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1988-07-25 SP 78 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING JULY 25, 1988 7:06 P.M. MEMBERS PRESENT Supervisor Stephen Borgos Councilman Marilyn Potenza Councilman Ronald Montesi Councilman Betty Monahan Town Attorney-Paul Dusek MEMBERS ABSENT Councilman George Kurosaka BOARD MEMBERS OF LAKE LUZERNE Supervisor Victor Grant, Councilman Harold Hayes, Councilman Horace Washburn Councilman Thomas Diehl PRESS: G.F. Post Star, WBZA PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE LED BY COUNCILMAN POTENZA SUPERVISOR BORGOS- We welcome all of you to this Special Meeting of the Queensbury Town Board meeting in joint session with the Town Board of the Town of Lake Luzerne. As I told somebody as I came in I really do not know why we are here, I got a message a week or so ago that my Secretary said Luzerne Board wants to meet with the Queensbury Town Board and they said is that possible and I said of course. I said schedule it please and she said it was scheduled, beyond that I really do not know for sure why we are here. I understand that one Board wants to talk to the other Board and since Luzerne initiated that I will let them start off at any point they want to. Other than that I am at a total loss, it has been a busy day and I have not had a chance to sit down, I did not do any additional research for this. Joe, you seem like you want to say a few words, would you go to the microphone and identify yourself please for the record and we can start from there. i i JOE KRZYS- My name is Joe Krzys, I represent West Mountain Villages Inc. and I think the reason for this meeting is probably part ours and probably a suggestion that came out of Lake Luzerne at one of their hearings. That was that there are some issues between the two towns, where perhaps there are differences of opinion. There are issues that require some kind of joint agreement and we thought it would be important to get the different view points about those so we could see what the difference of opinion is so we can work toward solving those kinds of problems. The purpose of this meeting is to get into those issues where it appears in the past through various statements that have been made by either one Board or the other that we just address those, bring them up on the table, talk about them tonight to see if there are some resolutions to settle these. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- Does our council have any objection to that? TOWN ATTORNEY PAUL DUSEK- No SUPERVISOR BORGOS- At this point if you do would you just jump up and hit us or something? Mr. Krogmann would you like to say anything to begin _ with on the part of Lake Luzerne? ATTORNEY KROGMANN- I think that maybe the suggestion might have come from me and I will take the blame or the credit but I think maybe it is the blame since it is a nice night. It just seemed to me that it _ has been a few weeks since we had the second hearing in Lake Luzerne I mentioned to Joe and to Supervisor Grant and the other members of the Board that it might be appropriate at this time which I think is just about the expiration time for written comment. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- I think it went by at 5:00 o'clock. 79 ATTORNEY KROGMANN- OK. That we meet and share some common concerns perhaps and some common goals and try to identify if we do have any areas of concern between the two boards and simply to list them and then decide how we are going to deal with those subjects. Since the last public hearing, the one in Lake Luzerne, the Town Board of Lake Luzerne, met with Mike and Joe and reviewed some major areas of interest, not necessarily concerns although in some cases that is the case and we identified six areas. The first being sewage treatment which I think is probably number one, perhaps it is the most important, the second is density and I think the issues involving density have been resolved in this town and are yet to be resolved in the Town of Lake Luzerne although the Town Board has given the developer some definite thoughts as to their Town. Fire protection and specifically the location of the fire house that the developer has committed to construct, and just as importantly the staffing of that facility. General traffic questions not only within the site but in the approach areas as far east as the Northway Exit and specifically also number five the access roads into the facility. Finally and not necessarily the least important is trash, the question of recycling the question of pickup and where it is going to be deposited, we do not know what type of orders are being contemplated at this time and unless we can identify and approach this issue we are only going to compound the problems that both Boards have to resolve in the vary near future with DEC. Perhaps there are other issues but those are the ones that I show on my notes of July 12th. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- OK. This is not going to be a fifteen minute meeting. There are some very interesting topics there, again I will need some legal opinions here I do not think that the two groups can come to any official decisions tonight but certainly we can get one anothers thoughts and make some suggestions for positions. Possibly we can clarify some of the issues. I will start with number one first and who would like to speak from your Town or from the developers side to say what you think should be and we will indicate individually what we should think should be because we haven't met about these and do not know about what you are going to talk about. JOE KRZYS- I in terms of the sewer that we came up with three alternatives, one was to do a tertiary treatment system on our property with some of the deposits going into a steam that is not our preferred choice by any means. There are two other choices one is to build a sewer treatment plant, a secondary treatment plant with effluent going into the Hudson River and the other choice would be to run a line from all the way to the Glens Falls Treatment Plant. Kestner, under a contract with the Town that we will reimburse the Town for an analysis on what it would cost for us to run a line from our site to the Glens Falls Plant it is 5.6 million dollars. Whereas the cost of doing a plant on the property that all we need DEC requirements it would be a plant that would be safe gatherer of sewage and deposit sewerage in accordance with all regulations would cost us about a million four the real difference is really a difference in price. In addition to which we would be putting in sewer lines that would not only be for our use but would basically cross the whole Town so that is one issue, it is primarily one of cost not of favoring one system over the other system so we are interested in your thoughts. LAKE LUZERNE COUNCILMAN DIEHL- What was the cost of running the pipes to Glens Falls? JOE KRZYS- Five million six this was done by the consultant for the Town of Queensbury... SUPERVISOR BORGOS- Could you tell me Joe was that with a new line all the way or just to the outskirts of the City and tied in with the current City Sewer System? UNKNOWN- ...I understand it was to the edge of the site of the ski area S0 to nearest connection.. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- On Broad Street? RONALD MONTESI- ...Den Wilhelm in that area. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- If we had a drawing it would help. I have not seen this yet. It appears to be at Den Wilhelms. How does Lake Luzerne feel about the proposals? LAKE LUZERNE SUPERVISOR GRANT- First of all we are not satisfied with the first recommendation (tape not audible) ..2nd. and 3rd. proposals fine...want it done right... SUPERVISOR BORGOS- Mr. Montesi has been deeply involved in this thinking and maybe he will give his position which is probably the position of most of us. _. COUNCILMAN MONTESI- My only concern and Mike and Joe we have talked about it before, I have never had a number in front of me, the treatment of the tertiary is not your preferred, obviously the secondary treatment plant would be your preferred our concern and I know I have addressed the issue with Mike and Mike has talked to me about the quantity of flow or water that goes down the Hudson River it is not even something you can equate to, you measure it in cubic feet per second or some big number, if it was a million gallons an hour you could relate to that. My concern was when you have a secondary treatment plant generally speaking what we have in Glens Falls is a tertiary treatment plant, the Glens Falls Treatment Plant, the water that goes into the Hudson River I guess meets all the DEC specs. and what I would say is pure, or not pure but is treated. When you have a package plant and a secondary treatment plant this plant is going to be when it opens the day it opens it will be at its most efficient probably, as your development continues to grow and grow and grow more pressure will be put on that little plant to handle more, and more of the needs up on the mountain. I just have the feeling that ideally the best solution is not the cheapest the best solution is to bring that septage or effluent to the Glens Falls Treatment Plant and have that handled by the plant. My biggest concern is that we are in the throws of another five million gallon expansion to our filtration expansion to our water treatment plant and right now we are drawing, six