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1990-05-16 ---" QUEENS BURY ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS FIRST REGULAR MEETING MAY 16TH, 1990 INDEX Sign Variance No. 24-1990 Capital Area Community Health l. Plan, Inc. Area Variance No. 26-l990 Florence Gallagher 2. Area Variance No. 33-1990 Paul Macri, Sr. 3. Area Variance No. 34-1990 Abraham Rudnick 8. Queensbury Gardens, Inc. Area Variance No. 35-1990 Victor J. King 8. Area Variance No. 36-1990 Dr. Robert L. Evans 13. Area Variance No. 37-1990 Craig and Barbara Meade 19. Area Variance No. 38-1990 Gorman H. Rich 23. THESE ARE NOT OFFICIALLY ADOPTED MINUTES AND ARE SUBJECT TO BOARD AND STAFF REVISIONS. REVISIONS WILL APPEAR ON THE FOLLOWING MONTHS MINUTES (IF ANY) AND WILL STATE SUCH APPROVAL OF SAID MINUTES. -- .- QUEENSBURY ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS FIRST REGULAR MEETING MAY 16TH. 1990 7:30 P.M. MEMBERS PRESENT THEODORE TURNER, CHAIRMAN SUSAN GOETZ, SECRETARY JOYCE EGGLESTON BRUCE CARR CHARLES SICARD MICHAEL SHEA JEFFREY KELLEY DEPUTY TOWN ATTORNEY-KARLA CORPUS ZONING ADMINISTRATOR-PAT COLLARD ASSISTANT PLANNER- STUART BAKER STENOGRAPHER-MARIA GAGLIARDI MR. TURNER-Before we go any farther, I'll just make one announcement at this point. Abraham Rudnick, Area Variance No. 34-1990, has been tabled. The reason is that he needs a Use Variance and that wasn't advertised. So, therefore, he will be on next month's agenda. CORRECTION OF MINUTES March 28th, 1990: Page 14, under Sign Variance 22-1990, the first paragraph, second line down, where it says the !££ of the building is 56 feet back from the road, sib the front face of the sign is 56 feet back from the road MOTION THAT THE MINUTES BE APPROVED AS CORRECTED, Introduced by Charles Sicard who moved for its adoption, seconded by Susan Goetz: Duly adopted this 16th day of May, 1990, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Kelley, Mr. Shea, Mr. Sicard, Mrs. Goetz, Mrs. Eggleston, Mr. Carr, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE April 18th, 1990: Page 16, way down at the bottom, sib Brian Clemens, not Cronin; Page 17, same as above, sib Brian Clemens, not Cronin; Page 14, up at the top, fifth line down, where it says, it's just a way of handling banks, sib books MOTION THAT THE MINUTES BE APPROVED AS CORRECTED, Introduced by Joyce Eggleston who moved for its adoption, seconded by Charles Sicard: Duly adopted this l6th day of May, 1990, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Sicard, Mrs. Eggleston, Mr. Carr, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE ABSTAINED: Mr. Kelley, Mr. Shea, Mrs. Goetz OLD BUSINESS: SIGN VARIANCE NO. 24-1990 TYPE: UNLISTED MR-5 CAPITAL AREA COHKDNITY HEALTH PLAN, INC. OWNER: JOHN NIGRO, NIGRO REAL ESTATE OF ALBANY, NEW YORK 694 UPPER GLEN STREET TO MAINTAIN THE EXISTING TWO WALL SIGNS WHEN ONLY ONE WALL SIGN IS ALLOWED. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) TAX HAP NO. 99-2-1 LOT SIZE: N/A SECTION 6.103 OF SIGN ORDINANCE MR. GOETZ-This was tabled last month and, since then, we've had a letter. Letter from Hinman, Straub, Pigors & Manning, P.C. Attorney's at Law, to Theodore Turner, Chairman, Zoning Board, dated May 14th, 1990, asking that CHP be tabled until June (attached) MR. TURNER-We'll accept the letter as proposed and weill table the application for one month. 1 ~ MOTION TO TABLE SIGN VARIANCE NO. 24-1990 CAPITAL AREA COMMUNITY HEALTH PLAN, INC., Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved for its adoption, seconded by Joyce EggJ.eston: TabJ.ed for one month at appJ.icant's request. DuJ.y adopted this 16th day of May, 1990, by the foJ.J.owing vote: AYES: Mr. KeJ.J.ey, Mr. Shea, Mr. Sicard, Mrs. Goetz, Mrs. EggJ.eston, Mr. Carr, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE AREA VARIANCE NO. 26-1990 TYPE: UNLISTED SFR-1A FLORENCE GALLAGHER OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE CRONIN ROAD, WEST OF BAY MEADOWS GOLF COURSE TO SUBDIVIDE THE LOT INTO TWO PARCELS, AND BUILD A SECOND SINGLE FAMILY HOKE. REQUESTING RELIEF FROM LOT SIZE. AND LOT WIDTH ON A COLLECTOR STREET REQUIREMENTS. TAX MAP NO. 60-2-7.2 LOT SIZE: 1.32 ACRES SECTION 4.020H FLORENCE GALLAGHER, PRESENT MR. TURNER-We had the pubJ.ic hearing the J.ast time and the matter was tabJ.ed by the Board for one month because we J.acked a quorum at that time and we didn't come up with a verdict. So, has everybody read the record sO they understand? MRS. GOETZ-Read the minutes? MR. TURNER-Read the minutes. MRS. GOETZ-Yes, I did. So, were we discussing it? MR. TURNER-We can discuss it. MRS. GOETZ-ShouJ.d we read the Staff Input because that wasn't in the minutes, was it? MR. TURNER-No. MRS. EGGLESTON-We did do that J.ast time. MRS. GOETZ-But for the peopJ.e that weren't here. MR. TURNER-Yes. MRS. GOETZ-Read Staff Input from ApriJ. 18th, 1990, meeting. (attached) MR. TURNER-Does everybody understand? Okay. MRS. GALLAGHER-Do you want me to say something? MR. TURNER-No, not if you don't, I didn't open the pubJ.ic hearing, so. MRS. GALLAGHER-WeJ.J., shouJ.d I? MR. TURNER-If you'd J.ike. Just for a minute. MRS. GALLAGHER-My name is FJ.orence GaUagher. On the north side of Cronin Road there's nothing except the goJ.f course and me and I just can't see why it wouJ.d harm anybody for me to have someone J.iving next to me. My house was broken into a month ago and J.ast summer, I had the poJ.ice down there because they were jacking deer out of the back yard and previous to that, they're down there fishing most of the time. They come down from Regency and I wouJ.d just J.ike to have someone down in there with me and I couJ.dn' t see how there wouJ.d be any objection since there's nothing eJ.se on that side of the road. That's about it, thank you. MR. TURNER-BasicaJ.J.y, the same information she gave J.ast time. acre she COmes up with two smaJ.J. lots and she lacks lot width. This is SFR-1 MR. SHEA-Was there any further discussion? MR. TURNER-We had the public hearing the J.ast time. She wants to subdivide that parcel of land and she I s left with two substandard J.ots and she just lacks the J.ot width of 300 feet. 2 .- MOTION TO DENY AREA VARIANCE NO. 26-1990 FLORENCE GALLAGHER, Introduced by Bruce Carr who moved for its adoption, seconded by Joyce Eggleston: The applicant hasn't demonstrated the required criteria for the granting of the area variance. The granting of this variance would be detrimental to the Ordinance. Duly adopted this 16th day of May, 1990, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Kelley, Mr. Shea, Mr. Sicard, Mrs. Goetz, Mrs. Eggleston, Mr. Carr, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE NEW BUSINESS: AREA VARIANCE NO. 33-1990 TYPE II WR.-1A PAUL MACRI, SR. OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE 99 MANNIS ROAD, CORNER OF MANNIS AND FITZGERALD ROADS FOR CONSTRUCTION OF A 1,152 SQ. FT. THREE CAR GARAGE. REQUESTING RELIEF FROM SIDE YARD SETBACK AND MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE SQUARE FOOTAGE REQUIREMENTS. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) TAX MAP NO. 40-1-47 LOT SIZE: ±2 ACRES SECTIONS 4.020(D), 2.020(105) PAUL MACRI, SR., PRESENT MR. MACRI-My name is Paul Macri. I would like to just say that I made a slight change for the better, I believe. For one thing, there's only going to be two doors. One of my vehicles is an antique which I don't drive that often. So, it will look like a two car garage. Also, I don't need the Area Variance. I turned the garage closer to the house where it can be the 20 feet from the line. MR. TURNER-You need the size. MR. MACRI-The only question is the size. MR. TURNER-Where are you going to MR. MACRI-I have a couple of maps to put up. MR. BAKER-Excuse me, Mr. Macri, was this new information reviewed by the Warren County Planning Board? MR. MACRI-Yes and they accepted it unanimously. MR. BAKER-Okay, the Planning Department has not seen this new information. The Planning Department review was based on the original application. MR. MACRI-I brought this map to Pat, a while back, and she told me, just bring it tonight and everything would be all set. MRS. COLLARD-I thought the Warren County Planning Board would tell you about the change in their referral. MR. BAKER-We heard nothing about the change. This new information was not reviewed by our Department. MR. MACRI-It's just a relocation of the MRS. COLLARD-Yes, he's eliminating One variance. MR. MACRI-It's just the size. It's not the area. MR. TURNER-He's eliminating the setback area, just going with the size. MRS. COLLARD-Itls not like he's intensifying anything. MR. BAKER-Right. If the Board's comfortable with reviewing it. MR. TURNER-We've already reviewed the size wise. We're all set there. He's already complied with the setback. MR. BAKER-Right. MR. TURNER-He could build 900 square feet there and get a variance. 3 .- MR. BAKER-If the Board feels comfortable in reviewing this without Planning Department input on the changes, by all means. MR. TURNER-Did you look at that. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes, that's the new one.. MR. TURNER-Yes. I guess I've got to ask you, with all the acreage you've got up there, well, not necessarily all the acreage, why would you have to have such a large garage. MR. MACRI-Well, I have three vehicles. I have a truck, a car, and an antique vehicle plus a boat and lots of... I'm trying to clean up my yard. MR. TURNER-Commercial vehicles? MR. MACRI-No, absolutely not. The building..there's also insulated windows. It's going to be an attractive building. be anything messy looking. going to be eight It's not going to MR. KELLEY-Mr. Macri, I've got a question for you. What would be the approximate height of the eave line for this particular building? MR. MACRI-The side, 8 feet. MR. KELLEY-The wall height, let's say. MR. MACRI-Eight feet. MR. KELLEY-So, you're going to use a standard 7 foot high overhead door? MR. MACRI-Right. Then, again, there'll be just two doors, not three. MR. TURNER-Any other questions? MRS. EGGLESTON-Is that new building any where near the new septic, Ted? I'm trying to look..pretty close to that. MR. TURNER-He's got it, right there. How far away is your septic tank going to be? MR. MACRI - I don't think it's supposed, more over this way, here. The garage is going to be.. MR. KELLEY-Mr. Macri, is it your intent, then, that you're actually going your truck and your car there and your antique car and also your boat. words, the boat that you have, it will fit in your garage? to store In other MR. MACRI-Right, and what tools I have, lawn mOwer and stuff. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED DOROTHY CHARLEBOIS, OPPOSED MRS. CHARLEBOIS-I'm Dorothy Charlebois and I live at 109 Mannis Road and I would like to know exactly the height of this building and I would like to also look at the map to see where it's going to be placed because Mr. Macri, when he purchased the property, he raised his house, and when he raised his house, he blocked our view of the Lake and I would like to be certain or feel certain that this garage is not going to do the same thing. MR. TURNER-Are you west of him or east of him, or what? MRS. CHARLEBOIS-We're on the left facing the Lake. MR. TURNER-The west. Here's what he's proposing and this is what he proposed the first time with this garage. MRS. CHARLEBOIS-Yes. MR. TURNER-Now he's moved it over here next to the house. He meets the 20 foot side setback. 