1994-03-17 SP
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ORIGINAL
QUEENSBURY ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
SPECIAL MEETING
MARCH 17TH. 1994
Use Variance No. 111-1993
Harris Bay Yacht Club, Inc.
1.
THESE ARE NOT OFFICIALLY ADOPTED MINUTES AND ARE SUBJECT TO BOARD
AND STAFF REVISIONS. REVISIONS WILL APPEAR ON THE FOLLOWING MONTHS
MINUTES (IF ANY) AND WILL STATE SUCH APPROVAL OF SAID MINUTES.
QUEEBSBURY ZOBIBG BOARD OF APPEALS
SPECIAL HEETIBG
MARCH 17TH. 1994
7:30 P.H.
HBHBERS PRESEBT
THEODORE TURNER, CHAIRMAN
LINDA HAUSER, SECRETARY
FRED CARVIN
ANTHONY MARESCO
DAVID MENTER
CHRIS THOMAS
ROBERT KARPELES
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR-JAMES MARTIN
PLABRER-SUSAN CIPPERLY
TOWB ATTORBEY-PAUL DUSEK
STEBOGRAPHBR-MARIA GAGLIARDI
MR. DUSEK-Some of you are new since some of the really heavy duty
decisions this Board has had to make. Back awhile ago. the Board
was faced with a very complicated case involving the Parillo boat
launch up on Lake George. Fred was here. Ted was here.
MR. THOMAS-I was here for the second time.
MR. DUSEK-Okay, and, Bob, didn't you come in on the tail end of
that, or something?
MR. KARPELES-I don't believe so.
MR. DUSEK-Well, it was a very complicated type of case, and it was
probably what I consider one of the best examples of what this
Board is frequently faced with, in terms of these very complicated
cases where you have to really get a sound grip on the law, and
then seek to apply the law to the facts, and it was also, I
thought, a good case, because what it did was show that when you do
that, when you really take a good hard look at the law, and you
take a good hard look at the facts and you analyze them and you
talk about them, and you make a well thought out motion, the courts
are going to pay attention to that, and in that case, of course,
they upheld (lost word) on the decision that was made, and you've
had a couple of those type of decisions where I'm happy to say that
the court looks at that, because that's what they're looking for.
They're looking for you, they understand that sometimes, you're not
going to always be perfect on the law, and in those cases,
obviously, they will overturn you, but when you really, when you're
on the money, as far as the law's concerned, I mean, you evaluate
the facts, and you make the judgement call on the facts, for the
most part, they're going to honor that. Your Board is the first
one in line, and they're looking towards you and your expertise in
that regard. The reason why I start off with (lost word) because
the case that you're faced with again tonight, Harris Bay Yacht
Club, is one of those cases that's going to require, I think, some
conversation and some thought, and you mayor may not want to make
a decision tonight, after you've gone through the proceedings and
you've heard anybody else that you've got left to hear. I don't
know how much more. I guess the public hearing, as I understand
it, was left open, but it depends on how much more you're going to
hear and how much time you'll have to discuss this, but you're not
pressed, and that's the first, I guess, point I want to make. You
should all be aware of the fact, you're not pressed to make a
decision tonight. If after you've talked about it for a while, you
want to just go home and think about it and come back and meet
again, either at your next regular meeting or if you want to call
a special meeting, that's entirely up to this Board to do that.
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Wi th that being said. what I thought I'd like to do tonight is
that. I'm not so much interested in getting the facts with you.
because I think you're probably aware of what the facts are up
there. in reviewing the paperwork that was submitted to you. and
certainly the applicant can fill you in more on the facts. What
I'm interested in doing is just going over the legal points with
you as your Counsel to the Board. so that you can be better
prepared on the law. perhaps. so that when you are evaluating the
law and the facts. you can hopefully reach a decision that you feel
comfortable with. I tried to explain to you. in a letter dated
February 23rd. what I found in terms of doing some research on your
behalf on this topic. and what I found. basically. was this. that
you have. of course. three variances that they've asked for. Two
of them are standard stuff that you do routine run of the mill.
So. I didn't bother to get into that. but one of them deals with a
Use Variance request. and in connection with that request. I think
that the first consideration that the Board has to make is. first
of all. whether or not a Use Variance is needed. That. to me. is
the Number One question. and the reason why I say that is because
this is what we call a nonconforming use up there on the property.
It means if the property has been zoned one thing. which I think.
Jim. is that residential up there?
MR. MARTIN-Yes. It's a Waterfront Residential and Land
Conservation. It's a combination of that.
MR. DUSEK-And under those particular zones. if you were to go
through your book. you would find that a marina is not an allowed
use.
MR. MARTIN-And as a matter of fact. a marina is not allowed
anywhere in the Town.
MR. TURNER-Any place in Town.
MR. DUSEK-Well. we know it's not allowed there. So. we know right
away. of course. that what we have up there. then. is not allowed
under the Zoning Ordinance. So we know we're operating under that
one little Section of the Zoning Ordinance that's 179-79. which
basically controls nonconforming uses. and the first thing. this is
as an aside. of course. and I know the more experienced members of
the Board already know this. and it's probably a repeat of some of
this. but maybe some of the newer members are not as familiar with
it. You have to understand the concept of zoning. and that is. if
they zone an area Waterfront Residential. or Land Conservation. and
they allow certain uses in that area. basically. if the planners
had it their way. it would be like that today. and everything that
was there that's not consistent would be erased. That would the
planners dream come true in bUilding a community. if they could
eliminate. right. Jim. eliminate all this stuff. they'd be more
than happy. They'd have the perfect community. They'd have it
designed just the way they have it. The problem we have. though.
is ever since zoning came about in this Country. the courts have
recognized and the legislators have recognized that you can't do
that to people. If somebody's had a marina there for endless
numbers of years. you just can't come in and say. you can't have
one there tomorrow. because they have vested rights. We have
property rights. They've paid money. They've earned stuff. and we
respect that in this Country. So we call it vested rights. and
that's what happened up here. We rezoned it. These people have
vested rights. So. with that in mind. then. you say. okay. well.
what's the big deal then? All right. So they have a right to stay
there. That's the second point I want to make. and that is. the
laws. although recognized in this right. are very harsh on this
right. The theory is. not to give it an inch. and hopefully it'll
go away eventually and the property will be zoned as you want it to
be. residential. So whenever you have a nonconforming use. then.
they have a very. you're trying to keep it very confined. and
you're basically hoping that it'll go out of business some day. and
it'll be residential. but you don't want to force it out of
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business. obviously. because you can't. and they also have. because
they have vested rights. you want to respect that. and you don't
want to infringe upon those rights. so when the laws are written.
and you'll see it in our own status. what they say is the
nonconforming use can continue. which is consistent with what I've
just said to you. However. they can't enlarge it. They can't
extend it. they can't increase it. So they're basically putting a
stop on this thing. because. consistent here. again. with what I
just said. we don't want to see these things happen. We're hoping
that. maybe. the plan will be as zoned. and that's one of the
reasons why. later on in the Chapter too. you'll see there's an 18
month provision. If they stop using the nonconforming use for 18
months. they've lost the right completely. and the courts have
upheld this type of thing. to try to get the land zoned the way the
Town wants it. So. understanding that. as you go into this. then.
you have to say to yourself. okay. if that's the case. anything
that they do on that property. just about. as Jim reacted to it.
he's going to be very careful. because he's going to think. well.
if they want to add something. maybe they're going to need a
variance because it's an expansion. or an increase. or something
that they're not supposed to be doing up there. So therefore he's
steered it right into your court. as far as these different uses.
and of course immediately. just based upon what we've been talking
about. you might say. well. they're adding a dock and they're
adding a porch and they're putting in a parking lot. then they must
be increasing the area they're using. and therefore they must be
unlawfully expanding that use. not unlawfully. because they haven't
done it yet. but what they want to do is not consistent with our
restrictions. That would be. I think. his initial reaction. just
based on what I've told you. However. the courts. though. haven't
made it quite that easy. They have said. well. all right. you have
nonconforming uses and you can't increase them and you can't
restrict them and you can't increase them. but. on the other hand.
sometimes we think that there's a natural expectation that certain
things will be allowed as part of an existing nonconforming use.
So the courts have looked at that and said. well. sometimes we
think that you £An. do certain things that might look like an
expansion. but it's really not. because it's really part of their
vested right of what they had to do. and in this letter I sent to
you. I tried to outline that. in a couple of cases. As an example.
on the second page. down near the bottom. I'm quoting from
Anderson's Treatise on Zoning. and he says. "The courts have
recognized that some uses. by their nature". okay some uses.
basically nonconforming uses. by their nature. "must expand. or
reflect an intention on the part of the landowner to employ
additional land". In other words. what he's doing is he's going
back to the time when the Zoning Ordinance and there was a
nonconforming use. and he's saying. at that moment. there was.
obviously. an intent on the part of the landowner that he would
have certain rights. those are vested rights. and they shouldn't be
taken away from him. just because he has a nonconforming use now.
and he gives you an example. He says. a nonconforming airport was
not unlawfully extended by the construction of a new building on
land wi thin the airport. and what he's saying there is that
everybody obviously knew the configuration of the airport. I'm not
quite sure how big the building was. but when they stuck a building
in the middle of the airport. they're saying. even though that's a
new structure. and you might initially say. well. that's an
increase. he's saying. well. everybody kind of knew that that's an
airport and there would probably be some changes going on. and it's
really not offensive. and it's really a continuation of an expected
right that they would have as a nonconforming use. Then he goes on
and he adds. a floating dock. anchored by pylons. was not a
prohibited extension of a nonconforming marina. In other words.
the marina was there. It was expected that there would be certain
attributes to a marina. and this doesn't violate what was to be
expected in terms of a nonconforming use. Then he goes on again
and says. expansion of a nonconforming orphanage and a home for the
elderly to the remainder of a tract which was situated was not
unlawful. So here's some place where they added new buildings. but
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they're saying, here again, this was to be expected. It was part
of the nonconforming use. Now comes the tricky part, though. Lets
stop for a moment and reflect on the next part, where he says, now
he gives you examples of where they shouldn't be allowed to expand,
and he goes, where expansion of a nonconforming use involves a
physical extension of the use to land not enacted for prohibitive
purpose prior to the enactment of the restrictive Ordinance, the
courts have undertaken a careful examination of the size and
character of the use, and dropping down a little further he goes,
enlargement of a nonconforming parking lot on the land previously
used for parking was held an unlawful extension of a main
nonconforming use served by the parking lot. So here he's saying
there was an area that was used as a parking lot. They tried to
extend it, now, he says, that is a nonconforming use extension, and
that shouldn't be allowed. He also gives an example of a junkyard
occupied two acres of a fourteen acre tract, and he says, well, if
you extend that junkyard onto it, that is a prescribed use. Now I
don't know about you, but as soon as I saw that junkyard extension,
right away flew into my mind that orphanage up above where he says,
well, that isn't an unlawful extension, but down here a junkyard is
an unlawful extension, and I think that what I try to do is look
for what is the difference, all right, and there, again, I think
lies the problem. This is where the thing is very tricky, and
here's where the judgement call of fact comes in, and that you
folks come in, and this is what I wanted to discuss with you, in
talking with you tonight, when you look at these things, I think
you have to look at the character. I think you have to look at the
size. I think you have to look at the type of use that the land is
being currently put to. I think you have to look at the proposed
use. I think you have to look at the impacts. You have to look at
that whole issue and say, is this an extension or is it an
increase, and I think if you do this in a reasonable fashion, your
judgement is going to control. If you're looking in the cases that
I cited, because I tried to do this, look for the magic answer,
you're not going to find it, because it's a judgement call that
lies within you folks. There's no black and white answer here, and
it's going to have to be your interpretation of the Zoning
Ordinance as it is applied to the facts that are before you.
That's why, as I continued to evaluate it myself, I started saying,
well, I wonder if you should take a look at it from the whole
picture, is the whole proposal an extension of a nonconforming use,
or is, should you evaluate the individual projects that they're
doing, the dock, the parking lot. I don't know the answer to that,
all right, because, there again, it's a judgement call that you
have to make. So I think, to summarize, then, what I'm seeing here
is, the first thing you have to do is evaluate, is it a
nonconforming use or isn't it a nonconforming use, and to do that,
extension or enlargement, and to do that, you have to, first of
all, identify, quantify, make sure you understand all of that part
of it, and then you have to ask yourself the question, I think,
first, do we consider it as a whole, or do we divide it up into
pieces? You've got to answer that question, I think, first,
because, if you're going to treat it as a whole, that might get you
the one result. Whereas, if you're going to do it piece by piece,
obviously, you could have different results. You might say the
dock is okay, but the parking lot is not. I'm not trying to
suggest any answers to you. I'm just using that by way of example,
but whereas you've decided as a whole, obviously, that's going to
have a different implication, too. The applicant has presented it
to you as an entire program. He's said, this is what I want to do,
and so if you decide that, on that basis, that's the criteria that
you want to use, treat it as a whole, that's certainly could be
your choice. So once you decide whether you're going to treat it
as a whole or whack it up into pieces, then you'll know, obviously,
you'll go to the next point, and you'll either be doing it piece by
piece, or you'll be treating it as a whole, and that is, is this an
enlargement or increase or an extension. Okay. Now your Zoning
Ordinance unfortunately doesn't define any of those terms. So that
doesn't help you much either. So you're really going to have to
look around at 179-79, kind of look at that Section and try to get
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a feel for the overall Ordinance and then weigh the facts here
against everything that I've just indicated to you. I hope this
helps a little bit. I wanted to take a moment to go over all this.
That's as I see it. and I think it's. like I say. in the end. it's
going to be a judgement call. and I think the applicant's going to
make some arguments to you to. I presume. and you should certainly
listen to him. because. here again. you're going to be evaluating
all of these things in trying to get to. hopefully. the right
answer. as to what you're going to do here. Are there any
questions?
MR. TURNER-All right.
MR. DUSEK-I'll sit over on the side.
MR. TURNER-Okay. Thanks. I think what we ought to do
right up front. whether this is a Use Variance or not.
letter from Mr. O'Donnell. We have a letter from Jim.
them. Lets decide if that's a Use Variance first. and
go on with the meeting.
is decide.
We have a
We'll read
then we'll
MR. DUSEK-Mr. Chairman. are you in the middle of a public hearing
on this particular project. on this Use Variance. or no?
MR. MARTIN-I think you are. You opened it uP. and left it open.
MR. TURNER-We left it open. yes.
MR. DUSEK-You should finish the public hearing before you make any
decisions. That's my only suggestion.
MR. TURNER-You think so? Okay.
MR. CARVIN-Well. that's what 1 was wondering. because I do have a
couple of specific questions. with regards to the Use Variance. I
think what Ted is saying is. we as a Board. do we want to determine
whether we even want to continue the discussion on the Use
Variance. if the Board feels that it is no longer relevant. in
other words. that a Use Variance is not necessary. then just to go
on to the Area Variance.
MR. DUSEK-Right. I understand what you're saying. That makes
sense. but the only suggestion I would have. though. is even before
you did that. I think you still would want to finish the public
hearing at least to get that done. procedurally. so that you've
been correct. procedurally. and the public hearing can address.
obviously. both issues. the need for the use variance. or whether
a use variance is supported. but I would recommend. just so that
you're tight. procedurally. that you get through that step. and
then certainly address the first issue of whether or not a variance
is needed. but I think just mechanically. just to go through the
process. at least on the one. You don't have to go through it on
all the variances. but just on the one. close down the public
hearing. and get that over with.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. So. actually. we have introduced this as a use
variance.
MR. MARTIN-Yes. It's been scheduled and noticed that way.
MR. TURNER-Advertised that way.
MR. CARVIN-So then we would have a public hearing. So any
questions that any of the Board members might have could be
answered at the public hearing.
MR. DUSEK-Sure. You can do this whole thing. discussion. public
hearing. everything. and then after you're done with that. then you
can decide whether or not you need a use variance. and if you feel
you do. then you can go on and evaluate the criteria for the use
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variance.
OLD BUSINESS.
USE VARIANCE NO. 111-1993 TYPE I LC-42A WR-1A CEA HARRIS BAY
YACHT CLUB, IRC. OWRER. SAME AS ABOVE ROUTE 9L, ON LAKE GEORGE
IN ORDER TO URDERTAKE A SITE IMPROVEMENT PLAN AND COMPLY WITH
FEDERAL REGULATIONS, APPLICANT PROPOSES TO EXPAND EXISTING
NONCONFORMING USE BY CONSTRUCTING A DECK INCORPORATIRG A
HANDICAPPED ACCESS RAMP ON THE NORTH SIDE OF ITS CLUBHOUSE. THIS
WILL ENTAIL EXPARSIOR OR REPLACEMENT OF TWO EXISTING DECK AREAS ARD
A STONE SURFACED PICNIC AREA. ADDITIONAL STRUCTURAL AREA ON THE
NORTH SIDE OF THE CLUBHOUSE WILL BE ONE THOUSARD FIVE HUNDRED
SIXTEEN (1,516) SQUARE FEET. AN ADDITION OF TWO HUNDRED SIXTEEN
( 216) SQUARE FEET IS ALSO PROPOSED FOR A PREEXISTING, RONCONFORMING
SHED. A NEW SIX THOUSAND (6,000) GALLON, CONCRETE ABOVE-GROUND
FUEL TARK IS PROPOSED TO REPLACE TWO (2) EXISTING IR-GROUND METAL
TANKS TOTALLING SEVEN THOUSAND ( 7 ,000) GALLORS. A NEW DOUBLE
CONTAIRMERT FUEL LIRE IS PROPOSED TO CONNECT THE NEW FUEL TARK WITH
THE FUELING DOCK. PROPOSED TARK LOCATION IS PARTIALLY OUTSIDE THE
CURRENT USE AREA, AND SET BACK SIX ( 6 ) FEET FROM THE WETLAND
BOUNDARY, REQUIRING AN AREA VARIANCE. A NEW SIX-FOOT HIGH WOODEN
ENCLOSURE MEASURING TWENTY-TWO (22) BY EIGHT (8) FEET IS PROPOSED
TO SCREEN A RECYCLING STATION FROM VIEW. APPLICANT PROPOSES
EXPANSION OF EXISTING GRAVEL AREA TO CREATE SIX (6) ADDITIONAL
PARKING SPACES. EXPANSION INTRUDES INTO WETLAND BUFFER, AND
REQUIRES AR AREA VARIANCE. THE EXISTING SITE DEVELOPMENT IS A
NONCONFORMING USE, AS SECTIOR 179 -13D DOES NOT ALLOW HARIRAS .
SECTION 179-79D REQUIRES THAT ANY NONCONFORMING USE HAY BE
INCREASED ORLY BY VARIANCE. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNIRG) 1/19/93
(DEPT. OF ERV. CONSERVATION) TAX HAP NO. 10-1-1.1 LOT SIZE.
18.16 SECTIOR 179-79D, 179-13D SEQRA TO PLANNING BOARD. DECEMBER
21, 1993 SEQRA. PLANNING BOARD FEBRUARY 22, 1994
BRIAN O'DONNELL. REPRESENTING APPLICANT. PRESENT
MR. TURNER-Okay. Well, then I think the first step is to accept
the SEQRA. and then we'll go on with that.
MOTION TO ACCEPT THE SEORA REVIEW BY THE PLANNING BOARD RESOLUTION
OF DECEMBER 21ST. 1993 FOR LEAD AGENCY STATUS AND THE SEORA
REVIEW WAS DORE FEBRUARY 22ND. 1994 ARD THE RESULT WAS A NEGATIVE
DECLARATION. Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved for its
adoption. seconded by Fred Carvin:
Duly adopted this 17th day of March. 1994. by the following vote:
AYES: Mr. Karpeles. Mr. Carvin. Miss Hauser. Mr. Thomas.
Mr. Maresco. Mr. Menter. Mr. Turner
NOES: NONE
MR. MARTIN-Just to be noted on the record. the public hearing was
opened on all three actions. the use variance. area variance. and
sign variance. and left open.
MR. TURNER-Yes. but there was no comment.
MR. MARTIN-I think we had ~ comment that first night.
MR. TURNER-Yes. but very brief.
MR. MARTIN-Yes.
MR. TURNER-Okay. So. with that in mind. I will. you didn't read
the application. So lets read the application for the Use
Variance. first.
STAFF IRPUT
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Notes from Staff. Use Variance No. 111-1993. Harris Bay Yacht Club.
Inc.. Meeting Date: January 26. 1994 n APPLICART: Harris Bay
Yacht Club. Inc. PROJECT LOCATIOR: Route 9L. on Lake George
PROPOSED ACTIOR: In order to undertake a site improvement plan and
comply with Federal Regulations. applicant proposes to expand
existing nonconforming use by constructing a deck incorporating a
handicapped access ramp on the north side of its clubhouse. This
will entail expansion or replacement of two existing deck areas and
a stone surfaced picnic area. Additional structural area on the
north side of the clubhouse will be approximately one thousand five
hundred sixteen (1.516) square feet. An addition of two hundred
sixteen (216) square feet is also proposed for a preexisting.
nonconforming shed. A new six thousand (6.000) gallon concrete
above-ground fuel tank is proposed to replace two (2) existing in-
ground metal tanks totalling seven thousand (7.000) gallons. A new
double containment fuel line is proposed to connect the new fuel
tank with the fueling dock. Proposed tank location is partially
outside the current use area. and setback six (6) feet from the
wetland boundary. requiring an Area Variance. A new six-foot high
wooden enclosure measuring twenty-two (22) feet by eight (8) feet
is proposed to screen a recycling station from view. Applicant
proposes expansion of existing gravel area to create six (6)
addi tional parking spaces. Expansion intrudes into wetland buffer.
and requires an Area Variance. CORFORHARCE: The existing site
development is a nonconforming use. as Section 179-13D does not
allow marinas. Section 179-79D requires that any nonconforming use
may be increased only by variance. THE FOLLOWIRG ITEHS ARE THE
CRITERIA TO BE USED BY THE BOARD IR GRAJlTIRG USE VARIARCES:
REASORABLE RETURR: As stated in the narrative. Harris Bay Yacht
Club is a preexisting. nonconforming use. a private club for which
ownership of a boat slip is a requirement for membership. In order
to maintain the quality of the facilities and update items such as
the fuel tank. and provide handicapped access. a master plan has
been drawn up. Trying to market the property for some other use in
order to satisfy the requirements for a Use Variance is really not
an option. As stated in the narrative. there are no permitted uses
which would allow HBYC to generate funds necessary to pay their
current level of taxes. URIQUERESS: Marinas. in general. have a
unique status. as they are not allowed in any zone in the Town of
Queensbury. so expansion of facilities by any marina would require
a Use Variance. Harris Bay Yacht Club appears to be the only
marina in an LC-42A zone. which means greater limitations. in some
respects. such as setbacks and permeability. In fact. the parcel
appears to be one of only two north of Route 9L that is zoned LC-
42A. the majority of the land in the area is zoned WR-1A. with
minor amounts of Neighborhood Commercial areas. CHARACTER OF THE
REIGHBORHOOD: If granted. this Use Variance would not alter the
essential character of the neighborhood. This is an existing use.
and the proposed actions would have to be considered an improvement
over the existing situation and an asset to the neighborhood.
