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1993-04-27 o 1(1 GIN A l QUEEHSBURY ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS FIRST REGULAR MEETING APRIL 27TH. 1993 INDEX Area Variance No. 72-1992 Gerald & Wanda BUlger 1. Use Variance No. 27-1993 American Equity Corp. 4. Area Variance No. 25-1993 Mark R. McCollister 5. Use Variance No. 18-1993 Frederick Smith 5. Area Variance No. 19-1993 Jodie & Kevin Brown 28. Area Variance No. 20-1993 Marcia L. Dekalb 33. THESE ARE NOT OFFICIALLY ADOPTED MINUTES AND ARE SUBJECT TO BOARD AND STAFF REVISIONS. REVISIONS WILL APPEAR ON THE FOLLOWING MONTHS MINUTES (IF ANY) AND WILL STATE SUCH APPROVAL OF SAID MINUTES. QUEENSBURY ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS FIRST REGULAR MEE~ING APRIL 27TH. 1993 7:30 P.M. MEMBERS PRESENT THEODORE TURNER. CHAIRMAN JOYCE EGGLESTON. SECRETARY THOMAS PHILO FRED CARVIN MEMBERS ABSEN~ CHRIS THOMAS ROBERT KARPELES PLANNER-ARLYNE RUTHSCHILD STEROGRAPHER-MARIA GAGLIARDI OLD BUSINESS. AREA VARIANCE NO. 72-1992 TYPE II WR-1A CBA GERALD & WANDA BULGER OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE GLEN LAKE ROAD APPLICANT IS PROPOSING '1'0 EXPAND A PREEXISTING. NONCONFORMING SEASONAL CAMP BY THE ADDITION OF A HANDICAP RAMP ON THE WEST SIDE OF THE EXISTING DWELLING. AND IS SEEKING RELIEF OF TWERTY-ONE AND ONE TENTH (21.1) FEET FROM~HE WEST SIDE YARD SETBACK AND SEVBNTEEN ARD SEVEN TENTHS (17.7) FEET FROM THE EAST SIDE YARD SBTBACK AS PER SEC~ION 179-16C WHICH REQUIRES THE SUM OF FIFTY (50) FEET OR MORE FOR THE SIDE YARD SETBACKS. WITH A MINIMUM OF 'l'WERTY (20) FEET OR ORE SIDE. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNIRG). DATE 7/8/92 TAX MAP NUMBBR 38-4-12 NO COUNTY IMPACT LOT SIZE. 50 FT. BY 154.92 AV. FT. SECTION 179-16C TIM BULGER, REPRESENTING APPLICANT. PRESENT STAFF IRPUT Notes from Staff. Area Variance No. 72-1992. Gerald and Wanda BUlger. Meeting Date: April 27. 1993 It SUMMARY OF PROJECT I Applicant is proposing to expand a preexisting nonconforming seasonal camp by the addition of a handicap ramp to the west side of the existing dwelling. CONFORMANCE WITH USE/AREA REGULATIONS: 1. Applicant is proposing eleven and two tenths (11.2) feet for the sum of the side yard setbacks and is seeking relief of twenty- one and one tenths (21.1) feet relief for the west side yard setback and seventeen and seven tenths (17.7) feet for the east side yard setback as per Section 179-16C which requires the sum of fifty (50) feet or more for the side yard setbacks, with a minimum of twenty (20) feet on one side. REVIEW CRITERIA: 1. DESCRIBE THE PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW PLACEMENT OF A STRUCTURE WHICH MEETS THE ZONING CODE. The practical difficulty which does not allow placement of proposed structure to meet zoning regulations is that this parcel is preexisting and nonconforming in it's lot width and area. with undersized side yard setbacks; the sum of which is further intruded upon the placement of the proposed handicap ramp. 2. IS THIS THE MINIMUM VARIANCE NECESSARY TO ALLEVIATE THE SPECIFIED PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY OR IS THERE ANY OTHER OPTION AVAILABLE WHICH WOULD REQUIRE NO VARIANCE? It would appear that the relief requested is the minimum variance necessary to alleviate the practical difficulty as created by the narrowness of the parcel and the placement of the ramp which is necessary for applicant to gain access to the camp and would appear to be the only practical place for the ramp. 3. WOULD THIS VARIANCE BE DETRIMENTAL TO OTHER PROPERTIES IN THE DISTRICT OR NEIGHBORHOOD OR CONFLICT WITH ANY OBJECTIVES OR POLICIES OF THE TOWN? It would appear that the variance would not be detrimental to other properties in the district or neighborhood or conflict with any objectives or policies of the Town. 4. WHAT ARE THE EFFECTS OF - 1 - THE VARIANCE ON PUBLIC FACILITIES AND SERVICES? It would appear that the variance would not effect public facilities or services. 5. IS THIS THE MINIMUM RELIEF NECESSARY TO ALLEVIATE THE SPECIFIED PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY? It would appear that the relief requested is the minimum relief necessary to alleviate the specified practical difficulty. STAFF COMMENTS AND CONCERNS, The applicant requires a handicap ramp to gain access to his camp. The parcel is narrow, being only fifty (50) feet wide with established nonconforming side yard setbacks; the sum of which is further reduced by the addition of the ramp to the west side of the camp. Other than the west side yard setback. the addition of the ramp does not impact any other dimensional requirement of the parcel." MR. TURNER-We asked them to locate the septic, right? MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. we did. Tabled for more specific information on the septic system and to come back with some alternatives for placement of the ramp. MR. TURNER-This is a new survey. am I correct? Have you had it surveyed since? MR. BULGER-Yes. MR. TURNER-Okay. What did you do, we asked about the septic. What did you do about that? MR. BULGER-We located it for you. MR. TURNER-I see it. right there, right in the corner. It's in with that other stuff. and it's over on the other property. What did it seem to be, just an old tank? MR. BULGER-Yes. blocks. MR. TURNER-Blocks, typical summer septic tank system. MR. BULGER-The alternative plan was to move the ramp. the side of the camp, just remove, across the front and down the side. So we have an alternative placement of the ramp, and you also wanted us to locate the septic, which we did on the survey. MRS. EGGLESTON-Is that big tree coming down. that was right there, or is that still? MR. BULGER-The tree is staying. because there is. there's two and a half feet between the camp and the ramp, and a 10 inch diameter tree. Also the electrical service is on that wall. and there's an outside water faucet along that wall. So, because of the tree. the location of the service. and also the outside faucet. that's why we requested to be able to be two and a half feet away from the camp, to get down through there. MR. TURNER-Okay. Does anyone else have any questions? MR. CARVIN-You're not planning any changes to the septic at this point, is that correct? MR. BULGER-No. not at this point. MR. CARVIN-Okay. I know in some of the prior, what looks like in some of the Staff Notes back in August of ' 92, one of their concerns was that the Board may want more specific septic information to determine if the system can handle the expansion. and the applicant should be advised that this information will be required by the Planning Board, if they review the proposal. Do you have some kind of indication whether that system will be able to take the planned expansion. MR. BULGER-Well, the expansion is the ramp. - 2 - MR. CARVIN-Is the camp being used full time right now? MR. BULGER-No. MR. CARVIN-So that you're not really anticipating any extra use? MR. BULGER-No. We're not expanding the use of the camp. MR. TURNER-You're not going from seasonal to year round? MR. BULGER-No. MRS. EGGLESTON-But you did enlarge the camp, did you not? MR. BULGER-Yes. MRS. EGGLESTON-That was what Mr. Carvin was aSking. The camp is now bigger. Will there be more people there? MR. BULGER-No. The number of persons hasn't changed. MR. CARVIN-Well. as I said, the Planning Board may want to look at this. so you may want to have some specifics. MR. BULGER-Right. We had a site plan application in. and we were advised that next month. we'll be before the Planning Board for site plan review. MR. CARVIN-But you feel comfortable. at this point. that the septic system should be able to handle? MR. BULGER-Yes. because the use hasn't changed. MR. CARVIN-Okay. MR. PHILO-Do you know what kind of septic system you have in there now? MR. BULGER-Yes. It's a block. MR. PHILO-It's just a system. cess pool. yes. MR. BULGER-A cess pool. solid block. four by four square. and six feet deep. MR. CARVIN-The ramp will be just a wooden ramp, will it? MR. BULGER-Yes. pressure treated. MR. CARVIN-So. I mean if you had to get into that septic. it would probably be a fairly simple process to get the ramp apart? MR. BULGER-Yes. There would be the four inch service line that would. that comes off the camp. over to the cess pool. and if the service line became plugged, but if you needed to excavate it. you'd probably just have to pop a few boards on the ramp, because it's just the service line. The actual tank is not under the ramp. MR. TURNER-Any further questions? Okay. Let me open the public hearing. PUBLIC HEARIRG OPERED NO COMMENT PUBLIC HBARING CLOSED MR. TURNER-Any discussion? It's pretty sandy up there. and the stuff does drain away pretty good. but one day he will be putting in a new one. that's for sure. and I think he knows it. Okay. - 3 - Motion's in order. MOTION TO APPROVE AREA VARIANCE NO. 72-1992 GERALD & WARDA BULGER. Introduced by Fred Carvin who moved for its adoption, seconded by Joyce Eggleston: That we grant relief of 21.1 feet for the west side yard setback and 17.7 feet for the east side yard setback. as per Section 179- 16C. which requires the sum of 50 feet or more for the side yard setbacks, and with a minimum of 20 feet on one side. The practical difficulty that would be overcome by granting this relief is that this parcel is a preexisting and nonconforming lot width. and just by the very nature of the lot. makes it pretty much impossible to put the ramp any place else without the side yard setbacks. It would appear that this is the minimum relief requested to alleviate the practical difficulty. It does not appear that by granting this variance. that it would be detrimental to any other properties in the district or the neighborhood. or conflict with any of the objectives or policies of the Town. and it also would appear that there would be no effect on public facilities or services. This would be contingent upon the County Planning Board meeting on May 12 th . 1993 . Duly adopted this 27th day of April, 1993. by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Philo. Mr. Carvin. Mrs. Eggleston, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE ABSENT: Mr. Karpeles. Mr. Thomas NEW BUSINESS: USE VARIARCE RO. 27-1993 TYPE I LI-1A AMERICAN EQUITY CORP. AS GENERAL PARTNER FOR ACG QUEENSBURY ASSOCIATES. L.P. OWNER: EARLTOWN CORPORATION APPLICART IS PROPOSIRG TO CORSTRUCT A RETAIL DEVELOPMENT OR A VACANT PARCEL OF LAND AND IS SEEKING RELIEF FROM THE PERMITTED USES IN THE LIGHT INDUSTRIAL ZORE. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) DATE: HAY 12. 1993 TAX HAP NUMBER 110-1-2.61 LOT SIZE: 21.64+ ACRES SECTION 179-26D SEQRA TO PLARRING BOARD: APRIL 29. 1993 LEAD AGENCY MARK SCHACHNER. REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT MR. TURNER-I would like to make a motion. MOTION TO SERD THIS APPLICATIOR TO THE PLARHIRG BOARD FOR THE SEQRA REVIEW THAT'S REQUIRED. AND THEY WILL BE THE LEAD AGENCY IN THIS APPLICATION. Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved for its adoption. seconded by Fred Carvin: Both the Use Variance and the Area Variance will be sent to the Planning Board for SEQRA Review. Duly adopted this 27th day of April. 1993. by the following vote: MR. TURNER-And this will be back before us, probably. in May. MR. SCHACHNER-For your records, I'm Mark Schachner from Miller. Mannix and Pratt. I'm the attorney for American Equity Corporation. in this application. My only question is. we found out. very recently. partially through the help of the Town Planning Staff. that we will also need an Area Variance for. believe it or not. only missing the permeability requirement by 1.1 percent. and we have submitted an Area Variance application. It was submitted today. So I just wondered, if you thought it was appropriate. perhaps you might want to make a motion to refer both for SEQRA Review. MR. TURNER-Yes. that would be find. Both the Use Variance and the - 4 - Area Variance will be referred to the Town Planning Board for the SEQRA Review. AYES: Mr. Carvin, Mrs. Eggleston. Mr. Philo, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE ABSENT: Mr. Karpeles. Mr. Thomas AREA VARIARCE NO. 25-1993 TYPE I WR-1A CEA HARK MCCOLLISTER OWlIER I SAME AS ABOVE SEELYE ROAD. CLEVERDALE APPLICART IS PROPOSIRG TO CONSTRUCT A SINGLE PAMILY DWELLING ON A PREEXISTING RONCORPORMIlIG LOT AND IS SEEKIlIG THIRTY-EIGHT (0.38) HUNDREDTHS 01' AR ACRE RELIEP PROM SECTION 179-16C. WHICH REQUIRES ONE (1) ACRE POR THE MIRIMUM LOT AREA AND SEEKING RELIEF 01' SEVENTY-SIX (76) PEET PROM SECTION 179-16C. WHICH REQUIRES ONE HUNDRED AND PIFTY (150) PEET AS THE MINIMUM LOT WIDTH REQUIREMENT. (WARREN COURTY PLANNING) DATE: HAY 12. 1993 TAX HAP NUMBER 16-1-30.2 LOT SIZE: 0.62 ACRES SECTION 179-16C SSQRA TO PLANNING BOARD: APRIL 29. 1993 LEAD AGElICY MR. TURNER-And this is the same thing. identical to the last one. I would make a motion MOTION TO SERD AREA VARIARCE NO 25-1993 HARK R. MCCOLLISTER TO THE PLANNING BOARD AS LEAD AGENCY IR THE SSORA REVIEW. Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved for its adoption. seconded by Joyce Eggleston: Duly adopted this 27th day of April. 1993. by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Philo. Mr. Carvin. Mrs. Eggleston, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE ABSENT: Mr. Karpeles. Mr. Thomas USE VARIANCE NO. 18-1993 TYPE: UNLISTED MR-5 PREDERICK SMITH OWNER: SILAS GREERE RHODE ISLARD AVENUE APPLICANT IS PROPOSING TO ADD THE REPAIR 01' HIS EXCAVATION BUSINESS EQUIPMENT TO THE USE OF AN EXISTING BUSINESS STORAGE STRUCTURE. ARD IS SEEKING RELIEF FROM THE PERMITTED USES IN THE MULTIPAMILY ZONE. TAX MAP RO. 128- 2-8 LOT SIZE: 0.158 ACRES SECTION 179-18D FREDERICK SMITH, PRESENT; SILAS GREENE, PRESENT STAFP IlIPUT Notes from Staff. Use Variance No. 18-1993. Frederick Smith. Meeting Date: April 27. 