4 '--' MRS. CHARLEBOIS-And the if the eaves are 13 feet? MR. KELLEY-Eight feet. MR. CHARLEBOIS-Eight feet, how high MR. TURNER-That's about the lowest you can go. MR. KELLEY-That would be what a normal wall height in a house would be, would be 8 feet. MR. SICARD-What would that make the ridge. MR. KELLEY-Well, it depends on the pitch. MR. SICARD-Depends on the pitch, yes. MRS. CHARLEBOIS-Because it is an oversized building. MR. SICARD-If the sidewalls are 8 feet, what is the ridge height? MR. KELLEY-That what we're going to find out. MR. TURNER-Mr. Macri, can you address that? MR. MACRI-The highest part of the MR. TURNER-The highest part of the garage. MR. MACRI-It's the same as..what's the highest part in your garage? GENTLEMAN-About 12 and a half, I believe. MR. MACRI-It's the same. It's 8 foot on the side. The top would be the same and I might add that the only thing that you're not going to be seeing by the garage being there is the side of my house. It's not going to be as high as my house is. There's no blockage of any view other than the side of my house. MR. TURNER-Are you satisfied with that. MRS. CHARLEBOIS-I think so. The point that I must bring up to the Planning Board, I understand that Mr. Macri has his house up for sale, if he expects to sell his house, why is there such a need for a large building? This is a point that I think you should consider when you're either voting for or against this variance. We've also had variances approved in our area just two lots away from where we are and it's a piece of property and it's owned by Flynn's and it has turned out to be a terrible mess, a complete eyesore. Now, I, for one, 1111 be happy if Mr. Macri gets a garage and cleans up the wall because there's about 75 feet of the wall which is ours that he has stored all kinds of unsightly debris. I think Mrs. Goetz saw that also and I would like this cleaned up if his garage is going to create that purpose and, outside of that, I guess that's about all. MR. MACRI-I assure you, my house is not for sale, not anymore. MRS. CHARLEBOIS-It was in the paper last weekend. MR. MACRI-I told them to take it off. It's just about ready to expire. Instead of taking it off, they just, because of the garage possibly going through and everything, that would discourage anybody from buying, they said. I have no intentions of selling that. MR. SICARD-Are there any signs on the house now? MR. MACRI-No. MRS. CHARLEBOIS-There wasn't last year either, or the year before. MRS. GOETZ-Why would building of the garage discourage people from buying it? MR. MACRI-For the price that it was listed. The realtor suggested to just leave it listed and if anybody wanted to buy it at that price, they would just have to go to a much higher price which I would make high enough so, I have no intentions of selling it. When I listed it, I had some hardships and now I'm straightened out. 5 MRS. GOETZ-The type of debris that was around, to me, it didn't look like it was all exactly the type of thing that you'd be putting in a new garage. MR. MACRI-There's a lot of wood. MRS. GOETZ-There's a lot of everything. MR. MACRI-I have no garage. MRS. GOETZ-Right, but my point is, are you clean the other stuff up, that you might not be putting in the garage? MR. MACRI-Of course. That has nothing to do with the garage, but of course. MRS. GOETZ-It doesn't, but it effects the way the neighbors feel about a proposal like this. MR. MACRI-Right. MR. EGGLESTON-Mr. Macri, could you possibly live with a normal, 900 foot area garage? MR. MACRI-Not with the vehicles I have. I just have sO many other things. I have a very valuable antique car. MRS. EGGLESTON-What do you do for a living? MR. MACRI-I'm a hairdresser. MRS. EGGLESTON-With no intent of using, doing your business at home? MR. MACRI-Absolutely not. MR. TURNER-How big is your boat, Mr. Macri? MR. MACRI-I donlt know exactly how big. It's not terribly big. MR. SHEA-Do you know the length? MR. MACRI-It's probably the same length as yours (referring to Mrs. Charlebois) MRS. CHARLEBOIS-What is our rowboat, how long? It's a slant rowboat type of thing. It has a little kicker on it. MR. TURNER-It might be 6 feet long. MR. MACRI-No more than that. MR. TURNER-What's the antique car? MR. MACRI-An Edsel. A '58 Edsel. MR. TURNER-Pick up truck is what? MR. MACRI-Itls an '87 Ford, with a plow. MR. TURNER-The car? MR. MACRI-The car's an '88 Lincoln Continental. MR. SHEA-Mr. Macri, other than the actual garage doors themselves, what other kinds of doorways are you intending to put? MR. MACRI-There'll be one service door and eight windows, eight, 3 foot by 4 foot windows. MR. TURNER-Any other questions? app licat ion? PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED Anyone else wish to speak, opposed to the 6 '''"-''' -- CORRESPONDENCE Letter from Dale Jarvis, 35 Fitzgerald Road. I'm opposed to the project that Mr. Macri, at 99 Mannis Road, has in mind. He has more than enough property to construct a garage on his own, without infringing sO close to his neighbor's property line. I feel there is no just reason for allowing him a variance. Warren County Planning Board approved STAFF INPUT Notes from John S. Goralski, Planner (attached) MRS. GOETZ- (Referring to Staff Notes) The side yard setback variance has now been deleted with the change in the application and the variance, now, if from the maximum square footage allowable for a garage. MR. TURNER-Any discussion on it, amongst the Board members? MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. Is that right, that the 900 square foot could accoDmlodate 3 vehicles, you're the builder? MR. KELLEY-Yes. It probably could do the three vehicles, but not the boat. I guess that where, maybe, I would say, he has a practical difficulty because if he wants to get the boat in there. I think, the other thing you have to think about, he's talking about a 24 foot garage and I think I saw the pick up truck when I was there. If he has a plow and wants to put that in there, it won't fit in front of the truck and still be able to get the truck and the plow in the garage. So, he'd have to, if he wanted to store the plow inside, have to shove that off to the side. I think, if he wants to put it all in there, he could have trouble with a 37 and a half foot, I believe, especially with the boat. If we said a 10 foot wide for the truck, 10 foot for the car, 10 foot for the antique car, that's 30 feet. That leaves you with 7 and a half feet for plow, boat, lawn mower. MR. TURNER-The boat's just a row boat. Is it a ranger boat, Mr. Macri? Something like a ranger boat, fast boat, something like? MR. MACRI-It's bigger than a row boat. back. It I S a motor boat. It has a motor on MR. TURNER-Well, I know, but you can put a motor on anything, you know, what is it? You told me 16 feet long. MR. MACRI-It's probably around 16. MR. TURNER-What's the beam on it? How wide is it? MR. MACRI-I don't know. difficulties. I haven't had it in the water. I just had a lot of MRS. CHARLEBOIS-That's one of the things that..that wall. MRS. GOETZ-I think we should go back and think about why did we limit the square footage to 900 square feet or whoever wrote the Ordinance because, are we now going to have to hear people, anyone that has a boat's going to need a new garage to house their boat? I mean, what makes this sO different from other people that might want to store their own boat at their house, as well as many other vehicles. MR. TURNER-What's the motor on the boat? The size of it? MRS. CHARLEBOIS-I would say about a five or a seven. MR. TURNER-That's a row boat. Is it a 20 horse? MR. SHEA-Is it an open-hulled boat? MR. MACRI-Yes. MR. TURNER-You could tip that over and store it outside in the winter time. MR. MACRI-I also have a lot of tools and things. I just bought a lawn tractor. MR. TURNER-Yes, I can understand your position, but I think the Ordinance was kind of strong in the language. We wanted to limit the size of the garage because 7 - we had problems with a lot of the garages. Nine hundred square feet, that's a three car garage. I think that's a pretty good sized garage. I have a problem with the garage. You're 252 square feet oversized. Now, when we start handing out variances for garages over 900 square feet. .meeting every week of the month. MR. MACRI-The other thing is, the Edsel is extremely valuable. MR. TURNER-I understand that. I don't have a problem with that. I think you've got, you can keep the three car garage. You've got room for the Edsel, the truck, and your car. MR. MACRI-But not the plow and the truck. MR. TURNER-No, but a plow is removable off of a truck. You can take it off. MOTION TO DENY AREA VARIANCE NO. 33-1990 PAUL MACRI, SR., Introduced by Susan Goetz who moved for its adoption, seconded by Michael Shea: No special conditions applying to this property and not applying to other property in the neighborhood. Strict application of the provisions of this Ordinance would not deprive the applicant of the reasonable use of the land. Strict application of the dimensional requirement would not result ina specified practical difficulty. The variance would be detrimental to the purpose of the Ordinance. This request is not minimum relief. Duly adopted this 16th day of May, 1990, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Kelley, Mr. Shea, Mr. Sicard, Mrs. Goetz, Mrs. Eggleston, Mr. Carr, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE MR. MACRI-Will I have to reapply for the 900 or whatever? MR. TURNER-As long as you need the setback, you have to just go in with a plan and get a building permit. AREA VARIANCE NO. 34-1990 TYPE: UNLISTED PC-1A ABRAHAM RUDNICK QUEENSBURY GARDENS, INC. OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE 15 FOSTER AVENUE, INTERSECTION OF ROUTE 9 AND FOSTER AVENUE, APPROX. 600 FT., LAST BUILDING ON RIGHT FOR CONSTRUCTION OF A 1,536 SQ. FT. GARAGE FOR STORAGE OF COMKERCIAL TRUCKS AND LAWN CARE EQUIPMENT. REQUESTING RELIEF FROM MAXIHDM ALLOWABLE GARAGE AREA AND COMKERCIAL VEHICLE STORAGE REQUIREMENTS. TAX MAP NO. 102-1-18 LOT SIZE: ±o.85 ACRES SECTION 2.020(105) MR. BAKER-Mr. Chairman, just as a procedural matter, the Rudnick Variance should be tabled by motion, by the Board. MOTION TO TABLE AREA VARIANCE NO. 34-1990 ABRAHAM RUDNICK, Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved for its adoption, seconded by Charles Sicard: The reasons are that the applicant needs a Use Variance and an Area Variance. The Area Variance was the only item advertised and the Use Variance will have to be re-advertised. Duly adopted this 16th day of May, 1990, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Kelley, Mr. Shea, Mr. Sicard, Mrs. Goetz, Mrs. Eggleston, Mr. Carr, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE MR. TURNER-Hopefully, you can put them on next month's, right? MR. BAKER-Yes. AREA VARIANCE NO. 35-1990 TYPE: UNLISTED SFR-1A VICTOR J. KING OWNER: JESSICA J. KING 28 MONTRAY ROAD, NORTH ON ROUTE 9 PAST NORTHWAY PLAZA, RIGHT ON SWEET ROAD, MONTRAY ROAD IS SECOND LEFT FOR CONSTRUCTION OF A ONE FAMILY HOME WITH AN ATrACHED TWO CAR. GARAGE. REQUESTING RELIEF FROM SIDE SETBACK REQUIREMENTS. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) TAX MAP NO. 70-2-30 LOT SIZE: ±o.24 ACRES SECTION 4.020(H) VICTOR KING, PRESENT 8 -- MR. TURNER-The application should reflect that the zone classification is SFR-1A. Mr. King, do you have anything to add to that? MR. KING-No, just, I think there are five, 75 foot lots on that block of Montray Street and they all appear to have less than 20 foot setbacks. MR. TURNER-Itls an old neighborhood. MR. KING-You have, the logging business is directly in the back and there's fences to the back and to both sides and I just thought that the living room and the front entrance should face the road as well as the garage and that's about as narrow as I can make the house. MR. SICARD-You removed that old trailer that was there didn't you, Mr. King? MR. KING-Yes, last fall. MR. SICARD-That's an addition to the neighborhood. MR. KELLEY- I was just looking at a 75 foot lot with 20 foot sides, he's got 35 feet of usable space, we can't figure out how to put a house with a garage and 35 feet. I guess what I would ask would be, what different plan alternatives did you consider to place on this particular lot or is this the first one you picked? MR. KING-No, I looked at several, but I wanted a two car garage and you could put a living room the other way, sO it would be approximately 12 feet wide, but then the living room would be facing the side yard and it just wouldn't look right from the street, with the living room being that narrow, because the 12 feet, that includes your window on the front and also your entrance door. MR. KELLEY-The width of, or the portion of the garage, I guess you'd call it the width, that's on the front, is that about 24 feet? MR. KING-It's probably, actually, it's 22, 23 feet. MR. KELLEY-You've got this to scale (referring to map), haven't you? MR. KING-Yes, it's to scale. MR. SHEA-Are you going to be residing in this home, Mr. King? MR. KING-No. MR. SHEA-Will it be for rental purposes? MR. KING-Yes. MR. SHEA-Could you not, then, consider a one car garage to benefit asking for less relief? MR. KING-Well, it's being built for a couple in their early eighties and I wanted to build a ramp in the garage, sO I wanted 4 feet and then I want to drop 2 inches on 12 inches, about as steep as you can make it, then have another 4 feet before you get to the other end of it in order to make it to that point. I'm not far away from there myself. MR. SHEA-Do they own two cars and necessitate? MR. KING-No, they will have one car. MR. KELLEY-You're saying you need the space for your handicapped access or whatever? MR. KING-That's correct. MR. SHEA-The handicapped access, then, would run across the back· of the garage or front to back? MR. KING-Across the back of the garage. MR. SHEA-So, for handicapped access, you then, precisely, need a two car garage with. .one? 9 -- ~ MR. KING-That's corn~ct. The garage, there's about 20 feet inside, I think, by 4 feet on each end that's level. It's a two foot drop, then, let's see, I'd have 8 feet off of 20 feet would give us 12 feet. So, that would give me 2 inches on one foot, it would gi ve you 24 inches. You'd drop 24 inches and I do think that the house would look better..where the two car garage would look much better than a home with a one car garage, just for appearance. They don't build any houses today, usually, with a one