SELF-CREATED HARDSHIP: The existence of the marina prior to zoning
would not appear to constitute a self-created hardship. nor would
the requirement to provide handicapped access. or the attempt to
upgrade the fuel storage system. HIHIHUH VARIAJlCE: The expansion
of the deck and incorporation of handicapped access into it appears
to be reasonable. considering the space requirements for such use.
It appears the fuel tank could be sited further from the wetland.
and the additional parking area could be addressed differently.
possibly with a variance for fewer spaces. These two items are
addressed in the Area Variance application being reviewed
concurrently. PARCEL HISTORY: Previous permits and reviews for
this site include: Siqn Variance No. 168: To erect a sign 36 feet
from the front property line in a R-3 zone (7/15/70). Special
Permit No. 22: Boat storage facility on parcel south of Route 9
(10/21/70) Variance No. 642: To place an addition 104 ft. by 60
ft. on an existing boat marina storage building. Special Permit
No. 88: To replace Clubhouse and Deck with new Clubhouse and Decks
(2/20/80) Site Plan No. 24-91: Installation of lights. dumpster
enclosures. replacement of precast boat launch ramp (9/26/91)
STAFF COHHERTS ARD COHCERRS: This type of application. where a use
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already exists, does not fit readily into the criteria required for
granting of a Use Variance, though the code requires one. The
intent of the application is clearly to maintain and upgrade the
site. This project has to undergo review under site plan, wetlands
permits, DEC, APA, and possibly more. It seems that concerns with
the site, wetlands, shoreline amendment, etc. will be scrutinized
thoroughly if the initial go ahead is given via the Use Variance."
MISS HAUSER-And in a meeting of the Warren County Planning Board,
held on the 8th of December, 1993, an application for the raised
waterfront walkway along the shore, a raised wood deck on the north
side of the clubhouse, existing stockade fencing will be removed
and the vacuum tank. ice machine and vending machines will be
relocated to an addition to the existing shed. the Warren County
Planning Board approved this application, and also they approved
the Use Variance and Sign Variance as presented by Attorney Brian
J. O'Donnell. and that was on December 8th, 1993.
MR. TURNER-Read that letter right there.
MISS HAUSER-Okay. On January 3rd. 1994, there was a letter sent to
Jim Martin, regarding the Harris Bay Yacht Club, Inc., from Rowley,
Forrest, O'Donnell. and Hite. It says. "Dear Mr. Martin: I am
wri ting in response to your letter of December 9, 1993. As you
know, Harris Bay disagrees with your initial assessment that a Use
Variance is required to undertake the work envisioned by the
capital improvement project, which we have discussed with you. The
purpose of this letter is to ask you to reconsider your initial
position and I ask that you submit copies of this letter to the
members of the Zoning Board at the time they are considering our
pending applications. As I understand it, you initially felt that
a Use Variance would be required in order to perform the decking
work proposed for the clubhouse and the extension of the storage
shed at C-Dock. As far as I know. you did not feel that any other
portion of the proposed work would require a Use Variance. In your
December 9,1993 letter you state that '...a Use Variance is needed
for the expansion of the Harris Bay Yacht Club Marina on Route
9L. . .' and you cite 5179-79 (D) of the Zoning Ordinance as the
authority for your position. 'Expansion' is a term of art defined
in 5179-7 of the Zoning Ordinance as 'any growth of activity which
requires the enlargeaent of facilities. including buildings,
parking spaces, storage yards or any other facilities which are
required to acco..odate such growth.' (emphasis added) In the
addition the Town Law is the source of authority for the enactment
of the Town of Queensbury' s Zoning Ordinance and the Zoning
Ordinance must, of course, be consistent with the Town Law. N.Y.
Town Law 5267(1)(a) defines 'Use Variance as ...the authorization
by the Zoning Board of Appeals for the use of land for a purpose
which is otherwise not allowed or is prohibited by the applicable
zoning regulations.' Neither the decking work on the clubhouse nor
the extension of the C-Dock storage shed falls within these
definitions. There are two hundred seventy-one (271) memberships
at Harris Bay. There never will be anymore. The capital
improvement project does not involve any change of 'purpose'. All
the functions performed at Harris Bay are legal pre-existing non-
conforming uses which will continue as they currently exist whether
or not the capital improvement program can be implemented. There
is no 'growth of activity' at Harris Bay and neither the clubhouse
decking nor the C-Dock shed are being enlarged to accommodate
growth. The clubhouse decking will permit handicapped access and
tie together the existing porches and decks so that there is a
connected hard surface access to three of the clubhouse doors. It
will also provide a sitting area with cover from the sun
immediately above what is currently the stone barbecue area. The
extension of the C-Dock storage shed will allow consolidation and
screening of the pay phone and vending machines which currently
reside on the existing clubhouse decks. Section 179-7 of the
Zoning Ordinance distinguishes between the terms 'use' and
'structure'. Under the Ordinance. the enlargement or extension of
a structure is not synonymous with the term ' increase in non-
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conforming use' and should not be treated as such. It is Harris
Bay's position that the extension of the C-Dock shed (which is an
allowable accessory use under S179-13[D][2][b] and the decking work
on the clubhouse falls under S179-79(E) of the Zoning Ordinance.
In addition, it is the position of Harris Bay that the decking work
on the clubhouse falls within the exception to site plan approval
under S179-79(F). While there are certainly setback requirements
that will necessitate an Area Variance, there is nothing in the
proposal which will necessitate a Use Variance and Harris Bay
requests the Zoning Board to so find. I have spoken by phone with
James Hotaling, the APA staff member who will be responsible for
reviewing the Town's determination on Harris Bay's Variance
Application. Mr. Hotaling told me that his work would essentially
consist of reviewing the record before the Zoning Board of Appeals
to see that it followed the statutory criteria of the Town Law
(S267-B). He also told me that the APA would be likely to overturn
the Town's determination only if there was an insufficient record
or if on the record it appeared that the Zoning Board had not
followed the statutory criteria. Accordingly, I am enclosing with
this letter a set of proposed Findings of Fact and Conclusions of
Law which Harris Bay requests the Zoning Board to find. Very truly
yours, Rowley, Forrest, O'Donnell & Hite P.C. By Brian J.
O'Donnell" "Findinqs of Fact and Conclusions of Law 1. Harris
Bay Yacht Club, Inc. (HBYC) is a New York Type A Not-For-Profit
Corporation owned by its members. 2. There are two hundred
seventy-one (271) memberships at HBYC each corresponding to a
specific docking slip. 3. HBYC operates a marina consisting of
two hundred seventy-one (271) docking slips and one (1) service
slip, storage facilities, a ship's store, launching and hauling
facili ties, boat repair facilities, fuel storage and sales and
pump-out facilities. This use predates the Town of Queensbury's
Zoning Ordinance. 4. There are currently on-site a pay phone, ice
machine and vending machines now located on eXisting porches or
decks of HBYC clubhouse. 5. HBYC is situated on two parcels of
land totaling approximately 43.7 acres of land. The larger parcel
(25.5 acres) is undeveloped, except for HBYC sewage disposal system
and no changes are proposed. All of the docks, club facilities,
parking areas and boat storage facilities are located on the second
parcel (18.16 acres). 6. The 18. 16 acre site is divided into
three sections by Route 9L and Lake George. The three sections
are: a 4.4 acre undeveloped section west of the clubhouse area, a
10.6 acre section south of the clubhouse area separated by Route 9L
used for storage and overflow parking and the 3.2 acre clubhouse
section which is the portion of the site where all variance
requests and most of the proposed improvements will occur. 7. The
existing conditions plan submitted with HBYC's application shows
the site as surveyed on September 10, 1993. The clubhouse is a log
building on a pile foundation. A ship's store, restrooms and
showers and a club room are located on the first floor and offices
for the manager and secretary/bookkeeper are located on the second
floor. The proposed architectural renovations will result in no
increased store and a decrease in the office area because the
second floor is being removed above the existing store area. 8.
The majority of the existing site is utilized for parking during
the summer season and boat storage during the winter. The parking
area is crushed stone surface and currently provides approximately
125 spaces. Additional overflow parking is located across Route
9L. There are no permanent parking lines on the parking lot. The
existing parking area is located within 5' of the shoreline and is
within the mean high water line in some areas. There are 5 dock
entries which connect to the main dock walkways. There are no
pedestrian walks on the site and pedestrians use the crushed stone
parking area. A barbecue and picnic area of approximately 2,000 sf
is located on the north side of the clubhouse. The surface of this
area is round #2 stone contained by railroad tie edging. There is
a concrete boat launch and crane platform used to launch and haul
boats. There is no public day launching at the Club. The launch
facilities are used for spring launching of members' boats, fall
haul-out of members' boats, haul-out and launching for service
(primarily for members and other boats stored at HBYC mainly during
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winter) and occasional launching of large boats for dealers or
other marina facilities on the lake. A small shed is located at
the shoreline next to the launch area. This shed houses the
electrical distribution equipment and a storage area for launching
and dock equipment. There are two wood fence enclosures that house
dumpsters. The fenced area at the front of the clubhouse also
encloses the sewage pumpout vacuum tank, the portable toilet
cleaning station and an ice machine. Two underground fuel tanks
(3,000 gal. and 4,000 gal.) are located in the parking area covered
by an earth mound because of the high water table. The tanks are
single wall steel tanks registered with DEC and currently comply
with bulk fuel storage regulations and are regularly pressure
tested. The fuel dispenser is located on the end of C-Dock,
approximately 250 feet from the shore. 9. HBYC has submitted a
Master Plan under which it proposes to perform the following
improvements over a period of years. (a) A waterfront walkway is
proposed along the shore. The walkway will be crushed stone
(rubble) surface edged with 6 x 6 pressure treated timbers. The
walkway will connect the dock entrances to the clubhouse and
parking area. The walkway will be constructed in an area currently
occupied by parking. The parking lot will be moved back from the
lake by 5 to 10 feet to allow room for the walkway. The walkway
will include benches, low 3' high walk lights, a yardarm, a
barbecue area, dock entrances with enclosures for trash/recyclables
and dock carts and landscaped areas with small trees, shrubs and
groundcover. The shoreline side of the walkway will be existing
natural vegetation. The new walkway will be constructed with the
existing parking surface as a base to raise the walkway to
elevation 320.8, slightly above the mean high water level. The
raised walkway will provide a barrier between the parking lot and
the lake, will reduce flooding of the parking area during normal
high water levels. (b) A raised wood deck is proposed on the
north side of the clubhouse replacing the stone surface barbecue
area and connecting three existing porches or decks. The deck will
provide a handicapped ramp access to the parking area. The deck
will provide a hard surface from the access ramp to the three main
entrances to the clubhouse. The portion of the deck directly
behind the club room will be covered with a canvass awning for
protection from weather. (c) The eXisting stockade wood fencing
will be removed and the vacuum tank, ice machine and vending
machines will be relocated from the front of the clubhouse. Plant
beds separated from the parking area by wood edging will be
installed in this area facing the road and will be landscaped. New
pedestrian height (12') lighting fixtures to match the walkway
bollards will be installed to light the entrances and to accent the
clubhouse. (d) An addition to the existing shed at C-Dock is
proposed that will house the ice machine, vending machines and
telephones. This will help minimize the visual clutter and protect
the machines from weather. (e) The existing fuel tanks will be
removed and a new 6,000 gallon above ground tank is proposed to be
located at the west end of the parking area. This tank will be
concrete with an inner steel tank complying with current DEC and
EPA regulations. The tank will be approximately 10' high by 10'
wide by 15' long. The tank will be located on a concrete pad away
from the building and active use areas. Planting will be installed
to screen the tank from the road. New underground fuel lines will
be installed to the fuel dock. (f) One additional parking lot
light is proposed at the west end of the parking area for security
and safety. Two high pressure sodium vapor lights mounted at 20'
height to match the existing lights at the east side of the parking
lot are proposed. The lights will be directed downward to prevent
glare on Route 9L. (g) The parking area will be reconfigured as
indicated on the Plan to provide 124 parking spaces including 5
handicapped spaces. The parking lot will be resurfaced with 2 to
3 inches of crushed stone (rubble) and the edge defined with timber
curbing. Three driveways exist from the clubhouse parcel onto
Route 9L and no modifications to the driveways are proposed. HBYC
has a Lease Agreement with NYS Department of Transportation for
parking and the storage of boats within the Right of Way. The area
where the eXisting fuel tanks are located will be repaired and
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incorporated into the parking area. (h) The existing free
standing identification sign located on the gas tank mound will be
removed and a building mounted sign will be located on the
clubhouse. (i) A new wood fence enclosure 6' high will be
constructed to screen the recycling dumpster from Route 9L and will
be accessible from the back. It will be located next to and match
the existing enclosure on the east of the parking lot. 10.
Because of the size and shape of the portion of HBYC's parcel on
the north side of Route 9L. there are overlapping setback
requirements of front yards. rear yards. side yards. wetlands and
shoreline. 11. The proposed double containment fuel storage tank
proposed by HBYC is safer than the existing underground storage
tanks. 12. The consolidation and enclosure of ice and vending
machines is the aesthetically preferable to the existing dispersed
unscreened machines. 13. Handicapped access to multiple doors of
the clubhouse is desirable and handicapped access would be required
if the clubhouse were built under the current code. 14. The other
modifications proposed by HBYC will aesthetically enhance the site.
improve safety by improving lighting for pedestrians and vehicles
on site. will improve approaches to the docks and will protect the
lake by moving the parking area back from the shoreline.
CO.CLUSIONS OF LAW 1. No Use Variance is required because none of
the proposals made by HBYC involves any increase in or change of
the existing legal non-conforming use of the property. 2. An Area
Variance from setback requirements is required for the relocation
of the fuel storage tank. the extension of the C-Dock storage shed
and the decking for the clubhouse. 3. The variance setback
requirements on this particular site create practical difficulties
for HBYC in the utilization of its property and the benefits to
HBYC if the variance is granted are relatively high when compared
to the criteria of N.Y. Town Law S267-b(3) of detriment to the
heal th. safety and welfare of the neighborhood or community. 4.
The removal of the existing underground fuel storage tanks and
relocation of a new double containment above ground storage tank
out of the trafficked and parking area will not produce any
undesirable change in the character of the neighborhood or create
a detriment to nearby properties. In fact. because of the
increased safety of the double containment tank and its placement
above ground where it may be observed and inspected. it will have
a positive impact on the neighborhood and surrounding properties.
5. HBYC has no feasible al ternati ve to the grant of an Area
Variance. Al though the tank could be replaced at its present
location that is not feasible under HBYC's Master Plan since the
parking area will be moved back away from the shoreline. 6. The
variance requested is not substantial. Although HBYC proposes to
move its fuel storage tanks from eighty-eight feet (88') from the
wetlands to six feet (6') from the wetlands. the Board concludes
that the change is not substantial because of the increase in
safety afforded by an above ground double containment tank located
outside the trafficked and parking area. 7. The proposed variance
will have no adverse effect or impact on the physical or
environmental conditions in the neighborhood or district and
because of the enhanced safety of the proposed replacement tank.
the effect will be positive. 8. The difficulties in relocating
the tank are not self-created. They are the result of the shape of
HBYC's property and the existence of the various setbacks
applicable to the site. 9. The variance sought by HBYC is the
minimum variance necessary and adequate to relocate the tank and
protect the character of the neighborhood and health and safety and
welfare of the community. 10. The extension of the C-Dock shed
proposed by HBYC will not produce any undesirable change in the
character of neighborhood or a detriment to surrounding properties
because it will consolidate and screen vending machines which are
currently dispersed on the decks of the HBYC clubhouse. 11. There
is no feasible method for accomplishing this function other than
the variance sought. It is not feasible to move the machines
inside the clubhouse because they would be inaccessible to the
members when the clubhouse is closed. Consolidation of the vending
machines anywhere else on the site wi thin the vicinity of the
clubhouse would require a variance. 12. The variance is not
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substantial. The existing C-Dock shed is located at the shoreline
and the proposed addition would extend away from the shoreline into
what is currently parking lot. 13. The proposed variance will not
have any adverse effect or impact on the physical or environmental
conditions in the neighborhood. 14. The difficulties in
relocating and screening the telephones and vending machines are
not self-created. They are the result of the shape of HBYC' s
property and the existence of various setbacks applicable to the
site. 15. The variance sought by HBYC is the minimum necessary to
consolidate and screen the vending machine and protect the
character of the neighborhood and the health. safety and welfare of
the community. 16. The decking which HBYC proposes for its
clubhouse will not produce an undesirable change in the character
of the neighborhood or a detriment to nearby properties. Its
effect will be entirely limited to HBYC's site and will consist of
tieing together three (3) existing decks and porches and providing
hard surfaced handicapped access to three (3) entrances to HBYC's
clubhouse. 17. There is no feasible alternative to the variance
sought by HBYC. The provision of a handicapped access ramp to any
entrance of the clubhouse would require a variance of some setback
requirement. 18. The variance by HBYC is not substantial.
Although the deck which is proposed would go to the existing mean
high water mark. it is located immediately above a stone picnic
area which currently extends to the mean high water mark. In
addition. HBYC has proposed as part of its Master Plan to install
a crushed stone walkway between the deck and the shore raised
slightly above the mean high water mark. 19. The proposed
variance will have no adverse effect or impact on the physical or
environmental conditions in the neighborhood. 20. The
difficulties in connecting the clubhouse decks and providing
handicapped access are not self-created. They are the result of
the shape of HBYC' s property and the existence of the various
setbacks applicable to the site. 21. The proposed variance is the
minimum necessary to install the handicapped access and connective
decking and protect the character of the neighborhood and the
heal th. safety and we lfare of the community. 22. The Area
Variance sought by HBYC is approved. 23. A Sign Variance is
required by the substitution of a single building mounted sign for
the free standing sign over the gas mound and the building mounted
sign over the store. 24. There is no adverse impact on the
character of the neighborhood by the substitution of signage
proposed by HBYC. In fact. the proposed signage will result in a
reduction both in number of signs and square footage of signs. The
relocation of the fuel storage tank will necessarily require some
change in signage on the property since HBYC' s current
identification sign is located on top of the gas mound. 25. The
Sign Variance sought by HBYC is granted."
MR. TURNER-Okay. Mr. O'Donnell. do you have anything else to add
to that statement we just read?
MR. O'DONNELL-I do. Mr. Turner. I've got a few things that I'd
like to add. I'd like to talk to you. first. about the existing
conditions at Harris Bay. both in the structure of the operation
itself and the physical plan. I'd like to talk to you a little bit
about the proposal. although what was in my letter and the proposed
findings of facts and conclusions of law pretty well layout what
Harris Bay's position is. I'd like to talk to you about the issue
of whether a Use Variance is required. The Area Variance and Sign
Variance. we agree. are required. The Use Variance. although we
think we'd be entitled to it. if you found it was necessary. we
feel that it's not required and we would prefer you find that it
was not. and finally I'd like to address some comments that have
been submitted in opposition to Harris Bay's proposal by various
members of the public. and I'd also be happy to answer any
questions that any member of the Board has about the project. I'm
going to defer to Jim Miller on the technical aspects of it.
however. Harris Bay Yacht Club is a member owned facility.
Technically. it's not accurate. but it's close enough. You can
think of it as a dockominium. a condominium for docks. There are
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('
271 member docks in Harris Bay, and there's one service for them.
Each one of those docks corresponds to a membership that must be
held by an individual human being. It can't be held by a
corporation or partnership, or anything other than an individual.
Those are all the docks that are ever going to be at Harris Bay.
Those are all the memberships that are every going to be at Harris
Bay. Now, regardless of whether the capital improvement project
goes forward or does not, the same number of people, the same
number of boats, and the same type and extent of activities are
going to continue at Harris Bay, next year as they did last year
and the year before, and the year before that. The existing
conditions, physical plant wise, right now, are pretty much the way
that they've been since the early 1980's. I've got here a couple
of photographs that, we'll start one at each end. They're the same
photograph, blown up in two different ways, to focus on the area
that we're talking about, the improvements. I believe that the
photograph was taken in 1983. I first saw it as part of the
promotional material for Harris Bay going private and becoming a
dockominium. As you can see, there's a parking area there, which
corresponds to the parking area here. On the plans, you'll see
some areas marked edge of crushed stone, within the parking area,
for example, here. The edge of crushed stone does not correspond
wi th the edge of the parking area that's been used since about
1980. The edge of the crushed stone is the result of some
resurfacing of potholes that was done in 1990 and didn't extend out
to the edge of the parking area. Another thing that was mentioned
in the staff's comments is the location of the fuel storage tank
we're proposing is within, now, what is parking lot. It's not off
the parking lot. You can see on the plans, the edge right here,
which is the edge of the existing parking lot, and you can see cars
parked on it right now. I think there's a red and a white car
parked there, in 1983. That's essentially where we're proposing to
put the fuel storage tank. Also, if you'll look on the
photographs, you can see some vending machines on the decks. The
white ice machine, there next to the boat house, is the most easily
visible. Those are the things that we're talking about taking and
putting in a small addition on the C-Dock shed. This shed here is
gray in the picture, and you can see it there at the edge of C-
Dock. On the subject of the fuel storage tank, we're proposing to
put a double containment tank on top of a concrete pad, which will
have curbing at three sides, the open side being the one into the
parking lot, and place spill containment equipment over there. So,
essentially, it's a triple containment. Let me turn, now, to the
issue of the Use Variance. I spoke with Mr. Dusek about this, and
Mr. Martin and I, and Mr. Dusek corresponded about it, and I gather
you've seen all the correspondence. I've taken a look at some of
the same cases that Mr. Dusek is talking to you about, and there
are a couple that really illustrate it pretty well. The case is
told that an expansion is not to be taken quite literally. If
you've got a use which is a prior nonconforming use, and the action
being proposed is within what was contemplated as the original use,
it's not an expansion, so the is told. In fact, there's a case
that says it's constitutionally protected, and that was the case
that Mr. Dusek talked to you about, about the orphanage. There
what they had was an orphanage and elderly care facility on a tract
of land whiqh was later within a single family residential zone.