million gallons a day out of the river and treating it pumping it through our lines we are just barely keeping ahead of it. ...coming before this Town Board will be a five million gallon expansion so we are talking a big commitment that is six or seven million dollar commitment that we are making, boy I would be hard pressed to think about a secondary treatment water coming out a mile or two miles up from my water treatment plant with my intake of water. I guess that is the biggest single concern that I have, irregardless of the flow suppose the plant breaks some day how do you stop the water from coming down the mountain? That is just my concerns, I guess, if they echo the sentiments from this Board, that is all I have. MIKE BRANDT- Ron, to go on the record, I am Mike Brandt with the development. I think we need to clarify what each type of sewage treatment is. That has been a long time since I have studied sewage ° treatment so I can be in error but let me try. I think when you speak of secondary treatment plant what we are saying that the effluent that comes out of a secondary treatment plant has no pathogenic organisms in it in otherwords it is free of any bacteria that can hurt anybody. However it still has the nutrients in the effluent that came with the sewage. A tertiary treatment plant is one where you take out the nutrients as well and I believe that all sewage treatment that flows that goes through a treatment plant as I understand the law, along the Hudson River that only secondary treatment is needed. The base flow of the river is such that in nutrient input into the river can't be found. In otherwords it is so diluted that you never find it. I do not think the nutrient input to the river would effect the Town of C3�_ Queensbury in any way, what would effect the Town of Queensbury would be a malfunction where bacterial pollution went into the river and that would be very bad. As you know you have the problem right now with Warrensburg and they are still dumping raw sewage into the Schroon River which eventually can be found in real low flow rates in the Hudson River ... I know they are identified quite a ways down stream, but that, lets hope will be cleaned up. I think that what is key here to us is that what ever we build it has to be first class it is going to have to be to meet the law and it is going to have to be beyond the specs of the law and it has got to work for extended periods, if there is a power failure or whatever happens can go wrong in a sewage treatment plant it has got to have enough capacity to have some safety margins for that. From our view point we do not have the finances to put a pipe line full length of what is shown and I think that what was studied was not the total cost either because I believe they are saying ok, the sewage starts at the beginning of the project from this side which is near the ski area but you would have to put several pumping stations because the flow of the development is all in the other direction so you have to pump back this way and I believe that would add to the cost that is shown already, significantly. I am not an engineer and I do not know what that amount would be from our view point we have no problem with having our sewage treated at the Glens Falls Plant, that would be ideal but it is a cost problem and we do not know how to resolve that. That is the real problem the development certainly cannot finance that. COUNCILMAN MONTESI- One of the things Mike that just while we are here talking about it, and I am not going to go on the wall about this, those are the raw figures that Quentin developed and it is based primarily on the fact the point A to point B is so many feet or so many miles and this is what it costs to run sewers, obviously he is putting them in the ground now. I guess one of the interesting figures might be that if your development made the decision whatever goes up on the mountain the pipes that go in the ground have to be done anyway. That is a cost that whether you are going here or there those are costs that you incur. If you came down Corinth Road to the City how much of that cost burden would be taken by the Sewer District? MIKE BRANDT- Let me say this Ron, by our view point what ever the cost we are going to incur in a sewer treatment plant could be applied toward the cost of going on that line toward Glens Falls that is absolutely, we would be very willing to do that if there are innovative ways to raise... COUNCILMAN MONTESI- There are a lot of neighbors between you and the City line that might be incorporated into a sewer district that would constitute a lessor cost. MIKE BRANDT- There are innovative methods for raising money for these things that I am not familiar with, maybe Joe knows something about... JOE KRZYS- There are several ways of doing it in some cases it requires a referendum... SUPERVISOR BRANDT- There are a whole bunch of ways including the tax incentive financing and a few others that might be legally possible, it might be double I do not know if they are politically the way to go, I do not know if they are the reasonable way. Ron started to indicate that potentially if you come down Corinth Road there is need for some sewer service in that area, there will be an i industrial park very soon a small one that probably could use one there is a motel there now that probably could use some at exit 18 and as stretch out toward the mountain there are probably other areas that could use some sewer service. There is a potential there to help in this process however ultimately the entity that is responsible for getting the pipe in the ground the one that is making it necessary would be the West Mountain project so that is probably where the bulk of the financial responsibility should be. 82 MIKE BRANDT- I think that we are capable of building a first quality sewerage treatment facility that would never show a negative impact now stream from that facility. My intuition is that, that is the right way to go because of its costs. SUPERVISOR BRANDT- That is the up front capital side, there are also a lot of staffing requirements that are extremely difficult to meet and extremely expensive and you certainly might want to look at that, the cost of having twenty-four hour around the clock service seven days a week by licensed technicians is not a small cost. You would find very quickly I think that you will eat up many savings. COUNCILMAN MONTESI- One of the things too Mike is that while that part of Luzerne would certainly, if I was looking at it from a point of view of Lake Luzerne and their government, a treatment plant or facility that would provide them with sewer treatment would certainly open up that part of Luzerne to a whole multitude of things other than West Mountain, other than West Mountains development. I am not sure if I was the Village of Lake George that I would want to take on a secondary treatment plant and have the onus of making damn sure that there would never be any bacteria count going into the Hudson River where Queensbury would be on their back, I mean that is a tough, you are going to say that thing is going to run all the time and never break and this is a serious commitment, if I was Luzerne, I think too I would be looking at if you had to bite the bullet or somebody had to bite the bullet and go to Glens Falls we have capacity there that can be added to we have a sure fire way of getting that line in. Part of the cost might be how big is that line going to be we are talking a half a million gallons. MIKE BRANDT- We are not against that at all, it is a matter of how do we finance this so that we are still feasible, this is our only concern. COUNCILMAN MONTESI- Quentin Kestner is presently, tomorrow night this Town Board will be looking at a couple of extensions of our present sewer district and that requires in order for us to act on a resolution to start another sewer district what it requires for us is to have a total study, cost per individual home owner. It would --- appear that if we have a total figure now, of what it would cost to put pipes into the ground for you from the bottom of your development it might be interesting and it is a little costly for a study to find out how much assessed value along that particular route. How wide would that particular sewer district be. When I say wide would it just encompass the homes owners on Corinth Road and what is the impact if that became a sewer district. If all of the area going all the way down was on a sewer maybe the impact on Mike Brandt might only be a million and a half or two million dollars to do that whole project, to do it in that way. MIKE BRANDT- We are certainly are willing to study that with you... COUNCILMAN MONTESI- That is something that we should be doing rather expediently because it is part our your orderly decision as to whether you will have... MIKE BRANDT- The other point is that when we reach our approvals we would like to move ahead and not be held up by the resolution of that problem, we would like to move it along rapidly. SUPERVISOR BRANDT- I am sure that would be one of the conditions of any approval. In otherwords that would be resolved before you get any approvals I am sure, that is obviously a big issue and all the comments that we get particularly from the residents on the mountain and this way from the mountain would be impacted by the flow of anything put in the ground and have indicated that sewage must be taken care of and there