2002-09-17
(Queensbury Planning Board 9/17/02)
QUEENSBURY PLANNING BOARD MEETING
FIRST REGULAR MEETING
SEPTEMBER 17, 2002
7:00 P.M.
MEMBERS PRESENT
CRAIG MAC EWAN, CHAIRMAN
LARRY RINGER
ROBERT VOLLARO
ANTHONY METIVIER
JOHN STROUGH
CHRIS HUNSINGER
RICHARD SANFORD, ALTERNATE
SENIOR PLANNER-MARILYN RYBA
TOWN COUNSEL-MILLER, MANNIX, SCHACHNER & HAFNER-MARK SCHACHNER
STENOGRAPHER-MARIA GAGLIARDI
MR. MAC EWAN-The 26, 7 o’clock, the Planning Conference Room, workshop on Special Use Permits.
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Okay. Next Thursday night. Seven o’clock.
MR. STROUGH-There’s a workshop?
MR. MAC EWAN-A workshop regarding that memo for the Special Use Permits. Okay.
MR. VOLLARO-Mr. Chairman, I just have a comment on that. The last letter we received from Chris
Round asked for some of the Planning Board position.
MR. MAC EWAN-That’s why we’re having the workshop.
MR. VOLLARO-Should we be prepared to give positions at that meeting?
MR. MAC EWAN-Yes.
MR. VOLLARO-Thank you.
MR. MAC EWAN-Okay. Next item on the agenda is approval of minutes.
CORRECTION OF MINUTES
7/16/02: NONE
7/23/02: NONE
MOTION TO APPROVE THE MINUTES OF JULY 16 AND JULY 23, 2002, Introduced by John
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Strough who moved for its adoption, seconded by Robert Vollaro:
Duly adopted this 17 day of September, 2002, by the following vote:
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AYES: Mr. Vollaro, Mr. Strough, Mr. Metivier, Mr. Hunsinger, Mr. Ringer, Mr. Sanford, Mr. MacEwan
NOES: NONE
OLD BUSINESS:
SITE PLAN NO. 45-2001 TYPE: UNLISTED RUSS PITTENGER/WALLACE HIRSH
PROPERTY OWNER: SAME ZONE: WR-1A LOCATION: BIRDSALL ROAD EXTENSION
APPLICANT PROPOSES CLEARING AND GRADING TO FACILITATE DRIVEWAY,
PARKING, ACCESSORY STRUCTURES AND FUTURE SEPTIC AREA. THE PROPOSED
CUT IS 10,000 +/- CUBIC YARDS WITH FILL OF 5,000 +/- CUBIC YARDS WITH A
FINISHED ELEVATION OF 135 +/- FEET. SP APPROVED ON 1/16/02 WITH A
CONDITION THAT THE EARTH BE TRANSPORTED DURING THE MONTH OF MARCH
2002. REQUEST IS FOR EXTENSION OF PREVIOUS APPROVAL TO MARCH 30, 2003.
CROSS REFERENCE: SP 39-98 TAX MAP NO. 40-1-29, 30 LOT SIZE: 0.9 ACRES/SECTION:
179-16, 179-65
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(Queensbury Planning Board 9/17/02)
RUSS PITTENGER & WALLACE HIRSH, PRESENT
STAFF INPUT
Notes from Staff, Site Plan No. 45-2001, Russ Pittenger/Wallace Hirsh, Meeting Date: September 17, 2002
“
MR. MAC EWAN-Good evening.
MR. PITTENGER-Good evening.
MR. MAC EWAN-Staff notes, any, summary?
MRS. RYBA-No. There’s really nothing, other than what’s on the agenda, but I can summarize for you in
that this is just a request for an extension of time. A previous approval, there was a condition that the work
be done in March of 2002, and the applicant’s requesting to March 30, 2002.
MR. MAC EWAN-Okay. Good evening.
MR. PITTENGER-Good evening. Thank you for having us before the Board.
MR. MAC EWAN-For the record, you are?
MR. PITTENGER-My name is Russ Pittenger, and with me is Wallace Hirsh. We are the landowners
representing the project. The project was approved last winter with the stipulation that the work, the
transportation of the soil be done during the month of March when we the road was frozen. We were unable
to attract a contractor that would be willing to take this material at that time. Now there’s been some projects
approved in the area. We have people who are interested in material. We’d like for the Board to consider
allowing us to transport soil between October 1 and the end of March, although I think it would happen
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very quickly in the fall if we get that approval.
MR. MAC EWAN-Okay. Anything else to add? John?
MR. STROUGH-Now, yes, this is pretty cut and dried, but let me just go over a few folds. I think that, from
going from memory, that we wanted you to do your excavation work, or at least the Highway Department
suggested that you do your excavation work during the colder months when there’s a frost in the ground, so
there’d be less likelihood to be damage to the Birdsall Extension Road.
MR. PITTENGER-That’s correct.
MR. STROUGH-Okay. So, that being the case, am I to assume that, well, let’s assume that the frost will be
in the road the beginning of December.
MR. PITTENGER-That’s correct. I mean, we can assume that. I think what happened to us, and the reason
why we’re back before you for an extension, is that the work that we’re having done is at the discretion of
when the contractor actually needs the work, and although it may, it would be more beneficial for the road, it
seems that it’s unlikely that a contractor will be moving the material onto the site and filling it when there’s
frost in it, because then it doesn’t compact properly, and I think that what happened was that limitation,
although it’s certainly, it would be best for the road bed, it affected us so that we really couldn’t do the
project, and I’d like the Board to consider that. Birdsall Road is a fairly good road. Birdsall Road Extension
really was really just a top coat, and there was no gravel put under it. It was just really taking a top of it, and I
think that the equipment that will be used is suitable for work on the road, but I think (lost word) for the
quality of that road. So, it’s probably a Catch-22.
MR. STROUGH-Well, I understand your position, but I think we both agree that the Highway Department
recommended that heavy equipment not be on Birdsall Road until the frost set in, and then he felt that there
wouldn’t be any damage to the road if there was a frost in the ground, and a lot of times in the beginning of
December, and even into January, the frost hasn’t settled in that thick. So excavation work is frequently done
then, and on resolutions in the past it’s said that, just to make things and clarify things, that all proposed fill,
estimated at 10,000 cubic yards, be removed from site and no fill is to be deposited on the east side of
Birdsall Road, and that we said the resolution shall contain a letter from Stanley Koenig dated November 20,
2001. The excavation part of this proposal shall be completed by March 31, 2002. So all we have to do
tonight, from what I understand, is to set a beginning date and of course a completion date would probably
be March 31, 2003, and so forth, and this comes from, just to keep the record straight, the January 15, 2002
Planning Board minutes. Okay. Well, that’s all the notations I wanted to make at this time. We’ll see what
the rest of the Board feels. Thank you.
MR. MAC EWAN-Bob?
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(Queensbury Planning Board 9/17/02)
MR. VOLLARO-Yes. It was my understanding that while this application was in the process that Mr. Missita
was to be contacted and give us some additional information, and I guess that just hasn’t happened. So, to go
on what John picked up, in the minutes of the last approval, October 1 to March 30, between October and
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November, there isn’t very much frost in the ground, and I guess John has said it all with respect to the way
we put our motion together the last time, and I would just recommend that we ask you to do this from
December through March. That is a Town road. Is that a dedicated Town road? What sort of road is that?
Does Mr. Missita plow that road?
MR. HIRSH-It’s listed as a Private Right of Way.
MR. VOLLARO-Okay. And, this is?
MR. PITTENGER-That’s the road, and the material on the bottom of the pavement is native dirt. So it’s,
the Town road from, I believe ends at Birdsall Road, by the bike trail. Certainly, there’s no right of way to the
road. The Town did pave it, and they do plow it in the winter. They at least paved it last year.
MR. MAC EWAN-Is that a road by use, Mark?
MR. SCHACHNER-Right. It’s not correct. I think Mr. Hirsh said it’s a Private Right of Way. That can’t be
true. The Town, I don’t think it’s appropriate to call it a Town road by use because (lost words) dedication
(lost word).
MR. VOLLARO-On that basis, I would certainly like to hear from Mr. Missita as to where he stands on that
now, particularly if he knows that period requested is from October 1 through March 30. I would much
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prefer to see the date be December through March 30. I don’t have much else to say besides that. I just
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feel uncomfortable without some additional confirmation from Mr. Missita that this is okay with him. That’s
all, Mr. Chairman.
MR. MAC EWAN-Rich?
MR. SANFORD-No. I think I understand the issue. I don’t really have anything further to add, except with
the very warm winter we’ve been having lately, not by exception, but typical, I’m not sure you’re going to
have frost in in December either. So, I appreciate what you’re saying, but I’m not sure.
MR. VOLLARO-That was an arbitrary condition on my part, too.
MR. SANFORD-Yes. I mean, take a look at last winter. So, I’m not really opposed to your proposal.
MR. MAC EWAN-Larry?
MR. RINGER-For Staff, did they contact Rick, or the Highway Department?
MRS. RYBA-Yes.
MR. RINGER-But we didn’t get an answer, Marilyn? I don’t have a problem with it. However, if we do
grant the extension, I’d rather, if we could grant it with an approval from the Highway Department that this
extension would not present any problems to them or the road, if we could do something like that. Could we
do that, Mark?
MR. SCHACHNER-If you want to make that a condition of approval.
MR. RINGER-That’s what I meant.
MR. SCHACHNER-You’re saying condition with the Highway Department’s consent that the proposal does
not damage the road, or something like that?
MR. RINGER-Well, or would not have, I don’t know if I would want to put damage the road, but approval,
the Highway Department would approve the timeframe that the applicant has requested for removal.
MR. SCHACHNER-You could make that condition of approval. You want to understand that means, if the
Highway Department doesn’t consent, the applicant does not have the approval.
MR. RINGER-Right, and he’d have to come back and we’d have to hash it out again.
MR. SCHACHNER-That’s right.
MR. RINGER-It’s just that we had asked, we sat at the preliminary review, Bob and I did, and that was, we
had those comments then and asked Staff to get that from the Highway Department. I’m surprised that they,
they normally do come back, and this time they didn’t. We had asked for it a couple of weeks ago, and I still
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(Queensbury Planning Board 9/17/02)
think it was important at that time to ask, and I still think it’s important, but I don’t want to hold the
applicant up for another month if we can get that from the Highway Department, and I don’t have anything
other than that.
MR. MAC EWAN-Chris?
MR. HUNSINGER-I would go along with Larry’s comments. I didn’t have anything else to add.
MR. MAC EWAN-Tony?
MR. METIVIER-I was just wondering if we could make this any easier and table this for a week and get the
comments from Rick Missita, and that way at least we’ll know where we’re going to go with it. If he says it’s
okay, then we’ll know, but to approve it based on that condition, I mean, then, you know, the applicant might
be up in the air as to what he can actually do.
MR. RINGER-They’d have to come back next month, but if we could get it approved with a condition, and
then the Highway Department approved it, then the applicant doesn’t have to come back. If the Highway
Department doesn’t approve it, he’s going to have to come back anyway.
MR. METIVIER-Right. I was just thinking that next Tuesday’s agenda is so light that maybe we could
squeeze them in at some point. Because I’m sure that Rick can get back to us within a week with his
recommendation. Is that possible, or would you rather do it the other way?
MR. RINGER-That is a good thought.
MR. METIVIER-I don’t know what to add. It’s like, you’re damned if you do and you’re damned if you
don’t. If we, you know, the contractor doesn’t want to work when it’s frost, it’s never going to get done.
Every year we’re going to be back here with this application. So, if we can get some kind of.
MR. MAC EWAN-How many truckloads did we figure would be on that road? Does anybody remember?
MR. VOLLARO-It’s 10,000 cubic yards.