It was perfectly proper at the time it was built, as Harris Bay was
perfectly proper at the time it was built, and over the years, what
this orphanage started to do was get into elder care, and this
particular case came up when they wanted to construct some detached
residential units for elderly people who were ill but didn't
require nursing home care, and their spouses, and the court there
held that that was really within what was contemplated by the use,
the preexisting nonconforming use, and the court said that is
something that would be constitutionally protected. In this
particularly case, the Zoning Board had given them the Use
Variance, and somebody was challenging, saying they shouldn't have
done that. The end result was, what they did was perfectly proper.
There's another case which talks about the expansion of a quarry.
A man had a piece of property that was about 25 acres in size, and
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he had a quarry on it that was six acres. and someone raised a
stink. as the quarry started to expand out into the site. and the
court took a look at that and they said. no. this is the kind of
thing that you would expect with that type of a use. That's what
quarries do. It's perfectly proper. The airport case that Mr.
Dusek talked to you about. someone had an airport. I believe it was
down on Long Island. They used it for years as an airport. and
what they wanted to do was put an airport building on there.
something that would be used for arrivals and departures. on a
piece of property that had been separated by a fence. although it
was still airport property. The court said. that's the kind of a
thing which is contemplated by this type of a use. It's perfectly
proper. There's another case which sort of outlines a difference.
and you can see two different things in it. There was a lady who
had a beauty shop on the first floor of a rented building. and
wanted to do some renovations and expand up into the second floor.
In the course of doing that. she also added some body toning
equipment. which was not in the beauty shop before. and it was
different from what the beauty shop did before. The court took a
look at that. and they said. you're changing your use. The body
toning equipment is different from what you were doing there
before. You need a use variance for that. The court also said.
but it would be perfectly okay to go up into the second floor.
That is the same thing that was there before. At Harris Bay. this
capital improvements program is not proposing any change in the use
which has been there for years. It's going to be the same next
year as it was last year. and it's going to be the same next year
as last year. whether Harris Bay is permitted to do this
improvement. or whether it's not. It's not proposing to expand
anywhere else on Harris Bay's site. or anywhere off Harris Bay's
site. In fact. when you take a look at it. the two areas that
we're talking about. that Mr. Martin said brought the Use Variance
issue up in the first place. is right here. which is an area
currently used by Harris Bay's parking lot. and right here. which
is an area currently used by Harris Bay as a porch. a deck. and a
deck and a picnic area. It's simply raising and connecting and
allowing us to provide handicapped access to the inside of the
building. At the present time. Harris Bay is renovating the inside
of the building with a building permit from the Town of Queensbury.
One of the things that's being done in there is the installation of
handicapped toilets and showers. There are no more showers or
toilets than there are right now. but the stalls are being modified
to provide handicapped access. There's no way a person in a
wheelchair could get into that building right now. There are steps
at every entrance. The Americans with Disabilities Act requires
that. to the extent it's possible to do so. to provide the same
accommodations for handicapped individuals as for individuals
wi thout handicaps. There's no way that Harris Bay can do that
without coming to you for the Area Variance. and we submit that
that does not require a Use Variance. Any place on this site we
wanted to put a handicapped ramp would violate some setback
requirement or another. and what Harris Bay is proposing to do is
put the access not just to one entrance. but three entrances. Now.
let me turn briefly to respond to some of the comments that have
been submitted in writing to this Board. and what I expect you're
going to hear from other people after I sit down. At the Planning
Board. there was a great deal of discussion about Harris Bay's
septic system. and there is no proposed change in Harris Bay's
septic system whatsoever. except the movement of the vacuum tank.
and the port-a-potty dumping station from here to here. Other than
that. the septic system is going to be exactly as it now is. and
has been. There was a considerable effort to direct the Planning
Board's attention away from the project which Harris Bay has
proposed. and onto whether the septic system is good or bad.
Regardless of what this Board does. Harris Bay is now and always
has been subject to inspection of its septic system. and you can be
quite confident that because of all the comment that's been raised
about the septic system in the course of the Planning Board
meeting. that whether you approve or disapprove the capital
improvement project. Harris Bay is going to get visits this summer
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by septic system inspectors from the Town of Queensbury. probably
from the Lake George Park Commission. They've had visits in the
past. All the evidence which currently exists indicates that
Harris Bay's septic system. while located in a parcel surrounded by
wetlands. is functioning as it is supposed to do. There is not a
single shred of evidence of failure. One man. Mr. Roulier. went
onto the property and took water samples. and tested for the wrong
thing. He tested for something called. total coliform. and came up
with some high numbers. Retests were done by the Park Commission.
for the right thing. fecal coliform. which is a bacteria found in
the intestines of warm blooded animals. from people to sea gulls.
and those tests showed levels below what the Lake George Park
Commission considers acceptable levels. In other words. it's okay.
If there is a problem with the septic system. the people with the
authority to inspect will do so and tell Harris Bay about it.
regardless of what you do here tonight. If there is a problem with
the septic system. Harris Bay will have to deal with it at the
time. If there is no problem with the septic system. as there has
not been in the past. Harris Bay has the right to continue to
function as it is. Some of the other comments that I saw submitted
in letters were claims that the improvements are going to generate
increased use. That simply is not so. The use depends upon the
number of members. The number of members depends upon the number
of slips. and the number of slips is fixed at 271. The proposals
that Harris Bay is making will do things which Harris Bay believes
are entirely possible. It'll get rid of metal single wall
underground fuel storage tanks. and replace it with what I believe
to be a superior storage tank of a smaller size. It'll provide
handicapped access. It will provide a barrier between the parking
and the lake. It will provide landscaping. It will collect and
screen vending machines and dumpsters. and it will raise the grade
across Route 9L. in the area of the boat storage sheds slightly
above the mean high water mark. That's all the project will do.
The project is not going to bring a single person onto Harris Bay's
property who wasn't there last year. or the year before. I'd be
happy to answer any questions that any member of the Board has.
MR. TURNER-Any questions?
MR. THOMAS-The only one that I've got. that I've been thinking
about is. is there any way that the public has access to any of the
facilities of the Harris Bay Yacht Club? For example. can somebody
go into the Clubhouse and buy something. from the public?
MR. O'DONNELL-It's theoretically possible. I can tell you in
practice that it's extremely rare. The store is. essentially. for
the members there and the vast majority of the use is by the
members.
MR. THOMAS-But it's not "open to the public"?
MR. O'DONNELL-If somebody did come into the store and say. I'd like
to buy a sponge or a can of soda or something like that. I'm sure
that they would sell it to them. They wouldn't throw them out. but
it almost never happens.
MR. THOMAS-Okay.
MR. CARVIN-How about your gas sales. is that to the general public
also?
MR. O'DONNELL-Yes. It is.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. Has there been occasion where somebody comes to
the gas pumps and sees your picnic areas and decides to purchase a
lunch and then eat. maybe. on the outside facilities?
MR. O'DONNELL-Not as far as I know.
MR. CARVIN-Is that a conceivable situation. though?
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MR. O'DONNELL-I would think not. and the reason that I would think
not is the gas dock is located out on the end of C-Dock. It's not
on the plans. You might be able to see it in the photograph. No.
You can't see it on the photograph. Where's the other one. You
can see it on here. This is the gas dock right here. It's a
single dock with two sides. You can have a boat pull up on one
side and a boat pull up on the other side. and Harris Bay does not
permi t boats to tie up there. They can be there while they're
getting fueled and pumped out. and once they're finished with that.
they'd have to clear the area. So. no. somebody's not going to
come up. tie up to the gas dock and go in and have a picnic.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. Would you have a feel for what percentage gas
sales are non member related?
MR. O'DONNELL-I don't. There are a fair number of power boats.
There are a lot of power boats at Harris Bay. I happen to have a
sailboat. and I take great delight in getting my six gallons of gas
in front of the power boaters. but there are a lot of power boats
there. and I think the majority of the gas sales are to Harris Bay
members. but a significant amount of gas sales is probably to
people who are not members.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. Well. my question then would lead. you're looking
at reducing the overall gallonage. If memory serves correct. I
think you currently have seven. and you're going to go to six.
okay. Even at a normal use. in other words. expecting no increase
or decrease. you would have to assume that there would be increased
or more frequent refuelings of that tank. Is that a safe
assumption?
MR. O'DONNELL-I think not. and the reason I think not is. I believe
that the amount of fuel that historically gets pumped in a weekend.
and that's when most of your gas sales occur. is below six thousand
gallons. and I believe what currently happens is Harris Bay gets a
fuel delivery once or perhaps twice a week. during the week. when
fuel tank people around.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. but you said you feel that there is a significant
amount of gas that is sold to the general public?
MR. O'DONNELL-Yes.
Bay members. but
significant.
I believe the majority of it is sold to Harris
the amount sold to the public would be
MR. CARVIN-Okay. If you were to lose that public gas sales. for
example. would that have a severe impact upon the financial health
of the Club?
MR. O'DONNELL-It would be real unpleasant. yes.
MR. CARVIN-And I'm assuming that. from your previous comments. that
the store does not represent a significant impact to the Club?
MR. O'DONNELL-No. The store sales have never been significant to
the members or anybody else. It's essentially there as a
convenience.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. The Club building itself. is this a restaurant?
I mean. could somebody go in there and get a dinner or a lunch?
MR. 0' DONNELL-No. There's no restaurant. In this area. right
here. is the store. and it stocks things that you would expect for
a boating place. sponges. line.
MR. CARVIN-Life vests. things like that.
MR. 0' DONNELL-Yes. I think there may be a few life vests and
cleaning supplies. teak oil and things like that. soda. beer.
newspapers. magazines. and I think there may be. there's donuts and
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things of that nature, some food items.
MR. CARVIN-Snack items?
MR. O'DONNELL-Snack items. Correct. In this area here are
bathrooms. There's a ladies room here and a men's room here.
They're going to be reconfigured and moved, basically turned on
their side. but it'll still be in the same general area that it
is. In this area here, is one open room with a few chairs and
tables, easy chairs and coffee table type things.
MR. CARVIN-Okay, but there's no hot grill? There's no hot food.
other than coffee, we'll say.
MR. O'DONNELL-Out here, in the picnic area, stone picnic area.
there are barbecue grills and typically what they're used for is.
somebody buys hotdogs or brings hamburgs from home or something
like that. and they can cook them.
MR. CARVIN-Self-serve, in other words? There's no full time staff
or cook or anything like that?
MR. O'DONNELL-No. You'd have to have something, your picnic lunch
be brought up before you go out. and you could cook it and eat it
on the picnic tables in the picnic area.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. Is there any kind of mechanism to check
membership cards, in other words. access to the Clubhouse?
MR. O'DONNELL-Yes. That's primarily done on access to the parking
lot. particularly in the heavy use weekends in the summer. Only
people with membership stickers are allowed to park over on this
side of the road. Guests are required to park in the overflow area
on the other side of the road. One thing that Harris Bay had a
problem with a few years ago was people coming in and using its
bathrooms, and the way that that problem was solved was they put
locks on the bathrooms, combination locks, and that problem is now
solved, and typically that was late at night. or early in the
morning.
MR. CARVIN-Okay, but there's no formal identification check. say,
like at the Elk's Club, or something like that, where you have to
insert a special key to gain access?
MR. O'DONNELL-No, there isn't.
MR. CARVIN-Okay.
could wander in?
So it is conceivable that the general public
MR. O'DONNELL-It's not that big of a place. It's unlikely.
MR. CARVIN-Are there any plans to put in a hot or restaurant type
of facility there, in other words. to expand it for membership
dances or things like that. if that would be feasible?
MR. O'DONNELL-No. We don't have the room, and I can tell you flat
out. there are no such plans.
MR. CARVIN-Maybe this is way off the track, but I know in some of
the correspondence. that the cost of the average slip, I think
somebody said was anywhere from $10,000 to $40,000. Does that just
buy you the dock? I mean, is there any other privileges that
membership, like with the American Express card, membership has its
privileges?
MR. 0' DONNELL-What do you get for that? There's no American
Express card to go with it. The difference in the dock prices
depend upon the size of the slip, and they differ in length beam
and graft. The bigger they are, the more they cost. In addition
to having the right to use that slip during the season, a member
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Li
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o
has a right to a launch at the beginning of the season, and a haul
and winterization at the end of the season, boat storage on site
over the winter, the right to run for office in the Club, the right
to vote in elections, and the right to use the rest of the
facilities, obviously.
MR. CARVIN-Okay.
MISS HAUSER-What hours is the Clubhouse open?
MR. O'DONNELL-It varies depending upon the time of the year. Right
now, it's closed. During the height of the summer, the Clubhouse,
portions of the Clubhouse, are physically open to allow access to
the bathrooms 24 hours a day. Other times of the year, early
spring, later fall, it would be essentially open during, I think
eight to five or nine to five, somewhere around there.
MR. CARVIN-Regarding your boat storage, are they just member boats
that are stored, or will you store general public boats?
MR. O'DONNELL-Harris Bay stores some boats for people who are not
members there.
MR. CARVIN-Okay.
MR. O'DONNELL-As space permits.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. I know in some of the correspondence that I read
through, it indicated that you also will do launches for other, I
reluctantly use the term, marinas, but other, I guess, if somebody
buys a boat from some boat company, I guess you will provide a
launch?
MR. O'DONNELL-From time to time, there have been a few occasions
over the years where somebody has purchased a large boat that can't
be put in where they're going to store it, for example, if you were
to buy a 30 foot sailboat, I doubt that Yankee Yacht has the
ability to launch that, a 30 foot big steel sailboat. Harris Bay
has the ability to launch that, because it's open here and there's
a crank, and on contract basis, whoever's delivering the boat will
make arrangements and Harris Bay has launched boats on an
occasional basis, over the years.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. Would you consider that to be a significant part
of the funding of the Club?
MR. O'DONNELL-No. The funding from the Club is primarily from the
members themselves, the maintenance fee. There is now a special
assessment to fund the capital improvement program, and it's
offset, to some extent, by sales in the store, which are not very
large in volume, and by gas sales.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. Do you have any idea of what the cost, I know I
think at the Planning Board this situation is going to be spread
over several years. Do you have any rough idea, at this point, of
what your total cost might be?
MR. O'DONNELL-No, we don't, for this reason. Number One, we don't
know what the soft costs are yet, and they've been high, gOing
through the permitting process, and what Harris Bay intends to do
is collect money in the special assessment, and as it gets enough
to do a phase, bid the phase and get the prices there. So we're
not going to have prices until probably 1995, for anything beyond
what's being done in the Clubhouse. I can tell you what's being
done in the Clubhouse is $114,000, and that's internal renovations.
MR. CARVIN-Okay, and I'm assuming that all the slips are currently
bought at this point?
MR. 0' DONNELL-There are about 15 that are not owned by any
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\.
('
'-
individual. Harris Bay still owns them.
typically those with narrower beams.
Those are smaller slips,
MR. CARVIN-Okay, but I guess what I'm leading at is, that would it
be conceivable that once a price is established, that you have
members who may be reluctant or financially incapable of meeting
the assessment, for example? Now they've bought their condo and
all of a sudden you're now laying a bond issue on them that they
have to purchase, and they say, well, why can't we expand our use
of the store or why can't we sell more gas or do more advertising,
or, to compensate for the increase in assessment?
MR. O'DONNELL-I can tell you we've had the capital improvement
assessments on for about a year and a half, Harris Bay has, and
that has not been a problem. Proposals to expand the store really
are not practical, for a couple of reasons. Number One,
historically the store has never been a big money maker. It truly
is a convenience for the members. So if this store were expanded,
it would be a net loss, I would expect, and, Two, in order to
expand the store, Harris Bay would have to go through this process
again, and I'm confident they wouldn't do it.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. So that still leaves your gas, in other words,
you could increase gas sales possibly to the general public, or you
could increase your contract fees to outside launches, or you could
increase the fees to the general public for boat storage.
MR. O'DONNELL-That's possible. I'm not sure how gas sales could be
increased. If someone comes to you for gas, you'd sell them gas.
MR. CARVIN-Okay, but, and, again, I'm not saying that this is in
the plans, but if you have a wonderful picnic area and now you may
say, well, fine, we will allow the general public to use some of
the facilities.
MR. O'DONNELL-They simply can't.
MR. CARVIN-At this point.
MR. O'DONNELL-Where would they put their boat?
MR. CARVIN-You've got 15 open slots.
MR. O'DONNELL-They're rented. The fact that no individual owns
them doesn't mean that they're unoccupied by a boat during the
year. You can't pull up to Harris Bay during the summer with a
boat and put it anywhere, anyone of those slips, as a general
proposi tion. There may be one or two that weren't rented last
year, I'm not sure, but as a general proposition, everyone of
those slips has a boat assigned to it, and in it, or out on the
lake, and likely to come back at any point. It's not a place you
could pull up to with a boat and spend the day.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. Have you given any thought as to how you ~
going to finance it? Is it going to be a bond issue to the
members?
MR. O'DONNELL-It's an assessment. It's levied with the January and
April maintenance payments.
MR. TURNER-Is this going to be phased over seven years? Is that
going to be your request?
MR. O'DONNELL-It's going to be phased over the length of time that
it takes us to complete it, which my best guess is probably five to
seven years.
MR. TURNER-Okay. Any sequence to the construction?
MR. O'DONNELL-We have started working on that, and we'll have that
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firmed up more for the Planning Board. but. yes. In general terms.
we've come up with some areas that we think that's logical to do at
the same time. For example. the entire walkway would be one
project. as opposed to doing this side of it one year. and that
side another year. The fuel storage tank would be another phase.
The decking and stuff like that another. We mayor may not have
enough (lost words). The object of the exercise of the phasing is
to do something and complete it and move on to another physical
area of the site. so that we go through an area once.
MR. DUSEK-Mr. Chairman. while he's looking for that. may I ask a
couple of questions?
MR. TURNER-You sure can.
MR. DUSEK-And if I may. I'd like to put this up. I was sitting
over to the side there with the Town Planning Department. and they
had drawn up a diagram. or this is a diagram that was furnished by
the applicant. but they had drawn on the diagram. in yellow. where
the improvements are to the site. and I just thought that was
extremely helpful. as ~ was sitting there. to try to get a grip on
exactly what is being done and what currently exists. If I
understand the color coding correctly. essentially. what is in pink
here is currently on the site. What is in yellow is what is being
either changed or added to the site. For instance. the gas tank
and mounds to be removed are here in this area right here. are
being moved from here to here. The shed that's being extended is
here. and the addition is being put on here. The building area. I
believe it's the decking area that they want to add. not this right
here. but right around this side here. this area is the proposed
new parking area. which Jim tells me is basically a dirt type area
now. with the edge of gravel being along this line right here. so
you can see what they're going to do here. Down in this area here.
you can see where there's an existing. I'm sorry. existing
dumpster. and then they're now going to put in a recycling area
here. and then what is not colored. as I understand it in talking
to Jim. along through here. this is currently. I guess. a graveled
area. They even park up in through this area. but that's the area
they're going to turn into the walkway. and then down in here is
where they're going to do some filling. The question on parking.
Mr. O'Donnell. you've been here while I've been going over this
with the Board. is that a fair representation of what the project
is at this point?
MR. O'DONNELL-In part. yes. and in part. no. and if you'll hold on
to the map. let me tell you where I disagree. This area right
here. the parking marked in yellow. is area which is now and has
since 1980 been used for parking and boat storage. and if you take
a look at the photograph. you'll see a boat stored over here. and
I think maybe a car parked over here. The edge of the gravel. as
I mentioned earlier. in 1990. Harris Bay did some work filling
potholes that had developed throughout the parking lot. and did not
gravel the entire parking lot. The gravel stopped here. and that's
what the surveyor picked up. but this is not an expansion of the
parking area. Other than that's. it's correct. This area here.
under what's shown as awning. is currently the stone picnic area.
Other than that. yes. you're correct.
MR. DUSEK-I thought this was important to have in the records.
because I think it's helpful. first of all. Also. with Mr.
O'Donnell's confirmation. then. we understand. I think. a little
bit better exactly what the nature of the improvements are. in the
event that you have any questions on the particular improvements
and the effects of those improvements. because like right here. I
was confused. for instance. just on this parking area. that Mr.
O'Donnell indicated. apparently. they used in some fashion in the
past. So I think these are all things that the Board would want to
consider.
MR. MENTER-It sounds as though the difference in the parking area
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is the difference between partial gravel coating and perhaps an
area that is more grassy, but in either case, used as parking.
