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2003-07-22 SP SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 434 Special Town Board Meeting JULY 22, 2003 7:00 p.m. MTG. #31 RES. 347 TOWN BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT SUPERVISOR DENNIS BROWER COUNCILMAN ROGER BOOR COUNCILMAN THEODORE TURNER COUNCILMAN DANIEL STEC COUNCILMAN TIM BREWER MEMBERS OF THE RECREATION COMMISSION CHAIRMAN DOUGLAS IRISH Supervisor Brower-We are going to open the Town Board Meeting tonight it is a Special Town Board Meeting it is July 22, 2003, the Town Board is meeting with the Recreation Commission. We did rescind the resolution last evening for the previous resolution we had passed. I did get another inquiry today, official inquiry in a black folder which I will give you after the meeting. Rec. Chairman Irish-I did not get copies of those other ones either. Supervisor Brower-I will give you all of them. From Adirondack Construction actually, they Vic Macri but it was... Rec. Chairman Irish-He did send me an e-mail, but it was I take that back he did mail me a copy of this. Supervisor Brower-I think you will find there maybe a lot of other potential bidders that once an RFP goes out I think you will be impressed. I hope you do not take it negatively, I just think it is the right thing to do. You might even save some money, you do not know. I do not think saving money is the objective, I think the objective is getting the best consultant that is possible. Rec. Member-As I said last time Dennis, I think the thing was that in our haste the idea was that we did not want to drag our feet either. Knowing that we were trying to do this with the cooperation of ACC you know we were more looking at road blocks at that end and they have come through at least up to this point. We were just trying to keep the ball rolling. I think that was the idea to lets keep this going and then we will worry about getting a full time consultant for next year. You know this will probably work out in the long run, it is going to set us back but it probably would have anyway. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 435 Rec. Member-Explain to me the time frame. I do not understand the time sequence that is here. You said it will set us back, what a month, two months? Rec. Chairman Irish-Probably it is going to be, unless they have a special election longer than that because we want to put it to referendum. There is a time requirement to get that on the ballot... I think it is thirty or it is a weird number, thirty three days or something. Rec. Member-So, when ever we decide on what we are doing, then it is thirty days and it goes into a referendum. Rec. Chairman Irish-Right. Rec. Member-Doesn't it take quite a while before your consultant gives you the information and you hire an architect and have draft plans? Months that is what I thought. Rec. Chairman Irish-I do not think it makes a lot of sense to spend a lot of money on a special election for that particular part of it, we recognize that it is going to take the time to do it, put the time into it get the people in place that are going to help us and look at 2004 instead of paying for a special election for a referendum. Supervisor Brower-Are you going to do alternatives? Are you going to give people alternative choices? Rec. Chairman Irish-What we would like to see and we discussed it a little bit was to put together like a bear bones project and then give them maybe a couple of different things. We are thinking that even if we do not put, Jake and Harry won't want to hear this. We are talking about an ice rink whether it is ... Rec. Member-Excuse me, you said, what did you just say, we have been talking about it? Who is we? Rec. Chairman Irish-We mentioned it in Commission meetings and you guys have both voiced your opinion that you are not in favor of it. Rec. Member-If I remember right you were in favor of just an out door covered rink, right? Rec. Member-Yes. Rec. Chairman Irish-We would like to put together a proposal that includes that and say if you want it, this is what it is going to cost or SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 436 you can vote on this project, this is what that will cost. We would like to give them a couple different options. Supervisor Brower-Why would you want an ice rink when you got a double ice rink going up in Lake George right now, which is a convention center. Rec. Chairman Irish-We do not know yet, we are not throwing anything out at this point. Rec. Member-They are down to one now, it is not a double rink it is a single. Supervisor Brower-It is one now? Rec. Member-It was originally proposed for a double and they said that they could not do that. But still you are right, if Lake George wasn't doing it South Glens Falls, Moreau is considering it but we do not know whether than can pull that off. At the time we did not hear anything about Lake George we were still very unsure about Moreau and we hear, I have got some of the old surveys. The number one thing that people wanted in the surveys was an ice rink. Rec. Member-Queensbury School has entered into a contract with the Lake George Forum. Supervisor Brower-The other question I have got is has anyone on the Commission to date considered trying to find funding from other sources? Rec. Chairman Irish-Oh, yea, we have talked about whether we go to John Sweeney or whatever it is I do not know if we would qualify for any grants but we would be looking for funding sources. Supervisor Brower-Why wouldn't we? Rec. Chairman Irish-I don't know, I am just saying we will investigate th at. Councilman Brewer-Too much money in our surplus. Councilman Stec-That is what I would say. Rec. Chairman Irish-I do not know. We may be eligible through recreation or something. Rec. Member-I used to write grants and I was taught by a guy named Eliot Massey, it is interesting he just opened up his own center down in Saratoga now. But, one of the things that I looked at we got a grant that I wrote when I was at Syracuse Parks and Rec. I was a volunteer but we wrote that, it was basically like a counseling SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 437 program kind of like they do now with the midnight basketball people come in but they are actually working that out and then they connected with the kids. We wrote a grant for that almost thirty years ago, twenty seven years ago and that was like thirty thousand, fifty thousand dollars but it was a big deal back then. That was for a program and we used an existing building. That type of thing through the national, the Department of Interior has grants for recreational projects for trial development and all kinds of stuff. I do not know if we need to look into that, does the Town have somebody who writes grants? Supervisor Brower-We do not have a grant ... Councilman Boor-We do not have a department that specializes in th at. Supervisor Brower-Our Senior Planner has written grants successfully that is how she got the twenty five thousand for Quaker/Bay. Recreation Director Harry Hansen-We got a grant for Hudson River Park and that was eighty two thousand. The Department of Interior has been replaced with an organization called Heritage Parks and Recreation and that is where the grant, that and part of the Environmental Bond Act is where it came from in New York. They specify pretty much water projects though. It is kind of hard to get facilities anymore. It used to be available in multitudes in the 80's, late 80's but those days are kind of gone. Rec. Member-But we need to look into all those ... Recreation Director Hansen-There are some grant possibilities out there. Supervisor Brower-My hope would be that you could secure some grants and that would make the project more viable in the eyes of the taxpayers particularly because it would lower their potential... Rec. Member-Even if it was not for the building even if it was for equipping of the building. We might be able to say oh gee there, they have a special thing that you can equip pools or build locker rooms adjacent. There is all kinds of things, you never know what is out there you have got to look almost every day and see what organization is giving you these grants. Rec. Chairman Irish-There are probably some non-profits too that have grants available and we will have to look into it. Councilman Brewer-Aren't there certain companies I say this and know, like we did the grant for the housing in Ward 4 and they will write the grant at no charge if they administer the outcome of the grant. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 438 Director Hansen-Saratoga Associates is big on that. They will write a grant and they will not take anything until they get the grant? Councilman Brewer-What do they take, ten percent ... Director Hansen-The take a percentage... Rec. Member-They write themselves in as grant administrators and then they take a percentage of it. Councilman Brewer-Which isn't really a bad deal because if you are unsuccessful you don't owe anything but on the same hand if you do get the grant you got to have somebody administer it so .. Councilman Boor-That is what they do. Rec. Member-The other thing we talked about and he mentioned John Sweeney but I am in Church every Sunday Morning with Betty Little I have not hit her up yet but the idea was we talked about seeing if there was member items, but we did not want to do any of that stuff until we got a more formal proposal. We have at least a rough figure but it is very rough and say you know here is what we are looking at, Betty what can you do for us. Just kind of informally make a little dog and pony show presentation to her and then go from there and see if she can kind of muster up some funds out of the State. Councilman Brewer-Do we have some sort of a defined project? Rec. Member-No. Councilman Brewer-Is that what you are going hire this person to ... Rec. Member-Here is what we have defined so far at least between our committee and the committee with ACe. We are talking about gymnasium kind of like the blue gym at Queensbury School with maybe three basket ball courts, multi court gymnasium. Above which will likely be an elevated running track. We have look at a couple of them, I have looked at a couple of them, we have brought pictures some other people have seen them. People have said why don't you put the running track above