MR. STROUGH-Well, 10 cubic yards per truckload. So that’s 1,000.
MR. MAC EWAN-One thousand. Do you know of any reason why you didn’t get a response from the
Highway Department, Marilyn?
MRS. RYBA-Only that Rick is very busy and he obviously has other things going on. Typically, it is difficult
to get a response just because he does have a lot going on this time of year, especially, well, all times of year.
MR. MAC EWAN-Okay. Would you be inclined to want to do that, Russ, table this for one week and I’ll
make a phone call and see if I can’t ask him to respond to it?
MR. PITTENGER-Well, I’d be willing to. I’d just like to.
MR. MAC EWAN-We don’t want to belabor your efforts here, too, but by the same token, I’m hearing split
positions on this from October to December.
MR. PITTENGER-Last time we went around on this, I spoke with Mike Travis, and I have my notes here,
and he requested that the work be done when frost is in the ground to reduce the impact to the road, and I
remember calling to him and saying, well, it’s not really a great road. It’s (lost words). I do understand the
Highway Department’s concern about that, and I hope the Board can understand ours. Our original proposal
was to spoil 5,000 yards on site, without getting into the wetlands, and (lost words), and we’re really at the
mercy of the contractor and when they’re willing to take it, and since we couldn’t do it last year. We’d like to
do it this year. I certainly wouldn’t force the Board into a decision that they have some split opinions, and I
respect the Highway Department’s desire to try and reduce what impact it can on that road. However, we do
have a willing contractor that’s willing to that. We certainly would like to do that.
MR. MAC EWAN-And my thoughts are, if we granted approval on this extension and gave you from like
October 1 to March 31, and for some reason the road got tore up by all the truck traffic on it, who’d be
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responsible for resurfacing the road? Why should the taxpayers be responsible for it if it’s a private deal that’s
causing it? So I understand where the Highway Department is possibly coming from, but I wanted to put the
best case they can on it to make sure that any activity is going to be on it when it’s potentially at its strongest,
the road surface.
MR. PITTENGER-If we’re held to when frost is in the road, that project’s just not going to happen, I don’t
think.
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(Queensbury Planning Board 9/17/02)
MR. STROUGH-Well, we could play it safe. There’s certainly going to be frost in the road January 1. Can’t
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guarantee it, but it’s likely. We could say that we give our approval from January 1 to March 31 of 2003,
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and the applicant may do the excavation prior to that, subject to the approval of the Town of Queensbury
Highway Department. In other words, if they got the approval from the Town Highway Department, we’ll
put it in their hands, basically.
MR. MAC EWAN-It sounds reasonable.
MR. RINGER-Basically that’s what we said from the beginning.
MR. STROUGH-Yes.
MR. MAC EWAN-All right. Why don’t we take five minutes and you pen up the resolution. How’s that?
Take a couple minute break. Is everyone comfortable with that?
MR. RINGER-That’s fine with me.
MR. HUNSINGER-I was just thinking out loud. I don’t know how fair that is to the Highway Department
to put the burden of responsibility and liability on them.
MR. MAC EWAN-It’s not that you’re necessarily putting the burden on them. I mean, we asked for input
once before. So, I mean, understanding his plight, and what the Highway Department said previously
regarding the protection of the road with the frost in it, I mean, if the Highway Department takes a different
position and says, okay, you can start October 1 or November 1, and they’re putting their approval on it,
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what’s wrong with that?
MR. SANFORD-Well, Mr. Chairman, what I think I’m hearing from the applicant is it’s problematic to be
doing it really when the road has frost in it because the other parties aren’t going to be cooperating with your
efforts. So really, they’re really only interested, if I understand what they’re saying, is to do it before that. Is
that correct?
MR. HIRSH-Yes. They need it for work, and if they don’t have a project, they don’t need it.
MR. SANFORD-So I think the decision is, is there some way we can find a way around letting them do it
when the road isn’t frozen? And I guess, to what degree can you hold the Town harmless should that road
be damaged, or is that something you’re unprepared to do? I think you brought that up, if the road gets
damaged, it’s not appropriate for the taxpayers to shoulder that cost.
MR. MAC EWAN-Mark?
MR. SCHACHNER-This is one of the reasons you have the authority to request a road bond, if you want.
MR. MAC EWAN-I think going that route just even complicates it more.
MR. SCHACHNER-I’m not saying you should. I’m just saying you have the authority.
MR. MAC EWAN-No, I know that.
MR. VOLLARO-Mr. Chairman, I would just as soon, in my own opinion, wait, you know, as one of the
Board members said, I think it was Tony, to put this off for just one week, and make a sincere effort to
contact Mr. Missita, so that he understands what our concerns are, and go from there, as opposed to trying to
condition this, with a big long condition. I really think that I’d like to hear from him first, because I just don’t
feel comfortable with doing it any other way at this point. I mean, he’s had plenty of time to respond, too,
and I just don’t know why he hasn’t.
MR. MAC EWAN-Well, honestly, they’ve been very busy catching up on their paving here. I know that’s
kept them going. All right. Why don’t we do this.
MR. HIRSH-I’d like to ask a question.
MR. MAC EWAN-Sure.
MR. HIRSH-What if, A, he doesn’t get back to you, or, B, he says no, only when the frost is going, and then
we can’t get someone who needs it. Now are we stuck with this indefinitely? Basically it was sort of a fluke
that the road happened to be, they just happened to pave it from the time we made our initial application
until this whole thing got started because of a delay to get on the calendar here. If we had been able to get on
right away, there would not have been a question of paving, and again, it’s not much of a paving job. I think
they did it more or less just to make it easy for them to plow, because the people that are year round there
wanted to have the road plowed by the Town or they’ve been plowing it themselves, and the Town didn’t
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want to plow a dirt road. So the whole thing was, and I understand where you’re coming from, believe me,
but, again, it really puts us in a bind.
MR. PITTENGER-I think that if the Board would put it off until next week, that would be great for us, and
we’ll be happy to also talk with the Highway Department and see if we can hash it out. I think that’s the
technical issue.
MR. MAC EWAN-I’ll make a phone call tomorrow morning.
MR. PITTENGER-Super.
MR. MAC EWAN-I’ll make a phone call tomorrow morning. Somebody introduce the motion to table.
MR. PITTENGER-Thank you.
MOTION TO TABLE SITE PLAN NO. 45-2001 RUSS PITTENGER/WALLACE HIRSH,
Introduced by Robert Vollaro who moved for its adoption, seconded by Richard Sanford:
Until Tuesday, September 24 at 7 p.m.
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Duly adopted this 17 day of September, 2002, by the following vote:
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MR. MAC EWAN-Maria, in the morning, would you please make sure that Mr. Missita gets a copy of just
this portion of our minutes, just a draft of it, and I’ll call him in the morning.
MS. GAGLIARDI-Yes.
MR. MAC EWAN-Thank you.
AYES: Mr. Sanford, Mr. Vollaro, Mr. Strough, Mr. Metivier, Mr. Ringer, Mr. Hunsinger, Mr. MacEwan
NOES: NONE
SUBDIVISION NO. 18-2002 SKETCH PLAN BELL-NAV. DEVELOPMENT PROPERTY
OWNER: SARAH L. MC ECHRON AGENT: BOSWELL ENGINEERING ZONE: SFR-1A
LOCATION: INTERSECTION OF POTTER ROAD AND WEST MOUNTAIN ROAD (NE
CORNER) APPLICANT PROPOSES SUBDIVISION OF A 23.51 ACRE LOT INTO 19 LOTS
RANGING FROM 1 ACRE TO 1.81 ACRES, APPROX., 1,625 L.F. OF PAVED ROADWAY,
PRIVATE SEPTIC, PUBLIC WATER AND ELECTRIC. CROSS REFERENCE: NONE
FOUND TAX MAP NO. 301.5-1-28/90-2-8 LOT SIZE: 23.51 ACRES SECTION: SUBDIVISION
REGULATIONS
ED HORICK, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT
MRS. RYBA-This is a proposal to subdivide a 23.51 acre lot into 19 lots ranging from 1 acre to 1.81 acres
with 1625 (lost word) of paved roadway, private septic, public water and electric utilities. This application is
for Sketch Plan review and comment only at this time. The project does contain wild blue lupine which is
habitat for the Federal and State protected and endangered Karner blue butterfly species, and the State
protected frosted elfin butterfly. The applicant would prefer to develop the lots with this habitat. This
situation would require several levels of (lost words) approvals (lost words), and I think that’s really the crux
of the matter is looking at the Karner blue is one of the major aspects of this Sketch Plan review. So that’s a
primary concern at this time, is how to address the blue lupine on this site and possible presence of Karner
blue and frosted elfin butterfly species. The Town does not have any specific mitigation planned (lost words)
or protocols in place at this time (lost words) cost of mitigation. There are different habitat values, and I did
look at the Staff notes with Kathy O’Brien, a Wildlife Biologist with the Department of Environmental
Conservation from the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation, who is here today, and
the applicants are here as well.
MR. MAC EWAN-Thanks. Good evening.
MR. HORICK-Good evening. Good evening Board members. My name is Ed Horick. I’m with Boswell
Engineering. I’m here tonight for Sketch Plan review for the proposed Kings Court subdivision. The
applicant, Bell-Nav. Development, is considering purchasing this 23 acre parcel from Sarah McEchron. The
parcel is zoned SFR-1A, residential, minimum one acre lots. It’s located at the northeast corner of Potter
Road and West Mountain Road. Bell-Nav. Development is considering subdividing the parcel into 19
building lots. They propose to put in a roadway approximately 1600 feet long with a right-of-way of 60 feet.
All zoning requirements would be met with this proposed layout. The subdivision would be served by public
water, private sewer, electric and gas. As Marilyn stated, there are lupine areas on the parcel. I don’t know if
everybody has a copy. I imagine they do, but as you can see, they’re spread out. The majority of them look
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to be on the northeast side, and they would ultimately affect four building lots, mainly Lot 18, 8, 9, 10, and
11. It is my understanding, from talking to Kathy O’Brien with DEC, that these lupine patches can be
mitigated in some way. One way would be, obviously, leaving them on site and not disturbing them, basically
preserving them in place. Another possible alternative would be to donate money for future acquisition of
land that’s more valuable for, you know, preservation of Karner blue butterflies and also the Frosted Elfin. I
guess tonight I’d be looking for some direction from the Board as far as what alternatives are available or
what you might consider for this project. I think, from a developer’s standpoint, we would prefer to donate
monies to be used somewhere else, because, you know, they do affect four of the building lots. That’s not to
say that we can’t sell the lots, but, you know, it would obviously be easier to sell them if you didn’t have to
preserve a large area on the lot. So, Kathy O’Brien is here tonight. If you do have any questions, hopefully
she can answer them, but if you have any questions regarding the layout or what I’m proposing, certainly ask
them.
MR. MAC EWAN-Okay. Thanks. Bob, we’ll start with you, and I’ll the Board to keep questions directly
related to the site plan, and then we’ll have Ms. O’Brien come up here and discuss the Karner blue habitat.
MR. VOLLARO-As far the site layout is concerned, on the building restriction lines that we have there, are
those essentially no cut zones? Is that what you intended those to be?
MR. HORICK-No. The dashed lines on each of the individual lots, that would be the actual building
envelope where the building could be located.
MR. VOLLARO-Okay. Anywhere within that line?
MR. HORICK-Correct.
MR. VOLLARO-That answers the setback problems. Is that what that line is all about?
MR. HORICK-Yes.
MR. VOLLARO-Okay. Do you plan to dedicate this as a Town road?
MR. HORICK-Yes.
MR. VOLLARO-So it would be constructed to Town road specifications?
MR. HORICK-Yes, that would be done.
MR. VOLLARO-Looking that these are both on West Mountain Road, and on Potter Road, I’d probably
want to ask Staff a question. Do they have to be double the 150 foot requirement on this road, in other
words, the frontage?