MR. O'DONNELL-It's basically dirt. This entire, during the summer
months, on a sunny weekend, this entire area here, right to the
edge of vegetation, is filled with cars, and has been since 1980,
and we've now found what we were initially thinking, or Harris
Bay's been thinking about as phasing. The Clubhouse area and the
recycling dumpsters are tentatively scheduled for Phase I. The
Clubhouse internal renovations are going on now. Phase II, I mis-
spoke before. is walkway and landscaping, and the addition to the
C-Dock shed. Phase III would be walkway in this direction. Phase
IV is the modification to the parking area and the movement of the
fuel storage tanks and Phase V would be the edging along vegetation
and landscaping over there. That is not cast in stone, but that's
tentatively what Harris Bay's looking at, at the moment.
MR. TURNER-Okay. That's fine.
MR. DUSEK-Mr. O'Donnell. as a result of the improvements that
you're making in the parking area, is the parki~g area going to be
enlarged anywhere on the site?
MR. O'DONNELL-It's going to be one space smaller than it now is.
MR. DUSEK-Why is that?
MR. O'DONNELL-To tell you the truth, I'm not sure, but the count
that we've got now is 125, and as we figured it out, it's going to
be 124. The parking area now is out to here. It's going to move
in here, although we are going to pick up spaces where the gas
mound is. Perhaps the recycling area is going to go where there's
now parking. the walkway, that's why. There's parking up here now.
MR. MENTER-And you're considering those 10 by 20 spaces.
JIM MILLER
MR. MILLER-Yes. What we did is. right now. it's just gravel, and
it's not delineated. It's kind of haphazard. What we're
essentially doing is decreasing the size of the parking lot to
accommodate the landscaping and the walkway and some of the other
improvements, but at the same time, we're trying to organize it so
it's more efficient. We kept the layout as being larger, only
because of the nature of the gravel parking lot. We have over 100
cars capacity across the road. So the total number of cars is not
an issue. It's more of one to just get the most efficient layout
and the best circulation on this side.
MR. MENTER-Which, it's going to be unmarked anyway, right?
MR. MILLER-Right. Sometimes, what happens is. the center aisles of
where the parking are, the layout, timbers, or something like that.
to mark them during the season, and then unfortunately they have to
be removed in order to haul and store boats. So nothing permanent
can be placed in the gravel area.
MR. O'DONNELL-And it's not going to be lined.
MR. DUSEK-Mr. O'Donnell, a question as to that porch area that's
going to be added on to the building, is that going to be enclosed
or covered. or is that going to be an open deck? How is that going
to situated?
MR. O'DONNELL-It's going to be open deck, tying this porch. this
deck, and this deck together. So the entire area right here. and
the ramp area here will be open. Over the top of what is now
picnic area, Harris Bay is proposing a canvass awning, essentially
a sun screen.
MR. DUSEK-Is there going to be tables or some type of seating
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facilities out there?
MR. O'DONNELL-I would expect picnic tables.
MR. DUSEK-And that's what exists now in part of it.
MR. O'DONNELL-There are picnic tables now down here.
MR. DUSEK-And then you're going to add, what, tables to other area
as well?
MR. O'DONNELL-That I'm not sure. The plan hasn't developed in that
level of detail. There, I expect, will be some seating out there.
MR. DUSEK-And what was the addition onto the shed going to be used
for?
MR. 0' DONNELL-The collection of vending machines. Right now
there's an ice machine around here. There's a telephone here.
There's a Coke machine, I believe, up here. We're going to collect
the vending machines, move them down into this area, put an
addition on the shed which currently houses, it's some storage and
electrical equipment, and screening.
MR. DUSEK-My recollection was, too, from, I think, the previous
meeting, wasn't there going to be some sort of sewage pumpout booth
around some place?
MR. 0' DONNELL-There's a vacuum tank and a port-a-potty dumping
station right here now. The proposal is to move them right here.
MR. DUSEK-Are they going to remain the same size?
MR. O'DONNELL-Yes. They're just going to move from one side of the
building to another.
MR. DUSEK-I mention that, because when we were looking at the map
earlier, it just occurred to me that we didn't describe that
change.
MR. MENTER-That's a self-contained situation anyway, right?
MR. O'DONNELL-I'm sorry. I don't understand the question.
MR. MENTER-That pumping station and the port-a-potty, that's all
self-contained. It's not tied into the regular sewer system, or is
it?
MR. O'DONNELL-It's tied into Harris Bay's septic system. There's
a pumpout facility on the gas dock, and there's a port-a-potty
dumping station here. It goes into a holding tank, and it's pumped
out to the leach field, the septic tanks and leach fie Ids, and
there's no change at all proposed in that, other than moving the
vacuum tank into the pumping station, and if that stands between
Harris Bay and the permits, I'm confident that the Board will
delete that aspect of it.
MR. TURNER-Okay. Any other questions? None? Okay. I'll now open
the public hearing.
PUBLIC HEARIHG OPEHED
KARL KROETZ
MR. KROETZ-I want to ask a question. It's very simple. Did
everyone read the letters that were submitted, every member of that
Board?
MR. TURNER-No, not yet.
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MR. KROETZ-Well. what's the purpose of submitting them. then. to
the Town. of your objections of the public. if they are not read by
the very people who are going to make the decision?
MR. TURNER-We haven't gotten to that point yet.
them. because I haven't seen them. only tonight.
I haven't read
MR. KROETZ-When are you qoinq to read them?
MR. TURNER-We can read the ones that people want read into the
record. We'll read them right tonight. the ones that are
submitted.
MR. KROETZ-You're going to do that?
MR. TURNER-We can.
MR. KROETZ-Well. you understand my point?
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. KROETZ-There were things that I said and dozens of other people
said that I think bears a thought on this process.
MR. TURNER-That's fine. Do you want to explain your position any
different than you explained in the letter? Step right up to that
microphone and explain it. That's why I opened the public hearing.
MR. KROETZ-I'll read you my letter.
MR. TURNER-That's fine. Read your letter.
MR. KROETZ-There's no point in doing this if nobody looks at it or
hears it. "Dear Mr. Martin: I am very concerned about the action
the Planning Board has taken in regard to the proposed 5 to 7 year
Master Plan to upgrade and rehabilitate the facilities of the
Harris Bay Yacht Club (HBYC). It was shocking to me to be present
at the February 22 meeting of the Planning Board to see them give
SEQR approval for the project. Those of us who live at Harris Bay
and are familiar with the problems. believe that the approval of
this project will have a detrimental short term and long term
impact on the lake. The HBYC is by far the largest marina on the
lake. with the dockage for 272 boats. most of which are equipped
with toilets. cooking facilities. etc. The sewage disposal system
for all these boats. plus the clubhouse toilet facilities and the
public boat pump-out facilities. all ends up across the road in the
wetlands. All of the other area marinas (Mooring Post. Castaway.
Lake George Boat. Co.. Dunhams Bay Boat Co.. Fisher's Marina) have
boat pump-out facilities which discharge into holding tanks. The
sewage is then taken by tank truck to a proper disposal site away
from the lake. It is inconceivable to me that the Town Attorney
and Planning Board agreed with the HBYC position that the Town has
no authority to determine or even discuss the adequacy of the
present sewage disposal system. May I remind you of the hundreds
of people who live along the shores of Harris Bay that depend on
the lake for their drinking water. I respectfully request that the
Town not approve any part of the HBYC Master Plan until the Town
can determine that the existing sewage system is not polluting the
lake or the wetlands. and that it can also safely handle the
increase in activity and use resulting from the proposed 5 to 7
year Master Plan. Sincerely. Karl C. Kroetz"
MR. TURNER-Thank you.
application?
Who wishes to be next. opposed to the
FRANK ENGLAND
MR. ENGLAND-My name is Frank England. I live on Hillman Road. I'd
just like to answer a question that Mr. Thomas asked. and
respectfully disagree with Mr. O'Donnell. about the use of the gas
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booth at Harris Bay. In fact. I've used them myself. last summer.
Harris Bay had a gas war going with the Lake George Boat Company.
and they were selling gas for five and six cents a gallon cheaper.
So I'm sure that many boats from allover the lake were coming to
Harris Bay and using the gas facilities. I don't know if any of
you gentlemen own boats on the lake. taken your children or
grandchildren out. one of the places that you always buy gas is
where there's sanitary facilities for the children and probably for
yourself. So I would like to disagree with what Mr. O'Donnell has
said. because you come there. you can use them. You can walk into
their place and buy whatever is there. if you want it. Now. I'd
like to start on just what I prepared before I came. I used to
live about 400 yards from where the Harris Bay Yacht Club is. and
we have been discussing with them and talking to Boards for some
past 30 years. and I've seen the water around the dock. I've seen
it change. in fact. I finally sold my place and moved around to the
other side of Takundewide. It seems to me that we've been
discussing expansions with these gentlemen for some 30 years. In
fact. I've got a list of things I gave here to Betty Monahan back
on 10/4/86. when I was quite concerned with what was going on there
at Harris Bay Yacht Club. and it lists various letters. I won't
bore you with them. but at one time. I did try to write to ENCON in
Albany. I have a daughter who's an attorney. We tried to write to
them. It didn't do us much good. Things just kept going on. I
just think this newest approach which they euphemistically called
an upgrade is a little bit more expansion. I think they're doing
a better job of taking care where they filled in before. whether it
was legal or not. I don't know. All I know. in the past 30 years.
it's gone from about a 30 slip dock that Cliff (lost word) started.
went through various owners. and now has some 272 docks which
stretch some 300. or 50 feet out into the lake. over State land.
I've often wondered how they can build over State land and then
sell it. Now a couple of us. when we were trying to fight this
thing back in 60's or 70's. I've forgotten now it's so long ago.
thought. gee. we ought to go and get permission to build 300 foot
docks out. and we could kind of close off the bottom of the Bay.
but what has happened has happened. so lets take what we've got
here now. and lets take a look at what they want to do in this
upgrade. First. I'd like to speak about the lights.
Unfortunately. I used to sleep out on the porch at my house. which
is about 400 yards. or 300 yards. and a couple of those big lights
there happened to shine right on my porch. So. I'd have to move my
head if I wanted to sleep without a light on. I don't think they
should be allowed to put these twelve foot lights up. because it's
going to bother the residents in Harris Bay. Unfortunately. it
seems to be they're more concerned about the light shining on 9L
than it is shining on the people that live there and pay their
taxes along Harris Bay. The outdoor deck. I am sure. what I can
see from. it's going to be an attractive place. and I'm sure it'll
generate some more use. How much. I can't say. The fuel tanks. I
just don't understand. If you're going to move the fuel tanks. why
are you leaving them near the water? Why don't we put them across
the road? Put them up on high ground. I was told you can't get
permission to go under the highway. and I asked. where did they
find that out. I asked if anybody has checked with DOT. To me.
that's where the answer should come. I think if you're going to
move them. if they can. and go across. under the road. they should
go over there. and put them up on the high ground. Get them away
from the water. The fill. I think they're just going to put more
fill on top of fill that was put in. Whether that's legal or not.
don't know. but it's there. So that's a fact that you can't do
much about. However. I'm just kind of interested. I drove by
there today. I don't know. if you look at the map that came with
their application. you'll notice in there there's a picture.
there's a State park (lost word). I don't know if their map shows
this. no. it doesn't. but if you look. Harris Bay. here's the
bottom of the Bay. like this. Harris Bay Yacht Club is in here.
and if you look down. there's a stream that goes down here. and
this is a State park. and if you look at the picture. in your
opinion. they sent to you. you'll see it's all wetland. In 1970.
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they got a special variance to put the sheds in. They put the
sheds up right in the middle of a wetland. Now they say they're
going to put parking across the street. Take a look at where can
they park across the street. unless they fill in some wetlands or
use the wetlands already filled. Another thing is. I told you. I
just drove by there today. I have a Queensbury Zoning Ordinance.
1982. now mind you there's a stream that goes behind there. It's
probably over here like this. and comes back to a State park. I'll
read you just a part. and I'll leave this with you. It says if you
have a dock that's attached to the shore. no dock shall extend more
than 40 feet off shore at mean low water mark. Of course they got
an exception. they're at 340. No dock shall extend off shore more
than 20 percent of the width of the stream or the brook at the
point of construction. If you go up to Harris Bay right now. and
take a look. the stream is here. You see the configuration of
their docks. The docks come entirely across both sides of the
stream. like it's a big H. from the stream. What does this do?
It's a cinch no fish or anything can get back up into that swamp
back up in the State park. unless they go by the propellers of all
the boats. I would like to leave this Ordinance with you. because
they keep citing 1980 here. This is Queensbury' s Ordinance in
1982. and the part about the docks is right there. I think now we
come to. probably. my last item. One thing that I'm very
concerned. quite overwhelmed by. listening to the reading of this.
how concerned they are about the neighborhood of Harris Bay. It
seemed very strange. after 30 years. now they're becoming very
concerned with us. Now we get to the septic tank. I've been told
it's some 20 years old. and I don't know the technical stuff about
inspecting things. Let me tell you. just give you a picture in the
summer time. Two hundred and seventy docks. lets give them the
benefit. There are only two hundred and. maybe. thirty of the
families up. So there's two hundred and thirty families using
those docks. You've got shower facilities. I don't know if any of
you have lived on a sailboat or lived on a boat. It's sure hard to
take a shower on it. They've got shower facilities there.
sanitation facilities. and I just wonder how big a septic tank
should be. for two hundred and thirty families. Now. mind you.
that this is in the summer time. when everything is fairly dry.
and. of course. if you go back and look where their septic tank is.
they'll even admit to you that it's right on the shoulders of a
wetland behind. to the east of 9L. Plus. I was shocked. today. to
learn. I've always know that they've had this pump out there.
commercial pump out facilities. and I was shocked today when I went
into the Town Hall and found out. the pump house facilities which
they just told you. they pump and they pump it right down the road
down into their septic system. You've got a septic system down
there that's supposed to take care of. lets say. in the summer
time. two hundred and thirty families. plus the commercial.
whatever they get. and I've been down there. and I know how many
people who are not members of Harris Bay Yacht Club that use that.
and I'm sure. I can't give you any numbers. but when I'm down there
getting gas many times during the summer. I've seen quite a few big
boats in there having their tanks pumped out. and they weren't
members of Harris Bay Yacht Club. So what I'm saying to you
gentlemen. and I know your problems that you have when you're
sitting on a Board. because I've been a town official myself. in
Massachusetts. and I know we've had to deal with many developers.
They have a lot of high paid engineers. high paid lawyers. and
unfortunately the town and you people do not have enough people to
check on everything that's told to you. So what I'm asking you to
do tonight is what the gentleman just ahead of me did. Do not give
them anything until we make sure that that septic system is up to
the regulations. because I don't think it's anywhere near what it
should be. and I think we're all concerned about the quality of
Lake George. and I've got my old files. I used to keep when we were
trying to ask these gentlemen to do certain things and cut down on
the side. This is August 1975. State Health Engineer Sees Merky
Future for formerly crystal clear Lake George. and most of that is
coming from septic systems that go down into the lake. What I'm
asking you people. one other thing that I made a note here. There
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should be no use of a hardship from these gentlemen asking you for
any kind of variance. Any hardship they have is of their own
doings. We've been after them to do certain things in the past
since 1960. So any hardships they're facing now are of their own
making. So I would ask you again. do not give them anything. or
any variance until we see that that septic system is up to snuff.
I think that they should be required for any pump outs to be done
just like any other marina on the lake. Thank you.
MR. CARVIN-Mr. England. now you made a comment here that you had
been in Harris Bay and had observed non member boats being pumped
out. Is that correct?
MR. ENGLAND-Yes.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. How would you determine that. or how did you
determine that they were non members?
MR. ENGLAND-Well. because I knew a couple of them. because they
were from way up Harris Bay, the end of Assembly Point, and they
came and they asked, they said to me. what do you charge for a boat
that isn't a member. It's a public facility.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. May I ask, direct a question here, is this a
common practice, or is this a service that you do provide for non
members?
MR. O'DONNELL-Yes, it is. I believe that we're required to by the
Lake George Park Commission.
MR. CARVIN-Okay.
MR. ENGLAND-I would have no idea of how many there are or anything
like that, but I know it's a public facility. It's used by people
who are non members.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. It seems we have a little problem here. In other
words, you're saying you have to do it. Is that correct?
MR. O'DONNELL-It's my understanding, yes.
MR. ENGLAND-Well, there's no doubt it's a nice thing for people on
the thing, but I think, my concern is that they should be made to
use, not let it go into their septic system. which I don't think is
adequate now. Do like any other marina does. here. Put it into a
holding tank and have it hauled away.
MR. TURNER-Okay.
MR. CARVIN-Thank you for your comments.
MR. TURNER-Thank you. Who wants to be next?
MARY ARTHUR BEEBE
MRS. BEEBE-I'm Mary Arthur Beebe. I'm from the Lake George
Association, and I apologize because I'm filling in for staff
person Kathy Vilmar who's been at all your meetings and she's out
with strep throat. I have a question, because the LGA has, over
the years, received enumerable phone calls about this facility and
about the septic system, and has followed and received a lot of
information about inspections and complaints from other agencies
that have received similar complaints, and there's an awful lot of
inspectors that have visited that site, and I'd like to know, first
of all, if the Town has collected all the information from Warren
County's inspections that were done over the years, and from the
other people like the Health Department or any of the other people
from DEC who may have been involved with some of the site visits,
because before you make a decision, I think you should do a
thorough search of every relative enforcement agency and try to
- 26 -
find out exactly what that situation is, and that question relates
to the other question that I have is, looked at all the maps and
listened carefully to the presentation, visually, it looks like
rather small changes to a site, but what does it really mean about
the rate of use that it projects? It shows, to me, that the
membership of the Harris Bay Yacht Club wants to use the site more,
and if they're going to be using that site, instead of going out to
the islands on their boats and being there for the weekend, more
frequently they're going to be using the interior of the building
and the shower and their restroom facilities more frequently, and
that's why it relates to the septic system. Rate of use is not
just determined by more feet added to a deck or walkway, but when
projects like this were approved previously, there were all kinds
of statistics given in the past about how often the people who
actually keep their boats in the docks really use their boats, and
how often, and when they did, how much time they spent at the on
land facility and how much time they went out on the lake, and you
really didn't need quite so many parking places because they
wouldn't all be there at the same time, and they really wouldn't be
spending that much time on this site, because they'd be going out
and dispersing around Lake George. Has any information been
provided to show just exactly what the rate of use really is and
what it's proj ected to be as a result of these improvements,
aesthetically to the site, and I'd encourage you to look at those
and see if there's a connection to the use of the septic systems,
before you make any great decisions on this. Thank you.
MR. TURNER-Okay. Thank you. Mr. Salvador?
JOHN SALVADOR
MR. SALVADOR-My name is John Salvador. I'm a resident at Dunhams
Bay. I had addressed a letter to the Planning Board, mentioning my
concerns about the fill, and the Planning Board received an answer
from Rist-Frost, their consultant. In effect, Rist-Frost didn't
say that my concerns were to be discounted. They said that more
information was needed. I'm concerned, the repeated use of fill to
raise the level of the parking lot is nothing more than filling in
the lake. You have one issue that you are filling in a wetland.
I think all of that area at one time, north and south Route 9L, was
wetland. So whether or not the fill was put in initially with a
permit, the applicant is continuing to fill a wetland. I don't
know what the Town's wetland regulation is in this regard. I don't
know how the APA gets into this, but I do know the Army Corp of
Engineer has jurisdiction. The Consultant, Rist-Frost, suggested
that some borings be taken. It's not too difficult to take
shallow, undisturbed samples, but you see the extent to which fill
material has gone down into the lake, into the wetlands. The DEC
has jurisdiction only to the point where you're filling below the
mean high water level. As long as they keep this fill up above the
mean high water level, they just keep pushing it down. So the fill
they put in this year doesn't become fill below the mean high water
level until three or four years from now, and then another layer
goes on top, and I think, then, as the Consultant suggests, more
information is needed to determine what's happening, because I'm
sure you're not getting consolidation of that underlying silt.
It's moving. It's going some place. It's going out into the lake.
I have a letter here that I addressed to the Planning Board. You
don't have it.
MR. TURNER-We have the letter.
MR. SALVADOR-You have it?
MR. TURNER-Yes. I believe that's the one we have. Yes.
MR. SALVADOR-And you have Rist-Frost's?
MR. TURNER-Yes.
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MR. SALVADOR-With regard to parking. I believe the Harris Bay Yacht
Club has a Class A Marina Operator's Permit from the Lake George
Park Commission. and. by the way. I should preface my remarks. I am
not here tonight to defend the Lake George Park Commission. okay.
The Lake George Park Commission presently has a rule. regulation.
that calls for adequate parking. if you have a Class A Marina
Operator's Permit. I know it's nebulous. What is adequate
parking? I heard the number 125 here tonight. is that both sides
of the road?
MR. TURNER-No. one side.
MR. O'DONNELL-One side.
MR. SALVADOR-What's the total?
MR. TURNER-One hundred and ninety-two. I think. that's what's
required by Code.
MR. MILLER-That's what's required (lost words) what we proved we
could show. but I believe we have two hundred cars. both sides of
the road. It's been my understanding that even maximum overflow.
Fourth of July weekend. nice weather. maximum overflow on the other
side of the road. you'd get maybe (lost word) cars.
MR. TURNER-Eighty-one you've got here. on the map. 117 on the
Clubhouse side. 81 are provided on the property south of Route 9L.
MR. MILLER-The total number there is. Mr. Chairman. was based on
the Zoning Ordinance requirement. There's actually more than that.
MR. TURNER-Right. Okay.
MR. SALVADOR-So the applicant meets the Town's parking
requirements. Mr. O'Donnell mentioned lease agreements with the
DOT. Are they. have they been submitted?
MR. TURNER-I have an affidavit that I asked Mr. Miller to get from
DOT. for the sewer line. this is 1970.
MR. SALVADOR-They have some kind of an easement permit to use a
culvert through which to put a. and to run a sewer line parallel to
the road on DOT property. or DEC property. as the case may be.
MR. TURNER-Yes. they do.
MR. MARTIN-Yes. It's described in the permit.
MR. SALVADOR-I'd like to know what the nature of the permit is. Is
it an agreement? Is it a lease? Is there a consideration? Has
there been consideration?
MR. TURNER-It's a Highway Work Permit.