the pool we found out that, that is not a good thing other places that have done that, there is the condensation and problems with the track. Probably right now we have settled on unless we hear something different, competition eight lane with a movable bulkhead and a diving well which is what we are looking at. We are looking at kind of glanderous stuff if it comes out way too much money we will probably going to have to dump some of that stuff like the diving well. Also, it was discussed, one of the other things they talked about again, we are supposed to go and look at a pool on the other side of the state Skaneateles we SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 439 kind of put that on hold because of scheduling. They did this basically the same thing recently and they put in a kiddy pool but instead of having a little old kiddy pool where the kids can wash off in the little small one at the Queensbury Elementary School this one actually has apparatus with kind of like you see at a water park with a very small one with little mushroom things and they have a big slide for the kids but yet it ends up into a little two foot pool and stuff, it is actually quite nice. We are looking at something along those lines. The other thing that Doug mentioned is, at least from the information that we have and most of the people that have come up to me are you going to put in a hockey rink? The Adirondack Youth Hockey League I do not know if it still is, it used to be the largest youth hockey association in the entire United States. They have broken it down a little bit other places have gotten larger but nine hundred kids a thousand kids. Rec. Chairman Irish-I think over a thousand. Rec. Member-Over a thousand, a large number, some for Queensbury, Queensbury now has a hockey team, there is a contract, how long is that contract go for Jack? Rec. Member-I think is it year to year. Rec. Member-But the idea would be, I would hope. Rec. Member-We would sit down with not just hockey people but sit down with hockey people, sit down with the swim people, sit down with basketball league, who ever is involved in men's basketball or basketball league, sit down with those groups, so you get some feed back from the community before we get going. Rec. Member-You have got to be careful when you say stuff like the largest Youth Hockey Program in the County, I .. Rec. Member-At one time it was. Rec. Member-At one time we also ran the largest pee wee wrestling program in the County too. Those things are fleeting they come and go. It is not a reason. Rec. Member-It is not that it is the largest, there is a large number. Rec. Member-Let me say this about I want to clarify my stance in a hockey facility, an ice facility that we are talking about. I want to make sure that everybody understands my position because I am taking this position forever and one time I was at the Adirondack Red Wings Hockey Team and somebody came up to me and said I thought you did not like Hockey? I have nothing against ice hockey I like it, it is not hockey at all and I want to make sure I clarify this so I can go to the Ice Hawks game with a clear conscious. But, from SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 440 my experience and I remind you that I have a masters degree in this area and I have been profession physical educator since 1963. From my experience these arenas become a business unto themselves. Once you have an ice facility they are so expense to maintain and to operate that they themselves become the focus. If we build a community recreation center with a swimming pool and a gymnasium and all the things that we are talking about then that is the deal. As soon as you add artificial ice or an arena, now you have a business unto itself. I would feel I do not want really, if I can help it my name connected to a burden on the taxpayers of keeping up a facility like that. Now the up keep of a swimming facility is probably equal but somehow that is a life saving thing that we are presenting to the people. You can live without skating you cannot live without swimming. Rec. Member-Or without knowing how. Rec. Member-So, as a kind of an alternative or even a compromise to still provide this is from day one I think that connected to this building if we have some foresight in this construction I would like to see for lack of a better term I called it a pole barn. A roof with lights on an open side, like a pole barn but a hockey ice on a regular slab on concrete. You could play hockey of course it is going to be colder because it is outdoor more. But that is a multi use facility, in the summer time take the walls down you have everything from a big picnic, dance area to rolling skating to skating boarding or bicycling or anything that your imagination can come up with under a roof like that. Now if we had some foresight in construction I think that people that follow us might thank us that someday we are going to demolish this area that those good people built thirty years ago, fifty years ago and we are going to put up, now our community is growing there is a demand, we are going to put up an artificial skating rink, now we can afford it. Does that kind of a concept make sense to you? In construction if we ask the construction engineers and architects to keep that in mind that might be something for the future, have some foresight in your design that maybe some day when we are all gone, the people that follow us might say those guys are great we can tear this right down and put up this. Now, let be back up and repeat myself. I am going to take a stance against this indoor skating facility because it is too much of a business unto itself you have to keep getting tenants to pay for it and it is too much of a burden on the taxpayer on a constant, constant upkeep. Now, that is my speech. Rec. Member-I am kind of in the middle of the road, I like hockey one of my kids played hockey but I am more concerned about two things. I want the project to go ahead and I do not want that to get in the way of it. I am worried about, and Harry has talked about this, the operation and maintenance cost. On the other hand, as I started to say, the number one thing people talked to me about and SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 441 the number one thing that came through on the survey is we want an ice rink, number one. Supervisor Brower-The interesting thing is Glens Falls Civic Center has already complaining that many of the teams that are signed up there for youth hockey are now contracting with this other outfit... Rec. Member-I addressed that when we signed that contract, because I also have a philosophical stance that we in the Town of Queensbury, Warren County have some kind of obligation to help that Civic Center. That is somewhat of our obligation. I speak very strongly at board meetings to move our graduation down there for lots of reasons, but one of the reasons is that, that is our Queensbury Schools contribution to the success of that building. So, I address that statement when we sign these contracts for the, they call it the Lake George forum. The answer I got when I said well Queensbury School is leaving there and we are going to the forum, what is going to happen. He said, well, South Glens Falls had been using the Saratoga facility and they left there and took all our Queensbury spots in the Civic Center. So, now, Saratoga has an empty slot in there. Rec. Chairman Irish-Wasn't Queensbury also going to Saratoga at a certain point for practice or no? Rec. Member-That seems to be like an emergency space. If something happens they, Queensbury gets ninety nine percent of their stuff from the Civic Center. I know this guy at the Forum Hugh Spitzer kid, a young man, I do know that he is very ambitious and has scheduled some teams from out of Town to come in and he sees it as filling some motels in the off season and a business kind of thing. His tournaments that he is sponsoring are so big that they are also going to have to use the Civic Center and Saratoga to play games but the finals are going to be up there. However, that being said it is a loss at present hurting the Glens Falls Civic Center. With that Moreau thing, and I have been back and forth on that right now I think, is it going to happen Harry? Rec. Director Harry Hansen-When I talked to the architect it was a three part, they were going to do a swimming pool, basketball courts and the ice rink. The ice rink is the big factor that is very,very expensive and expensive to operate and that is the one they thought they would cut out. The gentlemen that was in charge of the project there had indicated to me that was still the thinking that they would cancel out the ice skating area because of its cost and the cost to operate. So, it may only be a two part program up there. But they have not even begun fund raising. Rec. Chairman Irish-At one point a couple of years ago, Jack approached Pyramid about, remember at that point we were pitching if they would run it, if they would build it we would provide teams SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 442 and stuff. That may come somewhere down the road if we can get a corporate deal with somebody. Rec. Member-Malls, that is a whole other subject, that Pyramid is. Director Hansen-We heard back from them they are head man wrote Sharron a letter ...they were not interested at the time because we had pointed out that another Pyramid Mall was doing it in the western part of the state, the same thing, they had built an ice rink as a come on for people to come shopping....they were not interested in doing it here. Rec. Member-We also talked about a couple of multi use rooms that Jack likes to call padded rooms, for ..wrestling for karate for Ti Quand do for whatever that type of stuff. That would probably abut the gymnasium so that if we had something going on we might be able to use that as well for over flow. Small cafeteria. Rec. Chairman Irish-Concession area. Rec. Member-A suite of offices with a small conference room and then maybe a small staff dining area. To move the recreation commission into the new building...! was going to mention and the seniors. Unknown-How do they fit into this? Rec. Chairman Irish-They would like space for Kathy, some storage space some class room time. Originally the pitched it to us as, they wanted ten thousand square