MRS. RYBA-Not on Potter Road.
MR. VOLLARO-Not on Potter Road. So we’re okay. I guess the first question that we have, and most of us
are concerned about, is what to do about the threatened species on the property, and I think I’d like to hear
from Kathy O’Brien first, before I was to comment on it, because I’m certainly not an expert on Karner blue
butterflies or their plant food, which is blue lupine. So I’d like to hear from Ms. O’Brien before I make any
further comments on this.
MR. MAC EWAN-Okay. Rich?
MR. SANFORD-I feel the same as Bob. I have issues, but I think, at your direction, we’re going to wait on
the butterflies until we hear from the environmentalist.
MR. MAC EWAN-Right.
MR. SANFORD-So, I’ll pass.
MR. MAC EWAN-Larry?
MR. RINGER-The same thing. The site plan itself, a few questions, but the main issue is the butterfly, what
we’re going to do with that.
MR. MAC EWAN-Okay. Chris?
MR. HUNSINGER-About the only real comment I had on the proposed layout is, I just wonder if any
consideration was given to shifting the road toward the east, because, in looking at the lot sizes, those lots
that are on the eastern side are much larger than those in the rest of the subdivision. You have a number of
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lots that are exactly one acre, and it says plus or minus one acre. So that was really the only comment that I
had.
MR. HORICK-To answer your question, Chris, I believe we laid it out with all the zoning regulations in mind
and that was the best alternative we had was to show the road there. We can certainly look at it again, and see
if we can shift it more to the east. We had a couple of design requirements that we had to adhere to. One of
them, obviously, was the setbacks. Another one was the minimum road radius, 300 feet, and another critical
one was we had to have a minimum of 40 feet at the right of way, minimum frontage on the right of way, and
then the average lot width had to be 150 feet. So all those factors factored into the location.
MR. HUNSINGER-Yes.
MR. HORICK-So we can certainly look at it and you prefer shifting it to the east?
MR. HUNSINGER-Well, it was just an observation and comment. The only other question I had is, I found
it kind of interesting that some of the back lots actually, well, they front other roads, Little Road, West
Mountain Road being another. Is the intent at all the access would be off the new road? Or would there be,
or could someone, for example, put their driveway off Little Road?
MR. HORICK-I don’t see why there would be a problem coming off of Little Road. I thought we kind of
wanted, you know, to self-contain everything within the proposed roadway coming off of that.
MR. HUNSINGER-Sure. I mean, that would be my preference. That’s why I brought it up.
MR. HORICK-Right. I don’t believe we intended to come off Little Road, to answer your question.
MR. HUNSINGER-Yes. I mean, I certainly can’t imagine anyone who would want to see driveways on West
Mountain Road.
MR. HORICK-Yes, right. Well, we tried to stay right away from that.
MR. HUNSINGER-Yes. Okay.
MR. HORICK-Yes. We wouldn’t be proposing, I think, any driveways coming off of Little Road.
MR. HUNSINGER-Okay. That’s it.
MR. MAC EWAN-Tony?
MR. METIVIER-I guess my only concern, as far as the blue lupine, is if we even set up areas that we
preserved it, there’s no way to monitor that in the future, as far as if somebody built a home somewhere. I
can just see it being destroyed immediately. So I would be interested to hear what Kathy has to say about if
it’s possible to move it to a designated area, and, you know, preserving it somehow. I know in one other
instance we, I don’t remember what we ever came up with, but we did our best to preserve that area, and it
was the back of a subdivision. So, I’d like to hear what she has to say about it. Besides that, I mean, it’s
pretty much an easy subdivision.
MR. MAC EWAN-John?
MR. STROUGH-Okay. Now, what you’re proposing is 19 lots?
MR. HORICK-Correct.
MR. STROUGH-Okay. All right. So the project description you’ve got 17 lots, and then the letter dated
August 15 you’ve got 19 lots, and then the general information you’ve got 20 lots. So it is 19?
th
MR. HORICK-Yes.
MR. STROUGH-No. My immediate thought on this was that, okay, we’ve got some blue lupine. We’re
doing a site plan.
MR. MAC EWAN-We’re doing a subdivision.
MR. STROUGH-A subdivision. We should be able to cluster this and make out an agreement that would be
agreeable to both the applicant’s and the community’s concerns, but then I learned that we cannot cluster
under single family zoning. That doesn’t make me happy, because there’s going to be a lot of opportunities,
and we’ve discussed this on the Open Space Committee, where if there was a parcel that we would want to
preserve for historic reasons or aesthetic reasons or here to preserve a species, that we would cluster and
offer the landowner and the applicant, the developer, we could work together, but our hands seem to be tied.
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Now, Marilyn, does that mean there cannot be clustering here? Is there any way around that? Is there a
loophole?
MRS. RYBA-Just to clarify, when the Zoning Ordinance was revised, that was discussed, and when you were
looking to do that (lost words) cluster in the Single Family Residential zone, as opposed to is there something
in (lost words) some zones which allow one family housing that do allow clustering. Single Family Residential
(lost words) people in the community, and I think the majority (lost words) in that they wanted to see, here’s
a (lost words), here’s a house, you know, it’s the whole American Dream thing, rather than looking at a
clustering alternative. So at this point, are there any other possibilities (lost words).
MR. STROUGH-But (lost words) speaking, and both you and I know this, is that there’s a general trend
toward clustering and preservation, and I just think this runs contrary to, you know, the efforts of smart
growth people, etc., and the efforts of things that we’ve discussed in the Open Space Committee. It almost
takes a tool away from it, but again, they do have the option of possibly going to, after all is said and done,
and I don’t know how this thing is going to wash out, of coming up with a cluster plan and going to the
Zoning Board and see what happens there. I mean, that is a potential possibility. Right?
MRS. RYBA-It’s an option.
MR. STROUGH-It’s one option. All right. Well, like I said, I thought that would be an option. We’d be
able to preserve the area where we have some Karner blue habitat, and you’d be able to develop your
property, maybe even get more than 19 lots out of it. I don’t know how that would wash out, but I thought
that we would be able to work out something between the applicant and the community that would be to the
mutual satisfaction. Well, with that said and done, I’m just going to leave an open mind, as this thing
progresses, and see what develops, and so I don’t have any more site plan questions, Mr. Chairman.
MR. MAC EWAN-Okay. Ms. O’Brien, I guess the floor is yours.
MS. O’BRIEN-Thank you very much, Board members, for having me here. I’m a Wildlife Biologist with the
Department of Environmental Conservation, and the Endangered Species Unit. I’m an invertebrate
specialist. I work on butterflies and mussels and dragonflies and things like that, and I have been working
with the Karner blue butterfly since 1993 and Frosted Elfin since it went on our list in 1999. We are talking
about two butterflies, two species that are protected under State law, the Karner blue butterfly, which is your
Town butterfly, is protected under Federal and State laws in the endangered species. The Frosted Elfin is
protected under State law as a threatened species. They both share the same habitat. They both need the
blue lupine plants as food for their caterpillars. The adults will fly (lost words) other species, but the
caterpillars (lost words) the lupine plants themselves. So, in this area that’s there, is completely tied to their
food plant. If their plants are destroyed, then they end up being destroyed as well. The blue lupine plant is in
well drained, sandy soils, which is where it’s found (lost words). Most work, so far, of the Department has
been on the Karner blue butterfly, as it’s been on our list the longest. We have been working with US Fish
and Wildlife Service on a recovery plan for the Karner blue, and we’re also working on a State recovery plan.
In that recovery plan, we’ve identified places where Karner blue currently exists, and those are set down as
recovery (lost words) areas to preserve the sites that are there, and increase the habitat and the conductivity in
between the sites of habitat. Karner blue sites and Frosted Elfin sites have shrunk into these little tiny places,
in the long term they’re going to disappear, and that’s why these animals are on the protected list, just because
of the loss of habitat. Under the recovery plan, we’ve identify the area of the Queensbury sand plains as one
of the recovery areas. The Frosted Elfin needing the same kind of habitat that the Karner does is essentially
dovetailed into that. It’s not as badly off as the Karner blue, but it will be over the course of time because the
habitat is disappearing here in New York. So work that we’re doing on the Karner blue is also benefiting the
Frosted Elfin. Frosted Elfin, for some reason in their biology, have been able to hang on to sites that Karner
blues have died out of. They’re able to subsist in much smaller sites than the Karners have been able to.
Don’t ask me why. They just seem to be able to do that. So we have Frosted Elfin sites that don’t contain
Karner blues, and most of our Karner blue sites do contain Frosted Elfins. So, they’re really better than the
Karner blues are, at this point. This area over here, there’s lupine on site, and I first went out and looked at it
more than a year ago. I did see areas of lupine. Looking around a little bit more, I found quite a bit more,
and then suggested that they should have it looked at by someone who could go out and map it and (lost
words) went out and did that, and she found quite a bit more of it. When I went out and looked it over and
looked at the area of the map, it seemed to me that there was enough lupine to support the Frosted Elfin.
Because they have been able to subsist on much smaller sites. I don’t think it’s (lost word) to support the
Karner blue, but that’s not carved in stone. There have not been surveys for either species on the property.
The sites were laid out on the flat map here, so you could see how many sites have been taken up by the
habitat, just about an acre.
MR. HORICK-Yes, .94 acres.
MS. O’BRIEN-So there’s that area on the property that has potential for supporting Frosted Elfins. In our
recovery work, we kind of mapped out an area that, this is the map, the Queensbury Sand Plains recovery is.
The red areas are sites where there are Karner blues, essentially. That’s where there’s a lot of lupine, and then
the purple areas are where there are lupine sites. This is an older map, so it doesn’t show all of the areas, but
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(Queensbury Planning Board 9/17/02)
you kind of get the idea where we’re talking about, which is the area on the west side of Route 87 and east of
West Mountain Road. That’s West Mountain Road here, and there’s the habitat.
MR. VOLLARO-So there’s quite a proliferation of them in that area.
MS. O’BRIEN-There’s a lot of them over there. A lot of them are on the Niagara Mohawk power line
system that’s running through here. There’s a lot of lupine in the fire breaks for the City of Glens Falls
plantations, and then there’s a site that’s actually owned by the Town, the State Police Barracks has a site
there. There’s lupine on the area next to the Queensbury School, and there are Frosted Elfins on that lupine
that’s there, and that’s the area that we’re concentrating our efforts on. These are the power lines. You’ve
already seen this. The area that we’re talking about here, is over here.
MR. STROUGH-Okay.
MS. O’BRIEN-So it’s right on the edge of the recovery area.
MR. SANFORD-Where’s Potter Road?
MS. O’BRIEN-This is Potter here.
MR. SANFORD-Okay. So across the street from Potter, all those pines and sandy soil, that is also an
environment, or habitat environment?
MS. O’BRIEN-As far as I can tell, this is all sand.
MR. SANFORD-Yes.
MS. O’BRIEN-All through here, until it hits the Mountain Road here.
MR. SANFORD-Okay.
MS. O’BRIEN-That’s all plantation land, so it’s too shady for a lot of lupine, but that’s area that can be
managed.
MR. SANFORD-Okay.
MS. O’BRIEN-Except for things that are built on, essentially, a lot of area lends itself to management. It just
takes being able to do the management. In fact, we’ve been able to tear up some parking lots and make
habitat, actually. So something being paved doesn’t mean it can’t become green again. Does anybody want
to see this again?
MR. MAC EWAN-That’s fine. Thank you.