MR. SALVADOR-Issued by?
MR. TURNER-Issued by DOT. New York State DOT. signed by Mr. Keis.
who was the resident engineer at the time. in 1970. the date being
6/29/70.
MR. SALVADOR-A Highway Work Permit?
MR. TURNER-That's correct. Install two inch diameter sewer force
main within right-of-way crossing highway through structure. at
Station 382+50. Plan approved by Lake George Sanitary Inspector.
No pavement to be disturbed.
MR. SALVADOR-Does that meet your requirements.
the Lake George Sanitary Inspector is.
I don't know who
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MR. TURNER-I don't know who it was at the time.
MR. DUSEK-I don't understand your question, John, when you say,
does it meet our requirements. This was 1970. You'd have to go
back and take a look at what then existed at that time, in terms of
rules and regulations. I don't know why Lake George investigated
as opposed to the Town.
MR. SALVADOR-I don't know who the Lake George, was. Maybe that's
worth looking into. The other thing is, at the time they did that,
I think they owned the property, both north and south of the road.
Since then, I believe the property has probably been sold, on the
south side. So they don't own any land parallel to the road, from
that culvert to their septic system. Now, the permit is just for
the use of the culvert.
MR. TURNER-Yes, that's what it appears to be. Let me read you part
of what the ending here is. The proposed sewage line will service
a large marina operating adjacent to the causeway section of the
Fort George/Brayton, Point 2SH1869 which crosses the south end of
Harris Bay and Lake George. Installation is necessary because of
a new sanitary regulation covering boats and use on Lake George.
The applicant proposes to cross the highway by laying a proposed
line directly on the invert of our 54 inch diameter corrugated pipe
structure at Station 328+50. This is an equalizer culvert and has
no appreciable flow, so that the proposed pipe will have no effect
on the efficiency of the culvert. The New York State Department of
Health has examined the proposal and has no objections thereto.
Approval of this application is strongly recommended.
MR. SALVADOR-Without studying it, it sounds to me like the permit
is confined to the use of the culvert.
MR. TURNER-Yes, right. I would say that.
MR. SALVADOR-I don't know how this bears on the application, but it
appears to me they don't have an easement or an agreement or
whatever you might call it to the use of the land on which that
pipe is supported that runs parallel to 9L. The property on which
the septic tank is located and the property of Harris Bay Yacht
Club that we know are not contiguous pieces of land. They're not
contiguous.
MR. TURNER-No, you're right.
MR. SALVADOR-Well, for whatever you think. Talking about toilets
in the building, again, the Lake George Park Commission requires
that Class A Marinas have toilet facilities open at all times,
whatever that means. Mr. 0' Donnell mentioned the fact that somehow
they want to get these vending machines outside so that when they
secure the building people can still get at the vending machines,
but then they can't get at the toilets. Now the idea of toilets
open at all times is to allow people, eleven, twelve o'clock at
night, if they must, to use the toilet. What is the source of
water supply at the Harris Bay Yacht Club?
MR. TURNER-Lake George, probably.
MR. SALVADOR-It's my understanding that the Health Department is
beginning to inspect water supplies of marinas with over 40 boats.
I don't know how this plays. The pump out facilities, when the
Lake George Park Commission first started it's pump out
regulations, every marina on Lake George was required to have a
pump out facility, and of course that didn't happen. That's not
practical. So the Park Commission backed off and they said, well,
you don't have to have a pump out facility, if you have proven
access. What does that mean? Proven access means that you have an
agreement, as a marina operator, by the way, this is Class A and
Class B marinas. The small mini marinas, if you have an agreement
with somebody that has a pump out facility to accept your clientele
- 29 -
to pump out their boats. Now, under that program. Harris Bay Yacht
Club entered into many, many, many agreements with marinas. I
don't think that's required today, the agreement, but the program
was set in motion, under a signed agreement, and I know that Harris
Bay Yacht Club is one of the focus points of this. It was
mentioned earlier that you're recruired to pump out by the Lake
George Park Commission. That's not the case. In fact, we have a
pump out station. and we refuse to pump out the public. We pump
out the boats who rent dock slips from us, and those boats only,
and it's by appointment. Okay. So, it's not a requirement of the
Lake George Park Commission. I'd like to talk about the pit that's
being relocated, that sump, what is being relocated from one side
of the building to the other?
MR. MILLER-The vacuum tank that creates the vacuum for the boat
pump out. It's just a visual thing to get it away from the front
of the building.
MR. SALVADOR-So the pit that it discharges into stays, and the
port-a-potty dumping station?
MR. MILLER-Now, they just lift the cover of the pit and dump
directly into that. and the intention is to create an area to the
side that they can dump into that will go into the pump pit, so
they're not dumping directly into the pump pit.
MR. SALVADOR-It requires some kind of a receptacle (lost word). I
don't know to what extent this disturbs the system, adds to it.
whatever.
MR. MILLER-Well, right now, they're using the pump pit directly,
and, again, just to take it away from the front of the building, we
feel is an appropriate use of the front of the building. and just
provide it off to the side. It's an existing use that's there now.
MR. SALVADOR-So, it requires a modification to the system that
involves laying a piece of pipe and putting in some kind of a
receptacle that's going to be accepting raw sewage. and really
uncontrolled. Don't the people go up and just dump their own port-
a-pottys? Handling sewage like that, that's why we don't do it for
the public. I'll be honest with you. Okay.
MR. TURNER-Thank you. Next?
GILBERT BOEHM
MR. BOEHM-My name is Gilbert Boehm. I can understand why the
applicant is very careful to avoid discussing, or getting into any
harangue relative to the sewage system. It is a significant hot
potato. You've heard some comments already. I don't really
believe you understand exactly what this facility looks like. The
pipes running from that system that they were talking about
relocating goes through the culvert, as they pointed out, and it
runs along parallel to the highway, drapes in and out of the
wetland, on a bunch of (lost words) and goes into two septic tanks
which are located within 10 feet of the wetland on a high bank.
Sometimes the covers on those have been off. as a matter of fact.
Now. I as a private citizen couldn't push any pipe. any sewage
pipe, into the lake if I tried. I couldn't put my septic tank
within 100 feet of the lake. Yet. here is a commercial facility,
and you've heard all the usage it gets, and to my knowledge it's
never been pumped out. It's going somewhere, and since the septic
tanks are so close to the wetlands, it's my assumption that the
drain field is also pretty close. You need to walk that facility,
I think. before you really make a final determination here. By far
the better solution would be to insist on having a holding tank
facility there, on their property. and, as it's been pointed out.
that pipe line that runs from the culvert to their septic tank is
about 200 feet. in and out of the water, and not on any land that
they own. They don't want to get into any harangue on that, I'm
- 30 -
sure. That's why they're trying to keep from talking about it, but
I guess you should consider this, as part of this application.
Thank you.
MR. TURNER-Thank you.
CHARLIE ADAMSON
MR. ADAMSON-I'm Charlie Adamson from Assembly Point. I won't
repeat things that have been said, necessarily, but I'm sure that
you're all aware, at least I hope you are, I don't remember the
Planning Board was, maybe you people are, of the septic
requirements in the Town of Queensbury that apply to homeowners.
As far as I know, they haven't been changed. If you have a house,
in theory, you have to have a septic system that provides for
taking care of 150 gallons per day per bedroom, okay, and so in a
four bedroom house you're up to, what, 600 gallons, and so forth.
Okay. It's interesting to multiply, lets assume we have 272 boats
or so, and lets figure that maybe two boats form a bedroom, in
which case, you have to have a septic system that will handle
20,000 gallons a day. If each boat is a bedroom, you have 40,000
gallons a day. Now, I've never heard this sort of thing, but there
is a septic problem, okay. Let me go back to the, the statement
was made that this building activity won't necessarily increase
usage. I think other people have spoken to that, but I think
that's clearly not true. I think they're upgrading, and there will
be considerably more activity there, and if there's going to be
considerably more activity, you have got to look at the facilities
that handle that activity. In other words, you really have to look
at the Town, with all due respect to the opinion of the Town
Attorney, the Town has to look at that, if you are going to provide
any protection for what has to be the main asset of this whole
area. Okay. So there is going to be increased usage of that area.
The facilities are going to be better. There are going to be more
people cooking their hotdogs. There are going to be more people
bringing their beer, and on rainy days, they'll have big parties
there, maybe even on Sundays. Okay. We've already established the
fact that they do have to have pump outs. Maybe more and more
people will come. In other words, the usage of that place, the
nicer it gets, is going to go up, and there's no question about the
gas. We've already heard that there was a gas war last year, so
that you could get cheaper gas there. The store, too, I believe,
within the last two years, and my memory's getting weak. I'll
admit that, and maybe I can't see now because of the winter, but
that building has signs on it, something for sale. I can't
remember what it was that is for sale, but it's a sign that is
directed at somebody coming along the road. So, who's to say how
many people are going to stop, and if they stop, come in to use the
store. I have gotten newspapers there, I know, in the past. I
don't know if they sell them there now, but one thing can lead to
another. There's no question that more activity is going to go on
at this point. I prepared a something for you, as Ted knows, and
I'll leave you a copy. I won't read the whole thing, but I will
read, because basically the first part of it says what I've just
said, but let me just read the end of it. "I do not see how the
Planning Board and the Town Attorney allowed this variance
application to reach this Board without careful, professional
scrutiny of the HBYC septic system. I cannot believe that there is
not a serious threat to the waters of Lake George as the situation
stands now. And this threat can only become worse if nothing is
done before, or as, the facilities are upgraded. 3. It would be
an unbelievable example of environmental callousness if you take no
action to check the adequacy of the HBYC septic system. 4. If you
were to schedule this hearing at a more auspicious time - anytime
from the middle of June on - when the shoreline properties were
more fully occupied, you would have dozens more residents urging
you to exercise your responsibility for the historic and economic
jewel that is Lake George." Thank you.
MR. TURNER-Who's next? Joe?
- 31 -
JOE ROULIER
MR. ROULIER-Good evening. I'm Joe Roulier. There's several issues
that I would like to discuss. and the first thing that I would like
to say is that I hope that all the letters that have been sent into
this Board. and I understand there are several letters that have
been sent in. after anyone that wants to speak. that the letters
can then be read into the record. because I agree with what Mr.
Adamson just said. that if this was the middle of the summer. this
building right now would be packed to the doors. Unfortunately. a
lot of these events go on when the people are out of town. for one
reason or another. and they're never aware of what takes place in
the winter. and I think that we have had some response from the
letters. and I think it's imperative. before this Board leaves
tonight. that every letter that has been turned in is read. so that
you fully understand the feelings of the property owners within
Harris Bay. Regarding the septic. I'd like to speak on that
briefly. if you don't mind. I don't know how many members of the
Board actually have been to the site. You obviously have a
feeling. right now. as to how the residents generally feel about
it. One of the concerns that I have regarding the system. not only
is the leachfield. that I feel as though is totally inadequate. but
also a significant amount of chemicals that are added to the actual
sewage itself. If anyone of you are familiar with the holding
tanks that are on boats. it's not a system generally that's
associated with a septic tank type system that you're familiar
with. What holding tanks are is literally raw sewage. no dilution.
whatsoever. of this sewage, and to that sewage is added various
chemical additives that reduce the smell of the sewage. so you
don't have all these boats up there, all 271 boats sitting around
with a tremendous sewer gas or smell coming out of them. That is
the sewage that is pumped into the particular system that you've
heard about tonight. We have no idea. we have some idea of the
composition of sewage, but as ~ sit here, I have no idea of the
composition of the chemicals that are added to that sewage, and I
want you to know that Mr. O'Donnell wants you to think that this is
not a significant problem. We're looking at 271 very large boats.
I would say the largest boat is up to 38 feet in that marina. I'm
told some of these boats have multiple toilets on it. They have
kitchens on it. They have not only their own families that are on
the boat. they have routine visitors. In fact. in the height of
the summer, they have a certain parking lot. to the south side.
that's designated for visitors only. In addition to that. you have
all of these people showering, using toilet facilities in the main
Clubhouse building. If that's not enough, the facility is open to
the general public, and anyone, I have no idea of the number of
boats, if it's one to one thousand, has the free use of that
facili ty to go in there, to obtain gas and also to have their
bilges removed of sewage. It is a significant problem. I would
like to believe that they would have adequate disposal of it. When
you read the application, they make reference to. the septic system
is located on a 25 acre parcel. There's no question it's located
on a 25 acre parcel. but the actual size of the septic is probably
not much bigger than from the edge of this table to that wall. and
from that wall to there. and that's the entire area where the
sewage is disposed of. To compound the problem is that the, it is
located immediately adjacent to a wetland area, and I tend to think
that there's never any visual evidence of any failure of it, only
because it's essentially located on top of a swamp. The swamp is
a huge absorber of all this leach or septic that's pumped into
there, and there would be never any trace, never any visible trace,
of any problem that could be associated with it. In addition to
that. you're never going to get a smell. If anything's leaching
into the swamp itself. you'll never have any indication of any
sewage from smelling it. because of the chemicals that are added in
in the actual holding tank (lost word) the boat. I would like to
clarify one thing that was improperly stated by Mr. O'Donnell. I
did do water tests in the fall of the year. in December. I did two
water tests. The first water test was for total coliform. I took
those tests to the Lake George Park Commission. who at the time
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told me they did not have the money to go and do the test on their
own. and then went and did a second test. and that test was for
fecal coliform. and the fecal coliform count was so high that the
people that did the test for me. which was over here at the Hudson
Environmental Services. the chemists/biologists that did the test
told me that there was no question in his mind that the results of
this test indicate that there is human sewage going into the
wetland area of Lake George. SUbsequent to that. and probably out
of some embarrassment. the Lake George Park Commission decided that
they would then go and do a test. The test indicated that there
was no sewage. I went and I asked the person that actually did the
testing where he had obtained the samples from. if it was in the
area that I had obtained my water sample from. which was
immediately adjacent to the disposal area. He told me that that
particular area was frozen and that he did ~ take the sample area
from the area immediately adjacent to where this leachfield area
is. I think there's enough said on that. I hope that you get the
idea that it is a huge problem. The proposals that they have
placed before you. there is no question about that. that they want
to expand it in a way that there will be additional activity in the
area. Hr. O'Donnell was able to give you a couple of examples. I
would like to give you an example also. Last year I had an
opportunity to ski on a mountain in Vermont. It's called Okemo.
Okemo had a 10 year master program whereby they were continually
upgrading. changing the facilities. putting in new lifts. etc..
etc. The sole purpose of that master plan. and that upgrading was
to increase the acti vi ty at that particular facility. I have
absolutely no reason to believe that this master plan will not also
increase the activity at this facility. One follows the other. If
it's more attractive. more people are going to stop there. Hore
people will be using either the gas facility. the pump out
facili ty. or going to the store. and subsequent to that. more
people will be using the sewage facility. but absolutely it's
imperative that we look at that. I would like to touch upon one
other issue that really has me concerned. I have watched this
marina. since the time the first shovel full of dirt was put into
the parking lot. I've been in Harris Bay for in excess of 35
years. They have 271 docks. They've had those docks. lets say.
for 20 years. Twenty years ago. the average boat on Lake George
was approximately twenty feet. The average boat in that marina
today is probably 30 feet. It's 30 foot with all the amenities
that go with all the new boats today. In my opinion. that is an
expansion of that marina of 50 percent. So that has increased 50
percent over the last 20 years. without any consideration for
anyone in our area. Hr. O'Donnell speaks of the benefits to Harris
Bay. I don't think that all of a sudden looking out your front
window and seeing a marina grow 50 percent is any benefit to Harris
Bay. and I would like to know why. if there is a 52 percent
expansion. why they have not had to conform to some type of Board
for variances to that effect or why. within that period. they have
not had to upgrade their septic system to accommodate. call it what
you may. RV's. trailers. or whatever. They're all little hotel
units that are sitting up on the shore of Lake George right now.
I would have a hard time telling the Board that I approve of the
balance of the project for a couple of reasons. Increasing the
size of the shed. I would not want to be in your position. and
approve of a structure. and increase in a structure on Lake George
solely for the purpose of housing vending machines. It would be
very easy with. granted. they're all outside right now. and I think
that goes to show you what they think of North Queensbury as a
whole. that they just randomly have left the vending machines
outside. I think that there is absolutely no reason that the
current construction that is going on within the Clubhouse. while
they cannot put in two additional exterior doors. and house the
vending machines within a small combined area. within the
Clubhouse. I absolutely. with that in mind. I would hope that they
would turn down the shed area. The gas area. they have 40 some
acres of land. and the best that they can do. for installing a new
gas tank. is immediately adjacent to a wetland. immediately
adjacent to Route 9L. and from a visual standpoint. probably the
- 33 -
worst location that they could possibly come up with. Every car
that goes by there is going to be looking at a gas tank. There are
areas over on the east side. which is the yellow area over to the
right. which would be considerably less visible. I think the only
reason that they want that gas tank there is because of the easy
access of the gas line to the gas docks. There is no consideration
for the neighborhood. Everything that Mr. O'Donnell says. by the
way. is benefits to Harris Bay Yacht Club. I didn't hear one thing
say benefits to North Queensbury or the surrounding neighbors in
that area. and the extension of that is the lights. They want to
go in there and they want to put in additional 12 foot high
lighting. The next thing that we'll have. it'll look like Ames
Department Store or K-Marts. The neighbors. the residents in that
area don't want to look out and see some well lit up parking lot.
In fact. I would encourage the Board to not only say they cannot
have additional high lighting. but to have them remove the existing
lighting that's currently in place. I'm absolutely against the
fill. I think Mr. Salvador touched upon that quite well. There
are huge ramifications. It's something that has to be looked at.
and quite honestly I'm not qualified to make the final ruling on
that. but I would think that the Boards. that are proposed.
apparently. by Rist-Frost. would be the place to start. My other
major concern. of course. is the Clubhouse and the increase of the
deck with the awning over the top. I don't know of very many
facilities. in fact. I don't know of any. that need 1500 square
feet for the handicap. for a ramp. There are alternate areas where
they could put an access ramp for the handicap that would allow
them to enter that building. I am absolutely afraid that if they
increase the size of the patio as proposed. put an awning over the
top. the next thing you know. we will have a lot of tables out
there. We're going to have music out there every Saturday night.
We're going to have parties out there. and although there's no
plans right now. who is to say that five years from now we don't
have a bar and restaurant. It is something that we have to make
absolutely sure of. if they are going to be allowed a patio. that
there are restraints put on that. so that the items that I'm
presenting to you all of a sudden don't crop up out of the clear
blue sky. and the people in Harris Bay. in the middle of the Fourth
of July. all of a sudden have 300 people on a deck over there
hooting and hollering until four o'clock in the morning. I hope
that the Board considers everything that I've said. and turns down
their total application. because they have done nothing to benefit
Harris Bay. and the last point that I would like to make is. and I
hope all of you have been up to the marina within the last couple
of weeks. Do you see the mountains if you're standing in the
marina? Do you see the lake? All you see is huge boats on the
shore. covered with blue tarps. How much benefit is that to the
people that live there. to have to go there every day and look at
this nonsense? Twenty years ago. the boats were all taken out of
the water. They were carted up to Pilot Knob. and they were put in
storage buildings. but the people that still reside in that Bay all
of a sudden have to look at this sea of blue. Granted. there's not
many people around. but that doesn't change what your decision has
to be. Your decision is based on the facts as they are. not the
time of the year that it is. I want you to consider all this
before you make the decision. and I thank you for your time.
MR. TURNER-Thank you.
ROBERT EVANS
DR. EVANS-My name is Dr. Robert Evans and I'm Public Health Officer
for the Town of Queensbury. Ted and members of the Board. I live
on Harris Bay. but also I've walked. crawled. and slimed through
the muck along that line. and I get more calls every year from the
Harris Bay area than I get probably anywhere else in Queensbury.
My concerns are it's great for them to beautify the area. I think
that's fantastic. but I think it's time that they had a. get their
septic regulations up to snuff. How in God's name they ever got
the permission. in the 70's. to put in their system. I don't know.
- 34 -
I've been for about eight or nine years, and without question, the
amount of use, and the number of boats, the number of people in
that area, there should have holding tanks, without question. They
replaced that line about five years ago, and we cultured, and
cultured, and cultured that line. We had many leaks, five years
ago, before the new line was put in. It's extremely difficult to
pull cultures out of that swamp, where they have their dump site,
and some of their septic tanks back in the woods. I don't know if
you've ever been there, but, in all honesty, we've crawled every
inch of that. Lately, it's been good, but it's extremely difficult
to tell how much residue, etc., is being dropped into that swamp.
My comment would be, fine, beautify the area, as long as it's not
an expansion, but my concern is bring the site up to date. It
should have big enough pumping stations. I think that's fine. I
think they really should have in dwelling wells that are pumped
out, rather than the septic system they have. That would be mY
comment, in terms of, the continued improvement on site, would be
to have this as a pumping station, a holding tank.
MR. TURNER-Mrs. Monahan?
BETTY MONAHAN
MRS. MONAHAN-Betty Monahan. As most of you know, I am the
representative that represents this area of the Town of Queensbury
on the Town Board. It's been a concern of the municipalities,
organizations, residents around the lake, to stop the downgrading
of the quality of Lake George. To such an extent, it's also a
concern of the State of New York that we have got a million dollar
grant, Warren County has a million dollar grant, to assess the
quali ty of Lake George, as far as sewage, impact on it. Last
night, we spent hours up at the North Queensbury Firehouse at a
sewer scoping session run by Warren County and Clough Harbour, who
are the engineers of record. Their job will be to assess the
impacts of the sewers, sewage systems, I should say, on Lake
George, and the remedial actions, and what the alternatives are for
Queensbury. To remedy what's going on in Lake George, we're
looking at millions and millions of dollars. Having sat here in
the audience, there are some things that I think have to be
determined. Number One, that you need to quantify, I keep hearing
the Yacht Club say, there has been no increase because the docks
are the same, the pump out facilities are the same. I think you
have to quantify the number and the volume of the sewage of the
boats that are non members, that are using that facility. I also
think, as Mr. Roulier says, you have to look at the comparison of
the size of the boats, the motors, the water displacement, the
carrying capacity of the boats that are using the slips, and as
someone said, I believe it was Mr. Roulier or Mr. Adamson, if you
add a bedroom in a Critical Environmental Area, you have to prove
that your septic system can carry the impact of that bedroom, and
when you increase the size of boats, when you start having guests,
when you use them as a motel, an overnight residence, you are
having impact on the amount of sewage that has to be disposed of.