1993 "SUMMARY OF PROJECT: Applicant is proposing to expand the use of a preexisting nonconforming use structure (storage of excavation equipment). to include the repair equipment and vehicles of said business. CONFORMANCE WITH USE/AREA REGULATIONS: 1. IS REASONABLE RETURN POSSIBLE IF THE LAND IS USED AS ZONED? It would appear that reasonable use of the land is not possible as zoned. as existing structure is a preexisting commercial structure. and according to the Town of Queensbury Assessor's Office. has been in existence since the 1940's. 2. ARE THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE LOT UNIQUE AND NOT DUE TO THE REASONABLENESS OF THE ORDINANCE? It would appear that the circumstances of the lot are unique to the degree that the structure and use of the land has been commercial since the 1940's. but currently not in compliance with permitted uses of the Multifamily Residential Zone. 3. IS THERE AN ADVERSE EFFECT ON THE NEIGHBORHOOD CHARACTER? Although the proposed use of this parcel does not comply with current permitted uses. there would be no adverse effect on the character of the neighborhood since the commercial use of this property has been consistent since the 1940's. STAFF COMMENTS AND CONCERNS: Although the history of the - 5 - use of the property and land has always been commercial. staff is concerned that intensification of said use not create undue noise to the surrounding neighbors. that the hours of equipment and vehicle repair be limited to weekdays permanently outside of the structure and that any waste material or trash generated in the course of the business be containerized if stored outside of the bUilding on the property." MR. TURNER-Okay. We've got a little discrepancy here. The application says it was built in 1950. and the Assessor's record says 1940. Which is it? MR. GREENE-Forty. MR. TURNER-1940? MR. GREENE-Yes. Well. '41 or '42. MR. TURNER-Okay. I just want to clear up the discrepancy here. Okay. Mr. Greene had his logging business there? MR. SMITH-Yes. MR. TURNER-All right. It's been out of there more than 18 months. How long? MR. GREENE-We still use it. MR. TURNER-Yes. but not for repair work. do you? Do you use it for repair work? MR. GREENE-On our own. MR. SMITH-On my own. as a garage, tires. MR. TURNER-Tire. something like that. MR. SMITH-My rear end. on my truck. MR. GREENE-Everything. repairs. The garage is full now. MR. TURNER-Yes, I know. There was a trailer in there when I looked at it. a camper trailer. a small one. pop up. MR. SMITH-Yes. MRS. EGGLESTON-Is it the tall building, the tall one, next to the little three garage. blue thing? MR. TURNER-Yes. MRS. EGGLESTON-Okay. On this map. it indicates the storage in the front. What does that signify? Because there was nothing in front. MR. SMITH-Storage, parking. MRS. EGGLESTON-Well, then. parking, would you say? MR. SMITH-Yes. MRS. EGGLESTON-Okay, and I didn't see this shed on the. unless it's just that little lean-to way in the back? That's all you were referring to as a shed? Okay. MR. TURNER-Okay. The land across the road that's vacant. is that yours? MR. GREENE-There's equipment on it. trailers. dump trucks. - 6 - MR. TURNER-I know. Your name's on the trailer. MR. SMITH-The trailer. the truck. yes. MR. TURNER-And the trailer. right? MR. SMITH-Right. MR. TURNER-Okay. I guess the concern I have with it is the repair work. I don't mind you using it for storage. and you can use it for storage, but that's zoned MR-S, and we've had people up here for residential uses. even your own brother, an extension of his sWimming pool. and obviously you guys are upgrading your property up there, and trying to do a good job. I don't see why you'd want to put something like this in the neighborhood. MR. SMITH-Because I want to use it. MR. TURNER-I know you want to use it. but I mean. that's not. the use variance is it's not permitted. That's why it's a use variance. That's why you're here. but what I'm saying is. you live there. I wouldn't think you'd want to work on your vehicles near your home. or next to your home, or next to somebody else's house. MR. SMITH-Well, it was either there or in the snow bank. warmer in the garage. I can work on them outside now. MR. TURNER-Where do you operate your business out of? operate your business out of your home? Do you MR. SMITH-Northern Distributing. mainly. Northern Distributing right now. I park out back of MRS. EGGLESTON-Ted. would you just clarify this for me? Greene the owner of the property? Is Mr. MR. TURNER-Mr. Greene is the owner of the property. MRS. EGGLESTON-Mr. Greene's vehicles are parked doesn't use this garage to store his facilities? come up here to the microphone. as owner of the would. outside? So why I'd like him to property. if you MR. GREENE-Silas Green. MRS. EGGLESTON-Now, if you'd just explain to me what's happening with your property and this place across the street. so I have a clear view of the whole thing. please? MR. GREENE-We've always repaired our own equipment there, and you've got to park across the street. There's no parking except that we bought about three or four lots. One goes right through to Connecticut Avenue. The lots which we don't use much. we store on. We bought that in the 50's. and we've always done it. MRS. EGGLESTON-What type business do you have. Mr. Greene? MR. GREENE-I've retired now. logging. MRS. EGGLESTON-Logging. Do you have logging trucks and all that type of thing. dump trucks? It's my son's business, basically MR. GREENE-Bull dozers. pay loaders. MRS. EGGLESTON-And they're parked across the street from this garage. So are you going to lease this to this gentleman for his business? MR. GREENE-Right. - 7 - MRS. EGGLESTON-So where will you repair your vehicles now? MR. GREENE-I'm retired. MRS. EGGLESTON-But your boys still are continuing with this business. MR. GREENE-Right now, if they break down. and we have to pull a transmission. they go down and do it. We've got all the equipment in there to do it. MRS. EGGLESTON-They go down where? MR. GREENE-Right down to the garage. Island Avenue. That's our garage. Rhode MRS. EGGLESTON-The garage this gentleman is going to use for repair vehicles? You both will use it, then, to repair vehicles? MR. GREENE-Right. Across the street. in order to get out of the garage. you've got to pull across the street. but the garage is 60 foot. MR. TURNER-The garage is right up tight to the road. the front of it. MRS. EGGLESTON-Maybe 30 foot in front of it. 33. MR. SMITH-Right around in there. MR. GREENE-We keep it neat down there. If you don't think so. just take your car and drive down some of those other streets and see how they look. MR. SMITH-A lot of that stuff is neighbor's. MRS. EGGLESTON-I really thought. like. the neighborhood was coming along there. It really is the whole section. So I'm wondering. the same as Ted, you know, once you get a garage, you start doing that type of work. it just seems to go down hill. MR. SMITH-I live about three streets over. and I've got about 10 brothers and two sisters. and we all live on those streets. MR. PHILO-How long have you repaired stuff in that garage? How long have you run the garage. sir? MR. GREENE-About 1955. '54. '53. I'd have to check back. We bought it from Jess Berger. It was a bus barn. He ran his buses out of there. We bought it, and we've always used it. ever since. MRS. EGGLESTON-The Staff's concerns were hours. and things. of operation. and we've seen so many of these, like the Sunday repairs and the banging and clanging and Saturdays and evenings and midnight, but what are your plans for a? MR. SMITH-Well. usually. if something breaks. I have it the next day. but I work until later than normal on it, to get it going for the next day. Other than that. MR. TURNER-Are you employed at Northern Distributing? MR. SMITH-No, I'm not. I left there eight years ago. MR. TURNER-My concern is the fact you're going to do repair work in it. because the gentleman behind you wanted the big storage shed. all right. Mr. Mabb. and that got denied. and my concern is introducing this type of business in a neighborhood where it doesn't belong. - 8 - MR. GREENE-Yes. but what about us? We bought that building and paid for it. and we still. down there. We just pulled a transmission the other day. and put it back in. We backed our trucks right in there. We always have. and now we turn around. and we've spent a lot of money on it. MR. TURNER-Yes. but you're going to rent it to him. MR. GREENE-I'm going to rent it to him, but we're going to keep one stall. We'll be using two. If one of those trucks breaks down. it goes in there to be fixed. in fact. it was in there last week, the transmission. MRS. EGGLESTON-Could I ask. have there been any complaints from any areas about this gentleman alone uSing the garage. the owner? MRS. RUTHSCHILD-We haven't had any responses from neighbors. MRS. EGGLESTON-No, but see now you're gOing to be doubling the use of the bUilding by renting it to this gentleman. MR. GREENE-I won't be really doubling it. MR. SMITH-We've used one stall for years. MR. GREENE-He had. you must know. 18 tractor trailers there. and you don't put them all in that one garage. MR. TURNER-Just let me say this. if I lived up there. I wouldn't want it next to my house. MR. GREENE-Well. we bought it before people moved in. MR. TURNER-That's why you move into residential areas, because you want to get away from that stuff, and that's why it's zoned residential. to get that stuff away from there. MR. GREENE-I've been up here before for. a few years ago we got a permit. and we built on. We made it 60 foot long. I believe it is. 63. 65. Anyway. that's what we got it for. and we put the money in there. and we're still using it. MR. PHILO-Joyce. when I talked to the neighbors. I didn't see any objections. That bus barn was there in the late 40's. MR. GREENE-The garage, '41 or '42. Jess Berger built it. and ran a bus business. MR. PHILO-They were in there before those other houses got in there. MR. GREENE-Absolutely. MR. TURNER-There was no zoning then, either. anything then. They could do MR. GREENE-Well. we went ahead and we stuck a lot of money in that darn thing. and we put a new roof on it. When Jess had it. it was kind of a flat roof. Your father would have known him. He welded there. MR. TURNER-I know who he is. MR. GREENE-You just can't take a building like that and say. well. here. we want to pick it up and move it somewhere else. MRS. EGGLESTON-Have you brought any financial records with you. to show that you can't make a reasonable return on the property if it's used as zoned? Is that your contention. that you're losing money on the garage? - 9 - -- MR. GREENE-Absolutely. I don't see, when they zone it for the people that are living there, and we had it way before they were there. MR. TURNER-Well, the whole area is going MR-S. all of it. where he lives, and where his brothers live. MR. GREENE-What about the junk yard there. just a little ways from me? What about the body shop down the road, still on Rhode Island Avenue? I mean. we've always used it. MRS. EGGLESTON-So, why are you here? If you've always done this, then why are you here? MR. SMITH-Because I have to use it. MRS. EGGLESTON-But you tell me you've been using it. MR. SMITH-Right. MRS. EGGLESTON-You have your bay and his bay? MR. SMITH-Right. I've been storing stuff there. MRS. EGGLESTON-So why are you here? MR. PHILO-If he never said anything. he wouldn't be here. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes, why are you here? MR. SMITH-Because they said in order for me to work in the garage. I'd have to get a variance to do it. MRS. EGGLESTON-You mean somebody turned you in, a neighbor? MR. SMITH-Mr. Hatin. MRS. EGGLESTON-Mr. Hatin came and he said you were illegal? MR. SMITH-Right. He saw me out there. MRS. EGGLESTON-Okay. MR. GREENE-He's wrong. He said we couldn't park across the road with our equipment. That's what we bought it for. MR. SMITH-And then he came down and looked, and said. okay. just go for the variance and you're all set. So, that's why I'm here. MR. PHILO-That's been a barn since 1940. MR. GREENE-I told him we don't need a variance. because when my truck breaks down. we pull it in there. If two trucks come in. or three trucks. you don't put three of them in those two stalls. One of them goes across the road. MR. PHILO-How does that work. Ted, technically? MR. GREENE-What we'd like to do. eventually. we'd like to sell it and get rid of it. MR. PHILO-It was a preexisting lot. MR. TURNER-When he abandons the use of it. He hasn't abandon the use of it. he says. all right. Are you giving him the option to buy this piece of property? MR. GREENE-Absolutely. eventually. but he said. I'm not going to buy something. and have them kick him out. but I don't see how they can kick him out. It's been there since back in the 40' s. and - 10 - we've worked it since in the 50's. MRS. EGGLESTON-You've always lived there across the street? MR. GREENE-I live on the Meadowbrook Road. MRS. EGGLESTON-You live out on Meadowbrook Road. We've got another little fly in the ointment here. I'm trying to keep up. Okay. So. what is the property across the road where you park everything? It's just a vacant lot? MR. SMITH-Right. He owns the house next door to the lot. MR. TURNER-Do you own Palmer's house, Si? MR. GREENE-No, across from Palmer's. MRS. EGGLESTON-Is that a mobile home? No, it was a regular house, was it? I was there. I just can't picture what was on that corner. right at the moment. Well. I can see maybe then why a garage doesn't make you nervous. because you're not going to live there. You haven't got to listen to it. MR. GREENE-That's what we bought it for. that's what we bought the garage for. MR. TURNER-You bought it to use for yourself? MR. GREENE-That's right. MR. TURNER-Now. you're saying. Fred. I'm going to rent it to you. I'm going to give you the option to buy it. and you're telling us, Fred. and Fred's telling us we want to do repair work in there. MR. GREENE-He wants to do the same as I do. work on his own equipment. MR. TURNER-I know. but if we grant him the variance, the variance goes with the land. MR. GREENE-They tell you you're grand fathered in and all this and that. that you got a piece of property that's worth. MR. TURNER-You're grandfathered. but he's not. MR. SMITH-Right. MR. GREENE-I think they've got to go a little further and dig into the grandfathering. because we've got some other property. and when you sell it. you know. if he bought that piece of property. and he says. I'm not going to buy it from you. because if I buy it. you're going to throw it out. MR. TURNER-Yes. but his name is not Greene. So, he's not grandfathered. His name is Smith. MR. GREENE-What am I going to do? Tear that building down then. when I'm not here? Are they going to tear the building down then? MR. TURNER-They might. MRS. EGGLESTON-Mr. Smith. how many pieces of equipment do you have? What do you do? MR. TURNER-Excavation. MR. SMITH-A dump truck. a pay loader. and a back hoe. MRS. EGGLESTON-Three pieces of equipment? - 11 - MR. SMITH-I have about six out there now. MRS. EGGLESTON-What else is there? MR. SMITH-Just trailers. MRS. EGGLESTON-Trailers. MR. TURNER-Heavy excavation trailers. equipment trailers. MR. CARVIN-Are you an independent contractor. or how would you classify yourself? MR. SMITH-Independent contractor. MR. CARVIN-Okay. and you have about six pieces of equipment? MR. SMITH-Yes. MR. CARVIN-And most of it's being stored behind Northern Distributing? MR. SMITH-All of it, yes. MRS. EGGLESTON-So. if you were given this, would you bring all of that equipment to this site? MR. SMITH-Yes. MR. CARVIN-Let me ask you this. Where would you conduct your business now? In other words, if somebody was looking to have a job done. where would they call, or where would they come visit you? MR. SMITH-They would call my house. MR. CARVIN-At your house. which is? MR. SMITH-Vermont Avenue. MR. CARVIN-Vermont Avenue, two streets over. Okay. So, in other words, you don't have an office an Northern Distributing? MR. SMITH-No. MR. CARVIN-Do you have employees? MR. SMITH-No. MRS. EGGLESTON-So. it's not a great big operation. Just a one man show here? MR. SMITH-Right. enough to make a living. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Now, Mr. Greene. I assume that this was the same type of business that you were in? MR. GREENE-About 20 times bigger. We had 18 skidders. We had a dozen loaders. We had 12 tractor trailers. bull dozers. back hoes. MRS. EGGLESTON-Would you do logging as well? MR. SMITH-No. MRS. EGGLESTON-No. You'd just do the excavation? MR. SMITH-Right. MRS. EGGLESTON-But you did logging and the excavating? - 12 - MR. PHILO-You could put all your equipment right inside. couldn't you? MR. SMITH-Well, the trailer wouldn't fit in there. MR. GREENE-That's what, we always kept everything looking nice down there. no tires. flat tires. MR. PHILO-I remember it. Mr. Greene. MRS. EGGLESTON-Are you going to have any control over how he keeps it? MR. GREENE-He doesn't want to buy something, and I don't blame him, that they're going to say they're going to tear down tomorrow. MRS. EGGLESTON-But if you just rented it to him. MR. GREENE-I don't want somebody up by my house with any junk, and I'm not going to have junk at somebody else's house. MR. CARVIN-Is there a lift in that garage? There's no grift, or how about a pit? MR. GREENE-No. MR. SMITH-No. MR. CARVIN-Okay. So any, if you had to work on your equipment. you would be using, what. jacks. and things like that? MR. SMITH-Jacks. MR. PHILO-With equipment like that. you'd have to anyway. MR. CARVIN-Okay. I'm not familiar with it. That's why I'm asking the question. I peeked through the windows. but the only thing I saw. basically, I believe, was a rather large camper. It looks like a motor home? MR. SMITH-Yes. That's his. MR. CARVIN-Yes. and it seems to me there was another piece of equipment in there. on the one side. and there was. I believe. the trailer part of a tractor trailer. it sits on the side. That's yours. is that correct? MR. GREENE-That's my son's. MR. CARVIN-That's your son's. MRS. EGGLESTON-So what will happen to the camper and the boat. and whatever might be inside? MR. GREENE-The camper will be. see, we go to Florida. and it won't be. as far as the boat. MR. CARVIN-Hr. Smith. you own all your equipment, right? MR. SMITH-Yes. MR. CARVIN-In other words. do you work on other people's equipment? In other words, lets say that there was another independent contractor that said. HR. SMITH-I only want to work on my own. to be honest with you. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Well. I tend to agree with Ted. I'm not really in favor of putting commercial ventures into residential areas. I think it's fair to say. I mean. if we go by a strict interpretation - 13 - of what the Town guidelines or Town Codes say. you would be permitted a private garage. Now. by any stretch of the imagination. that could be considered. I suppose. a private garage. So. obviously. Mr. Greene. here has been working on his own equipment. So if he has a truck or something like that. no different than if I wanted to work in my garage. on my car. I think where the whole thing breaks down is where Mr. Greene wants to lease or rent that option to Mr. Smith. all right. Now. in other words. that makes it a commercial venture. as far as I'm concerned. for Mr. Greene. Now. if Mr. Smith were to buy that property. I don't think I'd have a problem with Mr. Smith moving his equipment in there. and working on it on a private basis. MR. PHILO-Are you going to lease it, or are you going to sell it to him? MR. GREENE-We want to sell it. and then our equipment. I won't say. if Jeff had a rear end go out on a truck. he's not going to bring it down there. and. there aren't many stalls around that you can get into. MR. CARVIN-Well. again. if. and I'm using a common sense approach here. I mean. it's just a little bit larger. I'm not really crazy about having large garages in residential areas. because eventually they turn into commercial ventures. Things change. MR. TURNER-It is a commercial venture. MR. CARVIN-Well. MR. PHILO-Not really. MR. TURNER-He's a contractor like anybody else is a contractor. So. then he becomes a commercial venture. MR. CARVIN-At least they haven't indicated to me that they're actually doing business out of there. In other words. if somebody shows up. MR. TURNER-Yes. but that's. you're going to put a telephone in there. aren't you? MR. SMITH-No. I've never had a phone. and I never will. MR. GREENE-We had a telephone in there, but we worked out of our house. too. We had a radio. In fact. there's a tower on the roof. MR. TURNER-Yes. there is. MR. GREENE-We had our own private ban. Massachusetts. Albany. with a unique. MR. CARVIN-Again. my feeling is. it turns into a commercial venture. if Mr. Greene or Mr. Smith start working on other people's equipment for money. I mean. that. to me. is a commercial venture. MR. TURNER-No. He has a commercial business. He's an excavating contractor. He is in business. okay. MR. CARVIN-Okay. but there's no signs. as far as I know. for Mr. Greene's business. in other words. on that garage. saying. MR. TURNER-On his trucks. okay. they're on his trucks. represents. MR. CARVIN-Well. we're not granting a variance for the trucks. Ted. So that MR. TURNER-No. no. but I mean. the trucks that are sitting there represent that that is his place of business. - 14 - HR. PHILO-Can I say one thing on that. we can get into all kinds of technicalities. MR. TURNER-This isn't technical. HR. PHILO-No. What I'd like to know. from this lady over here. if you could give me some information, is that grandfathered. that bqilding I know, I tow trucks in there for Paul Sperry. HR. GREENE-Sure. MR. PHILO-And that was there in the 40's. HR. TURNER-All right, listen. He's grandfathered. Hr. Greene's grandfathered. Hr Smith is not. because Hr. Smith wants to take it over. MR. PHILO-I'm asking. the guy's gOing to lose money if he has a business started. and then all of a sudden he has a net worth. and then the property. he can't use it what it's for. if it's a grocery store. or this. and it's been one for 50 years. it isn't worth anything. What is the grandfather. with that business. does it follow over from one owner to the other. or what? HRS. RUTHSCHILD-No. It's with the owner. MR. GREENE-Okay. If he buys this building. MR. TURNER-Then he has to come and get a variance. MR. GREENE-Well, if you can't get a variance. you've got to tear it down. then. We bought a lot of property. It was grandfathered in. MR. TURNER-Si. can I ask you a question? If he uses this garage. all right. if the variance goes through. across the road is your parking lot. right? HR. GREENE-Absolutely. MR. TURNER-That's your piece of property. He's going to put his equipment over there when he isn't working on it. Is that correct? MR. GREENE-No. I'm not going to say he's going to have it when he's not working on it. but if he's in the stall and has something torn down. and a truck comes in. it's got to park over there until he can get that in. We put everything we could in the garage. MR. TURNER-What I'm saying to you is. as a contractor. he's going to utilize this building for repair work. and maybe store some equipment in it when he's not repairing it. Then. if he has any excess equipment. the big equipment trailer. and some big dump trucks. and some other excavation equipment. that's going to go across the road in the other lot. is it not? HR. GREENE-Absolutely. but he's not doing work like you just said. and if you check back further. when we bought that piece of property. we was to work it just on our own property. and anywhere along the line. you'll never see where we took in any work. the same as he. You can't get any work. You've got to have so many windows in your garage and all that. We closed all the windows up. because kids used to break in and get in there. but. no. it's not that. HR. PHILO-That garage. what I'm saying is. that's why I asked the question. From the 40's, when I was a kid. I used to tow it over with Paul's barcoy. HR. TURNER-If Hr. Greene built that in 1955. or acquired it in 1955. - lS - MR. PHILO-It was built in 1940. I know when it was built. MR. TURNER-Wait a minute, but if he acquired it in 1955. all right, there was no zoning. I'm just saying. if he acquired it in 1955, there was no zoning in 1955. He could do anything any place. then. all right. In 1967, they instituted zoning. In 1967. that garage became grandfathered. and it's been grandfathered ever since, until now. when Mr. Smith wants to go in there. That's where it ends. right there. MR. GREENE-I'm going to disagree with you. but you'd have to go into it further, because if you buy the piece of property. it's worth a million dollars. and add on five or six big stores. or boathouses. and the owner dies. and it's grandfathered in, that's all got to be. it's no good anymore. MR. TURNER-No, Si. what I'm saying is, what wants to go in there now is not a permitted use in that zone, and that's why you're grandfathered. because you've been there, but he's not. because he's going to buy the building from you. or rent it from you. MR. GREENE-All right, come back down to this. If I said, listen. I can tell you. you can go in there. and he says. well. I won't buy it from you, there's nothing they can do. That's my business. as long as. you can't start charging working people on equipment. just your own. if you have a tire go bad. you had a break. you don't know what's going to happen. come in there and fix it. Same as. just the other day, we pulled in there. and nobody bothered us. and put a rear end on the truck. MR. TURNER-No, because you own it. You've been there. MR. CARVIN-This truck is your truck, right? MR. GREENE-Right. It's our truck, well, my son's. MR. SMITH-So if my truck broke down today, he can't let me borrow his garage to work on my truck? He's not going to charge me anything. but I can't even work on it in his garage? MR. GREENE-If that was my equipment, you'd pull it right in there. MR. TURNER-Yes, but you're not asking that tonight. You're asking us to go in there and rent that piece of property. eventually with the option to buy. So that's where the line is caught. MR. CARVIN-That's where I have a hard problem. I mean. because it becomes a commercial venture when you rent the space to Mr. Smith. MR. GREENE-Maybe if he buys it. but he says I can't buy it. if you make me tear it down. MR. TURNER-Si, he could say. here's the way you'd have to do it. is if you wanted to buy it from him. you'd have to come here and get a variance with the option to buy it from him. if the variance got approved. Then you could buy it. If the variance didn't get approved, then you wouldn't have to buy it. MR. SMITH-That's what I'm here for. GENTLEMAN IN AUDIENCE-What good is the garage, though. like, if my father dies, what good is the garage? MRS. EGGLESTON-Well, there's other things you can use it for. There's other things it can be used for. MR. TURNER-That's the idea of zoning. Zoning is to take the commercial and industrial stuff, and put it where it belongs, put the residences where they belong. and the other uses where they belong. - 16 - MR. GREENE-You can't move that garage to where it belongs. MR. TURNER-I'm not saYing they have to move it, Si. MR. GREENE-And like you said to me. somebody said, where do you live? I live on the Meadowbrook Road. I heard you say. you don't want to live on the site of your garage. No. I don't want to live on the site of my garage. I bought something different. I wouldn't want to live on the site of my garage. MR. TURNER-That's right. That's why ~ live there. because I don't want it next to my house. MR. GREENE-But. I'm going to keep that just as nice down there. because I respect my neighbors. MRS. EGGLESTON-I don't think it's the noise, how it looks. the noise. It's MR. GREENE-Well. we've never had any complaints. MRS. EGGLESTON-But as this gentleman said. though. he might work a Saturday or a Sunday or evenings. whenever things break down. That's difficult. MR. SMITH-Well, if I can't, I can't. MR. GREENE-We have worked Saturdays and Sundays, evenings, midnight. MR. PHILO-The only thing I don't see about it, there wasn't a house around there. when Si bought that. and it was a bus barn. MR. TURNER-There was houses there, Tom. MR. PHILO-Not when that went up. MR. TURNER-Yes there was. MR. PHILO-When I was a kid. when I went over there. MR. TURNER-Tommy, I was a kid long before you were a kid. and there was houses there. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. there's been houses there. GENTLEMAN IN AUDIENCE-I was building a house. when that. about 30 feet from that garaqe, and it never made any noise. It never bothered us, and he said, he doesn't want to live next to a garage. I don't mind living next to that garage. MR. TURNER-No. I said, I don't want to live next to a business. That's what I said. GENTLEMAN IN AUDIENCE-They said it was a storage barn, but Jess Berger always fixed his buses there. Si always fixed his trucks in there. and he never charged. He never took in any outside work. and they said, well. it's grandfathered in. So what happened to Jess Berger when he bought it? MR. TURNER-There was no zoning. You could do anything then. GENTLEMAN IN AUDIENCE-No. It was a different situation. MR. PHILO-It's a screwed up mess. MRS. EGGLESTON-But he could put an option on it to buy. and he could come to us, and if we gave him the permit. it would be with the agreement that he purchase the property. What's wrong with that? - 17 - MR. GREENE-That's good. MR. PHILO-What did you say. Joyce? MRS. EGGLESTON-I said. this guy. he takes an option to buy the property. I mean. you've got to go through the motions. You can't just sit here and say, I'm going to do it. but then you come back here and say. I want to buy this property. and the closing's going to be such and such. but before I do that. I want to know if I can have this enterprise in here. So if we gave it to him. it would hinge on him buying that property. Then he's home free. What is the. he says he's going to buy it anyway. MR. GREENE-He's got to have a place for his equipment. MRS. EGGLESTON-See. I really don't have a problem with you using the garage. MR. PHILO-It's a preexisting building. MRS. EGGLESTON-I agree with that. but it's the idea that. and you've got to admit it happens. you might come to us and say. well. I'm only going to do my own work. and the next thing you know. you've got a full fledged garage. repairing somebody else's property. and those things just happen. if you give the consent to do that. So. I would say to you is. get an option to buy it. buy it in writing. come back here. and we could do it. contingent upon you buying the property. Would that work? MR. SMITH-He already knows I'm going to buy it. I've got an option on it. We already talked about that. I said. I don't want to spend a lot of money. if I can't do it. MR. TURNER-When you do that. you grant the variance. the variance goes with the land. He could turn around and sell it and the same thing happens allover again. Once you grant a variance. the variance goes with the land. all right. So then that means that that garage will always be commercial. MR. PHILO-For this person only. MR. TURNER-No. no. That garage will always be commercial. MR. CARVIN-I guess that's where I'm having a hard time defining commercial. He's only storing his equipment and working on his equipment. It's no different than if you worked on your car. Lets say. I have a car that I store over in South Glens Falls. MR. TURNER-There's a big difference. You work on your car in your garage. all right. He's got six pieces of equipment. He can't get six pieces of equipment in that garage. because it's gOing to go across the road. It's going to be stored across the road. He's going to take and shuttle them back and forth if he's got to work on them. MR. PHILO-What the hell difference does that make? MR. TURNER-The point 1s. that you've got two lots in. You've got a lot across the road he's using commercial. You've got a lot on this side of the road he's using commercial. MRS. EGGLESTON-But I think your point is there's not g01ng to be any bus1ness conducted out of that premise. He doesn't have an office there. Customers aren't going to come there. MR. CARVIN-But that's. essentially. what's going with the land now. MR. TURNER-No. They're just requesting to use this commercial. MR. CARVIN-Well. no. what I'm saying is that that's what Mr. Greene - 18 - is currently dOing at that site, is he's just working on. as far as I can tell. MR. PHILO-He's just parking the equipment there now. MR. TURNER-I know. MR. CARVIN-He's only working on his equipment. that that goes back a number of years. In other words. MR. TURNER-What I'm saying is once you grant the variance. you say. that's commercial. MR. CARVIN-I think the first time you slap up a sign. you know. "Smith's Contracting". then it becomes a commercial venture. MR. GREENE-See. that garage. you can not work in that garage. or, you've got to have a bathroom. You've got to have water. You've got to have windows. MR. TURNER-You can't use it for a business until you install a toilet. MR. GREENE-That's right. MR. CARVIN-If Mr. Smith is all of a sudden working on Charlie's Jones machines for pay. then it's a commercial venture. MR. GREENE-You can't do that. MR. CARVIN-At least that's my feeling. from what I'm hearing. that this garage has been there. I'm not crazy about it. Ted. I'm telling you that right now. MRS. EGGLESTON-Another thing makes me nervous is. like. two or three people using it for their repair shop. I mean. you. you and your son. You're gOing to store your camper and things there? MR. GREENE-No. That camper goes to Florida. MRS. EGGLESTON-But that's only. like. five months of the year, four months of the year. MR. CARVIN-If you sold it to him. and you stored your trailer there. MR. GREENE-It won't be there. MR. CARVIN-But what I'm saying is that. then it becomes a commercial venture. So the only person that can use that would be Mr. Smith and his equipment. I mean. that's the way I would interpret it. and anything other than that would be. MRS. EGGLESTON-It would be not your son's equipment to be brought in there. It would be your equipment. MR. GREENE-Right. and we could park across the road without him coming down. MR. CARVIN-I'm not concerned about across the road. I'm just concerned about the garage and. if you put six pieces of equipment in there. fine and dandy. and if that's where you work on it. I mean. MR. GREENE-See. in order to come out of the garage. you've got to go across the road to get back across the road. to get in and out of there. MRS. EGGLESTON-Well. what happens to his enterprise if you sell the property across the road? What if you sell your property to - 19 - somebody else across the road? MR. PHILO-Does that property across the road go with the garage? MR. GREENE-It goes with the garage. MRS. EGGLESTON-You mean. if you sold him the garage. you would sell him? MR. TURNER-It's not on the map. MR. PHILO-Well. why don't we table this thing. if it's all right with you? MR. TURNER-All that's on here is for the garage. and nothing to do with this other piece of property. MR. SMITH-Okay. That's what I was supposed to be here for first of all. Mr. Hatin found me. MR. TURNER-That's when you got in trouble. MR. SMITH-Right. I wanted to use. garage. He said. go for a variance to use the garage. because I wanted to buy it. I already talked to him. and he said. well. do that. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Well. my guess is Mr. Hatin detected a commercial venture there. because of what. MRS. EGGLESTON-Let me ask you this. do you tie the road up with your vehicles backing back and forth across this road to the other side? MR. SMITH-You can back right in. That's the same way as a guy. his driveway. backs out into the road. MRS. EGGLESTON-You can back out. but you said he backs out. straight across to the other side. MR. TURNER-Okay. Any further questions of the applicant? I'll open up the public hearing. PUBLIC HBARIBG OPBRBD SCOTT ROLAND MR. ROLAND-My name is Scott Roland. I live on Minnesota Avenue. MRS. EGGLESTON-Minnesota. you're on? MR. ROLAND-Yes. MRS. EGGLESTON-That's qUite a few above. isn't it? MR. ROLAND-Yes. It's the first road as you're coming towards the City. MRS. EGGLESTON-Okay. MR. ROLAND-I am for Freddie's request. MR. TURNER-Do you work for him? MR. ROLAND-No. I work for Northern. MR. TURNER-But do you work for him on weekends? MR. ROLAND-No. MR. TURNER-What is your interest. then. being that far away? - 20 - MR. ROLAND-He's a good friend of mine. MR. CARVIN-Do you have any equipment that Mr. Smith has ever worked on? MR. ROLAND-No. I have a car. He does a lot of work for Northern. He needs a place to store his equipment. That's basically what he's looking for. a place to store his equipment. and occasionally work on it in the garage. MR. CARVIN-Are you MR. ROLAND-Yes. MR. CARVIN-How big MR. ROLAND-Yes. familiar with his operation at Northern? would you say. are you familiar with the garage? MR. CARVIN-Okay. Are they about equal size. for the area that he's working in? Is this an expansion. or is this. I don't know what operation he's got at Northern? MR. ROLAND-He's working out doors right now. In a snow bank. and he wants to get inside where it's warm. MR. TURNER-He's keeping his equipment over there. MR. ROLAND-The only thing he does at Northern is stores equipment outside. MRS. EGGLESTON-Other than that. he has no connection with Northern Distributing? He doesn't repair any of their vehicles. none of that type of thing? MR. ROLAND-No. MRS. EGGLESTON-They just let him park his vehicles. as a favor. over in the back? MR. ROLAND-Right. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Again. having very little knowledge of "equipment". and I'm assuming this is bull dozers and backhoes. and things like that. what is the average maintenance time on a piece of equipment? MR. ROLAND-It depends on what you're doing. MR. CARVIN-About how long does Mr. Smith tend to spend on the equipment? MR. TURNER-If he's got to pull a tire or something. or he's got a cylinder gone on the backhoe. or a cylinder on the bull dozer. MR. ROLAND-It's a half hour job. If a motor goes. maybe. MR. TURNER-But if he's got a track gone on the dozer. then it's a major operation. MR. ROLAND-Right. Well. that's not real major. A tract's not that bad. MR. TURNER-No. if you don't do it yourself. You take the tract off. you take it down and have it punched out and redone and then put it back on. it's not there. That's right. JAIME BELL MR. BELL-I live on Connecticut Avenue. and basically I'm looking right at the garage. I can see the garage. but I have no problem - 21 - at all with it. I mean, I've got a garage down the road from me, a few places down. They're working out of there all the time. MR. PHILO-That's in a residential area. MR. TURNER-That's grandfathered. That's why that's there. That's been grandfathered. MR. BELL-Earl Maille's garage? MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. BELL-Well, that's a business. All Fred's going to be dOing is working on six pieces of equipment. maybe once a week. tops. and storing stuff. That's it. MR. CARVIN-Mr. Bell. do you own any equipment? Has Mr. Smith ever? MR. BELL-No. I just have a car. I'm friends with Fred. I know his brothers. MR. TURNER-Okay. MR. CARVIN-So, you're just here as moral support. I guess? MR. ROLAND-Yes. I've lived there 28 years. I mean. Fred knows everybody in the neighborhood. I mean. he won't be degrading the neighborhood at all. If you look at his yard on Vermont Avenue. it's one of the nicest yards on, and all of his equipment's cleaned up and looks good. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Well. Joyce kind of alluded to an interesting problem before. Right now I guess there's only a couple of pieces of equipment that remain in there in storage. If the garage became more active. there obviously would be a lot of traffic in and out. What do you think the impact would be on the traffic flow in that area? MR. BELL-There's days, car an hour coming by. at say 4.30. Then you little side roads. I live on the next street. There's like one Only when people are coming home from work might see three cars an hour. They're just MR. CARVIN-Are these heavy equipment? In other words. again. maybe I should be directing it to Mr. Smith. If you have to haul a backhoe some place. I assume you have a trailer? What time do you normally get going in the morning. I mean. do you think there would be any impact on the neighborhood because of the hour? MR. SMITH-Eight thirty, nine o'clock. MR. PHILO-In the winter. shut right down. covered up. It's closed up and MR. GREENE-We had a variance across the road there. You must have it in your files. We was going to build a big garage across the road. that whole parking lot. You can check into it. MRS. EGGLESTON-How many years ago? MR. SMITH-1978. MR. TURNER-They don't keep it that long. MR. SMITH-They showed it to me about two weeks ago. MR. TURNER-Did they? MR. SMITH-Yes. He didn't think they had a variance at all for it. That's why we came up, looked at the record. and there it was. - 22 - MR. TURNER-Thank you. Anyone else in support? L. BALDEGLE MR. BALDEGLE-I'm L. Baldegle. general contractor from Queensbury. I'm just here. no point of interest. I don't even know these gentlemen. I know the basic area they're living in. but just listening to what's going on. my one personal information. I guess. is it or is it not grandfathered in? If it's grandfathered in. which more than likely it is. it's grandfathered in according to the New York State laws of Real Estate. Am I right by assuming that that grandfather clause stays with the property? If it does stay with the property. there is no question here. and further more. talking about Maille's garage. I happen to know where that is too. Fine. He's doing mechanical work. It's not like they're aSking to go in the middle of Tyneswood and open a repair shop. The other point is. Maille's garage has been run under a different D/B/A. and he's returned back to it. So therefore. there's a hardship to these people. that has not been to other businesses of the same basic nature. That's just my opinion. I just thought I'd throw that out to you. I don't even know these people. MR. TURNER-Thank you. MRS. EGGLESTON-There's no Correspondence. MR. TURNER-If you want to give it to them for a year or two. and let them come back. MR. CARVIN-I just think we're kind of ducking the issue here. MR. TURNER-We are ducking the issue. MR. CARVIN-I would like to table it and maybe have them come back with the bill of sale. That way we could structure it. MR. PHILO-I remember when they had over 100 pieces of equipment there. MRS. EGGLESTON-But. Tom. you've got to remember. the Town is trying to do something with that area. It's not to stay that way forever and ever. You've got nice neighborhoods where you live. and in different sections. and the people have worked hard to bring that neighborhood around. I was looking through there today. and they're really doing a great job. MR. TURNER-The point that bothers me is that people came from that district and said. look it. don't give these people a variance on this house for duplex. because they don't have the square footage. right? MR. CARVIN-That's right. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. MR. TURNER-And Mr. Smith's brother was one of them. all right. MR. PHILO-He had a chance to solve the problem. we worked it with hill. and Bob next door would have given him the lot. So he wouldn't work with us at all. and scratch. tell him go. He didn't meet the requirement. In fact. he did all the repair work without even asking us. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. PHILO-So. I agree with you. knooked down. That thing should have been MR. TURNER-But like I said. the people up there have been trying to update their property. and they have updated their property. Even - 23 - his brother. and all the rest of them. They've cleaned it all up, and it looks nice up there. MRS. EGGLESTON-But you don't want to go two steps forward and one step back. MR. TURNER-Right. MR. PHILO-Can you keep it to the same size, like say he's got six pieces of equipment. keep it to the same size it is? The man's going to take his trailer out of there. He's going to take the recreation vehicle out. That would be two pieces inside anyway. Then you'd only have, what. three pieces outside? MR. TURNER-There's three out there now. MR. CARVIN-Yes. I was going to say. There's a car and a trailer outside. I mean. I don't know. I think there's an Ordinance that you can't have that stuff just laying around. MRS. EGGLESTON-One unregistered vehicle. MR. CARVIN-I think basically we've got three options. We can vote on it. which. I mean. I can't vote on it in its present form. MRS. EGGLESTON-I mean, it could be used for storage. under permitted uses. which it's being used for now. It isn't like the applicant can't use the property. He can use it for storage. He could rent. MR. PHILO-If he wants to fix a tire or something in it. really. that's all he's got there. because he can't put a toilet in. He can't put water in there. MR. TURNER-No. He can use it for storage. MR. PHILO-That's it. Could we vote on it, that he could use it for storage? MRS. EGGLESTON-Well. they're already using it for storage. That's a permitted use. MR. TURNER-That's a permitted use. You don't have to vote on that. MRS. EGGLESTON-So there are other avenues that he can use it for. It isn't like, if you say no, he can't repair vehicles there. He can't use the building. He can use the building. MR. CARVIN-See, the problem is it's Mr. Greene's building and Mr. Greene is allowing Mr. Smith to repair, whether for monetary gain or not, which makes it a commercial venture to Mr. Greene, which is not allowed in that area. That's never been allowed there. So. if Mr. Greene wants to work on his trucks in the garage, I've got no problem with that. because it's his. and it's an allowed use. MRS. EGGLESTON-And he hasn't shown us any financial records that indicate that he's losing money on the property. which is part of the criteria. MR. CARVIN-No. The concern is, Mr. Smith apparently wants to buy it. but he wants to be able to be sure that they have the same. MR. TURNER-A use variance. Tommy. is the strictest variance going. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. MR. TURNER-You have to prove reasonable return. MRS. EGGLESTON-And he hasn't. - 24 - MR. GREENE-I'll buy his equipment. It'll be mine. We'll start moving the stuff in tomorrow. as mine. I'll pay him for it. MR. TURNER-That's up to you. MR. GREENE-I mean. if I can't sell the garage. MR. TURNER-Nobody's saying you can't sell it. Si. you're permitted a storage. You're permitted to have a storage shed there. which you have. You've got a garage. MR. PHILO-And he wants to sell it to this guy with the same criteria. HR. GREENE-I can buy it. and still run the damn business right there. MR. CARVIN-As I said, we can grant it for a year, or we can then table it and have him come back with the bill of sale. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes, you're right, and then entertain a motion. MR. CARVIN-And then entertain a motion at that point. HR. TURNER-The problem I have is opening a commercial development in an MR zone. and that's not allowed. Read the purpose of the MR- S zone. and that's what it's all about. MR. PHILO-I do. and I would be with it 100 percent if this hadn't been there since 1940. MR. TURNER-That has nothing to do with it. We're not taking anything away from him that he doesn't already have. Tom. MR. PHILO-I believe you are. MR. TURNER-No. we're not. HRS. EGGLESTON-No. we're not. MR. PHILO-Excuse me. this man built up a business all of his life. HR. TURNER-Who? HR. PHILO-Mr. Greene. HR. TURNER-He still has use of the building. Nobody's taking that away from him. MR. PHILO-Okay. but he can't sell it to somebody else. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. he can. He can sell the property. HR. CARVIN-We said. we're saying that he can. but that's not what they're asking. HR. PHILO-Yes. but you're saying he can't use the thing for equipment. HR. CARVIN-No. Hr. Smith is asking for a variance that they can use that. basically. as co.mercial, but Mr. Greene is not selling it according to this application. and therefore it makes ita commercial venture that is not allowed in that particular zone. Basically. we have three options, right now. The first option is that we can vote on this particular application. as it stands. and as it is presented. I can't speak for any of the other Board members. but I can pretty much tell you that if this was voted on as it is right now. I'd have to vote against it. and with only four Board members, all I'd need is one vote. and that would knock it down. The second option. basically. is Hr. Turner has suggested - 25 - that we could grant a one year variance. in other words. to allow you to conduct that for a one year period. and then bring it back. at the end of the year. for review. Again. I don't mean to be the stick in the mud. here. I just think we're ducking the issue. I don't think that's what you guys are looking to do. here. all right. Fine. One year. then you come back and go through this whole baloney again. What I'm saying is. in one year. you could come back. and then it could be voted down at that pOint. and then you're done. The third option. which is. I think. again. you tell me if I'm wrong. is that Mr. Smith wants to buy the property from Mr. Greene. but you want to make sure that you will have the same privileges as Mr. Greene. As we have outlined under the thing. Mr. Greene has the right to work on his own equipment in the building. If he brings in other folks and works on other folks. as a commercial venture. that is not allowed. okay. If you put a sign out there saying. "Fred Saith's Contracting". that's a commercial venture. In other words. you're changing the nature of the. MR. TURNER-He doesn't even have to put a sign up. If the trucks are there with a sign on them. that qualifies. MR. CARVIN-So. what I am suggesting is that we table this for 60 days. allow you to work out the details for the sale. and you can bring it back in as document. contingent upon our approval. MR. GREENE-In the meantime. I'm going to get an attorney. land is grandfathered in. MR. TURNER-The gråndfathering doesn't go with him. It goes with you. This GENTLEMAN IN AUDIENCE-If something happened to him. what aa I supposed to do? MR. TURNER-You're not going to use it anyway. are you? If he sells it to Mr. Smith. you're not going to use it. GENTLEHAN IN AUDIENCE-If something happens to him tonight. what am I to do with that garage? The grandfather rights thing doesn't go. MR. TURNER-It'll depend on. whatever the will says. however the estate probates. HR. GREENE-To come back down to it. we've got a garage on Meadowbrook Road. We're doing work in that garage on the Meadowbrook Road. We got a permit to put that up. We bought that 20 years ago. We bought all that swamp. We're above your house. and you see that big high garage. HR. TURNER-Yes. but as far as I know. you only store your truck in there. HR. GREENE-That's right. or fix a tire. HR. TURNER-That's fine. but the minute you go in there and start a business. MR. GREENE-We don't do that. MR. TURNER-All right. then you get yourself in trouble. MRS. EGGLESTON-But here you want to lease the property to someone else. So now you're getting into a different area. MR. SMITH-I can't even park my pickup on his property? MR. GREENE-Sure. you can. MRS. EGGLESTON-Did Hr. Hatin say no? - 26 - MR. TURNER-You can't. MRS. EGGLESTON-Then he's the guy. MR. TURNER-That's what zoning is all about. MR. SMITH-I can't take my pick up and park on his property across the street? Can you park in her yard? MR. TURNER-I can with my own car. MR. SMITH-That's what I'm saying. MR. GREENE-That's his own pickup. MR. TURNER-Yes. but your name is on it that says. "Fred Smith Excavating". A private vehicle you can park there. You could file a D/B/A right at Warren County. and there you are. MR. SMITH-I'm not D/B/A at all. MRS. EGGLESTON-Mr. Smith. would you be willing to table this. get the papers drawn uP. and come back. under your own name. not as Mr. Greene as owner. but as you. with you as the owner of the property. and say to this Board. can I use this garage to repair my vehicles? And then we say. yes. the sale goes through. but if the sale doesn't go through. you're out. I mean. the variance. if we were to grant it. would not apply. if the sale did not go through. Would you be willing to do that? Would you come up to the microphone and ask us to table. you'd like to have the matter tabled? MR. PHILO-Would you go to this lady and get it taken care of? MR. CARVIN-I mean. I don't know of any other solution. MRS. EGGLESTON-I don't. MR. PHILO-That way. it could carry the grandfather. MRS. EGGLESTON-No. it can't. MR. TURNER-I can't carry the grandfather. The grandfather doesn't apply to Mr. Smith. He'd have to come for a variance. That's why he's here. He had to come tor a variance because he's not allowed to use that as the way he wants to use that. MR. SMITH-I would ask you to table this for. could we go for 30 days instead of 60 days? MRS. EGGLESTON-We could. if you could get back on the agenda. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-Well. tomorrow's submission day. He can't. MR. TURNER-He won't make it tomorrow. MRS. EGGLESTON-No. So it would have to be 60 days. MR. TURNER-And I've got to tell you again. the only problem I have with it is a business in that zone. That's it. That's what zoning's all about. MR. PHILO-I don't think those people understand what you're saying. yet. Would you take a minute. Mr. Turner. and explain that to Mr. Greene one more time? MR. TURNER-I told him. MR. PHILO-If this man buys the property. - 27 - MR. TURNER-If be buys it. he has to come for a variance. He's not grandfatbered. Mr. Greene is grandfatbered because be uses tbe garage, and wben be sells that garage to Hr. Smitb. Hr. Smith has got to come bere to get a variance. Tbat garage is not grandfathered. Tbe business is not grandfatbered in that garage. MR. PHILO-To make tbis man feel a little more coafortable, if be's purcbasing tbe bUilding, be said to Hr. Greene, I don't want to purcbase tbis building if I can't get a variance. As long as tbe man meets tbe same criteria tbat Mr. Greene is doing, is there any objection? MR. TURNER-Yes. tbere is for me. HR. CARVIH-I think all tbey bave to do is, if tbey come back witb tbe proper documentation tbat tbere is a sale going to be consummated, depending upon tbe approval of tbe variance. then I don't tbink tbere will be a problea. MRS. EGGLESTON-He's only one vote, Tom. be can only speak for bimself. We're a seven meaber panel. We have a new meaber coming on. Tbey may bave a different issue, but lets face it. It wouldn't get passed tonigbt, I do not believe, witb four of us here. So it's in his benefit to say, table it, and try it again witb a wbole Board here, witb a sale, because you're not gOing to get it tbis way. We're trying to give you tbat benefit. HR. GREENE-I don't know wbat I'a supposed to do, start tearing the building down? I've lost a sale. HR. TURNER-You don't bave to tear tbe building down. MR. GREEHE-But I can turn around and buy bis equipment and he can use it across tbe road, then. HR. CARVIN-Well. Hr. Smitb, because tbis is your application, do you want us to move to table? HR. SHITH-Yes. I do. MOTIOI TO TABLB USB VARIAIICB HO. 18-1993 I'RBOIRICK SMITH, Introduced by Fred Carvin who moved for its adoption. seconded by Joyce Eggleston. For 60 days. for furtber consideration, at tbe request of tbe applicant. Duly adopted tbis 27tb day of April, 1993, by tbe following vote. AYES. Hr. Pbilo. Hr. Carvin, Mrs. Eggleston. Mr. Turner NOES. NONE ABSENT. Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Tbomas MRS. EGGLESTON-And will we leave tbe public hearing open. Ted? MR. TURNER-We'll leave it open. ARBA VARIAJlCB HO. 19-1993 TYPB II JODI & KBVIR BROW. OW..R. SAHB AS ABOVB CORIBR 01' WISCOISIR & CBRTRAL AV.IUB APPLICAlT IS PROPOSI.G THB CORSTRUCTIOR 01' A T1IO (2) CAR, I'RBBSTAJlOIRG GARAGB TO BB PLACBD OR HIS PROPBRTY. AID IS SUBJBCT TO SICTIOI 179-30.1 WHICH RBQUIRBS COMPLIAJlCB WITH I'ROIT YARD SBTBACkS I'OR PROPBRTY BOURDBO BY TWO (2) ROADS. APPLICAJlT IS SBBKIIG RBLIBI' 01' SIXTBBI (16) I'BBT I'ROM HIS BAST I'RORT YARD SBTBACK RBQUIRBMBRT AS PBR SBCTIOR 179- 18C, WHICH RBQUIRBS THIRTY (30) I'BBT I'OR THB I'ROIT YARD SBTBACK. TAX HAP øUHBBR. 127-8-2.2 LOT SIZB. 100 I'T. BY 90 I'T. SBCTIOR 179-18C. 179-30.1 - 28 - JODIE & KEVIN BROWN. PRESENT S!AI'I' I.PUT Notes from Staff. Area Variance No. 19-1993. Jodie & Kevin Brown. Meeting Date. April 27. 1993. "Applicant is proposing to construct a eighteen by twenty-four (18 x 24) foot detached garage adjacent to his single family home. CONFORMANCE WITH USE/AREA REGULATIONS. 1. Proposed project fronts on two (2) pUblic roads and is subject to Section 179-30.1. which states that lots abounded by two (2) roads shall be deemed to have two (2) front yards and be required to meet the setbacks of the chapter. Applicant is proposing fourteen (14) feet for the east front yard setback and is seeking sixteen (16) feet relief from Section 179-18C. which requires thirty (30) feet for the front yard setback. REVIEW CRITERIA_ 1. DESCRIBE THE PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW PLACEMENT OF A STRUCTURE WHICH MEETS THE ZONING REQUIREMENTS. The practical difficul ty which does not allow placement of a structure which meets the zoning requirement rests with the fact that the proposed project site is bounded by two (2) roads and as such is considered to have two (2) front yards. which results in the project intruding into the required east front yard setback. 2. IS THIS THE MINIMUM VARIANCE NECESSARY TO ALLEVIATE THE SPECIFIC PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY OR IS THERE ANY OTHER OPTION AVAILABLE WHICH WOULD REQUIRE NO VARIANCE? It would appear that the relief requested is the minimum relief necessary to alleviate the specified practical difficulty and it appears that there is no other practical option for placement of the structure on the site which would require no variance. 3. WOULD THIS VARIANCE BE DETRIMENTAL TO THE OTHER PROPERTIES IN THE DISTRICT OR NEIGHBORHOOD? It would appear that the variance would not be detrimental to other properties in the district or the neighborhood. 4. WHAT ARE THE EFFECTS OF THE VARIANCE ON PUBLIC FACILITIES AND SERVICES? It would appear that the variance would have no effect on pUblic facilities and services. STAFF COMMENTS AND CONCERNS. Staff has no further comments regarding this project." MR. TURNER-Okay. Would you care to make any further comment? Are you satisfied with what you said in your application? I don't have a problem with it. MR. CARVIN-I was wondering. is there any possibility of attaching it right to the house. in other words. moving it in the 10 feet. and then I don't think they'd need any variances whatsoever. MRS. BROWN-Because it's too much of an expense for the fire wall and everything. We can't afford it. MR. CARVIN-The fire wall. MR. PHILO-That's right. MR. TURNER-Yes. They've got to have a fire wall between the garage and the house. fire rated sheet rock. MRS. EGGLESTON-Well. just the wall between the garage and the house. It's just a different type of sheet rock. actually. Did you price it. so you know it would be? MRS. BROWN-Yes. I did. MRS. EGGLESTON-What was the difference? . MRS. BROWN-We know that we're paying $6500 for what we have now. and that's all the money that we had for it. We're short as it is. MR. BROWN-That house up that's there now is new. so most of our money is tied up in that. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. - 29 - ~ ,-----/ MR. PHILO-If you attached it to the house. is what she's asking. How much more would it cost you? MRS. BROWN-The person that is doing it for us will not do it attached to a house. MRS. EGGLESTON-Why not? MRS. BROWN-Because they said it was too much of an expense. MR. TURNER-But he didn't give you a figure? Did you get a figure attached to the house. versus freestanding? MRS. BROWN-Not in dollars. but we've talked to people who've said it's more expensive to do it that way. MR. PHILO-It is when you put your frost walls down in. and you put it on a monolithic slab. MR. CARVIN-The only I'm asking is because I know in that area. and again. I know they're all fairly small houses. and I'm not opposed to you having a garage. Don't get me wrong. but I noticed that no one else has a "garage" out there. and the only one that did have a garage looked like it was a one car attached. MRS. BROWN-Ours is a one car garage. MRS. EGGLESTON-But not attached. It's not going to be attached to your house. MRS. BROWN-The people next door have a garage that's not attached to their house. MRS. EGGLESTON-On Central Avenue. or back in the little road there? Right in back of you? MR. TURNER-The one right behind the fence there. MRS. BROWN-There's two of the.. There's the people across the street fro. us. and there's the lady in back of us. has a garage away from her home. that's right by her fence. which is right by our back yard. MR. TURNER-Any further questions? MR. CARVIN-My only concern with it is that we're just building a lot of little detached houses. with garages. MR. TURNER-Well. the garage would have to be 10 feet from the building anyway. If it wasn't attached. the garage has to be 10 feet away from that building. MR. CARVIN-Yes. Well. no. what I'm saying is you've got small lots and you keep building s.all little structures on them. MR. TURNER-Yes. Well. if this wasn't here. they could put it back here. and they wouldn't even have to be here. MR. CARVIN-That's what I'm saying. even if they could move it. MR. TURNER-The septic field. see where it is? MRS. EGGLESTOI-Yes. right in back of where the garage is. HR. TURNER-They wouldn't even have to be here. MR. CARVIN-That's what I'm saying, if they attached the garage. they wouldn't even be here at all. MR. TURNER-Yes. - 30 - MR. CARVIN-Because they'd aeet all the setbacks. MRS. EGGLESTON-I'm wondering about the merits of having the cut for the driveway, well. then they'd have to turn the garage around, coming off of Wisconsin Avenue, instead of another cut. off of Central Avenue. which is one of the main thoroughfares through there. Do you know what I mean? MR. TURNER-Yes. MRS. EGGLESTON-Had you thought about placing the garage so your driveway would coae out on Wisconsin? MR. BROWN-If we did that, it would be probably right over the septic system. MRS. EGGLESTON-No. It wouldn't be on the septic. It just would change. MRS. BROWN-But we faced our house the other way because we wanted it set up that way. We thought it looked nicer that way. MR. CARVIN-Well, they'd need more of a setback. That's all, because if you turned it the other way, you're only looking at an 18, so 24, so you add another six or eight feet to the setback. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. but I know they look to avoid more cuts over that way, on the more busy streets. MR. CARVIN-My personal thought, I thought that's where they were coming out was on Wisconsin, because it was less of a driveway. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes, but they're not, see. MR. CARVIN-Yes. I see that. MRS. EGGLESTON-And across the existing water line. MRS. BROWN-Well, he's the only one who parks in the driveway anyway. MRS. EGGLESTON-But see. we have to look. you might not always own that house. Soaebody else might someday. so you have to look to the future here. So the driveway is going to go across this eXisting water line, but if you blacktop that, and if you had troubles there, how would you get? MR. TURNER-They punch a whole right under the driveway and put it right through. MRS. EGGLESTON-All right. MR. TURNER-Okay. Any other questions? MR. CARVIN-Is that an added expense? MR. PHILO-Well. he's going to save six courses of block, a footing. if he goes into a monolithic pour, he's going to save a side wall. the price of a side wall. MR. CARVIN-Which is roughly? MR. PHILO-$1800. MRS. EGGLESTON-On the other hand, if you hooked it to the house, you're saving one frost wall in the ground. if you hook it to the house. because you use the one that's. MR. PHILO-If he has 900 block in there. $5 a block. That's what he's going to save, material and labor. It's going to be a good - 31 - --' savings. MR. CARVIN-Did you get a lot of estimates. or did you just go to one person? MRS, BROWN-We talked to a couple of people. and they told us that it was .ore of an expense to attach it to the house. and the person that we have a contract with will not do the job attaching it to the house. He doesn't like to get into the fire wall and everything. MR. CARVIN-What type of house is it? MRS. BROWN-It's a double wide. MR. BROWN-That's why it's hard to. unless you. with the garage. MR. TURNER-It would be better detached than attached. 