MS. O’BRIEN-So, I guess that’s the background. We are working on recovery in this area for both the
species, and the areas that we are concentrating on are a bit further to the east. As Ed said, we have discussed
what could be done with the habitat on this site, and obviously it’s the Town’s decision on what to do with
this, in this particular instance. This came up once before with the Curtis Lumber site where there’s habitat
down there, and we had several options that the Town could evaluate, and I guess that’s kind of the case
here, too. One of the options is to set the areas aside. Just setting them aside and not doing anything to
them will seal their fate, because they’ll grow over and they won’t be suitable for habitat anymore over time.
If they’re set aside with management and they can be perpetuated, that would take out those four units from
this housing development, with management, then they could be perpetuated as habitat, and then the other
option that we discussed was in some manner finding a way that mitigation for this area could go towards
something more useful in area where we’ve got more Karner blue, more lupine habitat and more possibilities
for connecting sites and making them bigger. I’ve been trying to get more information on that to be able to
discuss that with you. There’s a lot of things called mitigation banking and habitat banking that are too
complicated for me to try to describe right now, but that kind of mitigation banking seems to be a little
different from what we can do here. That’s what (lost words) on this land that you would need for an
endangered species, and then you can sell credits as other areas are developed (lost words) doing that with a
habitat in California, and another is in lieu of mitigation fees. If the Town wants to go that route, it will take
a lot more work to set it up, because to decide what the fees would be, the area that’s going to be removed,
and for what it would go for. They did this in the Albany Pinebush when areas are going to be developed,
and there are fees that go to the Albany Pinebush Commission. They also do this with wetlands. The Corps
of Engineers has mitigation for, if you take a wetland, you’re going to pay for wetlands to be established and
protected somewhere else. It would have to be, the mitigation would have to be set up so that, if there were
fees for destroying lupine habitat, that it would go towards protecting or creating habitat. It wouldn’t go
towards something else, and that’s the kind of thing that can be worked out. There’s ways to do that, without
getting into that in detail now. It would be something for more, some more discussion. I’m just trying to lay
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(Queensbury Planning Board 9/17/02)
out some things that have been discussed amongst me and the Fish and Wildlife Service and Boswell
Engineering. I guess what I can do now is if you have any questions, if I can answer them, I’ll try to do that.
MR. MAC EWAN-The first question I would ask you, are any of these other sites in Town under a
management program that you’re aware of?
MS. O’BRIEN-The only management we have thus far is what Niagara Mohawk does on the power lines.
Their management to keep the trees out has accidentally made it clear for lupine in a lot of the lines, not in all
of the lines.
MR. MAC EWAN-It’s not a dedicated program. It’s part of their maintenance program.
MS. O’BRIEN-No, it’s just an accidental. We’re hoping to finalize a management program for the State
Police barracks with the Town, for management there, but.
MR. MAC EWAN-Who would oversee that?
MS. O’BRIEN-That would be decided in the management agreement. Essentially what sites need is to be
kept open. So that may be just annual brush hogging, or it may be initially removing a lot of brushy stuff
that’s gotten in there in the last few years and then it would be much easier just to mow it later on. Right now
it’s kind of brushy in some places, but essentially keeping that, keeping the vegetation more open and in
general just protecting the site against (lost words) and things like that.
MR. MAC EWAN-Okay. This site here you don’t recommend as being a potential site to want to preserve?
You think that the site itself, in this case, is not worthy of pursuing?
MS. O’BRIEN-I wouldn’t say any site was not worthy of pursuing. The way I would couch it would be that I
think it would be more advantageous to be able to do something in the area where we’re trying to focus more
of our energies than out on the periphery. If we weren’t able to find a way to mitigate in this area, then I
wouldn’t want those areas to be completely lost, but if there was a way that that mitigation would work better
in the other area, then that would be my preference.
MR. MAC EWAN-Okay.
MR. HUNSINGER-You made a comment earlier about the habitat not being large enough to support
Karner blue. In looking at like this proposed subdivision map, I know it’s right in front of you, but if you
look at something like Lot 19 where you have, you know, 297 square feet, is that even worth worrying about?
MS. O’BRIEN-There’s, what, four lupine plants in that? Some of these areas, they’re drawn out to the edges
of where the lupine was.
MR. STROUGH-Right.
MS. O’BRIEN-But those are thick with lupine within them.
MR. HUNSINGER-Okay.
MS. O’BRIEN-If I had an area that was an acre in size, and we saw the lupine in the site, I’d be much more
anxious to keep it that way than for an area that’s got lupine kind of scattered all over it.
MR. HUNSINGER-Right.
MS. O’BRIEN-But individual, if I could manage it, and make it five lots of habitat, but.
MR. HUNSINGER-Well, I guess the question I really have is at what point is an area big enough to really be
concerned with trying to maintain or to steer development away from it?
MS. O’BRIEN-Some of that would depend on where it is. If this subdivision was happening in the area that
we’re most concerned with, that area pretty much between Sherman and Luzerne, and east and west of that
power line, then putting the area aside right there would make no sense, because it’s close enough to the
other site, even though it’s small, that it would function within all the habitat sites that are around there.
Because it’s way over on the side, it has less possibilities for that. It doesn’t have no possibilities, but it has
much less, and am I making it clear on that? If this was within the heart of where a lot of lupine, Karner blue
and Frosted Elfins were, then this wouldn’t be a discussion. This would be, these areas should be set aside
and protected. Because of where they are, then there’s the discussion of not setting them aside, but doing
something else about them.
MR. STROUGH-I almost see a need for a comprehensive management plan and run by somebody or a
committee. I mean, it’s come to the point where Queensbury’s a special place for this, and we need to
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(Queensbury Planning Board 9/17/02)
manage it, and of course you’re suggesting that funding come from applicants, but, you know, we have one or
two other projects coming before us in the near future that also has the lupine. So we could say to this
developer, all right, well, just give us a mitigation fee and go ahead, goodbye blue lupine, and the next guy, the
next applicant/developer comes before us, and we say, well, okay, well go ahead and develop it and give us
the mitigation fee, and so when all is said and done, we could end up with $50,000 and no Karner blue
butterflies.
MS. O’BRIEN-Right, and that’s why I was saying, where it is is more important right now than actually how
much lupine is there, because if it was over in that central area, I wouldn’t care how much lupine was on it,
I’d want it set aside because it would be functioning as part of the habitat that’s there now, but you’re right
that there does need to be a plan. We have been working on a State recovery plan that includes some of what
we’re talking about, where you have an Area A and B. Area A everything that happens in there needs to be,
to make habitat, and keep sites preserved. Area B, less strict but if there’s going to be mitigation, it can go
towards Site A sites, that kind of thing. You have priorities you set for those areas.
MR. STROUGH-Well, that’s what I would like to see, but I don’t see the priorities now.
MS. O’BRIEN-Not, now, only because we’re in the middle of making this recovery plan.
MR. STROUGH-I mean, I see the closest we’ve come, we’ve talked eastward. Okay. That doesn’t give me a
lot to go on, and I don’t want to destroy something, and you and I have talked about this before, and the blue
lupine, if they’re going to move from one area to the other, the habitats have to be kind of connected and
relatively close. I think you said that. So I don’t know what role this does or does not play in the movement
of the Karner blue habitat. I mean, I don’t know how this is connected in the scheme of their habits. It may
play a significant scheme, but I don’t know that. So if it did play a significant scheme, then we would give it a
priority, but until we do, it doesn’t probably take a high priority, and what you had said before is that areas are
kind of limited, and so you suggested, you didn’t suggest there wouldn’t be any Karner blue butterflies. You
suggested that it would be less than ideal for the development of a large number of Karner blue butterflies.
Did I read you right?
MS. O’BRIEN-Right, but it still has possibilities for protected species like Frosted Elfin. So it’s not like
there’s nothing that might be there.
MR. STROUGH-Right. Okay. So, again, I’m having a problem with the comprehensive nature of, and I’m
all for saving the Karner blue and all that, and I realize that it’s a duty us representing the community and the
state and federal government and all that.
MR. SANFORD-Well, John, let’s hear on that. That’s my question is are there parameters surrounding the
issue of endangered species, or is it so subjective and is it just at the discretion of these people who happen to
be here, as to whether or not we care to protect them, or are we somehow legally responsible in some way? I
mean, I’m getting a feeling that there’s not too much that’s certain in this whole discussion.
MS. O’BRIEN-Unfortunately the problem right now is we’re in the process of making the recovery plan.
With the recovery plan comes individual unit plans for each area that will be very specific and I want to work
with the Town, as we’ve been working with Wilton and with the Albany Pinebush, on specifically laying out
which areas would be don’t touch these, throw all the mitigation you can into there, and which areas are of
lesser concern or perhaps (lost word) on the ground but still are legally protected. Where there’s known
Karner blue sites or known Frosted Elfin sites or known any sites, those are protected under law. Because
these sites have the potential, and they’re in the region where these animals live, I’m going to say on that EAF
form there’s a question, is this going to affect the nature of a threatened species, and you look and see if
they’re there. The question can’t be answered no. That comes up with mussels all the time, with having them
do the mussel surveys under bridges, to see if there’s protected species under there, because they’re in this
watershed, and (lost words) confuse you with that, one of the options with these is to set these areas aside
with the surveys to see if they’re there, and if they are there, they’re protected under law. If they’re not there.
MR. SANFORD-Well, what does it mean, protected under the law?
MS. O’BRIEN-New York State law, you cannot take a threatened or endangered species without a permit
from the State. If there’s federal species there, then you need a federal permit as well. So taking would be
killing, destroying the habitat they belong to.
MR. HUNSINGER-So this developer will need a permit in order to do anything with the blue Elfin?
MS. O’BRIEN-If there was no populations there, they would need a permit from us. Because there’s
potential habitat there, this is more in the Town’s ballpark.
MR. HUNSINGER-Okay.
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(Queensbury Planning Board 9/17/02)
MR. MAC EWAN-So we’re at the stage, really, where there hasn’t been a survey done to define whether
Karner blue or Frosted Elfin are on that site?
MS. O’BRIEN-Right. As I said before, neither species has been looked for on this property.
MR. SANFORD-One follow up question, then I’m all done. You mentioned earlier how fees could
potentially be assessed to be used for good purposes elsewhere, however that works out, but my concern with
something along those lines would be, if that was done, then what degree would we be establishing a policy
that would have to be adhered to to the next site, or is it site specific and therefore perhaps again potentially
discriminatory?
MS. O’BRIEN-What I’ve read from a (lost words) is that we have a series of parameters that we have to set
up for something like this. So we wouldn’t just give the Town some money and say, this is for our site and it
gets absorbed into the Town. It has to be set aside for a specific purpose and there has to be parameters as
to who would have control and what would happen to that money. So we’d have enough money so we
wouldn’t have to decide which area that it would go towards (lost words) or the (lost word) habitat. There
would also be parameters as to what area, what geographic area that was acceptable in. As I say, this recovery
unit would go (lost words). We have the Zone A where we’d bend over backwards to protect those sites,
since we get more sites (lost words) and then Zone B where these sites are existing in there. The mitigation
for them would go towards Zone A, and that’s the kind of thing, again, it would have to be laid out ahead of
time, what would constitute being able to do this, and where it would go.
MR. SANFORD-That and also how difficult it would be to put a price tag to it and then be consistent in
application from one site to the other. I certainly wouldn’t want to charge one person, you know, $1,000 per
whatever unit and then another person $5,000 per unit. I mean, this looks like this would be a very
complicated process, so that it would be fair in application.
MS. O’BRIEN-As I said, I haven’t done this before, and I know it’s done. So there’s, this has been worked
out by some folks on how to do this, and that would be some more education, I guess. I’m not say that this
is what you have to do. This is one of the options is this project (lost words). The Nature Conservancy does
things like this, too. I know the Pinebush and (lost words) ten acres, they put money aside for twenty acres
and buy more habitat. (Lost words) for the wetlands, for the Corps of Engineers, it has to be at least as much
as you’ve taken. If you take an acre of wetland, you have to (lost words) at least (lost words), it depends on
the land values in the area that you’re talking about.
