty. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- Y ou mean for other operations other then utilities? MR. LAFLURE-The operate, what the guys do? Okay, what they do, snowplowing, landscaping. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, there some repairs and all those kinds of things. MR. LAFLURE-No, I understand that, I'm just saying, to keep a building operating. The reason I ask this question because this is one thing I do have some expertise in, I manage a building with probably twice the square footage of what you guys have here total and I know exactly what it costs me to perform all the functions that you guys do minus the utilities. So, that is the comparison, in my own mind that I'm trying to make. MR. MCCARTHY-Brian, there's also a question of how you're defining utilities. That does not include fuel oil or other items, that's pure electrical. MR. LAFLURE-Define fuel oil? For heating or operation of the vehicles? MR. MCCARTHY-Heating fuel, that is separate. The Town Court building has an additional budget for that. MR. LAFLURE-Heating fuel is separate? Okay, well, obviously we're not going to be able to make this comparison. I won't bore everyone with that. I was trying to make a comparison to what it costs to maintain a building because I know what it costs me to maintain a building of two hundred thousand square feet that I do with a facility with eighteen acres. I know what it costs to operate that facility and it seems to me that this number is high. I'm sorry but it just seems that way. Buzzing through these. Can you explain to me and I know that the explanation is there, it's been a long time since I looked at it, the category marked police. I'm department three one two zero, page 27 in the back. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yea, that's the balance of the contract through Warren County, it's the last year for the Sheriffs Department. MR. LAFLURE-That's the total of what's in there? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- Yes. MR. LAFLURE-Where do your traffic people fit in? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- There in too. MR. LAFLURE-That's in there as well? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- Yes. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well, that and the fifty thousand. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-No, it's in the total of the budget though, Betty. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yes, oh yes. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-When you say traffic people, traffic control? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- The school traffic guy? MR. LAFLURE-I'm in the one marked police, three one two zero. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-The crossing, there crossing guards. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-The first item is $20,000. for school traffic guards and the second item is the last contractual payment to the County for the police. MR. LAFLURE-And that's why the dramatic difference as it goes from year to year, as that payment goes down? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- That's right, next year it will be zero where it says fifty. MR. LAFL URE-Understood. That's all I wanted to know. I thought we were out of the business of paying the County and obviously we weren't totally out of that. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Well, we agreed in the first year of the Brandt administration to a three year, there was never any ending to it so we agreed to a three year cut. We had cut them off completely and Fred Lamy came in and said you can't do that because you'll kill us so we agreed to a three year out and this is the last of three year out. MR. LAFLURE-Understood. You guys have done a good job on most of these others. Without boring any other peoples time, I know that there's other people that want to speak. I have one comment that I would like to make on what I've heard here tonight. As we've gone through the budget and a number of people have raised questions about how you arrive at the numbers that you arrive at to deal with this. I would like you to bear one thing in mind. Every time that a question has been raised about a contingency type budget, or a budget that you develop say for drainage where you do not have exact numbers and you don't know what it's going to be but you are being conservative and want to protect yourselfs for that, that certainly is something that needs to be done. I would however like you to take that vain the next step when you sit with us for negotiations. We were asked a number of times as to what our actual expenses would be for the up coming year. Not, well, what could happen, what might happen. We were asked, you guys should know what it costs you to do the job. And I will express to you the same comments that you've made that you figure in ten percent or whatever it is you that you figure in. In the line items that we give you and you try to compare with me what I have in my line item and what spent in actuality last year, and we know that those line items are not the same, and the reason why they're not the same is I can no, I can not predict what will fail, what equipment will breakdown, what kind of fires we will have, that I'll have a fire that lasts three days. I can't predict those things anymore then you can predict what drainage you're going to need or what else is going to happen. So, I would just ask you, the members of the Board that are going to sit with us to negotiate, to keep that in mind as well. We, if! could read, if! could tell the future, I would have won the lottery last week and I wouldn't be sitting here tonight. So, I think it's important that we all bear that in mind. We all have those things to look at. We are certainly welcome to sit down with you and go over alot of things that need to be gone over and I'm sure that somewhere in the middle there is a difference, there's a number in between our number and your number and that's the number we need to get to. But bear in mind, we have the same problems, the same concerns and the same lack of ability to predict the future that you keep relying on when you talk about your contingency. We all have to deal with that, that's how you produce a budget. And I will tell you right up front, I know you feel some organizations don't deal with it properly, I know from our organization, that money doesn't disappear, it doesn't go some where else. Yes, it is not returned to the town but it is put into a place so that when things need to be repaired or it goes into the truck fund or it is applied to our debt service and we have tried to show you those numbers and I'm sure we have not done as well ajob as you would like us to. But I would be glad to show you those things. The money doesn't disappear, it doesn't go to a secret account that if we went out of business you can't find. You guys know how to find our accounts, everybody knows where the money is. That is very simple. That's not a question. The bottom line is, we know where the money is, if we have not done a good job of showing it to you, then shame on us and this new auditor that we're bringing on line is going to solve those problems and I applaud that. We said that in January, that we wanted you people to have a better control of what's going on but you've got to give us the chance to say what needs to be said and plead our case. We're the first ones to admit mistakes have been made, we have not done a perfect job. We're not accountants, we don't get paid to be accountants, we don't get paid to do anything. What we do, do well is fire and EMS, that's our job and we need your help to come to us. Nick, your quoted in some statements you made last Monday night that you have an accounting background. I think that's great and you obviously have applied that to what you do here. Perhaps you could apply it to us in a little different vain in trying to help us rather then investigate us. Try to say, gee guys, what can I do to make your system work better. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I guess my only comment to that is because of that accounting background, I didn't think of it as an investigation, I thought of it as doing my job. MR. LAFLURE-Understood. I agree with that, I don't have a problem with that. I don't like your comment about the sixteen years but I understand where you were coming from. We all know that things have changed in the last sixteen years. I've been in the fire service in Queensbury for twenty-two years and what we were doing five years ago and ten years, has changed by hundredths of percent as far as activity and what we are required to train for and the types of activities that we have to deal with and emergencies that we have to deal with. So, I think that's important. You are also quoted, Nick as saying were good squirrels. We're real good at putting money away and saving our money. If you guys have a better system of that and you've talked about the deal with the truck fund, then we need to work on that. But let's work on it together and I think we can get something done by the 21st and go for them. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Just one last comment too, Brian and I said that, you are, all of you do that well and for yourselves and properly so except that one of the comments you made is already been refuted when Paul and Paul were talking. If you did go out of business, one of the people that doesn't get the money is the taxpayer. It goes to another not-for-profit organization. MR. LAFLURE-I agree with you there and that's why I think it is very important as is written in our contracts today, right now that we've been under and I forget when the last revision date was, perhaps three or four years ago, that monies that are set aside for truck funds and we have not done a good job of assigning those to accounts, then shame on us. But the bottom line is, we need to address those things, get them put into accounts so that you know where they are and that everybody knows where they are so we don't get to that situation. It does bother me a little bit when I hear alot of talk about going out of business. The fire and emergency services in the Town of Queensbury have been here over forty-five years, some of you forty-seven, forty-eight years, I won't quote the numbers. But the bottom line is when people in the public hear that kind of terminology that we're talking about, there's a fire company in town that's out of business, these are very serious comments to make and if you want to work on John's project of privatization or making one fire department compared to five fire companies, all these things are certainly open for discussion but when you make comments like that, that there's a fire company in this town that's out of business, I know where you're coming from, Nick and I've looked at all their numbers and I've looked at what their saying. Yea, have there been mistakes made in their bookkeeping, the money still was used for firemanic things, it was used to do what needed to be done. Yea, they didn't do it right and now they need to straighten it out but the bottom line is the fire company will still function now in twenty seconds or twenty days or in ten years, we will still do the job. We may have different names, different titles, whatever you guys want to come up with but we're still going to be there doing the job and the public needs to know that. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Brian, if anything I said made it seem like you would not be, I apologize. What I am saying, that is somebody who is fiscally responsible for the taxpayers money, it's also our job to make sure that any funds of the taxpayers are protected and that's what we're saying. MR. LAFLURE-Absolutely, Betty and don't take this the wrong way, Betty but we have come as organizations to the Town Boards, not this Town Board but previous Town Boards and asked for that kind of assistance and every year we get down to and I applaud you guys for getting into this earlier, every year we get down to this time, ten days before the budget, everybody hurries in and we throw our budgets down on the table and everybody goes, I don't know what the hell they're talking about, get them out of here, just give them their money. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I can't agree with you more. MR. LAFLURE-Betty, you've been doing this a long time and I've been doing it just as long. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-As I well remember when we had Doc Eisenhart here and Fran Walter, we did it the method that we're trying to go back to doing it now and I think we're all going to be happy when we get this method in place and get it working smoothly and hope and pray we do. MR. LAFL URE-Understood. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Okay, thank you, Brian. MR. STEVE BORGOS-Good evening ladies and gentlemen. Steve Borgos, Butler Pond Road. Somebody said a couple of months ago on television, they would rather be fishing. I'd rather be fishing right now. I really don't want to be here, I really don't. You're saying, "why don't you stay home"? Well, I'd like to, I've been hiding for three years because I don't want to get involved in daily things but I was at the meeting Monday night and I listened to all the presentations. When Glen Gregory spoke about his accident when the car exploded years ago and burned him and scarred him permanently and said we all need equipment at the fires. I remember that and when Brian LaFlure talked about the tragedy in Hudson Falls in August, I remembered that and I said the least I can do is come here tonight and try on this one issue, to plead with you, to think about what we're talking about and try to change your minds. I want to give you a brief history and believe me, I'm going to condense this and I've just written some notes out so I wouldn't wonder too much. Before I do that, I'd like first your acceptance of the concept that we include in the Minutes of tonight's meeting, of this public hearing, the verbatim comments that were made at Monday night's meeting about the fire and emergency services. So, we don't have to go through all of it again, I'd like you to approve that and request that the Town Clerk prepare those verbatim Minutes and just insert them at this point in this hearing. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Actually, Steve that was my suggestion to Fred when I walked in tonight, that we would so state that they would be taken from the other meeting and included as part of this meeting's minutes and I think the whole Board agrees with that. MR. BORGOS-I appreciate that. I think in fairness to people who read in the future, they'll have the full picture. (portion of Minutes of November 7, 1994 regarding emergency services) DISCUSSION FIRE COMPANY AND RESCUE SQUADS SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Before we do that, I would just like to make a presentation here if you bear with me while I go through this and try and set the stage for the rest of the evening which maybe a good entree into what we're here for. Before we open discussion from the floor regarding the emergency services budgets, I would like to take a few moments and comment about how the Board arrived at its present position. But even before I get to that, I wish to take this opportunity to express the Board's appreciation for the excellent work done by the emergency services and to commend them for the outstanding service they provide to the residents of Queensbury and certainly they are dedicated and committed people. Recently I read an ad in a local paper that said quote "don't let politics undermine your excellent fire and emergency squad services." Honestly folks, this had absolutely nothing to do with the decision that this Board had to wrestle with during the past nine months. The issues had to do with dollars. Previously, funds had been directed to the emergency services to meet their needs to upgrade buildings and equipment. Next year, we plan to direct some additional funds to the highway, water and other departments that also have severe needs that must be met. We plan to expand the infrastructure of the Town to better position the Town for future economic growth and job development and I think you can all agree with that. As your Town Supervisor and your Town Board, we have limited choices on tax increase. It is not the Town Board's role to pick apart the fire company and EMS budgets, or to micro manage their business. However, it is our role to account for the expenditures of every dime that goes out of the door of Town Government. We are a Board committed to help set the level of service rendered to the community through advisory groups and other interested citizens, in serving Queensbury to become a better place to live and work. The board deliberately scrutinized every expense for every agency line by line to determine it's value to the overall organization's mission, and to the degree the expenditures directly related to fire fighting and rescue services. Again, these were tough decisions. We sought and prioritized line items that we felt needed to be funded at the 100% level while at the same time those were cut based on the criteria such as the previous actual expenditures compared to the proposed expenditures. Lets talk for a moment about where we've been with the emergency services in the Town. Again, I'll repeat we are very proud of our people who serve in the fire and rescue companies. We have provided them with the very best equipment and certainly the very best training that money can buy. No one will disagree with that statement. To get to where we are today took major investments on behalf of the town. We no longer have our fire fighters standing on the curb with hat in hand soliciting donations from the public. Those days are gone, thank God. We no longer have outdated, antiquated trucks and equipment. The mission of the previous Town Boards have been completed or at least nearly completed. Where are we today? We are now at a point where it's time for us to be more accountable to our taxpayers. The roaring eighties are over and the tight nineties are in. Now we must ask ourselves what level of service can the Town of Queensbury afford. The Board has engaged the services of a public accounting firm to assist in establishing a uniform accounting system to be used by all emergency services, step one. We believe that this is a start in improving the accountability for all the various services that we deal with. The Board is committed to funding the debt that exists among the emergency services. Further, the extent of the debt load by some companies has got the Board concerned. Trucks and state of the art equipment are up to date. However, the Board reserves the right to approve any future debt as requested by the agencies. This position is necessary due to the extended debt load by some companies and the concern of the Board for over leveraging company assets. Now, the next question is where are we going? Again, as with any business, we must insist on a long range plan combined with long range funding. Both activities must have rationale and criteria to justify the need. The questions remains who will manage these resources? Will the Town hold the funds or should the individual service organizations be responsible. The Board is looking at third party payment of ambulance service. Should you and I continue to pay heavily for insurance that covers the cost of ambulance service whole at the same time pay taxes to support this ambulance service that's a serious question. We need to look at how to reduce taxes by searching for other revenue streams. Further, we believe that through consolidating services and cooperative bidding, additional savings will be realized. To mention a few insurance for example, fall out gear, computer programs, grounds keeping and certainly the purchase of very basic equipment. If this Board has accomplished anything worthwhile in its effort to be fiscally responsible with all Town departments and contractors, it is evident that we have shed some light on economics within the emergency services. Let's talk about future planning. As with any business, again I say and repeat, this Board is asking for a strategic long range plan for buildings and vehicle needs. It is incumbent upon us to determine the capital needs of our emergency services by systematically coming to an agreement with the emergency services companies and the Town Board and we will do this. A capital spending plan that specifies vehicle depreciation, a time frame, building improvements and replacements must be part of this document. Lets work this plan together. Keep in mind folks that the Board has until November 21st, to adopt the Town's 1995 budget. There still remains much work to be done before that date and we will all agree to that. I'm sure that the emergency service's budget will come under full review following this night and Wednesday's night meeting we hope to see you all here again at Wednesday's night at the public hearing. Let's open it up to the fire companies and emergency squads and we'll here for you or anybody else. BRIAN LAFLURE-Before I read my prepared statement, I would like to applaud the Town Board for the statement that you just read Fred. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you. MR. LAFLURE-Had we heard that statement from you guys in the last weeks we would not all be in this room tonight, I think that's to bad. In deference to you Nick advertising pays off. It was very obvious that we got a lot of peoples attention with the ad's that we placed. We felt very strongly about that it was not something that we took lightly. It was not something that was done in anger it was something that we felt was done in need. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-And in deference to you, I'm not getting paid for it either. MR. LAFLURE-Very good. That's why I went to the Chronicle first, I'm only kidding. Before I read my statement one more to you Nick, seeing you and I are on the lighter side. I am not nor am I planning to run for political office in Ward 3, I want you to keep that in mind. I still feel that the statement that I have developed to read to you tonight on top of what you have just read to us Fred, I still think needs to be read. You can take it in the context it is given cause I feel it is important. We too have agonized over what has happened in the last six months or eight months, don't feel that we are out there treating you guys, the guys on the other side of the fence because that's not the way it is. But, I feel I would be remised in not reading the things I want to say. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-As Ross Perot would say, we're all ears. MR. LAFLURE-My name is Brian LaFlure and I'm a resident in the Town of Queensbury. I've also been a member of the Queensbury Central Fire Company for twenty-two years. Tonight, I speak on my own behalf and not for other organizations represented here. I think it's important to give a short history of how we came to be at these crossroads for those who have not been directly involved. Back at the first part of this year we were contacted by the Town Board Fire Committee to participate in talks to look into the formation of a Town Fire Advisory Committee this is a clause in our contracts. Unfortunately after several meetings that were less than productive it became obvious to us that there was a hidden agenda for this committee. We tried to speak as honestly and up front as we could on this subject to help promote a better system for managing emergency services in the Town. We openly admitted to you the short comings in our organizations and in our bookkeeping systems. We worked with you to try and address these problems, we cannot go back in time. After it became apparent that the Town Board Fire Committee was not going to get its own way, such as the prevention of one fire company for purchasing a new vehicle the process was abandoned and not heard about again. This was too bad because there were ideas brought up which could be beneficial to the Town both operational and financially. During this time of conflict the Town Board members put a great deal of misinformation into the media. Their response to us about this practice was that they were well aware of the fact that whoever was in print first no matter its correctness would be most believed and if we didn't like it we could write a letter to the editor. At this time we as a group made a conscious decision not to wallow down in the mud and perhaps this was a drastic mistake. After a time passed it became time to start up talks on the 1995 budget process. We received correspondence from the town indicating their desire for information on our past and existing paperwork. This request included asking for our 1993 cash audit which they specially asked that we not do. We were given only a short time to run around and try to produce the statistics and numbers that they wanted. The first budget meeting we attended started out with us presenting our 1995 tentative budget which reflected a cut from our 1994 budget, Our 94 for budget which was a reduction from our 93 budget. From that moment on and in all further correspondence and talks the attitude of the board was one of perhaps a detective conducting a criminal investigation with hot lights and a rubber hose. All questions were of an antagonistic tone and we would leave these meetings wondering why we had just wasted another evening away from our families with the only thing gained was an increase in everyone's blood pressure. At this point, I think it's important to clearly define our existence in the structure of the town. Weare a fire company not a fire department. At a glance one might think there is little difference. This is true in what the general public might see day to day. A fire company is a nonprofit corporation that provides a service to the town just like a vendor or a contractor. That means that anything needed to do the job or the contract is paid for in our contract dollars. A fire department is a department of the municipality and is run just like another arm of the Town like Recreation, Assessor, Building and Grounds, etc. The obvious difference here is the major purchases like buildings, fire apparatus are bonded and the payments are made directly by municipality. This would also hold true for things like building maintenance and utilities. With this said, I'll reiterate that we as fire companies must have everything necessary to provide the service in the contract amount not shown elsewhere in the total municipal budget. This brings us to the point there seems to be a majoLwith the board and that is the term full funding. This definition was coined in the fall of 1988 which seems to be a magic time line for this discussion. During the negotiations in 1988 the Fire Committee and the Town Board, Ran Montes and Steve Bongos, determined that with the dramatic increase and the time commitment put on volunteers by increase activity and training needed to meet the ever growing scope of work thrust on these people that they should not have to expend their time raising funds to operate the fire company. The means to differentiate between operational or non-operational cost or is called now firemanic and non-firemanic expenses was described in detail to the public in an article printed in the Post Star by Sheila Magee Nason. After it was discussed in several public hearings during that budget process no one spoke against this change, and I have the minutes here with me to reflect that. This was the time frame of the so called dramatic increase in town fire budgets that this Town Board keeps referring too. At this time in contracts provisions were written to insure that firemanic and non-firemanic expenses were kept separate. We still follow that system and take great exception to the statement that your only cutting non-firemanic items from our budget this is impossible due to the fact that these items are not there. Items such as uniforms, soda, our annual banquet and all items not directly associated with the operation of the fire company are paid directly from our non-firemanic account system which receives its funds from the foreign insurance tax and our annual fund raising letter drive. We are very explicit in our appeal letter to our residents that their donations are used for this purpose. The usage of foreign insurance tax for firemanic purposes is strictly prohibited and monitored by the State. Your statement in the Post Star, that cuts are coming from non-firemanic items such as landscaping and professional services is ridiculous. The landscaping line item is our snow plowing of the firehouses and professional services is the ladder testing, physical's required by OSHA, and our audit which you require for us to provide to you in the contract. Also in this same article you point to the drastic change in 1988, 1989, what you don't say is the dramatic increase in response activity in that time frame. We've increased over forty percent just in the last two years. The last time, I will address in your press information is the statement that and I quote, "we've been telling them this for a year and this is not a surprise and if the public doesn't like what we're doing they'll throw us out." "But for years people have been calling for elected officials to do the job and that needs to be done with the budgets," another quote. These statements raise some very good questions. In going back through all Town Board minutes relative to the budgets since 1988 no one has spoken against the emergency services budgets. I have those minutes and a summary if you like to see everyone of those and how it went down. As for your statement, if we don't like it we can throw you out sounds very much like the attitude you expounded on from some of you to get elected. The issues are very basic and must be addressed before we can proceed. These issues included, who was the expert here when it comes to what is needed and what is not. By your own admission you are not experts in the fire field yet you feel confident having your secretary call the Department of Labor and get an opinion on what safety equipment we should have. Your attitude that it is not necessary to deal with regulations that concern all fire companies in this country is just unbelievable. In case you didn't notice volunteer fireman die. I was at the bottom of the ladder this August when the rescue crew looking for fire fighter McMurray came scrambling out. The look of despair in their eyes through their mask will haunt me for the rest of my life. If you think, I will jeopardize safety for your rendition of economics your very dissolution. Since the beginning of the year you have treated us as criminals the enemy when in reality we're on the same team here to provide a service to the residents of Queensbury. I personally have tried to assist with this project, but was met with your constant mode of hiding behind executive sessions and continuous violations of the open meetings law. It is unfortunate, but your micro-management method of management is also rapid in the rest of the Town Hall. Doesn't it bother you that the moral of this building is at its lowest ever. Weare at a serious crossroads in this Town. Your desire to be fiscally conservative is to be applauded, but you've become so engross in slashing these budgets you now miss the very basics. We work for you and you work for us. We would be most conducive to reopening talks on a non-confrontational vain perhaps with a mediator to work out a solution. We have offered our hand to you and now you must decide which path to take. If I could have the Board's cooperation, I have one letter that I like to read from another member of our organization who is not able to be here tonight and then I'll get out of your face. Dear Board Members: When people dial 911 they don't expect if we can handle the emergency that exist they expect someone to respond because the situation is beyond their means. Currently Queensbury Emergency Services has been ready to overcome many different types of emergencies which they have been called too. Through proper funding and dedication of well trained volunteers the Town of Queensbury has enjoyed a well prepared group of organizations ready to handle any type of emergency which demands their immediate response. Even with this in mind we should not forget that as technology changes we are faced with new challenges which place a greater strain on emergency services. As first Assistant Chief of Queensbury Central and a New York State Fire Instructor, I can attest to the fact that emergency services are faced with new challenges everyday which demand proper equipment, proper training and a need to be proactive instead reactive. An effort to continue this proactive attitude and commitment to better serve our community, I ask you to reconsider your proposed 1995 appropriation for Queensbury Central Volunteer Fire Company. Queensbury Central's a business just like any other business in this community and has to be run like a business. In business to stay competitive you must define your objectives, set goals and analyze costs associated with your objectives and goals in order to stay competitive. However, in the business of emergency services our competition or objectives are the possibility of death, destruction of personal property and the fear of the unknown all of which are very difficult objectives to overcome. Our goal is very simple to stay even with technology and be ready for the unexpected. Your propose figure of $321,000 will allow Queensbury Central to maintain basic essential services to our community, but will not allow us to remain proactive and meet our objective and goals for 1995. I ask you to meet with our representatives for what I believe will be a reasonable compromise in order to allow you to accomplish your goals and us to accomplish ours. Thank you for your time and consideration. That is signed by Dave Hatin, First Assistant Chief. I realize that some of things that I have said in my presentation may offend you we also have felt that same offense on our side, I think the time is now. As you have stated in your original statement Fred to knock off the foolishness let's get back to the table and accomplish what needs to be done to provide for our residents what they need and that's emergency services in this Town. Thank you. MIKE PALMER-Again, before I read my prepared statement I do want to fill you in that the statement was prepared long before the message was read tonight by Fred. Fred we do also accept your offer and your thanks for the duty that we do perform. We do it with much pride and it's nice to know that the pride is reciprocated from the leaders of this Town. Good Evening, Supervisor Champagne, Board Members, my name is Michael Palmer and I'm a member of the West Glens Falls Volunteer Fire Company, I am representing the membership at this time. Our presence tonight is to voice our extreme displeasure with the contract proposal for 1995 and the method by which it was formulated. This company has just completed 47 years of continuous service for the Town of Queensbury has plans for 47 more. The hurdles that have been crossed in that time the countless motor vehicle accidents, dwelling fires, calls for assistance, lives saved, property loss all we're just bumps in the road. The many man hours spent on public service, on fund raisers, fire prevention and education none of these could slow the steady progression and growth of this department, not until now. We fully appreciate the reality of the nineties times are tough, money is tight. We must all tighten the purse strings and be more fiscally responsible. The proposal made by the West Glens Falls Volunteer Fire Company reflected a reduction from the 1994 funding level and demonstrates our willingness to accept fiscal responsibility. However, we still have a business to run, lives and property to protect, and a service to provide. There are costs associated with the delivery of this service an arbitrary non-negotiated level of funding is just not suitable. Further funding costs should come from all facets of Town spending not just the fire and EMS budgets. We urged you to reconsider the offer of $165,000 which is $115,000 decrease from the 1994 funding level and negotiate with us a figure acceptable to both parties and still reducing the funding level from the 1994 level. Negotiating does not mean increase spending, in fact in this case it means a controlled steady decrease and\or leveling of funding. We are very proud of the service that we deliver and the accomplishments associated with it. We also know that Supervisor Champagne and the Board members take great pride and professionalism of their fire and EMS providers. Let's get back to the table and do this right. After all this is not about you and us this is about the precious lives of our community and the property they have chosen to locate in the Town of Queensbury. Thank you for your time. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I think, I can make a statement here also that the budget adoption date, I guess is November 21. Consequently at the time when these numbers were put together, I think everyone at this table realized that there would be some future negotiations. So, I want all of you to be aware of that this was not cou-da-graw, but rather a means to get some things started and do some again closer analysis, I'm sure that will be happening. Anyone else care to speak? GILBERT BOEHM-As I see it there are eight different entities involved here. Three emergency and five fire companies. Are they represented on individual pages in this or they all lumped on one page? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Lumped. MR. BOEHM-I as an individual don't know what's happening. As the individual entities are requesting verses what your offering them. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- To answer your question that's correct. COUNCILMAN PULVER-You can come to the Town Hall and we can give you that information. MR. BOEHM-In the newspaper there has been some indication that presumably they've been reduced by $462,000 is that still true? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-There are two way oflooking at this. One way was that we took out the vehicle fund. We took $166,000 out that we agreed with the various companies that we would either hold that... . PUBLIC-No agreement. COUNCILMAN PUL VER- That didn't agree. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- They didn't agree. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Excuse me, we do not have an agreement on that used the wrong choice of words. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-We proposed. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-What we said we're proposing that. MR. BOEHM-I cannot take say, page 38 which says fire protection fund that represents all eight entities? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- Yes. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-You broke out the EMS didn't you? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I'm not sure I don't have a copy of mine in front of me. MR. BOEHM-It says fire protection fund. I couldn't find a separate emergency one. I cannot therefore, take $462,000 and add it to the propose to come up with what they presumably requested can I or can I? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Wednesday night we will all have the budgets... SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I'm not sure this is the night that we want to get into dollars because I don't have my copy with me. MR. BOEHM-I have extreme difficulty understanding what's going on then. COUNCILMAN PULVER-Wednesday night is our budget meeting. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Wednesday night will be the public hearing on the budget. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I think I know where Gip is coming from though. He is trying to find some basic information so he can think between now and Wednesday. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Call me tomorrow will you Gil, I'll have my copy with me. MR. BOEHM-Okay, sure. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Anyone else? TERRY BARTON-Captain Bay Ridge Rescue Squad also a resident of the Town of Queensbury. I will also applaud what I've heard coming from your side this evening. Personally, I think its given me a little uplift. Unlike my predecessors, I would like to appalled their remarks. I'll be brave and try to get away from my prepared remarks and make them a lot briefer. I think one of the things you've seen tonight looking around this room is what volunteers are all about caring obviously impassioned self-starters. We don't do what we do by way of vocation. We don't do what we do by way of paid political office. We do what we do by way of avocation. Often done at the expense of our relationships of those people we care about our sons, daughters, and friends. I hope this isn't necessary, but I've had the feeling as this process has gone on that there are some people that are of the opinion that there is political or personally gain here financially if it needs to be said it doesn't happen. Rather as...as possible we provide the best possible service equipment and training. If nothing else witness the growth to advance life support over the past several years. The buzz word certainly is accountability. In the beginning we said we welcome that again, we are also residents and taxpayers of the Town of Queensbury. This to me is not about dollars and cents it's about a process. Somewhere down the road it's going to be about dollars and cents, but the process is negotiation. Returning to accountability, accountability is a two way street. We treat our patients with dignity and respect these concepts also applied to this process. Beyond that there is a need for ferocity above board face to face communications we continue to offer that and expect the same. In the interim we will do what we do best and that is provide emergency medical services. I'd like to leave with you one closing thought. One of the ways that we judge ourselves is asked this question. If myself or somebody I cared about needed an ambulance or needed a fire department where would I want that to happen? I will tell you as I look around this room I would want to have it happen in the Town of Queensbury cause these folks will bust their backsides to get the job done until it's resolved. CHARLES T. MELLON, JR.-Chief of Bay Ridge Volunteer Fire Company and more importantly I'm also a resident of the Town and I have been for thirty years. I think as everyone's knows there has been a communication break down between the Town Board and the emergency services this year. I feel it is important to chronically detail specific items from this past year. This partially explains how we've got to where we are now. To begin with the Town Board was invited several times to visit our stations we offered to show our equipment and apparatus and hope to educate you in the services that we provide for the community and why we do what we do. Unfortunately you go only allocate one hour that was used for budgeting purposes. In addition Mrs. Monahan met with us in March for the same reason. On February 7th, Bay Ridge approached the Town Board to approve the purchase of a new rescue pumper. Nick stated that he would check with the other board members and get back to me about scheduling a meeting. Instead later the same day he sent me a memo stating that they couldn't possible meet with us for a month and a half. After explaining to him that the bid price would not be guaranteed for more than thirty days due to increase in material cost he offered to call the fire truck salesman. Nick told him that Bay Ridge has no right to even ascertain bids on the pumper until permission received by the Town Board, this was not true. Our contract with the Town requires that we have approval from the Town prior to the purchase. In addition, I presented a letter that was required by the Town Board the second which is probably twenty pages long why we needed the apparatus. One particular item that was discussed was the ISO rating. During the presentation it was mentioned that the ISO requirements in our fire district mandate a particular gallon per minute flow in each district. One board member was concerned that the possible decreased insurance rates might not offset the actual cost of this apparatus. After numerous delays by the board the purchase was finally approved at the April board meeting thanks in part to the perseverance of Doc Wiswall. During that same meeting the board failed to official hiring a consultant who was to evaluate the needs of the Town emergency services. The potential candidate withdrew his proposal after much sometimes heated discussion. A local paper reported April 29th that two board members had actually met with this person the previous week. Some board members also visited the Warren County Fire Coordinator for statistical information run totals, apparatus inventories, etc. Unfortunately some board members also chose to take those run stats and emphasize the few number of calls in one category. They were actually distorting the figures because they did not understand the State reporting perimeters even after it was explained to them at an April board meeting by our Assistant Chief David Strainer. In February a letter was sent by Nick detailing the formation of an Emergency Services Advisory Committee. The purpose was to bring some assemblage of control to what has become the largest part of our Town budget the quote said in the paper and in the memo. This insinuated the spending by the emergency services was out of control. On March 15th after attending a meeting of the general public and emergency services at the Town Hall this idea was again put on hold when a majority of those in attendance did not agree with the propose format. A propose format was to be distributed to all eight emergency service unfortunately future meetings have still not be scheduled and we are still waiting for an updated version of this legislation. In March a new article appeared in some of the papers that implied that there was quote "an unnecessary duplication of equipment in the Town". What were the qualifications of this board member to make this statement? Once again in March the newspaper article appeared that criticized the construction of a new fire station. Even though the Town Board approved of construction one board member who had voted for it instead chose to take a neutral stance when questioned about his opinion of the building. In September more press coverage denouncing the use of emergency warning sirens was publicized. The board stated that the use of sirens will be a subject of negotiations this year, to date we have heard nothing about this. October 28th, emergency services were notified of their allocated contractual amount less the apparatus fund. The use of truck was addressed at one of first joint meetings with the emergency services and the Town Board in either February or March. They were told that they cannot hold these funds or use them for anything except for emergency services by State Law. Also some of the amounts to be reduced included allowances for uniforms because they were part of non-firemanic items. Anyone who attended the funeral in Hudson Falls for one of our fallen fire fighters can truly attest to the fact that these are a needed item, I won't say anymore about that. The article in the October 29th edition implied once again that spending has drastically increased since the Borgos years they neglected to tell you all why that is. October 31st, correction Town Board Meeting proposed a 12 percent raise with the budget. Surprisingly an emergency meeting was held to cut these raises. If times are so tough here how could the idea of any raise let alone a 12 percent hike even be contemplated. Today's emergency services have changed dramatically in the past years, Bay Ridge fire calls have increased 45 percent. In addition the fire service has undergone numerous mandates by the State including, but not limited too OSHA physical's, personal fit testing of SCP A, hepatitis B vaccinations, blood born pathage in education, use of standard operating procedures, fire fighter accountability and overall fire fighter safety. It is important to keep public safety as the top priority if there are to be cuts they should be negotiated in good faith by both the fire and EMS companies and the Town Board. They should not first be played out in the local papers with one side of the story. Each company should negotiate their own budget figure. As far as the five fire companies should be talking in one room together concerning contractual agreements. There shouldn't be anymore playing one of us against the other which happened in our department several times. I think it's just important to give you a little incite of the other non-firemanic, actually some of these are firemanic details that Bay Ridge provides. Every year since 1965 Bay Ridge has provided fire prevention programs for elementary school children in Lake George and Queensbury Schools. Approximately 600 children tour the Bay Ridge Stations yearly. We assist the Fire Marshal with fire prevention programs at the Aviation Mall including the Queensbury Fire Friends Puppets and live demonstrations. We co-sponsor Boy Scout Troop 13 with Harrisena Church which is one of the most active in the Tri-County area. We provide meeting and polling places for the Town of Queensbury, meeting place for the Glen Lake Association, sponsor car washes for Harrisena Church Youth Group and numerous other community organizations. We provide quality fire and rescue capabilities for our community which helps to insure the quality of life in an ever changing environment in what can truly be called America's most dangerous profession. Thank you. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Anyone else care to speak? GLEN GREGORY-I don't have a prepared statement, but I've got a little story I would like to tell. I've been in the company 34 1/2 years, 30 years on the Committee for Budget. I've seen it come from $8,000 a year to $280,000 what it was last year. In the meantime 30 years ago we owned two trucks. One homemade, eight pieces of fire gear. That went on for a number of years until we finally got a few more bucks out of the Town to buy more fire gear. To attest as a danger and a hazard of volunteer fireism. In 1977, Memorial Day, I had last rights when I responded to a car fire 19 weeks later I was out of the hospital a year later I was back in service again fighting fire. I instigated complete fire gear for every man in our company. I think every man in every company in the Town of Queensbury should have the best most update protective gear and apparatus people can afford to buy. I think through the years we've all proven we've done what we can do to manage our money. In fact this year our proposal was way below last year's budget and you people turn around and cut us again. I don't think it's fair to the people of the Town of Queensbury, fair to the fire and ambulance services. We're there to help protect your lives and the property of the Town and to do this we need proper protection and the best apparatus money can buy because this is the most hazardous occupation in the country this is a proven statement. Thank you. CONNIE GOEDERT-I just have a couple questions that when you gave your presentation. In our last meeting with the Town Board and Doc wasn't present and Carol wasn't present we stated to you that we were looking into billing people that we treated that lived outside of the Queensbury residence. At that time your response to us was that, no you didn't think that we were ready to look into this. In your presentation tonight you made a statement that you were looking into a paid service. My question to you is what's the difference on who gets paid? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-What I said was that the board has been looking into and will continue to look into the possibility of a third party payer. Which means the insurance company, I guess will be picking up the cost of the ambulance. MS. GOEDERT-Which is the same thing that we were saying to you, but you said the Town wasn't ready for that. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Is that what we said? To be honest with you, I don't remember saying that because this is something that has been ongoing for sometime. We have done some research at Colonie where I'm sure some of you realize that they've moved in that direction. So we have been looking at it and if anyone of us said or if I said it, it was in error. COUNCILMAN PULVER-I'm looking at this, I think, I don't know just tell me this. But, your talking a paid service verses a volunteer service? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-That's not what I'm saying. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Connie your talking about reimbursement through a third party? MS. GOEDERT -I'm talking about us billing the insurance company for non-Queensbury residents for ambulance service. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Right. MS. GOEDERT-Which is the same thing a third party service would do. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Exactly. MS. GOEDERT-You stated to us that the Town was not ready for something like that. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Connie, I don't remember saying that, but if I said it I was in error. I said it personally myself? MS. GOEDERT-Yes. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I stand to be corrected. MS. GOEDERT-So then we can go ahead and looked into this? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Absolutely. You can do it, we can do it, we'll all do it. Excuse me though, not just non-Queensbury residents, but it could happen to Queensbury residents. MS. GOEDERT -Our figures show that a Queensbury resident is cheaper to use us than it is to bill the insurance per ambulance run. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Okay, go ahead. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- That's where this thing got screwed up. MS. GOEDERT-Yes, your right Nick it's two different issues. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It's two different issues and I think we got confused. MS. GOEDERT-My other question is to Mr. Dusek. We we're told that you were looking into the Town holding apparatus funds on whether or not that was legal of them or if they were able to do that? ATTORNEY DUSEK-I rendered an opinion a short time ago that the Town is not allowed to hold vehicle funds, you know set up a vehicle account. The comptroller's office has come out with an opinion one of the ways you could do it is by having a strict vehicle account within the fire company or rescue squad under contract and restrict it under contract. But, there is no authority to hold a vehicle fund by the Town for just a vehicle fund. UNKNOWN-That clause is already in our contracts it has been for five years. MS. GOEDERT -Am I understanding this correctly so therefore our apparatus funds will be turned over to us or is the Town still looking into some way of bucket funding them? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-We will continue to look into it. There maybe some other alternatives to support that funding to the Town. It may be a reserve fund it may be a capital project fund we don't know yet. All we're asking your side is to allow us to further investigate it. I don't believe that decision is final at this point. MS. GOEDERT-The budget questions that I have I'll leave until Wednesday night. But, just a little note in one of our other meetings Mr. Caimano you quoted to me the increase in our budget since 1987, I think you quoted that it was" 44 percent". I have a familiar bill here that we have in our household from what we were billed in 1987 to what we were billed in 1994. It shows a 47 percent increase and I only made four copies cause I want to cut down on our office supplies. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Connie, I guess it's useless to tell you I'm in advertising not circulation? MS. GOEDERT-Same pocketbook. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- Thank you. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-With that anyone else? C. POWELL SOUTH-My name is C. Powell South. I reside at 29 Park View Avenue, Town of Queensbury. I have lived there all my life since I have been married for 47 years. When I became a member of Queensbury Central George Wiswall was 44 years younger, and George was a member of our fire company. Over the years I've worked very hard to make Queensbury a better place to live. When I think of that I also say, I helped make this community what it is today. I used to negotiate with the Town Board many of times but, I'm getting a little old for that and the younger generation should be doing it and they have been doing it. For the last four or five months I've heard reports at our company meetings where Fred said that we had to give back $10,000 then it was changed to 10 percent. When I picked up a week ago Saturday's paper, Fire Rescue Budgets Targeted, I became livid. Before I go any further I would like to thank the Town Board for rescinding fees for political signs. For you see I am the gentlemen with the signs on Park View Avenue. It took me quite a while to figure out what I wanted to do. I called our Treasurer. I said John what's been going on with the negotiations, he filled me in. I called our Chief. What's been going on with the negotiations, he filled me in. The more I read this article in the paper the more livid I became and thus I decided I would make a statement so I put up a few signs. One of them said, send them down the road from Nick's quote. Another one said, 10 percent Champagne from the 10 percent cut. Another said, I'd understand Pulver because its been reported that many times she says, I don't follow this I can't understand this. Then I put up another that said, jeopardizing Queensbury's fire protection and rescue services. I put up another sign that said, 27 percent Caimano because when I run it through the calculator with the percentage listed here that's what I come up to. I put up another sign that said, support not short change your local fire companies and rescue services. I had three or four close accidents over there with people stopping to read them including Councilman Wiswall with his Mercedes. COUNCILMAN WISW ALL-Paul Naylor. MR. SOUTH-A couple others, Paul Naylor. P AUL NAYLOR, HIGHWAY SUPERINTENDENT -I was riding with Doc. MR. SOUTH-I have received feedback from people that have stopped and looked at them signs that average somewhere between 8 to 9 to 1 in favor of the fire service. My signs took a big beating this weekend in the wind and rain and one of them I lost. That was the one that said, let's send them down the road. I said to my wife, I've got to find that. So today I ventured forth to Paper Cutter and bought a beautiful fuchsia pink show card. I penned on it, tell them negotiate not dictate. Gentlemen, I have changed my signs to say negotiate not dictate and I hope that this Town Board will set and realized the value that the fire services represent to the taxpayers of the Town of Queensbury. Thank you. COUNCILMAN WISW ALL-I want to thank Powell for not putting up a sign for danming me. Paul Naylor and I went out there it was a dark rainy morning we pretty near got run into. I finally went back the next day took my camera early in the morning and took pictures of those signs because I was afraid it was going to rain and they were going to get washed away. We should have something permanent to look at in the way of signs, but I haven't developed them yet Powell. Powell was there in his undershirt just got up having breakfast, I guess and came out we've been friends for many many years. He didn't resent me for taking his picture, but he wanted to know what I was going to do with them. They are still in the camera Powell, but I will have them developed for you so you can remember. MR. SOUTH - I just don't want all the young girls seeing the white hair on my chest. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Okay, moving right along, John? COUNCILMAN WISW ALL-What fire company do you belong too? JOHN SALVADOR-All of them. Fred I'm the subject of third party payment. What is there in the law right now that would prevent any of these eight companies charging for response for their services. MS. GOEDERT-Our contracts. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I defer that to the Attorney at large over there. I can only speak for the EMS service. That, I know for a fact we certainly can charge for that, the fire I have no idea. ATTORNEY DUSEK-I can't comment on that either we haven't had a chance to take a look at that aspect. MR. SALVADOR-Why would the Town want to prohibit them from charging if this is a way that they can meet what they feel is their budget? They need so much money to operate. Your only willing to grant so much that you think their services are worth. They can make up the difference with third party payment. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I don't know John there is not an answer to that really. MR. SAL V ADOR-I think someone should look into that. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-We will. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-We'll look at it. MR. SALVADOR - I understand in some communities out west the full cost of the response for taking care of a house fire is paid by the homeowners insurance. The fire company is a 100 percent private undertaking they charge for their services. Brian brought to our attention the fact that there is a difference between a fire department and a fire company. I can't help but feel that many times we listen here to all the problems we have and we're trying to stuff the square peg of a fire department into the round hole of a fire company and it doesn't fit. I really think maybe the Town should consider moving, I think you would like to you'd like to operate as though it is a fire department and yet they are fire companies they are independent operating companies. This seems to be an enormous conflict. I think everyone would be well served if the Town could move in a direction to where it was a fire department staffed by volunteers, I think everything would work out a little bit better. They do this in other communities we wouldn't be the first one to do this. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you. Anyone else care to speak? BRUCE LEVIN-I'm probably the only guy here that's not related to the fire department in anyway shape or form. The reason I came tonight, I guess I read the Post Star also, saw the ad that the fireman put in the paper. I came a couple of years ago to a Town Board Meeting, I must admit I'm not a regular participant. At that point it had to do with the public library and I feel strongly about the public library. I started to think about the fire services and one of the things that I know myself anyhow is this is certainly a good place to live, it's a great place to live, I think we'd all agree. One of the reason that it's a great place to live is because of these men and ladies that provide the fire service for us. Gosh, I know I sleep a lot safer at night knowing that they do respond and they respond quickly. My neighbor across the street a couple of weeks ago had an incident in their own home and there was a truck there it seemed like seconds faster than it took me to run out of the house after they had called. I guess from a private individual who is certainly interested in fiscal restraint and I think your doing a good job at that and I know you have awfully difficult decision to make. I heard the first part of the meeting, gosh I'm glad I'm not sitting up there tonight that's something that I certainly wouldn't want to have to decide. I would certainly encourage you and I guess from what I'm hearing here tonight for both sides to sit down obviously and come up with a plan to work for the residents of the Town, you, I, and the fire people. But, I think it's important you keep in mind that without these guys it would be awfully sleepless nights for most of us. We have a major investment out there to protect and they do a great job doing that for us. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you. RUSS CHADMAN-44 Maple Drive, Queensbury. Unlike a lot of the people behind me I'm a newcomer to the community. About five years ago I picked up my roots where I lived all my life and brought my children and wife here. It wasn't a decision that was made lightly we had been coming to this area for about 25 years. It's an area we chose because we liked what we saw and I'd like to see it stay that way. I'd like to see the Town be able to negotiate with the fire service and the emergency services in a vain that these are your neighbors. The service that is being provided is being provided by your neighbors. In the past I've been involved with negotiations and it's usually been with people that have wanted and demanded things couldn't give to those people. But, I think in this case a lot of those things have not been negotiated. I think these people do a good job. Until I moved here I had very little to do with fire departments as far as being a volunteer myself. My membership for the last two years I've learned a lot and I've seen these people donate a lot of time and a lot of their lives to these organizations. I just hope that they will be treated with the dignity and respect that they deserve. Actually, I'm somewhat bias because I'm a member of Queensbury Central. But, as a citizen of the Town of Queensbury I respect the job that you folks do up there cause I too pay taxes. But, I also know from the inside what these folks do and I'm pretty proud to be associated with them. Thank you. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Do we have anyone else that cares to speak? Thank you very much. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I think maybe Fred before these ladies and gentlemen leave. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It's to late. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I've already stated my position to many of you. My feeling is that we have two figures. We've got the fire companies, EMS, we've got the Town Board. We're probably now in a situation to see where we can bring these figures together and achieve a good product. PUBLIC-Betty turn your microphone on nobody can hear you. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It is suppose to be on. Can you hear me? I have said this to some of you individually and now I will say it now so you know as I as one Town Board member feel, okay. I feel that you people have come in with a figure in some cases it's high, some cases that's why you'll see different fire companies we had different results, different EMS squads. I think the Town went down to more less rock bottom. I think we're now in a position to sit down and try and bring these figures together in some kind of a appropriate ground. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-We are going to take another couple of minutes while we catch our breath and regroup. COUNCILMAN PULVER-There's a couple of things I want to say. A couple of things tonight with the emergency services here and I think we all heard a lot and we have to remember and the public has to remember and I think this, we have everyone left that wasn't involved with the emergency services is that what you heard was the way they saw it. Not the way we saw it at the time we were going through negotiations. Speaking for myself tonight, one thing I quote here's a quote from Dave Hatin's letter from Queensbury Central, he says in the quote they will be able to maintain basic emergency service with this budget. That was one thing I took out of there. Second, I am a taxpayer and not only a Town Board representative but a Mother. I have two children living in this town, I would never do anything to jeopardize emergency services for my children. I don't believe that the budgets that the Town Board has come through is going to create any hardship on these fire or EMS services. However, the name of the game is negotiations. You know, I know that as a politician, you have to negotiate. The other thing was, I was pleased to see them all come in here tonight but I really think we have to get the emotionalism out of this andjust get down, get real down to business, to brass tacks. That's it, that's really all I have to say except that when we did these budgets we started at zero and worked up and said, what is their debt? We're going to pay that off. What are their fixed expenses? We're going to pay that. What do they absolutely have to have as far as equipment? And we're going to pay that and that's how a lot of these sums were arrived at. We didn't just take an ax and start wielding at every number as they may make you think. So, that's all. Wednesday night, I hope you all come back because I imaging we're going to have another show. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-And Carol, I think you can add that it was not done by any kind of percentages. It was looking at their actual details that they put in their budget. COUNCILMAN PULVER-It wasn't and we met with them on two occasions, we gave them ample opportunities to justify every number that they gave us. We did not compare one against the other, they are all different. They all have different debt structure, they all have different locations, buildings, different needs. Who needs a pumper? Who needs a, you know, who needs to drag their water? Whose got hydrants, whose this, whose that? So, everything was looked at an individual basis and you know, I believe what we came up with was fair and generous at the time that we came up with it. But, we'll see how it all comes out in the wash. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I thought it was interesting. It was fun listening, I hope we have another listening session on Wednesday. but Carol is right, you only heard one side and it was no sense getting into a smashing contest. Your comments were well taken. But, we feel the same way. When I moved here sixteen years ago, I thought we had great fire service. I don't think the fire protection I have today is any better, that doesn't mean it's bad, it isn't any better today then it was when I moved here sixteen years ago. But, I'm paying a whole lot more for it and that's all we're looking at, is numbers, trying to take the emotionalism out of it. You're welcome to look at all the numbers but suffice it to say that from my point of view as an accountant or at least an accountant trained person, there's one of those companies that's out of business. They are literally out of business only they don't know enough to roll over. They borrow money to pay off borrowed money. That's, that's crazy. It's crazy. COUNCILMAN PULVER-Meet me after John, I'll tell you. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-They're out of business but they don't want to face it. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Fred, I think it would be good if that page of the budget that the public is getting had the EMS contracts and fire contracts.... COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Separate. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-They push too much stuff in together on that page. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I agree with that. COUNCILMAN PULVER-Well, you know what, I think maybe you would just like more copies of this to be around. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I think so too. COUNCILMAN PULVER-This is, this is a very good SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Let it go just like that. I mean, it's very clear, spelled out. Gil, that's exactly what you're looking for right there. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Make a couple of hundred copies of those. COUNCILMAN PULVER-And I mean, the budget cuts that we're quoted in the paper and Gil, I think I said this to you, that everyone of the companies had requested truck fund money. This is money that they put into savings and this money is still in a line item we have on here called truck fund. So, although we were not giving it to them because they have shown us, several companies, that they can mismanage their truck fund money. They have spent it on other things. In their contract it says they can't do that but they have done it. We've decided as a Board that it would be better for us, for the Town to hold onto it. Not only, because they've mismanaged it but also because in the event these companies should go out of business for whatever reason, this money that they hold in these savings is their money. They can do whatever they want with it. The Town, it will never come back to the Town again. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Yes, it is. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-they can't do whatever they want, there's COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Yes, they can. COUNCILMAN PULVER-What has to go for debt, we will not get it back. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I beg your pardon, there's an IRS, they can give it to other nonprofit's. They can't, they're restricted but it will not COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- They don't have to give it back to us. COUNCILMAN PULVER-We will not, the taxpayer will not get it back. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, it is not, we don't have any claim on it. COUNCILMAN PULVER-Right, the taxpayer will not get it back. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well, any money they've banked, it can go where they want it, as long as it's nonprofit or municipal or federal. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-They are good squirrels by the way. They, a couple of the companies do very well at saving money and hording money and God bless them for doing that. But now they've got to use it wisely, that's all. ATTORNEY DUSEK-I feel compelled just to make sure the record is straight ont he issue of the funds. Should a fire company go out of business, it would be subject to a dissolution proceeding which in turn is subject to court order plus consent from the Town as to where the dissolution of funds go and the Attorney General's Office would also be involved. So, it's not the fire company that directs the funds, it's actually the court that directs the funds. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-But the chance of it coming back to the taxpayer is not... ATTORNEY DUSEK-It would have to go to another fire company and chances are that it would go to a fire company or some institution in Queensbury. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- The point is we don't want to get involved in the technicality of it. The point is that we're not thinking only in one direction we're trying to think of the financial end of it. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But, we have no guarantee that it would come back in the control of the Town. JOHN SALVADOR-Spoke to the Board noting his interest of the Town moving towards a Town Fire Department. Spoke to the Board concerning the Repeal of the New York State Raffle Regulations, noting believes the legislature did this to relieve these volunteer organizations of getting into the sales tax business. Questioned the status of the stormwater planning regarding the Park Commission Grant? EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MR. MARTIN-Has me with Mike White has gone over the task involved in doing the plan as they would like to have it done under the funding. Mr. White has mailed a written item by item description of each task involved and the group who should perform that task. Has forwarded the list on to the Board, noting the next step would be to have another meeting with Board Members and the Park Commission. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Questioned if the Town has received the grant? EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MR. MARTIN-Yes, haven't received money but has been earmarked for the Town. MR. SALVADOR-The Park Commission has talked about going into the business of redoing their wastewater regulations. They would like to have new wastewater regulations in place by the Spring of next year, noting the Town should get involved with this. MR. BOEHM-Noted when he listens to the fire companies and rescue squads has the feeling that there are eight individual...... Noted he feels there are possibilities for overlap or savings as a result of the fact that one could cover another area as well. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- They have areas by law. MR. BOEHM-They are responsible for equipment in the area. A piece of gear in the adjacent area could cover that if it was one large fire company. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Noted that is something that the Town is looking at to see how this can be achieved. MR. BOEHM-Encouraged the Board to keep going in the direction they are going. (Ending portion of Minutes of November 7, 1994) MR. BORGOS-In the mid-eighties this town went through a period of explosive growth. We added somewhere in the range of twenty-six hundred homes in the mid-eighties. We needed then expanded facilities and those of us on the Town Board, in my case starting in 1986 recognized those problems, we were under tremendous pressure. We have a big growth spurt going on this year and in current dollars that's in the thirty million dollar range. In those years we had sixty million dollars a year of growth at the old numbers which would probably be equal to close to eighty million dollars today. We also simultaneously had a dramatic reduction in the number of volunteers in our emergency services due to the pressures of the times, the pressures of society. Two, one income families. Rapid inflation. We had a serious problem. We had to do something about it. Several emergency services here tonight had major problems and almost were unable to continue. We had a crisis of the town and we needed solutions. We quietly took care of the major immediate issues through diplomatic negotiations. They never made the paper. Then we addressed the full scope of the issue. In 1988 we completed a detailed analysis of the emergency service organizations of this town, specifically the fire service in attempt to create a formula for contract purposes. We looked at number of buildings, we looked at the occupancies, we looked at the fire loads, we looked at the total populations, the dispersion of the population, the highway systems, the water supply systems, the mountains, the valleys, the gullies, the lakes, the streams, the, rivers, everything to try to come up with analysis of how we can properly fund the organizations. We did two reports at that time. One was done in house through the cooperation of all the emergency services and the other the Town Board decided would be done by an outside person. An outside person highly respected in the State of New York and probably with the greatest respect and I had hoped he would be here, be able to be reached this weekend or this week so he could come and talk but he died a few days ago so he can't be here. George Proper is recognized State wide and probably Nationally as one of the experts. We paid him the huge sum of $3,000. to come and spend a week of his time here to analyze all these things. When he came to town I said, "George, let me spend a couple of hours with you, give you some idea what our problems are and what we see as potential solutions". And George said I'm going to tell you once, shut your mouth, you hired me, I'm the professional, I'm going to do, I'll let you know when the report is done. So okay, George, you do it. The Proper report is on file with the town, the other report coordinated by Eleanor Oudekerk is on file here in the town. All the records are there. We looked at a cost benefit analysis in these reports. We studied ISO regulations, OSHA regulations and FP A guidelines and carefully concluded that relatively few options were available to us to provide an acceptable level of service to this growing community. We watched the Town of Colonie spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to advertise for volunteers, they did that at that time. We took another approach. We recognized the efforts of the hundreds of dedicated volunteers in this community and decided that our best approach was to take the funding and fund raising burden off the backs of these dedicated men and women, we decided after many public discussions and extensive press coverage to demonstrate our concern for public health and safety. We dramatically increased funding to provide for modern buildings and modern equipment. The buildings, all but one, were constructed in the 1940's. They had to be replaced and or updated. In the 40's, just to remind you we didn't have the buildings were in now, we didn't have the mall, we didn't have A.C.c., we didn't have approximately thirty thousand residents, we didn't have the Northway, we didn't have approximately one thousand separate businesses in the Town of Queensbury. We had a different community. The time for dramatic action was here and we took the action and the public approved. Membership increased. Pride and I've got it underlined here, big word, increased and we were on our way. We improved EMS services from BLS to ALS, that's from basic life support to advanced life support and the public approved. In fact, through formal referendums, actual public vote, the residents of this great town gave overwhelming approval to a further increase in the cost of fire protection. They demonstrated respect for the outstanding services of our volunteers. I ask you, where is the problem now? Who and how many are complaining? In the past six years, two people have questioned but no one has objected to the fire services, EMS budget at any public hearings. That includes the budget hearings, that includes the contract hearings that are required by law for each contract. Where is the problem? Why have you proposed to cut the budgets? Have you done your homework to determine what's needed? Who are your experts to identify where the budgets should be cut? We did our homework before. We reached a sound conclusion. The public has supported our conclusion. Are all of you ready to testify in court after an incident, that your budget provided for protection that was the best that this town could afford? That you covered every conceivable, reasonable, anticipated problem and took care of it? I request that you accept the budget proposed for all eight agencies for 1995. Then in January of this coming year, take time to professionally update the studies and plan for the future. I thank you. SUPERVISOR CHAMP AGNE- Thank you, Steve. And next. Anyone else? Yes, sir. MR. CHUCK DEMARS-My name is Chuck DeMars and I live on Big Boom Road in the Town of Queensbury. I never did like following a professor because I could never equal to what he just said. I have a few questions on the budget and I really feel, Fred, I hopefully feel that I don't get you into a confrontational mode. I analyzed the whole Board Monday night, I watched the whole Board before I open my big mouth tonight and now I'm opening my mouth. I feel that the confrontation is more about the fire and protection of this particular town versus any other expenditures within this budget. My problem is that we have a budget and it's a recreational budget that's a three quarter of a million dollar budget. Five hundred thousand to six hundred thousand dollar budget, recreation. I could stand corrected on this. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Well, I think you will. MR. DEMARS-This bothers me. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-You might be high, Chuck. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- Y ou may be a little high. COUNCILMAN PULVER-It's a pretty hefty budget. MR. DEMARS-Because we're on the outskirts of a beautiful park called the Adirondacks and I would rather use that versus using that money. I'd rather spend it on the other services. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I get $401,545., that's between recreation and parks, two different departments. MR. DEMARS-If you look at that as a consolidated thing, this is recreation for the Town of Queensbury. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I don't deny one single bit. MR. DEMARS-Twenty-three thousand individual people. We have beautiful school recreational facilities that we can use. We have shared facilities with the City of Glens Falls that we can use. That particular budget scares me. That one, I really don't agree on and I wish that if you focused in on a budget that you wanted to take and cut back, I think that, that one should certainly use some of that cutting. The next thing I've got to ask, I guess is on the proposed budget major increases and I guess I would ask one of the, is it Kate that's the accountant over here? MRS. DUBOIS-Mike is the accountant, I work in the accounting office for the Town. Mike is the CPA. MR. DEMARS-Well, you're paid by the taxpayers though, right? MRS. DUBOIS-Yes, I am. MR. DEMARS-Okay, that's who I would want to ask. I would want to ask to ask you what the accounting equation is MRS. DUBOIS-For what? MR. DEMARS-And the accounting equation, assets equal liabilities, can you continue MRS. DUBOIS-Yes, assets equal liabilities and fund balance in the case of the Town of Queensbury because there are, the owners are the taxpayers, so it's called fund balance. MR. DEMARS-Okay, the real big thing that I want to stress is assets. Behind me, which I hate to put my back to them, are alot of assets to this town. It's volunteers. If we would like on that side of the budget, I think if we looked at these volunteers, I'm very thankful that we have these volunteers, matter of fact, we've used these volunteers for a particular need, our own personal need. I think if we looked on that side of the equation and really give it some thought, I think with all sincerity, we would not argue with these minute little budgets which they've prepared to exist for another year. I know it's the nineties, Fred you made that statement. The fast eighties are passed, now we're into the lean nineties. All the CEO's of every corporation in this particular area has looked at that. They are looking at the nineties and what are they doing? They're looking at the bottom line of a financial statement which states profit. I hope we're not looking that way when we're looking at these volunteers and they're moving out because they're not making profit here. They're not complaining about the services, they're just moving. The enticement to move overseas, the enticement to move away from us, is great. The next question would be, I guess would be, what is the total town employees? I couldn't get that from the budget. MRS. DUBOIS-A hundred and thirty, approximately. There are part time employees in the Summer so it Jumps up. MR. DEMARS-Well, I know that recreation department and that's where I have a problem with but the total town employees which we pay yearly benefits for? MRS. DUBOIS-Approximately one hundred and thirty. I do not have the exact number, it might be a hundred and thirty-two or a hundred and thirty-three. MR. DEMARS-Okay, so a hundred and thirty. What is our total cost to have a hundred and thirty full time employees to the town? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Payroll? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Payroll? MR. DEMARS-I know you say it costs us a million dollars to function on a day to day basis. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But that's more then payroll. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- To function as a town, that does everything? It's costing us a million dollars but what portion COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-No, no, no. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well, not, no, excuse me, not a million dollars a day to function. What I said is, we have to have available a million dollars for cash flow. It doesn't mean it's costing us a million dollars a day to function, there's a difference. MR. DEMARS-I have a cash flow problem as a small independent business man. I really have a cash flow problem with that and everybody I think is having that cash flow problem. I'm not here to complain about that expenditures as far as the taxes are concerned especially when they go for these particular good services that we're getting. I think if you took the value of a dollar today, it's thirty cents, we're lucky, if our buying power is thirty cents on a dollar. I think we're actually buying these services cheap and I hate to make that statement in front of them because they're all volunteers. My second question would be or third question would be, if it's a hundred and thirty total employees, what is the total of the volunteers for the town's fire as well as the rescue squads? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-They would have to give you that answer. MR. LAFL URE- Three eighteen. MR. DEMARS-Three eighteen? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Yea, I think that's MR. DEMARS-These are all volunteers? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Right. MR. LAFL URE- Volunteer employees. MR. DEMARS-Then I guess, I would ask, was tonight's meeting, was it advertised in the Post Star or one of the local papers? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Yes. MR. DEMARS-It was, in today's paper? I didn't find it in today's paper, that's the reason I was asking. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-What's the legal notification, Darleen? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Ten days ago? TOWN CLERK DOUGHER-Yea, ten days ago. MR. DEMARS-Was it ten days ago? TOWN CLERK DOUGHER-The legal ad. MR. DEMARS-So, in other words, you didn't have to re-advertise from Monday until Wednesday which is today for this particular meeting. TOWN CLERK DOUGHER-You only need one legal ad. MR. DEMARS-One legal ad? TOWN CLERK DOUGHER-That's correct. MR. DEMARS-Covers it all? TOWN CLERK DOUGHER-Covers it all. MR. DEMARS-It will cover it all the way up to the November 21st? TOWN CLERK DOUGHER-That's correct. MR. DEMARS-Okay. The other thing that I would like to bring up is the division of cost. I think the division of cost as far as the, it reflects, would be on your emergency services budget summary sheet. We didn't have this Monday night but this is a great consolidation thing. This gives us a more physical reflection on how my end of the town is being raped and I see it on paper, it's in black and white and we haven't got to hire a $39,000. personal director to see this because it's in black and white. I see what's happening. You're denying the West Glens Falls Fire Department, thirty-one percent of their monies asked. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-No, that's not what that says. MR. DEMARS-Maybe I'm reading it wrong, if you could just read that for me. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-A difference of thirty-one percent. Not denying them thirty-one percent. MR. DEMARS-Okay, so what we've COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It's just a difference of thirty-one percent. MR. DEMARS-What we've gotten into is a difference of those two totals, is a negotiable difference? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- That's correct. MR. DEMARS-Between 94 and 95 proposed? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- That's correct. MR. DEMARS-Okay. Hopefully, we won't lose it because that's COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Mr. DeMars, I think one thing you're looking at with West Glens Falls and God Bless them that they don't have any debt service. They're probably the only fire company that doesn't have a debt service. MR. DEMARS-I would say that that's a commendable thing. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It is very commendable. MR. DEMARS-It's very commendable. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But in the others, there is a debt where they're paying for the buildings built Ill. MR. DEMARS-I would say that they're working hard. I can remember when they used to stand out in the roads and get collections, make collections off of that and everything. We've come a long ways from that particular point. I think that, if they are doing good, it's commendable. I didn't hear that tonight but I would say, only you have brought that up. I think that's a very commendable thing. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Absolutely, absolutely. MR. DEMARS-My question is, per ward, as we exist today, do we have five wards or four wards? I don't know. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-You've got four wards. MR. DEMARS-I know there's talk that we might divide the fourth ward because of the infiltration of a tremendous amount of people coming in that particular area. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Four wards. MR. DEMARS-There's four wards? Okay, four wards on a per dollar basis out of the total budget, where does all the money go? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Excuse me but if you're thinking of the fire companies, the fire companies boundary lines have no comparison with ward lines. MR. DEMARS-No, no, I'm talking about total budget cost. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It's never been divided MR. DEMARS-When you take the four wards COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It's never been divided up, it's never been divided up that way. It would be almost impossible to do it. MR. DEMARS-Well, I don't see much expenses. We pay the taxes but I don't see the expenses. There isn't really, of the money spent, you have to realize something for money spent. I see a great neglect in the fourth ward, money spent and this is what I'm seeking, all I want to do is find out total money spent last year on last year's budget for that particular area. All capital expenditures, excluding water SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Operational. Take operation out, right? MR. DEMARS-Yea, that's an emergency, yea. Total operation? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-You'd have to take all your roads that are town roads, you'd have to take which ones got paved, which ones, how the snow time. MR. DEMARS-If we were, in other words, reading the budget, I can decipher through reading this budget, I can find that out? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I would doubt it. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, you can not. MR. DEMARS-I would like to find that out sometime. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I would hate to spend the time cost accounting something like that. MR. DEMARS-Is this new computer that we're going to be buying, would that be able to relieve us on something like that? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I don't much see the point of it, frankly. MR. DEMARS-It's not something that anybody has ever asked? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I mean, if a ward system is going to divide this town so much that we're going to become four different entities, then maybe we better physically form four different entities or we better go back to the town wide system. MR. DEMARS-Well, Betty, I think that's really what you're asking these volunteer fire people. This is what I'm trying to compare. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I don't agree with you. MR. DEMARS-Well, I think that we're asking as a town, you're asking as a Town Board for these volunteer fire people to act in the same thing. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN- I don't agree with you. MR. DEMARS-Okay, that's another one. I would say the questions on raises of the Board members, what are the forecast of the raises for the next year or so? Haven't you gotten one? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Next year, there will be no raises. It will remain as it is. MR. DEMARS-I know the County is going to hit us with a proposed raise, they've got all sorts of money up there but SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Possibly, yes. There will be no raises among the Board members. MR. DEMARS-Nothing amongst the Board members? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-No. MR. DEMARS-Okay. So, what we're looking at is no increases as far as the, any Board members? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-That's correct. MR. DEMARS-You're expenses would probably stay the same if we looked back at last year's expenses, you're probably about the same? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Exactly the same. COUNCILMAN PULVER-Yes. MR. DEMARS-There's no schedule in it, classes or anything like that for any of the Board members to go? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Actually the budget this year is $400. more for Town Board members then it was last year, not in salaries but the total budget to run the Town Board. That does not include the Supervisor's budget because that's a separate item so I would have to put that together. COUNCILMAN WISW ALL-I might go to that conference in New York this year. MR. DEMARS-I wouldn't blame you Doc. COUNCILMAN WISW ALL-I missed it last year. MR. DEMARS-Well, the only thing is COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-You know, I will only tell you in that conference in New York, I start classes very early in the morning and I'm usually in class until about five o'clock at night. That's where I get alot of my information on planning and zoning, information on insurance, information on landfill closures. This is not, go to New York, have a big time on the taxpayer's expense. This is, go to New York, get alot of information that hopefully, personally and I'm saying, I can't speak for other Board members, personally that I bring back to increase my knowledge and my ability to serve this town. MR. DEMARS-I commend on that, Betty. The only I'm saying is, when you come back, do you convey this knowledge to each and every single one? See, we're looking at you as an asset because you're dispensing our money. Do you come back and convey that knowledge to each and every single one of these Board members? Because, they can't, in other words, they're not going at the same time you are. COUNCILMAN PULVER-Yes, yes, everyone is invited. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-During the operation of my job MR. DEMARS-Is it in written form? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I absolutely do, yes. MR. DEMARS-Is it in written form to where the public could see this? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, it is not and if you want to put those kind of hours into this, you're going to start furnishing the Town Board a secretary and a few things like that. MR. DEMARS-What I'm doing is striking a parallel with volunteers hours of the volunteer fire people within this community. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well, have you any idea of what a Town Board, wait a minute. Have you any idea what I as a Town Board member, the hours that I put in a week? MR. DEMARS-I would have no idea whatsoever, Betty. I do see you go around. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Do you have any idea what I as a Town Board Member hours that I put in a week? MR. DEMARS-I would have no idea whatsoever, Betty COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I would gather probably thirty hours a week, between the phone calls in my house the research I do, the problem areas that I go out and visit. My conversations with Paul Dusek as the Attorney, with Jim Martin as the head of the Planning Board with Fred as the Supervisor of this town and in going around to various departments getting information that I relay back to the people who have asked me for it or to try to prevent problems from falling. My phone at times I have been on that phone four hours solid from calls coming into my house and in fact I finally on my money, not the town money, bought a phone with a head set because I have been going to chiropractor having these two muscles treated. COUNCILMAN WISW ALL-It is very conservative when she says she spends thirty hours a week, it is more like sixty hours a week. MR. DEMARS-I was going to say probably a little bit more than thirty. COUNCILMAN WISW ALL-I'd like you and some of the other people, I would like to see you come some night and suggest that the Town Board get a raise for next year. MR. DEMARS-Well, this is what I am saying. COUNCILMAN WISW ALL-All you want to do is talk about, how much are we going to get. MR. DEMARS-I don't think COUNCILMAN WISW ALL-Nobody said anything about, that we ought to get more money, have they? MR. DEMARS-No, I didn't say that COUNCILMAN WISW ALL-We're volunteers as much as the volunteer fire men are. MR. DEMARS-Well if we strike the same parallel, yea. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Chuck, let me try to answer your question. The question really that's on the table is, what is the increase in the Town Board and the Supervisor's budget. That was your original question. MR. DEMARS-Yes. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Yes, and the increase as Betty indicated in the Town Board was $400. item. The decrease over on the Supervisor's side is, $80,100. This past year, it was $82,120. So, we're talking about a $2,000. decrease in the Supervisor's budget. So, I think that offsets to the extent that taxpayers are saving money, if that's, I guess what you're talking about. MR. DEMARS-Right, okay. My other question would be, Fred, is where did this really come from? Did it come from the corporate structure within this town or did it come from the town's people themself? Where did these questions come from as far as our volunteer people? Why have we come to this particular point, I really, what I'm trying to drive at? Where did it come from? Did the problem come from the corporate end saying that, "Hey, look, your fire departments are growing too fast, we can't keep up"? Where did the complaint come from? Did it come from the average taxpayer or the corporate end? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Well, I'll try to field this one alone and I'm sure others here will have something to say in addition to what I'm going to say. But I've got to tell you Chuck, as we're trying to sit here tonight having analyzed the budget with every individual department head, this Board is committed, okay, to either reduce or at least maintain taxes and I think it's been said clearly tonight, with the increases that are out there whether it's for risk management, whether it's insurance, whatever, our costs do continue to go up. In order for us to do the kind of job, I think that the electorate elected us for means that we go through a line by line item and that's precisely what this Board did. We're not here tonight to argue the case that where we are is where we're going to be come November 1. We're going to continue these negotiations. We, they came in with a number, we gave a number back and we gave that number back based on a very, very long term analysis where this Board spent considerable time going through each and every line item. And did we do justice? I can't answer that at this point until such time we get back to the agencies or the organizations and determine that. I can tell you this, in some of the conversations that I have had with the some of the organizations, rescue squads and the fire companies, that were not that far apart and I'm proud of that, Chuck and I believe that come November 21, we will be right there. I believe that too. MR. DEMARS-I commend you that for effort and hopefully they'll be with you in agreement. And I feel that if you put the feelers out, if each ward member put the feelers out in their particular wards and ask the people, ask the people, not the corporate end, just ask the people, "Are you satisfied with your companies". I don't really think that you would get a complaint. So, what I'm saying is, are we willing to spend more money for them? Yes, we can keep that within control. I think the taxpayers can keep it control. I think we're, what bothers me the most is our recreational budget. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Okay, we have that. MR. DEMARS-And when you address that, and when you come back and address it before the 21st in dollars and cents, I think that's something, whatever we can save there, we can certainly push over to them, saying, there's the cushion. Maybe next year it won't be there but there's the cushion. One of my other questions would be is, administration, under the Town Queensbury proposed budget, these are major Illcreases, so. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Where are we? MR. DEMARS-Individual sheet that you compiled. I like these because when I look at that budget, I didn't major in accounting. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Again, your question is, under administration, personnel director. MR. DEMARS-Personnel director, what is the administration personnel director. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Okay, as we tried to answer that question earlier, basically, it would be an individual. Now, again, this is a new position, the Board has not truly come to grips as to whether it's in or out or are there other alternatives that we may get the job done. What we're saying is that as we work with our individual employees on a day to day basis and with what's coming down from the mandates, from both the Federal and State level, whether it's an OSHA issue, whether it's a sexual harassment issue, there are a number of policies that we need to put in place with a hundred and thirty employees and a fifteen million dollar budget. And those are the gaps that I certainly have observed along with other Board members over the past ten months that we need to improve or correct. Whether it's a $39,000. individual or whether it's some other alternative that we can arrive at solving that problem, Chuck, I really don't know yet. But it is in the budget at this point. MR. DEMARS-Well, this is proposed in the budget, it isn't stamped and approved, right? It's just something that you might forecast as you might need within the town, this particular individual? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-That's correct. MR. DEMARS-Something that we'll look forward to seeing in the paper advertised as a job for the Town of Queensbury or is this SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-If in fact COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Ifin fact MR. DEMARS-This individual already pre-hired? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-No way. MR. DEMARS-Okay. This is just a forecast? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, no, no. The Town Board has not even approved the position yet. MR. DEMARS-Okay. So, what you're saying to the taxpayers then, this is a forecast that I'm looking here, major increases, this is a forecast with what you'd like to do with the tax money. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Not necessarily. This is a budget yet that has not probably had the final polishing and cutting and etcetera on, this was a proposal of the Supervisor. I don't think the rest of us have commented. We have talked to a couple of people, not within town government, for suggestions how this is handled in other areas that have dealt with other areas. We're trying to get some information, should this be split between departments we already have, what should stay in the Supervisor's office. We're looking for different solutions. It's in there until we find a solution that we think maybe will work. MR. DEMARS-Okay. Then, Zoning Enforcement Officer. I have a question on that. I'm not looking at the figure, I'm just saying, if the building, this is the nineties now, everybody is scaling down, if the building end is not going as good as what it used to do in the eighties, why are we looking for another code? Is this another different code type of thing? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Mr. DeMars, you attended the neighborhood comprehensive land use planning meeting the other night in West Glens Falls. I know you've attended some of the others. MR. DEMARS-I attended them all. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-The great comment that's been in all the them, that we have alot of zoning matters, building matters that are not enforced in this town. I think you heard that in every, restrictions put in on say by the ZBA, restrictions put on by the Planning Board when they granted a site plan review, that things are not being enforced. Our ordinance, I'll take for one, that our garbage containers have to be fenced. We all see violations of that all over town. What we really need as, what came out as a recommendation by the head of Community Development, the Director of Community Development that we really need a person who is very, very familiar with our ordinances and is out of there enforcing them the way they need to be enforced. MR. DEMARS-This person already exists within the town? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No. MR. DEMARS-Oh, you're going to have to go outside to get this person? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-There is, with the people that are in hired either in Building and Codes or in Planning and Zoning, there is no person at this present moment that would fit what we think this job should encompass. MR. DEMARS-Like I say, I attended all of those meetings and it's probably something good, an enforcement officer but if you would have this particular person focus on the needs that were expressed from each one of those meetings on the things that were not being enforced COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That's exactly what we're talking about. MR. DEMARS-I think it's good money spent. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That's exactly what we're talking about. MR. DEMARS-Good money spent. Another question would be in the Planning, I don't want to belabor this too much but I'm really curious about the Planning department, where's the Community Development department? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That is in your, in these small sheets you will find, I should be and I'm going to check this to make sure, eight nine eight nine to make sure that is Jim's department. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Is that what it is, eighty-nine eighty-nine? MR. DEMARS-What is the code, eighty-nine eighty-nine? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It's in two actual places, actually, if! remember correctly. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It's under Planning and under Zoning. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yea, there's a Zoning and there's a Planning budget. No, I'm wrong it's not that one. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I don't think you ever changed it, did you? MRS. DUBOIS-No. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-No, it still exists under Planning and under Zoning even though it is now called Community Development. MR. DEMARS-Why do we put it in Community Development, do we derive more funds from the government on that? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That's a title that we give that department. When, back under Mike Brandt's administration when we wanted to merge alot of things, he took and merged them together and called it the Department of Community Development. Because the State Audit and Control codes, Kate, the Accounting department has to put that in the budget as two different items. It's in there under Planning and it's in there under Zoning and it's also in there, where's the Building and Codes? MRS. DUBOIS-It's thirty-five ten. MR. DEMARS-But would we be saving if you, ifboth of them were condensed, right? Are we going to be saving any money when you say you have to unit amount, you have to itemize them like eighty-nine eighty-nine is Community Development. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well, we have a department that we brought many people together in to try to make it more efficient. Even though we're running that as a department, the State says under Audit and Control that we have to code these out as Planning or as Zoning or as, what is the title of the MRS. DUBOIS-The safety inspections, the dog control, all those are separate State codes. It's the State regulations so that when they get, they have set regulations that you use this code for this, this code for that so that they can take our annual report and compile it with all the other annual reports of the other communities and come up with some comparisons and some figures that people can use. It's just a standardization of accounts. MR. DEMARS-Who are we subsidizing? We're subsidizing the State on this bookkeeping? MRS. DUBOIS-This is not subsidizing anyone, this is so that MR. DEMARS-Well, the statement that you just made would be, we are compiling MRS. DUBOIS-Information MR. DEMARS-An information base to be used by anybody within the State or any other government entity. MRS. DUBOIS-Well, this information base is used by you and by the Town Board and by, you know, any business, any entity has to keep books. MR. DEMARS-We should charge them a bookkeeping charge. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Excuse me a minute, Mike I think maybe you need to elaborate how we have to operate under the law, under the department of State Audit and Control, under the State Comptroller, that we can't do these the way we want to do them. MR. MCCARTHY-Right, the State has a mandated uniformed system of accounts that every municipality in the State follows. The codes are consistent from one municipality to another municipality so that anybody can walk into a community and want to know how much do you spend on planning or how much do you spend on zoning and the code is the same. You can go in and get that information. MR. DEMARS-Who would this anybody be? Could I just interrupt there, who would the anybody MR. MCCARTHY-Any taxpayer. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Anybody, any taxpayer. MR. DEMARS-Anybody could go, if I want to go down to Colonie and see how much they spend on X amount of whatever? MR. MCCARTHY-You have the right to do that and it will be MR. DEMARS-Item number eighty-nine eighty-nine, I could find? MR. MCCARTHY-It will be the same department code. MR. DEMARS-It is comparable? MR. MCCARTHY-Yes, it is. MR. DEMARS-Code number? MR. MCCARTHY-Yes it is, it's uniform across the State. MR. DEMARS-So, if we were looking at tax dollars spent per individual within the Town of Queensbury, tax dollars spent, we could compare to a town that, with growth the same as ours? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Sure. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Sure. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-We do it all the time. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-If you're doing apples and apples? MR. DEMARS-To whose advantage is this? MR. MCCARTHY-Yea, I was just going to state that. At the end of the year, every municipality files a document with the State Comptroller's Office summarizing all of these expenditures by code and the State then compiles that into a master report that is available to the general public. You can go down to the State Comptroller's Office and get a copy of that report that will give you the same information for every municipality in the State of New York. MR. DEMARS-Could we get something like that put in our library? MRS. DUBOIS-It may in fact be in the library. MR. DEMARS-It is? MRS. DUBOIS-I don't know that it is, but it may be there. MR. BOEHM-It's at the State Supreme Court building, right here. MR. DEMARS-It might be worth our while to put it in our local library. MR. MCCARTHY-Crandall Library may have it. MRS. DUBOIS-They may already have it, I don't know for a fact if they do but I would think that they, they do have alot of reference material like that. MR. DEMARS-Well, Betty Little said that they do, whatever they do in the government structure of the County, it is documented and put in the library. So, you're saying whatever we do for the State which is mandated, I hate that word because it's coming out of the State and they always mandated something but it's never funded. When it's mandated out of the State, you're saying that maybe this is down in the library already? MRS. DUBOIS-Yes. MR. DEMARS-Okay, I won't bother you on that anymore. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-And Mr. DeMars, you have to realize that on a stated interval and I guess the State picks it, we also have State Auditors that come in here and go through everyone of these books, every bit of our expenditures, expenses, whatever they decide they're going to test that year to see if we're doing it according to the way the State has set up the rules and regulations that we do, do it. Including MR. DEMARS-Has the town ever had a problem with the State auditing? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-We have minor comments, nothing very MR. DEMARS-Minor? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I mean you know MR. DEMARS-So, we're doing pretty good then. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Absolutely. I mean, even one year, they pulled resolutions to make sure we authorized the expenditure of the money. MR. DEMARS-I'm glad that we're getting rid of Mario but we're still doing better. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I got to get back to the budget, Chuck, I'm sorry. MR. DEMARS-Okay. What was the Board's total cost of the taxpayer, to the taxpayers to date? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- What? MR. DEMARS-What do we expense as far as your total cost, is that what you gave me, that other total? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-If you're talking about the four of us MR. DEMARS-What does it cost to have the five COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Not the Supervisor. MR. DEMARS-Well, five? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well, his is a separate budget. MR. DEMARS-Oh, he's separate? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yea. If you're talking about the four of us, to date, as of November 3rd, 1994 what the town has paid out is $32,237.88. MR. DEMARS-For sixty hour weeks offour individuals? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I said my week is probably a thirty hour week. MR. DEMARS-We're getting a bargain. Thirty-two thousand? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yes, thirty-two thousand for us. MR. DEMARS-I guess my other question would be addressed probably to Carol Pulver. You are our wards person. COUNCILMAN PULVER-Yes, Charles. MR. DEMARS-And you are our representative and my question would be, how do you feel being a volunteer, which you are and you've been for some time now, how do you feel, this budget or this type of, this type of approach to rein in these particular individuals? How do you feel as a volunteer? What is your comments on that? I haven't heard much from you, that's the reason why I'm asking. COUNCILMAN PULVER-Well, mine, you know, mine, it's the same as everybody's feeling, is that there's always room to negotiate and I think that the Town Board has always wanted to negotiate and I think, and I know that we had at least sixteen meetings with the fire and rescue squads. I didn't attend every one of them but those were negotiating meetings over negotiating over their budgets and when and this is a consensus budget. This is not, you know, not everyone of us agreed on every item for, on every line item or whatever, you know, on each individual squad's budget. It was a consensus budget where we expect to, to have more input. Actually, I'll tell you, I didn't expect to have everybody kind of, go behind our backs and make phone calls. I expected them to come forward, as they've done in these meetings, I expected that to happen prior to these meetings and it has not happened. MR. DEMARS-Oh, the reason why I was asking you, before you became a Town Board member, do you feel as comfortable now being a Town Board member as you were when you were on the side looking up to the town, whoever was COUNCILMAN PUL VER- This is a very difficult job. MR. DEMARS-You said very difficult job? COUNCILMAN PULVER-Very difficult job, yes and like Betty said, we put in alot of hours, alot of hours. MR. DEMARS-Okay, thank you. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you, Chuck. Anyone else? Gentleman in the back of the room. MR. HAROLD HALLIDAY-Good evening Mr. Champagne and Supervisors. My name is Harold Halliday and I live up on the east side of Lake George, on Route 9L. I think most of you know me. I'd like to start off by thanking Betty for taking the time to come up and meet with, meeting with me as one volunteer fire fighter in your town. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Thank you. MR. HALLIDAY-You are the only Town Board member and I should make it clear that I'm not speaking on behalf of our fire company, I'm not an officer, I'm not a Board Director, I'm a fireman in your town. I've been a fireman for over twenty years, I have never complained about anything anyone has ever asked me to do and I'm trying to give you a little bit of the personal side about what it's like to be a volunteer in your town. We're not asking for much. We're not asking for a bigger payroll. We're not asking for vacations or trips to Hawaii. We're asking you for money to run our companies and I'm just a little black coat, as they call us, we don't get much voice and if you do meet with our officers, I will not be one of the people you'll be meeting with because I'll probably be out washing a fire truck in the bay some place. All I'm asking you to do as a volunteer in your town is, if you have to talk to these people, please be fair and get your facts straight. I don't know what you're job as a Town Board member. I did not know in the past but after spending the last two nights of this week here, I promise you I will visit you more and try to find out what your job is all about. I think more of us should know what you're doing so that we don't come to points like this. It never should have gotten this far. I'd also like to ask you to keep in mind that we are citizens of our town and you're part of that town. We voted you into office to do a job for us. So, you're our employees also, you work for us. We voted you into office to represent the people of this town. Now, I sat here Monday night and listened nice and quietly. I sat here tonight quietly and I listened to the people from the back of the room. I don't know if your hearing the same things I'm hearing but your voters are telling you in a majority sound that they want this budget passed from the emergency services. I find it difficult to find out why we got this far when so many people are in this room supporting the budget. There were two full page ads put in the paper that the emergency services were, no doubt about it, going to be here tonight to support their budget. Where are the people, as other people have said that are against this budget? We're not hearing them at the quote, public meeting on the budget. As a taxpayer, as a citizen, as a resident and as a volunteer, I'm going to ask our Town Board to please pass the emergency services budget as they propose it for the 1995 year. I don't think that you have heard enough opposition not to and I would question the fact that why you would not listen to the people that voted you into office. If there were five hundred people behind me that were against the budget, I as a citizen would understand your feelings. I don't understand them listening to the people that I've heard so far. Please listen to the people who have talked. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Hal, I am going to answer that and I tried not to get in any kind of a confrontational type of thing, okay. I have had people approach me and say they think the fire budget as a whole is getting out of control. I have had even fire people say to me, knowing that I'm conservative, please rein this in. Okay. Now, when I look at budgets and I see items on there highly inflated that are not fire trucks or some of the equipment like that, when I see items on there that are not firemanic related, then I think that as a Board member, I have a responsibility to make sure that those are good items across there, not inflated and some of them you can't tell all the way and you have to give an educated guess, okay. But when I also see some items that are not firemanic related, I think, you know we have to take a look at this. When I'm saying to fire companies, please come back to us in these times, difficult times, we have alot of seniors in this area living on fixed income, the fire tax is their highest town tax that they pay. All I'm saying is, please come back with your bear budget, not the champagne budget, we're not in champagne years and no pun there. MR. HALLIDAY-Betty, I take objection to that because I had a piece of paper that one of your Board members passed in the back of the room and from what I can see as a regular fireman, it looks to me like the five fire companies did look at the budget very seriously because I understand five fire companies came in with less money then last year. So, somebody had to look at it. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That is true, but when you're MR. HALLIDAY-Where are the people that are complaining to you? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Wait a minute, when you look at these budgets and we analyze them as much as we can and it's hard to do because the accounting systems aren't consistent. Hopefully, we'll be better analyzed next year, that's one reason why we're saying, you know, one year contract is what we think is going to be fair to the fire companies until we get this uniform accounting system so that there's better apples to apples comparison and another thing is people are using per runs comparison. My feeling is you don't use per run comparison because I don't care if you go out of there once or a hundred times a year, there are certain basic things you've got to pay for. Your insurance is going to stay the same, your building costs are going to stay the same, the equipment may have to be replaced more often if you have more runs. These are all the things that we tried to weigh, Hal and the vehicles came out and have gone, you know, temporarily we've put them in a separate fund. Not saying, you know that money isn't going to be collected and counted for some way. So, remember that also. What we're saying is, we did the best job we could evaluating it, just like we do for department heads. We know department heads come in with an inflated budget and excuse me any department heads that are here but this is the way of the life, we sit down, we take them apart. Now, what we're saying with the fire company, this is the way we looked at it. Now, come on guys, try and work with these figures, where they don't fit, come back to us and we're going to talk about it. MR. HALLIDAY-Okay. I'll ask again as I leave, please keep in mind that the majority of the people have spoken at this public hearing and the majority of the people that I have heard have asked this Town Board to pass the emergency services budget as proposed and as I leave, I would ask my fellow citizens and neighbors if they are in favor of passing this fire company and rescue squad emergency budget as proposed, I would ask them to please be put on record so that in the future it could be noted who was at these meetings, who was in favor and who was against. Thank you for your time. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you, Hal. (FIVE MINUTE RECESS) 10:00 P.M. MR. JOHN KASSENBAUM-You'll probably be happy to hear this, since it is already ten o'clock, this will be short and to the point but I just have some questions. My name is John Kassenbaum, I reside in ward 2 but I'm also the treasurer for Queensbury Central Volunteer Fire Company. I must say first, Fred that I was encouraged Monday, it's probably been the most encouraged I've been in the last few weeks by the statement that the Town Board did want to work with the eight organizations as far as getting down to the numbers and or budgets that everybody hopefully can work with. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thanks, John. MR. KASSENBAUM-I also want to say that I had some of those hopes dashed by some of the things unfortunately that I found out later. I hope they've been reinstated as far as what we've heard again tonight. The statement that you made as far as that you hear from the different organizations that the Town Board and the organizations are this far apart. That's the first I've heard that and if that's true, that's encouraging also. The one thing though I would like to tell and make it known is that, yes, we have met several times. More times then I'm sure we all care to remember. One thing that I do want to make plain though is that, the numbers that the eight organizations and I can't speak for all of them, so, I'll speak for Queensbury Central, we never saw this three twenty-one figure in all the times we did negotiate COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- That's right. MR. KASSENBAUM-Until Friday, October 28th and that was done by telephone. Subsequently, the public probably found out in our turn over ratio faster then we did about these numbers because they found about them Saturday, October 29th. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-In the newspaper. MR. KASSENBAUM-In the newspaper. Subsequently then, we received hard copies or as far as a mailed copy sometime around the Tuesday of the following week. Since that time, we have not been able to discuss any of the numbers. Originally, right or wrong, the impression we were given is that they were not negotiable. We have since found out that they are negotiable. I think the thing that I'm looking for right now as the treasurer for Queensbury Central and I'm not looking for wording, I'm not looking for anything else, I'm just looking for my numbers and I would like to make it known that when we proposed our $437,250. contract, we did it exactly the way that I feel the Town Board went about their budget. We looked at things very hard. We looked at things that we needed. We looked at things we didn't need. We look at things that we needed to provide the service to the constituents of our protection district. And Mr. Champagne said there's State mandates that warranted raises for the Town Board, that as far as they need to raise the monies in their budget. The same thing has happened to the fire and EMS. Mr. Champagne mentioned that there was also alot of progression in the town as far as building, expansions and what not. I know I've seen that in the four years that I've lived here and yes, I am a transplanted person to Queensbury. And in the four years, I have seen the change not only in the town but in the fire and EMS services. That was also included when we went ahead and we did our budget. We felt comfortable with it. It was also a budget that we felt that we had mentioned to the previous administration as a total overall cut, as portrayed by this, we have cut our budget steadily since 1992. We have heeded the Town Board's request for fiscal responsibility. We felt we met that but then we were handed a number of three twenty-one that we felt, first of all, even though a comment was made that it was not an ax job, I know at six foot three I felt as though my ankles at least had been cut. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-May I interrupt just a minute please. You do realize that, that three twenty- one does not have your vehicle fund in there, that, that money was set aside beside that but was not part of the three twenty-one? MR. KASSENBAUM-We do now. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Okay. MR. KASSENBAUM-Even so and we did, we felt we gave you detailed budgets and we felt that we explained the line items. It was a difficult monetary amount for us. What I'm asking for now is, if possible, without being two forward or whatever, is it possible for this Town Board within the next two days to contact the eight organizations if by Friday, the need be, preferably no later then Monday, that we can get some firm dates to sit down and start this allover again? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-We made a deal when Paul was, Paul Pontiff was speaking, when he was talking about that, that's what the deal, we made. He said that he thought the eight of you could, on your own volition put together, pencil and paper your answer to our budget and have it in our hands by Monday so that we could do just that. That was, that's, as far as I know, Brian, that's how we left that, right? MR. LAFLURE-I guess we were confused on that, Nick or it really wasn't stressed. Would you prefer to meet again or would you prefer a counter offer, is that what you're suggesting? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I guess what we're, I don't want to use the word counter offer but that's about what it amounts to MR. LAFLURE-What would you be happy with? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-What you could say is, listen, you could go all the way from, we would be happy with exactly what we gave you because we can't cut anymore or listen, we can go with three ninety- six because this is what we think. That's what we would like to do so at least we have a basis for that discussion when we sit down. One of the problems, it seems to me, is that when we go to sit down, we don't have a basis that we're both talking from and my request to Paul was to make that basis so that we have something to talk from. Okay? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-And Brian, what I said was that, that should be divided into line items. Take the figure that we gave you, make it go as far as you possibly can looking at a bear budget, now, no fancy and make it go as far as you can. Where it can't meet your true needs, not wants, where it can't meet your true needs, let us know where it can't and what line items of your budget. MR. KASSENBAUM-I guess that has kind of confused me too, the whole needs and wants aspect of what is being discussed. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well, I guess you know and I'm not going to start talking about various companies but when we looked over their budgets and we ask them for detail, okay, there were some items that were absolute needs. You know, they can't function without it, if the trucks are going to leave the bays, they're going to have to have it. There was some other things that we would like to do, we would want to do, maybe we don't have to do them right now, maybe we'll never do them and that's what I'm doing by wants and needs. MR. KASSENBAUM-What I would ask is rather then submit the number on paper, this is my personal feeling because this is how I have found it easier to work, we can submit the number but I also feel that in difference to us and in fairness to you, it would be better for us to bring the number with us, not as a, this is it, you know, we're not taking any less, we're not taking any more, but I think we need to sit down because obviously we need to explain why we're looking for the number and you need understand why we're looking for the number. It's fine to put a number on a paper in my estimation but there's, unless we go into a detailed explanation on the paper with it, there still will be alot of questions both on your part and COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I'm fine with that. Personally, I'm fine with that. I don't care as long as we have a basis for what we're talking about. MR. KASSENBAUM-And that's all I'm asking for. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Not, you and I walk in or your side walks in and we walk in and we say, we're at three twenty-one, you're at four thirty-seven, twenty-two fifty, let's wrestle. That, you know, we're not going to get anywhere do that. MR. KASSENBAUM-But I think we have to, we definitely have to do it and we have to do it soon because I know the analogy was made up earlier, or were not made up but was stated earlier that, felt that the Town Board got beat up Monday night and in a sense, and this is my own personal observation, not as necessarily the treasurer, I feel as though we've been beat up a little bit because we were never even given an inclination, originally from the different figures we were given that changed, it seemed like, that this was going to be the number and it didn't seem like we were given enough opportunity at that time at least to come back with another number right away, if that number needed to be changed. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Again, I think that was lack of time actually and when we put that number out, we said, this is where we feel we are, bear bones, we know there's going to be some negotiation but we're throwing this number out as a number to work with. MR. KASSENBAUM-And then my answer to that would be then, let's do it, if not now, then immediately. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-We have to do it very quickly because this has to be completed by, it has to be passed by eleven, twenty-one. COUNCILMAN PULVER-Let's put it like this, as soon as you let us out of this meeting, John, we're going to talk about it and see how quick we can meet. So, let's get on with this meeting. MR. KASSENBAUM- Thank you very much. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Wait a minute, John before you leave, I'd like to ask just one other thing. I know that there's some agencies out there or some organizations that we're within nickels and dimes, really and if we could get that information back from those agencies by Monday, this Board will be meeting on Monday, we can go over those numbers and without having you bother to come back in. I think we can resolve it without going through that whole process. I don't know what the rest of the Board thinks COUNCILMAN PUL VER-I don't know about that. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I was approached by one company and I'm not going to name who said, we don't have that much problem but we certainly want to sit down and be a part of those negotiations, all five compames. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Okay, I was just looking for more time for some companies while maybe others we can COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well I think maybe, Fred if we throw certain items out that effect all companies, we'll get their reaction of how all companies feel about certain types of things that you need. MR. KASSENBAUM-In a sense, I think the thing too is something that Mrs. Monahan attributed to, the non profit groups. You are going to have to take them on a case by case basis. We're here as eight organizations because we're all concerned about the fire and EMS in the town but at the same time we all want to talk about our individual needs and that's why I think you need to do it that way. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Okay, that's fine. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I think what we need to do is bring the five companies in at once. For instance, let's just take radios as an example. What's your philosophy about radios, how often do you turn them over, who do you give the new ones to, all those kind of things. We're trying to get a hold of a pattern through these fire companies with these different types of equipment, information, the different ways you handle it so that we can arrive at the best product we finally can and we need to have some understanding and we need all five companies there to give us their reaction to different things. MR. KASSENBAUM-Understandable but I think that will also, if we do it now, it's going to prolong this whole number process. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I don't think so. I think we can get, in fact, I think it's going to shorten it, to be honest with you. MR. KASSENBAUM-I doubt it, but maybe it would. Thank you. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Let's try. COUNCILMAN PULVER-You look like a leprechaun. MRS. LYNN POTENZA-Yea, I know. It's just great being a republican tonight, guys, you know, a little smiles here. My name is Lynn Potenza, I reside at 17 Tiffany Lane in the Town of Queensbury and I come to you tonight as a taxpayer in the Town asking you to reconsider your decision on your payments for the not-for-profit organizations. I looked at your fifteen million dollar budget and it's such an insignificant amount of money that has been allocated to these people, and the money that they need, they really do need. There are people in this town that use all of these organizations or these facilities that don't have the dollars to pay at the door and they can hold their head high and take advantages of these organizations because they can say to themselves, some of my tax dollars go to these organizations. So, I wish you would reconsider that decision. My next point I'd like to make is the emergency and volunteer squads, I think if a mistake has been made, it was made here tonight, I don't know why I'm so nervous, by the people behind me and that is, they came with their jackets, their shirts and their sweaters wearing their EMS or their fire company codes, they should have come with their taxpayer outfits on because indeed, that's what they are. Those are the people you're listening to, those are the people that are talking to you and I hope you're hearing them. Thank you. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you, Lynn. MR. JACK CUSHING-It's been a very interesting meeting and my name is Jack Cushing and I'm going to speak for two entities. Number one, I would speak for the Queensbury Business Association of which I'm president and the Queensbury Business Association has met with members of the Town Board and has met with members of the fire company. We're not taking a position or sides at this particular point but I think that our questions have been answered to a degree and what we implore in the way the thing is working out tonight, sounds like our wishes are being met, is to continue to negotiate in good faith with the fire companies and I've said the same thing with the fire companies, continue to negotiate in good faith and I'm sure that we can come to a proper conclusion and not be adversaries in the future. Because the one thing we can not have in this town is adversarial situations between the emergency services and the Town Board. We've got to work together as an entity onto itself. The second entity, and I use that word another time, is myself and I'm coming to you as Jack Cushing, private citizen and I don't have my jackets on or anything, I'm coming with suit coat and sweater. But I'd like to offer to you a solution to this situation, right now. I've been here al evening and most of Monday's evening. I looked at your budget and I didn't look at it in detail until tonight and then I realized that something was aIniss. I would ask of you to take another hard look at a couple of areas of your budget just like you have asked the fire companies and the emergency squads to take another hard look at their budget and when you meet with the emergency squads, please come prepared on your part to shave something too. Now, let me give you, for example and where I think you can shave it and have everybody walk out of here in good shape and pleased with it. The contingency budget. I've done budgets all my life, I've done them in a billion dollar company, I've done them in another town which was smaller then this but from a percentage point of view and also in many instances in a dollar point of view, I think your contingency budgets are out of line. As I added up, the water, the highway, general contingency, sewer and landfill, you come to $351)00. for contingency. I think that is grossly too much for this town, I don't think it needs that kind of contingency and I don't think it, if you do your jobs properly and manage properly and have a good long range plan, maybe some of those contingencies are just going to disappear down the drain because you're doing a better job and your department heads are doing a better job and they're looking forward as to how to over come these problems. The solution that I would have and I would ask you to look at it very carefully, is to take that t$351,000 and cut it right in half, just slice the thing in half and say, okay, there's a $176,000. that I'm going to put in for contingency but I'm going to put the, another $176,000. right back into the emergency or the non profits or whatever you want to do. If you divide that $176,000 dollars out into the eight emergency squads I think they will buy that. I have not talked to a single person about it but that brings it down to within reason. So, I would implore you to take a look at the contingency budget because in my experience as a business man it is too high. And you are being overly protective overly conservative but in the other vein with the prior companies and the emergency squads you are being over liberal if that is the word to use in taking the funds away. So, would you take a look at that real hard please. COUNCILMAN PULVER-Jack, I just want to make a comment on that and that's we just cannot move funds like that. In our budget the taxpayer pays nineteen cents per assessed thousand and our contingency comes out of that nineteen cents. The fire budget is a separate budget and the taxpayer pays a special tax for that and then the water is also a special district and the people pay a special tax for that so we cannot touch that contingency as well, however we all plan to re-look at that budget. MR. CUSHING-The question I would ask in that, is that when your supervisors or your department heads come in and a water company in request no contingency budget when the Highway comes in says I want nothing under contingency budget when the general contingency was asked at $100,000 and you bring it up to $275,000 dollars something is wrong in Denmark. You have got to take a look at that. I have never in my life seen where in budgeting where a department head or a department or an agency comes in and says we want this and then your turn around and give them a heck of a lot more. COUNCILMAN PULVER-Jack, what are you saying? Are you saying that you want us to look at our contingencies in our budget or are you saying you want us to take our contingencies and move it to another special district, we cannot do that but we can re-look at our contingencies if you think that they are too much. MR. CUSHING-I think the contingencies are too high, but enabling, but if you are able to reduce the contingency that brings your total budget down and you may be able to cut someplace else if you want to keep the budget the same. It comes out in the wash someplace. If you save $176,000 dollars in your contingencies it is going to add up someplace else. It is $176,000 dollars saved no matter how you slice it one way or the other. Thank you very much. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you Jack. MRS. DUBOIS-A portion of the contingency is what you have set aside for your salaries increases and all of the Highway Contingency is that, I did not look at water but I did check Highway all of it is that. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you Kate. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-The union contract has not been negotiated will have to be negotiated before the end of the year. MR. CUSHING-You will have to be hard nosed in that too. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Absolutely but you cannot run a budget as a deficit we have got to be prepared. Town money MR. CUSHING-..I hope you hear me and I am saying this in good honest and sincere ... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-What I am saying is Jack, and I have done corporation budget and I have done town budgets and you cannot approach them in the same way because of State law how you do your budget. MR. CUSHING-I know, I have done Town budgets many, many times so I understand that. Thank you. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you. Anyone else, yes, Sir. MR. KIRT HARRINGTON-My name is Kirt Harrington I live on Big Bay Road in the Town of Queensbury SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Can you hear him back there, I am sorry.... A little closer please. MR. HARRINGTON-I have no affiliation with any fire departments, I am here as a concerned taxpayer I have just heard that the tax for fire protection is separate, could you tell me if that has gone up or down this year? COUNCILMAN PULVER-Well, it was $1.27 in 1994 and right now with this budget it is proposed at $1.08. MR. HARRINGTON-Did taxpayers complain and ask for COUNCILMAN PULVER-Per assessed thousand. MR. HARRINGTON-this reduction in tax? Did the taxpayers ask for this reduction in tax? Did you get formal complaints? COUNCILMAN PULVER-Do you want me to answer? MR. HARRINGTON-Yes, please. COUNCILMAN PULVER-Yes, we have. MR. HARRINGTON-Ok, are these on file anywhere? Are they in petition form, how did they... COUNCILMAN PUL VER- There may be some on file. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Well, I am sure we have had some spoke persons here at the mic on open forum Monday nights when our regular meetings are and I am sure that would be on the record in the Town Clerk's Office. MR. HARRINGTON-As a taxpayer in this town from what I have heard tonight, I do not feel that the fire departments budget was adequately reviewed by the Board I believe I have heard comments to water drainage problems causing health hazards in my opinion the contingency is also too high and that to risks four peoples necks to risk thirty thousand peoples necks I think you have made the wrong choice. Thank you. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you. Yes, John, well first are there any others to go through the first cycle before we go our second round here? Yes, Sir. MR. DENNIS WEA VER-Ijust have a couple of quick questions. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-We are going to need your name first, please. MR. DENNIS WEAVER-My name is Dennis Weaver, I reside at 26 Ferris Drive in the Town of Queensbury. I am curious as too the method that was taken in terms of the review of the emergency services. In terms of how detailed it was when that review was done, and who were the board members who were involved in that. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-All of us that is the easy answer. MR. WEAVER-All of you, ok. Then I would direct this question to Mrs. Pulver. COUNCILMAN PULVER-Every meeting that I attended with fire and emergency services we went over every line item. MR. WEAVER-Ok, so it was confined to just the budget line items? COUNCIMAN PUlVER-Well, that is the how they made up their budgets. They had a line item and with an amount attached to it and those line items totaled what their request was for their budget, so we went over it by, we went over every line item. MR. WEAVER-My understanding is with the budget that the money that the Town gives to the fire companies and rescue squads to run their operation is that basically that, it is money, you are buying a service. Was there any look at response times? COUNCILMAN PULVER-No. MR. WEAVER-Was there any look at the training level of the various members of the department? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Other than what was told to us by the people who came in from the fire companies and rescue squads. MR. WEAVER-So they eluded to or COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- They did not elude to they directly told us. MR. WEAVER-Told you of the requirements and what not. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I will say that I do not believe we get it but the gentlemen who is hired to look at their certifying their service awards, points for their service but some people call it a pension fund but it is not a true pension, all that information does do into that, how many calls they have done, what training they have done etc. and Brian if I am not explaining that quite correctly you can amplify that. MR. BRIAN LAFL URE- There is an administrator of that plan, each organization has a representative that meets with that administrator and provides that information, that is a feature of our contract and we are required to provide that information to the town's administrator in a timely fashion so that those numbers can be put together. Yes. MR. WEAVER-Was the Town Board happy with the service that they bought over the past year? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Sure. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I am going to answer that this way, ok, I think everybody is completely happy with the service. MR. WEA VER- Thank you. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-On the other hand MR. WEAVER-That was all I wanted to know. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-all right. MR. WEA VER - If I buy something and I am not happy with it then I want to take care of it. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But when you go out and shop you can do comparison shopping we do not do this when we do the fire companies service awards, what we are saying MR. WEA VER - I was not talking about the service awards, I was talking about the contracts. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Excuse me I do not mean that, fire service contracts, I am sorry I did not mean to say awards, fire service contacts. MR. WEA VER-I guess what I am getting at is that there is an operation behind the figures and to go merely go in from what I am understanding from sitting in these two meetings is that there seems to be some sort of sediment that there really wasn't looked at what the service was as much as there was just lets take 25% off here and 12% off here. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It was not done by percentages, it was done by line items, if we felt line items were maybe estimated highly or maybe they were even a line item that should really been paid for by the donations that they receive and some of them do, do fund raising. There was an evaluation given it was not a percentage chopping. MR. WEA VER -That leads me to my next question is that you had made the comment that there was items that were not firemanically, no firemanic items were cut and that you. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I did not say no firemanic items were cut I said truck payments that were in there were kept in there, building payments that in there no body tried to cut if I remember right there estimates of the gas that it took to run those trucks, they were not the kind of items that we thought that that's where the cuts could be made. MR. WEA VER -What type of items were cut? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Maybe landscaping, maybe office supplies, if their line item came in at $2,000 and for three years their reports had showed they had paid $200.00 for office supplies unless they told us they were buying a new copier or something like that we questioned that type of thing. They were really done probably in bits and pieces here that there. MR. WEA VER - It looks there were a lot of pieces, just from one person looking at it, there was a large amount, I would look at, I think it was brought up Monday night that the total was $462,000 and somebody had mentioned and no one was sure exactly the amount of money that was cut from the budget the proposed budgets was. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- Weare sure of the number we just did not, there are two numbers, one number that is a raw number, it just has to do with things that we cut and you add, there is also another number in which we are trying to start a contingency fund so when we took a number out of a budget, lets say $50,000 that someone put in for a truck fund, that number is not gone it was just somewhere else. So, you had to be careful as to how you look at those numbers, that is all we were talking about the other night. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It was not in an individual contract number, but we have said when we are putting in the whole number for fire service, this truck fund has to be taken care of some way. And so those monies were kept, but they were not kept within individual fire companies contract. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-The exact cut was $293,626 that was what was taken out of the budget, hard dollars. MR. WEAVER-What was the, if we were to have this budget adopted today what would be the total effect, percentage effect on the taxes in the Town? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-She just indicated that it would go MR. WEA VER-I am talking about the total, in your initial. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-When you say total there is a fire tax just for fire. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-You cannot do, you cannot compare the whole budget you have to take the fire tax out, some people pay do not pay a general tax but they pay a fire tax. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Let me give you an idea COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I want to say this the tax base for the general fund is not the same as the tax base for the fire tax that has to do with exemptions and all those type of things. So, when you try to make simplistic comparisons you cannot do it. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Some where in the neighborhood of 20 cents the difference. MR. WEA VER-I am just trying to remember back to the beginning of this meeting, it was my understanding there was some quote in our original statement of 2.7% SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-That is total budget increase, total COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Did you include the fire budget in that, that's collected by another tax? MR. WEA VER -A total of 2.7% increase COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It really should not have been in there. MR. WEAVER-which includes the total property fire tax and water. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It does but you really cannot do it that way. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But you should not do it that way. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-he was just doing it for demonstrative purposes. You could not cut that way. MR. WEA VER -You just said I was a little simplistic and then I was just quoting, trying to quote what the Supervisor had said. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I cannot help it. Funds should be compared with funds because a raise by a different taxing I want to say, it is a different taxing base but it is also a different rate. So you have got to make your comparisons across the MR. WEAVER-All he was trying to say was that the over all effect would have been 2.7% but you really cannot make that comparison. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, because like I do not pay a water tax, I do not live in a water district. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- The answer to your question was 20 cents. MR. WEAVER-So in the if the proposed fire emergency services budget was to be adopted would there have been a change in the fire tax? COUNCILMAN PULVER-Originally, yes it was going to go up. MR. WEAVER-By how much COUNCILMAN PUL VER-I do not remember I do not have that sheet. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-A couple of pennies I think, about 2 cents. MR. WEAVER-Because I was looking at the budget by line, this sheet of paper that went by it looks like all of them were cut by reasonable amount as far as I was concerned. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I think maybe another thing that might throw some light on this or may make it more confusing ok, our general fund budget and the general fund runs the Highway, all the administrative expenses those type of expenses COUNCILMAN PULVER-building and grounds, recreation COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-and then in the budget you will see general fund about one third of the expense of that budget is paid for by the sales tax money that we receive back in cash from the County those or not applied to any other fund, those, and that is why when you look at this and you try to make comparisons sometimes it is very hard to do that. MR. WEA VER - I will say as far as myself is concerned, my wife and I moved to Queensbury about a year ago and just over a year ago and we left the Capital District looking for a better way of life looking to start our lives again and to raise a family within the next couple of years. The number one, in my opinion, the number one responsibility of government is to provide protection for its residents. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Health, Welfare and Safety. MR. WEAVER-Well that is protection and basically in three words. I am concerned that this budget does not reflect that type of safety or that type of protection that my wife and I had looked at when we chose to come to Queensbury. So, I would encourage the town to adopt the budgets that were submitted to them as is and to look at the methods that were employed by Steve Borgos who I think also spoke here and take John Salvadore's recommendation, to go through and possibly hire a consultant, it would be a very, it would be a shame for something tragic to come out of this because you want to cut a few pennies here and a few pennies there. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I will guarantee that any cuts the Town Budget makes in the fire company contract will not effect your safety, their safety, their response time the ability of their equipment to do their job. MR. WEA VER-I hope you are right and COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-What makes you think we are not? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-The cuts were not made MR. WEAVER-Everybody here, I have to, everybody who is here would not be here if they thought that, I mean the people here are taxpayers COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-With all due respect yes, they would because it is there livelihood, not lively hood it is their business. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-They are lobbying. MR. WEAVER-The people here are one taxpayers, and they are the experts in the emergency services and if they are concerned then I feel concerned. So, I want to leave you with that. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I can truly and honestly say to you any item that is necessary for your protection or their protection will not be cut. MR. WEA VER - I hope that is way this all comes out. COUNCILMAN PULVER-Let me ask you a question, has someone told you something that you are not going to get or some protection that you are not going to have that you are worried or? MR. WEA VER-I have been for most of my adult life in Latham, and you get the Times Union and you hear about, you read in the paper about the Troy Fire Dept. about the Troy Police Dept. and about the Albany Fire Dept. and always there is always connotation that when those budgets are being cut public safety is a factor. So, when I start hearing about that in the Town of Queensbury COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I cannot tell you about their budget I can only tell you as a Town Board Member how I will look at fire and EMS budgets and it is not and in fact if you look around this town and see the buildings that these fire companies operate from I think you will agree that this Town has supported their fire companies if you look at the equipment, I had somebody in fire equipment tell me that that is why Queensbury Firemen are very proud, they go to any type of a thing where their equipment goes with them a regional type of thing they are probably the best equipped companies north of the Capital District and we have no intention of them not being the best equipped. MR. WEAVER-OK. Thank you for your time. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Anyone else, is this your first time? MR. GILBERT BOEHM-My name is Gilbert Boehm I live on Dunhams Bay. I sat through two meetings now I feel a lot of pressure being applied to get these budgets as they were originally submitted, approved. I support the board in looking at these in detail and like any contract that you are supposed to review you should be looking at it from the point of view is there any fat in it can it be cut. I suggest that you continue to do what you have been doing, I think you are doing a good job. Thanks. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you. First time around, over there, right? MS. CONNIE GOEDERT-My name is Connie Goedert and I got my taxpayer hat on tonight. I sat here and I sat here and I sat here and I said I am not going to open my mouth when I come in here tonight. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-You know you cannot do that. MS. GOEDERT-Well, you Betty are the reason I cannot do that. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-What did I do now? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Betty is the reason most people... MS. GOEDERT -And unfortunately it just inflames her to go on more. I totally understand where the people are coming from. I am part of EMS and I was part of fire and I think that there has been a mis- construe that people are talking tax dollars and not negotiations. I do not feel that as being part of that negotiation team when we met with the Town Board and on our two meetings and we were required to be, we got the letter on Friday and we were required to be there on Monday. I do not think that they felt that, that was fair, I do not think that was fair, but I will start off a positive, with a positive. Number one I think you are entitled to a raise, I think you are entitled to a raise of a reasonable rate that we as employers or employees get from where we were. Now, you are saying that there is no raise in line for the Town Board well of course that comes from rumor that the Board voted themselves in a raise and then there was an article in the paper that three of you met together and you rescinded that raise. Well, that is fine and dandy, I for one think you are entitled to a raise a reasonable rate. I also think I as a taxpayer in the Town of Queensbury and I am sitting, I have been here Monday night and I have been here tonight and I have sat in these chairs out here as long as you have sat in your comfortable chairs up there and think that those comfortable chairs should also replace these chairs. If you want government to work government put us on the same line, give us water pitchers, give us comfortable chairs to sit in. Unfortunately, I love you I have loved you for years and you had the right attitude if you are going to sit there you might as well sit in a comfortable chair. But, we have been there for a long time. Now, I you know, I have a couple of questions, I had a lot of questions on the budget and of course I came in late because I was teaching a Town of Queensbury Baby sitters first aid class, for baby sitters for the Town of Queensbury or whatever and a lot of my budget questions I was told were already asked and they said that you requested once, I just have one question in reference to the budget. Now, I cannot remember what page it was on. COUNCILMAN PULVER-Connie let me just say something about the raises, we did not vote ourselves a raise, we voted to set elected officials salaries which would be discussed tonight, that was what the original vote was. Ms. GOEDERT-The amount was for Town Board Members to go from ninety five to ten six. COUNCILMAN PULVER-It was a elected, it was a whole sheet of elected officials salaries it was Town Board salaries it was the Highway Superintendent, it was the Town Clerk, I do not want it to be singled out that it was, it was to take to the public for public review and public scrutiny which would have been tonight, they would have questioned all those salaries. MS. GOEDERT -I understand that, but the Highway Superintendent raise stayed in, in this paper work that we have. COUNCILMAN PULVER-Well I did not have anything to do with that meeting. MS. GOEDERT-The Town Clerk, God Bless you, we told you we were going to be here a long time tonight, your stayed there. I do not know if your workers have a raise increase there? COUNCILMAN PULVER-It is in contingency. MS. GOEDERT -It is contingency ok, it is a good thing we have a large contingency right? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Is contingent our word or not? MS. GOEDERT -But, I think you are entitled to a raise. Anybody who has to put up with this for this many hours is entitled to a raise. My, I amjust going to quote, I am not going to quote it, but the Police Dept. does anybody remember what page that was on? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-No, but we will find it for you. MS. GOEDERT-If you would find it for me. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-3120's is the department number, look in the middle of the top of the page. MS. GOEDERT-If you give me a page number I would do much better..another thing too when we are asking you questions on these things and I realize that you need a much more in detailed thing than we have but if our page numbers co-inside that would be a big start. I understand that we are cutting the Warren County Sheriffs Dept. and that has been going for a decrease and for a couple of years now and our traffic cop in front of the school is also in this budget. Did we pay $975.00 for those stop lights that he has? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Pardon? MS. GOEDERT-Did we pay $975.00 for those stop lights that he holds up? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-We paid $975.00 for all the equipment we bought last year but I do not know what it was. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That was part of it. MS. GOEDERT-Then explain to me what if you took, if! turned my page over I go to traffic control is that him too? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That is Paul's lights, that is stop and go the traffic lights we have to maintain and pay the electricity on also, which is high. MS. GOEDERT-When we do a budget we don't list, Highway with Highway things? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Highway Administration under general and then you have an entire section for the Highway which is split in two between the six months of summer and the six months of winter. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Then there are some other sections and we have to do that all by Audit and Control and Paul cannot switch money from winter to summer. MS. GOEDERT -I do not really care about Paul's I was just curious as to why I am reading traffic control in reference to Police I thought was one of the same thing and really it is only a stop light. Ok. So, that brings me to the open forum of Monday night and brings me to not being able to sit there and keep my mouth shut anymore. I was have to admit that I was real angered when I read this and I could kick myself right in the butt that be bit on a five minute recess and left here. But, I can understand why Gil would be applauding the Town Board since he doesn't ask a question as far as these meetings go but its let it go just like this I mean it is very clear it is spelled out Gil, when he asked the question in the regular meeting the paper work was not there for him to have. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-What are you talking about? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-What are you talking about? MS. GOEDERT-I am reading from the draft from the open forum of Monday nights meeting. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Are you referring Connie that we have this and the public didn't and we said and we said we would have them ready for tonight, is that what you are referring to? MS. GOEDERT-Must be, he must have got his Monday night by.. COUNCILMAN PULVER-No. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, no we said we would have them ready for tonight. MS. GOEDERT-Well anyways, I can understand and you have to do what you have to do and that is why a lot of us are here and as far as several companies that they can mis-manage their truck fund money they spent it on other things ok, they said they cannot do that in their contracts but they have done that. I have a problem with this because I belong to an organization and I feel that in speaking only in reference to my own organization I think we are of an elite group and I think that our contract and our dealings and our, have been nothing but up front. I see that Mr. Caimano, counts himself as an accountant or at least an accountant trained person and that's dealing with funds and budgets and everything but when he gets down to the fact that he is talking about the companies dealing with funds he calls us squirrels in that we hord money. Well we have accountants and account trained people in our organization. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-What do you call it when you put money away, Mike? MR. MCCARTHY-I am not going to bite on that one. MS. GOEDERT-And Betty I am very concerned with the fact that the last thing that you said to the group of people that were in this room and left because we thought that the whole thing was over with, shame on us for being so stupid, was listen emergency services up here the Town Board is down here the Town Board has cut to the bear bone quote unquote and we need to meet in the middle. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-When I said the middle I wasn't taking that to mean literally you know, you take 100 you take zero.. MS. GOEDERT -..Y ou have to be taken literally you are sitting in a position where you are taken literally. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I am also doing my hands though and my hands were like this. MS. GOEDERT-Whatever we are up here you are down here you cut to the bear bones and we have to meet somewhere in the middle, let me finish and then in this statement where Carol feels that they did their job and they did it right and through negotiations and she is a taxpayer and she is a politician and she is a representative of the Town and she is a mother which we all are too and we all represent the Town maybe not in the official capacity that she does and that we cut these and we were right in what we are doing and you agreed with her. You sent two messages. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Wait a minute... COUNCILMAN PUL VER-...I would never jeopardize fire and emergency service as a mother. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I do not know what you are referring to and I would have to read that. MS. GOEDERT-I have it highlighted here and COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-And whether or not I agreed with her speech or her final sentence that we would not jeopardize the service is what I think I agreed with, Connie... MS. GOEDERT-You have a whole paragraph here and what I am saying is that you are saying that you can't take this verbally or literally and that is the way it is taken. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-You know, that is always, wait a minute MS. GOEDERT-Your statement ... for years I have put up with you saying don't start with the Cadillacs and you know I have been here for years you have been here for year. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Connie I hate to tell you this but I have heard Firemen and EMS people who will not do it publicly but have said to me personally because they know I will not do names and they think I need the information I think that piece of equipment was an over built or over done piece of equipment. Now, that is all I can tell you. MS. GOEDERT-I don't really care that tells me nothing. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-If they are here they won't say it I can guarantee that. MS. GOEDERT-What I do say though is ... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I agree you have heard people in this microphone beat up on North Queensbury for the fire house I have defended it and I mean this stuff all the while. MS. GOEDERT-You just made a statement of fifteen minute dissertation before that is about the fire houses that they have and the fire trucks that they have that will go parade anywhere and that is what I am taking from your statement literally, Betty. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I said that they buildings that they can be proud of and they have equipment that they can be proud of and that it does the job, now. MS. GOEDERT-My other concern would be to ...1 think I have the flooLYou make these statement in this thing and it goes to the public but we are not suppose to pay any attention to it because that is not the way COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I do not care how much attention you pay to it. MS. GOEDERT-It is your minutes to your meeting. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Excuse me, I just want to say, Monday night I listen to Firemen say things that they had their slant on I did not always agree with their slant but I did not want to get into any kind of an adversarial position because I do not think it is worthy of doing. What I am saying to everybody is, we have got some negotiation to do we need to come in and do it and get the best product we can do. MS. GOEDERT-What I am saying to you Betty is, the fact that you are saying that there is negotiations that have to be made and in this thing of Monday night you guys are saying you are right on board and you are not telling, you are saying the public is not getting our side of it that is in here but you are only hearing their side of it we do not want to do any slamming contests, but we are still not getting the other side of the story. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Connie, I guess I do not where you are coming from I really don't. SUPERVISOR CHAMP AGNE-I don't know where this conversation is going Connie, really. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I don't really know where you are coming from and what the comments are in the budget. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Yes, Sir. MR. DAVID HATIN-My name is Dave Hatin I live in Robert Gardens South Member of Queensbury Central and also a taxpayer. Betty I do not know if you can answer this question better than anybody, or Fred perhaps you are the person to address this question to. In our budget there is a sixty six thousand dollar difference between what you proposed to us and what we proposed to you. Betty has made a statement there are certain things in that budget that you did not include in that $321,000, perhaps to speed up some things for negotiations that will occur in the future what are those items that you do not want to pay for, I guess that is a big question I know in our organization is what do you feel out of what we submitted line item by line item that you do not want to pay for? It does us no good to sit down with our people and say we are going to go to the Board and negotiate this and say this is why we want it if you are the mind set right now that you do not want to pay for it. I think it would all save us a lot of time are there items in those budgets that you have seen that you do not wish to pay for? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I suppose but we may not, that is why we asked the question before of Paul and then John was up here and we talked again. If we do it from that stand point then the criticism could be and rightfully so that we do not know what we are cutting. If on the other hand we give you a number and you say wait a minute and you come in and you say in any particular line item we need all of this and we need all of this because then that's the justification, that is all the justification we need. To go from the other way we have said, look we think we can afford only X amount of dollars we have cut and we would be glad to when we sit down when ever it is we sit down and say we cut this line by $500 dollars and that line by a $1000 we would be glad to do that but I would rather that you would come back and say look all of these line items that we have here these are the ones I need 100% of this I need 100% of this I can give away 25% of this but it got to come from you. You are the one that is operating, I have said time and time again... MR. HATIN-But there is no particular item that you are not willing to talk about or not willing to negotiate on I guess, COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- There's what? MR. HA TIN-There is no particular item that was presented to you in line item budgets that you are not willing to negotiate on. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-...everything on your budget but no. MR. HATIN-We came up with a $66,000 difference Nick and I am just trying to figure out how the Board arrived. .. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-66 between what? MR. HATIN-Queensbury Central we submitted 437 you came back to us with 321 if you add the truck fund back in there I believe there is a 66,000 dollar difference. Obviously you look at things differently then we did what did you look at differently is there certain items I guess that you do not feel that we need or you do not feel that you want to hear about? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I am sure there is and I am sure that each one of the five of us has a different, a different slant on it, but without seeing, without having that in front of us and saying ok, that item that you have on line five which is I do not know, what ever it is I did not agree with that and Carol didn't agree with this part of it and all of us did not agree with this part we, first of all we do not have it in front of us, we would be talking out of our ear. MR. HATIN-Ijust thought that maybe it was something that would stick out in your mind? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-There wasn't a line item that went right across five companies that we said it should not be in there. No, it was different things with each company. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Well there was, there were things to be very honest with you, there were things, there were things like the office supplies, there was a how do I say this, there is a word I am trying to use and I am too tried to think about, there was a symmetry to all of you and I do not mean that you all got together, but there way a symmetry to what you asked for office supplies, well that does not make a lot of sense because your total budget each of you has a total budget that's not the same and each of you has a group of people that work in your company you have a a lot of people, Queensbury North does not have a lot of people so if you are both asking for essentially the same amount of office supplies that raises a question which we talked about. So, if there is one that was across all five that is one. Radio's was another that we talked about. COUNCILMAN PULVER-That one was across all five but also we did not just cut it we looked at everyone's past spending and truly those with the more, more members and more runs or what ever uses more paper had more office supplies. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Most of our numbers came, most of our numbers that we came down to came from what evidence we had of what you actually had spent in the past. In many, many cases and I can't and if you ask me how many I cannot tell you but in many, many cases the number requested had no connection with the number actually used over the last year or two years. That is all we had to go on. MR. HATIN-So, that is how you arrived at those figures. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Mainly that is how we arrived at them. MR. HATIN-I think that will help our people who will be meeting... SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I think another example and Brian and help me with this one too, it is my understanding that you had in the budget originally that we were going to up grade or improve upon the heating system where you get instant re-heat ok MR. LAFLURE-To cut our gas bill. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-We, I believe that we can say this that from the Board's position as we discussed it that it might be in our best interest to put that off for another year and in trying to look at the total cost trying to look at the fixed cost which would be obviously the truck funding and the facility mortgage money we are looking at some of those pay offs that is when some of these other issues that we are talking about could come in play. So, that rather than maybe holding it at this level there may be starting at this point even an increased decline, I do not know, I need to sit down with you one more time when these things can be discussed to a greater depth than what they have been. I guess that is how I perceive it. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I do not want anybody to think though that we took anybodies budget and did not treat it as an individual budget we did not look at any line items and say everybody gets a 10% cut on this no matter what they came in with first we did not treat it that way. MR. HATIN-Ijust wondered if there were some specific items that you don't feel that the Town should pay for. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I think we have gone about as far a we can go with that. MR. HATIN-That was my general question. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well specific items we felt that it had to be related firemanics you know, I can remember one that a fire company told me years ago when Dr. Eisenhart was here and this is a simple one, they wanted fancier lettering on their fire truck and they said but we are not taking that out of the town funds, because wanted the real fancy letter we are doing that out of our donations, kind of like that type of thing. MR. HATIN-Two more quick questions if you can indulge me. Fred is there any reason why the Town tax and I am talking the Town tax that the taxpayer pays was it 19 cents per thousand is there any reason why that cannot be eliminated this year? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-How would you eliminate it? MR. HATIN-I guess we are looking at $282,000 for the COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-288 MR. HATIN-to be raised by tax dollars in surplus you will have over a million I believe left, is there any reason why money can be taken off surplus to eliminate that tax entirely? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-If we are not fiscally responsible we could do it. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-We are supposed to keep a million dollars as we have been told a million dollars as a minimum. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-And that does not cover emergencies. MR. HA TIN - I understand that.. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-To do what you want to do would take us out of that realm, that doesn't mean that we could not operate we would operate at a different level but I do not know if the State would let us do that. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Dave you know there is another answer to that too and I will just speak from being serving on a lot of different administrations. ok. Try to keep the tax level, tax rate fairly level, we could put it right down to here one year and bounce it right up there the next year but I think that is awfully hard on a person who cannot control their own income that much to have their taxes fluxate so what we have tried to do on any administration I have served is to try and hold that fairly level by using your surpluses when in a bad year when, like one year our sales tax came in $25,000 under what we had in revenues that had to be made up some place or our departments had to cut their expenses. Those are the kinds of things that we try to do to keep not impose an undue burden on the taxpayers. You know when you would really be imposing those kinds of burdens really is probably in the years when people are worried about their jobs, unemployment is high because then you are not having good sales tax come in and that kind of stuff, that is a year that if we did not do this you would have to jump those taxes where there would be a terrible burden on the people. MR. HATIN-Ijust wondered if they could be reduced or eliminated entirely, that was my question. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-They could if we wanted to, take those kinds of risks. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-You may have to go out and borrow money though when you find yourself.. . MR. HA TIN - I just wondered if the Board had looked at that, that is all. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yes, we looked very closely at how much we took out of the applied out of the surplus fund and I wonder if we took too much. MR. HATIN-My third question and I guess I come to you as an employee now, there has been a lot of discussion about raises around the town hall obviously what went through the evaluation this year, has the Town Board come up with a figure for salaried employees as far what the raises will be? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Not at this point. MR. HATIN-Percentage or anything. COUNCILMAN PULVER-We are still negotiating with the Union too. MR. HATIN-But that does not effect myself and several other people in the Town Hall. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It only effects as there is a ping pong effect. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- The answer is no. MR. HATIN-The answer is no, ok. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-We have to kind of really look at both of them simultaneously. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-OK. Now, Yes Sir. MR. CHRIS CONINE-My name is Chris Conine, I live on Montray Road. I am not here to represent the fire company in any way and a couple of things in the beginning. I was here Monday night and I would like to support some of the non-profits that were here, actually a majority of them. Also, I like Connie, believe you people deserve a raise because for the amount of money you get I would not do any where's near the amount of work you do. Although I do, do nearly the amount of work you do, doing what I do here for the fire company. One thing Mrs. Monahan, you keep mentioning is the fact that, as you looked at the numbers of the fire companies the services, the services would not be effected. Something you said they have the buildings and they have the equipment, and unfortunately it is not the buildings or the equipment that do the job it is personnel with those departments. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-And when I said that I included, you know I should have included if! didn't, if I did not make that plain your protective gear and I think I also said anything the effected your safety or the safety of the people in this community. MR. CONlNE-1 think there is something that you are overlooking and that is training and, let me finish, as you go on, as I look at it and the way the budget is set up and I know that when we requested our budget it was requested because the plans for the future in up grading equipment and also obviously the needed expenses. But, I think if Queensbury Central for one took the cut that you people have proposed thus far it would require us because I know for a fact that the way our operation runs we need the amount of money, almost the, in my opinion we need the amount of money or more then we asked for. But, in essence my opinion is the service would be effected because in order to do the job the way we want to do it, we would obviously have to raise more funds as a gentlemen here suggest here tonight between fund raisers and what not and I do not know if you people know it or not and I am sure some of you have an appreciation for it and we also volunteer a lot of time. I have a projection for our department that we will volunteer 8800 man hours this year. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-There is no doubt about it. MR. CONINE-When you volunteer that much time just to train and drill and go to calls that projection that I gave you doesn't even count the amount of time we even spend planning drills the budget, people doing the budget stuff and the board people doing the board stuff and the firemen just hanging around. When you spend the amount of time, I know our department for one spends I do not think there is anymore room for fund raising. When it comes just to our letter campaign it is an incredible draw on the whole department to try and get fitted in and we end up having to fit that in during drill time. Also, the amount of time that we spend in drill is spent actually working trying to better ourselves and trying to improve the way we work with our equipment and find what equipment works for us best. I would also like to make the point here to all of you that though you might not believe it or might not know it every purchase that goes through our department and I have been on both sides of the ship as far as trying to make purchases fly through the department they get scrutinized very much in our company meetings. I know that I have personally on the wrong end of it and also the right end of it, I think the public might be getting the opinion from you people that we are fiscally irresponsible, that might be the case with some departments and I don't personally think it is but I think like our treasurer said you have to look at it on a case by case basis. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Absolutely, and you know one does not sit at a meeting like this and talk about specific items ok, or specific the way things are being done. As far as I am concerned I feel as I have on previous Town Board's that anything that is firemanic related should be 100% Town funded. When they are not firemanic related then perhaps that is when people do give you donations and things like that perhaps, where that is where those should come from and these are items that I think we will be discussing. MR. CONINE-Ok. Thanks for the time. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you. We have some first timers over here. MS. MICHAEL MERLOW-Hi, I am Michael Merlow I live on the Boulevard in Queensbury. I agree with one thing that Connie had stated, you sit here and you tell us and you explain things and we have minutes to Monday nights meeting where we were all here and then you dispute what is in writing after we all listened to it and we are reading it. Mr. Caimano, I have a question for you. In the minutes from Monday it stated here it was fun I hope that we have another listening session on Wednesday, but Carol is right you only heard one side of it. We did not hear anything returned from you other than you took each different department separately, ok, that is fine. To go on with this, you only heard on side and there is no sense in getting into a smashing contest. Ok. In the same paragraph you go on to you lived in the district, you have been here for 16 years the service is not any better it is not any worse your account trained person there is literally one company out of business they just don't know enough to roll over, if that is not smashing what IS. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Did I mention anybody? MS. MERLOW-Ifit is not smashing departments what is? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Did I mention anybody? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Yes. MR. LEWIS STONE-Lewis Stone, No. Queensbury. I just want, I have been listening here all evening and there has obviously there has been some very interesting discussion I have heard a Board that is willing to listen, I have heard a Board that says come to us and we will sit and talk and that is all we can ask of the Board. Your job is to get to listen to all the citizens, your job is to get the most for the buck that we are spending, to look hard at the job. You certainly have expressed willingness to do that and I commend you. I would also just, like to throw my support to support for the non-profit organizations, but continue to do the good job you are doing and certainly I will watch with interest as to how this thing comes out. Thank you. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you. MR. DICK GOEDERT-I am learning something, my name is Dick Goedert, I live on Centennial Drive, I am also the treasurer of the West Glens Falls Emergency Squad. I now know that $275,000 in contingent funds is a beer budget. I learned that. Am I supposed to have in our budget a contingency fund because I do not have that line item in mine. I do not have a contingency fund line item, no. I honestly did not know we should put that in there do you think that is something we should have in there? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-My opinion would be it may not show in there as a contingency item but my guess is, having been through the budgeting as long as you have been and the very fine work that you do, do with that budget that your management maybe is such that you may not need it. In our particular case, you know as I indicated earlier, as I indicated earlier, our risk out there if you will maybe somewhat greater than yours. MR. GOEDERT-I know that we have a risk, I am not sure what it is. Are we still looking at full funding? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-What does that mean? MR. GOEDERT-That is a good question, what does that mean, full funding is the line items that normally would be funded by the Town is the guide lines that we were given back in 89 lets say, those were the line items the specific line items that would be funded by the Town if we needed to purchase them. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I do not know of any line items that were cut, totally, I do not know that, I have not got your stuff in front of me so I do not know. MR. GOEDERT-So, the only cutting that you did was if you felt that we did not need to purchase a radio that would be one area you cut, when you were making your decisions. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I am not saying that was one of them but if that was one of them, yes. I cannot remember all of the things that went into yours. If that was one of them that was right. MR. GOEDERT-So, full funding is quasi questionable, right? Another area that concerns me greatly and we have not even talked about it tonight, is not only the money but also what about the wording in the contract that concerns me a great deal? As the budget officer I do budget transfers to keep things in line so I know right where I am at, is there any problem with that? COUNCILMAN PUL VER-I do not know, I have not read the contracts. MR. GOEDERT-Do you have any idea when the contract will be ready? COUNCILMAN PULVER-Another week or so maybe? ATTORNEY PAUL DUSEK-I handed it out to the Board. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yea, we have them. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-We have a draft copy of it and you are welcome to that, it is public stuff it came out... COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-When did you give it to us? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It was in with the new accounting procedures, we had it about a week. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-But anyway there is a draft copy now when you came into my office this had not been produced since that time in the last two or three days we now have a copy and there is no reason why you cannot have a copy, the draft copy of the new draft copy. MR. GOEDERT-Of the new draft copy. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-We have been going through a number of draft copies so... MR. GOEDERT-Items 14 through 19 are now filled in? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Not necessarily, no. Maybe 14 and 15 might... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Wait a minute...the new accounting procedures are a part of it, that has been a part of it, this is now with this draft that has been done. MR. GOEDERT-That is done. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yes. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-You give me a call tomorrow and if you can make it out here I will have a copy for you. Is there anyone else here that would... MR. GOEDERT-Because we have not met since we met once with the accountant we have not met since. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well we were trying MR. GOEDERT-to hear any outcome as to what we are doing or how we are doing. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-This is a draft copy. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-And I agree with you, and we have been pressing the accountant to get that to us and I think we got it sometime last week or early this week. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I saw mine for the first time tuesday, what is today, thursday, wednesday, I do not know. MR. GOEDERT-Did Paul put that contract together? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Pardon me? MR. GOEDERT-Did Mr. Dusek put the contract together? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-We did, but he did. MR. GOEDERT-Paul, in the contract is there anything about budget transfers? ATTORNEY DUSEK-I recall a provision in the contract addressing transfers between budget lines I think it said my recollection is that there is a provision of some kind saying approval by the fire company would have to submit something to the Town Board when they did that. It did not prohibit it but I think there was some sort of a review procedure put in there. I do not remember the exact wording at this point but there was some language in there. MR. GOEDERT-Is the EMS contract the same way? ATTORNEY DUSEK-Yes. MR. GOEDERT-Ok. So, if we wanted to buy something more in office supplies and we had to transfer funds we would have to come before you and ask to do that? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Was there an amount in there? ATTORNEY DUSEK-The only thing I should say and this should be clear on the record the contract that was submitted was a draft based on the discussions I had with the Board so that is why it went out to them and in fact it is underlined and there are things that are bracketed to be taken out, so COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It is not the final contract, really. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-So, why don't you come in tomorrow and seriously and get a copy and then put it in writing or the best way you can get it back to us and .... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-We have not approve it yet. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I have not seen it yet. MR. GOEDERT-You want us to wait then. That is all part of our negotiations, I really felt badly, I have done negotiations before and usually negotiations go along where two sides meet and before it goes out to the press we come to some sort of agreement, if we can't then you are at impasse, and if you are at impasse then it goes out to the press and then we deal with it then. We at West Glens Falls met with the Town part of the Town Board twice once, to explain our budget and once to re-explain our budget, and the only area that was of any concern was the office supplies. We had like 1200 dollars in there for office supplies it was a question of do you put pencils under office supplies or is it part of the ambulance when you are doing runs? It is just a question of budgeting where you put it. Also the Town firm that was hired by the Town for our accounting is that going to be ready for December? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-As far as I know it is. MR. GOEDERT-We have not hear word one back on that yet. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-You will. MR. GOEDERT -And have they met with all the eight agencies? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- There is the man, ask. MR. MCCARTHY-I believe that there has been meetings I am not the person in the firm doing it, but I believe that the meetings have been begun, I am not sure that they have met with everybody yet but a draft of the report has been given to Paul and SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-That is part of the contract, that is all part of the contract. MR. GOEDERT -Ok. One of my last questions will be what is in the Town budget for office supplies? MS. DUBOIS-That is split out by department and ... MR. GOEDERT -Just pick like the Supervisor's Office? I am not expecting you to go to each department. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-He does not have one office I do not think the Supervisor has office supplies... SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-They come out of the general office supplies, that handles.. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-There is a general central office supply that handles, you know, for instance somebody like Planning and Zoning, loads and loads of paper that they use. MR. GOEDERT-I am not talking about that, the Supervisor's Office must have office supplies. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It is not split out, because it is not the way State Audit and Control, there is a central supply. We bid those out as a central type of a bid. MR. GOEDERT-Ok. So, it should be easy to find then, on the general fund what is the office supply item? UNKNOWN-The Town Justice is $1500. TOWN CLERK DOUGHER-You made a comment about the Town Justice, that is not really an accurate figure because they do take part of their supplies from us, and we do not charge them, it is under the general, that is not a true and accurate figure of all they spend. $13,000... COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-13,OOO in the general fund, Darleen? TOWN CLERK-That is for the central store room, that is all your computer paper, your pencils, your pens, your everything. MR. GOEDERT-What was the 90, the previous years expenditures? MS. DUBOIS-94's? To date we have spent $8,137.59. MR. GOEDERT -Keep going over to the next line what was the amount that was spent the prior year? MS. DUBOIS-We spent $12,023.46. MR. GOEDERT-That is similar to how we prepared our budget we did the same idea as to we engaged what we spent the previous year where we are spending things now and where we are at, so ok, that answered by question. When you looked over the paper work for West Glens Falls Emergency I take my job very seriously and I would like to know if there is any indication from our department where we mis- managed any of the corporate funds? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Any what? MR. GOEDERT-Any of our squad funds, our truck funds, do we ear mark our truck fund properly was there any complaints along that line? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-As far as we could see it was. MR. GOEDERT-Ok. I just want to be sure of that, because we make sure that we do things properly and the impression that I get when you make out a statement and you do not name anybody why it kind of throws a cloud over all of us, and we did not do anything. Thank you. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-We have been around now for the first time, everyone has had the opportunity COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-He doesn't... MR. GARY LOCKREY-My name is Gary Lockrey from Western Avenue and I wanted to thank all the participants here tonight and the last two nights here, it has been a real education for me I have only been back home here about three years and it has been a good catch up on what is going on in the community. I appreciate the articulate spokesman on all the fire companies and also the programs presented before us here and I am really confident because of the thinking people that we have here that these issues will be resolved here in the next couple of weeks. I do appreciate the work of the board in seeking the best value for our tax dollars. I request that the Board Members track the time that they spend on town business between January and September of next year and report that to the public during the budget hour time so that the people get a better appreciation for our per hour rate of your service. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-You are just going to add another hour to my week for doing that. MR. LOCKREY -Yea, maybe, well, I think that would be helpful if it could be possible. Anyway concerning the non-profit organization, I do support the good works of these organizations but before you can give to them you must take and you must take from the taxpayers and I think that all the comments that we had especially on Monday night alluded to one theme and that as that the Queensbury funding to the non-profit organizations is irreplaceable it is not irreplaceable many more of the non-profit organizations in this area receive no tax payer funding as a foreinstance the Mohican Council Boy Scouts of America is about 60,000 dollars short on their funding for this year and they are not here asking that we the taxpayers cover their short fall. I am confident that the Board will also remember the Article 8 Section 1 of the New York State Constitution that says quote No County, City, Town, Village of School District shall give or loan any money or property to or in aid of any individual or private corporation or association of private undertaking. That is the will and intent of the citizens of New York as expressed in our constitution. I am confident that our Board will act on this issue in accordance with the Law and with the will of the people and in the best interests of our citizens. Thank you. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Paul would you care to respond to that about the law I do not want people to think that we are not disbursing Town money properly. ATTORNEY DUSEK-I think certainly that was a correct reading of the constitution in terms of what I just heard, however I have to stress that that indicates give you certainly have the right to contract for services provided for any organization including not for profit organizations. There is specifically certain sections of State law that actually provides for you know these monies to go out, foreinstance in the case of the VFW is a good example where in the State law they have got right down the exact amount of money that you can contribute up to. Youth programs are authorized under the General Municipal Law, Senior Citizen programs are authorized under the General Municipal Law. The Town under the Town law is authorized to spend money for the cultural improvement of people including having things such as band concerts, if that is what the Town chose to do. So, there are a number of laws that do provide that you can contract for the types of services, foreinstance Crandall Library is a service a museum is a service to its people, each of these you can contract to have those services made available to the public is you feel that, that is appropriate expenditure of the funds and if you haver the proper contracting place. So, I think you have to be careful between giving money away and contracting, certainly you cannot gift money away but you certainly can contract for a service. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Ok. Everyone else has been through one time, John. MR. JOHN SAL V ADORE-There has been much discussion here tonight about contingency and I think we are lead to believe that the State encourages you to maintain a contingency, I think however it is a limitation on how much you can carry rather than a requirement, well there is a big difference. So, you should not exceed a certain amount you can go from zero to that amount depending on what you are dealing with. Now, you have primarily administrative functions that you perform they are not difficult to forecast in their costs. In all of these things like the roof blowing off you should not put in there because you will find a way to spend them before the year is out. If the roof blows off we will take care of that when it happens if it happens. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-What is the percentage that we are allowed to take, you mentioned it a minute ago. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-IO% am I right is that 10% contingency up to? MR. SALVADORE-Earlier this evening one of the Gentlemen came to the mic and asked the question, who is complaining with regard to emergency services and fire services and the tax therefore, on January 24th of this year I wrote Fred Champagne this letter and I would like to quote from it if! could. I believe the long term interest of the Town might best be served by the Town Board's initiation of a comprehensive study of the emergency services presently being contracted by the Town. Such a comprehensive study might address the issues of Town volunteer staff departments versus private volunteer companies, consolidation of emergency services from personnel to equipment including buildings, the fact that major facilities in our community are exempt from fire and EMT taxes such as the Warren County Airport the Municipal Center the Adirondack Community College, Inter State 87, State owned land in the Adirondack Park, third party payment for emergency services for ambulance and fire response, gearing the fire tax district, gearing the fire district tax to the risk to fire loss, pay for structures not for land over valued vacant land and lake shore frontage. Fire taxing districts versus single town wide taxing district and fire company consolidation. I am sure there are other factors to be considered in an effort to control the run away costs are present approach is experiencing and can not help but continue to experience in the future. People are complaining, I will give you this copy of this letter. As you go forward and revise this budget, I would like to remind you of one, something one of the founding fathers said, I think it was Benjamin Franklin, he said when the people learn they can vote themselves money it will be the end of the republic. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you. Now where are we, anyone else out there? Are we all done and all in? Mr. Brian. MR. BRIAN LAFLURE-This will be easy. I have a couple of things and I, it is too bad Betty isn't here because I wanted to address it to her. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Where did she go? COUNCILMAN PULVER-She probably just went to the ladies room. MR. BRIAN LAFL URE- I am sure she did and she deserves that. One of the things that gets brought up every time we come to one of these meetings and I am sure it is not done purposely but it aggravates me like finger nails on a black board, that is when the comparison, here she comes now, we are not talking about you Betty, you can come in, we are just talking about what you said. I started out one of the things that aggravates me and I know you do not do it purposely is when we discuss the tax rate itself it always somehow comes out the statement is made that the fire tax is so much greater than the town tax, I know in the real world as it appears on your tax bill the 28 cents or whatever it is for the town and the dollar something for fire tax anyone with a brain can see that those two number are different. What it really should reflect if you are going to have that discussion people have the impression that it costs so much more to run the fire companies than it does to run the town, remember that your total Town General Fund Budget what it costs to operate without the special districts is a much greater number but it is off set by sales tax dollars and the other monies that you receive. We all understand that monies that paid for out of the fund balance and the tax dollars that are received it just bothers me when the statement is made that it cost so much more for emergency services in this Town than it does to run everything else. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Brian if you listened earlier tonight I think I want through that when I said when you look at the Town Tax the Town General fund remember that about one third of that is paid out of sales tax dollars. MR. LAFLURE-I do not recall hearing that Betty. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But, I did. MR. LAFLURE-Ok, but we hear that statement and that bothers me. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I did make that statement. MR. LAFL URE- The other thing that I see is I hear a lot of discussion and I have tried to listen and not talk so much, as we talk about negotiating these budgets we all seem to fall back to the same question. Your definition of firemanic and non firemanic and perhaps our definition of firemanic and non firemanic, Betty you have mention that a hundred times and rightly so you only want to pay for firemanic items. We agree as I made in my statement Monday night, we have two very distinct accounting systems, one is fire manic and one is non firemanic I think that perhaps the question is interpretation we need a definite list or a reading or whatever you want to call it, maybe perhaps call the five fire companies together and then the three squads together what are your line items what are the things you use and are they firemanic or non firemanic then your questions about whether this item is firemanic or non firemanic then it is just a matter of taking a calculator add up the firemanic items and that is your budget, you add up the non firemanic items and there is something else it is up to the local organizations through their fund raising or whatever terms they use to come up with that money. I think that is important. We are a group know for a fact no more than you would ask Paul Naylor to have his guys stand on a street comer to collect money to put fuel in his highway trucks or whatever is necessary we know that is ridiculous COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I do not think anybody wants you to. MR. LAFLURE-I understand, let me finish my thought. The people in the Town know that in their tax dollars they pay for a service, and that is exactly what we do, we provide a service to the residents of the Town the only difference between us and Paul Naylor's people or any of the rest of the people that work for the Town of Queensbury is that we do not get paid. As far as the operational part of it no more than you would expect Paul Naylor to provide his own car or for the Town Highway to fix his own plow truck and pay for the light bulb himself on it everyone would say that is ridiculous that is part of operating the highway, the same thing happens with fire. So, I think if we come up with a legitimate all, everybody say ok, here is the item, here is what is included in your contract, this is what isn't in your contract, then when we come down to you guys saying you know, we have looked at your budget these are the items you can or cannot do, we took this item out because it is not included. Fine. Then lets all work from the same list though so that I do not make a fool of myself asking for something that you feel is not firemanic yet I do, lets work from the same list, lets do it the same way and then we will avoid sessions like this that have consumed so much of our time. Thank you. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-We are getting there Brian, aren't we, together aren't we getting there? MR. LAFLURE-Yes, we are. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Yes, we are. Thank you. COUNCILMAN DR. R. GEORGE WISW ALL-Brian, I would like to tell you one thing, when I came on this Board I suggested that the fire tax be broken down for fire and for EMS so it would appear that way on our tax bill, because people don't realize when they pay their fire tax that they are paying for the emergency squad as well. Fred has taken that to the County and I do not whether, is that going to happen this next year. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-We did not have time to put it all in place by January but it will be there for school tax, separated out, is that what you are saying? COUNCILMAN WISW ALL-Yea, on our tax bill would be broken down so we would know what .... MR. LAFL URE-Suggestion we had made was to either list it twice or if it was easier to just change the verbiage to emergency services tax as compared to fire tax so the people understood what they were really paymg. COUNCILMAN WISW ALL-Well, it would be better if it was broken down, then they would understand. MR. LAFLURE-That is fine with us. COUNCILMAN WISW ALL-And also I would like to say Brian if you and I could be appointed as a pair to get together we could settle this in about fifteen minutes. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thanks George. Are we all done and in at this point it is about twenty five minutes to twelve and, I am sorry, excuse me. MR. JOHN OWENS-Everybody said everything I want to say except for one possible new thought for next year in doing your budgets, John Owens Assembly Point, what I just handed out to you is the billing form from the Town of Colonie, theoretically based upon additional whatever division you are looking at roughly $175.00 a call conservative this is for EMS for BLS, ALS combined whatever, it is actually ALS is obviously higher, depending on what you do and what drugs you have. This is all the techniques that you do down in Colonie, everything is listed. You are looking at per thousand calls you are looking at $175,000 that would off set your EMS budget, make you guys look pretty good. I suggest you really consider this and just don't sit there and give us the same answer every year that well, we do not think the Town is ready for this, it is easy it's third party billing. It is done through another agency, I do not think it is done within the Town of Colonie, they hire out to some other organization to do it. They take their five, ten percent off the top they hand the Town of Colonie the money. We do down in the Town of Colonie about 8,000 to 9,000 calls a year so you can see how much money it generates. We have the best equipment we have got the best personnel we have got partial paid we have partial part time and we have volunteers. I do not know if the entire, if that money coming in that seven thousand runs a year if that money pays for everything but gee it is got to put an awful dent in it. Now, another part of this is, I asked some of the people down in the Town, I said what is your percentage of collections on this and they told me over 90%. I am not sure exactly what the figure was but I heard it was over 90%. Third party billing what they do is they bill the insurance company of the person that uses our services. If on insurance, if an individual patient does not have insurance then they are sent one letter, a collection letter, one letter, period. If an uninsured person doesn't pay there is no follow up bill, you take it from there. But, I think this is serious income that you people are missing out on and the Town's people are missing out on and if you really want to save anything in the EMS budgets and so forth maybe this is the way of off setting it and not making us suffer in the process. Thank you. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-John before you leave I would just like to get together for a moment after we close here with our Attorney because we have been discussing this and there is some concern, maybe you could help me answer that. MR. OWENS-I want you to understand something, and in the first place I work down there and I am at the lowest end of the ladder, I have worked down there for two years, I work one day a week. So, I may not have all the information but I have asked a bunch of questions, just so you understand that. SUPERVISOR CHAMP AGNE- That is fine, that is good. Thank you. Now, where are we? Call it a good night, Thank you very much for your input, see you again a year from now, I hope. Respectfully submitted, Miss Darleen Dougher Town Clerk SECOND TAPE 11-9-94 #15 MR. JACK CUSHING-...cut it in half and say ok there is $176,000 dollars that I am going to put into the contingency but I am going to put the another $176,000 dollars right back into the emergency or the non- profits or whatever you want to do. If you divide that $176,000 dollars out into the eight emergency squads I think they will buy that. I have not talked to a single person about it but that brings it down to within reason. So, I would implore you to take a look at the contingency budget because in my experience as a business man it is too high. And you are being overly protective overly conservative but in the other vein with the prior companies and the emergency squads you are being over liberal if that is the word to use in taking the funds away. So, would you take a look at that real hard please. COUNCILMAN PULVER-Jack, I just want to make a comment on that and that's we just cannot move funds like that. In our budget the taxpayer pays nineteen cents per assessed thousand and our contingency comes out of that nineteen cents. The fire budget is a separate budget and the taxpayer pays a special tax for that and then the water is also a special district and the people pay a special tax for that so we cannot touch that contingency as well, however we all plan to re-look at that budget. MR. CUSHING-The question I would ask in that, is that when your supervisors or your department heads come in and a water company in request no contingency budget when the Highway comes in says I want nothing under contingency budget when the general contingency was asked at $100,000 and you bring it up to $275,000 dollars something is wrong in Denmark. You have got to take a look at that. I have never in my life seen where in budgeting where a department head or a department or an agency comes in and says we want this and then your turn around and give them a heck of a lot more. COUNCILMAN PULVER-Jack, what are you saying? Are you saying that you want us to look at our contingencies in our budget or are you saying you want us to take our contingencies and move it to another special district, we cannot do that but we can re-look at our contingencies if you think that they are too much. MR. CUSHING-I think the contingencies are too high, but enabling, but if you are able to reduce the contingency that brings your total budget down and you may be able to cut someplace else if you want to keep the budget the same. It comes out in the wash someplace. If you save $176,000 dollars in your contingencies it is going to add up someplace else. It is $176,000 dollars saved no matter how you slice it one way or the other. Thank you very much. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you Jack. MRS. DUBOIS-A portion of the contingency is what you have set aside for your salaries increases and all of the Highway Contingency is that, I did not look at water but I did check Highway all of it is that. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you Kate. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-The union contract has not been negotiated will have to be negotiated before the end of the year. MR. CUSHING-You will have to be hard nosed in that too. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Absolutely but you cannot run a budget as a deficit we have got to be prepared. Town money MR. CUSHING-..I hope you hear me and I am saying this in good honest and sincere ... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-What I am saying is Jack, and I have done corporation budget and I have done town budgets and you cannot approach them in the same way because of State law how you do your budget. MR. CUSHING-I know, I have done Town budgets many, many times so I understand that. Thank you. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you. Anyone else, yes, Sir. MR. KIRT HARRINGTON-My name is Kirt Harrington I live on Big Bay Road in the Town of Queensbury SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Can you hear him back there, I am sorry.... A little closer please. MR. HARRINGTON-I have no affiliation with any fire departments, I am here as a concerned taxpayer I have just heard that the tax for fire protection is separate, could you tell me if that has gone up or down this year? COUNCILMAN PULVER-Well, it was $1.27 in 1994 and right now with this budget it is proposed at $1.08. MR. HARRINGTON-Did taxpayers complain and ask for COUNCILMAN PULVER-Per assessed thousand. MR. HARRINGTON-this reduction in tax? Did the taxpayers ask for this reduction in tax? Did you get formal complaints? COUNCILMAN PULVER-Do you want me to answer? MR. HARRINGTON-Yes, please. COUNCILMAN PULVER-Yes, we have. MR. HARRINGTON-Ok, are these on file anywhere? Are they in petition form, how did they... COUNCILMAN PUL VER- There may be some on file. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Well, I am sure we have had some spoke persons here at the mic on open forum Monday nights when our regular meetings are and I am sure that would be on the record in the Town Clerk's Office. MR. HARRINGTON-As a taxpayer in this town from what I have heard tonight, I do not feel that the fire departments budget was adequately reviewed by the Board I believe I have heard comments to water drainage problems causing health hazards in my opinion the contingency is also too high and that to risks four peoples necks to risk thirty thousand peoples necks I think you have made the wrong choice. Thank you. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you. Yes, John, well first are there any others to go through the first cycle before we go our second round here? Yes, Sir. MR. DENNIS WEA VER-Ijust have a couple of quick questions. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-We are going to need your name first, please. MR. DENNIS WEAVER-My name is Dennis Weaver, I reside at 26 Ferris Drive in the Town of Queensbury. I am curious as too the method that was taken in terms of the review of the emergency services. In terms of how detailed it was when that review was done, and who were the board members who were involved in that. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-All of us that is the easy answer. MR. WEAVER-All of you, ok. Then I would direct this question to Mrs. Pulver. COUNCILMAN PULVER-Every meeting that I attended with fire and emergency services we went over every line item. MR. WEAVER-Ok, so it was confined to just the budget line items? COUNCIMAN PUlVER-Well, that is the how they made up their budgets. They had a line item and with an amount attached to it and those line items totaled what their request was for their budget, so we went over it by, we went over every line item. MR. WEAVER-My understanding is with the budget that the money that the Town gives to the fire companies and rescue squads to run their operation is that basically that, it is money, you are buying a service. Was there any look at response times? COUNCILMAN PULVER-No. MR. WEAVER-Was there any look at the training level of the various members of the department? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Other than what was told to us by the people who came in from the fire companies and rescue squads. MR. WEAVER-So they eluded to or COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- They did not elude to they directly told us. MR. WEAVER-Told you of the requirements and what not. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I will say that I do not believe we get it but the gentlemen who is hired to look at their certifying their service awards, points for their service but some people call it a pension fund but it is not a true pension, all that information does do into that, how many calls they have done, what training they have done etc. and Brian if I am not explaining that quite correctly you can amplify that. MR. BRIAN LAFL URE- There is an administrator of that plan, each organization has a representative that meets with that administrator and provides that information, that is a feature of our contract and we are required to provide that information to the town's administrator in a timely fashion so that those numbers can be put together. Yes. MR. WEAVER-Was the Town Board happy with the service that they bought over the past year? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Sure. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I am going to answer that this way, ok, I think everybody is completely happy with the service. MR. WEA VER- Thank you. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-On the other hand MR. WEAVER-That was all I wanted to know. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-all right. MR. WEA VER - If I buy something and I am not happy with it then I want to take care of it. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But when you go out and shop you can do comparison shopping we do not do this when we do the fire companies service awards, what we are saying MR. WEA VER - I was not talking about the service awards, I was talking about the contracts. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Excuse me I do not mean that, fire service contracts, I am sorry I did not mean to say awards, fire service contacts. MR. WEA VER-I guess what I am getting at is that there is an operation behind the figures and to go merely go in from what I am understanding from sitting in these two meetings is that there seems to be some sort of sediment that there really wasn't looked at what the service was as much as there was just lets take 25% off here and 12% off here. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It was not done by percentages, it was done by line items, if we felt line items were maybe estimated highly or maybe they were even a line item that should really been paid for by the donations that they receive and some of them do, do fund raising. There was an evaluation given it was not a percentage chopping. MR. WEA VER -That leads me to my next question is that you had made the comment that there was items that were not firemanically, no firemanic items were cut and that you. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I did not say no firemanic items were cut I said truck payments that were in there were kept in there, building payments that in there no body tried to cut if I remember right there estimates of the gas that it took to run those trucks, they were not the kind of items that we thought that that's where the cuts could be made. MR. WEA VER -What type of items were cut? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Maybe landscaping, maybe office supplies, if their line item came in at $2,000 and for three years their reports had showed they had paid $200.00 for office supplies unless they told us they were buying a new copier or something like that we questioned that type of thing. They were really done probably in bits and pieces here that there. MR. WEA VER - It looks there were a lot of pieces, just from one person looking at it, there was a large amount, I would look at, I think it was brought up Monday night that the total was $462,000 and somebody had mentioned and no one was sure exactly the amount of money that was cut from the budget the proposed budgets was. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- Weare sure of the number we just did not, there are two numbers, one number that is a raw number, it just has to do with things that we cut and you add, there is also another number in which we are trying to start a contingency fund so when we took a number out of a budget, lets say $50,000 that someone put in for a truck fund, that number is not gone it was just somewhere else. So, you had to be careful as to how you look at those numbers, that is all we were talking about the other night. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It was not in an individual contract number, but we have said when we are putting in the whole number for fire service, this truck fund has to be taken care of some way. And so those monies were kept, but they were not kept within individual fire companies contract. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-The exact cut was $293,626 that was what was taken out of the budget, hard dollars. MR. WEAVER-What was the, if we were to have this budget adopted today what would be the total effect, percentage effect on the taxes in the Town? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-She just indicated that it would go MR. WEA VER-I am talking about the total, in your initial. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-When you say total there is a fire tax just for fire. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-You cannot do, you cannot compare the whole budget you have to take the fire tax out, some people pay do not pay a general tax but they pay a fire tax. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Let me give you an idea COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I want to say this the tax base for the general fund is not the same as the tax base for the fire tax that has to do with exemptions and all those type of things. So, when you try to make simplistic comparisons you cannot do it. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Some where in the neighborhood of 20 cents the difference. MR. WEA VER-I am just trying to remember back to the beginning of this meeting, it was my understanding there was some quote in our original statement of 2.7% SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-That is total budget increase, total COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Did you include the fire budget in that, that's collected by another tax? MR. WEA VER -A total of 2.7% increase COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It really should not have been in there. MR. WEAVER-which includes the total property fire tax and water. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-It does but you really cannot do it that way. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But you should not do it that way. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-he was just doing it for demonstrative purposes. You could not cut that way. MR. WEA VER -You just said I was a little simplistic and then I was just quoting, trying to quote what the Supervisor had said. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I cannot help it. Funds should be compared with funds because a raise by a different taxing I want to say, it is a different taxing base but it is also a different rate. So you have got to make your comparisons across the MR. WEAVER-All he was trying to say was that the over all effect would have been 2.7% but you really cannot make that comparison. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, because like I do not pay a water tax, I do not live in a water district. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- The answer to your question was 20 cents. MR. WEAVER-So in the if the proposed fire emergency services budget was to be adopted would there have been a change in the fire tax? COUNCILMAN PULVER-Originally, yes it was going to go up. MR. WEAVER-By how much COUNCILMAN PUL VER-I do not remember I do not have that sheet. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-A couple of pennies I think, about 2 cents. MR. WEAVER-Because I was looking at the budget by line, this sheet of paper that went by it looks like all of them were cut by reasonable amount as far as I was concerned. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I think maybe another thing that might throw some light on this or may make it more confusing ok, our general fund budget and the general fund runs the Highway, all the administrative expenses those type of expenses COUNCILMAN PULVER-building and grounds, recreation COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-and then in the budget you will see general fund about one third of the expense of that budget is paid for by the sales tax money that we receive back in cash from the County those or not applied to any other fund, those, and that is why when you look at this and you try to make comparisons sometimes it is very hard to do that. MR. WEA VER - I will say as far as myself is concerned, my wife and I moved to Queensbury about a year ago and just over a year ago and we left the Capital District looking for a better way of life looking to start our lives again and to raise a family within the next couple of years. The number one, in my opinion, the number one responsibility of government is to provide protection for its residents. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Health, Welfare and Safety. MR. WEAVER-Well that is protection and basically in three words. I am concerned that this budget does not reflect that type of safety or that type of protection that my wife and I had looked at when we chose to come to Queensbury. So, I would encourage the town to adopt the budgets that were submitted to them as is and to look at the methods that were employed by Steve Borgos who I think also spoke here and take John Salvadore's recommendation, to go through and possibly hire a consultant, it would be a very, it would be a shame for something tragic to come out of this because you want to cut a few pennies here and a few pennies there. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I will guarantee that any cuts the Town Budget makes in the fire company contract will not effect your safety, their safety, their response time the ability of their equipment to do their job. MR. WEA VER-I hope you are right and COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-What makes you think we are not? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-The cuts were not made MR. WEAVER-Everybody here, I have to, everybody who is here would not be here if they thought that, I mean the people here are taxpayers COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-With all due respect yes, they would because it is there livelihood, not lively hood it is their business. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-They are lobbying. MR. WEAVER-The people here are one taxpayers, and they are the experts in the emergency services and if they are concerned then I feel concerned. So, I want to leave you with that. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I can truly and honestly say to you any item that is necessary for your protection or their protection will not be cut. MR. WEA VER - I hope that is way this all comes out. COUNCILMAN PULVER-Let me ask you a question, has someone told you something that you are not going to get or some protection that you are not going to have that you are worried or? MR. WEA VER-I have been for most of my adult life in Latham, and you get the Times Union and you hear about, you read in the paper about the Troy Fire Dept. about the Troy Police Dept. and about the Albany Fire Dept. and always there is always connotation that when those budgets are being cut public safety is a factor. So, when I start hearing about that in the Town of Queensbury COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I cannot tell you about their budget I can only tell you as a Town Board Member how I will look at fire and EMS budgets and it is not and in fact if you look around this town and see the buildings that these fire companies operate from I think you will agree that this Town has supported their fire companies if you look at the equipment, I had somebody in fire equipment tell me that that is why Queensbury Firemen are very proud, they go to any type of a thing where their equipment goes with them a regional type of thing they are probably the best equipped companies north of the Capital District and we have no intention of them not being the best equipped. MR. WEAVER-OK. Thank you for your time. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Anyone else, is this your first time? MR. GILBERT BOEHM-My name is Gilbert Boehm I live on Dunhams Bay. I sat through two meetings now I feel a lot of pressure being applied to get these budgets as they were originally submitted, approved. I support the board in looking at these in detail and like any contract that you are supposed to review you should be looking at it from the point of view is there any fat in it can it be cut. I suggest that you continue to do what you have been doing, I think you are doing a good job. Thanks. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you. First time around, over there, right? MS. CONNIE GOEDERT-My name is Connie Goedert and I got my taxpayer hat on tonight. I sat here and I sat here and I sat here and I said I am not going to open my mouth when I come in here tonight. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-You know you cannot do that. MS. GOEDERT-Well, you Betty are the reason I cannot do that. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-What did I do now? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Betty is the reason most people... MS. GOEDERT -And unfortunately it just inflames her to go on more. I totally understand where the people are coming from. I am part of EMS and I was part of fire and I think that there has been a mis- construe that people are talking tax dollars and not negotiations. I do not feel that as being part of that negotiation team when we met with the Town Board and on our two meetings and we were required to be, we got the letter on Friday and we were required to be there on Monday. I do not think that they felt that, that was fair, I do not think that was fair, but I will start off a positive, with a positive. Number one I think you are entitled to a raise, I think you are entitled to a raise of a reasonable rate that we as employers or employees get from where we were. Now, you are saying that there is no raise in line for the Town Board well of course that comes from rumor that the Board voted themselves in a raise and then there was an article in the paper that three of you met together and you rescinded that raise. Well, that is fine and dandy, I for one think you are entitled to a raise a reasonable rate. I also think I as a taxpayer in the Town of Queensbury and I am sitting, I have been here Monday night and I have been here tonight and I have sat in these chairs out here as long as you have sat in your comfortable chairs up there and think that those comfortable chairs should also replace these chairs. If you want government to work government put us on the same line, give us water pitchers, give us comfortable chairs to sit in. Unfortunately, I love you I have loved you for years and you had the right attitude if you are going to sit there you might as well sit in a comfortable chair. But, we have been there for a long time. Now, I you know, I have a couple of questions, I had a lot of questions on the budget and of course I came in late because I was teaching a Town of Queensbury Baby sitters first aid class, for baby sitters for the Town of Queensbury or whatever and a lot of my budget questions I was told were already asked and they said that you requested once, I just have one question in reference to the budget. Now, I cannot remember what page it was on. COUNCILMAN PULVER-Connie let me just say something about the raises, we did not vote ourselves a raise, we voted to set elected officials salaries which would be discussed tonight, that was what the original vote was. Ms. GOEDERT-The amount was for Town Board Members to go from ninety five to ten six. COUNCILMAN PULVER-It was a elected, it was a whole sheet of elected officials salaries it was Town Board salaries it was the Highway Superintendent, it was the Town Clerk, I do not want it to be singled out that it was, it was to take to the public for public review and public scrutiny which would have been tonight, they would have questioned all those salaries. MS. GOEDERT -I understand that, but the Highway Superintendent raise stayed in, in this paper work that we have. COUNCILMAN PULVER-Well I did not have anything to do with that meeting. MS. GOEDERT-The Town Clerk, God Bless you, we told you we were going to be here a long time tonight, your stayed there. I do not know if your workers have a raise increase there? COUNCILMAN PULVER-It is in contingency. MS. GOEDERT -It is contingency ok, it is a good thing we have a large contingency right? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Is contingent our word or not? MS. GOEDERT -But, I think you are entitled to a raise. Anybody who has to put up with this for this many hours is entitled to a raise. My, I amjust going to quote, I am not going to quote it, but the Police Dept. does anybody remember what page that was on? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-No, but we will find it for you. MS. GOEDERT-If you would find it for me. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-3l20's is the department number, look in the middle of the top of the page. MS. GOEDERT-If you give me a page number I would do much better..another thing too when we are asking you questions on these things and I realize that you need a much more in detailed thing than we have but if our page numbers co-inside that would be a big start. I understand that we are cutting the Warren County Sheriffs Dept. and that has been going for a decrease and for a couple of years now and our traffic cop in front of the school is also in this budget. Did we pay $975.00 for those stop lights that he has? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Pardon? MS. GOEDERT-Did we pay $975.00 for those stop lights that he holds up? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-We paid $975.00 for all the equipment we bought last year but I do not know what it was. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That was part of it. MS. GOEDERT-Then explain to me what if you took, if! turned my page over I go to traffic control is that him too? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-That is Paul's lights, that is stop and go the traffic lights we have to maintain and pay the electricity on also, which is high. MS. GOEDERT-When we do a budget we don't list, Highway with Highway things? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Highway Administration under general and then you have an entire section for the Highway which is split in two between the six months of summer and the six months of winter. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Then there are some other sections and we have to do that all by Audit and Control and Paul cannot switch money from winter to summer. MS. GOEDERT -I do not really care about Paul's I was just curious as to why I am reading traffic control in reference to Police I thought was one of the same thing and really it is only a stop light. Ok. So, that brings me to the open forum of Monday night and brings me to not being able to sit there and keep my mouth shut anymore. I was have to admit that I was real angered when I read this and I could kick myself right in the butt that be bit on a five minute recess and left here. But, I can understand why Gil would be applauding the Town Board since he doesn't ask a question as far as these meetings go but its let it go just like this I mean it is very clear it is spelled out Gil, when he asked the question in the regular meeting the paper work was not there for him to have. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-What are you talking about? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-What are you talking about? MS. GOEDERT-I am reading from the draft from the open forum of Monday nights meeting. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Are you referring Connie that we have this and the public didn't and we said and we said we would have them ready for tonight, is that what you are referring to? MS. GOEDERT-Must be, he must have got his Monday night by.. COUNCILMAN PULVER-No. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-No, no we said we would have them ready for tonight. MS. GOEDERT-Well anyways, I can understand and you have to do what you have to do and that is why a lot of us are here and as far as several companies that they can mis-manage their truck fund money they spent it on other things ok, they said they cannot do that in their contracts but they have done that. I have a problem with this because I belong to an organization and I feel that in speaking only in reference to my own organization I think we are of an elite group and I think that our contract and our dealings and our, have been nothing but up front. I see that Mr. Caimano, counts himself as an accountant or at least an accountant trained person and that's dealing with funds and budgets and everything but when he gets down to the fact that he is talking about the companies dealing with funds he calls us squirrels in that we hord money. Well we have accountants and account trained people in our organization. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-What do you call it when you put money away, Mike? MR. MCCARTHY-I am not going to bite on that one. MS. GOEDERT-And Betty I am very concerned with the fact that the last thing that you said to the group of people that were in this room and left because we thought that the whole thing was over with, shame on us for being so stupid, was listen emergency services up here the Town Board is down here the Town Board has cut to the bear bone quote unquote and we need to meet in the middle. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-When I said the middle I wasn't taking that to mean literally you know, you take 100 you take zero.. MS. GOEDERT -..Y ou have to be taken literally you are sitting in a position where you are taken literally. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I am also doing my hands though and my hands were like this. MS. GOEDERT-Whatever we are up here you are down here you cut to the bear bones and we have to meet somewhere in the middle, let me finish and then in this statement where Carol feels that they did their job and they did it right and through negotiations and she is a taxpayer and she is a politician and she is a representative of the Town and she is a mother which we all are too and we all represent the Town maybe not in the official capacity that she does and that we cut these and we were right in what we are doing and you agreed with her. You sent two messages. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Wait a minute... COUNCILMAN PUL VER-...I would never jeopardize fire and emergency service as a mother. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I do not know what you are referring to and I would have to read that. MS. GOEDERT-I have it highlighted here and COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-And whether or not I agreed with her speech or her final sentence that we would not jeopardize the service is what I think I agreed with, Connie... MS. GOEDERT-You have a whole paragraph here and what I am saying is that you are saying that you can't take this verbally or literally and that is the way it is taken. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-You know, that is always, wait a minute MS. GOEDERT-Your statement ... for years I have put up with you saying don't start with the Cadillacs and you know I have been here for years you have been here for year. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Connie I hate to tell you this but I have heard Firemen and EMS people who will not do it publicly but have said to me personally because they know I will not do names and they think I need the information I think that piece of equipment was an over built or over done piece of equipment. Now, that is all I can tell you. MS. GOEDERT-I don't really care that tells me nothing. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-If they are here they won't say it I can guarantee that. MS. GOEDERT-What I do say though is ... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I agree you have heard people in this microphone beat up on North Queensbury for the fire house I have defended it and I mean this stuff all the while. MS. GOEDERT-You just made a statement of fifteen minute dissertation before that is about the fire houses that they have and the fire trucks that they have that will go parade anywhere and that is what I am taking from your statement literally, Betty. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I said that they buildings that they can be proud of and they have equipment that they can be proud of and that it does the job, now. MS. GOEDERT-My other concern would be to ...1 think I have the floor...you make these statement in this thing and it goes to the public but we are not suppose to pay any attention to it because that is not the way COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I do not care how much attention you pay to it. MS. GOEDERT-It is your minutes to your meeting. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Excuse me, I just want to say, Monday night I listen to Firemen say things that they had their slant on I did not always agree with their slant but I did not want to get into any kind of an adversarial position because I do not think it is worthy of doing. What I am saying to everybody is, we have got some negotiation to do we need to come in and do it and get the best product we can do. MS. GOEDERT-What I am saying to you Betty is, the fact that you are saying that there is negotiations that have to be made and in this thing of Monday night you guys are saying you are right on board and you are not telling, you are saying the public is not getting our side of it that is in here but you are only hearing their side of it we do not want to do any slamming contests, but we are still not getting the other side of the story. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Connie, I guess I do not where you are coming from I really don't. SUPERVISOR CHAMP AGNE-I don't know where this conversation is going Connie, really. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I don't really know where you are coming from and what the comments are in the budget. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Yes, Sir. MR. DAVID HATIN-My name is Dave Hatin I live in Robert Gardens South Member of Queensbury Central and also a taxpayer. Betty I do not know if you can answer this question better than anybody, or Fred perhaps you are the person to address this question to. In our budget there is a sixty six thousand dollar difference between what you proposed to us and what we proposed to you. Betty has made a statement there are certain things in that budget that you did not include in that $321,000, perhaps to speed up some things for negotiations that will occur in the future what are those items that you do not want to pay for, I guess that is a big question I know in our organization is what do you feel out of what we submitted line item by line item that you do not want to pay for? It does us no good to sit down with our people and say we are going to go to the Board and negotiate this and say this is why we want it if you are the mind set right now that you do not want to pay for it. I think it would all save us a lot of time are there items in those budgets that you have seen that you do not wish to pay for? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I suppose but we may not, that is why we asked the question before of Paul and then John was up here and we talked again. If we do it from that stand point then the criticism could be and rightfully so that we do not know what we are cutting. If on the other hand we give you a number and you say wait a minute and you come in and you say in any particular line item we need all of this and we need all of this because then that's the justification, that is all the justification we need. To go from the other way we have said, look we think we can afford only X amount of dollars we have cut and we would be glad to when we sit down when ever it is we sit down and say we cut this line by $500 dollars and that line by a $1000 we would be glad to do that but I would rather that you would come back and say look all of these line items that we have here these are the ones I need 100% of this I need 100% of this I can give away 25% of this but it got to come from you. You are the one that is operating, I have said time and time agaIn... MR. HATIN-But there is no particular item that you are not willing to talk about or not willing to negotiate on I guess, COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- There's what? MR. HA TIN-There is no particular item that was presented to you in line item budgets that you are not willing to negotiate on. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-...everything on your budget but no. MR. HATIN-We came up with a $66,000 difference Nick and I am just trying to figure out how the Board arrived. .. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-66 between what? MR. HATIN-Queensbury Central we submitted 437 you came back to us with 321 if you add the truck fund back in there I believe there is a 66,000 dollar difference. Obviously you look at things differently then we did what did you look at differently is there certain items I guess that you do not feel that we need or you do not feel that you want to hear about? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I am sure there is and I am sure that each one of the five of us has a different, a different slant on it, but without seeing, without having that in front of us and saying ok, that item that you have on line five which is I do not know, what ever it is I did not agree with that and Carol didn't agree with this part of it and all of us did not agree with this part we, first of all we do not have it in front of us, we would be talking out of our ear. MR. HATIN-Ijust thought that maybe it was something that would stick out in your mind? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-There wasn't a line item that went right across five companies that we said it should not be in there. No, it was different things with each company. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Well there was, there were things to be very honest with you, there were things, there were things like the office supplies, there was a how do I say this, there is a word I am trying to use and I am too tried to think about, there was a symmetry to all of you and I do not mean that you all got together, but there way a symmetry to what you asked for office supplies, well that does not make a lot of sense because your total budget each of you has a total budget that's not the same and each of you has a group of people that work in your company you have a a lot of people, Queensbury North does not have a lot of people so if you are both asking for essentially the same amount of office supplies that raises a question which we talked about. So, if there is one that was across all five that is one. Radio's was another that we talked about. COUNCILMAN PULVER-That one was across all five but also we did not just cut it we looked at everyone's past spending and truly those with the more, more members and more runs or what ever uses more paper had more office supplies. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Most of our numbers came, most of our numbers that we came down to came from what evidence we had of what you actually had spent in the past. In many, many cases and I can't and if you ask me how many I cannot tell you but in many, many cases the number requested had no connection with the number actually used over the last year or two years. That is all we had to go on. MR. HATIN-So, that is how you arrived at those figures. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Mainly that is how we arrived at them. MR. HATIN-I think that will help our people who will be meeting... SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I think another example and Brian and help me with this one too, it is my understanding that you had in the budget originally that we were going to up grade or improve upon the heating system where you get instant re-heat ok MR. LAFLURE-To cut our gas bill. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-We, I believe that we can say this that from the Board's position as we discussed it that it might be in our best interest to put that off for another year and in trying to look at the total cost trying to look at the fixed cost which would be obviously the truck funding and the facility mortgage money we are looking at some of those pay offs that is when some of these other issues that we are talking about could come in play. So, that rather than maybe holding it at this level there may be starting at this point even an increased decline, I do not know, I need to sit down with you one more time when these things can be discussed to a greater depth than what they have been. I guess that is how I perceive it. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I do not want anybody to think though that we took anybodies budget and did not treat it as an individual budget we did not look at any line items and say everybody gets a 10% cut on this no matter what they came in with first we did not treat it that way. MR. HATIN-Ijust wondered if there were some specific items that you don't feel that the Town should pay for. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I think we have gone about as far a we can go with that. MR. HATIN-That was my general question. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well specific items we felt that it had to be related firemanics you know, I can remember one that a fire company told me years ago when Dr. Eisenhart was here and this is a simple one, they wanted fancier lettering on their fire truck and they said but we are not taking that out of the town funds, because wanted the real fancy letter we are doing that out of our donations, kind of like that type of thing. MR. HATIN-Two more quick questions if you can indulge me. Fred is there any reason why the Town tax and I am talking the Town tax that the taxpayer pays was it 19 cents per thousand is there any reason why that cannot be eliminated this year? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-How would you eliminate it? MR. HATIN-I guess we are looking at $282,000 for the COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-288 MR. HATIN-to be raised by tax dollars in surplus you will have over a million I believe left, is there any reason why money can be taken off surplus to eliminate that tax entirely? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-If we are not fiscally responsible we could do it. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-We are supposed to keep a million dollars as we have been told a million dollars as a minimum. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-And that does not cover emergencies. MR. HA TIN - I understand that.. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-To do what you want to do would take us out of that realm, that doesn't mean that we could not operate we would operate at a different level but I do not know if the State would let us do that. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Dave you know there is another answer to that too and I will just speak from being serving on a lot of different administrations. ok. Try to keep the tax level, tax rate fairly level, we could put it right down to here one year and bounce it right up there the next year but I think that is awfully hard on a person who cannot control their own income that much to have their taxes fluxate so what we have tried to do on any administration I have served is to try and hold that fairly level by using your surpluses when in a bad year when, like one year our sales tax came in $25,000 under what we had in revenues that had to be made up some place or our departments had to cut their expenses. Those are the kinds of things that we try to do to keep not impose an undue burden on the taxpayers. You know when you would really be imposing those kinds of burdens really is probably in the years when people are worried about their jobs, unemployment is high because then you are not having good sales tax come in and that kind of stuff, that is a year that if we did not do this you would have to jump those taxes where there would be a terrible burden on the people. MR. HATIN-Ijust wondered if they could be reduced or eliminated entirely, that was my question. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-They could if we wanted to, take those kinds of risks. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-You may have to go out and borrow money though when you find yourself.. . MR. HA TIN - I just wondered if the Board had looked at that, that is all. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yes, we looked very closely at how much we took out of the applied out of the surplus fund and I wonder if we took too much. MR. HATIN-My third question and I guess I come to you as an employee now, there has been a lot of discussion about raises around the town hall obviously what went through the evaluation this year, has the Town Board come up with a figure for salaried employees as far what the raises will be? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Not at this point. MR. HATIN-Percentage or anything. COUNCILMAN PULVER-We are still negotiating with the Union too. MR. HATIN-But that does not effect myself and several other people in the Town Hall. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It only effects as there is a ping pong effect. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- The answer is no. MR. HATIN-The answer is no, ok. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-We have to kind of really look at both of them simultaneously. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-OK. Now, Yes Sir. MR. CHRIS CONINE-My name is Chris Conine, I live on Montray Road. I am not here to represent the fire company in any way and a couple of things in the beginning. I was here Monday night and I would like to support some of the non-profits that were here, actually a majority of them. Also, I like Connie, believe you people deserve a raise because for the amount of money you get I would not do any where's near the amount of work you do. Although I do, do nearly the amount of work you do, doing what I do here for the fire company. One thing Mrs. Monahan, you keep mentioning is the fact that, as you looked at the numbers of the fire companies the services, the services would not be effected. Something you said they have the buildings and they have the equipment, and unfortunately it is not the buildings or the equipment that do the job it is personnel with those departments. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-And when I said that I included, you know I should have included if! didn't, if I did not make that plain your protective gear and I think I also said anything the effected your safety or the safety of the people in this community. MR. CONlNE-1 think there is something that you are overlooking and that is training and, let me finish, as you go on, as I look at it and the way the budget is set up and I know that when we requested our budget it was requested because the plans for the future in up grading equipment and also obviously the needed expenses. But, I think if Queensbury Central for one took the cut that you people have proposed thus far it would require us because I know for a fact that the way our operation runs we need the amount of money, almost the, in my opinion we need the amount of money or more then we asked for. But, in essence my opinion is the service would be effected because in order to do the job the way we want to do it, we would obviously have to raise more funds as a gentlemen here suggest here tonight between fund raisers and what not and I do not know if you people know it or not and I am sure some of you have an appreciation for it and we also volunteer a lot of time. I have a projection for our department that we will volunteer 8800 man hours this year. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-There is no doubt about it. MR. CONINE-When you volunteer that much time just to train and drill and go to calls that projection that I gave you doesn't even count the amount of time we even spend planning drills the budget, people doing the budget stuff and the board people doing the board stuff and the firemen just hanging around. When you spend the amount of time, I know our department for one spends I do not think there is anymore room for fund raising. When it comes just to our letter campaign it is an incredible draw on the whole department to try and get fitted in and we end up having to fit that in during drill time. Also, the amount of time that we spend in drill is spent actually working trying to better ourselves and trying to improve the way we work with our equipment and find what equipment works for us best. I would also like to make the point here to all of you that though you might not believe it or might not know it every purchase that goes through our department and I have been on both sides of the ship as far as trying to make purchases fly through the department they get scrutinized very much in our company meetings. I know that I have personally on the wrong end of it and also the right end of it, I think the public might be getting the opinion from you people that we are fiscally irresponsible, that might be the case with some departments and I don't personally think it is but I think like our treasurer said you have to look at it on a case by case basis. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Absolutely, and you know one does not sit at a meeting like this and talk about specific items ok, or specific the way things are being done. As far as I am concerned I feel as I have on previous Town Board's that anything that is firemanic related should be 100% Town funded. When they are not firemanic related then perhaps that is when people do give you donations and things like that perhaps, where that is where those should come from and these are items that I think we will be discussing. MR. CONINE-Ok. Thanks for the time. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you. We have some first timers over here. MS. MICHAEL MERLOW-Hi, I am Michael Merlow I live on the Boulevard in Queensbury. I agree with one thing that Connie had stated, you sit here and you tell us and you explain things and we have minutes to Monday nights meeting where we were all here and then you dispute what is in writing after we all listened to it and we are reading it. Mr. Caimano, I have a question for you. In the minutes from Monday it stated here it was fun I hope that we have another listening session on Wednesday, but Carol is right you only heard one side of it. We did not hear anything returned from you other than you took each different department separately, ok, that is fine. To go on with this, you only heard on side and there is no sense in getting into a smashing contest. Ok. In the same paragraph you go on to you lived in the district, you have been here for 16 years the service is not any better it is not any worse your account trained person there is literally one company out of business they just don't know enough to roll over, if that is not smashing what IS. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Did I mention anybody? MS. MERLOW-Ifit is not smashing departments what is? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Did I mention anybody? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Yes. MR. LEWIS STONE-Lewis Stone, No. Queensbury. I just want, I have been listening here all evening and there has obviously there has been some very interesting discussion I have heard a Board that is willing to listen, I have heard a Board that says come to us and we will sit and talk and that is all we can ask of the Board. Your job is to get to listen to all the citizens, your job is to get the most for the buck that we are spending, to look hard at the job. You certainly have expressed willingness to do that and I commend you. I would also just, like to throw my support to support for the non-profit organizations, but continue to do the good job you are doing and certainly I will watch with interest as to how this thing comes out. Thank you. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you. MR. DICK GOEDERT-I am learning something, my name is Dick Goedert, I live on Centennial Drive, I am also the treasurer of the West Glens Falls Emergency Squad. I now know that $275,000 in contingent funds is a beer budget. I learned that. Am I supposed to have in our budget a contingency fund because I do not have that line item in mine. I do not have a contingency fund line item, no. I honestly did not know we should put that in there do you think that is something we should have in there? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-My opinion would be it may not show in there as a contingency item but my guess is, having been through the budgeting as long as you have been and the very fine work that you do, do with that budget that your management maybe is such that you may not need it. In our particular case, you know as I indicated earlier, as I indicated earlier, our risk out there if you will maybe somewhat greater than yours. MR. GOEDERT-I know that we have a risk, I am not sure what it is. Are we still looking at full funding? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-What does that mean? MR. GOEDERT-That is a good question, what does that mean, full funding is the line items that normally would be funded by the Town is the guide lines that we were given back in 89 lets say, those were the line items the specific line items that would be funded by the Town if we needed to purchase them. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I do not know of any line items that were cut, totally, I do not know that, I have not got your stuff in front of me so I do not know. MR. GOEDERT-So, the only cutting that you did was if you felt that we did not need to purchase a radio that would be one area you cut, when you were making your decisions. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I am not saying that was one of them but if that was one of them, yes. I cannot remember all of the things that went into yours. If tlIat was one of them that was right. MR. GOEDERT-So, full funding is quasi questionable, right? Another area that concerns me greatly and we have not even talked about it tonight, is not only the money but also what about the wording in the contract that concerns me a great deal? As the budget officer I do budget transfers to keep things in line so I know right where I am at, is there any problem with that? COUNCILMAN PUL VER-I do not know, I have not read the contracts. MR. GOEDERT-Do you have any idea when the contract will be ready? COUNCILMAN PULVER-Another week or so maybe? ATTORNEY PAUL DUSEK-I handed it out to the Board. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yea, we have them. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-We have a draft copy of it and you are welcome to that, it is public stuff it came out... COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-When did you give it to us? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It was in with the new accounting procedures, we had it about a week. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-But anyway there is a draft copy now when you came into my office this had not been produced since that time in the last two or three days we now have a copy and there is no reason why you cannot have a copy, the draft copy of the new draft copy. MR. GOEDERT-Of the new draft copy. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-We have been going through a number of draft copies so... MR. GOEDERT-Items 14 through 19 are now filled in? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Not necessarily, no. Maybe 14 and 15 might... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Wait a minute...the new accounting procedures are a part of it, that has been a part of it, this is now with this draft that has been done. MR. GOEDERT-That is done. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Yes. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-You give me a call tomorrow and if you can make it out here I will have a copy for you. Is there anyone else here that would... MR. GOEDERT-Because we have not met since we met once with the accountant we have not met since. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Well we were trying MR. GOEDERT-to hear any outcome as to what we are doing or how we are doing. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-This is a draft copy. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-And I agree with you, and we have been pressing the accountant to get that to us and I think we got it sometime last week or early this week. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-I saw mine for the first time tuesday, what is today, thursday, wednesday, I do not know. MR. GOEDERT-Did Paul put that contract together? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Pardon me? MR. GOEDERT-Did Mr. Dusek put the contract together? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-We did, but he did. MR. GOEDERT-Paul, in the contract is there anything about budget transfers? ATTORNEY DUSEK-I recall a provision in the contract addressing transfers between budget lines I think it said my recollection is that there is a provision of some kind saying approval by the fire company would have to submit something to the Town Board when they did that. It did not prohibit it but I think there was some sort of a review procedure put in there. I do not remember the exact wording at this point but there was some language in there. MR. GOEDERT-Is the EMS contract the same way? ATTORNEY DUSEK-Yes. MR. GOEDERT-Ok. So, if we wanted to buy something more in office supplies and we had to transfer funds we would have to come before you and ask to do that? SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Was there an amount in there? ATTORNEY DUSEK-The only thing I should say and this should be clear on the record the contract that was submitted was a draft based on the discussions I had with the Board so that is why it went out to them and in fact it is underlined and there are things that are bracketed to be taken out, so COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It is not the final contract, really. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-So, why don't you come in tomorrow and seriously and get a copy and then put it in writing or the best way you can get it back to us and .... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-We have not approve it yet. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-I have not seen it yet. MR. GOEDERT-You want us to wait then. That is all part of our negotiations, I really felt badly, I have done negotiations before and usually negotiations go along where two sides meet and before it goes out to the press we come to some sort of agreement, if we can't then you are at impasse, and if you are at impasse then it goes out to the press and then we deal with it then. We at West Glens Falls met with the Town part of the Town Board twice once, to explain our budget and once to re-explain our budget, and the only area that was of any concern was the office supplies. We had like 1200 dollars in there for office supplies it was a question of do you put pencils under office supplies or is it part of the ambulance when you are doing runs? It is just a question of budgeting where you put it. Also the Town firm that was hired by the Town for our accounting is that going to be ready for December? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-As far as I know it is. MR. GOEDERT-We have not hear word one back on that yet. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-You will. MR. GOEDERT -And have they met with all the eight agencies? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO- There is the man, ask. MR. MCCARTHY-I believe that there has been meetings I am not the person in the firm doing it, but I believe that the meetings have been begun, I am not sure that they have met with everybody yet but a draft of the report has been given to Paul and SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-That is part of the contract, that is all part of the contract. MR. GOEDERT -Ok. One of my last questions will be what is in the Town budget for office supplies? MS. DUBOIS-That is split out by department and ... MR. GOEDERT -Just pick like the Supervisor's Office? I am not expecting you to go to each department. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-He does not have one office I do not think the Supervisor has office supplies... SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-They come out of the general office supplies, that handles.. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-There is a general central office supply that handles, you know, for instance somebody like Planning and Zoning, loads and loads of paper that they use. MR. GOEDERT-I am not talking about that, the Supervisor's Office must have office supplies. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-It is not split out, because it is not the way State Audit and Control, there is a central supply. We bid those out as a central type of a bid. MR. GOEDERT-Ok. So, it should be easy to find then, on the general fund what is the office supply item? UNKNOWN-The Town Justice is $1500. TOWN CLERK DOUGHER-You made a comment about the Town Justice, that is not really an accurate figure because they do take part of their supplies from us, and we do not charge them, it is under the general, that is not a true and accurate figure of all they spend. $13,000... COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-13,OOO in the general fund, Darleen? TOWN CLERK-That is for the central store room, that is all your computer paper, your pencils, your pens, your everything. MR. GOEDERT-What was the 90, the previous years expenditures? MS. DUBOIS-94's? To date we have spent $8,137.59. MR. GOEDERT -Keep going over to the next line what was the amount that was spent the prior year? MS. DUBOIS-We spent $12,023.46. MR. GOEDERT-That is similar to how we prepared our budget we did the same idea as to we engaged what we spent the previous year where we are spending things now and where we are at, so ok, that answered by question. When you looked over the paper work for West Glens Falls Emergency I take my job very seriously and I would like to know if there is any indication from our department where we mis- managed any of the corporate funds? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Any what? MR. GOEDERT-Any of our squad funds, our truck funds, do we ear mark our truck fund properly was there any complaints along that line? COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-As far as we could see it was. MR. GOEDERT-Ok. I just want to be sure of that, because we make sure that we do things properly and the impression that I get when you make out a statement and you do not name anybody why it kind of throws a cloud over all of us, and we did not do anything. Thank you. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-We have been around now for the first time, everyone has had the opportunity COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-He doesn't... MR. GARY LOCKREY-My name is Gary Lockrey from Western Avenue and I wanted to thank all the participants here tonight and the last two nights here, it has been a real education for me I have only been back home here about three years and it has been a good catch up on what is going on in the community. I appreciate the articulate spokesman on all the fire companies and also the programs presented before us here and I am really confident because of the thinking people that we have here that these issues will be resolved here in the next couple of weeks. I do appreciate the work of the board in seeking the best value for our tax dollars. I request that the Board Members track the time that they spend on town business between January and September of next year and report that to the public during the budget hour time so that the people get a better appreciation for our per hour rate of your service. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-You are just going to add another hour to my week for doing that. MR. LOCKREY -Yea, maybe, well, I think that would be helpful if it could be possible. Anyway concerning the non-profit organization, I do support the good works of these organizations but before you can give to them you must take and you must take from the taxpayers and I think that all the comments that we had especially on Monday night alluded to one theme and that as that the Queensbury funding to the non-profit organizations is irreplaceable it is not irreplaceable many more of the non-profit organizations in this area receive no tax payer funding as a foreinstance the Mohican Council Boy Scouts of America is about 60,000 dollars short on their funding for this year and they are not here asking that we the taxpayers cover their short fall. I am confident that the Board will also remember the Article 8 Section 1 of the New York State Constitution that says quote No County, City, Town, Village of School District shall give or loan any money or property to or in aid of any individual or private corporation or association of private undertaking. That is the will and intent of the citizens of New York as expressed in our constitution. I am confident that our Board will act on this issue in accordance with the Law and with the will of the people and in the best interests of our citizens. Thank you. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Paul would you care to respond to that about the law I do not want people to think that we are not disbursing Town money properly. ATTORNEY DUSEK-I think certainly that was a correct reading of the constitution in terms of what I just heard, however I have to stress that that indicates give you certainly have the right to contract for services provided for any organization including not for profit organizations. There is specifically certain sections of State law that actually provides for you know these monies to go out, foreinstance in the case of the VFW is a good example where in the State law they have got right down the exact amount of money that you can contribute up to. Youth programs are authorized under the General Municipal Law, Senior Citizen programs are authorized under the General Municipal Law. The Town under the Town law is authorized to spend money for the cultural improvement of people including having things such as band concerts, if that is what the Town chose to do. So, there are a number of laws that do provide that you can contract for the types of services, foreinstance Crandall Library is a service a museum is a service to its people, each of these you can contract to have those services made available to the public is you feel that, that is appropriate expenditure of the funds and if you haver the proper contracting place. So, I think you have to be careful between giving money away and contracting, certainly you cannot gift money away but you certainly can contract for a service. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Ok. Everyone else has been through one time, John. MR. JOHN SAL V ADORE-There has been much discussion here tonight about contingency and I think we are lead to believe that the State encourages you to maintain a contingency, I think however it is a limitation on how much you can carry rather than a requirement, well there is a big difference. So, you should not exceed a certain amount you can go from zero to that amount depending on what you are dealing with. Now, you have primarily administrative functions that you perform they are not difficult to forecast in their costs. In all of these things like the roof blowing off you should not put in there because you will find a way to spend them before the year is out. If the roof blows off we will take care of that when it happens if it happens. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-What is the percentage that we are allowed to take, you mentioned it a minute ago. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-1O% am I right is that 10% contingency up to? MR. SALVADORE-Earlier this evening one of the Gentlemen came to the mic and asked the question, who is complaining with regard to emergency services and fire services and the tax therefore, on January 24th of this year I wrote Fred Champagne this letter and I would like to quote from it if! could. I believe the long term interest of the Town might best be served by the Town Board's initiation of a comprehensive study of the emergency services presently being contracted by the Town. Such a comprehensive study might address the issues of Town volunteer staff departments versus private volunteer companies, consolidation of emergency services from personnel to equipment including buildings, the fact that major facilities in our community are exempt from fire and EMT taxes such as the Warren County Airport the Municipal Center the Adirondack Community College, Inter State 87, State owned land in the Adirondack Park, third party payment for emergency services for ambulance and fire response, gearing the fire tax district, gearing the fire district tax to the risk to fire loss, pay for structures not for land over valued vacant land and lake shore frontage. Fire taxing districts versus single town wide taxing district and fire company consolidation. I am sure there are other factors to be considered in an effort to control the run away costs are present approach is experiencing and can not help but continue to experience in the future. People are complaining, I will give you this copy of this letter. As you go forward and revise this budget, I would like to remind you of one, something one of the founding fathers said, I think it was Benjamin Franklin, he said when the people learn they can vote themselves money it will be the end of the republic. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thank you. Now where are we, anyone else out there? Are we all done and all in? Mr. Brian. MR. BRIAN LAFLURE-This will be easy. I have a couple of things and I, it is too bad Betty isn't here because I wanted to address it to her. COUNCILMAN CAIMANO-Where did she go? COUNCILMAN PULVER-She probably just went to the ladies room. MR. BRIAN LAFL URE- I am sure she did and she deserves that. One of the things that gets brought up every time we come to one of these meetings and I am sure it is not done purposely but it aggravates me like finger nails on a black board, that is when the comparison, here she comes now, we are not talking about you Betty, you can come in, we are just talking about what you said. I started out one of the things that aggravates me and I know you do not do it purposely is when we discuss the tax rate itself it always somehow comes out the statement is made that the fire tax is so much greater than the town tax, I know in the real world as it appears on your tax bill the 28 cents or whatever it is for the town and the dollar something for fire tax anyone with a brain can see that those two number are different. What it really should reflect if you are going to have that discussion people have the impression that it costs so much more to run the fire companies than it does to run the town, remember that your total Town General Fund Budget what it costs to operate without the special districts is a much greater number but it is off set by sales tax dollars and the other monies that you receive. We all understand that monies that paid for out of the fund balance and the tax dollars that are received it just bothers me when the statement is made that it cost so much more for emergency services in this Town than it does to run everything else. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-Brian if you listened earlier tonight I think I want through that when I said when you look at the Town Tax the Town General fund remember that about one third of that is paid out of sales tax dollars. MR. LAFLURE-I do not recall hearing that Betty. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-But, I did. MR. LAFLURE-Ok, but we hear that statement and that bothers me. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I did make that statement. MR. LAFL URE- The other thing that I see is I hear a lot of discussion and I have tried to listen and not talk so much, as we talk about negotiating these budgets we all seem to fall back to the same question. Your definition of firemanic and non firemanic and perhaps our definition of firemanic and non firemanic, Betty you have mention that a hundred times and rightly so you only want to pay for firemanic items. We agree as I made in my statement Monday night, we have two very distinct accounting systems, one is fire manic and one is non firemanic I think that perhaps the question is interpretation we need a definite list or a reading or whatever you want to call it, maybe perhaps call the five fire companies together and then the three squads together what are your line items what are the things you use and are they firemanic or non firemanic then your questions about whether this item is firemanic or non firemanic then it is just a matter of taking a calculator add up the firemanic items and that is your budget, you add up the non firemanic items and there is something else it is up to the local organizations through their fund raising or whatever terms they use to come up with that money. I think that is important. We are a group know for a fact no more than you would ask Paul Naylor to have his guys stand on a street comer to collect money to put fuel in his highway trucks or whatever is necessary we know that is ridiculous COUNCILMAN MONAHAN-I do not think anybody wants you to. MR. LAFLURE-I understand, let me finish my thought. The people in the Town know that in their tax dollars they pay for a service, and that is exactly what we do, we provide a service to the residents of the Town the only difference between us and Paul Naylor's people or any of the rest of the people that work for the Town of Queensbury is that we do not get paid. As far as the operational part of it no more than you would expect Paul Naylor to provide his own car or for the Town Highway to fix his own plow truck and pay for the light bulb himself on it everyone would say that is ridiculous that is part of operating the highway, the same thing happens with fire. So, I think if we come up with a legitimate all, everybody say ok, here is the item, here is what is included in your contract, this is what isn't in your contract, then when we come down to you guys saying you know, we have looked at your budget these are the items you can or cannot do, we took this item out because it is not included. Fine. Then lets all work from the same list though so that I do not make a fool of myself asking for something that you feel is not firemanic yet I do, lets work from the same list, lets do it the same way and then we will avoid sessions like this that have consumed so much of our time. Thank you. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-We are getting there Brian, aren't we, together aren't we getting there? MR. LAFLURE-Yes, we are. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Yes, we are. Thank you. COUNCILMAN DR. R. GEORGE WISW ALL-Brian, I would like to tell you one thing, when I came on this Board I suggested that the fire tax be broken down for fire and for EMS so it would appear that way on our tax bill, because people don't realize when they pay their fire tax that they are paying for the emergency squad as well. Fred has taken that to the County and I do not whether, is that going to happen this next year. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-We did not have time to put it all in place by January but it will be there for school tax, separated out, is that what you are saying? COUNCILMAN WISW ALL-Yea, on our tax bill would be broken down so we would know what .... MR. LAFL URE-Suggestion we had made was to either list it twice or if it was easier to just change the verbiage to emergency services tax as compared to fire tax so the people understood what they were really paymg. COUNCILMAN WISW ALL-Well, it would be better if it was broken down, then they would understand. MR. LAFLURE-That is fine with us. COUNCILMAN WISW ALL-And also I would like to say Brian if you and I could be appointed as a pair to get together we could settle this in about fifteen minutes. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-Thanks George. Are we all done and in at this point it is about twenty five minutes to twelve and, I am sorry, excuse me. MR. JOHN OWENS-Everybody said everything I want to say except for one possible new thought for next year in doing your budgets, John Owens Assembly Point, what I just handed out to you is the billing form from the Town of Colonie, theoretically based upon additional whatever division you are looking at roughly $175.00 a call conservative this is for EMS for BLS, ALS combined whatever, it is actually ALS is obviously higher, depending on what you do and what drugs you have. This is all the techniques that you do down in Colonie, everything is listed. You are looking at per thousand calls you are looking at $175,000 that would off set your EMS budget, make you guys look pretty good. I suggest you really consider this and just don't sit there and give us the same answer every year that well, we do not think the Town is ready for this, it is easy it's third party billing. It is done through another agency, I do not think it is done within the Town of Colonie, they hire out to some other organization to do it. They take their five, ten percent off the top they hand the Town of Colonie the money. We do down in the Town of Colonie about 8,000 to 9,000 calls a year so you can see how much money it generates. We have the best equipment we have got the best personnel we have got partial paid we have partial part time and we have volunteers. I do not know if the entire, if that money coming in that seven thousand runs a year if that money pays for everything but gee it is got to put an awful dent in it. Now, another part of this is, I asked some of the people down in the Town, I said what is your percentage of collections on this and they told me over 90%. I am not sure exactly what the figure was but I heard it was over 90%. Third party billing what they do is they bill the insurance company of the person that uses our services. If on insurance, if an individual patient does not have insurance then they are sent one letter, a collection letter, one letter, period. If an uninsured person doesn't pay there is no follow up bill, you take it from there. But, I think this is serious income that you people are missing out on and the Town's people are missing out on and if you really want to save anything in the EMS budgets and so forth maybe this is the way of off setting it and not making us suffer in the process. Thank you. SUPERVISOR CHAMPAGNE-John before you leave I would just like to get together for a moment after we close here with our Attorney because we have been discussing this and there is some concern, maybe you could help me answer that. MR. OWENS-I want you to understand something, and in the first place I work down there and I am at the lowest end of the ladder, I have worked down there for two years, I work one day a week. So, I may not have all the information but I have asked a bunch of questions, just so you understand that. SUPERVISOR CHAMP AGNE- That is fine, that is good. Thank you. Now, where are we? Call it a good night, Thank you very much for your input, see you again a year from now, I hope. Respectfully submitted, Miss Darleen Dougher Town Clerk