1'11 tell you that right now. MR. CARVIN-Well. I'm just thinking eventually. would they put a breezeway there. I aean. they probably could close it off. at some point. when you become more affluent. Right? MR. PHILO-I don't know why we're looking at that. MR. CARVIN-Well. I just don't know what the cost would be. That's all. MR. PHILO-They'd save a lot. MR. TURNER-Yes. but that end wall doesn't have a door cut in it. Setback. MRS. EGGLESTON-The side is three. So if he wasn't on a corner lot. he would be. he'd be all right. wouldn't he? It's because he's on a corner lot. MR. TURNER-He's on that corner lot. He fronts two streets. So he's got two fronts. That's his difficulty. and the placement of the modular is just 30 feet. So he just meets the setbacks. MR. CARVIN-Like I said. the only alternative he would have is to attach it. and obviously. the financial difficulty there makes it impractical. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. MR. TURNER-Yes. HR. CARVIN-I don't have a problem with it. MR. TURNER-Okay. hearing. No further questions? I'll open the public PUBLIC HBARIMG OPBMaD MO COHHBMT PUBLIC HBARIMG CLOSBD MR. TURNER-Motion's in order. HO~IOM ~O APPROVB AR.A VARIAMCB MO. 19-1993 JODI.. ERVIN 8RO.M. Introduced by Joyce Eggleston who moved for its adoption. seconded by Theodore Turner. And grant the. relief from Section 179-18C. front yard setback requirements. and the amount of the relief will be 16 feet. The practical difficulty is the property is bounded by two streets. as - 32 - "---- it's a corner lot. and the require.ents for the setbacks are more restricti ve. The existin9 septic system. as described on the drawing. prohibits the placement of the garage in a spot where it would comply with the necessary setback requirements. There's no nei9hborhood opposition. and there'd be no effect on services or facilities. Duly adopted this 27th day of April. 1993. by the following vote. AYES. Mr. Carvin. Mrs. Eggleston. Mr. Philo. Mr. Turner IIOES. NOliE ABSEIIT. Mr. Karpeles. Mr. Thomas ARB VARIAltCB RO. 28-1993 TYPB II SR-1A MARCIA L. OBItALB OllIBR. SAIIB AS ABOVB LOT 39. IRSPIRATIOR PAlue SUBOIVISIOR HOCKIIGBIRO LAMB APPLICAlT IS PROPOSIIG TO CONSTRUCT A TIIO (2) CAR. ATTACHBD GARAGB '10 AI IXIS'II.G SIIGLI POlLY HOD ARO IS RBOUI8'1II1G A 'HRBB AltO POUR 'B.'HS (3.4) I'BB'I RBLIBI' PROM SBC'IIOR 179-19C. IIHICH RBQUIRBS 'HB SUH 01' 'HB SlOB YARD SB'IBACK '10 Ba THIRTY (38) I'BI'I III'IH A 'BR (18) 1'00'1 KI.XHUH OIOIB SlOB. 'lAX HAP HUMBBR 148-2-39 LO'l SXZB. 18.259 SQ. 1''1. SBCTIOI 179-19C TOM NACE. REPRESENTING APPLICANT. PRESENT STAI'I' I.PU'I Notes from Staff. Area Variance No. 20-1993. Marcia L. Dekalb. Meeting Date. April 27. 1993 "SUMMARY OF PROJECT. Applicant is proposing to construct a twenty-two by twenty-four (22 x 24) foot attached garage to the west side of their existin9 single family dwelling. CONFORMANCE WITH USE/AREA REGULATIONS. 1. Applicant is proposing the sum of twenty-six and six tenths (26.6) feet for the side yard setbacks and is seeking two and seven tenths (2.7) feet relief from the west side yard setback and seven tenths (0.7) feet relief from the east side yard setback. from Section 179-20C. which requires the sum of thirty (30) feet for the side yard setbacks. with a minimum of ten (10) feet on one (1) side. REVIEW CRITERIA. 1. DESCRIBE THE PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW PLACEMENT OF A STRUCTURE WHICH MEETS THE ZONING REQUIREMENTS. The practical difficulty which does not allow placement of the proposed structure wi thin zoning requirements is that the only practical placement of the structure intrudes on the west side yard setback. 2. IS THIS THE MINIMUM VARIANCE NECESSARY TO ALLEVIATE THE PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY OR IS THERE ANY OTHER OPTION AVAILABLE WHICH WOULD REQUIRE NO VARIANCE? It would appear that the relief requested is the minimum variance necessary to alleviate the specified practical difficulty and there is no other practical place to site the proposed structure which would require no variance. 3. WOULD THIS VARIANCE BE DETRIMENTAL TO OTHER PROPERTIES IN THE DISTRICT OR NEIGHBORHOOD? It would appear that the variance would not be detrimental to other properties in the district or neighborhood. 4. WHAT ARE THE EFFECTS OF THE VARIANCE ON PUBLIC FACILITIES OR SERVICES? It would appear that the variance would not effect public facilities or services. STAFF COMMENTS AND CONCERNS. Staff has no other comments regarding this project." MR. PHILO-How many times has this group here been in for variances? MR. TURNER-You'll see a lot of them now for garages. probably. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. That's why I asked for the map of the plot plan. MR. PHILO-When they started this. they said there wasn't 90ing to be any. and everything was going to conform with this and this. and just like you said. they've come in and asked for porches and everything. and if any other contractor went to start this. how - 33 - '-- they got this through, and they said that there would be no more changes. There was one change on a corner. Remember that? We made that. they said that was the last one. MR. TURNER-That was to do with a porch on the front, because they didn't turn the septic the right way. MR. PHILO-Yes. MR. TURNER-If they'd have turned it the other way. they wouldn't have to be here. MR. PHILO-Who have they got for an engineer on this? Is it you? MR. NACE-ror the overall layout? MR. PHILO-Yes, and how many times, how many changes have you had on this? MR. TURNER-Just one. MR. HACE-This is the only one I'm aware of. MR. TURNER-This is the second one. They had to get a front yard setback for the porch that they added on the, you weren't here. Mrs. Rich was. MRS. EGGLESTOH-I did speak to Jim Martin today on this project, and he told me that, in his opinion, it's not the uniqueness of this lot that requires the dimension. It's that about everyone in here is going to need a variance. So it's not a unique lot in that it's the only one that's going to need it. That's not true. They're all going to need it, most of them anyway. He did say. and he didn't tell me who promised them, maybe Arlyne knows, they were promised they would be able to have garages. MR. TURNER-Probably the developer probably told him that. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-I looked at the building permit plat, and on that, there was a proposed garage size for a pie shaped lot like this. and it met the side yard setbacks. MRS. EGGLESTON-A one car, was it, Arlyne? MRS. RUTHSCHILD-It was a one car, well. it was the same size, 24 x 22. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-But the exact dimensions of that plot, or parcel, was not exactly the same. It was a little bit different. MR. NACE-ror the record, my name is TOlD Nace. I'm with Haanen Engineering, representing Mrs. Dekalb. I'm not aware of the other variances from this particular lot. The necessity for a variance here, quite frankly, steas out of the lack of communication between three design professionals, between the surveyor, between the engineer. myself, and the architect. This particular lot, in the final subdivision, when the surveyor was adjusting to make all of the lot lines close and all the lot descriptions fit together with each other. this particular lot was changed. The adjacent lot was made a little bit bigger, and this lot was made smaller, and we did not become aware of that change until the architect had already laid out the sites, and actually the magnitude of the implication of the change didn't become known until after construction was already started. We knew the change had occurred. but we didn't realize that it meant a problem in siting the proposed garage until construction was already under way. So that is, I don't know, and I haven't reviewed the other variance that came in. but that is the reason for this particular lot variance. - 34 - ':"-- MR. CARVIN-Mr. Nace. I assuae this is the layout plan. is that correct? MRS. EGGLESTOH-Yes. That's the one. the Town. I called and had them get out for us. MR. CARVIH-My only question is. these houses. and there isn't a lot of inforaation. Is this what is supposed to be the proposed garage? MR. MACE-Yes. These houses are just. this is a foot print of a relatively large. I think it's 60 by 26 or 28. with a 24 foot garage. 24 by 20 garage. MR. CARVIH-Okay. I drove through there the other day. and. MR. MACE-That is not what is actually constructed here. MR. CARVIH-I was going to say. I only found one house. really. that had a garage. MR. NACE-Okay. This was during subdivision phase. when we had no idea what the houses were going to exactly look like on each lot. MR. CARVIH-Okay. So. in other words. this is not necessarily an accurate portrayal? MR. RACE-Ho. This is not at all. This is just to show. within the footprints. that you can fit an individual house. Mow. I think this is the lot that we're talking about here. and you can see it's tighter than the others. and when the surveyor adjusted this front line. for soae reason. he brought it over further in the front. and aade more of a pie out of it. MR. CARVIM-Well. if I aight aake an observation, certainly as a layaan. driving through that area, and certainly there isn't any of thea that have any garages, with the exception of one, and I airrored Toa's concern here. that once we open the door on these garages. we're going to have a line out the door asking for garages. and ay honest opinion is that when you start adding these garages. and you start adding two car garages, they're going to be on top of each other. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. They are. MR. NACE-Don't base that upon this. MR. CARVIN-I'm not basing it on this. personal observation. I'a basinCJ it on just MR. NACE-Okay. To really accurately assess that. you'd have to CJO back to the building peraits and the plot plans that were subaitted with the building peraits. MRS. EGGLESTOH-The Building Adainistrator told ae today that there are few that could be built without needing a variance. He told ae that today. MR. PHILO-What I'a saying is. this poor guy down on the Bay Road that bought Hillis' property, or Aronson's, where Balfour is in there now. they're giving hia just as auch flack as I've seen them give anybody, and there's two or three contractors in this Town that are on his but because they're jealous because the guy's building in there. in ay concept. and here they went ahead and designed this and got this thing approved, and we asked them. when this went in. there are not going to be anyaore changes, aa I right? No. W. changed a corner. We changed porches. because they couldn't even meet the criteria, because when they aoved that corner, they couldn't put the front porch on the house. - 35 - HR. TURNER-Well. they couldn't put it on because the way they had the septic systea in the back of the house. if they turned it the other way. they could have moved the house back another. the footage. and got the front porch on without getting a variance. but they didn't do that. HR. CARVIM-The porch. that was one or two feet. I mean. that's not putting a 24 or 28 foot garage on. HRS. RUTHSCHILD-It wasn't really a porch. It's an entranceway cover. HR. TURNER-Yes. HR. CARVIN-Yes. Again. I didn't have a problem with that. and I think we kind of made a blanket thing there. HR. PHILO-That's right. but if they'd have done the septic tank. they wouldn't have had any problem. MR. CARVIM-I'm of the feeling that we have to set a precedent here. I aean. either we're going to allow garages in there. and if we allow a garage. I want to see each footprint of these things. how close they actually are to the neighbors. MRS. EGGLESTOM-A map. HR. CARVIM-As I said. I'a a layman. I drive through that neighborhood and I see a lot of nice houses and they're all. but I can just see that what'll happen is. the one guy puts up a two car garage. and as these folks become aore affluent. the cars aultiply. and I just think that they're. again. they're awful saall. and I think when you start adding 40 foot or 50 foot. it looks comfortable. It looks really nice. but. aan. I think we're going to have a real aess there. MR. NACE-You're saying how much? HR. CARVIM-Well. 28 and 28. I mean. if one neighbor puts 28 on and the other neighbor puts 28 on. you've gobbled up 56 feet. MR. NACE-Twenty-four is a good sized two car garage. I can't really speak to the issue without. and give you the facts. going back and looking at all the plot plans. It was the architect who did the placement of the houses on the lots. I could go back and look at that and then present you with soae facts for information. and if that is your druthers. I will do that. HRS. EGGLESTOM-Does the Town have a current aap of the layout? MR. NACE-They have. the BUilding Inspector. the Building Department has a map of each lot. MRS. EGGLESTOM-Why didn't they give that to us tonight. then? It's not this one. he said. This is the wrong one. MR. CARVIM-Yes. This is not the right one. This is a conceptual. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-I had questioned this. MR. TURMER-Let ae ask you a question. Is it necessary for this applicant to have a two car garage? Could she do with a car and a balf? HR. HACB-I can't speak to that. I believe. sbe asked for a two car garage because she felt she needed it. HR. TURMER-Does sbe bave two cars? MR. NACE-Yes. I believe she has. - 36 - MR. TURNER-Because I didn't see anything there the day I went to it. nothing there. MR. PHILO-Neither did I. MR. CARVIN-I don't remember. I know that there was no paved driveways. It's a rural route. because it's brand new. MR. TURHER-Yes. It was just done. MR. NACB-It's still being finished. MR. CARVIH-Yes. and I give these folks a lot of credit. I saw a lot of people out there raking. and. MR. HACB-I think. you're talking about the character of the neighborhood. and I think those people in there have a great pride in the neighborhood. and if you're worried about the character of the neighborhood. they're ten tiaes as worried as you are. MRS. EGGLBSTOR-But you don't want to live on top of one another. e i the r . MR. CARVIH-And that's what ay fear is. MR. RACE-We're asking for two point seven feet of variance on that side. Quite frankly. with the way they have worked to aaintain the tree. the ground cover separation between the lots. and keep existing trees protected. I don't see that as a great big issue. I think they're going to be aore concerned. froa this Board. it's their neighborhood. MR. CARVIN-I still think that. as a Board. we should address this on a bulk basis. MRS. EGGLESTON-Because maybe her's is only two feet. The next guy aight be. MR. PHILO-Twenty-two. MR. NACE-I could tell you. from knowing the lots. that this lot is one of the worst. because it is pie shaped. and the surveying adjustaent that was made made it even worse than it had been. I'll be glad to co.e back to you with all of the plot plans. I have thea in ay office. MR. PHILO-That are right? MR. NACE-They are right. MR. PHILO-What I'a saying is. they've already been plotted? MR. NACE-They've been plotted. and I'll come back to you with the deed plots. That'll be even aore accurate. MRS. EGGLESTON-Yes. MR. RACE-To say this is not accurate. this is a subdivision plan. MR. PHILO-We're looking at one thing and voting on another. MRS. EGGLESTON-Okay. Just so we're sure of what we're doing. I hope you understand that. because we're not trying to be difficult. MR. NACE-I understand your concerns. I aa sitting here in good conscience and telling you I think this is the worst. MRS. EGGLESTON-Okay. So. if you'll do that. MR. TURHER-Toa. would you address the issue with her over the size - 37 - of tbe garage? HR. RACE-Yes. I will. the necessity of a two car. HR. TUR.SR-Because that is an alternative. If she doesn't have the need for the two car ;arage. then there's no sense. HR. RACE-Do you need a request from me to table? HR. TURRER-Yes. HR. RACE-Okay. You have that request from the applicant to table. '0'1'101 'fO '1'OLK DBA VDIA1CB 10. 