I would also have another question. I hear about raw sewage being
handled in this area for pump out. I also hear about food being
sold. I also hear about members serving food and preparing food.
I would wonder what the Department of Health regulations are about
having raw sewage in that close proximity to food handling, and I
think that should be checked out. I thank you for your
consideration.
MR. TURNER-Anybody else for the first time? Okay. John?
MR. SALVADOR-I would like to ask Dr. Evans the practicality of
taking water samples in December, when we know what the water
temperature is, and testing it for coliform and fecal coliform.
It's been stated that some samples were taken in December, and
taken to a laboratory and checked for coliform and fecal coliform.
Now we know what the water temperature is in December. I ask the
practicality of taking tests at that time of the year. What do you
- 35 -
find?
DR. EVANS-You're not gOing to get results.
MR. TURNER-Thank you.
MR. SALVADOR-Thank you.
MR. TURNER-Anyone else?
JOHN SKINNER
MR. SKINNER-My name's John Skinner. and I'm a resident at
Cleverdale. I felt that since I'm here I probably ought to come
forward and just to let you know that I am here because I'm opposed
to the expansion. We've been residents. my father and I. you have
a letter that I wrote. of Lake George since about 1920. I've seen
the water quality deteriorate in Pilot Knob where my family home
is. and I've seen it just in the last six years deteriorate where
I am. on Cleverdale. I have a submersible pump in the lake with a
filter in my basement. and in the summer time I have to change that
filter almost on a daily basis because of these large boats that
come by. I have a neighbor who's been scuba diving in front of my
house in 30 feet of water. and it's incredible the silt that is
turned up. Any time you fill anywhere around the lake. some of
that fill's gOing to get into the water. I looked at an early
Audobon Society magazine. an aerial photo of an area that was
developed. I believe. somewhere near Lake George Village. and it
was incredible. You could just see the sand and the silt on the
bottom of the lake. Harris Bay. as ~ view it. is an unfortunate
facility that we have. I recently read the Freshwater Institute's
report on the lake. and I guess the southern basin of the lake is
about 10 years ahead of the northern basin of the lake. as far as
deterioration. and if you read that report. it's very depressing.
because people come to Lake George because of the water quality.
because of the mountains. They don't come for any other reason.
This is such a precious resource that we have. and if we don't take
all of these things into consideration. that have been mentioned by
the people here. and I'm sure most of their concerns. then I think
it's a real travesty that's going to occur.
MR. TURNER-Anyone else?
PUBLIC HEARIRG CLOSED
MR. CARVIN-Mr. Chairman. before we get started as to rebuttals and
reading of letters and everything. I would just like to question
the Board on a couple of issues that I'd like to bring us back to
focus. if I can. I think the first hurdle that we really have to
address is whether we are going to hear this as a Use Variance. I
think the applicant has made a case that the Use Variance is not
necessary. and if the Board agrees with the fact that the Use
Variance is not necessary. then I think it's going to just delay
the process in reading the letters and whatnot. because obviously
the Use goes out. and we can move on to the Area.
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. CARVIN-If. however. the Board determines that the Use Variance
is necessary. then I think we'd have to come back to the criteria
that we have written. for approval for a Use Variance. So I'm
doing this in the effort to shorten the evening somewhat. So. I'm
going to leave it to the Board. here. whether they feel that this
really should be a Use Variance or not.
MR. TURNER-All right.
Any thoughts anyone?
Do you want to start out the discussion?
MR. CARVIN-Okay. Well. my feeling is that. right up front. a Use
Variance is required. The basis for my argument here is that I
- 36 -
-
think that. as you've indicated. the natural expectations of a
marina would be that this would follow into place. The problem
with that. as far as I'm concerned. is that this is not a private
marina. and that there is. whether large or small. a certain aspect
of public participation in this. and correct me if I'm wrong. I
feel that at one point. that this was a public marina. in other
words. anybody could rent slips or spaces. It then decided to
become a condo. where they were sold as ownership. and they also
have allowed public access. So it's not a pure. private situation.
In that vein. I think that any improvements does have the potential
for increased usage. and therefore I think it does fall within our
realm to look at that. this situation. from a Use Variance
perspective. That's pretty much my feeling on this. that this is
a. this will constitute an increase in usage. whether by membership
or by non membership. I think your argument would be much stronger
if it was a pure private club. but that does not appear to be the
case. So. I'm very firmly convinced that this. the Use Variance is
necessary.
MR. TURNER-I had the same feelings. because even though it's a 271
member club. it's private in the sense those 271 members own that
facility. and they're doing with the rest of it what they care to
do with it. by opening up the public participation. as far as
selling gas and other supplies that go with the boating industry.
and so forth. and allowing the access to that facility. So. it's
a multi use facility. and I think a Use Variance is required. It's
an expansion. Does anybody else have any thoughts?
MR. THOMAS-Yes. I'll agree with you and Fred. To me. the
expansion on this is just the size of the boats. and that more of
the boats have heads on them that require them to be pumped out.
The septic system. the sewer system. seems to be a big bone of
contention. I think it's something that should be looked at. but
I think the increased use of the septic system would require a
variance.
MR. TURNER-Anyone else?
MR. MENTER-To me. the big dilemma is the septic. and it's
unfortunate. because I don't really believe that it's an expansion.
I think the modifications to the economic structure of the
organization are typical. should be expected. and they have a right
to do that. so I don't think making condos out of the slips changes
the use. and they do have a right to make certain changes to
continue to exist. Again. I think the dilemma is the septic. which
there's just a lot of concern about.
MR. TURNER-Okay. Bob. do you have anything?
MR. KARPELES-Well. I agree with. pretty much. everything that's
been said. I think that the improvements have got to increase the
use. even if it doesn't increase it for the public. I think that
the people that are there are going to use the facility more often.
Alone. that would increase the usage.
MR. TURNER-Okay. Brian?
MR. O'DONNELL-I'd like to return to where I started. Regardless of
what you do tonight. the people with the power to inspect septic
systems are going to go out there and inspect. If you vote this
project down or if you vote it up. they're going to be out there.
It has nothing to do with the project which before you. and I'd
like to focus on the project which is before you. The septic
system is separate. and Harris Bay is going to have to deal with
that. With respect to the theory that it's going to increase the
use. let me ask you to consider it in parts. and ask yourself. will
the reduction in the size of the fuel storage tanks and their
movement from underground to above ground increase the use? Will
the crushed stone walkway. where there's now a parking lot increase
the use? Will the movement of the vacuum tank increase the use?
- 37 -
Will the consolidation and the screening of vending machines
increase the use? Will the screening of a recycling dumpster
increase the use? And will the addition of a handicapped ramp and
decking over the picnic area which is currently there increase the
use? If the answer to each of those questions is no. the answer to
the entire question is no. and it is no. Harris Bay is a seasonal
facility. It's owned by people who have boats. People come up
there and they get on their boats and they go boating. That's the
reason that they purchased memberships there. As a practical
matter. you see people at Harris Bay at the beginning of a weekend
and at the end of a weekend. and if you go by there in the summer
time. you'll see many boats out. That's what the people at Harris
Bay actually do. The proposals which they've made are proposals to
spend a substantial amount of money increasing the appearance. but
not increasing the use. You're gOing to have the same number of
people. all of whom will still be boaters. all of whom will still
get on their boats and go boating.
MR. CARVIN-I would agree with that assessment. if it was a limited
membership to the two hundred and some odd number of slips.
MR. O'DONNELL-And it is.
MR. CARVIN-However. it is still open to the public. In other
words. you still have public facilities that are available. and if
a person driving by in a motor boat happens to see that. and it is
available. because of anyone improvement. now I can't tell you
whether one or all are going to lure another person into that
particular marina. but I just know that. as a public facility. that
these types of improvements. if taken in total. will increase the
usage there. and. as I said. I am very strong that the Use Variance
criteria should be applied. In other words. for this Board to make
a determination to grant a Use Variance. that there has to be. and
I can read the Section. it says. "The Board of Appeals on appeal
from the decision or determination of the administrative official
charged with the enforcement of such Ordinance or local laws shall
have the power to grant Use Variances as defined here in. No such
Use Variance shall be granted by a Board of Appeals without a
showing by the applicant that the applicable zoning regulations and
restrictions have caused unnecessary hardship. In order to prove
such unnecessary hardship. the applicant shall demonstrate to the
Board of Appeals that for each and every permitted use under the
zoning regulation for the particular district where the property is
located that. One. the applicant cannot realize a reasonable return
provided by the lack of return is substantial by demonstrated by
competent financial evidence. That the alleged hardship relating
to the property in question is unique. and does not apply to a
substantial portion of the district or neighborhood. and that the
requested Use Variance. if granted. will not alter the essential
character of the neighborhood. and that the alleged hardship has
not been self-created. The Board of Appeals. in granting of Use
Variances. shall grant the minimum variance that it deems necessary
and adequate to address the unnecessary hardship proven by the
applicant and at the same time. preserve and protect "the character
of neighborhood. and the health. safety and welfare of the
communi ty. " And if the Board does agree with me that a Use
Variance is needed. then I would ask the applicant to address these
particular changes in relationship to our criteria for granting a
Use Variance.
MR. O'DONNELL-Shall I do that now?
MR. TURNER-No. I think the first thing is to.
MR. CARVIN-I think the first thing that we have to do is determine
whether the Use Variance is necessary.
MR. TURNER-Whether the Use Variance is necessary.
MR. CARVIN-Now. I don't know whether we do that by a vote. or?
- 38 -
MR. DUSEK-I would recommend a vote.
MR. TURNER-Yes.
HOTIOR THAT A USB VARIARCB RBGARDIRG APPLICATIOR RO. 111-1993 IS
RBCBSSARY. Introduced by Fred Carvin who moved for its adoption.
seconded by Theodore Turner:
The reasoning is that the cumulative effects of the proposed
changes will result in a more extensive utilization of the
facilities by both the members of the Harris Bay Yacht Club. but
more importantly will increase the potential use by non-members and
the general public.
Duly adopted this 17th day of March. 1994. by the following vote:
AYES: Mr. Karpeles. Mr. Carvin. Miss Hauser. Mr. Thomas.
Mr. Maresco. Mr. Turner
NOES: Mr. Menter
MR. TURNER-A Use Variance is required. The determination is a Use
Variance is required.
MR. O'DONNELL-Okay. Lets talk for a minute about the criteria.
Harris Bay is a member owned facility. At present. there are 210
residents. approximately. who own the slips. some own one. a few
own more. The zoning for the facility is Land Conservation 42
acres. and for a portion. it's off the map here. Waterfront
Residential One Acre. There is absolutely no permitted use under
your zoning law. as it exists today which would allow the owners of
that property to have any return of it whatsoever. The price of
the membership varies with the size of the slip. and they range
from I think 10 is low. I don't know of any that have sold for 10.
up to about $40.000. The individuals have a substantial investment
in the lake. In addition to the substantial financial investment
in the lake. the water source for Harris Bay is the lake. The
people's recreation is the lake. They swim in it. They boat in
it. They fish in it. The Clubhouse is the facility for the
members. and Harris Bay is seeking to bring the Clubhouse up to
what the Americans with Disabilities Act requires. that is
handicapped access. in the (lost word). in the showers. and the
entrance to the building. There is no way at all that that could
be accomplished without a ramp. and I believe your current building
code requires ingress and egress for multiple access. which is why
the configuration that has been proposed has been proposed. It
will tie together three of the exits to the building. It will also
provide a sitting area over what is now crushed stone picnic area.
The facility itself is unique in the Town of Queensbury. and in
fact unique on Lake George. There is no other member owned docking
facility on Lake George the conditions which require variances at
all are not self-imposed. They come with the site. It's a site
which. when created. was perfectly proper. and now is subject to
zoning restrictions which didn't exist before. The modifications
which have been sought are really quite minimal. when you think of
the site. Some of them involve reductions in what is currently
there. for example. the fuel tanks. The others are aesthetic. for
example. the screening of the vending machines and the landscaping
and the screening of the vacuum tanks. I submit to you that the
facts on the record do not support finding that any of these
modifications will increase the use by the members or by anyone
else. and I submit that. in order to maintain the financial health
of Harris Bay. in order to keep up the value of the property and
keep up the tax base necessary to pay the taxes in the Town of
Queensbury and for the school district. it's important that Harris
Bay be permitted to make aesthetic improvements to its facility.
the aesthetic improvements which have been proposed. I submit that
we have met the criteria for the granting of the Use Variance.
MR. CARVIN-I have a couple of questions. Is the Club currently in
- 39 -
financial difficulty?
MR. O'DONNELL-No.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. Will the financial health of the Club be either
increased or decreased by these particular improvements?
MR. O'DONNELL-I expect that it will be increased. Now. by not
being in financial difficulty. what I mean is the Club is paying
it's bills. The Club is a not for profit corporation. The source
of the Club's funds. overwhelmingly. is the members. and the
members have an ownership interest attributable to their dock. but
it's an undivided interest in the property as I whole. When I told
you. at the outset. that dockominium is not technically correct. it
isn't. This is more similar to a co-op. in which the individual
owns an interest in the corporation. and the corporation the
physical (lost word). In order to make the memberships more
valuable. or to have any value stand up over time. it's important
to be able to beautify the facility. and to make it accessible to
people who may have difficulties moving. and that is the type of
thing that Harris Bay is proposing in its capital improvements
project.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. Now you mentioned taxes.
distributed equally among the members?
Is the tax burden
MR. O'DONNELL-Yes. Harris Bay. in 1993.
school district over $40.000 in taxes.
gets the tax bills and pays the taxes.
the members.
paid to Queensbury and the
Harris Bay Yacht Club. Inc.
The source of the money is
MR. CARVIN-Okay. I guess the zoning regulations and restrictions
have caused unnecessary hardships. I'm not sure that by moving the
tank is the fault of the zoning. I guess. In other words. there's
nothing wrong with the tank as it is right now. is that correct?
MR. O'DONNELL-The tanks as they are right now meet all applicable
regulations. However. they are single wall steel underground fuel
storage tanks. Harris Bay proposes to change that because.
environmentally. the Club has the feeling that a double wall
containment tank is safer.
MR. TURNER-There's a pretty good liability with those tanks being
in the ground, single wall as they are, isn't that correct. also?
MR. O'DONNELL-If they leak. there's a real problem.
MR. TURNER-If they leak.
MR. O'DONNELL-They have not leaked. They're containment pressure
tested.
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. O'DONNELL-But if they leak, there's a serious problem, but
that's the reason that Harris Bay is proposing to build the double
wall containment tank. The reason it's proposed for there is
because it's out of the parking area, and here in front of it,
we're going to have steel bollards, steel cement bollards. If the
tank were to be moved to here, there's flagged wetlands right next
to this as well. If the tank were to be placed across the street,
it's doubtful that we could get permission from the Department of
Transportation to bore under the highway, and across the street is
next to flagged wetlands as well.
MR. CARVIN-Okay, but, technically. the tank could be replaced in
the current location. Is that correct?
MR. O'DONNELL-Yes, it could. That's in the middle of the parking
lot. One of the things we're trying to accomplish is get it out of
- 40 -
the parking lot.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. but again. I guess what I'm trying to determine
is. is that a hardship imposed by the Ordinance.
MR. O'DONNELL-This has nothing to do with the Use Variance. This
is Area Variance stuff.
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. O'DONNELL-And anywhere that tank goes. if the tank were left
here. it would violate a setback.
MR. TURNER-Yes. that's true. that's shoreline and rear setback.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. but I still come down to the hardest thing. in
granting this variance. is to protect the character of the
neighborhood. the health. safety and welfare of the community.
MR. O'DONNELL-If the fuel storage tanks underground leak. the leak
is going to contaminate the soil and the water. not just Harris
Bay's water. but the area's water. That's the reason that Harris
Bay wants to get them out of there.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. Again. we're going to keep coming right back to
the same issue. and that's issue of the sewage. That's the big
stumbling block about granting the Use Variance. because there
seems to be significant evidence or comment that the character of
the neighborhood would be changed. that the health. safety and
welfare of the community is in question.
MR. O'DONNELL-One thing that struck me. with the people coming up
here to comment. almost to a man. they said. I don't know. but. and
then they proceeded to tell you that they didn't like the system.
because it has a main that runs along the Department of
Transportation's right-of-way. with permit. because it crosses the
highway near the DOT culvert. with permit. because it's on a parcel
of land that's surrounded by wetlands. but there's no evidence that
it's failed. If it does fail. that's an issue that Harris Bay will
have to deal with. Regardless of what you do tonight. you can give
us permission to do everything we've asked for. You can give us
permission to do nothing. The septic system is not an issue in
this project. The project before you are the changes that are
outlined up there.
MR. CARVIN-No. but I think it is an issue before the Board. because
before we can grant the variance. I think I want to be satisfied
that the health. safety and welfare of the community is not in
jeopardy. and I think that the issue is that there will be an
expansion of use there.
MR. O'DONNELL-I disagree with you there. and I submit there's
absolutely no evidence. not a single fact. that's been placed
before you. that supports that. not one.
MR. DUSEK-If I may jump in here. maybe. I think that the Board.
since you've determined that a Use Variance is necessary. I think
what you need to do is take a look at what has been offered to you.
in terms of proof. testimony. records that are before you
concerning the project. and ask yourself the questions that are
posed in the law. which is. One. for instance. has the applicant
shown you that they can't realize a reasonable return. all right?
In other words. forgetting about the sewage for a moment. looking
at the facility. they're saying. we want a Use Variance to put
these facilities in. Well. in order for you to say. yes. you can
do that. the law says you have to look at. can they not realize a
reasonable return as they are currently situated? Do they need
this to make a reasonable return? Has there been evidence
submi tted before you. and the law goes on to say. it must be
demonstrated. be substantial as demonstrated by competent financial
- 41 -
evidence. What do you have for financial evidence before you right
now? I know you have the testimony of an attorney. I presume. are
you a member of the Club?
MR. O'DONNELL-Yes. I am.
MR. DUSEK-Okay. So you have an attorney and a member of the Club
who's given some testimony as to financial. I don't know whatever
else your records show. but the question you have to ask yourself
is. has the applicant demonstrated that he cannot realize a
reasonable return without these improvements? That's a question
for you folks to answer. Number Two is that the hardship relating
to the property is unique. Three. that the requested Use Variance
will not alter the character of the neighborhood. Will allowing
the various improvements alter the character of the neighborhood.
in and of themselves. or you've indicated concerns about an
increase in the numbers of people. etc. Four. that the hardship.
is it self created. I think if you just ask yourselves those
questions as compared to exactly what the variance is. you may be
able to work yourselves right through the process easier. and
obviously if one of those or all of those elements haven't been
shown. then that would indicate you to one result. If you feel all
of those elements have been shown. then you'll go to another
result. Then you have to ask yourselves last. I guess. is it the
minimum. I think you've got to get through the first four
questions first. I think. in looking at the general Use Variance
that's been requested. just go right down through and either
they've been met or they haven't been met by the proof that's
before you.
MISS HAUSER-I don't think that we can answer some of those
questions unless we have more information on the septic system.
It's been brought up in different meetings by different people that
the septic system is adequate or it's not inadequate. but we don't
have any records as to what is actually there. and the point was
brought up tonight. has the Town collected information on the water
inspections. If the Town hasn't. maybe the applicant can provide
us with that information. because I can't answer the se other
questions unless I know something about the water quality and how
it's being effected.
MR. O'DONNELL-As far as I know. all the tests that have been taken
by any agency with the authority to go out there and take it have
shown that the system is working properly. Harris Bay. to my
knowledge. has never received an order to close or to do anything
with the septic system. In the course of this project. we have
looked for engineering drawing of the septic system. and weren't
able to find any. It was put in before Harris Bay Yacht Club
became Harris Bay Yacht Club. We have talked to the people who put
it in. and we've been told what the system contains. It's the pump
and the line. and there are septic tanks gOing into leaching tanks.
MISS HAUSER-And what are the size of those tanks?
MR. O'DONNELL-Thousand gallon tanks.
MISS HAUSER-How many?
MR. O'DONNELL-Three.
MISS HAUSER~To support 210 boats?
MR. TURNER-The membership's 271. that's the total amount of slips.
and there's 15 slips that they rent in the summer. Is that
correct?
MR. O'DONNELL-We understand. also. that this leach field is firm in
clay. and I don't know whether sand was imported or whether it was
natural soil that was out there. In considering the use of the
septic system. you have to consider how the facility is used. and
- 42 -
that is primarily on the weekends. On the weekends, you get heavy
use. During the week, very little use, and in the months outside
of June, July, and August, very little use at all.
MR. KARPELES-Have you ever considered going to holding tanks? From
all the testimony here tonight, it would appear that that's the
accepted practice. Have you investigated the price?
MR. O'DONNELL-No, we have not.
MR. KARPELES-It would seem as though that would make your neighbors
much happier.
MR. O'DONNELL-Obviously, this year there's going to have to be an
investigation, because we're going to be crawling with septic
inspectors, but up to this point, no. The system, as far as we
know, is functioning as it was designed to do, and functioning
properly, and we know of no evidence to the contrary.
MR. KARPELES-Well, I think just the fact of when it was put in and
what it was put in for, the number of people, will raise questions
right off the bat, as to whether it's adequate or not.
MR. O'DONNELL-It's my understanding that it was put in at a time
when the size of the facility was essentially the same as it is
today, and the fact that a boat is 26 feet as opposed to 20 feet
doesn't do anything for the size of the septic system. It's the
number of boats.
MR. KARPELES-Age alone would have an effect on the septic system.