probably nine and a half to one leaning toward the direct connection with the City Plant at this point. COUNCILMAN POTENZA- Mike where abouts on the property on the mountain would this 83 be? MIKE BRANDT- The sewage treatment plant that we had envisioned would be at the furthest point of the property, because all of the land slopes in the direction at the very westerly edge of our property. COUNCILMAN POTENZA- Alright, so it would be almost as you are going over the Luzerne Mountain Road would it be at the base of that road near that part of the Hudson River? MIKE BRANDT- It would be along the Corinth Road by the big dip in effect somewhere in there, so you are talking about roughly three and i a half four miles from the West Mountain Ski area. COUNCILMAN POTENZA- How far from the Water Treatment Plant? MIKE BRANDT- Route by River I do not remember, it is quite a ways, I would guess in miles or something like that. COUNCILMAN POTENZA- It is not feasible to put any entrance into the river south of the treatment plant, everything would go north of the treatment plant... MIKE BRANDT- It would be above Spier Dam it would be well above Spier Dam. LAKE LUZERNE HAROLD HAYES- It would be 3-4 miles and a half mile from Corinth treatment plant. COUNCILMAN POTENZA- A half mile this way or the other side? LAKE LUZERNE HAROLD HAYES- A half mile closer to you. You already have the jeopardy of a plant shut down...the plant has to be designed so that material could be recycled...if there is a motor backup...what it comes down to is a plant failure is a serious concern, the plant is less expensive .. then pipe line...operating personnel the cost _ of all of that as well as investment cost...to over look that for just the sake of installation we haven't done our homework. MIKE BRANDT- Here we really need the expertise of some good design engineers that have expertise in this field and I think that what we are going to have to address and come up with some good answer to. COUNCILMAN MONTESI- I think Marilyn has come up with a very good idea, the cost alternatives are such that there is no way, first of all let me say this that we are probably looking at a study of the magnitude that I am talking about, I am not talking a big study I am talking about a routing, addressing every single issue along there in terms of assessed value,I can show you what the study looks like, you are probably talking in that section Mike somewhere between seven and ten thousand dollars to do that, and that gives you a map of record to go before the Town Board for a resolution to form a sewer district have a public hearing and wait your thirty days in case there is a permissive referendum on it and then form the sewer district. The other alternative and so I throw a figure of seven to ten without talking to Kestner, I will get that figure for you tomorrow. The other alternative that certainly would make me and my residence feel better is what kind of an easement can you get from the Queensbury Treatment Plant and put that effluent, secondary effluent below our intake, that might be an interesting concept. Obviously it will add to the cost of the one point four but it would certainly make a lot of people more happy. The same water that we are concerned about goes back up onto the hill you know. MIKE BRANDT- I drink it every day, it is good water. COUNCILMAN MONTESI- When I see bottled water up on the hill I get a little concerned Mike. 84 SUPERVISOR BRANDT- Mrs. Monahan, do you have any comments? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN- I think Ron made some very good points, I also think the cost of 0&M are very important and I am going to be a political realist and I think you are going to have a hard time selling the citizens of the Town of Queensbury that the money they got invested in the water system no matter what you tell them... they are not going to like the idea of raw sewage being dumped above their water treatment plant. Corinth might already have their's there but we did not have any power over that, this one we do have some power and the people out there I see are not going to be very happy if we say dump it in, I am being a political realist. SUPERVISOR BRANDT- We could go on with this topic for a long time, why don't we breeze through each of them a little bit and then come back and discuss it in more detail. I think we here where we are coming from I think you hear us I did not hear anybody say they like the tertiary plant up on top and dump it in the steam so I think that's without taking a vote of any kind I think that is kind of not a possibility. The other two are interesting enough to look at, I think is I properly summed that up, what was the next item on your list? Density...As you indicated in your opening remarks, the Town of Queensbury seems at this moment to be pleased and satisfied with the density in the Town of Queensbury, you can take it from there. MR. KROGMANN ...Lake Luzerne is prepared to take the necessary steps, allow for the increased density that are called for not only by the initial proposal project but by the new or modified proposed project... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN- Your Board might not have a problem but the people of Luzerne certainly do...people have talked to me personally certainly have a problem. COUNCILMAN POTENZA- I think their Board is listening to their people...(tape inaudible) MR. KROGMANN- Steve asked we what the position of the Board was and I answered him, they represent those residents, you do not. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- That was one of the biggest item we heard I think, that was the biggest objection. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN- People who talked to me said that... SUPERVISOR BORGOS- If the density remains the same over there we at some point will have to address the concept of cumulative impact, if that stays the same and I am sure Dennis would agree and it may well be in here I have not looked at least we know where you stand on that, which is different than what we thought you would be saying based on the public hearing. What was your next item? COUNCILMAN MONTESI- I suppose that was a very personnel decision that the Town could make if you amend or change your density rules to conform to that I do not have a problem with that I think the only thing I have to address for the both of us is just what Steve said what is the cumulative impact and I suppose it is not going to be much different than we dealt with, if we take the three hundred homes or the density in Queensbury and put it up on the mountain the net difference is still there it still has to be addressed. We felt strongly about why we were given some strong indications from our citizenry and we responded to that, I can not say there was anything wrong with the project we just responded from what we were getting from our people, I do not have any problem with that. JOE KRZYS- Let me make a comment on why we did that, in our studies both traffic which you need more additional data from us on from the conversations we had from EDP, we will provide that for you. The amount of additional impact by adding three hundred houses the difference was insignificant when you started to look at all the traffic and everything else. The sense that we got is 85 the reason why the density was requested to be the same in Queensbury was from the Planning Board meeting we had was that all that they felt that you could build on based on some historical perspective as to how the zoning got set in the first place. So the question was not whether the impact was negative from the other environmental aspects it was because of the reason was why the zoning got set in the first place. That they felt that was the total amount of units that could be put on that site, that is why we, since we were adversely impacting the total environment by keeping the three hundred units we were only doing it in Queensbury that the rest of our study showed that we qualified for those units... COUNCILMAN MONTESI- I think in one of the meetings and I am not sure when it was that I had with Mike we talked about if West Mountain Development conformed to the density of what we are talking about one to one would there be some consideration on the Town Board's part allowing some additional commercial space on top of the mountain, the concept that Mike proposed if fairly interesting and not, I did not think that it in any way changed the changed the density. What we are talking about is the whole first floor of the hotel was if you will an international mini hotel retail area. The hotel is there, there are one hundred an fifty units in the hotel and I suppose if you wanted to take the lobby and all of the first floor or the basement floor and have it as a retail space I did not think there would be much opposition from me because the fiscal building was there. There was just some terminology we had to address in allowing that because for instance how many parking spaces do you need for a restaurants and how many parking spaces or square footage do you need for this or that is that really fixed or is there some leeway we could look at. Whether it was office space or retail space or hotel space the fiscal building is there and how we can fix it up to help the cost effectiveness of the project I think that this Town Board at least gave the indication that was pretty much black and white and come on lets talk about it and see if we can help with making it more cost effective. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- OK, that is a quick run through the second item, what if the third one? COUNCILMAN POTENZA- Fire protection. MR. KROGMANN As a general comment, statements have been made in a general way by Joe, Mike...want to speak to that ... a step in the right direction, work is underway and will be incorporated in the final draft of the environmental impact statement. Such as staffing of the fire facility, permanent employees have the mandatory requirement of employment as to the location of the fire house we understand that the Town Board of Queensbury would like that facility in the Town of Queensbury as I understand the Town Board of Lake Luzerne they do not necessarily oppose that they obviously want mutual protection type of arrangement, so the location is not a major issue. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- Maybe I can address, you want to address it first, ...we have talked about this almost from the very first day of this project. I have a bit of background in the area of fire and fire protection, community risk analysis courses in the National Fire Academy that kind of thing a few years of teaching fire defense planning. Because of the location of this particular project and because of its access ability or lack of access ability because of its remoteness of this particular project and because its accessibility of lack of accessibility, because of its remoteness from Lake Luzerne fire station and the fact that it is close in air miles from West Glens Falls but it is not close in road miles, nor in road grade I have indicated that at least as far as I am concerned there is no alternative but to put a fire station up on top. There is absolutely no alternative. We cannot possibly get fire apparatus up there even under good weather conditions fast enough that it is within the first four minutes to really prevent the spread of a fire. Within four minutes fire starts to double every several seconds, from there on it explodes. When I saw 86 the original plans that called for a hundred and fifty unit hotel and that hotel is going to be built as a first phases of the development I understand and then the houses in Queensbury in the first stage, I knew by all the current laws that we had that, that would fall within the West Glens Falls protection area. Once you get above two stories in modern fire fighting you really need a aerial ladder or aerial tower apparatus, Queensbury Central has one, it is the only one in the Town of Queensbury. The one we have could not possibly get up there fast enough, so you are looking at once you get above two stories you are looking at an aerial tower. The current cost of that is somewhere over four hundred thousand dollars for the tower. To go with the tower you have to have a first class pumper and a good pumper today depending on whether it is fifteen hundred, two thousand gallons a minute is going to cost in the neighborhood of two hundred and fifty thousand dollars, so you are looking at about six hundred and fifty thousand dollars of dedicated fire apparatus it is good stuff it is not the finest but it is very good stuff. You are looking at a cost for a fire station of probably three or four hundred thousand dollars and you are looking at a cost for an ambulance for emergency medical services of eighty five to a hundred and ten thousand dollars for an ambulance plus a facility for that so somewhere in excess of a million dollars. What is being developed at the top at certainly a build out even initially is really a mini village. Twenty eight hundred houses is bigger than South Glens Falls it is bigger than Hudson Falls it is approaching the size of Glens Falls. You are getting up into really big numbers so a fire station is part of a normal community it is necessary maybe two will be needed at some point depending upon the road configuration and maybe you will need one in Queensbury maybe a little one which is the pumper over at the far end. Staffing is a big problem, it would be my intention obviously to require that West Mountain Villages commit to what would typically be known as an industrial fire burgade. The employees would have to be trained so many would have to be on duty minimum at any time twenty four hours a day so they could do the initial response either as members of West Glens Falls Fire Dept. or in lieu of West Glens Falls until such time as the West Glens Falls Officer were to get there to conduct the fire scene. That is not hard to do IBM does this Kodak does lots of major corporations do, the plans are out there it is easy to get a hold of details of what kind of levels of training is available. I see as no alternative but to have the first station in the Town of Queensbury because that is where the demand is going to be. I do not know how many years before Luzerne starts to develop but that is where the demand is. It would have to be under the control of the West Glens Falls Fire Dept. Unlike some other areas in town Hiland Park, unlike Earltown that can obtain services because of the geographical conditions from other fire stations the sole purpose of putting a fire station on top of West Mountain would be for your project, very specifically, without your project you do not need it with your project you do need it. Without Earltown we still need South Queensbury without Hiland Park we still need Bay Ridge, Queensbury Central serves a very small part of Hiland Park. I do not think as a listen here that there is going to be any conflict from what I hear, I think we are thinking along the same lines, obviously it is another burden on the developer but the developer is creating the circumstance this is directly related to the development, the same way Hiland Park had to put in its sewers, the same way Hiland Park had to put in and pay for all the water lines, they are creating the burden directly as a concept of a benefit tax rather than a sacrifice tax. Those people, those developments that benefit from the particular item should pay for it in this case the primary beneficiary of that fire station will be the West Mountain resort. I can't even in a mutual aid circumstance see many if any cases where that apparatus would ever leave that mountain location and come down into the valley because that would leave the mountain unprotected even for a few minutes, I think you will see that apparatus up there and stay up there. It should last a long, long time because it will not have to travel too far. It absolutely has to be up there. That is my 8'7 personal feeling in a nut shell. COUNCILMAN MONTESI- ...You made some good points here, I never had a realization how expensive it would be, I am thinking beyond the first year if West Mountain does do this million dollar commitment at the end of the first year if the hotel was the only building built down here to they then assume the fire tax based on the budget of that station? SUPERVISOR BORGOS- No their property like the rest of the town all the property owners in the entire town share in the total expenditures for all of the departments, we don't currently we have not historically taxed depending on where you live. If you are in Queensbury Central you pay into a pot that gets shared according to a formula that is going to be a little bit more formalized this year. You share in the cost of the entire town, one company helps the other in their own town wide mutual aid system and then of course we are county wide. In that case undoubtly the first call of fire there would be an automatic mutual aid response if it is anything other than a very small fire, Lake Luzerne would be requested to come other West Glens Falls stations would begin to respond and Corinth could even come over. COUNCILMAN MONTESI- I have one last question Mike, maybe this is just mute question, will there be a sprinkler system in all of the commercial buildings and or residential buildings up there, it is just something... MIKE BRANDT- I would assume so, yes. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- The hotel would be required by law. COUNCILMAN MONTESI- Any public ... probably. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- Depending upon the square footage, the type of construction, but the hotel would be required by law. You would find that You would more than pay for the system in four years of insurance savings. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN- Steve, I think that the mechanics for paying for this has to --- be looked at very closely, I have been thinking of what you said. If this is going to be a branch of West Glens Falls and we collect a fire tax that pays for our different companies and yet we have a station out there that will only serve one area of Queensbury.. it cannot be used to used in mutual aid as you said. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- It could be, I do not think that it would very often, it would not be wise, but it could. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN- The station up there its primary purpose is to serve a mini village with mutual towns, I think we have to give very serious thought as to how this is going to be financed in the future, I think this is too fast and too quick an answer what do we do once we get past the initial financing that West Mountain is going to do. I can see some problems, I think that this may have to take some innovative financing for the years coming up and I can see a lot of things, if the people of Queensbury feel that they are going to get this burden dumped on them they are not going to like it. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- I think you misunderstood the crust of what I had to say. The developer would be expected to pay out right the full cost of all the equipment, the continued maintenance, I thought the thrust of their question would be would that be the end of it, no. Their property owners would still have to continue paying the -- taxes, what you are saying is introducing another concept and that is interesting maybe another intermunicipal agreement that would form some kind of special financing just for that area if Luzerne was interested to share in that financing or Luzerne ... can build their own station. COUNCILMAN MONTESI- That was the point that I was making too. 88 COUNCILMAN MONAHAN- Until we really know what the assessed valuation of the home owner up there we do not know whether that area can carry in the operation and maintenance question I am talking about now, whether of not they could carry it or whether it has to be kicked into some other area, so if this is true I think you are going to find again the people objecting to the fact that they are helping a developer to finance his project if not now, in the future. MIKE BRANDT- What about the people up on the mountain today, wouldn't it be a shame if we had our own district and we couldn't go there and help put out a fire in theirs and West Glens Falls couldn't get up the mountain to help, I think that is absorb, I think if you really get down to it you look at your own law you have one fire district in the Town of Queensbury. There is a town _ wide district if you want to fragment that over this development I think you better look at that awful hard, you might have a bigger can of worms than you care to sort out. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN- ...What I am saying is that you have to carefully look at the impact before we start making the decision along those lines, we have to know what we are talking about in dollars and cents. COUNCILMAN MONTESI- I was thinking in just the opposite way, this is an unusual thing, I do not think we ever had someone buy a piece of equipment and give it to the town... MIKE BRANDT- In a fire district. COUNCILMAN MONTESI- Yes, in a fire district, what I am saying is if I could walk up onto West Mountain and have two vehicles a pump station and a station there ready to go and have training facilities here what I am saying is after the first year I am not sure that, that group has to pay the same fee that everybody else is, we have a free engine at that point. Obviously there is some money that would have to be paid because there is an operating budget that has to be maintained and there is also a budget that you have to look to as most of the fire houses do for the future. MIKE BRANDT- I think, having done some budgets I know you have one tax district for the entire town for fire and what you do, you look at your contractual cost of all your fire departments add them together and that becomes your town fire tax and I think you will find that the assessment of the property of West Mountain will carry its weight with any other part certainly some of the other sections of Queensbury that exist, I do not think that we will cost an undue burden on anyone. I think that it is also, we should not be isolated and say that it is purely a district for our own benefit if my neighbor on Cormus Road had a fire I certainly think we ought to be there trying to fight it if we can get there. I think we should look at the common sense safety of the whole thing and I think all of these things will settle into place in good shape. We certainly are for a fire station we believe in it as much as you do we have said that from early up and we are prepared to provide that. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- •The savings to your proposed residence, the saving in insurance costs alone probably within one year would pay for the cost... MIKE BRANDT- I think also we are looking at the feasibility of intergrating the snow making system at West Mountain at the ski area with that as a supplier of water for fire fighting and I think we can solve these problems and do a real first class job by intergrating different systems with it. I think everybody has something to benefit including people that may not be on our development. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- Obviously a hot topic, I hate to say that, the EMS, the Emergency Medical Service the same way you have to have some trained EMT's on staff they are not hard to find anymore people want to do that again there would be an ambulance there, West Glens Falls District, important for you, your people will want to know what is the fire and ambulance protection like, how fast, and you 89 are going to have it. Very, very critical items, I do not think that the thinking is too far off on this one then either. What do we have for the next item? COUNCILMAN POTENZA- Traffic. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- Traffic, let somebody else touch this one. I have a lot of traffic letters on my desk. MIKE BRANDT- Lets hope that by saying that basically when we proposed this proposal, this development we said we wanted to access from the old Luzerne Mountain Road, there has been a lot of discussion between the Town of Queensbury and ourselves and we concluded that, that is not a practical answer and that instead that could be an emergency entrance point but not a general traffic point and we feel that, that make sense. We had discussions with the Town of Luzerne and I think they agreed to that also, is that correct, am I correctly saying that? That the entrance from the old Luzerne Mountain Road would be an emergency access only. LAKE LUZERNE HORACE WASHBURN- (tape inaudible) noted that at the hearing was the first time they were aware that Luzerne Mountain Road would only be used for emergency access.—questioned why are you opposed to that being another exit or entrance to the property? SUPERVISOR BORGOS- OK, briefly, just turn me off, if you want to turn me off at some point, I lived up there for ten years I know every inch of that. Historically the big argument from day one has been that the Luzerne Mountain Road from this side on the Queensbury side is not the worlds finest road. It may be smooth but it is tricky, you have to be careful. When you get into Luzerne you breath a sigh of relief, the roads are wide, the slopes are gradual note bad, the capacity of that road is tough. Right now, even last winter, I went up there on a cold dry day with snow banks but no ice on the road and a car just in front of me went off the road into the snow bank coming down what is known as Black Snake curve. It is a tough road to drive if you start to look at I think that the current traffic is about three hundred cars a day or four hundred a day something around there, if you start to go up to what they are talking about initially of six or eight thousand cars a day there is no way on earth that could accommodate that. The cost of redoing that road the permitting process with the Adirondack Park Agency the cost of land acquisition it would be in the multi million dollar range many millions of dollars. MIKE BRANDT- Let me jump in with something else we have been doing a study and its falling into place we do not have all the answers yet, but one of the things that we are very concerned about is parking on the summit of the mountain. The environment at the summit of the mountain can be damaged severely we feel aesthetic wise by making a lot of parking up there. Since there is going to be a commercial center with a fair amount of usage associated with the hotel, and village center, we have been studying alternative methods of moving people up and down that mountain. One of the alternatives that we have been studying is called a funicular its is basically a rail system that is somewhat like a ski lift, they are systems that were first built in the Alps in the late 1800's and they have been very, very successful. In effect they are a ski lift drive where you have one car at the foot of the mountain where you have one car at the station at the top of the mountain and when the drive starts the two cars switch points. They are very fast they are very high capacity they are also very expensive. We have been looking at this as a people mover and more and more indications are that it is feasible, that it might work. It is very unique, it would be the only one anywhere around this part of the east coast but the advantage is that they are high capacity they are low maintenance they have a long life. They are relatively inexpensive to operate but they are very expensive to build initially. From our view point it may not make much sense to have an entrance at the top of the mountain 90 that is a duplication of effort and I throw that in because there are more and more indication thats the direction that we may want to go anyhow. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- Just to pick up on you, I want to be sure he answered the question, mostly the safety cost effectiveness, permitting process problem a whole bunch of problems. JOE KRZYS- I think in terms of this funicular we just got the feasibility study back today on it, there are some people that do this and primarily what it would do, we already have all the parking lots at the bottom of the mountain for skiing they are already adequate enough to handle what are probably day tripers or one day users at the top of the mountain, what it would do is cut down on all the traffic going all the way down Corinth Road to the back, our plan then would be to make the back entrance to the property only open to homeowners and probably Lake Luzerne residence sense they are already back there if they want to go to use the Hotel or whatever. So the whole idea would be that anybody that would be coming from the south or the north that would be going to West Mountain instead of going all the way around we have them go into the ski area take the funicular to the top and we basically solve part of our traffic problem, also in terms of the number of people that would be going the whole length of the road. The other part is in terms of traffic, I think that our traffic study showed, you again asked for more information about the data and the details that backed that up, but our traffic studies showed that at certain points in time that we are going to have certain impacts on the road. In some cases we have to go to an additional turning lane and traffic controls and if there is a point in time in which it would require for us to continue to build we would have to go to four lanes on Corinth Road and I think we will provide the data for that as to what periods of time that occurs. What our traffic studies show is not inconsistent with the studied that the town had done what said basically the Corinth Road ultimately would go to a four lane road that, that is a necessary thing. Our study shows that when you take us at full build out that a four lane road in fact satisfies all the traffic needs, the traffic would not be slowed down or it would not be over traffic but in fact it would all --- work. I think that some of the things that we are doing is that we are looking at a funicular that would be an offset against some of the long road costs and divert a lot of people and just put them into the parking areas that are already being used, and move them to the top of the funicular which also doubles as a ski lift in the winter. COUNCILMAN POTENZA- But, Joe you would still use the proposed road, Luzerne Mountain Road and that proposed road going into small retail area, you consider that an access road then right? JOE KRZYS- No, I think that the road that we had coming out to go to Luzerne Mountain Road which was our original main entrance before, I think that we are just looking at that with everybody being agreeable to that, we are looking at that as just an emergency road so we can get fire vehicles emergency vehicles up there. But not necessarily having that a major egress out of the property. Lets be practical about it, if you drive that road it is a bad road. COUNCILMAN POTENZA- Anybody that drives that can see that my concern is that you are not, this people mover is conceptual is a wonderful idea but it still does not solve the problem of the access road going in and out for deliveries and for you know, fire safety and police and whatever else, the road is necessary mainly for that purpose not for the tourist and not for the residences necessarily. JOE KRZYS- We are not looking for that to be tourist or homeowner traffic also this funicular moves a tremendous amount of goods and things, it has a little cab behind it you can put on early in the morning and move things up to the top you cannot hear the thing it has 91 all rubber wheels and that kind of thing it is also a goods mover as well as a people mover. We can collect food and things going to the hotel ... (tape changed) for purposes of emergency vehicles it is one way in. COUNCILMAN POTENZA- An emergency vehicle can go either way on a one way road.. COUNCILMAN MONTESI- Let me get something phased right, there is still part of this proposal is from what we call Call St. or Corinth Road there is still a major I am going to call it a Boulevard a major access road into the development from the Corinth Mt. Road. JOE KRZYS- Absolutely, we have not changed that at all. COUNCILMAN MONTESI- The question of whether Luzerne Mountain Road will be used in any way shape or form is pretty much being resolved now, the funicular is, if I was to go to dinner up the mountain, probably the most desirable thing I could do would be to drive to the West Mountain and ride the funicular to the top. That is the concept, on a build out basis and I am looking at trying to help people understand basically they really don't all the see is twenty seven hundred houses sometimes if the first thing that gets built is a hotel complex with an adjoining retail and major access road in from Hall Road and a funicular that is Phase I and in essence whatever ensuing water and sewer lines that have to go with it, that is pretty much designates Phase I. JOE KRZYS- With some housing a golf course, the recreational things. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN- Joe when we talk about Corinth Road being a four lane road I would be interested in the people impact, what property will be have to take, who's front yard, which house is going to be move...I hope that will be in the impact statement. JOE KRZYS- We will consider that sure. Sooner or later, our intention has never been to disrupt people's lives our whole purpose in this thing when we started to conceive this is to improve the quality of a lot of lives in Queensbury by providing a whole bunch of recreational facilities that do not exist here right now, or do not exist in enough abundance to satisfy the needs. I think that was our intent, as well as to build the housing and everything else. You just cannot look at things in isolated ways if you go strictly to make money and you do not care about the other stuff you are not going to make the money. There is just no two ways about it. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN- We are going to have a lot of development in this town, most of my fellow board members live in subdivisions they don't feel a lot of those impacts, I happen to live on a small road...we want to know what the impacts are before it is too late to change some of the methodology... JOE KRZYS- Are there any more comments about the traffic situation? LAKE LUZERNE HORACE WASHBURN- One more comment about Luzerne Road ..looking back through the hearing data before you allowed the people to speak the second time around I had listed twenty one speakers six of those people were concerned with traffic and those problems and two with density so we really have not been bombarded this is a big project,... in the next twenty years if this goes through, I have talked with a lot of people I haven't found hardly anyone that was concerned with density... COUNCILMAN MONAHAN I think they are concerned with the density because of the traffic, they are putting the two of those together. LAKE LUZERNE HORACE WASHBURN- I would not like anybody to get the impression that the Board is turning a deaf ear toward anyones complaints on density...over the next twenty years of this project which has been indicated as the longevity of it, we can see and I expect people to recognize 92 the adjoining property values at the top of the mountain there is already action because of this development. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- I am sorry that I sold mine. LAKE LUZERNE HORACE WASHBURN- ...(tape not audible) noted that smaller developers could come in and find that the traffic pattern effected without any control over it also occurs to me that if that road was developed and made better...that would relieve the situation on the Corinth Road greatly relieve the situation at exit 18 and shift it to 19 or another exit which I am sure one day will be built on Luzerne Road... SUPERVISOR BORGOS- That is exactly, we have our problem now on Exit 19, we have _ a problem at Exit 18 anything that would put more traffic in that direction would be bad, our housing, our residential developments in the so called west end of town so that anything that would burden West Mountain Road, Luzerne Road, Sherman Avenue any of those major roads, although we just recently widened and upgraded them would be a very big negative in our minds. LAKE LUZERNE HORACE WASHBURN- Is there any plan at any time to put in an exit on Sherman Avenue? SUPERVISOR BORGOS- I think somewhere between Exit 18 and 19 you will see another exit, maybe two but the State says we do not have any money, we think there should be just to relieve some of the traffic, not a commercial exit a residential use exit only no commercial zoning in that area, but I think you will see it. COUNCILMAN MONTESI- George Kurosaka one of our Board Members who is not well tonight, was the engineer of record when the Northway was coming through and he noted that Sherman Avenue that the State owned three hundred and fifty feet on each side, it looked like they had purchased that in anticipation of someday having exit 182 or 192 what ever direction you go, the only thing I can tell you about that is that when I moved up here in 1968 it was a long time before that sign came down that said exit seven to be built. How fast could we get that to happen and is that a necessary growth that we would want to see, I think we have already started looking at that and trying to think about where the next exit would be. LAKE LUZERNE HORACE WASHBURN- ...what we need to know I am sure you consider in your planning all these things the interim exit between 18 and 19 where it connects logically with Luzerne Road SUPERVISOR BORGOS- Probably not. LAKE LUZERNE HORACE WASHBURN- do the dollars make sense then, ...Corinth Road through those dollars not spent there could they be better spent here, I am sure you have considered all that. What we need to know, what the Lake Luzerne Board needs to know is where you stand firm so that we can intelligently do the planning that we need to do. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN- We stand firm they are not going up Luzerne Mountain Road. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- I stand personally very firm Luzerne Mountain Road to be an emergency use road only not to be changed not to be upgraded any more than normal up grading, just the economics plus the traffic problems. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN- ...the vertical lift of that road and put on top of that we will get a lot of people in here who are not use to mountain driving and I hate to think what would happen. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- I was used to it and I had to be pulled out a few times. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN- I will say Steve, to update you on the Northway we thought we were being smart the other weekend and not getting off at 18 93 or 19 and going to 20 and found traffic backed up onto the Northway. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- We are looking at that but I do not think that any of those proposed or possible new connections would help your project, that is personnel opinion we have studied them fairly closely. MIKE BRANDT- One of the things that I would like to say that from our prospective on the Corinth Road I think that the Town plan should also include sufficient set backs on new construction so that, that road when it becomes a four lane road you do not have to buy buildings, brand new buildings that are put up, SUPERVISOR BORGOS- I think that is in there. MIKE BRANDT- that goes with all of the major roads COUNCILMAN POTENZA- I think that area Mike is. MIKE BRANDT- I wrote a letter to the Planning Board years ago COUNCILMAN POTENZA- I think in the master plan that area is being rezoned Light Industry, for commercial use, and I think with the set backs, with the new master plan they have taken that into consideration. That is a very good point. MIKE BRANDT- You look at Corinth Road today through Queensbury it seems to me that there is quite a bit of room right now to expand it but there has been even some fairly recent construction quite close to the road, I think that is a real problem that we are going to all have to face some day so if we can avoid that and we are all going to have to work with the County, it is a County road and again years ago I, on the old Luzerne Mountain Road I have to tell you that I worked with Fran Eggleston and try and get that to be a County road because as a function it really functions as a County road, people from Luzerne and Hadley pass through Queensbury on there way many of them on their way to work in the City of Glens Falls. I think that functionally it is a County Road and properly eventually it probably... SUPERVISOR BORGOS- We tried to give it free of charge to Warren County last year and they said no thank you. MIKE BRANDT- I know that well, there were some roads in Queensbury that probably are County Roads that function as Town Roads too but someday that is a can or worms that has to be sorted out. From our view point it does not make any difference. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- I met with the Warren County Traffic Safety Board this morning and one of the things that we looked at was the exit 18 situation the proposed traffic signal and the other changes, I think that you will see some changes but by next year, the traffic signal has been delayed probably until 1989 now. You will see some changes there you might even see some upgrading of that exit maybe a little widening maybe a little change in construction if your project were to go through that would seem like the logical thing to do would be to upgrade that exit dramatically encourage traffic then to take the shortest distance between two points between there and your project that is where the traffic property belongs. COUNCILMAN MONTESI- Mike was there some comment at some point that not a commitment but some comment that the Town Board wrote a letter for you that said we were conceptually we like this idea there was some state agency that was going to be at least beneficial or benevolent in getting some dollars or getting some expectancy in looking at... MIKE BRANDT- Let Joe handle that one. JOE KRZYS- We went to the UDC a long time ago and met with Vincent ... and Lee Webb and Al Sullivan and based on the economic impact that we bring to the area that they said that when you have your approvals 94 and you have local support come back with the local support, the local political support and go through the list of items that we talked about many of which were traffic issues. My belief is that if we with having our approvals that is we go together the two towns, the County with a traffic plan to the State I think we can get some help. SUPERVISOR BRANDT- Is there anything else on traffic? What was the next set, we are doing pretty well. MIKE BRANDT- Solid Waste, one of the things that we discussed within our selves and then latter with the Town of Luzerne is that we are prepared to ask the people in our development the homeowners to the sorting of garbage right off the bat and we can build that system into the home. I think it is the way to go I think it will be law _ very soon anyhow and it certainly we do not mind leading on that one. SUPERVISOR BRANDT- I might add that I got to know Commissioner Jorling on a first name basis last Thursday night at dinner for what ever good it will do us, it might get me an appointment at some time but they do not have the answers yet no body has the answers State wide, Nationally, Internally it is just another problem it is a very big problem fortunately most of this will be in the Town of Lake Luzerne most of the homes will be there, we will try and work out a joint solution. COUNCILMAN POTNEZA- As long as they are second home owners we could ask them to take it home with them... SUPERVISOR BRANDT- I understand that someone came to our landfill last Saturday, Jim Coughlin told me, and brought four or five bags of garbage and Jim said that will be two dollars please, and they said two dollars and he said yes, two dollars and they said gee that would cost us 18.00 back home. So they were very pleased to find a good deal here...We are charging two dollars a load now for whatever you can bring in a car or pickup truck. LAKE LUZERNE VICTOR GRANT- No one knows how long our landfills are going to be around I -- wish I had the answer but...the Town of Lake Luzerne will not be responsible for the picking up of garbage at the West Mountain area what so ever that would be up to the people who live there to have a contract with a recycling... COUNCILMAN POTENZA- All of Queensbury is like that now. LAKE LUZERNE VICTOR GRANT- if there is a recycling firm that does this or SUPERVISOR BORGOS- Or an independent hauler LAKE LUZERNE VICTOR GRANT- so that there would be no... SUPERVISOR BORGOS- Queensbury does not provide any garbage pickup now they are all independent. LAKE LUZERNE VICTOR GRANT- That is important for the record. COUNCILMAN MONTESI- Where are you going to take it? COUNCILMAN MONAHAN- yes, that is the important part the ultimate disposal of it because our landfill cannot take that kind of burden on it from two thousand houses and a hotel and everything else. COUNCILMAN POTENZA• That is not what Mr. Grant is saying, what he is saying is that the Town is not going to be responsible for picking it up but if you have independent haulers and if the residence is in Luzerne it is the Town of Luzerne's problem at this stage of the game. 95 COUNCILMAN MONAHAN- We do not allow garbage from out side of the Town of Queensbury to come into our landfill anymore. COUNCILMAN MONTESI- That might be a problem that you do not want to leave the developer hanging on the rope to resolve, for instance if it is a recycling company or if it is company A,B or C that goes up there and picks up the trash from the development the hotel and all of the commercial and residential homes how are you going to tell where it is coming from? Is it coming from this side of the road, that is something... COUNCILMAN POTENZA- That would be the same thing, ...that is not different from Glens Falls or Queensbury. COUNCILMAN MONTESI- We should make it easy if we are looking at trying to help a developer come in or trying to be helpful, government should not make it difficult...we are trying to resolve this between us. I know we have limited space. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN- ...as far as the landfill you will not have space for the people here in Queensbury in that landfill, that landfill is growing out of space and we have got to realize that. COUNCILMAN POTENZA- you cannot expect the Town of Lake Luzerne to take garbage from the Queensbury residences. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN- I don't. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- There might be a possibility, I do not know all the details of every square foot of your project you have twenty eight hundred acres maybe you could be an acceptable part 360 landfill on your own property? MIKE BRANDT- That would be expensive, ... the Town of Queensbury couldn't do it during my administration and we tried hard. Realistically this is a problem the whole society has, certainly we are not different from anyone else and we are going to have to do our share to help resolve it. I do not think that any of us have the answers, whether you bury it, whether you sort it, you can sort out and separate and cut back but there is still an enormous amount of it, until markets are built I do not know who recycling is going to pan out I do not think anyone does. I think from my sense is there has been a period of time now where the State has been saying to all the Towns that we are not going to accept dumps anymore or landfills I guess that they are called. I think that goes way back to days that I remember very well in politics and we never could get a permit, within the law in Queensbury and I think some of that was the State saying we are not going to give anybody one and they haven't not very many. I think there was a serious discussion then that it might be better organized as a County function because a lot of the towns were just too small to handle it. I think as a developer we are too small to handle it, I think that it may be organized between several counties where resource recycling is bunched together, there is just no answers to it but I think we have to be prepared to find the answer and we are willing to do our share both as taxpayers and responsible citizens. I think that is all that can be said at this point, we certainly do not have any answers a crystal ball that anyone else has got. COUNCILMAN MONTESI- I do not think your project, Mike, represents more of a problem to me as a Town Board Member than any other number of projects in my community except I can only relate to yours in a way that there is a bigger number there the impact on my landfill or however I am going to handle solid waste, it is a problem, it is not a problem unique to your development, the impact on you or any other is the same in town, it is a problem that I cannot solve at this moment and neither can Lake Luzerne. My only concern was the first three of four years of development probably the main thrust of trash or solid waste will be in the Town of Queensbury, if A,B,C, company is up there from Queensbury or Glens Falls they are obviously going to bring that at a later date to Luzerne if the landfill is closed and ours is open there may be some 96 kind of a municipal agreement that has to get existed or that has to happen. MIKE BRANDT- The history with Glens Falls and Queensbury has been a good one and I think we resolved some problems there in the past and I am sure all municipalities are willing to work together to find a logical answer. COUNCILMAN MONTESI- I think both of us are raising issues that we do not know what the answer is and we are going to handle you as we would any other resident of the town but it is not easy. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN- It is obvious that it is not there in that landfill if you walk that thing and you look at the project life is at that landfill, ...we cannot take all ... in that development I can tell you one thing and I walk the landfill a lot as we become a more effluent society that landfill is filling up quicker and quicker because people are throwing out the things that they didn't used to throw out. I thought it was very interesting that when a class from ACC went through the landfill, our landfill supt. opened up this bundle and one of the girls said there were better cloths in that bundle than what I have hanging in the closet. .� , This is what is happening in Queensbury the furniture that is going up there... MIKE BRANDT- They don't even pick their nickel cans out. It is a disgrace to put them aside and carry them in. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN- This is what is happening as Queensbury get affluent that landfill is being used up geometrically too. COUNCILMAN POTENZA- Every Town, every County every place is having the same problem it is frustrating on government side and it is frustrating on the individual side and people ..abut at least Mr. Brandt has made the initial rules in saying that the first thing we would like to do is mandate as best a human being can and that is to recycle to set up MIKE BRANDT- Properly sort. COUNCILMAN POTENZA- properly sort and place I don't know containers or what ever it is, you know sometimes if you make it convenient for someone it at least gives them the opportunity to do it rather than leave it to their own devices to do it so I think that the move is there. MIKE BRANDT- I think that the public accepts it and wants it just as much as we ... COUNCILMAN POTENZA- They know it is coming it is not big secret, everyone you talk to knows ...I wish Michael you had the answer you would really be the hero then at this stage of the game ... SUPERVISOR BRANDT- Any other comments on solid waste? There are no other major items on your list are there any general comments about the status of the project or other things that were not real big things but maybe little things? COUNCILMAN MONTESI- Can I summarize, I am going to call Quentin Kestner tomorrow and ask him to give us some indication as to his initial concept was for 5.6 million transmission line and what would it cost us to get a more detailed summary or report which would include actual cost of the whole thing with all of the assessed value from point A to point B. The other alternative was maybe your group was going to look at..a line down to avoid the treatment plant and that is a nice alternative. One of the things I had —to ask Luzerne and Mike together is suppose we came back with a figure of eight to ten thousand dollars for this study how do you proposed that we handle the financing of that and obviously nothing is set in concrete but is it worthy of and I do not have the number I am trying to give you a high number just so we can think about it, what do you think about that? Let me call you F1 and at least give you the figure from Quentin, and I am sure I can't get it tomorrow but I will at least start that process going and it is something to consider something we have to consider quickly. COUNCILMAN MONAHAN- I just want to point out one thing Ron and I am sure Mike from sitting on this side of the table has already thought of this, once we try to create a special sewer district and encompasses more than West Mountain your corporation I believe has one vote if this ever goes to referendum and all the other tax payers will have at least one or two depending on how many voters they have in the house hold. That maybe an important consideration as far as you are concerned. MIKE BRANDT- I do not want to bring it up but I remember the end of my administration the sewer failed at the County wide district where it failed was West Glens Falls, was one of the places that it failed and I think you have to look at that, you have to be a political realist as to whether it would fly...would the people go for it, I think it is a good thing... SUPERVISOR BORGOS- You may find over the twenty year period your projections would show that if you even had to pay the whole shot you might be far ahead of what your other possibilities are, it would not surprise me. COUNCILMAN MONTESI- For the sake of discussion the permissive referendum issue could be brutal because 5% of the voters in that proposed sewer district could force a referendum and another developer for a PUD was faced with the same situation running down a road that had four other names and his concept was to form a sewer district, I said wait a minute your thousand acres represents one vote the other four people who live on an acre represent one vote it is conceivable that you could have a permissive referendum of 5% of the six of you and go down the tubes, so if I were you I would pay for the line in the ground and be a good neighbor and let the neighbors hook in...which causes us a problem now because it is not a dedicated line now and they want to hook in....I will get some figures for you tomorrow or the next day and you will have at least one alternative to work on how you might be able to round something down by pass the plant and it might be real worthy of your consideration. SUPERVISOR BORGOS- Any other comments or questions? LAKE LUZERNE VICTOR GRANT- I just want to thank you for giving us the opportunity to meet with you.. SUPERVISOR BORGOS I think that the spirit of intermunicipal cooperation is really shining through these days we are talking a lot and getting things ironed out and no fist fights yet I think this is great and I think we will see a lot more of it and certainly if you want to meet with us again holler we will go over there or you come over here what ever you want to do we will get along we will honor the agreement that we have signed with you that nothing less restrictive, I think those are the terms, nothing less restrictive than what you approved would be approved by this board so you set your standards and at least as restrictive and we will be in good shape, I appreciate everyone coming out and there is a motion to adjourn. ON MOTION THE MEETING WAS ADJOURNED. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED, Miss Darleen M. Dougher Town Clerk Town of Queensbury