MR. HUNSINGER-And with the Army Corps, for example, it has to be within the same drainage area.
MS. O’BRIEN-Right. They want it in the same watershed.
MR. HUNSINGER-Right.
MS. O’BRIEN-They have a lot of step downs, when they first try to do a parcel (lost words).
MR. VOLLARO-Kathy, on a scale of one to ten, so I can quantify something in mind, how do you view this
site in terms of requiring preservation, on a scale of one to ten, ten being the lowest and one being the
highest? I mean, that’s what I’m, I’m trying to quantify in my mind how you feel about this site and whether
this site could be allowed to develop as the developer has laid it out, with some mitigation toward the habitat
areas, but right now, is it a one? It’s obviously not a one. You’ve said that, you know, the one would be a.
MS. O’BRIEN-We wouldn’t be discussing it if it was a one.
MR. VOLLARO-Right. We wouldn’t be discussing it if it was a one. I’m trying to get some feeling in my
mind as to how you feel about this whole potential habitat, and whether it’s worth doing or not, and if not,
the mitigation that has to be looked at, because obviously, you can’t just let it go.
MS. O’BRIEN-I guess if you want to put a number on it like that, it would be like a six or a seven, but it’s an
area that could be managed, Bob, if enough of it was set aside, and it’s not so far away. It’s not in the Town
of Moreau.
MR. VOLLARO-I have some feeling, now, for how you feel for that, in rating it at that level. Setting aside,
for example, Lots 8 through 11, to me, doesn’t make an awful lot of sense, and I don’t think it makes an
awful lot of sense from the developer’s point of view, either. These lots would remain vacant. I’m not sure
how they would be attended, but they certainly wouldn’t, somebody coming in to buy this to see four vacant
lots within the subdivision probably wouldn’t sell very well. I’m looking at it from the standpoint, now, of
the developer’s position as well as the preservation of the species. We’re trying to do a balancing act, I guess.
I guess I would be in favor of looking to the mitigation off site, and applying whatever that is to a much more
productive site, which you folks would be a lot more productive in terms of protecting the species, and letting
this site just continue like it is. Now John mentioned clustering and going off to ZBA and seeing if you can
get a variance to cluster. I also feel that clustering really doesn’t appeal to the developer, and I’m trying to
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(Queensbury Planning Board 9/17/02)
take the position of both sides here, and to force a developer to cluster on this lot, into maybe a quarter acre
per building, that just doesn’t sound right to me at all, from the standpoint of being able to sell it. So I think
my stand right now, based on your six or seven, is to let this site continue as it is, as it’s been proposed, and
then try to apply some standard mitigation to this, I believe the engineer said it was .94, is that correct?
MR. HORICK-Right.
MR. VOLLARO-And take that .94 acre value, whatever that is, and have the developer or the owner give that
value to an area that you think is much more productive in terms of protecting the species.
MR. STROUGH-If a survey rings positive for Karner blue on the site, you can’t develop it.
MS. O’BRIEN-No. Then the Fish and Wildlife Service becomes involved.
MR. STROUGH-And so we don’t know until a survey is done.
MS. O’BRIEN-Right. You cannot take an endangered species without a permit.
MR. STROUGH-Right.
MS. O’BRIEN-To get a permit, you have to do something. So with the US Fish and Wildlife Service, if they
were to grant the permit, they would have to look at it and see how this site has value to recovery and trying
to (lost words) and then there would be completion of what’s called a Habitat Conservation Plan, an HCP,
and that would include mitigation for whatever they would require to give that permit.
MR. STROUGH-So it seems to me that we could go the route that Bob suggested, if the survey read negative
for Karner blue and the Elfin, right, or at least the Karner blue?
MS. O’BRIEN-At least for Karner blue.
MR. STROUGH-So we almost have to get a survey and say yes or no before we can go Bob’s route.
MS. O’BRIEN-That’s one way to do this. If you want to have the folks wait until the survey is done in the
spring, to see if the Frosted Elfins are there, the Karner blue usually (lost words) go all the way into July to
check both broods at the sites.
MR. STROUGH-And possibly by the spring you might have a more comprehensive handle on this?
MS. O’BRIEN-We could, if we get (lost words) the Town’s Open Space Committee and the Conservancy
that would be players in that.
MR. MAC EWAN-Didn’t you say you were on the site in July?
MS. O’BRIEN-Me?
MR. MAC EWAN-Yes, someone was on the site in July?
MS. O’BRIEN-Yes.
MR. MAC EWAN-And didn’t see any butterflies?
MS. O’BRIEN-I wasn’t looking for Karners. I was trying to find the sites that they have, in fact, it was kind
of late in the season for Karner’s. I was just trying to find the site. I was trying to find the sites that they had
mapped. So I was going through there very quickly, just trying to see where they had set them up. I wasn’t
doing a survey. To do a survey you’d need to do the survey that we do ourselves. We’d have to visit the site
at least three times a week over the course of the whole brood, to make sure they’ve been there enough times
to see if they’re there.
MR. RINGER-And you couldn’t do that until July?
MS. O’BRIEN-Karner blues fly in June and July, and it’s very easy to miss animals in this very small
population. In fact, if I had my druthers, I’d say it should be at least two years. For a known Karner site that
we’re having, not finding butterflies anymore, we’re saying it’s five years before we say that they’re not there
anymore, but for the first brood, the second brood is larger than the first brood, usually. So you have more
chance to find them in the second brood than you do the first brood.
MR. SANFORD-There was a lot of yellow on that map that you walked by with. So I’d have to agree with
Mr. Strough’s earlier comments, that some form of management plan perhaps should be developed, because
this isn’t going to be the only site that we’re going to be dealing with this issue on, and if we don’t adequately
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address it now, we’re most certainly not going to adequately address the next one. So I actually, what I’d like
to hear from the applicant is your timeline, because if you’re not dealing with this in any sense of urgency,
then the type of time we’re talking about might afford the Town to work and move in the direction of getting
a better understanding of this whole issue, and it might coincide with this application. If, however, you’re
looking for something to do really soon, we probably have some issues here. So, what is your timeline?
MR. HORICK-Just discussing the situation with the applicant, that is Bell-Nav. Development, I know time is
ultimately of the essence right now, and the current owner’s in her 90’s. She’s getting up there in age. She’d
like to purchase the land and try to get something going with it. I’d have to ask them exactly, you know, we’d
be willing to wait and have a study done. I wouldn’t rule out, you know, him saying yes or no. I don’t know,
but I know we’re looking to get going on something with this site. He doesn’t own it, yet, but he would like
to own it and, you know, pursue it.
MR. STROUGH-Well, how about the, you know, eventually, or early on, at preliminary approval, and to hold
back approvals on Lots 8, 9, 10, and 11 until we know?
MR. HORICK-I think that’s fair, from what you guys have been discussing.
MR. MAC EWAN-We’re talking Preliminary only, but not Final, if we got to that point. Final approval
means you start cutting roads in and everything else.
MR. STROUGH-Well, they could actually cut the road, as long as they didn’t do anything with Lots 8, 9, 10,
11 until we get the survey on the existence of Karner blue there or not.
MRS. RYBA-Or Frosted Elfin, two butterflies.
MR. STROUGH-Right.
MR. SANFORD-Well, here’s a question that’s been touched upon but hasn’t been directly asked. Is it
possible that you’d be interested in doing this development leaving Lots 8, 9, 10 and 11 wild, and just having
a scaled down project?
MR. MAC EWAN-Maybe I’ll answer the question for them. From Kathy’s standpoint, she mentioned, if you
did that, it would be a death knell for them because eventually, if you didn’t have the management in it.
MS. O’BRIEN-If you didn’t have the management. If it included management.
MR. SANFORD-What does that mean?
MS. O’BRIEN-The lupine likes to have a lot of sunlight, and in the natural course of things, an open area
closes in with trees. So, management would be cutting back the trees and keeping the area open.
MR. SANFORD-There’s no management now.
MS. O’BRIEN-There’s no management now. That is correct.
MR. RINGER-If there’s no management now, what would happen, say, in ten years to this site if nothing
were done? Would the lupine be gone?
MS. O’BRIEN-Exactly the same thing that’s been happening with Karner blues across (lost words) range is
the habitat would be gone.
MR. SANFORD-Okay. Would the developer consider an abridged site plan, excluding those four lots, if it
came down to that, or does that make the economic feasibility of the program unworkable?
MR. HORICK-I know economics is a big part from a developer’s standpoint. I would have to consult with
him. I know, just from visiting the site myself, the majority of these plants seem to be located on ATV trails.
The land is posted. ATV’s run wild in here. Kids have parties. You probably wouldn’t even have any of
these lupine plants in here if it wasn’t for the ATV’s, unfortunately, and that’s another thing that we’re dealing
with. I’m not against lupine or supporting Karner blue butterflies. I’m all for it. I live right next to the
Pinebush, but I would like to make everybody aware that there are lupine plants on here, mainly because the
ATV’s keeping it open and (lost words) being able to grow in these trails.
MS. O’BRIEN-Essentially, that is the story with every single Karner blue site, is that, and with Frosted Elfin
sites, lupine sites is they are, where they are now is, from some manmade event, either the Saratoga Airport,
which is the biggest site that’s kept open, (lost words) all of that just accidentally happens to keep trees out,
and an area that’s set aside will grow in, but an area that’s set aside and managed will stay open.
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MR. METIVIER-If you took all the areas and condensed them into an area and managed that, let’s say you
took Lot Number Eight, it’s one and a half acres, and you took all the blue lupine from eight, nine, and
eleven, and condensed it into the one acre lot, and managed it, is that out of the realm of possibilities?
MS. O’BRIEN-No. Essentially, it’s not a matter of taking the lupine out. Digging them up is not really a
good way to do anything. They have really big taproots. So if you break that off, essentially, you kill the plant
down the road, down the line. The management would be to further clear an area, since these things are on
trails. There are a few places where there’s (lost word) openings that just haven’t closed in yet, and aren’t on
the ATV trails. Enlarging those openings and planting more lupine is more feasible than moving these plants
around, then you would essentially have to have an understanding that the lupine that are on the other parts
of the lots then would be left, and that would have to be clear to the new owners, as to whether or not that
they could do anything with those.
MR. STROUGH-And also, I didn’t mean to interrupt, Tony. Also, you and I were talking about this before
the meeting, Kathy, and I think it’s important that it become public knowledge, that Queensbury is, and
correct me if I get this misconstrued from what we said earlier, but only one of four sites in the State that has
the capacity to maintain the Karner blue and the Elfin species.
MS. O’BRIEN-At this point right now, Frosted Elfin has a little bit bigger range, so (lost words), Karner
blues exist in four clusters of areas in New York right now. There’s the Queensbury area, either side of
Saratoga Springs area of Wilton and then over by the Airport (lost words) area, and then down in the Albany
Pinebush, and it had a much larger range in New York, at least even as late as the 70’s it was out in Rome. IT
was out in Tonawanda. Both those areas have potential, down the line, to support Karners again, with a lot
more habitat work, but right now these are the only places we’ve got them.
MR. STROUGH-Okay, and at one time, from a newspaper article I have, Karner blues inhabited the New
England area as well, but now they’re extinct there.
MS. O’BRIEN-Correct.
MR. STROUGH-And we’re down bare minimum here.
MS. O’BRIEN-Right.
MR. STROUGH-So this is very important how we manage this.
MS. O’BRIEN-Right.
MR. SANFORD-Follow-up question. In Wilton, it’s very heavily being developed now. There’s a lot of
activity going on, and of course I’m not intimately familiar with it. Has this come up with site development
down there? And what are some of the things that have been discussed or remedies that have been
suggested?