car garage, I don't believe. MR. SHEA-Mr. King, is this a package home that you're pretty much locked into the design or is it a stick built? MR. KING-No, it would be a stick built home. MR. SICARD-It's pretty small as it is. MR. KELLEY-I've got a question for you. It looks to be that this garage is somewhere around 20 or 22 feet square and you're saying you want to propose this handicapped ramp in the rear of the garage? MR. KING-That's right. MR. KELLEY-What would you say the width of that ramp would be? MR. KING-It'd be 3 feet. MR. KELLEY-I'm saying, if you had 22 feet, if you take 3 feet away, that leaves 19 feet. I would say it could be close to whether you could even get a car in there and be able to close the garage door. You're getting pretty border line whether you can get a car in there. In my own mind, when you said ramp, I'm drawing it on the side thinking, you'd have your depth sO that you could get the car in. MR. KING-Well, I could probably move it 4 feet and put the ramp parallel to the wall. I could probably do something like that. MR. KELLEY- I guess my concern is, I'd hate to see you build it and not be able to get the car in. I'm not trying to tell you what to do. MR. KING-There aren't many cars, and most of the cars are quite short, today. MRS. GOETZ-We also have to think about down the line, when these people might not be living there. What if it wasn't big enough for the car that somebody else had and then they came in and said we need to enlarge the garage to fit my car and they go closer to the side line. MR. KING-To enlarge the garage, you said? MRS. GOETZ-You see, because we have to look at this proposal, not just for the people that might be living there after you build it. At least this is the way I look at it because I feel that, should they not live there, they won't even own the home. What would happen if the garage, as your proposing it, isn't big enough for a regular car, just as Mr. Kelley has just mentioned. MR. KING-Well, then we would just remove the ramp. It's just a wooden ramp, is what it would be. ...be constructed of wood. MRS. GOETZ-Does the ramp have to be inside the garage? Is there another way you could have a ramp out of a one car garage up to where you would go in the front door? MR. KING-No, I can't think of that. There would be one step down. The garage is 24 inches lower than the floor of the house and so there would be the one step down from the house to the side of the garage where they exit from the house and another two steps down to the level of the garage, you might say, it's 24 inches. Three risers would be the minimum. It steps down. MR. SHEA-Mr. King, do you have a floor plan detail for this home as we 11 ? MR. KING-I think I do. This is.. the garage is here, but, it's the same thing. This is the floor p 1a.n of the house. 10 - -- PUBLIC IlEAR.ING OPENED LOUISE AND JOHN HOLT, OPPOSED MRS. HOLT-My name is Louise Holt. MR. HOLT-John Holt. We live on the south side of this property. In my backyard, we have loggers equipment which is in a residential area.. variance. At present, we have tractor trailers parked a10ng our back fence a1l day long. To the south of my property line, I have an 8 unit mobile home park. Four units are on my property line and they're all within two to six feet of my property line. I can stand on my property line and touch a trailer. I just think that 11m crowded in enough without a variance being given for the setbacks. My house was p1aced on my lot two years ago and it's got the 20 foot side setback and it's very comfortable and it looks nice with the 20 foot setback. MR. TURNER-How big is your lot? MR. HOLT-100 by 140 something. MRS. EGGLESTON-And the rest of them are 75.. MR. HOLT-I'd also see no hardship here, seeing that he's using it as an income property and a smaller house can be built on it without interfering with the side setbacks. That's all I have. MRS. GOETZ- In a way, making this house seems to improve the neighborhood seems to improve the neighborhood, maybe not this particular plan, do you agree with that. MR. HOLT-Yes, any new house will improve a neighborhood, but your .Ordinances were put in for a specific reason, not to encroach on your neighbors. MRS. GOETZ-How long has Mr. King owned this? MR. HOLT-Just recently. MRS. GOETZ-Mr. King, how long have you owned the property? MR. KING-I think the deed was filed in March. MRS. GOETZ-March of 1990? MR. KING-March of 1990. I purchased the property a year ago, but the attorney didn't file the deed until March. MR. SICARD-I think what you have to take into consideration is the lot is considerably smaller than yours.. We're also looking at.. remOve the trailer. I think those are. . looking at this. That trailer park's been there a long time. MRS. GOETZ-Was that under..Group, is it, the mobile home, do you know? MR. KING-Yes. MRS. GOETZ-I live around the corner, that's why I'm a litt1e bit familiar with this area. Something is going to be on that lot, you rea1ize that? MR. HOLT-Yes. MRS. GOETZ-What if they made a different house plan, where they weren't encroaching? MR. HOLT-I would just like to have my 20 feet on the side. MRS. HOLT-I'd just like to say, for many years I've lived in an apartment setting and it's nice to have a home with space and to have someone come closer than the side, it's like, I just feel like I'm back in crowded living and it's just nice to have space. MR. SICARD-What's on the other side? MR. HOLT-A mobile home park. MR. SICARD-A mobile home park is on the other side. Would it be feasible if this house were just moved the other way. 11 ~ -' -../ MR. HOLT-On the other side of his place.. MR. SICARD-We're looking at 4 feet..side setback and he's got 16. If the setback were to be granted on the other side instead of that side and the house was moved over, it would be facing the mobile home park.. MR. HOLT-No, there's a house on the other side. MR. SICARD-There is a house on the other side? MR. KING-Yes. MRS. GOETZ-Okay, one thought that came up down here at the end of the table was to put the garage behind the house. Make a narrower house, so that you weren't encroaching on the side lines and possibly come in from the back, is that what you were saying? MR. CARR-Have you considered putting the garage in the back and having the entrance to the garage as a... MR. KING-In the back, these people, and most everybody else has a high fence there because of this logging business in the back. So, if you had a garage to the back, you could enter from the other street, but all the houses there all have fences up excep t this lot, that's only a 75 foot lot. Also, these peop le are in the process of erecting, have half up, a 6 foot high fence adjacent to the line. They're going to be looking at their fence, is what I'm saying. MR. TURNER-On the side line? MR. KING-On the side line. It's a new fence and they have it six foot high. Also, there's an existing fence there now that's only 10 feet from the line, that's probably 30 years old. (TAPE TURNED) This would be an improvement, is what I'm saying. It would be an improvement to what's there now. MR. SHEA-Mr. King, can we see your plans, once again, please? MR. KELLEY-You've got 35 feet.. 20 foot, both sides. Then you've got an overhang that is a foot..might be looking at living room, kitchen, bath, bedroom, bedroom, bedroom. MR. KING-It would be pretty hard to box it in. This would be the living rOOm here. It would be narrow. You'd have to have a door and a little window here. It wouldn't be a very functional.. if you have to walk through the dining room and living room to get to the garage, which is okay, that wouldn't make any difference, but still, you have to put a window here and you'd be looking at a six foot fence..side yard. What I'm saying, here, is you're going to be looking at the road. It's too narrow..12 foot. You put a 3 foot window here. A 3 foot door...all you got is 3 foot left. All you can put is a small window in there. MR. SHEA-The reason I asked whether it was a stick built or whether it was a packaged home, is that it would be my opinion, that if it is a stick built, when you're in the planning stages, that there has got to be a creative way to allow you to meet the square footage that you think you need from the rental point of view to make it financially worthwhile and yet, still conform to the setback requirements. MR. the MR. the KING-Well, I'd say business back there, SHEA-But you have, back? if we could enter from the other street, but because of it's what do you figure for the back yard, what available in MR. KING-There's a lot of room on the land. MR. KELLEY-You've got 59 feet of depth, that's on this... from here to your back line, 59 feet. MR. KING-Well, I just probably won't build anything on there. MR. KELLEY-I guess what that leaves us with MR. KING-It's possible to build something else, but it wouldn't look right is what I'm saying. 12 '- -- MR. KELLEY-I think what we're saying is, there are feasible alternatives, I guess would be the terminology we would use. We aren't denying you the use of the lot, at this point, by making you conform to the setbacks because there, possibly, are other alternatives and I guess my feeling would be, I know you like this plan all that sort of thing, but I think maybe I'd like to see you explore something that, possibly, could fit without needing the variance. MR. KING-I did mention that all the other homes, there are five, 75 foot all totaled, on this street and they have all closer than 20 foot setbacks. like 10 foot on most of them. lots, More MR. KELLEY-I would say that area probably got re-zoned as of October.. MR. KING-That's right, these setbacks, it's the new zoning that creates this problem, really. MRS. EGGLESTON-I think we agree with Jeff and we'd like to alternative to this and I might be more sympathetic to this if I thought it wasn't rental property. If it was for their rental property, I just think there are reasonable alternatives the setbacks. see, maybe, an gentleman I s cause own use, but the to staying within MR. TURNER-Mr. King, would you care to table this, at this point until you come up with an alternative, in case you have to come back? MR. KING-Yes, that would be the best thing to do, perhaps. I don't know, you could probably just act on it and if I do come up with something, I could come back with something different. MR. TURNER-Well, if we table it, you won't have to pay another fee for the application to be changed. MR. KING-That's true. Yes, that would be good if you could do that, please. MRS. GOETZ-And, how long would this be tabled for? MR. TURNER-How long would you, is a month enough time or would you like? MR. KING-No, I would say, I'm busy now, well, yes, I think a month would be alright. MR. TURNER-Okay. MOTION TO TABLE AREA VARIANCE NO. 35-1990 VICTOR J. KING, Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved for its adoption, seconded by Charles Sicard: At the applicant's request, Variance No. 35-1990, will be tabled. The applicant is taking one month to explore other alternatives in the house design. Duly adopted this 16th day of May, 1990, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Kelley, Mr. Shea, Mr. Sicard, Mrs. Goetz, Mrs. Eggleston, Mr. Carr, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE MR. TURNER-Mr. Holt, you said you're building a fence 6 feet high on your side yard? MR. HOLT-Yes. MR. TURNER-You're in violation of the Ordinance, 3 feet high. MR. HOLT-I'll take it down. MR. TURNER-Residential Zone, it's 3 feet on the side. on the side. Six feet in the rear, 3 AREA VARIANCE 36-1990 WR.-lA TYPE II DR. ROBERT L. EVANS OWNER: SAKE AS ABOVE MASON ROAD, CLEVERDALE, 7TH, WHITE HOUSE ON LEFT ON HARRIS BAY FOR CONVERSION OF THE EXISTING L-SHAPED DOCK INTO A 32 FT. BY 38 FT. U-SHAPED DOCK AND BOATHOUSE. REQUESTING RELIEF FROM SIDE SETBACK. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) TAX HAP NO. 13-1-18 LOT SIZE: ±o.47 ACRES SECTION 7.012(A)(2)(E) BOB STEWART, REPRESENTING THE APPLICANT, PRESENT 13 '-- ~ MR. STEWART-Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ladies and Gentleman of the Board, my name is Bob Stewart, a lawyer in Glens Falls, and I'm here, tonight, speaking on behalf of Dr. Evans. Dr. Evans and his wife Cheryl own a home on Cleverdale on Lake George and they live there year round. I'm not going to re-hash the application, but there was always, actually, a U-shaped dock in front that property for a decade, I just don't know how far back. Some time ago, the interior leg, the one that ran parallel to the shore, disintegrated, leaving an L-shaped dock which Dr. Evans has used since he's owned the property and as I've indicated in the application, what he'd like to do is to rebuild the inside crib same length and size as the outside crib, making it back into a U-shape to support a roof. I have here, and I would pass along, in case you haven't had a chance to see the property, pictures of the boathouse as it presently exists. I mentioned, when I dictated that application, that he couldn't make it any shorter because of the 32 foot boat he wants to put in. There's really more to it than that. The existing size of the slip is that size. It's been that size forever. We're not making it any bigger, that's the way it is with the stone cribbing and that's the way it's been for many decades. All we're doing is just putting the wing back on to finish off the U to help support the roof. The question, then, in simplest form, is, if he has an existing boat slip, he has the right to use it to go in and out. The question is can he have a roof over it, that seems to be, in simplest form, what we're talking about. I have brought with me, and I would hand to you, written consent forms by the neighbor immediately to the north and the neighbor immediately to the south and then one other house, two houses to the south and the Abbott's are the neighbors immediately to the south who would be most effected by the flow of boat traffic in and out, then, again, as it's always been and they have also signed a consent and I would offer that for your records. MRS. GOETZ-One thing I noticed, at the site inspection, was the antique boat still was sticking out further than the dock. I wondered about that. MR. STEWART-Incidentally, the second boat is not Dr. Evans. dock down that's stored there. The neighbors.. his MRS. GOETZ-Right, but the antique boat. His wife explained that that wasn't his boat. . MR. STEWART-It could be that it's not pulled all the way in to the nose, but what we did not do is make it larger by adding a foot or two to the old dock. We left it exactly the size it has always been. MR. TURNER-You've got to put new cribs in on the shore? MR. STEWART-New cribs were put in on the shore when he thought he had all the permits from the Park Commission and Encon. The other is the same, that's always been. MRS. GOETZ-And the way that boat sticks out does not cause a problem, in damaging the boat? MR. STEWART-To the extent that there's any area where you don't have sun over it, there's always a problem with the varnish wood boat. MRS. GOETZ-I'm just curious. MR. STEWART-You use a canvas or some sort of a curtain or something to help, the other alternative is to try to extend the boat dock another couple of feet and we don't want to go in any closer...and you wouldn't let us. MRS. GOETZ-Well, I'm just curious because we had an application not long ago at the old Goetz property at Assembly Point where they said they had to have a longer dock because their skiing platform stuck out, about the length of that boat, sO it's all very educational, isn't it. MR. STEWART-Well, a 32 foot boat is about as long a power boat as, normally, you're going to see on Lake George, but the dock has always been that size and we just left it exactly the way it was. We think we can protect the boat with it. MR. KELLEY-The plan shows the distance from the dock to the property line as being 10 feet 9 inches. That probably doesn't take into consideration that 2 foot overhang on the roof. 14 --- MR. STEWART-It may not. We measured from the end of the inside dock, the new dock that was bui¡t, to a surveyor's stake which has just been p¡aced in the ground at the boundary ¡ine as a resu¡t of a recent survey and that distance is 10 feet 9 inches. DR. ROBERT EVANS MR. STEWART-This is Dr. Evans, the owner of the property in question. DR. EVANS-Jeff, to respond to your question, the measurement from the roof ¡ine to the stake is 10 foot 9 inches. MR. KELLEY-That is from the roof, then? DR. EVANS-That' a right, and a¡ao, in responae to Mra. Goetz, I don't know if, I wasn't there, I don't know if my wife had my boat pu¡¡ed in a¡¡ the way. Becauae of the fact that it'a not covered anyway, the rain comea down, the aun comea down. At this point, it rea¡¡y doesn't matter if there'a no coverage at a¡¡ on the boat, but if it's pu¡¡ed in proper¡y, we're not ¡engthening the dock, current¡y, and if it is pu¡¡ed in, it just fita in under the... MRS. GOETZ-I know thia doe~m't rea¡¡y have a ¡ot to do with your app¡ication, but for our own information, I think it's good to know a¡¡ of thia. DR. EVANS-Right. It wou¡d be covered if she has it pu¡¡ed in. MR. STEWART-Incidenta¡¡y, we are not arguing, becauae we have a¡ready started the project, we have aome hardahip. Obvioua¡y, that'a not the ¡aw, and we understand it. By the same token, I don't want you to think that Dr. Evana just thought he was going to boH hia way through and aneak it up. The builder for Fort Ann, who norma¡¡y doea not bui¡d in Queensbury, got the permit from the Lake George Park Commission, got the permit from Encon, and thought he'd gotten a¡l the permits necessary. The new amendment to the Zoning Ordinance, in the Fall of 1988, sudden¡y gave Queensbury jurisdiction over al¡ docks. So, there's still a third agency that you have to go through and they got booby trapped and, again, I'm not offering this as an argument for hardship. I just don't want you to think that he was being arrogant or didn't try to obey the ¡aw. MR. TURNER-Was Jack Davies the bui¡der? MR. STEWART-Yes. MRS. EGGLESTON-I think Mrs. Evans mentioned putting a top on this, on top of the boathouse? MR. STEWART-A railing, you mean? MRS. EGGLESTON- Is it just going to be a railing or does he, you're not going to close it in? MR. STEWART-No, just a rai¡ing for safety sO that nobody wi¡¡ fa¡¡ off. MRS. EGGLESTON-Because the house to the ¡eft a¡ready has a ¡arge boathouse and one on this side and then more structure on top is certain¡y going to interfere with their view and I know a ¡ot of peop¡e won't say, I'm g¡ad they didn't do that, but, because they don't want to hurt their neighbor, but that doesn't mean that they're necessari¡y in favor. They don't want to create hard fee¡ings, then. MR. STEWART-We¡¡, our appHcation, if I can find the right piece, does show the drawing showing that it wi¡¡ have posts, not a so¡id rai¡ing. MR. TURNER-Yes, it's on the back, spind¡es. MR. STEWART-And we have no objection if you make that a specific condition of your approva¡, that it be that and not a so¡id rai¡ing. MRS. GOETZ-But does that even come within our jurisdiction, the roof? MR. STEWART-I suppose if you grant a variance, you can MR. TURNER-They're going to the P¡anning Board anyway. They can hand¡e this. 15 "-- MR. STEWART-Without it, this is in front of Dr. Evans' house also and he doesn't want to block his view and, incidentally, this is not a boathouse, in that, we're not asking permission to have any walls or side.. this is going to be completely open except for the roof overhead. MRS. COLLARD-Did I understand that this is going to be taken out, or are we going to end up with an E-shaped dock? MR. STEWART-This is going to be a U-shaped dock, that's Our application. MR. SICARD-She's talking about the center piece. MR. STEWART-There will be a very narrow center piece just so you've got something to tie the boat to. MRS. COLLARD-Okay, sO this would not be considered an E-shaped dock? MR. TURNER-No. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes, why not. MR. TURNER-Why wouldn't it? MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes, it definitely is an E. MR. CARR-It's an E, not a U. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes, it has a line, it's cut in the middle, with three prongs. MR. CARR-You're making two slips out of one. Can I ask you, what is the effect of an E-shaped dock? MRS. COLLARD-Well, an E-shaped dock can only be where the lots are 150 feet wide. So, he would need a variance to build an E-shaped dock there. MR. STEWART-Actually, it's just a place to tie that side of the boat. Boats would normally be tied on the low side. I suppose, probably, we could remove that and put a few posts in there. It's not going to be wide enough so you're going to walk up and down it. It's just wide enough to hold the upright post so you can tie off your boat. MR. SICARD-It won't be used as a dock. a dock, it'll be used as a tie. That center piece will not be used as MR. STEWART-Right. MR. SICARD-I think the only objection to that. .you could use that a post or something..to use it as a tie, just as a tie. MR. STEWART-..tie a boat off some other way, but it's all the same. MR. SICARD-The same as you'd tie off a boat on the Lake. MR. STEWART-My boathouse is built exactly that way. wide enough to nail to the post. The center thing is just MR. TURNER-Just a walkway. MR. SHEA- It looks like aU-shaped dock with a center tie, to me. MR. STEWART-That's what I think it looks like, too. MR. KELLEY-I mean, it's not a crib dock? MR. STEWART-No. MR. KELLEY-There's a middle and I think the other thing is, when people talk about docks and how they're des igned, in theory, you're p robab ly cons idering how many boats can you put there. ...of that middle section, he's going to put two boats there whether it's there or not. MR. STEWART-Right. 16 - MR. KELLEY-So, he's not doing it because he wants to increase his dock facilities. MR. STEWART-He doesn I t get any closer to the neighbor, doesn't effect anyone's view and doesn't have any more boats than he's always been able to have. He's always been able to have two boats there. MR. SICARD-If that center piece were four feet wide and the dock was big enough to accommodate, you'd be able to tie up four boats, four boats and you've got an E-shaped dock. MR. STEWART-That's right. MR. CARR-You can tie up four boats to an E-shaped dock? MR. STEWART-If you had a wide enough slip so you could put two boats in each slip and then you've got two slips, you could get up to four boats. MR. SICARD-Then you'd have to use it to walk on, the center piece, the E. MR. STEWART-To get to the center boat, you have no access to that. MRS. COLLARD-We're just going by the definition of dock on Page 9 of the Zoning Ordinance and by that definition, I would say you've got an E-shaped dock here. MRS. EGGLESTON-I think he does. MR. TURNER-You've got a walkway between them. You can access the boat from either side, that makes it an E. MR. STEWART-Well, except that the post gets in the way. You'd have to swing around the post because the post is the width of the MR. TURNER-Well,..post on the print show on each side of the walkway. MR. STEWART-Does it? I see what you're saying. DR. EVANS-Basically, it is a tie to tie the supports together..roof up above. MR. TURNER-I understand, but what I'm saying is, you've got a walkway down the middle which is probably about a foot wide. DR. EVANS-It's like a tight rope, basically. MR. TURNER-Yes, right, but I mean it does give you access to the boat on either side of the slip. DR. EVANS-If you want a balancing act, basically. MR. TURNER-Well, it's whether you walk on the flat of your feet or your tip toe. DR. EVANS-I guess if that were the strict interpretation. What I was going to say, basically, it 'a a tie, you can access the boats on both sides, it's a tie that supports the beama, that.. MR. TURNER-Yea, but you've got a walkway to access the boat. That's an E-shaped dock. MR. STEWART-Does anybody have a copy of that because, frankly, I did not pick up on that. MR. SHEA-Dr. Evans, the difficulty appears to be in the design of the boathouse and how that impacts the definition and if it is to be considered atrictly an E-shaped boathouse, then another variance would be required. DR. EVANS-If that were removed MR. SHEA-If that were removed MR. TURNER-That eliminates the issue. MR. SICARD-Pat, supposing that E did not connect with the back piece that it's hooked into now.. .space there, 3, 5 feet or something. Do you understand what I'm saying? 17 -' MRS. COLLARD-Yes, th&t's good, Ch&rlie. MR. SICARD-It's not &n E then, is it? MRS. COLLARD-I c&n't think of & letter that that would be similar to, no. MR. STEWART-On the pedestrian access, the definition says, it provides pedestrian access to the shore. This little slip in the middle doesn't provide pedestrian access to the shore. MR. TURNER-It doesn't? MR. STEWART-No. MR. CARR-I think that's & pretty strict interpretation, Bob. DR. EVANS-If that were removed, I mean I'm willing to compromise. MR. STEWART-The post can stin stay. st&y. I know of no reason that says the.. can't MR. TURNER-pun the nails and the boards and get them off there and you've got a U-shaped dock and you're all set. MR. STEWART-And then, I take it so we don't fly under any false colors, if you or your builder feel, for some reason, that it's highly beneficial to reinstate it, you can come back another time before this Board, discuss it, and they can say yes or they can say no, at that point. At least that doesn't lose you the summer with your boat now. DR. EVANS-Fine. Acceptable. MR. TURNER-It would be a U instead of an E. MR. STEWART-A U instead of an E. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED NO COMMENT PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED CORRESPONDENCE MRS. GOETZ-Mr. Stewart, did you have consent to build that you wanted to file, by neighbors? MR. STEWART-Yes. I gave those to Mr. Turner. Warren County Planning Board approved STAFF INPUT Notes from Stuart G. Baker, Assistant Planner (attached) MR. BAKER-If I may, I would like to amend one portion of my Staff Comments. The actual distance of the existing L-shaped dock from the property line is not 21 feet. That is how it scales out to be. Mr. Stewart has pointed out to me that the dock is not drawn on the site plan to scale and the actual existing distance is shorter. MRS. GOETZ-What is it? MR. STEWART-Well; I think the best way to answer it is this. Here's the survey and the surveyor sketched in the dock. The dock, apparently, was not the major point of concentration. The two wings are going to be identical in.. We have measured this out, precisely, at 10 feet 9 inches. This is the same, however, the dock is askew and is shown on as askew. So, there could be a variation of a foot or so there, but not 10 feet. I mean, there just is no way and we have measured this. They have scaled it and, obvious ly, this dock is not p laced on the property precisely, but our request is to have it the distance we state in our application and no closer, but there's no 21 foot of distance and, again, we want to be exactly where we are now, no more, no less and the boat pattern coming in with the exact..it's been all these years. 18 '- '--" MR. TURNER-What would be the co~t of putting that dock on the other wing going the other way? Do you have a figure? MR. STEWART-I don't have a figure. MR. TURNER-Do you have a figure, doctor? DR. EVANS-Cribbing and that alone, putting in ~tone and moving that, we're talking, probably, $20,000. Ten~ of thou~and~ of dollar~, in term~ of crib work. Current now, that'~ exi~ting now, ju~t to frame that, alone, wa~ $10,000 and the cribs now, getting e~timate~, we're talking $10-$20,000 for crib work, the length that it would require. So, it would be a very great expense. MR. STEWART-You'd have to do two thing~, I think, Mr. Turner, one i~ you'd have to tear out the exi~ting crib ~o you can gain entrance from an area that you no longer have and then you'd have to clo~e in the ~ide that I ~ now open and rebuild cribs on that ~ide. So, it'~ a..project. MR. TURNER-I know, but I ju~t wanted to.. becau~e that we are.. or he could ~ay it I ~ a ~elf created hard~hip. 32 feet long. i~ an alternative. Here He went and bought a boat MR. STEWART-But I don't really think we're ba~ing our case on that. We're basing our ca~e on the fact that the dock, the ~lip, has always been 32 feet long. MR. TURNER-I under~tand. MR. STEWART-We're entitled, a~ a matter of law, to a covered boat ~lip. Everybody on Lake George i~ entitled to a covered boat ~lip. The que~tion i~, doe~ putting a cover on the exi~ting boat ~lip create some ~ort of a problem or hard~hip or change the character of the.. MR. TURNER-All it doe~ i~ violate the ~etback. MR. STEWART-Except that it'~ the ~ame ~etback that it alway~ wa~. MOTION TO APPROVE AREA VARIANCE NO. 36-1990 DR. ROBERT L. EVANS, Introduced by Michael Shea who moved for it~ adoption, ~econded by Bruce Carr: Thh i~ for relief of a ~ide ~etback. Thi~ variance wouldn't be detrimental to the Zoning Ordinance. There i~ a preexisting, nonconforming ~ituation of the prior crib dock. The applicant i~ reque~ting minimal relief on the side setback. The ~etback will be 10 feet 9 inche~, a minimum relief of 9 feet 3 inche~. Duly adopted thi~ 16th day of May, 1990, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Kelley, Mr. Shea, Mr. Sicard, Mr~. Goetz, Mr~. Eggle~ton, Mr. Carr, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE AREA VARIANCE NO. 37-1990 TYPE: UNLISTED SR-lA CRAIG AND BARBARA. MEADE OWNER: SAKE AS ABOVE FIRST LEFT ON ROCKWELL ROAD FROM SUNNYSIDE TO REMOVE THE EXISTING MOBILE HOME AND REPLACE IT WITH A ONE FAMILY DWELLING. RELIEF NEEDED FROM ROAD FRONTAGE REQUIREMENT. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) TAX MAP NO. 54-6-10 LOT SIZE: ±o.30 ACRES SECTION 7.071 CRAIG MEADE, PRESENT MR. MEADE-My name'~ Craig Meade. MR. TURNER-Anyone have a que~tion for Mr. Meade? I~ thi~ what ~he wa~ referring to? MR. BAKER-I believe ~o. MR. TURNER-Sue,. .build on thi~ property ~ince la~t time. Thh i~ a preexisting lot of record. MR. CARR-Pat, would you like to comment? 19 ~ -/ MR. TURNER-Do you want to make a comment on thia application? MRS. GOETZ-Or was it Karla that, she, made the comment? MRS. COLLARD-Not at all, no. a different matter. It's very aelf-explanatory. That' a not, thia ia MR. TURNER-Than the one we talked about? MRS. COLLARD-Yes. MRS. GOETZ- Ia it to do with thia let ter from Karla? Do you want me to read the letter from Karla? Okay. (Letter from Karla Corpua, Deputy Town Attorney, to Patricia Collard, Zoning Adminiatrator, dated May 7th, 1990 (on file) MR. CARR-Ia it in our packeta? MS. CORPUS-Yes. Are there any queations from the Board regarding that (Letter)? MR. CARR-Yea, ia there caae law on that? MS. CORPUS-Yea, I was hoping you'd take a break ao I Law. Basically, it has to do with the issuance of doean't really revolve around a variance iasue itaelf. Inapector couldn't grant a building permit. could go get my book on Town a building permit, okay? It In other worda, the Building MR. CARR-Wait a minute, now. He can't, even if it's a preexiating lot prior to- MS. CORPUS-It'a irrelevant. MR. CARR-That'a irrelevant? There's case law on it that aaya MS. CORPUS-And that's why they went into the mapa. If it 'a on a subdivision map, even if it were a private road on a subdivision map, and we've had thia come before the Board before, where it was a private road shown on a subdivision map, whether it was approved by the Planning Board or not, as long as it was filed in the County Clerk's Office or if it was a State or other official highway or if we had aome aort of official map. Apparently, some citiea in thia atate have what they call "official maps", they map out all their atreets. MR. CARR-Okay, but, I guess, all I want to know ia, there ia case law that saya for a preexiating lot that does not have road frontage, it ahould be denied until this permit? MS. CORPUS-Correct. MR. CARR-Even if they were in existence prior to the Ordinance taking effect? MS. CORPUS-It's really, it's not totally dependent on the Ordinance, on the change of Ordinance itself, Okay. MR. CARR-..anything to do with the Ordinance? MS. CORPUS-No, it's just a Town Law section. Oura, we have the new, have written something in our Ordinance that sort of goes along, it's more restrictive than the Town Law, actually. We're requiring 40 feet of accesa, where the Town Law requires 15 feet. MR. CARR-Okay, but according to our Ordinance, if it's a nonconformance prior to the Ordinance, I mean in general terma, not this particular iasue, they don't need approval of the Board. MS. CORPUS-Okay, I think it' a the Zoning AdminÍ$trator' s interpretation that the isaue of nonconformity doean't go to the road frontage isaue. MR. CARR-What would be Mr. Meade's, or, as I said, we've got other issues, what would be their relief if they were denied a building permit? I mean, if he didn't need a variance because it's preexisting MS. CORPUS-Let's just say that it 'a a very atrong argument for granting a variance, the requirement of the Town Law and the fact that they could not use thia lot. MR. CARR-But does a variance override state law? I mean, we're not talking about an Ordinance rule, now, we're talking about a atate law that says you cannot iasue a building permit. 20 - MR. TURNER-Our~ i~ more restrictive, theirs is only.. MR. CARR-Right, but MS. CORPUS-We do have something in our Ordinance which deals with private road~, too, but it say~ the acce~s has to be for fire trucks right-of-way with the public collector street. MR. MEADE-Can say something? In' 86 we bought this lot. Before we bought it, we came to the Planning Board and a~ked them if we could build on it in the future and they ~aid, at that time, there would be no problem..setback~. MR. SICARD-Did you get that in a document? Have you got a letter on that? MR. MEADE-No. MR. TURNER-They don't get one. MR. CARR-11m not arguing against you, Mr. Meade. I want you to know that. I'm arguing for you, because I think the law's denying use of your land. MS. CORPUS-I wanted to go run over and get the right section because I brought the wrong book with me. I can't remember off the top of my head, Bruce. I don't have all the cases ~itting in front of me. MR. CARR-It just seem~ l.ike there woul.d be, if that is a state law, there's no rel.ief from that ~tate law. MRS. COLLARD-Well, all I can say is, in my previous job as Zoning Administrator in another town in New York State, we had l.ittl.e, private roads that went down to Lake Ontario and when each person wanted to build on a lot off that private road, down to that Lake, they had to come into the Zoning Board and get a variance from 280-a Town Law. It was just a pain in the neck for everybody, but it had to be done, that's my only experience with it. MS. CORPUS-The Municipal Home Rule Law allows us to, this is part of what we did when we created the Zoning Ordinance, was to override the Town Law, Bruce. MR. MEADE-We can't do anything with that lot. We can't sel.l. it. MRS. COLLARD-Bruce, it's just that a buil.ding permit cannot be issued. MR. CARR-Right. MRS. COLLARD-And this section of our Ordinance dealing with it takes from 280-a Town Law. MS. CORPUS-Right, and I think what you're getting at is the enabl.ing statute that all.ows u~ to do that is a Municipal Home Rul.e Law. MR. CARR-Okay, that we can override the state law. MS. CORPUS-Right, we often do it with our l.ocal. laws. We often do it, other local laws. MR. SICARD-How ol.d is that decision, 15 feet? MS. CORPUS-How old is the law? If I had the book, I could read it. It's very old. MRS. COLLARD- It's very old and I think that's why the Town of Queensbury made it. . MS. CORPUS-And I think, as a practical matter, the Meade's have an additional difficulty because they're granted a right-of-way only X amount of feet across other people's property. There's no way, as I see it, legally, that the Meade's can widen that acce~s point without going to each of the neighbors, but, again, that'~ another argument for granting a variance. MR. CARR-It just seems that, as Pat says, this is wa~ting, I wish there was a better an~wer that, I mean, I don't bel.ieve we have grounds to deny them. 21 - -...../ MRS. COLLARD-You don't. MR. CARR-It ¡;¡eem¡;¡ like it's wasting everybody's money. and it's wasting their time. It's wasting our time MRS. COLLARD-That's true. I think we should let New York State know this. It is, I agree. It's a bother for everybody, but it has to be done. MR. TURNER-It i¡;¡. It's terrible. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED NO COMMENT PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED CORRESPONDENCE Letter from Betty Monahan: I am the adjoining property owner on two ¡;¡ides of the applicant and I fully ¡;¡upport their application for a reque¡;¡t for a variance so that they can place a house on their lot in lieu of the mobile home that has existed on that lot ¡;¡ince the time they purchased it. My parent¡;¡, Preston and Bessie Carpenter, originally owned the property from which this lot and the adjoining one were created. At that time, of cour¡;¡e, the¡;¡e were legal building lots and you could have a lot fronting on a right-of-way. My parent¡;¡ created the right-of-way to serve these two lots, the back of the property I now own, and the property beyond the¡;¡e lots that my parents still own. It wa¡;¡ always assumed by my parent¡;¡ that at sometime, when condition¡;¡ warranted, a hou¡;¡e would be built on the lot now owned by Craig and Barbara Meade. I hope this background on the Meade's lot will be helpful to you in your decision making proces¡;¡. Warren County Planning Board approved STAFF INPUT Note¡;¡ from John Goral¡;¡ki, Planner (attached) MOTION TO APPROVE AREA VARIANCE NO. 37-1990 CRAIG AND BARBARA MEADE, Introduced by Jeffrey Kelley who moved for its adoption, ¡;¡econded by Joyce Eggleston: The practical difficulty is that this lot doe¡;¡n' t front on a Town approved road. By not granting the variance, you would be denying them use of the land. No adverse effect on public facilities, neighborhood, or the Zoning Ordinance. No neighborhood opposition. This is a rea¡;¡onable request. Thi¡;¡ is a preexisting, nonconforming lot of record. Duly adopted this 16th day of May, 1990, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Kelley, Mr. Shea, Mr. Sicard, Mrs. Goetz, Mrs. Eggle¡;¡ton, Mr. Carr, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE MR. MEADE-I had one question. If we decide to sell, ¡;¡ay 10 years down the road, are we going to have to go through this again, or once you make a decÍ/:don on it? MR. TURNER-It ¡;¡tands. MR. BAKER-You will have it in writing. MR. MEADE-Okay. Thank you. MR. CARR-How long has 280 been in existence for this? MS. CORPUS-I don't know, but, just the fact that it only requires 15 feet acces¡;¡, according to the law. MR. CARR-..pre-existed that law. MRS. COLLARD-I've been doing thi¡;¡ for 15 years now and it's been in effect all those years. 