foot dedicated when we sat down with their planning committee they said, no we just want some time that we are not going to get bumped out of. Councilman Brewer-The reason I bring that up Doug is because when we met with them, last year, their main complaint was they do not have enough time over here that they are not getting bumped. They would like more time. What I see. Rec. Chairman Irish-Their architect has also told them they are going to out grow that building within three or four years based on their ... Councilman Brewer-I see them as more of not once a twice a week but on a daily basis. If you look at their reports and their numbers the need dedicated space. Rec. Member-We did talk about again this is kind of up in the air but after Doug and I met with the Seniors about having a fairly large room but also that might incorporate some programming for some teenagers, recreation and a library somewhat what they have got over here but something where they would have access to it full time. But, then other things they would need would be on a shared SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 443 basis, like not dedicated but they would have reasonable access to the class room space to the gymnasium ... Rec. Chairman Irish-They would have to schedule with Steve and Elise and Harry for the pool and for any of the other things around our programs but if you are talking a year in advance I am sure that is not going to be a big problem we can make those arrangements so that we can accommodate them. I do not think that they will take as much space as everybody thinks they are going to need. They would like some computer stuff and I do not think we're going you know be providing computer class rooms for them but they have some of their own stuff they want bring in a pool table, I guess, and they would like to create a day area, which I do not think is a bad idea as long as they let other people use it. If they want to create a day area and say we do not want any kids in here playing with the stuff. Councilman Brewer-That is essentially what is going to happen. They are going to want their own. Director Hansen-That has been their history up to now, their down stairs pool room their arts and crafts room is off limits unless you beg, borrow, and then it is almost a non existent thing. Could I bring up a question? A long time ago they talked with the Board Members, some board members about the possibility and I had suggested it as well the possibility of getting them use of that building and having the Board build a meeting room facility for the Planning Board, the Zoning Board and the Town Board. That would be strictly dedicated to that and that only. It does not have to be that huge a size, it would make sense, the Seniors said that they would be very happy with that facility as long as they could get it most of the time without getting bumped in the evening. Is that ever... Rec. Chairman Irish-That has changed since then. Councilman Boor-The other thing is. Director Hansen-Not according to John Dwyer. Councilman Boor-The only question I would ask is when they say they are going to outgrow it in three or four years are they talking about maybe that is what they are talking about inclusive. Rec. Member-They told us two things, one is that they would outgrow the building in its entirety but two the building that is there is cut up so bad that it isn't.. Councilman Boor-But my understanding was that even if it was not cut up so bad eventually that building in its entirety will not be big enough. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 444 Rec. Chairman Irish-I do not know who their consultant is but that was.. Director Hansen-They had bob Joy, Joy McCoola & Zilch come in and do a structural analysis of the building, could they add onto the north, yea they could but it was going to be expensive. Could they use the main rooms and cut them up a little bit for their own usage and maybe only keep on half the size. I only suggest it because if we are lucky enough to build this facility and move the department out of this area it frees up offices here it also frees up use of that building for the seniors to use if they could get more usage by the Town Board, and the Planning Board and the Zoning Board moving out to their own facility. A big meeting room would that not suffice for them? I mean, you are not going to be able to continue to keep growing a building because the Senior are growing. Seniors are going to grow and they are going to have to live with what they have, you just cannot increasing the size of the building. The Glens Falls Seniors are the same way. They are growing but they still remain in that same building. Rec. Member-Yes, but they have had informal discussions with Queensbury about them ...so they do not want to move out of Glens Falls. Councilman Boor-Let me as a question because I think everything that has been said here is prevalent and important, and I think it really goes to show the extent of knowledge that we are going to have to have when we do an RFP. All these things are getting thrown out here and it is pretty clear that everybody has got different ideas about what will work and won't work, what might be practical and what is not practical. Yes, I am glad we are going out to get bids on these things but it appears that we really do not have enough information to even have anybody do anything for us at this point in time. I think we need to figure out how do we get to that point where we can take, give it to somebody else to go further with it and I do not know how, there are a lot of ideas they are all good. We need to figure out how are we going to come up with .. Rec. Member-I have got an answer for you. I kind of thought the same things and it seems like we are wallowing for lack of a better term. I do not think, believe that and I am out to say it all inclusive ...I do not believe that the recreation commission has charged Harry Hansen enough with giving us just the answers and more specific direction to your questions. I think Rec. Chairman Irish-In what capacity. Rec. Member-I am mixing my words because I do not want anybody to get I see this, I think Harry could say he is the professional, I and Harry, build us a building bring us something, get us started then we can rip it apart, add, subtract. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 445 Rec. Chairman Irish-I think that is what they did with this more or less. Rec. Member-Well, I know it but I want some, I want Harry to do more. Give us prices on a what would you like to see as a swimming pool. There is an answer you could probably come up with, pretty accurately on an eight lane swimming pool, diving well, removable bulk head, there are some, we all could probably do that. Rec. Chairman Irish-You are talking costs, we are really looking at a building at this point as well as.. Rec. Member-I am going to say Harry, you know, and right we have done some of this already, I just think Harry ought to be more involved and more in on it. Rec. Chairman Irish-Harry is involved in all the meetings, all the planning meetings. Certainly we do not tell him to be quiet if he has got an opinion. ..Really what we want first is a stew, first lets build the stew first and then find out... Councilman Boor-We all want carrots we all want potatoes we don't know if we want chicken or beef. Rec. Chairman Irish-Lets find out what we can live with. Councilman Boor-I think you know, we are going to have these people come in say yea, we want it, we want it, we want to do this work and we are going to go well, we are not really sure of what we want. Councilman Brewer-Don't you have to define what the need is before you design a building? You have to ... Rec. Member-Way back, historically, even before the ice hockey thing came, there is a need this whole thing I would say started because there is a real need in this community for another indoor swimming facility. That is where this whole thing started. Rec. Member-And on this side of town ... Councilman Boor-That is a given. Supervisor Brower-That is also taking into affect the Y's building two new pools? Rec. Member-Absolutely. Rec. Chairman Irish-I think they decided to scale that down to one.. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 446 Rec. Member-They are going to be doing it over the next eight to ten years. Councilman Brewer-I ..for the need for a pool Dennis, I mean, Councilman Boor-...nobody has said that they we do not want that. That is a given we have one item. Rec. Member-That is where it all started from Roger. From that swimming pool we expanded to all these other meat and potatoes ideas. Rec. Chairman Irish-After the swimming pool everybody agreed about the swimming pool and then we started saying well lets think twenty or thirty years down the road and that is where it started to get to be, well we would really use a facility. Rec. Member-Well, I thought the second thing to historically was a recreation, a place for a recreation department to call home, out of this building free up some spaces here and put the recreation department in the building, that was number two. Councilman Boor-Now, with that is there equipment that is used by the recreation department exclusively that would be stored there? So, there is no need for storage for that department. Director Hanson-Yes, storage, I thought you were going to say like computers and things like that. Councilman Boor-No, I am talking about lawn mowers and things like th at. Director Hansen-We have a maintenance facility Councilman Boor-I know, but I want to know. Director Hansen-You will need storage, because you will have an operation that will need its own maintenance equipment. Councilman Boor-On the facility itself. Rec. Member-Unless you work something out with Chuck Rice in Building and Grounds to take care of the outside of the building. Councilman Boor-How does everybody feel about the Rec. Dept. being located over there, is that? Councilman Stec-I think it is a good idea. Councilman Boor-So, you have got the pool and the recreation department there is two givens. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 447 Rec. Member-That is kind of why we kind of settled on this ACC plot of land for plan B is across on Meadowbrook because of its proximity to the Town Office Building. In reality, Harry Hansen could walk from ACC property up to the Town Office Building, you know what I am saying. Close proximity it almost, I do not want to use the word campus but almost a campus idea and that is close enough. Physically close enough that materials tools stuff it is no big deal to move stuff back and forth. Councilman Brewer-Like you said you have got the facility at Jenkinsville and you have a barn where you keep most of your mowers and stuff and some you probably keep up to Gurney I would imagine. Councilman Boor-I just was not sure what, who had what, where. Director Hansen-The other thing Jack I am sure is going to mention is there is a short fall besides the swimming pool that we have the two main short falls is the gymnasiums or large spaces to run programs. We use this building we use the Nautilus we use Queensbury School, we use the Ramada Inn, we are using anything that we can get our hands on because we have more programs than there are facilities that are available for us. Rec. Chairman Irish-And we are paying for that space it is not being given to us so we are paying for space now. Councilman Boor-And it would be the professional consultants job to determine if this is the type gym that should be able to be split in half easily and all that. Rec. Member-We had a gym that was split in thirds. .. Rec. Chairman Irish-Three full size courts we are looking at. Councilman Brewer-To give you an example Roger on Saturday morning starting at I think it is at nine o'clock they use in the Middle school they use both gyms there, and they go until one thirty in the afternoon. Rec. Chairman Irish-You are talking about basketball, I think it starts at eight o'clock. Director Hansen-It starts at eight we also use the elementary school and the four five gym. Councilman Boor-So, we have got a pool we got a rec department housing an appropriate number of offices, we have got a gym with essentially three full basketballs courts. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 448 Rec. Member-Now from there the next thing, let me just interject from we got to this point we need to have some kind of kitchen, concession area not grandiose but some kind of a concession area, that kind of thing kitchen stuff. Then to my urging and thing we need for room we call a multi purpose room, we need a room based as I describe it basically with no baskets in it, a room that is padded cell so to speak, judo, karate, wrestling, aerobic dancing a dance studio, a room with a lower ceiling, but a big room but to do multi purpose things that don't work as well in a gymnasium or a work or work better in its own room like wrestling, karate, judo, aerobic dancing what else, gymnastics, tumbling thing, taebo, whatever is ...multi purpose room, write that down. Then as a discussion went on a bit vague on this but some kind of dedicated space for the senior citizens. Rec. Chairman Irish-It may not necessarily be space as much as some office space but time. ...we talked about class rooms for our first aid and ... Rec. Member-We talked about instructional class rooms. Because we give first aid lessons the indoor first aid stuff the CPR, Scub diving, arts and crafts room... Now you are talking about a pretty good building. Councilman Brewer-The seniors I can only envision and this is just my thought, that they are going to want to have a space that is theirs that they can go in and if they want to their china on display they can walk out of their room lock it and don't have to worry about it. Rather than have to pick up sort and closet whatever and I think that is what they are looking for. Rec Member-The question is it is not a Senior Center but is it a community center. Director Hansen-It can be used for their use but it is not dedicated ... Councilman Brewer-The senior building is a separate issue in my mind only because Councilman Boor-Well, that is just a name and you absolutely correct if we call it a rec center yea, but if we call it a community center... Councilman Brewer-To me it means kids and young adults and Rec. Chairman Irish-The thing we want to avoid too Tim is creating recreation for everybody else in town and then recreation for seniors. Councilman Brewer-I am not saying they should not use the pool and those kinds of things I think as far as they having their own building I SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 449 think you put them even where they are and if you move things around with the space freed up here they are not going to need the whole center. Rec. Member-They came to us and asked us about this. Councilman Brewer-If you move things around down in that cellar and Chuck Rice moves some of his equipment around they are going to have the whole cellar they are going to have more square footage than they really need. I do think, I do not want to say include them I want to say Councilman Boor-But you will have transportation back and forth to the pools and .. Director Hansen-We offer senior swimming at the school pool during the winter time for them they still have to go over. Councilman Boor-I guess the only thing I can say to that is it is easy for us young folks to say that now, you know, twenty or thirty years you may wish that the ... Councilman Brewer-Roger, because you are throwing complication into the factor. If our goal is to provide a pool and that was the number one thing that we talked about not to say that the seniors couldn't use it, maybe that frees up time for the kids to swim and they go up to the school and have more time there or more time at the Y or whatever ha ppens. Rec Member-In our discussions I got to say this from an observation every time providing recreation for senior citizens comes up the good discussions break down and it turns into confusion. When ever we talk about the senior citizens all our good stuff and the other thing, what is a senior citizen, I am sixty two years old how come I do not go to those. I do not want to hang around ...people. ... I am disappointed in some of them that migrated to that status when they are perfectly young people. Rec Chairman Irish-I have no problem, if we can accommodate them if we can't I am not... Councilman Boor-I am not sure what their needs really are. Rec Member-If the Town of Queensbury as a whole ok, the Senior Citizens have the use of that building cart banc it is your building and somebody said we would need to build a meeting room for the Town Board, the Zoning Board of Appeals, ok, how much cost are we getting into and where would we locate it. Would it be easier in the long run, I do not know if it would be cheaper but to add the seniors over here and give them some dedicated space. I do not know how, SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 450 and then let the Town Board take the offices here and that over there for expansion and ... Rec. Chairman Irish-We also talked about providing a theater type situation over there to move the Town Board if they wanted to move their meetings to that facility but put like a small amphitheater type where, comfortable seating for people that what to come up where we could have some training or something but the Town Board to have the Planning Board. Councilman Brewer-Also, when this facility is built all the programs that you run over here Harry go away, that frees up a lot more time for them to do whatever they want. I think we are making Director Hansen-Doug brought up a point that we did talk about, we thought maybe if we built a facility that also included a small little amphitheater for the Town Board, Planning Board and Zoning Board it made more sense to just spend a little bit more on a little, one little facility and give them that whole building over there then try and let them use both buildings, because that is what they were going to end up doing. Because if the Town Board stays over there they still have no usage in the evenings because Willie has to get in there at five o'clock and start setting up chairs for the seven o'clock meetings and result that they will have ... Rec. Chairman Irish-We would use the Theater as much ourselves...So that might make more sense if the Town Board decided that they wanted to let the Seniors take that building and do what they wanted with it. Rec. Member-If we are talking a couple of class room spaces, make one a little larger and a amphitheater setting it would work. Director Hansen-The Planning Group does have a price for them they have an estimate. I still say that if you talk to the Seniors their first choice is that building, exclusively, but their first choice that is what they have always said that they wanted. It is not going to meet their needs in twenty years but at that point most of us maybe thinking somewhat bigger. Councilman Brewer-Who do you have in mind to write this RFP? Rec. Chairman Irish-Probably the staff and Commission will get together and decide what we are looking for in a consultant and go from there. Rec. Member-Right now we are taking about just an RFP for a consultant. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 451 Supervisor Brower-The other thing I wanted to ask about we talked about ACC locating somewhere on the ACC grounds so that the College has some utilization of the facility. Is that still the plan of the Commission? Rec. Chairman Irish-The only thing we are waiting on for that is to get preliminary budget so we can get O&M figures and we may be able to do that through another facility that is comparable to what we are talking about. We are in a discussion on how much do we charge them for O&M. I think most of us agree that in one fashion or another they have to pay for O&M whether it is through a trade in building space or however we want to do it but we just cannot say their mind set I think was we are giving you the property we want to use it for no charge. Harry and the Commission was adamant that no, we are going to work out a way for you guys to pay for this and again whether it is dollar for dollar or we get to use your gymnasium and that kind of thing. There are a couple different ways to do it. But that is the only thing we have to work out with them. Supervisor Brower-I know Bob Joy at one time when Chancellor Bob King was here from the State University the first time he ever visited the facility as a new Chancellor came to ACe. Bob...came over to me and said you know it would not be unique for the State University to partner with a local community to build a facility like this and pay a good portion of it. Of course I could see the red tape in time .. Rec. Chairman Irish-They did tell us that they were not interested in going to State Ed. though. Director Hansen-They had their own project going, they flatly said that they did not want to partner money wise. They would be more than happy Supervisor Brower-Their project was not as I recall was not a gymnasium or Rec. Chairman Irish-No. Director Hansen-Isn't Hafner also looking up something with funding? Rec. Chairman Irish-Yes. Bob Hafner is also looking into whether or not we can build this project over there because originally we were told ...originally they thought we could do it though the intermunicipal agreement but when they said something to Bob about it, it is not owning it or leasing it, he said wait, a minute, I do not think you can spend money that way. So, he is looking into that. Director Hansen-His question is bonding. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 452 Rec. Chairman Irish-..own property, you have to have a lease or own, we may not be able to bond or we may not be able to build there because I think we do expect to bond it. Rec. Member-Doug, is it possible that we could own the footprint? Rec. Chairman Irish-I think we could, the County actually owns that property, right? Director Hansen-Both counties. Rec. Member-Both Warren and Washington County. Rec. Chairman Irish-I do not know how interested they are in working with us on it but I think the county could decide if that is a good project, they want to see us own that property and be able to bond it and build it. Supervisor Brower-I do not think the counties would object to the concept at all, in fact, I think that they would welcome it, feeling that they would not have to pay for the capital construction, cost and whatever O&M ACC did pay would be far less than they could probably do any other way, even though they would have limited access. Rec. Chairman Irish-It would be less than what they would pay if they had to go to Queensbury School and rent their facilities or to the Civic Center or something like that. Rec. Member-What if they built their own building and bond that, that would be ridiculous. Rec. Member-The bottom line is, ..this is true that gee we have to own the property to put the building on but once the building is built it is not like we are going to take it and move someplace else. So, once we decide, once the building is built it is on the property. If we own the foot print, they own the foot print it does not make any difference they are going to have use of it... Supervisor Brower-Probably just require an intermunicipal agreement between the Town and Warren and Washington Co. Rec. Member-Bob said we might have to go a step beyond that and have them either lease long term or buy it. Have them deed it to us somehow. I think that is doable. What we are trying to find out if they are willing to go along with us, if we give them a figure for operation and maintenance costs and they say, that is way too much, we do not want to do that, forget it. Then our backup plan is in place. The advantage here, as Jack said, we do not want to make this a business, business, but we have to be responsible to the taxpayers in being fiscally responsible. I think it is going to do better SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 453 financially on the campus because you are going to have day use and you are also going to have students we will give them a big reduced rate they buy a semester pass or something they are going to get quite a deal but we are going to get income from them. I think if you put it on the next road over you are going to get some of that you are just not going to get as much ... Rec. Chairman Irish-You also have two developments over there that you may wind up getting more use out of. Councilman Boor-It is good location. Rec. Member-The college kids use the gyms, gymnasiums more than anything else. Councilman Brewer-That is the other thing I was going to ask you, if you are going to charge those kids that go to college is there going to be a charge for residents or out of towners? Rec. Chairman Irish-Most of our programs have fees anyway. Rec. Member-A multi tier system except with what we have talked about with ACe. We did this on our own but saying what we would be willing to do at least in our initial contact negotiations was to say faculty, staff and students of ACC would get the same rate as residents of ACC because that is their contribution of a million dollars worth of property would allow for that. However, if somebody from Hudson Falls wants to come in and use it fine, they are going to pay more just like they would if they were at Gurney Lane or something. Councilman Brewer-So, they would sign up at your office just like we do for basketball or skiing or whatever and just simply run the same way we always have done. Rec. Member-The only other thing that we broached the subject on and they were going to talk about it but they do not really want to do it because it sounds like it is going to be higher tuition even though it isn't, if they charged a mandated fee for the recreation building. I was on campuses where they do it, it is automatic it was fifty dollars a semester or twenty nine dollars a semester. Every student signs up every student gets to use it whether they use it or not they get assessed the fee. That is a boondoggle in some respect but it is a cash cow for us, because we would actually get a lot of people signing up, whether or not they use the facility. That is why the colleges do it, actually it puts more money in their operating budget. We would somehow some kind of fee splitting thing with them, they would take a portion of it to collect the fee but that would be part of operation and maintenance. Supervisor Brower-How far are you away from the college in these discussions? SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 454 Rec. Chairman Irish-We put off another meeting with them until we had a consultant on board that could give us those numbers, so, right now they are waiting for us to get back to them. Rec. Member-The only issue right now as far as I can tell is that whether or not they will agree with what we come up with operation and maintenance costs. If they agree with that everything else is kind of in place which is a shock. There were two or three road blocks along the way and kept saying that is fine, that's fine. Rec. Chairman Irish-There was a big concern over who was going to control the administration the building and programming and everything and we told them flat out this is our building this is for our programming we will make every effort to accommodate you but we are going to control this facility. Fine. Councilman Brewer-...hiring original staff and do you have a number? Councilman Boor-I think until we know exactly what .. Director Hansen-You will need front counter people to check people, maintenance crew like you have here to clean up, you will need maybe a facilities supervisor but other than that we should be able to handle a lot of ... Supervisor Brower-Just so you know, someone came in representing the Glens Falls Senior Citizens they said they wanted a stake in this building and they kept going and you really need more staff than what you have got one person, we have got four down there at the Glens Falls Senior Center. I said how many of them are you going to fire them, all or what? They looked at me what, because you know they have an outrageous staff for the number of people. We have one person that handles our center and they have four. You have got to be kidding it is not that much bigger. It is a two story building, well three stories they use the basement for woodwork. Rec. Member-I think what generated the conversation with the seniors about moving into that building they were talking about hiring a recreation spec., program director, and I just thought that was ludicrous for them to spend the money on a part time staff or for planning recreation when they have, you know, a whole department right here to do that. Councilman Brewer-I think in my own mind, maybe I have a simple mind, but it complicates things to hell for me to build a recreational facility and I am not using that term as elderly don't have recreation, but you are trying to put that facility into that building and I do not think that there is a need for that. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 455 Rec. Chairman Irish-I like the idea of a meeting hall, if you can, if the Town Board can accommodate them with that building we certainly would have any problem in including in our plans a meeting hall auditorium type thing that the Town Board, Planning Board..something that you could get fifty to a hundred people in. Rec. Member-Philosophically, I think we do need to provide like I am going to say that building for Senior Citizens because it seems to me that when you look at the global picture of this area they almost try to turn it into a retirement area. People come here to retire ..all these places that are being built that people are building senior citizen housing for all stages from assisted living to just nice places. So, economically because this is a retirement destination for some people, that we do need to do that kind of stuff. So, I might I like Mr. Brewer's thinking and that is just take a building for the Senior Citizens exploit this idea that this is a destination to retire to and here is another reason to retire. Rec. Chairman Irish-We have talked about that but I have not heard any, other than Tim, what your feeling is about that building. Is it something that the Town Board... Councilman Boor-I do not have a problem with it, I don't like I said, I don't know where we go or where the Zoning and Planning Board go. Rec. Member-As Tim pointed out we would take Harry and his staff out of here Councilman Boor-There is nothing in this building that is set up for a meeting. Rec. Member-But you meet on separate nights anyway Rec. Member-You could go to meet in our new gymnasium in the new recreation center. Rec. Chairman Irish-Yea. If you had a meeting that was going to be large.. Councilman Brewer-Rather than try and go to the school and ... Councilman Boor-Assuming the assumption there is that it has not already been paid for by some other group like a league night or something. Theoretically the room is big enough but if we are really utilizing this building the way we want to it may not be available. Rec. Chairman Irish-But there are ways to design it Rec Member-Our Recreation Director he is in charge of scheduling. Councilman Boor-I did not mean that it was a show stopper. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 456 Rec. Member-If we have a divisible gym it may be the way to do it would be instead of having every single court full maybe leave one of the empty for... Councilman Boor-I think over time you would find out ... Councilman Brewer-It would be an experience to find out who is going to want it and when and all that it is going to take time. We are a long way from that discussion. Rec Member-If the Town Board is interested we can certainly include that when we are looking at the RFP or getting the consultant, this is what we are looking at and if we can get this hundred seat amphitheater or whatever we are talking that makes a whole lot of sense to me and it does free up that building. Supervisor Brower-I would not make the building any bigger with those, ...the meeting room we use already should be adequate. Director Hansen-Fifty seats is more than enough ninety percent of the time, you are not going to have four seats in between people. A little amphitheater with a stage that is dedicated. You have Town Board Meetings four times a month you have Planning Board Meetings twice a month, Zoning Board meetings it could be used at other times for other things but at least it is dedicated for that on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday evenings, it is a heck of a lot cheaper than trying to build a whole other Senior Center with dedicated pool room, Library, they have got all of that over there. Councilman Brewer-It is there, it is built. Director Hansen-If the Board leaves they get us of that till all hours of the evening so their afternoon classes then can do into the early evening seven eight o'clock at night. Rec Member-Don't forget they go to bed at seven thirty or eight o'clock. Councilman Brewer-On the instance when you have that hundred people come to a meeting you use the gymnasium. Rec. Member-Jack made a good point but that was on a school facility that is not... Rec. Member-You do not want folding doors on gymnasium not anymore. Rec. Member-The liability, some insurance companies won't even write the liability policy if you have folding doors. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 457 Rec. Member-But we could use the multi purpose room. Rec. Member-I think the school law now is that you cannot open and close those folding doors during the school hours. It has to be done early in the morning or late at night. There has to be two people involved and sometimes three. Right now the system is that you have to put a key in here and somebody else has to be at the other side of the room and put a key in simultaneously to make the door work. I am sure that in practicality that those doors are open and closed during the school day but you can bet not when anybody is around looking at it. I think it is a little over kill, but. Councilman Boor-Lets get back on target here, at this point where are we, Seniors over here potential building... Rec Chairman Irish-I think that is what we are hearing from the Town Board is that you have no problem with them taking that building if you have a place for your meetings and the Planning Board and the Zoning Board. Councilman Brewer-It would be less expensive. Supervisor Brower-They had asked us last year, they estimate that within five years they would like to see us have a facility of our own that was their desire. Councilman Boor-There certainly are advantages as Tim pointed out earlier if they want to leave their stuff, lock it up it is their building it is not like anybody else is coming and going. Rec Member-..Queensbury is offering its own Senior Citizens a building that makes another attraction for some people to come here. Rec Member-So, you have got a pool with a diving well, three court gymnasium the locker room and all that supports the facilities that go with it, indoor running track, not competition track, just walking, jogging track above. Small cafeteria, a concession area. Rec. Member-We tossed out the exercise room, right? We thought we would just go with maybe some exercise. Rec. Member-The multi purpose room, what we talked about was maybe up above where the running track is, putting some, just a little bit of exercise equipment a few bicycles, aerobic type stuff, we do not want to compete with Nautilus, we do not want to compete with the Y. Councilman Boor-Is it essentially just a balcony that goes around? Rec Member-Yes, but there is treads on it, it is lined. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 458 Councilman Boor-Is it supported from below or is it ... Councilman Stec-It is suspended usually. Rec Member-Because that gives your full use and full vision you have seats underneath for basketball games. Councilman Stec-Like four lanes usually. Rec Member-We wanted to avoid competing with the Y or ... Rec Member-This is an example, this is a facility on a college level out of Boston, they have this here and then they have in the corner they have stepper machines ... Councilman Boor-That would be scaled that would be as much as four lanes or more? Rec. Member-That is about four lanes. Director Hansen-Either four or less. We do not want to make this a competition this is just... Councilman Boor-I understand I am just trying to get a ..of what this looks like. Rec Member-It is about half the size of this room. ...About eight foot wide. The gymnasium something like this, obviously locker rooms and stuff. One of the things that they did but there is a pool in their case, this is their weight room they have something better than any place around here. Better than the YMCA, better than all this and that is their machines and their weights and all that stuff. But there is an open deck, people sit there and peddle but they are looking through glass down into a big pool facility. Councilman Boor-Anything to keep their mind doing something. Supervisor Brower-Are we competing with the YMCA? Director Hansen-Not at all the YMCA's pool is for YMCA's people, I cannot go there unless I join. So, the YMCA whatever they put in is for their people. This is for the rest of the community. Supervisor Brower-Do they have to sign up and pay a fee here to use 't? I , Councilman Boor-If it is part of a program, yes, but not just for recreational swimming. Rec Member-Dennis, that is a good question that you brought up. I would say it was brought up at the beginning planning of this that SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 459 very question. There is a fine line between what we are providing and not being in competition with other things, you say the YMCA or even the Nautilus or this ... Rec. Chairman Irish-We are not doing anything other than providing our building for our programs that we already have. Rec Member-We are providing a community recreation center. Not a YMCA not a fitness center not racket ball, Nautilus no sauna's you cannot get a sun tan in here. Supervisor Brower-Now, being that the school has worked with us all these years allowing us to use their pool are you planning on a reciprocal type thing if they want to use the pool for some kind of swim meet or something? Rec Member-Yes. The cold hard fact is that this project has absolutely nothing to do with the school, nothing except being good neighbors. Supervisor Brower-Will you still use the school facility if you have this faci Iity? Rec Member- We would expect that the school would say, hey, we have to drain our pool can we bus our kids over there,yes. We are good neighbors, the school is a good neighbor we would be a good neighbor, but in terms of coming together or having any legal connection, nothing, this is Queensbury, this is the Town Supervisor at the time would be proud to be the Town Supervisor with this facility just as the Superintendent of Schools is proud of his facility. Councilman Boor-Just as somebody in the Lake George School Dist. that lives in the Town of Queensbury will have access to this pool. Rec Member-Absolutely right. Rec Member-That is something that I envision is that some of the programs will still be held over there and primarily the new facility. But, partly to get on the other side of town for people over there but also overflow, there is overflow now from their facility we are looking for a new one. I can envision before too long we are going to need more space here so we are not going to build another building and say oh gee we need some more pool space, we are going to enter into a contract with them for extra time. We will have all the time we need here because it is going to be our facility. We are not going to have to work around them, we have our facility now. I still envision, Harry, ... Director Hansen-..Flyers will kiss our feet when they get a chance to get back in Queensbury School because we pushed them out and they cannot get the time that they need. We, using our own facility, SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 460 will free up an enormous amount of school time over there for the pool usage. The school uses it till six fifteen every night Monday through Friday and then somebody else can use it. BOCES and the Flyers will love the opportunity to do it five nights a week, now they only have two nights a week, we have it three. We could use it five... Rec Member-We will continue our relationship with the school, it is Queensbury number one, but we are going to use some of their facilities just like they will from time to time ask to use ours. Rec Member-Probably this facility we would have a life time debt to pay back. Supervisor Brower-I appreciate the update and the discussion about the facility because I think it is important and we will let you keep working toward that. Another reason we are meeting tonight is because we wanted to clarify the authority of who is going to sign contracts. I don't care if the Recreation Commission signs contract but I do think that the Town Supervisor should be involved in that tra nsaction. Rec Chairman Irish-I agree, Henry and I talked the other day and .. Comptroller Hess-I would just