MS. O’BRIEN-One of the things that’s going on down in Wilton is the Wilton Wildlife Preserve and Park. I
don’t know if any of you have heard about that. The State and the Town and the Nature Conservancy are
working, as partners, on creating a preserve there, not quite as large as the Albany Pinebush Preserve.
They’ve just kind of got the same goals because they’re a habitat for these open barrens type species. So
some of the areas that have Karner blues we’ve already purchased or hopefully are about to be purchasing.
We have a lot more potential for making, enlarging those areas and making connections. They are still lupine
sites and Karner sites scattered all over Wilton. So this is always coming up, and it’s kind of the same thing.
We have an area, this Wilton Wildlife Preserve and Park area, that we have our greatest concerns about, and
then there’s the lupine sites that are kind of peripheral whether or not they’re actually, sometimes (lost words)
along the railroad or something like that. Bigger sites like this one that has the potential for cross
development, those still exist, and those are protected under the law. So this same kind of thing may be
coming up there down the line, the same kind of mitigation into another area for sites that are too distant to
be part of the functioning population area.
MR. SANFORD-So there’s a model they’re following, of some sort. A person wants to do some kind of
building project and it’s a situation like this, and so there’s an organization and there’s some kind of exchange
of consideration, I’m sure, that’s used for this set aside.
MS. O’BRIEN-It’s going to come up, it hasn’t come up this way yet.
MR. SANFORD-I’m talking Wilton.
MS. O’BRIEN-Right. It hasn’t come up this way yet.
MR. SANFORD-So, are they approving projects until they decide what to do, or are they putting them on
hold or are they denying them?
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MS. O’BRIEN-They’ve been setting areas aside. Boswell Engineer had a subdivision site in Wilton where
there were two areas of lupine within the subdivision, and they set those areas aside. Those areas are within
the Wilton Wildlife Preserve and Park. So this situation hasn’t come up there in Wilton yet, as far as the site
that’s outside an area of focus, an area of concern, and that site being under development pressure. Correct.
MR. MAC EWAN-Does the Town of Wilton have a management plan?
MS. O’BRIEN-We have a strategic management plan for the local wildlife preserve and park that we’re
working on right now. We’re in the process of making a lot of plans right now.
MR. MAC EWAN-So do any municipalities who have these Karner sites in their townships have a plan, a
management plan or a fee plan in place now?
MS. O’BRIEN-The Albany Pinebush does.
MR. MAC EWAN-They have a management and a fee plan?
MS. O’BRIEN-The City of Albany, the Town of Guilderland and the Town of Colonie are members of the
Albany Pinebush Commission. So they have been actively involved in, not just sites with lupine, but pine
barrens habitat preservation and mitigation, and they actually have, in some instances, in other instances they
have a plan laid out where they have areas that are recommended for full protection, and the big fight, then, is
to keep those sites from being developed, and that’s where the town’s reviews are coming in. Sites for partial
protection, they’ve identified parcels for full or partial protection. That means that some development can
occur on those, but then they want to see the requested areas set aside, and that has been working for quite a
while. I mean, it is, it’s a highly developed area, obviously, and it’s getting much more development pressure.
That, at least, is the system, now, that’s in place that the towns and the city can use as guides in reviewing
these projects.
MR. MAC EWAN-About how long did it take either one of those, any one of those townships to put their
plans together?
MS. O’BRIEN-I don’t know. I know that they just recently redid their implementation guidelines, and that
took a couple of years, I think, but the Commission has been in place since I think 1987.
MR. MAC EWAN-What I’m seeing here is a couple of alternatives, on face value, just looking at this
subdivision application, knowing what other potential ones may be coming down the road, the alternatives
that I see we have right now is three things. We want to proceed like there’s no lupine on site, because it
hasn’t been verified whether it’s habitat for Karner blue or not. That’s one option. The second option is
preserving two or three of those lots on there, but without a management plan, what would be the advantage
of that, because over the years they’d overgrow and it wouldn’t be viable habitat, and the third one is for the
Town to come up with a plan, a management plan, and a fee structure that will allow the Town to develop
more potentially better sites of habitat, and a game plan of how we’re going to manage it, and that I see as
being a long ways a way. So what do we do with development applications that come in in the meantime?
Tell everybody we’re not going to do anything until we get some sort of plan in place? Where are we going?
Where is that in the pipeline, Marilyn?
MRS. RYBA-There really is a lot that’s going on in the background here. There are a number of things that
are happening. There is an Open Space planning committee. There are some recommendations. Kathy has
pointed out there’s a recovery plan which is in the New York State Open Space Plan, and the benefit of that
means that if lands become available for sale, and they have the Karner blue habitat, a valuable habitat, there’s
money available to purchase those lands from the State through the Environmental Protection Fund and the
New York State Bond Act. So that’s one thing. There are some things happening with the Queensbury Land
Conservancy, and the Queensbury Land Conservancy has indicated that they would be available to act as a
project coordinator, hold the funds. They’re working with some different organizations, or speaking with
different organizations at this point to look at some habitat preservation. So there really is quite a bit going
on. In terms of a management plan, the Town got a good head start in 1997, as part of the Curtis Lumber
mitigation, which was to do a survey. That survey looked at all the parcels in the Town and identified which
ones actually have Karner blue on the site, which would just contain (lost word) blue lupine habitat. Of
course that being six years ago now, I don’t really know how valid that is, but it is something that we have in
our GIS system, Geographic Information System, so that we can, when a parcel comes forward for
development, we can do that overlay and see if it’s been identified as Karner blue or blue lupine on site. So,
we’re in proceeding with a number of things. So there are options. We don’t have a management plan, but
Staff has been doing some research. We do have a copy of the Pinebush Commission plan. We have talked
with all of these other folks. I think what’s a little bit different, and Kathy pointed out, with Wilton, for
example, they have the partnership with the State and with the Nature Conservancy. The Pinebush
Commission was set up through the State legislature, I believe, and Mark can correct me on that, to protect
that. So there’s a different type of partnership going on, and there’s a different type of funding to proceed
here. We’re really, I think, some things are coalescing, but nothing has really come to a head yet, but what
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that does provide us are quite a few different options. We can get together a management plan, and it may
not really be all that difficult at this point, because part of that 1997 study did indicate, I think, seven areas of
the Town that would probably be more likely to be utilized for preservation than others, and we do have that
mapped out, and we do have an idea of what the vacant parcels within those areas are, so that if there was a
possibility of a for sale type of thing, if we could buy something there, and we do have an organization, a
private, non-profit organization that’s willing to take on some of the task of doing some of the, I’m not sure,
I might be misspeaking, because I got this information from somebody else who attended a meeting who said
that I could go ahead and say it was okay, the Queensbury Land Conservancy would be involved. I’m not
sure which degree of management that would do, but they would just be, a lot of these non-profit
conservancy organizations, they work as, they might be temporary holders until they find a more permanent
type of management entity. So, it’s not a real direct answer to your question.
MR. MAC EWAN-No, because my next question was going to be, where do we go from here.
MRS. RYBA-Where do we go from here. There are quite a few options, and, boy, and I purposely didn’t
start listing a whole lot in the Staff notes because I didn’t want your Staff notes to get really long, and second
because it’s important that you heard a lot of this background so that you get some understanding and some
education on this, but part of the options I think include, you know, part of your SEQRA, because this is
coming under SEQRA in the SEQRA review, and so when you start looking at some of those type of, some
of the parameters under SEQRA and what you should be looking at, that might be helpful to you in figuring
out where to go, but of course there is.
MR. MAC EWAN-We need to have some sort of direction. I mean, the way I see it right now, if we got into
this Preliminary subdivision and we did a SEQRA on it, it’s going to stop dead in its tracks.
MRS. RYBA-Right.
MR. MAC EWAN-So, the alternative is, if we get to that point, what would be the mitigation measures for
this thing?
MR. SCHACHNER-Can I throw this in here?
MR. MAC EWAN-Sure.
MR. SCHACHNER-I think, I mean, I’ve been involved in a number of similar issues involving Karner blue
habitat elsewhere. I think that I’m going to, in large part, echo something that John was getting at earlier.
Obviously part of my job is to make sure that your decisions are as defensible as possible. In order to do that
you’re, essentially, legally charged with making the most informed decision possible. That’s not a legal
standard per say, but that’s what it boils down to in a lot of instances. It seems to me that you’re missing a
very vital piece of information here, because it’s a legal distinction between habitat at which an endangered
species exists, and potential habitat that might be able to support an endangered species. What many, I can’t
say all, but what many applicants do when they have potentially sensitive or endangered or threatened species
habitat is they do the survey, so that the municipal body making the decision is making the most informed
decision possible. In other words, you have one situation is, an applicant can say to you, we’ve done the
survey and there are no butterflies here. You have a different situation if you have an applicant saying, we’ve
done the survey, there are butterflies here, and here you have a situation where you have an applicant that
hasn’t done the survey. Now it is true, and doing a survey here is not as easy as doing other surveys because
of the limited window of opportunity, but the communities that Ms. O’Brien has referred to, in the Capital
District and Wilton and elsewhere that have faced decisions before have typically required the survey to be
done, and if it happens to be, you know, if you’re in in May, and you’re having the discussion with the
Planning Board, then it’s easy for the Planning Board to say, do the survey, we’ll see you in August. If you’re
in in October or September, as they are now, it may seem more onerous to say that to an applicant, but, you
know, an applicant does have a number of options. Take those lots off the table, as Rich and other people
asked, is a possibility, have some sort of conditional review that says, for the time being, at least, those lots are
off the table, or arm you with a critical piece of information that you don’t have right now, which is have a
qualified Wildlife Biologist do the survey at the time that it has to be done in order to say to you, yes, we have
habitat, no we don’t have habitat, or, yes, we have species, no we don’t have species, I should say, not habitat.
Because you’re absolutely right. If you did the SEQRA review today, we reach a dead end when we come to
the question that Ms. O’Brien refers to, which is, will the proposed impact have any impact on threatened or
endangered species. We don’t really know.
MR. VOLLARO-Well, Mark, I guess in answer to that, I have written something down in asking the time to
do the survey of this particular site in order to classify this habitat. Now, I think, that’s, to my mind, the only
logical path here. I don’t see setting aside these lots, knowing a little bit about how builders feel about that,
and having to go back to that, they would like to complete a full area. I think the big thing we need to know
is what is the classification of this site. Is it real serious habitat?
MR. SCHACHNER-That’s what John was saying earlier. I’m indicating that that would certainly help you
make your decision. Understand that, in order to have that survey done, you can’t do it now. You have to
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(Queensbury Planning Board 9/17/02)
wait until May, June, July, August timeframe, and, I mean, that’s fine. The law certainly supports doing that.
I don’t think, for what it’s worth, that it’s necessarily incumbent upon the Board to make the decision on
behalf of the applicant whether the applicant wants to proceed without those lots. I mean, I think in fairness
to the applicant, if the applicant wants to do that, that’s a way to proceed.
MR. SANFORD-Absolutely. I agree.
MR. VOLLARO-I guess I would ask a question, that if we set aside Lots Eight, Nine, Ten, and Eleven to do
that, and construction began to take place along this road, first they’d have to put this road in, excavate this
out, and if you’ve been on excavating sites, you know what that looks like, where guys with backhoes would
put stuff anywhere they can put it. You’re not going to have somebody say, Karner blue, don’t touch that.
That’s not going to happen. So I’m not so sure how sites eleven, ten, nine, and eight will survive the building
site.
MS. O’BRIEN-There would have to be some kind of fencing around it, some of that orange type of.
MR. VOLLARO-Dust and things like that on work sites won’t bother them at all?
MS. O’BRIEN-If it’s right up to the, yes. There should be some kind of buffer away from (lost words).
MR. VOLLARO-When you’re cutting that road in, there’s going to be some considerable disturbance of
ground.