28-1993 MARCIA L. DBDLB. Introduced by Theodore Turner wbo .oved for its adoption. seconded by Fred Carvin. At the applicant's request. to provide further infor.ation to this Board. in respect to the actual layout of the bo.es on the lots. Duly adopted this 27th day of April. 1993. by the followin; vote. HR. CARVIN-When this was put together. were the people given. was there only two or three housing types that tbey can choose from? HR. NACE-I've forgotten the exact number. I think there were four or five. but yes. they were given a specific set of .odulars to choose fro.. AYES. Mr. Pbilo. Hr. Carvin. Hrs. Eg;leston. Hr. Turner ROES. NONE ABSERT. Hr. Karpeles. Mr. Tho.as HR. CARVIN-My only question was. these houses. the plans ori;inally included a garage. I'd like to see what. MR. NACI-I think if we go back. if we can pUllout the individual plot plans. I feel very confident that .ost of the sites. if not all of the.. other than this one. are in a position for a ;arage. HR. CARVIN-If they conform. because I'. just trying to avoid a parade tbrough here. I mean. that's the whole thin;. because if they went in with the knowledge that it was only going to be a one car ;arage. for exa.ple. HR. RACE-If the surveyor hadn't adjusted the lot line. we wouldn't have a proble. with this line. HR. TUR.IR-We'd have been all ri;ht. HR. PHILO-Like the ;uy that was here before. That's the only problem we had. then come back. then another ti.e. the only problem we had. now another night. HR. HACI-I think we can get the facts before the Board. MR. TURNER-Thank you. MR. CARVIH-I want to brin; before the Board. I still bave a lot of thin;s tabled. in my tabled file here. that I think are beyond the 60 days. and I just wanted to either ;0 through them. and if they are beyond 60 days. can we clear the. off our docket? This one I know is still current. Getty. HR. TURNER-I got letters right here. and we'll read the. to you. that Arlyne furnished. HR. CARVIN-Tbis one is Karen Johns. I have. God only knows when - 38 - this thing was tabled. It was brought before us. MRS. BGGLBSTOH-Is it a '93 or a '921 MR. CARVIN-A '92. way back. MRS. BGGLBSTOH-Where is it located? MR. CARVIH-Karen Johns. Bloody Pond Road. and that's ReMax. and I think this one had to do with. they were going to lop out. they had a big lot. and they were going to .ake a little one out of it. MRS. BGGLESTOH-That's up on the Ridge Road. across froa the Ridge Terrace. MR. CARVIH-Down on Bay and 149. because I had that one still as tabled. MRS. BGGLESTO.-I think that's aoved forward. I think we gave that to thea. MR. TURHBR-Who's that? Karen Johns? MR. CARVIH-Karen Johns. I have 48-1992 as the. and then I had Williaa Walker. 62-1992. MR. TURHER-He hasn't co.e back yet. Mr. O'Connor's supposed to. MR. CARVIH-All right. This thing. as far as I can tell. this is dated. MR. TURHER-This is across fro. West Mountain Luaber. MR. CARVIN-This looks like back in July or August. MR. TUR.ER-What happened to that. that concerns the double the lot width. So the Town Board aaended the Zoning Ordinance so they could have the one cut. So that's gone. MR. CARVIH-Okay. So that is done. All right. How about Williaa Walker? MR. TURHER-Williaa Walker is still open because Mr. O'Connor is supposed to be his attorney. and Mr. O'Connor submitted a letter soae tiae ago saying that he hadn't gotten everything together yet. MR. CARVIN-Well. I have the last year County Planning Board. It went before the County Board June 10th. I aean. Mr. O'Connor has had a number of aonths to get this off the docket. I'd like to send this right back to Mr. O'Connor saying that we've taken it off our docket. and he has to resubait it. MR. TURHBR-I totally agree with you. MR. CARVIH-I aean. do I have to make that as a aotion? MR. TURNER-It's up to this Board. In June. when this coaes up again. the neighbors up there are not going to get notified if we don't do it this way. MR. CARVIH-Then. all right. lets go through and we'll do it in bulk. Debaron Associates? MRS. RUTHSCHILD-That's been peraanently ended. What happened was. when we first got in touch with them. they said they were going to sub.it. then they sent us a letter. which Ted has on Debaron. stating that. at this point. they want to be taken off the agenda because they've had probleas. MR. CARVIH-Okay. That is docuaented. so that they are off? - 39 - '~ HR. TURNER-Tbey're off. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Jaaes Rossi. beavy equipaent. I tbink Jia did address tbat. HRS. BGGLISTON-Yes. Tbey're working on tbat. Tbat wasn't anytbing tbat caae before us anyway. MR. CARVIM-Okay. Tbat's not a aotion or anytbing. I tbink tbat's just a follow up. rigbt? HRS. IGGLISTOM-Yes. MR. PHILO-Wbat bave tbey done on tbat Jaaes Rossi? MRS. RU'1'HSCHILD-I'a not familiar witb tbat. MR. TURIER-Tbat's tbe garage on Big Booa Road. MR. PHILO-Tbey proaised tbey were going to go over and take care of it. MR. TURIBR-Tbey did. Tbey went over and looked at it. HRS. BGGLBSTOR-Tbey've been working on it. served and wbatnot. Tbere's been papers MR. TURNER-Tbey served bia with papers. MR. CARVIR-Ricbard Heraance. This is t~e guy. be wanted to put a trailer. or a bouse. MRS. BGGLISTON-And be was supposed to get the deed in his own naae. HR. TURNBR-Take that off. He'll bave to reapply. MR. CARVII-We bave not gotten anything official on that. So tben we'll have to aake a aotion to clear that. then. right? Okay. Hy good friends the Potvins. over where I live. HRS. RUTHSCHILD-Tbat's still in tbe works. HR. TURI.R-That's still in the works. They're trying to aeet with Hr. Hiner. HR. CARVIR-Yes. but on the otber hand. tbis was brougbt before the Board in Deceaber. and if we're going to bold to our 60 days. Again. Hike O'Connor will sit on tbis stuff until the cows coae hoae. So. I aean. if he's got a. if he keeps charging tbese folks. if we're going to say 60 days. and be hasn't gotten back to us witbin the 60 days. I'a going to move it. MR. TURIER-That's fine witb me. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-He does bave until two o'clock toaorrow. Tbat will be bis 60 days. because tbe resolution was passed in February. HR. CARVIN-Yes. well. I'll give thea all until two o'clock toaorrow. as far as tbat's concerned. So. I've got no problea with tbat. Tbis is part of Getty again. Apparently. this was the previous aotion. MR. TURIIR-I've got a letter right here. MR. CARVIR-But. now. is this a different one. 14-1993. and then I bave 3-1993. So I bave two different. HRS. RUTHSCHILD-Yes. They bave brought in new inforaation. wbicb they're subaitting for tbe Hay agenda. - .. - --- HRS. BGGLBS~OI-So that one's being acted on. HRS. RUTHSCHILD-Yes. HR. CARVIN-Well, we bave two use variances, bere, rigbt? Okay. Tbis one superseded tbe other one, didn't it, because this one they caae in, and they wanted to. lets see, retail carpeting. HR. ~URIBR-They're going to coae in Hay. Is that Leeailt's? HRS. RU~HSCHILD-Yes. HR. TURIBR-they're coaing in Hay. HRS. RUTHSCHILD-Witb docuaented financial hardship. MR. CARVIR-Because I've got two different calls here. I've got 3- 1993, which I think we tabled because we found out that there was the carpet store in there. So we never pulled this one, and then tbey resubaitted this one, and then they resubaitted this one, and it's this one that's tabled. So should we kill the previous one? HR. TURR.R-Yes. HR. CARVIR-So that it's only 14-1993. HR. TURRER-I think the aotion, in and of itself. kills that one anyway, the aotion that we aade. HR. CARVIR-I'll just put it into a aotion and aake it official. HR. TURRER-Yes. HR. CARVIN-So then we'll just go with 14-1993. HRS. RUTHSCHILD-~hat's right. HRS' EGGLBSTOH-Yes. HR. CARVIH-Okay. HO!IO. !O RBHOVB I'RO. IfHB AG..DA or !HB OD...saDRY ZO.I.G BOARD or APPBALS. !HB rOLLOWI_ us. AIID ARBA VARIAIIC.S !HAt' HAV. .... !DUD BY !H. BOARD. WHICH HAV. GO.. B.YO.D !O '8 DAY t'IHII LDO:!A!IO. rOR ADDI!IOMAL I.rORKA!IO. ..0U88!.D BY!" BOARD, Introduced by 'red Carvin who aoved for its adoPtion, seconded by Joyce B9gleston. ~hese applications will expire at 2 p.a. Bastern Daylight Savings Tiae, April 28th, 1993. The first one is Use Variance Ho. 3-1993 Leeailt/Getty Petroleua Corporation; Area Variance No. 2-1993, Williaa Potvin; Area Variance Ro. 135-1992, Richard Heraance; Area Variance Ro. 62-1992, Williaa H. Walker, Jr. Duly adopted this 27tb day of April, 1993, by the following vote. AYES. Mr. Philo, Hr. Carvin, Hrs. Iggleston, Hr. Turner ROBS. RORE ABSERT. Hr. Karpeles, Hr. Thoaas HR. TURR.R-Okay. I've got soae inforaation I'll just read to you. This is froa Arlyne. This has to do with, I bave a letter tbat'. attacbed. froa Hike O'Connor, regarding tbe current status of the Tyll dock iasue. This is soaething I don't tbink you people know about, because this goes back a ways. Leeailt'. will be subaitting your requested inforaation for the Hay agenda, and the Tyll property, which is on Hanniford Road in Lake George. this is froa Hr, O'Connor. He's writing to David Hatin, "I write to you for the purpose of aiaply acknowledging that I have not forgotten about the - 41 - pending violation for Arthur J. Tyll. I have. since the last time I wrote to you. been in contact with Lawrence P. Justice. the attorney for the adjoining owner who is most effected by the deck in question. Olga Hopper. I am attempting to work out soa. type of consent or agreement by that adjoining owner for a proposal that would be amenable to all involved. I note that tbe survey indicated that the dock serving tbe property of Mrs. Hopper in fact encroaches upon tbe frontage of tbe property of Mr. Tyll. I'm hoping tbat soae type of trade off of mutually satisfactory easement will help us go forward with making an agreeable presentation to the Queensbury Zoning Board of Appeals." And he goes on to say. "If your question by the ZBA is the status. I have no problem with you sharing this letter with them." And I just read it to you. Okay. Then we've got another one. This is for tomorrow night. Again. this is from Arlyne. In Rourke's advertisement and agenda. relief for the lot widtb is not listed. but is enuaerated in the Staff Notes as one of the diaensional requirements that the applicant is seeking relief for. and on Shay's application and agenda. relief for the west side yard setback is not listed. but is one of the dimensioDal requiremeDts enumerated in the Staff Notes that the applicant is seeking relief for. MRS. EGGLESTON-So that aeans they weren't advertised properly? MR. TURNIR-Mo. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-On Mr. Shay's application. Mr. Rehm's applicatioD for Mr. Shay's project. I didn't discover this until he subaitted it already. and on the plot plan. it shows the houses over the side yard setback. 19 iDches. 28.5. It's 19 inches over. He didn't mention this in the application. and I was looking at tbe site plaD for other inforaation, I see that the side yard setback there is a line there. and theD the house is sticking out a certain amount. then I see he has it on there. 19 inches. So that required another setback. MRS. EGGLESTOM-So. actually. how legal are we. with it not being advertised properly? You have to take the worst scenario. if they sued. MR. CARVIH-Well. I was going to say. this one is the one that. you've got the screwball arrangement there. MR. TURNBR-Yes. MR. CARVIN-Have we aade a concession to the lawyer for somethiDg? MRS. IGGLBSTOM-We met up there Saturday. yes. MR. TURMSR-I think the first thing we should decide is. are we goiDg to hear this application? Do you tbink there's enough difference to rehear this application? If we agree that the information provided is not eDougb. tben we don't have to hear it, Then he can sue us on the original. and if we agree to bear it. tben we've got to go forward witb it. MR. CARVIM-Well. I wasn't able to make it Saturday. I apologize. but I think this is a substantially different floor plan than what he originally submitted. isn't it? MRS. EGGLESTON-It's back. The original plan was 13 feet from the lake. This one's. MR. TURNER-The old house was 13 feet. 14 feet from the lake. and the new one is back 30 feet. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-At the narrow width. it's 30 feet. which is the same thing as the site plan for the just previous application. - 42 - MRS. BGGLESTOH-But isn't the question whether it was advertised right or not? Since it wasn't advertis.d properly, do we hear it, or we don't hear it? Isn't that the question? MR. TUaHla-That is the question, but do you want to .ake th.. co.e back for 19 inches? Mas. IGGLBSTOI-Well, I don't, but I'. thinking, why doesn't the attorney say whether this is legal or not, instead of us say that? MR. CARVII-If it should get turned down, I .ean, he'll pick up that 19 inches, and he'll ra. it right down our throat. MRS. IGGLESTOI-That's what I ..an. MR. CARVII-I .ean, if this guy is going to play a dirty card, then I think we really should play it close to the vest. I .ean, he's pretty .uch said that he's going to take us to court when he w.nt out of here the other day. We've bent over, pretty .uch, backwards. I wasn't out there. I'. gOing to have to bow to your decision. MR. TURHla-It's usually been the position of this Board that if it's not adv.rtis.d right, th.y have to r.-advertis. it. MRS. EGGLISTOB-I would think, for th.ir own prot.ction, th.y'd want to r.-advertise. MR. CAaVIH-As I was going to say, as I r....b.r the .ain reason that was turn.d down was because we didn't feel that he'd .stablish.d a practical difficulty, the vi.w of the lake. Mas. EGGLBSTON-So we agreed to let it co.e back again. Re.e.b.r that. MR. CARVII-So we let it co.e back. MRS. BGGLBSTOH-But it was supposed to be with a different plot plan. MR. CARVIN-Plot plan. Ma. PHILO-H. hasn't done anything on it y.t. Has. EGGLBSTOI-Io. H. hasn't start.d bUilding. Is that what you .ean? 10. MR. CARVII-As I said, I haven't found .y, I'd have to go through ay old r.cords. I thought it looked diff.rent b.caus. I thought it look.d like h. had paint.d it. HRS. RUTHSCHILD-It's skewed just a little bit. HR. TURIBR-A little bit. It isn't .uch differ.nt. MR. CARVIN-Will w. have a full Board to.orrow? MR. TURIBR-W.ll, Bob Karpel.s is out of town, and I don't know where Chris is. MR. CARVII-W.ll, I'd hate to go in it with just a four Board ae.b.r. I r.ally would. I ..an, if we decide to go ah.ad with it, and I think w.'r. treading on thin ic. with this guy. I .ean, if for so.e r.ason, it gets shot down with four .e.b.rø or five ...b.rs, I think he'll coae back and nip us. HRS. BGGLBSTON-The only thing I can s.. is if it gets passed, and a neighbor said, I didn't r.ad in the pap.r it would b. that close, and I didn't co.e and do anything, th.n he finds out it is, can he say, well, you people didn't. - 43 - MR. CARVII-Well. of course. there wasn't any public opposition last tiae because they brought it in. what. Deceaber or January. wasn't it? MRS. BGGLESTOI-Yes. HR. CARVIH-I hate to say it. I think the 19 inches is nit picking. but I think for this particular case. we better play it pretty close to the vest and have it advertised properly. MRS. IGGLESTON-And what's the other one that wasn't advertised properly? MRS. RUTHSCHILD-Hr. Rourke. HRS. BGGLBSTOI-The Rourkes. MR. TURIBR-Yes. up at Glen Lake. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-That's a preexisting lot. and he needs to request relief froa the width. He's tearing down an existing caap and building. HR. PHILO-He's going froa a one story. right. to a story and a half. HRS. BGGLBSTOH-Again. they aissed a side yard setback? MRS. RUTHSCHILD-Ho. lot width. MR. TURHBR-Lot width. HRS. RUTHSCHILD-Just a lot width. which is existing. HR. TURNER-That wouldn't effect so auch as the setback would. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-Ho. MR. PHILO-How's the setback depth? Was that proper. or did they have to go back? It looked like it was in line with the other houses. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-He dropped the depth of the house. and he pulled it back. I'a not quite sure how far he is back now. about 45 feet. I think. Mr. Rourke. He's as far back as he can go. because there's a retaining wall. HR. CARVIH-Yes. There's quite a retaining wall. Yes. I went out and looked at that. HRS. RUTHSCHILD-He's five feet within. HR. CARVII-The other houses around it are. MR. TURIBR-As long as we're talking about Mr. Rourke. could you dig out his old file? HRS. RUTHSCHILD-Yes. HR. TURIIBR-Because his house was around 3.000 square feet the last tiae. Just so the new Board aeabers can see what we're talking about. before up to now. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-I'll have the old files of the Rourke. O'Toole's. and Shay. MRS. EGGLISTOH-It would seea like that that's a question. shouldn't Paul answer that question? MR. TURHSR-What's that? - .. - MRS. BGGLBSTOI-Whether those should be re-advertised or not. HR. TURISa-Io. That's our deteraination. He won't answer it for you. Mas. BGGLBSTOI-I aean. if it wasn't advertised proper? Ha. 'URMIR-He won't answer it for you. He'll just say. you aake the deteraination whether you want to hear it or not hear it. He's done it before. He's said. that's your deteraination. MR. PHILO-What do you think is the best. youn9 lady? HaS. aU,.HSCHILD-Well. you have to aate a deteraination whether you're 90in9 to hear it. Is it sUbstantially different? MR. TURlla-That's the first thing. The first thing. if you a9ree not to hear it. then it's dead in the water anyway. because then he's 90in9 to sue us. Then the next aove is. if you decide to hear it. are you 90ing to hear it based on the way it's advertised? So there's a setback on the west side that's 19 inches off. Do you want to hear it. based on that. or do you want it re-advertised. and Fred's saying he wants it re-advertised because of the problea. that we have. HR. CARVII-Well. I aean. I tbink it's nitpickin9. for 19 incbes. but I think because this 9uy. ay 9uess is. HR. TURIBa-Well. I think it's the difference between saYing you were going 70 ailes and hour in a 55. versus 80 ailes an bour. Tbat's what it is. but it doesn't aake any difference. You still were racing. HR. CARVIM-Yes. HRS. BGGLBSTOM-8ut ay whole thing is tbe nei9hbor who didn't get notified properly. MR. TUaMBa-See. those are aostly seasonal up there. and they ai9bt have soae input. HR. CARVIM-I really think we should advertise it properly. HR. TURlla-I agree with Ted. It aight be nit picking. but lets do it and have it ri9bt. MR. PHILO-Lets do it that way. HR. TURIBR-Io. We'll do it toaorrow ni9ht. HRS. RUTHSCHILD-Okay. So what's your decision? You're going to bear it? You're not 90in9 to hear it? HR. TURMBR-We're not going to hear it. based on the error in the advertising. MRS. aUTHSCHILD-8ut the application that was subaitted. you will hear once it's re-advertised? HR. TURIBa-ai9ht. Has. aUTHSCHILD-You'll consider that. HRS. BGGLBSTOI-You aean. you're asking us. do we think there's enough of a change. because we told hia there had to be a cbange before we would rehear it. MRS. aUTHSCHILD-ai9ht. HRS. BGGLBStOI-Do you tbink tbere is a substantial enougb change in - .5 - the? See. I thought. Ted. when we were up there now. they said the old plan. the way they had the first plan. it would have been 13 feet froa the water. and now they've aoved it back. and it's going to be 43 feet. HR. TURREa-The old house is 13 feet froa the water. MRS. BGGLBSTOR-Yes. All right. MRS. aUTHSCHILÐ-Yes. That's what they're saying. actually 14 feet. MRS. BGGLBSTOR-Okay. See. he aisunderstood ay question. then. HR. TURREa-Here's what was advertised. Has. EGGLESTOR-What was it advertised as? MR. TUR.Ea-The old advertising was. is the required shoreline setback 75 feet. proposed shoreline setback of 25 feet. MRS. IGGLESTOR-Okay. So now they're going to be 43. MRS. aUTHSCHILD-Thirty at the narrowest. MR. CAaVIR-That's off the original. MRS. IGGLBSTOR-Okay. So they've aoved it back five feet. MRS. aUTHSCHILD-But you see. when he caae here. if you'll reaeaber. he had. they had changed that setback to 10 aore feet. aeaeaber he said it would be 35. not as it is. I reaeaber hia saying that. Ha. CAaVIR-See. 1 think our problea. and again. without reading the ainutes. but did we say they could aove it back up the hill. here. considerably aore? MR. TURRSa-We said we thought they could aove it back up the hill. HR. CARVIR-And he said they couldn't. and his reasoning. basically. was the view and the lake. Ha. 'URRSa-And I explained to hia Saturday. I said. the view is not the criteria for the variance. Ha. CAaVIR-Yes. Okay. I just wanted to aake sure that w. were all on the saae page. Has. IGGLBS'OH-But is actually the house plot the saae? HRS. aUTHSCHILD-Yes. the size of the house the saae. It's been skewed a little bit. HRS. EGGLBSTOR-So. to boil this down. that's the change between the new plan and the old? HaS. aU'fHSCHILD-Well. because of the skewing. th. larger setback is larger. It's like 45 feet. The narrowest setback is alaost the saa.. Ma. PHILO-Why can't he bring it back to what you asked hia? Ha. CAaVIR-Well. that's what ay contention was. I thought aaybe they could aove it back up the hill. because if you take a look at the other. the neighbor's lots. 1 a.an. he's the guy that's stuck down on the lake the farthe.t. I aean. he's the closest to the lake. HR. TURRER-Yes. he is. You're right. Ha. CARVIR-And his arguaent was that if he aoved it up the hill. - .6 - tben be would be blocked. and I said. well. you've been blocking everybody else for years. HR. TURIBR-What's the scale? One 1ncb is 20 feet. Well. on tbe new one. it's 1/16th. So it's 176 feet froa bere to tbe back of tbat bouse on tbe new plan. and it's 30 feet froa the deck to the closest point on tbe sborel1ne. HR. PHILO-Wby can't be aove it back? HRS. BGGLBSTOI-Tb1s is tbe old plan. HR. TURIBR-Tbis is tbe old plan. Tbis is all ledge in here. he says if be goes back farther here. there's an area here be's going to put his aound systea in. back here. and tben be tb1s is wet in here. This is all wet in bere. low that says HR. PHILO-So. if he coaes back witb this. it isn't goi.9 to hurt anything in his aound systea. if be coaes back to aake that where you want it. HR. TURIBR-Yes. but there's a ledge right in here. HR. PHILO-Let h1a blow it off. MR. 'URIBR-I know. HR. PHILO-It's soaething he could do. aa I right. Ted? MR. TURIIR-Yes. HRS. BGGLBSTOI-Ted. wouldn't you agree with ae? We looked at this together. you and I. that if he aoved it back any further. he would be looking in the back yards of tbese two caaps? MR. TURIIR-Pretty auch. HRS. BGGLBSTOI-Yes. He's just have a funnel view out. MR. CARVII-Okay. difficulty. MRS. BGGLBSTOI-Tbat waa hia whole thing. He aa1d if he had to do that. be would just bave no alternative. but to rebuild in the saae footprint. Well. then tbat establ1sbes the practical HR. CARVII-But I gue.. ay question 1a. be's given ua five feet. Could he go another five feet? Can we puah that 1asue? I aean. how aucb further back? HR. PHILO-Do you think he .bould aove it back. Ted? HR. TURIIR-He probably could aove it back another five. ten feet. but that would probably be it. MR. CARVII-Well. lets aee. He's 45 feet bere. to the point of the houae. MRS. IGGLBS'fOI-And before be waa. MR. TURIIR-He'a 30 feet. and the deck is part of the structure. ao that's where the .etback coae. froa. HR. CARVII-Okay. So. it bas to be 30. it's 30 feet bere. Well. tbat's the saae a. wbat he's got here then. HR. TURHJ:R-Yes. HRS. ZGGLBSTOI-There is soaetbing that's different. though. the 45. - .7 - -~ HR. TU.MBR-He turned tbe house a little. HR. CARVII-I thougbt he turned tbe house. That's. when I looked at it. I thougbt it bad been turned a little. MRS. BGGLBSTOM-Yes. HR. TURIBR-See these checks right here? There's a wall that runs right under tbe docks like tbis. Tbat's wbere tbe shoreline i8. right there. It's not there. It's right there. MR. CARVII-And bis septic will be up in here so.e place. HRS. RUTHSCHILD-Tbe saae place. HRS. BGGLBSTOM-He's going to do a aound. and he's also going to tear down this garage up in tbe front. fred. the existing garage. and tbere's another shed over here he's going to take down. right bere, This little shed. HR. CARVII-Do you tbink that he falls within the ainiaua variance. I aean. ainiaua relief? HR. TURMBR-Yes. but I don't want us to get hung up on the idea that it's the view. forget the view. When you read his application. all he says is about the view. and the view is not. has no concern with what we have to rule on. We have to rule on. is this tbe ainiaua relief. and wbat' s the practical difficulty for bia locating this house where he's sbowing it on the aap? And you've got to look at the property. because like I said. it's all ledge rock. HR. PHILO-Well. that ledge rock's right in here. HR. 'URRBR-It starts right beret and it goes rigbt up the bill. HRS. BGGLES'OI-It goes right up under the house. MR. TURMIR-And tben it ends. and there's an area for bis aound systea right here. and then this is all wet back bere. HR. CARVIR-Well. I tbink we have enougb bere to bear it. Again. ay personal opinion is. I tbink tbat the 19 inches is very i.portant in this. I'd tow the line on tbis just as tight as I could. So. I'd certainly re-advertise it and aake sure that all our dots. HR. TURIBR-All our I's are dotted and our T's are crossed. HR. CARVIM-There you go. and then. look. if they want to coae back in tbe arguaent. and tbe arguaent doesn't pass the Board. then we've heard it twice. and tben let Judge Dyer figure it out. HR. TURMBR-Haybe ay bone of contention is they're saying tbeir view. right? They could aove this back a little bit. because tbey've got rooa froa bere to wbere tbat aound systea is. plenty of it. HR. CARVII-I just didn't know if tbis was higber. HR. TURMER-Tbis ia bigber. It is bigher. HR. CARVIR-I didn't know. if tbey aoved it back. if the view still would be. you still would have a fairly decent view of tbe lake. even though it was higher? HRS. BGGLBSTOI-Mo. HR. TURIIR-You don't think h. could look over that other caap? MRS. EGGLBS'OI-lo. I do not. and they just raised bis assessaent to - ..8 - _.~- .....-....---..-. .. alaost $t....... HR. TURI.R-If tbere's any practical difficulty at all. it's due to tbe ledge. MRS. BGGLISTOI-I will adait. tbougb. that it will be like a tunnel. livinl back in a. You're loinl to be looking in tbis IUY's back yard. and tbis IUY's back yard. MR. 'URIIR-Well. lets 80lve tbe one issue rigbt· now? Do we all agree tbat it bas to be re-advertised? HRS. BGGLBSTOI-I do. MR. TURIBR-Tben lets aake a aotion tbat it bas to be re-advertised rilbt now. and then they won't be chasinl down here toaorrow night. MRS. IGGLBSTOI-Is tbat Hr. Reba's ai8take or ours? MRS. RUTHSCHILD-Well. I tbink it's bis. because on bis application. I aean. I didn't see it. because I looked at the application. then when I went to review tbe application. I started to. Here it is. see. 19 inches. So tbat wasn't part of the syntax. HR. 'URIIR-I scaled that all out last night. and I've lot it on ay aap boae. It's 176 feet froa here to there. and I spotted this right away. and I was going to question her about it. and she already picked it UP. and I checked these aeasureaents here. to see if tbey were rilht. MR. !URISR-All rigbt. We'll aake a aotion. tJO'IO. I. .II8P~ !'O ..a... VAR'[A-,C. 110. 24-1993 JOS.PH W. 8HAY NARY CAROLD SHAY !'HA!' 'lIIB APPLICA!'IO. BB U-ADVlla!'I8BD. Introduced by Theodore Turner who aoved for its adoption. seconded by rred Carvin. Based on infora.tion furnisbed to this Board tonigbt. in respect to the side line setbacks on the west side property line (violation exist. of 19 incb.s). Duly adopted this 27th day of April. 1993. by the following vote. AYBS. Hr. Philo. Hr. Carvin. Hr.. Bggleston. Hr. Turner 10.S. 101. ABS.IT. Hr. Karpeles. Hr. Thoa.s MR. TURIBR-Will you notify hia toaorrow? MRS. RUTHSCHILD-Yes. MRS. BGGLBSTOI-All right. low what are we doiag on Rourke? MR. !URMBR-Rourke i. the lot width. MRS. IGGLBSTOM-However. we .et a precedent bere. HR. PHILO-What i. it? MRS. IGGLIS!OI-The ...e taÜng. they didn't advertise it rilbt. Who'. error was that? HRS. RUTHSCHILD-I think tbat was aine. MRS. IGGLISTOI-Thi. was one we turned down twice. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-Well. it waa a different application. - 49 - --------,.". --....". HR. 'fURIIR-It's a different application now. OS. BGGLBS'fOI-But tbey've already been b.for. us twice. and we told tbe. no. Rourke. on Glen Lake. MR. CARVII-I bad a probl.. witb tbat on.. .yself. MRS. BGGLIS'fOI-Y.s. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-He's r.duc.d tb. size of. MR. TURIIR-Yes. H.'s co.e down substantially. MR. PHILO-Half. MRS. RU'fHSCHILD-'f.n f..t. HR. TURMIR-I bop. b. co..s with .l.vations. so.. drawings of the house and soae elevations. because we r.quested tbat tbe last ti... and I'd like to see th.. again tbis ti... MRS. RUTHSCHILD-Okay. HRS, BGGLISTOM-W.r. you on her.. r....b.r. sh. liv.d in tbe City of Gl.ns ralls. and she wanted to .ove up to tbe ca.p. Sbe wanted to .ake it into a 3.... and so..thing square foot on a s.all lot at Glen Lake. b.cause she wanted to bring everytbing witb ber. Maybe it was before your ti.e. rred. HR. TURMIR-Do you guys bave a copy of r.visions. cbanges in tbe variance rules. for tb. area varianc.? 'fo..y. you don't bave tbat. do you? This right beret cbange in tbe variance rules. or revisions? MR. PHILO-Io. MR. TURMIR-Can you g.t bi. a copy of tbat? This beca.e effective in July of 1992. Tbat's tbe new rules for granting area variances. Tbis was a..nd.d in July 1992. by the State Legislature. MRS. IGGLESTOI-So what bappened with the Bed & Breakfast? MR. 'fURIIR-It's .y understanding tbat what happened last night at the Town Board .eeting. the Rudolphs and the Oudekerks ca.e. and Mrs. Rudolph. tb.re's a letter right th.re. rred's got it. proposing tbat Bed & Breakfast's should be allowed on arterials. higbways. MR. PHILO-Wbat bave they got the Zoning Board for. then? MR. 'fURMBR-So last night. the Town Board. I think. agreed. in essence. to have Ji. draw up so.. language to put in allowing that use to be on an art.rial highway. Mow they are allowed. if you look at your Ordinance. th.y are allow.d in Land Cons.rvation and rural use areas. Th.y're allow.d in RR-3 and RR-5. and .ost of the. are all on art. rial highways anyway. So I think they're just duplicating things that don't really apply. because .y co...nt would bave been Corinth Road is an arterial highway. and you're gOing to put the. on Corinth Road. on Main Stre.t? MRS. IGGLBS'fOM-It's just like they're r.zoning all this stuff. MR. TURIIR-That's just what they're doing. These p.ople co.e and g.t a varianc.. or co.. to g.t an application. 'fh.n we have another letter there for a rezoning requ.st for the Town Board to be lead ag.ncy. in tåe .atter of Stan Juckett, that we denied a variance to. on his pi.ce of property on Ridge Road. right next to Conklins. that little whit. house. 'fh.y're going to rezone that to ..ighborhood Co..ercial. - se - .........- ...... .._---~ - ----- " -- HR. PHILO-Tbat is asba.e. HR. TURR.R-I .ean, anybody co.es up bere and pleads their case, and the Town Board just takes it and 9ives it to tbe.. They don't consult anybody or anytbin9. HR. PHILO-Wbat about tbat Stan Juckett? HR. TURRBI-Tbe Town Board is 90in9 to rezone the property. I'. not speakin9,ersonalities. All I'. sayin9 is tbat tbey're tearin9 tbe Zonin9 Ordinance ri9bt apart. On .otion .eetin9 was adjourned. RBSPECTrULLY SUBMITTED, Tbeodore Turner, Cbair.an - 51 -