like to throw a comment here, I am listening to a lot of things and really I see a different, this is structure for the Parks and Recreation Department when this thing comes together, if it comes together in the scope you are talking about. You are talking about revenue from a variety of sources that really we are going to have to pull out of the general fund to keep track of because I think the recreation funds are going to have to self sufficient. Not, necessarily means, that does not necessarily mean that the general fund can't subsidize it, can't carry its debt but maybe it wouldn't. Maybe it would have a taxing authority? Maybe it would pay its own debt. I do not know enough about it, but what I hear saying is when this comes about when it comes back in the scope we are talking about with the sources of revenue or the programs and all the things that you are talking about this is really going to have to be broken off into a, into something that looks like our cemetery fund or one of our utility funds. The way it is structured and accounted for. That will not change the Town Boards authority over it unless you make another change in structure. But, it will have some implications that I am going to have to really look into it really will, it will change the way we issue debt to cover this and it will change the way we pay for the debt. It is going to be a big consideration. Councilman Brewer-Does that mean that as this department grows and this facility is built it will have to be self sustaining? Comptroller Hess-I am not going to say...sufficient in the respect that the revenues are going to have to equal the expenditures, but the SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 461 revenues could be from any variety of sources. It could be from taxes it could be from a subsidy from the general fund. Your cemetery fund that is the one that should be self sustaining and it is not. So, because we subsidize it. Councilman Brewer-We have different opinion on that. Comptroller Hess-Mine is not really based on personal opinion it is based on accounting theories that is an... fund that is supposed to carry it so, and it doesn't so yea its fine I am stating what I think is a fact not arguing a point. But, I see this involving into that type of accounting structure. It is not a concern of this group necessarily but it is a big change. Rec Member-Somebody said the other day that this will probably be the largest capital, is the largest capital project that the Town has under gone and one of the larger projects Unknown-Except for the water plant. Rec Member-short of a sewer district or something, really it is a major project. Rec. Member-The water plant probably, one of the biggest. Rec. Member-It is still on that scale of a major project. Supervisor Brower-This way I think it is imperative that you really try to seek grants for this and I hope you do because it is like the library, I go to all these expansion meetings and now they are talking fifteen million bucks well, you know what I do not think the taxpayers are going to support it. If it come out to fifteen million bucks. Councilman Brewer-Two years and we are back into the same thing all over again. Rec. Member-Let me ask you something. Supervisor Brower-I do not know about this though Rec. Member-In terms of funding mechanism this was kind of bounced off this what is the Towns position on commercial advertising? You know these days you know there is the Pepsi arena now, that kind of stuff, I am not saying we are going to sell the gymnasium or we are going to call it Frito Lane Gymnasium or something but even to the point where Rec Chairman Irish-Does the school have pouring rights up there for Pepsi or something like that? Rec Member-The school is against sponsorships in general SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 462 Rec Member-I do not know the answer to that but my....at a swim meet to allow corporate sponsorship... Rec Chairman Irish-I do not think that is a bad idea. To have a sponsor that brings in team or something let them advertise or whatever make the signs... Councilman Boor-I do not think in theory it is bad but I think here again we should talk to Henry. Comptroller Hess-I think there is some work, I am just saying there is research to be done in that regard. I know Pepsi arena can sell because it has a draw from a big area, I do not know how much sponsorship is worth it in Queensbury. Rec Member-The Pepsi Area only sold the name of the building. Actually inside the building at NCAA events you can buy Coca-Cola because Coke is one of the sponsoring things for NCAA events. They just named the outside of the building but back to the ...make a statement. I do not like using the word apology because I am not good at that, but too spoke against, up against Doug signing these things, I just did not feel comfortable that you even personally or representing the commission putting your name on a document of twenty thousand dollars, nineteen thousand fifty dollars. I think that if the Town Supervisor signs along with the Chairman of the Recreation Commission that is a form of checks and balances and protects you, it protects the town. It is cover our butt kind of decision. Supervisor Brower-Or even Harry. Rec Member-Or even Harry can sign. Supervisor Brower-The question I got is whoever does sign when it is time to pay a voucher I ought to be able to call you or Harry and say hey, I have got this voucher for this project is this complete? whoever is responsible an theoretically who ever signed it should be able to say yes, they have completed the project it is ok to pay this. Rec Member-Harry when we got the pool cover voucher got done, did you sign it saying that? Ok. That went to Henry? Comptroller Hess-And that is the way things get done and I have not really looked at it this closely but it does go back to transactional bonding we had bonds for all our paid staff a blanket bond it doesn't extend to commissions, now maybe it should, I will have to look into to see whether it can? Rec Member-Henry, can the Chairman of the Cemetery Commission go out and decide to buy a new lawn mower and sign it? SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 463 Comptroller Hess-His signature is really not it doesn't ...a transaction. Rec Member-But now why is that different than the chairman of recreation? Comptroller Hess-I cannot give you an answer because I do not think that there is one. Rec Member-I do not think there is this is my point, I think that, checks and balances. Rec Chairman Irish-I understand where you and ..are both coming from but you have got to understand that I had a legal opinion that say yes, you do have the authority to do it. But I understand where you are coming from and certainly Dennis and you. Rec Member-...had to back down from that legal.. Comptroller Hess-I think the intentions were good but ... Rec Member-No, I do not think he did. Rec Member-He was vague about it Rec Member-He did not back down an inch. Rec Member-The bottom line was it isn't like Doug was going to pay the money out of his pocket, the bottom line it was just trying to keep the thing going. Rec Chaiman Irish-I think Dennis's solution is that... Rec Member-After the other night I do not know now and maybe this is where we need probably Bob more anything else, but there is something about people you are just talking about the liability on bonding and the liability of people I know fore instance that Board of Directors can get sued individuals can get sued but if a Corporation screws up the Board of Directors can be held liable to a certain point. Also, anybody can get sued but if your name is on the contract they can come after you they did not come after me as a member of the commission, I would rather have Dennis sign the stuff and put the liability in his lap. No offense. Councilman Boor-That is an interesting point though. Comptroller Hess-We have officers and directors liability but is the name people are the board? Rec Member-When you said that, that is the first thing that made me think, if we are not covered as volunteer. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 464 Rec Chairman Irish-You are covered under the Towns liability because you signed an oath of office. Councilman Boor-But you didn't. Rec Member-Yes, I did. Councilman Boor-It is not an employee. Councilman Boor-I am saying they could come after you personally. Rec Member-If somebody drowns in the pool, we are all going to get sued. Councilman Boor-I do not know that we would. Rec Chairman Irish-The town has the resolution in accordance with the State law that allows them to adopt that to establish a commission. ... it is not that you established a state commission you did not do that. Councilman Boor-I am not saying, the State gave the authority the town did not give you the authority. Not being an employee I think you are probably not bonded. Comptroller Hess-That has never been contemplated. We have never had that level we would have to look and see should it be expended and under what conditions. Rec Chairman Irish-You know something at this point I really do not know if it is going to be an issue for us. I think everybody is aware that it has created a problem that we probably should not have traipsed down that road. From here until this project is finished I am quite certain that the Town Board is going to be up to speed on whatever we are doing and anything that needs to be signed will be signed through the proper channels. Rec Member-As long as we are on the topic if you, I would be real happy to find out if we do have some kind of liability coverage. Comptroller Hess-I am going to find out. Rec Member-And for no other reason lets say, our commission approves the building of this pool and we find design flaws a chunk of concrete falls off the building knocks somebody in the pool and they die, we are all going to be sued. I would like to know.. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 465 Councilman Boor-Who authorized it? Rec Member-They are going to say gee, ETU, the head of the planning committee and he is the one that did this and Doug signed the contract, you know. Comptroller Hess-I am comfortable we have when you said we have some liability yes we do. If you are out on Town Business and visiting one of the parks and run over somebody we have provisions but what is the limit of that liability. That is what I need to know. Councilman Stec-How quick are we ready to go to RFP? Rec Chairman Irish-I would probably say, given the summer months and Connie and Charlie are not even here tonight and they are generally most of the meetings we probably are not going to rush through it maybe October we will sit down and have an idea of what we want to see for a building that we can put out there and have somebody give us a bid on. I do not think that is unreasonable. Supervisor Brower-When you put the square footage here you have got parking and pavement you know, estimated two hundred cars, ninety nine thousand square feet but when I first looked at this I saw hundred and thirty three thousand seven hundred fifty and I am thinking building and I am going holly mackerel our building on Corinth Road was a hundred thousand square feet. Rec Member-The other thing Dennis that was put together when we were originally talking about the Michaels property which has eleven and five acres of usable. We were talking about that was what was going to fit the blue print that is going to fit there, that was before we started looking at ACC, which we are going to need a little bit more parking but that is one of the advantages we are going to have access to their major parking lot. Supervisor Brower-That is what I liked about that proposal, the other part they can help in maintenance plowing and maybe even some cleaning services. Rec Member-That is what we are talking about negotiating a trade off. Councilman Boor-It may be very convenient for them. Supervisor Brower-Well, you don't have to start from scratch. Rec Member-We do not have to build a road. Rec Member-The other ones we had a build and road and move uti Iities. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 466 Rec Chairman Irish-I have to tell you as much as ill will that it created me signing that contract it was probably in hind site a blessing, I have got to get something good out of this. Had I not done that and it went to Dennis right now we would be talking with a consultant and you probably would still be upset that we are doing it even though you had signed the contract. But, the fact that I did and the Town Board took the action that it did, I think is probably going to give us a better project in the long run and a better working relationship communication wise between the town board and the recreation commission. Councilman Boor-It will make it an easier sale to the public too. Rec Chairman Irish-The last thing you want to bring in front of them in November now is a project for fifteen million when you saw a big argument in front of the Town Board here, these guys can't get along in a meeting, we are going to give them money to spend on top of that? You do not want to go there, so. We will take our time and make sure we keep everybody in the loop including Supervisor Brower-It may give you the time you need to secure grant funds too. .. Rec Chairman Irish-I am not sure how it works off the top of my head but I am sure once we have some type of a capital budget then we can go out and solicit some... they want to know the business plan is and stuff like that. Rec Chairman Irish-Again, I do not expect that we will go to referendum for this until November so even if we go through the whole planning process and we are done planning and ready to put something in the ground in Mayor June we still have the opportunity to look for grants that whole time before it goes to referendum. Supervisor Brower-Until September something, September 1st. ..change the number you have to put before the taxpayer. Rec Member-You are talking this next November? Councilman Boor-2004 a year from this November. It is a valid point because you have that much more time for grants and maybe by the time it does get to the ballot it isn't fifteen million maybe it is ten million. Supervisor Brower-It is a lot harder to rush it to referendum and have the voters deny it and then have to say ok, where the hell do we go from here? Than it is to take your time, plan it well, see what sources of revenue are available and put it to them and have it successfu I. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 467 Rec Member-That is a good point, I guarantee you if you take your time plan it out do a good sell this will pass because the voters will pass anything to do with recreation, athletics, children, education, it is a given. If we get our ducks in order ... Rec Chairman Irish-It will actually give us more time to spend on each facet of the, whether it is just the pool, we do not have to, we can say ok, we have got that it is done, we can spend more time and get more information. Councilman Brewer-Don't get complacent though. Councilman Boor-I do not sense that from this board. Rec Chairman Irish-We have enough interest to go to two a month meetings. Enough members have asked for more meetings. Supervisor Brower-The only other thing I will bring up since it was mentioned earlier before our meeting, the damage at the park? I do not know what level of damage that amounts to, Henry what do you normally do with insurance coverage. Comptroller Hess-We will need incident report and an estimate of damages and we submit it. Rec Chairman Irish-What about the bridge at Hudson Pointe? Can that be covered on our insurance? Comptroller Hess-I am yes, because we make the assumption that everything should be. Rec Chairman Irish-Just like a regular liability policy...1 am not sure was it ice Harry that did that? Director Hansen-Ice, he is going down this Thursday, he has given me the guy that... Supervisor Brower-Are their guidelines, Henry, at which time, if it is not that major damage, would you want to submit a claim? Comptroller Hess-Well, I will tell you we do not get that frequency thing with property damage, so if it is property damage we go for the, automobile you get frequency, workers camp you get frequency, property damage you don't. Not in our case. Rec Member-Somebody can be arrested if we catch them? Director Hansen-All I can tell you is I got a phone call in the during dinner that the man went down to look at the facility as he would normally do and in the evening and found, this, this, this and this SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 468 broken, destroyed I told him to call the police that I would be here if he needed me he knew where to get me ... Rec Chairman Irish-He looks at that each night? Director Hansen-He doesn't look at it each night but he said we have soft ball games tonight we sent him down to some of the parks to check them out and he does not have soft ball responsibilities he normally would have one Monday through Friday evenings. He was going to get back to me and either leave a message here, stop in here or leave message at home. So, I do not know the extent of the damage except that he said the sign was broken as you went in the door, somebody had broken and taken some of the bolts out of the main dock and broken the Boy Scout fishing dock that had been put in by the Boy Scouts as an Eagle Scout project. A little further down from the main dock a little further down stream, that is all he said. Rec Chairman Irish-I am pretty sure that fishing dock was ok when I came across that bridge Tuesday afternoon. Director Hansen-Well, we had a man down there today and I am going to find out if that thing was ok today, because if he went down today it happened sometime between ten, eleven, twelve o'clock and six thirty tonight. How can it happen in the middle of the day... Supervisor Brower-I was going to say the fishermen would ring their necks if they saw them. Director Hansen-It was a warm day, the sun did come out so there were people using it, I am sure. Councilman Brewer-I am sure there are people down there. What possess people to do something like that? Rec Chairman Irish-The first year they seeded that before we put the split rail fence up you had some idiot out there doing donuts. Director Hansen-The idiots that did that at Hudson River Park got stuck, the police caught them and I made them pay the damages and he cussed me out every time he sent me a monthly check and I turned it into Henry and he bitched me out every time he had to pay. His father would write a little note I hope you are satisfied, five more payments to go, three more payments to go... He drove his car into the infield and he got stuck Rec Member-And he is mad at you. Director Hansen-I charged him, I went to the landscaper I said how much to repair this he gave me an estimate, we put the estimate together and we wrote the guy... SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 469 Rec Member-So you are the bad guy because he committed a crime. Director Hansen-We went to the judge and the judge upheld it. Rec Chairman Irish-It might be worth buying dummy cameras just to give the appearance that they are on tape. Rec Member-Has the Town Board done anything about interviewing any of the applicants for the position? Supervisor Brower-That is on my agenda coming up. Monday night Town Board Meeting will be before at 6:30 P.M. with Cemetery Commission ... also talk about lighting policy and possibly interviews. Councilman Boor-No. 11B last night, I would like to put another resolve in that I talked to Dan very briefly...the language is not clear, I would like it to stay at three seventy five. In other words if we do not do anything it would stay at three seventy five. Comptroller Hess-It says that, until it is rescinded or changed...it takes an action, if you don't take any action it will be three seventy five. Councilman Brewer-Until next year when we change it. Councilman Boor-I hope we do, lets not get, I would love for it to be more. Councilman Stec-Right, sure, we are going to look at it again. RESOLUTION TO ADJOURN SPECIAL SESSION RESOLUTION NO. 347.2003 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. Daniel Stec WHO MOVED FOR ITS ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mr. Roger Boor RESOLVED, that the Special Town Board Meeting of July 22, 2003 is hereby adjourned. Duly adopted this 22nd day of July, 2003 by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Boor, Mr. Turner, Mr. Stec, Mr. Brewer, Mr. Brower NOES: None ABSENT: None SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 07-22-2003 MTG. #31 470 Respectfully submitted, Miss Darleen M. Dougher