MS. O’BRIEN-They can leave the buffer of trees at some point in there, but you’re right, it is starting to
disturb the site, and it’s not as preferable as the site remaining as it is.
MR. VOLLARO-I’m just trying to put this whole thing on balance as to what’s classified as habitat, and once
we do, maybe do we go into a mitigation routine and say, okay, we’ve got .94 acres of this site that is classified
as honest to goodness habitat and butterflies are there, and the applicant’s going to have to put up some cash,
if you want to say that, to go to a much better area that you have in mind.
MS. O’BRIEN-Right, or the Town can decide, well, if they’re there, then the State has a role in that.
MR. VOLLARO-Sure.
MS. O’BRIEN-They can decide if it’s better to have the lot set aside than damaged, or if the Town wants to
develop this other mitigation.
MR. SCHACHNER-Right, but, Bob, just understand, make sure we’re all understanding that answer. If
they’re there, there’s a permit requirement. It’s not only at the State level, but it’s also at the Federal level. So
if they’re there, this Board doesn’t have the authority to say, unilaterally, to say, okay, go ahead and develop it
and we’ll impose this mitigation thing. You have to involve the State and the Federal agencies.
MR. VOLLARO-First it’s got to be classified. You’ve got to know that first. That’s the first step, are they
there or not there, and then we can go from there, but right now I think we’re at an impasse, until we know.
MR. SCHACHNER-Right, which is essentially what I was saying and what John was saying a while back.
MR. HUNSINGER-So let me get this right. We could set up a mitigation plan right now, and wouldn’t
require any State or Federal permits, but if they were to do a survey and find that there were indeed blue
lupine on the site, then our hands would be tied. We couldn’t do anything?
MS. O’BRIEN-It’s the animals, not the plants.
MR. SCHACHNER-Not the blue lupine, the Karner blue butterfly.
MR. HUNSINGER-Right. I’m sorry, the Karner blue.
MR. SCHACHNER-And that’s why there’s a cart/horse issue here, which I think is what you’re getting at.
MR. HUNSINGER-Exactly. I mean, it just doesn’t make sense to me, intrinsically.
MR. SCHACHNER-Which is why it’s not necessarily the case, the first thing you said, Chris, is we could set
up a mitigation plan now. One could argue that, I’d be uncomfortable with that as your Counsel, because of
the prematurity of it, because you don’t have your information as to whether a species actually exists on the
site.
MR. HUNSINGER-I guess my point is, not knowing if there are Karner blues on the site, we can go ahead
and make decisions that may, indeed, impact the Karner blues that are supposedly to be protected, whereas if
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(Queensbury Planning Board 9/17/02)
you do the survey and you find that they are there, then we can’t do anything, without the State and Federal
permits.
MR. SCHACHNER-But I’m not, what I’m saying as your Counsel is that I’m not so comfortable with the
first part of what you said that you can go ahead and make decisions that may impact the butterflies, because
you don’t know if they’re there. I’m saying, I would be wary of making a decision now. For example, you say
mitigation measures, I would be wary, as your Counsel, of advising you to go ahead and approve something
with a mitigation plan now in place now, that allowed complete build out of the site, because you may end up,
you might be authorizing a taking of an endangered species, without any of you doing that because you didn’t
know that the endangered species, whether it’s there or not. Am I making sense?
MR. HUNSINGER-Well, I think we’re saying the same thing, really.
MR. SCHACHNER-Okay. Yes.
MR. HUNSINGER-It just doesn’t make sense to me that decisions could be made today, without that
knowledge, and that would be perfectly acceptable to the State and Federal government, unless someone were
to challenge it.
MR. SCHACHNER-I agree.
MR. SANFORD-What do you want to do, Mr. Chairman?
MR. HORICK-I had one question.
MR. MAC EWAN-I have one for you. You go first.
MR. HORICK-All right. If we do go ahead and have this survey done, and none of the species are found,
and we go before a SEQRA and, you know, we state on there, there were no species found, are we, can we
legally, you know, disturb these areas, go ahead and disturb them, even though there were no species found
there? Is that our right to do that?
MR. MAC EWAN-Well, I think that’s going to be her question. That wasn’t my question. That’s for Kathy.
MR. HORICK-I guess, do we have to set aside these areas permanently?
MS. O’BRIEN-If there’s an appropriate, thorough survey, and it does not come up with the butterfly, now
there’s habitat (lost words).
MR. HORICK-Yes, I understand.
MR. SCHACHNER-And I just want to make sure that for the benefit of the Board you understand that, and
I’m not suggesting you do this, I’m just making sure you understand the range of your authority. You would
still have an authority, under SEQRA review, if you felt that preservation of the habitat warranted it, you
could impose conditions requiring preservation of the habitat, but legally, under the Endangered Species Act
at both the Federal and State levels, the applicant would not be precluded from developing this site.
MR. VOLLARO-I think the key thing I got from that, it’s the animals we’re protecting, not the plant. It’s the
animals that we’re concerned.
MS. O’BRIEN-The animals have the legal protection.
MR. VOLLARO-Okay. That certainly is a key piece of information in my book anyway. We’ve got to
determine whether the animals are there or not there.
MRS. RYBA-Could I ask a question, just for clarification, (lost words) Kathy, but, that 1997 survey that was
done, it’s my understanding that that could change, so we can use that survey as an indicator, but we don’t
necessarily use that to make determinations, exact determinations?
MS. O’BRIEN-Michael wasn’t looking for Frosted Elfins in that survey. He was looking for Karner blue,
and one visit is not a good survey.
MR. HORICK-I guess another question for Kathy, if we do survey the property, or the areas, is this a month
long survey? Obviously, you can’t go out there and just, you know, survey for one day and say, you know, yes
there is, no there isn’t. Does it go the span of one month?
MS. O’BRIEN-The proper surveys, that surveys that we do, ideally they’re every day. That usually isn’t
physically possible (lost words), but at least three days a week for the length of the brood is how we do
surveys. That’s how we did it in Wilton. Boswell actually paid for the portion of the time of the person that
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was surveying for us to go to those sites, and they did the same surveys that (lost words). The Frosted Elfins
would be from the beginning of May to about the middle of June. For Karner blues it would be from the end
of May to the end of June, and then from about the second week in July.
MR. HUNSINGER-Now, assuming, like say you go there the first day and you find something, now, do you
then stop the survey because you have found something?
MS. O’BRIEN-It ends there, because that’s presence.
MR. HUNSINGER-Okay. That’s what I thought.
MS. O’BRIEN-If you want to keep doing it, you could maybe get a nice estimate of how many are there, but
that’s enough, one is enough.
MR. HUNSINGER-Okay.
MR. MAC EWAN-When these surveys are done, they’re done by someone from DEC?
MS. O’BRIEN-What we do is we contract people to do surveys for us. If this was to be done properly,
essentially.
MR. MAC EWAN-For any applicant to ask for a survey to be done, they’d go through DEC?
MS. O’BRIEN-No. They could have their own person do it, but I would prefer that we had veto power. We
want to know that the person knows what they’re doing.
MR. MAC EWAN-Well, I mean, yes, what’s the criteria for someone to do a survey?
MS. O’BRIEN-The person is qualified to know what a Frosted Elfin looks like.
MR. MAC EWAN-Do they have to be a biologist or something like that?
MS. O’BRIEN-They don’t have to be a biologist, but they.
MR. MAC EWAN-Or could you call a local temp service and get one?
MS. O’BRIEN-We use college students, but, you know, they need the basic training.
MR. HUNSINGER-I was going to say, my younger brother actually did spend a couple of summers doing
some surveys.
MS. O’BRIEN-Are you Todd’s brother?
MR. MAC EWAN-I mean, I guess what I’m trying to drive at here, I mean, what I’m driving at here is what’s
the caliber of the surveyor doing the survey?
MS. O’BRIEN-The most important thing for the surveyor to do is reliably go to the site. They have to be,
they can’t be color blind, and they have to be able to walk around a lot, but those are your basic necessities,
then they have to have seen the animals that you’re sending them after. So they either have had to have prior
experience with them, or you have to wait until the brood starts and take them to a site where you know they
are, and show them. That’s what we do with our people. Because we pay them such a pittance that we can’t
get the same people year after year, but it’s not a technically difficult thing to do, where you need a biology
degree to do it, and it’s just, the person has to go to the sites and do the survey. That’s the most important
thing, and know what they’re looking for.
MR. RINGER-If someone other than your organization does the survey, and then it comes to us, and then it
goes back to you and you guys look it over, correct?
MS. O’BRIEN-We’d want to see the results, yes.
MR. RINGER-Right.
MS. O’BRIEN-See all the dates that they were there and the times they spent there.
MR. RINGER-Right.
MS. O’BRIEN-The Nature Conservancy does some contracting for that.
MR. MAC EWAN-Do you have a list of people available who you would recommend?
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(Queensbury Planning Board 9/17/02)
MS. O’BRIEN-I have people that they could talk to, but essentially we advertise for college students every
year, and they do them. We could train them for them, in conjunction with our own.
MR. MAC EWAN-It’s a curious thing more than anything else.
MR. SCHACHNER-That’s fine. I just want to make sure you understand that everything she’s talking about
is through the State, but private applicants with private consultants do this all the time, and private
environmental consulting firms do this all the time, and they run the results by DEC, and typically DEC, you
know, accepts the results.
MS. O’BRIEN-Right. There are several consulting firms that are doing this every year for similar outfits.
MR. SCHACHNER-Including several local ones, relatively local ones.
MR. MAC EWAN-Okay. Any other questions or comments? Our consensus is that we direct to want to see
the survey done.
MR. VOLLARO-Correct.
MR. RINGER-To go to Preliminary.
MR. VOLLARO-I don’t think there’s any other path. I don’t think we else that makes sense, to me.
MR. MAC EWAN-Do you think, Marilyn, between now and when the survey is complete that we would
have a management plan and a fee schedule?
MRS. RYBA-I think part of that depends on what the results of the Town budget is, that’s a crucial aspect.
MR. MAC EWAN-You lost me on that one.
MRS. RYBA-Because doing the management plan, it depends to what degree you want to do it. I mean, this
one that was done by the Pinebush Commission cost $37,000, but if we do something simpler, which we take
the 1997 Michael Batcher study and we have (lost words) and we use our own GIS, we can come up to some
degree of, here’s priorities, but then I’d still have to go through, well, how do you want to utilize that. Do
you adopt it as policy? Do you adopt it as guidelines? Do you adopt it as Karner blue comprehensive plan?
Do you put that into zoning regulations or subdivision regulations. So there’s that aspect of it, too. So I
think it’s going to (lost words) some discussion on the part of your Board and your Town Board as well as to
what degree that they want to see something done, and what is the cost to do it. We can certainly have
something.
MR. MAC EWAN-I see we’re at that point in our Town that we need to be proactive instead of reactive on
this and get something that works, because as development continues along here and we know of some other
potential development sites that are out there, it’s going to impact those as well.
MRS. RYBA-And the developers I have talked to have all said, we would much rather know what your
protocols are and where we can go. It would help us immensely to know.
MR. RINGER-We would, too.
MR. MAC EWAN-It would help us as well, yes. It’s time we lobby the Town Board, then, isn’t it? Okay.
MR. HORICK-Can I ask one other question?
MR. MAC EWAN-Sure.
MR. HORICK-Do we have an option of possibly setting aside a lot for the preservation of lupine and, you
know, going ahead with our design, and, you know, when the survey comes up, and if they do or they do not
find the species, you know, we’ll have an area preserved for that. Do we have that option available to us?
MR. MAC EWAN-My position, this is my position, is I don’t want to see any development on that parcel
until we determine what the survey’s going to show.
MR. HORICK-I’m just asking if we can proceed with design, you know, possible to the Preliminary Stage
and coming in to propose that to the Board.