22 -- MS. CORPUS- I know, Bruce, I had a client who wa~ buying property in Wa~hington County on a subdivision that did not front on a public road and nobody wa~ aware of this particular ~ection of the law. So, it's not unusual that it's not known. AREA VARIANCE NO. 38-1990 TYPE II WK.-lA GORMAN H. RICH OWNER: SAKE AS ABOVE JAY ROAD, GLEN LAKE, LAST HOUSE ON RIGHT FOR CONSTRUCTION OF A SECOND ONE CAR GARAGE. REQUESTING RELIEF FROM SIDE AND WATERFRONT SETBACK REQUIREMENTS. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) TAX MAP NO. 43-1-3 & 4 LOT SIZE: ±o.52 ACRES SECTIONS 4.020(D), 7.010, 7.074 GORMAN RICH, PRESENT MRS. GOETZ-One of the things, is this where we had the variance before, for the deck? MR. TURNER-Yea. MRS. GOETZ-The plot plan, where the septic is? The septic is back here. MR. TURNER-He's got a one car garage right there. MRS. GOETZ-Right, I aaw it. It just seems like your mapping out the whole property with buildings, by this proposal. MR. RICH-Well, that is part of a garage. a garage on it. is a complete, separate lot and the only thing on the lot I'm paying taxes on a whole, complete lot and I've got half MR. TURNER-A present garage. MR. RICH-Yes, I desperately need space because you can only park almost two cars. You can't even make the turn there to get out there.. unless I have the garage that I can pull into. We can't park on the road because.. road. We'd have to park on the grass and that's where the septic tank is. I hate to park over the septic tank. MR. TURNER-Well, from the present garage to the property line you've got 34 feet 6 inches, is that correct? MR. RICH-Right because the lot is 40 feet 6 inches, that's pretty well to scale. MR. TURNER-Why couldn't you adjoin that garage with the other garage? MR. RICH-You can't because the well's there. MR. TURNER-Where? MR. RICH-The well is right, I guess... MR. KELLEY-Right in the middle. MR. SHEA-He's right between the two. MR. TURNER-I see. MR. SICARD-It's just Glen Lake water anyway. MR. RICH-No, that's 375 feet down. MR. SICARD-It is? MR. RICH-Yes. MR. SICARD-I don't think it was there when I was there. MR. RICH-It's a deep well. MR. SICARD-You're sure you're not measuring out the weight there, someplace? MR. RICH-I didn't drop a rope down, but that's what he told me. There is a deep well there. 23 '- ----- MR. SICARD-I owned that corner, at one time, the water's ice cold. MR. TURNER-How far is that away from the wall of the garage? I went up there and looked, but I didn't see it. MR. RICH-Well, it'll be divide, probably, equally between the two buildings. MR. TURNER-So, about 2 and a half feet from the wall to the present garage or the well? MR. RICH-For the present garage it's about MR. TURNER-Two and a half feet? MR. RICH-Three feet or so. MR. TURNER-Three feet? MR. RICH-Yes. I have to have access to pull up..if I have to, that's why I can't cover it. I can give you the slope of the present garage. I wouldn't have enough.. overhead doors and would have to have. . appearance of the whole building, that slope is perfect. It came out nice. MRS. GOETZ-You'll have to put quite a bit of fill in, right? MR. RICH-No, well, they'll be about 2 and a half feet of rock fill inside of, well, I have a..I'm not a great artist. What this is, the grade is right here, we'll be filling in just about 2 and a half to 3 feet. It varies from 2 and a half to about 3. That's a divide wall, it brings it up to this grade..1eve1, so it won't be much. It will be mostly cobble stone rock. There's going to be a monolithic slab, but it's going to be reinforced. It'll be at the same level as the house. MRS. GOETZ-I feel that, sometimes you just have to realize that you have certain limitations to a piece of property and I'm influenced by the purpose which is outlined in the Waterfront Residential section of the Zoning Ordinance where one of the things that we wanted to remember was, not being detrimental to the visual character of the shoreline. MR. RICH-But it doesn't effect the shoreline at all. MRS. GOETZ-But when I was up doing the site inspection, the man across the street from you was concerned about blocking his view of the Lake. MR. RICH-Well believe that or not, he told me that he's all for it. I went around and asked everybody and they said no, there I s no problem, because he built his house within a foot and a half of the line. MR. SICARD-His house blocks the view of the Lake. MR. RICH-He blocks my whole side because he made the house twice as big as what it was before and blocks the whole view of that whole side. MR. SICARD-You can't see the Lake at all.. MR. RICH-No, he blocked it off. If he's crabbing, then he put a septic tank right there by the road. I haven't said a word about it. I don't care. there's something wrong and He broke about 45 rules and MRS. GOETZ-You don't care if people break the rules? MR. RICH-No, but what he did was enhance the area from the shack that was there before it burned. So, I wouldn't change, he had to have a home and he's entitled to it and he had the lot. The lots are the size that are there, that's what we were awarded. Those lots were plotted and that's what it was, at the time. So, he was entitled to get his home and he made it better. I would not object to anything being better. It was higher. Twice as high as it was before. It was closer to the road. It was wider. The dock's are bigger. He put a lot of fill in. He did a lot of things. Now, I didn't object to that at all. So, here I'm building on a lot that I'm being taxed on and I have no use for the lot. So, maybe I could put a house there. I'll take off half the garage and 1'11 apply for a house. 24 '- .- MRS. GOETZ-How long have you owned the houae? MR. RICH~Thia ia my third aeaaon, I believe. MRS. GOETZ-And he rebuilt aince you bought the houae? MR. RICH-Yes. MRS. GOETZ-He had a variance, right? MRS. EGGLESTON-He told us, though, it was very atrictly rebuilt, that he had to put it in the aame footprint that it had been before and he wanted to build a garage and he didn't have rOOm and they wouldn't let him and he didn't build it. MR. RICH-He haa hardly any windowa on that aide of the houae. All of hÜ view is toward the Lake, that'a the roadaide and if you can't really aee anything from that aide, there'a only one amall window..aecond atory..looka right over and moat of the view ia from up above and he look a right over it. It doean' t obatruct anything, really. It really, it would make the area better. If you look around, you'll aee that everything' a been done properly. It' a juat the fact that if I move up there, I have no place for a car. I have a large car. I have no place for lawn mowera and other equipment. I don't have anything. I've got to park on the graaa. I figure if I have at leaat that area to pull the car off the road, I can have the parking behind the car and not have to clutter up the area, then I could put aome graaa in. I've been holding off putting graaa in becauae everybody parka there. In fact, the neighbora next door turn around on it. Every time I go up, they've got, everybody that works at their houae, parka on my graaa. MR. TURNER-Yea, well you've almoat got to. MR. RICH-Yea. MR. TURNER-There'a no place to park. MR. RICH-That'a why I figured if I put thia building back and my..it doean't bother anybody's view from that side. They have nothing on that side but wide lawn and MR. SICARD-It would really alleviate all your problema. MR. RICH-But, really, it would enhance the area tremendously and alleviate a tremendous problem. By putting that there. It limita me to only one car. I don't look for, you can't get two cara in there, no matter what, but I'd have a p lace for a lawn mower, a li t t le work bench, ao forth and it'll be done, in this caae,... everything will be nice. I want nice. It'll be beautiful when it'a done. There's a ahed there now. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. RICH-It'a uglier than hell. MR. TURNER-Yea, you're right. Did you put it up? MR. RICH-No, that waa there. The building waa 8 inchea on the level when I bought it. MR. KELLEY-Are you going to keep the preaent one car that'a there? MR. RICH-Yes, I figured I might have a amall car. There'a only one car..there'a a boat in there, aa a storage area. It'a off to the aide and then I have a Cadillac which I've alwaya owned and I have to have 20 or 22 feet at leaat and it juat cleara the door. So, I think the 30 feet, it'll give me enough rOom to get the car in and put a work bench. For me, I don't think they III be any windowa on the aidea, I think they'll be juat windowa to the rear, unlesa I put one in for ventilation, but, baaically, it'll be just, becauae I don't want break in'a or anything from my equipment and that would be at a little higher level. It'll be pretty well protected from vandaliam. .windowa and they haven't had a thing miaaing out there. It' a a very nice neighborhood. There haan' t been a thing touched, bothered, anywhere, nothing. Doora are open. People walk in and nothing'a been touched. 25 --- MR. KELLEY-So, in the propo~ed garage, you're going to put your Cadillac? MR. RICH-Right. MR. KELLEY-And your lawn mower? MR. RICH-Lawn mower, work bench. I use a lot of peat moss and stuff I store there becau~e I'm a gardener. It'll be, it conforms, exactly, to the building that's there and... MR. KELLEY-Yes, I guess, the thing I'm looking at, Gorman, is for one car garage, a 20 by 30 seems large. MR. RICH-Well, it isn't when you figure you're going to have to have a work bench in there on the end. MR. KELLEY-Well, I think the 30 part make~ ~ense. In other words, have the car and you'd have a work bench in front of it, but the width, I guess, 20 feet, you know, a car goes through.. MR. RICH-You've got to make a there. I have hardly enough room to make a turn, so I have to put a, probably a 16 foot overhead door in a one car garage to get a ¡;:wing, to get in the darn thing. I can't quite make that turn and if..park coming in with my car, I have to come in at an angle, I can't get in there..because there's another car, I can't get back out. I can jockey for 20 minutes. I ju¡;:t can't get out with a big car. The only thing I can do is go down the road and back in very carefully, but I have to get there before ¡;:omebody else does. MR. KELLEY-How do you get out of the other, the exi¡;:ting garage? MR. RICH-I haven't u~ed it yet. I haven't moved in yet. construction because I've run out of money. I'm still under MR. KELLEY-I know, but you're saying you're going to put your wife'~ car in there. MR. RICH-Well, hers will be in there and I would use the other one. MR. KELLEY-I know, but what you just said is, the reason you want this big garage is you need the width SO that you can back out. MR. RICH-Well, it's for more than that, multiple reasons. I want, in front of that garage will be a parking area for about one and a half cars. Maybe we could get four cars in there.. it would give us a little bit more ~wing when we don't have guests. I'm talking about when guests come, it'll give Us more cars parking. Now, we have a few people coming on the weekend or something, I could pull my car in the garage, she could pull hers in and we could still get four more cars, but there's no place to turn around. There's no place to park at all. The biggest problem is the parking and, of course, if I move there, how am I going to put all the things that I've collected from my life time in that little garage? MRS. GOETZ-How much of this lot is going to be permeable after all this is done? You know, because you're covering a lot of the property with things that can't absorb water. I'd like that question answered. MR. TURNER-He can have 65 percent. MRS. GOETZ-Sixty-five percent of the lot should be permeable. MR. RICH-Well, I'm only use 100 by 55 foot lot, a half acre lot there, I believe, or whatever you said, .56 acres. I'm using 600 square feet. MR. CARR-Plus your hou~e. MRS. GOETZ-Plus your hou~e, I'm talking about the whole thing. MR. RICH-The house, ye~. Now, that particular lot, let's single that lot out because that is a whole lot I'm paying taxes on, I'm not u~ing for anything but the half of the garage. MR. CARR-The lots, for are purposes, merge, once, if they become common owners. MR. RICH-For the tax map, they're ~eparate lots. 26 .