MR. O'DONNELL-As I said, regardless of what you do tonight, the
system is going to get inspected, and, in fact, last night I was in
a meeting at the North Queensbury Firehouse where Warren County was
discussing its overall Master Plan to deal with sewage disposal in
the Lake George Basin. Harris Bay's Board of Directors would be
very supportive of a sewer system, and one of the things that ~
think should be done by the engineers doing this Environmental
Impact Study is a failure analysis of all the systems in that area
and the Lake George Basin. One of the options they're going to
consider is the doing nothing option, and they should know how the
systems are working, not just Harris Bay's, all of them. Lets face
it, the water quality in Lake George is effected not just by septic
systems, and not just by Harris Bay's septic system. It's effected
by stormwater runoff to a much greater extent, and nothing in this
project and nothing any of us here tonight can do is going to
change that. The project is just what's been proposed to you.
MR. CARVIN-If the Use Variance were turned down, to what extent do
you think the Club would suffer a financial setback?
MR. O'DONNELL-If the Use
understanding that the Use
the shed, and nothing else.
and that's my understanding
that?
Variance was turned down, it's my
Variance is required for the deck and
That's all Mr. Martin's told me about,
of your resolution. Am I correct about
MR. TURNER-The tank is an Area Variance.
MR. CARVIN-The tank is an Area Variance?
MR. TURNER-Yes, and the shed's an Area Variance.
MR. CARVIN-It's listed under the Use.
MR. TURNER-The tank is?
MR. CARVIN-Yes, a 6,000 gallon concrete above ground fuel tank.
That's under the Use Variance.
- 43 -
MR. TURNER-That's the general description. That's a general
description of the whole project. but if you look over here and
read the other.
MR. CARVIN-That's for the Area Variance.
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. CARVIN-That's for the setbacks.
MR. TURNER-Yes. the setbacks of the tank. yes.
MR. CARVIN-But again. if it ~ turned down. would you have any
idea of what the financial impact might be?
MR. O'DONNELL-It would not be positive. I can tell you that. In
dollars and cents. I can't. and I also can't tell you whether
Harris Bay's Board would simply abandon the project. do absolutely
none of this stuff and continue to operate just as it has been.
MR. CARVIN-Well. if the Use Variance ~ passed. do you have any
concrete financial documents that would support your position?
MR. O'DONNELL-The cost of the slips. the number of the slips. is
concrete evidence to the value. I do not have an analysis of how
the values would change with the additions. It's quite subjective.
The changes will make the place appear nicer. It's not going to
get any more people in there. The people who are there will have
a nicer looking facility and a nicer functioning facility. That I
expect will enhance the value of the memberships. but I don't
believe that there's any way to tell you how much.
MR. TURNER-You're claiming you're paying $40.000 in taxes. To what
degree does the sale of gasoline and other products contribute to
the overall picture. the income of the Club?
MR. O'DONNELL-The sale of gasoline is about $50.000 a year.
MR. CARVIN-And you said that that's a substantial portion. before.
I believe?
MR. TURNER-Yes. That's what he said.
MR. CARVIN-The majority is sold to the members?
MR. O'DONNELL-The majority of gas is sold to the members. but a
significant portion of it is sold to other people.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. I guess I want. the $50.000. is that a total
figure. or is that just the genera~ public?
MR. O'DONNELL-That's a total figure.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. and. again. how would you define substantial? We
have to have competent financial evidence. I mean. substantial
could be anything from one percent to fifty percent.
MR. O'DONNELL-I'm not certain of the figure. I believe probably
non members purchase around 25 percent of gasoline.
MR. TURNER-Okay. Does anyone else have anything else?
Okay. Are we going to move it?
MR. MENTER-Just to clarify this. the Use Variance is referring only
to the shed and the deck. right?
None?
MR. TURNER-No.
MR. CARVIN-No. no.
broader.
According to the application. it's much
- 44 -
MR. TURNER-They've got the tank listed.
MR. CARVIN-Basically, the Use Variance, if I've got the right one.
I mean, I've got about 14 corrections here.
MR. MENTER-Those were the two areas
right? Jim, wasn't that the original
and the deck, they were the two
Variance?
that were cited as required,
interpretation, that the shed
things that required a Use
MR. MARTIN-That's correct.
MR. CARVIN-The attached narrative, the proposed use of the
property, no change is proposed. improvements are to upgrade the
quality of the facility. So I think, by implication, so, is a
reasonable return is possible if the land is not used as zoned, and
then, see attached narrative. There's no, the narrative goes into
all of the areas.
MR. MENTER-I'm just trying to isolate the points of that Variance,
because they're sort of all tossed together in the same, in the Use
Variance application.
MR. TURNER-I think the Use Variance applies to just what it says,
the deck and the shed. The tank is an Area Variance, because they
already have a tank there, and they just want to move it so they're
violating the setback.
MR. MENTER-Right. That's my interpretation of what's going on.
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. MENTER-It doesn't seem to be documented quite that way, though.
MR. TURNER-No.
MR. CARVIN-It sure isn't.
MR. TURNER-It's just a general narrative telling you the same thing
twice.
MR. CARVIN-Well, does that also include the sidewalk, or the
walkway?
MR. MARTIN-Ted, were you going to read the letters in before you
get much farther?
MR. TURNER-Yes. Lets go ahead with the letters.
MR. CARVIN-Okay.
MR. TURNER-We're going to try to condense the letters and just try
to highlight the issues that are in the letters and who they're
from, because we've got quite a few letters.
CORRESPORDBRCB
MISS HAUSER-Okay. The first is from Dr. Robert Evans, it says.
"I've been following the Harris Bay Yacht Club for nearly 10 years.
I have walked the current septic line multiple times and through
the years this has been repaired time after time. We have had
mul tiple evidences of leaks from this line in the past and how
Harris Bay ever got permission from the DEC to put this expansive
line beneath the road, up the swamp and got away with the current
system they are using is beyond me. In any event and without
question from all I have read in their current application it
appears that there will be increasing use in this area. I have
seen this club under water year after year and they really should
have a holding tank that is pumped out. It is questionable whether
the marginal system they are using really is currently operating.
- 45 -
The current septic system is certainly inadequate by 1990 for
standards. I would strongly urge the board to review their
application in light of the increasing use and the need to bring
them up to date in terms of 1994 standards for septic treatment.
I would also appreciate being present at the time of the next
hearing. Perhaps your office could contact me. Sincerely. Robert
L. Evans. D.O." That was dated March 10th. The second is from
Charles Locke. it's dated March 17th. It says. "I am the third
generation in my family to have been raised every summer at our
home on Hillman Road. Cleverdale. I wish to add my voice to the
chorus of neighbors who oppose the request of the Harris Bay Yacht
Club ("HBYC") for an Area and Use Variance. Certainly.
improvements by a property owner are to be encouraged provided they
do not adversely effect the Lake or the neighboring properties.
However. no single property in the past ten years has impacted
Harris Bay more than the HBYC. It is indisputable that the boat
traffic has increased significantly over the years due to its
presence and expansion. I share the very real concern that the
proposed changes to the HBYC's facilities will exacerbate the boat
and traffic congestion. and. most importantly. further burden the
ecology of the Bay. I understand that HBYC does not propose any
improvements to its existing septic system and that a review of the
system is not permitted in the absence of any anticipated increase
in utilization of the facilities. I fervently hope that the
Planning Board will consider all of the proposed changes as a whole
in determining whether they will result in increased usage. Taken
in context. the proposed modifications to the parking area.
walkways. addition of a covered terrace. and any improvements to
the interior effecting or expanding the kitchen or rest room
facilities. will no doubt make the facility more attractive. In so
doing. however. it will necessarily increase utilization. Although
technically the HBYC may be a "not-for-profit" organization. it is
by no means a private club in the same sense as the Lake George
Club. but rather. it clearly encourages public use (i.e. fuel sales
and sewage pump-out services) and derives a portion of its revenues
from the public. The prospect of the Club eventually providing
means and/or entertainment to the public as well as to members and
guests on the proposed terrace conjures images of the crowds at
establishments such as the Algonquin in Bolton Landing. The
argument that these improvements will not increase usage and.
hence. not effect the septic situation in our fragile Bay is not
credible. It flies in the face of the experiences encountered by
other locales on the Lake. Secondly. those portions of the HBYC's
proposal which effect the ambiance of this predominantly
residential area should not be permitted. In such instances. there
are alternative means to accomplish the Club's goals. For example.
the proposed lighting of the parking area using high pressure
sodium vapor lights mounted on twenty foot poles would certainly be
a disturbance to the immediate neighbors and would create a
shopping mall climate. Instead. low level lighting would
accomplish the same purpose without impinging on the Club's
neighbors or creating an eyesore for residents and visitors
travelling along Route 9L. Similarly. allowing the Club to place
vending machines and garish signage (i. e. neon and florescent
advertising) only serves to denigrate the Adirondack ambience of
this residential community. Surely machines and signage could be
located inside the Club's facilities. We. the residents and
homeowners of Harris Bay. look to you and members of the Planning
Board as the "guardians" of the environment and bucolic character
of this Bay. Our area remains a model of controlled growth and
change while maintaining the unspoiled nature of our area. I am
not opposed to progress or improvement but I am very wary of the
blight of "creeping commercialism" which has effected other regions
around the Lake. Thusfar. our residential area has retained its
original character. As I am sure you are aware. decisions by your
Department can and will have a long lasting effect on our quality
of life and are not easily reversed. Please consider carefully the
ramifications of the HBYC's proposals. When you do. I hope you
will decline to approve the requested variances for the reasons
stated so that we may preserve the ecology and beauty of Harris Bay
- 46 -
for future generations. Very truly yours. Charles T. Locke" The
next letter is from John Skinner. III. who spoke tonight. "I am
very disturbed to see the proposed changes for Harris Bay Yacht
Club. The situation there is already a travesty. The flooding
that occurs over ground that is covered with the oil and grease
from cars and boats parked there in the summer and winter. cause
these elements to enter the lake. I can't imagine where the septic
goes from this operation. If you look at early aerial photos of
Lake George sites where fill has been used you can see where it has
fil tered into the lake. Adding fill to this area is not the
solution. This facility is in an area of very delicate balance
because it is a wetland area. so anything done here should have the
closest scrutiny of all agencies involved. I happen to live on
Cleverdale and the depth of the water does not exceed fifty feet
between the point and Long Island. I have a submersive water pump
with a filter in the basement. In the summer the large cruisers
from Harris Bay churn up the bottom so much that I must change my
filter weekly. These large boats and increased usage will carry
the fill further and further into an already distressed bay. You
might want to look at the Freshwater Institutes study of the lake.
It doesn't bode well for the future. and I believe it mandates you
to make very careful decisions where Lake George is concerned.
Lake George is too important to the economy of the region. and
something we need to care for as we care for our children. because
they are our future. Respectfully. John Skinner III. Cleverdale.
NY John Skinner. Sr. Pilot Knob. NY" The next person who was not
here this evening. Charles Freihofer. III. letter's dated March
8th. written to Joe Roulier. "Dear Joe. Thank you for sharing your
letter of March 7th and the related material of February 22nd
relative to The Harris Bay Yacht Club application with me. While
I am all in favor of anyone improving their property. especially
for the good of the community. there are some points here which I
think do merit some special consideration. 1. I found the issue
regarding the fill to be interesting and I might say from
observations along the Intercoastal Waterway. sadly on the mark.
If my suspicions are correct they will most likely be confirmed by.
as you suggest. a thorough evaluation by (more) qualified persons.
2. The septic system also poses an interesting. to me at least.
questions. If your points are accurate. one can only surmise that
the authorities (Lake George Park Commission?) have ignored both
the issue and their responsibility. which from what I've seen in
some other instances does not surprise me. The good news. however.
is that this is Queensbury; and we both know from experience that
Queensbury will enforce the rules. 3. The sign issue is sadly
humorous - "Lake George Village comes to the East Side". Sounds
like the time is finally right for us to open that T-Shirt Shop up
on Assembly Point. Your position is of course correct but... 4.
The tax situation is quite intriguing and I'm sure that if pursued
could provide employment for several attorneys until something more
lucrative comes along. Seriously. Joe. this is not an easy one.
As I recall. the boat slips at Harris Bay were sold to individuals
on a sort of condominium type basis; as a matter of fact I
distinctly remember hearing the term "boataminium" as first being
applied to this project. If so. the question then naturally
follows - why are they not valued and taxed individually to the
owner like condominiums and houses. Of course. the value of the
boat (at least those with live aboard facilities) should be
included. You are not going to make any friends by raising this
one Joe. On the one hand. you are going to alienate those who live
on the boats - a $100.000+ (in many cases) residence with for all
practical purposes. no property taxes. Not bad! On the other hand
are an awful lot of Queensbury residents living in a lot less than
a $100.000 boat who are paying their property taxes and are already
unhappy with those who live up at the lake; and if they found out
about this... Well. Joe . it could be messy. There are several
matters which you raised which I did not address because I believe
that they can be very easily and satisfactorily resolved. It is
important to keep in mind that you are dealing with several very
separate issues here; and they should not be considered as a
"package" or you stand to lose some in compromising. One last
- 47 -
observation. Experience in other areas compels me to ask why, when
one considers the proximity to large areas which must be considered
"wetlands", these situations even exist. Hopefully, the
authorities will correct the situation now; leaving it to the
future will only make the inevitable more costly and unpleasant for
all (except the attorneys). Yours truly, Charles" The next letter
is dated March 14th, from Theodore Arnstein, "Dear Mr. Martin: I
have spent 71 summers on Harris Bay (not counting the Way Years)
The Boat Yard now known as Harris Bay should never have been built
in the first place. It is on filled land which is an important
wetlands area. Any "improvements" or changes only encourages more
use of this facility to detriment of Lake George. Harris Bay
unlike Dunhams Bay is very shallow particularly for the first mile.
On summer weekends the bottom is so churned up that one can not see
deeper than 2 or 3 feet as opposed to 20 or 30 feet in the off
season. Large clumps of seaweed cut by boat propellers pile up on
my small beach. Rocks and boat bottoms are covered by algae partly
stirred up by boat movements from this large boat storage. Please
do not let them expand further. Send the message that we want to
keep Lake George at least the way it is. Much of the tax base in
Queensbury (about 1/3 comes from lake front properties not to
mention the Town's economy) depends on the quality and value of
properties. Say no our children (yours and mine) will thank you.
Very truly yours, Thomas G. Arnstein P.S. I know from our service
together last summer on the sewer committee that you see the danger
of the constant expansion on the Lake. Here is something that can
be done about it." The next letter is from Robert O'Brien, March
15th, 1994. It says, "I am a year-long resident of Cleverdale in
the Town of Queensbury, and I am concerned with any change to the
HBYC in the form of Area Variance or Use Variance. My reasons are
numerous: 1 - As you know, this entire premise was born from a
swamp. All one has to do is drive past this marina in the early
Spring, and one views most of the facility under from one to three
feet of water. What affect does this have on our lake waters,
specifically from the oil and gas, plus other debris left over from
the daily and seasonal use of the premises? 2 - Septic and sewage
problems - I personally have observed foul sewage and sewer odors
from the south side of Route 9L, directly opposite this premises.
I can't believe the wet lands are being properly protected. 3-
Traffic congestion during the summer is already too much! Many
weekends, if not everyone between July 4th and Labor Day, cars are
parked on the shoulders of Route 9L causing a serious safety
problem. I could recite other problems which exist under current
conditions, and which should have been addressed before now, and
which have not. However, it is very clear to me that allowing any
Variance to either Area or Use, would only further increase the
existing concerns enumerated above. As a resident of the Town of
Queensbury; a tax payer; a voter; and last but in no way least, a
lover of Lake George, please do not approve these Variances, but
indeed, encourage the proper use for not only short term, but long
term a well, of the existing facilities at the HBYC. Thank you for
your consideration. Respectfully, Robert J. O'Brien Cleverdale,
NY" The next letter is dated March 12th, and it's from Richard
Meyer. It says, "Dear Mr. Martin: I am writing in opposition to
application of Harris Bay Yacht Club as a resident on Harris Bay.
More specifically I raise the following objections: 1. The
purpose of the deck and awning is to increase the use of the
facili ty. This will increase the load on the septic system,
increase traffic congestion & increase noise level. It will
especially appeal to pump out customers putting an even greater
load on the septic system. 2. The fuel tank will be obvious and
ugly. It will be too close to the lake thus increasing impact of
spill from tank and loading tankers. Why not put it across the
street where both tank and tankers will be out of the way and less
likely to affect traffic, environment and aesthetics? 3. The
lighting is too much and too high. We don't need every homeowner
in the neighborhood to be bothered by such a glow in the sky. 4.
An attractive building sign will be an improvement but only if you
get rid of the gas and other ugly, garish neon signs that exist.
5. Fill addition will not solve their problem. They are on a bog
- 48 -
----- -----
_._---_.__._.~_._,
which continually subsides with their heavy use. Adding fill will
merely force additional organic bog material out into the water of
the lake. Don't allow it. 6. The most critical item is the
septic system. Do you know that the existing system is safe for
current use? I think not. Before increasing septic load due to
increased use you must test the existing system under full load use
and do whatever is necessary to make it safe. We draw our water
from Harris Bay and I don't want to drink their waste especially
with the added chemicals due to come from increased pump out use.
Their are serious defects and oversights in this application and if
you don't correct them who will? Sincerely. Richard A. Meyer" the
next letter is dated March 11th. from Raymond Roulier. "This letter
is to object to those items proposed by the Harris Bay Yacht Club
as outlined in the Variance Application for what they refer to as
"site improvements". 1 - A waterfront walkway will require more
crushed stone fill. Year after year "HBYC" continues to fill the
Lake in order to provide parking space for its members. The
continued addition of crushed stone is compressing the silt that
has accumulated for years and pushing it out further in the bay.
In essence not only are they limiting the purifying factor of this
sil t. but they are literally filling in the Lake. 2. Proposed
fuel tank location. If a new tank is to be installed let it be
well away from the Lake. In spite of certain precautions.
accidents resulting in leaks seeping into the Lake are always a
possibility and should be a foremost consideration. 3. Parking
Lot Light - Forget it. Who needs a "Super Market Parking Lot".
The area was meant to be attractive. The same goes for the
building mounted sign. Leave the lights and the signs at the
Village. While it is not part of the proposal I would suggest that
the town inspect the Septic System currently in use by HBYC. It is
my understanding that there are 271 dock spaces. and they all
appear to be filled. If each space is represented by a member and
their guests in many instances the septic system is getting a work
out well beyond the capacity of the system. Where does the
overflow go? In the Lake. In addition to the personal use of the
restroom facilities the HBYC also provides a pump out service not
only to its members but also to the general public. Now we're
talking serious sewage. I live on Harris Bay. It's a beautiful
bay. I would like to see it remain so. The HBYC should be
restricted from going any farther than it has for the good of the
Lake and the surrounding area. Sincerely. Raymond J. Roulier P.O.
Box 233 Cleverdale. N.Y." Another letter on March 11th. from an Ed
and Marge Doyle "I would like to take the opportunity to add my
comments to the Harris Bay Yacht Club improvements. The Lake and
surrounding environments are currently threatened by the Harris Bay
Yacht Club (HBYC) and its acti vi ties. Si te Improvements as
outlined in the Variance Application Project Narrative would
promote increased use of the HBYC facility. Increased use in all
probability will lead to environmental violations. These
violations could be avoided if the Board chooses to deny the
request for improvements. Property Owners in the lower Harris Bay
area suffer from lower property values due to the presence of the
Harris Bay Yacht Club ( i. e.) Visual Impact (size) noise from
activities. and heavy boat traffic in lower Harris Bay.
Improvements as suggested in the HBYC Narrative will promote
increased use of the HBYC. and further aggravate the situation as
described above. Thanking you for the opportunity to comment. E.
Doyle 129 Roosevelt Rd. Hyde Park. NY 12538" Next letter is from
Karl Kroetz who spoke this evening. "Dear Mr. Martin: I am very
concerned about the action the Planning Board has taken in regard
to the proposed 5 to 7 year Master Plan to upgrade and rehabilitate
the facilities of the Harris Bay Yacht Club (HBYC). It was
shocking to me to be present at the February 22 meeting of the
Planning Board to see them give SEQR approval for the project.
Those of us who live at Harris Bay and are familiar with the
problems. believe that the approval of this project will have a
detrimental short term and long term impact on the lake. The HBYC
is by far the largest marina on the lake. with the dockage for 272
boats. most of which are equipped with toilets. cooking facilities.
etc. The sewage disposal system for all these boats. plus the
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clubhouse toilet facilities and the public boat pump-out
facilities. all ends up across the road in the wetlands. All of
the other area marinas (Mooring Post. Castaway. Lake George Boat.
Co.. Dunhams Bay Boat Co.. Fisher's Marina) have boat pump-out
facilities which discharge into holding tanks. The sewage is then
taken by tank truck to a proper disposal site away from the lake.
It is inconceivable to me that the Town Attorney and Planning Board
agreed with the HBYC position that the Town has no authority to
determine or even discuss the adequacy of the present sewage
disposal system. May I remind you of the hundreds of people who
live along the shores of Harris Bay that depend on the lake for
their drinking water. I respectfully request that the Town not
approve any part of the HBYC Master Plan until the Town can
determine that the existing sewage system is not polluting the lake
or the wetlands. and that it can also safely handle the increase in
activity and use resulting from the proposed 5 to 7 year Master
Plan. Sincerely. Karl C. Kroetz" The next letter is from Judy and
William Wetherbee. It's dated March 16th. "We write to express
our profound concerns over and objections to the proposed
rehabilitation and renovation measures described and discussed in
the Harris Bay Yacht Club's Variance Application Project Narrative
submitted to the Town of Queensbury. We have been Harris Bay
property owners since 1962 and have been year-round permanent
residents of that property since 1976. We believe that the Harris
Bay Yacht Club's lengthy period of development and growth and its
many "improvement projects" have served only to damage and/or
destroy the environment and ecology of Harris Bay and the southeast
basin of Lake George. It is time for our governmental
representatives to demonstrate wisdom and fortitude to say. with
respect to this facility. "Enough is enough." We have reviewed the
Variance Application Project Narrative as well as written narrative
responses forwarded to the Queensbury Planning Board by the Lake
George Association. Mr. John Salvador. Jr.. and Mr. Joseph Roulier.