MR. RINGER-We’d have to do SEQRA on the Preliminary, and so we couldn’t do it.
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MR. MAC EWAN-It would stop there. You wouldn’t even get an approval for Preliminary. We’d be dead,
stopped in our tracks with the SEQRA application.
MR. HORICK-So, until the survey was done.
MR. MAC EWAN-Yes.
MR. SCHACHNER-Unless you left off all four lots.
MR. RINGER-Well, they’re in other areas besides those four lots, Mark. They’re still in some other areas.
MR. SCHACHNER-I didn’t know that.
MR. SANFORD-Just a couple of minor lots have them.
MR. RINGER-Minor, small ones, but they are in other areas.
MR. SCHACHNER-All right. I didn’t know that.
MR. MAC EWAN-That’s the dilemma we’re in.
MR. HORICK-And I understand your dilemma.
MR. MAC EWAN-As was just mentioned, I know there’s going to be more applications coming in, in the
next few months, that we’re going to be in the same boat. We’re going to be in the same boat.
MR. RINGER-One of them’s waiting on you, what happens with your application.
MR. MAC EWAN-Well, on behalf of the Board, I’ll certainly try to lobby with the Town Board to loosen up
the purse strings to get some money set aside so we can get this management plan program underway.
MS. O’BRIEN-I just want you to know that I am eager to work with the Town on this and that’s part of my
function.
MR. MAC EWAN-We’ll take you up on your offer, I’m sure. All right.
MS. O’BRIEN-If you have any questions, don’t hesitate to call me. I may be in the field, but I’ll get back to
you.
MR. MAC EWAN-All right.
MR. RINGER-Thank you. There’s no public hearing?
MR. MAC EWAN-No, not on Sketch.
SUBDIVISION NO. 16-2002 SKETCH PLAN STAGE MICHAEL CANTIELLO PROPERTY
OWNER: JANICE BISHOP AGENT: VANDUSEN & STEVES ZONE: SFR-1A LOCATION:
RIDGE AND CRONIN ROADS APPLICANT PROPOSES SUBDIVISION OF AN 8.47 ACRE
PARCEL INTO SIX (6) LOTS OF 1 ACRE, 1.01 ACRE, 1.10 ACRE, 1.02 ACRE, 1.48 ACRE, 1.33
ACRE AND 1.53 ACRES. CROSS REFERENCE: NONE FOUND TAX MAP NO. 297.14-1-3/59-
4-1 LOT SIZE: 8.47 ACRES SECTION: SUBDIVISION REGULATIONS
MATT STEVES, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT; MICHAEL CANTIELLO, PRESENT
MR. MAC EWAN-We won’t wait for Staff notes, Matt, jump right into it.
MR. STEVES-Okay. Good evening. My name is Matt Steves from VanDusen and Steves, and I represent
Mike Cantiello in this application. What is before you is a parcel of property that is on the south side of
Cronin Road and on the west side of Ridge Road. It (lost words) right now as a single family home, and what
we’re proposing is to take that lot, put a house on the lot, and we has six more lots, for a total of seven. This
is in an area that the zoning is double lot width on arterial drives. So the four lots that would front on Ridge
Road would be two lots would share a drive, the northerly lots would share a drive and the southerly lots
would share a drive, and the one located in the south on Cronin, and the two westerly ones would share a
driveway, and then the last lot there, at the northeast corner, has the sufficient road frontage of 300 feet to
accommodate its own driveway.
MR. MAC EWAN-Is that it?
MR. STEVES-That’s about it.
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MR. MAC EWAN-Larry, I’ll start with you. This is just sketch, and looking it over, one of the things I, when
we rode by it, and you’re going to get a question further down the line, there’s a stone wall there on Cronin.
Does that have any historic value or anything?
MR. STEVES-No.
MR. MAC EWAN-What do you base that on?
MR. CANTIELLO-It was an old farm at one time.
MR. MAC EWAN-How old is old?
MR. STEVES-Well, I don’t know the exact date, but I can maybe try to find that out.
MR. MAC EWAN-My guess is it’s got historical value.
MR. STEVES-The building maybe. I don’t know if the State regulates walls or not. You might have to refer
to Counsel on that. I don’t believe they do. Buildings and structures. I can certainly check on the wall.
MR. MAC EWAN-Okay. Anything else, Larry?
MR. RINGER-No, I didn’t have anything else on the development. That’s all.
MR. MAC EWAN-Chris?
MR. HUNSINGER-I didn’t have anything, other than what was commented on in Staff notes, the driveways
and vegetation.
MR. RINGER-This is just Sketch.
MR. STEVES-Correct.
MR. MAC EWAN-Tony?
MR. METIVIER-No, I really didn’t have anything either. I just was going to bring up the wall, but I’m sure
that Mr. Strough will be doing that.
MR. RINGER-You think he saw that?
MR. METIVIER-I’m pretty sure.
MR. MAC EWAN-Well, Strough, your turn.
MR. STROUGH-Well, Friends of the Quaker Cemetery, and I’ll bet you that wall has some old history to it,
but I wouldn’t think that the applicant would have a problem trying to maintain that, but you’ll check into
that.
MR. STEVES-We’ll check into the historical value, but as far as the driveway, the curb cut that is there now
and the house lot, that’s the one that’s going to be used for those two lots, and then the rest of them will be
utilized, it’s just a nice asset to have in the front of your property. We wouldn’t want to remove it.
MR. MAC EWAN-Especially if you can brag that wall’s been there for 150 or 170 years.
MR. STEVES-That’s true. All efforts will be made to preserve the wall.
MR. STROUGH-Okay, and just one other note, I didn’t have any other questions. Now your template on
D-1, they are just basic boilerplate type conflicts?
MR. STEVES-Correct.
MR. STROUGH-And it says that septic tank has to be at least 50 feet from well. I think the Code is 100 feet.
MR. STEVES-One hundred feet, that’s correct. I’ll talk to Mr. Nace about it.
MR. STROUGH-That’s the only thing I had. Thank you.
MR. MAC EWAN-Bob?
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MR. STEVES-It is Town water, by the way. That’s just a note that’s on the.
MR. STROUGH-Yes, well, I just thought I’d mention that.
MR. MAC EWAN-We do look at our drawings.
MR. STEVES-Yes, you do. Some more than others.
MR. VOLLARO-Who owns the piece of property on the intersection of Cronin and Ridge?
MR. STROUGH-Friends of Quaker funeral.
MR. VOLLARO-Is this the cemetery?
MR. STEVES-The cemetery on the north side of the property? The cemetery is on the northwest corner.
MR. SANFORD-The cemetery’s over here, Bob.
MR. VOLLARO-Yes, I’m talking about.
MR. STEVES-The two houses that are there?
MR. VOLLARO-No. There’s the intersection of Ridge and Cronin on the west side of the road.
MR. METIVIER-There’s two houses there.
MR. STEVES-Right. There’s two houses.
MR. VOLLARO-There’s two houses.
MR. STEVES-Right, and at Preliminary, all the adjacent owner’s names will be placed on the map, most of
them are, and those two names will also be placed on there.
MR. VOLLARO-Now, in order to get a shared driveway on the lot that’s to the east of the house, the house
will now have to share a driveway with that lot that’s adjacent to it?
MR. STEVES-That’s correct. You see where that driveway goes over and T’s, next to the lot line?
MR. VOLLARO-Yes.
MR. STEVES-The entrance that comes off of that driveway now would be removed and then the “T” on the
extreme north would be utilized on that property line as the shared driveway.
MR. VOLLARO-Okay. I’ve got it.
MR. MAC EWAN-Is that it?
MR. VOLLARO-Yes. How much vegetation is on this lot?
MR. STEVES-You see on the map that’s on the board, pretty much along the westerly bounds, a little bit
along the southerly bounds. You can see the tree line. Not much clearing has to be done, maybe just a little
bit on the most north westerly lot.
MR. VOLLARO-So looking at establishing any no cut zones in there wouldn’t make any sense at all?
MR. STEVES-We can definitely look at the vegetation that’s along that westerly line, leaving a no cut zone
within the setback. We don’t have a problem with that, or even wider if the Board sees fit.
MR. VOLLARO-What is this, one to thirty or one to forty? Where are we now?
MR. STEVES-One inch equals forty feet.
MR. VOLLARO-One to forty, okay. So we’re like 30 feet. That would be fine to maintain the no cut zone
on the western end of the property. So that that one lot there would be subject to a no cut zone.
MR. STEVES-Actually, it would be the one lot fronting on Cronin and the rear of the lot that fronts on
Ridge. That would be fine.
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(Queensbury Planning Board 9/17/02)
MR. VOLLARO-Other than that, I don’t have any comments on this at all, as far as Sketch is concerned.
This is public water, public sewer here?
MR. STEVES-Just public water.
MR. VOLLARO-Public water. So these are all, you’re showing leach fields. So when you come in for the
final, you’re going to have some perc test results?
MR. STEVES-Yes. Preliminary, the perc tests will be done, the soil tests will be completed. Tom Nace will
have any specific changes from the boilerplate design of the septic system. We’re pretty much confident,
though, they’re going to be just standard systems here.
MR. VOLLARO-Standard pipe systems, essentially, is what you’re saying?
MR. STEVES-Right, standard leach fields.
MR. VOLLARO-No Elgin systems or anything like that.
MR. STEVES-No reason for them.
MR. VOLLARO-I don’t have really any other questions on this layout.
MR. MAC EWAN-Rich?
MR. SANFORD-Six lots are going to be developed. So this piece of land with “pool” written on it is existing
right now?
MR. STEVES-That’s correct.
MR. SANFORD-Okay, and you just didn’t, on those other two lots, you just didn’t put anything there at this
point.
MR. STEVES-That one just shows the proposed house and proposed leach field.
MR. SANFORD-Okay.
MR. STEVES-The other one is an existing home.
MR. SANFORD-Sure. Over here there’s two homes, and then there’s an existing home in between two of
your lots. No, I don’t want to be beating a dead horse here, but I agree with most of the comments about the
preservation of the stone fence. I really would encourage you to keep that. It’s in keeping with, that whole
area has a lot of those types of things. I’d hate to see it taken down.
MR. STEVES-Absolutely. We will depict and denote if there is any disturbance we’re required to maintain
(lost words).
MR. MAC EWAN-Just for the record, this isn’t the first stone wall we’ve wanted to preserve.
MR. STEVES-You’ve got it.
MR. SANFORD-Okay, and I have nothing further. Thank you.
MR. MAC EWAN-Okay. Anything else to add?
MR. STEVES-No.
MR. MAC EWAN-Staff?
MRS. RYBA-One of the things, I would double check your parcel number, because I looked in our parcel
records and see that the number you’ve indicated is owned by somebody else, by Joseph Dimantis. So I think
your lot is 59.4-1, not –4. So just double check on that.
MR. STEVES-Well, 1 is the most southerly lot on that parcel, which is the one that is barely seen, but I will
check the tax map number.
MR. MAC EWAN-Especially if Mr. Dimantis doesn’t know his parcel is being subdivided.
MRS. RYBA-Right, and I’ve not only checked, I’ve triple checked.
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(Queensbury Planning Board 9/17/02)
MR. STEVES-We’ll confirm that.
MRS. RYBA-Okay. Let’s see if I’ve got any other notes. I think just the standard things so that we can
identify the adjacent property owners, identifying the lots. We didn’t find any environmental (lost words) on
this property, and so the rest is just concurrent with Staff notes.
MR. MAC EWAN-Okay. Is that it?
MR. STEVES-That’s it.
MR. MAC EWAN-Good luck.
MR. STEVES-Thank you.
MR. MAC EWAN-Any other business? All righty. Next Tuesday.
On motion meeting was adjourned.
RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED,
Craig MacEwan, Chairman
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