- MR. CARR-Right, ye¡;¡, I mean, for tax map¡;¡, the parcel¡;¡ may be two lot¡;¡, but for the Ordinance, it'¡;¡ one lot. MRS. GOETZ-Can ¡;¡omebody an¡;¡wer the que¡;¡tion? MR. RICH-The building wa¡;¡ there. All I'm adding i¡;¡ a MRS. GOETZ-I know it was there. MR. RICH-That lot there, say that lot i¡;¡ 55 by... MRS. GOETZ-Do you agree that it's a que¡;¡tion that ¡;¡hould be answered? MR. BAKER-Definitely, it'¡;¡ a question that will have to be addres¡;¡ed, at the very least, at Site Plan Review. MR. RICH-The water doe¡;¡n't run down..it run¡;¡ right down through MRS. GOETZ-But, if you listen to yourself talk, you're saying that you have to have a certain size garage because you want a certain kind of car and I think that, from our point of view, we can't take that into con¡;¡ideration because we've got other things we've got to worry about. MR. RICH-Well, I understand that, but there's no way that I can, if I made it even ¡;¡maller, there's no way that I can meet a 20 foot setback. MR. SICARD-There's a hill there, too. MR. RICH-Ye¡;¡, there's a grade there. There'¡;¡ a retaining wall around the corner. There's no way..whatsoever. The neighbors are all..I've checked the whole neighborhood. It's exactly, if you look at the scale, the neighbors are exactly the same..it blocks no view, really.. MR. KELLEY-I just figured that the lots are 100 by 93, and I think it's actually a little bigger than that becau¡;¡e thb was 93 and I think thh was 100. So, if you just squared it off, you didn't even count what's rounded off there, that would be 9300 ¡;¡quare feet. MR. RICH-The..is roughly 40 by 40. MR. KELLEY-Well , I took 39 by 40. MR. RICH-Roughly. MR. KELLEY-And...to 60. I had the garage that you want build at 600. The exi¡;¡ting one is about 288 and that's a total of 2488. I didn't figure the decks, but 65 percent of 9300 is 6000 square feet. Hels not even a third of the way there and I think if you add the decks, you're still not MR. BAKER-You have to take the driveway into account, though? MRS. GOETZ-Yes, becau¡;¡e of the kind of driveway. That's permeable. blacktops. Say, if he MR. TURNER-It's blacktop. MRS. GOETZ-We should count the deck, shouldn't we? MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. MR. TURNER-That's an open deck. MR. RICH-That's an open deck. MRS. GOETZ-Is water going to go down through it? MR. RICH-Yes. MR. BAKER-Okay. MR. KELLEY-Alright, what's the driveway, then? MR. TURNER-Thirty by twenty-nine. 27 -- MR. KELLEY-Plus 16? MR. BAKER-Thirty by sixteen, yes. MR. KELLEY-Thirty by forty-six, that's 1380. MR. TURNER-He's still alright. MR. KELLEY-That's 3828 and he's got to get the 6,000 something and we still didn't really figure, there's still some more land that wasn't figured in there. MRS. GOETZ-The deck is just about down to the water level? MR. RICH-Yes, it's about 10 feet, 10 to 15 feet. MR. SICARD-Is that the Barber residence there, where this garage is falling down? Was that originally the Barber? MR. RICH-I really don't know, Charlie. I bought the land, right there. It was vacant. There was a lot there. I checked all through the neighborhood. Everybody on the property, every lot is about the same distance from the line, within 2 inches. Really, I've talked to everybody. They seem to me, in fact, encouraged me because we did such a good job with the rest of that and we would like to get that little shack out of there, which takes up half the space of the garage, practically. So, we're not really changing that area much. MR. SICARD-Is there a good supply of water over there in that well? MR. RICH-It comes almost to the top. The guy said it was 375 feet deep. MR. TURNER-Jeff, what would be...side for a two car garage, with a 30 foot deck, 14 feet? What would that be. MR. KELLEY-Well, if you put a 9 foot door in there, a couple of feet on each side, that would be 13, 14 feet. MR. RICH-You've got to have an entrance way. You're at a different level there. You'd have to come in at another level to see that, add another 4 feet or so for that. You really can't divide it. Even with a single door, you've got a house....you really can't. MR. TURNER-Yes, but if you kept the garage toward the well, what you're saying? MR. RICH-I can't get them closer. MR. TURNER-I know, you have to do.. entrance door over on that side. but if you kept the garage in the position you've got it, all This is isolated from the rest of it. So, you could put the here and your service door there. You could put.. garage door MR. RICH-If you add it up, you've got to have the length for the door, about 48 inches for the jam. MR. TURNER-Are you going to put a 30 foot entrance door, service door, maybe, 32? MR. RICH-Thirty-two inch door, yes, but you've got to have the jams for it. MR. CARR-Mr. Rich, the door here, on your drawings, is on the side. It's on the side of the building. It's not on the front. The door on your drawings shows on the side of the building, not on the front. MR. RICH-Yes, I put that.. step down into a hole and back up again, that's where the recess is going to be. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED NO COMMENT PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED CORRESPONDENCE Warren County Planning Board approved L.O .- STAFF INPUT Notes from Stuart G. Baker, Assistant Planner (attached) MR. RICH-(Referring to Staff Notes) May I comment on that? The well is in the way, that's why we couldn't do that. MR. BAKER-The well was hard to spot on that site plan. MRS. GOETZ-It was. MR. TURNER-Do you want to talk about it? Where he moved comfortable. .more than adequate. That's a small piece of property it'll still serve him well. It'll serve his purpose because if he with access, ingress and egress...take 6 feet off..he's already done. it. I feel and I think has trouble MR. SHEA-I'd like Mr. Rich to consider a 14 foot wide garage. I think you could, most likely, dispense with the.. MR. RICH-How about splitting the difference? How about 16? MRS. GOETZ-No. MR. RICH-No? If you build a 14 foot garage, then I'd like to move it away from the well another foot or two rather than. .line to get better access to the well, we're between the two buildings. MR. TURNER-We're trying to stay off the property line. MR. KELLEY-See, you're side line says you have to be 20 feet and you're proposing 4 feet 6 inches. That's why we're saying we'd like to see you cut back to 14 feet which would give you another 6 feet over there, sO you'd have 10 foot 6, which would be half of what the Ordinance calls for. MR. RICH-..about 19 feet of land. They're going to divide it. MR. KELLEY-Right. We're saying, if you do that, we'll probably grant you the variance, say if it's 20, and we meet half way, we're saying 10 feet 6 inches. You've got to give some, we've got to give some. MR. SICARD-Nine feet and a half, that's room enough to park a small car. MRS. GOETZ-Can you move the well? MR. RICH-That's a $7, $8,000 hole. MR. KELLEY-You still could have your parking, in terms of driving. MR. RICH-Yes, I'd have the front part. It's just that, I didn't want to be short, in the future, for storage. We had lawn chairs, furniture. I don't want to keep it outside. You've just got to have some room. MR. TURNER-But 30 feet I s a good sized building. You could put a lot of stuff in it. MR. KELLEY-You have the picture of what it looks like, right? MR. CARR-It's down here. MR. KELLEY-I think you were providing for access for the adequate.. MR. RICH-I'm going to put a pull down door, but, without that lift, I can't do anything upstairs.. I wouldn't be able to do that. That's where I want to put my lawn furni ture, cushions, so I keep the p lace sharp. When I c lean up in the fall, put it all away, so it's out of sight. MR. KELLEY-I still think you can get some storage. I wouldn't abandon that idea. MR. RICH-I could put a barn... MR. KELLEY-I still think you can get, like, a door there, so you can get your lawn chairs. 29 ~. MR. RICH-But it would look kind of tacky. I I d have to think about it. As far as the roof goes, I want it to look nice. I want it to look the best that it can. I'll sketch it out to scale, before I do that, but.. I don I t want something that detracts from the property, or the value of the property in the future and I don't want it to look kind of, I'd like to have it look the best it can possibly be. MR. TURNER-I know you do a good job. I don't have any problems with that. The only thing I have a problem with is that size a garage on that small a lot. MR. SICARD-You're not going to have any plumbing up there, are you? MR. RICH-No. would. . I could live with that, Jeff, it's no problem. It I s just that I MR. TURNER-Alright, I'll entertain a motion. MOTION TO APPROVE AREA VARIANCE NO. 38-1990 WITH MODIFICATIONS GORMAN H. RICH, Introduced by Jeffrey Kelley who moved for its adoption, seconded by Charles Sicard: With this variance, the applicant would be allowed to construct a 14 foot wide by 30 foot deep, one car garage positioned as shown on the plot plan presented. Because it will be 14 feet wide, it will be 10 feet from the northerly property line, in lieu of the 20 foot requirement. The west end of the garage will be 15 feet from the property line. The practical difficulty is dealing with a preexisting one half acre lot which happens to have waterfront on the western boundary. There are limitations as to where a garage can be placed in relation to the existing house. To the south of the proposed one car garage is a driven well. This well hinders locating the garage in other places. Also needed is the relief from the 75 foot shoreline setback. The garage will be 29 feet from the shoreline. The practical difficulty is, to be 75 feet from the Lake is impossible due to the lack of land. A setback from the principle structure is needed. The requirement is 10 feet. This garage will make it 5 feet 6 inches from the existing one car garage which is part of the existing house. No neighborhood opposition. No effect on public facilities. This appears to be the minimum relief to make the best use of the property. Duly adopted this 16th day of May, 1990, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Kelley, Mr. Shea, Mr. Sicard, Mr. Carr, Mr. Turner NOES: Mrs. Goetz, Mrs. Eggleston MR. RICH-Jeff, since this original wall is going to go by my well within, about, 6 inches, if we could make that 9 feet, give me the 6 inches, so that I can get about 6 inches over from the wall casing. If you give me about that much from the wall casing, instead of, right now, it would be about this far. I I d like to have it at least 6 inches further, if I can. MRS. GOETZ-Why didn't you have to do that in the beginning? MR. RICH-Well, I can get by with it like it is, but, to pull up the.. stuff. The thing is that we're going to be so darn close. I could live with it, but as I say, if you give me the 6 inches, that would give me just a little bit more at that wall casing. MR. KELLEY-Do you want to give him 10 feet from the property line? MR. RICH-Instead of 10, see MR. TURNER-Instead of 10 feet 6 inches, he's asking for.. You've got 4 feet 6 inches, now? MR. RICH-It just looks better. MR. KELLEY-Okay. MRS. COLLARD-Could you clarify that a little bit? MR. KELLEY-Yes. (referring to motion) Everything that I said is still okay. The last part, Susan, is going to change. It's going to say that, this single car garage will be located 10 feet from the northerly property line, in lieu of the 20 foot requirement by the Ordinance. 30 -- - MS. CORPUS-Mr. Chairman, then~'s one piece of business that was omitted. With Area Variance No. 37-1990, Craig and Barbara Meade, it's an unlisted action, so SEQRA review is required by the Board. MR. TURNER-Craig and Barbara Meade? MS. CORPUS-Yes. MR. TURNER-Short EAF? MS. CORPUS-Correct. MR. TURNER-We've got to vote on this change before we go. MRS. GOETZ-Do you want me to add to this motion? MR. TURNER-Yes. MRS. GOETZ-The motion by Kelley, seconded by Eggleston, regarding Craig and Barbara Meade, Variance 37-1990, we didn't address the Short EAF Form. I will add, that it shows no negative impact, to the motion. MS. CORPUS-Thank you. MR. TURNER-There's one point before we go. Britton Explosives is coming up this next meeting, so what I would suggest is the people not aware of the case, get a copy of the minutes of '85 and read it, because there's an interpretation and a use variance request for both, because there's some Board members that weren't on the Board when we granted it in '85. MS. CORPUS-Could we all get that. MR. BAKER-Weren't those minutes distributed in the packets? MRS. COLLARD-But some people weren't on the Board at that time. MR. TURNER-Some of them didn't get them. I don't have one, mine doesn't have one. Mike doesn't have one. Jeff, I don't think, has one. MR. BAKER-How many Board members need those '85 minutes? MR. CARR-We all do. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes, we looked at them, but we gave them back. They came out of the box. MS. CORPUS-I'd like to get them too, as soon as possible, sO I can do sOme research. On motion meeting was adjourned. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED, Theodore Turner, Chairman 31 -- -' .J V"'''''CIE_.IL.T 5T.....V. AI.aEJltT A ""AN NINO ...lOSE.""" .OOC...I:"I£II ,JOM,.,.,J L.'P'NCÞ<I oo ,4U'OI..O C. """.......50.... STE_HE"" M CL.EA"'" .....TL.IEV.J COSTCI..I..O, III _ETEIIt L.. IIIU_I:"T ....,L.,.. T Ou.........I:. w".1.!.A.'" ,. SMCIEH"'N ."VI.. M COL.!.,.!"". OAVIO.J OAI(I.EY ..