While we do not represent ourselves as scientists or environmental
engineers. a few common sense observations are blatantly obvious to
all residents of Harris Bay and anyone else who has the interest to
observe the impact that the Harris Bay Yacht Club has had and
continues to have upon this locality. The facility is a source of
alarming visual pollution. Efforts to maintain the grounds.
especially the parking areas. have produced consequences which
surely have compromised the quality of Harris Bay and its waters.
The degree and nature of marine traffic which the facility
generates are a continuing source of shoreline damage. erosion. and
related problems. Despite the Project Narrative's implicit
contentions that the proposed steps are intended only to address
problems at or with the facility. the actual consequences are not
difficult to project: growth. more (or continued) threats to the
environment. added visual pollution. and further indifference to
those who own property and reside on Harris Bay. In all
probabili ty. had current-day environmental knowledge. thinking. and
standards existed when what is now the Harris Bay Yacht Club was
conceived. it is highly unlikely that anything other than the
original wetlands would now exist at that location. Clearly. it
does exist and it is going to neither recede nor "go away".
However. does this mean we must ignore what history has taught us
about the fragile nature of the environment? We believe it is time
that the objectives of the Harris Bay Yacht Club be measured
against the concerns of all citizens. not only its owners and
members. We. like other Harris Bay residents. lack the resources
which a business can muster to employ legal counsel to prepare
polished narratives which seemingly respond to variance
requirements. However. our resources are being used to finance
governmental representatives and agencies whose task it is to
balance the equation between power and people. It is our hope and
expectation that you will respond to this challenge accordingly.
Thank you. Sincerely. Judy S. Wetherbee William B Wetherbee"
Another letter by Linda and Mark McCollister. It's dated March
16th. "Dear Mr. Martin: We are writing to register our opposition
to the changes proposed by the HBYC. We are deeply concerned by
this obvious attempt to avoid public scrutiny of the project by
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submi tting this application in the off season. when many area
residents are away. This concern is compounded by the revelation
that an upgrade of the existing septic system is. technically
considered ·unnecessary· and the ridiculously low tax assessment
on this commercial property. Having recently found it necessary to
replace our septic tank. we are well aware of the demands placed
upon a homeowner to comply with these regulations. How can any
responsible town official claim that a review of the sewage system.
for a facility with this concentration of use - is not required?
Now we discover this facility and the many boat owners are taxed
but a small fraction of our rates and they expect relief from town
setback requirements. The tax assessment on this property is an
insul t to every shoreline property owner in North Queensbury.
Despite HBYC claims to the contrary. these changes will encouraged
increase use of this facility. There is no other reasonable
justification for this level of expenditure. In the last few years
we have witnessed first hand. persistent increases in the size of
boats docked and stored at this facility. This increase in size
must translate into more people. more pump-outs and more traffic.
Just look at the number of boats stored in-the-water. this year;
Too big to remove? Too large for the storage area available?
Perhaps the actual number of boat slips has not increased. but we
all know there are many more people using this facility. These may
sound like emotional arguments. unrelated to the technical issues -
but they frame our feelings about the specific changes. We wish to
record our express objections to the following; Fuel Tank Location:
We are opposed to the installation of an above ground fuel tank on
the property North of RT. 9L. This will be an eye-sore and is
unnecessary. The existing location has worked well for years and
there is ample real estate across the road if an above ground tank
is necessary. Bxpanded Deck & Awning: There are no doubt several
more effective means to add ramp access to the clubhouse. without
expanding the deck. awning and fill along the shoreline. This
condition existed when the facility was purchased. there is no
hardship that should warrant a variance. Lighting: Improved
lighting may be appropriate. but we oppose the addition of 12' high
fixtures or other such arrangements. This will result in general
illumination of the entire area. creating an ugly night-time glow
for all area residents. Accent lightening of the clubhouse
you've got to be kidding I Shed: We oppose the expansion of this
shed for vending machines. Here again. there is ample space in the
existing facility for this type of service. This expansion is
merely for convenience and there is no hardship that would
necessitate a variance from setback requirements. Frankly. the
entire plan seems destine to promote a significant increase in the
commercial activity of this facility. Every aspect is intended to
create more convenient access. for boat owners and the general
public. As year-round residents. we look to the Town of Queensbury
to provide leadership in enforcing Town laws and protecting our
environment & community. We urge you to reject the HBYC proposal
and to insist upon a plan of action that complies with our zoning
ordinances. Sincerely. Linda McCollister Mark McCollister"
MR. TURNER-All right. What's the Board feel as far as the Use
Variance goes? Do you want to deal with it tonight. or do you want
to review it?
MR. THOMAS-I'd rather chew on it for awhile.
MR. TURNER-I kind of would myself.
MR. MENTER-I would just like to make one comment. and this 1s
something. also. that should be chewed on for awhile. It seems
like there may be an opportunity somewhere here. if Harris Bay is
willing to work something out. perhaps. with the septic. or at
least discuss it. rather than possibly just deny the whole thing
and leave things status quo as they are. There may be an
opportunity to give and take where you could have an end. better
situation than you have. rather than just leave it go. however that
works.
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MR. TURNER-Clean up the whole situation.
MR. MENTER-Well, yes, if that's something that can be worked into
that, beneficial to both interests. That's not something that I'm
talking about doing tonight, but it's just that, if there's an
opportunity there, I'd hate to see that passed up.
MR. CARVIN-While we're chewing, I'd like to throw out the issue of,
that this situation will probably evolve over several years, and I
know that I have somewhat of a challenge about granting a blank
check, essentially, or passing a variance on something that may not
be constructed for several years down the line. So if we're going
to be chewing, I think we ought to be chewing on that.
MR. TURNER-Yes. I know at the Planning Board, on the SEQRA Review
level, that they indicated seven years was more appropriate than
what they asked for, I think, initially.
MR. O'DONNELL-We didn't ask for a specific period of time.
MR. TURNER-Well, you indicated, I think somebody said something
about five years, and you said, no, I'd rather have seven years.
MR. O'DONNELL-Initially, Harris Bay's Board was thinking this would
take five years. The length of time it takes is going to depend on
the cost, because the money's being raised through the membership.
Your regulations permit and actually require an applicant to come
before you with the entire project and get whatever permits are
required at one point, and then go forward. Under your
regulations, as long as the applicant starts the project within a
year of the granted permit, it has as long as it needs to finish
it, and that's what Harris Bay is seeking.
MR. TURNER-That's your position, then?
MR. O'DONNELL-That's our position.
MR. TURNER-Okay.
MR. CARVIN-I don't know if we want to address it in the whole or in
the part, is what it basically boils down to.
MR. TURNER-Does anyone else have any feelings about it?
MR. MENTER-Referring to what, on the whole or on the part, the
separate issues, there?
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. CARVIN-In other words, fine. If they feel that the deck is
what the project's going to be this year, then the deck is granted,
and then the next year, if they're going to feel that the gas tank
is going to be the issue, then, fine, grant it at that point.
MR. MARTIN-This came up in the past, at some point in the
discussion of this, and I suggested, I can't remember if it was to
this Board or the Planning Board, because they have Site Plan
Review over this. I feel very uncomfortable, as an enforcement
agent for the Town, given what I've seen in the past happen, that
we would give approval to such a project of such length and
magnitude. Although Brian is correct about the time frames that he
just quoted, you also have the power, as you know, with certain
conditions that would place maybe a conceptual approval. at this
point, with a final approval of the phase in the future to come at
that point when it's going to actually be put into place. So I
think it was the Planning Board I suggested that conceptual
approval be given to the later phases, then require the applicant
to come back for final approval, because who knows what the
enforcement will be at that time, who the person will be checking
on that, how thorough the understanding will be of the intent and
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feeling of the Board at that time. several years down the road. I
just think it would be better to have them come back and even if
it's. essentially. a short presentation. reiterating what was said
ini tia11y. I think it would be worth while. at least from an
enforcement standpoint. to make sure that what was actually
approved is actually put in place seven years down the road.
MR. O'DONNELL-Let me suggest to you. that's not necessary. What
Harris Bay has done is come to the Town of Queensbury with the
entire program now. If permits are granted. that's what Harris Bay
is permitted to do and that's what Harris Bay is going to go do.
It's not going to change two years from now or three years from
now. Requiring Harris Bay to come back multiple times is going to
do two things. It's going to increase the time and expense that
you and Harris Bay has to put into this. and it's gOing to delay
the project. because whatever money is required to go into soft
costs. is not available to do the improvements. The facts aren't
going to change. The project isn't going to change. If the Town
enforcement people want to take a look at what's being proposed.
that's what it's going to be and that's what it's going to stay.
The entire record is here. They can come out two years from now.
three years from now. however many years from now. and take a look.
and see whether what was done is what was permitted. Multiple
trips through the Planning process are not going to add anything of
value to this.
MR. TURNER-I don't think it's necessary for you to come back every
time. but I do say this. and I agree with Fred. I think over the
long haul. I think what should happen is you should have your
phases organized. You should come and get your permit for your
phase. your first phase. when that's completed. and they inspect
it. and you meet all the criteria for that phase. then you get your
next phase. and do it that way. Not make you come back.
MR. MENTER-And not subject to full review each time?
MR. TURNER-No. no. not make them come back. but if they change it.
then they come back.
MR. O'DONNELL-If the project is changed. obviously. we'd have to
come back.
MR. TURNER-Right. you'd have to come back. but I'm saying. every
time you start a phase. you finish that phase. you don't go to the
next phase until it's totally inspected. you meet the criteria for
that phase. then you go to the next phase.
MR. O'DONNELL-I don't think Harris Bay would have a problem with
that. as long as Harris Bay gets.
MR. TURNER-I mean. that would give them a handle on it. They'd
know what you had to do the first phase. and so on. and every
initial phase after that.
MR. O'DONNELL-As long as Harris Bay gets all the permits that are
required up front. I don't think there's any problem in putting off
Phase II until Phase I is completed.
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. O'DONNELL-What I want to avoid is multiple trips through this
process. with the uncertainty and expense that is involved.
MR. TURNER-Right. I don't think you have to come back. like you
say. unless you change something. and then you'll have to come
back.
MR. O'DONNELL-Right. If we change something. we'll have to come
back.
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MR. TURNER-Yes.
MRS. MONAHAN-Mr. Chairman. may I ask a question, please? Did if
Harris Bay gets all their permits now, and construction of one
phase doesn't start until seven years from now, will he be bound to
do only today's standards. or will he have to comply with any
increased standards that we make around the lakes at that time?
MR. O'DONNELL-If I may, Mr. Chairman, we're applying under the
Zoning Ordinance as it exists today. Your law allows us to make
that application and requires you to act on it. Once the permit is
granted. if we start within a year, under your law, we're allowed
to continue, and you're required to allow us to continue.
MR. TURNER-He's right.
MRS. MONAHAN-That may give you a clue as to why he's asking for
permission for what may not be done until seven years from now. I
ask you to look at this Town, and if all this Town were developed
under our standards seven years back, what kind of conditions would
we have in the Town?
MR. O'DONNELL-The reason I'm asking for the period of time is if
Harris Bay was rolling in money and it was no object, we could do
all this in a year. That's not the case.
MR. TURNER-Yes. but obviously some of it you can't do, you can't do
in the summer months anyway.
MR. O'DONNELL-Right.
MR. TURNER-You're limited by the situation that exists there. So
you have to do them in the spring and in the fall, some of it.
MR. O'DONNELL-Right.
MR. TURNER-But I'm saying to Betty, you know, what he's got in
front of us is this right here, and that's all he's going to get,
if he gets it, and if he changes it, he's got to come back and see
the powers to be at the time he changes it.
MRS. MONAHAN-I'm just concerned about standards that may change
around the lake in the years, stormwater, etc., and so on.
MR. TURNER-I hear you.
MISS HAUSER-I'm definitely against giving them approval for a seven
year period.
MR. TURNER-Okay.
MISS HAUSER-I have a further comment. Last night. we made a man
reposition his house because one neighbor made a complaint. We
have sixteen letters here, and we have people in this audience. and
we better seriously consider their concerns that they've brought
here tonight.
MR. TURNER-Okay. Anyone else?
MR. O'DONNELL-Hiss Hauser. Twenty-six members of Harris Bay are
Queensbury residents.
MISS HAUSER-Then they should have come in support.
MR. O'DONNELL-That's what I'm here for. The number of people
telling you the same thing doesn't make it more or less true.
HR. CARVIN-Are we going to table this?
opinion?
Is that the general
- 54 -
MR. TURNER-It is. I think there's just too much here to look at.
and I think we've got to.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. Well. I didn't know if we were going to reopen
this. whether we were. because I don't think the applicant has
demonstrated competent financial evidence. which is the criteria
for Use. here.
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. CARVIN-And whether he'd be given the opportunity to present
that information. and any arguments with regards to our Use
Variance criteria.
MR. TURNER-He can if he wishes.
MR. DUSEK-I think if you're going to get back into further proof.
then you're looking at. really. scheduling another public hearing
going through the process. I think the proof the applicant had has
been submitted. and I thought you were past that point. otherwise.
you really have to go back through and do the whole procedure.
MR. CARVIN-Well. that's my question. As it stands right now. I
don't feel comfortable that competent financial information has
been provided.
MR. DUSEK-That was his job. and if he didn't do it. then.
MR. CARVIN-I mean. if the opinion is that we move this. in order
words. to mull this over and decide on a motion. based upon what
we've got.
MR. TURNER-Anyone else?
MR. MENTER-I think I'm afraid that I'd have to agree with Fred. as
much as I hate to. I mean. that is the position that we're in. We
are determining on the Use Variance. and based on what we've heard.
I don't see where they failed to realize a reasonable return. I
don't think that's been shown. I personally think he's going to
have a tough time doing that. given further time.
MR. TURNER-Okay. So lets table this thing and mull it over. and
we'll give him a decision.
MR. CARVIN-Until when?
MR. TURNER-We've got 45 days. correct. from the time the
application is submitted. after the public hearing is closed. 45
days?
MR. DUSEK-Let me checked.
MR. MARTIN-It's been revised. It's 62 days now.
MR. TURNER-That's from the time you close the public hearing
though?
MR. MARTIN-That's right. You have two 62 day time frames now. when
the application is received. to open the public hearing. then once
the public hearing's closed. to make your decision.
HR. DUSEK-The Board shall decide upon appeal within 62 days after
the conduct of the hearing.
MR. MARTIN-The thought being they give you two 31 day time frames.
MR. TURNER-Right. So we've got 62 days. right?
MR. CARVIN-Okay. I guess my natural extension of the question
would be. does the Board feel that they have adequate information?
- 55 -
Are we going to be requesting any additional information from the
applicant or any of the general public?
MR. MARTIN-I think if you do that. like Paul says. you've got to.
basically. treat it as a whole new application.
MR. TURNER-You've got to open the whole thing up again.
MR. CARVIN-I just want to know where the floor is. whether we just
come back with a motion and that's it.
MR. DUSEK-I think everything you have before you should be your
record at this point. See. when you come into a Use Variance. such
as the applicant has done here. it's up to him to prove his
enti tlement to that variance. and then. of course. you have to
consider. obviously. the other information that comes before you by
way of the public hearing. That's why you hold that. and then when
you have all that information. and you weigh it and balance it and
consider what the applicant said. and you balance it against that
cri teria. either he's proven a case for a Use Variance. or he
hasn't. and I think that's where you're at right now. unless you're
suggesting you want to go through another rehearing of some kind.
MR. CARVIN-The Use Variance has nothing to do with the Area
Variances. is that correct?
MR. TURNER-Right.
MR. DUSEK-That's my understanding
Administrator has decided.
from what your
Zoning
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. ,So we will have to go through a second public
hearing for the Area and the Sign. is that correct?
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. CARVIN-Does that require re-advertising. because it was listed
for this evening. or do we have to table the Area Variance. because
we aren't even going to get to that.
MR. O'DONNELL-No. It was my understanding that we were doing all
of that at once. three variance applications were before you all at
once. and it was advertised as a meeting for all three. all at
once. and I can't imagine what facts you're going to get doing this
twice more that you didn't get tonight.
MR. DUSEK-My suggestion may be. another thing we could just take
under advisement at this point. and by the time you get to the
meeting again. we could have all these issues cleared up. You're
going to have to have. you know you're going to have at least one
meeting to decide the Use Variance. You know that. So then. at
that point. my recommendation would be. we could check this issue
out for you. to see whether or not we feel comfortable enough that
the public hearing satisfied the Area Variance or didn't. I think
it ought to be taken a look at. The only thing that bothers me is
that at the time you went into that public hearing. you didn't read
the typical thing that you would normally read to go into it. and
so I have some reservations about agreeing that you did. in fact.
conduct a proper public hearing.
MR. CARVIN-That's my reservation there also. because we really only
addressed the Use issue.
MR. TURNER-We only addressed the one issue.
MR. MARTIN-You only read in the Use Variance application.
MR. TURNER-That's all.
That's the only thing we read in.
So I
- 56 -
think that's still fair game.
MR. CARVIN-And
address. there
whatsoever. So
in favor of it.
then the third is the Sign. and we didn't even
has be~n no public discussion on the Sign
I have no idea if there's any public opposition or
MR. DUSEK-I think you have a number of issues that you really need
to think about. and if you schedule a meeting in the near future.
you could address a lot of these and come to grips with what's left
over.
MR. MARTIN-We have one more meeting next week. right?
MR. TURNER-Right.
MR. O'DONNELL-Am I correct that the Use Variance applies to the
deck and the shed only?
MR. TURNER-That's right. It's the deck and the shed. That's just
general information. because he's got an application for the
setback for the tank. He's just relocating this tank. He needs
relief from that. That's all.
MR. MARTIN-And the proposed tank is smaller in size than the
existing tank.
MR. TURNER-One thousand gallons less. Yes.
MR. CARVIN-The original Staff Notes on the Use Variance it was
noted some place. in other words.
MR. TURNER-It's definitely an Area Variance. because if he only
came here for just the tanks. that would be an Area Variance.
MR. CARVIN-Well. I guess as stated by the applicant's narrative.
Harris Bay Yacht Club is a preexisting nonconforming use. a private
club for which ownership of boat slips is a requirement for
membership. In order to maintain the quality of the facilities and
update items such as the fuel tank. and provide handicapped access.
a master plan has been drawn up. Trying to market the property for
some other use in order to satisfy the requirements for a Use
Variance is really not an option. As stated in the narrative.
there are no permitted uses which would allow HBYC to generate
funds necessary to pay their current level of taxes. Well. I take
exception to that. because the taxes come from the membership. all
right. but they do address. through the Staff Notes. and. again.
Staff Notes. I'm assuming. are just a reflection of the
application.
MR. TURNER-Yes. the application.
MR. CARVIN-That it is in the whole. and not necessarily. so I think
we have to take it. in parts. The Area Variance I think can be
addressed as a separate issue. Fine. I mean. if you shoot down
the Use Variance and decide that the tank is okay to move. I don't
see where we have a problem in that.
MR. TURNER-No.
MR. CARVIN-Because essentially what we're saying is that that does
not fall under the realm of a Use.
MR. TURNER-That's right.
Variance encompasses.
We've already identified what the Use
MR. CARVIN-I just want to make sure that my understanding of this
Use Variance is on the total program. not just on the two Areas.
In other words. this is the conceptual plan that they want to put
together.
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MR. TURNER-But again. if they came for an Area Variance just to
move those tanks. they had to move them for some reason or another.
that would be just an Area Variance. and that's all that is right
now.
MR. CARVIN-Correct.
MR. TURNER-The Use is identified with the expansion of the
Clubhouse and the expansion of that shed. that's it.
MR. CARVIN-That's correct.
motion, is that correct?
We're moving to table just for a
MR. TURNER-Just for a motion, yes.
MR. MARTIN-Do you want to try and table until next week, Ted, or do
you want table and just notify when you want to consider it?
MR. CARVIN-Well, I still come back to the fact that if we don't
address the Area Variance, do we have to re-advertise for the Area?
MR. DUSEK-I'm going to have to take a look at that for you.
MR. TURNER-I think you're going to have to.
MR. DUSEK-That's what I'm kind of afraid of, but I don't want to
really say that absolutely.
MR. CARVIN-We can make a motion, we can address the Use Variance
next week. That. hopefully, is not a problem. By then we should
have all digested much of the material, but that still leaves the
issue of the Area Variance. and that. I don't think, is going to be
addressed properly.
MR. DUSEK-So, even if you were to decide to set another public
hearing, though, you could never get one set by next week anyway.
MR. MARTIN-Right.
MR. CARVIN-That's why I'm wondering whether we want to move that
off into April some time to address the Area Variance as a whole
separate issue.
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. O'DONNELL-What day would it be next week?
MR. MARTIN-It would be a week from yesterday, next Wednesday, the
23rd.
MR. TURNER-The 23rd.
MR. DUSEK-What you could do is address the Use Variance next week
on Wednesday, and then on that same day set the public hearing for
the Area Variances.
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. CARVIN-Which
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. MARTIN-Yes.
would more than likely be at some point in April.
We'd do it as a matter of your regular agenda.
MR. TURNER-Yes. We have a meeting the 23rd anyway, Brian. So we
could address the Use Variance then, the motion on it. Okay. So,
1'11 make a motion to table the application.
HOTIOR TO TABLE USE VARIARCB RO. 111-1993 HARRIS BAY YACHT CLUB.
IRC., Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved for its adoption.
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seconded by Chris Thomas:
To deal with the Use Variance and the motion attached to that,
we'll deal with next week, the 23rd.
Duly adopted this 17th day of March, 1994, by the following vote:
AYES: Mr. Menter, Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Carvin, Miss Hauser,
Mr. Thomas, Mr. Maresco, Mr. Turner
NOES: NONE
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