\.ICE N OVOIIII'" EVA"" C. iIIEOAI,. ElL-lEE.... M I(E'-'-lEv THO"'AS D. '-"TIN 1<£""'1"'4 M. C....,!,.lEv HINMAN, STRAUB, PIGORS & MANNING, R C. ATTORNEYS AT L.A.W 71 SAY STREET GLENS FALLS, NEW YORK 12801-0018 AMI S I.ONQSTlltCET C"'_'5TO""""I:. C eOOT ot SCA"" M OOOr....."" .CTC" T QU,.....«1It WO..¡..IA"" .. GO,-DEIII"'""" eEvCIlt¡",Y co 10'1 EN IIII...UI.... I'¡TZ ."TTI5TE" IItO.I,.,. ,-VNCI"f StSE .JO,",N " '.CCOCIO TEL.,518-792-0598 FAX' 518-792-1517 ."TIIIIIICI(.J ...fOOIN' .1:.........0 T MeC........... .....W..ENCE I: CO..IETT,,J1It COuNSEl. 121 ST"TE STREET "C8"NY, NEW YORK 12201-'822 TE:C SI6-436-01SI "AX 516-436-4151 510 CClnON ""ilK CENTEII 110"0 CClnON ""ilK, NEW YOIIK 12088-38'3 TEc SI6-31'-468S -.0"".""'110 IN ....... .. PI.. ··.O,",iTTCC ,... ....y .. ""'.. May 14, 1990 ~ ;...¢ ~ /~ !~ ~ ~. ,-. ~ ~ . ,. ~, 'VI , ..." .. .Iì1 ~ ø¡.;" ~ ~I '~ §~' o~,' . ~, ~ -'" H~DELIVERED Mr. Theodore TUrner, Chairman Queensbury zoning Board of Appeals Town Office Building Queensbury, New york 12804 Re: Sign Variance Application of Capital Area Community H~alth plan, Inc. ----------------------------------------- .~ .;¡..'M " ....... Dear Mr. TUrner: Our firm has been asked by CHP to represent them at the May 16, 1990 Hearing before your Committee. It is our understanding that at the last month's hearing a quorum was not present and the matter was tabled. It was after that meeting that our firm was asked to handle the matter. I have been in conversation with Pat Collard of the Town of Queensbury concerning information about other signs in the immediate area of the CHP building. We have identified three other businesses that have signs on two sides of their building. One is the Albany Savings Bank and the other is another medical facility, Convenient Medical center. Pat indicated that these two were issued sign permits. She was, at the time of writing this letter, looking into the third, which is LUMS. It seems to me that we should all have the reasons for the ; -- HINMAN, STRAUB, PIGORS & MANNING, PC, -- DATE: May 14, 1990 issuance of the above referenced sign permits. The records of those applications were not available on this date. Based on this new information, I am respectfully requesting that this application be tabled until the June meeting. I will use that time to coordinate with Ms. Collard so as to have all available information at the hearing. Very truly yours, ~4¿ Bernard T. McCann BTMcC: nrn ---.-- PAGE: 2 . - -- TOWN OF QUEENSBURY -- Planning Department -NOTE TO FILE- Mrs. Lee A. York, Senior Planner Mr. John S. Goralski, Planner Mr. Stuart G. Baker, Assistant Planner Date: May 8, 1990 By: John S. Goralski X Area Variaace - U. Variance == Sip Variance _ lDterpntatioa Other: SubcImIiaB: _ Sketch, PreIDIi..ry, Site PlaIa Reriew - Petition for a CbaDge of Zaae - Freshwater Wet1aDd8 Permit FiDal Applicatioa Number: Area Variance No. 33-1990 Applicant'. Name: Paul Macri. Sr. Meetblg Date: Mav 16. 1990 ............................................................................................ This applicant is requesting two variances. A variance from the side yard setback, and a variance from the maximum allowable square footage for a garage. There does not appear to be any special circumstances applying to this lot which would make it unusable if the Zoning Ordinance were strictly applied. In fact, this is a large flat lot, and there are many locations on the lot that could accommodate a garage. There are also alternatives to a 1,152 sq. ft. garage. A 24 ft. by 37.5 ft. garage could accommodate 3 cars, and would meet the 900 sq. ft. requirement. JSG/sed ; ~ ~Ji - ~ ..-' TOWN OF QUEENSBURY Planning Department -NOTE TO FILE- Mrs. Lee A. York, Senior Planner Mr. John S. Goralski, Planner Mr. Stuart G. Baker, Assistant Planner Date: May 8, 1990 By: Stuart G. Baker -L Area Variance U. Variance - Sip Variance ::=: IDterpretatioa Other: SubdiYUiœ: Sketch. _ PreJimiDary, - Site PlaIa Reriew - - Petition for a CbaDge of Zoae - Freshwater WetlaDda Permit FiDal Appticatioa Number: Area Variance No. 34-1990 Apptiamt'. Name: Abraham Rudnick/Queensburv Gardens. Inc. MeetiDg Date: May 16, 1990 ............................................................................................ The applicant would like to remove the existing garage, and is requesting a variance to construct a 1,536 sq. ft. garage in its place. The definition of a "private parking garage" does not allow garages of greater than 900 sq. ft. The Zoning Administrator has determined that a Use Variance is also needed for this action. A Use Variance application will be submitted for review by the Board in June. Both Variance applications should be reviewed at the same time in order to prevent segmentation of the SEQRA process. Both Variances are unlisted actions and may be reviewed under one declaration. I therefore recommend that this application be tabled until June, when it can then be reviewed along with the needed Use Variance. SGB/sed ,-------"-- ~ . - TOWN OF QUEENSBURY pwAnnlftg Department -NOTE TO FILE- Mrs. Lee A. York, Senior Planner Mr. John S. Goralski, Planner Mr. Stuart G. Baker, Assistant Planner Date: May 16. 1990 By: John Goralski x Area VariaDce U_ VariaDce - Sip V8riaDce == Interpretation Other: Subdiñdoa: Sketch. _ PreJimiDary, Site Plan ReYiew - - Petition for a CbaDge of ZODe - Freshwater Wet1aDds Permit FiDal ApplicatioD Number: Ar~~ V~Ti~n~~ Nn ~~-IQQO Applicant'. Name: Victor King MeetiDg Date: May 16. 1990 ............................................................................................ The applicant wishes a variance from the sideyard setbacks on both sidelines. This preexisting lot is both narrow and small with respect to the requirements of the SFR-1A zone. It would be possible to place a residence on this site without coming into conflict with the Ordinance. The lot has sufficient depth to place a structure of similar square footage on the site if a different design were used. It does not appear that this proposal would be detrimental to this Ordinance nor would it be in conflict with the Comprehensive Land Use Plan. This is a residential zone and this proposal is in keeping with the character of the neighborhood. JGlpw . , . - -- TOWN OF QUEENSBURY pI.ftft~ø Department -NOTE TO FILE- Mrs. Lee A. York, SeDlor Planner Mr. John S. Goralski, Planner Mr. Stuart G. Baker, Aui.tant Planner Date: By: May 8, 1990 Stuart G. Baker -L Area V..... U. VariaDœ - Sip VariaDœ == IDterpretatiaa Other: ~ _ Sketch, _ Pr-II__-..,., Site PlaIa Reriew - Petiticm for a CbaDge of Zaae - Freshwater WetlaDda Permit FIDal AppticatioD Number: Area Variance No. 36-1990 Applicaat'. Name: Dr. Robert L. Evans MeeÛDI Date: May 16, 1990 ..................................................................................11........ The applicant is clUTently constructing a 32 ft. by 32 ft. U-shaped dock, and boathouse. (A Stop Work Order was issued for this project on March 27, 1990 by Dave Hatin, Director of Buildings and Codes.) A Variance from the required 20 ft. sideyard setback is requested. (Relief of 4 ft. 3 in.) I have reviewed the application in accordance with Article 10 of the Ordinance, and have the following comments: 1. The existing southerly leg of the L-shaped dock lies approximately 21 ft. from the sideyard property line. Although this existing setback does limit the expansion possibilities for the dock, strict application of the setback requirements would not deny the applicant of use of this dock or the property. 2. Strict application of the setback requirements have not created a practical difficulty. Partial construction of the dock and boathouse or ownership of a fragile boat should be considered self-created hardships, not practical difficulties created by the requirements of the Ordinance. 3. Setback Variances for boathouses could be detrimental to preserving the visual character of the Lake George shoreline. Practical difficulty created by the requirett1ents of the Ordinance must be established before minitt1al relief can be determined. 4. Public facilities and services should not be adversely affected. 5GB/sed l' p ~, - TOWN OF QUEENSBURY 1'1.......'..8 Department -NOTE TO FILE- -, Mrs. Lee A. York, Senior Planner Mr. John S. Goralski, Planner Mr. Stuart G. Baker, Assistant Planner Date: May 8, 1990 By: John Gora]!'Iki X Area V.-iaDce - u. VU'ÎaDce - Sip Vlll'ÏaDce == IDterpretatiaD SubdmIiœ: Sketch. _ PNlimmary, - Site PIa ReYiew - - Petition far a ChaJlge of ZaDe - Freshwater WetlaDda Permit FiDal Other: AppticatiGD Number: Area Variance No. 37-1990 Apptic:aDt'. Name: Crai2 & Barbara Meade MeetiDø Date: May 16. 1990 ............................................................................................ This applicant requires a variance because the lot does not front on a public road. This lot is unique in that it is a legally existing lot that does not front on a public road. It is my opinion that the applicant cannot enjoy reasonable use of this property because they cannot construct a single family residence on this lot. This action will not have any adverse impact on public facilities and services and would be the minumum relief necessary to alleviate the specified practical difficulty. JGlpw ;' · ~, - TOWN OF QUEEN~YARIAIICE ÑÔ. 3"7- /99(J Bay at Haviland Road, Queensbury, NY 1e_725 (518) 792-5832 MEMO Át/E©i~' . ~AY-~O o~ 'CANN'NQ . .....,.8.... N'N' ..., · "!II'!" ~ TO : patricia Collard, Zoning Administrator FROM: Karla M. Corpus, Deputy Town Attorney DATE: May 7, 1990 BE: Area Variance for C~aig and Barbara Meade Pat, upon review of the Meades' application, the Zoning Ordinance, Town Law and my conference with Paul, I am of the opinion that this matter will require an area variance in order to comply with Section 7.077 of the Ordinance and Section 280-a(1) of Town Law. Town Law Section 280 -a ( 1 ) s ta tes that a bui lding permit cannot be issued unless the plot on which the proposed structure is located fronts a street shown upon an official map. If no such map exists, the street must be an existing State, County or Town highway, or is shown upon a filed and approved subdivision map, or is shown on a map filed prior to the appointment of a Planning Board within the Town. The minimum frontage required is 15 feet. As Section 7.077(B) of our Zoning Ordinance is more restrictive, the minimum access required would be the width of a public collector street (i.e. 40 feet). It is obvious that the Meades' property does not meet this criteria, as it is located off Rockwell Road and is connected by what appears to be a narrow right-of-way. If the Meades' lot is not shown on an appropriate subdivision map, a variance appears to be in order. The same recommendation would be made regarding the matter which Mike 0' Connor has brought to your attention, if that particular property does not meet the above criteria, and his client intends to obtain a building permit. If you have any questions, please contact me. Karla KMC:cs cc: Planning Department "HOME OF NA TURAL BEAUTY. . . A GOOD PLACE TO LIVE" SETTLED 1763 'I p ~, - '- -- TOWN OF QUEENSBURY PI_nning Department -NOTE TO FILE- - . Mrs. Lee A. York, Senior Planner Mr. John S. Goralski, Planner Mr. Stuart G. Baker, Assistant Planner Date: May 8, 1990 By: Stuart G. Baker X Area VariDce - U. Variance - Sip VariDce :=:: IDtelp"etatioD Other: Subdtriaiœ: Sketch, _ Pre1imiDary, - Site PIaD Reriew - - PetitiOD far a CbaDge of Zœe - Freshwater Wet.1.aDlb Permit - FiDal AppUcatiaa Number: Area Variance No. 38-1990 AppUc:aDt'. Name: Gorman H. Rich MeetiDø Date: May 16, 1990 ............................................................................................ The applicant proposes the removal of the existing utility shed, and construction of a 600 sq. ft. one car garage on his Glen Lake property. Variances are requested from the following Ordinance requirements: 1) ZO ft. required side yard setback, Z) 75ft. shoreline setback, and 3) 10 ft. required setback from principle structure. I have reviewed the application in accordance with Article 10 of the Ordinance, and I have the following comments: 1. The property in question is only ±0.52, acres in size, and all existing structures currently lie within the 75 ft. shoreline setback requirement. Strict application of the Ordinance requirements would not deprive the applicant of reasonable use of the property, but would not allow the applicant to make any additions. Z. The Variances requested for the proposed garage are substantial. Other alternatives which would need more minimal relief from the Ordinance requirements should be looked into by the applicant. One such alternative is to renovate the existing attached one car garage into an appropriately sized two car garage. This alternate proposal would also have less of an adverse visual effect on the shoreline and the neighborhood. 5GB/sed l' ~.